"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226bb0a056cd74475bb1f3f567eea3b281\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 19 DECEMBER 2023\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225b14ff88dd4646af91d71d060076e615\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 19 DECEMBER 2023\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226fda4b84dc3f40bd8014a83dd8c51208\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228209ee414e204b8dadb353cb613e3ebf\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002299c104f5b71a469ba1e47b8ee5920f5d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002299c104f5b71a469ba1e47b8ee5920f5d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Almighty God, we give thanks for the blessings which have been bestowed on us. Laying aside all personal interests, we acknowledge the King and pray for guidance in our deliberations that we may conduct the affairs of this House with wisdom, justice, mercy, and humility for the welfare and peace of New Zealand. Amen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223552f2a1dc354242a91301f6de566281\u0022\u003EBy-Election\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ab880d1f3b0b42d4aa7be42f388c4369\u0022\u003EPort Waikato\u2014Hon Andrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00223826a036377e4836922086a500301ebc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223826a036377e4836922086a500301ebc\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have received from the Electoral Commission a writ declaring the Hon Andrew Bayly to be elected to represent the electorate of Port Waikato.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022156c4fa4ed3c4aec8853527fbf1ad070\u0022\u003EResignations\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e3bf45622b4d4523930cff673394a5c0\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National\u2014Hon Andrew Bayly, List\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022070feae71e294c1ba97ef30988397ec6\u0022\u003E the Hon Andrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022bfd6870d434f436487478e94026ffde6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bfd6870d434f436487478e94026ffde6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I wish to advise the House that I have received a letter from, resigning his list seat in the House with effect from 13 December 2023.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022376b320afb4d4ecdace7d98f68a1113b\u0022\u003EList Member ELECTED\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002274cff4edade74b0fa684327daba33e21\u0022\u003EList Member ELECTED\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000015\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National\u2014Nancy Lu\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022c581fe2240e742a097cd872154b6f9b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c581fe2240e742a097cd872154b6f9b1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have been advised by the Electoral Commission that under section 137 of the Electoral Act 1993, Nancy Nan Lu has been declared to be elected a member of the House of Representatives to fill the seat formerly held by the Hon Andrew Bayly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a8e1e3b6332340d3b9d64456fdd8d75d\u0022\u003EMembers Sworn\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002249b095c02b204651a76f7c81bf303a77\u0022\u003EMembers Sworn\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00228c3b767291da4786a502fb596c080e21\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c3b767291da4786a502fb596c080e21\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I understand that James Shaw is present and wishes to make the affirmation of allegiance. Would James Shaw please come forward to the right of my seat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u00228d6f8b7015254bb8a5ad3fa9f9cd2e0a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d6f8b7015254bb8a5ad3fa9f9cd2e0a\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I, James Shaw, solemnly, sincerely, and truly declare and affirm that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles III, His heirs and successors, according to law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022c07cd293718c414e86708383c65d24fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c07cd293718c414e86708383c65d24fb\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I understand that Nancy Nan Lu is present and wishes to make the affirmation of allegiance. Would Nancy Nan Lu please come forward to the right of my seat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022f96ccbbc9731453599483d089643197b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f96ccbbc9731453599483d089643197b\u0022\u003ENANCY LU (National):\u003C/span\u003E I, Nancy Nan Lu, solemnly, sincerely, and truly declare and affirm that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles III, His heirs and successors, according to law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u6211\uFF0CNancy Lu \u9646\u6960\uFF0C\u90D1\u91CD\u3001\u8BDA\u631A\u3001\u771F\u5B9E\u58F0\u660E\u5E76\u786E\u8BA4\uFF0C\u6211\u5C06\u4F9D\u6CD5\u5FE0\u5B9E\u6548\u5FE0\u4E8E\u67E5\u5C14\u65AF\u4E09\u4E16\u56FD\u738B\u965B\u4E0B\u3001\u4ED6\u7684\u7EE7\u627F\u4EBA\u548C\u7EE7\u4EFB\u8005\u3002\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226038da5ea10b455a967eecdbb19e0bd6\u0022\u003ESpeaker\u2019s Rulings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225b76ae0b89964822b4d5009c1d092239\u0022\u003EParliamentary Questions\u2014Answers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00224c492dfaf2804a73849f7df9c8fb3a80\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c492dfaf2804a73849f7df9c8fb3a80\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, as I suggested last week, I want to set out my approach to the answering of parliamentary questions. It\u2019s well established that Ministers are expected to answer questions unless they consider it not in the public interest to do so: Speaker\u2019s ruling 199/3. The public interest test is a high one and should be used sparingly: Speaker\u2019s ruling 200/1. Ministers are accountable to the House for the public office they hold and should, therefore, endeavour to give informative replies: Speakers\u2019 ruling 200/6. That is the cornerstone of responsible Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EMinisters are responsible for their answers. It\u2019s not for the Speaker to judge the quality or accuracy; the House and the public do that: Speaker\u2019s ruling 207/3. The Speaker\u2019s role is to uphold the Standing Orders, which require that an answer that seeks to address the question must be given if it can be given consistently with the public interest: Standing Order 396. Ministers must make a reasonable attempt to provide an informative answer on the matter they\u2019ve been asked about. This is particularly true for primary questions, since Ministers have time to prepare their answers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EQuestion time is a political exchange. Members will not always be satisfied with the answers they receive: Speaker\u2019s ruling 207/2. They should use supplementary questions to probe unsatisfactory answers. Only in cases where an answer is manifestly inadequate will the Speaker intervene, usually by allowing further supplementary questions: Speaker\u2019s ruling 207/6. While there is a strong expectation from the House and the public that Ministers will answer questions, the Speaker cannot force a Minister to give an answer to a question: Speakers\u2019 ruling 199/4. It is for members and the voting public to judge a refusal to answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226c6c66d1d23f470ba9599778ac47dfdc\u0022\u003EPETITIONS, PAPERS, SELECT COMMITTEE REPORTS, AND INTRODUCTION OF BILLS\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022993d84f3cf7a4154bf689a0dd1fd5f5c\u0022\u003EPETITIONS, PAPERS, SELECT COMMITTEE REPORTS, AND INTRODUCTION OF BILLS\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00229809565e6a1c41b9b93c3854ae8047c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229809565e6a1c41b9b93c3854ae8047c5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Petitions have been delivered to the Clerk for presentation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022439bd1312f8645e8abbaccaceea0c510\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022439bd1312f8645e8abbaccaceea0c510\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EPetition of H\u0101pai Te Hauora requesting that the House maintain the 2022 Smokefree legislation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Epetition of New Zealand Council of Trade Unions requesting that the House restore the Fair Pay Agreements Act 2022\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Epetition of Free Fares NZ requesting that the House retain current public transport discounts and expand them to provide 100 percent free public transport for under-25s, tertiary students, and Community Services Card holders, Total Mobility Card holders, and their support people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022c4a5e9860ef640f69983bad1644a89ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c4a5e9860ef640f69983bad1644a89ab\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those petitions stand referred to the Petitions Committee. Ministers have delivered papers. Members, it is a very long list. I ask that you give your patience to the Clerk as he reads that list. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00228863263d31504392bbb4819413d38294\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228863263d31504392bbb4819413d38294\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EReports in relation to selected non-departmental appropriations for the year ended 30 June 2023 for arts, culture, and heritage portfolio Vote Arts, Culture and Heritage; Housing portfolio Vote Housing and Urban Development\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E2022-23 annual reports for\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EAccident Compensation Corporation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ECallaghan Innovation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ECriminal Cases Review Commission\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EDepartment of Conservation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EGovernment Superannuation Fund Authority\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EGuardians of New Zealand Superannuation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EInstitute of Environmental Science and Research\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ELand Information New Zealand\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ELandcare Research New Zealand\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori Health Authority\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EMinistry of Justice, together with Te Arawhiti\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EMinistry for Primary Industries\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EMinistry of Social Development\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Customs Service\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Film Commission\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EOffice of the Children\u2019s Commissioner\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EPlant and Food Research Ltd\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EReserve Bank of New Zealand\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ESocial Workers Registration Board\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ETaumata Arowai\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ETe Papa Tongarewa\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ETe Puna Aonui\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ETe Whatu Ora\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ETeaching Council of New Zealand\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ETourism New Zealand\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EWorkSafe New Zealand\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Estatements of intent for\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EGovernment Superannuation Fund Authority\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EHealth and Disability Commissioner\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EHealth Quality and Safety Commission New Zealand\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Green Investment Finance Ltd\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Estatement of corporate intent for AgResearch\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Estatements of performance expectations for\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EGovernment Superannuation Fund Authority\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EGuardians of New Zealand Superannuation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori Health Authority\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Blood and Organ Service\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EPublic Trust Office\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ETe Whatu Ora\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EPre-Election Economic and Fiscal Update. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00228aaa21e1337641ea8219a4080aa3a418\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228aaa21e1337641ea8219a4080aa3a418\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those papers are published under the authority of the House. Select committee reports have been delivered for presentation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022e5bea8b487434ffcaa7fde1025573f90\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e5bea8b487434ffcaa7fde1025573f90\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EReport of the Business Committee on the recommended sitting programme for 2024\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Regulations Review Committee on the Secondary Legislation Confirmation Bill (No\u00A02). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab58cd7d92f842689fae3bd83958f10c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab58cd7d92f842689fae3bd83958f10c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The bill is set down for second reading and the recommended sitting programme is set down for consideration. The Clerk has been informed of the introduction of a bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u002225a3c4639778456ba91ea1290a1f2c71\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225a3c4639778456ba91ea1290a1f2c71\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: New Zealand Bill of Rights (Right to Sustainable Environment) Amendment Bill, introduction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9de34321a2a4eef8c6be6a5ceaf8b68\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9de34321a2a4eef8c6be6a5ceaf8b68\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That bill is set down for first reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222d5ac3972cce4bd2962e1a1528ce33c4\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229ea7c81ea0954e2eb85f0096248ddd3d\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022caab6fa7d43d463f8bc560a5d792f1c0\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d872386a93234a0eb049200548738c68\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d872386a93234a0eb049200548738c68\u0022\u003EDAVID MacLEOD (National\u2014New Plymouth)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What reports has she seen on the cost of living?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u002232569ca53af64dbdb6b37b9789edd70a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002232569ca53af64dbdb6b37b9789edd70a\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I have seen many reports that show New Zealanders have experienced major cost of living pressures in recent years. Since 2017, there has been cumulative inflation of 24.6 percent, with annual inflation peaking at 7.3 percent\u2014the highest rate of inflation in more than 30 years. The latest data shows inflation remains high, at 5.6 percent, and so it is clear that the Government has plenty of work to do. We know Kiwis are doing it tough after six years of economic mismanagement, which is why we are moving quickly to rebuild the economy for all New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ed2119be52146e39e509d22c497758e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Come on, Mr Speaker. You said that this wasn\u2019t going to be allowed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022419a2f45a8ad4efd9fae8b344d98778a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s quite true, but in this case the question stopped pretty abruptly when a look went in a certain direction, and that will continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226879e2eafd92446fb89de6839f8389a5\u0022\u003EDavid MacLeod\u003C/span\u003E: What specific cost of living pressures have New Zealanders faced?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ab496eb719b452c99afcad40ef63b80\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Food and rent are big pressures Kiwis face, and the cost of both has soared in recent years. Since 2017, food prices have increased by 29.3 percent above the overall rate of inflation. Over the same period, average rents have increased by $180 per week\u2014a 45 percent increase. It is no surprise that Kiwis feel like they\u2019re falling behind when the cost of basics like food and rent have increased so much. That\u2019s why this Government is taking action to rebuild the economy so hard-working Kiwis can get ahead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3de9bd488664f30a293488aa2ea0903\u0022\u003EDavid MacLeod\u003C/span\u003E: How has the rise in the cost of living impacted interest rates?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fce1daeb65b946a4ac34e03fff62a90e\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: In response to rampant inflation, the official cash rate has risen to 5.5 percent, much higher than the 1.75 percent inherited by the last Government in 2017. The effect of that significant tightening in monetary policy is a significant lift in mortgage interest rates, putting more pressure on Kiwis who are already struggling to pay the bills. It is a good reminder that there is no free lunch from rampant Government spending; it just leads to higher taxes, more debt, and, as so many Kiwis are facing right now, higher interest rates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc4fe2b8089b47e8aa4186565278b5c0\u0022\u003EDavid MacLeod\u003C/span\u003E: What plans does the Government have to support Kiwis struggling with the cost of living?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f85185b7a24649a5b7a8c7ecc3b0bb76\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Beating inflation is this Government\u2019s top priority, which is why we are moving quickly to bring inflation down. We\u2019re restoring the Reserve Bank\u2019s single focus on inflation. We\u2019re reducing costs on businesses by cancelling the ute tax. We\u2019re clearing away broken regulations, like the previous Government\u2019s Resource Management Act replacement. And next year, we will be delivering tax relief for hard-working Kiwis struggling with the cost of living, so they can keep more of what they earn.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebd12eb041254c2dbc744969a7543056\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Is the latest OECD economic outlook on New Zealand correct when they said that we should not have tax cuts if we want to counter inflation and improve the cost of living?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220feab13e86084df99ab8f5500ac9944b\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: No, because New Zealanders have been overtaxed by a Government that oversaw rampant spending increases, and their bank accounts have been eroded not only by inflation but also by higher average tax rates, and they have elected a Government that\u2019s going to let them keep more of what they earn.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d8d00d8babc43d6b5282ed04b516b32\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Has she read IRD and Treasury\u2019s research which shows that the wealthiest families in this country pay less than half the effective tax rate of teachers, nurses, emergency and essential workers, and the average New Zealander?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245d42ddcdf304580ab9e95c96e0e80cf\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: I disagree with the member\u2019s interpretation of research issued by the IRD.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200b368da8fde4867ab885c736b05f826\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Why is her Government repealing, under urgency, public reporting on the fairness of our tax system, and pushing ahead with trickle-down tax cuts that disproportionately increase the burden on lower-income New Zealanders? [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ea26743f35a4463a0e24efe139c999c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just a moment. There will eventually be a consequence for speaking while someone is asking a question. Just as people don\u2019t like answers at times, some people don\u2019t like the questions. Do not speak while someone\u2019s asking a question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022979416642a6048f093b37b133bc06d3d\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The newly elected Government is not of the view that reporting on things, and publishing glossy documents, actually meaningfully changes people\u2019s lives for the better, as the past Government conclusively proved over six years of bureaucracy, report writing, and printing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226d7f30f3452f413bbc71bb651a7e97d3\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8bddb7d1ed544e0b9736865ff070e0d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8bddb7d1ed544e0b9736865ff070e0d\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all of his statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u00229fabb12dcc1f438181c9c4270974707f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229fabb12dcc1f438181c9c4270974707f\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I do, especially this Government\u2019s action to launch an independent review into K\u0101inga Ora and the deeply concerning financial state it was left in by the previous Government. I also stand by this Government\u2019s action to end the dysfunctional Let\u2019s Get Wellington Moving programme, and to focus on delivering infrastructure that Wellington actually needs. And I stand by our action to end the ute tax. Could I just make another statement by wishing the member a very merry Christmas and the very best of luck in the new year in whatever role Kieran McAnulty gives him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db76b36db3854fab89bb5a546672a6fe\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not particularly helpful for order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296f30016020e4d25ac2a773eb7d9050d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Merry Christmas to him too. Does he agree with Christopher Luxon, \u201CIn the real world, outside of Wellington, outside of the bubble of MPs, people who want to learn te reo or want to learn any other education actually pay for it themselves.\u201D; if so, does he believe that standard applies to him too?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f666b48fc462431cb556344e68b015ee\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: We encourage employers to upskill their employees if they need te reo for the purposes of their job. We support that. What we don\u2019t support is actually bonuses on top of base remuneration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022461b736ee0ff489aae05b5657364dc26\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: If in the real world people pay for their own te reo M\u0101ori lessons, why did the taxpayer pay for his, and will he pay that money back?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022167963fc247141ca81ad08e18a3c7385\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I think all the 123 MPs in this Chamber, if they want to learn te reo, that\u2019s actually a good thing because they\u2019re actually there to represent all New Zealanders. I would suspect that you may have done the same as Prime Minister and/or Leader of the Opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022186c2f7f223946c695d2f796a11cdf57\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: So why did he say \u201CIn the real world outside of Wellington and outside the bubble of MPs, people who want to learn te reo actually pay for it themselves.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225038134b1d6e4b11b3b6a656b02f5449\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Because they do, and many private companies; people who actually want to learn te reo, actually do it. But if it\u2019s a part of your job and it actually helps you do your job to represent all New Zealanders better and you want to learn te reo, I would encourage all 123 members in this Chamber to do likewise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223889d6c7d50d416bbb197857fc79d79f\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with Christopher Luxon with regard to the Clean Car Discount, \u201CI think if I can pay, I should pay.\u201D, and, if so, when will he pay?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022156f3b48e476439abaaadeef07cc960b\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ve talked about this before\u2014those are the affairs of my wife, if that\u2019s what you\u2019re trying to get to there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbd118764ac34100b70f36924be499ef\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Which of the following statements, therefore, does he agree with: Christopher Luxon on 6 April: \u201CI\u2019ve got one Tesla, a little Tesla Model 3, yep, and I think I\u2019ve got to say they\u2019re fantastic cars.\u201D, Christopher Luxon on 13 May, \u201CI have an electric car\u2014a Tesla, I love it.\u201D, or Christopher Luxon on 14 June and again now: \u201CI don\u2019t have a Tesla, my wife has one\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022353353\u0022 data-id=\u0022d62d468504404cf182736a837b6dbc92\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022353353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d62d468504404cf182736a837b6dbc92\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. The Leader of the Opposition is very well aware that the Prime Minister is not responsible for statements made by Mr Luxon, which may or may not be accurate, before he became Prime Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c293cc834d9441e18acd49cefc1609a6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is quite right. I was being somewhat lenient given the nature of the opening answer to the question, but I think it should be brought right back to the responsibilities of the Prime Minister directly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270b95a6f36764afea3bb1ce5b45ab105\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Will he pay back the more than $8,000 he\u2019s received from the Clean Car Discount his Government has now repealed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022419419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c0426a029cc44e5851fca448c3807c9\u0022\u003ECHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: As I\u2019ve previously explained, the car is owned by my wife. Those are her financial affairs. I wouldn\u2019t bring the affairs of your family member into public discourse, because she\u2019s not the public figure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e31e28172b1f47638bf62dd1a4ed72bd\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think that\u2019s actually a very fair point that should be taken on board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227829cc5f15184fba8cf3dbffae9f8a68\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0978e3e514743948b41819ea42ed020\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ve got a point of order here from the Rt Hon Winston Peters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022166757dcb791469b853680e924389523\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a supplementary question. Much more important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cd6aa715e464402ad0bd2df7a669f58\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, sorry. Point of order, the Rt Hon Chris Hipkins.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f3233228f8a41ba82e5c3104d9ee79d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: The now-Prime Minister claimed that he owned the car himself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e6034d322f94ef5b8176e8ab8a8fe29\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the realities of that are not immediately evident to me, because I don\u2019t have those papers in front of me. All I\u2019m saying is that it has been a fairly longstanding convention in this House not to bring family members into the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248ffa7f4e2734846bd4224e23f5f9d7f\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. If a Minister mentions their family in the answer to a question in order to avoid answering the question, it is legitimate to therefore ask them follow-up statements about their own statements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cc9e17827b24d56bae6fa18ac86befd\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, this is wholly absurd. Firstly, the line of questioning is out of order, because it relates to matters that are not within the Prime Minister\u2019s responsibility. Secondly, notwithstanding that clear statement of the obvious, the Prime Minister has deigned to provide a commentary in which he has said that the matter that the member is referring to relates to a family member, and I would encourage members opposite to uphold the longstanding convention that you, Mr Speaker, have referred to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236c001a5d8fa41fd9eaab2e0d3069507\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a relevant point, but all Government policy is the responsibility of the Prime Minister, and that\u2019s why the question is being asked. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e52c6b4038f545378dba5a4009244af2\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I want to be very clear, based on the accusation from Christopher Bishop\u2014I did not bring Christopher Luxon\u2019s wife into the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ae1e99e9e694744b9edeb9b266debd4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think we got that. Do you have a supplementary?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227096fdb3926b4b038ae74fb99975b1e7\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245660b6ad6804ff3bffd6d3279483215\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Rt Hon Winston Peters goes first, sorry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c68d101453a4a289129f3c2dfff0d33\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Can I ask the Prime Minister as to whether it\u2019s his position on taxation that you pay the taxation at the time it applies, and if the taxation system changes, then your taxation obligations change as well, and not some woke lefty shill view that you will apply the tax retrospectively, which is the basis of the question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222820bcdaaabe47b4a94af6ffb9c74619\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Much as the right honourable member might like to think that the Prime Minister is responsible for anything that is considered to be a defence against the descriptor that you gave, that\u2019s not a reasonable question. So we\u2019ll progress with the Rt Hon Chris Hipkins.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b58dfdd288514252b24bb8bbf31118f7\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with Christopher Luxon with regard to prime ministerial travel on Defence Force planes: \u201CThere\u2019s other options. There\u2019s charter options, for example. There\u2019s commercial arrangements\u201D, or does he agree with Prime Minister Christopher Luxon that travelling on a Defence Force plane was a convenient option?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b76da97093b54893bfb110647948d341\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: As I\u2019ve said today, we\u2019ve actually asked Defence to actually look at a long-term viable option for New Zealand to use, and that could be commercial aircraft, it could be charter aircraft, it could be leased aircraft or owned aircraft. That\u2019s in the future interest of all future and potential Governments to do so. I just say to the member, I think the line of questioning, given the economic crisis that\u2019s going on in this country, says he\u2019s not focused on the real issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b1b3edfdf4947a583bf443d432b66ca\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: In that case, Mr Speaker, supplementary?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcdebc3df2c643f4a0e71f49775b962d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yep.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226df60e2ef87f485f93890b3ae3c0f58d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Well, does he therefore agree with Christopher Luxon, \u201CIt would be inappropriate for us to actually commit and spend new money on planes in a recession, and therefore my personal view is that we travel commercial.\u201D; if so, why has he now asked the Defence Force to bring forward plans for the replacement of those planes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b77e9f519514b2783b5a89a2d149bce\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: What we\u2019ve asked the Defence Force to do is give us a plan, or a series of options in a package that could comprise of commercial, it could comprise of charter, it could comprise of leased, or it may even comprise of owned. Actually, we need a long-term solution, because on this side of Government we want to get out in the world. We want to double the amount of exports that this country generates, and part of that is having the tools to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263d94494b8d74789b34eb99ff0077a8b\u0022\u003EChris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: What reflections does he have on the Government\u2019s priorities in light of the questions from the Opposition so far in this term of Parliament?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b885b9970c443cbada8108374f28486\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not a question. You know that\u2019s not right. So we\u2019ll move now to question No. 3 in the name of Mark Cameron.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e149fa96ac654336ba2ab9392cc4da08\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Regulation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022 data-id=\u00220ac08daa41f34ecbb40d6db495f24550\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ac08daa41f34ecbb40d6db495f24550\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON (ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Regulation: What problems, if any, does he hope to solve in his portfolio?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u002270199d68be764d99a8ce508e36fccf9b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270199d68be764d99a8ce508e36fccf9b\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Minister for Regulation):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker, and thank you to the member for the question. At its heart, it is New Zealand\u2019s long-term disease of low productivity growth that deprives New Zealanders of not only prosperity but so many of the things that they would like to have. An element of that productivity problem is caused by excessive red tape and regulation, which adds costs to doing everything from building a home to running an early childhood education centre. Part of that problem is the fact that it\u2019s very difficult for people to identify those who put the red tape and costs on to them. A Minister for Regulation will be changing the way that Government makes rules and allowing those who are the victims of red tape and regulation to see who is responsible and see a pathway out of the thicket that has stopped them growing their productivity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cee1459b0796461995323e44ecc6b505\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That was a very long answer that had the indulgence that comes at the end of the year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298d5ff2563b3481bb3473ac0a87375c7\u0022\u003EMark Cameron\u003C/span\u003E: Why is a Ministry for Regulation needed to reduce regulation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b8f620d627e462384cbb41f3a123865\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s 34 public service departments. There\u2019s an estimated\u2014and this is as close as Treasury can estimate\u2014180 to 200 regulatory management systems, and 10,000 to 14,000 public servants engaged in regulatory activity. Now, I would have thought having one small department to give New Zealanders a chance of beating that back is a pretty good deal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251eb6af29a4645d9ab23c46acde8edaa\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Given that ensuring good legislative and regulatory design is already the role of Government departments, the Legislation Design and Advisory Committee, Treasury, the Parliamentary Counsel Office, the Regulations Review Committee, subject matter select committees, the Attorney-General, and this House, isn\u2019t it the case that a new department is simply duplicate, excessive red tape and regulation, and a waste of taxpayer\u2019s money that does not even meet his own standards of regulatory good management? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022018de7111bf8436785da40ce95e65a98\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That was a question that matched the previous answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4bac3e8188146efa81b44a3318a261a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Well, first of all, I\u2019d like to congratulate the member on becoming the spokesperson for regulation within the Labour Party. Now, clearly, the Labour Party believes that some, as he would say, duplication is necessary when he\u2019s got all the other spokespeople on the Opposition benches. This Government happens to believe that it is necessary to have somebody focused on regulation, just as the Labour Party appears to think it\u2019s worth having him focused on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f892161ad47b419eb96a644e855af59b\u0022\u003EMark Cameron\u003C/span\u003E: For clarity, does this mean he doesn\u2019t think we\u2019ve been regulating to a high standard already?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c97b6071de340359ca5b6158ff43e6c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: That is exactly the point, and you hear it up and down the country, almost wherever you go. It\u2019s people who complain it takes longer to get permission to build a home than it does to actually build it. It\u2019s people who complain that it is almost impossible to get credit without jumping through the most inordinate number of hoops. It\u2019s people who just wanted to open kids\u2019 eyes to the world, and yet find themselves\u2014for example, at an early childhood education centre\u2014opening up, alleging that they have 303 regulations to follow before they can welcome a kid through the door. Over successive Governments we have failed to regulate responsibly. We now have a Government that is going to take it seriously, with\u2014I understand for the first time\u2014a Minister in Cabinet responsible for regulation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a64d516dad14d609d77b1c90da25f47\u0022\u003EMark Cameron\u003C/span\u003E: What are the areas he wants to focus on?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218d44a38c71242808ef7bd27a990fda2\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: While the Government has not made such decisions, the coalition documents that formed the Government contemplate regulatory reviews going through sectors of what I might call \u201Cvictims of red tape and regulation\u201D, sector by sector. It contemplates early childhood education, which I\u2019ve already mentioned as being particularly over-regulated. It mentions the financial sector, which I\u2019ve already mentioned. It also mentions health workforce, where there appears to be real difficulties getting people who are eminently qualified to perform a duty in New Zealand to be allowed to do so here\u2014and we find them performing that duty for citizens of another country shortly after being rejected here. But I\u2019m sure the member, as the chair of the Primary Production Committee, will be pleased to know the documents also consider a regulatory review of the agricultural sector. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002283a5c9fef1414f9a8544d2540cf3e690\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab47b2450945480faabc9f7a668d76e8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab47b2450945480faabc9f7a668d76e8\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Is she committed to implementing all of the economic and fiscal commitments in the coalition agreements between National, ACT, and New Zealand First?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022e83d1b828c6c4e43a357c2d0c59851f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e83d1b828c6c4e43a357c2d0c59851f4\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, subject to final consideration and decision making by Cabinet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f72dfe439c0a4c898c7eaed671587dd8\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Will the mini-Budget tomorrow give specific details as to how the tax cuts programme of the Government outlined in those coalition agreements will be self-funded?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9a3b7d4da744155a527e0b6fc640164\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The member, along with others, will have to await the announcement of the mini-Budget tomorrow to get an answer to his question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e199cc0169064ee7a0313db7c8edbcaf\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Is that right? Does she agree with Nicola Willis, who said in September that the mini-Budget would set out the cuts and new taxes needed to pay for the tax cuts promises in the coalition agreements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be445e766141419687704aad684b2af9\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: I can confirm for the member that the mini-Budget we will announce tomorrow will set out the first steps of the urgent economic repair job that our coalition Government has under way to restore New Zealand\u2019s economy after a period of excessive economic and fiscal vandalism.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022566c581681d04b4db6f37a506ebd7d4f\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: What is the total cost to the Government of the commitments that have been made in the coalition agreements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229dea80f8efab4e9387d36e0992aa6f31\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The individual costings of policies will be dependent on the consideration of Cabinet, the implementation details of those policies, and their phasing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264d1c91a57a8444fbb6f2e32e35f4ac0\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. So is it correct, then, that the Minister doesn\u2019t know how much the commitments in the coalition agreements cost, doesn\u2019t know how she\u2019s going to pay for her tax cuts; and is her mini-Budget, which the Prime Minister now described as a \u201Cmini-mini-mini-Budget\u201D, now actually a \u201Cnano-Budget\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efee833a9ddc440bbf78d57d6d096dad\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: No, none of those things are true. I know many, many things and I would suggest, based on my reading of the state of the Government books, I know a lot more about how to be a custodian of public money than the former Minister did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022954a2c80b9034b7697ce4d083be588d1\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Housing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022 data-id=\u0022e31d3c49ec8249a798f1f9ebe0d91712\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e31d3c49ec8249a798f1f9ebe0d91712\u0022\u003EDANA KIRKPATRICK (National\u2014East Coast)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Housing: What recent announcements has he made regarding K\u0101inga Ora?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00221139cab47e824681aa26608362b00d8c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221139cab47e824681aa26608362b00d8c\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E Yesterday, I announced that the Government has launched a review into K\u0101inga Ora, fulfilling our first 100 days\u2019 commitment to commission an independent review into the State housing provider\u2019s financial situation, procurement, and asset management. We\u2019ve long been concerned about the performance of K\u0101inga Ora; whether they\u2019re operating efficiently and effectively. Their performance directly impacts the New Zealanders who rely on them for housing but also the Government books. The independent review will identify ways to improve their performance and value for money, and manage the impact of K\u0101inga Ora on debt in the Government books.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223769ccad32184f9cbe9922625d984c67\u0022\u003EDana Kirkpatrick\u003C/span\u003E: What concerns does he have on K\u0101inga Ora\u2019s financial performance?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8e714606e07444486cd34f579fb434e\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Many. Treasury and the Ministry for Housing and Urban Development have reported that K\u0101inga Ora\u2019s level of debt has grown from $2.7 billion in 2018 to $12.3 billion in June of this year. Advice publicly released already suggests that if K\u0101inga Ora continues on its current trajectory, the debt would reach nearly $29 billion by 2033. These increases are concerning, and I\u2019m also worried about the operating deficit, which is $520 million in 2022-23 and is forecast to continue to increase. It\u2019s important to note the deficit has a direct impact on the operating balance before gains and losses (OBEGAL) and continues to put pressure on the return to OBEGAL surplus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f3cf8afbc624bb18aff542376da306d\u0022\u003EDana Kirkpatrick\u003C/span\u003E: What reviewers have been chosen to undertake this review, and why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221fba8356b8944c5b906d258f6941062\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: We have put together a panel of three expert reviewers with a deep understanding of the social housing and the wider housing sector. Former Prime Minister the Rt Hon Sir Bill English will lead the review team; joining him are Simon Allen and Ceinwen McNeil. These three experts will provide a targeted and focused review to Ministers to report back in March next year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc441679e603489ba4bb610ca865655b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Could the Minister urgently put out a press statement explaining what K\u0101inga Ora means or papa k\u0101inga means because there are journalists out there asking members of Parliament what it means, and this is a desperate situation that we\u2019ve reached at this point in time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cfa4a9d080340e69c432ecbbbe1eefb\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I am not a member of Parliament or a Minister who is known to not want to put out press releases. I enjoy putting out press releases and I intend to put out many more about the woeful state the Government\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1289a9f44124873a40754905a0c2091\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, that\u2019s good\u2014that\u2019s enough. Thank you, that\u2019s enough. Dana Kirkpatrick.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b6dfa2ed99040a683e7d3a7e9d96238\u0022\u003EDana Kirkpatrick\u003C/span\u003E: What are the next steps for this review and when does he expect it to be completed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b78badf5aeaa4b4ca59b15403919749e\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: This is a significant body of work and a priority for our new Government. The K\u0101inga Ora board is being consulted on the terms of reference right now, and they will be released later this week. We will receive the first report back in March 2024. We are all looking forward to receiving the findings. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224668c5f6625d454fadfcba2ddeba89de\u0022\u003ETamatha Paul\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022118284085bf7479fa1ac0be8421a5348\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Um\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6ec24952e1c422e8a26efafab8384c1\u0022\u003ETamatha Paul\u003C/span\u003E: Tamatha Paul. Wellington Central.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecfca40c744a442c8adf875dcac4c240\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, just diving for my sheet. Let me get your name\u2014my apologies for that. Hana Maipi-Clarke\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1e59d52683740e19744a0e35a0b90a8\u0022\u003ETamatha Paul\u003C/span\u003E: Tamatha Paul, not Hana-Rawhiti, but thank you for the compliment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022629634f5bea344c59b690dbfcfcaaf70\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Tamatha Paul. Look, sorry members, can I just apologise to the member for that. There are quite a few new names to know and quite a few new faces and I\u2019m doing my very best. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed5d9109bef844539010e05e49510319\u0022\u003ETamatha Paul\u003C/span\u003E: Will he commit to ensuring no net loss of State housing in his term?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022733a6cedb3cd4cc0aaff160ef9f8c2ba\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Our intention as a Government is to grow the supply of social housing because the wait-list for social housing quintupled under the last Government, and there are thousands of New Zealanders in need of greater support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d8d54e33bc44189abf7a02a65700587\u0022\u003ETamatha Paul\u003C/span\u003E: My question was actually about State housing, not social housing, which are two different things. Will he ensure\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f0c450a3b154babac915f5c4cced182\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t do that. Just ask a question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225adea9d3f87459a8bc4ba6b5bcada7b\u0022\u003ETamatha Paul\u003C/span\u003E: Will he ensure that projects under way including Arlington, which intends to deliver 300 public houses in Wellington Central, will be completed and not scaled down?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022846c205bdd634c00ba912e916c05892c\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, our intention while the review is under way is that the current work programme of K\u0101inga Ora continues. I\u2019m happy to have a conversation with the member about specific Wellington projects because, again, there is a significant need in the Wellington region for social housing because of the woeful state the last Government left social housing in Wellington.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224db44fdffdab4765a5aa91442a1381cf\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Local Government\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022cfc276fb075a40a78097e0b27a65c6a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cfc276fb075a40a78097e0b27a65c6a6\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Local Government: Does he stand by the Government\u2019s commitment to repeal the Affordable Water Reforms and \u201Crestore council ownership and control\u201D; if so, will he guarantee balance sheet separation will be retained?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00221a962fd4b20249fba9bad91b944c4723\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a962fd4b20249fba9bad91b944c4723\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the question. Yes, the Government is committed to repealing the previous Government\u2019s reforms, and I\u2019d like to be clear that the key principles of our reforms will be to (1) introduce economic and quality regulation of water (2) fit for purpose service delivery models and financing tools (3) setting rules for water services and infrastructure investment, and (4) ensuring water services are financially sustainable, which may include balance sheet separation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ced90a63f924efa917d2a9a6464f5b9\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware of advice from the Department of Internal Affairs and public comments from credit rating agencies that say balance sheet separation will not be recognised if these reforms are repealed? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7c740f4acca42038e8a822e5e6e0d17\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s been a range of advice that I have received as I have been approaching repealing the prior Government\u2019s reforms, including the fact that the last Government spent over $1.2 billion but didn\u2019t actually achieve anything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9a50c0194004d64bf2e01d15e29b8b2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That step\u2019s a bit wide, so just calm that down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f5a083d998c47f49b6c4ebd1a6a051c\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister then guarantee that his Government\u2019s replacement of the affordable water reforms will save ratepayers more than they were lined up to under the reforms?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8e17b35bd944f7594d34bc7697fc667\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Our reforms will ensure that local government has the tools that they need to be able to deliver long-term funding and financing of water infrastructure in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022527c784cdac8423abc604219010b53e9\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Why won\u2019t the Minister guarantee that ratepayers will save more money by repealing the affordable water reforms rather than sticking with them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fef4bf6b409d440e9d9f8d4f63a872e9\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we are focused on ensuring that councils have the long-term funding and financing tools that they need to be able to deliver water infrastructure in New Zealand. The last Government spent six years and failed to actually get anything achieved in water reform in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8b22d31cedc4654b2a469881fd17e03\u0022\u003ESam Uffindell\u003C/span\u003E: What advice has he received on how much money has been spent on three waters reforms to date?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222731b3bdf91d426997984964fafa8e4f\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019ve received advice that the total expenditure by the prior Government to 6 December was $1,202,062,000\u2014all talk, very little action. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f8259b23d5cc428b803823d00cbcf3b7\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Transport\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022 data-id=\u0022cbdff7b885a9476dadc8f58534361ce1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cbdff7b885a9476dadc8f58534361ce1\u0022\u003ETIM COSTLEY (National\u2014\u014Ctaki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: What recent announcements has the Government made on Let\u2019s Get Wellington Moving?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022fae67034438e41d1b9a5a9b7ee5e4b19\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fae67034438e41d1b9a5a9b7ee5e4b19\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E On Sunday, the Government, Wellington City Council, and the Greater Wellington Regional Council announced that we would be ending Let\u2019s Get Wellington Moving, a programme which has failed to deliver the infrastructure that Wellingtonians need. Withdrawing was a key priority in the coalition Government\u2019s hundred-day plan in the National-led coalition agreement, and I\u2019m pleased to say that we\u2019re delivering on this commitment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8562f2c335d4c33a126330519034a0f\u0022\u003ETim Costley\u003C/span\u003E: Why have these changes been made?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239185875c4f74292bb3b98cecdd60402\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it\u2019s a very good question. Let\u2019s Get Wellington Moving had failed to deliver the infrastructure that Wellingtonians needed. Over $160 million had been spent on the programme, of which $82.3 million had been spent on consultants, while just a single set of traffic lights on State Highway 1 has been delivered. This Government is focused on delivery, unlike the former, focused on consultancy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022807ed8b5b5be422a8f0a22c3a05bb7f9\u0022\u003ETim Costley\u003C/span\u003E: What are the next steps for transport infrastructure in Wellington?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e7711007cf94055b5a3c8a7e6665223\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Very good question again. Our coalition Government is committed to delivering key roads of national significance in Wellington, which also support local government to improve the city\u2019s bus corridors. We will deliver a second Mount Victoria tunnel and upgrades to the Basin Reserve as part of our roads of national significance programme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b880cae5da384bd9a17972cf77f7f2c4\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Tertiary Education and Skills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022734b6ee5acd742e586e2f39c26c8d1b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022734b6ee5acd742e586e2f39c26c8d1b5\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Tertiary Education and Skills: What specific actions, if any, has she taken with respect to the Government\u2019s plan to disestablish Te P\u016Bkenga - New Zealand Institute of Skills and Technology?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u002266e3e022511f461eb7a194669a23a4d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002266e3e022511f461eb7a194669a23a4d0\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for Tertiary Education and Skills):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for her question. I\u2019ve sought advice on the options open to me, and following that, I\u2019ve taken the following actions. I\u2019ve met with the chief executive and the chair of Te P\u016Bkenga. I have met with members of the Te P\u016Bkenga board, including the new chair. I have delivered a new letter of expectation to Te P\u016Bkenga. I have met with the Tertiary Education Commission and the Ministry of Education and begun work with officials on the development of a work programme to disestablish Te P\u016Bkenga.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c99ebaf41a0f4fc19dec1f1abe773560\u0022\u003EHon Dr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: What is the estimated cost of the plan?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c912d5b61f5400e9194a1dd6eda6903\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: The estimated cost of the plan is being worked through by the officials and by Te P\u016Bkenga, but I can assure the member that it will be considerably less than the $200 million that the previous Government wasted on the establishment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfb2fd61d82241309be080317c45d0cf\u0022\u003EHon Dr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: Given her statement to Newshub that their funding will increase, has she requested funding from the Minister of Finance for the Government\u2019s plan to disestablish Te P\u016Bkenga?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e7e0d895ba443f49eb18d9c99bc056a\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: Unfortunately, the member failed to take into account the full answer to that, and that is the unified funding scheme that was brought in by the previous Government top-sliced around 20 percent of the funding off the individual institutions and it was used in a contestable way\u2014in a centralised, contestable way. So the additional funding I was referring to was reinstating that full amount of funding back to the institutions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022053ff3fae98e43fd889ea918e9069753\u0022\u003EHon Dr Deborah Russell\u003C/span\u003E: If the funding is therefore coming from existing baselines, then what part of tertiary education funding will she cut in order to fund the estimated $185 million of deficits that our polytechnics are facing in the next financial year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022996e4f75e17f4e3cbdc3657fde82f813\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: An excellent question from the member. I will cut the very expensive, bloated head office of Te P\u016Bkenga.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204957871146440fba5f2da98abff6af0\u0022\u003EHon Nicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister explain which Government was in charge when the deficits were created?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224646f3495b554a549ed394b83b3feae3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. No, we\u2019re not having that one\u2014nice try.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002254e49e6ed7b74f14a07f9eb0a2eba170\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Transport\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u0022d16f818165d84081890f9230acbc51cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d16f818165d84081890f9230acbc51cc\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: Does he stand by the principle in his Government\u2019s coalition agreements that \u201Cdecisions will be based on data and evidence\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa4dc538456d4084ba029852f24ae58b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa4dc538456d4084ba029852f24ae58b\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. The Government\u2019s coalition agreements set out our priorities for this term of Government, and we are committed to delivering these priorities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269e39ba5719e4615899d7bc706fc2b5b\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: What data and evidence did he receive from officials on the impact of repealing the Clean Car Discount on the second and third emissions budgets prior to the Cabinet decision to do so?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad934ff7109b448d90125019f65e8e17\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I received a draft regulatory impact statement, which I have instructed officials to proactively release.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221efaf265fbbd40ba9fc51f0840067cf4\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: What data and evidence on emissions, if any, did he provide to Cabinet on the decision to repeal the Clean Car Discount?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbed4651d62643f687fb4a4471b90bf5\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I advised Cabinet that the emissions budget would be met whilst repealing this scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022096cda36163049f18e178f84284cb1e5\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: What data and evidence, if any, did he provide to the Minister of Climate Change on the emissions impact on the second and third emissions budgets of repealing the Clean Car Discount?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220cb97b28e3ec444388bdc9f28cb39aaa\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: The same evidence and data I provided to Cabinet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224193c7befe35487fbf6b5cc1d5e26d9d\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Did he inform the Minister of Climate Change of any risks of failing to meet the second emissions budget as a result of repealing the Clean Car Discount?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b4752decf5a475190ab5ca37471765c\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I advised the Minister of Climate Change of the same advice that I received from the Ministry of Transport in regards to those budgets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b8f918119104938a2d3f9cd62ce683d\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Did he invite the Minister of Climate Change to provide options on proportionate action to address any emissions reduction shortfall for transport in the second emissions budget?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226df56babbd7c414382bfaaa53ac08320\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as the member will know as a former Minister of Climate Change, there is work to be done around what will be included in the next two emissions budgets, and that work and advice will be received as part of the process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d1ec78d73af45b9b6a169c009292b9b\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Is he aware that the second emissions budget has already been set by Parliament?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022531a538ee4a24ec18ad08ae2496b0940\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and the actual activities within, which will meet that budget, are still to be worked\u2014but, as I said in the House last week, the emissions trading scheme is the tool that this Government is going to heavily rely on to meet our emissions reduction priorities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d3414560e084be4921e6f60a0d4c473\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: So was there any proportionate action decided by Cabinet when Cabinet decided to repeal the Clean Car Discount?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b5cb81d3ada4ecfbb666a56137c420f\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Cabinet agreed to repeal the Clean Car Discount as part of the coalition agreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288dc3196f4564804bc820557e385f43c\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Did the advice provided consider the possibility that any increase in emissions from repealing the Clean Car Discount would increase demand for carbon credits, therefore increase the price of carbon credits and reduce the quantity of carbon credits demanded elsewhere in the economy, thereby reducing emissions; and wouldn\u2019t he expect a former Minister of Climate Change to understand something that simple?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1af81df39a7422ab43c26e1ad49eaba\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You can comment on the first part of that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222146362f5b5447adb93b7fce822c5c8c\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the reality is that the emissions are capped under the emissions trading scheme, and that member, the former Minister of Climate Change, should understand that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022eb2213b6fd1c4676bf72321e28d6c2d6\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022 data-id=\u0022d08d7be0f08241ef84d2f1ab73ce526b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d08d7be0f08241ef84d2f1ab73ce526b\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What progress is the Government making on its 100-day plan in education?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u00223bea57eeef8e41e39d8ef2c389f6f057\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223bea57eeef8e41e39d8ef2c389f6f057\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Today, the Government has announced a suite of changes to ensure we are focused on teaching the basics brilliantly. All primary and intermediate students will be taught an average of an hour a day in each: reading, writing, and mathematics. A ministerial advisory group has been appointed to urgently review the curriculum and the common practice model, and the distraction of cellphones will be removed from our classrooms. These changes in the 100-day plan are just the first steps in the Government\u2019s plan to lift student achievement, because it is our aspiration to get 80 percent of students to curriculum by the time they leave intermediate, so that they can go on to access the curriculum at high school and gain a qualification so that they can go on to live the life they deserve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c946a5b61931400a8e2f412597f4aa3f\u0022\u003EDr Vanessa Weenink\u003C/span\u003E: Who is the ministerial advisory group made up of? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec43641304b1411cbe131c72eb59db4d\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: This group will be made up of a combination of subject matter experts and curriculum experts, outstanding principals, and leading academics from around New Zealand. The group is going to be chaired by Dr Michael Johnston, a senior fellow at the New Zealand Initiative. To his role as chair, Dr Johnston will bring the extensive knowledge of the science of learning that is required to improve educational achievement in New Zealand. Members include outstanding principals like Iain Taylor of Manurewa Intermediate, distinguished subject matter experts like Dr Elizabeth Rata, Professor Gaven Martin, Sir James Chapman, and Dr Melissa Derby of Ng\u0101ti Ranginui, all of whom bring the expertise required to ensure our curriculum is world leading and doesn\u2019t leave anything to chance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022932d14bdf8534c18bd3614b86cf647a4\u0022\u003EDr Vanessa Weenink\u003C/span\u003E: What has the Minister tasked the group with doing? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266fcc5ad166d4ad18610c12f51434c12\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: This group will be tasked with reviewing the curriculum and the common practice model. The scope of the review will include providing me with advice and feedback on the existing draft, as well as additional content to ensure our curriculum is underpinned by the science of learning. I want to ensure that we have clear annualised progression outcomes to better support teachers to design their programmes of learning, to better support students to develop mastery of the basic skills, and to better support our education system to do what it says on the tin: give every child the opportunity to be numerate, to be literate, to gain meaningful secondary qualifications, and to live the life they choose and deserve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c230069e39b4ff58871b78769436172\u0022\u003EDr Vanessa Weenink\u003C/span\u003E: How is the Government going to get 80 percent of students to curriculum? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229401755ae87d47559a74e6e73772fa94\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Recent national monitoring data shows that only around 40 percent of children are currently at curriculum level for mathematics in year 8, and student achievement in co-requisite assessments at high school revealed that only 56 percent passed the numeracy assessment. The recent changes the Government has made will see our children return to the classroom in 2024 undistracted by cellphones, focused on the core skills of reading, writing, and maths for an hour each a day, and we are working at pace to ensure our curriculum and common practice model documents are world leading and backed by the evidence of the science of learning, to support our great teachers. Under this Government, the perpetual decline of student achievement will stop. We want to see children back at curriculum and we want to see New Zealand back in the top ten of OECD countries for academic achievement. This Government is aspirational for our kids and what we have achieved in the last three weeks is just the start. Can I just finish by saying, Mr Speaker, if you will indulge me, happy sweet 16 to my daughter Holly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022d8831285f9894c41b5a12a8378bb78a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d8831285f9894c41b5a12a8378bb78a2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that last remark probably saved you because that question rivalled David Seymour for length, but we\u2019ll just try and keep them a little more concise in the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228ccd221e63174064a3db14306266be2c\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Environment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u002299ad2cdf909d4a52b4301590665c9313\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002299ad2cdf909d4a52b4301590665c9313\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for the Environment: Does she agree with the objectives of the National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management 2020; and if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u00228f38893349f84a26a833717870ad4c6c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228f38893349f84a26a833717870ad4c6c\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker, and I thank the member for her question. This coalition Government is committed\u2014as am I, as Minister for the Environment\u2014to improving freshwater quality for the benefit of all New Zealanders by ensuring a sustainable and balanced approach that works towards improving the environmental outcomes for our waterways. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf5ebd7e0593453cb4342ce4e7729402\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. That really did not address the question; it was about the principles and, whilst it was a policy statement, it really didn\u2019t address the question on notice at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221414\u0022 data-id=\u0022467b1c252a304620a449014fd5e221ec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022467b1c252a304620a449014fd5e221ec\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: OK, let\u2019s have another crack at it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a8053a920514d5bbdef25e0b37f95f9\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. We consider that to have an enduring and sustainable solution there needs to be a balanced approach which recognises the interests of all water users. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221414\u0022 data-id=\u00224f36ba355560488bbd422aaa561f48c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f36ba355560488bbd422aaa561f48c2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If the Minister has a quick look at the question, it\u2019s asking does she agree with the objectives of the national policy statement for fresh water. The answer she\u2019s given is an outcome, but perhaps address that specifically, if that\u2019s all right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc2964f9c44f45f09d8256914d02dbb7\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. No, we do not agree with the hierarchy of objectives, and that is why we have undertaken to replace the National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management to ensure more balanced, enduring, and sustainable outcomes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f5083a61340454d84bcb90fcfb4393a\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister explain, then, exactly what parts of the objective in 2.1 she disagrees with, and I will read that out, because \u201CThe objective of this National Policy Statement is to ensure that the natural and physical resources are managed in a way that prioritises: \u2026 first, the health and well-being of water bodies and freshwater ecosystems; \u2026 second, the health needs of people (such as drinking water); \u2026 third, the ability of people and communities to provide for their social, economic and cultural well-being now and in the future.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9feb3c0e18d4c278e352818162e0130\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think I have answered it, but I\u2019ll answer it again, and that is: the coalition Government is committed to improving freshwater quality for the benefit of all New Zealanders by ensuring a sustainable and balanced approach that works towards improving the environmental outcomes for all our waterways.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6bff099999c418297530a31cb11cc0b\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree with the objective AA1 in the 2014\u2014amended in 2017\u2014National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management that was \u201CTo consider and recognise Te Mana o te Wai in the management of fresh water\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258d4893094ec47259e27ed132c5c4735\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: One of the key objectives in our replacement of the NPS for Freshwater Management will be to ensure that a balanced approach is taken in representing the interests of all water users.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3e9771a23134f749055b8145eeee11d\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. That was, although not on notice, a very clear question about whether the Minister agrees with Te Mana o te Wai, and it didn\u2019t come close to addressing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ac48840084b47818da71ae6bf233473\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, except that she has started off, after a bit of time, saying, \u201CNo\u201D, and therefore any explanation around that becomes a reasonable answer. Question No. 12\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253e7290505af40c2bad192548c6e86d9\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b8f4fd1d1094975baddaeda38915a3f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, sorry, Dr Rachel\u2014the Hon Rachel Brooking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db70c79e753041a2b84743a136ce9c76\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, not a doctor. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Can the Minister explain the role of district councils in managing environmental limits referred to in the Speech from the Throne, which said \u201CThe National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management 2020 will be replaced to ensure a local approach, allowing district councils more flexibility in managing environmental limits.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230c66d02f47b4248a7164a45db403331\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, I didn\u2019t catch all of that question, but I can assure the member\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a9e3e5a7f494398be94e91e56a416e5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Let\u2019s not have any issue. Ask it again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab1a6022fdf244b5b4a7188ad38b098a\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Can the Minister explain the role of district councils in managing environmental limits referred to in the Speech from the Throne, which said, \u201CThe National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management 2020 will be replaced to ensure a local approach, allowing district councils more flexibility in managing environmental limits.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c01ba6c570b741de9f8c5b6bc4cec779\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you to the member for repeating that. In the process of developing the replacement national policy statement on fresh water, we will be consulting widely with all stakeholders, including local authorities, and I can assure the member that we are very invested in ensuring that local communities get the opportunity to customise and to have nuanced processes in place that ensure that at a community level they can be making decisions that are appropriate for that community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a5e7c1282f004805bc903bbd6f2b5bb9\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022 data-id=\u002297f1799d97c94325bbb945731e388198\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002297f1799d97c94325bbb945731e388198\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and policies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u0022c524105e688b445b83bb870aec3ef912\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c524105e688b445b83bb870aec3ef912\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, and particularly our desire to improve outcomes for M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022953780b973ea4158b6d83b40d19537e5\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: How can he stand by the policy to legislate English as an official language when there has been no public movement for the change, whereas when te reo M\u0101ori was made an official language in 1987 it was the result of 20 years of campaigning and a petition signed by over 30,000 people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227d32a1d0e464bcc939f6288ff5659de\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s just common sense. We want English, te reo, and sign language to be official languages of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022068bb361ad47415abd458cf826f973a4\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Is he not aware that English is an official language by de facto in Aotearoa or is this policy just right fragility?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edd96e29375741c3906f8dbe6e350fcc\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: So let\u2019s just make it official.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e32b8f2a3eea41a5af18c86b28d3aac6\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Why is he attacking the use of te reo M\u0101ori in the Public Service when research shows that public attitudes in support of te reo M\u0101ori are at an all-time high?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bb5360f4e3444c6a5bb24afb20a11b1\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re not attacking te reo. We think te reo is a very valuable language that we\u2019d encourage more people to learn.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c454e672c1de41af824f38790e435b0c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: As a basic legal precept, can I ask the Prime Minister how can something be de facto legal?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f53fc2b8310544a1af519e827384c768\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, our point is that English should be official, te reo should be official, and New Zealand Sign Language should be official languages of Aotearoa New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228be7734326e4438c9f2d7089839e3114\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. What is his response to those calling on him to repay the taxpayer for the funding he used for his own te reo M\u0101ori lessons, and does he think good spending of taxpayer money will be to encourage more MPs and public servants to learn te reo M\u0101ori?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220043b61fe3ed4f42b273e0d0ebd44480\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, yes, I do, and that\u2019s why I said earlier that 123 MPs here in this House learning te reo would be a good thing, given they represent all New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a3fb4a314774c5eac3fd0ed9fe65212\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Mr Speaker, the questions have flown back and forth, but the Prime Minister is not responsible for matters that relate to his time as Leader of the Opposition. So I\u2019ll just make the point that on a couple of occasions over the last couple of question times, we have strayed well away from prime ministerial or ministerial responsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bac9104f121c4092ac44c59d27b455be\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I know. Often, answers do the same thing. So we\u2019ll just take it as it flows. The Prime Minister\u2019s actually quite good at answering questions, I think, and\u2014[Interruption] Sorry, that was a very un-Speaker-like statement; my apologies to the House for that. I think there is someone going to stand up now and say something.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022005b56e5d7ce4a28a26120a4ac29e87e\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, I was waiting for Mr Speaker to conclude oral questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d7479e0f67c418da0497d0f913ac59f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, well, you\u2019re quite right\u2014oral questions are concluded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a654456c5b044cc9986fd50493fc49b\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228dbcfd1f486c46de92dd6e06a9052a3b\u0022\u003EParliamentary Service Commission\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022982c826a51a9481fa5f0df1bc1273c9b\u0022\u003EMembership\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0f642362e36424eb7ec07ffd5e01bed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0f642362e36424eb7ec07ffd5e01bed\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. I seek leave to move a motion without notice and without debate on the membership of the Parliamentary Service Commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ad5faff1636469d8a6439e99fd0e0a7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course of action being followed? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5f39273765a4d5883e1791018651a62\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That under section 15(1)(d) of the Parliamentary Service Act 2000, Jamie Arbuckle, Takutai Tarsh Kemp, Barbara Kuriger, Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March, Todd Stephenson, and Tangi Utikere be appointed as members of the Parliamentary Service Commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002280543de44116492fbfc0e47185101a03\u0022\u003EAddress in Reply\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002247b216197ce44804ab8a1d1059bdc376\u0022\u003EAddress in Reply\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000303\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 12 December.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u00220cd37f59314b420ba74c36138a1ff9cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220cd37f59314b420ba74c36138a1ff9cb\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, can I commence my contribution in this Address in Reply debate by congratulating you and your fellow presiding officers, who are going to adjudicate over the proceedings of this Parliament, the 54th Parliament, in, I\u2019m sure, a very adequate and capable way. We know on this side of the House that you will bring dignity and grace to this office in a way that maybe some have thought was lacking in the past. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThe good people of Coromandel are looking forward to a wonderful Christmas and summer period, and part of the reason that they\u2019re looking forward to a wonderful Christmas and summer period is because it will be the first summer Christmas period in four years when we hope to have an uninterrupted peak visitor period over the summer break. We had two summers interrupted by COVID, and then, of course, last year, after Cyclone Hale and then Gabrielle, we incurred massive infrastructural damage to our region. But I was delighted to spend time with my colleague the Minister of Transport and also with the Prime Minister last week up at the site on State Highway 25 where the new bridge that will reopen this week to connect both sides of the Coromandel Peninsula together will allow for the summer that we have not been able to have for so many years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EPeople may be wondering why it\u2019s so important to the Coromandel. Well, it\u2019s simply this: that ours is an electorate that has a very summer orientated economy. Some of the local businesses on the east coast of the peninsula conduct something close to 80 percent of their annual revenue over that two- or three-month summer period, and if they don\u2019t have access to the tens of thousands of visitors who will choose to holiday in the Coromandel, then they simply don\u2019t have any capacity to make up that lost revenue during the course of the rest of the year. So Coromandel people will be very much looking forward to what we hope will be a good, long, hot, dry summer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EBut the good people of the Coromandel electorate suffer in the same way that all New Zealanders do from the cost of living crisis, from the impacts of high and continued inflation, and they also represent very much what has come to be known as the squeezed middle. The good people of Coromandel are representative in so many ways of so much of what we see in other parts of the country: too much crime, too many ram raids, and gang thugs invading the streets of Coromandel town, heaven forbid, in a way\u2014lawlessness of which we haven\u2019t seen in this country before in my lifetime and I hope that we won\u2019t continue seeing. Because I know that my colleague Mark Mitchell is going to do a terrifically good job as the Minister of Police and he will continue to bring a new focus on law and order and on the basic decency that is required of a neighbourhood, a community, or an area like the Coromandel. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EThis new coalition Government has been in office only for a few weeks, but already it is making very good advances on its 100-day plan. Already, last week, we passed a range of legislative initiatives that are aimed, amongst other things, to first stop the bleeding. That\u2019s really the primary function of the legislative actions that will be taking place this week in the Parliament, because we know, on this side of the House\u2014our coalition partners and all National MPs\u2014that the spending over the last six years has been profligate\u2014no respect at all for taxpayers\u2019 money; a spend-tax-and-be-damned Government that has befuddled the New Zealand economy for six years, and now it\u2019s going to take an awful lot of work\u2014hard work\u2014to turn the ship around.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EIn fact, ahead of us, we have a massive turn-around job. But I\u2019m very convinced and very supportive of the fact that under the prime ministership of Christopher Luxon we will get that turn-around job that we need as a country. And we\u2019ll get the country back on track. We\u2019ll get the Coromandel back on track. We\u2019ll get regional and provincial New Zealand back on track. We\u2019ll get our urban centres back on track, because ours is a country that has so much potential, so much opportunity, so much unmet potential for the future, not only of our generation but of the generations that will follow us. We have in this debating chamber an obligation to do the right thing for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo when we passed legislation last week to refocus the work of the Reserve Bank on controlling inflation and working on their single objective, that was a good thing. It means that the result of that will be that New Zealanders will benefit from a lowered inflation rate sooner than would otherwise have been the case. And when we think for a moment that the economy in New Zealand shrank in the last three of the four quarters that we\u2019ve had, we get a sense of the dilemma and the financial drama and risk that the country currently is in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI was personally very, very pleased to see the bold decision made by Nicola Willis to curtail the Picton - Cook Strait ferry project that had just blown completely out of control and was representative of a State agency, KiwiRail, who just bowled along and expected the new Government to continue writing the blank cheques. Well, that kind of profligate spending has to stop. So not only was that a good decision in terms of the New Zealand taxpayers, but it was a good decision in terms of sending a very clear message to the governance body and the senior management at KiwiRail that, actually, they do have to be more accountable for the taxpayer funding that provides the money that they need to continue to do their job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EBut what\u2019s more important, I think, from that decision about the Cook Strait ferries is actually the message that it sends to other Government departments and other Government agencies: the buck stops, and there needs to be a much greater respect for taxpayers\u2019 spending. Labour Ministers in the previous administration were committing literally billions and billions of dollars to projects that had massively insufficient due diligence and that were lacking in clear documentation or a sense of purpose about what they were doing. Well, we want to change that. Not only do we want to change it, we are going to change it, because every single dollar that a Government or a Government department or a State agency spends is a dollar that has been earned by the hard work of New Zealanders, and that money has to come from somewhere. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EGone are the days when a Labour Government\u2014a socialist Labour Government\u2014can merely just borrow and print with gay abandon and never take any impact on what it means for hard-working New Zealanders. Socialists don\u2019t like it. They call themselves, these days, progressives, but, actually, they\u2019re just good, old-fashioned socialists. For the sake of my new colleagues who may not have heard me say this before, socialists and socialist Governments really only have three policy initiatives that they apply to every single issue. They either want to ban it, tax it, or make it compulsory; often, they want to make all three. Those are the only three policy initiatives that any socialist Government has: ban it, tax it, or make it compulsory.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EWe have a much greater faith in the logic and the understanding and the passion and the initiative of New Zealanders to have a brighter vision for the future of the country than anyone on that side of the House, sitting opposite, could even begin to imagine. We aren\u2019t going to be constrained by narrow, socialist thinking. We do have faith in New Zealanders\u2019 ability to be inventive, to be entrepreneurial, to have faith in the work that they create and the jobs that they create, the businesses that they create. Ours will be a Government that encourages and doesn\u2019t vilify businesses. We want to make sure that businesses thrive and grow, because thriving and growing businesses lead to a thriving and growing economy that leads to greater employment that leads to a greater prosperity. Because on the Opposition benches\u2014where they are back, some would say, where they belong\u2014we know that their ideals simply don\u2019t match the aspirational objectives of most New Zealanders. That\u2019s the result that occurred in the election in October.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EI am delighted now to be working with coalition partners who share our common objective and goal for the future of the country. It\u2019s a goal that is full of vision, of hope, and of aspiration, unlike the six years of stifling, borrowing, and spending that we\u2019ve had, with no accountability for taxpayers\u2019 money. We will be a Government for all New Zealanders, whether they happen to be in the beautiful Coromandel or the Taranaki - King Country, or indeed any other part of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo I want to conclude my contribution in this Address in Reply debate by extending a warm welcome and invitation, for as many people who want to, to come and visit the beautiful Coromandel. Come and spend some summertime\u2014and, more importantly, some summer money\u2014in the beautiful Coromandel. You\u2019ll receive a very warm welcome and we\u2019ll get the Cathedral Cove open sooner or later. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u002205b326e76c66416e906b7f210b0b2366\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205b326e76c66416e906b7f210b0b2366\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Well, on the line of thought from the previous speaker, the Hon Scott Simpson, can I say I\u2019m very pleased to be standing here as the member for Dunedin, a new role for me. I\u2019m very pleased to have that. And, of course, Dunedin did have the best summer in the country last year; I\u2019m hoping that it will have it again. It\u2019s another fine place to come and visit. But of course Dunedin is most lively when the students are in town, because both the university and the polytechnic are so important for Dunedin. So one of the things I\u2019ll be working on in this term with my colleague, Dr Deborah Russell, is the funding of that tertiary sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EAlso, of course, if you were driving through Dunedin any time recently, you will have seen both the out-patients and the in-patients buildings of the new hospital rising out of the ground. They are giant, giant structures and are so important for this city and the region. Again, that is something that I will be working on: making sure that that build continues and does not in any way become a public-private partnership.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ENow, of course, like many places, Dunedin has a number of social issues but it is a very creative and wonderful city. So I\u2019m very pleased to be the representative for it and to work with people on all those local issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EBut here, really talking in the Address in Reply about the Speech from the Throne, I can tell you that I am worried\u2014very, very worried.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d414c02fc208451b9a658c1d60502a5c\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, cheer up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022729a7d0ba26442a096f20498703b62a3\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: I say that as the spokesperson for the environment\u2014and I\u2019ll be talking to that Minister soon, no doubt, about his drastic and unnecessary and backwards legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EBut in the Speech from the Throne and statements that we\u2019ve had from various Ministers\u2014we\u2019ve heard statements about blind frogs and the need for more mining from Ministers\u2014we got awarded the \u201CFossil of the Day\u201D on the first day at the UN Climate Change Conference (COP)\u2014on the first day\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222225d81b381b403c848bd7c3b4db1af5\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: You guys got it too!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228240781cec1d4baeae606269bb3253bb\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and it was for a brand-new policy. It was suggested in the Hon Melissa Lee\u2019s speech that it was because of something that the previous Government had done, but it was very specific to this Government: reversing the oil and gas ban. It was very specific for that, and that is not something that I am proud of. Nor am I happy about last week\u2014that we were sitting in urgency to do three stages of a bill on a clean car discount that is set by regulations. Could have been changed by those regulations, but no: we spent all of last week debating that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EOf course, what a terrible thing that is. We have signed up to emissions reductions. We have emissions reductions plans and there was one thing that was working: the Clean Car Discount. Now, as of 31 December, it\u2019s scrapped. We heard today the Minister of Transport could not answer the questions put to him about how we are actually going to reduce emissions. We\u2019ve already decided the next Budget; what is the emissions reduction plan going to include if you just scrap everything to do with active transport and public transport and clean car discounts? It\u2019s very disappointing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen, of course, we hear today in question time and also in the Speech from the Throne that the national policy statement on fresh water\u2014\u201COh, we don\u2019t want water to be swimmable anymore.\u201D That\u2019s all I can take from the answers that we got today, \u201CWe have no aim for water to be swimmable; we just want people to use that water as much as they want.\u201D Now, it\u2019ll be interesting to see what changes are made, but they were very disappointing answers from the Minister today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen we\u2019re going to have, today, legislation up to repeal both the Spatial Planning Act and the Natural and Built Environment Act. This is very interesting because both sides of this House have been talking about, for many years, how the RMA\u2014the Resource Management Act\u2014has been failing, and it\u2019s been failing on both the big fronts: and that is the environmental outcomes, they have degraded; but also the efficiency of the system, that has got worse as well. The way the RMA has worked is that everything really comes down to fights over resource consents, and that is inefficient.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo we know that in any planning laws, there\u2019s always going to be some trade-offs in that planning space. People are going to have different points of view about whether a landscape should be protected or if we should have wind turbines on that landscape. There\u2019s always going to be difficulties with planning legislation, but we do need it. What we had done with the Spatial Planning Act and the Natural and Built Environment Act was much better long-term planning for our infrastructure. So, to be clear, in the 30-year time period, we could say, \u201CRight, what areas are going to grow or might grow, where is it suitable, where are we going to need to move away from because of climate adaptation? OK, let\u2019s get those people who are involved with that infrastructure\u2014so central government as well as the local governments\u2014to plan for growth in areas that we don\u2019t want to be growing into.\u201D That was the Spatial Planning Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen we had the Natural and Built Environment Act, and one of the main parts of this was to set environmental bottom lines very clearly. Yes, to have some more national direction as well\u2014that was something that was always anticipated for the RMA but didn\u2019t come for many, many years. But also\u2014and this is a critical point\u2014to move all the GDP in the system that happens at the consents phase, to move that up the chain; to move it into the regional plans or into that national direction so that when someone is coming to work out whether or not they might want to undertake an activity or a project, they can see that clear direction, that this is an area that, say, might be affected by climate change. So no, don\u2019t build new houses in that area; that might be prohibited. But in these other areas where the infrastructure is already there or it is soon to be upgraded, then yes\u2014yes, you can do that. You can do that, maybe within some constraints, like what in the RMA is called a restricted discretionary activity or controlled activity, where there\u2019s listed items that the decision makers can make conditions around on your consent and have some controls. But otherwise, yes, you can do that. Much more certainty for businesses, much more certainty for councils, and to enable those councils within a region to work with each other. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EIn my career as a resource management lawyer, a lot of my time was spent working for one council, having to appeal another council\u2019s decision. That was the legitimate way that those councils could talk to each other, through appeal documents. So if you take out all those steps and all those different plans and have the regions making one document for the entire region\u2014or the councils; not taking out the district councils and making the regional councils in charge\u2014having all those councils work together, then that is a lot more efficient.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI keep hearing from the other side that they are interested in efficiency, they are interested in business, they are interested in cutting red tape. Yet all this is doing is going back to the system that we know does not work. It makes no sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EIn addition, the changes that we made to the Natural and Built Environment Act\u2014and I say \u201Cwe\u201D; you were on the select committee\u2014included, of course, being stronger on climate change, both enabling more mitigation, so ways that we can reduce emissions, and also being clearer about not building in hazard zones where we know that there\u2019s going to be climate adaptation problems.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s very disappointing that these bills will be repealed today. Hopefully, they won\u2019t be repealed. Hopefully, the Minister opposite will see the light and work with parties to improve that legislation\u2014all legislation can always be improved\u2014and to amend it in a way that gives comfort to some of the National Party\u2019s concerns. Those concerns that I heard in the debates on the bill were around the use of new phrases leading to more litigation; hearing some submissions on renewable electricity, which were then addressed in the bill; and that more things were going to be centralised. These are all things that could lead to amendment rather than repeal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI am hopeful, though, on one area, and that is in waste. The previous Government did some very good work on waste, getting ready for some new legislation, and I am hopeful that the new Government will take up the work in terms of waste minimisation. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022 data-id=\u002275001684fc684c7bbc60d8f36aa7106e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275001684fc684c7bbc60d8f36aa7106e\u0022\u003EPAULO GARCIA (National\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That this debate be now adjourned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b56bfdb700254864a27faed5bcd7ca31\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022710a9447827d4558809113a4315f247e\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00225f2d30e2108b424db5fe50647e712659\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f2d30e2108b424db5fe50647e712659\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That urgency be accorded the passing through all stages of the Secondary Legislation Confirmation Bill (No\u00A02) and the Employment Relations (Trial Periods) Amendment Bill, and the introduction and passing through all stages of the Resource Management (Natural and Built Environment and Spatial Planning Repeal and Interim Fast-track Consenting) Bill and the Taxation Principles Reporting Act Repeal Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe Government has a 100-day plan. The legislation we are moving through urgency gives effect to a variety of commitments as part of that hundred-day plan. For reasons of convenience, we are also including the Secondary Legislation Confirmation Bill (No\u00A02), which is required, as the Deputy Speaker knows, to confirm a range of instruments before the House rises for the year. Ordinarily we would not pass that through urgency, but just for completeness we are putting it in the urgency motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd4580595125402ebd7c1147dce493a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd4580595125402ebd7c1147dce493a2\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fda6be4a31ab461bb88ad3205431c872\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That urgency be accorded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221b9cf6e620f84d2a96ab5530bffaf4c7\u0022\u003EIntroduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022edae9c04d8b6417b97cb200249562e87\u0022\u003EIntroduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ff0f879539c5484a82060073cae383d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ff0f879539c5484a82060073cae383d4\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I understand it is the intention of the Government to introduce two bills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022c857b7981cc348508ac8a5d60e50980f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c857b7981cc348508ac8a5d60e50980f\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EResource Management (Natural and Built Environment and Spatial Planning Repeal and Interim Fast-track Consenting) Bill, introduction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ETaxation Principles Reporting Act Repeal Bill, introduction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00225e3c1c7e0f1f4d5cae4812b48493f16f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e3c1c7e0f1f4d5cae4812b48493f16f\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those bills are set down for first reading presently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226f51d7a5f2d84aeeac855ec26c437200\u0022\u003ESecondary Legislation Confirmation Bill (No 2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002299d4f191a1c447b0a1957ea1d9bc3a98\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022a8e24185f68f43bd8dc14c07fe7b2efd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a8e24185f68f43bd8dc14c07fe7b2efd\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Secondary Legislation Confirmation Bill (No\u00A02) be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThis\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226cac9fcd-1934-4007-b10a-4b9d301a0af1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022469b70150442457689e836ed9fd10d71\u0022\u003EHon Andrew Hoggard\u003C/span\u003E: Great bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210ccd368765c4dbaaae54cb510d591bf\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it is a great bill, whoever said that. I think it was Minister Hoggard, who\u2019s a new member to the Parliament, and he won\u2019t have seen one of these pieces of legislation moved before. But it is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226cac9fcd-1934-4007-b10a-4b9d301a0af1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b13d980f4de4eac9a617058b90a8bd6\u0022\u003EHon Andrew Hoggard\u003C/span\u003E: So excited.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ec81df75af84c51b54898b1cecddea9\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you are sorry. And maybe, in your ministerial roll, you\u2019ll have the opportunity to engage with it at some point. In fact, I think you probably will, because, actually, as I read it, one of the matters covered in the instruments we are confirming includes extending and amending levies on egg producers and also on the owners of p\u0101ua and rock lobster quotas, continuing the export prohibition on green-lipped mussels under a certain shell size, and correcting some tariff drafting errors, so it may well be the case, Minister Hoggard, that you indeed engage with this. In fact, many of the pieces of secondary legislation that the House is confirming have to do with agricultural matters. And it\u2019s one of these little constitutional quirks that there\u2019s a range of instruments where they get passed by various departments\u2014well, they get passed through the various regulatory processes that they have to go through\u2014but then they have to be confirmed by the Parliament, and it\u2019s very important that happens, because if that doesn\u2019t happen by a certain date, they get revoked. And so traditionally, this is one of the last acts of a Parliament for the year, and it\u2019s a very important piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s been reported back from the Regulations Review Committee. Now, the Regulations Review Committee\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a04f5fad4904f8ebf4eaefb04e2c84c\u0022\u003ERyan Hamilton\u003C/span\u003E: Woo.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d488e1a9334f4f1ea5fa38901fa982e8\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m looking down the back there to the new deputy chair, the aptly named member for Hamilton East, Ryan Hamilton, and I know that he\u2019ll be doing a good job. And the member who\u2019s just resumed her seat before I spoke, the Hon Rachel Brooking, is a former member of the Regulations Review Committee. In fact, I see many members in the House: Dr Duncan Webb\u2014I believe he\u2019s been a member before\u2014Hon Rachel Brooking, and no doubt some future members to come as well. It\u2019s a very important committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e8cd7fb5be04eb3b6eb0b14acf98c42\u0022\u003EHon Andrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: What about me?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237aa8f64c101476cab3c5bff4c14820f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a0102a7366544be84ac3672523daddc\u0022\u003EHon Andrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: What about me?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af8f7ab035454a7a9f4f60bbd56ef342\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Andrew Bayly\u2014yes, indeed. Well, no one could ever forget about Andrew Bayly. It\u2019s because you\u2019re sitting right directly behind me, Minister, that I couldn\u2019t see you, but it\u2019s a very important committee. In fact, we started our time in Parliament on that very venerable committee together, and\u2014here\u2019s a blast from the past\u2014the Hon David Cunliffe was the chair of the committee, and David Parker, the former Attorney-General.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EAnyway, I digress. I\u2019d like to thank them for their diligent work considering the bill. It\u2019s really important we pass it, but I know members want to get on to more substantive matters, such as the resource management matters we\u2019re about to discuss. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022079012a1522d4c54bd7dc054b2d7efed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022079012a1522d4c54bd7dc054b2d7efed\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00222221738812644eb38c960ee771c1d0a1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222221738812644eb38c960ee771c1d0a1\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. The irony is that this, in fact, is the only bill that is urgent in this urgency motion, because as Mr Bishop identified, these regulations will be revoked or will expire if this legislation isn\u2019t passed, which is quite different from the other material on the Order Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s worth noting that this does come before the House as almost pro forma legislation, but confirmation bills are, in fact, a really important parliamentary check on executive power. In my view, confirmation clauses are something which we would do well to think more carefully about, because whilst the debate here might not be extensive\u2014and indeed we have a vote but no debate on the third reading\u2014what does go on at the Regulations Review Committee is genuine parliamentary scrutiny.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, I feel somewhat for my colleagues on the committee who are new to the committee because they were presented, essentially, with the draft report that the prior Parliament had done the scrutiny of. So they didn\u2019t get a really good look at what goes on, and the fact that the secretariat of that committee do carefully engage with the relevant departments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b454084e95164863b0a397e1e1082335\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Very good secretariat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef6b0662d37843568aa56ad155870d54\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, very good, very competent, and very diligent secretariat, thank you, Rachel Brooking\u2014behind me. But I think it is really important to recognise that this is an important constitutional check. The other thing to note about this particular bill, as is common, is that these regulations or secondary legislation, more appropriate given the new legislation around that, is levying; largely levying, through actual levies or through excises or duties or what have you. And those kinds of regulations which, essentially, require payment from citizens to the Crown are deserving of particular scrutiny.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIt is also important to recognise that the committee picked up a couple of quirks in there and has brought this legislation back to the House in an amended form. In many cases you wouldn\u2019t expect that, but it turns out that a couple of those pieces of secondary legislation relating to a reduction in fuel excise were in fact no longer in force, so you really don\u2019t need to confirm levies and regulations relating to levies that are no longer in force. You\u2019ll see if you look through the tracked version of the bill that they actually aren\u2019t there anymore. But if you do look at the other levies there, you can see why they may be niche in some ways, like a levy on the sale of arable crops, which is obviously an industry levy. But we do know\u2014this new Government makes a bit of a thing of it\u2014that those levies are important to businesses; important in two ways. Important because they come off their bottom line, which obviously affects profits, and nobody likes that in one sense, but, equally, funds important industry bodies. And, in fact, they create markets, ensure standards are kept, and are real advocates for the industries themselves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThose levies, like the arable crops levy and, of course, things like the biosecurity entry levy make sure our borders are safe, make sure that our crops, our agriculture is kept safe from foreign pests and what have you\u2014absolutely critical, and we want to make sure that happens. And of course, the export standards, the green-lipped mussel in fact isn\u2019t so much a levy but a prohibition on exporting undersized green-lipped mussels, and we want to make sure that export qualities are kept up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo I do absolutely want to make it clear that whilst the bill comes to the House with a truncated procedure, it isn\u2019t a bill which gets a truncated scrutiny before the Regulations Review Committee. And I must say I\u2019m very gratified to have been elected unopposed\u2014which is unusual for me\u2014to chair of the Regulations Review Committee. I fear I may not last long there, but it\u2019s really good to be there and to see enthusiastic new members there who are really interested in what\u2019s going on in this committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe constitutional check of a confirmation bill is one which I think we can\u2019t underrate, particularly when we\u2019re dealing with things like levies and what have you. So we have had a good look at them. Most\u2014all but two, in fact\u2014we have recommended be confirmed, and other than that, though, it\u2019s good to come back to the House and say, \u201CYes, the reasons for putting these various levies and rules, excise\u2014what have you\u2014in place stand\u201D. We\u2019ve checked it again, we consider it still to be appropriate, and this House, using not delegated authority but the authority of a House of Representatives, does that. So it\u2019s good to come to this House with the first, I think, select committee report as usual\u2014straight out of the gate\u2014first select committee report reported back to the House, I believe, and to come back and say we recommend that these pieces of secondary legislation be confirmed. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022aef824670d7948f5a1ee9e5a75bf7ee9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aef824670d7948f5a1ee9e5a75bf7ee9\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker. The Green Party supports the Secondary Legislation Confirmation Bill (No\u00A02) and endorses the reflections that have been made by previous speakers around the importance of those existing checks and balances on this type of legislation. We commend the Regulations Review Committee members for their constructive and collaborative work, and therefore we commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0c32b7c72fd49bb977a18a99f37561d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0c32b7c72fd49bb977a18a99f37561d\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for third reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002222479e380ca54564b6a5c2aca9f5da26\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad890108657e4369bd7b072cc9e28bb8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad890108657e4369bd7b072cc9e28bb8\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Secondary Legislation Confirmation Bill (No\u00A02) be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002219f8221bae3e45368d4cd28bdee8b192\u0022\u003EResource Management (Natural and Built Environment and Spatial Planning Repeal and Interim Fast-track Consenting) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226082eaa8be5046b7863e121e50727db2\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022c195afad205d45b9947c079b9b91e4a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c195afad205d45b9947c079b9b91e4a6\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Resource Management (Natural and Built Environment and Spatial Planning Repeal and Interim Fast-track Consenting) Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265aa530405ec40d0813d2a267a76cb32\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223aa15a21db204daba059e8b66ccbd8ca\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Resource Management (Natural and Built Environment and Spatial Planning Repeal and Interim Fast-track Consenting) Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThis is a great day, because what we are doing is getting off the statute book two pieces of legislation that would be a backward step for the environment and also the ability to get things done in New Zealand. The National Party campaigned at the 2023 general election on repealing the Natural and Built Environment Act\u2014or the NBA as it is known\u2014and the Spatial Planning Act (SPA) by Christmas. I\u2019m pleased to say that our coalition colleagues from the ACT Party and New Zealand First made similar commitments, and, as part of the coalition agreements between the National and ACT parties we\u2019ve agreed to do that. Hence the need for urgency before Christmas, to get it off the statute book.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe effect of this bill is to repeal those two pieces of legislation and to revert back to the Resource Management Act (RMA) 1991 as an interim measure. This is not ideal, and no doubt members on the other side of the House will make that point, because\u2014as I think everyone acknowledges across the Parliament\u2014the RMA is not fit for purpose in its current form. We do need a new system that will make it easier to get things done and look after the environment, but doing that will take some time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ENow, the reason why we have to move at pace to get rid of these pieces of legislation is that there\u2019s a 10-year lead-in time that has started, basically, already, through local government and all of the various players around that. And the sooner we stop it, the sooner we can make clear our intentions and the sooner we can stop all of those costs that will be incurred by everybody for a system that is ultimately going to be repealed. So we\u2019ve taken the pragmatic view that it\u2019s better just to get it all off the statute book as quickly as possible, and we\u2019re doing that this week under urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EMy intention is to introduce a new package of resource management legislation by the end of the term. I\u2019ll be working alongside my colleague Simon Court, Parliamentary Under-Secretary for RMA reform and Parliamentary Under-Secretary for infrastructure, in that work, and also alongside the Minister for Regional Development, the Hon Shane Jones, who has a lot of interest in this area as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a7468ec1c04458589ae04a23fc3f8b1\u0022\u003EMark Patterson\u003C/span\u003E: Details, details.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283c04067f9644203bcd803fd39eed661\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7f2d8a587864bcf8698ddb70dc07100\u0022\u003EMark Patterson\u003C/span\u003E: Details.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a95838233a334d0d88b4237e990d33ff\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Details indeed, yes, and, well, he provides many details and I\u2019m looking forward to those discussions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EWe did not take the decision to do this lightly, and it\u2019d be fair to say one of the first things I said to the officials at the Ministry for the Environment, when I became the Minister for RMA Reform, was that I understood that many people spent a lot of time and energy on these reforms. I acknowledge the work of the Ministry for the Environment over the last five years\u2014there\u2019s been an enormous amount of work done by officials and, actually, by external stakeholders as well, in creating the SPA and the NBA. I said to them, when I met them at my first meeting, \u201CI acknowledge that there will be a lot of people who will feel, you know, perhaps a little bit upset about the intentions of the Government.\u201D But I sat on the Environment Committee alongside my colleagues as we went through that process and I engaged with a lot of stakeholders during the debate in the last Parliament, and the bills\u2014the Acts as they now are\u2014just simply won\u2019t work. The overwhelming majority of the written and oral submissions on the legislation said words to that effect. And the conclusion that we came to as a new Government is that the legislation would be worse than what we have now, and so therefore we\u2019re going back to what we had while we work to create a new system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe Natural and Built Environment Act promised more red tape, not less. It promised shorter delay, but it will not deliver that\u2014in reality, it will create longer delays and it will create greater uncertainty, not less. You just have to look at the Natural and Built Environment Act\u2014it\u2019s 900 pages long. It\u2019s the same size as the RMA, except it introduces a wholly new legislative schema, a wholly new legislative framework, and it introduces whole new concepts that are unknown to New Zealand law. So it has all of the length and complexity and the breadth of the current RMA but makes it even worse by introducing new concepts that will be difficult for people who use the NBA to navigate and understand. So we\u2019re going back to what we had for the next couple of years while we build a new planning system, and this will remove the implementation burden from local government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThis is a relatively simple bill\u2014it\u2019s mostly simple. This will largely be a technical process, focusing on transitioning and saving parts of the NBA that are already in use. The bill addresses these matters to allow for an orderly repeal and to ensure that users of the RMA have a clear understanding of how their interests are affected. The fast-track consenting regime in the NBA is going to be saved in the interim. So one of the things that we considered as a Government was what we do about the fast-track regime that is in the NBA. There was a COVID fast-track regime, which self-expired, and the Natural and Built Environment Act has its own fast-track regime. So while we develop our own fast-track proposals, as a coalition Government, we\u2019re faced with the dilemma of what we do with the fast-track, because no one wants to be in a situation where we couldn\u2019t have speedy access to resource consenting. What we decided to do, after a bit of debate, was, essentially, repeal the NBA but save the fast-track regime in the current NBA so it\u2019s there on the statute book while we develop our own regime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe other thing the bill does is extend the deadline for when new freshwater planning instruments must be notified by three years, to 31 December 2027, out from 31 December 2024. A relatively simple change, this will give councils additional time as we review the National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management. If I could summarise our approach to that, it is to review, repeal, replace, and rebalance, and that is what the Government will\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225699c35fdb114894accda0b1a77f3dc9\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: You don\u2019t like swimmable water.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebc74a46d1254fe9a86c13010fd2fb9f\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, no, it\u2019s not about that. That\u2019s a clich\u00E9\u2014I thought you were going to criticise my use of alliteration, but instead you used a clich\u00E9. No, we\u2019re not going to get back into the tired old debates around that; we are going to repeal, replace, and rebalance, and review the national policy statement for freshwater. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ERepeal of the Spatial Planning Act is straightforward. There\u2019s been no spatial planning processes that have been triggered\u2014no decisions have been made under the Act\u2014so we are just getting rid of that Act while we, as I say, navigate ourselves through replacement legislation. I think one other point that members opposite will make is that spatial planning\u2019s a good thing. Yes, that\u2019s true, as a concept and in principle. But my criticism is that the spatial planning regime the last Government set up was something that was wholly disconnected from everything else that was going on inside local government\u2014most obviously the three waters regime, which is in a state of flux to some extent now as well, because of the commitments made at the election for which the Government received a mandate. But also the Future for Local Government Review, which the Government announced with great fanfare and then dropped a report on. And so you had both spatial planning going on at the same time as the future of local government, at the same time as the Government was doing a variety of things with three waters. And local government quite rightly said, you know, this is a nightmare to deal with. You\u2019ve got three disconnected pieces of\u2014well, three connected pieces of reform, all going on at the same time in different ways. There\u2019s no coherence as to how all that comes together. So we want to take a bit of time to get it together as a Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EI regret the use of urgency, but it is important we do this under urgency, bypassing the committee and consultation. Many of the issues that will no doubt be canvassed in this debate and through the committee of the whole House were canvassed in the last Parliament, so it\u2019s not like the Parliament hasn\u2019t had a good chance to consider these issues. We had a good go-round in the last Parliament, a good go-round at select committee, and a thorough debate in the last Parliament, and we took to the election a policy to repeal it by Christmas and we received a mandate for that, and therefore we consider ourselves to have a mandate to do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EOur goals for RMA are simple. We must protect the environment but we must make it easier to build houses, and we must make it easier to do things in this country whilst also protecting the environment. Therefore, it gives me great pleasure to move the first reading of this important bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u002247f76b71ac154ae68c9e30c14a3c7705\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247f76b71ac154ae68c9e30c14a3c7705\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m not sure why members are clapping when the Minister responsible for RMA Reform just said that we want to do better at protecting the environment and build more houses\u2014this will do the opposite. The total opposite. That was the point of both the Spatial Planning Act and the Natural and Built Environment Act, because the Resource Management Act is broken and has not been working. We tried to do some bipartisan fixing of it in the last term, with enabling councils\u2014well, people to build houses in our big cities with the medium-density residential standards. But National seems to have pulled back on that, which is deeply unfortunate, regressive, and goes against everything the Minister was just saying he was interested in achieving.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EAlso, I\u2019m very angry that we are doing this Resource Management (Natural and Built Environment and Spatial Planning Repeal and Interim Fast-track Consenting) Bill in urgency in all three stages\u2014all four stages\u2014which is quite different from urgency of just one stage of a bill. We have only received this bill today, and we are being told\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ffd25f7d78a4475b3c945ea301b7566\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: You knew it was coming. You were put on notice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1121782e8e84362abec499d768a10c1\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: \u201COh, everything was canvassed in the last Parliament.\u201D Mr Court, words matter. The words in this bill matter. Some things are being continued and some things are not. And we are only going to be able to discuss this in urgency, today, in this House, and that is not good enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022556d4a9bb76d41e69a684f035c43b59a\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: And the next day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df0032790aab456db6e674ea7b247b0d\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, we\u2019re going to be\u2014well, we will see, because, of course, it\u2019s only in two parts, with most of it being in its schedule. And I can say that we are very interested\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240e11ffd4c3f41fd91595bbc26e33470\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Which one?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022843fd1ff70084cee86d149e3133a4f67\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014in the intricacies of that. Schedule 1\u2014yes, there are two schedules, thank you. And we will be talking about that in the committee stage. But it is difficult because there are a lot of pieces of the Natural and Built Environment Act that are being rolled over, or bits of sections, so it does take some time to refer to those bits of those sections to see what is being retained and what is not being retained. Of course, they are all out of context as well. So that is why I\u2019m deeply disappointed that this Government is taking such a cynical approach to introducing this on the Tuesday before Christmas and saying we have to do all stages in urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI also just heard from the Minister, that, well, spatial plans\u2014they might be a good thing, but, you know, the last Government did the future of local government and three waters as well, and how do they all merge together? Well, the future of local government was not a legislative reform; it was a question put out to local government: how do you see yourselves; what do you want to be doing? The last Minister of Local Government, the Hon Kieran McAnulty, was very clear to those councils that the Labour Government would not do anything that those councils did not want to do. So now it\u2019s interesting to hear the Hon Chris Bishop say, \u201COh, it\u2019s a reform that\u2019s going to happen.\u201D Maybe that\u2019s going to happen. And what\u2019s happening with three waters as well? How is that all going to link into the spatial plans? So I\u2019m sure local government will be very interested that this new Government considers that the work on the future of local government should continue in some way and somehow be merged with the spatial plans and whatever is going to happen to that three waters work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EAll of this is very important work. And in terms of the three waters, I was involved in that legislation and the select committee process. It was very cognisant\u2014the Finance and Expenditure Committee\u2014of the relationship with this resource management legislation as well so that they could dovetail together. And that work happened, and I congratulate the officials involved in that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI note that the Minister said he acknowledged it was a little bit sad for officials that this was all going. I\u2019d say it\u2019s more than that, and it\u2019s totally unnecessary. We heard a couple of concerns about the legislation that Mr Bishop said had been so well canvassed in the last Parliament, and that was around new terms, new words, and that the Act is very long. Length does not equate to complexity. Sometimes, spelling out all the steps in a statute makes decision making much simpler. If you have simpler decision-making, that means that you don\u2019t have as much litigation. So I disagree with that point as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EOf course, we\u2019ve heard that some of the fast-tracking provisions apply\u2014not all of them, and we will be asking the Minister about that in the committee stage. But, again, it\u2019s very difficult to know what I\u2019m talking about in this first reading stage, when we\u2019ve only just got the bill. And I\u2019m not sure what the Minister was referring to when he was saying that freshwater planning is going to be extended by three years. Why do we need that; what are the consequences?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022 data-id=\u0022568cdcf333464df3ac78c36ecf0d4de9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022568cdcf333464df3ac78c36ecf0d4de9\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker. These are my first own words in this House, so I\u2019d first like to congratulate you on taking up this rather courageous endeavour of keeping us members in order, and I want to thank you for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s an honour and a privilege to have a place and a voice in this House, and it is with disappointment that I speak today in these rather short-sighted and misguided circumstances of this repeal. We\u2019re at a real crunch point in time, in human history, where, if we don\u2019t move forward in our thinking and treatment of our precious environment, te taiao, we will set up our kids, our grandkids, and future generations with a truly impoverished future\u2014something I\u2019m sure not one member in this House is aiming to do. Yet here we are, in urgency, with this Government taking a sledgehammer to what could be amended with appropriate and fair public consultation. We\u2019re yet to hear a defendable argument from the Government that stacks up as to why amendments could not remedy the concerns expressed in a way that actually honours both the sheer cost and time that the public and official engagement has put into this and, ultimately, would achieve better outcomes for all of us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EAs a past local government councillor, I\u2019m particularly horrified at the disservice this does to the 3,000 people, iwi, hap\u016B, businesses, industry, academic, local government, and Public Service organisations who engaged in the process of creating these bills over the term of the last Government. I want to acknowledge the considerable time and effort of members, across this House, who were part of that robust select committee process, led by the Hon Eugenie Sage. Within the time constraints that they did have, they went through the appropriate processes of democratic rigor and public accountability, they listened to submitters, and they actually changed things in the bill as a result. If we\u2019re getting rid of something that\u2019s a step forward, we at least want to have something better to step to. But, no, like canning our world-leading smoke-free laws, like reopening deep-sea oil and gas drilling, like scrapping fair pay agreements, this Government is stepping us back decades\u2014back to the Resource Management Act (RMA), which has largely and comprehensively been concluded to be a failure; failed because we bought into the false idea, and we\u2019re hearing it again here this afternoon, that we can balance the environment and the economy rather than understanding that there is no economy without a functional environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EIn the time since the RMA was enacted, we\u2019ve been evolving as a country in understanding our history and the rightful place of tangata whenua in exercising tino rangatiratanga. The Natural and Built Environment Act (NBA) was finally reflecting that evolution, alongside the immense body of evidence and acceptance that indigenous wisdom and m\u0101tauranga\u2014that when we ensure the health and wellbeing of our environment, te taiao, we ensure the health and wellbeing of ourselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EDid the NBA and the Spatial Planning Act go all the way in fully recognising these important Te Tiriti concepts? No, they did not, but they went a step forward, and the Green Party acknowledged and welcomed that. No matter the framework that the Government may fashion ahead, we need to see progress towards a stronger Te Tiriti - based relationship that upholds and resources the kaitiaki role and tino rangatiratanga of tangata whenua across Aotearoa and works with them to protect taonga species, landscapes, seas, and significant places. Ki uta ki tai\u2014mountains to sea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EDespite my frustration at the short-sightedness and political pettiness of this bill being brought to the House, I still believe that it is not only possible but entirely necessary to build an awesome future for everyone within the limits of our fragile and beautiful planet. To do so, we need effective laws and a planning and environmental management system that upholds Te Tiriti and provides for younger and future generations. Sadly, the repeal of this legislation takes us backwards and much further away from that goal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EFinally, if this repeal is indicative of this Government\u2019s approach to environmental matters, then it\u2019s something every New Zealander who cares about our environment needs to be aware of, and I\u2019d like to assure them that the Green Party will continue to be a voice for nature and Te Tiriti in this House in the face of a Government that does not appear to understand, value, or uphold the importance of either.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226cac9fcd-1934-4007-b10a-4b9d301a0af1\u0022 data-id=\u0022fffdd8408a8c447cb2ebb7dad60d3bfa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226cac9fcd-1934-4007-b10a-4b9d301a0af1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fffdd8408a8c447cb2ebb7dad60d3bfa\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW HOGGARD (Associate Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Like the previous speaker, Lan Pham, this is my first opportunity to speak in this House, and I guess never in a million years did I think I would be up here speaking to support the reintroduction of the Resource Management Act (RMA). Spending many years complaining about it, it seems a very weird position to be in, bringing it back. However, sometimes you\u2019ve got to take a step back to be able to go forward. We were going down the completely wrong track with the RMA and then it got even worse with the Natural and Built Environment Act (NBA). This bill was going to take things in a very bad position. Like the Minister responsible for RMA Reform said, we had a piece of legislation that was exactly the same size as what was previously there. It was not making things simpler. As the Chief Justice commented in her submission, \u201CThe Bill is long and complex. It deals with issues of great significance for communities in Aotearoa New Zealand, that are frequently litigated before the Environment Court and other courts. To date there has been little consultation with the judiciary about the [applications] of the proposals contained in the Bill for the operation of the Environment Court, or for other courts.\u201D When the Chief Justice submits against a piece of legislation, that should send up a huge red flag to anyone listening that maybe we haven\u2019t got it right, and, unfortunately, that didn\u2019t happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226cac9fcd-1934-4007-b10a-4b9d301a0af1\u0022\u003ENow, I dare say the only winners with what is in the NBA are going to be lawyers. It is not going to be the environment. We are going to spend decades and decades working out what these terms mean, and the impact of that is going to be a dramatic loss in confidence of many businesses throughout the community trying to get ahead, trying to make investment decisions for the future. People will not be able to plan for the future if they are uncertain as to where things are going. Yes, the RMA isn\u2019t that particularly great, and that is why we will be replacing it with decent legislation that we will be working on this term that will respect property rights and ensure that businesses throughout this country, people wanting to build, can get ahead and be able to do this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226cac9fcd-1934-4007-b10a-4b9d301a0af1\u0022\u003EI also want to speak about the National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management 2020 (NPS). As part of this bill we are pushing out the time line for when that is going to have to be reported on by councils, to give us an opportunity to replace this. The NPS is truly and utterly unworkable. We are seeing councils up and down this country coming out with plans that are going to be truly disastrous for their local communities. In Otago, you are seeing requirements for reductions that are going to take off a couple of hundred million dollars from the local community. In Northland, the only option many farmers up there will have is to plant huge tracts of their land, potentially up to 50 percent, into trees. Now, I don\u2019t know how many of you saw the article on One News, I think it was the previous night, talking about the disaster that is happening with planting pine trees and the acidation that is being caused in soils by this. Also, you don\u2019t have to think back too far to the impact of forestry slash and the erosion that was being caused in the events up in Tai\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8594a694c53434fbffc70ec0307b6a8\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Or Cyclone Gabrielle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226cac9fcd-1934-4007-b10a-4b9d301a0af1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ea36792501c4d87ab7f6ea608434cfd\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW HOGGARD\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, in Cyclone Gabrielle, exactly\u2014thank you. In the Manawat\u016B, my catchment, we\u2019ve had a council come out with a plan that they\u2019ve had to rush ahead because of this time line, saying there will be a 50 to 100 percent reduction. They have no idea what that actually means. They\u2019ve got no time at all to try and decide what this actually means.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226cac9fcd-1934-4007-b10a-4b9d301a0af1\u0022\u003EPeople talk about the need for swimmable rivers. I am proud of the fact that my daughters are able to go swimming in the river that runs alongside our farm. It is vitally important to me, like it is to farmers up and down this country, that we take care of what is happening on our lands. Myself and my colleague Mark Patterson will shortly be meeting with catchment care groups, talking about the great work they are doing within this country. You know, farmers are moving ahead. We need legislation that is going to help us, not hinder us. Thank you for the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd1412696828414389cae6c152c43537\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd1412696828414389cae6c152c43537\u0022\u003EHon MARK PATTERSON (Minister for Rural Communities):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. New Zealand First rises to support this repeal bill. It is a unique ability of the previous Government to have started with something as bad as the Resource Management Act and made it worse. That is something that New Zealand First are firmly of the view of, and I think the case has been made well by the previous two speakers within the coalition. We do support and we are looking forward to the fast-track legislation coming through, the amended fast-track legislation. I know the Hon Shane Jones will be playing a role in that. We are going to get some stuff built in this country. We have lost all ability, we are in economic malaise, and we are going to dig our way out of it with some decisive legislation which will get this country back moving again in the right direction so we can afford the social services and the like, and the infrastructure that we all want.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EI\u2019d just like to pick up on the Hon Andrew Hoggard in the last contribution. I do congratulate him on his first contribution, and congratulations to the Green member Lan Pham as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EWe are meeting with a group shortly. Farmers have got this. We know what we need to do. The catchments themselves, it is a catchment by catchment process with a broad set of rules with an empowering\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022910f8bce5fa5421f90256781098b14aa\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, what about all those big commercial farmers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289904bc23f7345a1849d60c29d4bb3f3\u0022\u003EHon MARK PATTERSON\u003C/span\u003E: The farmers of New Zealand are really committed to this stuff. We know that there\u2019s a provenance story here. We know there\u2019s a social licence issue here. We know for our own families, as Andrew Hoggard just pointed out, these things are as important to us as they are to everyone else, and we\u2019re going to bring some solutions forward that have got full buy-in from our farming community. We will do this, and we\u2019re looking forward to opening those engagements that the farming community certainly didn\u2019t feel like they had under the previous Government. So New Zealand First will be supporting this legislation. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022 data-id=\u00226167e7f5237140869762a81d8ab46472\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226167e7f5237140869762a81d8ab46472\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou e te Whare. Look, it is not surprising that the coalition Government on my left, to our right, got less than 10 percent of M\u0101ori votes. We stand here today enjoying and supported with not only six of the seven M\u0101ori electorate sets but also the mandate of 30 percent of those M\u0101ori who did vote. We\u2019re really clear on the messaging that we\u2019re wanting to make sure that this coalition Government of lots of things understands. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EFirst of all, this is something that\u2019s really important. It\u2019s something that is about our role as kaitiaki that we enjoy and do for everyone. No matter what your individual perception is, this isn\u2019t something that should be rushed, and certainly rushed on\u2014I mean, cripes, even breakfast shows are off at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EBut what we have is a repeal of the Natural and Built Environment Act 2023 (NBA) which was implemented last term to replace the Resource Management Act 1991 (RMA). The NBA provided an integrated framework for regulating both environment management and land use. It was something that was extensively consulted and engaged with at grassroots, certainly in their own regional levels and also in the National Iwi Chairs Forum. There was extensive engagement about what needed to happen. This bill aimed to provide iwi, hap\u016B, and M\u0101ori with opportunities to participate at all levels of the RMA system. That included providing proactive monitoring of Te Tiriti performance by the National M\u0101ori Entity; that de-complicated the use of current tools within the RMA, which is the Mana Whakahono \u0101 Rohe; transfers of power in joint management agreements; and providing for a minimum of two M\u0101ori appointed members on regional planning committees, or RPC, out of a minimum committee membership of six. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori opposed the reforms last term on the basis that they did not adequately honour Te Tiriti\u2019s rights or protect the environment. So you can imagine what we think about this one, which is not only rushed but also takah\u0113s the mana of mana whenua, of tangata whenua, of kaitiaki. So we oppose this bill on the basis that it is once again the Crown ripping up progress that was achieved in good faith; again, incremental good faith, but relationships that mattered to tangata whenua. We have been contacted extensively by M\u0101ori, by iwi leaders, by grassroots leaders, by hap\u016B, by wh\u0101nau, those in regional and local communities, and they are basically saying that the Crown has no mana, and you are backtracking on commitments that were made as soon as it suited you, and politically you have reneged on what it is that you committed to those communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EWe also push back for resource management legislation to implement Te Tiriti o Waitangi, and acknowledge M\u0101ori rangatiratanga and kaitiakitanga in aspects of all legislation. You\u2019re continuously changing the resource management law which makes it bad for planning. A whole lot of people have put a whole lot of things on hold because there\u2019s just no certainty about what\u2019s going on. We need to think about making mokopuna decisions, and look at tangata whenua leading a development of legislation\u2014legislation that, for the most part, has been locked in\u2014and able to be part of effective long-term planning. This bill repeals the reforms of the RMA undertaken by the last Labour-led Government. I don\u2019t know where you\u2019re going with some of the decisions that this Government is making, but one of the things that\u2019s been really important is the status of settlements, the status of Te Tiriti, the status of legislation, and the relationships that are indeed going out on the ground between iwi and local and regional government. I put to you that your fast-tracking is compromising some of those relationships, which you will need\u2014which you will all need. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003ESo we oppose the reforms for several reasons. There\u2019s huge work that was put in by te ao M\u0101ori, particularly iwi analysts. We have tried to improve legislation and make it as strong as possible from a tangata whenua perspective. There\u2019s nothing to be fearful of there. There\u2019s still massive gaps and weaknesses, and this repeal means that all that work done last term has gone to waste. The deficiencies with the original RMA will remain. So we\u2019ve gone round and round in circles. In some ways, the reforms were worse, particularly from an environmental protections standpoint. But what we have, effectively, is an area where the setting environmental limits that prevent ecosystems degrading from their current states will continue. So, regardless, Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori - led resource management law would look significantly different to the original RMA and the 2023 reforms. What we tend to be focused on is tangata whenua ownership, management of natural resources, and strong environmental practices and protections. Kia ora r\u0101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d45278658dbc45298696fc1f5d66f442\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d45278658dbc45298696fc1f5d66f442\u0022\u003EDAVID MacLEOD (National\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. At the end of the day, we are all endeavouring to get legislation that allows us to use our natural environment in a way that does not adversely affect the air, the land, the fresh water, or the coastal environs that we all enjoy daily. We are wanting an environment that allows people and entities to be able to get on with it, to get on with their developments in a timely fashion, while having appropriate community engagement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003EHaving projects that take eight years to consent and only two years to build is absolutely ridiculous. If we don\u2019t repeal the newly enacted regime, it will only get worse. That\u2019s not just my words, that\u2019s the words also of professionals that work with this on a daily basis. They call it a dog\u2019s breakfast. We need to get back to the former Resource Management Act (RMA) and start again with a process that will produce the outcomes that we all seek in a timely fashion. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u00229b01fd4767ed4bd1aaeab8a1174199d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b01fd4767ed4bd1aaeab8a1174199d6\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E This is a day where New Zealand is once again being taken backwards by the National Party and its coalition partners in Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhat we see here is a very clear case of a Government that is putting ideology ahead of tackling the problems that New Zealand faces. Now, there sometimes are things that members in this Parliament can agree on. One of those is that the Resource Management Act (RMA) was broken, and that the RMA needed fixing. That\u2019s why, over the last term of Government, substantial and significant work was undertaken. This wasn\u2019t about a Government doing what we are seeing from this Government today\u2014ramming something through, under urgency, all stages, no regulatory impact statement (RIS), no chance for the public to have a say. Instead, the Environment Committee of the last Parliament heard over 3,000 submissions; 3,000 members of the public fronted up and told the Parliament what their wishes were. That is the basis of the legislation, and 94 percent of those submitters supported the reforms that were in front of them. Substantial work was done with iwi, substantial work was done with stakeholders everywhere, because it was broken and it needed fixing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhat we are seeing today is a retreat back to bureaucratic red tape that will mean that we cannot build the houses and the infrastructure and protect our natural environment in the ways that we need to. That is a shameful stain on this Government in its first weeks of power.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe RMA was first introduced and made into law in New Zealand in 1991. It is fair to say the world has changed, particularly in the way that we need to protect our environment, and the way we need to ensure that we are allowing activities that we need to occur in our country to occur. We need to take into account water quality, we need to take into account climate change. These are things that people were not thinking of when they drafted that legislation in 1991. Of course, 1991 was when the world first saw the emergence of the World Wide Web\u2014in January of that year. It was the year after the end of the Cold War, and it was when grunge was only starting to emerge as a strange new sound. The world has changed a lot since 1991, and what we need is legislation that reflects it. What we are repealing today is legislation that was fit for purpose for 21st century New Zealand; legislation that had the ability to not only protect our environment but also take us forward as a country in the ways that we needed to, in a way that respected the rights of iwi, and the ways in which we could do that as a modern nation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThat is what this Government is repealing. What are they doing? They\u2019re saying, \u201CWe\u2019re going to take you backwards, but we have absolutely no idea what we\u2019re going to put in its place. We are so bereft of ideas, not only did we spend nine years last time that we were in Government\u201D\u2014from the National Party\u2014\u201Ctrying to reform the RMA and failing at every step, we\u2019re now coming to this House, under urgency, all stages, no RIS, no chance for the public to have a say\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa21e0755e624e838ece01989d6a9d52\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: No vision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022188c1ecf17994727ac19db8ec9404610\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely right. My colleague the Hon Peeni Henare is absolutely correct. They are coming to this House with no vision. They\u2019re saying, \u201CWe\u2019re going to repeal it. Yeah, we got no plans. We got no vision. We have no idea. We had no idea last time we were in Government and we certainly have no idea when we\u2019re in Government again.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo there are a lot of questions that need to be asked over the course and passage of this legislation under urgency, because not only is it all stages under urgency\u2014no select committee stage\u2014but the substance of the bill is included in schedules of the Act. We will have a lot of questions to ask about each and every item in the schedule of the Act, because that is what the purpose of this Parliament is for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThis is a step backwards for New Zealand, it is a step backwards for our environment, and it is a step backwards for creating the houses and the infrastructure that 21st century New Zealand needs. I look forward to members on the opposite benches getting to their feet, telling us what they plan to do, and showing New Zealand, for once, whether or not they have a vision, and I fear the answer is no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022 data-id=\u00228230043aa1a844c8b6b57de95131553b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228230043aa1a844c8b6b57de95131553b\u0022\u003EMIKE BUTTERICK (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I speak in support of the repeal of the legislation. It\u2019s overly complex and will undoubtedly add another further burden to businesses struggling to get ahead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003EI find that it\u2019s absolutely staggering that the Labour Government managed to introduce even more bureaucracy to a system already overburdened with bureaucracy, red tape, and weight. Even more red tape will strangle provincial electorates like the Wairarapa electorate, and I know that businesses in the Wairarapa electorate will be delighted that this red tape will be removed and that this Government will introduce new resource management legislation by the end of the term that will be far more amenable to progress. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u002227e7db1b1aa641448216abd4c4786379\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227e7db1b1aa641448216abd4c4786379\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Thank you very much for the opportunity to stand and speak in the first reading of the Resource Management (Natural and Built Environment and Spatial Planning Repeal and Interim Fast-track Consenting) Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI was heartened by the contribution made by my colleague the Hon Dr Megan Woods. I reflect back to 1991 when an 11-year-old Peeni Henare watched the All Blacks lose to Australia in the Rugby World Cup, an 11-year-old Peeni Henare watched the Kiwis beat the Kangaroos in Melbourne for the first time ever, and a young 11-year-old was preparing to go into the form 2 class of one Hon Kelvin Davis. That was a long time ago, and by God has the world changed\u2014and thankfully so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWhat we\u2019ve seen in the time since the Resource Management Act (RMA) is a clear agreement in this country that it wasn\u2019t fit for purpose, that it did not work, that despite the good intentions in the original RMA bill, it did not work. Multiple Governments over that time have tried to make changes to the RMA. Many have tried and many have failed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EUnder the past Labour Government, we were able to make sure that not only did we have a piece of legislation considered by the House but, more importantly, that piece of legislation was consulted on broadly and right across this country. We spoke to experts, we spoke to the people who will directly be impacted by the RMA, we spoke to iwi, we spoke to hap\u016B. We made sure that all of this country\u2019s voices were heard on the work done on the repeal of the RMA under the Labour Government and the establishment of the Natural and Built Environment Act and the Spatial Planning Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI\u2019m really disheartened that this particular Government has come here today having not consulted with any of them. What I know we\u2019ll hear from the other side of the House is, \u201COh, well, we were given a mandate at the election.\u201D But that doesn\u2019t mean that they\u2019ve been out to consult with iwi\u2014and many on that side of the House I\u2019ve heard speak on the Treaty settlement bills in this House and say how good it is that now iwi find a seat at the table, that iwi will have a voice in local government and central government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ENow, we will be putting the acid on this Government to make sure that those particular pieces of legislation are upheld; that the intent and the spirit in which M\u0101ori and hap\u016B in particular have approached these particular pieces of legislation are upheld. We will be putting the acid on this Government to make sure that all of the voices are heard in this particular process. It\u2019s important because, as my colleague has already mentioned, there is no vision. We\u2019ve only been told that they\u2019ll repeal it and then we\u2019ll look towards seeing what we have to do then. They don\u2019t know the size of the undertaking that\u2019s required for something so significant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI look across the other side of the House and I see the member for Tukituki. The Havelock North inquiry into drinking water that took place and actually cost lives in this country was a big part of making sure that when we look towards the resource management in this country, we have a bill and a piece of legislation that actually looks after the interests of our people. What\u2019s happening here is the repeal of a hard-fought piece of legislation that makes sure that the good wh\u0101nau in Havelock North, in Tukituki and wh\u0101nau right across this country know that the resource management in their area is done to a standard that they deserve, and that their interests are also considered at the same time as the commercial interests that are driving this particular bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d868740f886a4931b8419c4f1aed5734\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: Come back to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225296dc4442604e49a8af7e3b69261427\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: And while that member might sit there and yell, \u201CCome back to the bill\u201D, I\u2019m going to be telling that member we\u2019ll be putting the acid on him to make sure that all of the repeal that\u2019s been put through, in this particular instance, is going to be run through the wringer by this Opposition. We are strong and clear on knowing what our people want out there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EMy final bit to this contribution is to say it\u2019s quite easy when you look towards such a rushed piece of work. All you do is follow the money and you\u2019ll follow where the money leads to. It leads to a Government that is, purely on ideology, repealing a piece of legislation that actually was hard-fought for by this entire country. I will be sure\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246dc92a57d0640ec862c7c9579193fc8\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: No, it wasn\u2019t. It was overwhelmingly rejected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e454ed3efc5842c8918e895684874bc5\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: I will be sure to, for the benefit of Mr Court here, because I know in the last term of this Parliament, he stood here and begged for tikanga lessons from this House. Well, he\u2019s going to get one today when we go through this bill, and I encourage him to stay here, and all the members on that side, while we run this particular bill through the legislation wringer and ensure that the voices of our people are heard. Mr Speaker, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002262c188d9084b4b339cc57a902279860c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Resource Management (Natural and Built Environment and Spatial Planning Repeal and Interim Fast-track Consenting) Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000469\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002203c4ce5d70d44deba91e18bf2c3a855c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002203c4ce5d70d44deba91e18bf2c3a855c\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for second reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225cd77ad529d34e5eb085df074a07472d\u0022\u003ESecond Reading \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u002278d9f011c6e04317b385902ae40cc5c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002278d9f011c6e04317b385902ae40cc5c3\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Resource Management (Natural and Built Environment and Spatial Planning Repeal and Interim Fast-track Consenting) Bill be now read a second time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ENot a lot has changed from when I moved the first reading of this bill, some 50 minutes ago. Apparently we\u2019re going to get a tikanga lesson from the Hon Peeni Henare. That\u2019ll be very interesting, I\u2019m looking forward to that, as he apparently stands up for his people. Actually, Mr Henare will find\u2014if he hasn\u2019t already discovered this\u2014the law is for all, not just his people or our people, or Labour Party people, or National Party people, or M\u0101ori people, or Pasifika people. The law is for all. That\u2019s actually the way Parliament works. He\u2019s about to get the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c493657e6f634d718969b4d9f0d459ee\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Treaty clauses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241e439da0d7641c29515526066e94227\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, the Treaty\u2014oh, yeah, yeah. I\u2019m happy to have a conversation about the Treaty clause, because there\u2019s a Treaty clause in this, there\u2019s a Treaty clause in the Resource Management Act (RMA), and there\u2019s a Treaty clause in the Natural and Built Environment Act (NBA). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re getting rid of the NBA and we\u2019re going back to the RMA 1991. Tell you what we are getting rid of: the amorphous and unclear legal term in relation to te Oranga o te Taiao, which would have caused chaos through the judicial system and the council planning system as everyone navigating the new regime worked out what\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ea5c3fa7fe64f348259f23e34aceba7\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: The High Court found a way through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279ef74206e8042729746c5dd6f1cd97c\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022738f40c2556e4deab044876fd05643f6\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: The High Court found a way through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e70d0f503804af688ded06d337329e4\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, OK. Right. Well, firstly\u2014I mean, that is not true. Secondly\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022face125993a440cd9ecc42c96608d666\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: On tikanga, it\u2019s true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a5fc6386301430c97d92a8ada9afbfc\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, yeah, I mean, it\u2019s a wee way away from the debate, the issue of tikanga. But the point I\u2019m making is the correct one, which is that when you introduce an unclear and new legal term into something as difficult and as complicated as planning, you need to know what you are doing, and the last Government did not know what they were doing with this. That is why many legal experts who have looked at this issue have made that precise point, which is that the RMA is guilty of many things and there are many issues with it, but, to some extent, people know where they stand. So they know what the Treaty clause in the current RMA means, they know how it is interpreted through the courts, and they know how it is interpreted through the various council planning documents that fall within the hierarchy of the RMA. There is well-settled case law and jurisprudence on what the Treaty clause in that legislation means. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe NBA strengthened the Treaty clause in a way that would have had unclear outcomes and, most importantly, it introduced a new legal term which would have ended up going all the way through to the Supreme Court before anyone knew what it would mean and what it would have meant in practice. In the meantime, people who actually want to do stuff in this country and also protect the environment would have been left unclear as to what the legal ramifications of that Act were.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo Parliament, through the repeal legislation that we are now undertaking, is going back to the status quo ante so that we can have a proper and thorough look at it. I questioned the Minister for the Environment during the passage of the NBA bill in the last Parliament, and the answers were, as I\u2019m sure Mr Court would agree with me, wholly inadequate as to what the implication was of putting in place the phrase \u201Cte Oranga o te Taiao\u201D and asking all decision makers pursuant to the NBA to uphold it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe other thing that we are unpicking and doing away with is the subordination of everything to the protection of the natural environment. Our view, on the Government benches, is that the balance in the NBA was wrong. We canvassed, at length, during the first reading and second reading of the NBA in the last Parliament, exactly the problems with that. Look, reasonable people would disagree on that balance. But we took to the election a proposal to repeal these Acts by Christmas, and we are doing so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIt was interesting to listen to Megan Woods\u2019 speech, the former Minister of Energy and Resources, because one of the notable things about the NBA was that the renewable energy sector was vociferous in their opposition to the NBA. Now, everyone in this Parliament, I think, acknowledges that we need more renewable energy. It\u2019s going to be one of the key ways we meet our climate goals, our net zero commitments, and also, frankly, grow the economy while decarbonising it at the same time. That is the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a77aa37837f443db54ec56756364132\u0022\u003EScott Willis\u003C/span\u003E: So why kill the Clean Car Discount?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215b9dd73e6584863bf00d876a9e494c9\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb15f48d64b9486abd641c4393e71150\u0022\u003EScott Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Why kill the Clean Car Discount? That\u2019s demand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227ef49986ff34730883a8e4a6c4edfe5\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, because\u2014we\u2019ve been through this so many times. The Clean Car Discount is a reverse Robin Hood scheme. It makes people who find it hard to transition away from fossil fuel - burning cars\u2014tradies and farmers\u2014pay more and it recycles that money to people who can afford to buy Teslas. In the last two years that it has been operating, $100 million has been paid to Tesla owners\u2014paid for by tradies and farmers. That is stupid. I\u2019m sorry; that is a dumb idea. And it does not lower emissions\u2014that\u2019s the other thing. The Greens have got to get it through their heads how the emissions trading scheme works. There is a cap on emissions\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207d0004576184bb095f97572807984e0\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, Mr Bishop, the trouble with having an \u201Cin and out\u201D across the House is you can sort of tend to get away from the bill. Can we come back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d363731f1d5942d89cc521397bf0b452\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: OK. Yeah, no, fair enough. Well, I was just responding to an interjection. But, you know, we\u2019ll come back to that in due course.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EI was making a point about renewable energy and the vociferous opposition from the energy sector. The Wind Energy Association turned up to the select committee and they were pretty critical of the bill. I said, very directly, \u201CWill it be easier or harder to build a wind farm if this bill passes?\u201D And they said it would be harder. Well, that fails the test, surely, of protecting the environment and growing the economy and also growing renewable electricity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EContact Energy turned up\u2014and, you know, members will have their views about private electricity and all the rest of it, but the reality is that they\u2019re a major player in the electricity sector. They own a significant number of generating assets around the country\u2014by the way, without any taxpayer dollars going into it; it\u2019s a privately owned company, 100 percent privately owned. So the capital that\u2019s invested into the electricity market, the taxpayer gets for free, in that sense. Anyway, I said to them, \u201CWell, what do you think about the bill?\u201D And the Contact Energy submitter said, \u201CThis bill\u201D\u2014which is now the Act we\u2019re repealing\u2014\u201Cis the single biggest barrier to decarbonisation of the New Zealand economy.\u201D The single biggest barrier, because the reality is that our planning laws have a significant impact on how easy it is to get renewable energy up and running.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ETo take a simple example, the West Wind wind farm at M\u0101kara\u2014great wind farm; some of the best wind in the world in Wellington, as all Wellingtonians know, about a 43 to 44 percent capacity factor. It took two years to build it, eight years to consent it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe Wair\u0101kei Power Station, which has been generating clean\u2014well, relatively clean\u2014renewable baseload energy\u2014goes like the clappers, geothermal energy, baseload power, straight into the grid\u2014been going since the 1950s. It took them nine years\u2014not to consent the operation of it in the 1950s but to reconsent it so the thing could keep operating. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo we need to make it easier to build wind farms. We need to make it easier to build more hydro. We need to make it easier to build solar, which is becoming increasingly economic. We need to make it easier to build more geothermal, and that means smashing through the regulatory red tape that holds our energy system back from decarbonising. There are billions and billions of dollars of capital waiting to be deployed into New Zealand because of our enormous renewable energy endowment that New Zealand is blessed with. What we need to do is allow that capital to flow. The capital will not flow when people are faced with shorter consent times, like this Act provides; legal uncertainty about how they will get a consent; amorphous legal phrases that they will have to navigate and appeal through the courts and send up to the Supreme Court over nine long successive\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b5ebc01149c42ec8ca12be2b9f21be4\u0022\u003EScott Willis\u003C/span\u003E: How will you stop them sitting on consents?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220912baa6e2d14915a8d8643817f6b4f4\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: What was that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c43a9eb7b54440a6bc9c5d6b957abcc6\u0022\u003EScott Willis\u003C/span\u003E: How will you stop them sitting on consents and not building?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022003bbf78a41b421f8db3ae9417283f15\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: The member again does not understand markets\u2014the member just does not understand. Firstly, he doesn\u2019t understand the emissions trading scheme; secondly, he doesn\u2019t understand the electricity market, right? So, over time, the price of electricity is going to rise and more and more investors will invest in order to make a return from the electricity market. That is the way the market works. The emissions trading scheme sets a price on carbon; that price will rise over time. Renewable energy is already economic and will become more and more economic. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EOver time, if we get the system properly set up and well regulated and we let price signals work, we will exit Huntly from coal\u2014and the last Government imported three times more coal than the Government before it, because they stuffed the market. And if we get rid of the regulatory barriers like Lake Onslow, which the last Government was obsessed with, which hung over the electricity sector for four years and people were not prepared to invest\u2014getting rid of all of that will decarbonise the economy and grow the economy at the same time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EBut the key point is this: you\u2019ve got to get the planning regime right. This Act that we are repealing was a step backwards for that and that\u2019s why we\u2019re repealing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u002266c2037f035e44f88437300ca5beb62a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002266c2037f035e44f88437300ca5beb62a\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Sorry, Mr Speaker, I did make a call, I promise, but the House was rather rowdy. That was an interesting speech from the Minister there about his frustrations with the consenting of renewable energy. I agree. Renewable energy is very important for New Zealand, and we should be able to consent it in the appropriate places in a much faster way, in a much better way than what happens under the Resource Management Act (RMA). But what this bill does is it repeals this new legislation that would be helpful, and goes back to the RMA. The examples that the Minister gave were decisions made under the Resource Management Act (RMA), which is what we are going back to with the repeal of this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI also then heard from the Minister something I\u2019ve heard many times before, and that is that he did sit in on some select committees and hear some submissions where people made negative comments about the bill. With all the kindness of my heart, I\u2019m pretty sure that the select committee report does not have the Hon Chris Bishop\u2019s name on it, because he was a part of that committee for a short time and he did attend select committee meetings, and that\u2019s all on camera\u2014we can all see that\u2014and of course he\u2019s always a very engaged member as well. But he was not there when the select committee was going through the analysis of the submissions and making the amendments to the bills. Because, of course, nobody on that select committee wanted to frustrate renewable energy that might be more easily passed under the RMA than this new legislation. That is not what the committee was interested in at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EOf course, there were many amendments to the bills and, as I said in my first reading speech, part of the structure of this whole legislative change was that decisions are made up the chain rather than at the consenting stage. So the point of this legislation is to do better. And I totally refute the statement made by one of the newer members to the Parliament, the Hon Andrew Hoggard, I think it was, who said there\u2019s going to be more jobs for lawyers with this new legislation. The point of moving things up the chain is that you don\u2019t have all the lawyers and planners involved at the consenting stage. So I very much disagree with that point as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWe heard also the Minister saying there that there were many new terms\u2014and this is something that I agree was canvassed in the last Parliament; I do not disagree with that. And he said there\u2019s words or phrases like te Oranga o te Taiao and nobody knows what it means and it will result in a whole lot of court action. But, of course, that was a point that was raised in submissions as well, and it was very purposeful to include the purpose of the Act being to uphold te Oranga o te Taiao. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EGiven the debates that happened in that select committee, the select committee then decided to define what that meant. So section 3 of the Natural and Built Environment Act talks about the purpose of the Act and te Oranga o te Taiao means all of the following: \u201C(a) the health of the natural environment; and (b) the relationship between the health of the natural environment and its capacity to sustain life; and (c) the relationship between the health of the natural environment and the health and well-being of people and communities; and (d) the interconnectedness of all parts of the environment\u2014\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f265b99b37be4d4d9ef1baa15cce2704\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: How is somebody supposed to make a decision with all of that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc6ba93f6ac1473693e9431142077cc6\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014\u201Cand (e) the relationship between iwi and hap\u016B and te Taiao that is based on whakapapa.\u201D Now, then there is at section 3A the means for achieving the purpose of the Act, because I hear Mr Court call out and say, \u201CWell, how do we know how to use it?\u201D That was why section 3A was included. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ENow, these are new terms, and I don\u2019t disagree with the fact that they are new terms\u2014[Interruption] And I hear the noise in the Chamber at the moment\u2014some in support of the new terms and some against the new terms. But the point is that if this is your fundamental problem with the huge amount of work that went into both the Spatial Planning Act and the Natural and Built Environment Act, then those things can be reviewed. And it would be possible to go back\u2014if that was the thing that you hated the most about this legislation\u2014to the purpose of the RMA, which is sustainable management, without undoing all the work that went into trying to change the system so that those bigger decisions are made further up the chain so that we can have a more efficient resource management system, and one with clear environmental bottom lines.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve also heard that there\u2019s going to be changes to the national policy statement on fresh water, and I have not yet seen where this is in the bill\u2014of course, we\u2019ve only just got the bill today\u2014so we will be asking questions about that. But I\u2019ve heard the other side laugh about swimmable water as if it\u2019s a meme or something. This is a critical change between national policy statements made under previous National Governments and what Labour campaigned on in 2017, which is that we need our water to be swimmable. This is what people in New Zealand very much care about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI also heard from the Hon Mark Patterson that we\u2019re going to get stuff built and something about digging our way out of an economic malaise. This troubles me greatly. I\u2019m not sure how going back to the RMA is going to do this. I presume that he means that because the fast-tracking provisions, or some of them, are not being repealed from the Natural and Built Environment Act, we\u2019re just going to see diggers out all over the country, and that seems to have no regard to our environment and our biodiversity crisis that we have in this country. I don\u2019t know how it relates to climate change either.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve also heard that there was some speculation or some assertions that the farming communities were totally opposed to this new legislation and want to go back to the RMA and just want to do things their way, but when I go and talk to farmers, they are often worried about what the bigger commercial farmer across the road might be doing and they accept that there is a need for regulations. Of course, all regulations need to be sensible regulations and this also applies to our exports as well. Our trading partners are very interested in the fact that we have good environmental legislation and we need to continue with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve also heard in the Speech from the Throne that \u201CThe Natural and Built Environment and Spatial Planning Acts will be repealed and replaced with genuine reform that will make it easier to build.\u201D Again, I\u2019m not sure what this means and how that will be processed. Clearly, it doesn\u2019t mean just going back to the RMA, but the way that the members across the House are talking, it does very much sound to me that they think that everything now can avoid the RMA because we know that the RMA takes a long time and is inefficient and doesn\u2019t do as well for the environment as it could do, but it does do a lot better than having no regulations and no environmental standards. But it makes me worry that the Government, the coalition, thinks that we can just fast track everything, anything we want, and that it will make it the decision of the Ministers to fast track whatever it is that we want to dig our way out of this economic malaise that we heard about, and that is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbb973ddc65e40b0913cc0b82c44e26d\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re just keeping the bits of the NBA that you wrote\u2014the fast-track bits. Didn\u2019t you write that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f59eafefc7e1403cb3966a51097ebbdc\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: That is worrying. And I\u2019m hearing now from Mr Court \u201CWell, didn\u2019t you write the fast track?\u201D I\u2019m not yet sure what provisions of the fast track are going to apply and how they\u2019re going to apply. And I\u2019m also not sure what\u2019s going to happen to the RMA. We are going back to the RMA at the moment, yet we\u2019re also hearing that the national policy statement for fresh water is going to be totally gutted. That is what we heard at question time today. There was no clear answer to my questions: if the pretty sensible objective of the national policy statement for fresh water would continue. These are statements referring to Te Mana o te Wai that go back well into National Party Governments, including the 2014 national policy statement and the 2017 changes when National was in Government as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThis is quite a change and it\u2019s not what people were voting for when they thought that cost of living was the big issue of the day and to change the Government at that stage. New Zealanders are very proud of their environment and this is a terrible piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022e06c2fe6488040d4b1915fe4f25eba15\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e06c2fe6488040d4b1915fe4f25eba15\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u0022139021e17bea45cf8e3a59890af5351e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022139021e17bea45cf8e3a59890af5351e\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. I rise to speak on the second reading of this repeal bill and I want to start just by saying, as someone who studied urban planning and is a qualified planner, that the Green Party has long been the voice for having a better approach to planning\u2014one that gets better outcomes for our natural environment, for our people, for our towns and cities, and that is entirely possible. However, it is not what is being achieved by this repeal bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThe current Government has a pretty incoherent position when it comes to solid planning to achieve the outcomes that we need. The reality is that many of the outcomes that were frustrating people are not linked to the fundamental planning legislation itself but to the planning rules that sit underneath it. That was a problem that I long brought up about the Resource Management Act (RMA). In fact the Minister who gave the first speech in this debate\u2014before either of us were members of Parliament, we talked at length about some of the harmful impacts of planning rules that had been adopted from North America that didn\u2019t have evidence behind them, that were causing large compliance costs but also creating environments where it was harder for people to walk, cycle, take public transport; higher land costs because it forced car-dependent urban areas through planning rules that required large off-street car parks rather than managing parking appropriately. This unintentionally subsidised single-occupant vehicle trips but also spread our cities out in a way that makes them\u2014well, it\u2019s worse for the environment, it\u2019s worse for the climate, it\u2019s worse for health, it\u2019s worse for our communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo there\u2019s huge opportunities to do things better in a way that reduces costs but also, most importantly, recognises that the most important fundamental aspect of everything we do is the natural environment. That is the fundamental basis of life on this planet. It is clean air, it is clean water, it is healthy soil, and if we don\u2019t have those things\u2014if we don\u2019t have forests, if we don\u2019t have native, indigenous biodiversity then we are going to be in trouble as a species, and we are in trouble right now, as a species. So, fundamentally, we need to recognise that we can\u2019t live on money. Money is just a symbol of value and, you know, it is a useful symbol of value in some cases but fundamentally it\u2019s not the basis of life, and we have to have environmental and planning law that protects the fundamental basis of life or we will have nothing; we will have nothing in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo when it comes to this repeal bill I just want to very quickly lay out some opportunities for better policies that would achieve the outcomes we want in our towns and cities, and with renewable energy and the climate. The Greens campaigned on some of these policies, like our climate resilient cities policy which would have laid out the funding tools and rules that would be necessary to ensure that we had nature-based solutions for water management; that we had better public transport and active transport to connect our towns and cities; that we enabled more housing in our cities, where it makes sense, along with more green spaces. Those things are fundamental; they\u2019re easy to achieve with most cities. There\u2019s heaps of cities around the world doing a good job of that. New Zealand is still not doing that and, fundamentally, the Greens are the only ones, I think, who have the practical solutions for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThe clean power payment also would have addressed issues in our electricity market in a way that would have directly affected people\u2019s cost of living; it would have reduced their power bills while massively increasing distributed solar energy and energy efficiency in our buildings. That\u2019s something that Government could do that has nothing to do with resource management law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThis current National - ACT - New Zealand First Government is fundamentally incoherent and confused on these issues. They say that they care about renewable electricity, but they aren\u2019t willing to take on the vested interests in the market and the four large players to address those issues. All they will do is say, \u201CRemove red tape, remove red tape, remove red tape.\u201D What is that a code for? It\u2019s not for smarter regulation, which we would like it to be; we would love that. The Greens have been campaigning for better rules around renewable energy since National was last in Government and they did nothing to develop a national policy statement last time they were in Government that would have made it easier for more generation. Why not? Because fundamentally there\u2019s a lot of vested interests that profit from high marginal cost of electricity that come from the coal-fired power station that that last National Government, last time they were in, did absolutely nothing about. So it\u2019s totally empty rhetoric from the Minister and from National, ACT, and New Zealand First when they say they care about renewable electricity. It is rubbish, they don\u2019t understand what the barriers are, and they\u2019re not going to actually address them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s the same when it comes to the farming sector and water standards. We have communities right across New Zealand being affected by high nitrate levels in the water, serious health concerns, and they will not do anything about it because\u2014remember what happened last time they were in Government? They disestablished Environment Canterbury\u2014elected people\u2014because they wanted to make it easier for a few vested interests to continue getting permission to take water at a rate that is totally unsustainable; water they don\u2019t even pay for. You\u2019ve got private interests taking water, diminishing our aquifers, polluting the water to the point that there\u2019s higher levels of colon cancer and bowel cancer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022308793a5fb3c4116a9eb4f6904df35d4\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Absolute rubbish; misinformation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d165c716ebad458487b1b61db42f1777\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: Simon Court says this is misinformation. So that tells you everything you need to know about this Government, which is they will not listen to evidence, they will not prioritise the health of our communities. They will prioritise the bottom lines of companies, corporates, at the expense of the environment and the health of our people because that\u2019s fundamentally the people who put them in power.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo what we had with the RMA, and I\u2019ve long been a critic of the RMA, is a permitting regime not a planning regime. The effects-based regime\u2014and again this was something that initially was started under the neo-liberal fourth Labour Government and brought into law under the National Government that came afterwards. Ultimately it says, \u201CIf you have enough money and power, you can do whatever you want.\u201D Because you can hire the lawyers and the experts and in the meantime councils are snowed under with high costs and high requirements around plan making but they aren\u2019t really given the tools to do proactive planning about what should go where and respecting environmental bottom lines. Look at the jurisdictions in the world which have, by the way, thriving economies, high levels of employment, high levels of manufacturing\u2014particularly I\u2019m thinking of Germany\u2014and really well-connected urban transport networks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EYou know, in some parts of the Germany they\u2019ve managed to achieve relatively high levels of renewable electricity; high standards for energy efficiency and building, and planning which enables homes and neighbourhoods to be completely planned around public transport and cycleways. We get, in those cities, lower transport costs, lower land costs, healthier environments, healthier people, healthier communities that can\u2019t be delivered under our current planning regime because local councils do not have the ability to do that proactive planning to the same extent. Rather, it\u2019s private landowners. The interests that these people in Government are representing are able to do private plan changes to maximise the profit and return on greenfield development to be subsidised by central Government with motorways here and there that they don\u2019t have to pay for, that directly results in their land increasing in value but ultimately puts more traffic on our road networks, creates towns and cities that are expensive and expensive to live in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo, ultimately, while our position is nuanced, because we didn\u2019t think everything was perfect in the Natural and Built Environment, and Spatial Planning Acts\u2014there were improvements and there was opportunity to do things much better. This repeal bill is basically throwing away six years of work, a quarter of a billion dollars, on something that might have gotten better outcomes, which should have gotten, definitely would have gotten better outcomes for the things that matter most: people and our planet. Ultimately, this National - New Zealand First\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e66e1a30bcc449cf92cb4603fa0aeb38\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: And ACT.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022978fbc83d25240d9a9b7f036c30f3f6c\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014whoever they are\u2014ACT Government are simply here to represent vested interests, to make it easier for people to profit\u2014small groups of people to profit\u2014while destroying our environment. They don\u2019t even believe in public health, is what I\u2019ve heard from Simon Court. They don\u2019t even believe the evidence around the relationship between nitrates in the water and bowel cancer. This is the Government that we have to live with for now, but the Greens will continue to campaign, because we know that the values of New Zealanders align with the values of the Green Party and we\u2019re the ones who truly understand the challenges and have the solutions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u00221134c39652744d529a1f89d5215048ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221134c39652744d529a1f89d5215048ce\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Well, what we\u2019ve heard there is the Greenpeace 1991 talking points, but that\u2019s not relevant to what we\u2019re here to do today. New Zealand needs resource management law that actually allows us to build infrastructure and housing and allows New Zealand businesses to invest with confidence in assets that produce things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ede220fd68644778bf022562f065ab3d\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Come on\u2014come on, Simon, medium-density residential standards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022752ceb65c9334702a0a81f70849ff186\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right, the Hon Rachel Brooking, we\u2019re here today to repeal the terrible legislation that you and your Government spent five years cooking up; today it goes in the bin. What New Zealanders need is to be able to see the clear trade-offs between land use and environmental protection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThe Acts we\u2019re repealing today do not provide that clarity. That\u2019s why they don\u2019t help New Zealand get ahead. We need to allow New Zealanders to enjoy and use their property with a minimum of red tape and a minimum number of people who have the right to object to how you use it, including minimising the risk that activists might turn up to try to get some kind of stake in the ground on your consent application that has implications for all New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWe need bills. We need replacement legislation that makes it easier to build and grow. The Natural and Built Environment and the Spatial Planning Acts were not going to do that. That\u2019s why they\u2019re going to be repealed today. The former Labour Minister Rachel Brooking mentioned te Oranga o te Taiao. Did anyone in the House hear that member try to explain what te Oranga o te Taiao meant? Well, even a former practising resource management lawyer couldn\u2019t explain it, and that\u2019s exactly what her colleagues told me and others at various resource management law events I\u2019ve attended in the past 12 months. They didn\u2019t understand what it meant. It was going to take 10 years to define it through the courts. That entire time was going to be a period of great uncertainty for New Zealand businesses and primary producers seeking to invest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBusinesses, farmers, and public infrastructure builders need clarity on time lines and consent conditions in order to go ahead with investments. There is nothing in the legislation that Labour passed, that we\u2019re going to repeal today, that was going to provide that clarity. When it comes to fresh water, this bill will pause\u2014in fact, sorry, delay\u2014the implementation of the national policy statement for fresh water, because it\u2019s proving impossible to implement and provide fair outcomes for those who need water or discharge to water. It\u2019s completely unworkable. Last week, a decision was handed back by a court to some applicants who opposed the granting of an exemption for vegetable growers in the Horowhenua and Pukekohe areas, where 80 percent of the vegetables in New Zealand supermarkets come from, and a number of groups had appealed against the exemption that vegetable growers in those areas had from the rules in the National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management, because they said they should apply equally. Well, if the Horizons Regional Council is required to reduce on emissions or discharges by 100 percent, that means, potentially, all of the vegetables in those regions won\u2019t be able to be grown. That\u2019s 80 percent of the vegetables in New Zealand supermarkets. It\u2019s totally impractical freshwater rules like that that will have to go and that this bill puts a pause on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, restoring the Resource Management Act is only temporary. At least New Zealand businesses, growers, and farmers understand it, even though it\u2019s not perfect. But what this Government is doing is retaining and enhancing the fast-track provisions that will allow all kinds of infrastructure to be stood up, consented, much more quickly. And I do commend the Minister, the Hon Chris Bishop, for the work he\u2019s done to bring this bill to the House so quickly. We will pass it in the next 24 hours, and New Zealanders will be able to get on with building their businesses, growing their farms, and actually planning for their future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022 data-id=\u00221e3771ba560a4c669da04441453968df\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e3771ba560a4c669da04441453968df\u0022\u003ETANYA UNKOVICH (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I rise on behalf of New Zealand First, who are not confused, to take the call on the second reading of this bill, and we are in support and commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u00221c3216b0a9b142cf94cc203706560604\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221c3216b0a9b142cf94cc203706560604\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Look, it\u2019s just really crazy to hear the arguments from the Government about wanting to repeal something that has had so much consideration, so much work\u2014not just in the six years as alluded to by the Green member but for many years, by real experts in this field\u2014to leave us with a big fat nothing. It would be one thing if they had a plan, but to have a big fat nothing is going back to the future. That is exactly what\u2019s happening, and it\u2019s crazy, because what we are going back to, this big fat nothing, in the meantime leaves this very discredited 30-year-old piece of legislation that absolutely nobody is convinced can do the job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EIf we think about 30 years, that\u2019s a long time. That\u2019s 1991 that this legislation came in. That was when the Soviet Union was dissolved and we had Russia come back in, when we had Yugoslavia still in existence. We had the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles as being one of the best Christmas presents in that time. The apartheid laws: there was an announcement that apartheid laws in South Africa would be repealed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThis is how old the piece of legislation is that we are going back to while the Government sits there and tries to dream up a plan as a stop-gap measure to fill that hole. And I can tell you what kind of impacts it has had. In the Auckland Council, it is written in one of their planning documents that they have been using the consenting process under the Resource Management Act (RMA) as a money-making activity for the council. Now, that\u2019s absolutely abhorrent to anybody who hears that, but it is written in their documentation, and I have seen it when we have been discussing this and the need for reform.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EIn my own electorate of Taieri, with the Brighton landfill, which very sadly has been granted consent, that whole process was so distorted in my view and so beholden to this 30-year-old legislation that meant that there were submissions that were 30 years old, that talked about the impacts of the landfill, and that were accepted because they were from neighbours and there was no other process by which to gather that evidence. There were huge questions over whether this should have been a notifiable event or not. Under that very old legislation, it wasn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EBut not only does it leave a big fat hole, the problem\u2014as the previous Minister, my good friend and colleague, the Hon Rachel Brooking, has referred to\u2014is that the legislation is being rammed through with no due consideration. And if we look at what happened with the Act that is being repealed, that was the result of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3787c1505f9409a81fa74cb07243a07\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Two bills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdd313a9ebda4cd6a380b41143b97334\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY\u003C/span\u003E: Two bills, thank you. That was a result of not only the six years of work that went in by a really, really hard-working committee, but also there were people like Rachel Brooking who sat on there who had previously been on the panel that did years of work on the Randerson report leading up to the six years of work in this House. There was a huge amount of work done by the Hon Eugenie Sage in her role as chair of the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3adb0b0f1f84c61a33cf54e96a15d91\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: A very fair chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291ac0a47bf894945ad84da71cfcbd2ed\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY\u003C/span\u003E: A very fair chair, as Rachel Brooking says, and also hours and hours of listening to evidence. Now, that is due process. What we are seeing here today in this House is just a complete\u2014you know, it\u2019s doing the middle finger to the due process that this House really should be doing when considering legislation that is impacting all of us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThe other thing is the terrible impact that it is having going forward. Already in my electorate in Taieri, Rachel Brooking and I have been quoted in the Otago Daily Times asking the council to please reconsider that it\u2019s putting the kibosh on the planning documents and the planning that it has been doing for the freshwater plans around the region. It\u2019s such a shame, because it has taken a long time to get to the point where there are freshwater plans. There\u2019s been a lot of politics there. There has been a lot of water that is being used pursuant to historic mining permits that now farmers are using, and the consequence is the terrible degradation of the Manuherikia catchment. Suddenly, because this Government is saying it\u2019s going to repeal the legislation, that council has chosen to put the pause on, which means that, once again, we won\u2019t have a requirement for that river to be swimmable; it will go back to being wadable. There\u2019s a massive difference. The degradation will continue. Farmers will be able to continue taking as much water from the catchment as they like, and all the reasons for this legislation that was put in originally to be able to find a better balance around our waterways and around our natural resources has simply been forgotten. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s a really sad day to see so much hard work done and so much consideration\u2014I apologise on behalf of myself and this House to all those people who submitted and put so much thought and care and time and money into making submissions on the previous legislation. It\u2019s a terrible day. It\u2019s being rammed through, and we do not support this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002237206b42f40e458a833826d1fb5c87a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002237206b42f40e458a833826d1fb5c87a6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Could I just say that the member resuming her seat has got about 4\u00BD minutes available after the dinner break, if she wishes. Thank you very much for concluding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221b1385543287493aba8bc73c6579443d\u0022\u003EMaiden Statements\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227a23aebaee684932a02cb317da7ca20e\u0022\u003EMaiden Statements\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022 data-id=\u002288629198483e4f5993364469db1bb034\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288629198483e4f5993364469db1bb034\u0022\u003EGREG FLEMING (National\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003EKa hari te tangata k\u0101hore nei,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003Ee haere i te whakaaro o te tangata kino, \u0101,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003Ek\u0101hore e t\u016B i te ara o te hunga hara,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003Ek\u0101hore an\u014D e noho i te nohoanga o te hunga whakah\u012B.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003EEngari ko te Ture a Ihow\u0101 t\u0101na e whakaahuareka ai;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003EKei t\u014Dna ture \u014Dna whakaaro i te ao, i te p\u014D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003EHe rite hoki ia ki te r\u0101kau i whakat\u014Dkia ki te awa wai,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003Ee whai hua nei i te p\u014D e hua ai;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003Ee kore t\u014Dna rau e memenge; \u0101,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003Eka pono \u0101na mea katoa e me ai ia.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003EKoin\u0101 t\u014Dku tino wawata. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003E[Blessed is the one \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003Ewho does not walk in step with the wicked \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003Eor stand in the way that sinners take \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003Eor sit in the company of mockers,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003Ebut whose delight is in the law of the Lord, \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003Eand who meditates on his law day and night. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003EThat person is like a tree planted by streams of water, \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003Ewhich yields its fruit in season \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003Eand whose leaf does not wither\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003Ewhatever they do prospers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003EThat is my greatest dream.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003ETen years ago this January, a seed took root in my heart which has carried me here today. When on that summer\u2019s morning Dr Alistair Reese began his talk titled \u201CThe Story of New Zealand\u201D, he\u2014a P\u0101keh\u0101\u2014in beautiful te reo M\u0101ori, acknowledged every waka in the room. I\u2019ll never forget the wairua. Waves of peace, of grace, and of unity rolled gently from one side of the hall to the other, and then he told a story of hope. I wept for most of the next three hours. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003EThe seed planted that day grew into a tree that now deeply shapes why I am here. I want to speak to that more, but first, let me tell you a little of my own story. I had the most wonderful childhood\u2014thank you for being here today, Mum and Dad. Raised on a small farm in the Wairarapa, my experience is one of unconditional love and endless opportunity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003EAt the age of nine, my dad gave me six laying hens and my first sack of wheat. I opened a bank account, back in those days when it was easier to open a bank account than to complete a PhD. By the time I was 13, I had 50 hens and a custom-designed shed, and I was selling several hundred eggs a week around the town. I sold all the cracked ones to my mum at full price; I may have even charged her delivery to the kitchen. As the Good Book says \u201CRaise a child in the way that they should go\u201D\u2014and they might become an ACT MP. Toit\u016B te capitalism! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003EAt age 15, I changed to a different kind of egg and began importing used golf balls from the United States. Mr Nolan, my accounting teacher at Wairarapa College, told me I\u2019d learn more from running my business than I would from his classes, so I used that time to negotiate an import licence with the Department of Internal Affairs. The week before I was to send them a cheque for $25,000, Roger Douglas deregulated the import industry, the golf ball price halved overnight, and I escaped with a free but invaluable education. I switched most of my capital then into Brierley shares, October 1987 soon arrived, and I received a further education\u2014that one wasn\u2019t free. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003EI knew by then that I would pursue business\u2014not share trading\u2014and I loved creating things and saw opportunities at every corner. So at Victoria University, I pursued accountancy. I also pursued Kirstin Harrison, and after four years, she finally agreed to marry me. We celebrate 30 years this January; in fact, I worked out that while we were getting married, our new Prime Minister was on honeymoon. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003EWe headed to London, where I worked in finance and marketing, and by the time we returned home pregnant, I had a whole range of business ideas ready to pursue. However, just a few weeks in, I took a call from a new charity supporting parents. They needed a business manager, and I told them I\u2019d look out for one. You see, my role was to make the money and give it to charities, or so I thought. However, after three sleepless nights, I drove to Auckland; met the board, chaired by Sir John Graham; and a few weeks later, we set up home in Onehunga. I was to give one year to the charity before returning to my business path, but those 12 months derailed my plans. I experienced the joy of connecting people in need with resources and solutions, and I was hooked. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003EAs the work grew, I found us interacting with local government and central government, and my interest in politics was piqued. In 2001, I thought about running for Parliament, but Sir John and others encouraged me to instead take time to work out what I believed and why I believed it. A group of us started a think tank, and so began the next stage of my formation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003EAs I wrote this part of this speech, I reflected on who I was back then, and my supreme confidence in my ideas, despite them being untested by the realities of life. I\u2019m so grateful to those friends who steered me. Had I come to this House then, I would have just added to the noise. My mind may have been clear, but my heart was nowhere near ready. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003EIn those early years, I knew what I believed; I just wanted to convince everyone else of my position. But then I encountered people who had different views, and I began to do something very dangerous: I began to listen to them. They invited me into their worlds, and my own began to change. Many of those generous, patient people are here tonight or watching online\u2014I acknowledge and thank you all\u2014and very often, from those changes I found myself creating. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003EAs I mentioned earlier, I had thought my life would be one of creating businesses; instead, it\u2019s been community organisations, and I\u2019ve been involved with many. One of particular impact was in 2010, when I had the privilege of helping start a trust to scale the organic work of a remarkable immigrant couple, Cliffy and Indranee Reddy. The fruit of their efforts with struggling wh\u0101nau in Manurewa was beyond remarkable, and my 12-year journey with them has deeply shaped my faith in the healing and restoration that is possible in even the most broken contexts. It\u2019s carved in me my responsibility as someone who was given such a healthy relational context to invest my life in helping heal the less fortunate contexts of others. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s why I\u2019ve come to this place. I think we all have. In the brief time I\u2019ve been here, I\u2019ve not heard or met anyone who wants anything different. We all yearn for our people, our communities, and our land to thrive; the differences are in how we think those ends are best achieved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003EI am a National MP primarily because I\u2019ve observed that Government contributes best to that flourishing when it distributes power to the front line\u2014to iwi, hap\u016B, wh\u0101nau, community organisations, businesses, local schools, and local providers\u2014for it is on the pae, in the vestry, in the school board meeting, and at kitchen tables that we build a flourishing Aotearoa. Seldom does central government know best, and that belief has\u2014like all my beliefs\u2014been formed and shaped in me through experience. I know firsthand in education, housing, welfare, rehabilitation, and business that it is local solutions in local contexts with local relationships where we foster true human flourishing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003EMana motuhake\u2014it\u2019s not a silver bullet. It has its own complexities and challenges, but it is, I believe, a measurably better approach than that of centralisation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s why I asked Maungakiekie to send me to Parliament\u2014to champion that sector, those platoons of civil society, those thousand points of light that bring life and hope to people\u2019s lives: organisations like T\u014D W\u0101hi and the Oranga Community Centre, like the Mount Wellington community network and Connect the Dots, like Elevate Disabilities Trust and the Hearing House in One Tree Hill, like the Ellerslie, Mount Wellington, and Onehunga community patrols, like the Salvation Army Medical Centre in Royal Oak, like the Onehunga and Ellerslie business associations, and like every school and club and family in Maungakiekie. It\u2019s why I\u2019ve come to this place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003EBut I appreciate that my view of Government is contested. It\u2019s why this House exists as it does\u2014to debate those ideas and beliefs\u2014and I am so grateful to be here and I\u2019m determined to listen well. The first evening here, I returned after the dinner break, ready to write my Christmas cards, but then the speeches began and I never picked up my pen. For 2\u00BD hours, I listened. I listened carefully to Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u2019s vision of Government\u2014I heard his heart\u2014and I took notes of the points I want to unpack with him over a meal, or several perhaps. When Willow-Jean Prime spoke her full 10 minutes in te reo M\u0101ori with no notes at all, I hung off every word, including the many I look forward to debating. I remind myself daily that in every interaction, I am\u2014through my actions, my words and my listening\u2014either humanising someone or dehumanising them. I can enter their world or dismiss their world and discard the person along with it. In choosing to enter their world, I choose the space where tolerance lives. And tolerance is neither weakness nor agreement. It is strength; it is grace. It is recognising the humanity of the other and the importance of them being able to express their view\u2014even though I might deeply disagree with it. And I can always learn. Because sometimes, in the fullness of life, it turns out that it was I who was wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003EA few months after I heard that \u201CStory of New Zealand\u201D, I began a new leadership role and invited an old friend, Te Waka McLeod, to join me. She was relishing being back home in Taranaki, as there, in both her family and work context, she could at last be fully M\u0101ori. \u201CWhat if we changed this new work environment to be like that?\u201D, I asked. In a moment of reckless vision she agreed to move back north, and together we and others began a journey that has shaped me more than I can describe. It began simply with karakia and mihi and waiata. Then we had a staff retreat at Umupuia Marae. Next, we stayed at Te T\u012B in Waitangi. We formed a partnership with Te W\u0101nanga o Aotearoa so all our staff could learn te reo during work time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003EWe were generously invited into a haerenga, a journey, into te ao M\u0101ori and its language, and for me that journey has never ended\u2014and it never will. Every day I am shaped by the life and resonance of this taonga tuku iho n\u014D ng\u0101 t\u012Bpuna [treasure that has been left to us by our predecessors] and when I hear it my spirit quickens. K\u014Drerotia te reo i ng\u0101 w\u0101 katoa [speak it all times]. When I hear it in this House, I\u2019m on the edge of my seat. Te mutunga k\u0113 mai o te reka! [Incredibly beautiful!] I am only at the beginning of my journey, and I thank fluent speakers for their patience with me\u2014whakatikaia mai. T\u0113n\u0101, ko t\u014Dku tino oati ki a koutou, ko te whai i te reo rangatira, me te tautoko i te p\u016B\u0101waitanga o te reo me \u014Dna tikanga.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003E[Correct me. My greatest pledge to you is the pursuit of this noble language, to support the flourishing of the language and its conventions.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003EFor the past two years I\u2019ve worked with friends to establish a tertiary language immersion school. Te W\u0101nanga Ihorangi welcomes its first 40 students this February, and my son Toby will be one of them. My grandchildren will be bilingual. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003EThis haerenga has shaped my faith. It wasn\u2019t long before I found myself yearning to worship in te reo M\u0101ori and so Te Ana Tapu\u2014Holy Sepulchre\u2014soon became my home. I am Mihinare and it is an honour to have here tonight many of my friends from Te Ana Tapu, including my bishop, Te Kitohi Pikaahu. Now each morning I read Te Paipera Tapu [The Holy Bible]. I pray in te reo o te whenua nei. And when I think of and hear Ihu Karaiti: he k\u014Drero M\u0101ori ia. He mataora t\u014Dna. [Jesus Christ: he speaks M\u0101ori. He has a facial moko]. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003EA friend said to me several years ago, \u201CGreg, we will be one when you can walk as easily in my world as I can in yours.\u201D That invitation beckons me every day. That\u2019s why I will never stop learning, and never stop listening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003EWhen I dream of 6 February 2040, I dare to imagine, I dare to hope, I dare to believe that on that day, by the shores of Waitangi, we will not weep tears of lament, but tears of joy. That we will celebrate. That we will walk easily in both worlds. That we will be one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003ESo I come to this House in trepidation. With my heart thus shaped, how will I operate within a place of battle, where opinions are weapons\u2014six seconds or 100 characters in length, and the stumbles of others are the trophies of each day\u2019s fight. I know this world will change me, for every world does. It\u2019s why I\u2019ve hesitated for so long. Can I remain faithful to the vision and dreams so deeply seeded and shaped within?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s why I conclude by acknowledging those who have shaped me most. Kirstin, our five remarkable children\u2014Harry, Annabel, Willis, Tobs, and Jed, my big, wonderful family\u2014in-laws and out-laws, my friends at Oati, Hepara, Maxim, Aspiring Leaders, Te Ana Tapu, Venn, Te Whakaora Tangata, Parenting Place, and Affirming Works\u2014please stay close. Hold me accountable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003ETo my campaign team, volunteers, supporters, and party colleagues. To all those who have through your generosity and grace made it possible for me to pursue this position of service, I am blessed beyond measure; I am grateful beyond words\u2014e kore e ea i te kupu \u0101ku mihi ki a koutou [my gratitude to you all cannot be satisfactorily expressed by words].\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003EFinally, I return to my maker. To the one from whom all blessings flow and from whom no secrets are hidden. You know the desires of my heart, you know my weaknesses, and you know my strengths for you formed them within me. My greatest desire is to serve you faithfully. Ko te w\u0101hi ki ahau, he whai i te p\u016B\u0101waitanga o ng\u0101 tangata katoa, ng\u0101 hapori katoa me ng\u0101 wh\u0101nau katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003E[My role is to pursue the flourishing of all people, all communities, and all families.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003EI will, with every breath, m\u0101 te whanuitanga o t\u014D aroha noa [by the breadth of your unconditional love], pursue the flourishing of this land and of its peoples.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003EE te Atua, arahina mai, tiakina mai, arohaina mai. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003E[O God, lead us, protect us, love us. Kia ora.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003EWaiata\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022 data-id=\u00223fa6c66366eb43ecaafe1fe0aadd10dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223fa6c66366eb43ecaafe1fe0aadd10dd\u0022\u003ESUZE REDMAYNE (National\u2014Rangit\u012Bkei):\u003C/span\u003E E ng\u0101 mana, e ng\u0101 reo, e ng\u0101 rangatira, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, kua huihui mai nei. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa. To all the different people and cultures, to all distinguished persons, to everyone gathered here, I greet you all. Thank you, Mr Speaker, and congratulations. In three short weeks, you\u2019ve demonstrated the institutional knowledge, good grace, fairness, and humour you bring to this esteemed office. Prime Minister Luxon and the Hon Nicola Willis, I am grateful for your relentless focus and leadership and your confidence in appointing me junior whip. To National Party President Sylvia Wood, thank you and your team for an invigorating campaign and your unwavering support. To the people of the mighty Rangit\u012Bkei electorate, it is an honour and a privilege to be your MP.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve been to Parliament many times, as a student drawn by the antics of question time\u2019s lively debate and as a Parliamentary Service employee\u2014you\u2019d think I\u2019d know where the car park was. But I must say it is different now. I feel the trust placed in me, the weight of expectation, and a commitment and a determination to serve, to be Rangit\u012Bkei\u2019s strongest advocate and a voice for rural and provincial New Zealand, for all of our diverse communities and interests. Rangit\u012Bkei represents quintessential heartland; rural and provincial New Zealand at its best. It\u2019s where community is not just a word; it\u2019s who we are, it\u2019s how we are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s great to be here. I couldn\u2019t have done it alone, and I didn\u2019t. I pay tribute to our members, in particular our electorate executive, boldly led by Shelley Dew-Hopkins; to our caucus club; campaign donors; cottage meeting hosts; and our team of volunteers. To my campaign team, especially the newbies who lowered the average age by about 20 years: Louise Mason, Jack Monkton, Patrick Coogan, Finn McDonald, and Isaac Grant\u2014and thank you for being here. The Ohakune crew: Bruce and Steph Rollinson and Nikki Riley. And the matriarchs: Elaine, Sue, Di, Marguerite, Claire, Marion, and my fabulous mother-in-law, Gaylyn. You all are the beating heart of every election campaign, and I\u2019m truly grateful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003EI was born and raised in Wellington. I grew up in a close and caring family, with parents who recognised the values of integrity, generosity of spirit, education, and a strong work ethic, where we were reminded that good manners don\u2019t cost a thing. My mum, born Robin Cuddon, and my dad, Michael Dossor, came from Marlborough. By sheer luck, Dad grew up on a farm in Rapaura. His dad, Robert, left York in his early 20s. He planned to be a mounted policeman in Canada. His best friend wanted to go to New Zealand to be a farmer. They flipped a coin, and here I am. Mum was a hostess with the National Airways Corporation\u2014fabulous and elegant still, Mum. Thank you for everything you do and everything you are. I love you. Dad enjoyed a 50-year career with Turners and Growers\u2014the banana man. He was proud of the fact that on his watch, New Zealanders ate more bananas per capita than any other country in the world. A marketer and a great communicator, Dad got on with everyone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003EWe moved to Samoa for a couple of years. I went to kindy there. My brother Mark was a novelty with his blonde locks. Emma, my sister, was born in Apia. This ingrained in our family a love and affinity for the islands, which is still celebrated. My youngest sister, Rach, arrived when we moved back to Paremata, when the topic of conversation was the merits or not of Transmission Gully, at an eye-watering $2 million\u2014if only. After graduating from Otago University, I worked at ACC. This would prove a defining experience for me, the power of public service to make a material difference in the lives of others.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003EMum and Dad inspired us to travel, and I\u2019m grateful they encouraged me to go and see the world in order to better understand my place in it. In 1991, I left Napier on a Lauritzen reefer bound for Antwerp with my friend Kath Grieve\u201428 days on a ship, we touched land once to refuel before going through the Panama Canal. It was the start of a six-year adventure spanning a myriad of jobs and three continents, on a shoestring with a backpack. I loved it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003EI landed back in New Zealand, and before I knew it I was married to my best friend Rich and living at Tunnel Hill, a sheep and beef and forestry and maize farm in Turakina. Three children in 3\u00BD years was brutal but brilliant. Sam, Ruby, and Sophie are now in their early 20s and making their own way in the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003EIn 39 years, Rangit\u012Bkei has been served by three National MPs. I\u2019ve had the privilege of knowing each of them, and I\u2019ve worked with two. Hon Denis Marshall, former Minister of Conservation, continues to this day to be a conservation pioneer through his New Zealand Nature Fund. Hon Simon Power was a great mentor and astute strategic political mind. Asked when he retired what he thought was the greatest quality required of an MP, he said, \u201CEmpathy.\u201D\u2014I agree. Ian McKelvie reinforced my belief that above all, politics is about service. It\u2019s about being part of the communities you represent. I\u2019ll be for ever grateful for his selfless commitment to helping others be the best version of themselves\u2014and I won\u2019t forget what it looks like either. Together, Ian and Sue are a formidable team. May I also claim the Hon Tama Potaka\u2014tangata pekapeka, the Batman, the second Minister of Conservation to come from Rangit\u012Bkei. His wings grew strong and his senses were finely tuned during his formative years in Rata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003EWorking in the electorate office for 20 years has given me unique insight into the social, environmental, and economic fabric of our region. I\u2019ve walked many miles in others\u2019 shoes. I\u2019m genuinely motivated by helping people, and, stripped back, I believe that\u2019s the fundamental role of an electorate MP. I\u2019m well aware the staff in these offices play a critical role. To my outstanding colleagues over the years: Norma Humphries, Peter Bamber, Christine Nagel, and Jane Cameron\u2014and, of course, Bernadette, Leanne, Kay, and Ainslie, who\u2019ve agreed to stick with me. I\u2019m grateful for your determination to find solutions and make a difference for the people who seek help.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003EThe mighty Rangit\u012Bkei electorate covers the area of 12,500 square kilometres, from Taumarunui in the north, to Shannon in the south. The Whangaehu River forms our western boundary to include R\u0101tana and my home town of Turakina. We skirt the edge of Palmerston North, to take in Massey University and the IPU technical institute, Summerhill, and Aokautere. The Rangit\u012Bkei River carves its way from the headwaters of the Kaimanawa Ranges south to the Tasman Sea, and gives us our name. It translates: the day to take great strides. Well, here we are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003EFeilding is our biggest town, with a population of almost 18,000, followed by Marton, Taumarunui, Ashhurst, Taihape, Ohakune, National Park, Sanson, Hunterville, and Santoft. We have five great mayors serving across our communities. We have no traffic lights, but we love a good roundabout! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003EFeilding High School has produced nine All Blacks\u2014three players in the team which played in this year\u2019s Rugby World Cup final were old boys. Sport crosses cultures and backgrounds here, and is the glue that binds many of our isolated individuals and communities together. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003EWe are the centre of gravity for the New Zealand Defence Force, with the greatest military presence of any region, including \u014Chakea, Wai\u014Duru, and Linton.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003EWe share Mount Ruapehu with my friend the Hon Louise Upston\u2019s Taup\u014D electorate. Our maunga is a key player in the abundance of tourism opportunities that our region has to offer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003EWe are exceptional food and fibre producers in the Rangit\u012Bkei. We grow it all: beef, lamb, dairy products, fruit, vegetables, and wool\u2014for New Zealanders and the world. We have a rich diversity of cultures. Many who first arrived as seasonal workers across these industries now proudly call Rangit\u012Bkei home; their contributions enrich our communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003ERich and I launched our paddock to plate business, Coastal Lamb, in 2010, with Rangit\u012Bkei at its heart. We did it with the support of many local and national businesses and our farming partners, some of whom are here today\u2014Pat and Catherine O\u2019Neill and Hugh Lilburn, hi. The business was built and has grown because of relationships. We\u2019ve travelled around New Zealand and the world telling the story of our lamb, and hosted our in-market partners and some of the world\u2019s best chefs at Tunnel Hill. We\u2019re all connected and they\u2019re all very much a part of our business and our story. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003EInnovation flows in many forms in Rangit\u012Bkei\u201487 percent of all the petrol pumps in New Zealand, and 30 percent of those in Australia, are designed and manufactured in Marton. We have entrepreneurs revitalising the wool industry, exploring alternative land-use, and developing alternative fuels.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003EThis city girl found herself in the country, and so it was Rangit\u012Bkei that would eventually bring me back to Wellington and to Parliament, with a proud resolve to celebrate who we are and what we have, and equally to be a voice for what needs fixing. Our role is not just lawmakers and regulators; we need to provide vision. It\u2019s our job to inspire; Government can lead change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003ESustainable farming is not an oxymoron; it\u2019s what most farmers\u2014and all good farmers\u2014do. We can\u2019t make a living from the land without kaitiakitanga, without caring for the land and the soil, embracing biodiversity. We need a regulatory framework that\u2019s built from the bottom up. Our catchment groups are doing a great job; let\u2019s use them to drive water reforms. Let\u2019s keep it local. Our farmers need to be empowered. New Zealand\u2019s economic recovery starts in rural New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003ESocial investment provides early intervention and unlocks potential, and using the knowledge and experience of local organisations, like Manchester House in Feilding, and M\u014Dkai P\u0101tea in Taihape, will be the key to our success.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003EWe have 78 schools, with rolls ranging from seven to over 1,500. We need an education system that\u2019s aspirational. Education is the path to a job and a key to breaking the cycle of dependency. As a country, we\u2019re failing our most vulnerable. But we\u2019re also failing our kids in the middle and those at the top. They all deserve better. Thank you, Erica Stanford, for leading the way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003ETechnology has changed the world we live in, but its benefits are not shared equally. Our phone network and internet coverage in Rangit\u012Bkei is embarrassing. You\u2019ll soon be able to enjoy uninterrupted broadband service flying on a plane with Air New Zealand, but you can\u2019t drive more than 10 kilometres in Rangit\u012Bkei without dropping out of service. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003EFeilding, a town of 18,000 people no longer has a 24-hour police service, and the boy racers, amongst others, exploit it. Our community, our businesses, and our wellbeing wears it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003EI will work hard to ensure that our businesses and farms grow and that our towns and communities and way of life can thrive. I will work hard to ensure no one is left behind and that those who need it get a hand up. I will champion local issues and I\u2019ll help solve local problems.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003ETo my family, you will always come first. Sam, currently working on a farm in Wales and who is eager to one day take the rein of Tunnel Hill, a farmer from day dot. Ruby, my wise and insightful daughter, a lawyer and banker with Rabobank, so proud of her rural roots. Sophie, fiercely competitive and driven, a salesperson since she could talk and who is now territory sales manager for Coca-Cola. I love you all and I\u2019m proud to be your mum.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003ERich, your focus, energy, and drive is inspirational. I couldn\u2019t have done this without you. Thanks for luring the townie 200 kilometres up the road and showing her what the best of New Zealand looks like. I love you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003ETo those who are no longer here\u2014Rich\u2019s dad, Will, and to my dad, who would have so loved this ride; I promise you\u2019re right here, Dad.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s clear I\u2019ve seen and been part of the genuine sense of community that comes from living in rural and provincial New Zealand. Rangit\u012Bkei\u2019s been my home for 26 years. It\u2019s my t\u016Brangawaewae. I found a real sense of purpose in rural New Zealand, where it\u2019s about we, not me; our people are modest and humble\u2014in Rangit\u012Bkei, show ponies wear a saddle; where the core National Party values of strong families, caring communities, and hard work are part of our daily life. I want Rangit\u012Bkei to be seen and heard. I want Rangit\u012Bkei to be proud\u2014proud of the strength of our towns and communities, the diversity of talent, the pockets of excellence, the hearts of gold, the rich diversity of our social fabric.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003E\u201CStart where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can.\u201D Arthur Ashe\u2019s words speak of Rangit\u012Bkei, where we roll up our sleeves and get on with the job. That is what I will do: get on with the job of serving the mighty Rangit\u012Bkei and all who call our fantastic part of the world home.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022 data-id=\u0022caeeecdc75eb4863bfc449bf96e64a28\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022caeeecdc75eb4863bfc449bf96e64a28\u0022\u003EDr HAMISH CAMPBELL (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E It is a great honour to stand here, in the Parliament of New Zealand, and speak as a representative of Ilam and my community. May I begin by acknowledging you, Mr Speaker, and the years of service that you have given the Ilam electorate. You ably represented Ilam for over 20 years\u2014nearly a quarter of a century. And I\u2019m sure, Mr Speaker, you will agree with me, in an unbiased way, that Ilam is the best electorate in the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213e782d5225a44e59cc46f152afee83a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No doubt about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022578be5f868964044958977d97befc158\u0022\u003EDr HAMISH CAMPBELL\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, good. I will endeavour to serve it well, but I do acknowledge I have a lot of growing to do to get to your stature. Apart from you and I, Mr Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5d0110405c84ac1bb4360f759fc2e45\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That was a very career limiting sort of comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df47de58682f429b93c9cdc998b5bc09\u0022\u003EDr HAMISH CAMPBELL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014there\u2019ve been a number of notable people that have come from the Ilam electorate and spent their formative years there, including the former Prime Minister Sir John Key and, of course, the current Prime Minister, the Rt Hon Christopher Luxon. I think there must be something in the waters of the Avon River, that start there and run through the electorate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003ESpeaking of you, Mr Prime Minister\u2014I\u2019ll be a little bit gentler\u2014I\u2019d like to acknowledge and congratulate you on leading the National party to one of the largest turn-arounds that this country has ever seen. Congratulations. You led ably, and you\u2019ll continue to lead our country to prosperity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to acknowledge those that have assisted you, Mr Prime Minister, just in front of me, here: Nicola Willis, Chris Bishop, and the rest of the front bench, and of course, our president Sylvia Wood.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003ETo the people of Ilam, thank you. Thank you for your trust and belief in me. I am here to deliver for you and to represent you to the best of my ability. I want to be an MP that\u2019s consistently present in the electorate and part of the community\u2014I was, during the campaign, and have been and will be, since the election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003EI\u2019d especially like to thank the National Party members of the Ilam electorate that first selected me as a candidate, and then helped me through the campaign. A true, heartfelt thank you to Ryan, Robyn, Murray, Chantel, Vivian, Ethan, Bryant, and Peter\u2014just to name a few. But I\u2019d also like to thank their partners for allowing them to spend so much time with me during the campaign.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003ETo my current class of 2023, your maiden speeches have been outstanding. Couldn\u2019t at least one of you screw-up to make me look a little better?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003EBut, above all, I\u2019d like to thank my family and friends for the support they have given me throughout my life. In particular, for the last 19.9 years, my wife, Carol, who\u2019s sitting in the gallery. You have stood by me as I not only chose to enter into politics but also previously, when I made the choice to work as a scientist\u2014not for industry but for charities and not-for-profit organisations. You shared my vision of making a difference in people\u2019s lives. I\u2019ve been very blessed to have such a supportive wife. You are my rock. You are my guide. You are an amazing person. Thank you for your sacrifices.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003ETo my two young daughters up there, I love you dearly. I apologise in advance; I apologise for being away from home and missing dates and events that are important to you. I apologise for the hostilities you may face in the playground because of me. I apologise for the attacks that will come on social media\u2014and possibly from the media. But may you look back in later years and know I was away from home in an effort to make the world a better and fairer place\u2014not just for you but for all Kiwi kids. And as the American writer Ralph Waldo Emerson wrote, \u201Cto know even one life breathed easier because you lived, this is to have succeeded.\u201D I hope you look back and know that I succeeded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003ETo my parents, who never sought the limelight, I think you probably cringed when I entered politics, but I\u2019m very grateful for your support and understanding of my motivations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003ETo my mother, the sands of time are now taking their toll, but happy 82nd birthday for today. Happy birthday, mum. You grew up in a very conservative part of rural Canterbury but had the drive and ambition to overcome the prevailing social pressures and norms of the time, and to go to university. It was a time when it was not common to go to university\u2014far less so for a female. You not only did that but you entered the male-dominated field of chemistry. From where I\u2019m sitting today, I will never truly understand the battle you faced to get there and to be accepted and to achieve what you did. You did it not to seek attention, not to upturn everything, but to improve what was there. You did it because it was the right thing to do. You became a science and maths teacher. You loved teaching. You took your education, and you shared it. You knew education opened up the minds and was the key to an interesting and independent life, and a way to improve one\u2019s lot.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003EI think of my father losing his father when he was just a young boy, in what was, essentially, an industrial accident, leaving six children\u2014from 15 down to four years old\u2014fatherless. It\u2019s events like this that highlight the importance of a societal safety net. My grandmother raised six children, one with a severe chronic illness, in a two-bedroom State house. Despite those challenges, she did have the foresight to ensure that all of her children took a trade. University wasn\u2019t even a faint possibility. I doubt, at that time, anybody living in that State house would imagine one of their immediate descendants would be ending up sitting in Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003EMy father left school as soon as he legally could, at the age of 15, to support the rest of his family. He later, working full-time, went to night school to try and educate himself. He ended up with his own business that he grew and later sold to a large international company. Retiring freed him up to follow his interests as a pragmatic environmentalist by converting a derelict apple orchard into one of the first, early, certified-organic export orchards, and proving that an apple a day keeps the doctor away. Despite being in his 80s, he works every day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003ETo my two brothers who have travelled thousands of kilometres to be here today, thank you for your support. You have taught me a lot over the years. I credit you for teaching me to eat very fast. With two older brothers you learn to eat quickly or go hungry, but that has proven a very useful skill, here in Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003EMy life story is a simple one. I don\u2019t come from a family of famous, wealthy people. My whakapapa doesn\u2019t trace back to anyone notable. But it does track back to a group of humble people that have just gone about their day-to-day lives below the radar. They\u2019ve worked hard to provide for their families. But I don\u2019t look back with rose-tinted glasses. They weren\u2019t perfect, and neither am I. But, then again, I don\u2019t think anybody is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003EMy family have worked and worried, loved and lost loved ones, they\u2019ve had their ups and downs, but I think it\u2019s dodgy to take credit for notable ancestors, because that would mean I\u2019d need to take responsibility for those not so good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003EI was born and raised in the Ilam electorate. And those who are asking the most important Christchurch question\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267390ef16830436da94c11b30062d4a9\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229155f707832b4bb39be8d3cfc8979023\u0022\u003EDr HAMISH CAMPBELL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014I attended Avonhead Primary School, and then on to Christchurch Boys\u2019 High School\u2014I think there\u2019s a few people from Christchurch here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003EFollowing a fine education received from many great teachers, I then moved down to Dunedin, where I completed a PhD in cancer and viruses. I wrote about coronaviruses long before they were commonplace in the public lexicon. I say that not to blow my own trumpet but to highlight the knowledge that we have in our research organisations, up and down this country. It\u2019s often knowledge that we pull upon in times of dark distress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003EFollowing my PhD, I had the privilege of working at the Children\u2019s Medical Research Institute in Sydney, where I worked as a fundamental scientist, trying to understand the molecular drivers of cancer\u2014or, in other words, how cancers form. This led me to immunology in autoimmune disease. I eventually became the deputy head of research for an organisation focused on multiple sclerosis. Multiple sclerosis and other immunological conditions are on the rise in our society. In these roles, I met people and families going through tough times facing diseases that they never thought they would need to face. To them, I would say: I have brought your memories and your stories to this place. You are one of the main reasons why I am here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003ETwo weeks ago, I had the privilege to attend the NZ science awards, celebrating some of New Zealand\u2019s finest scientists working on things such as microplastics, environmental resilience, and seismic science. We have some amazing scientists here in New Zealand. I just do want to acknowledge the overall winner on that night: Dr Stephen Goldson, whose work on combatting agricultural pests saves New Zealand between $300 million and $500 million annually. His work makes this country more productive. I mention productivity because it\u2019s so important. Producing more but using less: this makes environmental and economic sense; it is climate action in action. We need more scientists like Dr Goldson and the platoon of white lab coats that are silently driving our country forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003EThe reason why science is so important is that our young people\u2014along with the rest of us\u2014are passionate about saving the planet, improving the environment, and finding cures for life-threatening diseases. All these problems can be solved by science. We need to encourage more school children and university students to become engineers and scientists to make sure we have the breakthroughs that we so desperately want. But to do that, we need to ensure that we educate them properly. They need to understand the fundamentals of reading, writing, and arithmetic before they can reach their dreams and aspirations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s also about instilling resilience. As the famous Roman Stoics wrote\u2014or a translation of what they wrote\u2014\u201Cthe obstacle is the way.\u201D We need to teach our children to see opportunities and to focus on overcoming. Edison took thousands of attempts to develop a lightbulb; James Dyson over 5,000 prototypes to get to his famous vacuum cleaner. As James Dyson says, \u201CWe should be encouraging the young to become doers rather than virtue signallers, to help them strive to solve the problems of our age while looking forward to a better future.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003EIt would be a pity to educate our children only to be able to virtue signal and not be able to do anything about it. That would create anxiety. We need action, not activism. It has become very easy take offence at someone who may believe something different to ourselves, whether it be on climate change, vaccine science, race, or culture. We have come to think it\u2019s our right to take offence, and if you disagree, you\u2019re not just wrong but amoral.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003EWe should not place a high value on our outrage. We seem to think it gives us the moral high ground, failing to appreciate that our moral outrage belittles us; it belittles our society; it drives division and only creates further outrage. We need to reach out, be neighbours, sharing in our identities as Kiwis, not as fellow members of a race, religion, or creed. Only then will we address some of the most pressing issues facing our country and the divisions which seem to be growing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003EI recently read some words of a notable New Zealand anthropologist, Dame Anne Salmond. She said, \u201CThere are people in the middle ground who want things to be successful, tranquil, productive, creative. I would say most Kiwis are in that frame, but that\u2019s getting splintered and it feels dangerous.\u201D I think those are very accurate and sombre words. We all live on these clusters of islands in the middle of the South Pacific\u2014we had no choice who we were born, or what we were born. We only have one shot at this life, and we need to ensure everyone can play their cards to the best of their abilities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003ENow, I do just want to finally go back to the mighty Ilam electorate. It\u2019s located on the western part of Christchurch, stretching out into the countryside. It\u2019s home to the Christchurch International Airport; the University of Canterbury. Ilam is vibrant, it\u2019s full of university students with a zest for life\u2014I just wish some of those living next door to me would just have a little bit less zest for life in the wee hours of the morning. But it is exciting to see the enthusiasm and the optimism they have for life.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003EIt is an amazing place, full of amazing people. A place where 31 percent of those people that live there were not born in New Zealand but have chosen to make New Zealand their home. They chose New Zealand because it\u2019s an amazing place in which to live. This is because we have a stable secular democracy and where the rule of law is applied to all. And this is something that we should protect and cherish. Are we always going to get it right? No. Are we going to please everyone? No. More personally, am I always going to get it right? No. But at the soul of the matter, I firmly believe that everyone deserves a fair shot at life, and that is why I am here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6665c92efd746c2becafb0c8ca438fe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6665c92efd746c2becafb0c8ca438fe\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Just in view of the fact that there\u2019s only about four minutes to go until the dinner break, I just move that we lift a few minutes early and resume at 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2bfb205d09f484db83bcc8626080d2d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. All those in favour? OK. No objections. The House is suspended until 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 5.56 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022968376faf94b4ccfbe71d81ee299a70a\u0022\u003EResource Management (Natural and Built Environment and Spatial Planning Repeal and Interim Fast-track Consenting) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ad05e1d343464beeb4f0a90f08667dbc\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000677\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00228733a47b47394bf898d768da9f191083\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228733a47b47394bf898d768da9f191083\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The House is resumed on the second reading of the Resource Management (Natural and Built Environment and Spatial Planning Repeal and Interim Fast-track Consenting) Bill. We\u2019re going to start with either a Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori or Green Party split call. Up to you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022 data-id=\u0022be8189f726eb4641999010f91589d82f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be8189f726eb4641999010f91589d82f\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora. T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te P\u012Bka. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou e te Whare. Look, again, as I said earlier this evening, it\u2019s a shame that we are here in urgency discussing something so critical\u2014especially critical for us as M\u0101ori\u2014after the great relationship that particularly National used to enjoy with M\u0101ori. I think about the reflections on the National Iwi Chairs and the relationships you had in helping to design in collaboration with iwi technicians the Ministry for the Environment regulations, the Environmental Protection Authority regulations, the best-practice guidelines for engaging with all companies, and I\u2019m just really struggling to understand that this is the National that we\u2019re dealing with today that has completely ignored its relationships with iwi and with M\u0101ori who have fought really hard to get what they could in this space.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EI get why you\u2019re picking a fight with M\u0101ori. You know, we\u2019ve got ACT that got 1 percent of the M\u0101ori vote, we\u2019ve got New Zealand First that got 4 percent of the M\u0101ori vote, we\u2019ve got National that got 5 percent of the M\u0101ori vote\u2014you\u2019ve barely got 10 percent in total of the M\u0101ori vote. So I guess it\u2019s a comfort \u201Crip in and take them on\u201D at the moment, but the reality is for those of us who got six, seven times more than you did for M\u0101ori voters and who actually enjoy six of the seven M\u0101ori electorate seats, we\u2019re really concerned with what it is you\u2019re doing and the fearmongering that you\u2019ve put in, especially when it comes to discussing kupu like \u201Cte Oranga o te Taiao\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EThose are kupu, and if this is what this is about\u2014that you\u2019re worried how that\u2019s going to fare in court\u2014I\u2019m really, really stunned that, given again the history you\u2019ve had and that you\u2019ve enjoyed, which I\u2019m struggling to see if you\u2019re going to continue, you\u2019re sitting here and saying, \u201CActually, we need to repeal today because we\u2019re worried how that will be interpreted in the courts.\u201D So let me get this straight. You\u2019re worried about \u201Coranga\u201D, you\u2019re worried about \u201Cwellbeing of the environment\u201D, you\u2019re worried about \u201Cacting with precaution in a precautionary way\u201D, you\u2019re worried about being intergenerationally focused and sustaining what it is that we should be doing. It\u2019s really concerning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EThe other part that I do want to pick up in the five minutes that we\u2019ve had to be able to reflect on what it is that you\u2019ve put in this\u2014you have used the system to not only pick a fight with M\u0101ori; you have also done things that we see in page 85\u2014it could be 83; don\u2019t quote me\u2014where you have replied by putting in this: you\u2019ve replaced \u201CTe Tiriti\u201D with \u201CTreaty\u201D. You have replaced \u201CTe Tiriti\u201D with \u201CTreaty\u201D. Of all the things that I thought you would pick, that is the last thing that I would have thought that you would sit there and do within this rushed bill that we have before us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EI think the thing that\u2019s really concerning for us in this stage is that, again, if you are attempting to move us to the English version of Te Tiriti on page 83 and, following up, making hap\u016B invisible with the erasure of all mentions of hap\u016B\u2014on page 83, there is absolutely no mention of hap\u016B. It\u2019s like we just didn\u2019t exist. I\u2019m struggling to believe that this is the party\u2014you know, forget all your coalition buddies, but this is the party that prided itself in its relationships, its parallel engagement, and policy development with iwi technicians.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EThe Treaty settlements appear to be protected, but there\u2019s an expectation that the Treaty settlement legislation needs to be amended to achieve that. So much for full and final! I\u2019m stunned, David, that you\u2019re attached to this. But the thing is\u2014I mean how will you come home? But the reality too is if you are saying that the settlements are now open, that full and final is no longer something that\u2019s going to be respected, and this goes to the principle of full and final, then what is it that the Government is attempting to do?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EYou know, we get that this is a transitional bill. You\u2019ve got a lot of things you\u2019re doing in 100 days. I don\u2019t know what you expect to try and improve in 100 days, but the real meat, as we understand, will be in the fast-track bill itself. But what you have done particularly\u2014and I want our people to be really clear\u2014with \u201CTe Tiriti\u201D changed to \u201CTreaty of Waitangi\u201D, as we believe that you are doing, in page 83, you are attempting to remove the relationship that you have truly and fully with M\u0101ori, and you are now defaulting to the English version of the Treaty. That is shameful. That is not a way that is looking after the best interests of all M\u0101ori. But, as I said at the beginning, I get, with those on the right who barely got 10 percent of the M\u0101ori votes, you feel comfortable enough doing that. Kia ora r\u0101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u002294e934f57113460a85baa6e3de4550c9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002294e934f57113460a85baa6e3de4550c9\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Speaker. There seems to be a bit of a misunderstanding. Before the dinner break, it was explained to the Speaker that the call was given to us when it was a M\u0101ori Party call. So we made an arrangement with the M\u0101ori Party that they could then take our five-minute call on call No. 10 to even it out. The M\u0101ori Party\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori, apologies\u2014was given the call immediately after the dinner break. Our understanding, therefore, is that the Green Party should have the five-minute call in call No. 10. The alternative is that we will, as the Labour Party, miss out on our five-minute call because Ingrid Leary made a call on the assumption that it was a five-minute call leading right up to the maiden speeches. If she wasn\u2019t given the opportunity, and as yourself, Mr Speaker, indicated, it was straight away either a M\u0101ori Party or Green call, the Labour Party will miss out on five minutes speaking time in this as a result.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022 data-id=\u00226e7e418ad43d45f398bc4406a4fe9234\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e7e418ad43d45f398bc4406a4fe9234\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (National\u2014Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Speaking to the point of order\u2014thank you, Mr Speaker. The issue was that the Labour speaker just before the dinner break had a 10-minute call, and so, as a result of that, that took the entire call No. 6, as it was, on the run sheet at that point, which then meant, after the dinner break recommenced, it should have commenced with National Party call No. 7 being a 10-minute call. Because now we\u2019re seeing the call going instead to the M\u0101ori Party and Green Party, and if we don\u2019t then have call Nos 8 and 9, then we would be disadvantaged in terms of the allocation of calls. I can understand what Mr McAnulty said, but it was a 10-minute call, not a five-minute split call, and so that\u2019s the difference, because obviously now we would miss out on the allocation we should be entitled to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022dedb35589445478a80377226f3f16da6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dedb35589445478a80377226f3f16da6\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. My recollection of what the Speaker said was that the 4\u00BD minutes remaining on the Labour Party call could be taken after the dinner break.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00225ea231520c9740e58067ab8109339f80\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ea231520c9740e58067ab8109339f80\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. As I mentioned in the original point of order, the arrangement was made with the Speaker to explain the situation. The issue with the clock is not uncommon. Ingrid Leary sat down after five minutes, because that was the start of the maiden speeches. She had full rights to continue on but sat down on the assumption it was five minutes. That\u2019s because of the maiden speeches. That\u2019s how we carried on. This is easily resolved. If the Green Party took their five-minute call in call No. 10, we wouldn\u2019t; the National Party don\u2019t lose out, we have our full allocation, and it ends up as exactly the same speaking spots as originally intended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a28377acf1145769b97513651aa40b6\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking further to that, Mr Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022035eef4dbdfc4db9af448d80fc0bd2fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022035eef4dbdfc4db9af448d80fc0bd2fa\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Hold on a second. I\u2019m just going to take some advice. So I\u2019ve taken some advice, and according to the Standing Orders, parties have the ability to negotiate work between themselves about how the twelve 10-minute calls can be made. I take the Hon Kieran McAnulty\u2019s word for it that that was an arrangement that was made with the Speaker. So I guess we can add a five-minute call somewhere in there. I guess that is what we will do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022074eb2b457fb4386aea04132e8ee872c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022074eb2b457fb4386aea04132e8ee872c\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. I believe all that needs to happen, Mr Speaker, is for the Green Party to take one of the two split calls on call No. 10. That will then even it all out. The Labour Party took five minutes, which was intended for call No. 10. The earlier split call was between Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori and the Green Party. If we just do a swap with the Greens instead of Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori as originally intended, it\u2019ll all come out even.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe2a356cb9ec4f759a8e09e7b5eb9ce1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe2a356cb9ec4f759a8e09e7b5eb9ce1\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: So your solution is you take the split call now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022f1e1c9c33ca94db4966b8d571fe7e269\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f1e1c9c33ca94db4966b8d571fe7e269\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E We\u2019re done. We did ours before the dinner break. Outstanding, at the moment, is the Green Party. If they take our slot on call No. 10, it\u2019ll all come out even.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022504f9c970e6a46e9910ba321f6b603f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022504f9c970e6a46e9910ba321f6b603f5\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: I think the ruling here is that the Green Party split call will be at slot No. 10, so get ready to jump up. I think that\u2019s the best way to move forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022 data-id=\u002223ec204d78f740228df417f3c48f8f02\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002223ec204d78f740228df417f3c48f8f02\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (National\u2014Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Speaking to that, the issue is, though, that it\u2019s recorded now as being on speech No. 7, not on the second half of speech No. 6. And that was quite clearly because, just prior to the dinner break, the Speaker in the Chair made it very clear that Miss Leary had 4\u00BD minutes remaining on her call, which she could take once we resumed, if she chose to. So it was very clear in the Speaker\u2019s mind that it was not a split call, that it was a full 10-minute allocation, and that she had used more than half of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00226efd262314374bfa9ab576f83777f5df\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226efd262314374bfa9ab576f83777f5df\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: But, in order to move the business of the House forward\u2014I mean, I wasn\u2019t there when they had that discussion, which I hope you will appreciate. And the best way forward, with my understanding of the Speakers\u2019 rulings, is that parties are able to negotiate how they split that those twelve 10-minute calls. I take the Hon Kieran McAnulty\u2019s word on it. This is the best way to move forward. The Green Party will take the split call at slot No. 10. I call the next speaker\u2014David MacLeod.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022 data-id=\u00227906722435614ccfbe189ad8f1acc5f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227906722435614ccfbe189ad8f1acc5f7\u0022\u003EDAVID MacLEOD (National\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. May I first start by telling the member from Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori that I\u2019m very happy to be on this side of the House\u2014certainly just after that\u2014and that\u2019s because we need to unleash the potential of our country. The recent changes made affect our ability to subdivide land, to build houses, to establish businesses, or just simply dig a hole in the ground. We have become a country constipated by bureaucracy. That\u2019s right. It\u2019s affecting people\u2019s lives, people who are simply wanting to get ahead. I repeat: we need to unleash the true potential of our country. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00225cfa576330ec4cc4bdb98b3b997e6acc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225cfa576330ec4cc4bdb98b3b997e6acc\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. The situation we\u2019re in now is that we\u2019re in, obviously, the second reading of this bill and that would have been normally, in normal times, the time where we speak to the select committee process and what people had to say. What we do know from the original select committee process from the Act that this bill intends to repeal, or the Acts, is that there was a broad recognition that the Resource Management Act (RMA) was no longer fit for purpose, and there was a discussion, not so much as to whether there needed to be reform, but the details of that reform. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThat is what puzzles me about this. It goes back to a system that was broadly recognised as being unsuitable. It goes back to a system where local government, industry\u2014in particular, construction\u2014was saying that it did not enable them to do what the Government is using as a rationale for repealing it. They said that they couldn\u2019t get on with their business. They said that they couldn\u2019t do what they needed to do, that it was cumbersome, that it got in the way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EWhen you consider there are 71 district councils across the country and, under the RMA, each had a slightly different interpretation of how the rules could be applied, it is possible, and it was common, that tradespeople would have to go about things one way in one district and about things in a different way 10 minutes down the road, and that just didn\u2019t make sense. But nor does what\u2019s being proposed here today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EWhy on earth would we go back to a system that, if we think back to the 2017 election, both major parties, the Labour Party and the National Party, said that the RMA was no longer fit for purpose and wanted to do something about it? I think I remember a few pledges of a bipartisan approach to this. But what this bill proposes is to go back to exactly that: a system that was designed in 1991 and has been added to and become a massive beast and was cumbersome and didn\u2019t take into account the realities of a modern world. Why on earth would we go back to that without something to replace it with? I don\u2019t quite get that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIf there are elements to the Natural and Built Environment Act and the Spatial Planning Act, why on earth don\u2019t we take the time to look at that and improve it? It seems to be counter to the whole point of a select committee process, this parliamentary process where regardless of what individual MPs or their party\u2019s views on a particular proposal are, they use a select committee process to improve a bill. And the good parliamentarians amongst us, even if they know ultimately their party will vote against the bill when it gets reported back to the House, will use that time to try and improve it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EI\u2019m puzzled as to why that principle that so many members in this House, including on the other side, on the Government side, in my time here, have worked constructively to try and improve something\u2014I struggle to understand the rationale here. I know that members, or some members\u2014not many of them are taking a full call today, which in itself is interesting and I\u2019m sure we\u2019ll explore more at the committee of the whole House stage. But ultimately, why wouldn\u2019t we just touch on the things that they feel didn\u2019t work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EBecause I actually don\u2019t think that they believe that the whole thing has to go. Sayings about babies and bathwaters come to mind. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b69a34134a594fbc96184bcab2f9b9b5\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re open to taking aspects of the laws.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec84c7b95fab4d8d8f981de9027301ec\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: Why wouldn\u2019t we improve it? And the call is from the other side \u201CWe\u2019re open to that.\u201D Why aren\u2019t we doing it now? I want to know why they didn\u2019t take up the Hon Rachel Brooking\u2019s offer to approach this in a bipartisan way and try and improve things, as opposed to throwing it out on a promise that they will then start working on something else. I actually can\u2019t think of an example where something\u2019s been repealed in the context of an acknowledgment that something has to be done to go back to a system that wasn\u2019t working on a promise that one day they\u2019ll get round to doing something about that. Why don\u2019t we do that first? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s the essence of my point: why on earth aren\u2019t we doing that first? Why are we rushing through under urgency something that\u2019s going to take us back to what it was? The speakers that have contributed to this have said that they want business to just be able to get on with things, that they want to provide certainty. I can\u2019t understand how going back to a system that they know wasn\u2019t working is providing certainty. If anything, it is uncertain what\u2019s going to ultimately replace what this bill is replacing the Act with. We\u2019ve got two or three steps ahead of us here. Nobody knows what on earth is coming, and that is not certainty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EWhat I did here, in my travels around the country speaking to district councils, was that, yep, some of them had some concerns about what was being proposed, but they also absolutely acknowledged that the Resource Management Act was no longer fit for purpose. The whole idea of having a region-wide approach is that once things had been agreed, there was certainty for business, certainty for ordinary Kiwis that might be wanting to build a home or might be wanting to put up a shed or any of the normal things that require a consent. They can go in the streamlined approach: here\u2019s the parameters that are agreed; if you fit within those, get on with it. That makes sense\u2014that makes sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EI think it was fair for local government to register a concern about what they deemed to be a dilution of their local input. That had to be balanced up, of course, with the similar calls from the local government sector to say that simply many of them didn\u2019t have the resources to be able to comply with what was required under the Resource Management Act. That problem\u2019s not going to go away. There are many small rural and provincial councils who have a very small ratepayer base, who are now about to face massive escalations and costs because the Government has indicated they want to repeal the affordable water reforms without any indication as to what it\u2019s going to be replaced with or indeed how it\u2019s going to work. And incidentally, while I\u2019m on that point, I noticed the Hon Simeon Brown can\u2019t guarantee that balance sheet separation is going to be a part of it. He said it might be included or may be included or something\u2014the crucial element.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019ve got a situation where local councils were previously struggling under the RMA, because of the cost burdens and their inability with their ratepayer base to pay for and allocate the resources that are required to do consenting. And now the additional costs that are about to come down because of the water reforms. That concerns me. Councils have been asked over successive Governments over many generations to increase the level of service to their communities, but they haven\u2019t had the ability to be able to expand their revenue streams and revenue bases, and this is just another example. No one\u2019s saying it was perfect\u2014perhaps Rachel Brooking. Other than her, no one was saying\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b46f13d6ff7a481db52011e1e10bbd86\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Not even me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df2705c740f34d7dba74d0fc7f3f58b7\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s tongue in cheek, because, as you may have realised, as the House may have seen, the Hon Rachel Brooking is incredibly passionate about this, and I want to commend the amount of work you put into there. Because this is the member\u2019s area of expertise and she dove right into it. She took on board the concerns that had been registered with us, with the local councils, with farmers, with various stakeholders, and made a genuine attempt to try and improve it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIn fact, I think it\u2019s fair to say that many of the concerns that have been raised today by the Government, raised in justification of doing this\u2014I\u2019m yet to hear a justification about urgency, but certainly justification repealing it\u2014had been addressed by the member when she was Minister. So I do want to acknowledge that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a fair question. We want to know what this will be replaced with and I don\u2019t think it\u2019s good enough for the House or for the general public to have a response that is simply, \u201CWe\u2019ll get to it, but we\u2019ve got to get rid of this now.\u201D I don\u2019t think that washes, and it would have been incredibly interesting to have heard the feedback from the public. The reason I mentioned water reforms before\u2014and I\u2019ll mention it again now\u2014is because it\u2019s actually quite similar. Originally, there was a large amount of concern about the water reforms. Some changes were made, and then there was actually quite a lot of support, particularly from the local government sector. In fact, I had mayors, that were previously opposed getting in touch with me, asking to go first because the changes had improved it. I believe that\u2019s exactly the same with the changes that the Hon Rachel Brooking had made to this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ESo it would\u2019ve been incredibly interesting to hear the feedback at the select committee process to actually gauge if that view had changed. I think that there is a genuine possibility, a real possibility, that some submitters that submitted originally expressing concerns, now that they\u2019ve seen the changes, would come back and say, \u201CActually, this is much better now\u201D, or, the more relevant question is: OK, you might not have liked what the previous Government proposed, but how do you feel about going back to the thing you didn\u2019t like in the first place? That\u2019s a fair question, and that is a question that could have been teased out at select committee. This bill would have been improved as a result of that, but we haven\u2019t had that opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThe only opportunity that we have now is in the committee of the whole House stage, and we may as well register our interest early. This side of the House have a lot of questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022 data-id=\u0022d1e7f89294ba4e058902038c42f6cbbb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d1e7f89294ba4e058902038c42f6cbbb\u0022\u003EMIKE BUTTERICK (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I speak, again, in support of the repeal of this Act, an Act that would be the biggest impediment to getting anything done in this country. This Act would not be a step forward for economic development nor the environment, and it would do very little to get New Zealand back on track.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003EIn addition, this Act demonstrates contempt for basic property rights, and the change from a facts-based regime to an outcomes-based approach further weakens respect for private property. The existing Act does nothing to support New Zealand\u2019s productivity, and it also does very little to support the rapid development of urgently needed housing. I look forward to the repeal of this Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00222e5ad989d39e4fbba39272eeb7e207ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e5ad989d39e4fbba39272eeb7e207ab\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: I call Steve Abel. Just before you start, because of the misbalance of the call, there is four minutes, 30 seconds on the clock. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022562c0844e8194e3a8ade6bf986d73ad0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022562c0844e8194e3a8ade6bf986d73ad0\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, thank you, Mr Speaker, and I acknowledge your ascension to that noble seat, if we can call it that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EI submitted on this bill myself. I gave three whole submissions on it, numerous written submissions as a part of Mana R\u0101kau, the tree protection organisation. What strikes me is the number of conscientious New Zealanders who participated in the legislative process\u2014which was extensive\u2014and gave their feedback on our pre-eminent environmental protection legislation, and all of the nuanced efforts that were made by people within this House to get this legislation right, to take us on an important step that improves from where we were in the Resource Management Act 1991, to where we are now in the Natural and Built Environment Act 2023. All those months and years, and thousands of submitters and participants, and this Government throws it out in one day. For me, it makes a mockery of the legislative process. My friends in Mana R\u0101kau, who won back general tree protection that was put out by the John Key Government in 2009\u2014they feel like they are back to the drawing board again. Because general tree protection, again, is being thrown out with this legislation, this repeal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EIn the struggle to protect our biodiversity and our climate, it is a rare day that we see a lucid piece of legislative framework that actually places the priorities right, and one of those is Te Mana o te Wai, the coming into force of which this legislation is delaying. Now, that means years more\u2014I think until 2027\u2014delay in taking action in protecting our precious water. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EIt was extraordinary today to hear the answer from the environment Minister that she did not support the National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management in 2020. Let\u2019s be clear what that is: putting first the health and wellbeing of water bodies and freshwater ecosystems.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab83e06ffe204641a9e534e880bc1e25\u0022\u003EJames Meager\u003C/span\u003E: Over everything else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d39951754cf4ec7ac606479a6d393e9\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: That is\u2014over everything else. My friend, when you realise that everything we\u2019ve been doing for the last 20, 30, 50, 100 years has led to the biodiversity crisis we face now, we need a sea change in the way that we approach the protection of the environment. That\u2019s exactly putting protection of water bodies first. I would also say that that same Minister said that she did not support putting the health and needs of people\u2014such as drinking water\u2014she did not agree with looking after that, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThe most important thing is that we take a step towards treating the intrinsic value of nature, recognise the intrinsic value of nature. This legislation took us on this step. This repeal takes us back the other way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EI should say, Mr Speaker, that it is absolutely consistent with how this Government has indicated it wants to proceed in its time. It is a Government for destruction of the environment. It is a Government that has already laid out that its legacy will be a degradation and a destruction of the environment. It loves the fast-track component of the legislation because that allows it to fast track mining on conservation land. It allows it to fast track the drilling of our oceans. It allows it to fast track the bulldozing of roads through wetlands and through ancient rainforests. In a time when we know the scale of the challenge the planet faces with climate change and biodiversity loss, it is a shame on the history of this House that we have a Government that is so retrograde and so hell-bent on destruction of our environment. We oppose this repeal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u002228f08ae95062411d92641ddab53c58e8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002228f08ae95062411d92641ddab53c58e8\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E E te M\u0101ngai e te Whare. Mr Speaker, let me start by congratulating you on your ascension to your promoted role. It is my privilege to speak in support of this repeal bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EEverybody in this House knows that the Resource Management Act 1991 is in desperate need of reform. Where the divide is\u2014this Act, that we are repealing today, is not the solution to that. It would have made it more complex, more legalistic, harder to actually get things done and get things developed in this country. Let me speak to those directly at home and let me guarantee to those at home that our intentions our very clear. Our intentions are very clear to develop a law that is less bureaucratic, less complex, that improves local decision-making, and helps us meet our decarbonisation goals as a country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EThat is what we are committed to on this side of the House and it is my privilege to commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022d289c407d54d457e88fd6da652d0a960\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d289c407d54d457e88fd6da652d0a960\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Can I first acknowledge the maiden speeches made earlier today, and of course all of the maiden speeches for the 54th Parliament. I take heart from the members on the Government benches, who, in most of the speeches I\u2019ve heard, use words like \u201Ckaitiakitanga\u201D, \u201Cwairua\u201D. They are using the very words that their own Government is saying causes too much confusion, yet they stand in this House and say that they base their principled approach to coming into Parliament on words like \u201Ckaitiakitanga\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EHere we are looking at kaitiakitanga and te Oranga o te Taiao which I will come to very shortly. We heard from the Minister a little bit earlier talking about the recognition of tikanga in law. I want to read for the Minister a little something from the Supreme Court / Te K\u014Dti Mana Nui o Aotearoa. The Supreme Court has recently affirmed \u201Cthat tikanga M\u0101ori can be a source of enforceable rights and interests, and is relevant to developing the common law. Tikanga is also recognised in various ways through many Acts of Parliament\u201D. And that says that we actually have the ability to look towards a model of tikanga or in this case, with respect to this bill, te Oranga o te Taiao, the wellbeing of our natural surroundings\u2014things that I\u2019ve heard in maiden speeches right across the House, not just in the 54th Parliament; the 53rd, 52nd, 51st\u2014my entire time here. So te Oranga o te Taiao isn\u2019t a new concept. Te Oranga o te Taiao is also a concept that has been evolved over many, many decades, in many, many pieces of legislation as well as many court rulings. The Supreme Court makes it very clear that tikanga M\u0101ori is part of the evolution of the relationship of Te Tiriti o Waitangi. That\u2019s what\u2019s being lost here with the proposal in this particular repeal bill; that\u2019s being lost. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve heard members from the other side of the House talk about ruling for all and talking about making sure that they represent their constituents. Well, I look forward to some of them going back to the iwi in their district to make sure that they represent all of the people in their rohe, to make sure that their voices are being heard on this important bill. Sadly, that\u2019s not going to happen because it is being rushed through the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWe know that this is a big piece of work. We also know that there\u2019s lots of work to be done in terms of the relationships between iwi and the Crown, and this particular bill undermines it. The fact is that we don\u2019t have a regulatory impact statement, that we are unable to engage with organisations and Public Service departments, the likes of Te Arawhiti, to understand what the M\u0101ori perspective is on this; to understand the amount of work that they\u2019ve put into this particular bit of legislation that\u2019s being repealed today. Because what\u2019s not quantified in this piece of work is the goodwill from M\u0101ori to make sure that we look after our natural environment; that\u2019s not being spoken about here. Yes, we want to look towards the opportunities of being able to make sure that we can build into the future, that we can protect our natural environments into the future, but what we\u2019re not looking at and what we\u2019re not talking about is actually the slap in the face to many iwi who, through goodwill, sat with local government, sat with central government, sat with many Government departments in order to have something that was workable and recognised their rights as well as the rights of the entire community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI\u2019m looking forward to members\u2014and I\u2019ve heard them call out Mr Rutherford and a good friend of mine Mr Luxton at the back there\u2014heading back to the Bay of Plenty and sitting down with Ng\u0101ti Ranginui, Ng\u0101i Te Rangi, Ng\u0101ti P\u016Bkenga to talk through exactly what\u2019s happening here. Because what this repeal bill does, too, is it can\u2019t help but make M\u0101ori think that, actually, wait, there\u2019s more to come. If I think about the representation across local government in this country\u2014because what this does is it puts a lot of the emphasis back into the local government space, and I\u2019m OK with that, but local government have already made it clear that, you know what, for the most part, they have a very good relationship with their iwi; others don\u2019t. What this tells iwi and what this tells M\u0101ori in this country is that who knows what\u2019s around the corner? Is this Government going to repeal M\u0101ori wards legislation, once again minimising M\u0101ori voice at the local government level? I\u2019m looking forward to hearing contributions from my tuakana and T\u0101maki-makau-rau resident Mr Dan Bidois about what this means for the iwi M\u0101ori statutory board in T\u0101maki-makau-rau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI\u2019m looking forward to hearing from the Minister: what does this mean for tribes that are yet to settle their dispute with the Crown? What does this mean for the tribes that are currently negotiating with the Crown? How does that impact on their ability to make sure that they get fair rights when resource management in their own district, their own rohe, is considered? These are matters that, sadly, we could not discuss, debate, or hear from experts on because of this rushed process in something that is so significant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThis bill literally takes M\u0101ori-Crown relations back to 1991. Back to 1991; that\u2019s what this bill does. For example, it says in here it repeals \u201Cto go back to iwi authority\u201D. Well, I\u2019m going to ask Mr Bishop in the committee stage of this House: how many iwi have been created under legislation in this House? How many iwi are now officially recognised since 1991, and how many are yet to be officially recognised through settlements in this House? I bet you that side won\u2019t be able to tell me. I bet you that side will not be able to tell me, and that makes me really sad. It makes me sad because of the goodwill M\u0101ori have had to make sure that they can protect the taiao. It\u2019s quite clear. When we make these decisions we\u2019ve got to make sure that tribes like Mr Seymour\u2019s tribe, Ng\u0101ti R\u0113hia\u2014Ng\u0101ti R\u0113hia who has an agreement with the local council in the Far North but doesn\u2019t have one with the regional council because of the refusal of the regional council. Now what we\u2019re doing is limiting their rights. Ng\u0101ti R\u0113hia\u2014Mr Seymour\u2019s own tribe; the descendants of T\u0101reha. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m looking forward to making sure that the Minister answers those questions so that the rest of the country can hear exactly what\u2019s going on in this piece of legislation. This bill will set M\u0101ori- Crown relationships back decades; it will set them back decades. In fact, if Mr Seymour and Mr Bishop want to have a look at the Resource Management Act 1991 (RMA) they\u2019ll see what determines an iwi authority and they\u2019ll know through the settlements that they\u2019ve been part of in the nine years they\u2019ve been in Parliament, which is the same time as mine, that those have actually changed; the definition has actually changed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe Ng\u0101 Hapu o Ng\u0101ti Porou legislation is another example of how that relationship has evolved and, yes, while in this repeal bill we might look towards protecting Ng\u0101 Hapu o Ng\u0101ti Porou, what about all the others? What about all of the other iwi who have come and sat in the gallery of this House and listened to speakers from all across this House talk about how right it is to make sure that we correct the injustices of the past? They\u2019ve sat in this House and listened to speakers talk about why it is important that we work together and maintain strong Crown relationships. That\u2019s what this bill is going to do: it is going to set those relationships back decades. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI also look forward to exploring even more, through the committee stage of the House, the impact that this has on T\u0101maki-makau-rau, the consideration of the super-city legislation, and the fact that, as we look through the super-city legislation and what it affords M\u0101ori, it pretty much contradicts what\u2019s in here, sending us back to the RMA of 1991. That\u2019s just not good enough. All of that, we\u2019ll have the good opportunity from my colleagues on this side of the House to make sure that the Government answers these questions because the people of Aotearoa New Zealand deserve to hear it\u2014the very people that members on that side of the House claim to represent, all people in Aotearoa New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EOn this side of the House, we are opposed to this. We extended the olive branch to say, \u201CLet\u2019s do this in the bipartisan way.\u201D And I can say that, through the process of the committee of the whole House, amendments will be put on this Table and it will be recorded whether or not this Government supports it. Because this side of the House is quite clear on what needs to happen in order for this country to not only, one, advance its interests economically but, two, protect its environment. That\u2019s the challenge that we\u2019ll be putting to this Government. I do not commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab9a16139a294a358d2cc7bbdb28dd0d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab9a16139a294a358d2cc7bbdb28dd0d\u0022\u003EKATIE NIMON (National\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m pleased to be speaking on the second reading of this bill, because overregulation is not the best way to achieve outcomes. I have examples in my electorate of where these Acts are actually getting in the way of progress of building houses and renewable energy. It is time we stopped playing the game of political \u201Cwhack-a-mole\u201D, and with that, I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a70bf00f86884d11a57d11eeb1aba0ea\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Resource Management (Natural and Built Environment and Spatial Planning Repeal and Interim Fast-track Consenting) Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000744\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022819a31f7454d43b0b14cdb008baadaa6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022819a31f7454d43b0b14cdb008baadaa6\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for consideration of the Resource Management (Natural and Built Environment and Spatial Planning Repeal and Interim Fast-track Consenting) Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ea08e0c682a04150b43cf088b9cf58c1\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002248e2decf589045b99fcc7a3f363ad860\u0022\u003EPart 1  Preliminary provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u002270eefbdda79449fe843af9693e42491d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270eefbdda79449fe843af9693e42491d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Resource Management (Natural and Built Environment and Spatial Planning Repeal and Interim Fast-track Consenting) Bill. We start with the debate on Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022c376b0df147442119b6691434c2632ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c376b0df147442119b6691434c2632ac\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. Mr Chair, if I may, I\u2019d like to draw your attention to Standing Order 310, which states that the purpose of a committee stage is to determine whether the bill as returned from the second reading expresses the objects and principles of the bill\u2014it\u2019s not actually to have a policy debate, it\u2019s to decide whether the text returned from the second reading will achieve what was agreed to. And I just wonder if you might bear that in mind in concurrence with Standing Order 112 about relevancy, because we could spend a huge amount of time with people trying to prove a point, but it\u2019s not clear what they\u2019ve proved other than used up a lot of Parliament\u2019s valuable time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u00226d0df9305a60430fbaf3165b5ec991bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d0df9305a60430fbaf3165b5ec991bf\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E Speaking to the point of order. Mr Chair, obviously this bill is proceeding under urgency; there\u2019s been no select committee stage, and for that reason I would expect there to be more scrutiny during the committee stage of each part of this bill than there would for a bill that was passing not under urgency, that had had a normal select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6ba92fae8d34478aefbd0a28e0cb364\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6ba92fae8d34478aefbd0a28e0cb364\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Speaking to that\u2014I can see why the member might wish to say that, but there\u2019s actually no authority and she can\u2019t quote one to support why that is a relevant matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u002243bd3d215c134ae2bff84705ec611d66\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243bd3d215c134ae2bff84705ec611d66\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chair, I find it extraordinary that a point of order would be made questioning the content and contributions at this stage before anything had been made. I\u2019m sure you in your capacity are more than able to judge relevancy and whether or not it is compliant with Standing Orders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00228d626db913ae4fb2ba957f2125b426f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d626db913ae4fb2ba957f2125b426f6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you to members for all their contributions. I do hear what members opposite are saying in terms of there being no select committee process and the real important need to scrutinise the bill and also hear from Government members, as well as the need for relevancy and for us to focus on part to part. I guess the role of the Chair here is to make sure that we strike that balance, and we can do that by starting to listen to some of the contributions from members, but just being mindful to members that are critiquing the bill\u2014as returned\u2014to really try to focus on the specific parts as well. Thank you. OK, Part 1, debate on clauses 3 and 4\u2014Preliminary provisions\u2014and Schedule 1. The question is that Part 1 start part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022c23654fb9fb04f058c9ed0d0c804771a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c23654fb9fb04f058c9ed0d0c804771a\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Following on from that little point of order discussion, I do want to note, of course, that we don\u2019t have a regulatory impact statement and we haven\u2019t had the select committee process. I heard the Minister say earlier that everything has been traversed already when we went through the process with the bills that then became Acts that are now being repealed. So I am hopeful that the Minister will take an approach that I think has been different from some of his colleagues and answers a lot of our questions, Mr Bishop, because that will add to the flow, and I am encouraging of that so that of course we are earnest with our relevancy and seek to go through the bill quite carefully. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI say that for a number of reasons: one is I have written to the Minister today stating our position, which is of course it would be best not to be here at all today discussing the repeal of the bills and that if there are particular concerns that the Government has, that it would be better to do some legislation to pause the commencement of the new legislation whilst it was reviewed. So that remains our position, but in that spirit, I will ask some questions, and I would like a response from the Minister about his plan for how he wants to deal with this committee stage, given that the bill has only got two parts and it has got two schedules. There are some very small things that we could raise\u2014so, for instance, there seems to be a drafting stylistic\u2014[Interruption] Look, sorry\u2014there is a lot of interjections in this House, and I\u2019ve experienced this last week as well. We are here in good faith trying to work out what these issues are, and we have a point of order that speeches are not to Mr Seymour\u2019s liking\u2014we are entitled to make these speeches. But my point is, this has not gone through a select committee process. It is always a complicated\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd74243ef8544547b87b7cc9961836db\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s gone through an election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222aee34b1c8e3455cbdb3bef3cfb593de\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, it\u2019s gone through an election. It has not\u2014that is a terrible, frustrating thing. Electors do not vote on the word-for-word of laws, and that is why we have the very good public process, which I thought Mr Seymour was a fan of, that we could go through and have a proper process through select committees, and even if points are in\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac146fea727f466e8b32f6e514ac9a16\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Mr Chair, the current member\u2019s contribution is exactly what I was concerned about. She\u2019s spent a huge amount of time talking about me and the process and procedure. She still hasn\u2019t asked a single question about whether the bill as returned from the second reading is fit to serve the principles and objects of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259750fac8709473cabc06b126c6acf1d\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order. Mr Seymour may well be aware that the reason the speaker\u2014the Hon Rachel Brooking\u2014began mentioning Mr Seymour was because he interjected, and his interjection was responded to by the member; that is commonplace in the House. In fact, I\u2019ve seen it in the House extend out debates for a considerable period. Mr Seymour might want to reflect on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b78c844dff14f3cade72332f3e3bb8e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Just speaking to this point of order\u2014we have to keep these interjections down so that we can actually hear the contributions from members. I note there\u2019s a lot of amendments here that will form parts of our discussion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d255d1a3039d4cec99260efe516c64e1\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. So my point that I was trying to make is that there are some small issues\u2014there are drafting issues, for instance, whereby a clause is referred to as a clause rather than a section in the bill, where normally past Parliamentary Counsel Office drafting is to refer to a section rather than a clause, I can give some examples of that. Then there are some substantial matters, so that includes \u201Cthe fast tracking is to continue.\u201D, and so I think it is important that we drill down into what is being extended, what is being continued in that fast tracking. I\u2019ve heard comments in various different speeches in the second reading that there will be some extension to fast tracking to include mining\u2014so that goes to the definition of what is an eligible activity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E Then, of course, a lot of the schedules to the bill are very boring, and they are simple straightforward replacements of names of Acts. I have no intention of focusing on those, but then there\u2019s also some things where it\u2019s unclear what the change is. We have only just seen this bill today, so I think it would be useful\u2014and I\u2019m interested in the Minister\u2019s response. This is the question: how the Minister intends to respond to this proceeding, this committee stage\u2014it would be good to be able to go through those changes where we don\u2019t have all the bits of legislation in front of us to see what has changed or not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen there are some important changes that would be easy to miss\u2014so we have at page\u00A0105 of my version of bill that section 80A\u2014the date changes from 2024 to 2027 and that\u2019s in relation to the National Policy Statement on Freshwater Management. So there\u2019s a range of things that we can consider, some I think we should spend some detail in, and I\u2019m interested in how the Minister intended to proceed in the committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u002204ab2357eb404b3c87d3c4b25d2ece52\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204ab2357eb404b3c87d3c4b25d2ece52\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. To take the member\u2019s somewhat convoluted questions in turn: how do I propose to deal with the committee stage? Well, I propose to deal with the committee stage in the same way that other Ministers deal with committee stages. The House is in committee; members will ask questions; I will attempt to answer them; and we will work our way through the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIn relation to what the member says around the simplicity of the bill, she is right. It is actually a relatively simple and straightforward bill. Despite what members may have said in the earlier parts of the debate, what we are doing is, basically, going back to what the status quo was prior to the passage of the Natural and Built Environment Act and the Spatial Planning Act, which only happened three or four months ago. In fact, there are members in the committee right now who were integral to the passage of that. So we all know about what happened three or four months ago. What we are doing is unpicking that, because, at the election, the Government sought a mandate to repeal both Acts, and we are now proceeding to implement that mandate. So the bill is quite a simple bill, basically. It repeals both Acts. It puts in place a range of saving mechanisms where that is necessary and appropriate\u2014most notably in relation to the fast track, which the member mentioned as well. We are saving, for people to use, the fast-track mechanism that the previous Government put in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIn relation to the member\u2019s final question about the extension of time for fresh water, that\u2019s a very simple change. It\u2019s as advertised: 31 December 2024 was the status quo; if this bill proceeds through the committee of the whole House and third reading, the new deadline for regional councils will be 31\u00A0December 2027. So it\u2019s just a three-year extension and the Government\u2019s made its policy intention in relation to that clear, and there will be more to say about that in due course. But this is just part one of our changes to freshwater management.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u00229fcaae8315ca4289b4061090e8051449\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229fcaae8315ca4289b4061090e8051449\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chairman. I have some questions that further go into what the Minister has just alluded to in that answer around the transitional arrangements, specifically the fast-track consenting processes in clause 8 that are laid out there. The Minister actually referred to some of this in an earlier reading speech around renewable energy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI have a very simple question for the Minister. He said in an earlier statement that a wind farm in Wellington\u2014M\u0101kara\u2014took eight years to consent. I\u2019m interested to know what he means by that. Does he mean from time of lodgment of the consent? Does he mean time of appeal in the Environment Court? What is the process he is describing? This is a pertinent question because this goes\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245de9be3685d42fd9ae803383d474640\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Which part is this in, Mr Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7a2ca3cca454b1f999bda75ba52bcee\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s Part 1, Mr Seymour, as in terms of the transitional provisions and the fast-track consenting process in Schedule 1 of the Act, which pertains to Part 1 of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe problem definition that National and the Government are using around this is: \u201COne of the reasons we have to repeal this legislation is because there is going to be too much bureaucratic red tape, so what we\u2019re going to do is we\u2019re going to repeal the thing that you put in place to speed up consenting infrastructure projects and go back to the thing that, actually, we\u2019re arguing held things back, but we\u2019ll just keep your fast-track stuff in place.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo, specifically the wind farm the Minister mentioned in an earlier contribution, I\u2019d just like some detail around that. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022019e205ee6b149bf868408d67995c577\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022019e205ee6b149bf868408d67995c577\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you to the member for that very good question. The wind farm that we\u2019re talking about is the one at M\u0101kara, it\u2019s Meridian\u2019s West Wind facility. From memory, it\u2019s 143 megawatts and it, from memory, went through resource consent from 2000 to 2007, it opened in 2008\u2014in fact, the Rt Hon John Key opened it, which I think was a source of much chagrin for the prior Labour Government, which was a strong supporter of the wind farm. But that is a reflection of the quite convoluted resource management processes that apply to renewable energy, and that certainly was the case back in 2000 to 2007. I acknowledge that there have been process improvements made to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022937b99a96e074e0db5d09382bc00c888\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: 2000 to 2008, that\u2019s the RMA.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228792a6fafc044e9b8c0e0f0a7b667dca\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, exactly. And if you listen to what I\u2019m saying, I will acknowledge that there have been process improvements to consenting since then, including by the last National Government. When it comes to renewable energy, we need to go further and faster, which is why this Government\u2019s committed to updating a national policy statement on renewable electricity generation. I acknowledge the work of the prior Labour Government, who had done some initial work on that. We intend to use that and have our own national policy statement on renewable electricity generation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIn relation to why we are keeping fast track, I think that the member has, essentially, answered it for herself, which is that we want to develop our own fast-track consenting regime, but we were faced\u2014as I said in the first reading, I think it was\u2014with a dilemma where if we repeal the Natural and Built Environment Act (NBA) and the Spatial Planning Act without the development and the passage of our own fast-track regime, we will be left in a situation where there wouldn\u2019t be fast track at all. So the simplest thing seemed to be to just save what had been created through the NBA. So with the exception of, as I say, the fast-track consenting regime and a range of other minor technical matters, we are, essentially, repealing all of the NBA but saving the fast track.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022da08aad3f5bf449bb176fe061bd54a3b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da08aad3f5bf449bb176fe061bd54a3b\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. My question is to the Minister responsible for Resource Management Act reform. I\u2019m concerned that scrapping the Natural and Built Environment Act and the Spatial Planning Act, together with the rest of the Government\u2019s work programme puts us on a fast track towards climate chaos, rather than wellbeing for people and planet. I\u2019m concerned that we\u2019ll see destruction of the environment through oil and gas exploration, along with destruction of laws, such as this action to repeal the Natural and Built Environment Act and the Spatial Planning Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EThe Minister has asserted, I think, that we don\u2019t need improved natural and built environment plans to regulate the way in which the regions\u2019 resources will be managed or how environmental limits and targets will be set locally or how to enable infrastructure and development or how to resolve conflicts between outcomes, because the assertion is that the repeal will allow the fast tracking of renewables and just get on with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003ESo cancelling the Natural and Built Environment Act and Spatial Planning Act, whose purposes were to improve the workability and speed of resource consenting and to enable good decision making, is more like a ram raid on our Public Service, because we\u2019ve spent six years of intense work by hundreds of staff; thousands of submissions by iwi, hap\u016B, and numerous stakeholders; and a quarter of a billion dollars\u2014that\u2019s all going down the drain as we take yet another leap backwards towards an out-of-date Resource Management Act. It seems like destruction and a waste.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EAt the same time, the Government of National, ACT, and New Zealand First is sending a signal to the market that electrification of the economy is off the menu, because we\u2019re going to have dependence on oil and gas and the volatile Middle East renewables continuing into the never-never by ending the Clean Car Discount or cutting off funding for active public transport, getting rid of the Government Investment in Decarbonising Industry Fund, and opening up oil and gas here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003ESo the promise of the fast-track provision isn\u2019t any help when demand is being killed off. I\u2019m concerned that the Government is offering us more Ford Ranger utes and continuation of a dirty industry, rather than respect for our rivers and our taiao. So many wind farms are already consented and are not being built and there are issues with our consenting regimes. The bigger question is an opaque market structure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve heard the member suggest that I need to understand the market a bit better, and I agree. I\u2019ve been an adviser to the Electricity Authority and I\u2019ve sat on the Innovation and Participation Advisory Group at the Electricity Authority, and I know I need to know a lot more. But I also ran New Zealand\u2019s first peer-to-peer electricity retail for two years, and like so many attempts to challenge the status quo, we couldn\u2019t break the stranglehold of the big four gen-tailers over the market, which they used to kill off competition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019d like the Minister to address the real problem. It is not the need to fast track renewables. Why change a law we\u2019ve already got, to establish something that already exists?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EWill the Minister commit to reform of the electricity market, to get off his high horse, to challenge a sensible regime, and do something useful and open up the market so we can have real, real competition?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00226b4b10ffa7a94bf482d0d6ac82d7bd71\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226b4b10ffa7a94bf482d0d6ac82d7bd71\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I thank the member for those spirited remarks\u2014somewhat away from the bill, but fair enough, I will attempt to deal with them. Let me take them in reverse order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EOn the electrification, the member asserted that the Government was opposed to, or making electrification of the economy harder. Quite the contrary: we have very bold and ambitious targets around the electrification of the economy because New Zealand\u2019s great comparative advantage is that we have plenty of wind and we have plenty of water and, you know, sometimes we have plenty of sun. Actually, the real issue is how we design a planning system that takes advantage of our abundant renewable resources mixed with our equally abundant non-renewable resources\u2014which we are going to need in the future as we transition to that renewable future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo we are very focused on that and I\u2019ve already made mention of our plans around updating the national policy statement for renewable electricity. There\u2019s a range of work we need to do around transmission and distribution as well. We\u2019ve also committed, through various agreements, to an electric vehicle charging network to supercharge the ability for people to transition to electric vehicles. Happy to talk to the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed33948d84f0427985eef058ae9e562d\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Well, this has gone wide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c237d6e05e5e42378179f369a12aced3\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ccdca4f7c12478a943497008f30f4ee\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: This has gone wide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022177393d7eb354fe8b435d4f2bed77f8e\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m just answering the questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cefe4a460b54a4b9d7b963a4b870094\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263a359b36e814d5886eacbb75c4e4398\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not sure that helps you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d49918d2ba61499ead791be39394aee9\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, it does!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba2f6351c68b42219053fee1191a9912\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: I mean, I\u2019m actually rebutting\u2014OK, well, that\u2019s your view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESecondly, on the cost: yeah, a lot of time and money has been spent on it. I acknowledge that right up front. But, you know, it\u2019s classic sunk cost fallacy. I mean, this is where the last Government got into with the Inter-island Resilience Connection deal\u2014just chucking good money after a failing project in the vague hope that it would be successful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EOn the first point, the member asserted that the intention of the Natural and Built Environment Act (NBA) that we\u2019re repealing was to make things more workable and to improve speed and enable quicker decision making. Yes, that was the intention of the bill, but just because that\u2019s the intention of something doesn\u2019t mean that that is the reality of something. I sat through the select committee process, I\u2019ve talked to a range of experts in the planning and infrastructure space alongside the renewable energy space, and there\u2019s very few people out there who would tell you that the NBA will be an improvement. In fact, most experts say it will do the opposite: it will make things more difficult; it will make life more complex, more complicated; and make it harder to get things done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo yep, the intention of the bill was sound. Most bills that Parliament passes have a good intention. But, you know, as Milton Friedman used to say: you should judge policies by their results, not by their intention, because Government spends a lot of time doing well-intentioned things. Intention is not the point; results matter. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022f607804d6336428bbba1c90c156eef9e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f607804d6336428bbba1c90c156eef9e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Members, just as a reminder\u2014and I do note the enthusiasm in the room and also with the Minister as well\u2014that we\u2019re on the debate on Part 1: clauses 3 and 4, \u201CPreliminary provisions\u201D; and Schedule 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u00226d414e71b9134912b93ca56ebd5de0fe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d414e71b9134912b93ca56ebd5de0fe\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Again, I want to reiterate the difficulty in relation to this bill and I am just a lowly tax lawyer; I\u2019m not a Resource Management Act (RMA) lawyer like some of my esteemed colleagues on this side of the House, or advisers to the Energy Efficiency \u0026amp; Conservation Authority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EBut, actually, one of the important things which was not included, as the Minister knows, because of a Cabinet Office directive, which is not to have a regulatory impact statement. So putting that aside, in order to look at the evidence base as to whether this bill, which is repealing some very important Acts which have only had four months actually in progress, you look to, then, the departmental disclosure statement. I\u2019ve had a lot of experience with departmental disclosure statements. Actually, I was the very first official who did the very first departmental disclosure statement under Jonathan Ayling of the Treasury, and that was for a tax bill\u2014actually was called the foreign tax bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EBut anyway, looking to 2.3 of the departmental disclosure statement, it actually\u2014and I\u2019m not too sure whether this is the right part, but I\u2019m going to speak to it in this part because Part 1 has the transitionary rules\u2014and: \u201CThe extension of the deadline for councils [not] to notify freshwater planning instruments is not covered by the 100-day exemption \u2026 due to time constraints, a RIS was not developed\u201D for this particular bill that we\u2019re taking through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u201CInstead, the Treasury and the Ministry for the Environment have agreed that decisions to change the deadline will be subject to post-implementation assessment in line with other 100-day plan initiatives, and when Cabinet makes further decisions relating to commitments to replace the National Policy Statement (NPS) for Freshwater Management.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ESo my very specific question and short contribution to the Minister is: when will that post-implementation occur? Who will be involved? Will that information be made public? And when can this House\u2014given that we don\u2019t have a select committee process; we are repealing this Act under urgency\u2014expect some transparency in relation to the repeal of this bill and in relation to that NPS of freshwater management?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u002212a5a8239fc54b818162985ffd582899\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002212a5a8239fc54b818162985ffd582899\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Just a further call. One of the things that the Minister mentioned in his last contribution when I asked him a question\u2014or it may have been in response to another member\u2014was the work on the national policy statement (NPS) renewable energy. I have some questions for how the NPS renewable energy intersects with the transitional arrangements that will be laid out, specifically the fast tracking laid out in Schedule 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhat I\u2019d like to know from the Minister is: is the NPS renewable energy that he said his Government has started\u2014does that mean they are not continuing with the work the previous Government had done when, indeed, an NPS renewable energy had been released for consultation? Is the Government starting that work again, or is it a continuation of the work that our Government started many, many months ago?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe other thing I\u2019m interested to know from the Minister, further to the answers he said he believed that M\u0101kara had been applied for in 2000. I\u2019d like to ask the Minister what was applied for in 2000, and who was it applied to? Is he referring to the resource consent to Wellington City Council? I\u2019d just like some more clarity, because one of the problem definitions that both this Minister and the Prime Minister himself have been using is the example of M\u0101kara taking eight years to consent. So I think given that we\u2019re in urgency, I\u2019d like some clarity around exactly what was applied for in 2000, to who, and was that the Wellington City Council consent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022a739fb5ad6f24acaa9dd318463add60c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a739fb5ad6f24acaa9dd318463add60c\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, for the opportunity to contribute to this debate, and congratulations to the Minister in his new role. There are a number of amendments in my name to Part 1\u2014seven, actually\u2014and to be economical with my time, I\u2019ll be talking about four in this contribution that relate to ng\u0101 Mana Whakahono \u0101 Rohe agreements. The House will find those in clause\u2014they are amended by clause 3 of the amendment bill, but they are in clause 11 of Schedule 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo it would be useful, I think, if I quickly give the House the context of what this clause 11 does. This means that for those hap\u016B that have entered into a process for agreeing Mana Whakahono agreements in any given region, this provides a transitional arrangement for them to continue with those arrangements as if they were an iwi authority. Now, the House finds itself in some trouble with this\u2014particularly with those agreements where hap\u016B have entered into them with their regional authority but they cannot, for some other legal reason, be treated as an iwi authority. I have some amendments that will help the Minister to get past this hurdle, and I hope he\u2019ll consider them when we come to the vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe first that I want to speak about is, say, the transitional arrangement of the Mana Whakahono \u0101 Rohe under Part 3 of the Natural and Built Environment Act 2023 entered into by Poutini Ng\u0101i Tahu. That agreement itself was signed on 22 October, but it represents the first in a number of processes for the other r\u016Bnanga, r\u016Bnaka of Ng\u0101i Tahu to enter into regional agreements within their rohe. Because, Mr Chair, you\u2019ll appreciate that for an iwi the size of Ng\u0101i Tahu, their iwi catchment area is almost the whole of Te Waipounamu, but they have a number\u201413, I believe\u2014of r\u016Bnaka, r\u016Bnanga that have primacy than their own regional area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ENow, they are called r\u016Bnaka\u2014you might think of them as hap\u016B and for the effect of this bill, they are being treated as hap\u016B. But this provision in the amendment bill, as proposed, would see them being treated as iwi authorities. They are not iwi authorities. They should not be treated as iwi authorities for the purposes of the Resource Management Act (RMA) because they are not an iwi authority. The iwi authority in Te Waipounamu\u2014for the purposes of the area of the south of the South Island, excluding the top of the south and those iwi that claim primacy in that area\u2014is te iwi o Ng\u0101i Tahu. They have their own constitutional arrangement to share power between the iwi and those r\u016Bnaka, and it would be inappropriate for them to gain the status of iwi in this situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s worth spending a little bit of time in the context for this. Those r\u016Bnaka and the Poutini Ng\u0101i Tahu r\u016Bnaka that entered into those arrangements had the blessing of te iwi o Ng\u0101i Tahu. Te R\u016Bnanga o Ng\u0101i Tahu kaiwhakahaere, Lisa Tumahai commented, on 23 October, that this agreement was the logical next step in developing the relationship: \u201CWhen we think about our history as [an] iwi, it has been quite a journey to get to a position of working with the council in a true sense of partnership. The work we have all done in the past five years, having been on council, we have made big steps forward from the past, and it reflects our growing maturity as iwi [in the] post-settlement [context].\u201D What she\u2019s saying there is that there was an agreement between the iwi and what we would see is for the hap\u016B to lead out with the council in this area. It\u2019s inappropriate for them to take on the role of the iwi, but the iwi came to an arrangement with the hap\u016B that they could share that role.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWhat I want to know from the Minister is: will he consider my amendment to maintain the Poutini Ng\u0101i Tahu agreement that was signed on 22 November in the primary legislation, which is what my amendment would do, and then to explain to the Chamber how he will give effect to those other r\u016Bnaka-level arrangements that will be entered into by the other r\u016Bnaka of Ng\u0101i Tahu.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI would also like the Minister to answer two specific questions for the Chamber before I explain my other amendments related to Mana Whakahono agreements. The first question is: which hap\u016B have started the Mana Whakahono \u0101 Rohe process but are not completed? The second question is: the hap\u016B of Ng\u0101 Puhi do not have the ability to act as an iwi authority and should not be treated as an iwi authority for the purposes of the Resource Management Act; how will the Minister deal with ng\u0101 hap\u016B o Ng\u0101 Puhi who have entered into or intend to enter into a process for Mana Whakahono arrangements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u0022f8f673d4ec34440e9eb15087f919ce0c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f8f673d4ec34440e9eb15087f919ce0c\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe Mr Chair, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. I had a question for the Minister directly related to his previous contribution, I think, which was he mentioned that all the experts were saying that this new legislation was going to be more costly or create more problems than the previous Resource Management Act (RMA), and I was just wondering if he could cite all of the experts he\u2019s referring to, or any of the experts he\u2019s referring to. It\u2019d be interesting to know which experts the Government is listening to, and to have a good sense of how many experts are of this view. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EI found it interesting that the comments on the amount of time it takes to consent a wind farm\u2014we\u2019re referring to a specific example from 2000 to 2008. So now we\u2019re talking nearly 20 years ago and that was under the RMA. So, of course, not under the legislation that\u2019s being repealed today, but rather under the legislation that we\u2019re now going back to and we\u2019re going to have to take a whole\u2014I would presume the Government\u2019s going to have to take a lot more time to come up with the work that\u2019s going to enable renewable electricity to be consented at a faster rate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EMy second question for the Minister relates to the Spatial Planning Act and whether the Minister sees any use in having spatial planning to inform the overall approach to infrastructure and land use or whether that\u2019s something that the Government is completely rejecting and won\u2019t be making use of. Interestingly, in this bill itself, in Schedule 2\u2014I know we\u2019re on Schedule 1\u2014it is the case that under the Auckland super-city legislation, Auckland was required to develop a spatial plan, and my understanding of the Spatial Planning Act, which is being repealed by this legislation, is that it was taking a similar approach. So of course, in this repeal bill we are still retaining spatial planning for Auckland, and that bill was passed under a National-ACT Government. So why is it that the new National-ACT Government is rejecting spatial planning as a whole when it\u2019s clearly needed to have joined up land use and infrastructure?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EI guess I\u2019m really struggling to understand why spatial planning is being retained for the Auckland super-city but not being used for the rest of the country when it\u2019s very clear that whether we\u2019re talking about transmission lines or transport infrastructure and urban development, one of the biggest opportunities for Aotearoa New Zealand is to have a more joined up approach to infrastructure and land use, and that the Spatial Planning Act that\u2019s being repealed by this bill would have enabled that to happen in a more proactive way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EMy final question for the Minister is just about how long he thinks it will take to develop the national guidance for things like renewable electricity generation, like the wind farms that have, you know, been such a focus of the Government in terms of arguing for fast tracking, and yet I suspect that it won\u2019t just be renewable electricity generation and transmission that is being fast tracked, but we\u2019ll see a whole lot of other developments fast tracked, which will probably have a counterproductive impact on our overall carbon emissions. The Minister might remember that, actually, of our total energy emissions, most of them aren\u2019t from electricity, it\u2019s largely from transport fuels and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf9e03e1914c4709ae82825f25dd6296\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: And industrial process heat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f03be69d13e64532b40a365dc0fe23c6\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and industrial process heat. But transport fuels play a huge role\u2014far outweighs electricity in terms of the percentage of energy that is resulting in carbon emissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo if the Government is using the fast-tracking legislation to fast track highways to new suburban developments, which is the most costly, most counterproductive type of transport, infrastructure, and urban development because it\u2019s the highest overall infrastructure cost from a water-transport point of view, locks in households to very high personal transport costs and high emissions, especially when they don\u2019t have electric vehicles\u2014which most New Zealanders don\u2019t have electric vehicles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo question for the Minister: is the fast tracking going to be directed towards things that actually reduce carbon emissions or is it just fast tracking of all infrastructure?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc551a7fc655462e9f68deaac2b946bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc551a7fc655462e9f68deaac2b946bc\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Let me deal with the range of contributions by members, some relevant, some not so much. Let me go in reverse order from the Hon Julie Anne Genter. Which experts? Well, I invite her to go and read the submissions to the select committee. There was a range of select committee submissions from various city councils, renewable energy generators, infrastructure planning experts, planning experts\u2014there\u2019s a whole range of them. The select committee reports are publicly available, as are the submissions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EOn her second question about spatial planning generally. Yes, this Government is interested in spatial planning for the reasons that the member neatly articulates. But I think it\u2019s important we take a coherent approach to it. The last Government\u2019s approach was incoherent in the sense that the Spatial Planning Act was being advanced at the same time as the Government was engaged in quite complex and ever-changing three waters changes, alongside the Future for Local Government reform which put the local government sector into a spin. So it\u2019s not that I\u2019m opposed or we\u2019re opposed to spatial planning\u2014I actually think there is a pathway forward there and I look forward to future conversations around that. In relation to fast track, the member will just have to wait and see the bill as we develop it. We are saving, as has already been noted, the existing fast track in the Natural and Built Environment Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EGoing back to the comments from Arena Williams. Thank you for those remarks. I\u2019m advised that in relation to clause 11 of Mana Whakahono \u0101 Rohe, none have been lodged and so there is nothing that has started that this Act stops. So there is nothing in that sense to protect. It\u2019s just that the bill is essentially a belt and braces approach to say that if one was lodged then it would just be treated as if the Resource Management Act (RMA) in 1991 applied. So it\u2019s just to preserve that ability\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212989d233b3543b2a027638011ed663a\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: When you need an amendment, I can help.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215c56b8e3e1446a58f764d8eadbd6d88\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m happy to have a look\u2014happy to have a look at the amendment. No guarantees we\u2019ll support it, but happy to have a look in the spirit of good faith. It is important that we preserve Treaty settlements. That is a Government commitment. That is something that we are committed to and that is why we are going\u2014we are just repealing what has been passed and going back to the RMA as it was basically four months ago. With the exception of saving the fast track in the Natural and Built Environment Act, there\u2019s no intention to change any arrangements around that. Happy to look at the amendment from the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIn relation to the Hon Megan Woods\u2019 question about the national policy statement on renewable electricity generation\u2014somewhat away from the bill, but, yes, we will have a look at the consultation material put out by the prior Government earlier in 2023. We are going through policy work on that right now, but acknowledge that the outgoing Government was also interested in advancing a national policy statement on renewables.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIn relation to Meridian and West Wind, I don\u2019t have that information. Frankly, I don\u2019t consider it a great use of officials\u2019 time to go away and find that in the short term. It is literally nothing to do with the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022976fefa0b8d544a9b5e83344d53e8e25\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: You and the Prime Minister have been talking about it ad infinitum.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bd1d2c453994b9180ff9543a2c2727c\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, yeah, well, that\u2019s right. It\u2019s a great project and it took too long to develop, but it\u2019s not really relevant to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIn relation to the Hon Barbara Edmonds\u2019 questions in relation to the departmental disclosure statement, she said, \u201CWhen will the post-implementation review be complete?\u201D The answer is next year. Who will be doing it? It will be the Ministry for the Environment and the Treasury, I\u2019m advised. And when will it be made public? Next year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022445b48f4faff4f6481862c0271c297a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022445b48f4faff4f6481862c0271c297a2\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much. I thank the Minister responsible for RMA Reform for the answers to those questions. One of the things that I\u2019m interested in in terms of the transitional provisions that we\u2019re talking about under Part 1 of this bill, and particularly as they pertain to renewable energy, is that the Minister has indicated that this Government is eager to keep in place the fast-track provisions that the previous Government instituted. I can see why: under that scheme, nine solar projects were consented that were three times the output of the Clyde Dam. We have similar kinds of statistics for wind projects. So we can see that, actually, in terms of the problem definition and why the Government is using as a basis for why we\u2019re here today that it takes too long to consent renewable energy as one of the key talking points, both the Minister\u2014and, as I\u2019ve indicated, both in substantive contributions and in heckles across the Chamber\u2014and the Prime Minister use this as the basis of their problem definition, and particularly how long a particular wind farm in Wellington took to consent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhile the Prime Minister and the Minister consistently say eight years, why I have been asking questions is that is simply incorrect. The wind farm that the Minister is talking about and the Prime Minister has been talking about took three years. It took three years from the time that the consent was lodged with the Wellington City Council. This is one of the problems with rushing legislation like this. If the very basis of the problem that both the Minister and the Prime Minister are putting up is the reason why we are here the week before Christmas repealing substantive legislation and they can\u2019t even get the basic facts right, I think it speaks something to the speed at which this Government is going.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EBut I do have a substantive question around the transitional provisions, and what it is is that the fast-track consents are going to be kept in place. The Minister\u2019s party has talked about wanting to increase to 35-year consent periods, and I wonder whether it is the intention of the Minister, when further changes are made and these transitional provisions are carried over, to institute 35-year consents for renewable energy. And, if that is the case, what advice and thought the Minister has already taken or will be taking to how it is that we can avoid people basically sitting on consents to block competitor behaviour, in fact stifling the build-out of the renewable generation\u2014\u201Close it or use it\u201D clauses, if you like. One of the problems, of course, that we have when it comes to things like wind energy is that we have many more projects consented than have been built that are sitting there and not built by the electricity sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo, in terms of those transitional provisions that are in Schedule 1 of the bill, I\u2019d like to know what thought the Minister is likely to give so that we do not create what I do believe would be an unintended consequence in terms of stifling the ability to build out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd0f7c95e1b74e1aa8ceec7d44dd7407\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd0f7c95e1b74e1aa8ceec7d44dd7407\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019d like to follow on from that excellent presentation from the Hon Megan Woods. Four years\u2014four years\u2014I worked on trying to build New Zealand\u2019s first community wind farm, so I have some sympathy with the idea about fast tracking wind in particular. I was looking forward to the Natural and Built Environment Act for the concise direction that it would give local government, who are often unskilled, don\u2019t have the expertise, don\u2019t know how to deal with consents, and would like some clarity and direction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EI do think back to 2010 when the National Policy Statement for Renewable Electricity Generation was subject to a board of inquiry and then submitted to the then National Government with a recommendation that a national environmental standard accompany it to give clarity for renewable generation. That recommendation was not adopted, and as a consequence wind farms that could have been built to provide resilience for out-of-the-way communities have not been built. As a consequence, the wind farm that I was trying to build lost $500,000\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdb80dc6d578416e97dcd70387425b93\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Come back to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb3b26a1777a41f1851a3ac632579095\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014in trying to get through a consenting process that you want us to return to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EI\u2019m really interested in what the Government can do to enable renewables, but let\u2019s look at what\u2019s been thrown out. What\u2019s been thrown out is a focus on working towards positive outcomes rather than avoiding, remedying, and mitigating adverse effects, which has allowed cumulative impacts. That\u2019s been thrown out. Another thing that\u2019s been thrown out is a stronger approach to environmental limits and enabling development within limits through the outcome around ecological integrity. That\u2019s been thrown out. Another thing that\u2019s been thrown out is reducing the risk from natural hazards and climate change and increasing resilience. That\u2019s been thrown out. Another thing that should interest anyone who cares about rural issues\u2014for goodness\u2019 sake!\u2014is the protection of high-quality rural land and elite soils from urban sprawl, which National wants to do. That\u2019s been thrown out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003ESo I have some real concerns about what you\u2019re doing here, and I also really challenge the underlying idea that we can\u2019t build because we don\u2019t have the structure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e8c52c210184dd382ada7f9ea3d8d30\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Come back to the bill, please, Mr Willis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022808d59a438ba444da5c651e16e45d6e8\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Look at the Kawaikawe\u2014sorry, there is a point I\u2019m getting to here, a question that I really do want an answer to\u2014look at all the wind farms, 73 megawatts sitting on, that was given a consent in March 2023; nothing happening. The Puketoi Wind Farm, Mercury\u2014not being built. The Mount Cass\u2014not being built, 93 megawatts, etc. Mahinerangi, quite close to where I live, stage 2 development, up to 164 megawatts\u2014not being built. There are wind farms galore not being built. This is called land banking. It\u2019s blocking the generation; it\u2019s blocking people who want to do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000846\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EThe Minister responsible for RMA Reform says he wants to see more renewable electricity generation being built. There is plenty that is not being built. So, look, will the Minister commit to doing something to ensure that renewable electricity gets built? Don\u2019t talk about it; commit to doing it. Will you commit to put a date on when a national environmental standard will be delivered to the House so that we can see farmers who want to decarbonise\u2014and I know quite a few and I work with quite a few\u2014to build small-scale wind, under 10 megawatts? What\u2019s the time frame? I want to see something substantial. I don\u2019t want to hear any more rhetoric; I want to hear something substantial.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022e73fb08f7bae46d99d95b766e281307d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000847\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e73fb08f7bae46d99d95b766e281307d\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform):\u003C/span\u003E I do have to laugh at that last little epithet from the member. We\u2019re now well away from the bill, but let me briefly address the member\u2019s questions. Firstly, the National Policy Statement for Highly Productive Land is issued pursuant to the Resource Management Act; it\u2019s not affected by this repeal bill. There are issues with that, which we\u2019ll get to in due course, but it\u2019s not affected by that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000848\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIn relation to the fact that lots of people have consents for wind farms, yes, that\u2019s true, and, you know, I\u2019m happy to have an offline discussion with the member about the way the electricity market works. The member actually sounds like he\u2019s pretty familiar with it; I acknowledge his expertise, but we\u2019ve designed a market where, you know, the generators\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203fac9b0874c47eaac6c6f0eb81f12ce\u0022\u003EScott Willis\u003C/span\u003E: The market doesn\u2019t work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000850\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279dcdc426f9a4141919496c0f100cb1a\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the member says that, but we have one of the most renewable electricity systems in the world. We have one of the most affordable electricity systems in the world and one of the most secure. We\u2019ve got to do more, but the market does work, because we\u2019ve designed a system where investors put up their own capital and they put them in a stack and the next cab off the rank when it comes to the economics in the system work. Yes, there\u2019s a bit of a fight over the consents and bit of a fight for the best sites\u2014that\u2019s good. That\u2019s a good thing. What we need to do is make it easier to get the consents so that people can do that. So that deals with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000851\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIn relation to the Hon Megan Woods\u2019 point, I\u2019m advised that the length of consents through the fast track that we are saving is up to the expert consenting panel. In relation to her comment around \u201CWill the Government look at 35-year consents?\u201D, the answer is yes, we will. But that\u2019s not part of this bill, and we will be taking advice and making decisions on that in due course.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec4e0900021641b186d12a8d189ee501\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000852\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec4e0900021641b186d12a8d189ee501\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. It\u2019s a pleasure to take my first call in Part 1 of the bill. I\u2019ve got two or three questions I want to put to the Minister, and to help him prepare a little bit, it is around clauses 4 through 7 in Schedule 1, around Treaty settlements, and then clause 8 in Schedule 1, on the fast-track consenting process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000853\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EBut I want to raise a bigger-picture question for the Minister on the subject of transitional arrangements, because this is an unusual bill in many ways in that it will in Part 2 attempt to repeal two Acts, but in Part 1 it wants to keep some of that legislation. The choice about what bits of the Natural and Built Environment Act and the Spatial Planning Act are kept is the question I want to put to the Minister\u2014the big-picture question I want to put to the Minister\u2014because I want to know what consideration the Minister gave to other ways of the transitional provisions working. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EFor example, while accepting that the Resource Management Act (RMA) is still in force, keeping it that way, suspending the application of the Natural and Built Environment Act and the Spatial Planning Act to the extent that they are inconsistent with the RMA, retaining the bits\u2014and I want to come back to the question of the Treaty clauses because I don\u2019t think they do exactly what the Minister said before, but why just those and the fast-track consenting process? Why not give some space to the Minister to be able to, effectively, allow him to do this without pulling the whole house down? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI\u2019m going to make a prediction that at a certain point, the Minister is going to be back with a whole lot of clauses that look really similar to the thing that he\u2019s just pulled all down, and what I would suggest to the Minister is that he had an alternative. He had the alternative of actually allowing the system that we\u2019ve created to continue but actually give himself six months, nine months, 18 months to decide whether the bits that he\u2019s now getting rid of work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESo that is the first of my questions to the Minister. It is the extent to which he has considered other options that would actually allow key features of the new system to continue and the RMA exist as it did, rather than have to go through and do this exercise, which I think he\u2019ll end up doing twice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EMoving to the more detailed questions I\u2019ve got; I need an explanation from the Minister as to exactly what clauses 4 through 7 are designed to do when it comes to Treaty settlements. It seems to me on reading this that they are specifically about fast-track consenting and nothing else. I had the great pleasure of chairing 19 meetings of the ministerial oversight group on resource management reform\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd3963e3bd8948418188ab1985a985a0\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ll never get those back. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c236227fdefb42fda9d8d85dfc9da585\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m never ever getting those hours back, and I\u2019m sure the Minister may look forward in his future to something similar to that. But in all seriousness, the discussions\u2014and the most intense discussions\u2014during that period were around the way in which planning law affects iwi, hap\u016B, and the Treaty process. It seems to me that clauses 4 through 7\u2014and this is the question that we need answered by the Minister tonight. It is whether this justifies the fast-track consenting, because if it does only apply to fast-track consenting, the problem is much, much bigger for this Government, because the changes that were made to protect and support Treaty settlements and processes that have followed by post-settlement entities\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219810baa8c57498e8f6b079118555d97\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re all preserved\u2014they\u2019re all preserved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000861\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022281281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d50f38c9c34747978c9e93e7d34755f9\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014have been significant. So why are they not in the transitional provisions, Mr Court? Why are they not in the transitional provisions? Why is it just the fast-track consenting clause? I don\u2019t think it is clear to a lot of people, outside of this House, that that\u2019s what it is, because, at the beginning, in the explanatory note, it makes it sound like the whole Treaty settlement process has been protected, but, actually, it hasn\u2019t. It\u2019s just the fast-track consenting process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022281281\u0022\u003ENow, Mr Bishop\u2019s going to stand up and tell us that the RMA protects that. Well, no it doesn\u2019t. You can ask any iwi or hap\u016B around New Zealand, and they\u2019ll tell you it doesn\u2019t. There were other changes that could have been brought forward in the transitional provisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022281281\u0022\u003EI want to now come to the fast-track consenting process changes that are also covered by clause 8\u2014[Bell rung] Madam Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00220d59562e45e3489e8b6a01e180387d87\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000864\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d59562e45e3489e8b6a01e180387d87\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I call the Hon Grant Robertson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0ce6094ae054ac597296d87af8a25f4\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I won\u2019t take the whole of this call, because I want other colleagues to have a go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EMy other set of questions, then, are around the fast-track consenting process. It\u2019s a similar point to the one that I\u2019ve just been making on clauses 4 to 7. In the explanatory note, on page 3, it says, \u201CSchedule 1\u201D\u2014which we\u2019re debating\u2014\u201Cprovides \u2026 interim arrangements, including \u2026 continuing in a modified form the fast-track consenting regime in Schedule 10 of the Natural and Built Environment Act\u201D. Now, if we had a select committee process, this would have been the time at which we would have been able to understand in what way, specifically, is this a modified fast-track consenting process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ENow, I can see, in clause 8(3), a series of modifications. I want the Minister in the Chair, Chris Bishop, to explain to this House in plain English how this fast-track consenting process that will be the result of Part 1, is different from the fast-track consenting process that we saw in the Natural and Built Environment Act. The reason I say that is because a number of members in the Chamber have raised their concerns about what the fast-track consenting process will look like and what will be allowed and facilitated under it. We would know, I suspect, today, if this was a normal committee of the whole House stage, the answer to that question, because we would have had those answers in the select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000868\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESo just to reiterate\u2014I know the Minister was getting some advice while I was speaking then\u2014I want to know how this fast-track consenting process is different. The explanatory note tells us it is, clause 8 appears to show how it is, but I don\u2019t see that clearly in this bill, and I need an answer from the Minister on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022dbe50c4e2fb84e7da8219d760a6c1a8f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000869\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dbe50c4e2fb84e7da8219d760a6c1a8f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to the member Grant Robertson for those good questions. Let me deal with them in turn. In relation to how the Government came to the position that we came to when it comes to going back to the Resource Management Act 1991 (RMA), yes, it is correct we considered a range of options. The advice from officials was the most legally simple way to do it was this bill, which, essentially\u2014it\u2019s a slightly odd legislative vehicle, and I acknowledge that the member\u2019s point around that\u2019s true. The simplest way to do it was to repeal both pieces of legislation and save some specified things\u2014small things, including fast track. The member makes the point that I may well be back here before the House, making a series of amendments to the RMA. That is potentially true. In fact, it\u2019s quite possible. But the point is that will be done in a thorough way by us, and by the Government. It may be that we take some of the changes made through the Natural and Built Environment Act and re-legislate them, and it may be that others fall by the wayside. But we will work through that in due course. So that deals, I think, with the first question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000870\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe second question is in relation to fast track, and the third question was in relation to the\u2014I\u2019m just trying to remember the member\u2019s point. Do you want to remind me what it was, Mr Robertson? I can\u2019t read my notes, do you want to remind me what the second question was?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000871\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c995e3d9ceca4e77a34a0480297f065f\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: The one about Treaty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000872\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229c49bde4b32478096368025212dc68e\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, the Treaty\u2014yeah, yeah, yeah. In relation to the Treaty, the fast-track provisions just make that\u2014so our position is that the RMA upholds various Treaty settlements. I acknowledge the point the member made, that reasonable people could disagree about that. I\u2019ve no doubt that we will work through a robust process around that, as a Government. I\u2019m looking forward to those meetings. So our position is that it does and that it can give effect to those Treaty settlements. The point around clauses 4 through 7 that the member was talking about is to make it very clear, as a result of fast track, that it doesn\u2019t affect Treaty settlements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000873\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIn relation to his third question around a modified form of fast track, I\u2019m advised that it isn\u2019t. It is the Natural and Built Environment Act fast track that is being preserved and saved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf3525dd22654cbf8c0158787af8fd55\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000874\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf3525dd22654cbf8c0158787af8fd55\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Slightly related to that last contribution and discussion about the fast track and what\u2019s included and what\u2019s not, I would like a confirmation from the Minister that clause 14 of Schedule 10 of the Natural and Built Environment Act, which says what the eligible activities are that can be fast tracked, won\u2019t be changed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000875\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI ask that, because we just had Mr Robertson go through and say, \u201CWell, there\u2019s a whole lot here that we don\u2019t necessarily know in plain English what the changes are.\u201D But also there is clause 18, and this appears to be a \u201CKing Henry VIII\u201D clause, which is never a good thing. Why I\u2019m particularly worried about it in relation to the fast tracking and what is an eligible activity is because of what we\u2019ve been hearing in the debate today. I would say that the eligible activities at the moment are all very reasonable. But should, say, mining be included in that via a regulation made under clause 18\u2014so amending the primary legislation\u2014then that would be a very big deal indeed. So I would like confirmation from the Minister that that will not happen, and also an explanation of why such a \u201CKing Henry VIII\u201D clause is needed in clause 18.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000876\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EAlso, to make the point, that in the departmental disclosure statement at 4.7, it says \u201CDoes this Bill create or amend the power to make delegated legislation that could amend an Act, define the meaning of a term in an Act, or grant an exemption from an Act or delegated legislation.\u201D It says \u201CNO\u201D, next to it in the departmental disclosure report, but it very much seems to me, in my reading\u2014and I can see that the Minister will respond to me about clause 18 and the impact and the justification for having a \u201CKing Henry VIII\u201D clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u002201f93150e9fd4af2aa8c25c02576ea37\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000877\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201f93150e9fd4af2aa8c25c02576ea37\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much. Very quickly, in relation to clause 14 and the activities covered by fast track, they are exactly the same as the Natural and Built Environment Act (NBA), I\u2019m advised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000878\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIn relation to clause 18, which is the so-called \u201CHenry VIII\u201D clause, I was averted to this by my good friend Dean Knight, now professor of law at Victoria University. I saw his tweet. As members know, I\u2019m an inveterate tweeter\u2014got to get off the old Twitter. But anyway, I saw his\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000879\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d82e7e2ed38541e2955d7ce282285d27\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: You really do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000880\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266d505a4b66f4d23b4a93c3e119fdf85\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I know; yeah\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000881\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223eabd4746aaf4ced8ff06e46d59616d0\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Say more about Dean.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000882\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f95ebd64c884cc586c377e2a8c4e117\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s a good guy. I\u2019m sure he\u2019s listening, so this is for you, Dean. It is a \u201CHenry VIII\u201D clause and, as members will know, I don\u2019t like them and if you really cared you could go and look up my various contributions to Parliament over the last nine years. It is a \u201CHenry VIII\u201D clause. It can be used to modify primary legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000883\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EInterestingly, it was carried over from section 801(1)(m) of the NBA proactively by the drafters. So it turns out it was already there. It is there to manage unintended consequences, I\u2019m advised. Clauses such as these are present in other legislation that relates to health and safety, civil aviation, and trusts. So, basically, the sought point is there was a \u201CHenry VIII\u201D clause in the NBA and it\u2019s just been transferred across to the new bill as clause 18.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022b07d5de8eb5b4c77aef2ceefd4f27307\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000884\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b07d5de8eb5b4c77aef2ceefd4f27307\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Madam Chair, and thank you very much for the opportunity. There were a couple of matters that I thought were left on the table for the Minister to answer. One of those, in particular, was the second part of the question or the second leg of the question by my colleague Arena Williams, and that was about the Mana Whakahono. The Mana Whakahono part talks to those who are iwi authorities who are already engaged or who wish to initiate the engagement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000885\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister, which was alluded to by my colleague, is for the example given by Ng\u0101 Puhi for the well over 100 hap\u016B who\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221181604a1be84b029d8a24c44f66cec7\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ve had this one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000887\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a517f3d52dd46ca9365e4d4f4868ba3\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: It wasn\u2019t answered, Mr Court. That\u2019s why we\u2019re asking again. The 100 hap\u016B\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bea24496afad46f28634daeb2b90f180\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I apologise to my colleague for interrupting. There are longstanding provisions in Speakers\u2019 Rulings that members shouldn\u2019t move to improve their position in order to interject, and Mr Court was consistently interjecting through Mr Henare\u2019s contribution from a seat that is definitely not his.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b31f53395ee4c94bb171e4e5aeed890\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Just responding to the point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000890\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e85a9baa34240e38ddd8a575d517ad2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t think it\u2019s necessary, Mr Court. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000891\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ab6e25e7ae84531a211b403a64153b6\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair, thank you very much. It is important, the question about Mana Whakahono and the 100-plus hap\u016B of Ng\u0101 Puhi\u2014some of whom are already authorised iwi authorities. Some aren\u2019t yet have been recognised through a Waitangi Tribunal process that has heard from those hap\u016B with respect to their mana i te whenua, their ability to have interests across their rohe, across their lands. I\u2019m asking the Minister, because I\u2019m sure they\u2019ll be curious how they\u2019ll be engaged in this. The Mana Whakahono provision is quite clear here. But for those who aren\u2019t an iwi authority here but yet are recognised through the claims process in the Waitangi Tribunal and in other forums, I\u2019m wondering whether or not the Minister has any suggestion for Ng\u0101 Puhi, or advice for Ng\u0101 Puhi hap\u016B\u2014and the many hap\u016B around the country\u2014about how they might be able to be engaged here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000892\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI also ask with respect to the Treaty provisions here, 5(1)(b), and it talks in there, and, yes, relating directly to the fast track to \u201Csupport the capacity of the relevant party to participate effectively in those discussions, including by providing appropriate resources;\u201D. Madam Chair, I\u2019m wondering: what do the appropriate resources look like to the Minister and to the ministries here? For example, when the Labour Government was involved in this, it wasn\u2019t just money. It\u2019s talking about bandwidth, it\u2019s talking about capacity, it\u2019s talking about expertise and skills. I\u2019m curious here whether or not the Minister has thought about what these resources are and how he might be able to explain to those iwi and hap\u016B how they may be appropriately resourced in order to engage in this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe next question I have is around the report backs through 5(2)(b). It says here: \u201Cuse the Crown\u2019s best endeavours to promote the enactment of the Bill not later than 18 months after the commencement of this clause.\u201D, and moves into (3) and says, \u201CThe Crown must also\u2014(a) monitor the progress of the matters set out in subclauses (1) and (2); and (b) make a report to the relevant party on progress every 3 months after this clause and clause 7 come into force.\u201D My question here to the Minister is when we look towards the regular three-month updates, there\u2019s going to be a number of questions that iwi and hap\u016B will have, so I\u2019m going to offer some of these here now: one, who exactly will he be reporting through? And by through, I mean the agency, or is the Minister expecting his office to directly engage in that? Two, does the Minister have a strict key performance indicator on both the 18-month report back as well as the three-month report back to the relevant party? I\u2019m sure many will be interested to know there are a number of events coming up in the coming months where I\u2019m sure that iwi and hap\u016B will want to hear from the Minister with respect to these particular parts of his repeal bill, because the Treaty settlements have often been spoken about in this House as sacrosanct, and now, here we are; we seem to be going back on them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000894\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI think I\u2019ve left three, maybe four, questions on the table for consideration by the Minister. Just finally from me with respect to the Mana Whakahono, the Minister said that none were officially engaged or have officially signed up to be Mana Whakahono, but that doesn\u2019t preclude the fact that many have already been on a journey to sign to a Mana Whakahono agreement under the legislation that\u2019s being repealed today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000895\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI just want to hear once again from the Minister confirmation whether or not it simply goes back to the Resource Management Act process, and, if so, then how does that impact those who have come on their journey to be a mana whakahono in the consideration after this bill is repealed by this Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb83866c383641908e95dd7fc230ab87\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000896\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb83866c383641908e95dd7fc230ab87\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u002289a5e90955534246847342421325cb3a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000897\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002289a5e90955534246847342421325cb3a\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. A great attempt, but not quite. There are a lot of questions on this side of the House. I stress to those new members of this House: this bill is going under urgency, there is absolutely no select committee process on it; therefore I think it is more than fair that the members on this side of the House who have call after call, who have a number of questions\u2014that\u2019s why the Chamber is so full, it\u2019s because we\u2019ve got so many questions in relation to this bill. The Minister, just before, has acknowledged that even people in the public, even though it\u2019s on X or Twitter or whatever you may call it, are also asking questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000898\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ESo, therefore, my question really will be short to the Minister, because I really want to clearly understand\u2014because when we get out of this House, whenever that is, because this side of the House has lots of questions, and I suspect that it\u2019s going to take a number of hours to get through them\u2014when this bill goes through, I have a huge question in relation to clause 7. That is, in relation to the regulation to uphold other arrangements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000899\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ESo there have been about three different questions from three different members in relation to the operation and the reconciliation of clause 7. One, is this in relation to Treaty settlements or arrangements only as part of the fast-track consenting; I think the Minister made it clear that, yes, it was around fast-track consenting only. There was another question, from the MP for Manurewa, Arena Williams, around who were the hap\u016B and the iwi who have actually entered into these arrangements, and the Minister has clarified that there were none. So the Minister also said that there were none, this is belt and braces, and it\u2019s going to revert back to the Resource Management Act (RMA). I was listening to the Minister\u2019s answers at the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000900\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EHowever, that is my question as to how that reversion back to the RMA reconciles with clause 7, because clause 7 takes it out of primary legislation, and therefore gives a secondary legislation - making power to the executive in relation to these Mana Whakahono \u0101 Rohe joint arrangements. How does that actually work? How does that reconcile? I ask the Minister to put it very clearly on record how it reconciles, because his comments\u2014given we don\u2019t have a select committee in relation to this\u2014in relation to the Hansard, I think will be very important for iwi when they go back and they engage in this, if they don\u2019t believe that this legislation is very fair if they decide to enter into a joint arrangement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000901\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ESo I ask the Minister in very clear layman\u2019s terms to absolutely, expressly provide the policy intent for clause 7\u2014how it reconciles with the RMA\u2014because it is a secondary legislation - making power, so that iwi and hap\u016B who may be listening to this debate, or in future once they realise what actually is happening, have a very clear policy intent as to what the Minister on that side of House intended with that provision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u002219e79467040d417b8900880dc4b05d66\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000902\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002219e79467040d417b8900880dc4b05d66\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I thank the members for the good questions. In relation to the Hon Peeni Henare\u2019s questions, Mana Whakahono \u0101 Rohe made under the Resource Management Act continue with no changes. Clause 11\u2014that I think he was talking about\u2014relates to Mana Whakahono \u0101 Rohe initiated under the Natural and Built Environment Act of which there are none at this point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000903\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1daa2e788c64cd7a8d476074774dc9b\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000904\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205456b7dbafd4a17ab643d82cd911663\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Hang on, I\u2019m still going! The member asked about clause 5, which is the process for upholding Treaty settlements. I\u2019m advised that this is, basically, a belts and braces approach. It\u2019s there if it\u2019s required to make any changes pursuant to a fast-track process that is undertaken. So it\u2019s there if required.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000905\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EOf course, in relation to the question he asked around what process the Crown will go through with KPIs, I will follow the law. I\u2019m a guy who believes in the rule of law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000906\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c6f9565b247465aa87e33fce4e01137\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: First time for everything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000907\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c11790531a084a12b5497e885fa95719\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that\u2019s\u2014that\u2019s\u2014that\u2019s\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000908\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022285ae977b747455a9093cb57aa2fd40b\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: It was a joke.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000909\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7bf9c4f90c44ac6aa54be552891c7dd\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: OK. All right. I\u2019ll take it in the spirit with which it was intended. We\u2019re a Government that follows the rule of law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThirdly, in relation to the Hon Barbara Edmonds\u2019 question, the regulation-making powers\u2014there\u2019s nothing particularly unusual about this. This is a standard regulatory-making power, again, if required in relation to the matters that it gives effect to. Again, it\u2019s belts and braces for those that are required.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002207100e3c4d7e4a8092244acdb3f90a92\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000911\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207100e3c4d7e4a8092244acdb3f90a92\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I take the next call, can I just remind members that we will be looking for new material. Some of this is becoming quite repetitive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad3970a8fc7846e084bc744e30f0cc96\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000912\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad3970a8fc7846e084bc744e30f0cc96\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to offer some help to the Minister, because I know he has got a lack of expertise on his side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000913\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3b9da4dfbb5421ba46f59b1826f322a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Stick to the bill, please, Mr Jackson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000914\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe4e8969b3624e6f9bcaca4ffe06f156\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I just want to help him out because there\u2019s probably only one person over there who knows what we\u2019re talking about, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000915\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b91ab990e1b46aba17e3604cdad0e8d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: How is that relevant to the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000916\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022749cb0a7d3a04f38baae23c804326d0f\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: I want to help the Minister out. He knows I\u2019m very supportive of him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000917\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EGrant Robertson was talking about the fast-track process, and I want the Minister to consider this because I think he hasn\u2019t quite addressed the status of Treaty settlements. We\u2019re talking about Part 1, Schedule 1, \u201CPreserving the status of Treaty settlements\u201D, Madam Chair, just for your information. I know that he\u2019s gone down the fast-track process, and that\u2019s good, but I think when iwi look at this, you know, I don\u2019t want the Minister in court. He\u2019s only been a Minister for five minutes, and we want to look after the Minister\u2019s interests.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000918\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd280bc084bd4ca3906d74ffb53f9d41\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Come back to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000919\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b49d0b4df8243ef93299bc4a95759d1\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: We know he\u2019s quite representative of the M\u0101ori over there in Wainui\u014Dmata. But what sort of support can he give te ao M\u0101ori with regards to this? It\u2019s really a worry. All the work that the former Minister Grant Robertson did is all going to go down the tubes if he does not address this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000920\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EI also want to follow up on what Peeni Henare said in terms of some of the hap\u016B and iwi. We\u2019d like to know\u2014or I\u2019d like to know\u2014who are the hap\u016B and iwi who the Minister has consulted with. We\u2019d like that. And who are the iwi technicians that he has consulted with, because that\u2019s a process that we went down thoroughly, and you heard Grant Robertson, he was turned up and down by some of his relations, but he enjoyed that, you know, that\u2019s part of his wh\u0101nau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000921\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003ESo we went back there because we believe in a thorough process. What\u2019s been the feedback? Can he tell me one recommendation that the iwi technicians made that has gone into this bill? Just one\u2014just one will do. If there\u2019s any, I would really, really appreciate that\u2014I\u2019m glad you\u2019re looking for it now\u2014because we are so concerned about this process. We\u2019re so concerned that there\u2019s so little knowledge\u2014Madam Chair, I\u2019m saying that very respectively\u2014within the National Party caucus. As I\u2019ve said, there\u2019s only probably one person who knows te ao M\u0101ori; the rest of them, you know, with respect, probably don\u2019t even know they\u2019re M\u0101ori. I don\u2019t mean to be disrespectful, but I need to go down this track because Grant Robertson has, quite rightly, put this on the table with regards to the status of Treaty settlements. How are our leaders going to feel tonight when they hear the Minister skirting away, saying, \u201CYes, the fast track\u2019s OK.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000922\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b8390740591400fb1fdd92639b95552\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: But what about the rest?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000923\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222feb5b72292e4788aa1657033519b11f\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: What about the rest? What about Ng\u0101i Tahu? What about Tainui? These are iwi who have been invested in by the National Party, and now we have this attack from Minister Bishop. I don\u2019t know if he\u2019s meaning the attack or not, but we still can\u2019t work out why he won\u2019t go through a democratic process, in terms of a select committee, and why he is so reliant\u2014Madam Chair, I say this very respectively\u2014on some of the useless M\u0101ori in his party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022a27fe36a2e814de88fea60f9b878e098\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000924\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a27fe36a2e814de88fea60f9b878e098\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m going to ignore the pejorative comments from the former Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a09a1641ae7466d8e631634add61bfc\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Very good of you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000926\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f65cd9fb0f1f4e6e985ab06cd8b540b0\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. This is not an attack on M\u0101oridom; it\u2019s not an attack on te ao M\u0101ori either. He asked me a question as to what contribution iwi technicians had made. I have an answer for him: section 104 of the Natural and Built Environment Act which deals with Te Ture Whaimana, in particular with relation to the Waikato River, there was a suggestion made through the iwi technician process which we inserted into the bill at their suggestion. So there has been a\u2014I accept the short process; I accept there\u2019s been a short process. However, as I\u2019ve said multiple times now, our opposition to this legislation has been well known essentially from the start of the regime, and the three Government parties have made that clear right from the start. Look, we can traverse back through the history. There was an opportunity at various points in the last Parliament for consensus. That did not arrive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000927\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve received a letter from the Hon Rachel Brooking in relation to a pathway forward. We\u2019ll be considering that letter and the contribution that maybe we are able to make. So we\u2019ll be considering that. It is important that there is some certainty and stability when it comes to our planning regime. Actually, the Resource Management Act (RMA) 1991\u2019s been on the statute book for 30 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000928\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c490d9af546f43ebba61ba8d2292b02d\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: And you\u2019ve been criticising it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000929\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0b7af328a144c1381bdba897541d989\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: We have, and so have you. So has the entire Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000930\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b475fa67bee1462bbc0464fb38dd8608\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: And now you\u2019re just going to take us back there for no reason.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000931\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a23c9902e23347039d0ba707149d2fa8\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, we\u2019re going to go back there, because our view is that this Act that we are repealing is worse than the RMA, which is saying something.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000932\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235e72bef719a4ee4b8efcbef699bb327\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: And that is ridiculous. That is ridiculous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212b771826bdf4a8eb0d64d46e13394e7\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: It is not ridiculous. Many, many people think that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000934\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266f89a75d04946cf9d9b75e17b52c324\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Nobody who understands the RMA would agree with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228539208e2c34ba5987cdd9ef16a463f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: No, I\u2019m sorry. Greatest of respect. I acknowledge the former Minister who sat through a lot of meetings that I\u2019m probably going to sit through in the next three years. I acknowledge his hard work on this, and a lot of people put a lot of time and energy into it. But just because you have put time and energy into something doesn\u2019t make it right. That goes back to the point I made before. You\u2019re actually better to cut your losses and walk away, and that\u2019s our point. Anyway, I\u2019ve made my point about three or four times now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u0022d85d38eb696045b4adf1b1fa4d451c92\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000936\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d85d38eb696045b4adf1b1fa4d451c92\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002294de5fe968984b269c2c7dda41b0e447\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000937\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002294de5fe968984b269c2c7dda41b0e447\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that motion be put. All those\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000938\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d470976def04365aead8706dec78ce0\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Thank you, Madam Chair. Two calls ago\u2014one call ago, actually\u2014you asked for new material. I\u2019ve been here for two hours seeking the call throughout and have not had one call. I am the Labour Party spokesperson for local government, housing, and regional development. They are very relevant portfolios to this. If you\u2019re seeking new calls, I would put it to you that you should be giving those that haven\u2019t had a call and have genuinely been attempting to get one the opportunity to introduce new material.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000939\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4a3a384b36542c083980e8bd10f7b62\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Point taken. I\u2019ll ask the Clerk to conduct a party vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002297f09e0d984c46bb8c4d91cf9ab1f9eb\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022e55e5d2a9da147609e7421c4ac6303f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e55e5d2a9da147609e7421c4ac6303f9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Arena Williams\u2019s first tabled amendment to clause 3 is ruled out of order as not being a serious amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000941\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EThe question is that Arena Williams\u2019s second tabled amendment to clause 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226fde662f5db54c74b6542f1ae3d35536\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00220113bcccedbb45a4b730d489930d9d9a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000942\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220113bcccedbb45a4b730d489930d9d9a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019s third tabled amendment to clause 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224e2757e01a3b4381b93022e1e2c6f5eb\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00221b7e3744a0944f52ad5508682a0a96da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b7e3744a0944f52ad5508682a0a96da\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019s fourth tabled amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c28af8b3c8ca4d29b5059271771ec9c7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a26460fa28524979af56931893bdc4c9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019s fifth tabled amendment to clause 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022c05a2cfb61394308a22e65a424503f20\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000944\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c05a2cfb61394308a22e65a424503f20\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002289f25521a54e47b6942654fc74e4d85c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00225e97cd40b150478994f0e5bdeb3215db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000945\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e97cd40b150478994f0e5bdeb3215db\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019s sixth tabled amendment to clause 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c2965fe48e3a412e9c0d7004f64d813a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002274941fd9fdeb49569d932cc70a32e922\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000946\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dc29b4b22a3f4ff6a714ca8f797cd61a\u0022\u003EPart 2  Repeals and related provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe94e405c59c4f4e8379fb363efe3af0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000947\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe94e405c59c4f4e8379fb363efe3af0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: We now come to the debate on Part 2. Part 2 is the debate on clauses 5 and 6, \u201CRepeals and related provisions\u201D, and Schedule 2. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022b623b4b934754729b29f6ace491b5830\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000948\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b623b4b934754729b29f6ace491b5830\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I do just want to seek from you some clarification about the extent of the debate on clause 5. Clause 5 repeals the Natural and Built Environment Act, repeals the Spatial Planning Act, and revokes the Natural and Built Environment forms of these regulations 2023. The first two of those are substantive pieces of legislation, and I do want some assurance that when members of the committee raise issues within that legislation that is no longer going to be on the books, we are able to have a full debate about those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000949\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWhile they are deceptively short clauses, they do significant things. I\u2019m not relitigating your ruling, Madam Chair, because I know that\u2019s not something I\u2019m allowed to do on Part 1, but I am asking, for Part 2, that consideration is given. Relevance matters here because if we are speaking about matters that are being repealed, they are most definitely within the scope of the debate on Part 2. I just want some assurance on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022bfc8022e800e4c50b24fa075b32f10c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000950\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bfc8022e800e4c50b24fa075b32f10c2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I give you my assurance, Mr Robertson, and also I have signalled many times during that debate to come back to the bill and provide new material. So I suggest perhaps your team needs to follow your instructions. Speaking to the point of order, Simon Court?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u00220b30a1da6c1a4bbd9ab34172c2ef6645\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000951\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b30a1da6c1a4bbd9ab34172c2ef6645\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019d just like to note that during the debate on Part 1, it was a very wide-ranging debate which extended well into the schedules and has covered\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000952\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265cc0aef4964474d9725ef7c5a97e373\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s your point of order, Mr Court?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225612aef83ddc4f159babff3f144b8243\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, I think it\u2019s important that we do stick to the very, very limited provisions stated in Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00226ff4db013e7247d5a1f2cfad3a25a811\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000954\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ff4db013e7247d5a1f2cfad3a25a811\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for your help. I call the Hon James Shaw.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd158f80c6894bfda58dd5ebbbf9ce1e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000955\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd158f80c6894bfda58dd5ebbbf9ce1e\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Speaking to the point of order, the bills that the next part repeals did cost something like a quarter of a billion dollars and six years to develop. So I think given that this is a Government that wants to tighten up on costs, it is important that we don\u2019t just throw out a quarter of a billion dollars on a very short debate, and that we do have a fulsome debate. There were a number of speakers who did not have a chance to ask questions in the first round, who I think perhaps would deserve a more fulsome debate in this next part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022569af16a235840eaad138ef724b814dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000956\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022569af16a235840eaad138ef724b814dc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: If the material is new and relevant, they will get their opportunity. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022b688fd5a7c194b46a88d5d86190139b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000957\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b688fd5a7c194b46a88d5d86190139b1\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m going to go straight into some detail here, and that is on page 105\u2014my 105 of the bill. It amends section 80A, and that is to \u201Creplace 31 December 2024\u201D with \u201C31 December 2027\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000958\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWhat this is about is it looks like it\u2019s just a date change, but it is very important because it is about the freshwater planning process. So Section 80A of the Resource Management Act\u2014that\u2019s what we\u2019re talking about here\u2014requires a freshwater planning instrument. It says at subsection (4), \u201CA regional council must\u2014(a) publicly notify the freshwater planning instrument; and (b) if the purpose of the freshwater planning instrument is to give effect to the National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management 2020, publicly notify the freshwater planning instrument by 31 December 2024.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThe amendment\u2014it looks like from the New Zealand Legislation website\u2014was made on 1 July 2020. So this date has been on the statute book for some time. I imagine it would have gone through with that National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management. So my question is: what analysis has the Government done in coming to its determination that from 2024, we go many more years into 2027\u2014if they have looked at where regional councils have got to with their plans? Because it\u2019s been my experience that there has been good work done by regional councils and they are much closer to meeting the 2024 deadline and there is no need for them to go to 2027. Of course, I note that the substantive issue here is that we have better planning laws or planning regulations for our water so that we have the high-quality water and quantities of water that New Zealanders care about. That is my first question on this part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022919ae7065437430cb78aa1c129d02e54\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022919ae7065437430cb78aa1c129d02e54\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s very, very simple. A very simple question; a very simple answer. The Government has a commitment to repeal, replace, and rebalance the National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management 2020. That process will take some time. As the member well knows, there\u2019s quite a convoluted process to go through to update national policy statement instruments. We\u2019ll go through that process in full, take policy advice, and work through that process. So the date extension is to give us time to work through that process and make it really clear to regional councils that we\u2019re doing that and they\u2019ve got the extension of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u0022c78bc92b66aa40f3b6845ebaf795fab8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000961\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c78bc92b66aa40f3b6845ebaf795fab8\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks, Madam Chair. Thank you for allowing me to take the call. I actually would have asked this question in the earlier part, but obviously can\u2019t. However, I have found a connection in Part 4, Schedule 2 of Part 2. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ESo looking at Part Three of the departmental disclosure statement, because, again, this is the only officials\u2019 advice that we can actually go off, under paragraph 3.2, it asks \u201CWhat steps have been taken to determine whether the policy to be given effect by this Bill is consistent with the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi?\u201D The response by officials was: \u201CDue to [the] limited time, high-level Treaty impact assessments were provided to Cabinet on the NBA and the SPA repeal.\u201D And it references CAB-23-MIN-0473 and CAB-23-SUB468. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000963\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ESo my question to the Minister is: is this information publicly available; if not, will the Minister be able to table that tonight so that members on this side of the Chamber have some officials\u2019 advice in relation to the information that he received, in relation to the impact on Treaty settlements, given that both Part 1 and now Part 2\u2014we have some growing concerns on this side of the House in relation to the impact on some of those settlements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022 data-id=\u0022a8440a1d71b44c958f6bd9b83b921592\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000964\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a8440a1d71b44c958f6bd9b83b921592\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora. Thank you. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou e te Whare. A couple of questions. I think the first thing is, as my colleague to the right, who\u2019s from the left, just said, there have been assessments identified that this bill has implications under Te Tiriti, but because of time frames there hasn\u2019t been able to be a good analysis, there are complex interactions that will affect Treaty settlements, and that given the time lines, only limited engagement with post-settlement governance entities has happened in other M\u0101ori groups.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000965\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003ENow, I just wanted to hold that, and the question that I have for the Minister is on page 83, under Schedule 2. In Schedule 3 of the Urban Development Act 2020, clause 1(4)(c), the Minister\u2019s proposing to replace \u201CTe Tiriti o Waitangi\u201D with \u201Cthe Treaty of Waitangi\u201D. My question is: there were 50 rangatira that signed the Treaty; there were 500 rangatira that signed Te Tiriti, what is the Minister going to do about those who signed and recognised Te Tiriti and their relationships, indeed, under their settlements and those who are currently waiting and preparing to go through settlement\u2014some who are large groups of hap\u016B and iwi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000966\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EI want to also pick up on that hap\u016B and iwi in Schedule 2 on page 83: in Schedule 3 of the Urban Development Act 2020, clause 1(4)(e), the Minister is proposing to replace \u201Ciwi and hap\u016B participation legislation\u201D with \u201Ciwi participation legislation\u201D. So what is the Minister proposing to do with the hap\u016B who have been completely left out and replaced? We have real concerns, obviously, with those 500 who only recognise rangatira and signed Te Tiriti, and those hap\u016B that I\u2019m sure the Minister would not want to be seen left out of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000967\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EThe further question that I have to ask to the Minister is that there has been a redefining and replacing of the definition of \u201CTe Mana o Te Wai\u201D. It is unclear who has been engaged with determining Te Mana o Te Wai, specifically given the Minister\u2019s concerns about the kupu of te Oranga o te Taiao. And the meaning that has been set out in the National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management has been completely rewritten and the purpose for it. Again our question is: if in fact the Government hasn\u2019t had the time, because it\u2019s under urgency, to engage not only with post-settlement governance entities, to engage with pre-settlement iwi, hap\u016B entities, and other M\u0101ori groups, and if the Minister is proposing now to replace \u201CTe Tiriti\u201D and only acknowledge \u201Cthe Treaty\u201D, what is he going to do with the 500 rangatira who only signed Te Tiriti and not the Treaty? Is this indeed the start of the deterioration from this Government of the Tiriti?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000968\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s really important. This is of absolute imperative to M\u0101ori. You must remember: 30 percent of those of M\u0101ori voted for Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori. We have six of the seven electorate seats. We have been contacted by numerous technicians, numerous hap\u016B. Only 1 percent voted for that party over there. So what I am really clear and confident in is who I can speak for, which actually this part over here can\u2019t speak for. What is the Minister proposing to do? Is he proposing to rewrite the Tiriti?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00228ea9d2a0130b4cbe9cb42edb03588bbc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000969\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ea9d2a0130b4cbe9cb42edb03588bbc\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform):\u003C/span\u003E In relation to the last question, no, I am not proposing to rewrite the Treaty of Waitangi. The committee will be glad to know that. I\u2019m advised that the change that the member is adverting to at page 83 is just in keeping with what I\u2019ve already said, which is that we are just going back to the Resource Management Act 1991 in the interim while we work to have a replacement regime around fast track and also a replacement regime for the resource management. So that deals with that. I know the member\u2019s getting very excited, because she\u2019s sort of randomly flipped open the bill and found something and is trying to make a mountain out of a molehill. The member is getting a bit excited.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000970\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIn relation to the questions from Barbara Edmonds, which is sort of on a similar note, in relation to the departmental disclosure statement, I will consider making that information public in due course. It\u2019s a Cabinet paper, so it will be proactively released in due course. And the other point to note there is that there was engagement between post-settlement governance entities and iwi by the Government. It was, to be fair, limited. I\u2019m not going to pretend it was a full and robust engagement, but there was consultation. There were letters sent by myself to all local councils and also to post-settlement governance entities, PSGEs as they\u2019re known in the parlance, and there was engagement with iwi technicians. And as I\u2019ve indicated in my response to the Hon Willie Jackson\u2019s question, there was a helpful suggestion made, which was inserted into the bill. So there has been engagement. I\u2019m not pretending that it has been as robust as members would have liked, but there has been engagement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022dab6c8502eba41ab998fa8b36a9a5882\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000971\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dab6c8502eba41ab998fa8b36a9a5882\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Oh, great choice, Madam Chair, thank you. I have a series of questions for the Minister, mostly around clause 5(2), because the Spatial Planning Act, one of my favourite bits of what we did, hasn\u2019t had anywhere near enough attention tonight, so I want to come to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000972\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EBut, first, I want to ask the Minister whether or not any cost-benefit analysis has been completed on this piece of legislation that\u2019s in the House tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000973\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bef66f6c758841a9b2a52e04a3081d66\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, detail!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000974\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a811509438814dfc8c2fb87fb398a1a0\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not at all surprised that Shane Jones doesn\u2019t care about cost-benefit analysis, but that\u2019s the subject of another discussion for another day. But the work that was done, and the Hon James Shaw mentioned this before\u2014the extent of the work that was done to create the two pieces of legislation being repealed under clause 5 of the bill that we\u2019re debating tonight. Among other things we were able to determine during that was that over 30 years the Ministry for the Environment estimated that the new system would deliver between $2.58 and $4.90 for every dollar that was spent. Now, that kind of return\u2014I see that\u2019s back to Mr Jones\u2019 interest when he hears about that kind of return on investment, because that is a significant improvement to where we are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe system could have created a 19 percent reduction in costs, or around $150 million per year in reduced costs from the two pieces of legislation that are proposed to be repealed under clause 5 of this bill. Now, I find that extraordinary, because we hear day after day from the Government opposite that they\u2019re here to be able to cut costs and cut waste and be more efficient, and here they are repealing legislation that would have saved around $150 million a year and, over 30 years, delivered between $2.58 and $4.90 in benefits for every dollar spent. That kind of cost-benefit analysis should accompany any major piece of legislation. So my question again, for the Minister\u2019s benefit, is for him to be able to tell us whether or not he did commission a cost-benefit analysis and what it said, because at the moment this looks like a pretty bad deal for the taxpayer to be going backwards to this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000976\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI also, as I said, want to then ask the Minister a series of questions around his repeal of the Spatial Planning Act. There are many of these that I could ask, but the ones that I want to start with are the extent to which the member thinks that the repeal is going to result in an increase in the number of plans that need to be done. The Minister, because I know he\u2019s followed this debate for some considerable time, would be aware that we were moving from around 100 plans that are required to be done, and all of the red tape and the challenge and the difficulty that presents to people to want to be able to do things\u2014we were going to reduce that down to 16 plans, from 100 to 16. That\u2019s the cutting of red tape. They should be on their feet over in the ACT Party saying, \u201CWell done, congratulations to the former Government for doing that.\u201D, but instead tonight Christopher Bishop and the National Party want more plans. They want 100 of these plans around the country that are going to slow down the activities of people. Mr Bishop and others\u2014Christopher Luxon being one of them\u2014have told us how bad the Resource Management Act (RMA) is. Chris Luxon told us it didn\u2019t work for anybody, it needed to be got rid of, and tonight they bring it back. Clause 5 repeals an Act that actually would\u2019ve seen the number of plans reduced down from 100 to 16.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000977\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESo I want the Minister to tell me how many plans he expects will exist under the RMA instead of the Spatial Planning Act, and while he\u2019s at it, it would also be useful for him to be able to outline to us what it will mean for the speed of plan-making to return to the Resource Management Act rather than the Spatial Planning Act\u2014I\u2019m sure the member would be able to help understand that for us\u2014what it would mean in terms of M\u0101ori representation in the plan-making process. So what does it mean now to go back to the Resource Management Act? Can he please explain to the committee in some detail what the difference is there, and whether or not there will be fewer consents as a result of the plans that are now going to be put here, or more consents? I look forward to the answers from the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022275962730b2740e1b6cf5a48b228a40d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022275962730b2740e1b6cf5a48b228a40d\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I can deal with these questions relatively simply. In relation to cost-benefit, no, we haven\u2019t done a cost-benefit\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000979\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3aeb6620415443f8c66eacff7fd7a5b\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, outrageous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000980\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276bea1d91bf14fc88a2b31795aeb1152\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, yeah. It\u2019s three minutes to 10 o\u2019clock. I mean, there are so many things I could say about cost-benefit under the last Government, but I\u2019m not going to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000981\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022046890870aa544b5abab10fa5ded35dd\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: No, you just decided not to do one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000982\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ab45d3cf55147d9b1e161f59307c54a\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, no, because we sought a mandate to repeal this legislation and we received that mandate and we are doing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000983\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIn relation to the second question, I do not and we do not accept the analysis that the member has raised around the $2.58 to $4.90, which I think he mentioned as the return.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022796e477f4a424bc69687bdf49699c015\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Ask the officials.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000985\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287e39fa9564d4afe99eac96d371a766f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, yeah. Well, no doubt we\u2019ll be discussing it. I don\u2019t accept the analysis that was presented.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000986\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223856ed094a0647e39f87cd338fc7bc27\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: You just don\u2019t accept it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000987\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223830f6521fec4cbcb1bc1b7c82845ccc\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, no, I don\u2019t. I don\u2019t accept it. I don\u2019t accept it. Again, if the member wants to point to Ministers ignoring official advice, there are many examples from his time in Government that we can point to, but I won\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000988\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EOn spatial planning, which is more substantive, the member does make a good point. Spatial planning is important and we do want to develop a robust regime around that. We do want to see fewer plans; we do want to make it easier to streamline. There are a number of issues with the spatial planning regime as advanced by the previous Government as is contained in the Spatial Planning Act (SPA).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000989\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe first is that the member talks about a reduction in bureaucracy, but actually the regime would have set up new layers of bureaucracy through regional planning committees and what not to create that. Again, it goes back to the point I made before about the intention being a good one; the outcome not necessarily being created by that. So I do say to the committee and say to the member that we are interested in regional planning and spatial planning, but getting that regime right is important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000990\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe other thing that should happen is it should be done in a coherent way. The last Government had the three waters regimes going on at the same time as the Spatial Planning Act was being passed, at the same time as the future of local government was throwing all of the local government sector into a spin about what the future of planning was. You know, all three things have some merit as things that Governments do often do, but getting some kind of structural coherence around that, I think, is important. I\u2019m not trying to be overly political; I\u2019m just making the point that coherence is important. So that deals with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000991\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EEveryone wants to see fewer plans and faster decision-making under the RMA; I think we\u2019re actually aligned around that, it\u2019s just we disagree that the Natural and Built Environment Act and the SPA would have delivered that. That\u2019s fine; reasonable people can disagree. We sought a mandate for it and now we are proceeding to implement it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002201d9a32f16b34b2dadd26179ab8847fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000992\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201d9a32f16b34b2dadd26179ab8847fa\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the time has come for me to leave the chair. The committee will resume at 9 a.m. tomorrow. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000993\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000994\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 10.01 p.m. to 9 a.m. (Wednesday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219724cff56abb14022b71a542e4c7e80c9000995\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221ae3c47164094f56bac1d04eae727e8a\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 19 DECEMBER 2023\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022eeb8ae23039141348c4467482eba8bf0\u0022\u003E(continued on Wednesday, 20 December 2023)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e84d89daddc54d8f9a3796b8ebbae24e\u0022\u003EResource Management (Natural and Built Environment and Spatial Planning Repeal and Interim Fast-track Consenting) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002209aa009d3b8a43eaa9d81d37d9ae01e6\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000005\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225c63fe03e33d4a6ebf7240668c4374b1\u0022\u003EPart 2  Repeals and related provisions (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c07368784470435e98d535eaf67ba846\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c07368784470435e98d535eaf67ba846\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, when the committee suspended last night, we were debating Part 2. This is the debate on clauses 5 and 6, \u201CRepeals and related provisions\u201D, and Schedule 2. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00220530887b3a384774a0a1809f1f51f893\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220530887b3a384774a0a1809f1f51f893\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, for the opportunity to contribute to this debate. It\u2019s my first opportunity to contribute to this part and I have 11 tabled amendments in my name that I hope the Minister in the chair will consider, because there are a few that do some things that this House has been discussing last night.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo the first ones that I\u2019ll speak to are the first three on this part\u2014they are new clauses 5A. The effect of the clauses that I\u2019m seeking some support around the House for would bring in a new section after section 5, which, essentially, referred to one of the committees of this House the pieces of legislation which are being repealed for a cross-partisan discussion about those clauses which have been removed from the new Act but still have cross-partisan support. So it would, effectively, be a six-week urgent inquiry by whichever committee it was referred to. I\u2019ve left it open for discussion to consider those parts which are important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ENow, this is in the context of my colleague the Hon Rachel Brooking sending a letter to the Minister about seeking a bipartisan solution here, because we all know around this House\u2014and especially after the committee stage debates last night\u2014that there are some things in the legislation which is being repealed which will inevitably need to be brought back in. We\u2019ve already seen that there are provisions which have been saved by this repeal bill, including the fast-track provisions; those are a useful improvement to the 1991 regime. This tabled amendment to clause 5 is about identifying those other parts of the reforms which were recommended by the Randerson review panel that needed to be improved and that have cross-partisan support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe Minister responsible for RMA Reform also said last night that he may well be back in the chair introducing more legislation which deals with bringing in some of those provisions which are being repealed today. So I think it\u2019s important that we all acknowledge in the primary legislation that there is a place for those select committees to do that work and to find common ground here, because that is the work of our Parliament. It is about finding the common ground and a way through in an area of law that has long been overcomplicated. Both major parties agree that there are too many opportunities under the 1991 Act for long plans that do not get used and do not inform our planning process in a way which is constructive and is quick and is nimble. So we all agree that we need to find a faster way through that also protects our natural resources and our natural environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThings like trees were something that the Environment Committee spent a long time on, and there was an eventual coalescence around the views of the committee members who dealt with that issue. Urban trees are something that has long vexed urban planners, and the protection of which, in Auckland at the moment, is a vexed issue. It\u2019s been put entirely on to local councils to determine notified trees. There were something like 600 applications outstanding when I last spoke with the local authority about a tree in my electorate of Manurewa which had not been dealt with, simply because of the capacity issues. That is something that there is a reasonable level of bipartisan support around and is something that the committee should consider if this legislation is referred back to those committees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI\u2019m not suggesting that this legislation would be referred to a new kind of committee, a bipartisan committee. It is still appropriate for the Government to have a majority on the committee that it would be sent to. It\u2019s useful, though, for experts in the room like my colleague the Hon Rachel Brooking to be able to have the discussion in a forum which is a formal forum that we all know how it works, to hash through some of these ideas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe three different tabled amendments also include the regulations. Though that is not one of the most substantive pieces of legislation that is being repealed now, it\u2019s also useful for a committee to consider the effect of the secondary legislation being repealed. The Regulations Review Committee will not have the opportunity to consider those regulations because they are being taken off the statute book, but usually there would be a power in this parliamentary cycle for the Regulations Review Committee to consider how those are operating. So this would give a committee the opportunity to do the work that would have usually been expected by that Regulations Review Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThese three tabled amendments are separate amendments. I have suggested them because I think there is a different case for sending the Spatial Planning Act back to a committee. Whatever we say about the bipartisanship around the Natural and Built Environment Act (NBA), there is certainly coalescence of views around the need for spatial planning in the long term. That Act is a smaller Act, but it does a very different thing; it allows New Zealand to have a long-term framework around spatial\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00220076ebcf8d0f432ba3e92f693841fea2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220076ebcf8d0f432ba3e92f693841fea2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00227f22b7f085934f70b3275c8706515b2a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f22b7f085934f70b3275c8706515b2a\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. It\u2019s good to be back. I thank the member Arena Williams for her constructive amendments. In relation to new clause 5A around the fees and regulations, the Government\u2019s not of a mind to support that. The fees and regulations that have been passed, pursuant to the Natural and Built Environment Act are administrative, to do with forms, fees\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e278f8991ef648fe80218398ba301081\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d like to look at them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0c28b9a8e494a08a58888b83c1aaed6\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sure you would like to look at them, but I\u2019m not sure there\u2019d be much point. In relation to the other new clause 5A, which asks a committee of the House of Representatives to conduct an inquiry in 28 days and report back within six weeks, I\u2019m open to a conversation around that. I think the member is being ambitious with the dates, so, depending on progress of the committee this morning, the Act is scheduled to come into force the day after it receives Royal assent, which will be soon\u2014again, depending on progress. So a committee conducting an inquiry within 28 days\u2014let\u2019s do the math. What are we today? The 19th?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d535b4f7cfab49349a63d5e73e87a213\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: The 20th.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffb07909f8e2469c8fd5d421336bc02a\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: The 20th. Well, it\u2019s the 19th in parliamentary time. So the 20th\u2014so 28 days is 16 or 18 January. Anyway, the point is I\u2019m not sure a parliamentary select committee is going to sit between\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9cc8b99509a494f9f6e4166edaf5c10\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll chair it. It\u2019ll be all good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7c9edd5707f43a2b881a6e86eb508ad\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, really? The member is offering?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221010b3dce3824c6d86be95669d1efa96\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Yep.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d799015f9de645d28fc5b022fd4d67e8\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not sure how your wh\u0101nau feels about that. You might want to text your wh\u0101nau before you commit to that over the Christmas break. Anyway, the point is I\u2019m not sure there\u2019s going to be an inquiry within a month and then report back within six weeks. That would take us through until March. I think the member\u2019s time frames are unrealistic. However, if the member wants to make a case, or other members\u2014I see the Hon Rachel Brooking is smiling\u2014we\u2019d be prepared to consider something with a longer time frame, because I think the substantive point the member makes is that there are some things from the Natural and Built Environment Act which the Government is wishing to proceed. As I said yesterday during the debate on Part 1, we\u2019re taking advice on some useful and substantive amendments that we wish to advance, and I\u2019m not opposed to the idea of a committee doing a bit of work on that. The Environment Committee is a very hard-working committee, with an excellent chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228f868e0-e859-4953-979a-78aa7a3b5e25\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb9a6cff9c7e45b4ae0081f5a7c2eaed\u0022\u003EDarleen Tana\u003C/span\u003E: Fantastic chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229dcfcdd1bc21491cb91c0facc740dffa\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, a very good chair. That\u2019s great\u2014a bit of bipartisan love breaking out in the Parliament. But if the member would like to withdraw the amendment and have perhaps some more realistic time frames\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220acdff96f5804d7b971c90a39d305204\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll amend my amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227291fb206c8d4a64aa135f9e180c715b\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014you\u2019re amending it already; that\u2019s good\u2014the Government is open to considering that amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00224cc4c44d464e4c7ab72dbdab02aaefe5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224cc4c44d464e4c7ab72dbdab02aaefe5\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019ve got a couple of issues I would like to traverse in this contribution with the Minister responsible for RMA Reform, going back to comments that were made in the Chamber last night on Part 2. One of them is around my question around the amendment to section 80A of the Resource Management Act (RMA), and this is the time frame for when councils have to implement the national policy statement on freshwater.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI asked the Minister about what analysis there had been about where councils were at with their progress of that, and the answer was, \u201CWell, we\u2019re going to change the national policy statement; that is the reason for changing the date.\u201D\u2014a paraphrase somewhat there. But then that begs the question about what councils are to do. They have legal requirements, and there are requirements within the RMA to act as effectively and efficiently as possible. There\u2019s a requirement in section 55(2D) of the RMA to put a national policy statement into effect as soon as possible. What are councils to do now that they have had a letter from the Minister saying that it\u2019s going to change, but they don\u2019t know what the change is? And this is very important constitutionally, of course, because, as we all know, Parliament is sovereign, the laws and regulations are those that are on the Table, not ones that the Government intends to make at some future point. If the Minister wants to answer that\u2014or I can go on? I\u2019ll go on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI am interested in being able to jump back up and down with the Minister, as I think that\u2019s what the committee stage has been designed for. I do appreciate, though, that this Minister has been answering many of our questions. But, of course, there was some sadness last night when there were many questions and many amendments on the Table regarding Part 1, and we did not get to those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EOn a different tack, then, you will see in Schedule 2 that there\u2019s a lot of grey highlighted bits, and we can ask questions on all of these. But it may be in the Minister\u2019s interests to go through them and to give some assurance to the committee that these are only technical changes and that there is nothing substantive in them. For instance, there are amendments around Auckland and the spatial planning. I know some members will have some specific questions on different changes. We have not had the time to cross-reference everything to see what these changes mean, because, of course, this is all coming through under urgency\u2014all stages. And there\u2019s a big difference between urgency for different parts of a bill, where you\u2019ve got some time, but this we saw in real time yesterday and in parliamentary time just today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s also questions around\u2014well, last night we had a discussion on a different topic, about the need for reducing plans; I think there was some reference to the Spatial Planning Act. But, of course, it\u2019s the Natural and Built Environment Act that reduces the number of plans from over 100 to 16 regulatory plans. That just seems to be a whole lot more efficient, so how is it that the Minister thinks it\u2019s a good idea to go back to the RMA and the over 100 plans?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI\u2019m also interested in the comments made by the Minister last night about the Spatial Planning Act and the Natural and Built Environment Act, which are both Acts, of course, that are being repealed in Part 2. So it\u2019s our opinion on this side that we can talk about those Acts, and I have some specific questions on them. The Minister was saying that everything that needs to be done in a coherent way\u2014that we have three waters issues going on and there needs to be a structural coherence. Madam Chair, you know that there was a lot of thought that went into the coherence at the select committee stage of both the Finance and Expenditure Committee considering three waters, and the Environment Committee considering these pieces of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo what is the Minister imagining that there needs to be more coherence for that isn\u2019t already included in that Spatial Planning Act, which already enables central government involvement with the different councils within a region to do that long-term planning and thinking about infrastructure? I do have more contributions but I see the Minister is on his feet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u002235a4c1aa75a84dceaf243d29a5bfe731\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002235a4c1aa75a84dceaf243d29a5bfe731\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for her questions and am happy to engage in a dialogue back and forth. I don\u2019t have her level of expertise on the Resource Management Act, but I\u2019ll do my best to answer the questions. I\u2019ll just go through them one by one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIn relation to the extension of the freshwater deadlines, the member asked what councils are meant to do. Councils are meant to follow the law. I am not Rob Muldoon. As I\u2019ve said\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261f1c77cf95542d98f86ef2a7bdc90c5\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Ha! The similarity has not gone unnoticed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bd44316c2e24892aa4df2e56733024f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. As I\u2019ve said to Parliament many times, if members come to my office, as she\u2019s very welcome to do, on the way into the office you will find a printed copy of Fitzgerald v Muldoon, the entire judgment, framed, on the way into my office, to remind myself that Parliament is sovereign in this country and Governments can\u2019t suspend the law by press release. We are not purporting to do that. We have given councils an extra three years from 2024 through to 2027 in the development of their freshwater plans. Contemporaneously with that, the Government is advancing work that has started, that is under way now, led by Minister Simmonds, alongside other colleagues, to repeal, replace, and rebalance the National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management 2020. There\u2019s widespread consensus, at least on the Government benches, that the current hierarchy needs to be rebalanced, and so that work will flow in due course. This is just a simple amendment to extend the time frame.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIn relation to the other question she had, which was the second question, which was all the bits in grey, as she put it\u2014and she wanted an assurance that these are technical amendments\u2014I\u2019m advised that, yes, they are. They just go through that process of taking the law back to what it was, basically, and the only substantive amendment is the extension of the time frame that we\u2019ve just been talking about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIn relation to her third question about the Spatial Planning Act, well, I think the member answered her question through her own comments, which is\u2014look, reasonable people can agree to disagree about spatial planning but I think everyone would agree that it needs to be done in a structured and coherent way alongside local government and alongside any potential changes around water infrastructure, which the previous Government was advancing and the current Government remains committed to as well, in a different form.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EI just think it\u2019s important we get that right, because one of the things we heard during the select committee process from local government was they just had an avalanche of stuff being thrown at them from central government. One of the points many councils made was, well, what is going to be the point of regional councils under the new Natural and Built Environment Act and Spatial Planning Act, because the Government was essentially rendering a lot of their powers and their abilities nugatory\u2014because we were establishing these new regional planning committees\u2014and what would regional councils do? It\u2019s a legitimate question. There were unanswered questions around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EWe are interested in spatial planning, and the member, and other members too, have raised good points around the ability to lower long-term infrastructure costs to better plan our cities and our regions. The member knows I\u2019m very deeply interested in infrastructure planning and housing, and I\u2019d say it\u2019s the biggest problem facing this country, and social planning\u2019s a part of that, but it\u2019s important we do it in a structured and coherent way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00223b2376042c7745bd9a040424d16de87a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b2376042c7745bd9a040424d16de87a\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. So following on from that answer by the Minister\u2014and I thank him for getting to his feet so quickly\u2014can he explain what he means by \u201CRegional councils would have nothing to do under the Spatial Planning Act and the Natural and Built Environment Act\u201D? It\u2019s important to understand that those are two different pieces of legislation. The Spatial Planning Act is one that involves central government and the councils\u2014the regional council, the district councils, the unitary authorities, whatever you want to call them; all the councils. Regional councils, under the Resource Management Act (RMA), under the Natural and Built Environment Act, under the Spatial Planning Act, continue to do what regional councils have done since they were created, and that is their focus on the environment\u2014their focus on water quality and air quality, in particular. That is why it\u2019s so important that we have good water plans, which should be delivered well before 2027, in my opinion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo I honestly do not know what the Minister means when he says, \u201CWell, what would regional councils be doing?\u201D Regional councils would remain having those functions around air and water quality, biodiversity\u2014there\u2019s hazards, there\u2019s other elements as well\u2014but the fundamental is that they are environmental regulators. Why is that a reason to repeal the Spatial Planning Act, which largely doesn\u2019t have very much to do with the ins and outs of environmental bottom lines? That\u2019s in the Natural and Built Environment Act; that makes little sense. Also, though, again\u2014the Minister said I answered my own question about why spatial planning needs to be done in a coherent way, but this was done in a coherent way; this does enable spatial plans to look at water infrastructure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m interested in those questions, and then some different questions\u2014and I thank the Minister for his comment on the grey areas as well. Why is it that so many parts of the RMA that have been widely regarded as wildly inefficient are being gone back to, rather than using the provisions that could have been rolled over from the Natural and Built Environment Act or the Spatial\u2014well, the Natural and Built Environment Act in particular, because, obviously, that is the one that directly refers to the RMA? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EYou can think of the Natural and Built Environment Act as a replacement RMA. The Spatial Planning Act\u2014that is new. The idea of a climate adaptation Act\u2014that is new as well. These are both different functions. The Natural and Built Environment Act is the one that has the regulatory plans under it, where you have to go to get consents. In my mind, you could have the Spatial Planning Act with the RMA\u2014they could still work quite easily. There\u2019s no reason to be repealing the Spatial Planning Act. You could easily\u2014I mean, of course you\u2019d need to do some amendments to it so it referred to different legislation, but obviously the Parliamentary Counsel Office is well versed in this, and I have faith that they could do that very easily.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo I say to the Minister: (1) there is no need to repeal the Spatial Planning Act at all; (2) has there been any consideration of, for instance, not reverting to section 32 of the RMA? Section 32 is a very long analysis process that takes a lot of time. It is normally done after decisions have been made, which is unfortunate, and just adds a whole lot of inefficiency into the process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen there\u2019s other changes that were made in the Natural and Built Environment Act, including reducing the number of consent categories, and this was to make the system simpler. At the moment, under the RMA, you have non-complying resource consent categories, and non-complying resource consents have a convoluted test, at section 104D of the RMA, that requires a lot of decision making from the councils that just seems unnecessary if you can already have a plan that specifies what the considerations can be. So I\u2019m seeking an answer on those questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa50e25e1d4e4975bff69286afa11fcf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa50e25e1d4e4975bff69286afa11fcf\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Just as the Minister responsible for RMA Reform is considering his answers, let me take the committee back. I\u2019ve now written an amendment to my amendment that the Minister was considering whether or not to support. Because it\u2019s not on the Table yet, I will just take the committee through it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMy amendment to Part 2\u2014new clause 5A\u2014if amended would read: \u201CSubject to section 5, a committee of the House of Representatives must initiate an inquiry within 90 days of the Act coming into force and report to the House of Representatives within 12 weeks on those parts of the Natural and Built Environment Act 2023 and the Spatial Planning Act 2023 that should be reinstated or given effect in policy.\u201D This amendment now lengthens out the time frames available to the Minister not only to refer it to the committee but also for that committee to report back. It would fold in both of those two pieces of legislation into the committee\u2019s inquiry; however, that wouldn\u2019t prohibit or exclude the Minister from directing the committee to focus on the Spatial Planning Act if that was the Act that it was deemed there was more cross-partisan interest in improving and putting back in some form on to the statute book. I won\u2019t use all of my time discussing that amendment, because there are a number of other amendments\u2014six, actually\u2014that I haven\u2019t spoken to yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ELet me deal with the fourth; it\u2019s a replacement of clause 6 with an amendment that would, essentially, hold off on the consequential amendments in Part 2 to Te Ture Whenua Maori Act 1993 and Taumata Arowai, the Water Services Regulator Act 2020. The reason for holding off on those, and it\u2019s only suggested in this clause that it would be a nine-month hold-off, is that for Te Ture Whenua Maori Act to be amended\u2014that\u2019s on page 67 of my copy of the amendment bill\u2014it requires a number of amendments to how things like subdivision consents would be considered. The issue that I\u2019m raising here for the committee\u2019s consideration is that, with a nine-month period to consider how the Act that is being repealed\u2014the Natural and Build Environment hierarchy of how concepts in Te Ao M\u0101ori should be taken into account\u2014when in Te Ture Whenua Maori Act you\u2019re giving effect to the powers of communal owners, and going back to the 1991 provisions should be taken into account, because they\u2019re not the same; they create a different kind of hierarchy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EIn the 1991 Act, we have a hierarchy where kaitiakitanga is meant to be given effect in those decisions. In the new Natural and Built Environment Act, we have a new way of giving effect to those values that are important to Te Ao M\u0101ori, with concepts like Te Mana o te Wai. Now, whatever you think about those considerations, on any side of the House, they are different, but we\u2019re requiring an immediate whiplash in decisions that are made under Te Ture Whenua Maori Act to go back to the 1991 system that have been being made under the new provisions\u2014particularly things like subdivision consents and the powers under Te Ture Whenua Maori Act for communal M\u0101ori land owners to move their land from general freehold land to reserves, or what are called whenua t\u014Dp\u016B; these trust ownership models that own what was freehold land now in a trust environment where they do not pay rates and they are held in reserve for the good of not only the owners but also of the wider public.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s a move that you can see in other kinds of corporate law as going from privately held assets to publicly held ones, which is like a move to a charity. When you give consideration to that kind of decision which is given power by Te Ture Whenua Maori Act, you have a situation where people are doing something which is generally for the public good, and we allow them those powers that are different from any other situation where, say, directors of a company move to a charitable context, because we think that there is good for the public but there is also good for kaitiakitanga and for those values. But the values are different here. The new legislation proposes a different sort of values system that the decision makers, which may be the M\u0101ori Land Court or it may be those owners who hold it in trust for the good of their descendants, should take into account.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo those decisions will be different. We need some time to work through how those decisions are different, and I want the Minister to consider giving nine months to be able to consider how the hierarchy is different, given that a number of these decisions will be in train within the M\u0101ori Land Court setting and within trust boardrooms around the country right now. Giving it more time will allow us to make sure that those decisions are done in a way which gives effect to the law as it is proposed by the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6c52f52df4646839faaf2b374ded6bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6c52f52df4646839faaf2b374ded6bd\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I thought that contribution from my colleague Arena Williams was outstanding, and it\u2019s in that vein where we are coming up to this anomaly when we look towards the repeal bill here. I want to bring the Minister responsible for RMA Reform\u2019s attention to the amendments to the Marine and Coastal Area (Takutai Moana) Act 2011.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ENg\u0101ti Apa took a claim to the Waitangi Tribunal and actually ended up in the High Court, where the High Court decided the customary rights of Ng\u0101ti Apa in Te Tau Ihu o te Waka. The rest is history, really\u2014that sparked the foreshore hikoi, and what it did was it forced the Government of the day to look towards bits of legislation that allowed tribes to have the ability to apply for customary rights through the courts. Actually, it was our former colleague the Hon Christopher Finlayson who I thought did a very inspired job there to tidy up something to allow M\u0101ori the avenue towards application for customary rights on Takutai Moana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister: in repealing the coastal permit\u2014and it\u2019s slightly in the vein of my colleague Arena Williams\u2014what we\u2019re effectively doing here is reverting the coastal permit laws back to 1991, which gave rise to the Ng\u0101ti Apa claim which ended up in the High Court and forced the High Court decision which led to the foreshore and seabed and, ultimately, the Marine and Coastal Area (Takutai Moana) Act. So that\u2019s the first question: in doing so, are we diluting M\u0101ori\u2019s ability to be able to take these particular claims of coastal permit into the legal realm, to apply for customary title?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe second question, just very quickly, is with respect to the customary title right, for those under the Marine and Coastal Area (Takutai Moana) Act 2011, there have been quite a large number of iwi who are already involved in a process to try and achieve a customary title right. I\u2019m curious if the Minister knows what will happen with those cases. We know\u2014and I may be corrected by some of the members in the House here\u2014that there\u2019s only been one application that\u2019s got across the line that resulted in the Ng\u0101 Hap\u016B o Ng\u0101ti Porou legislation. But there are no less than seven others who are already going through this particular process, and whether or not this repeal of the definition of \u201Ccoastal permit\u201D will affect those particular members or tribes who are pushing through their coastal claim. I think these are important questions. I know, as I said already, Mr Finlayson, I thought, through legal instruments, actually provided a really good way of getting through the customary title argument and debate on the Marine and Coastal Area (Takutai Moana) Act. So I\u2019d really like to hear from the Minister on those matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022092cb143b5fc437fa056817f07e2a55f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022092cb143b5fc437fa056817f07e2a55f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I agree with the member who resumed his seat, the Hon Peeni Henare, around the elegant solution that Parliament came to with the Marine and Coastal Area (Takutai Moana) Act. Although, as the member will be aware, we do have concerns around one of the more recent judgments in relation to that Act. Parliament has made its intention clear and it\u2019s not clear to us that the courts are taking the right approach to it. But in a general sense, I accept the member\u2019s point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThis repeal bill has nothing to do with that. So any existing claims that are before the courts or going through the process remain so; they will work their way through the process. The Ng\u0101ti Apa decision of the Court of Appeal in 2003\u2014I respect the member\u2019s knowledge of the matter, but that\u2019s not going to happen, so I wouldn\u2019t be too worried about that. All it does, as I\u2019ve said many times, is take out the last three months and go back to what we had under the 1991 Act. There is no intention to upturn or overturn any existing processes or settlements or anything like that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThat also, I think, deals with Ms Williams\u2019 point around changes to Te Ture Whenua Maori Act. Again, in the sense that changes around that that were seen as an advancement are being undone: yes, that is true\u2014reasonable people can disagree or agree on that. But we are just going back to what the law was up until three months ago. So that\u2019s the easiest way to think about the bill. Parliament is essentially rejecting the changes made just three or four months ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIn relation to her select committee referral motion, which she\u2019s had another go at, I see she\u2019s moderated her demands\u2014demand\u2019s probably a bit strong\u2014moderated her inquiry request a little bit; 90 days. The House must conduct an inquiry within 90 days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223058c4d77ea645b185e6f1dfaa6e000a\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a 90-day trial.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221bf7386ec344682843174b01bc21b38\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! Yep, yep. Well, 28 days of that time, people will be at the beach; cute Mr McAnulty will be playing cricket and Ms Williams will be at those beautiful North Shore beaches. So I think that might be a little bit ambitious. I am prepared to consider it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe other option, of course, is that Ministers or the Government write to a parliamentary select committee and ask them to do a short, sharp, targeted piece of work around what bits of the Natural and Built Environment Act (NBA) the Government may wish to advance. Because, as I have said to the House previously, it\u2019s inevitable that we will keep some of the more sensible technical amendments in relation to the Resource Management Act (RMA). Because, although it\u2019s sort of been advertised that the NBA repeals the RMA, it doesn\u2019t\u2014actually, David Parker is partly to blame for that, because David Parker stood up in Parliament on many occasions and said, \u201CWe\u2019re repealing the RMA; National\u2019s opposed to it,\u201D and, actually, it doesn\u2019t. The RMA continues in its existence for quite some time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b56f7068e88348eabd9b62b862ffc995\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve been waiting a long time to make that point, haven\u2019t you?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb3c350eed77467f8731d8e9a3f9e42f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: What was that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e9a83c596564912a568e95268e2429f\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve been waiting a long time to make that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271d3357d6dc64ebca449f30d56ab08bd\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, which is why we don\u2019t need to be here today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230f46c3cf9404f93b52b520ad0a6bd79\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, well, we could finish up right now, vote, and get out of here. But, you know, it\u2019s entirely over to you guys.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef7f6d639e004d229de7ff98ea06b0d9\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: No, you remove it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ca88b408fc94b289b4f6652c52f3277\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m happy to keep answering your questions. So that deals with that issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EJust going back to what Rachel Brooking said in relation to the Spatial Planning Act, the member\u2019s very exercised about why the Government\u2019s keen to get rid of this. I think I\u2019ve given a few reasons already, which is that we want a structurally coherent way around spatial planning. The other bit is that it is not possible to unpick the changes made through the Spatial Planning Act (SPA) from the NBA. So, for example, clause 5 of the SPA inserts a strengthened Treaty clause around giving effect to the Treaty. Our preference is for \u201Chave regard to\u201D the Treaty, as is in the current RMA. Clause 6 contains the language around te Oranga o te Taiao, which we\u2019ve canvassed in Part 1 and the first and second reading. The SPA purpose clause makes it clear that the purpose of the SPA is to uphold commitments made through the NBA. So, yes, they\u2019re separate Acts, but they\u2019re clearly interlinked and it\u2019s impossible to unpick them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe other thing, of course, is that the SPA\u2014and the NBA, for that matter\u2014kicks off a 10-year transition time frame. The Government\u2019s taken the view that rather than councils and decision makers starting to apply the law and get started on it, we\u2019ve taken a decision that it\u2019s best to get it off the statute books\u2014[Bell rung] Madam Chair, I\u2019ll just answer this briefly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263a88d6fefdd4617bf49e7f96d994d78\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Chris Bishop.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222eecbba155e94981a18e4e805bf6d595\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll just take a couple more seconds. We\u2019ve taken the view that it\u2019s best to get it off the statute books so that everyone has certainty. I actually think we\u2019re doing everyone a favour. It\u2019s no longer going to be the law if Parliament passes it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe other point I would make is something that I don\u2019t think I\u2019ve mentioned before, which is that I\u2019ve decided to retain the Spatial Planning Board, which is not actually set up through the NBA or SPA; it\u2019s set up through the Public Service Act. I have decided to retain the Spatial Planning Board while we work out our own approach to spatial planning. But the idea of getting agencies together into a room\u2014as the member knows from her time as a Minister\u2014is very, very useful. So the Spatial Planning Board will continue, and in due course we will work out exactly what the Government\u2019s approach to spatial planning is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u002209cdd46816904cf187a6a9cfe09a3f35\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002209cdd46816904cf187a6a9cfe09a3f35\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I\u2019m pleased to have the opportunity to make my first call in this contribution. It will be, I hope, one of many. There was an instance last night where, in raising a point of order, the presiding officer conceded that there were relevant spokespeople on this side of the Chamber that didn\u2019t get an opportunity to speak. The presiding officer said that was a fair point. So just registering now that there is, through my portfolios of local government, housing, and, to some degree, regional development, a desire to touch on those. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThere is also a desire from the finance spokesperson to speak to this Part. However, the Opposition showed, I think, the sort of collegiality that we expect in Parliament at Business Committee last night, and agreed to allow the Government to release their financial details today, which wouldn\u2019t normally occur under urgency. But because we were quite happy to agree to that, he is now working on that. So just registering our desire for him to contribute as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThe reason I\u2019ve said that is because last night we also got an assurance from the presiding officer that now that we\u2019re in Part 2, we can speak specifically to the parts of the Acts that are being proposed to be repealed. Specifically, within the Spatial Planning Act 2023, there is clear reference to the Water Services Entities Act 2022. So the first question that I have in regards to the local government portfolio and the proposal to repeal the Spatial Planning Act is: how does that then align with what is currently in the Act around the Water Services Entities Act? Because we do know it is the Government\u2019s intention to repeal that also, but that hasn\u2019t happened. We don\u2019t know when that will happen, and we don\u2019t know details about that. So, in repealing the Spatial Planning Act, that then puts local authorities in difficult positions when it comes to water services. We know what the intention is, but we also know another provision will be put in place. We don\u2019t know the details yet, and I don\u2019t intend to ask that today. I don\u2019t think that will be relevant. But what is relevant is what local councils do in the interim. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EWe do know that local councils as a whole made it very clear that they were unable to do what was expected of them in their local areas under the old Resource Management Act situation. But by repealing this, we go back to that. What is different, however, is that we have, currently anyway, a situation where councils are preparing for the establishment of water entities, and, in the case of Northland and Auckland, that is very well advanced. So what happens to those councils in the interim, when they are put back to the old planning structure, whilst also being required, for the time being, to prepare for the establishment of water entities? We know that councils are in a dire financial situation. We recognise that they have indicated concern about how their financial situation could get more difficult if this is put back. In the context of water services, I think it is important and relevant to get an understanding of the Minister\u2019s thinking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022 data-id=\u0022945ae44cac5b462ea60af8ac29463ca4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022945ae44cac5b462ea60af8ac29463ca4\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019d like to pick up, specifically, on the aspect of the bill that seeks to extend the deadline for regional councils to notify plans. As was so accurately pointed out by 50 freshwater experts and leaders in their letter to the Prime Minister just on Monday, the health of the country\u2019s waterways are already under immense pressure, and I\u2019m sure the Minister responsible for RMA Reform is aware of that. In light of this, I\u2019ve tabled an amendment that specifically deletes section 80A from Schedule 2 of the bill, which seeks to extend the deadline of regional councils to notify plans. Currently, it\u2019s at 31\u00A0December 2024, but the proposal that the Government have on the table is to extend that to December 2027. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EJust for some context as to why I\u2019ve put down this amendment\u2014and I really invite the Minister to respond to this\u2014before entering politics, I worked as a freshwater ecologist, and it would be remiss of me not to highlight the issue to members of this committee, who may not be aware of the current state of freshwater in this country, which would be directly impacted by the proposed section. I just want to paint a really brief snapshot of that, from our latest freshwater report that the Ministry for the Environment put out. That\u2019s things like the fact that 76 percent of our native freshwater fish are endangered; over 40 percent, and specifically 46 percent, of our lakes are in poor or very poor health; and ecosystem health\u2014and this relates to both the freshwater invertebrates or the bugs that live in our freshwater environments\u201456 percent of freshwater sites are worsening; and E. coli contamination is worsening at 41 percent of freshwater sites. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EThrough my time, again, before entering this House, I was a councillor for two terms on Environment Canterbury and I heard just the surface of the immeasurable losses that ng\u0101 r\u016Bnanga and wh\u0101nau of Ng\u0101i Tahu suffered as mana whenua, particularly hearing from those across Waitaha Canterbury but also the wider Te Waipounamu area. I also heard a lot about the heartbreak of tangata Tiriti or non-M\u0101ori communities who have experienced the damage and degradation of their local freshwater ways, just over the last few decades. For these people, they have had over a decade of community processes\u2014planning processes\u2014without national direction that upholds ecological integrity and Te Mana o te Wai. Ultimately, when it comes to environmental outcomes, this has simply resulted in a lot of talking, a lot of money spent, but, ultimately, ongoing environmental decline. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003ESo I would really like to hear from the Minister how he would justify his Government\u2019s proposed delay of another three years of this deadline for regional councils, for communities who really want to see this timely, measurable improvement in their freshwater environment and see Te Mana o te Wai enacted in their local areas. I really want to encourage the Minister to consider this amendment that would actually keep freshwater improvement back on track like his Government intends.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022f46a9327f5834493ba6a751eb9a59e0d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f46a9327f5834493ba6a751eb9a59e0d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Just before I take the next call, I just want to let the committee know that I\u2019m just waiting for some work that\u2019s being done, so I\u2019m not intending to take some closure motions at this point because we\u2019re having a bit of a constructive debate going on here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022b174272ed425456880e5b67f89765cec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b174272ed425456880e5b67f89765cec\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I have five questions about my Amendment Paper 9 for the Minister responsible for RMA Reform. I hope we can have a back and forth discussion about these questions, and I will be very quick on my feet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe first two questions about Amendment Paper 9, which is to delete all amendments to the Urban Development Act 2020\u2014that\u2019s in Part 2, on page 68. These are about the Treaty of Waitangi clause that has changed, and there are a number of Treaty of Waitangi clauses in the consequential amendments that do change, but it would be helpful to just examine this one amendment here so that the House can get some comfort about all of those Treaty of Waitangi amendments. I hope we can use this as an exemplar. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMy first question to the Minister is: does the amendment that he proposes create a hierarchy where the purpose of the Urban Development Act subordinates the Treaty of Waitangi principles? My question here is because the amendment that the Minister is proposing inserts the words first \u201Cin achieving the purpose of this Act\u201D, which is new as compared to the Urban Development Act, where it simply says all persons performing a function under this Act. So there\u2019s a first reference there to the purpose of the Urban Development Act, and I want to know whether the amendment that he proposes creates a hierarchy whereby the purpose of the Act comes first in the decision maker\u2019s mind, and then the effect of the Treaty principles comes in next. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EAs he\u2019s considering that, I will ask my second question, which is about the practical effect of the change that he is proposing, and bear in mind that this is a change all throughout the section; it\u2019s not just about the Urban Development Act. So, this is a major change. The second question to the Minister is: is he aware of any incidences where this provision has had a practical effect, in this circumstance in K\u0101inga Ora\u2019s decision making, but in the context of other Government decision making? So what I\u2019m asking here is: is there any incidence where, after the change was made in 2022-23 where decision makers were not subject to a hierarchy, where they were considering the purpose of an Act first before considering the principles of Te Tiriti o Waitangi, is the Minister aware of any incidences where they made a different sort of decision or any incidences where their policy or procedures were impacted because they had to give effect to the principles of Te Tiriti o Waitangi first before considering the purposes of the Act? Those are two questions of five.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022c52dc31cd690483eafeb60225abde98a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c52dc31cd690483eafeb60225abde98a\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform):\u003C/span\u003E I can answer this very simply: the change made through the Natural and Built Environment Act (NBA) strengthened the Treaty provision of the Urban Development Act. The change we are making through this bill goes back to what the law was prior to the passage of the NBA. As I have said multiple times now, it is actually quite a simple piece of legislation, notwithstanding the saving of the fast track. We are going back to what the law was\u2014with some exceptions\u2014prior to the passage of the NBA. So, in answer to the member\u2019s second question about practical effect, there is, essentially, no practical effect. Nothing has happened in the last three months because of the changed Treaty provision in the Urban Development Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00223c10fb19b9804e069afeafb91e1c7b73\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c10fb19b9804e069afeafb91e1c7b73\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciate the opportunity to ask my next questions in light of the Minister responsible for RMA Reform\u2019s answer that there is no practical effect. My suggestion here is that the House should certainly consider my Amendment Paper 9 to delete all amendments to the Urban Development Act 2020 in light of that answer, given that there is no practical effect. The symbolic nature of the change that happened in 2023 is important for the way that the public servants can conduct their affairs. It is simpler for the public servants to have one indication, not this couched, hierarchical way of considering their decisions. It cuts down the litigation risk because it means that the policy decisions made at a K\u0101inga Ora level are easier and more straightforward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EBut, given that, I want to ask my third and fourth and fifth questions to the Minister. In the context of the Urban Development Act, is the urban development purpose of the Act at odds with the principles of Te Tiriti o Waitangi? Is there any balancing there that is being required by the new wording that the Minister proposes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMy fourth question is: does the difference between the new amendment words which are \u201Ctake into account the principles\u201D, and the old wording, which was \u201Cgive effect to the principles\u201D\u2014in the Minister\u2019s mind, is there a difference in those two things? Would he expect, as the Minister responsible for K\u0101inga Ora, for decision makers within K\u0101inga Ora to treat those two things differently? He said that there is no practical difference. I want him to clarify for the House, then, what the difference is between those words: \u201Ctake into account the principles of Te Tiriti o Waitangi\u201D, which is the new amendment that he proposes, and the old words, \u201Cgive effect to the principles of Te Tiriti o Waitangi\u201D, which is what this side of the House would prefer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe fifth question is that\u2014if, in fact, there is a difference, then this provision does not belong in the consequential amendments. This House will get itself into trouble if we make this kind of decision in a consequential amendment to Part 2 of an amendment bill which is buried on page 68. Because if there is a difference to the way that decision makers give effect to Te Tiriti o Waitangi, which is a part of our constitutional law in New Zealand, then it should not be a consequential amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u002297ac65fd463e400ba410fc55bb17ac25\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002297ac65fd463e400ba410fc55bb17ac25\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform):\u003C/span\u003E As I\u2019ve said about five times now, we are going back to what the law was\u2014it\u2019s as simple as that. I know the member\u2019s trying to create something that isn\u2019t there. It\u2019s really quite simple: the Act used to say \u201Ctake into account\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227acbf25b679a48d08177e84b4af2239e\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Dean\u2019s going to tweet about you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9c81d3e8ccf48a7907e12fe8554eef8\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I mean, he tweets a lot about me. But, you know\u2014good luck to him. So the member is really grasping at straws.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022 data-id=\u0022330d6a46b67244caae7489906929f691\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022330d6a46b67244caae7489906929f691\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to the Minister responsible for RMA Reform for giving me but a moment of his time. Suffice it to say, there\u2019s a few issues in the freshwater space, and I know the Hon Rachel Brooking alluded to it earlier on. I\u2019m cognisant of the settings in and around the national policy statement (NPS) for 2020, and what he expects the councils to do in the interim\u2014if he could give some clarity for those that may have tuned in\u2014prior to the extension that he alluded to. I\u2019m sure he\u2019s got some offerings and words he might want to share with the committee for certainty. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u002203ac7571f5834f8eba9d6dae7c905056\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002203ac7571f5834f8eba9d6dae7c905056\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and I appreciate the opportunity to have this robust conversation about this, because this is a substantial change. The Minister responsible for RMA Reform refers to it just going back to three months ago, but, of course, what we have achieved in long-fought struggles to achieve environmental outcomes have taken years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EOne of those struggles has been the return of general tree protection. Now, if you want to take it back to the 1990s, in fact, we had general tree protection in the original version of the Resource Management Act (RMA). We had it there. So that is one instance where the RMA was better than what we\u2019ve had since the amendments were made in 2009 and 2012 to the RMA. Up until three months ago, we had no general tree protection, and then we got it back. We\u2019re not just going back three months; we\u2019re going back over 10 years, to 2009.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e893f2ce60e435bb5c10cb0a4093d9d\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Great leaps backwards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022075d6ef2b1984d57b77763dc42ce2ad5\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: These big steps backwards in that environmental space, that ecological space, as my colleague Lan Pham talks about in terms of the water space\u2014these are things that people in the community have argued for and fought for, for many, many years, to finally get them recognised in the legislative frameworks that protect the collective commons, which is our environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EI want to speak to a very specific amendment regarding general tree protection. It\u2019s an amendment to Part 4 of Schedule 2, after the amendment to section 58H, at page 105, after line 6. We want to bring back the right of councils to protect trees. This was brought back in the Natural and Built Environment Act. It was in the original Resource Management Act 1991. If you want to take it back to the 1990s, bring back this as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EI feel that in my town where I come from\u2014in Auckland\u2014there is a heartbreak on a weekly basis. When people go to work and the tree that they pass at the end of their street that\u2019s been there for a hundred years\u2014they come back from work and it\u2019s gone, and there\u2019s no by or leave, there\u2019s no say, and there\u2019s no input from the community on it. I was part of a campaign in Avondale to save a magnificent arboretum of native trees at Canal Road. The community spent 245 days trying to save that stand and it is gone, and that is the consequence of us not having general tree protection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EI took great heart from the select committee this year that you were sitting on, Mr Bishop, and in your comments at that select committee, and this is why I am hopeful that you will support this amendment. You said\u2014and I paraphrase\u2014\u201CI am fast coming to the view that we need some sort of general tree protection in this country, not just for livable cities and for the climate\u201D, and you are absolutely correct about that. For us to have livable cities, trees provide extraordinary amenity. They absorb moisture, they hold the land together, they provide urban cooling\u2014they\u2019re like magnificent outdoor air-conditioning units. I invite you this summer to sit under a big tree and find out just how incredible their services are. They sequester carbon. They take carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere and turn it into wood. It\u2019s not magic; it\u2019s real\u2014it\u2019s called nature. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThey do incredible things in our cities and they make our cities more livable. They make density done well a good thing, when you retain those mature trees. If you allow those trees to have no status and no protection, they will be gone, and that is what we\u2019ve seen. We\u2019ve seen a third of our urban ngahere lost in the last decade in T\u0101maki-makau-rau Auckland, and it\u2019s awful for Aucklanders. It\u2019s magnificent to come here to Wellington and see how you\u2019ve got this incredible green belt still intact. It needs a legal status, it needs protection, and I urge you to seriously consider this amendment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThis is a very reasonable thing that most people across our community agree we need. We need general tree protection. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00226f5c166540bf443c9fd67e52eb3e1847\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f5c166540bf443c9fd67e52eb3e1847\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Let me deal with a few of the questions. Just on the freshwater stuff in the questions asked by Ms Pham and also Mark Cameron, the Government has made its position clear on that: we are extending the deadline for notification of council instruments through to 2027. That allows enough time for the Government to go through the process of repeal, replace, and rebalance, and there\u2019ll be further information to come about that in due course. It\u2019ll be led by the Hon Penny Simmonds, the Hon Andrew Hoggard, and the Hon Todd McClay\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac23054646ef4c6b9973df0deda50de9\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: What are you balancing towards, Bish? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd6801cde0c94cc099d8b1bc58e8e476\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014to work through that process. Well, we\u2019re rebalancing, and you will have to wait and see. All Christmases don\u2019t come at once, Ms Swarbrick\u2014you\u2019ll just have to wait. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EOn the issue of water services, just to deal with Mr McAnulty\u2019s point from, I think, a few minutes ago, this bill doesn\u2019t really have anything to do with it, to be honest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202c8afbd79c149adb9ccb241ca1456ba\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: I disagree. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233a30ff8cf9d4312b1ac568440b54392\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, OK, you feel free. But the Government is working through a process around three waters reform, which is being led by Simeon Brown, the Minister of Local Government, and we are going through a process which the Minister will talk more about in due course. But the Government\u2019s policy position is very clear, which is: council ownership, council control, and remove mandatory co-governance provisions. But it is important that we fix the water infrastructure crisis that is afflicting our councils and our communities. We\u2019ve got to go through a proper process to get that right and repeal three waters. Simeon Brown will have more to say about that in due course. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIn relation to Mr Abel\u2019s point about urban tree protection, it\u2019s good to see you picked up on my comments to the select committee from a few months ago. We\u2019re not going to support his amendment, but I am happy to have a conversation around how we can do better as a country with doing density\u2014and our cities are going to become more dense in the future. It\u2019s an inevitable by-product of urbanisation and the growing population, and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261fafce785e64398954b85d1ca647b07\u0022\u003EScott Willis\u003C/span\u003E: The conversation is nice, but a rule is good. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221be7ad7ec76451194d31e4803b0d458\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, well, you know\u2014all good things take time, Mr Willis. [Interruption] Well, if you\u2019d just listen to me, I\u2019m saying\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bf5dcc96d5c4bb1ae695c0545c3a63f\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re delaying it another three years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb62698fbe2a4ad79dae95cda9fb040c\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m happy to have the conversation around it. We\u2019re not going to support the amendment, but I think there is a balance to be struck around how you can do better density and get more trees in our cities to encourage denser living but, at the same time, balance that against property rights, because, by definition, urban tree protection that protects trees on private property has an impact on people\u2019s land but also the way in which we plan our cities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m happy to have a conversation about it. I take the member\u2019s point, but we won\u2019t be accepting the amendment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u0022358e6bfdd84443b0b05c51bd0bf4ecb0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022358e6bfdd84443b0b05c51bd0bf4ecb0\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. The difficulty with not having a select committee process and this bill going through under urgency is that the committee has to put a lot of trust in the drafters of this bill and the proof-checking of the bill to ensure that it meets the policy intent of the Government of the day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EI have only in the last hour been able to go through Part 1 of Schedule 2, through the Airport Authorities Act, the Aquaculture Reform (Repeals and Transitional Provisions) Act\u2014these are all the consequential amendments as a result of this bill\u2014the Auckland Improvement Trust Act, the Biosecurity Act. Now, I had to stop at the Biosecurity Act because this is where I think there has been an omission, and I want to get a clarification from the Minister responsible for RMA Reform that it is an intentional omission from this bill. So under the heading \u201CBiosecurity Act\u201D it states, \u201CIn section 7A(1) and (4), replace \u201CPart 2 of the Natural and Built Environment Act 2023\u201D with \u201CPart 3 of the Resource Management Act 1991\u201D in each place.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ESo if you look at Part 2 of the Natural and Built Environment Act, you see that Part 2 is in relation to the duties, responsibilities, and the restrictions in that particular Act, which this bill is repealing. Section 17 of the Act, which this bill is repealing, has a requirement around environmental responsibility, and, again, I tie this back to the Biosecurity Act, and that has the purpose of protecting New Zealand\u2019s borders from biosecurity threats\u2014it\u2019s really serious stuff. It has serious penalties, and for anybody who\u2019s in the primary industries or has an interest in the primary industries in New Zealand, it\u2019s really important that this is made really clear. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ESo Part 2 of the Natural and Built Environment Act has section 17, \u201CEnvironmental responsibility\u201D. It states, \u201C(1) Consistently with the ethic of stewardship, every person has a responsibility to protect and sustain the health and well-being of the natural environment for the benefit of both present and future generations, including as required by section 18\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ESo after a bill is passed, officials will provide some guidance to the rest of the country as to how you interpret the law. Under that guidance that\u2019s been provided by the Ministry for the Environment, it says that clearly this is a new duty and responsibility. It says the purpose must be achieved in ways that first and foremost protect the health of the natural environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThe second thing that\u2019s most important about it is that it futureproofs it. It futureproofs the environmental responsibility so that, basically, the decision makers of today have to ensure that they take into account how they can futureproof the protection\u2014again, I go back to the Biosecurity Act\u2014of the biosecurity of the country. So, basically, when you make decisions, take into account the duties and responsibilities in those provisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EMy concern is that by replacing this just squarely with Part 3 of the RMA, there is no duty and responsibility because that is within the Natural and Built Environment Act. So I\u2019m just wanting to make really clear: is it the Minister\u2019s intention that there is no longer this very specific duty, which is set out in the Natural and Built Environment Act, \u201CConsistently with the ethic of stewardship, every person has a responsibility to protect and sustain the health and well-being of the natural environment for the benefit of both present and future generations, including as required by section 18.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ESo I just want to ask the Minister that. Because he is transferring this straight from Part 2 and going straight to Part 3, is it an intentional omission not to have that environmental responsibility duty on decision makers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00228c228f80b713437badeebd7e7b3d14b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c228f80b713437badeebd7e7b3d14b5\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform):\u003C/span\u003E As I have said about eight, nine, maybe 10 times now, we are going back to the Resource Management Act 1991\u2014it\u2019s pretty simple.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002281a087c85652461b864fedcb1b962f99\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281a087c85652461b864fedcb1b962f99\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Just before I take\u2014I\u2019ve been watching this debate carefully for the last hour; I\u2019m aware that most, in fact all of the amendments have been spoken to by those proposing the amendments. Also conscious that we are, sort of, even when we are speaking to amendments, while we allow some context, it can\u2019t turn into a general debate speech. So it will now be getting to the stage where we will be looking for fairly specific ideas and questions on this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u00221acfae3b8a4547819ec57cb4030cca31\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221acfae3b8a4547819ec57cb4030cca31\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Minister Bishop, congratulations on your role. First of all, I\u2019d like to add to the comments of my friend Steve Abel, who talked about tree protection, and I\u2019d like to ask\u2014I saw a little glimmer of hope there that you had some sympathy with this issue\u2014is there an amendment we could put up on tree protection that might bridge the gap here? Because this is an issue that\u2019s really significant out there at the moment, and every time we delay it, trees get cut down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EMy other request is that you tell us what kind of economic analysis has been done of the delay itself, because my understanding is there was an analysis done by the Ministry for the Environment which looked at this whole scheme which we are repealing in Part 2\u2014all of the Acts\u2014and it looked at the cost and the benefit of the new regime versus the old one. My understanding is that we were looking at, over 30 years, the system was expected to deliver $2.58 and $4.90 in benefits for every dollar spent\u2014between those numbers\u2014and that it was a 19 percent reduction in costs associated with it, or $150 million a year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ESo we are, effectively, as I understand it\u2014and I\u2019d like to know if you agree\u2014losing $150 million a year as we delay this process, even if the scheme that you develop is in some ways better. So I\u2019d like to know, has that analysis been done? I appreciate that you have carved out one part of it, which is your fast-tracking process, and I wondered what has been attributed in terms of value to that part of it, because I do know that the Government has committed to cost-benefit analysis in this area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI also wondered what role the Minister for Regulation will have in the reshaping of this, given that you are getting rid of this whole scheme of Acts that\u2019s been very laboriously considered by submitters. I was listening to you yesterday, in the answers to one of the questions, talk about how submitters had made certain criticisms and that you had taken them on board in your decision. But one of the things that I noted was that those submitters had been listened to and the eventual shape after the select committee process had actually reflected a lot of the criticism. So this had been quite a\u2014yeah, I\u2019d be very keen\u2014I can see you nodding your head. I\u2019d be very keen to know how you respond to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EDo you think that there was something that wasn\u2019t listened to in that submission process that was of particular concern to you that means that you are now repealing what is a scheme that would save the country over $150 million per year, on the estimates of the Ministry for the Environment, and have you looked at that issue? Because it does seem that, even on your own account, Minister, you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater here, and that we are going to, in a time of cost of living crisis, cost people a lot of real hard money. I\u2019m concerned that the kind of cost that we\u2019re talking about is adding particularly to the cost of housing in an area like Mount Albert, and that we have schemes under way in that area that will be subject to this change, and that actually might be complicated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EMy last question to you is the value of certainty, because I\u2019ve been concerned by the signals that we\u2019ve been sending out there that every time a Government changes, everything gets chucked out and replaced by things very quickly, and that that is actually destabilising people\u2019s capacity to invest in some things that we need long term: infrastructure and particularly housing, which I know we\u2019re concerned about. So I wondered if you could give me a comment on your weighing up of the issue of really undermining the certainty we need to get for investors in areas like housing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EFinally, Minister, I have recently been talking to somebody who\u2019s a developer, who develops around\u2014[Time expired]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d86e18924a24a049711c9d53e631084\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Catherine Wedd. Did I get the wrong\u2014Katie Nimon, sorry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a7f2e4d1d5a4ae38c57e9097693f16e\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Am I allowed to say something?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d30789ff9d9401f8b6ed12ba6b6c842\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, sorry. The honourable Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00221fedb6e04d8b4673a28955f4b4bf9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221fedb6e04d8b4673a28955f4b4bf9b3c\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform):\u003C/span\u003E Can I answer the member\u2019s question. Sorry to colleagues across the Chamber, I just thought I\u2019d deal with Helen White\u2019s questions. It\u2019s meant to be a back and forth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo, lots to that. Let me deal with them with some conciseness. Firstly, to answer the question honestly, no, there\u2019s not an amendment you could put up around urban trees that we would consider. As I\u2019ve said to your friend Steve Abel, the Government\u2019s interested in that issue. We\u2019ll have a look at it in due course. Happy to have conversations around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIn relation to the economic analysis, we don\u2019t accept the economic cost-benefit analysis that was done by the previous Government. We do not accept the idea that it would save money. In fact, I think the opposite is the case, to be honest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIn relation to the third question around the role of the Minister for Regulation, well, he\u2019s a member of the Cabinet\u2014a very senior one. He will play a role in that, and the future role as to how the Minister for Regulation may interface with the new Resource Management Act (RMA) reform process that I\u2019ll be leading as Minister Responsible for RMA Reform is yet to be determined. No doubt the member will find out in due course.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIn relation to the other comments she made, I think her comment about throwing the baby out with the bath water is, essentially, emblematic of a recurrent theme from members opposite, which is that because a lot of time and money was spent on this, we should just charge on ahead, and it\u2019s the classic sunk cost fallacy. I accept a lot of time and money\u2019s been spent on it. That\u2019s regrettable. But if something is going to lead to worse outcomes for both the environment and the construction of infrastructure and agriculture\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022232d6d03720d42c78a6f43e8d971b38a\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Which it won\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2342a6a23894a20baea8fc318933986\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, well, I know you say that, but we have a different view. This is the debate, right? So, you know, welcome to Parliament. If something is not going to lead to the outcomes you want, then you\u2019ve got to throw it out, and, by definition, repealing it is a progressive and sensible way forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIn relation to the member\u2019s final point about certainty, yep, there\u2019s a value in certainty, and her colleague the Hon Rachel Brooking has written to me around trying to get some sort of bipartisanship when it comes to planning. I mean, I don\u2019t want to get too political about it, because this is a committee stage debate and we\u2019ll go through part by part, but the National, now Government, has been up for RMA reform for a long time. We could never assemble a parliamentary majority in the period between 2008 and 2017, largely because every attempt to assemble a majority was rebuffed by the Labour Opposition at the time, who said that every change proposed to the RMA, including around making renewable energy more available and things like that\u2014the Labour Opposition at the time, and I accept the member who asked the question wasn\u2019t around at the time\u2014every attempt was met with cries of \u201CYou guys just want to destroy the environment, you\u2019re environmental vandals, blah, blah, blah.\u201D No doubt there\u2019ll be a lot more of that over the next few years. So that\u2019s the history.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThen, when the Government changed in 2017, the outgoing last Labour Government parked the issue up for a few years while the Randerson report was under way. Judith Collins\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2afa1c72f7e4bd1bf45d2135d0fdcf4\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that\u2019s not called parking up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f1b6af507b24ae0b17fac53b9dd62b1\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, OK. Judith Collins wrote to David Parker and offered the National Party\u2019s support for a bipartisan reform effort. David Parker never even wrote back to her. I\u2019ll write back to Rachel Brooking, but David Parker didn\u2019t even bother.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo, yep, I mean, we can go back and forth about this. Is there a value in certainty? Yes, there is. But I\u2019ll tell you what there is a greater value in, and that\u2019s not doing dumb law, and that\u2019s what this is, because it would make it harder to get things done and harder to protect the environment, and it does not make things simpler. Members keep saying, \u201COh, it\u2019s a simplification.\u201D The Acts that we are repealing are just as long as the RMA that preceded it\u2014900 pages\u2014and in particular, in relation to uncertainty, it introduces entirely new legal concepts that everyone will have to grapple with over the next decade. That reduces the value of certainty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe RMA has many critics. I am one of them. But at least with the RMA there is well-established case law and jurisprudence around how section 6 and 7 interact, around the Treaty clause in the Act, around what the purpose of the Act is. So at least there is a value in the case law, and we\u2019ve had 30 years of jurisprudence under it. That exists. That is not something to be easily done away with to go to an amorphous and ambiguous new legal regime, which, people to the select committee made clear when they turned up, will lead to endless litigation and cost that gets passed on to infrastructure consumers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022 data-id=\u00229e1c3a66a36842cd82a2535058502d62\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229e1c3a66a36842cd82a2535058502d62\u0022\u003EKATIE NIMON (National\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022366fe90f47174c54a3722d5dfcef1e10\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022366fe90f47174c54a3722d5dfcef1e10\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. I\u2019ve been reflecting on the answers that the Minister responsible for RMA Reform has been giving to the varied and wide-ranging questions that my colleagues have been putting forward, and I\u2019m not sure it is satisfactory for the Minister to respond by simply saying, \u201Cthe intent of the bill\u201D. We know the intent of the bill. It is quite clear; it is in the title. But there have been some considered contributions from my colleagues here wanting to know specific things that have not been answered. It certainly doesn\u2019t wash when parts are being kept, and if some parts are being kept, then surely the Government should be open to proposals to keep other parts, especially if it is going to improve the Resource Management Act 1991, which we no doubt will eventually get to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll give the Chamber an example. This bill proposes, under the Local Government Official Information and Meetings Amendment Act 2023, in section 4, providing a new definition of \u201Cnatural hazard\u201D, going from the definition that is provided in the Natural and Built Environment Act 2023, to the Resource Management Act 1991.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ENow, we get what is intended to happen here. We understand that the Government wants to go back to the Resource Management Act 1991. I get it. Everyone gets that. There\u2019s no need to provide that rationale as an answer to a question. But, when we consider that the definition of a \u201Cnatural hazard\u201D in the Resource Management Act 1991 is: \u201Cany atmospheric or earth or water related occurrence\u201D\u2014and then it gives examples\u2014\u201Cthe action of which adversely affects or may adversely affect human life\u201D, the definition of \u201Cnatural hazard\u201D in the Natural and Built Environment Act 2023 specifically includes the effects of climate change on any of those occurrences. That is crucially important to the understanding of a natural hazard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ENow local government, which is the perspective that I am speaking from now\u2014one of the major issues that they are facing is how to deal with natural hazards. If we are moving back from this to the Resource Management Act 1991, with the clear definition of \u201Cnatural hazard\u201D that doesn\u2019t include climate change, local government will be working within criteria that is no longer relevant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EPresumably, that is the definition that was provided in 1991. Things have changed. We only need to look back in the last 12 months to see the impact of natural hazards that has happened in the local government sphere. We think back to the Nelson and Marlborough floods, and what those councils have had to deal with in terms of the re-build there. We think back to the Auckland floods and Cyclone Gabrielle. It is clear in anyone\u2019s mind that climate change was a massive driving factor for those unprecedented events. If we are then going to bring in a planning regime that doesn\u2019t take into account climate change in the definition of \u201Cnatural hazards\u201D, I believe that could hamstring local governments and their ability to build back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThis is a genuine point, one that I make in good faith, and I just simply do not understand why the Government wouldn\u2019t consider maintaining the exact same definition of a \u201Cnatural hazard\u201D as is outlined in the Natural and Build Environment Act 2023. They can still achieve what they want to achieve, they can still get back to the Resource Management Act 1991, but we can have a definition of \u201Cnatural hazard\u201D that is actually up to date and relevant for 2023. The reason I propose this is, further on down, the Government is proposing to include a whole new section in section A.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIt is quite clear that they are open to leaving some things as they currently sit or improving them compared to what they were. I think the committee deserves an answer as to why the Government is proposing to go back to a decades-old definition of \u201Cnatural hazard\u201D instead of one that is fit for purpose in the context of today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u0022bdc52a8e7a294857aa564e7fc85f0118\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bdc52a8e7a294857aa564e7fc85f0118\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u00228ed670572efd42cc9f4094361824e06e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ed670572efd42cc9f4094361824e06e\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Green\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E E te M\u0101ngai, t\u0113n\u0101 koe, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. Mr Chair, thank you very much for the call. I just wanted to reflect on some of those points, as made by the Hon Kieran McAnulty, particularly about climate adaptation, but also about climate mitigation, because it is the Green\u2019s very strong view\u2014and, in fact, the science and the evidence bears out\u2014that good climate adaptation is also climate mitigation. This k\u014Drero is happening not in isolation, nor in a vacuum, but in the context of our largest city in this country being hit by a climate-change charged weather event at the beginning of this year, in the form of the Auckland Anniversary flooding. As a result of that, we have seen Auckland Council start to move itself and shape its policies and regulations in such a way to provide for greater green infrastructure and that climate adaptation point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThe Minister responsible for RMA Reform will be amply aware, given that he is aware of the complexity in this area, of the fact that Auckland\u2019s future development strategy, as recently signed off by Auckland Council, has substantive consideration for green infrastructure, particularly the utilisation of public spaces such as berms. There could have been a great synthesis and opportunity for cohesiveness across local and central government policy were we to see the Minister utilising the opportunity to direct, through the national policy statement\u2014which the natural and built environment legislation and spatial planning legislation enabled\u2014for greater utilisation of green infrastructure, in turn creating that environment of certainty for local government to move ahead with its plans. Yet what we\u2019re seeing right now, and what I\u2019m hearing from the Minister, is that we\u2019re in a bit of a holding pattern of wait and see. We\u2019re not going to have all of our Christmases come at once. We don\u2019t really know what\u2019s going to happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve also heard the Minister say that it\u2019s really important for the sake of the investment environment for there to be certainty for developers and otherwise. Yet what we\u2019re seeing\u2014and I know that he didn\u2019t like this statement\u2014is the throwing out of the baby with the bath water, and no indication of where it is that we\u2019re going to go next.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo my question to the Minister is: in lieu of issuing that national policy statement and direction\u2014particularly pertinent to those of us in T\u0101maki-makau-rau, but also those on the East Coast, on the West Coast, those in Northland as well, actually, at the top of the South Island too, who have all been hammered by climate-change charged weather events over the past several months, over the past several years\u2014what is he going to put in its place so that there is that certainty for local government to undertake the requisite planning not only to do density well but also to take inherent account of the inherent valuable nature of our natural environment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThis is something, particularly on the point of tree protection, that I think is really important to continue underlining here. In my first term in Parliament, two terms ago, in the 52nd Parliament, I sat on the Environment Committee when we were going through a process of another Resource Management Act amendment. I was sitting with members, obviously, of the Labour Party, of New Zealand First, and the National Party, and I sought to put up an amendment, through that select committee process, to reinstate urban tree protection, which the Minister will know was actually first removed by the former National Government and only recently reinstated, in watered-down form, by the outgoing Labour-led Government of the last term. To that effect, it ended up being voted down on the basis that we apparently had to deal with that complexity. I then had a whole lot of engagement with our then-mayor, at the time, Phil Goff. I actually, for the sake of debate and discussion here, need to make the point that I will later seek leave of the committee to table that correspondence, between former Minister Parker and Mayor Goff and myself, about the fact that Auckland Council, as one of our largest councils, as the super-city, simply does not have the resources\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b390398e296442ca684db882dfaa929\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: The best council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228cd513cd6c744431a00f3976606f8f42\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK\u003C/span\u003E: The best council, the best city in this country, does not have the resources to be able to work through the process of notable trees. Again, we\u2019re seeing this lack of cohesion between local and central government policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EJust to kind of summarise all of those points, we are engaging in this debate not in a vacuum but in the context of a climate-changed world, in the context of climate-change charged weather events which have devastated our communities, both rural and urban, over the past several months and years. One of the best tools that we have to mitigate against that climate-change charged ravaging is the utilisation of trees, which are both climate adaptation in the form of green infrastructure but also climate mitigation too, in terms of their capacity to sequester carbon. My question to the Minister is whether he will, and what he will be doing to, provide that certain environment for local government but also for the sake of investment, in lieu of pursuing the national planning framework as would have been enabled under the natural and built environment legislation and that national planning legislation as well?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf06234950da46c287f53859667f1ee9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf06234950da46c287f53859667f1ee9\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022a6c2e3fdc64540d6bf6d35a5bdd98064\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a6c2e3fdc64540d6bf6d35a5bdd98064\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll just indicate that that last speech is the sort of general points being made that have been made a lot, and that do lead to a closure, so I\u2019ll just be warning those now\u2014very, very specific. Hon Megan Woods.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u002246c002a237744781ad3af8223d5b8894\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002246c002a237744781ad3af8223d5b8894\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chairman. This is my first chance to make a contribution on Part 2 of this bill, and I do have some very specific questions. They do pertain to clause 5(1) of Part 2, the repeal of the Natural and Built Environment Act 2023. Of course, that takes with it section 58 of the Natural and Built Environment Act. Section 58 of that Act provides some enabling provisions in some very important areas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThere are a number of areas that I wish to ask the Minister about, but specifically my question to the Minister responsible for RMA Reform is around what will be done to ensure that we can continue to see momentum with the repeal of section 58(b), which is the enabling provision for papak\u0101inga on M\u0101ori land. Of course, with the Resource Management Act that will be coming in to replace it, with the repeal of section 58(b) in respect of papak\u0101inga land, it was possible to build papak\u0101inga housing, but I think it\u2019s fair to say it was incredibly difficult to build papak\u0101inga housing. The intent with the national planning framework legislation was actually to have an enabling environment so we could see more of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EOur Government had an incredibly aggressive programme around the provision of papak\u0101inga housing, and obviously that can take many forms. In those forms, we managed to build around 500 houses on papak\u0101inga land when we were in Government, with another 200 in the pipeline, but this is not nearly enough and why it was that this enabling provision was put into the Natural and Build Environment Act. With that going and reverting back to the provision, which we do not consider is anywhere near permissive enough when it comes to papak\u0101inga housing, what advice has the Minister received on this, if any? What are the Minister\u2019s plans to ensure we can have a more permissive environment around papak\u0101inga housing? I do have some more specific questions, but I\u2019ll give the Minister an opportunity to answer that one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00227e43a8a4baf1434f95ab4e7e989d2933\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e43a8a4baf1434f95ab4e7e989d2933\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform):\u003C/span\u003E In relation to the member\u2019s question, I haven\u2019t received any specific advice about papak\u0101inga housing. I agree with the member that it\u2019s a very important part of the housing mix as we go forward\u2014a very important part of solving our housing crisis. Papak\u0101inga housing in my own electorate of Hutt South has been very successful. I think there is a real role for Government, and my good colleague the Hon Tama Potaka, as Associate Minister of Housing (Social Housing) with responsibility for M\u0101ori housing, will be doing some work on that. There\u2019s a wider issue around Te Ture Whenua Maori Act and land law reform, which Parliament\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022559dd290aec847738de6b9be036e362b\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Accept my amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b009d9d929894a65b31736004f86d032\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014well, not\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235c09a24f8244e5097b3b83c77db6b42\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a01a5a15c0e4d23a42569bf75ccbd12\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014has struggled with for many years, including the last Government and the Government before that, and maybe in the next three to six years we\u2019ll make some progress on it. I won\u2019t hold my breath, but let\u2019s hope we can get some progress on it, because we do need iwi in particular to be able to make better use of land, and also various M\u0101ori entities out there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m very interested in the role that papak\u0101inga housing can play in relation to solving our housing crisis. I haven\u2019t received any specific advice in relation to this; however, there\u2019s a fast-track bill coming\u2014the Government\u2019s own fast-track piece of legislation\u2014in the new year. I\u2019m happy to consider papak\u0101inga housing as part of that fast-track, but I haven\u2019t received any specific advice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u002234367f55f2d9407f86118bef01874e54\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002234367f55f2d9407f86118bef01874e54\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chairman. That gives me great heart, and thank you to the Minister responsible for RMA Reform for answering that question. I have two specific questions, both relating to section 58 of the Natural and Built Environment Act. One is: will the Minister countenance an amendment to this bill to enable a more enabling and permissive regime around papak\u0101inga housing than the old Resource Management Act that we\u2019re bringing back would allow? And I\u2019m sure I\u2019ll have colleagues that would like to speak, if there are any proposed amendments. I know that Arena Williams will certainly be keen to speak to a specific amendment in that, so I\u2019d be keen to hear from the Minister if that is an amendment that he would countenance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EMy second question is also in relation to section 58, and that is around the removing of the enabling renewable electricity generation and transmission provisions in the Natural and Built Environment Bill\u2014it pertains particularly to water usage\u2014and whether the Minister has given any thought to what it will be replaced with or whether he has received any specific advice on whether it will be around both consumptive and non-consumptive uses of water in relation to electricity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1f9dccfdb644691a9f3ec6fd31aae50\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1f9dccfdb644691a9f3ec6fd31aae50\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I said earlier in the House that I had 11 amendments in my name to this part. I have spoken to six of them, so I will take you through, quickly, those other amendments. There\u2019s also an opportunity here, I think, for some bipartisan work on the amendment\u2014which I have written now and will table shortly\u2014which amends Part 1 of Schedule 2, and that is specifically around papak\u0101inga housing. For the benefit of the Chamber, I will read it out: it would amend Part 1 of Schedule 2 to delete all amendments to Te Ture Whenua Maori Act 1993, the Urban Development Act 2020, and any other Acts which would reverse those changes made to the enablement of papak\u0101inga housing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s particular reference in those two Acts that would be amended by the Minister\u2019s amendment that would set back the development of papak\u0101inga housing. Given that the Minister responsible for RMA Reform has an interest in the enablement of papak\u0101inga housing that is not only on community-held M\u0101ori land but also on other forms of freehold land which are owned by other organisations\u2014like marae, like urban authorities\u2014this would allow those practical changes which the Government of the last term introduced to enable papak\u0101inga housing to continue. I do want the Minister to tell the Chamber whether he will consider my amendment, which I will table shortly. Given that he hasn\u2019t had time to consider it now, I will run off some copies in a minute so he can consider it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESpeaking to the other amendments in my name, I am proposing a number of deletions from Part 1 to Schedule 2, and they are amendments 5 through 11. They are deleting the amendments to the Infrastructure Funding and Financing Act 2020, the Environmental Protection Authority Act 2011, the Crown Minerals Act 1991, the Conservation Act 1987, the Climate Change Response Act 2002, and the Water Services Act 2021. I have spoken already to the deletions of the Urban Development Act, so I won\u2019t use the Chamber\u2019s time to discuss those, but these are all Acts that make amendments that I have already explained to the Chamber are not consequential and do not belong in Part 2 that amends this Schedule.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThese are not consequential, because the amendments to these Acts all include things that are moving to a system where there is some change for the way that decision makers within Government departments or decision makers within our court system would have to make a decision based on a new\u2014well, an old\u2014hierarchy of values. If the Minister\u2019s answer that he gave me in relation to the Urban Development Act stands in this Chamber\u2014that \u201COh, well, the difference is only three months.\u201D\u2014then it would make sense that it would be fine to pass, through committee stages and through urgency in Parliament, any kind of amendment that went back to a system which was time-limited. That cannot be the answer. We need answers about how the decision-making framework that is now in our law will be different in the future, and that is why I have proposed to amend just six of the Acts that are amended by this amendment here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI haven\u2019t chosen everything, I\u2019ve just chosen those things which make amendments which are more than consequential, and I\u2019d like the Minister to tell me how he proposes to deal with that and my new amendment, which I will run off now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00229fd5ad01f9d24de2b89f0f271f7902a1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229fd5ad01f9d24de2b89f0f271f7902a1\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s hard for me to comment on an amendment I haven\u2019t seen, so\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218025d5032d34463905bc61dc2ce1b9e\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I\u2019ll go and do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cfe0e5c3d304d7e88edd1c06a6115ec\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: OK, well, that\u2019s good\u2014very good. So I\u2019m happy to have a look at it. In relation to papak\u0101inga housing, just further to the Hon Megan Woods\u2019 point\u2014she was talking about clause 58; I think that\u2019s the wrong section.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c780a59eb4ef4bd69ec16a2a3d9addb5\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: The enabling provisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022641e9407b58a4708a34aaed06a4fd3e5\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, well, I\u2019m advised that section 129 is the relevant one in relation to the national planning framework which would have enabled papak\u0101inga housing\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b01a238f2734fdcbd7956b15e2ee54a\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. It\u2019s one, but so is 58.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294098219b76b42ff86a5fa73c5687aa0\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m advised that there is no 58B in the Natural and Built Environment Act 2023 (NBEA). The correct section is 129. Anyway, regardless, I think we\u2019re both talking about the same thing. The national planning framework (NPF) would have sent the filter through the system to make papak\u0101inga more enabling. I\u2019m also advised that the initial national planning framework which was being advanced under the previous Government didn\u2019t actually include the papak\u0101inga housing changes to it. That was going to be in phase 2, so I think it\u2019s fair to say we were a wee way off under the NBEA track from enabling more papak\u0101inga anyway. That was going to be part of the phase 2 NPF reforms; it wasn\u2019t actually in the initial draft that\u2019s been publicly released, or at least available. I\u2019d just repeat what I said before, which is that I\u2019m very supportive of papak\u0101inga. I think there\u2019s more we need to do there, so I\u2019m interested as to ways we can advance that\u2014just to repeat that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIn relation to Arena Williams\u2019 amendment, as I think I\u2019ve said now for the 12th or 13th time, we are just going back to what the law was. Ms Williams says, \u201CWell, it\u2019s very important when Parliament does that, we need to know what the law will be.\u201D Well, we do: the law will be what it was. It\u2019s as simple as that. Parliament recently passed this. There was a long and convoluted debate about it. I spent a lot of time in this House and a lot of time in the select committee\u2014we made it really clear relatively early on from the get-go that National in Opposition did not support the NBEA. ACT said the same thing, New Zealand First\u2014coalition partner\u2014said the same thing from outside the Parliament, and we are now proceeding to implement our policies and our promises. It\u2019s really as simple as that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u002260313e9df4054e17add0dbedf3505925\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002260313e9df4054e17add0dbedf3505925\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Now, I would like to go back to some questions that weren\u2019t answered, and I\u2019ll just reflect on those very quickly. That is, what the Minister responsible for RMA Reform thinks that the regional council\u2019s role would be under the Natural and Built Environment Act. Also, whether or not there was any consideration of keeping bits of the Natural and Built Environment Act that are clearly much more efficient than the Resource Management Act (RMA). So that\u2019s regarding section 32 of the RMA and the consent categories were what I referred to earlier.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI\u2019m interested also\u2014we\u2019ve had some discussion about good urban density and phrases like \u201Csponge city\u201D may have come up, and, of course, one of the changes in the Natural and Built Environment Act that came quite late in the process was in response to a lot of the hazard events that occurred at the start of the year, and this real focus on green infrastructure. Now my colleague the Hon Dr Megan Woods has been referring to section 58 of the Natural and Built Environment Act\u2014apologies if that is the wrong section, we\u2019re working off my copy of the bill as it was reported back from the select committee stage. But clearly the Minister realises that we\u2019re talking about the \u201CNational planning framework must provide direction on certain matters\u201D. This is a catch-all section. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EAnother question that goes to the efficiencies that could be gained by doing some of the things in the Natural and Built Environment Act\u2014I would say all of the things, but being specific here\u2014is that a lot of national policy directions at the moment can be inconsistent with each other. So on the one hand, you might have the National Environmental Standards for Plantation Forestry saying, basically, grow pine trees wherever you like, but then you will have other national policy directions\u2014there\u2019s the Essential Freshwater package which is saying no, we need to be really careful about what is going into our waterways. So having one national planning framework that puts all of those different national instruments together and makes sure that they are not inconsistent goes a long way in terms of efficiency. So I asked the Minister if he had considered that; had the Minister also said that he is going to keep the Spatial Planning Board, and given that there will be no Spatial Planning Act or no Natural and Built Environment Act, I wonder what that Spatial Planning Board will be doing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EAlso, we have the Mana Whakahono \u0101 Rohe. They are much more strengthened in the Natural and Built Environment Act than they are in the Resource Management Act, and if there was any consideration to keeping those strengthened provisions, they could have stood alone as well. That\u2019s one series of questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe565fad83af44dba41bcf8f9e731f0e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe565fad83af44dba41bcf8f9e731f0e\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll just answer those questions briefly. I mean, we\u2019ve been through this. Yes, the Government went through a process about what changes made through the Natural and Built Environment Act they wish to keep as part of this. Time pressures meant we couldn\u2019t go through all of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cd4536c14284f6fb9e6ccaca6c35c1c\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Self-inflicted time pressures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022858d5018260448df85dfe1bfb16832a3\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, but\u2014yeah, sure. But also, unless we just wait another year, everyone subject to this 900-page monster\u2014councils and all the rest of it have to go through that, start a 10-year transition\u2014everyone knows the law is going to be repealed anyway. It introduces even more uncertainty, so we took the view\u2014and I think it\u2019s a legitimate and reasonable view\u2014better to get it off the statute books as quickly as possible so that people know where they stand. So that\u2019s what we\u2019re doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EAs I\u2019ve said\u2014again, for the third or fourth time\u2014we are going to go through a process in the new year about some of the more sensible technical changes that were advanced through the Natural and Built Environment Act. Ms Williams has made a spirited case for allowing a select committee to do that through legislative amendment to this legislative amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e66afe7ff6a143c192903af1a3ce649d\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Give me one amendment, come on!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022205424eab6e64216acb0ceae9081a935\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll have a look at that. I\u2019m more minded to just instruct a select committee chaired by my good colleague David MacLeod\u2014potentially the Environment Committee, a very hard-working committee\u2014but we can have a look at the tabled amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EOn the Spatial Planning Board, the Spatial Planning Board is staying. In relation to what it will do, well, we\u2019ll be working our way through that but as the member knows, as a former Minister, getting departments to work together is going to be a good thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022 data-id=\u002287ab936016094660913ba6221ea9a61a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002287ab936016094660913ba6221ea9a61a\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022d3172a77bada4fd3ac413b60e1a1d6cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d3172a77bada4fd3ac413b60e1a1d6cb\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: There has been very little new material in the last several presentations, so I will give the call to Mr McAnulty but it will be new material.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00229333a958385844ff838fa1aad45a77aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229333a958385844ff838fa1aad45a77aa\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. The issue with including new material here is that I still haven\u2019t got an answer to the previous question I asked, a genuine question, about the definition of a natural hazard. I would like an answer to that because I\u2019m considering putting forward an amendment for the consideration of the Minister responsible for RMA Reform so that we could do that. If he could give an indication as to whether he\u2019d be willing to consider the current definition of \u201Cnatural hazard\u201D under the Natural and Built Environment Act and simply state, in this bill, that that is the definition that local councils will continue to be able to refer to in their operations under the new planning model.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not about opposing what\u2019s happening here: we know what the Government wants to do; we know they want to move back to the Resource Management Act 1991. But a genuine plea: let\u2019s at least have an up-to-date definition of \u201Cnatural hazard\u201D that considers, takes into account, not only climate change but also contaminated land\u2014a point that I wasn\u2019t able to make last time\u2014as a result of climate change and natural disasters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIt is important that the definition that local government operates with, with specific reference to natural hazard, is up to date. Times have changed. We now know that climate change and natural hazards are linked, without question. The definition should reflect that. I\u2019m in the process of drafting an amendment to that\u2014at least an answer to my question would be good, but an indication from the Minister as to whether he\u2019d be willing to consider that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00220b7ac79d9ff847f79c782823b352aa23\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b7ac79d9ff847f79c782823b352aa23\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform):\u003C/span\u003E Happy to look at it. Sorry, I meant to answer it before, and I take your point. I\u2019m advised that there is, basically\u2014the only thing that has changed is the Natural and Built Environment Act clarified that the activities that are covered had to be caused by climate change. So it\u2019s just literally a clarificatory statement, but all of the activities that were covered are still covered; it\u2019s just by dint of the passage of time, the Resource Management Act 1991\u2014I don\u2019t know, I mean, we\u2019re 30 years on; it\u2019s just a minor clarificatory statement. So I don\u2019t think anything substantive turns on the wording. All of the activities that you\u2019d want to be covered through natural hazards are covered. But I\u2019m happy to look at the wording if the member wants to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022621eb41d2c5b41f7abefc304793c0d83\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll print it now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a9ac15785c34cfcb12f8030bc90250e\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: OK, very good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd6276b3fa5b4e8da6581f55bcee0931\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd6276b3fa5b4e8da6581f55bcee0931\u0022\u003EMILES ANDERSON (National\u2014Waitaki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c875146bcf614ae2bc62b7ef179c9cb2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on the question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022d70102384d6c401c8632cf6f9979ef8a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d70102384d6c401c8632cf6f9979ef8a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment inserting new clause 5A to require an inquiry into parts of the Natural and Built Environment Act 2023 that should be reinstated or given effect be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b4b0aef1b4ba44f0b14b215e4c1bbe66\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf3153fb83414540a377272d2a5a97ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf3153fb83414540a377272d2a5a97ed\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment inserting new clause 5A to require an inquiry into parts of the Spatial Planning Act 2023 should be reinstated or given effect be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229ae8d12d90bd4e94a6ef1f1613c31746\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022dd28440e6b0a435b8131dacd3b4d1e0c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dd28440e6b0a435b8131dacd3b4d1e0c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 third tabled amendment inserting new clause 5A be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224ee5dd62636047bb9736abd3c8d5fd3e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00223a4a3c3692c547cb91405fc2b3c78393\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a4a3c3692c547cb91405fc2b3c78393\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 6 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022bbc522fd009241668bfd20408751d22d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223c1a5665df3f4bd7be8d090934bfab73\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002261cc2f4c7f7548bd9be77db26b940842\u0022\u003ESchedule 1  Transitional, savings, and related provisions \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022c8bf311db3f24b1dbf157ea94e192092\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c8bf311db3f24b1dbf157ea94e192092\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: We come to Schedule 1. The question is that the Hon Rachel Brooking\u2019s tabled amendment inserting new clause 7A in Schedule 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022078f525091984980ae735bfa5bc0e043\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002216eca439eb634f75a2191d5be2660ab6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002216eca439eb634f75a2191d5be2660ab6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Rachel Brooking\u2019s tabled amendment inserting new clause 7B in Schedule 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a3c76be9a0d643ed865386ef4f7afa6c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002277192c4b37bf4b5aa309f217c9da2ac9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002277192c4b37bf4b5aa309f217c9da2ac9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Rachel Brooking\u2019s tabled amendment inserting new clause 7C in Schedule 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ce498450dc6e45909a67a0f452d2fd3b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00223dfd62a1b0a34af8ac3769aa86c954cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223dfd62a1b0a34af8ac3769aa86c954cc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment replacing clause 11 of Schedule 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c2cce4949cda42a7b84497720ebca423\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002252de06ce229f4ac792ee230d7fe2d342\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252de06ce229f4ac792ee230d7fe2d342\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 19 of Schedule 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221afb8bdeef684e40af33f134c0496699\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d6e5bc9e3dbc469d9869fd8fd4ba0ff1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228dfc54e954b14ce5bdbe15786d78aaf5\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00223225f6722f764766913e18849c2f3f64\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223225f6722f764766913e18849c2f3f64\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: We come to Schedule 2. Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendments to Part 1 of Schedule 2 deleting amendments to various Acts are ruled out of order as being inconsistent with a previous decision of the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003ESteve Abel\u2019s amendment to Schedule 2 set out on Amendment Paper 4 is ruled out of order as being outside the scope of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EThe question is that Lan Pham\u2019s tabled amendment to Part 4 of Schedule 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022151bae9a0a7a4a66adb7a1d2c3967c5a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00227890252948e24c93aa26ea0b82af99e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227890252948e24c93aa26ea0b82af99e1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Rachel Brooking\u2019s tabled amendment to Part 4 of Schedule 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b1cd4f2c67604096954e6b50a69aa772\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b9fd57ae6c844390a37bead26837257e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b90a92e7979a4756a3c1ed147cebeb9e\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022354f9d5e52bf4ab99cd92c85ffd0dc35\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022354f9d5e52bf4ab99cd92c85ffd0dc35\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: We come now to the debate on clauses 1 and 2. This is the debate on the title and commencement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022608b96cc7fda40da87132d05a459419e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022608b96cc7fda40da87132d05a459419e\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity to comment on this part, Mr Chair. It has been a lively debate and I want to take this opportunity to thank the Minister for his discursive approach to it\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022664d11d485984da581956c8ca6527071\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Discursive!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fe1171206ed45e49a66486674da044d\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and in answering questions. I love a discursive approach, Chl\u00F6e. I encourage you to take a call, Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EClause 1 has an amendment in my name that has been tabled. I hope the Minister will give it some consideration. The amendment is to change the name of the bill from the Resource Management (Natural and Built Environment and Spatial Planning Repeal and Interim Fast-track Consenting) Bill to the \u201CResource Management Return to the 2022 Position Bill.\u201D This is a serious amendment; it is not a silly name. What I am trying to highlight here, for the record, is that how we name this Act is important, and to give some of indication to the decision makers who rely upon the statutes to make decisions about what resource management regime they\u2019re following, because the difference between the 1991 Resource Management Act and our current position in law is significant. We\u2019ve traversed that well in the committee but what I\u2019m wanting from the Minister is an indication of whether he will accept my amendment to the name or\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0f006f6cab64dd6b2d11c76c3dfc922\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Just read it out again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b03680755b6e421f8f2b23f052b09617\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014I can read it out again for him in a second\u2014whether he will consider this name change or make it clear to the committee in an answer to my question what time period he is seeking for decision makers, under these Acts, to use because it\u2019s certainly not 1991. We\u2019ve had conversations in this committee about what we are returning to here. The law has moved on and it would be useful for the Minister to give us an indication on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThere is a second clause amendment in this part with an amendment in my name. It would amend clause 5 of Schedule 1, coming into force on the day that is 18 months after the rest of this Act, but allow clauses 6 and 7 of Schedule 1 to come into force on a day that is nine months after the rest of the Act. So the change there is that the Minister\u2019s repeal bill would come into effect mostly with that nine-month period; this is allowing the operative part\u2014the clause 5 part\u2014to repeal the whole Act at a later date. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI think what I\u2019m really getting to here and what I\u2019d like the Minister to consider in my amendment is whether there is any reason, given that he has some interest in allowing select committees to inquire into which parts of the three Acts that are being amended by this bill\u2014you know, those parts that it is worth building bipartisan support for and keeping on the statute book and whether there is any reason why there shouldn\u2019t be a time extension of the operative parts of those Acts, to remain in effect while we make that consideration. I\u2019ve heard the Minister say that he wants to return to the old system now, but it would be useful, I think, for the House and the way that we make law in this House to be able to consider what should be kept, in a select committee setting, while those parts remain in force. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo my questions are really about the period of time, and there were some good contributions by my colleague the Hon Rachel Brooking about the difference between the 1991 regime and the 2023 regime that we find ourselves in, and that includes not only the law as it stands on the statute book but also those changes that have been made by the courts since then. There were also some contributions that the Hon Peeni Henare made, particularly about those changes that the courts have made in the way that we would consider the hierarchy of values when we take those into account around things like kaitiakitanga and the role of iwi and hap\u016B in things like consenting decisions. So it would be really useful for the Minister to consider my two amendments. I hope he will give me one amendment. I\u2019ve been trying for three hours now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022056c4401d6424495a829012e5f37b45b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022056c4401d6424495a829012e5f37b45b\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019ve been pondering the member\u2019s suggestion. It has a certain logic to it, but just because the Act is the 1991 Act doesn\u2019t mean that people think the law is as it was in 1991. As the member knows, the Resource Management Act has been amended probably hundreds of times in the last 30 years, which might speak to fundamental design problems in the first place\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf548c0dcdcb472cadf4ead614218714\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right; that\u2019s why we fixed it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022659d5b83ac9945f88b9d3a9ff1959e76\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we\u2019re on a very narrow part of the debate now; you\u2019re not going to get me back on that but good try, and there are many other Acts that have been amended hundreds of times. So I think we\u2019ll stick with the wording as it is, but not a bad idea. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIn relation to the second question, I don\u2019t think we need to alter the commencement provisions to do a process of working out what we want, the additional things we want to keep from the Natural and Built Environment Act. We\u2019ll work through that in due course. I\u2019m attracted to the idea proposed by the member previously about getting a select committee to do a bit of the heavy lifting on that. If the member wants to be\u2014I don\u2019t know, is the member part of the Environment Committee? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbad736c47494345a73826eac96af8e0\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Draft me in; you\u2019re on the Business Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1b3e894ee414ae6af56d955143f431e\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you know, there\u2019s 123 MPs; I don\u2019t know what every committee MPs are on. I\u2019m still getting to know the new members. There\u2019s not so many on the Opposition benches but there\u2019s quite a few on the cross benches from the Greens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228938eec37d9d43e0bfa7b562ce706b8b\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: So no interest; hasn\u2019t got to know his colleagues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271b328db4d854717a087b42bf9b60d4c\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Oh no, there\u2019s 123. I hesitate to make this point but I wonder if you know the name of every MP in the Parliament? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a33759dc1cb48e7976a68fcff35ce2d\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: I do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce6ac1021add4020a830d5a50a273ec7\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, righty-o, OK. It\u2019s big talk for a Wednesday morning. Anyway, so good ideas but I think I\u2019ve answered the questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022533ac523d4da4b89b62bdfa937586431\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022533ac523d4da4b89b62bdfa937586431\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair, and I appreciate the invitation from the Minister to name every member\u2014I can do that. I won\u2019t, because that wouldn\u2019t be relevant\u2014and nice try, that was a good little trap you set for me there, Minister, but I\u2019m not going to fall for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve a genuine question about the commencement here, it\u2019s not going to take long. I do want the Minister to answer it because I think the Chamber deserves to know. As you know, as it says, clauses 5 to 7 in Schedule 1 come into force on the day that is nine months after the rest of the Act. Is nine months enough? That\u2019s what I want to know. Is nine months enough to do all the things that the Minister has said they want to do, which is the justification for having these delays. They\u2019re going to get things in place, they\u2019re going to tidy things up, they\u2019re going to line it up\u2014plus the amendments, get things ready, and they\u2019ve given themselves nine months. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIf he can come back and say, \u201CYes, nine months is enough and this is why\u201D, fair enough; good as gold. But I think it\u2019s worth considering an amendment to this, a genuine one, if the Minister can\u2019t come back and explain why nine months, the reason being that nine months isn\u2019t long when it comes into force after Royal assent\u2014presumably that\u2019s going to be pretty quick, then the public sector is going to be off for six weeks, pretty much, and fair enough too, the way things have been going. It\u2019s certainly going to be on a slowdown. But the point is that nine months seems like an unusual period of time and if we are to consider amending that, an explanation is due to the committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIf we do amend that, it would be nice to have enough time to actually get it in. I note that before the last closure, the Minister said \u201CYes, we will consider your amendment\u201D, and I said \u201CI\u2019ll just have to go and print it\u201D, and he said \u201COK\u201D, then it got closed. So that was an unusual and disappointing outcome, particularly when the Minister and I get on well, we work together constructively\u2014we were about to, didn\u2019t get the opportunity, and we have the opportunity now. So just a quick explanation please: why nine months? And is that long enough?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u00221caae886779741f6b9eb28177626540a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221caae886779741f6b9eb28177626540a\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Chair, and thank you very much. To the nine months, I see that the commencement date is nine months after the rest of this Act comes into force. The question I have for the Minister is pretty simple and I raised a little bit of it earlier. We were talking about report backs and the time that the Minister will take to enable the Ng\u0101 Hap\u016B o Ng\u0101ti Porou Act. You\u2019ll see in the bill that it says here, \u201Cuse the Crown\u2019s best endeavours to promote the enactment of the Bill not later than 18 months after the commencement of this clause.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ESo by my M\u014Dtatau maths, and I got 54 in School C. maths so please just\u2014it\u2019s a pass but bear with me here. The 18 months plus the nine months\u201427 months, leading into another election. My very simple question to the Minister is: does that mean that Ng\u0101 Hap\u016B o Ng\u0101ti Porou are in limbo for 27 months with respect to their piece of legislation? As well as ng\u0101 Mana Whakahono, and if I recall correctly there is three months to report back to those iwi who look towards making an attempt to be recognised as an iwi authority. So just a very simple question on the nine months plus the 18 months: is the Minister suggesting to Ng\u0101 Hap\u016B o Ng\u0101ti Porou that they\u2019ll need to wait 27 months in order to get any progress on their particular legislation? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00222e1ab5084217453daaa6e81097c64aee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e1ab5084217453daaa6e81097c64aee\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m not allowed to refer to a member who\u2019s not here, but he isn\u2019t. Mr McAnulty asked about clause\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5042a73048742e7acde029a16d67190\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s here now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f930e4c24cd44ad484a9cf40521a63c8\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, he\u2019s here. Welcome back. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af54f27f06fe4d4c85eaf22d3a2d2c6c\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re not supposed to say I wasn\u2019t here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8b2a5b1737f42858555e38779a0981d\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: I know, I know, I know. I just said that, but I got away with it. It\u2019s all in the spirit of good faith. In relation to clause 2, subclause (2)\u2014sorry it\u2019s clause 1, actually. Clauses 5 to 7 are there basically to allow the 100-day fast track, so to allow the Government\u2019s own fast-track legislation to be progressed, which is part of our 100-day commitments. The provision is to give comfort to particularly post-settlement governance entities in the unlikely event that it takes longer. I think the member was proposing a longer window. If the member wants to put a reasonable piece of time on the table beyond nine months, we would be prepared to consider that. If it would make everyone feel better about life, I think it would be a reasonable and constructive way forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225976ec3468ac472cb2b60551f35a150e\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Madam Chair. Could I seek the Chair\u2019s assurance that I will have enough time to actually submit this amendment, given that the last time we had an agreement with the Minister that I could submit an amendment, it was then closed and that opportunity was lost.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffff8e16421f4acbadfa5b146a3ff861\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b298359f494a47f8bd4eb3987e78f953\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Not sure you\u2019re supposed to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022538be090c72c4da29d684ef4752f4902\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Hon Chris Bishop, speaking to the point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5cf162e688e4942bd203684d862c0b4\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: From the chair? Are you supposed to? Someone else could\u2014don\u2019t know if you can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022370370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222416826fdb8c4025b3546bfb262a74c4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I believe he can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc137505b9624e4c88061e93fecc28a0\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s fine\u2014yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce09e5aa4cf549f7a3a8c92699ce62eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce09e5aa4cf549f7a3a8c92699ce62eb\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you for the opportunity. I have five questions for the Minister about the Royal assent. The first question is about the nature of Royal assent. For the committee\u2019s benefit, Royal assent is granted by usually the Governor-General, and so my questions are around the legal risks which this legislation creates at every point of decision making and in exercise of the Crown\u2019s powers, and that includes the point about Royal assent. This is separate from the point about the commencement date and particularly about the date of Royal assent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo my first question to the Minister is: what legal risk should the people giving Royal assent consider when making the decision to grant this bill Royal assent? And the second question: what rights are extinguished upon Royal assent? This is in the context of this bill having a relatively unusual provision, which is to exclude compensation for the effect of the repeals. That is a big part of the Act, which I was not able to traverse with the Minister in Part 1 of this debate, but it is still relevant to the Royal assent given that it creates a legal risk that that body takes on when giving Royal assent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMy third question about that, which I\u2019ll ask now, as the Minister is considering his thoughts: has the Government ever extinguished legal rights of this nature, in urgency, without an impact assessment, as a consequential amendment? The reason why the committee was not able to traverse this point about the extinguishment of legal rights and the unusual provision that excludes any remedy because of these repeals is because it was part of a schedule and we were unable to get to that part in the committee of the whole House. It was also not included in the impact assessment for reasons we have already traversed. But it is something that is wholly new to this committee\u2019s discussion of this bill. So I\u2019d like an answer from the Minister, and then I have two more questions on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022df1b3fc5fdbd4f5e99abcd5e980265e8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df1b3fc5fdbd4f5e99abcd5e980265e8\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m trying my best to understand what the member is saying, but I\u2019m struggling a touch. I\u2019d like her to take another call to maybe\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b01d31c637b6498c9a92b7336241b5c8\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f2b91d9bb9643c0b9770efcdfcd14cc\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, just hang on a minute. I\u2019ll make a couple of remarks. In answer to the question around whether the Government has ever extinguished legal rights in this way through a consequential amendment, the short answer is I don\u2019t know. But the more broad point is that we\u2019re not extinguishing legal rights. The bill is at some pains to preserve existing legal rights that people have. It upholds Treaty settlements as well. It\u2019s a core commitment of the Government, on behalf of the Crown, which is very important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EWe had an extensive back and forth last night about Mana Whakahono \u0101 Rohe agreements, and also we had some engagement this morning with former Minister Henare about Takutai Moana and customary rights and customary title. It would be a brave Parliament and Government that decided to unpick that hard-fought-for piece of legislation, which, of course, codified in some respects common law rights around customary title, which go back, as the member knows from her days at law school, many, many, many decades.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EI\u2019m time-filling somewhat while we wait for Mr McAnulty to scurry around, around the amendments, but I didn\u2019t quite get the first question from the member in the last call. So maybe she can come back on that one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00220e682962c82e446bb31df9073ac1b529\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e682962c82e446bb31df9073ac1b529\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. The first question was about the context of this\u2014if the Minister could tell the committee what legal risk those people giving Royal assent to this amendment bill should be considering when they are making that decision. It\u2019s a question, really, about what part they play in our constitutional arrangements when exercising Government power to enact legislation which would potentially extinguish the rights of parties to proceedings which are on foot or might be entered into.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI\u2019m really glad that the Minister has drawn the committee\u2019s attention to clause 11 of Schedule 1, which is the Mana Whakahono \u0101 Rohe agreements. The reason I\u2019m talking about that is that it is an example I presented the committee with last night where rights are extinguished. So there exists now an agreement between Poutini Ng\u0101i Tahu, who have applied as a hap\u016B for a Mana Whakahono \u0101 Rohe agreement with those councils that are active within their region, which is the West Coast. They are different from those iwi authority agreements which exist under the old regime. Clause 11 does try to fit the Mana Whakahono \u0101 Rohe agreement back into the old system, but where there are new rights which exist\u2014those examples where hap\u016B or, in this case, a r\u016Bnaka that is subordinate to an iwi organisation has entered into a regional agreement with their regional council\u2014there are different rights which exist under those agreements than there are under the old system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe Minister told the committee last night that clause 11 is worded in such a way as to preserve those existing arrangements and that there are no new arrangements. But, actually, we should have amended that clause last night, because that\u2019s not what clause 11 says. So I want the Minister to tell us how, in Part 1, when those people giving Royal assent to this bill, they should consider examples like Poutini Ng\u0101i Tahu, who have rights under the new regime that will be extinguished moving back to the old regime, given that they have a role in preserving those rights or at least helping this Parliament to be very, very clear when it is extinguishing the right of parties to proceedings now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMy fourth and fifth questions are: who will be giving Royal assent, given that there are special rules to consider when the Governor-General is overseas? We\u2019re in a period of summer holidays because the Government is sitting in urgency, and we are using the House\u2019s time in this way. There are special rules around who may give Royal assent and if it\u2019s not the Governor-General, it will be a senior officer of the court. That puts a senior officer of the court\u2014say a Supreme Court Justice\u2014in a really difficult position when they\u2019re extinguishing the rights of parties in this way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe last question is: does the Minister know about those arrangements? When will that Royal assent be given? What are his intentions around this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00227f1857f996724811b0143407223b91e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f1857f996724811b0143407223b91e5\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform):\u003C/span\u003E Well, Madam Chair, we\u2019re into the realm of legal fantasy now. Maybe it was just a good filibuster attempt, but not a great one. The Royal assent is the Royal assent process. The member knows that Parliament passes a piece of legislation. It makes its way to Her Excellency the Governor-General, who signs it. And if the Governor-General refused to sign something by Parliament, I suspect we would have bigger issues to deal with as a country. But so far in the long constitutional history of New Zealand that hasn\u2019t happened\u2014at least while we\u2019ve had responsible government. So that is what will happen, and it doesn\u2019t place the Supreme Court Justice or the administrator of the Government, or the Chief Justice acting as the Governor-General, in a position. The Parliament passes a law and the Governor-General signs it. That\u2019s the law, and it\u2019s pretty simple.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIn relation to her more substantive point about the extinguishment, I\u2019m advised that there are no parties that have proceedings under the relevant bits of the legislation she\u2019s talking about. There\u2019s no extinguishment of legal rights, because there are no\u2014she\u2019s talked about parties to proceedings having their rights extinguished. There are no parties to proceedings. No applications have been made. If one was to be made, clause 11 is pretty clear: it just goes back to the Resource Management Act 1991 provisions as if the hap\u016B was an iwi authority under that Act, and then things can proceed from there. It\u2019s pretty simple, and we\u2019re now straying well away from the commencement. I\u2019m hoping Mr McAnulty has got his amendment under way and we\u2019re good to go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd59a8cc51664f0ca4d6a6ecb0d527fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd59a8cc51664f0ca4d6a6ecb0d527fa\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E I think it might be helpful in this discussion if we go to clauses 5, 6, and 7 of Schedule 1, because these are the only three clauses in the bill that have a different commencement date to the day after Royal assent. So I would ask the Minister if he would like to take us through clauses 5, 6, and 7 and give the rationale for why they are different from the rest of the bill and why it is that nine months is the necessary time frame. Just looking at the Minister; he\u2019s not going to answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI will also go, then, to my amendment to the title clause as well, and that is to, in clause 1, replace Resource Management (Natural and Built Environment and Spatial Planning Repeal and Interim Fast-track Consenting) Bill with \u201CResource Management (Retrograde for the Environment and Efficiency) Bill.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u002227d735fe895a476e95c0525eee7dcf0b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227d735fe895a476e95c0525eee7dcf0b\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair, and thank you to the Minister for allowing me the opportunity to propose an alternative time. I do understand that my colleague the Hon Peeni Henare may have something to say about this amendment also, but we are proposing that the commencement of nine months is changed to 18 months. The reason is it would make sense, we think, for there to be some consistency, given that under clause 5(2)(b) it mentions 18 months: \u201Cuse the Crown\u2019s best endeavours to promote the enactment of the Bill not later than 18 months after the commencement of this clause.\u201D We think that it would make sense to have some level of consistency there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EI take on board the Minister\u2019s point that it is the Government\u2019s intention to fulfil their 100-day plan. But as the last couple of days have shown, things can move slower than expected in Parliament, and what if the Government doesn\u2019t meet that deadline? They have unnecessarily cut themselves short. So we think that it would make sense to give the Government a little bit more time. Not everything\u2019s going to go through Parliament under urgency. And, hey, look, if the Government gets it done within nine months, so what? All good. But at least they\u2019ve built themselves a little bit of a buffer. In the spirit of trying to be constructive at a committee of the whole House stage, hopefully the Minister would consider that amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u002271b639e42ca14a67a90be82572dfaff3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271b639e42ca14a67a90be82572dfaff3\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform):\u003C/span\u003E In the spirit of Christmas, the Government will accept that amendment proposed by Mr McAnulty. He has some\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e4913402e524bcd80580732388751b5\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Is that it? Where\u2019s the other presents?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bf308fb299648d0b2c3606a4577a444\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s pretty good. When was the last time the Government accepted an Opposition amendment on the floor of the House? [Interruption] Well, yours should have been worded better. But I\u2019m struggling to recall the last\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f162e887301447ac8f3e4a6c85c6a69f\u0022\u003EHon Chris Penk\u003C/span\u003E: I remember one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224523d7fb5ee44f77bd95b3ce08bd7d93\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, one. That\u2019s frustrating. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022192b25f45f174ec0b65f0b7afb39ab6a\u0022\u003EHon Chris Penk\u003C/span\u003E: It was a drafting thing, raised by me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224463ff0febb74d3abff4d42a799ec2a5\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, OK. As I say, I remember sitting over where the Labour members are sitting and putting up very, very sensible substantive amendments, including some quite minor ones\u2014minor but important\u2014and the Labour Minister sitting here. So, anyway, it\u2019s all good. We\u2019re not going to support the amendment around the name\u2014nice try\u2014and we\u2019re not going to support Arena Williams\u2019 amendment around the date, although I think that was a better effort. The bill is going to be called what it\u2019s going to be called, but we\u2019ll go with the 18 months, if that makes sense. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc539a3153504f63b7a9a0cd6a87f364\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc539a3153504f63b7a9a0cd6a87f364\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. It\u2019s not like the Chamber to fall silent, so I thought I\u2019d take the opportunity to thank the Minister for his consideration of the 18 months, and it was to my point around iwi and, in particular, the Ng\u0101 Hap\u016B o Ng\u0101ti Porou being in limbo. So bringing it into alignment here, I think, is actually quite a smart move.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI will also, though, pick up on the point made by the Minister in the chair\u2014how Cabinet makes a decision, the House passes a bill, and then the Governor-General signs it into law. Well, an Order in Council is just a little bit more complex than that. An Order in Council isn\u2019t simply a, \u201CLet\u2019s just sign the paper and done deal.\u201D For members across the Chamber, having sat in an Executive Council with the former Governor-General, it was quite a daunting task to sit there and explain your legislation to somebody who\u2019d served on the High Court and served as a Justice, to make sure that it was quite clear to them, because if the rationale wasn\u2019t clear, then they weren\u2019t obliged to sign it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s really just a point of clarification for the Minister in the chair. But I come back to the point around the accepting of the amendment. There are going to be questions about whether or not any of the amendments that the Minister might bring back in between now and that 18 months might continue to impact the time. So we are looking for a reassurance here and for any amendments that will come forward, we will be looking towards making sure we stick to that 18 months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EFrom the feedback and the emails and the messages I\u2019ve had from iwi around the country as they watch this bill progress through the House, there are two words that became obviously clear, in all of the correspondence from them, and they were \u201CLawyer up\u201D. Because what I\u2019m suspecting is that the Government can receive\u2014and will be receiving\u2014significant claims, legal action from iwi right across the country. And I think the 18 months will actually serve them well while they look towards how they might be able to deep dive into this particular repeal bill to make sure that they can cover off all of the bases to know that their rights are protected in this repeal bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s going to be really important from Ng\u0101 Mana Whakahono, also to Ng\u0101 Hap\u016B o Ng\u0101ti Porou, to those who have current arrangements, and I\u2019m heartened by the Minister in the chair\u2019s comments about protecting Te Tiriti o Waitangi settlements, making sure that we continue to honour those as we have done in this House. But I suspect that the 18 months will be a good opportunity to allow iwi to come on board and make sure that they can protect their interests through the right legal mechanisms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s a thank you to the Minister for accepting the 18 months, and we look forward to his return to make sure that we do get these things right, which is how this process should have been done in the first place anyway. If we had gone through the select committee, we wouldn\u2019t have to have pushed out the time; we wouldn\u2019t have to be using words like \u201Clawyer up\u201D in this House. But I know that iwi and hap\u016B are already looking towards doing that to make sure that their rights are protected moving forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022 data-id=\u00223052e8a8c1d04a00a1b53917ab984239\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223052e8a8c1d04a00a1b53917ab984239\u0022\u003EDANA KIRKPATRICK (National\u2014East Coast):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022dd29f8e1a82b4b83afe8cc3407d1b7fe\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8fa6041c4fb4551812a65c47185988c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8fa6041c4fb4551812a65c47185988c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c7a4b8092eca4d0eb7623a26ecd222a3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022848d522a68f64672bf57275bba5c69d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022848d522a68f64672bf57275bba5c69d2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Rachel Brooking\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 1 is out of order as being not an objective description of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225dcad74cb06e4f1fa46c954f4a5200a0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022886e932f4a0d4dccaf5ec4087e608852\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022886e932f4a0d4dccaf5ec4087e608852\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002272f203139ccd48518694ace2448f5a09\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002272f203139ccd48518694ace2448f5a09\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Rachel Brooking\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d79afa42678b4b85bcd323838b245c4b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00223944e94b19fb4387b51f4f987c405f31\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223944e94b19fb4387b51f4f987c405f31\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Kieran McAnulty\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00220f0dcb031ae74baa82f2d1b1a969fb5f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f0dcb031ae74baa82f2d1b1a969fb5f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that clause 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EClause 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002253c1f7de7ec44169a3092b3eefb64647\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253c1f7de7ec44169a3092b3eefb64647\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has considered the Resource Management (Natural and Built Environment and Spatial Planning Repeal and Interim Fast-track Consenting) Bill and reports it with amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002293baee6925d84eae8a18f898890d63eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002293baee6925d84eae8a18f898890d63eb\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The bill is set down for third reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cf65b5df345d4e5f943850aa415d3d15\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022db24af1d6978413cb5a0a1ba4db44141\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db24af1d6978413cb5a0a1ba4db44141\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Resource Management (Natural and Built Environment and Spatial Planning Repeal and Interim Fast-track Consenting) Bill be now read a third time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EI want to start by saying thank you to members from all sides of the House for the constructive way in which we went through the select committee\u2014sorry, no select committee on this one; the committee of the whole House. Sorry, it\u2019s been a tiring three or four weeks. In fact, it\u2019s been a tiring year. I want to thank all the members. I think it was a constructive way through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EAll of the issues have been well canvassed, I think, in the first reading, the second reading, and the committee of the whole House. The Government remains committed to sensible changes to our planning regime that make it easier to get houses built, get aquaculture under way, and get infrastructure built whilst protecting the environment. I think there is a widespread consensus that that is not the case at the moment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe replacement regime that we are repealing today\u2014the Natural and Built Environment Act and the Spatial Planning Act\u2014was a well-intentioned but unfortunate and misguided attempt at fixing our planning regime, and many people consider it would not have worked. The select committee heard submission after submission from people, from councils, from developers of infrastructure, from renewable energy providers\u2014and the member who is the Labour Party environment spokesperson, whom I like a lot and have a lot of time for, needs to be aware of her conflict. The Hon Rachel Brooking was a member of the Randerson panel that begat this nonsense, so it\u2019s fair enough that she\u2019s now in the position she\u2019s in. She became the Associate Minister for the Environment but she was a member of Randerson panel, so, to use an equity term, she does not come at this with clean hands. And I don\u2019t say that in a particularly pejorative way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222574bf518aac423aad803050e2c98ea5\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Are you suggesting an honourable member is not honourable?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227fc36e7cb354e45a41e87d6ca2bf6b1\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, no. I was just making a law joke. Chris Penk found it funny, even if others didn\u2019t. The Government\u2019s accepted an amendment to the legislation on the floor of the House, so I thought we\u2019d get more joie de vivre from the Opposition, but anyway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022036460f40c6542a4a1007abf9fd0b1f6\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Where\u2019s the Christmas joy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c6a892590474f1abfa9a2386cabad96\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Christmas spirit and Christmas joy. I\u2019m proud of this legislation. I\u2019m not proud that we had to do it under urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e89dd8391834b07a0c01b62f57e26e8\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Proud of what you\u2019ve repealed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0d41252446241218826045af6ea869b\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, yeah, I\u2019m proud of all the stuff we\u2019re repealing. As I\u2019ve said multiple times, including in public, when something is not a good piece of legislation, by definition repealing it is good. If it was good, it would stay on the statute book.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe members opposite have this really quite odd attitude that everything the Government must do has to be constructive, and we have to pass elaborate pieces of legislation and we have to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022805a787928da4857864c87e5298bbcf3\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: So you\u2019ve got to be destructive. That\u2019s all right; we get it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a457bd6a9eed4d1399144268c18f2743\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: If repealing something that is destructive by definition, actually, is positive in the sense that it will grow the economy and make it easier to do things, by definition that is constructive. So that\u2019s my point\u2014the binary is a false one. Repealing things can take the country forward. To take an example that the Labour Party members opposite might have some sympathy for, the Labour Party spent most of the 1990s saying the Employment Contracts Act was a disaster. They then repealed the Employment Contracts Act, and the Labour Party back then didn\u2019t go around saying, \u201COh, well, we\u2019re repealing it. Oh, no, this is not good.\u201D They were proud of the repeal. This is what Governments do. Governments change, the political cycle goes, things come and go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EWe came to Government with a mandate to go through systematically and repeal stupid pieces of legislation passed by the last Parliament, by the last Government, and that is what we\u2019re doing. We had fair pay agreements last week, 90-day trials once we get through this; we\u2019ve got the Resource Management Act, we\u2019ve got the clean car/ute tax, and, trust me, there\u2019s more coming in the new year, and I\u2019m looking forward to it. Getting stuff off the statute book is, by definition, positive, right, if it reduces the size of Government and takes the country forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EParliament legislates too much stuff, and one of the problems with the last Government was they just legislated all the time\u2014elaborate, complicated, complex regimes that stuff the statute book with complexity. Actually, we need a smaller Government that reduces down the size of the statute book.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EAnyway, I somewhat digress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236b71045754a4e5db6dae61c011819d3\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: I look forward to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9862b05a9084a4f95bb8f4beb15be3b\u0022\u003ECHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Megan says she\u2019s looking forward to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EAs I\u2019ve sort of advertised, we\u2019re keeping the fast-track consenting regime which was developed by the last Government. We\u2019re developing our own regime, and work is under way at pace. Simon Court, my Parliamentary Under-Secretary for infrastructure and Resource Management Act reform, is working on that alongside our coalition Government parties.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EWe are, as I\u2019ve said to the member Rachel Brooking, interested in spatial planning and how we get that more properly equipped. I\u2019ve decided to keep the Spatial Planning Board, and we\u2019ll work through the roles and functionality of that in due course. I do agree with the member, the point she made at various points, that spatial planning does have a real role to play, but I think it is really important, as I said during the committee of the whole House stage, that we do that in a coherent and structured way that sits alongside other Government priorities alongside water reform. And at some point, in due course, we will have to consider the future of local government reform as well, and, of course, it sits alongside our reforms in infrastructure funding and financing, which, as the member knows and the member sitting next to her knows, is fundamental to getting more houses built in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EI think of the housing challenge as like a trifecta. You\u2019ve got to get the land-use policy done in a comprehensive way. You\u2019ve got to get competitive urban land markets. You\u2019ve got to get the infrastructure funding and financing arrangements right, and you\u2019ve got to get the council incentives lined up so that councils don\u2019t just see growth as something to be ambivalent about or\u2014frankly, many times\u2014hostile to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThey\u2019ve got to see growth as something that\u2019s a good thing because housing growth is in all of our interests, not least the Government\u2019s, and in 20 or so minutes the Minister of Finance will present the mini-Budget and the Half Year Economic and Fiscal Update. I\u2019m not breaking any Budget secrets when I say that the previous Government spent an enormous sum of money every year on housing subsidies\u2014around $4 billion a year once you add up income-related rent, the accommodation supplement, and the tragedy that is emergency housing\u2014and in due course we will have to do what we can to sort that out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EOur planning laws affect almost every aspect of our lives, and it is really important that we get them right. I acknowledge the contribution from Rachel Brooking\u2014the letter, which I will ponder and consider over the summer break, and we\u2019ll come back to her around our sheer desire to create a better New Zealand and a better planning regime. But for now, we have come to the view that the regime put in place by the last Government would have been a retrograde step. We sought at the election a mandate to get it off the statute book. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EI regret the use of urgency. I\u2019m not a fan of urgency in a general sense, but I think it is justified in this case because there\u2019s a 10-year transition window, and if we hadn\u2019t got it off the statute book by Christmas, people would spend an enormous amount of time and money over the Christmas period and the new year\u2014spending time and money on a regime that the Government made clear wasn\u2019t going to exist at some point in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s better to get it off the statute book now and start again, and that\u2019s what we\u2019re going to do, and that\u2019s what the Government is seeking a mandate for from the Parliament, and, with that, thank you very much, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022428553c4cd874d26a32ff959b67cc9ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022428553c4cd874d26a32ff959b67cc9ce\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. A lot to respond to in that contribution from the Minister responsible for RMA Reform about me. So I\u2019ll start with that. I don\u2019t normally\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c296ea80fad249159ffdf4752e7ab66b\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Show us your hands.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297c992838ac04c0a95ac83ff872aef2e\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah\u2014yes, I know. It was an interesting comment\u2014something about my hands not being clean.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI\u2019m very proud to have been a member of that Randerson review group. It did make me just so interested and motivated in becoming a politician, because I knew that the Resource Management Act (RMA) wasn\u2019t working and that it did need changing. I\u2019m happy to say that I came to that review group with a very open mind about some things which were then decided in that review report and became the Spatial Planning Act and the Natural and Built Environment Act. So I came to that with an open mind about whether we needed separate environmental-type regulations from urban planning. The experts that we consulted with and people that we talked with were very clear that it\u2019s very difficult to separate those two issues and leads to more complications. So that is why the Randerson review said no to that idea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI also came to that group with a very open mind about whether or not the RMA could simply be amended, or whether new legislation was required. I\u2019ve listened to Sir Geoffrey Palmer many times at many conferences and his arguments that the RMA wasn\u2019t broken, that it was the implementation around it that was the problem. So I came to that group with that in mind. However, again, we heard time and time again that, fundamentally, the RMA was broken. This is to do with it being so focused on effects, and the whole regime being driven down to that consenting decision-making process. That is expensive. That kept me employed for almost 20 years. That\u2019s not a job I want to go back to. I\u2019ll put that on record here\u2014that\u2019s my conflict: I don\u2019t want to become a resource management lawyer again. I think there shouldn\u2019t be so much GDP in our system at that consenting end.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI\u2019m also, obviously, very interested in the environmental outcomes of the legislation. Of course, they weren\u2019t working under the RMA, and we need clear direction and clear environmental bottom-lines. But my professional interest in this has been always focused on the efficiency of the system and trying to take people\u2014like old Rachel\u2014out of the system, because, really, we should be having clear debates within the community about those planning trade-offs that are always made. As the Minister said, planning is always difficult. People are going to have different views. I said in one of the other speeches, somebody loves a highly modified landscape; somebody else wants to put what I think is a very beautiful wind turbine on it. There\u2019s a debate to be had. Those debates should be higher up the food chain, not at the consenting level.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThat is what these two Acts that have been repealed today did, because it is a complicated system. So rather than everything being at the regulatory stage, there was the Spatial Planning Act. That was to say, \u201CLet\u2019s look\u2014let\u2019s look\u2014into the future. Let\u2019s look about where we want to put growth.\u201D\u2014but also, very importantly, where we don\u2019t want it. We just heard the Minister say that there\u2019s a housing trifecta of some sort. I don\u2019t particularly disagree with the issues that he raised, but he missed a really important one, and that is hazards, climate change, and climate change adaptation. We know that there are areas that don\u2019t have houses on them at the moment, where we don\u2019t want to ever put houses\u2014that that would be the wrong place to put houses, because we know that there will be sea-level rise, we know that there will be higher-intensity winds, and we know that there\u2019s going to be higher-intensity rainfall. So there are areas of the country that we don\u2019t want to put more houses. So it\u2019s very important that we have that all mapped out in spatial plans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EOf course, I was very pleased that my contribution to the Spatial Planning Act was to get the word \u201Cmap\u201D into that Act\u2014eventually. We want to able to see\u2014see what\u2019s going to happen, see that different things happen over different time frames as well. But we also want to know where that infrastructure is\u2014where that existing infrastructure is\u2014that the Minister was talking about in terms of those efficiencies of where you put houses. Obviously, there\u2019s a lot of infrastructure that needs to go with them. If you can intensify areas, then there will already be some existing infrastructure. Some of it might not be big enough, though, so to be able to have those considerations in that spatial planning exercise is very important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThe Minister\u2019s spoken a lot of times about how, \u201COh, well, it wasn\u2019t coherent. We\u2019ve got other things going on.\u201D He keeps talking about local government reform. I don\u2019t think that\u2019s something I heard in the Speech from the Throne\u2014I welcome one of the National speakers to correct me on that if I\u2019m wrong\u2014or, particularly, in manifestos either, about major local government reform. So if the reason for repealing the Spatial Planning Act is that there is going to be local government reform, I think that is a very interesting idea, and it\u2019s certainly not one that I\u2019ve heard mentioned before this, until this debate today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI also heard, again, from the Minister, talking about his involvement, when he was on the Environment Committee, about hearing various submissions. I remind everyone that that was a very fulsome select committee process. It had an exposure bill for the Natural and Built Environment Bill\u2014for the first part of that, for the purpose clauses; that went through its own submission process. The select committee reported back to the House, and then we went through the process of the Natural and Built Environment Bill and the Spatial Planning Bill as well. There were many, many submissions on those bills. A lot of those submissions had very useful amendments suggested. They were picked up by the select committee. So what came into the House in the first reading was very different to what came into the House at second reading, and then, again, there were changes made in the committee of the whole House stage as well. All of these things were done to improve the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EAs I said in one of my speeches on this bill that we\u2019re looking at today, the repeal bill, the importance of renewable energy was not at issue. Everybody agrees about the importance of renewable energy. There were some sections around the time frames for renewal consents, and they were changed in the process. We had debate in the committee of the whole House stage today about what was clause 58 of the Natural and Built Environment Bill\u2014I think it might have become a different numbered section in the Act\u2014and what that was going to do with the planning framework. That included many useful things that would be in that national planning framework, including on hazards, including on papak\u0101inga housing, which we\u2019re hearing about today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s a great shame that we are not going to have all of that national direction combined into one so it\u2019s not in conflict with each other. Of course, at the moment, it is in conflict with each other. There was a process there, in the Natural and Built Environment Act, to make it coherent. This is really important for users of planning legislation. It is very difficult to be going around, if you are either a council, if you\u2019re trying to draft up your plans, and you have one national instrument telling you do one thing, like build those\u2014grow; you don\u2019t build pine trees\u2014grow the pine trees, and look after that water quality. What are those councils supposed to do? You get lots of lawyers involved, and I go back to where I started: that they just shouldn\u2019t be in the system when the Government could be making clear national direction, and doing that national direction to deal with issues that we haven\u2019t spoken about much in the past, and that is the likes of the sponge cities and the importance of green infrastructure\u2014all things that really came out strongly through the select committee submission process and that were embraced by the select committee. My recollection was that all of the select committee was very interested in what we are doing about hazards and how we are planning for the future. So it\u2019s a very sad day indeed, today, and I condemn this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u00225c34834710824ae0b6851aa9b4e32c94\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c34834710824ae0b6851aa9b4e32c94\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. We have so many opportunities to do things better. We have so many opportunities in Aotearoa to live more in harmony with nature\u2014to use energy more efficiently, to produce more green, fully renewable electricity that is low cost, and to ensure that our towns and cities are places where people love to live; where our children have the freedom to get around under their own steam, to get to school by walking or cycling or scootering, if that\u2019s what they wish. That benefits everyone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThey could have the freedom to do this, but it requires doing things differently. And for many decades, we had harmful planning rules that came in after the Town and Country Planning Act that made it more difficult for our kids to walk and cycle to school. So in the last 30 to 40 years, kids stopped walking and cycling to school. Parents, rightly, are concerned about the safety of their kids when there\u2019s fast-moving vehicles, larger vehicles, big SUVs, and utes. And then, when parents have to drive their kids everywhere, that actually reduces the freedom and independence the kids have, but it also makes traffic worse. It makes our transport costs higher.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not just pollution. I mean, people do have a right to live free from pollution, but it\u2019s not just climate change that\u2019s the issue. Fundamentally, our transport system is inefficient and it limits the freedom and ability of people to move around.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EWe have the ability, and the responsibility, to do the right thing, to do things better. Our planning rules aren\u2019t just around urban development\u2014that\u2019s my big focus: the opportunity to do urban development better\u2014it\u2019s also about environmental bottom lines. I have had many colleagues speak in this debate on this bill during the committee of the whole House stage and during the prior stages of this debate. Lan Pham, freshwater ecologist and two-term regional councillor, spoke to the absolute passion communities have had, and the evidence that supports it, with over 50 experts, to have clean water. We could have clean, healthy water, and we don\u2019t have it now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EMy colleague Steve Abel was talking about tree protection. Urban trees make so much sense. They reduce the pressure on our reticulated water system, they make our towns and cities healthier and happier places to be, and they\u2019re just so vitally important. But if we don\u2019t have blanket tree protection, then what happens is we lose that tree cover, and with it we lose the water management that it brings, we lose the native birds, we lose the shade and the climate control\u2014we lose all of that. That\u2019s why tree protection is so important. Scott Willis, who for many years worked in renewable electricity and tried to get a community wind farm up and faced the barriers\u2014I know the old planning regime to get renewable electricity up at a community scale. So the Green Party is full of people who have been passionately working to solve some of these problems, to deliver better outcomes for the community, and to be responsible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThe legislation that\u2019s being repealed today wasn\u2019t perfect, but it went through an incredibly thorough process, with two select committees. That second one attracted 3,000 submissions. Now, I heard the Minister\u2014I asked this question to the Minister during the committee of the whole House stage: I asked what experts said that this Natural and Built Environment Act and Spatial Planning Act were worse than going back to the Resource Management Act, and he couldn\u2019t name a single person. He referred to the select committee process, where there were literally thousands of submissions. One of the most disturbing things\u2014to me, I think\u2014was that he didn\u2019t seem to understand that when people came to the select committee process and raised their issues, the Government then responded and there were further stages of the bill before it was passed through to being an Act. I spoke to some of the people who were concerned about things that were in the bill at select committee, like Manawa Energy, like people who were concerned about Te Mana o te Wai. Well, the Government actually responded to all of those concerns and so the final Act didn\u2019t represent what was at the select committee. So all of this really just exposes how shallow the people in the new Government are, how shallow their knowledge is, how poor their respect is for the democratic process. They went out there, didn\u2019t pay much attention to what was actually happening, or any constructive improvements to it; instead, they mindlessly opposed, in Opposition, everything the Government was doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThey have no clue. The Minister doesn\u2019t even understand the difference between the Spatial Planning Act and the Natural and Built Environment Act. He\u2019s repealing both of them, even though the Spatial Planning Act is fundamentally a different piece of legislation that was making improvements. But he doesn\u2019t know, because he didn\u2019t do the work in Opposition. All they did was shallowly oppose everything in a bid to get more votes, in a bid to get into Government. But I think the people of New Zealand would have reasonably expected people elected to Government to take a fulsome approach, a robust approach, and not to throw everything out when a bunch of it was actually really useful\u2014a bunch of it was actually useful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo here we are: the one thing being kept is fast-tracked consenting. Now, that\u2019s not really a surprise. The truth is that the current people who are in Government, who found themselves in a position of responsibility, are not going to exercise that responsibility on behalf of all the people of New Zealand, our future generations, or our environment. Oh no, no, no, no\u2014they are here to represent the existing power structure of people who currently have all the money and power, and they\u2019re going to maintain that and make sure that they can make more money, that they can continue to exploit workers and our environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ENow, I don\u2019t doubt that there are some people sitting over there who don\u2019t realise that that\u2019s what their Government is doing\u2014they truly think they believe in efficiency and better outcomes and good value for money and protecting the environment in a responsible way. But when you look at the reality of what is in this bill, there was an alternative scenario. The Minister Chris Bishop could have not rushed through urgency to repeal six years of work, where thousands of people submitted, where we spent a quarter of a billion dollars getting the advice and doing the work to come up with a new system. We could see how it was working and make adjustments to it. But instead, they\u2019ve decided to repeal it all within three weeks of Parliament starting\u2014throw out all of that effort.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EPersonally, I hate waste. And what breaks my heart is coming to this House and seeing the wasted time and effort that could have gone into good legislation, that could have produced better outcomes for our people, for our planet. The current Government throws it all away because they haven\u2019t bothered to try and understand. They don\u2019t actually believe in democracy\u2014they\u2019re here to preserve the existing power structure. The people with the most power and money want to keep on exploiting the environment, want to keep on exploiting workers, and it suits those people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThey need to think long and hard: if you came to this place because you truly believe in solutions, how do the people sitting opposite feel about watching such a shoddy approach to lawmaking, to watching $250 million of taxpayers\u2019 resources, public resources, being wasted and thrown down the drain? And how do they feel\u2014how do they feel\u2014about knowing that over 50 percent of our freshwater waterways are at threat? What is their answer? What is their constructive solution? Why are they delaying the clear national direction that is needed for regional councils to be able to bring in the rules that will actually protect our fresh waterways now and into the future? Because if we don\u2019t act very soon, extinction is for ever\u2014extinction is for ever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThe members opposite clearly believe that they\u2019re in the born to rule class, that they\u2019re the responsible ones, that they\u2019re somehow going to come up with solutions that are going to look after not just the people who are currently the most powerful but the long-term benefit of our natural environment. Because what is happening today is a mindless oppositional repeal from a Minister who\u2019s not across the detail, who doesn\u2019t actually know what\u2019s being repealed, and is going to have to start over the work from scratch. But what they are going to do, and I have no doubt about this\u2014and people watching at home need to know this\u2014is they\u2019re going to use this fast-track consenting to ride roughshod over environmental bottom lines and communities in order to help vested interests achieve the outcomes they want, and ultimately it\u2019s all about conserving the status quo: doing more of what we already know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EYou know, the definition of insanity\u2014we\u2019ve heard it many times\u2014is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. When it comes to protecting our natural environment, when it comes to futureproofing climate-resilient communities and building cities that welcome and work with nature, that enable freedom and a future for our children, the current National - New Zealand First - ACT Government has no vision, they have no ideas, and they\u2019re going to be here to maintain the status quo and the existing power structure. The Green Party will continue putting up positive solutions\u2014this bill is not one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022 data-id=\u00220b2b6607b71e492daa33d6ab89b9b431\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b2b6607b71e492daa33d6ab89b9b431\u0022\u003ESIMON COURT (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E The ACT Party is proud to support the repeal of the Natural and Built Environment Act and the Spatial Planning Act and the maintenance of a fast-track opportunity for businesses and organisations that want to get on, get a consent, and start building things that produce value. Because unless we do that in New Zealand, we will continue the economic and social decline that the previous Labour Government perpetuated. There\u2019s nothing that signals more clearly the confusion between the need for economic and social growth and environmental protection\u2014the failure to identify a suitable balance\u2014than the Acts we\u2019re repealing here today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s true that resource management reform is long overdue and much delayed. In the early 1990s, I studied resource management law. I proposed to a lecturer that a property development model\u2019s consent conditions would fly through a hearing, and that my development would be given a tick by the commissioners, and that my contractors would be able to start work within a few short weeks. Well, my lecturer told me back in the 1990s, \u201CThat\u2019s not how it works, Sonny Jim. You\u2019ll just have to spend a bit more time spending money on resource management lawyers and arguing with commissioners about consent conditions.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EBut it turns out all the things that we\u2019ve learnt how to do well, whether it\u2019s erosion and sediment control, whether it\u2019s identifying where threatened bat species are roosting in trees and when is the best time to fell the trees because the bats have moved on\u2014we know all that information. We don\u2019t need the Natural and Built Environment Act or the Spatial Planning Act to send us back 30 years to have a bit of a navel-gazing exercise for further decades on how to resolve the conflict between developing land, economic growth, and environmental protection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019ve heard from some members of the Opposition that because the former Minister David Parker spent a quarter of a billion dollars in developing the Natural and Built Environment Act and Spatial Planning Act, we should just let it go and we should just accept that. Well, the ACT Party does not believe in the sunk cost fallacy that has led to the sinking of the Interislander proposal and will no doubt lead to the sinking of many more Labour sunk cost fallacies. Time to pull the handbrake on. Let\u2019s turn this four-wheel drive, New Zealand, around.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003ENow, I want to describe what a future resource management reform might look like. There was a gentleman who participated in founding one of the world\u2019s modern and greatest States, George Washington. He said that freedom and property rights are inseparable. You can\u2019t have one without the other. Freedom to build means reducing the number of people who can object to the things you want to build, whether you\u2019re a land developer, whether you\u2019re a public asset owner, or whether you\u2019re somebody who just wants to build a distribution warehouse so that your goods can find their way to customers and not have to argue about the colour of it or whether it sticks up a little bit higher than your neighbour\u2019s building. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EWe need to focus on trade-offs. Land development and economic development lead to social development and social uplift. Protecting things just for the sake of it or because some members of this House, some political parties, believe we can return to some kind of year zero pre-human environmental state\u2014completely unrealistic\u2014completely unrealistic. Future resource management reform must focus on the benefits of development while protecting the places that New Zealanders value and regard as special.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003EThat is what this coalition Government will be bringing in 2024. ACT supports this bill. I commend it to the House. Let\u2019s go, New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022 data-id=\u002247df192040794962a8a5c012c7346ad1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247df192040794962a8a5c012c7346ad1\u0022\u003EJAMIE ARBUCKLE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to take a call in the third reading of this bill, the Resource Management (Natural and Built Environment and Spatial Planning Repeal and Interim Fast-track Consenting) Amendment Bill. As I do that, I say that it was interesting hearing through the readings of this bill, especially from our coalition partners. Some of us, probably, on this side of the House have worked very much with the Resource Management Act (RMA), and I am one of those people, and it is ironic that today I stand in support of going back to the RMA. But it is actually this complexity that we have in front of us with the Natural and Built Environment Act (NBA) and the Spatial Planning Act that has put us into this situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003EIt was always ironic to me. With the NBA, it almost sounds like a basketball game. Basically, what we are dealing with here today is a basketball player with the wrong ball going down a court, and we\u2019re actually going to throw that ball out of court and get the right one back on there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003EIn section 5 in Part 2 of the RMA, the purpose of the Act is really what we should be concentrating on, and the RMA and the purpose of this new NBA is something that we haven\u2019t really explored in this House in this debate. But as we got wider in the NBA proposal, the complexity that that would have brought into the resource management planning would have just been so much and so complex. To me, also adding in the issues around the Treaty and putting the principles of the Treaty into the NBA would just cause that much complexity for users, and it gives people uncertainty. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003EThe fast tracking\u2014we look forward to that. The New Zealand First Party also looks forward to other changes to fast tracking as we go ahead, but having that interim fast tracking retained is something we definitely support. It is also giving certainty to people outside of this House, going forward, of what we are actually doing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003ESo New Zealand First commends this bill to the House today, and I am proud to stand up for New Zealand First and to actually see that legislation put into the bin. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00224ac405f88de14feb9cb62c8d748a1eeb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ac405f88de14feb9cb62c8d748a1eeb\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This call is a split call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022 data-id=\u002269b7988b6471412abeb0f750e55e6618\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269b7988b6471412abeb0f750e55e6618\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te P\u012Bka. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou e te Whare. I guess I\u2019ve got to start by, first, commending the Government. You went out to change the course of history, and indeed that is what you have started and achieved. You are going to go down in history as being one of the most destructive and backward-thinking Governments we\u2019ve ever seen in Te Ao M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EI get why you\u2019re comfortable picking a fight with M\u0101ori, and I\u2019ll say it again: you have parties, like ACT, that got 1 percent of the M\u0101ori vote; you\u2019ve got New Zealand First, who got 4 percent of the M\u0101ori vote; and National, who got 5 percent. Together, collectively, you got 10 percent of the M\u0101ori vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c12ac57819ab4c21a702ab31b06f2538\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: A lot more than that\u2014a lot more than that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022655941d6e4da46c297e7801196e92a26\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER\u003C/span\u003E: And I hear you say, \u201CWe had an election\u201D, which indeed you did. But you did not get a strong mandate from M\u0101ori, and as the party that got 30 percent\u2014in fact, seven times more than some of you\u2014and who got six of the seven M\u0101ori electorate seats, I can confidently say that you are not supported by M\u0101ori at all, and especially in this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EWe had before us the opportunity to make things better and, unlike everyone in the House today, I\u2019m speaking from the fact that Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori did not support it with Labour. We did not support the Resource Management Act (RMA) changes with Labour, because they weren\u2019t enough. When we look at what it is you\u2019re proposing, I have never seen anything so backward in my life. And I have worked in the RMA space for years and years. You are a Government that prided itself with the National Iwi Chairs. You were part and parcel of working with the iwi in technical aspects of the regulations for the Environmental Protection Authority and for Ministry for the Environment. You were part and parcel of working with iwi on the best practice guidelines\u2014you\u2019ll remember this, David\u2014between iwi and oil companies. You had a record that showed your true intent with the M\u0101ori communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003ETe Mana o te Wai, te Oranga o te Taiao\u2014those were kaupapa you supported. And in good will those in Whanganui, Te Awa Tupua; those in Taranaki, Te Maunga K\u0101hui; those in all our electorates were really supportive of what it is that you were proposing to do. The truth is that what you are doing is you have done some of the most offensive exclusions and amendments that we\u2019ve ever seen. So we question why you replaced\u2014why you deliberately replaced\u2014\u201CTe Tiriti\u201D with \u201Cthe Treaty of Waitangi\u201D, knowing only 50 rangatira\u2014only 50 rangatira\u2014signed the Treaty. Five hundred rangatira signed Te Tiriti. Why would you convert to the English version, knowing that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be45a7bbede74c5e929057218642c2cd\u0022\u003EDavid MacLeod\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I\u2019m hearing the word \u201Cyou\u201D throughout the speech here, and I understand that\u2019s not actually appropriate. It should be via the Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f00a618a63d34ceca43123ea0658aadd\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you to the member for that point of order. It was something I was going to mention at the end of the speech. I wasn\u2019t going to interrupt the speaker, but now that you\u2019ve brought it up, yes, saying \u201Cyou\u201D is bringing the Speaker into the debate. So perhaps if the member could talk about \u201Cthe Government members\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cc1138f99a84712b2b53a69ee079d8f\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER\u003C/span\u003E: My apologies for that offensiveness. I guess it\u2019s really hard\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8988a8892cf4e9b9564afa10de9fc43\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not offended, by the way. I\u2019m just trying to upkeep the rules.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022badf777faef64b0a9b56f57a3e7bbf08\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you\u2014appreciate it. We have questioned why it is that we have reverted to the English version, which we all know. I guess it\u2019s probably like your \u201CTe Papa\u201D moment\u2014that you accept that M\u0101ori ceded sovereignty. M\u0101ori did not cede sovereignty. We are watching this Government erode our rights and interests, under urgency, without so much as engaging with a single iwi and hap\u016B. I look at some members of the Government who have been out in communities asking to support these communities in their wind farms and their ocean, asking to support these communities and their iwi with their economic aspirations, and I really look forward to the conversations that this Government is going to have going forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EWe also questioned the Minister\u2014on the same page, 83\u2014about why \u201Chap\u016B\u201D has been removed. We understand that we\u2019ve got iwi still included, but for some reason hap\u016B have been removed from the bill. This is an erosion of rights and interests of those who make up Aotearoa. Again, I totally understand that this Government doesn\u2019t have a M\u0101ori mandate, but the Government must\u2014must\u2014respect hap\u016B and iwi rights and interests. You cannot wipe us out. You can remove hap\u016B from the bill, you can remove our reo from your agencies, but we will not, as tangata whenua, go away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f54d1d9030fe42a895e93f73ca4b8ce3\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The word \u201Cyou\u201D\u2014just remember. I know it\u2019s hard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8d202be1bfa43eab65e850641338150\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER\u003C/span\u003E: I appreciate it. So, hiding in urgency\u2014this is a party that is all about bottom lines. As long as it\u2019s just above dead, this Government is about right. Mauri ora is a top line kaupapa. Te Awa Tupua, Te Maunga K\u0101hui, all these kaupapa have been about\u2014te Oranga o te Taiao. They are about mauri ora and about keeping up with the top line of what we require, aspirationally and, most importantly, for our future generations. We have a Government that has absolutely provided certainty: it has provided certainty to mana whenua, tangata whenua, iwi, hap\u016B, wh\u0101nau across Aotearoa, and you have set the tone for your next three years. We do not support the changes and the repeal that this Government has put to us. Kia ora r\u0101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022 data-id=\u002205f7924d3afb48f68455290fe2285360\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205f7924d3afb48f68455290fe2285360\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker. This Government\u2019s gone-by-Christmas approach is a recipe for continuing with short-term, ad hoc development, determined by the whims of individual property developers and companies instead of true community consensus, where tangata whenua had a stronger voice in an integrated ki uta ki tai or mountains to sea planning framework\u2014one that, while imperfect, actually had a chance of delivering positive outcomes for all New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EAnd I do want to reflect that with all the huff and puff of the debate of this repeal, it can be really easy to lose sight of what everyone\u2019s really even talking about and why it all even matters. But I want to assure the Government that the repeal of this bill matters. It matters to the 3,000 submitters who gave their time, energy, and expertise, contributing to this fit for purpose environmental management system that\u2014although it went nowhere far enough in recognition of the tino rangatiratanga of tangata whenua\u2014was a step in the right direction. It matters to every New Zealander\u2014tangata whenua and tangata Tiriti\u2014who has ever turned up to their usual swimming, fishing, or mahinga kai spot to find themselves risking their own or their loved ones\u2019 health from simply drinking, swimming, or coming into contact with contaminated rivers, lakes, and oceans, and will have to wait years longer for any improvements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EIt matters to ratepayers who welcomed the ability of their councils to actually claim the costs of monitoring, investigation, or prosecution from the person or company responsible for any non-compliance instead of this coming from ratepayer funds. It matters to those growers\u2014and, actually, literally anyone who consumes food who wanted better protection of high-quality rural land and elite soils from urban sprawl; improvements to ensure our environmental laws were better monitored, enforced, and complied with; and a built environment that actually reduces the risks from natural hazards and climate change. It matters to the thousands of consent holders who are already going above and beyond to protect and restore the environment and meet their consent conditions, when the few individuals that we see letting the majority down through serious environmental and resource consent breaches are met with pitiful and ineffective fines that were substantially increased through these Acts as critical deterrents to unacceptable environmental damage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EIt matters to councils\u2014it matters because their ability to suspend or end the consent if there was ongoing or repeated failure to implement the consent conditions is now removed. It matters to all the consent applicants: iwi, hap\u016B, councils, courts, and the public, who will now need to continue to wrestle with interpreting the plethora of over 100 different Resource Management Act (RMA) plans and policy statements when the Acts would have reduced this number to 16. It matters to any and every person in Aotearoa who wants to leave a healthy, thriving environment to our kids, our grandkids, and future generations, because that is what true prosperity looks like. In fact, there is so much about this bill that it is repealing that matters\u2014that it reveals that this Government\u2019s action in repealing these acts amounts to nothing more than costly political pettiness.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EBut the ultimate disappointment in all of this is the short-sightedness. It\u2019s the lack of understanding that the very real limits to our vulnerable environment need to be respected, and it\u2019s the immeasurable value of ecological integrity and upholding Te Tiriti that this Government does not seem to understand. But I appreciate that that may all be a bit of a down buzz, because \u2018tis the season to be jolly. So I guess from this Government to all New Zealanders, it\u2019s a Merry back-to-the-RMA-death-by-a-thousand-cuts Christmas for them and our precious te taiao; environment\u2014again, leaving our kids, grandkids, and future generations to pick up the pieces and ultimately pay the tab. And that is something the Greens will never support. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022 data-id=\u002277dd9f7061e64bef95997dac5048e049\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002277dd9f7061e64bef95997dac5048e049\u0022\u003EDAVID MacLEOD (National\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand\u2019s economy inextricably relies on the use of our natural environment, and it needs to remain healthy for all people\u2019s wellbeing\u2014ng\u0101 t\u0101ngata katoa. The art is to get the tension between both the economy and the environment balanced. A regime that allows the use of the environment while protecting it, a regime that achieves this outcome as efficiently and effectively as practically achievable\u2014that is what this bill seeks to realise, and I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u00229901cdbd06124acf89cb0206500d03e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229901cdbd06124acf89cb0206500d03e9\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E All good policy starts with the problem definition. What we\u2019ve heard from the Government is that the reason why they are taking New Zealand backwards, back to 1991, into a piece of legislation that is no longer fit for purpose is because the legislation put in place by the previous Government was difficult and it made it difficult to get things done and was bad for the environment. What we\u2019ve had is the Minister in charge of this legislation, the Hon Chris Bishop, and indeed the Prime Minister, the Rt Hon Christopher Luxon, going around trumpeting as one of the key examples of why this needed to be taken back is because it was so difficult to get renewable energy projects over the line.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWind farms was something that was often touted. Their case in point was West Wind farm here in Wellington, where both Chris Bishop and the Prime Minister would claim that that project took anywhere between seven to 10 years to get consented. This is a fallacy. This is incorrect, and it is wrong. That project took six months from the time of lodging that consent with the Wellington City Council. There was 18 months in the Environment Court. So from consent to the decision coming out of the Environment Court, it was three years, not the seven, eight, or 10 years that we\u2019ve had the Minister in charge, and indeed the Prime Minister, running around telling New Zealanders that it took.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EAnd that is a problem, not just because they are wrong and have been misleading with the information that they\u2019ve been giving out, but it speaks to the problem of putting this legislation through urgency. That is the point of select committee. That is the point of scrutiny. That is what our legislative process in New Zealand is based on, and the ability for submitters to have a say and to be heard. When we have a Government that doesn\u2019t even understand its own problem definition and is intent on rushing through legislation by Christmas, that is where we are running into a huge amount of problems.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe legislation that is being repealed is legislation that is about getting that balance between protecting our environment and making sure that we can enable activity in our economy that needs to be enabled. This was not rushed legislation; this was legislation that went through scrutiny after scrutiny after scrutiny. And were there problems that were identified through that process? Of course there were. I know, sitting on the ministerial advisory group, that in the areas I was responsible for, an issue was highlighted that the legislation, as it was in the bill, was not permissive enough in terms of reconsenting of hydroelectricity assets. So we changed it. We listened to the submitters, and we made the change to the bill before it was passed into the Act that is being repealed today. And that is what good legislation looks like, not something that is being pushed through by a Government that can\u2019t even understand its own problem definition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EAnd then what we have is that we have the Government still saying it\u2019s so hard to get things consented, but they\u2019re going to keep the fast-track provisions that our Government put in. No wonder, because if you want to look at how you actually get that balance right, how you can see the progress that needs to be made, you need to look no further than the fast-track consenting provisions that our Government put in place after COVID as a means of stimulating activity in the economy but that actually work so well that they were carried over to be a permanent feature of the new planning framework in the legislation that we\u2019re repealing today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo if I have a look at what was achieved there, nine solar panel projects were approved through that. That was nearly 1.9 million panels that were approved to go through the fast-track process. That is 1,147 megawatts of renewable electricity generation through those projects. To put that in context, the Clyde Dam is 432 megawatts. What we are talking about is something that was nearly three times the output of the Clyde Dam, and that was only solar panels, because there were also wind farms that went through that. Three major wind farm projects were also approved to go through fast-track consenting\u2014again, equal to the Clyde Dam. Of the, I think it was, 108 projects that were referred through the fast-track process that we had\u201415 of them being green and renewable energy projects\u2014was four times the capacity of the Clyde Dam.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EShow me the problem definition, members on the Government side. We are not hearing it. You\u2019re saying\u2014sorry, not you, Madam Speaker; you would never say such a thing, but the Government is saying that it is too difficult to get things done. We are talking about four times the capacity of the Clyde Dam in electricity generation being approved to go through a process in a matter of months, and we are told that that is somehow broken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve also had Chris Bishop come and say that he is truly a progressor for going backwards, that he is somehow putting forward constructive solutions. Well, I\u2019m sorry, Mr Bishop. All he is presiding over as a Minister is taking New Zealand backwards and showing the lack of vision that this Government holds. All that could be campaigned on was to repeal, not even the replacement of it. The replacement\u2014I might not agree with it, but I could have some respect for it if there was an idea and a vision of what it was going to be replaced with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EBut we have a party and parties that are forming this Government that failed in the nine years they were in Government to get Resource Management Act (RMA) reform over the line\u2014they tried and tried and failed and failed again\u2014now coming back, repealing, and saying, \u201CTrust us. Magically we will be able to do something.\u201D Well, we look forward to that, because the track record isn\u2019t great, and instead, we\u2019re going to be going round and round in circles, stuck in 1991 land with a set of planning and environmental provisions that do not understand climate change, do not understand the modern Treaty relationship as has evolved today, does not understand the issues around water shortages, even the multiple amendments to the RMA. Everyone was in agreement. The RMA was broken and needed fixing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWe had the Minister, Chris Bishop, come down and say, \u201CWell, you did it. A previous Labour Government, when they\u2019ve come in, they repealed things too.\u201D And he gave the example of us repealing the Employment Contracts Act. We certainly did, but we just didn\u2019t repeal that stain on our statute books; in our time in Opposition we had come up with an alternative, and that is what this Government is failing to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhat was put in place\u2014I just have to have a little something I prepared earlier\u2014is the Employment Relations Act of 2000, a comprehensive piece of legislation that was put in place with ideas, vision, and thinking of what we thought a modern employment environment would look like. Are we seeing that from the Government in terms of a comprehensive piece of legislation that shows vision for what they want to do instead? I might not agree with it. I might agree with parts of it. I might disagree with parts of it. More likely than not we would hold different views on bits of it. But I would have more respect if there were parties that could front up to this Parliament and put through something substantive that showed what they wanted to do, not where they wanted to take New Zealand backwards to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo if we look at the Employment Relations Act\u2014the Minister brought it up as the great comparator that he was bringing in there\u2014this legislation that we replaced it with and the thinking we had done in Opposition promoted concepts of good faith and fair bargaining. It brought in mediation, it brought in personal grievances, it established the Employment Relations Authority and the Employment Court, and it promoted collective bargaining. There was substance with what was being replaced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThis is a Government that has no ideas. This is a Government that has no momentum to take New Zealand forward. All it can do is go backwards to the future, and what we will see is New Zealand worse off for it. This is a Government that has no plan to how it\u2019s going to cut emissions and meet our emissions reduction budget. It has no plans how it is going to have constructive 21st century Treaty relationships, and that is what has been shown in every contribution in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EI look forward to a day when we have a Government on those benches actually proposing what they are going to do rather than what they are going to undo, because someday they will need to front up and share what their vision for New Zealand is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0a8959d9526451fadee2261882d4584\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0a8959d9526451fadee2261882d4584\u0022\u003EMIKE BUTTERICK (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. There\u2019s no doubt that Labour\u2019s new Acts will just simply make it harder to get things done. We\u2019ll be developing our own Resource Management Act reform programme to make it easier, not harder, to do things. We\u2019ll build a new planning system to make it easier to consent new infrastructure. And importantly, in my electorate\u2014central Hawke\u2019s Bay, Tararua, Wairarapa\u2014and across New Zealand, farmers must be allowed to farm, growers to grow, and builders to build so our economy can actually maintain its viability in the world markets. I look forward to the repeal of this legislation today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u00223abda70892914a2cbf4071923cb0c2d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223abda70892914a2cbf4071923cb0c2d9\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker, thank you for the opportunity to speak on this bill. I wish to begin by just reflecting on a quote which was offered to this House by the member from the ACT Party, a quote which he attributed to George Washington, asserting that freedom and property rights are inseparable: you can\u2019t have one without the other. I looked at the language of that quote, and I thought, that language doesn\u2019t seem right for someone who is speaking in the 18th century. It just doesn\u2019t seem right. So I googled. I googled some more and hunted around. That particular quote is often attributed to George Washington, but there is no evidence whatsoever that he actually ever said it. In fact, it was an evidence-free quote from the member for the ACT Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a couple of things that come out of that. First of all, this happens to be an evidence-free repeal from the National Government. It stems from nowhere but a desire to undo everything that the previous Government has done. That\u2019s despite the fact that the National Party itself, when it was last in power, tried for nine years to get reform of the Resource Management Act 1991 (RMA) through, and couldn\u2019t do it. Everyone recognised that there was a problem with the RMA. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, these Acts that we put through when we were in Government\u2014the Natural and Built Environment Act 2023, the Spatial Planning Act 2023\u2014were evidence-based legislation. It was a long and evidence-based process, starting with the Randerson committee going through an exposure draft of the legislation, an exposure draft that the Environment Committee spent months\u2014years\u2014looking at it in order to make sure the legislation was good legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EGoing on from that exposure draft, it went into the actual select committee process. So there was a very long select committee process during which the legislation was improved, which is exactly the purpose of a select committee process. There was a whole lot of evidence that sat behind this legislation. It was good legislation, and it is being taken away to replace with what? Diddly-squat. Just nothing, absolutely nothing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI want to talk about that again, because one of the fascinating things about the era in which George Washington was operating, in which the founders of the American republic were operating, was one of negotiation, of consideration, of debate, of considering issues back and forth. The American Constitution didn\u2019t come out of nowhere, and it is a document that encourages conversation and negotiation. This is exactly the process that we went through with the legislation establishing the Natural and Built Environment Act and the Spatial Planning Act\u2014it was a process of negotiation and discussion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EIndeed, that is the characteristic of most of the legislation that goes through this House\u2014negotiation, discussion, reflection, evidence, consideration, often done by the incredible officials we have working for us in the various Government departments, and expressed in a regulatory impact statement, expressed in various ways. But even that was done away with by this Government over here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo the process behind this bill is flawed. There is no conversation about it. It was a simple \u201CLet\u2019s get rid of it\u201D. It\u2019s a process that overturns the evidence, the hard work, the negotiation that went on for nearly six years in order to get it right. We took our time, we got it right, and we worked on it to improve it as we went through\u2014tossed in the bin by this Government, which, so far, has not introduced any legislation of its own. All it has done is introduce repeal bill after repeal bill after repeal bill after repeal bill, undo, destroy, destruct things, completely refuse to negotiate, do not engage in a long process that we have established in this Parliament and in this country for ensuring that there is good legislation that governs us, governs our property rights, governs the way we interact with each other. It is a disgrace, and the National Party should be ashamed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4938bddcbd84aea823e4bd8ae58dfae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4938bddcbd84aea823e4bd8ae58dfae\u0022\u003EDr HAMISH CAMPBELL (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support Resource Management (Natural and Built Environment and Spatial Planning Repeal and Interim Fast-track Consenting) Bill. I stand as a representative of the National Party and I\u2019m proud of my team members who, before coming into this House, have done many great things in their lives, from farming through to agriculture to horticulture. They have been at the brunt of this and they will tell you that the last thing the country needs is this unworkable legislation, holding up the construction of renewable energy, farming, and many other productive things that this country needs. So I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u00223b9dfdec4ed54e52a39e1ba39dc8b9ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b9dfdec4ed54e52a39e1ba39dc8b9ca\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker\u2014reo M\u0101ori. \u0100, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou e te Whare. Kua tae t\u0101tou ki te w\u0101hanga tuatoru o te haerenga o t\u0113nei pire me taku hiahia kia whakaatu atu ki t\u0113nei K\u0101wanatanga i te ngako o ng\u0101 nawe e p\u0101kau atu ana ki t\u014D t\u0101tou iwi M\u0101ori, ng\u0101 whakaaro o te iwi M\u0101ori e p\u0101kau atu ana ki t\u0113nei pire, me te hiahia kia m\u014Dhio p\u016B ai \u0113nei hunga i te h\u014Dhonutanga o ng\u0101 whakaaro me te reo M\u0101ori, t\u0101 te meakua rongo atu ahau i \u0113tahi kei t\u0113r\u0101 taha o te Whare e k\u014Drero M\u0101ori ana, e whakahua ana i ng\u0101 kupu M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ET\u0113n\u0101 pea anei te tauira kia whakaatuhia atu ki a r\u0101tou te h\u014Dhonutanga o t\u014Dku reo M\u0101ori. Mai i anamata, ka k\u014Drerohia e \u014Dku t\u016Bpuna o Ng\u0101puhi m\u014D te ao i tupu nei r\u0101tou, m\u014D te taiao i tupu nei r\u0101tou, m\u014D t\u0101 r\u0101tou tirohanga ki te ao me te whenua ka nohoaia e r\u0101tou. An\u0101, me p\u0113nei te tauira.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u201CKa hanga nei i t\u014Dku whare: ko Papat\u016B\u0101nuku te paparahi, ko ng\u0101 maunga ng\u0101 poupou, ko Ranginui e titiro iho nei te tuanui\u201D. Ka whakar\u0101popoto ake ahau i t\u0113r\u0101 whakatauk\u012B. N\u0101 e k\u014Drero atu ana te whakatauk\u012B m\u014D te nohoanga o Ng\u0101puhi ki roto o t\u014Dna ake whenua, ki roto an\u014D hoki i t\u014Dna ake rohe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EN\u0101 ka tae ki te taima o te Tiriti o Waitangi. M\u014D ng\u0101 mema kei t\u0113r\u0101 taha o te Whare, me k\u012B p\u0113nei au ki te Whare: ki roto i te w\u0101hanga tuarua o te Tiriti o Waitangi, ka k\u012B atu te Tiriti o Waitangi ki ng\u0101 rangatira o te whakaminenga te tino rangatiratanga o \u014D r\u0101tou whenua, \u014D r\u0101tou k\u0101inga, \u014D r\u0101tou taonga katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EKa k\u014Drero an\u014D au i t\u0113r\u0101 k\u014Drero: ka hoatu ki ng\u0101 rangatiratanga o te w\u2019akaminenga te tino rangatiratanga o \u014D r\u0101tou whenua, \u014D r\u0101tou k\u0101inga, me \u014D r\u0101tou taonga katoa. Ka taea e t\u0113tahi te k\u012B atu, \u201C\u0101e, he p\u0101tai kei roto\u201D. Engari ko t\u0101ku e mea atu ana, ki t\u0101 te M\u0101ori, horekau he p\u0101tai. He mea m\u0101m\u0101 noa te kite atu i ng\u0101 kupu me ng\u0101 ngako o aua kupu ki roto i te Tiriti o Waitangi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EN\u0101 ka tae mai ki ng\u0101 taima o t\u014Dku oranga. Ka kapohia ake e ahau \u0113tahi k\u014Drero mai i t\u014Dku iwi, o Ng\u0101ti Hine. Anei te k\u014Drero a t\u014Dku matua, a Tohe Ashby, tohunga o Ng\u0101ti Hine: \u201CKua roa rawa a Ng\u0101ti Hine e whakapaipai ana, e whakarauora ana i ng\u0101 mahi taiao ki roto i te rohe. Ko t\u0101 m\u0101tou mahere tuatahi e p\u0101 ana ki te taiao i tukuna ki te tari k\u0101wanatanga i te tau 1990. Koinei te mahere \u0101-iwi tuatahi i tukuna atu ki te K\u0101wanatanga. Kei roto i te mahere e k\u014Drero ana i ng\u0101 mahi rangatira a Ng\u0101ti Hine, me ng\u0101 kaupapa i mahia e Ng\u0101ti Hine ki te tiaki i te taiao, an\u0101, kia t\u0101matahia ng\u0101 repo o te taiao, an\u0101 ki te whakarauora an\u014D hoki i ng\u0101 momo taonga p\u0113nei i te k\u016Bkupa, p\u0113nei i te tuna.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI t\u0113nei w\u0101, he w\u0101hanga poto ki roto i te reo P\u0101keh\u0101 e ai ki a Tohe Ashby.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E[Well, greetings to all of us in the House. We have arrived at the third stage of the passage of this bill, and I would like to show this Government the thrust of the issues that our M\u0101ori people are shouldering, the opinions of the M\u0101ori people that they are carrying about this bill, and I want these people to truly understand the depth of the opinions and of the M\u0101ori language, because I have heard some people on that side of the House speaking M\u0101ori, and uttering M\u0101ori words.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EPerhaps this is the example to demonstrate to them the depth of my M\u0101ori language. Since former times, my ancestors from Ng\u0101puhi spoke about the world in which they grew up, the environment within which they grew, and about their perceptions of the world and the land that they lived in. And so, the example should go like this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u201CI will build my own house: Papat\u016B\u0101nuku is the floor, the mountains are the supporting pillars, the roof is Ranginui that is looking down upon us\u201D. I will summarise that proverb. So the proverb speaks about how Ng\u0101puhi lived on their own land, and in their own region.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EAnd then we get to the time of the Treaty of Waitangi. For the members on that side of the House, I should say to the House: in the second article of the Treaty of Waitangi, the Treaty of Waitangi guarantees the leaders of the assembly the sovereignty over their lands, their homes, and all of their taonga.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI will repeat that statement: it gives the leaders of the assembly the sovereignty over their lands, their homes, and all of their taonga. Someone can say, \u201CYes, there are questions in there\u201D. But what I am saying is that, according to M\u0101ori, there is no question. It is perfectly simple to see the words and the substance of those words in the Treaty of Waitangi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EAnd then we come to the times of my life. I will grab some of the statements of my people, of Ng\u0101ti Hine. This is the statement of my patriarch, of Tohe Ashby, expert of Ng\u0101ti Hine: \u201CFor a long time, Ng\u0101ti Hine has been improving and revitalising the environmental work within the region. Our first plan regarding the environment was submitted to the Government. Within the plan, it speaks about the noble efforts of Ng\u0101ti Hine, and the initiatives that were conducted by Ng\u0101ti Hine to protect the environment, you see, to restore the wetlands of the environment, and also to revitalise particular kinds of taonga like the wood pigeon, and like the eel.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EAt this time, a short section in the English language according to Tohe Ashby.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ETo be a good kaitiaki is a responsibility not a right. It is a responsibility that we as Ng\u0101ti Hine are born with and one where the right answers for the future are the best found by the first understanding and the knowledge and wisdom left to us by our t\u016Bpuna.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EAnei ng\u0101 k\u014Drero a \u014Dku m\u0101tua, a \u014Dku t\u016Bpuna e p\u0101 ana ki te taiao. Ko t\u0101ku e mea atu ana ki t\u0113nei Whare, e hoa, ki roto i t\u0113nei pire ka haukoti i te mana i k\u014Drerohia ai e te Tiriti o Waitangi, i mahingia ai e \u014Dku m\u0101tua t\u016Bpuna ki roto i ng\u0101 tau tekau tata kua pahure ake nei, me te whakaaro ake he aha te take e p\u0113nei ana te K\u0101wanatanga? Ahakoa t\u0101 r\u0101tou tohetohe ki roto i te Whare e mea nei, \u201Coh, kei konei m\u0101tou m\u014D te katoa o Aotearoa\u201D, e hoa ki roto i t\u0113nei pire me w\u0101 r\u0101tou mahi kua kite atu kua kaupare ake i ng\u0101 mana t\u016B\u0101hua, an\u0101 i te mana o t\u014Dku iwi, o te iwi M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EKa t\u012Bkina ake e ahau t\u0113tahi atu k\u014Drero. E 35 tau ki muri, i tukuna atu e t\u014Dku tupuna, e T\u0101 H\u0113mi Henare, t\u0101na ker\u0113me ki mua i te aroaro o te Taraipiunara. E mea nei te k\u014Drero ko Wai 49. An\u0101 ko te tikanga o t\u0113nei ker\u0113me ki mua i te aroaro o te Taraipiunara kia werohia te K\u0101wanatanga i taua taima n\u0101 te mea i t\u016Bkinohia e te K\u0101wanatanga t\u014Dna awa o Taum\u0101rere, an\u0101 me te w\u0101hi ataahua rawa atu i Pipiri, ar\u0101 ko te Moana i Pikopiko-i-whiti.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u0100 te P\u0113puere e tae mai nei, ka haere atu ng\u0101 mema katoa o t\u0113nei Whare, an\u0101, ki te Moana i Pikopiko-i-whiti, ar\u0101 ko te Bay of Islands. Kei reira i hainatia ai te Tiriti o Waitangi, ko taku tono ki t\u0113nei K\u0101wanatanga, t\u0113n\u0101, haere mai ki runga i a au, ki runga o Waitangi. Ko reira totohe ai t\u0101tou i ng\u0101 kaupapa ki roto i t\u0113nei pire.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EE hoa, t\u012Bkina mai te mea hei whakap\u0101keh\u0101 ake i taku k\u014Drero, whakap\u0101keh\u0101 ake i taku k\u014Drero.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E[These are the statements of my forebears, of my ancestors, regarding the environment. What I am saying to this House, my friend, in this bill the authority that was spoken about in the Treaty of Waitangi is cut off, the efforts of my ancestors over the last 10 years, and the thought occurs why is the Government behaving like this? Despite their contention in the House that says, \u201COh, we are here for all of New Zealand\u201D, my friend, in this bill and their actions it can be seen that they are averting situational mana\u2014i.e., the mana of my people, the M\u0101ori people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI will take another quote. Thirty-five years ago, my ancestor, Sir James Henare, submitted his claim before the tribunal. It is known as Wai 49. And the purpose of this claim before the tribunal was to challenge the Government of the time because the Government had abused his river, the Taum\u0101rere, and that exceptionally beautifully place in Pipiri, i.e., Te Moana i Pikopiko-i-whiti.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EIn the coming February, all the members of this House will go, you see, to te Moana i Pikopiko-i-whiti, i.e., to the Bay of Islands. That is where the Treaty of Waitangi was signed. My appeal to the Government: come to me and my people, come to Waitangi. There we will debate the topics within this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EMy friend, grab the device to translate my speech, to translate my speech.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e84a93eeba4241a68e74590c9fea51e8\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s on the screen\u2014I\u2019m reading it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3a642bcbe494df586919040fba2193c\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: \u0100e, ka kite engari k\u012Bhai koe i kite; ka rongo engari k\u012Bhai koe i rongo. Koin\u0101 hoki t\u0101ku e mea atu ana me tiki atu te mea ki t\u014D taringa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EKa k\u012B mai taku tupuna i t\u016Bkinohia e te Karauna t\u014Dna awa o Taum\u0101rere, i t\u016Bkinohia e te Karauna t\u014Dna moana, te Moana i Pikopiko-i-whiti.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EN\u0101 ki roto i ng\u0101 tau tekau kua pahure ake nei, i tarai m\u0101tou o Ng\u0101ti Hine, o te ao M\u0101ori, te mahi ng\u0101tahi ki te K\u0101wanatanga kia whakatutukihia ng\u0101 k\u014Drero kei roto i te pire i whakamanahia e te R\u014Dp\u016B Reip\u0101 i n\u0101ini tata ake nei. An\u0101 ko te oranga o te taiao; an\u0101 ko Te Mana o te Wai; an\u0101 ko ng\u0101 mana whakahono \u0101-iwi. I rongo atu ahau i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero a te Minita, k\u012Bhai au e whakapono ki w\u0101na k\u014Drero ka whakamanahia aua t\u016B\u0101huatanga ki roto i ng\u0101 mahi kei mua i a t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EKua k\u014Drero mai \u014Dku hoamahi m\u014D te korenga o t\u0113tahi matakitetanga mai i t\u0113nei K\u0101wanatanga ka p\u0113hea ina ka whakakorengia t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 pire. N\u014D reira e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare, kua rongo atu ahau i ng\u0101 amuamu a w\u0113tahi me te h\u014Dh\u0101 ki t\u014Dku reo M\u0101ori. E hoa, ka k\u012B atu ahau ki t\u0113r\u0101 tangata i tupu mai taku reo M\u0101ori i t\u014Dku whenua. N\u014D te whenua p\u016B t\u014Dku reo M\u0101ori. Kia kaua t\u0113tahi e haukoti nei i t\u014Dku reo M\u0101ori ki roto i t\u0113nei whenua, ki runga an\u014D hoki i t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 whenua taurikura o te w\u0101 k\u0101inga nei.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EKoin\u0101 te take o t\u0113r\u0101 o ng\u0101 p\u0101ti, he k\u016Bare. He k\u016Bare ki ng\u0101 k\u014Drero tuku iho o t\u0113nei whenua, o \u014Dku m\u0101tua, o \u014Dku t\u016Bpuna. Ko te tono atu ki t\u0113r\u0101 mema me ng\u0101 mema katoa o t\u0113r\u0101 taha o te Whare, haere mai ki runga i a au, ki runga o Waitangi ki reira k\u014Drero ai t\u0101tou i te take. Haere mai ki te hui o R\u0101tana. K\u0101ore e kore ka tae mai. Haere mai, ko reira ka werohia an\u014D e te ao M\u0101ori t\u0113nei K\u0101wanatanga me w\u0101 r\u0101tou mahi haukoti i te mana motuhake a te M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EE tino whakah\u0113 nei m\u0101tou i t\u0113nei pire. E whakakorengia te pire i pahure ai t\u014D m\u0101tou K\u0101wanatanga. Tirohia ki ng\u0101 kupu, e te mema, tirohia ki ng\u0101 kupu \u201Cmana whakahono\u201D, tirohia ki ng\u0101 kupu \u201Cte oranga o te taiao\u201D, tirohia ki ng\u0101 kupu \u201CTe Mana o te Wai\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EKoin\u0101 te mate ki roto i t\u0113nei pire, ka mutu e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare, kua tohua nei e t\u0113nei K\u0101wanatanga t\u0101 r\u0101tou mahere ki roto i ng\u0101 tau e toru kei mua i a t\u0101tou. An\u0101 ko t\u0101ku e mea atu ana ki t\u014D t\u0101tou iwi M\u0101ori: kia mataara mai, kia rite mai; he pakanga kei te haere. Kua kite atu i ng\u0101 mahi kaupapa here a t\u0113nei K\u0101wanatanga, me t\u0101ku e mea atu ana kei konei m\u0101tou te ao M\u0101ori e whakakorengia, e t\u016B ana ki runga i t\u014D m\u0101tou ake mana motuhake, he mana motuhake n\u014D tua whakarere, ka kore t\u0113tahi e haukotingia.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EK\u012Bhai au i tautoko i t\u0113nei pire.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E[Yes, you see but you do not see; you hear but you do not hear. That is what I am saying, grab the device and put it to your ear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EMy ancestor said that the Crown abused his river of Taum\u0101rere, and the Crown abused his sea, Te Moana i Pikopiko-i-whiti.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ESo in the last 10 years, we, Ng\u0101ti Hine, and the entire M\u0101ori society, attempted to work together with the Government to bring to fruition the statements within the bill that was enacted by the Labour Party recently. That is, the health of the environment; that is, the power of water; that is, the iwi participation arrangements. I heard the statements of the Minister. I do not believe his statements that those features will be enacted in the activities that are before us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EMy colleagues have spoken about the lack of a single prediction from this Government about how things will go if this particular bill is repealed. So I have heard the complaints of some and their irritation with my M\u0101ori language. My friend, I say to that person that my M\u0101ori language grew out of my land. My M\u0101ori language is from right in the land. Let no one cut off my M\u0101ori language in this land, and also on this prosperous land of this home.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWe absolutely oppose this bill. It repeals the bill that our Government passed. To the member, look to the words, look to the words \u201Ciwi participation agreement\u201D, look to the words \u201Cthe health of the environment\u201D, look to the words \u201Cthe power of water\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThat is the issue of that party\u2014they are ignorant. They are ignorant of the history of this land, of my forebears, of my ancestors. The appeal to that member and all the members on that side of the House is come to me\u2014and my people\u2014come to Waitangi where we will discuss the issue. Come to the meeting at R\u0101tana. There is no doubt that you will come. Welcome, and there this Government will again be challenged by the M\u0101ori people, and also their actions to cut off the self-determination of the M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThat is the problem with this bill, and furthermore, this Government has signalled their plan for the three years that are before us. And so what I am saying to our M\u0101ori people: be vigilant, be ready; a battle is coming. We\u2019ve seen the policy activities of this Government, and what I am saying is that we are here, M\u0101ori society that is being dispensed with. We stand on our special authority, a special authority passed down to us from former times. It will never be cut off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI do not commend this bill.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022 data-id=\u002258b9d78f55c44e6490001d146dd7caff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002258b9d78f55c44e6490001d146dd7caff\u0022\u003EKATIE NIMON (National\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E I am thrilled to be speaking in the third reading of the Resource Management (Natural and Built Environment and Spatial Planning Repeal and Interim Fast-track Consenting) Bill. This bill, in its 1,300 pages, just added to the storm of reform on local government. Local government have lost their democracy in the Resource Management Act reform that the previous Government put forward. We must not waste a moment of time in getting this bill repealed. So with that, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220041a4a494754ea6a7493dd745c0098d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Resource Management (Natural and Built Environment and Spatial Planning Repeal and Interim Fast-track Consenting) Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000469\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b2272964eba042d6bfd0b1ee2da65e99\u0022\u003EEmployment Relations (Trial Periods) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ecfdd6924d784478857b14f7e7f02a8f\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022 data-id=\u00225c3e7ca9a7b34bd7925b20c728d949af\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c3e7ca9a7b34bd7925b20c728d949af\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E I present to the House a legislative statement on the Employment Relations (Trial Periods) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4540bb7a9064dbe92a419c970875dc6\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249d57a400c994a4981efbda1af0e5552\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Employment Relations (Trial Periods) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EThe Employment Relations (Trial Periods) Amendment Bill extends the availability of 90-day trials to all employers. It repeals the previous Government\u2019s policy of restricting this availability of trial periods to only small businesses. Currently, only employers with fewer than 20 employees can include a trial period of up to 90 days in their employment agreements. By extending the 90-day trial periods to all businesses, this will make a huge difference to the flexibility of the labour market, because large businesses employ around 72 percent of all employees across New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EThe bill is being debated under urgency because in this Government\u2019s coalition agreement for the first 100 days we want to restore business optimism, scrutiny, certainty, and confidence before Christmas. This Government has inherited a bleak economic outlook thanks to the previous Government\u2019s reckless spending and over-regulation. There is no time to waste in getting labour market settings right to ensure both businesses and workers can keep their heads above water. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EThe 90-day trial periods were introduced in 2009 for small businesses and were extended to all employers in 2011. Extending the 90-day trials was part of a package of reforms that\u2019s intended to reduce costs, support more effective and efficient processes, and improve workplace productivity and flexibility. In 2019, the previous Labour-led Government restricted the availability of trial periods to smaller employers\u2014those with fewer than 20 employees. This Government has heard the message loud and clear from businesses that they want 90-day trials back, and this is a Government that will deliver.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EWhether a business has two or 200 employees, bringing on any employee takes time, it takes money, it takes risk, and it\u2019s in the best interests of both the employer and the employee to have the right fit in the workplace. Getting the wrong person can have a detrimental impact on a business and the whole culture within a workplace. Employers have consistently highlighted that the costs associated with dismissing an employee and the risk of a personal grievance claim can make them reluctant to hire a new staff member. Apart from the costs of the dismissal process, retaining an employee who is a poor fit for a business can have a detrimental effect on the overall workplace as a whole. It will only take one worker who\u2019s got a poor attitude or simply doesn\u2019t have the right skills for the job to perform their duties to take down an otherwise very productive team.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EThe costs and risks associated with this dismissal process could lead to a labour market with fewer employment opportunities, particularly for those people who are doing their best to get a foot in the door. The costly dismissal processes can also make workplaces less productive. When businesses can only employ a certain number of people at a time because they are resource-constrained, having a worker who is a poor match for the job can mean that more suitable job candidates end up missing out when they could have been in the best interest of that company.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EI have heard from businesses time and time again that expanding the availability of the 90-day trials would be one of their top priorities when it comes to lifting unnecessary regulations that they face every day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EThis bill will help farmers. Unlike most businesses, farmers don\u2019t just offer prospective employees a job but they ask them to live on the property, because it\u2019s common for farmers to provide on-farm accommodation as part of their employment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003ERetailers have said that the 90-day trial has meant that employers have to be prepared to take a risk to bring on new staff members who may not be the best fit, and we need people who are given the opportunity to prove themselves\u2014people who have a chequered employment history or a criminal background may not be given the opportunity because they don\u2019t have that ability for their business owners to take a chance. BusinessNZ identified that reinstating the 90-day trials was an election priority, and the Employment and Manufacturers Association did as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EThis bill is intended to encourage employers to take on new staff by reducing risk in their hiring process. It\u2019s particularly the case when employers are considering employing someone who doesn\u2019t tick all the boxes. They might not have the right skills, they might not have the right experience, but they might have the right attitude, and this is a Government that says we should give them a go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EWorkers who are just starting out in their career and they\u2019ve had a break from working or they\u2019re looking for a change will benefit from this bill. Workers that might be considered risky will benefit from this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EStarting a business is incredibly brave. Taking on employees is incredibly brave. This bill will provide more flexibility in the labour market, which is good for both employers and employees. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u002247e30f0bac0e442a8148ed68380f934c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247e30f0bac0e442a8148ed68380f934c\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Wow! Here we are, under urgency, with another week of this Government taking New Zealand backwards, and another bill attacking working people. I note the Minister can\u2019t even speak for her full allocated time, even though we are in urgency and there\u2019s no select committee process, and I have sympathy for the Minister because there is absolutely nothing to back up this policy that she is putting though to extend trial periods. Her own officials, in the regulatory impact statement (RIS)\u2014and I do commend the officials for actually producing one in relation to this bill\u2014say, \u201CWhat shall we do? Should we extend this? No. We should stick with the status quo.\u201D That\u2019s what it says in the RIS produced by the Minister\u2019s own officials. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo what could the possible reason be for doing this and for extending this policy? Is there evidence that it actually does increase hiring? Is there evidence that it makes it easier for people to actually get work or hire people? No. The evidence says exactly the opposite, and this isn\u2019t my evidence. This isn\u2019t trade union evidence. This is evidence commissioned by Treasury. Treasury says that it doesn\u2019t make a difference, so why are we doing this? The only thing I can come up with is that this Government hates working people; you hate working people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThis is the second bill in two weeks to go under urgency that makes absolutely no difference in benefits to working people. It may have some benefits in the sense of employers not wanting to go through fair processes to actually dismiss employees, which is totally available under New Zealand law. If you have an issue with performance or if you have an issue with conduct, you can go through a fair process and that employee can be dismissed in New Zealand. That can already happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo I was interested to read on the cover of The Post this week that the Minister of Finance said that she believes in leadership and that it\u2019s important to take New Zealanders with her, and I ask this Government: which New Zealanders are they taking with them? Not working people, for sure. The first thing they did through urgency was change the Reserve Bank mandate to take the importance off jobs. The next thing they did was repeal fair pay agreements\u2014attacking wages of working people, and conditions. Another thing that they did in their second week in Government: attacking jobs again. This Government is not the Government for working people. It is taking their rights away with every single breath it takes for absolutely no benefit to the economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EIf you look at this research conducted and commissioned by the Treasury, you will see that there is absolutely no benefit, on a macro scale, of this policy to the economy. It doesn\u2019t increase hiring, it doesn\u2019t increase the number of people that are taken on, and it doesn\u2019t make things better for people who are vulnerable. The only thing it does is increase the likelihood of injustice for people who are engaged in work to be dismissed unfairly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EIt is a shame and a travesty on this Government that they would, under urgency, decide to bring through a bill to this Parliament that doesn\u2019t help employers\u2014it doesn\u2019t\u2014and it doesn\u2019t help people that are looking for work. It just extends a policy which is shown in evidence not to work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard again and again that this Government, for some reason, doesn\u2019t need to have evidence or arguments to back up this policy, and we\u2019ve seen the Minister not able to articulate that over her full call, because there just isn\u2019t anything to back that up. I would say to the members opposite that electoral mandates do not excuse bad lawmaking. Electoral mandates do not excuse bad lawmaking, and this is bad lawmaking. There is no select committee process. There is no ability for New Zealanders, who have strong feelings about trial periods, to be able to submit to the select committee process and tell you that impact that it would have on their lives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EActually, I won\u2019t have time to go through it in the first reading, but I have got examples that have been proactively sent to me by members of the public wanting to make a submission on this piece of legislation and not being able to. I\u2019ve examples of people emailing me and saying, \u201CWhen will the select committee process be, Camilla?\u201D, and I have had to say to them, \u201CUnfortunately, the Government that has been elected has decided that they do not want to hear from you. Your views that you would normally be able to expect in a normal select committee process are not valid.\u201D I think this Government should be ashamed of that because this is a ridiculous, pointless piece of legislation that just makes it more unfair for people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EAs we have seen, and as the Minister went through, it was brought in in 2009, when it was 20 employees; in 2011, it was all employees; in 2019, it was back to 20; and in 2023, it is back to all employees. There is no clarity and no purpose for this bad law, and I do not commend it to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002217fac144f4e542e5bcefa0be4e68a839\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002217fac144f4e542e5bcefa0be4e68a839\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The time has come for me to leave the Chair. The House will resume at 2 p.m. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224630206b3e544160a127c1ec6f2d4710\u0022\u003ESpeaker\u2019s Rulings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221d2cf6b181cb4caa866b1efdf14765f6\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u2014Question No. 2, 19 December 2023\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9894b50c51444158b76fe818e622a30\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9894b50c51444158b76fe818e622a30\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, I\u2019ve reviewed the exchange that occurred during question No. 2 yesterday, and the allegation that family members were brought into debate. At one point during the question, I said \u201CAll I\u2019m saying is that it has been a fairly longstanding convention in this House not to bring family members into the debate.\u201D I think most members would agree with that. On review of the footage and reading the Hansard, it\u2019s clear to me that family came into the debate by way of an answer. I\u2019ve looked at all the supplementary questions that were asked of the Prime Minister and, despite points of order to the contrary, they were all in order. I would note that the answer to the primary question did open things up to a much more political exchange. Any suggestion that the Leader of the Opposition brought family into the debate is wrong. It was done only by way of answer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI unreservedly apologise to the Leader of the Opposition, the Rt Hon Chris Hipkins, for any implication to the contrary from my intervention quoted above. I will be more vigilant in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222eb986c0894c4ddaac70f53416d308f9\u0022\u003EUrgent Debates\u2014Applications Submitted during Urgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022fde341e2c296436c96286c1d5b59ef83\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fde341e2c296436c96286c1d5b59ef83\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve had a request for an urgent debate from the Hon Grant Robertson seeking to debate, under Standing Order 399, the Government\u2019s mini-Budget. It\u2019s not generally possible to hold an urgent debate during urgency. That is because an urgent matter is part of general business held at the start of a sitting day\u2014Standing Order 66(1). Until urgency ends and the House adjourns, it\u2019s considered to be a continuous sitting day. We won\u2019t have any more general business until we have a new sitting day. Therefore, there is no opportunity to consider an application for an urgent debate at present. The only way to hold an urgent debate would be for the member to seek leave of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022af08448eefa24e62845f6f409b80f80a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af08448eefa24e62845f6f409b80f80a\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. I seek leave of the House for an urgent debate to be held on the Government\u2019s mini-Budget immediately following question time, using the allocation of calls normally allocated for an urgent debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022e49f08ca6a484633b1fe0970007a9ad7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e49f08ca6a484633b1fe0970007a9ad7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022239afbf30eae4b08b31756391bab2b35\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f232edd4e0545cc88730ede79318e15\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00221b4f4b24e5d4480f9804f9c249e21663\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b4f4b24e5d4480f9804f9c249e21663\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m on my feet, though.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df7a9152f1ec47f99723108a0ca06217\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it\u2019s a point\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002223966eeddc9b41ff964844980b2a270f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002223966eeddc9b41ff964844980b2a270f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. When I\u2019m on my feet, you can\u2019t do anything. I\u2019m in total control here. Have a seat. Take a seat. [Rt Hon Winston Peters sits down] Right\u2014I\u2019ll sit down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022ebb144449e764a2a8b95cc5ab2af7b2d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ebb144449e764a2a8b95cc5ab2af7b2d\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Deputy Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E These are early days, Mr Speaker. You\u2019re quite right, but, logically, if you didn\u2019t sit down, I couldn\u2019t have my point of order. My point of order is very simple, and I couldn\u2019t hear very clearly, but I thought I heard some people from the Labour Party saying no as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00225dce0bda897f4270950f66acc360c644\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225dce0bda897f4270950f66acc360c644\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order. It\u2019s not at all helpful to the order of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207d2373755b548f4ac16cd40482c1851\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s also not true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002245973e7725a34805bbf54e145131cef0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245973e7725a34805bbf54e145131cef0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Whether or not it\u2019s true is something that the House itself will determine, but I would very much doubt that it is the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229dc04707168449f6a8cfe1d33193c99f\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of BILLS\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022747684e9e3944921bab3da05e29deb0f\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of BILLS\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec288aa7b5064597a2914b5297a83665\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec288aa7b5064597a2914b5297a83665\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: In accordance with a determination of the Business Committee, there is a paper for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef3c40fa92294dc482b23ed768438d94\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef3c40fa92294dc482b23ed768438d94\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: Half Year Economic and Fiscal Update 2023.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00222169d061b4a64eda84e4a598a76034f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222169d061b4a64eda84e4a598a76034f8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That paper is published under the authority of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d81c96d4189143c3bf9290d166fa7059\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226af27656924e4441b0ef4fa350e67d46\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ed8c58c53ed14844bb235f3610cec579\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022 data-id=\u0022470820b2b08e4b7981662304d6ddcd23\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022470820b2b08e4b7981662304d6ddcd23\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Does he stand by his statement on the disestablishment of Te Aka Whai Ora, \u201CMy dream is to devolve decision making and funding and give to mana motuhake, as close to the home and hap\u016B as possible\u201D; if so, what structure and funding models will he use to achieve it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3cba6155e7948f796402ad6f9a2554a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3cba6155e7948f796402ad6f9a2554a\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I stand by my statement. The dream is to lift mostly every health metric for M\u0101ori. I\u2019m still working with my officials on how this will look and am excited to work collaboratively with our coalition partners to ensure that we achieve better health outcomes for all New Zealanders. That is because there is one thing we can all agree on: New Zealanders are suffering from six years of broken promises and misguidance from the previous Labour Government. The latest clinical performance metrics, released yesterday, show that M\u0101ori and all New Zealanders are suffering, with longer wait times in the emergency department, for their specialist assessment, amongst many other issues. We believe the devolution of decision making and funding to those on the front lines will help drive better health outcomes and that the hap\u016B probably know what\u2019s best for their communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264bd2cedda214cba9360984ceb777aa0\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: What assurances can he give, if any, that the M\u0101ori health commissioning budget for Te Aka Whai Ora will stay ring-fenced for M\u0101ori health providers at the same level of funding currently in place?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c99886c9a4a540f180e2ecde9f29bf8d\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI\u003C/span\u003E: The leader has already given indications that funding that is appropriated for M\u0101ori health will remain with M\u0101ori health.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022faf3bd95b59f4cfaa85f1b432bccfbe9\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: How will he ensure that the recommendations of the Wai 2575 M\u0101ori health claim are implemented in the new M\u0101ori health structure and investment model?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022298cbd2c8a764f72971008cb2fd9fa27\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI\u003C/span\u003E: We seek to improve M\u0101ori health outcomes\u2014which is also the endeavour of the Wai claim\u2014and we have every intention of doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222e00f8511b14032abd7c673ffffb733\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: What will now be the monitoring mechanism to ensure accountability for M\u0101ori health outcomes as achieved by Te Whatu Ora?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d14a2026c133476c9ddcf1a09b7a77e3\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI\u003C/span\u003E: We could contend whether that was truly achieved by Te Aka Whai Ora, but we are working through structural mechanisms to make sure that there is monitoring in place for M\u0101ori health outcomes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fdb03fdef9449cda8e633ef781b39be\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: What specific decisions has the Government made on baseline funding, delegations, and the role of iwi M\u0101ori partnership boards under the new system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280b6013063144238992a8fc863c51623\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re working through appropriate structures and delegations for how we can improve M\u0101ori health outcomes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ecfa2f2b4317429fa647ebd526126b0d\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022 data-id=\u00221c112da974f24c60b1d95fd84a59b7d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221c112da974f24c60b1d95fd84a59b7d1\u0022\u003ENANCY LU (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What does the Half Year Economic and Fiscal Update say about the state of the New Zealand economy, and what steps is the Government taking to respond?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4b2ece1bb5c40d980248463a2fce9c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4b2ece1bb5c40d980248463a2fce9c0\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Our Government has inherited challenging economic and fiscal conditions. Inflation and interest rates remain high, the economy is contracting, and unemployment is beginning to rise. The forecast, or so-called surplus, in 2026-27 has been eroded to a wafer-thin $140 million. Treasury has identified $7.2 billion of fiscal cliffs, although we expect that figure to grow in the coming weeks and months. In response to the cost of living crisis, Kiwis have tightened their belts. Today, the Government tightens ours. My message to Kiwis is that after six years of economic mismanagement, our Government is presenting a new chapter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224737c2f4ea9545558044ba150e62fa59\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. Yesterday, and on a number of occasions last week, you warned Ministers about using Government questions to make commentary or to attack the Opposition. Now, particularly in light of the Opposition being unable to debate this today because the Government declined leave, I think we should be particularly vigilant about that with this question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287be87a51cb142b4af9d4decb138c915\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Question time is a time for the Government to be accountable for itself, and answers should not refer to what are perceived political failings of any other parties in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb152f1dee014e1dacefe23d56910f25\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. With respect, this is meant to be a debating chamber, where the issues of the day should be discussed and argued, not some antiseptic Chrysler ad. It is about real issues\u2014in this case, who\u2019s responsible for them\u2014and to think that an Opposition, who arrived there only a few weeks ago and who were in control, don\u2019t want to have their record examined belies democracy and question time itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e1765d0ce14435c90daa3167fca4f0f\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: We can\u2019t have a debate\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f66a182be90f471883398b8f24828193\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you can have a debate on those matters, and we knew you were never going to get an urgent debate\u2014we knew you\u2019d try\u2014because inexperience is what you were famous for. But the fact is that this matter will be discussed next year as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022474f86a9f6d643278773daf0b181972e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: So I am bound by Speakers\u2019 ruling 181/3. I am simply saying that there are lots of ways you can say things without it being an open attack.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022963e3b9f069e4df6bfb34bef4caf964e\u0022\u003ENancy Lu\u003C/span\u003E: What economic challenges are outlined in the half-year update?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022413a6f9d21b14085bd5887b1d38ee8c7\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: As high interest rates bite, the economy is set to stall and unemployment is set to rise. Inflation is expected to finally come back into the target range in the second half of next year but will remain a challenge in coming months. That\u2019s why our Government is moving quickly to get inflation back under control, by getting Government spending under control with a programme of fiscal sustainability and unshackling businesses from the red tape that has been slowing them down. There is much more to do on rebuilding New Zealand\u2019s economic engine, but today\u2019s announcements are a good start.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233266f48e9424d5593c4e4ec58975cb9\u0022\u003ENancy Lu\u003C/span\u003E: What fiscal challenges are presented in the half-year update?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f51dbb45ca245869698945d3ed9095a\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Government spending this year is around $15 billion higher than forecast just two years ago. That\u2019s the product of loose fiscal policy, with spending vastly outstripping any growth in revenue. The results of this, if left unchecked, are more debt, more inflation, and a delayed return to surplus. Looking forward to next year, the Government faces at least $7.2 billion of fiscal cliffs, with funding for a number of initiatives set to expire. That is why we are kicking off a fiscal sustainability programme to ensure New Zealanders can have confidence that their money is being spent responsibly and so that we can deliver effective and efficient services for them to rely on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222429aaf19ebb4be28c4328f63f07a317\u0022\u003ENancy Lu\u003C/span\u003E: What savings have been finalised by the Government to date?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224df777d572964d00a34e0771e32e9b4f\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Since being sworn in just a couple of weeks ago, the Government has finalised $7.5 billion worth of savings and revenue initiatives, which were announced earlier today. Those savings reflect a series of decisions made by Cabinet to stop work on broken programmes like light rail and Lake Onslow but also to lock in the reprioritisations required to deliver tax relief next year. After years of watching Government grow and grow and grow, with little positive impact for real people, our Government is reining in wasteful spending so New Zealanders can keep more of what they earn.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f33909b73294397baa8e1a4f76878b9\u0022\u003ENancy Lu\u003C/span\u003E: What future steps is the Government taking to restore fiscal discipline? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022317b4c147c70455ea01cabe6c7680155\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Fiscal sustainability isn\u2019t a one-off exercise; it\u2019s about delivering a long-term culture of discipline and responsibility. That\u2019s why we are setting out more savings to be delivered heading into the Budget next year, with an initial baseline exercise delivering an annual savings of $1.5 billion and further work on new revenue measures and other efficiencies from Government programmes. In 2017, the outgoing Government inherited much better conditions than we are facing. Today, we face high inflation, high interest rates, large deficits, a recessionary economy, and rising unemployment. This is the result of poor economic management, and it\u2019s why we are so committed to getting the books back on track.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022283b16912ccb446fbcd26e0068494db7\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that in the half-year economic update, unemployment is projected to peak at 5.2 percent\u2014lower than had been projected at the pre-election fiscal update? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8f5335472d448969521c48f2423d002\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The member is correct. However, unemployment is rising from where it is today, according to these forecasts, and I am conscious\u2014and I hope the member is conscious\u2014that that percentage represents real people who, due to the state of our economy, are set to not have jobs. That is of concern to me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b039b17229d245bc944ad3c8179bed9f\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that the Treasury, on page 6 of the Half Year Economic and Fiscal Update, have indicated that issues such as tax revenue declining represents a risk to whether or not the Government\u2019s decisions will be fiscally neutral, and, in fact, this means New Zealanders may see a worse economic outlook as a result of her tax cuts? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e435b30e1ad84d55bcd9c59ba0c3b8ff\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The member can be assured that Treasury knows the greatest risk to the Government\u2019s book is a big-spending, ineffective Government, and that chapter has closed. That is why the Treasury, on page 6, state that it is anticipated that under this new coalition Government, \u201Conce combined with the other signalled commitments in the Mini Budget\u201D\u2014i.e., our tax plans\u2014\u201C[that are] expected to be agreed in the future, the overall impact would be broadly neutral over the forecast period.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9bb5d41482b43628ac18758c4b612d0\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that the paragraph after the one she just read out said that \u201COnce the Mini Budget decisions and other commitments are reflected into the forecasts, there will be changes in the composition of some key indicators \u2026 there is a risk that once decisions are fully reflected into the economic and fiscal forecasts, the overall fiscal impacts may not be neutral\u201D? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022faaf205c3f7b41329687ae97bc3fe9fa\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: That is why we are working to ensure that our tax package is neutral, and I do have to say that being lectured by someone who broke every spending limit they ever set themselves\u2014I can\u2019t really take it that seriously. Given the state that member left the Government books in, he should stop lecturing about fiscal responsibility. Not only will we spend better but New Zealanders will have more money in their bank accounts, and we\u2019ll be proud to deliver. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fac95fbd0ba540878c44c071626d793f\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Could I ask the Minister of Finance as to whether she\u2019s concerned about the potential serious underlying unemployment as a result of the colossal figure of 128,000 immigrants being brought into this country at the end of October this year by the Labour Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c8075fab26d49a2942e0e8fab96ed6c\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: I have two concerns. The first concern is that after a period of extremely restrictive immigration settings, the Government then moved so swiftly to reopen immigration settings that it has failed to put in place adequate controls, and we\u2019ve seen that with the evidence of migrant exploitation and we are seeing that we are currently experiencing levels of immigration that are unsustainable. That is why the Minister of Immigration is looking very carefully at the ill-disciplined systems that were left to her by the outgoing Minister. I also have another concern\u2014if you\u2019ll let me, Mr Speaker\u2014and that is that the previous Government allowed the jobseeker numbers to grow so significantly, even during a period of low unemployment, and our Government is committed to getting more people from welfare into work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225d49bbc5191e4888a21b136a4703c9d0\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u002263d959ce570d40aca8feb6740e68fca4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263d959ce570d40aca8feb6740e68fca4\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Acting Prime Minister: Does he stand by all his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u00220844d2e301cf44b1ba63e4c344032d2e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220844d2e301cf44b1ba63e4c344032d2e\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Acting Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E In the context in which they were made, and within the facts known at the time, most definitely yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af19d29f9542400ea6dbbaa32ad1f7a3\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with the Prime Minister that he is not hung up on the use of the name \u201CK\u0101inga Ora\u201D, or does he agree with the National - New Zealand First coalition agreement that says, \u201CAll public service departments have their primary name in English except for those specifically related to M\u0101ori.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb032ae49baf4c7c8fd183005afaa241\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: On this side of the House, we don\u2019t have hang-ups\u2014that\u2019s number one. The second thing is we admit the majesty of the M\u0101ori New Zealand language, and it\u2019s an intellectual muscle-builder for a young person and we\u2019ve encouraged it from the time we arrived in Parliament, some of us. But that said, community housing, or housing the community, has become not that; it\u2019s become some woke virtue-signalling thing where people don\u2019t get housed, and where housing displacement\u2014or people waiting for houses\u2014went up by a massive 33 percent. So we want delivery on policy, not virtue signalling any longer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d1cbfcf4502493195b452c1b461d048\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with Chris Bishop that \u201CK\u0101inga Ora is known as \u2018K\u0101inga Ora - Homes and Communities\u2019, I don\u2019t know a single person who calls it \u2018Homes and Communities\u2019\u201D, and is that within the spirit of the National - New Zealand First coalition agreement that all Public Service departments have their primary name in English except for those specifically related to M\u0101ori?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bf6bd9c581f44608e8a45edf4ca0a72\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Mr Bishop was saying something terribly honest, and everybody understands it, and everybody can sympathise with it because the essence of all communications is understanding and comprehension, excepting over there [points to Opposition benches]. They\u2019d rather virtue signal so that most people don\u2019t know. I can tell you now that when it comes to Waka Kotahi, or K\u0101inga Ora for that matter, people are concerned about getting a safe, affordable house. They want to get roads that are tarsealed and potholes that are fixed up, not some virtue-signalling thing which has certain people over there thinking that that\u2019s what people want for public policy. Ordinary, hard-working New Zealanders can expect something better. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227aa90a35a06a434c9b6b3aa729fd23ec\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with Winston Peters, \u201CThe announcement today that New Zealanders will now have a direct pathway to citizenship in Australia is a monumental success that should be celebrated and congratulated\u201D, or does he agree with David Seymour, \u201CActually, we just got played by the Aussies. They\u2019ve done a raid on New Zealand talent\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd99909b559f4603bc5eabfecd5077b2\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I have to say that\u2014not by any sense of bias\u2014I prefer the first comment, because every now and again, even a fool can get it right. Mr Hipkins went over there and spoke to \u201CAlbo\u201D\u2014Mr Hipkins went over to there and saw \u201CAlbo\u201D and \u201CAlbo\u201D saw the reasonableness of our complaint. And it arose yesterday, when it came out that someone who left this country at two years of age was sent back here as a 501\u2014that\u2019s wrong. But in the big picture, Mr Seymour was right when he said this, because he could have expected two Labour Ministers across the Tasman to have got so much more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c401d06fe5094d6ca7b6ee1dd0caf33d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Government still intend to raise $170 million for its tax cuts by taxing offshore gambling, or does he agree with the 2023 New Zealand First manifesto that that\u2019s just not credible?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229866bd043444827bf5b07df71b93fc2\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: The purpose of good governance\u2014and Ministers over here understand that\u2014is to ask good questions and keep on asking good questions and get the right answer. That manifesto was setting out some very good questions\u2014I\u2019m still waiting for the answer\u2014and I admit the possibility\u2014[Interruption] No, no, because we\u2019ve been in business and know how business works, we don\u2019t act like that\u2014laugh and scoff and jeer. They couldn\u2019t run a school tuck shop. In our case, we ask good questions and we\u2019re still waiting for the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d710e4c577e84705a8b2d41dd442c1fc\u0022\u003ETama Potaka\u003C/span\u003E: In relation to K\u0101inga Ora, is the Acting Prime Minister aware that the number of families on the social housing wait-list went from 5,000 to over 25,000 under the recent Labour leadership?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a545a2b50dd64035af6aa6e7aef04cf3\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Could I say to the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs, I\u2019m dreadfully saddened to have to confirm that, but that is what happens, and it shows you the difference between a once-great party that came into this country way back in the 1930s and started building houses because they had practical people in Parliament who knew what poverty tasted and felt like, coming out of the Depression. Yet this modern version has come in with these virtue-signalling policies and done the very worst for M\u0101ori, and they stand there and claim to be the paramount voice for M\u0101ori today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df8e5aff491f45d0997b9c344eaab6ae\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with that noted economic commentator Winston Peters that the National Government\u2019s tax plan, \u201Cthey\u2019re going to make all this money, but every front-line economist has said, \u2018Hang on, you\u2019ve got a hole of $500 million a year.\u2019 That\u2019s a hole of $2.1 billion over four years. How can you pay for your tax cuts?\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210098c9b2dbf4526ac4274e9799e07a5\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: The marvellous thing about consultative politics is that you learn things and, when you\u2019ve had that discussion, you find a solution\u2014and the Minister of Finance has already found it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227243b200cb2742c8aa665e53a52b7bf5\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s that? Smoking?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022509b1e1d1d6d43ca9f28bdc492e0812d\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: No\u2014no. Now, see, if he wants to talk about smoking and the M\u0101ori voice, they have taken from M\u0101ori and Pasifika in the last 12 years\u2014[Interruption] Listen up. No, no, no. Can I just say, I know what my\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e716d08ab8144dfb9a338bbc53ad2b7\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: What did your iwi say?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8063b8c138f4ad98a45cf2aad43ee9a\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Excuse me, don\u2019t tell me about my iwi; I started it. The Ng\u0101tiwai Land Retention Committee\u2014[Interruption]. Listen up, you\u2014the Ng\u0101tiwai Land Retention Committee was started by a guy called Winston Peters in 1974-75. Right here, right now, you\u2019re looking at the founder. So don\u2019t preach to me about that. Now, if you want to talk about M\u0101ori and smoking\u2014[Interruption]. No, no\u2014I know that you\u2019ve got no familiarity with the marae, but shouting won\u2019t help you. I\u2019ve got the microphone and I\u2019ve got plenty patience, OK? I haven\u2019t finished yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2ceca2f4c9b47c1ac62384ae12883eb\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You may not think you\u2019ve finished, but I do. And I don\u2019t mean that in terms of your career.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022488b96ea90db4038b8d2189dc9ce06bc\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much. Can I carry on now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d221ee09fba4892b89368ee7fb522e5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259f54482246143259b404ac571628a0a\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. With respect, Mr Speaker, they were saying something coarse. And everybody\u2019s entitled to interject now and again, but a screaming, volatile mass like we heard over there is not what Parliament looks like. I respect their right to interject\u2014I think it\u2019s exciting and it makes exhilarating these debates\u2014but that sort of clownish, cacophonic behaviour doesn\u2019t work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f38ea3e257a4f208b8dea584955acaf\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Acting Prime Minister agree with Winston Peters, \u201CSadly, the spokesperson for the National Party said, \u2018If I don\u2019t give you a tax cut, I\u2019m going to resign\u2019. Wow\u2014could be a chance to have a decent Minister of Finance with a bit of experience.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e0dc9067d5444dd8e436cc3e9525729\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: But the member of Parliament and now finance Minister said that, is giving us a tax cut\u2014get used to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ebe3f6bf5da74253996135476a121138\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u002222d09db5a9924cdfb8e48b566e169da7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002222d09db5a9924cdfb8e48b566e169da7\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does she stand by the principle in the Government\u2019s coalition agreements that \u201Cdecisions will be based on data and evidence\u201D, including for economic and fiscal policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u002208797ae8955d459581044c342389f98b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208797ae8955d459581044c342389f98b\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ca9e92168c646d0a30186dba71d4c03\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Has she seen any data or evidence that shows that increasing bus fares for the lowest earning New Zealanders will cut their living costs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022780c4cd4470145748dd15d29e432e6af\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: I am aware of evidence that shows that the biggest barrier to people choosing public transport is the reliability and frequency of public transport. Therefore, ours is a Government that will continue to invest in public transport infrastructure to ensure public transport is reliable and available. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225335dd9170af413f8f717a0c6e5fb185\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Has she seen any data or evidence that shows that increasing bus fares for the lowest earning New Zealanders will cut their living costs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c39345d03990412587e4385d6d60e976\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen evidence that the living costs of lower income New Zealanders are based on a range of things. This includes their incomes and whether they are growing and how highly taxed those incomes are. This is why our Government is committed to lower taxes for middle and lower income New Zealanders. Their living costs are also affected by the inflation rate, which has been allowed to be out of control for the last 2\u00BD years, which is why our commitment to fiscal discipline will aid in bringing inflation under control. Their living costs are affected by a range of factors, and our Government is committed to reducing their cost of living. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261ae22c5e7c14908ac149ee14c8cecae\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: What data and evidence has she seen about children\u2019s ability to learn the basics brilliantly if they are hungry because the school lunch programme has been cut?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229673023780164ac684fea9c5a20601f9\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, obviously I\u2019m not the Minister of Education, but I understand that the evidence to suggest that the school lunch programme has in any way increased literacy or numeracy achievement is extremely limited indeed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224737c8726ac94f7c8bd94ab51d8f2f40\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: What data and evidence has she seen that shows that renters can expect to see their rents decrease as a result of the changes to the brightline test?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c2fd1be384c4070a6bd52c0bdb04ab7\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: It is demonstrably evident that if the costs we place on landlords are reduced, then they will have fewer costs that they need to meet through the rents that they charge.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022afa75320d9524136b5970e693f35dbf7\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022adffc35c4ea6400ebb7145ada2945143\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022adffc35c4ea6400ebb7145ada2945143\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does she stand by all of the fiscal and economic commitments made in the coalition agreements signed by National, New Zealand First, and ACT?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u00229fcd6f8a82f049558f6d98b7fa56caf0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229fcd6f8a82f049558f6d98b7fa56caf0\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, subject to final consideration and decision making by Cabinet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c70e830dc254bf7bb07c799c36906f0\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: How, specifically, will the tax cut programme in the coalition agreements be funded?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229764e05cc6104cffa78b1a79e7d24f97\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The tax relief that our Government will deliver next year will be funded through a range of savings, reprioritisations, and new revenue measures. We announced a down payment, today, of $7.5 billion worth of savings we have already booked. The next step is a baseline savings exercise to reduce the back-office and consultancy spending of Government departments, and to drive more efficiency from Government programmes. We\u2019re also initiating full cost recovery for immigration levies, enhancing the audit capabilities of IRD, and taxing online casinos.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246fc57b6c0684b2894a84235ea51df8c\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Is it correct that the funding arrangements for tax cuts were not in the mini-Budget as Nicola Willis promised throughout the election campaign?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e156d15ad9ad4f6aa805b82d022cad9b\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: It is correct that the mini-Budget contained $7.5 billion worth of savings, as well as concrete actions to deliver the next range of savings that will support tax relief. It\u2019s also clear that under the former Minister\u2019s watch\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff63e3bd30c84602bf094eb6028b25fd\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, right. We\u2019re moving into something you\u2019re not responsible for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd275c5c4c094c22b6b42b7fd3fdd134\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014we had spending go up, up, up; tax go up, up, up; and very little delivered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022505e09c967314069afffe233b7a336ee\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Can, then, the Minister confirm that landlords and speculators can confirm that they have a tax cut, but New Zealanders, who she promised income tax cuts to, are none the wiser today about how they\u2019ll be paid for, what they\u2019ll be, or even when they\u2019ll get them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c5241a3b58443edbfb9dfa8793e6f27\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I disagree with a number of characterisations in the member\u2019s question. But New Zealanders should listen up: at this mini-Budget, we are bringing not just economic responsibility back, but we are giving them the guarantee that next year they will get income tax relief.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff984de3146a4caa9794f6a6f5492834\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister of Finance confirm that she\u2019s part of a coalition Government where all three parties are wholly committed to delivering the levels of tax relief to the people promised it, in the time frame it was promised by her all along; however, the Government is also taking advice on how to more effectively and efficiently do so, and that taking advice and considering different perspectives is a strength, not a weakness?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225982fa6f906745de88018894bf9fc218\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right. And I would put to the member: a way of summarising that is what New Zealanders care about is the size of the sausage, not how it\u2019s delivered. And how we will deliver it\u2014[Interruption] It\u2019s been a year of bad quotes from me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6289968d3e44c8db90ef5fc25610399\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Talking about a right sausage, did she hear Mr Robertson\u2019s interjection when he shouted out, \u201CYou\u2019re not responsible for it\u201D; and can she confirm that she\u2019s not responsible for his messes, and isn\u2019t she grateful for that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abe4f16f280d47d18be055485acd8163\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: With respect to the House, I think, enough talk of messes, sausages, and holes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022709b67cdb0c34184b69796d4d92a535c\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022 data-id=\u002238e7998fdd764f3c800faf829afb22f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002238e7998fdd764f3c800faf829afb22f2\u0022\u003EDr CARLOS CHEUNG (National\u2014Mt Roskill)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What recent reports has he received on the performance of the health system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u002227925abcdf3246698cf1f333524a9c0e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227925abcdf3246698cf1f333524a9c0e\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E The latest clinical performance metrics report released by Health New Zealand yesterday shows the amount of people waiting more than four months for a first specialist assessment, nationally, has grown enormously from 35,863 in September\u00A02022 to 59,817 in September 2023. That is a 66.79 percent increase in just 12 months. Meanwhile, emergency department (ED) wait times have also deteriorated with only 67.6 percent of those presenting to ED being seen in under six hours. We will work with the sector to improve this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266d27d3dde1c43bab9a0d7271649429e\u0022\u003EDr Carlos Cheung\u003C/span\u003E: What steps is the Minister taking to tackle the ongoing challenges around the 2020 health reforms?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022179ef8cf561d4693a2afdc13ea068aef\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI\u003C/span\u003E: Yesterday I announced my plans to appoint a Crown observer to Health New Zealand. This was a carefully considered decision but is necessary to work with the sector to reset a clear focus on health outcomes and to improve our health system. We will be a Government of outcomes and tackle the ongoing challenges left over from Labour\u2019s 2022 reforms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258c241d466d84538b7c93d58d905b5f5\u0022\u003EDr Carlos Cheung\u003C/span\u003E: What action will this Government take to improve the health outcome for all New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227c98effe9d74e8fadf1f0c2cb1814f4\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI\u003C/span\u003E: This Government will take many actions to improve health outcomes for all New Zealanders. The 2022 health reforms were proclaimed by previous Ministers as providing better health results, but all that they achieved was more money spent and more bureaucracy while delivering longer waiting times, dire workforce shortages, and worse outcomes for all. That is why, amongst other things, we will be setting clear health targets in the new year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022358c0c6d7b1d401b8d05913681f70951\u0022\u003EDr Carlos Cheung\u003C/span\u003E: What benefits will the introduction of health targets have for New Zealanders? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022249493c6ac4e47f685a8fd9a0200b75c\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI\u003C/span\u003E: As we have seen through the clinical performance metrics and many other measures, the past six years have caused an obvious deterioration in our healthcare system, despite the hard work of the board and our health workforce. The introduction of clear targets will help change that. We will deliver better health outcomes for all New Zealanders; put simply, we agree with clinicians that health targets save lives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8780da9830a4448b74330f97478d23d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, OK, that\u2019s great, but don\u2019t use question time to attack previous Governments\u2014pretty simple.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f6960e6279524e658913ef83016b446a\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Immigration\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u00227c052e228dec4397815e04c6d17603d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c052e228dec4397815e04c6d17603d8\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Immigration: What is the Government doing to enable people living in New Zealand to bring family members here from Gaza?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268c8c63e176144f69aaeb0b2b9ebb728\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve been advised that this answer might be a little longer. It is an important matter, so please proceed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u0022be8cfd9813e742749e44f2a12bc82823\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be8cfd9813e742749e44f2a12bc82823\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand is deeply distressed by the escalating crisis and loss of life in Gaza. In my capacity as immigration Minister, I can confirm that we are continuing to monitor the situation closely, along with our partners. I have been advised that the steps Immigration New Zealand has taken related to the Gaza conflict are to centralise applications into one office, prioritise those visa applications, and provide case by case support to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade for New Zealand citizens and residents attempting to leave Gaza and travel to New Zealand. In addition, I have been assured by the Minister of Foreign Affairs that all New Zealand citizens and permanent residents who wanted to leave Gaza have now left, and this was a priority for the new Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed59dfcef59740d091c263b1033f3f97\u0022\u003EGolriz Ghahraman\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister create a special visa category for Palestinians with family members in Gaza, as was made available to Ukrainian New Zealanders in 2022?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284381b614a4246d0946d8d7ba23baee5\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Our current response of prioritising visa applications from people affected by the conflict is in line with our international partners, but I can assure the member that we will continue to monitor the situation very closely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022abf27403-4392-47c9-9af0-6773753e95cb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230d830e63fd94634bb4b4f94c898b48e\u0022\u003EGolriz Ghahraman\u003C/span\u003E: What makes the situation in Gaza different from the situation in Ukraine, given that the scale of the humanitarian crisis in Gaza is actually far worse, having claimed the lives of at least 20,000 civilians\u2014more than 7,000 children\u2014in the past nine weeks?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221a97ee9e2f0487e9412487510fd3398\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: I am advised by the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment that Ukraine was a different situation in that we were unable to, in that situation, work with the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees to take refugees. However, I want to also reiterate that at that time we were working in accordance with our international partners in a global, coordinated situation to take people from Ukraine. In this situation, I am confident that we are processing visas with priority, we are escalating them where required, and we have a team set up, as I said, to make sure that that\u2019s happening. I can also assure the member that we are using the exception to instructions process and being very permissive where we can. I\u2019d also like to let the member know that there have only been a very small handful of applications, but all the steps that I mentioned just previously are being taken with those applications.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220dec2b35a1924d43a062c8561973b2ea\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that the Immigration New Zealand website currently provides no practical evidence or support to people seeking to bring their family members to New Zealand from Gaza, and, if so, will she direct Immigration New Zealand to rectify this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4308712f218440fb21c86af44b63082\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: I asked my officials this morning if there was some information online about this process and they assured me that there was, but I will go back to them and make sure that it is more easily able to be found, and I\u2019m happy to also work with the member from the Greens if you\u2019d like a briefing on this with me and my officials.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232e2e57d6c904f7fa52e0ae42d578599\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: What is the average processing time for family members of people living in Gaza, and how does this compare with other family members who are trying to bring their families to Aotearoa?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa0cd5062fbb4f309db61d92dbf81abc\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: I asked that question of immigration officials this morning. It\u2019s very difficult to know, because at the moment the number of applications that we\u2019ve had are only divisible by offshore and onshore. So of those offshore, at this point in time, I am unable to tell how many of those people are actually in Gaza. On top of that, I\u2019ve asked for further information to find out how many there are in Gaza. I wasn\u2019t able to find out in the time allocated, but what we will do from here is find out how many are actually in Gaza and then what visa type they\u2019re trying to come in on, because it matters. It makes quite a big difference in terms of the visa that they\u2019re applying for. If it\u2019s a visitor visa, it\u2019s usually more quick. If it\u2019s a resident visa, it can take a little bit longer. But I am going to find out that information as quickly as we possibly can, but we do have to go through every single application and look individually as to where they are, if they\u2019ve given us that information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022af3f99a3ef2a44c58e6e07709e7f83df\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Transport\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022501d705f5fe64effbe547b1f656fdd40\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022501d705f5fe64effbe547b1f656fdd40\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: What reports has he seen on State Highway 25A in the Coromandel?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022b995593c0e1a46d28963d6b12af438f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b995593c0e1a46d28963d6b12af438f4\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E This morning, State Highway 25A reopened in time for Christmas after the completion of a new bridge following the significant damage caused by weather events earlier this year. This critical route was seriously damaged between K\u014Dp\u016B and Hikuai, but after impressive and hard work by the many construction workers on site, the bridge has reopened in record time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279253102767d4318a0430728387d0805\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: What will the reopening mean for locals and businesses and residents?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256af1c23aa284d3298a4e4b293208bcf\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: With the busy summer holiday period upon us, today\u2019s reopening will provide much-needed benefits for local businesses and residents in the Coromandel. Summer is a critical time for the Coromandel, and the reopening of State Highway 25A will welcome visitors back and provide a much-needed boost to the local economy. The hard-working MP for the Coromandel has strongly advocated for the reopening of this critical route, and today\u2019s reopening brings certainty for his constituents and for mine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bb78205f5004852b66687b5d36929f6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s absolutely enough. If I was strict, I\u2019d say that Minister had no responsibility for the Coromandel economy, so just keep it tight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262321dfcd7934ffe87436c892af136d5\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Is this project an example of how the New Zealand Transport Agency and contractors can work to get things done more quickly in other parts of New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288d91084511c40c8b636fb6501386bd2\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: State Highway 25A in the Coromandel demonstrates that New Zealand has the capacity and ability to deliver infrastructure at speed and within budget. The hard work of contractors and the reduction in red tape meant that this bridge could be opened in time for Christmas. The Government is committed to addressing the lengthy and expensive Resource Management Act process, fast-tracking consents to make it easier to deliver the infrastructure New Zealand needs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2dcfa65581542acb5ddb2ccbf0ad516\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: In his capacity as Minister of Transport, what Christmas message does the Minister have for the Coromandel, their locals, and the tens of thousands of people who will want to enjoy visiting the Coromandel this coming summer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ba0b72fc2af4637b71b73d001a729e8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Keep it tight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cea10e3f0572427b99b2dc6e65554e67\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, a very merry Christmas to everyone travelling across State Highway 25A and the Coromandel. May they enjoy the beautiful road and the beautiful beaches of the Coromandel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf978001ede94682be733e2204ee13e4\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister accept that the State Highway 25A project was announced by the previous Government on 9 May 2023, began construction in June 2023, and came in under budget more than three months ahead of schedule, and has absolutely nothing to do with any actions taken by the present Government other than to simply cut the ribbon?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2a98a3ee98f48a9876b4fc7539649a6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You know that the use of questions probably does cut both ways. So I\u2019m doing my best to make sure that the former Government doesn\u2019t get too criticised. But the former Government should try not to use question time for that political purpose. It was skilfully done, I\u2019ll grant you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226baba16634f142bea341a96341d801d0\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: As the saying goes: \u201CSuccess has many fathers.\u201D But those who deserve the credit for this impressive work for State Highway 25A are the project teams, construction workers who worked hard days, day and night, to get this new bridge. I want to thank the project team and wish all the construction workers a very merry Christmas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208dfdd5e649f4658ae75411ba310edcb\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware of previous examples of Ministers cutting ribbons on projects that may have started life under a previous Government, including projects that former political parties may have opposed before they were constructed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022791c346c07c14d1bb481bf0df5974d16\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I am, indeed. In fact, I remember a certain member of Parliament for Remutaka complaining about the so-called \u201Choliday highway\u201D before turning up to cut the ribbon. I\u2019m very pleased for the member of Coromandel for the hard work he\u2019s put into this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231243c69137b4a63b47753be484cd68b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not a fact, Minister\u2014[Interruption]\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292341374a4e549468fec95c8aad44ffb\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just wait for a bit of quiet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251a0fce8bda449fc8716e97dcbd1f267\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not a fact, Minister, that when, on 14 October, it was known there was going to be a new Government, work expedited, and this is not the fastest project this new Government has delivered?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a270dbf612944c9928a88d89848aee8\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: That is something which I\u2019d love to say is correct, but I must reiterate my points: I thank all the contractors and construction workers for this project.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c212d8ed0e594e40827952723cbca2d7\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Environment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u00225d17c8f13e914b83be7e838bd66a78cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d17c8f13e914b83be7e838bd66a78cc\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. My question is to the Minister for the Environment. Does she stand by her\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4d273f749ee4b98856ac74a19a27c93\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry\u2014could you start again? We\u2019ve just got too much talk over here. Please start again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022de1f66d6e73b40c098a63be57898f907\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de1f66d6e73b40c098a63be57898f907\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for the Environment: Does she stand by her answer given to primary oral question No. 11 yesterday; if so, which of the objectives of the National Policy Statement for Freshwater Management 2020 would she prioritise above the health and wellbeing of water bodies and freshwater ecosystems? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u0022c3fe6d26e9a0402f84c7e13f6f8e08cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c3fe6d26e9a0402f84c7e13f6f8e08cb\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I do stand by my statement. We do not agree with the hierarchy of objectives, and that is why we have undertaken to replace the National Policy Statement (NPS) for Freshwater Management 2020 to ensure more balanced, enduring, and sustainable outcomes. We have been clear that we will undertake a full and robust consultation process to replace the national policy statement and rebalance Te Mana o te Wai. It would therefore be inappropriate for me to give priorities when we will be entering a full consultation round. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228480572248e549799b8db2936a88ac5d\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: So can the Minister therefore confirm that she would not prioritise the objective of health needs of people over the commercial use of water? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207c9b048480f4409b0fc5f0b9f31b463\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: We have indicated that we would be looking for a balanced approach that would be more enduring and more sustainable, and therefore that consultation process will be with all stakeholders to ascertain all interests in fresh water. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284a4aea6e5544ef7a6444c3e88ba40fd\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Given her statement yesterday that she intends to customise and to have nuanced processes in place that ensure that at a community level they can be making decisions that are appropriate for that community, is she proposing to abandon national environmental standards entirely or will she retain freshwater bottom line standards?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222edac30898684563ae3751b764b423fd\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: We are very clear on this side that people on the ground are the ones that know solutions, and we\u2019ve got some wonderful examples of that with catchment groups, and so therefore we will be ensuring that our consultation is to that level of people on the ground who have the solutions who can then bring that into the new NPS. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022404a252e841344a0905ed05227248bab\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. That question was specifically about national environmental standards, and the answer related to the national policy statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c1c3e300057481fab7845295ed3f83f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The second part of it asked if she was going to drop some of those. The member knows that you can\u2019t ask a \u201Cyes or no answer\u201D question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a8fac70b93f4c6e833dd69c71ce2792\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Will she commit to ensure that it remains the case that tangata whenua are actively involved in freshwater management, including decision-making processes, and M\u0101ori freshwater values are identified and provided for? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d32ca929f8f4fa7bd2d9f3db6d2b337\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely. We are committed to a full consultation process including iwi and various other groups that have an interest in fresh water. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002287153a18ba474bf7aba5ef70f2512ccc\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Rural Communities\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022 data-id=\u00220023f67591c64f4dabf20c14492d8a8b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220023f67591c64f4dabf20c14492d8a8b\u0022\u003EJAMIE ARBUCKLE (NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Rural Communities: What recent reports has he seen regarding rural communities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022 data-id=\u002212c3a5a51be344bfa35bb272f04de549\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002212c3a5a51be344bfa35bb272f04de549\u0022\u003EHon MARK PATTERSON (Minister for Rural Communities):\u003C/span\u003E I have seen a report\u2014the extreme weather insights and observations 2023 report from the Ombudsman. I welcome this report but am sobered by its contents. This report writs large the necessity for improvements in rural infrastructure, transport links, and telecommunication. It highlights the plight of those in more isolated communities who felt they were ignored and abandoned by Government agencies and emergency response in favour of those places more, I quote, \u201Cin the news\u201D. This reflects my own observations on the ground during my recent ministerial visit to Tai R\u0101whiti. Rural roading was in a dire and often dangerous state. Locals, while stoic, were clearly stressed and anxious. This Government is committed to funding the recovery and not forgetting the plight of those in the Tai R\u0101whiti and other cyclone-affected areas. I thank the Prime Minister; the Minister of Transport, Simeon Brown; and the Minister of cyclone recovery, Mark Mitchell, for also visiting these areas. This is a Government that has put cyclone recovery at point 6 and point 7 in our 100-day plan. It is a strong signal to those communities that we will not abandon them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022032bc344cf9c496ea0f4321c5f897cc0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Hon Mark Patterson, that was a very long answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293b4d49961de4038abd2ba219227d9a0\u0022\u003EHon MARK PATTERSON\u003C/span\u003E: It was a good one, though.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcccfc0a0efc47219c7d38e948341b0c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, not necessarily. There was a bit of superfluous stuff in there. You could do better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276d841e051ff45958facfb354daff04d\u0022\u003EJamie Arbuckle\u003C/span\u003E: Has he seen reports on the increase in confidence that rural communities have in this Government\u2019s policies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218344472a32d425bbfc010fb2d6611a0\u0022\u003EHon MARK PATTERSON\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen another report, and rural communities have every confidence in this Government. The proof of the pudding was in the fourth-quarter Rabobank Rural Confidence survey. Of course, farmers are a key driver in rural prosperity and, indeed, the prospects of all New Zealand, accounting for 82 percent of all of our merchandise exports. Their net confidence has leapt 25 percent, and I quote from the report\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f345276b4c604988b05553d26aa5febd\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Tell us more!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc09c1585e8d483c9b15fd426b69e01a\u0022\u003EHon MARK PATTERSON\u003C/span\u003E: I will tell you more. A direct quote from the report: \u201CGovernment policy emerged as a major contributor to higher overall farmer confidence.\u201D Farmers are now more confident they have a Government that understands them and has a policy platform to address their issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232cb55f75c5c4d9c9ab7f8a0dfa4b936\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: Given his confidence in this Government, does he agree with the letter written by MP Mark Patterson, dated 7 December 2023, supporting my letter to the Minister of Education on 1\u00A0December 2023, requesting core funding of $90,000 per annum for the Tokomairiro Forestry Pathways course be provided by the Ministry of Education for the next three years, and, if so, will he commit to working with that Minister to ensure funding is forthcoming?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d153593bbaa4092a90e3963ff2e893e\u0022\u003EHon MARK PATTERSON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve already committed within that letter to taking exactly that course of action.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e2f050a461c41a0b4c103b63846e200\u0022\u003EJamie Arbuckle\u003C/span\u003E: What Government policies can rural communities look forward to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022669d039640df4670934c2c941f269d86\u0022\u003EHon MARK PATTERSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, there are too many to list, but of course the highlight for us on this side of the House is the $1.2 billion for regional infrastructure overseen by my colleague the Hon Shane Jones, and that will go some way to addressing the Ombudsman\u2019s concerns, as outlined in his report. The fast-tracking Resource Management Act provisions will unlock regional economies and make it easier to build renewable energy projects and get access to extracting natural resources, which will turbocharge our rural economies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022734c7210311f4596931f6c1671753d56\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022 data-id=\u00228f564d337bf848c2a0282ae6b335552c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228f564d337bf848c2a0282ae6b335552c\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: Has she seen any reports on student attendance?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0e667fd63b04b2a96b73867a5d1ee79\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0e667fd63b04b2a96b73867a5d1ee79\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E I have. Today, the Ministry of Education released the term 3 attendance data\u2014on schedule. This data shows that our attendance rates remain low, with just 45.9 percent of students attending school regularly. The data also revealed that there has been zero improvement in regular attendance rates from term 3 last year when regular attendance was 46 percent, a figure which I find incredibly disappointing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd23b67257bc408fb32db302b34ae22f\u0022\u003ERyan Hamilton\u003C/span\u003E: Why is regular attendance important?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af957cde03f74ff58881aaa2e7613fcf\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: In short, a wise man once said, \u201CTo succeed in education, you need to show up. Attendance and achievement go hand in hand.\u201D, and missing school leads to lower achievement. Regular school attendance is also connected to current and future outcomes like student wellbeing, future employment, and income levels. We have a moral, social, and economic imperative to deliver better results than were achieved over the last six years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe9c1988a1ce4a3db397ef9561b82d5b\u0022\u003ERyan Hamilton\u003C/span\u003E: Has she seen any other reports on attendance?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221da25322a95e4e07833010ae678c3c15\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I have. A report by the Education Review Office shows only 41 percent of parents are comfortable with their child missing a week or more of school a term. This equates to missing a year of school by the time they are 16. We need a change of direction to restore the habit of attending school regularly. Our coalition agreement with ACT commits to addressing low attendance by prioritising data reporting and enforcement action.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ab7fc2e6d1044cd95ac1c688d773b6c\u0022\u003ERyan Hamilton\u003C/span\u003E: Is attendance a priority for this Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b93e92fe6ce44dd9d8759fb91b0215f\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it most certainly is. Students need to be in the classroom learning the basics and on a pathway towards educational success. We will continue to ensure the right supports are in place to help families get their children to school. We will continue to work with schools to understand the local drivers of absenteeism and how they can be addressed, and we will be clear about our expectations. This Government will be sending a clear message that there is a moral and legal obligation for children to attend school. Parent attitude counts, and together, parents, schools, and the Government have a role to play in turning around these abysmal results.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ef561bd3116457ea5bd6639f6b7863b\u0022\u003EHon Jan Tinetti\u003C/span\u003E: How will the Minister ensure that learners stay away from school when they are indeed sick, as has been the focus over the last few years\u2014as confirmed in the Ministry of Education\u2019s own report, that states that \u201Cshort-term illness/medical absences \u2026 continued to be the main driver of non-attendance in term 3, 2023. The level of illness is associated with the continued incidence of COVID-19 and winter illnesses.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022226fc76b61cc42eb8e960405d9a708a5\u0022\u003EERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, two things there\u2014and one of those is the fact that I have already asked the ministry to look into this level of sickness, because it is interesting that the countries we compare ourselves to have far, far higher rates of attendance, and it would be interesting to find out why it is that New Zealand has such a high level of sickness and whether or not that is being used as an excuse. The other important thing to look at is the fact that the unjustified absences since 2017 have increased markedly. We have to have a change of direction and send a very clear message to parents that it is not OK to keep your children home from school.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d583eb62a794f7bab876506020d63cc\u0022\u003EDavid Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister intend to make it her practice to become an Olympic-level expert in obfuscating and justifying poor performance\u2014as we saw in the previous question\u2014or does this Government have a plan to actually improve attendance?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221414116899af4945854a384b15665608\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I think we\u2019ll let that one slide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286e0f8eca115462a9fb8f852ff7a6660\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I was just going to seek leave for the Labour Party to have an additional supplementary question to ask about school attendance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3ef857d266449d6b8a36cd7695d5313\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the Labour Party may well seek leave themselves, but the member can\u2019t do it on their behalf\u2014and he also knows that that\u2019s quite disorderly to undertake that. I think he\u2019s being unduly influenced by a bench colleague.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002255a0bda2cf0e4e45bd13b6833e47e0eb\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Workplace Relations and Safety\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022a472c456ddee4c7b9d75a98677bcda1f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a472c456ddee4c7b9d75a98677bcda1f\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety: Why did she decide to ignore advice by officials not to extend 90-day trials?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022 data-id=\u00224b413f2199e04e94ac226be942bc1d96\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b413f2199e04e94ac226be942bc1d96\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E I didn\u2019t. I have considered it. This Government is extending 90-day trials because of our long-term commitment to improving labour market flexibility so that businesses can create more and better jobs. Extending the availability of 90-day trials to give more businesses confidence to take a chance on new workers should be welcomed by all parties in this Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e14193f90cc74d82b89daccd5f2cbc31\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: Why did she decide not to follow the advice commissioned by the Treasury that concluded there was no evidence that the ability to use 90-day trials significantly increased companies\u2019 overall hiring?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ca02a0f27044981bb9f217fcd1282de\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN\u003C/span\u003E: While the member may not see that there is significant benefit in extending the 90-day trials, there is benefit to the number of businesses that we have spoken to across New Zealand who have said that this is a top priority to give them confidence to hire more and better workers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e286960e7f2d4f3fbde17d867b7d3433\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: Why did she decide to ignore the Hon Chris Bishop, who told New Zealanders on 29 November 2023 that \u201CWe will introduce and refer to a select committee a bill to extend 90-day trial periods for all businesses\u201D, when she decided to introduce a bill under urgency to do this without a select committee process?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3e7916c70384e97b18130f49ca4de4e\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN\u003C/span\u003E: Cabinet made that decision, and Cabinet has made the right decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220786dc5f2a5542c98eeb2d4d8f75cf4b\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: What does she say to the many thousands of New Zealanders who are likely to lose their jobs for no good reason due to the extension of this policy, including unfair reasons like their weight, having a bereavement, or their hair colour?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebe33baa5f284e3b8e5046a69fe4c2a6\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN\u003C/span\u003E: Nobody currently employed will lose their job because of the extension of 90-day trials. Existing current employment terms remain. All this policy will do is give confidence to businesses who are looking to employ new workers\u2014that gives them confidence to employ someone in the new year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa397ac3da194baf968fe25263a1e28f\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: What does she say to the employees who are moving into new work who are likely to lose their jobs for unfair reasons\u2014for example, their weight, having a bereavement, or, perhaps, their hair colour?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225144dad0ac524aa3a7de1c00e3c85534\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN\u003C/span\u003E: The member may wish to note that 90-day trials give the option for a new employment agreement. However, anybody who believes that they have been dismissed unjustifiably can bring a personal grievance still under the 90-day trial for unjustified disadvantage, discrimination, or sexual harassment\u2014those will still remain.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002207a3cb5583e74756a7f0766a589e40db\u0022\u003EEmployment Relations (Trial Periods) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d9a77e267adc4a14b1c7d1a423f65acd\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000707\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u00223d0546b78e404a368acbbc43e2813a30\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d0546b78e404a368acbbc43e2813a30\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green): T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te M\u0101ngai. Ehara taku toa i te toa takitahi, engari taku toa he toa takitini\u2014w\u003C/span\u003Ehich says, \u201CMy success is not mine alone, but it is the strength of many.\u201D If this Government was to live by that saying, they would not continue trampling over workers\u2019 rights, trampling over people\u2019s ability to have secure employment, and introducing the Employment Relations (Trial Periods) Amendment Bill, which will see generations of workers in precarious positions and being potentially fired for things like having the wrong hair colour, for things like having a bereavement, and for things like being sick. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThe Minister should be ashamed, should be embarrassed, and should go back to her coalition document, which supposedly claims that they will be looking at data and evidence when it comes to decision making, because this bill has no evidential basis. It has no research to back it up and it is an attack on workers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI want to reflect on the fact that many of the Government members keep talking about how the left doesn\u2019t own workers. And as I\u2019ve said before, this Government believes in employers owning workers\u2019 ability to live, workers\u2019 ability to remain in secure housing by giving employers the ability to get rid of people\u2014to treat them as disposable economic units.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EAs we head into Christmas, what this Government is giving to employers is the ability\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db52d165c140430cb6125c032debaa86\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: To fire at will. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ab1876d58cd4cf9b75f8ade2f2133b6\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014to fire at will\u2014that\u2019s right\u2014and we have to remember that our employment laws are already weighted to favour employers. That power imbalance already exists. It\u2019s been decades in the making. It is how capitalism was designed, and this Government is simply worsening it and entrenching it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThere is research to show that 90-day trials do not work. They do not increase wages; they do not increase working conditions. There is evidence already to support this and let\u2019s not pretend that the Government simply has not read the evidence. They\u2019ve read it and they do not care. They do not care for workers and they do not care for the evidence that backs up that this piece of legislation is rubbish. This piece of legislation would lead to worsening pay and conditions for workers as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EWe do have, also, plenty of evidence from workers themselves, stories that they have generously provided to people in this Chamber when the previous Government was looking at changing how 90-day trials operated. I just want to touch on, for example, one of those stories from Jessica, who at the time talked about: \u201CI called in sick to work one day. My employer wanted to have a disciplinary meeting about this.\u201D These are the kinds of stories; this is the kind of situation that those 90-day trials create by creating that ability for employers to be able to get rid of workers for whatever reason they like, under the justification of being able to find a good match.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EAll that we are doing is creating a cycle where people will be thrown back into an income support system that was designed to keep people in poverty, back into low-wage employment, back into that same income support system. Employers will continue being able to pay workers poor wages and will be able to continue treating those workers as disposable labour units.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThe Green Party understands that our society does not thrive when we treat workers as disposable. If we want to create a society where people are able to not just survive but to thrive, we need to strengthen the right of workers, not diminish them. So I look forward to the debate and exchanges with the Minister later in the committee of the whole House stages, to unpack what best available evidence she used, rather than the vibes she chose to carry throughout the election, rather than the vibes she\u2019s now just speaking to\u2014neo-liberal and cruel vibes at that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThe Green Party will be opposing this bill, and what we will be fighting for is to ensure that this Government does not last the test of time and that we are able to reintroduce protections for workers and go beyond what previous Governments have created.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022 data-id=\u0022114f83133b494eddbda5d4132fd44e29\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022114f83133b494eddbda5d4132fd44e29\u0022\u003EKATIE NIMON (National\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak on the first reading of the Employment Relations (Trial Periods) Amendment Bill. I have managed a business under both models, and I can tell you the hesitance to employ without the use of 90-day trial is real. A good debate hears from both sides, and members opposite clearly have not. The 90-day trial is a tool that does not need to be used, and most often is not. But the help that it provides to employers to take a chance on workers that may have no experience, that may have a tough track record, is what makes the difference. This is reasonable, and I look forward to seeing it amended. With that, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022 data-id=\u00225382a05a87a145399a642660da135ea9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225382a05a87a145399a642660da135ea9\u0022\u003EJAMIE ARBUCKLE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I stand to take the first call for New Zealand First on this bill, on the Employment Relations (Trial Periods) Amendment Bill. New Zealand First supports this bill and I commend it to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u002278944b2632c14b57acdc99a4329317ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002278944b2632c14b57acdc99a4329317ce\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: [T\u0101kuta Ferris stands] You have to seek the call. Are you seeking the call?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022540c7f5987114934b21a3f76d70710bf\u0022\u003ET\u0101kuta Ferris\u003C/span\u003E: \u0100e.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00228ee9c54e022b40edb37e8e50f8ef98cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ee9c54e022b40edb37e8e50f8ef98cd\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: You have to ask the Speaker for the call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022084cb4bc23824450a1b4b7f499304287\u0022\u003ET\u0101kuta Ferris\u003C/span\u003E: \u0100e, I was seeking the call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022 data-id=\u002280743fa9df8b4dddb1c4d6bc8e2a469b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002280743fa9df8b4dddb1c4d6bc8e2a469b\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou. Ka t\u016B ahau ki te w\u0101hi i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero m\u014D Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori e h\u0101ngai p\u016B ana ki t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 pire. T\u0113nei pire e tere kawea nei e t\u0113nei K\u0101wanatanga, me te whai aronga kore ki tana hoa haere i roto i te Tiriti o Waitangi, me te m\u014Dhio ko te nuinga o ng\u0101 wh\u0101nau M\u0101ori ka p\u0101 kinotia e t\u0113nei pire, i runga an\u014D i te \u0101heinga o te hunga takat\u016B i roto i te ao pakihi te tuku i a r\u0101tou kia whakakorengia t\u014D r\u0101tou t\u016B hei kaimahi i roto i te toru marama.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EKua m\u014Dhio k\u0113tia wh\u0101nuitia, t\u0113n\u0101 whakatipuranga, t\u0113n\u0101 whakatipuranga, ko te iwi M\u0101ori te iwi ka ngaua kinotia e \u0113nei t\u016Bmomo pire. N\u0101, i roto i ng\u0101 wiki e rua kua taha ake nei kua whai whakaaro t\u0113nei taha o te Whare kia kawea terehia \u0113nei pire me te whai aronga kore ki a Ng\u0101i M\u0101ori, ki ng\u0101 iwi r\u0101nei, otir\u0101 ki te \u014Dhanga M\u0101ori i roto o Aotearoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EN\u014D reira e kore rawa m\u0101tou e whakaae ki te hanga o t\u0113nei pire, me te m\u014Dhio iho he t\u016Bkinotanga \u014Dna n\u014D roto mai o te Tiriti o Waitangi, he patunga \u014Dna ki runga i ng\u0101 mokopuna o te motu, he whai whakaaro kore ki ng\u0101 wh\u0101nau M\u0101ori e noho nei i roto o Aotearoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E[Greetings to us all. I stand to open the discussion on behalf of the M\u0101ori Party, directly relating to this bill. This bill that is being rushed through by this Government, without consideration for its partner in the Treaty of Waitangi, in the knowledge that the majority of M\u0101ori families will be adversely affected by this bill, due to the ability of those established in the business sector that allows them to dismiss their standing as an employee in three months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EIt is already widely known, each successive generation, that it is M\u0101ori society that are the people that are adversely affected by these types of bills. So in the last two weeks this side of the House has thought to rush these bills through without any consideration of the M\u0101ori people, or of the various iwi, and indeed of the M\u0101ori economy within Aotearoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003ESo we will never agree with the structure of this bill, in the knowledge that it has violations of the Treaty of Waitangi, it is an assault on the grandchildren of the nation, and it does not at all consider the M\u0101ori families that reside here in Aotearoa.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003ESo Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori vehemently opposes this bill. We understand that the age-old saying of M\u0101ori being the highly extendable shock absorber of the New Zealand economy over decades seems to be well in play with the current bill\u2014the repeal of this bill. We know that young M\u0101ori families will be disadvantaged by this bill, their children will be disadvantaged, kaum\u0101tua will be disadvantaged, as will many other minority peoples in this country. We\u2019ve heard a lot from this side of the House over the last two days and two weeks. We understand that it takes mobility and agility to grow an economy, but if that\u2019s at the expense of the most vulnerable people in that society, then it\u2019s not something that we could ever condone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll just remind this side of the House that they\u2019ve paid no attention\u2014given no regard\u2014to their Tiriti partner, as described in my maiden speech as the principle in that agreement, and to do so in 2023 whilst the motu stands up to rally against it just defies explanation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f5efa50aed041c0a066d0d9707ba1c3\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: Just because you don\u2019t like it doesn\u2019t mean that M\u0101ori aren\u2019t in agreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf24591fecb0483b8baeaa1f8023a12b\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, well, it\u2019s not just me that doesn\u2019t like it; there\u2019s plenty of people that don\u2019t like it. [Interruption] But I don\u2019t think you have any bandwidth for garnering any sort of opinion from the M\u0101ori community, e hoa, so I wouldn\u2019t pursue that line of argument if I was sitting in your seat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EBut heoi an\u014D ko te m\u014Dhio iho ko Ng\u0101i M\u0101ori ka ngaua kinotia e t\u0113nei pire. E kore m\u0101tou e whakaae. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E[However, it is known that it will be the M\u0101ori people that will be greatly adversely affected by this bill. We will never agree.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EWhen I look across here to this side of the House, I don\u2019t see leaders. I\u2019m not seeing leadership. I\u2019m not seeing the voice of the motu. I\u2019m seeing the voice of a small segment of the motu who voted these people in. And, you know, the trouble\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215b85418840b4974b695844fc63bbafe\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: 4 percent M\u0101ori\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291fa0694b48d4912b8d69fc910409d76\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! Four percent, \u0101e, 4 percent M\u0101ori. Over here I see lobbyists, I see people who prioritise profit over people. I see people who expect us to believe that all business owners are benevolent do-gooders and they\u2019re going to look after everybody for ever. But the trouble with that idea is that unlike a business, when you can simply discard unproductive units, when you\u2019re responsible for a society and the wellbeing of that society, simply discarding those people, or those units that you deem suboptimal, does nothing to improve that society. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EN\u014D reira, Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori vehemently opposes this anti-worker, anti-wh\u0101nau, and anti  Te Tiriti o Waitangi bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022fde398d052e94522b1bc768d9cb119c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fde398d052e94522b1bc768d9cb119c6\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Just before I take the next call, I will remind members that if you want to have a discussion and a chit-chat right across the House, there\u2019s plenty of space out there in the hallways. I didn\u2019t want to interrupt the previous speaker, but I would like people to keep that in mind. There\u2019s plenty of spaces for us to have those debates as well, and it can make it difficult for people at home listening if folks start to get a bit rowdy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022 data-id=\u0022294e883ed02f42828d977dd8c266fb87\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022294e883ed02f42828d977dd8c266fb87\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise to support the Employment Relations (Trial Periods) Amendment Bill. As I worked across the Whanganui electorate, visited businesses in Whanganui, in Waverley, in P\u0101tea, in H\u0101wera, and in Stratford, I met many business owners who looked to this sort of opportunity to provide opportunities to employees across our electorate. I know my colleagues across the country who won their seats in the recent election had similar experiences. We also spoke to the employees, or the potential employees that wanted the opportunity that those employers could give and that this bill provides for that relationship to occur. So I\u2019m pleased to support the Government\u2019s 100-day plan to deliver on our commitments and what the voters wanted. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec2556a50d7549dc9c85e8f257403d75\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec2556a50d7549dc9c85e8f257403d75\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Oh, they would have been so proud of that speech, too, so well done. They would have thought, \u201CWhat a long way they went with that fabulous, well-thought-out speech.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s so sad; it\u2019s such a sad time, this. We\u2019ve got such an uncaring Government at the moment. [Laughter] They laugh away, but here we are. We\u2019re\u2014what are we?\u2014five days from Christmas, and they\u2019ve been attacking M\u0101ori, attacking workers, and they don\u2019t even know what they\u2019re doing. They\u2019re so stupid, it\u2019s just beyond belief. They sit there and they don\u2019t realise what an arrogant Government they are, what a terrible start they\u2019ve made. Here we are, with fair pay agreements thrown out. Now, we\u2019re kicking the unions for the benefit of the boss. That\u2019s what this is all about. It\u2019s not about building equality in terms of this country. This is how you rip it down, with their ideas. It\u2019s so sad.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EI think that I was listening to T\u0101kuta there\u2014you know, no regard for M\u0101ori, no regard for partnership, no regard for the Treaty. It\u2019s like it\u2019s all been forgotten. We saw that this morning with the repeal of the Resource Management Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s no reason to extend the 90-day right-to-sack law beyond small businesses that employ less than 20 people. This is being rammed through, in terms of urgency, because, obviously, they have to tiptoe around Winston\u2019s ego for almost two months. What\u2019s being rammed through under urgency is a spiteful law. This is a spiteful law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EThe Government talk like they\u2019re the only people who\u2019ve been involved in business. We know that this type of law can really hurt the vulnerable. They don\u2019t know where they\u2019re going\u2014they can\u2019t plan anything. They\u2019re at the whim of some of these National Party and ACT Party bosses. You know, they\u2019re at their whim. This is what worries us. We\u2019re trying to work through how we can support our people productively, and this is the best way of doing it! They\u2019ve been so badly hit in terms of the fair bargaining process, this is not legislation that helps workers, it only weakens their rights. That\u2019s the danger here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ac952b558724eb6a8022719ccd0819d\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: Strengthens the opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cee588a63be34f37ae5b87866b63e001\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: No, this is not opportunity. As we said earlier, you know, we\u2019re going to get down to the point where you\u2019re just going to get rid of people because you\u2019re just sick of them. It\u2019s not legislation that helps workers; it supresses wages. It\u2019s not legislation that helps workers; it just strengthens bosses\u2019 rights. That\u2019s what the unions have been saying to us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EAfter six years in Opposition, all National is doing is tearing down what we\u2019ve put in place. When\u2019s it going to stop? We\u2019ve got the smokefree laws. We\u2019ve got fair bargaining. We\u2019ve got M\u0101ori Health Authority. This will catch up with this Government. They\u2019ve got no vision for New Zealand; it\u2019s just about bashing the vulnerable, bashing workers, and bashing M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EI just cannot believe how the Government can\u2019t see the type of damage that\u2019s happening. Particularly, I look at the smokefree stuff\u2014this is all connected. We\u2019ve got world-recognised legislation in terms of smokefree\u2014world-recognised legislation. England have embraced it. But this lot, here: throw it out\u2014throw it out\u2014so they can fund their rich mates with their stupid tax cuts. That\u2019s what we\u2019re talking about: they\u2019re wreckers and destroyers. This is not how you build an economy or community or society. It\u2019s an enormous step backwards, and this is happening and continuing all the time. The State should be against exploiting workers, not enabling it. [Assistant Speaker gestures for member to return to subject of bill] Well, I\u2019m trying to keep it right in context. I think that\u2019s what this is all about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EThis is a bill that is exploiting the situation with regards to workers. They cannot plan, they cannot get a future in place, all because of the selfishness and the greediness of a National Government who don\u2019t care at all about workers\u2019 rights.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022 data-id=\u0022f97e5c1cf3124cf5b4389009ddae9e80\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f97e5c1cf3124cf5b4389009ddae9e80\u0022\u003EMIKE BUTTERICK (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E I speak in support of the Employment Relations (Trial Periods) Amendment Bill. Businesses both large and small in our electorate, in Central Hawke\u2019s Bay, Tararua, in the Wairarapa are facing tough times. Rising interest rates and unworkable legislation are making it difficult to do business. Returning 90-day trials will give them some confidence. The point that the other side of the House misses is that those seeking new employment but may have had a few speed bumps, those vulnerable people are often those that employers won\u2019t take a chance on. What is wrong with an extended trial period where employers will give people a go? Nothing. I\u2019m pleased to support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u00220e865c47b24847fcbc103ff06ddbb05d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e865c47b24847fcbc103ff06ddbb05d\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E We\u2019re sitting in the House today and I\u2019ve got five minutes to explain to you why what you\u2019re doing, what\u2014sorry, Mr Speaker; explain to the Opposition or to the Government\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255d9cc03376d4a20a177e1fd8ca15c66\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220dd4240fdb4a47fabed9957541c5ccaa\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014why what they are doing\u2014yes, that\u2019s right: you\u2019re the Government, and I am so sad that you are taking this action today. I want to explain just why\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227aea93a2cd5846bca10653c8aada02ce\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Direct your comments to the Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acc0f22050ec4ce7a1620bfa6bb4022c\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014this is going to hurt people out there. So I just want to take one worker and I don\u2019t want to take a dramatic example; I want to take one worker who I think is a realistic representation of the kind of person that you\u2019re going to impact on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ESo let\u2019s take a worker in my electorate of Mt Albert. That person has been working at a local cafe and they\u2019ve learnt how to make a coffee. They\u2019ve got three kids; their kids are 12 and 14 and two. By next Christmas, they\u2019ve been offered a job\u2014just before next Christmas and they\u2019re going to be offered a job at Starbucks. Now, Starbucks is a multinational. It has well over 50 employees. By this time next year\u2014in fact, quite soon\u2014Starbucks will be able to offer that person work without any obligation to keep them employed after 90 days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ESo this worker has got a dilemma. She\u2019s got three kids. She\u2019s on minimum wage and she might get a little bit more at Starbucks, so she might decide to go and work there. If she goes to work there, she\u2019ll be subject to a restraint of trade. She probably doesn\u2019t know that because it\u2019s in the bulk of the collective agreement. It says that there\u2019s a restraint of trade in there for six months. So she\u2019ll be stuck in that job because that will be part of the contract.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225334dbf1a05b4dbe8f522ab6646e6f77\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the union agree to that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddc2deedac7c4bda8b8d1c059549be6d\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE\u003C/span\u003E: Now, I\u2019d appreciate if you\u2019d listen to me, Judith Collins, Minister\u2014I\u2019d appreciate you listening to this because this is a real-life situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022320067c258d34641a83a823a14e09e41\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: If the speaker could have the conversation with me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223943e358b17445a9adcaa9f27cc635f0\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I\u2019d appreciate a little bit of respect. Listen to this story, because it\u2019s an interesting story because it fleshes out what\u2019s actually happening here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ESo this person has three children. They all get on a bus to go to school because there\u2019s only one car in this family. They all are going to pay full price, so that worker is already going to have that issue. She\u2019s going to start at her job\u2014if she is daring to start at that job, because she may know that that makes her very precarious. She\u2019s in a risky situation so she\u2019s less likely to move from her minimum-wage job to one that pays slightly more. When she gets there, if her children get sick and she has to actually stop and look after them, she\u2019s going to hesitate, isn\u2019t she? Because she\u2019s not going to be willing to take the risk that in those 90 days she does anything that might make her a target for an instant dismissal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a909188f8df4f5da77af4889bdb118d\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: Hypothetical.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a0c8c31a2f64537bd266d720f64f0d7\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not a hypothetical; it\u2019s a reality. Because that will be the fear of the woman in this situation\u2014that will be the fear. So she\u2019s likely to come to work when her kids are sick. She\u2019s already got one child, by the way, who\u2019s two, and she won\u2019t be getting any of the benefits that she would have got, which was the free childcare. So, again, she\u2019s less likely to work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ENow, that person is sacked. They\u2019re sacked and we\u2019re held to a restraint of trade in that situation. They are sacked. It might be for a good reason; it might be for a bad reason. They\u2019ve got no natural justice attached to it. We wouldn\u2019t know, would we? We wouldn\u2019t know whether it was a good reason or a bad reason.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EThat person is then without work, just before Christmas next year. Who will be picking up the tab? Will that be Starbucks, the multinational? No, it will be the taxpayer\u2014the taxpayer will pick up the tab. So what we\u2019ve actually effectively done is we\u2019ve taken all the risk associated with that worker\u2014who, by the way, was not the mythical take-a-chance person; they were, in fact, the worker who was just trying to get ahead, just trying to get above minimum wage. And we\u2019re going to have them actually on the books next Christmas as a person that the taxpayer\u2019s paying for, because that\u2019s what we do. We subsidise Starbucks under this arrangement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EBut, by all means, don\u2019t have a submission process around this! Don\u2019t try and glue some of the very important boundaries to this in place! No, just do it because why would you listen? I mean, you\u2019ve been in Government for 6\u00BD minutes and you\u2019re already not listening to people. You don\u2019t want to know what the reality of what you do is, because you\u2019re stuck in an old-fashioned ideology that didn\u2019t work and hasn\u2019t for a long time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022 data-id=\u00224e7d76b6a29441e6802c4e9db448fb18\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E I rise \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e7d76b6a29441e6802c4e9db448fb18\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland):to \u003C/span\u003Espeak in support of the Employment Relations (Trial Periods) Amendment Bill. After listening to some of the speakers on the other side of the House, you\u2019d think employers were actually hiring people to sack them. Well, actually, that\u2019s not the case. The process of going through to actually want to hire somebody is quite a process, and when you make those selections, then you do it for all the good reasons to support your business. As somebody who is a small-business owner and had the benefit to actually take advantage of this situation to employ some people that you might not actually normally have done, and given them a chance, then that gives you the confidence to do so, and that is why I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ca117257ce9849f5ac82866b2de8cf37\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Employment Relations (Trial Periods) Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000772\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022b5b07653b7924c1d9c58445eddc53e48\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b5b07653b7924c1d9c58445eddc53e48\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for second reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223ab61bae7c5843eb93677908813c9097\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022 data-id=\u00228f287e5c863a457baec4922a8f7b6d70\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228f287e5c863a457baec4922a8f7b6d70\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Employment Relations (Trial Periods) Amendment Bill be now read a second time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EThe Employment Relations (Trial Periods) Amendment Bill is a very important bill for us to pass before Christmas. This bill will extend the availability of 90-day trials as an option for all employers, repealing what the previous Government did by restricting the availability to only small businesses. Currently, the law for 90-day trials as an option in employment agreements exists only for businesses or companies with fewer than 20 employees. Extending this trial will make a huge difference to the flexibility of our labour market, because larger businesses employ around 72 percent of all employees in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EWe are debating this bill under urgency because it is within the Government\u2019s 100-day plan and is a commitment that we want to restore business optimism and confidence before Christmas, so that businesses and workers are going into the new year with certainty over the labour market. There is no time to waste in getting rid of the bleak economic environment and outlook that was left by the previous Government. We need to get the labour market settings right so that businesses and workers can both keep their heads above water.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve gone through the history of 90-day trials in the first reading, but why this Government is reintroducing and extending 90-day trials to all businesses is because we\u2019ve heard loud and clear from employers up and down New Zealand that they want more confidence in the labour market, so that they can take a chance on someone who might be seen as a riskier worker. Workers deserve that right as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EWhether a business has two employees or they have 200 employees, there is a cost to doing business. There is a cost to hiring a new employee and bringing them into the workforce. It takes money, it takes time, it takes resources, and everybody wants that worker and that employee to work well with the employer. It\u2019s in everybody\u2019s best interests to find the right fit. It increases productivity in the workforce, it helps to make sure that you\u2019ve got the culture right within the workplace, and, importantly, it gives the opportunity for somebody who may not have had a fair chance a chance in a new environment. They might not have the right skill, they might not have the right qualification, but if they have the right attitude, they can find a business who\u2019d be willing to give them a go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EApart from the cost of the dismissal process, retaining an employee who is not the right fit can actually have a detrimental effect on all of the employees within that workspace as a whole. It can take only one employee who has a poor attitude or doesn\u2019t have the right skills to actually do the job to a good standard to take down a productive team. So it\u2019s important that we get the fit right between an employee and an employer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EThe costs and risks that are associated with a dismissal can lead to a labour market with fewer employment opportunities, particularly for those people who are trying to just get a foot in the door\u2014people with criminal convictions, as an example. The costly dismissal process, which we would be removing for all employers, can make the workplace less productive. When businesses can employ only a certain number of people\u2014because they\u2019re resource constrained, they are financially constrained\u2014having a worker who is a poor match within that business is not giving an opportunity for somebody else who could do a better job or could be a better fit or could do the job at a higher standard than somebody else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EWe have heard time and time again from businesses who tell us that this is their top priority for improving their own workplace culture, by lifting this unnecessary regulation. This bill will help people across New Zealand\u2019s economy, from farmers to retailers. There are many, many more that have sent in their stories, all the time when we were in Opposition, wanting to make sure that we got the labour market settings right so that they have confidence in employing new staff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EThis bill will help employers take on new staff by reducing risks in the hiring process. This is particularly the case when employers are considering someone who doesn\u2019t tick all the boxes\u2014people who might be considered risky, people who might not have had a job before, or people who have little job experience or maybe just don\u2019t present well in a job interview. It gives them an option and a chance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003ENot all workers, of course, will be happy to have a 90-day trial clause in their contracts\u2014that\u2019s fine; this legislation is for an option to have a 90-day trial. It is not mandatory for employees and companies to have a 90-day trial. Any short-term cost or concern or stress about having a 90-day trial in a contract will be outweighed, I consider, by the lack of stress of actually having a job and being given an option of employment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EStarting a business is a brave move. Hiring staff is a risky move. We are hopeful that everyone will find the right fit of employee for the right job. This gives businesses the opportunity to have that right fit without having an ongoing liability. So this Government supports businesses, we support workers, but we\u2019re a Government that will deliver for both. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022f7a1018bf74c4611af14a61b190ad9ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f7a1018bf74c4611af14a61b190ad9ef\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022a70bf5e007564d27a853a27986cefe01\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a70bf5e007564d27a853a27986cefe01\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Here I am to speak to the same bill quite soon after I finished my first reading contribution, because, of course, for those tuning in at home, this bill is being passed through urgency, which means we haven\u2019t had a select committee process. We haven\u2019t had an opportunity to actually hear from the New Zealanders that the Government purports to be so concerned about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ENow, I listened to the Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety\u2019s speech, and I commend her for speaking a little bit longer than she managed on the first reading, but what I can\u2019t commend her for is the lack of evidence and substance within what she\u2019s actually saying. She says that she spoke to someone or to a business and they said that they might quite like this. We\u2019ve heard members opposite accusing people on this side of the House of not having been employers before\u2014and, in fact, most of us have been or still are\u2014and that they had spoken to employers and that this is what employers wanted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EWell, let me just say that the Government is not some kind of Christmas Santa Claus for Business New Zealand, and doesn\u2019t and shouldn\u2019t have the role of listening to all of Kirk Hope\u2019s wish list for implementation without scrutinising whether those policies actually work. The evidence is that this particular bill has no evidential basis that it will help the New Zealand economy at all, that it will help employers at all, and, actually, it will hurt employees. The reason that I say that is because that is what is contained in Treasury\u2019s own advice and that is what is contained in independent advice commissioned by the Treasury.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo, as I said previously, electoral mandates don\u2019t justify bad lawmaking, and this is bad lawmaking. New Zealanders had a right to state their view in relation to the extension of trial periods. If there is a justification for this policy, which is questionable, looking at the most recent evidence, then that justification would only apply to the small businesses which are currently covered by this policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe extension that the Government is proposing with this bill is actually not just in relation to the number of employers but, actually, the number of employees in New Zealand will be hugely increased by the extension of this policy. So at the moment, we have about 28 percent of the workforce covered. That will include the remaining 78 percent when this policy is implemented. So a huge number are not currently covered; have security in their employment when they start work; understand that if there are problems, they can be addressed through normal employment processes, on conduct, on performance, with natural justice; but have confidence that they\u2019re not going to be sacked for no good reason by their employer within that first three months. So this is not a minor thing that the Government is doing; this is actually quite a major overhaul of the terms and conditions of a number of New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ENow, you\u2019d think that another thing that the Government might want to look at in extending the policy on trial periods is: do they actually work? When we look at the cases that have gone through the Employment Relations Authority on trial periods, we find that, actually, they don\u2019t. Out of the 178 trial periods that were taken to the Employment Relations Authority, 133 were found to be invalid. This is because the Employment Court and the Employment Relations Authority have taken a very strong line with making sure that procedures around trial periods are followed correctly. The reason for that is they have noted themselves that trial periods remove the right to justice. They remove natural justice from employees, from being able to say, \u201CActually, I don\u2019t think that\u2019s fair.\u201D or \u201CActually, that allegation isn\u2019t correct.\u201D or \u201CActually, I\u2019ve got another side of the story.\u201D or \u201CActually, I think the reason to dismiss me, to make sure that I don\u2019t have a way of making a living, is unfair.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229d17a1df9cc4123b935d85ef21932a0\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: You can only be dismissed if you\u2019ve got a job in the first place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db61ad758a634cc69d3a81a0b35af322\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: That cannot occur in trial periods\u2014and the Employment Court, which I would expect members opposite, who constantly seem to be parroting back the same thing over and over again, should respect. So it is actually a significant move that the Government is making to remove natural justice from New Zealanders with this bill, which is very, very disappointing, and very disheartening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019ve mentioned there is no select committee process, and, quite separate to any request, I\u2019ve actually had community groups and organisations come up to me and ask me for information about when the select committee process is going to occur. Why, you may ask, would people do that? Why would people ask about a select committee process? Well, because the Hon Chris Bishop told New Zealanders in November\u2014late November; so, very recently\u2014that there would be a select committee process, and now we find there is not going to be one. So they emailed me, and they said, \u201CWhen\u2019s the select committee going to be?\u201D I said, \u201CThere won\u2019t be one, because this Government is pushing this trial periods legislation through under urgency.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EOne of the organisations that contacted me was the National Council of Women (NCW), and they\u2019ve asked me to read out what they would have said if they\u2019d had the ability to make a submission. They said, \u201CMany thanks for your kind offer to share NCW\u2019s views today in the parliamentary debate.\u201D\u2014this is upon hearing that there wouldn\u2019t be a select committee process\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ed270f50a034d0db18ef04a5a79de35\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: Who contacted who first?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022283ea766b93a4ff2bc36dedef678700e\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: They contacted me first. \u201CNCW firmly supports fair working conditions for all, and, in particular, women and others in low-paid jobs, who are often made to feel vulnerable by insecure employment. Our longstanding policy seeks to promote the rights of workers and to protect all employees from exploitation, including protection from employers who may intentionally employ workers for a short period of time in order to deny their rights to sick leave and other entitlements.\u201D Genuine concern from a very well-respected community group.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EAnother person who contacted me was Jenny. She said she\u2019s wondering how the mental health of the population is ever to improve with things like 90-day trials. It pushes people into higher anxiety and the burden of depression and stress. Having a job, especially a full-time one, makes it very hard, over those three months, for that worker to keep applying for other jobs and going for interviews, just to have a backstop for a \u201Cwhat if\u201D situation after the 90-day trials are let go. Then, if an employer deems a worker is no longer needed, what happens regarding Work and Income New Zealand? Is there a stand-down period when one has lost their job after the 90 days? Genuine concerns by New Zealanders that could have been addressed through advice in the select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EAnother person contacted me: Mel. She said she had a boyfriend unfairly dismissed by a company still using a 90-day trial period last year. It was a dairy farm that employed mainly workers from overseas, and he reported a fallen cow, and then was blamed for pushing the cow over and was dismissed. It is well known, Mel notes, that cows can fall over for other reasons, which I\u2019m sure those opposite who have mentioned the usefulness of these in farms can attest to. She said she supported her friend to the Citizens Advice Bureau, was assigned a lawyer, and won the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EFinally, I wanted to mention a contribution\u2014oh, no, second to finally, actually; got quite a few people who have contacted me. Craig, another person involved in a farm\u2014so I was pleased when I heard someone mention earlier in the debate how useful this would be to farmers, because we have examples about how this can actually be very bad for farm workers, who we\u2019re, obviously, also very concerned about. \u201CMy brother-in-law was employed as a dairy farm worker and his employment package included a house which he and his wife moved into. His employment was terminated under a 90-day trial with no notice and he was required to be out of his house by the end of the weekend that same week, rather than usual 14 days\u2019 notice, because the employer needed a replacement employee.\u201D Extremely unpleasant experience\u2014that\u2019s what Craig says. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EAnd then the last thing was I got another email from Francesco. He said, \u201CAs an immigrant who chose to live in this country, I am worried about the future.\u201D I am too, because when we see a Government who is willing to introduce a policy that has no basis in any evidence to work towards the objective that they state, it is very concerning for the future of this country. We know that there is no evidence to back up that this policy increases rates of hiring. We\u2019ve seen independent studies that have looked into whether this is, in fact, correct and we have seen, in relation to this policy, that it\u2019s not. It doesn\u2019t work in New Zealand, it doesn\u2019t work for New Zealanders, and there is no basis for the Government to extend it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022379d1d6abcdc4b28b18a0e94f28f04cc\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: It absolutely works.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022008582cf1cd945909d97970e934af201\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: Simply stating the opposite of a proposition, Mr Bates, does not render that proposition correct. What I\u2019m looking at is a study that shows that it doesn\u2019t work. What I would implore the Government to do is when they get a request from an organisation like Business New Zealand or where they speak to an employer, that instead of just simply accepting that policy and pushing it through under urgency in their first 100 days, just on the basis that they said they would, they actually look at the evidence and see whether that policy actually does what people want it to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI have sympathy for the fact that employers want to employ more people. I have sympathy for that, and I know that there are a lot of very good employers out there who always want to do the right thing. This policy will not help them become better employers. This policy will not help them take chances on people who they might not otherwise. The effect of this policy is simply to make vulnerable people, who have no job security, not want to take on new opportunities or be sacked for an unfair reason. That can be traumatising and impact them for the rest of their life. I do not commend this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022b3ff77e410c24af9b8bbc622b56705f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b3ff77e410c24af9b8bbc622b56705f9\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I don\u2019t wish to insult the Minister\u2019s intelligence by implying that she has not read the evidence available, that she has not looked for evidence around the impact of this bill. I think the Minister knows what she\u2019s doing; she knows that she\u2019s making workers\u2019 lives worse, and she doesn\u2019t care. Let\u2019s not pretend that this is a Minister who simply hasn\u2019t done the homework. She\u2019s done the homework and she\u2019s come, as part of this Government, with the intent of making workers\u2019 lives more difficult.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ESo let\u2019s make it really, really, really clear what we are talking about when we\u2019re seeing an extension of 90-day trials; a scheme that has not shown to improve conditions for workers, that has not shown to improve retention of people in their workplaces, and that, if anything, it increases the precarity, it increases the ability for employers to exploit workers, it does not lead to the so-called high productivity that she talks about, because the agenda that this Minister has is one where employers hold more control over workers, where workers are not able to get ahead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EWhen the Minister has spoken about the risk that employers take with their workers, she forgets that it is not just employers who are taking a risk here; it is workers too. Workers take a massive risk entering a new job. They\u2019re risking their time, they\u2019re risking their ability to stay well. So often, people are entering into workplace cultures that may be completely unfamiliar to what they\u2019ve been used to before. They\u2019re risking their income. They\u2019re risking their ability to pay rent, because if they get fired as a result of the 90-day trials they may face a period of living in poverty with the income support that has been kept in poverty as a decision from successive Governments, including from previous National Governments as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ESo the Minister is conveniently omitting a key part of this, which is the risk that workers take when they enter employment. She has at no point throughout the passage of this bill, throughout this debate, spoken about the need to improve the wellbeing of workers. She has focused on the control that employers should have, according to her, on those very people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI want to reflect a bit on my own experience in the hospitality scene prior to entering this place, and the aspect of serving customers. Something that I think many people in this House clearly lack is coming from a place of serving and a culture of serving because it\u2019s\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f13b2233a5641fb81c3f34fdf65a39b\u0022\u003EMark Cameron\u003C/span\u003E: How do you know she hasn\u2019t?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216c44ec661194021a497edbe098d7ce4\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, maybe she has, but, if she has, she\u2019s clearly forgotten. But the point around here is that I worked in a workplace at a time where 90-day trials were a thing and I\u2019ve seen firsthand how some of my former co-workers themselves were impacted by this. The fear of being unjustly dismissed, effectively, for just making the smallest of remarks that would have put off the manager, manager\u2019s using excuses to then get rid of workers that they just simply didn\u2019t like. This whole talk about \u201Cnot a good match\u201D is actually giving the ability to employers of getting rid of people who they just don\u2019t like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EAnd, actually, if the other side of the House wants to talk about putting more people into good jobs and supporting people to go into good jobs, all they\u2019re doing is actually creating a cycle and a trap of poverty by creating the conditions where people will be being cycled between poverty-level benefits and otherwise, and I\u2019ve seen that happen in my previous workplace. And to me, the other element that the Minister has submitted through this is that maybe, actually, what some of these businesses need is better management. They need better coaching for those new workers to be supported into those new jobs, and they need processes to on board people rather than simply giving themselves the ability to get rid of people. And if those businesses don\u2019t have a business model that can support on boarding those workers, and don\u2019t have hiring practices where they are able to identify who is going to be a good match, perhaps they need to go back to the drawing board about the business model that they have and the way that they\u2019re running businesses. Because if we want to create a condition where those businesses have a good working environment, we should be putting in place regulations that ensure those businesses have good management, good practices, rather than simply treating those workers as disposable units.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EClearly, the members of the Government have chosen to not bring any substance to the debate by not taking substantive contributions in this bill, making a disservice to the fact that they\u2019re putting this bill in urgency. All that they\u2019re doing is throwing the argument around that this is part of a coalition agreement, but, actually, good policy-making, good lawmaking, a good service to this whole country requires a level of scrutiny and justification for laws that have such a material impact on people well beyond what has been put forward by the Minister and by the very dutiful backbenchers who stand up with their 10-second contributions, get back down, and then they go back to their homes, go back to the cafes over the Christmas period, will be served in the restaurants by the very same workers who they\u2019re now telling that they should be able to be fired within 90 days of starting a new employment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EAnd, yes, maybe the Minister in her contributions claimed that no workers currently in employment may not be affected, but she forgets that those workers may go into new jobs where they will now face that precarity, where they\u2019ll now face that vulnerability, and none of the research that we have shows that decreasing working conditions increases productivity. The so-called flexibility that she wants to afford is only flexibility for the employers. She has nothing to be afraid of by actually giving those workers greater protections from abusive employers. But this Government is hell-bent on destroying the rights of workers, whether it is by extending the 90-day trials, whether it is by dismantling fair pay agreements, whether it is by removing other subsidies on public transport, etc.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EBut to bring it back to this bill, I wanted to also\u2014as the previous speaker, Camilla Belich, told us\u2014talk about some of the stories that had previously been brought forward when it came to the issue of 90-day trials. A few years ago, we heard from Andrew, who, actually, at the time was a National Party supporter and an industrial electrician by trade with over 30 years of experience. He spoke about his experience in a new job and how he was let go under the 90-day trial, how it came as a surprise to him because\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201CAt no time was I advised that my work wasn\u2019t up to scratch. My supervisor and I had an occasionally bumpy relationship, but nothing that the company seemed concerned about. It was certainly never taken up with me. When I specifically asked for the reason I had been let go, HR refused to tell me. Presumably, that was so I had no way of taking the matter further.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThis speaks of poor management practices which this Government is entrenching, which this Government does not seem to care about. They do not seem to care about people who will be now concerned whether they get let go during their first 90-day trials, who will not have the ability to raise this matter in a way that honours the experience they bring, that honours the contributions they brought to the workplace, that honours the fact that they will be thrown on to a benefit which in and of itself will decrease the overall wages and incomes that people receive. So let\u2019s make it clear, let\u2019s not pretend that, again, we don\u2019t know what this Government is doing. They\u2019re creating a low-wage economy. They\u2019re creating an economy of poor management practices. They\u2019re creating an economy where workers are set up to fail rather than set up to be supported and to thrive. And, yeah, as the Minister talked about, some of the people who will be subjected to 90-day trials may be first-time workers. This may be the first job they enter. And, again, the evidence and the research tell us that when those workers are supported in their first time working, if they receive good wages, if they receive good coaching, we\u2019re setting them up to succeed. If we put them in a precarious position where we\u2019re setting those young people up to fail, what we are doing is diminishing the wellbeing, the mana of those workers. And this is what the Government is intending to do by using the justification of maybe somebody who\u2019s new may not be a good match.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EWe actually should be creating the support system so that people can thrive in their work, and if they don\u2019t, then we need to create the income support systems to support them, then, to find a better job. But this Government wants to have it both ways. They want the ability to fire people in those 90-day trials, basically at will, and, at the same time, they want to keep that income support below the poverty line. And if I see the face of disgust of that member to the opposite of me, just being aghast of it, it\u2019s because maybe for those members, it\u2019s scary to imagine a world where employers don\u2019t have that full control over workers. It\u2019s the scary prospect of workers actually having power because it threatens the world view that these members were brought up with, where they\u2019ve been told that they can trample over workers, that they can come into this place and remove the rights of the workers because that will create a world where they continue having control over the systems they created in the first place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI look forward to challenging the Minister on her lack of evidence, on her lack of basis for bringing this bill into the House, and on the cruelty in which she is bringing this bill forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022 data-id=\u00226a594561a8564766875b43dcacb25f4b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a594561a8564766875b43dcacb25f4b\u0022\u003EKATIE NIMON (National\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to speak on the amendment bill in this second reading. I want to address the claims of the members opposite that people will lose their jobs or be exploited. This is scaremongering. They speak as if every employee is now going to work on a 90-day only contract. The 90-day trial is yet another tool that gives employers and employees flexibility. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022\u003EHow many times has somebody missed out on a job because of a lack of experience? How do they get that experience? Someone gives them a shot. I want to cultivate a relationship between employer and employee, not take it out of their hands and destroy it. I commend this bill to the House, and I hope it to be amended promptly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022 data-id=\u0022492388c74450470dbaf8ec4df968cbcb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022492388c74450470dbaf8ec4df968cbcb\u0022\u003EHon MARK PATTERSON (Minister for Rural Communities):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First rises to continue our support for this Employment Relations (Trial Periods) Amendment Bill. I\u2019m really interested because, during our last term in Parliament, we had some part to play in protecting the 90-day trials for businesses under 20 employees. I remember it being quite a pitched battle behind the scenes, but we were proud to do that because we believe in the merits of this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003ESo the question I would have for the members opposite: if it\u2019s such a dire situation, why, in the three years when the Labour Party had a majority Government, did you not get rid of the 90-day trials? Why did you not do that? If it was that dire, you would have done that. So this is virtue signalling in extreme from those members opposite. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EIt was a very wise move from New Zealand First in our previous term to protect those measures, so we absolutely support the emphasis of this bill. Out in the real world, good workers are highly valued. Any employer you talk to, they are screaming out for good workers. They are not just culling people willy-nilly because of their hair colour, Camilla Belich, and they\u2019re not evil people. They are capitalists. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226547a80550ac4c619893c3803dd1ee74\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: They are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f020b8f53e4144809b56916eff459326\u0022\u003EHon MARK PATTERSON\u003C/span\u003E: They are people that are\u2014they are not\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263c756622bc847f7b863be9fe687b102\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: They are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022123cbbb8421c4b70be1c679b34899c0b\u0022\u003EHon MARK PATTERSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014the Hon Willie Jackson\u2014that shows your mentality. You\u2019ve got such a vexed view of these New Zealanders that are risking their own capital, often putting their own houses in to actually give someone an opportunity to have a job. It is a huge responsibility, but we need to get flexibility back into our workforce. We need to get confidence back into our business communities so they can hire and start to grow this economy so that we can start to deliver the services that we need. New Zealand First absolutely supports this piece of legislation. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00220ff79a1bd1f34c7ba173d7440144d511\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ff79a1bd1f34c7ba173d7440144d511\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: He tauk\u012B weherua t\u0113nei i waenga i Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori me ng\u0101 K\u0101k\u0101riki. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E[This is a split call between Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori and the Greens.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc5d3846310445769240cc27af58186b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc5d3846310445769240cc27af58186b\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Hauraki-Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 t\u0101tou e te Whare. E t\u016B ana ahau ki te waha i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero a Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori i te rangi m\u014D t\u0113nei pire. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E[I stand here today to convey the opinions of Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori regarding this bill.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EI rise on behalf of Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori to speak to the second reading of the Employment Relations (Trial Periods) Amendment Bill\u2014my first reading of a bill in te Whare P\u0101remata. This bill will reintroduce the ability of all employers to hire employees on the condition of a 90-day trial period, or otherwise known as \u201Clast hired, first fired\u201D. The decision of this House will affect all houses throughout Aotearoa this Christmas, making it harder to put kai on the table, presents for tamariki, and gas for travelling away over the Christmas holidays.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003ENinety-day trials are simply a way of employers getting around the employment law, and sacking workers more easily for no cause. How can the first actions of this Government literally sprint through legislation under urgency that will keep wages low and erode workers\u2019 rights? This kind of employment practice should have no place in Aotearoa. What our wh\u0101nau need at Christmas is better p\u016Btea, better mahi, better workers\u2019 rights. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EThe Key-led National Government were responsible for establishing the trial period. It tested the scheme in small businesses for some industries in 2009, rolling it out nationwide in 2011. As a rangatahi M\u0101ori myself, I fear that many rangatahi from Hauraki, Waikato, and throughout the motu will apply for jobs during this Christmas break, in December, and be fired mid-March under this 90-day trial period. A Treasury study in 2017 found that 90-day trial periods had no significant economy-wide impact or increases beyond what was already achievable without it. Our people deserve job security. Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori opposed this introduction of 90-day trials when National first introduced them in 2009. We remain opposed to them today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori are much more likely to be in industries that will be impacted, and the policy enables employers to get away with racism more easily. This bill tramples on the mana of mokopuna, as the policy is designed, and rangatahi in making it harder for them to get into the job market. The impact on M\u0101ori, particularly rangatahi M\u0101ori and those in construction and retail industries, will be significant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EThis Government has championed that this country wanted change, but they have failed to understand the change people advocated for. Instead, they have put us all into a time machine and taken us back to a time when answering the phone call with \u201CKia ora\u201D was racial. What will negatively impact M\u0101ori will have the same effect on everyone else. The heart of this issue is that it is treating people\u2014actual human beings\u2014as if they are limited, expendable, and disposable. Heoti, e te P\u012Bka o te Whare, Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori opposes this anti-worker, anti-M\u0101ori, anti-mokopuna, anti - Te Tiriti o Waitangi bill. N\u014D reira, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022 data-id=\u0022815bbee18e044694995ed2152e3b0759\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022815bbee18e044694995ed2152e3b0759\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL (Green\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks, Mr Speaker. I\u2019m really glad to follow my eloquent sister Hana-Rawhiti here today to oppose this bill in front of us. I\u2019ve heard members shouting, the whole time I\u2019ve been here, about how there is evidence for what they\u2019re proposing, but we know that there is not. When you press them on where they got their evidence from, they come back and say they\u2019ve talked to employers, but it\u2019s clear they haven\u2019t talked to any workers about what they\u2019re actually doing, and I wonder if that\u2019s because those members only ever ask to speak to the manager instead of speaking to the workers that serve them\u2014that bring them their coffees and serve them their food. To me, this bill just emphasises the fact that this Government hates the people that carry the country on their backs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EThe one thing I want to talk about is the effect of this bill on workers\u2019 rights and the rights of all workers to be able to be in a working environment that is safe and free from discrimination. I want to talk about the hundreds of young people that have taken to the streets of Wellington because they face discrimination, sexual violence, harm, and harassment in their workplace, particularly around times like this: summer times, Christmas times. When you\u2019re at a Christmas party and your employer gets a little bit too drunk and makes a move on you, what are you going to do if you\u2019re in your first 90 days? You can\u2019t do anything. You can\u2019t take a personal grievance. You can\u2019t do anything about that, and this is the kind of effect that this kind of bill will have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248c2e7d194744dc39adefb5fdb5c06b8\u0022\u003ESam Uffindell\u003C/span\u003E: You can\u2019t sexually harass people. Of course you can push back against that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bf90b7d2ee84dd18969d626f78e7855\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2014are you saying that victims of sexual violence should just go through the justice system that does not centre the rights of survivors? It doesn\u2019t. Anyway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EThe second thing that I want to focus on is discrimination for the way that people look and the way that they think. People getting let go for what they look like\u2014we\u2019ve heard about that today. You can be fired for something as small as the colour of your hair, if you have tattoos, if you say the wrong thing while you\u2019re in the smoko room. You can be let go because\u2014guess what!\u2014it\u2019s completely arbitrary and it\u2019s up to your employer to make up those rules. You are no longer protected by the same rights as everybody else. This is not the type of working environment that any young person wants to find themselves in and it\u2019s another reason that people in my generation are going to go off to Australia, because they\u2019re going to be paid better, they\u2019re going to have better working conditions, and they\u2019re going to feel safe at work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EThere is no evidence behind this. It\u2019s another cruel blow to workers after this Government just scrapped fair pay agreements right before Christmas. The worst thing is the members across the House can\u2019t even give the basic decency of explaining why you\u2019re doing what it is. I\u2019ve been sitting here; you\u2019ve been giving 30-second speeches, sometimes\u201430 seconds is the only decency that you\u2019re giving to workers about why you\u2019re taking their rights away. You can\u2019t even give a fair and robust debate about what you\u2019re doing, and you don\u2019t have any evidence to back it, either.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022045b0fb04bdc44a9b61c520c33e3c27f\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Please don\u2019t bring the Speaker into the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efad4492e8c244aa992b7c59df4ade18\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that\u2019s all I\u2019ve got to say, anyway. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022 data-id=\u0022584d2f9f3e064e7a84cbb0e2fd081b7c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000846\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022584d2f9f3e064e7a84cbb0e2fd081b7c\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise as the son, the grandson, and the great-grandson of business owners\u2014people who have put their own capital at risk to employ people and give opportunities\u2014and I think today of Colin Tyson-Tahana, who was the first person that started in my dad\u2019s plumbing business. In fact, he was the first person that came to the hospital the day I was born. I was thinking earlier in the year, when I was at Te Manu Atat\u016B Business Awards in Whanganui\u2014when even the local MP wasn\u2019t there\u2014how proud he would have been of his son who won a business award in a plumbing category. An opportunity that came because in those days, people understood that employer and employee had to work together to make business successful in order to provide opportunity for all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000847\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003EThis bill provides those opportunities to new employees today. Members opposite would do well to appreciate that business is a relationship between employers and employees. So I finally say that data from the 2018-19 National Survey of Employers said that this opportunity enabled people\u2014employers\u2014the opportunity to check a person\u2019s skills and ability to do the job. So the evidence is there to commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u0022c3cee985341543569addb37846b928d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000848\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c3cee985341543569addb37846b928d6\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Madam Speaker. Another fabulous speech from the Government! Yes, there must be a lot of aroha there in the Whanganui area. I want to mihi to Hana and Tamatha for that beautiful k\u014Drero in terms of tautoko for our people. Mihi nui ki a k\u014Drua k\u014Drero ataahua. Tino waim\u0101rie m\u0101tou ki te whakarongo ki t\u0113r\u0101 k\u014Drero. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E[Thanks to the two of you for your beautiful words. We are very fortunate to listen to those statements.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000850\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EIt is wonderful when I hear our young w\u0101hine giving their views, because these are the views of our young people today. They really object and reject this type of legislation. I was listening very carefully to what both of them were saying in terms of the breach of rights, the assault on rights, and the helplessness of some workers who feel intimidated with the position they\u2019re in. They\u2019re nervous to complain, and we had a very genuine example there of young w\u0101hine who may be harassed in the workplace. I was listening to that example, and I thought that was a very good example. They\u2019re a bit mataku, or a bit nervous perhaps, to complain for fear of losing the contract. It\u2019s pretty simple, but it\u2019s far too complex for this Government, who are so fixed on this and hell-bent on rolling out strategies that are, basically, offensive to our communities, the communities we represent\u2014to M\u0101ori, to women. So I was really pleased to hear that k\u014Drero early on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000851\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EWhen I sit here, I listen to the market flexibility arguments, and I always believe that that\u2019s a load of rubbish that we hear from the Government with regards to market flexibility. The fair pay agreements would have ensured that the so-called market flexibility\u2014there was no barrier in terms of fair pay agreements stopping market flexibility, but there\u2019s always this view that productivity, above everything, even common sense, is paramount, and that\u2019s something that we always get from the right. We continue to hear it, but they never see the results. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000852\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003ENow, this Government is ramming this legislation through with no public consultation before Christmas\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000853\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b47ec40a2e9b4cd4b07aa732653139ab\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s called an election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b6042cc463b43d4b4153d070629e357\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: An election does not give any Government the right to breach\u2014to breach\u2014the principles that they waffle on about all the time. We\u2019ve heard Chris Bishop saying so many times over the last few years that it\u2019s virtually a breach of democracy to roll out urgency. We\u2019ve heard Chris Bishop in this House say that, but, oh, no, he\u2019s apologising now because he wants to appease and placate his dirty, rotten mates on the right\u2014Madam Speaker, I say that very respectfully\u2014and he wants to appease and placate the dirty, rotten National Party and ACT supporters, and so he brings in urgency just to get this terrible legislation through. Here we are, five days from Christmas, and all we can think about is our rich mates on the right\u2014we just want to look after them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003ENow, I want to bring in this research from Motu in 2016. This was commissioned by Treasury and it found no evidence that the ability to use trial periods significantly increases firms\u2019 overall hiring, and no evidence that the policy increased the probability that a new hire by a firm was a disadvantaged job seeker. Research also showed that it did not appear to affect the likelihood of new hires remaining in the long term or make workers less likely to move jobs. The research, as I said, was commissioned by Treasury, and we choose to ignore them, as this Government is doing. The research concluded that \u201Cthe main benefit of the policy was a decrease in dismissal costs for firms, while many employees faced increased uncertainty about their job security for three months after being hired.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003ESo let me reread that for this new far-right, race-baiting Government. It said that the main benefit of the 90-day right to sack policy \u201Cwas a decrease in dismissal costs for firms, while many employees faced increased uncertainty about their job security for three months after being hired.\u201D\u2014many employees faced increased uncertainty. I say that again about their job security for three months after being hired. I mean, that\u2019s just terrible. So the reason why the Government is giving bosses the right to sack doesn\u2019t stack up. All it does is intimidate workers\u2014that\u2019s just the reality. Now, that\u2019s official, but as we all know, the Government knows best, because their grandfather invested in their useless son, who came to Parliament\u2014something along those lines. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EIntimidated workers, as we\u2019ve heard already, don\u2019t complain about poor safety conditions, and I know this, coming from the workplace. Intimidated workers don\u2019t complain about abusive bosses or, sometimes, sexual harassment. Intimidated workers don\u2019t sign up as union members\u2014it\u2019s so sad\u2014and intimidated workers are a Christmas present for bad bosses, whom this Government wants to empower. We support small businesses and their right to a 90-day rule because a business with under 19 employees needs that support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9a565d54f2a49a1b54b9e134ff73315\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: Show us how you support businesses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee517e14016241b5b944b765ab78cd2c\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we have shown you how. We have shown you how over the last few years, but you choose to ignore that. You choose to breach your own rules, your own principles, the very tenets of democracy that you love to waffle on about, but when you get a bit of power, you go crazy and attack communities: M\u0101oris, workers, women\u2014everyone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EWe support small business. We can all understand, though, that small businesses don\u2019t have large HR departments to vigorously vet potential workers lending a pressure valve if they hire a poor fit for a small business, but extending that to large corporations and companies who do have large HR departments means bad bosses who want to exploit are given more power to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000861\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EThis Government is standing with those who already have the power, and ramming legislation through under urgency with no public submissions is an abuse of power for the powerful. This is a Government for the few, not for the many. It\u2019s a kick in the guts to the many working-class families that their ability to get minimum wage jobs will actually be intimidated and threatened by the legislation, not enabled and empowered by it. That is why this legislation is so offensive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EThis far-right, race-baiting Government will tell you this law\u2014[Interruption] That\u2019s true. I think we\u2019re all agreed on this side\u2014we all agree with that, don\u2019t we? I\u2019ll say it again\u2014this far-right, race-baiting Government will tell you this law will allow bosses to take on more workers, as if giving large corporations the right to sack before 90 days is helping the worker. Only National, ACT, and New Zealand First can kick workers in the guts and then call it a helping hand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EWe hear them: \u201COh, we\u2019re helping them. We love them.\u201D\u2014oh, great, yes. The research, however, shows that the only discernible gain is a drop in the cost of dismissals and making workers feel bullied. Bullying anxious workers into being intimidated helps no one other than the boss who is exploiting the dynamics\u2014as we keep hearing from our side\u2014in that power relationship. The employment laws should be there to protect the vulnerable, not empower the bullies, who are all great friends of the ACT Party, National Party, and New Zealand First. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000864\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EThis really is a disgraceful piece of legislation. The common thread of policy this Government is ramming through right now is bashing people their voters don\u2019t like. That\u2019s malice, not good policy. Good governance demands more than empowering your abusive friends of your political circle, which this crew is doing. There\u2019s no sense in this law and no wider public good other than benefiting bad bosses. It\u2019s counter-productive and it is offensive to the communities and the people we represent, and we reject it and oppose this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca608ff6e5964e209cf899dda28423d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca608ff6e5964e209cf899dda28423d1\u0022\u003EMIKE BUTTERICK (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. The bit the other side over here continually seem to miss is that the extension of the 90-day trials works both ways. That\u2019s both ways: for the employer and the employee. This country\u2019s been built on a premise of having a go\u2014giving people a go\u2014having a fair suck of the sav. It\u2019s not about exploitation\u2014that\u2019s rubbish. It\u2019s about creating opportunities for employment, and that\u2019s why I\u2019m pleased to support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022 data-id=\u00221ced08a83d2e4f04ac283b28053b1770\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ced08a83d2e4f04ac283b28053b1770\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks, Madam Speaker. I acknowledge you, Maureen, in your new role as Speaker\u2014fellow resident of Te Wai Pounamu, or, if you\u2019re from the New Zealand First Party, the South Island. This is my first time speaking in the House. I\u2019d like to thank the voters of Christchurch East for backing me to get here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EThis is about balance, it\u2019s about fairness, it\u2019s about power, and, most importantly, it\u2019s about people. I want to speak about this from the perspective of an employer, because that\u2019s a perspective I\u2019ve known firsthand and it\u2019s not, as some members across the House would have you believe, the exclusive purview of ACT, National, and New Zealand First MPs. I\u2019ve directly employed a large number of people across more than two decades working in the broadcast industry\u2014a very diverse range of roles in a fast-paced and challenging work environment. I believe that we have a responsibility as employers, and if we get it wrong, it\u2019s more often our fault, not the employees. Did we provide the induction, orientation, and training and support required? Is the job we created on paper even plausible in reality?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000868\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EOur team have also employed people, but, more than that, we\u2019ve represented them, we\u2019ve fought for them, and we don\u2019t claim to own our workers, but we definitely respect them. Ninety-day trials do not respect workers, and 90-day trials won\u2019t be fair for the working people of Christchurch East. Don\u2019t take just my word for it; a rare thing in the House at the moment is a regulatory impact statement\u2014so rare, I can\u2019t even say it properly. It spells it out\u2014spells it out\u2014on page 1, \u201Cinsecurity for employees\u201D. Turn to page 7, paragraph 26, point 2: Pacific peoples; 26, point 4: people working in the construction, wholesale trade, retail trade, and hospitality industries; 26, point 5: people earning lower wages. These are the people of Christchurch East that I represent. These are the people who will not be served by this change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000869\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ENo one I met during my time in the election campaigning asked for less job security. If this Government was a Christmas movie, it wouldn\u2019t be Love, Actually; it would be The Grinch. But, jokes aside\u2014jokes aside\u2014it is disappointing to see the select committee process dodged for such an important decision. That\u2019s not good governance and it doesn\u2019t respect workers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000870\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EBefore I finish, I\u2019d like to ask that member to take a moment\u2014take a moment to consider the 90-day trial. Do you really believe in it? Do you really believe in the 90-day trial? Because, if you do, live by it, and put yourselves as a Government on a 90-day trial. The election was on 14 October\u2014that\u2019s when you got your mandate, that\u2019s when this Government was hired, so, on 12 January, that\u2019ll be 90 days. I look forward to a referendum to their employers, the voters of Aotearoa New Zealand: do they think this Government is capable of doing the job they were hired for? Do they want to keep them? Would you give your employers, the voters of New Zealand, the chance to have that say on 12\u00A0January? Right now, I don\u2019t think they would.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022 data-id=\u002208efb95cba5b4504a827d5ace703a6ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000871\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208efb95cba5b4504a827d5ace703a6ff\u0022\u003ETIM COSTLEY (National\u2014\u014Ctaki):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I understand the ideological need that maybe members opposite feel to oppose this out of principle\u2014until there is 15 minutes until dinner!\u2014but I actually believe in 90-day trials and am happy to stand by our 100-day plan. The people of New Zealand voted for it at the start. They\u2019re getting what they voted for, and I can tell you what the people in the good \u014Ctaki electorate want: they want a go, they want to have a fair crack at it, they want an opportunity. Then you talk to employers in my electorate\u2014talk to them across the country\u2014it\u2019s a risk; they\u2019re putting their money upfront. They\u2019re creating the opportunity. That\u2019s how this economy is driven\u2014it\u2019s people like that giving someone a go. I\u2019ve had family members that directly benefit from this. So we need to give people a go. That\u2019s why I\u2019m commending this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u0022b4d8377eab264eec94e79bf48606f6f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000872\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b4d8377eab264eec94e79bf48606f6f5\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m just going to comment on the comments that I\u2019ve just heard, which were that they create this and they give these people an opportunity\u2014fairly paternalistic language. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000873\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI gave an example in my earlier speech of a woman who goes from a minimum wage job into a job at Starbucks. That person is contributing to the workforce as soon as she arrives, and she\u2019s the very person that I\u2019m worried about because of the vulnerability that she has inherently. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000874\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI have long experience as an employment lawyer, and I did that job because I was concerned about power imbalance. There is always a value in employment. It is a huge deal in our society, but both parties are valuable. It isn\u2019t a case of people giving others an opportunity and nothing coming back; it\u2019s reciprocal, and there\u2019s no balance in this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000875\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EA balance has been struck where smaller employers are allowed a different set of rules from big ones. The advantages that are being given today by the National Government are advantages to large employers. Large employers are the ones that we hope will have the best and most robust and most fair processes. What that will do is it will mean that lots of people in New Zealand\u2014I think the amount quoted was 76 percent of New Zealanders\u2014will be working in environments which are structured and are robust, and it is not a lot to ask that those businesses reflect our values and are fair businesses that treat people fairly. What this law is suggesting is that they no longer have to do that. I\u2019d like to go back to the comments of my friend Willie Jackson, who talked about the actual precariousness and fear of those workers, because that\u2019s what I have seen and that\u2019s what I am concerned about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000876\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EIf you can be dismissed in 90 days, it is an issue that if somebody makes a pass at you, if they say something inappropriate, or if they treat you badly, you are going to be fearful. You cannot afford, if you are like the woman that I described earlier, to actually go out on a limb in any way. You can\u2019t afford to question the dynamic in the workplace. So it is a risky situation. It is precarious\u2014you can\u2019t afford to lose your job. Now, you might be able to afford to lose it if you\u2019re on 180,000 bucks, but you really can\u2019t afford to lose it if you\u2019re on $70,000 a year and you\u2019ve got three children to support, and you\u2019re not going to be able to lose it next year\u2014you\u2019re not going to be able to afford that kind of risk because the costs that you will be suffering at that point are quite high. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000877\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI talked about the connection between this legislation and the other proposals of this Government which are to gut things like free childcare and half-price transport\u2014all of which support our families and women like the one I described. These are a big deal. We have just fought an election on the basis of the cost of living, and I would ask for a little bit of empathy and reflection about who it is who most needs help in a cost of living crisis. It is the worker on those kinds of salaries. They\u2019re the ones, and these are the very people that this law makes vulnerable as soon as they move jobs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000878\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ENow, there is a concept called portability of employment and there\u2019s a concept called flexibility, and I want to draw a comparison. The concept of portability of employment is now being used in America, and it\u2019s about making sure that workers can move. They can move up in the world and they can actually move around the workplace. That is an employee-centric, positive approach to getting some flexibility, but that\u2019s not what this Government has focused on. It\u2019s focused on a kind of flexibility that\u2019s all about stripping workers of all their power. That, apparently, is supposed to miraculously help them. It\u2019s supposed to help them, and we\u2019ve heard that today, that workers are, apparently, begging for the opportunity to be exploited\u2014to be in situations of vulnerability. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000879\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI have put up a challenge to you, and I will put it up again when we go into the committee stage. I will say to the Government: why don\u2019t you have a look at some methods of portability? Why don\u2019t you free up these employees that you are so freeing up to flexibility\u2014why don\u2019t you free them up from things like restraints of trade, which big corporations like Amazon and Starbucks are stopping people moving on with, and those sorts of things? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000880\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI want to see your money where your mouth is, in the Government. I want to see the Government look at those things that are constraining those workers from moving up in careers, rather than these kinds of forms of flexibility. What they, in fact, do is constrain employees and keep them in low-paid work, because, as I explained, a woman who has three children and who is working in her locality cannot afford to move to an employer who is going to put her on this kind of trial if the risk is that she will get fired for no good cause in 90 days. She cannot afford to take that risk, and that actually would be a pathway, usually, for her to increase her income. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000881\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI love the idea of a kind of response to the cost of living which is actually about letting people have a decent go and move up in a workforce. So I want to see that, and I challenge the Government to look much more broadly and creatively. Those members are not going to get the opportunity that, in fact, they should have had in a select committee to hear such ideas, to hear such stories, or to hear the stories of people who have been hurt when they\u2019ve been vulnerable. There are so many stories out there because there are many forms of this vulnerability. The Government is not going to get to hear those stories, and the New Zealand public are not going to get to tell those stories, and there won\u2019t be a lot of listening or learning going on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000882\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EBut I challenge the Government to have a little bit of empathy and to put yourselves into the boots of the person who is the woman I\u2019m talking about, who has the three kids, who\u2019s on $70,000, who works in a minimum wage job, and who just wants to feed her kids and get ahead. Put yourself into her shoes and ask yourself whether, in fact, in that situation, it would be some job that you\u2019re willing to do and what you would do in those circumstances. If you were in that role, what would you do? Would you move into another job which might pay a little bit more if, in fact, it\u2019s risky? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000883\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s my great concern, which is that this will be a movement backwards and that we will see people become more vulnerable and we will see the most vulnerable become more vulnerable as a consequence of this law. I don\u2019t agree that there\u2019s a need to rush this through or that there is nothing to discuss here. It\u2019s a fundamentally different concept, bringing this kind of trial in when we are talking about big business, because, as I have said in my earlier speech, this is actually a situation where big business could put their big pants on, get a decent process together, and treat workers right. They could get a decent culture and they could do those things, and everyone would be better off. That\u2019s a better way to handle that situation, rather than saying that they don\u2019t have to have a process and they don\u2019t have to have fairness, and taking down the standard in our whole society. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000884\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EThat is a very sad outcome indeed, and who\u2019s going to pay the ultimate cost for this degrading of the culture to the point where somebody is dismissed? I take you back to this woman who was working in my community. Her kids go to the local schools. Who is going to pay the price if she takes the job at Starbucks and then she loses the job due to a trial period? Actually, it\u2019s going to be all of us. All New Zealanders are going to have to pay the price, because that woman is going to be right on to the benefit. That\u2019s what\u2019s going to happen. We will be paying the price, and there is no reason for that to occur when, in fact\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002289bfd9addeb74f0fac7e4f89004e084e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000885\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002289bfd9addeb74f0fac7e4f89004e084e\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022 data-id=\u0022b3945c517f4f463a87ba111d3146defb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b3945c517f4f463a87ba111d3146defb\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I rise in support of the Employment Relations (Trial Periods) Amendment Bill. What\u2019s become quite clear is it\u2019s obvious what we\u2019re starting to see from the outside of the House now is their pure hatred of big business. These are the people that actually employ people and run businesses, drive our economy\u2014and they don\u2019t care about them. That is what they\u2019re, effectively, saying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000887\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003EWhat we care about is giving all individuals an opportunity to have a good job\u2014and good employers do that. Employers actually don\u2019t wake up in the morning and say, \u201CWe\u2019re just going to get rid of people for the heck of it.\u201D When they employ someone, you advertise, you interview\u2014it\u2019s a real process and a cost. So big business, just like small business, doesn\u2019t want to waste money. They want to employ good people, and this will help them do it. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f89756c40e4d4dbdb1800788308d8e56\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Employment Relations (Trial Periods) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000888\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b24d5592bad041369936022bd464d2d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b24d5592bad041369936022bd464d2d0\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The bill is set down for committee stage immediately. I declare the House in committee for consideration of the Employment Relations (Trial Periods) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000890\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224b970873ebf74f7b92dbc44d9202f63b\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000891\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f567418a67164fd0a3f15c2e8e2bb992\u0022\u003EClause 1  Title\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00227a26fb8dca32421688b69da5a798d552\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000892\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a26fb8dca32421688b69da5a798d552\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Employment Relations (Trial Periods) Amendment Bill. This bill is drafted in clauses. We will debate the bill clause by clause, starting with clause 1. Members may wish to consider Speakers\u2019 ruling 127/2, which indicates that clause by clause debates are generally narrow and should confine themselves to the words of the particular clause and issues contained in them. Having said that, because the bill has not been to a select committee, the debate on clause 1 may be more broadly about the bill\u2014Speaker\u2019s ruling 127/1. Members, we come first to clause 1. This is the debate on the title. The question is that clause 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022220914004d0f4b80ab6e6c05312e3345\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022220914004d0f4b80ab6e6c05312e3345\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, for allowing me the opportunity to participate in this debate on this bill, which, as you have correctly stated, is not a particularly long bill but particularly impactful to a large proportion of the population.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000894\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EIn relation to clause 1 that we are debating at the moment, I think there is an amendment on the table, from one of my colleagues, to amend the name of this bill because I think that there could be other titles that could be more appropriate to the Act than actually the Employment Relation (Trial Periods) Amendment Bill. Actually, what this bill does is not just amend trial periods, it takes it from a rather smaller proportion of the population\u2014and that\u2019s 28 percent of the population that are currently covered by trial periods, if they are new to their employment\u2014to 100 percent of the population, or almost 100 percent of the population. I do have a question for the Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety around that. I\u2019m just trying to think where the correct place in the bill would be to discuss that, and, I think, probably the title clause, as you\u2019ve said, because it can be slightly more widely interpreted, might be the best part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000895\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EIn the regulatory impact statement, which I do commend for being very thorough and going through a lot of the details surrounding the bill and citing a lot of the evidence relevant to this bill, one particular area is noted that is excluded from employers being able to implement trial periods within their employment agreements. It\u2019s not particularly mentioned in the bill, so that\u2019s why I\u2019m bringing it to your attention in clause 1. But, in terms of my suggested amendment\u2014my colleagues have another suggested amendment that this more correctly reflect the fact that we\u2019re going from a small percentage of the population to a large percent of the population being covered by trial periods.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000896\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s important to ask, I think, the Minister at this stage about the accredited employer work visa, which, as I understand, are covered by the immigration rules, which would, effectively, mean that people coming into work in New Zealand won\u2019t be able to be covered by trial periods, and New Zealanders who already are here, working, would be covered by trial periods. Of course, I\u2019m not advocating for a further extension of that. I think that it\u2019s better if fewer people are covered by trial periods. I agree with the regulatory impact statement, which states the status quo is the best and most preferable option here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000897\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EBut I do think it\u2019s an unusual position to be in to be saying to people under the accredited employer work visa scheme that it is not appropriate for you to be covered by trial periods but it is indeed appropriate for everyone else not covered by that visa to be covered. So I wanted to ask the Minister about advice on that, in relation to this first clause of that bill, and also to consider if she has, in fact, considered a more accurate title for the bill. If you were to read the title of this bill, you may perceive that this is a small amendment. In fact, actually, it extends the coverage of the trial periods quite considerably from only 28 percent of the population who enter into new jobs, to, in fact, the entire population of employees. So those are my, really, initial questions for the Minister, in relation to the first clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u00225faec8a133254f79bf2d8e200d3e5eb0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000898\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225faec8a133254f79bf2d8e200d3e5eb0\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciate the guidance around how this debate will be carried, particularly the ability to analyse it more broadly due to there not being a select committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000899\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI want to pick up on the previous speaker Camilla Belich\u2019s comments regarding the interactions with the immigration system. I also wanted to get a sense of whether there has been any exploration of the interactions with the migrant exploitation protection visa. So, for example, currently if somebody has been abused or has received comments in relation to their hair or their weight, or has faced harassment in workplaces where 90-day trials don\u2019t apply, the employer wouldn\u2019t be able just to get rid of that worker to avoid having to go through a process where that worker raises those harassment issues. I\u2019m just wondering, then, after this bill, whether the use of the 90-day trials to get rid of workers where instances of harassment or exploitation would have occurred could still trigger eligibility for the migrant exploitation protection visa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000900\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ae0a95659c14d2ab0a4045dc0d9e8f9\u0022\u003EStuart Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. We are debating clause 1. I haven\u2019t really heard anything relating to clause 1 in the member\u2019s speech so far.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000901\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292e1ca57339746b498f259b5ee4be476\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. In the opening remarks I made, I did make comment that the debate on clause 1 may be more broadly about the bill, given the lack of select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000902\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b499ce5e112c41b98bf7a204b31db359\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: I appreciate that, Madam Chair. Why I\u2019m taking the opportunity to bring that up here is because it\u2019s important to unpack the level of advice and consideration that would have been given in relation to this bill. And I think the title clause is where it\u2019s most appropriate to raise this because, ultimately, there will be interactions with other parts of the system as a result of this bill and otherwise it\u2019s kind of hard to point it out elsewhere. So the question I had was: has the Minister received or sought any advice regarding how these changes interact with the migrant exploitation protection visa?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000903\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI also wanted to get a sense of, for example, whether there had been any advice sought on the impact of wage scarring\u2014whether 90-day trials would have contributed to wage scarring as a result of people entering below the poverty-level benefits, and then that potentially impacting the wages that people then receive after to try to get out of the poverty-level benefit. Because, ultimately\u2014and why I think this is important to unpack at this point\u2014the Minister, in her previous contributions in the debate, talked about how this bill would help increase productivity and would benefit the economy, but we know that wage scarring is one of those things that can contribute to lower productivity and can contribute to a low-wage economy. So I\u2019m just keen to understand whether she sought any advice in relation to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022 data-id=\u002273c98ecf0cc94d23bd41fd678bd98d0a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000904\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002273c98ecf0cc94d23bd41fd678bd98d0a\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I thought I\u2019d take an early call to make sure that we are brought back to the specific bill. Both the member Camilla Belich and Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March raised issues about migrant workers and the accredited employer work visa. I can let both members know that immigration instructions set out the accredited employer work visas, not the Employment Relations Act. So there is no change to that specific area of law or regulation, because that\u2019s not actually in the Employment Relations Act, and we should come back to the bill. The issue is outside of my portfolio powers and therefore outside of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00226f147e2d17264475bc09e3ce4564085a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000905\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f147e2d17264475bc09e3ce4564085a\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, for the opportunity to ask a few specific questions about clause 1, given that we are simply talking about the naming provisions around the bill, and then, more broadly, the bill, because we haven\u2019t had a select committee stage. So I\u2019ll ask the questions of the Minister first so that she has time to consider them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000906\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThere is an amendment in my name to change the title of this bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000907\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278cfdf03a5fc42fc96569da55e9d2db1\u0022\u003EStuart Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Busy member!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000908\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f101610873dd4715a3aa082108757ec7\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014to acknowledge that\u2014very busy member. Thank you to the honourable member for recognising how hard I am working to improve this legislation for the Minister. My amendment would recognise that this is a renewal of a provision that has existed in law before, and my questions to the Minister are about certainty for employers, for employees, and for organisations that represent employees and workers\u2014about these amendments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000909\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo my first question to the Minister about the proposal of mine to change the name, to recognise that this is a renewal, is about what the legislative history of the amendments to trial has been. I\u2019m particularly interested in the number of times that this legislation has been brought in and then taken off the statute book, given that I think we need to have in our legislation a proper recognition that there is very little certainty for employers and for employees around these clauses. And that will point us, as a Parliament, to the need for some shared understanding in the House around provisions that could give employers further certainty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMy second question to the Minister is about how employees and employers can look at the history of legislative amendments and gain some help with the kind of individual and collective agreements that exist between them so that they can live on through changes of Government policy in this area. I\u2019d like the Minister\u2019s answers to those questions before I ask any further questions, but I hope that she would consider the change in the name of the bill that I propose which would recognise that this is a reinstatement or a renewal of the provisions which existed before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022 data-id=\u00228f2a0565e69a47bc8daae653771133c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000911\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228f2a0565e69a47bc8daae653771133c3\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much. Look, I don\u2019t support the amendments to the title clause of this bill from either that member or Camilla Belich\u2019s concern about the Hon Duncan Webb\u2019s proposed amendment to the title clause. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000912\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EBut specifically talking to your question about the historical amendments of trial periods, I would simply refer that member to my first reading speech, which was not that long ago. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u002271e6b87d15dd417c91a24df7f3340326\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000913\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271e6b87d15dd417c91a24df7f3340326\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you Madam Chair, and I thank the Minister for her comments around my last contribution and also her confirmation that indeed it will be the case that those covered under the accredited employer work visa will not have trial periods, whereas the rest of New Zealand will.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000914\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI wanted to ask a follow up question to the member around\u2014even though I understand it\u2019s in a different Act and it is under the immigration instructions which is perhaps not her portfolio\u2014if she has discussed this matter with the Minister of Immigration in relation to the intersection of the two different portfolios that are relevant today. And, also, to note that in the last bill the Minister oversaw, the Fair Pay Agreements Act Repeal Bill, there was an amendment to the Employment Relations Act, which is, as she\u2019s correctly noted in this instance, a totally different Act as well. So these matters do come up from time to time, and I wanted to know, following her earlier contributions in reply to my question, if she had in fact engaged in any advice or turned her mind to that. I do note that it is included in the regulatory impact statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000915\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo the other things that I wanted to comment on is also to support the amendments put forward by Duncan Webb and Arena Williams in relation to the titles. I don\u2019t think I mentioned the titles when I last made a contribution, but it was Duncan Webb\u2019s amendment that I was referring to. So just for the benefit of the Chamber, the amendment is to change the title from the current title, the Employment Relations (Trial Periods) Amendment Bill, to \u201CThis Act is to Legalise Unjustified Dismissal (Employment Relations Amendment Act) 2023\u201D, more effectively encompassing, I think, the purpose of the Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000916\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EAdditionally, I support the amendment of my colleague Arena Williams, who referred to wanting to change it to the \u201CEmployment Relations (Trial Period Renewal) Bill\u201D. That is because this has come up a number of times and it is a change back from a previous policy which was adopted in, I think, 2017 to restrict the number of employers who are able to engage in trial periods to, in fact, include that to be a larger number. So I think that title, in reference to clause 1 of the bill, more effectively conveys the meaning of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000917\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo I wondered, primarily, to note her comments on the title, but wanted to know from the Minister about her discussions with the Minister of Immigration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u00226931eea1e0834312b7cd751487ebf946\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000918\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226931eea1e0834312b7cd751487ebf946\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and picking up on the Minister\u2019s previous comments regarding some of those questions regarding the interactions with other parts of the system, for example the immigration system being outside of her portfolio. I just wanted to acknowledge that this will have consequences in other parts of the system, and that I guess it\u2019s not unfair to ask the Minister to address what level of interaction, if any, she would have with her counterparts in the development of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000919\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EIn relationship to the title, I mean, there\u2019s the words \u201Ctrial periods\u201D and I know that she stated that there hasn\u2019t been a select committee process due to this being in the coalition agreement, but at any point did the Minister seek any feedback from worker representative groups around 90-day trials specifically? Particularly around the kind of trial periods element that we can find in the title, and if so, what was the feedback that she would have received as part of any consultation work? Or was it the case that she would have just spoken to employers in getting to this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000920\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThe previous member Camilla Belich and the amendments that some of the Labour Party counterparts, in terms of the reshaping of the language, what I think they illuminate is the intent of the bill, and I guess while the title may in and of itself not have a huge impact in the day-to-day lives of people, it does signal how the Government is framing this piece of legislation. So that\u2019s why I\u2019m interested in part of that framing\u2014containing the title\u2014what level of consultation she would have had with worker representative groups?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u00227d12a77957d145ffb3c74efd8b9f6bb3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000921\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d12a77957d145ffb3c74efd8b9f6bb3\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to ask the Minister a question which relates in part to the issue of the carve-out of people who are on work visas because I wondered how much she knew about the logic behind that carve-out. My own understanding is that the carve-out will have been because people acknowledged a lot of investment has come, and a lot of risk has come into somebody coming into the country, and there are other ways of handling that situation which don\u2019t involve a right to terminate suddenly in that early period. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000922\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI wondered if the Minister had an opportunity to look at that model and see what was considered because it seems to me there\u2019s an immediate connection with some of the other groups of workers who also could claim a similar risk that they\u2019re taking and cost that they\u2019re paying if this law goes through. I wondered whether it might open the door to a carve-out for some of those other people in different classes. I wondered whether, for example, workers who are moving from one job to another who are actually leaving a job and leaving a good wage might be people that could be carved out very much on the same logic that they are carved out because they are migrants coming to the country on work visas. I also wondered whether we might apply that to some of the other groups that would be particularly at risk as a consequence. So I would like to know whether the Minister looked at that part of another law when she considered this and whether she\u2019d consider those kinds of carve-outs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000923\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI also just wanted to talk about the issue of the amendment that has been put up by my friend Duncan Webb. That does seem to be a clearer articulation of what this is, and I wondered, again, to link it to my last point, whether the Minister had considered whether it was all right to do something unjust to someone in the first 90 days; to terminate them unjustly? Is it all right to terminate them unjustly in that period and not all right when that period has expired? So I\u2019d love an answer to that question: is it OK, why is it OK? I\u2019d like to know whether that\u2019s the way that she sees things or is she suggesting that if there is injustice there should be some recourse? Because I heard some comments made from the Minister in one of her speeches which suggested that she really saw the pathway, for example, to discrimination and unjustified action as still being available, etc. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000924\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ESo is she saying that \u201CNo, this is wrong. Duncan Webb\u2019s wrong because there will still be pathways to justice here if, maybe, the bar is higher.\u201D Is that what she\u2019s saying? Or is she saying it\u2019s OK to be unjust in this period; workers in this situation just have to accept that they will pay a price here because it\u2019s better in the long term for our people across the country to allow injustice of any form or favour? I\u2019d like an answer to that question. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u0022e7f9f773456f45d598b1783659f54284\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e7f9f773456f45d598b1783659f54284\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciate the opportunity to take a call on this bill. This is the first contribution that I intend to make throughout this debate, and later on in the debate I will bring some amendments that I intend to speak to, but for this first contribution I specifically want to ask the Minister about the engagement that she has had, particularly with workers who have been affected in the past through 90-day trial periods, to specifically check and see what has been the impact on their lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000926\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThis is something I can talk to from personal experience. A member of my family was dismissed under a 90-day trial and I wanted to bring that to the House tonight because I think it\u2019s really easy for those who are promoting these types of trial periods to talk around the rights of employers and one of the things around the Employment Relations Act is it does actually specify the rights for employers; it specifies the rights for employers and employees. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000927\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ESo I don\u2019t think anyone in on this side of the House is suggesting that there shouldn\u2019t be a process for dismissal of someone who is not performing their job, but the particular experience that my family member had was working in a job that they had worked in previously. They had worked in the industry previously in a number of roles in the hospitality industry, and so it wasn\u2019t a job that they didn\u2019t know how to do or didn\u2019t have experience in. I particularly wanted to ask the Minister what consultation engagement she\u2019s had with these groups of workers to really understand the impact on them, because my family member was dismissed and the way in which he was dismissed caused him significant mental health issues for a number of months following. The way in which he was dismissed was that he was brought into a busy cafe, in front of many customers, and sat down across the table and told \u201CCollect your knives; leave.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000928\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EWhen someone is in their 20s and that\u2019s their experience in employment, it\u2019s devastating. He wasn\u2019t told why; he had been in the role\u2014I think it was day 88 or 89; he\u2019d been in the role for nearly 90 days, hadn\u2019t any matters raised with him or any concerns. He\u2019d worked in previous hospitality jobs in the exact same role, never been dismissed, never been given a warning, never been late for work, never underperformed, but something had obviously disconnected in the employment relationship, which we know happens. I\u2019ve worked on behalf of employers, by the way. I\u2019ve given employment advice to employers, including performance advice, including issuing people with warnings, including dismissing people, and including putting people through redundancy. So I have actually, as well as having been a union organiser, worked on the other side, so I just want to put that on the table. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000929\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EMy specific question to the Minister is around has she actually sat down and talked to those workers, like my family member\u2014the mental health impact, for months; he never knew what he did wrong. We all want to see young people succeed in their employment but one of the things about the Employment Relations Act is it talks about good faith. That behaviour is not good faith from an employer, and so I really do want to get to the bottom of what the Minister really sees is the impact on, particularly, our young people in the beginning of their careers, to ensure that they are actually heard and consulted through this process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000930\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI ask this question because we\u2019re not putting this through a select committee, so we\u2019re not having the opportunity. I just wanted to make that point, which is one of the reasons why the scrutiny from our side is so important and why I do seek to make a number of calls to ask a number of questions of the Minister. We\u2019re not allowing people like my family member to actually make a submission like the one I\u2019ve just made, and there are many more examples like that\u2014make a submission of that nature to a select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000931\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EMy specific question to the Minister is: through this process, before actually coming to the House and bringing this legislation, has she sat down with actual workers who have been on the receiving end of a dismissal under a 90-day trial and said, \u201CWhat was your experience? How did this work for you?\u201D, in order to actually help inform a piece of law that\u2019s going to work for employers and employees because, as I\u2019ve often said in this House, we have obligations to both parties. As parliamentarians, we\u2019re here for all and so we actually need to consider the needs of everyone when we\u2019re having this debate. So that\u2019s my specific question to the Minister: has she actually sat down with young employees who have been subject to a dismissal under a 90-day trial and actually heard their stories, and does she have a response for them? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab66887e5484432b93bf40a923cf62bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000932\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab66887e5484432b93bf40a923cf62bc\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227e688ae136b449fba7f8af4561954170\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00225b8d4764731b43f2a9350f25194bfdba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b8d4764731b43f2a9350f25194bfdba\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 1 is out of order as not being an objective description of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000934\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EThe question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a876e71be0a0407db1b419d16d0b5cd9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a816372274ae443489d98ee85784e564\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c0b20ca02b4643429256cc880546efeb\u0022\u003EClause 2  Commencement \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022741360c61c4c40069574d6e7f48762c9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000936\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022741360c61c4c40069574d6e7f48762c9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to clause 2. Clause 2 is the commencement. The question is that clause 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u00224b60c09d793f418d82a204989da027f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000937\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b60c09d793f418d82a204989da027f4\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just in regard to the commencement, the Minister spoke about\u2014well, she didn\u2019t speak to some of the pieces of evidence that we did have in relation to 90-day trials not boosting wages, etc. I just wondered whether she had considered delaying the commencement of this bill to allow some evidence-gathering exercises to, for example, assess the impact of those 90-day trials and the impact that that would have had on workers and on things like wage scarring. In my previous contribution in Part 1, which the Minister didn\u2019t address, around the impacts of wage scarring, those are really important things, right? It affects things like the gender wage gap, the ethnic wage gap; it affects overall incomes in our country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000938\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222822e69beae74d849db57029455b0134\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s the question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000939\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c9f40db306542cbbbf1e24f2f814aa2\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: My question is whether the Minister would have been open to considering, or had received advice on considering, a different type of commencement date so that she could have then trialled out\u2014for maybe 90 days\u2014the impacts that the status quo was having and to seek some further advice on what the past arrangements had. So really interested to understand why there is such a rush to put this through when the Minister had acknowledged that she\u2019s not really basing this bill on any evidence. Looking at the coalition agreement, clearly there\u2019s an appetite to make decisions based on evidence, so the commencement date just feels like it goes against that intent in the coalition agreement, by trying to have this Act come into force the day after the date on which it receives the Royal assent. So, again, just checking whether she\u2019d like to honour her coalition agreement by allowing for a later commencement date to gather some more data and information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u00221bcaa982ecc44cf3a97a8fe15420d001\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221bcaa982ecc44cf3a97a8fe15420d001\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair\u2014Mr Chair. I\u2019m sorry; I hadn\u2019t noticed that the Chair had changed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000941\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bdaed193c944768a0ebd68d5360b37f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: I have transformed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000942\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022492457eb5f63408c9590f86fe2cde721\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: It is certainly a transformation. Mr Chair, I have a few comments to make on clause 2, the commencement provision, and one is really for the Minister. In relation to this particular bill, which he is seeking to turn into an Act, it is exactly the same as a bill in terms of its nature of content, and so I wonder in relation to the commencement of this bill whether she had considered just recycling the 2011 bill in relation to this provision and, indeed, the whole Act and whether she got any advice on that. I\u2019d be interested to know if she did do that; or, if she didn\u2019t do that, why she decided not to do that. So that would be my first question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe second thing I wanted to ask was just really about two amendments, which I understand my colleagues wish to speak to in their names. The first is in the name of colleague Ginny Andersen around clause 2, the commencement provision, seeking to replace the words \u201Con the day after\u201D with \u201C90 days after\u201D. It just seems fair, doesn\u2019t it, that the New Zealand public gets to sit with this bill for 90 days as we expect them to sit with insecure and unconfirmed employment. So I think that that\u2019s valid and fair and has a nice kind of poetry to it, if I could be so bold. So I commend my colleague for putting forward that amendment in relation to the commencement clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000944\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI have another colleague who has put forward a different amendment in relation to the commencement. This one is significantly longer. My colleague Arena Williams has suggested that instead of what is currently included in clause 2, we change it to \u201CThis Act comes into force on 9 months after the date of Royal assent.\u201D It\u2019s probably slightly less poetic, and I hope no offence is taken to that by my colleague Arena Williams, but it is a significant amount of time in which I think we could perhaps, if the Minister was of a mind to, do a select committee process once this bill has been passed. I\u2019m sure we could do that within the nine-month period, and that obviously would affect its commencement. But it would mean that it was a meaningful process\u2014that we could effectively delay commencement, which is what we\u2019re discussing at the moment, until after a period of consideration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000945\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EObviously, there\u2019ll be the summer period when not as many people will be around to make submissions, and I\u2019ve heard other colleagues discuss that in the past as well. But then we would have a significant amount of time where, prior to commencement, it would be possible for the Education and Workforce Committee\u2014of which I\u2019m a member; and I see our chair is also in the House\u2014to engage with the content of this bill and hear submissions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000946\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EAs I was discussing in the previous reading, a number of people have indicated to me that they would be in a position to make a submission and want to make submission on this bill. And so I think delaying the commencement in order to have a select committee process would somewhat go towards making the process of urgency, which we are now debating this bill under, slightly fairer and more justifiable\u2014because of that delayed commencement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000947\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo, as I said, although the Arena Williams\u2019 amendment is not as poetic as I think Ginny Andersen\u2019s amendment is, Arena Williams\u2019 amendment does allow greater scope for delaying the commencement in order to go through proper process that would allay a lot of the concerns that we\u2019re hearing from the public.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000948\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo I do wonder if the Minister has\u2014it doesn\u2019t have to be specifically around this particular amendment to clause 2\u2014had advice around a subsequent select committee process that we may be able to enter into. That would be really interesting to hear. So I look forward to hearing the Minister\u2019s comments on that and also on the substantive provisions that my colleagues have sought to introduce under clause 2 as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac593a88cce647de996ab496c8a430b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000949\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac593a88cce647de996ab496c8a430b3\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I have two points to make on this clause. The first is to highlight the need for the nine-month period that I have suggested in my amendment. As my colleague Camilla Belich has pointed out, this would allow the Minister to write to a committee of her choosing, say it was the Education and Workforce Committee, to conduct an inquiry. That has been traversed by Camilla. That is not what I will be speaking about. I would like to help the Minister consider some of the other options available to her, perhaps using a model like Scotland\u2019s Futures Forum to discuss this kind of amendment, which has been back and forth, in and out of our statute book, and really does call for some bipartisan agreement around it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000950\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo something like Scotland\u2019s Futures Forum, or a citizens\u2019 forum, which are two different things, are models of engaging with the people who a law affects, but while presenting them with evidence that has been independently gathered, so that they might make informed decisions about their policy making. My colleagues are very excited about this. They\u2019re having a very lively conversation about it beside me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000951\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo what Scotland\u2019s Futures Forum allows as a lawmaking model for Parliaments like ours is to delegate decisions that have consistently been passed back and forth between major political parties where there is no agreement. This kind of model, if the Minister were to choose to take up my amendment and then allow a nine-month period, would allow her to convene a bipartisan forum that also had representatives of people who are most affected by this\u2014employers, employees, but also experts\u2014and to consider the evidence for this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000952\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI think the first briefing of such a forum, which would be considering this piece of legislation, would consider, perhaps, the research of Motu. It was published with funding from the Treasury into the effect of trial periods in employment on firm hiring behaviour. That research asked the question about whether the option of using trial periods had affected the quantity of hiring by firms and the types of individuals hired, and the stability of employment relationships. It would be really useful for a committee of Parliament to be informed by the expert evidence, but to have alongside it individuals who are outside of Parliament who were most affected by this law, hearing that evidence and making evidence-based decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThat first briefing from Motu would show that research they conducted found no evidence that the ability to use trial periods significantly increased firms\u2019 overall hiring. They estimated that the policy effect was statistically and economically insignificant: a 0.8 percent increase in hiring on average, across all industries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000954\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMy contention here is that it would be really useful for the Minister to be able to spend that nine months considering\u2014with a group of parliamentarians who are interested in the long-term future, in providing certainty to employers\u2014the evidence basis for making these kinds of decisions. It may be that that forum\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000955\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249e6b07642de4b778522938e9c8fdb9b\u0022\u003EHon Simeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: They just want another working group.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000956\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232e8f706f25e4cf4a946fd06efcf2283\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and there\u2019s some very enthusiastic discussion over this side of the Chamber also, on the Futures Forum. I look forward to discussing it with that Minister, because there are some issues in our infrastructure pipeline that could do with some bipartisan treatment too. But this would allow the Minister to consider how we get longevity in this policy. How do we find a common ground? Because I have faith that that Minister is interested in finding common ground here. That is how our democracy works when it is most flourishing, when we agree on the way that we can serve our people the best, and this is a great option for that. I hope she will consider my amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022 data-id=\u0022e5b66fa55bdd41d49bfe5a0949ec5d22\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000957\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e5b66fa55bdd41d49bfe5a0949ec5d22\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I wanted to specifically talk to the contributions that have already come, and I suspect will also follow, about changing the commencement clause. Look, this is pretty standard that a commencement happens after a Royal assent. I don\u2019t think anybody is challenging that. But would we delay it for more information? No. This has been a widely canvassed debate since 2009. Ninety-day trials have been around in New Zealand since 2009, so since that time period, we have gathered quite a wide range of information that has informed our commitment to the New Zealand public. It has informed our commitment as part of the 100-day plan. We have a clear mandate from the New Zealand public to do this change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022f8aaab3a0ca840dd86029aac412c2e5c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000958\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f8aaab3a0ca840dd86029aac412c2e5c\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. So I take the point that there\u2019s no intent to delay it, but I do want to unpack how it matches the intent to use the best available data\u2014particularly when it comes to chance or certainty this bill actually matches with the intent in the coalition agreement. Because I just heard that there is no data gathering; the Minister talked about the fact that we\u2019ve had a debate on this. But can I just ask: is she confident that this bill honours the coalition agreement in relationship to the best use of data and evidence? So I just want to sort of pick that up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThe other thing is: will she then commit to ensuring\u2014and has she considered then\u2014after the bill comes into force, actually starting to collect any data? Because then, otherwise, we\u2019re just having a situation where we didn\u2019t have data before but there\u2019s no intent to collect data.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ESo my two questions are: will she commit; will she initiate data gathering after this bill comes into force? And just the consistency with the coalition agreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u002204d9bef575a04da5a08c42ee5912c3b4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000961\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204d9bef575a04da5a08c42ee5912c3b4\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to ask a question about the possibility of extending the bill to a time when perhaps people are doing better in this country, particularly low-paid workers. My understanding is that the Government has a Budget coming into effect in the April period, so a lot of the policies will kick in there. That\u2019s when a lot of New Zealanders will actually be hit quite hard, I suspect, by things like the lack of childcare payments; perhaps the end of school lunches is my greatest fear, etc.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI understand that the Minister has a different position and thinks that everybody\u2019s going to be thinking it\u2019s the second Christmas because they\u2019re getting $4 a week. I doubt that\u2014there will be things like no support to people for their public transport costs for their children. So I wondered whether we could delay the bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000963\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fbcacc0c3b241afb68aa4e412665017\u0022\u003EStuart Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Thank you, Mr Chair. It seems like we\u2019ve drifted a long way from the commencement clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000964\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022608eab1359ea495ab012b8ca50a18f41\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, I\u2019d note, Mr Chair, that the member was just about to mention her concerns around commencement in this contribution\u2014[Interruption] Excuse me, she just said the word \u201Ccommencement\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000965\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dea52ddbd5a54d359149bf4f68f1ed6a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I wait with bated breath to hear how this relates to the commencement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000966\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a4f8d6c05cc4530a27633081f70a1ad\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE\u003C/span\u003E: So this relates to the bill, Mr Chair, because I wondered whether we could delay the bill long enough to see what the impact was of those other policies and then look at this bill at that stage as coming in after that impact has happened. Because if I\u2019m right and the impact is that hurts New Zealanders, then the bill comes in after that period has happened. If I am wrong, then we\u2019re in a situation where, in fact, the bill\u2019s coming in after the good impact and they\u2019ll be cushioned from the blow by all the wonderful things that the new Government\u2019s going to do for them, ostensibly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000967\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ESo I wondered if we could extend the period long enough to see the impact and therefore people like the woman I described in my speeches\u2014who has children, who is going to be impacted by lack of childcare payments and lack of school lunches and transport costs\u2014would be cushioned from that blow in that period, or the Government\u2019s policies would kick in and she would be so much better off it didn\u2019t matter. That, in fact, she was in a position where she couldn\u2019t afford to take a job that was more risky, from a minimum-wage job, because she risked all those things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000968\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI just wondered whether we could have that extension through the next year, or we could have an amendment which says something like, \u201CThis will kick in when a person on the average wage is, in fact, $50 better off.\u201D Then we could do this, perhaps, at that point\u2014when they were less exposed to the risk of it. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u00225120ee15c92841b3bd52397219de9168\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000969\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225120ee15c92841b3bd52397219de9168\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. I\u2019d like to take the opportunity to speak to one of my many amendments that we have here tonight. In clause 2, as already referred to by Camilla Belich, there is a proposal that I\u2019ve put forward in my name to replace the words \u201Con the day after\u201D to \u201C90 days after\u201D. It only seems fair that if New Zealanders don\u2019t even get to say that their fundamental working rights are being legislated away, then surely New Zealanders in our democratic society can have a 90-day period to evaluate this very legislation. If they can be fired in 90 days without the right of any redress or having a personal grievance, then surely it\u2019s a good democratic society that enables the people of New Zealand to vote this bill down, or have a course of looking at how it\u2019s working. I think 90 days is a fitting time to be able to change that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000970\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s really important that we highlight the fact of that commencement, because in that is the fact that there has been no opportunity for New Zealanders to give their views or their feedback on this legislative change which has massive impacts upon their daily lives and their working life. To be able to have that \u201C90 days after\u201D put into clause 2, into the commencement\u2014that would enable an additional ability for people to be able to say what the impacts are on their lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000971\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThere have been many instances, as a local MP, when I have had constituents come to me and say that they have had the sharp end of a 90-day trial period, which has resulted in them losing their job. One that sticks in mind most as we talk on this clause is the instance where the former employee said that the employer had four\u2014four\u2014different employees over the period of the past 12 months and each of them, when they had come to their 90 days, had had their contract terminated on that basis. What those employees were doing in the 90 days is they were taking up whichever hours were on offer; they were doing extra shifts; they were working hard out to be able to meet the expectations of their employer in the hope that they would have a permanent position after that 90 days, and four, one after the other, had their contract terminated with no reason. It was a fire-at-will situation for all four of those individuals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000972\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe absolute uncertainty of those employees and the flexibility and the benefits of the employer are way out of balance. It is only right that if New Zealanders are able to be fired after 90 days, then surely we need to take a good look at this bill after the same period\u201490 days\u2014to see how it is working for our people and how our workers\u2019 rights are being protected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022 data-id=\u0022946dd22b0f0c46b387b280b36dfe8711\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000973\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022946dd22b0f0c46b387b280b36dfe8711\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I just wanted to respond to that member\u2019s contribution. Bearing in mind her rhetoric, she may not be aware that under her previous Government, there were 90-day trials just for small businesses\u2014for businesses with 20 employees or less. If it\u2019s good for businesses and employees and employers in a situation with 20 or less than 20 employees, then it\u2019s good for a large company, too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000974\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EThere is a question here from Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March about data collection on 90-day trials. I\u2019ll be looking to work with officials in the coming years on researching and evaluating the labour market as part of my wider work stream. Talking also to his query about why it\u2019s going through quicker than he may wish it goes through, part of that is because the Government has actually inherited quite a bleak economic outlook and we are wanting to reinstate business confidence as soon as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea25f72617924ab2a0df3c028c2c8969\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea25f72617924ab2a0df3c028c2c8969\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. The issue, of course, when a Minister responds with political responses to genuine questions is that it allows the debate to drag on. We don\u2019t really want it to drag on. We just want some answers to our questions. The issue that we\u2019ve got\u2014in defence of the Hon Ginny Andersen\u2014is that it was a genuine question, made from genuine concerns, and all that she got from the Minister in response was a political response, not an answer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000976\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EI think the Hon Ginny Andersen has a point, because we are here, as everyone is, approaching Christmas. Now, some of us in this House might be more motivated by that, and that time frame that it brings, but we are here to debate what this bill proposes. In the bill, in clause 2, it proposes that it comes into force as soon as there is Royal assent. What we have from the Hon Ginny Andersen\u2019s amendment is a proposal that would take into account that, over the summer break, there will be people who are taking on employment. They will be taking, potentially, a break at Christmas and taking on new work. Or they might be taking on new work heading into summer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000977\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThe issue that we have here, with a lack of select committee process, a lack of an opportunity for the public, both employers and employees\u2014because it is a mistake to assume and state that all employers are in favour of this\u2014is that this House is yet to be convinced that, if this comes in when it\u2019s proposed, directly after Royal assent, there won\u2019t be people that are dismissed with no reason. We\u2019re yet to hear from the Minister any evidence to say that there won\u2019t be people dismissed for no reason. In the absence of that information, I think it is utterly reasonable to propose that there is a time period that covers the summer period that allows people to take on work and demonstrate that what the Government is saying is the case\u2014that it will allow employers to be more flexible and take more people on without impacting those that are about to start their work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EWhat is wrong with an idea here with a bill that proposes the idea of a temporary arrangement to see if it works, to take their own medicine and apply the same thing to this? It\u2019s an utterly reasonable proposal. There are other proposals around the commencement date that are a bit longer, but the Hon Ginny Andersen\u2019s amendment uses the exact same time frame that is proposed in this bill, and I think she deserves an answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u002258181d79766f4de3a7316718a3ad5d13\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000979\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002258181d79766f4de3a7316718a3ad5d13\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. The commencement date will play in force in summer and there are specific industries that come into life and are more transitional and/or precarious like the tourism sector, for example, where in summer there will be pockets that are more active than others. So the reason why I wanted to ask about the timing of the commencement date in relation to the industries is whether the Minister has any knowledge about the timing of the commencement date in terms of the industries that she expects to be the most impacted as a result of the timing of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000980\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI wanted to pick up on the regulatory impact statement, which we don\u2019t have any opportunities in this debate to kind of have a back and forth with the Minister in relation to it. We do have some information from almost 10 years ago about the types of people who had a higher likelihood of starting on those trial periods, but that was 10 years ago. So does the Minister know which industries and what kind of people will be most impacted by the timing of the bill, as industries tend to hire more people in specific periods? And, if not, why did she not seek that advice in relation to the timing and the commencement of the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022 data-id=\u00227b768df7ee8a4f568e7edcb7e01614e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000981\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b768df7ee8a4f568e7edcb7e01614e4\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E The people that will be impacted by the timing of this bill will be all people over the next nine years of this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5cb96765b354eba9dfc7e3a4cca703f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000982\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5cb96765b354eba9dfc7e3a4cca703f\u0022\u003EKATIE NIMON (National\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u00221a74ad3b27614547bcf43ec13b24f085\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000983\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a74ad3b27614547bcf43ec13b24f085\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I have a specific point in relation to clause 2, the commencement provision. So the Minister, when she was responding to a previous question on commencement, stated that it was quite usual for the day after Royal assent to be the commencement date. So I happened to have a copy of the Employment Relations Act, which is the primary Act that this Act amends, in front of me, and I thought it would be interesting to check the commencement date in the Employment Relations Act. I noted, when I checked the commencement date in the primary Act that\u2019s being amended that it actually didn\u2019t have the date after Royal assent; it had a specific date, 2 October 2000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI wondered whether the Minister had received any advice about having a specific commencement date. This is not a facetious question. It\u2019s actually because one of the key issues with trial periods is a lot of employers get them wrong, and that\u2019s partly because of the high standard that the Employment Court has placed on making sure that trial periods are, for example, between new employees, they can only be in writing, and they have to be before employment commences. So often employers, and specifically because this policy has been related to small employers, tend to get that wrong. I think we\u2019ve referred to previously in the debate the high majority of the number of trial period clauses that have been to the Employment Relations Authority and have been found to be invalid.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000985\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo this relates to the commencement clause in that could she please receive some advice on whether she thinks it might be beneficial for New Zealanders to have a specific date rather than the day after the Royal assent in the legislation. That way, if employers or employees were looking as to whether, in fact, trial periods could be used for all employers or, in fact, smaller employers, they could look to that specific date in the commencement, rather than the day after Royal assent. Because, actually, finding the day of Royal assent is quite difficult. I know that the Parliamentary Service is quite helpful. I\u2019ve seen that they do tweets on the commencement date of some pieces of legislation. They confirm\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000986\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d64f7a955fad47e1a1289200850689ae\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: What are tweets?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000987\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244c480d8e5364737b706dc1202c3a913\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014Yeah, they do. Yeah, tweets; very useful if you have an interest in certain areas. But I don\u2019t think the general New Zealand public would be so engaged with the parliamentary process to either check the Gazette, which may be where it\u2019s advertised\u2014and that\u2019s actually another question for the member: how do members of the public find out the date of Royal assent? So I\u2019m quite interested on that, and I just think it would provide greater clarity for members of the public to see a particular date. I think it\u2019s not without precedent, as it was in the Employment Relations Act\u2014a specific date of commencement\u2014and it would seek to address some of the issues that we know with trial periods, in that there are still quite a lot of issues with validity and also a high standard in the authority and in the court to look to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000988\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EIf so, if she was to enlighten us with, in fact, if she had taken advice on that, what date would she be looking at? Because I think it would be unusual to have a date this late in the year, and so perhaps when people were likely to come back to work; perhaps after the statutory holidays in January could be a time period which would be clearer for New Zealanders to know. Because it might be that she might want to have it from 1 January, for example. It might be, in fact, that that\u2019s the day after Royal assent. I don\u2019t know if the Governor-General has plans over the summer or is still, in fact, signing bills or not, but I would be interested to know, yeah, a few things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000989\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo advice on it, what date she would determine could be included in that, and, in fact, how do members of the public\u2014because, genuinely, how do you find out exactly when the date of Royal assent occurs in order to know whether the bill that we\u2019re discussing around the commencement in clause 2 actually is in place or not? So if the Minister wouldn\u2019t mind looking at that commencement provision and just providing some reasoning around the decision to have it after Royal assent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022 data-id=\u002247aeb7a2354f4e38980ea98cdf968f4e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000990\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247aeb7a2354f4e38980ea98cdf968f4e\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E I can assure the member that the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment will update their own website to allow for members of the public to know when the official start date will be for this new law, and I look forward to the member going online and finding that out. Also recognising that most people do not go to the specific law to find commencement; they go to the governing agencies where information is usually held.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u002269693965edbc46b8982702edae5eeb8d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000991\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269693965edbc46b8982702edae5eeb8d\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Off the back of my colleague Camilla Belich\u2019s excellent contribution, I just wanted to ask the Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety some further questions about this commencement date, particularly relating to my colleague Ginny Andersen\u2019s excellent amendment to give the bill another 90 days before it commences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000992\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ESo my specific questions related to the fact that the bill reinstates 90-day trials for large employers. One of the matters that\u2019s come up in the debate is that for many of those employers, one of the reasons why this side of the Chamber believes, actually, they don\u2019t need 90-day trials is because they\u2019re able to, effectively, manage a fair dismissal process, if they needed to do one, with a standard trial period that had already existed in law. For example, we have, often, these large employers managing employment-relation matters with HR teams. So one of my questions\u2014as, I think, Camilla Belich pointed out very succinctly\u2014was around the fact that we\u2019re about to approach Christmas. So, you know, I\u2019m really mindful for HR professionals, leading into Christmas, from those large employers, that if they, for example, use template employment-agreements\u2014they\u2019re quite common. So being able to give people who work in areas like human resources, like legal teams, like employment-relation teams within a large business that extra time before the commencement comes in, to ensure they\u2019re following the updated law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000993\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ESo my question for the Minister is: has she actually considered that having a 90-day delay would assist some of those large employers? What I wouldn\u2019t want\u2014I think none of us would want our poor HR teams having to work on Christmas Eve, updating employee templates. I think that we want to make sure everybody gets a good break over the Christmas period. So there\u2019s some really good practical reasons why delaying that commencement clause of the bill by 90 days could be really useful for those large employers so that they can go across the summer break, using existing law, without having to update some of their internal processes. So it\u2019s a genuine question for the Minister, just off the back of that contribution, and it\u2019d be really good to get an answer on that, because I think we are at that particular point in time of the year where HR teams, legal teams, won\u2019t be updating templates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000994\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ESo if you\u2019re, for example, a manager of a department for a large department store, and you\u2019re wanting to hire people between Christmas and New Year and you want an updated individual employment agreement that you get off a website, usually, in those situations, there\u2019d be somebody in an HR team actually updating that for you. So, from a practical point of view, it would probably be better for those teams to be working off existing law. So I\u2019m just interested if the Minister has considered that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022 data-id=\u002224673dc59bb64571a96c593b6453a99f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000995\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002224673dc59bb64571a96c593b6453a99f\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much for the question, I believe it is in good faith. Looking at employment processes over Christmas, I do like to assure the member that, of course, nobody has to take up a 90-day trial; existing law applies. It is simply an option. So if a company or a business or an employee does not feel comfortable, they don\u2019t need to do it, because it\u2019s not mandatory.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022c961030ac20f4762beb8790e681bf86f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000996\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c961030ac20f4762beb8790e681bf86f\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. So just picking up the point around the updating of the website\u2014I mean, sure, great. But the reality is a lot of businesses and, actually, workers don\u2019t just go to the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment website to check up the most available information. So I guess my question in relationship to the timing of the commencement date was: what further resources does she think will be needed to go into place to ensure that everybody is up to speed with those changes in the law?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000997\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EWe may then be able to discuss that in clause 3, in relation to just amendments to the Employment Relations Act 2000. But my experience\u2014why I think it\u2019s important to pick up on the point that she had just made and to unpack it a bit further, acknowledging we haven\u2019t had a select committee stage to ask officials about this, is what resources beyond just updating the website does she think are needed? Particularly with the timing going into Christmas and that kind of public service shutting down for a little bit, what will be needed to ensure that everybody is compliant, and that workers actually understand that if their employers are talking about changes to laws, they have the resources to navigate those changes? Because of the kind of Christmas timing, I\u2019m concerned that just updating the website does not give people enough awareness of changes that actually have really big, impactful, material differences in their lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00226ace7bee272f4fdba380ba186678c156\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000998\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ace7bee272f4fdba380ba186678c156\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: I note that there has been some new material, but this is focused on the commencement date, and we are starting to drift into other clauses. But members, rest assured there is more debate to be had.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022be3a3e4e7b524df8a3a50cbf3239ae8d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e000999\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be3a3e4e7b524df8a3a50cbf3239ae8d\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Chair. So the previous person in the chair acknowledged that we haven\u2019t had a select committee stage and she had originally talked about how, in the title, we can go beyond that. I just want to check: do you intend to have a specific clause in which we\u2019re able to further unpack this bill and the fact that we haven\u2019t had a select committee stage? Because otherwise, we\u2019re all trying to actually, in good faith, unpack the consequences and implication of this bill and we just haven\u2019t had that chance. So at what point do you expect that we can then have the more substantive debate because we didn\u2019t have the select committee stage?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022c7079caf9a40434ca47da06b17b385ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001000\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c7079caf9a40434ca47da06b17b385ce\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: My observation is that members are ranging a bit further away\u2014and that\u2019s fine because, as people have said over the last couple of days, actually, we haven\u2019t had a select committee process as well. So we have tried to build that into our flexibility. I also note that the previous Chair here did say that specifically within clause 1 as well, but when we start to hear repetitions, it\u2019s time to move on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022e723119829c344a6969027fa9e898227\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e723119829c344a6969027fa9e898227\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. I have two questions for the Minister who\u2019s in charge of the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe first; I\u2019d like to have it clarified: in terms of the commencement for clause 2 and when that applies in relation to an employment agreement\u2014we\u2019ve already been discussing specifically over the holiday period. What I\u2019d like the Minister to answer is if somebody who was hired, say, yesterday, under an employment contract and then the legislation comes into force after the day\u2019s commencement as specified, what is the impact of that on the employment relationship? So it\u2019s really important for employees to be able to know if they were hired before this bill came into force, are they still going to be held to a 90-day trial period or if they are not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe second question I have for the Minister is really in relation to my amendment. Again, I didn\u2019t really get the answer. All the Minister said in relation to that was that small firms are already able to do this. It didn\u2019t really address the fact that there is that ongoing unfairness and it didn\u2019t really explain if employers are able to fire an employee in 90 days, why don\u2019t New Zealanders also get that opportunity to be able to do that? I didn\u2019t feel that the answer actually addressed what the question was, and I\u2019d be really grateful for any further enlightenment that the Minister would like to provide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd9096fbfaab4db8995640e24d1e4491\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd9096fbfaab4db8995640e24d1e4491\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226d04e863321849d184668a392e47ae29\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00225c6f3e497df049b4a5386878cd57e4b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c6f3e497df049b4a5386878cd57e4b3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Ginny Andersen\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d0cc66a7ef894e67bca024bc085c6557\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00223e319d72d2bb49b1bc4851ebf3e37d12\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e319d72d2bb49b1bc4851ebf3e37d12\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f334788a7dbe41cca4a02e00c632ae9e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022444d02f5482e42e4a752ceb20d395bdb\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226237c747c9af4b60ab49f5d8e8678f7a\u0022\u003EClause 3  Principal Act \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf3a5e7b98fe431eb559866a99ace6a9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf3a5e7b98fe431eb559866a99ace6a9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to clause 3, \u201CPrincipal Act\u201D. The question is that clause 3 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u00229c51dfaf5395475fa3959954a4fde033\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c51dfaf5395475fa3959954a4fde033\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I am pleased to make a contribution to clause 3 of the Employment Relations (Trial Periods) Amendment Bill, which states that the principal Act\u2014which the Employment Relations (Trial Periods) Amendment Act works under and, in fact, does amend\u2014is the Employment Relations Act 2000; one of my most used and affectionately known pieces of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe question that I would like the Minister to engage on\u2014and, obviously, I realise that she may have received some advice on this from officials, but I think it is important to note that this bill started off as a member\u2019s bill, and members\u2019 bills are drafted differently to Government bills. So what I would like to know, in relation to the decision to draft this bill in the way that it does amend the Employment Relations Act, is the advice that she has received about the appropriateness of this. Did she look to other alternative methods of drafting this particular bill? Were there suggestions made by officials on how to improve the drafting of this Act? Because, in my experience with members\u2019 bills, often there is a number of changes that officials do suggest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThere are not many consequential amendments that are suggested to this principal Act; so is there any comment she can make around the suitability of adopting a member\u2019s bill that was drawn in the last ballot prior to the election and then adopting that bill\u2014first of all saying that there would be a select committee process on it and then subsequently stating that there wouldn\u2019t be a select committee process on it, and then taking it through urgency? This is such an important piece of legislation that is being amended. It has existed since 2000, and it\u2019s already come up in debates on different bills in the House today, about how the Employment Contracts Act existed and then it was repealed through the Employment Relations Act. Any amendments to this piece of legislation are very important and significant to the fabric of how employment law functions in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThere are a number of colleagues who have already made comments on the nature of this bill, which is the subject of this clause, and about how it introduces the concept of good faith into employment relationships. We know the concept of good faith is a principle that imbues all employment relationships, and, very interestingly, it\u2019s very difficult to see how good faith applies to this particular amendment. Usually in good faith, there is an opportunity for an exchange. Usually with good faith, there is an opportunity for explanation. Usually in good faith, there\u2019s an opportunity for representation. Usually with good faith, there is an opportunity for that important relationship that is so fundamental to the Employment Relations Act to be thought through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI know the Minister may say, \u201CWell, employment trial periods existed prior to this legislation, and this simply extends it.\u201D But I think it\u2019s incumbent on her, as a Minister, to tell this committee\u2014because we don\u2019t have the ability to go through a select committee process\u2014why it is appropriate in 2023, or indeed in 2024 if that is when the bill comes into effect, how good faith and how the case law around good faith has progressed during the intervening period, between when we had trial periods first introduced and had them extensively throughout all employers and now having limited that for the last three or four years. How does good faith apply to trial periods? We know it does apply, because we know that it is an important part of the Employment Relations Act which is amended by this clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI have a copy of the Employment Relations Act in front of me, and we can go to section 4 and just see how far the duty of good faith goes. If you look at section 4, \u201CParties to employment relationship to deal with each other in good faith\u201D. They \u201Cmust deal with each other in good faith\u201D. And this is a principal part of the Employment Relations Act. If I just skip up to the object part as well, \u201CThe object of this Act is \u2026 to build productive employment relationships through the promotion of good faith in all aspects of the employment environment and \u2026 employment relationship\u201D. I know this trial period was not invented by this Minister\u2014I don\u2019t ask her to take responsibility for that\u2014but what I do ask is, when she says that this trial period extension bill allows trial periods to apply throughout the economy, to every single employer, how does the principal objective part of this Act and the purpose of the Employment Relations Act fit with trial provisions? And is she satisfied that it fits within that piece of legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe practical implication of passing this law is, as I\u2019ve said, to change this Act, and everything in this Act should be, if legislative drafting is correct, consistent with section 4 of the Act and also should be interpreted consistently with the object of this Act, which is set out in section 3 of the Act. It is very different to imagine a good faith employment arrangement as envisaged in section 3 and section 4 in a trial period situation, because, in practice, the duty of good faith is to engage. One of the key things around a trial period is that there is no requirement to engage\u2014a dismissal can be for any reason that isn\u2019t a discriminatory reason. And Mr Chair, if you will allow me, I would like to foreshadow that there are a number of sections in Part 9 that are not amended by the bill in front of us but are relevant to the bill in front of us, and I would like to make a contribution to that particular section at some point. I think it would be beneficial for those following this debate to actually understand the types of personal grievance which continue under a trial period regime and which don\u2019t continue under a trial period regime, because even for someone who used to practise employment law, like myself, it is very difficult to ascertain exactly what could be covered for a particular dismissal or not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo, when we look at this clause 3 of the bill, I wonder if the Minister is able to go through\u2014and I do realise this is my second call, so I won\u2019t take all of this time. But can I just end this contribution by saying that to the employment law community in New Zealand, who will be the ones who are responsible for interpreting what the Minister does today and providing that advice to their clients, big and small, vulnerable and not vulnerable, rich and poor, throughout New Zealand, they need to know how the intersection of the primary provision of good faith in section 4 and the object of the Employment Relations Act is consistent with the bill that she is putting forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI do have other contributions to make in relation to this bill, in relation to the personal grievance section, which is the other substantive section which is relevant to this bill, but I just wondered if I could leave those questions with the Minister to have a response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad3da5163c044115a97a5e05f29564c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad3da5163c044115a97a5e05f29564c6\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much for the member\u2019s contribution. Look, I wanted to talk briefly about the principal Act being amended, as the member Camilla Belich raised. That\u2019s because this makes an amendment to the 90-day trial provisions that exist within the Employment Relations Act, which are currently just for small and medium business, and we are changing that to all employers. So it seems pretty straightforward why we need to amend that particular part of that Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EThe overarching question was about whether or not the bill that we have before us is suitable, as it was a member\u2019s bill. My officials have advised me that it does achieve my policy objective and that it is a well-drafted bill. They also advised that we didn\u2019t need any changes to the bill, because we don\u2019t need any transitional provisions, because this is very clear that it is applying only for new employment agreements from the date of Royal assent. I would also like to take the chance to commend by former colleague Dr James McDowall on the very good drafting of this member\u2019s bill, which allowed us to use this at the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003ETalking to the third part of her question\u2014about good faith applying to 90-day trials\u2014I\u2019d like to assure the member that an employer dismissing an employee under a 90-day trial still has a requirement to act in good faith under section 4 of that Act. It still applies. The Employment Relations Authority and the courts have upheld good faith requirements for dismissals under 90-day trials since trial periods began in New Zealand in 2009, such as ensuring that the trial period is agreed to before starting work, to provide an opportunity for the employee to seek advice and to raise any issues. So the bill does not change any of those requirements, which is why it\u2019s not in it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022b34b2347ab4d45a0b5711ff344a8f672\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b34b2347ab4d45a0b5711ff344a8f672\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Just for members\u2019 enlightenment, in terms of the narrow focus of this clause, this provision identifies the principal Act; it doesn\u2019t open up the Act for debate, except to the extent that this bill amends it. However, members, the time has come for dinner, and I need a cup of tea! We will suspend until 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 5.58 p.m. to 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022279043061c6142e6a9c2bbe4ef9d1783\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022279043061c6142e6a9c2bbe4ef9d1783\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Employment Relations (Trial Periods) Amendment Bill. Before the dinner break the committee was considering clause 3, \u201CPrincipal Act.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022391f4da63fea47d08cd3c5493915e424\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022391f4da63fea47d08cd3c5493915e424\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I enjoyed the last contribution I was able to make on clause 3 in relation to the amendment of the principal Act, the Employment Relations Act, and I did signal to the Chair at the time that I had another contribution that I wanted to make, specifically around clause 3, which is the amendment to the principal Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe main clauses which are amended in the Employment Relations Act are the sections 67A and 67B. So I will speak, and I did note the comment by the presiding officer at the time, and I\u2019m not intending to\u2014just for your assurance, Madam Chair\u2014speak to the entire Employment Relations Act, even though that is included in the clause. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe contributions that I want to make are specific to the particular sections which are affected by this new bill on trial periods. So section 67A\u2014we\u2019ve some amendments to that that will be discussed in the next debate, on clause 4, but the amendments in relation to section 67B do open up a different area, which is another fundamentally important part of the Employment Relations Act, which is the provisions to allow personal grievances to take place or not in section 103. So that\u2019s specifically referred to in the principal Act\u2014the section that 67B amends refers to the personal grievances section. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo one of the main issues with trial periods is the removal of the ability for employees to take personal grievances in respect of their dismissal. So the language used in the bill\u2014and that will be discussed in a subsequent clause\u2014is quite specific around that not being permitted. However, if we actually look at the Act, which we\u2019re now looking at under clause 3, we see that there are a number of personal grievances that can still be pursued by people regardless of the fact that they might be under a 90-day trial period. And that is, I think, one of the issues with this bill, and I wonder if the Minister could comment on this at all\u2014the lack of clarity in what types of action can actually be covered and taken under the Employment Relations Act, despite the bill which the Minister is proposing on trial periods. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe bill says that if you\u2019re in a trial period, you can\u2019t bring a personal grievance for dismissal. However, it does allow a number of personal grievances to continue, and I might go through those for your benefit and just ask if the Minister had considered any other types of personal grievances that she may want to protect by allowing them to continue with this legislation. I think the Minister did refer to this during question time today; it\u2019s clear, then, and it has been an established practice for a number of iterations of this type of legislation, that discrimination claims and other acts relating to racial discrimination, sexual harassment, that type of claim is able to be taken whether you\u2019re in a trial period or not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EIn looking at this section in the Employment Relations Act, again it was notable to me how many other exceptions have been added in more recent legislation. So there was the work done around zero-hour contracts, and that was under the previous National Government and that\u2019s actually been included in this section which has been retained by this bill, preventing people who have rights in relation to zero-hour contracts from actually being prevented from taking a personal grievance. So that is obviously interesting. And then there\u2019s the membership or not of a union that can also continue, and then protection of whistleblowers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo I think the House can be united in being satisfied that these are protections that are so fundamentally important that of course, regardless of whether you\u2019re in a trial period or not, they should not be excluded from being able to take these forms of action. The difficulty that I have and the question I would like to ask the Minister is: what happens and what is her understanding of this legislation in how it would impact a dismissal which is tainted by sexual harassment, family violence, racial harassment. These are all clauses which are relevant to this particular bill and retained by the Employment Relations Act in relation to this particular bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo what would occur in that situation, from the Minister\u2019s advice, if there is a dismissal which is tainted by some of these discriminatory reasons? And what would be the course of action under this new piece of legislation that she would recommend someone take in relation to taking a course of action in law? Is her advice that, obviously, the bill she\u2019s proposing says that they can\u2019t take a claim for a personal grievance because of that dismissal? However, is the dismissal able to be part of some other personal grievances which remain under this piece of legislation? And what\u2019s your advice to the public, really, about how they would navigate what is quite a complex situation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo I want to thank the Minister for making sure that those provisions were retained within this principal Act which we are discussing in clause 3. I think that was the right thing to do. I do think that there is somewhat of a lack of clarity as to what people should be doing in those particular situations, if they are in fact to find themselves in a situation where they have one right which exists but another right which is taken away. Obviously, for lawyers and for unions, they can offer advice to people, but not everyone\u2019s in a situation where they have access to a union or a lawyer, and it might be good to clarify how she sees that intersection of rights occurring.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI thought it was helpful, in relation to my last question, when she confirmed that good faith would apply throughout the process of the trial period. That\u2019s really good to have that reassurance, and that was my understanding of how the Employment Relations Act, which is the principal Act that is being amended by this bill, would work. So bearing that in mind and understanding that we do have this relationship of good faith which imbues all of the clauses, including the bill which the Minister is intending to pass tonight, can she dig into a wee bit more the type of advice that she would give to members of the public on how to navigate what is quite a tricky area. So a few questions here for the Minister and I look forward to her response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u00222e22038e4edf40bcb487cd8220317b8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e22038e4edf40bcb487cd8220317b8e\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I wanted to ask the Minister about the object section of the principal Act. We\u2019ve talked about good faith but we haven\u2019t talked about the acknowledgment that there is an inherent inequality of bargaining power. That is something that is in the next section; part of section 4. I thought it was interesting, because I see a distinction between small employers where the power imbalance is a little bit different. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EA small operation is, effectively, two people who have a greater amount of equality. That really is the nature of a small business and I can see the justification for trial periods in that situation being quite different. But when you have a big employer, one that has 50 employees or more, there is a clear acknowledgment in the Act that there is an inherent inequality of power between the two, and that\u2019s fundamental to the Act. So I wondered how there was a reconciliation between those two things and how you could have that object in the Act, yet have this clause applying to large employers where that is so evident. But also the Act is built trying to make sure that that\u2019s acknowledged in its object section.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ESo I wanted to know whether there\u2019d been any advice on that and whether the Minister has a view on that inherent inequality that is in a relationship and how she protects against it. Because it goes to the vulnerability of the types of workers I\u2019ve talked about who are way more precarious in this time period than they would be otherwise and are going to be really worried about what happens next. It goes to the capacity for them to even raise issues in that time and the kind of fear that they will bring into the workplace, because they\u2019ll be worried that they\u2019re going to lose their jobs if they do anything that their employer objects to, whether it\u2019s good or bad. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI think the Minister is aware that most sexual abuse situations never get near a court, they\u2019re never challenged in that way, and that makes an area like that, bad behaviour in terms of things like sexual assault or other kinds of bad behaviours which we know are bad, a lot less able to be managed in that situation because there will be fear of retribution because there\u2019s a very big difference between those things happening and being able to prove that they\u2019ve happened. In fact, the employer doesn\u2019t have to give any reason in this situation. So I\u2019d like the Minister\u2019s comments on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00222d7af328442040a7a9d1311a39c050f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222d7af328442040a7a9d1311a39c050f8\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Look, really quick questions for the Minister\u2014this will be a brief contribution. Just asking about clause 3 in the amendment bill. My question is about whether there is any other legislation, any secondary legislation, any legal instruments, any regulation which is impacted by the passage of this bill. That clause reads \u201CThis Act amends the Employment Relations Act 2000\u201D, but it would perhaps better read, \u201Cand makes consequential amendments to the immigration instructions\u201D, for example. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019d like the Minister to tell me whether there is any other secondary legislation or legal instruments which are impacted by this\u2014and then I can write a really useful amendment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022605741410a464e66ba2b355a9e99a509\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022605741410a464e66ba2b355a9e99a509\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Acknowledging, again, the lack of select committee, I hope my judgment is right that this may be the best place to raise it, because I feel that in the previous clause it wasn\u2019t addressed\u2014the steps that the Minister was hoping to take to ensure there was a proper communication campaign to ensure workers and employers are made aware of any changes to the Employment Relations Act. I say this because when a fair pay agreement is passed, the reality is that we were handing out letters to people, a lot of people were still not aware that fair agreements were a thing, so I think there is always that need whenever there is a change to the Employment Relations Act; that it\u2019s not just a matter of updating the website. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ESo my question is: what steps does she envision that she needs to take or what resources may need to come into place to ensure that the changes to the Employment Relations Act 2000 actually create the conditions for employers to be aware of this extension of 90-day trials, as well as those workers who may be entering those workplaces; that they are also aware of these changes? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022 data-id=\u0022057714c1767f4913916651dade6aa32c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022057714c1767f4913916651dade6aa32c\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019d like to take the chance to respond to a few of the questions today. The member Camilla Belich was talking about what would occur if dismissal might happen and there is another personal grievance that\u2019s part of the process. I\u2019d just like to remind the member that it is possible to bring a personal grievance under this new law in relation to any other matter such as sexual harassment. The bill is only excluding that one part of the law, which is specified, for unjustified dismissal. It does not preclude bringing on another personal grievance ground.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EI wanted to take the chance to talk to the question from Helen White about inequality of power, and just remind the member that good faith principles apply no matter the size of a company in New Zealand, under the Employment Relations Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EI\u2019d also like to take the chance to respond to Arena Williams, who asked about changing the clause as it\u2019s written in the bill to allow for things like the immigration instruction, and just remind her that I\u2019ve already spoken about that in relation to clause 2. I have already outlined that this does not change the immigration instructions, so that is null and void.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EAnd also to Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u2019s question about further resources\u2014I thank the member for that question, because I believe it is in good faith\u2014and what more resources are needed to let employers know about the new laws and that they\u2019re up to date. As part of the implementation of this policy, we will be updating the guidance on the Employment New Zealand website, but I\u2019ve already mentioned that in a previous clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u00226b7e10d3f2ec48ebbdff10d018a76318\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226b7e10d3f2ec48ebbdff10d018a76318\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226eaa8f62a81e46c6b9715f8a9d446ff9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220185f0a002d0468f8583baed71395268\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dd2bee1fa91a4c85ac69e5912e6dcd35\u0022\u003EClause 4  Section 67A replaced (When employment agreement may contain provision for trial period for 90 days or less) \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002296c722ec5390438d9e064ebc6362c9e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002296c722ec5390438d9e064ebc6362c9e9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to clause 4, \u201CSection 67A replaced (When employment agreement may contain provision for trial period for 90 days or less)\u201D. The question is that clause 4 stand part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u002260520872dd32401aafe76030f0e58db9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002260520872dd32401aafe76030f0e58db9\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to speak to my amendment to clause 4, which is that after new section 67(1), it would insert \u201CAn employment agreement cannot contain a trial provision if the employee identifies as M\u0101ori or Pasifika or as a woman, or if the employee is under the age of 30 or is disabled.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EIn the classical liberal view of the world\u2014and I raise that because the ACT Party often style themselves as great advocates of classical liberalism\u2014that particular world view sees humanity as just a collection of atomised individuals, and Margaret Thatcher very famously said, or is often quoted as saying, that there is no such thing as society. Now, she said that she was terribly misquoted, as people often do when their words are quoted back to them, but she was, in fact, expressing a view that was influenced by Friedrich Hayek, who some people in this Parliament, including some ACT members, claim as a great\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8a4b7a098434fd2b5e98e8c41375544\u0022\u003EDan Bidois\u003C/span\u003E: Relevance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223da8fc8959af4ae1889ee4538e40b11e\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014philosophical influence. Well, I\u2019ll get to the relevance. The relevance will become very clear. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293a68d716a72432fb253adb9613f04ad\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Soon, I hope\u2014soon. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227749a3e6c7534a0c82306ab751f01c10\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: The view does not allow that we have collective interests and that we are part of communities, or that it is the role of Government to regulate our affairs. It also doesn\u2019t allow for the possibility that how we get on in the world is determined, often, by things like social hierarchies, or where we sit in the process of production in the economy, and that\u2019s where this amendment comes in, because there are people in our community and in our country\u2014women, the young, ethnic minorities, the disabled\u2014who actually are at the bottom of the economic hierarchy. They are the people who figure most disproportionately in low income and in poverty, and it\u2019s not just ethnicity and gender; it\u2019s often the history of those people and their place in the country and in the way that power is exercised\u2014not just political power but economic power. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe view that I\u2019m talking about pretends that we\u2019re all individuals and we\u2019re all able to negotiate our interests and contract with each other on a level playing field. For example, a 17-year-old Pasifika woman who turns up, applying for a job with a multinational fast-food operator that has hundreds of millions of dollars of capital behind it\u2014it pretends that she can negotiate on an equal basis with that company, with that prospective employer. That is why we have rules for collective bargaining and protections built into our employment systems, like the restrictions\u2014or what should be a ban, in my view\u2014on 90-day trial periods. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThis bill, which extends the 90-day trial periods to all companies and to all employees and all employers in our economy, is a perfect expression of this view, and I want to ask the Minister: does she believe that there is a power differential between the job seeker\u2014the young 17-year-old Pasifika woman turning up to seek to apply for a job at a multinational fast-food company\u2014and the employer? I\u2019d really like to know whether the Minister thinks that they are, in fact, negotiating on an equal playing field. Further to that, I would like to ask, in line with my amendment, whether or not the Minister believes that the young, women workers, the disabled, and M\u0101ori and Pasifika experience disadvantage in the workplace, and whether or not they should be protected by labour laws like the law that currently restricts\u2014significantly restricts\u2014the use of 90-day trial periods in workplaces. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThis bill is an echo of a view that is also expressed in this coalition Government\u2019s desire to bring back no-cause terminations in rental housing. It\u2019s based on a view that working people, the young, and the least powerful people in our society don\u2019t deserve due process and they don\u2019t deserve the protection of the law, and it is contrary to the idea that we are all individuals living together on some kind of level playing field. It is a brutally hierarchical view of humanity. It says that one group of people, or a whole bunch of people in our society simply don\u2019t deserve the same protections as other people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u002260986e42962a413ca54dba28845bd208\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002260986e42962a413ca54dba28845bd208\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I\u2019d like to take the opportunity to speak to the amendment put forward in my name to clause 4. In clause 4, in new section 67A(2)(c), I propose to insert a (d), which would state that an employer seeking to rely on a trial period must keep detailed records of the dismissal process for an employee under the section and that these records must record the correct reason for the dismissal and must be provided to the employee upon request.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to actually back up why I\u2019m proposing this change, because the regulatory impact statement\u2014and I\u2019m really pleased that the Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety has agreed to have a regulatory impact statement on this bill\u2014highlights some very good reasons why this amendment should be adopted. I\u2019d be interested in the Minister\u2019s feedback, because in the regulatory impact statement it does state that \u201CThere is limited research on the prevalence and extent of impacts of trial periods in New Zealand.\u201D So we don\u2019t know what the impact is, fully, on this. We have a lot of anecdotal evidence\u2014many of those incidents have been recalled in this House tonight\u2014but we do not have a good base of evidence in New Zealand around the impacts of this on both employee and employer. And if we have an Employment Relations Act, which this bill is amending, then we need to be understanding how the impact on that employment relationship between an employee and an employer plays out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EBy inserting a subsection (d) in section 67A(2) and requiring that we keep detailed records of the dismissal, that will enable us, going forward, to have that evidence base of understanding where, in fact, a 90-day dismissal period is being utilised. Is it, in fact, going to provide greater flexibility in the labour market and be endearing employers to take more people on? It\u2019s a great thing, in general. Or is it, in some instances, being utilised at the detriment of the working rights of New Zealanders who have no comeback when they\u2019re told to leave and not come back the next day? I think we know that we should have that information available to us, and, furthermore, I\u2019d like to quote the regulatory impact statement that the evaluation that was undertaken back in 2016 did not find any specific evidence of an economy-wide effect. We need to know that. This is going to have a huge impact. We know that there\u2019s a large number of people who will now be potentially impacted upon by this legislative change. Do we not owe it to ourselves as lawmakers and good policy makers to be able to enshrine within this legislation a way of understanding the impact of what this would do?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EAnd so my amendment is only right and fair; to say that we should be keeping good records and understanding, if someone is dismissed under this new provision, then we should know why they are dismissed. And, also, there is a fair right for workers to know why they were dismissed. Whether it be their hair colour, their weight, or whatever their employer has used as a reason, they should have that written down and have information made available to us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe regulatory impact statement also states that there are a number of old surveys that do provide some insights in terms of prevalence, through information on the impact on employees. But the impact on employees\u2014that information is limited. The current regulatory impact statement that accompanies this piece of legislation is clear in the fact that the impact on employees\u2014we just simply do not know that. So if that is the case right now, I think it is really important for the Minister to enlighten us, to understand what would be the impact and why we should not have a provision in this legislation for records to be kept and for the correct reason for dismissal, and for that to be provided to the employee upon request. That is my request to the Minister, and I\u2019ll be really keen and interested to hear her response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00229203faa9f88644d28548bfe387dbb732\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229203faa9f88644d28548bfe387dbb732\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I take the next call, I\u2019ll just remind the member who resumed her seat: you were speaking to your amendment that is relevant to clause 5, but I did allow that contribution to continue. So we just need to keep a close watch on some of those amendments, to make sure that they are relevant to the clause we are speaking to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u00222ab39a43f158412e98933e2e268c6871\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ab39a43f158412e98933e2e268c6871\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you for giving me that call. I\u2019m actually speaking to two amendments that I have put forward in my name and they are both ones that I\u2019m passionate about and they both pertain to clause 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EBasically, the first one is in clause 4 after section 67A(2)(c) insert \u201C(d) 67A(2)(c) does not apply if the employee identifies as M\u0101ori or identifies as Pasifika, or identifies as a woman, or is disabled.\u201D The second clause is in clause 4 after section 67A(2)(c) insert \u201C(d) 67A(2)(c) does not apply to any employee who has been employed after being on a benefit.\u201D They are two that I am personally very, very passionate about and I\u2019m going to actually ask the Minister a question first because I may not get through this, so I want to just put my question out there to the Minister beforehand and then put the context around it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister is that for people who are in vulnerable situations, as has been identified, those that are most vulnerable under employment law, how is the power imbalance going to be addressed and what is available for those people in those situations? Now, that might sound very simple to the Minister, but the reason I ask is that it is because of the 90-day trials that I made the very difficult decision to come into Parliament. I had personal experience of this, and I was reminded of that when I was in the House earlier when I heard my colleague Rachel Boyack talking about her family member, and I was really appalled. It was a hard story to listen to, but I was really appalled when I heard from the other side an interjection that said something along the lines of \u201COh, it doesn\u2019t matter, they got over it, they got another job.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EWell, I can tell you a story where someone didn\u2019t have the opportunity to get another job. And that is a former pupil of mine who on day 86 of their 90-day trial was let go and had no reason given to him why he was let go. Now, that might have been illegal, but he did not have the wherewithal to know whether that was illegal or not. Now, this was a pupil who I had had a lot to do with over the years. I wouldn\u2019t say that we always got on when he was a pupil; he was one of the more colourful people, but I always had a very big soft spot for him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003EWhen he was let go, it was very tough for him, and he actually went into a deep depression. I had only seen him about three months earlier and things were great. He had his first job, he had things going right for him in his life, and then suddenly this happened. Now, he\u2019d come off a benefit. He had gone into this job. This was the best thing that had happened to him in his life. Then he was let go and given no understanding of why that happened. Two weeks later he took his own life. And talking with his mother\u2014and I still have that recollection in my head every single day that I am in this place because it brought me here\u2014seeing the pain, seeing a young life snuffed out because of a 90-day trial. It is not right. This is bad law and it\u2019s just being made worse under this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003ESo that is the question that I have for the Minister, and it is a real question. What is it that those people who are so vulnerable, who don\u2019t understand the law like we understand in this place; they don\u2019t sit down and read the law, they don\u2019t sit down and read these Acts. They don\u2019t know about people that can advocate for them. They just want to work. They just want to be valued because all through their life very few people have valued them. For that young man, this was the first time in his life that he felt valued, and that law took that away from him. It was because of that that I felt a passion to come into this place\u2014to leave something that I was passionate about. Because we can make law better, but what we\u2019re doing here this evening is making that law worse for those people, and that is such a shame.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003ESo, again, I ask: what is it that those people can access? And how do they know that they can access it? Because it is not easy for them out there, and I implore the Minister to go out and sit beside those people in those situations, because life is just hard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022b03105053ed841359cbcf6a039c6a5df\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b03105053ed841359cbcf6a039c6a5df\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to honour the contributions from the previous speaker, the Hon Jan Tinetti, and acknowledge the real-life impact that bills like this and policies like this can have on people. I hope that in this clause, Madam Chair, because of the kind of substantive element that it covers in terms of the clarification of those trials and how they work, we can go a bit deeper into the analysis that we didn\u2019t get a chance to at select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EMy question was hoping to get\u2014I touched on it earlier but it wasn\u2019t addressed whatsoever and I think this is another good part to try and get it addressed again\u2014into the impacts of wage scarring. Why I wanted to get the Minister to address the issue of wage scarring is because of the fact that we haven\u2019t got any analysis or comments, actually, from the Minister around the impact on households when somebody jumps from finally receiving an income to then potentially being out of work, into a benefit. That actually puts people in a situation where, because the benefit is so low, they may feel forced to take a job that would have paid less than the previous job they had. I believe that this bill contributes to wage scarring; it contributes to lowering wages. I want to see if the Minister had any insights on what she considers is the impact on wage scarring and household incomes because of this policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a38ead1fd23f4849b406d9883cdfca5b\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Relevance?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221dbb2881301c4452bfbf51ff36e3de82\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: I can hear the members on my left making snarky comments, and to be honest I heard those even through the very sensitive contributions that the Hon Jan Tinetti made earlier regarding issues of suicide, and I\u2019d like those members to get a grip and understand that these are questions that we\u2019re asking because we care about our communities, because we care about our constituents and the workers who are going to be impacted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ESo I just reiterate, my question is: has the Minister asked, seen, or got any analysis regarding the impact of this bill in relationship to the issue of wage scarring?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4d6776ceeb148efbc93252f39a79b49\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4d6776ceeb148efbc93252f39a79b49\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana, Madam Chair, thank you. I note from the regulatory impact statement (RIS)\u2014and thank the Minister for providing the cover sheet of that\u2014that where it relates to clause 4, option three in the RIS, looking at paragraph 64, it talks about the fact that \u201Cfewer than 20 employees [would] represent around 89 percent of [businesses]\u201D. So this extension, effectively, would extend by 11 percent. In light of the fact that we haven\u2019t had a select committee process to hear from either the 89 percent or the 11 percent of businesses\u2014not to mention the employees who might be affected by this\u2014I have an amendment in my name which seeks an amendment in clause 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EClause 4 itself, as members will know, seeks to insert a new section 67A that outlines the process for a provision of a trial period of 90 days set within that. The amendment in my name seeks to insert a new section 67A(3), in that a valid trial provision must state a couple of things. I\u2019m interested in the Minister\u2019s views as to perhaps whether she thinks these should be included, or, if not, why they shouldn\u2019t be included. The first is the genuine business reasons based on reasonable grounds for inserting a trial period in the employment agreement, and that relates to providing some weight around the genuine nature of the concerns that might be expressed by an employer, but more specifically, the reasonable grounds that exist for placing that condition within the terms of the employment agreement\u2014that\u2019s the first one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe second one is around where a trial period is used to dismiss the employee, to provide the process for advising the employee as to why their employment is ending in that way. And I think, Minister\u2014we\u2019ve already heard from other members in the Chamber that there are many people who are employees who just want to work, and perhaps are not au fait with legislative provisions or what particular aspects in an employment agreement might be. And it\u2019s all good and well for people to say, \u201CWell, they should just know that before they sign it.\u201D But when someone is on the bones of their backside and they need a job; they need work\u2014many will do what it takes in order to secure that. And so that provision really does provide for an opportunity to advise the employee\u2014the person for whom this has the significant impact\u2014on why their employment is ending, but, in particular, what the process is: the process for advising. Not the process that might take place, but the process for informing or advising an employee why their employment might be ending in that particular way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard a wee bit about the power imbalance, and I think what would be helpful to hear from the Minister is considerations around process and how there is going to be an acceptance or a guarantee that those employees who might be subject to a process in this particular manner will be made aware of not just their obligations but what the process means for them. And remembering that the decision by an employer to, effectively, dismiss an employee is a pretty significant one. It is a pretty serious one, and so I think members on this side of the Chamber\u2014and certainly myself\u2014are interested in hearing from the Minister around what provisions either exist in the legislation or why she won\u2019t support the amendment in my name to ensure that there is a process in place for employees who may find themselves in a situation where the end result is one of being dismissed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EMuch has been said about the parent Act itself and the provisions of the principle of good faith, and so the amendment that I put forward\u2014and I\u2019ve got a couple more that we\u2019ll deal with, perhaps later\u2014really does lend itself to ensuring that the good-faith principle, which is the overarching consideration here, is actually available, not just to the employee but also to the employer, so that the employer is aware of what the process might be if they choose to engage that functional aspect of dismissal and then to be able to provide the employee with the opportunity to understand why things are taken in a particular way. So I\u2019d appreciate the Minister addressing those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022 data-id=\u002270b025799bdd444f84a170b3e5268533\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270b025799bdd444f84a170b3e5268533\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I will take the opportunity to respond to quite a few contributions so far\u2014a number of which already repeat themselves in substance, so I\u2019ll take them together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EFor the amendments from both the Hon Ginny Andersen and from Tangi Utikere, there are questions about providing reasons for dismissal. One was, of course, about inserting a new clause\u2014as was the other. The reason why we are not detailing that businesses \u201Cmust\u201D provide an answer is because this is a Government that is seeking to reduce regulation and reduce burden and reduce red tape on employers. However, I\u2019d also like to point both members to the fact that there is nothing precluding an employee from asking what the reason is for their dismissal. That is perfectly in line with current legislation and we\u2019re not removing that ability to occur.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EI wanted to take the chance to respond to Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March talking about wage-scarring impacts of the 90-day trials. This is a Government that is hoping to extend the availability to increase job opportunities, and we believe that this is what this law will do. It will expand the number of job opportunities that will provide more opportunity for people to be able to progress their career and increase their incomes by increasing marketplace flexibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EI wanted to take the time to respond to the Hon Phil Twyford and the Hon Jan Tinetti, who both had similar amendments and both were about certain groups being excluded from the 90-day trial provision. This bill is intended to help people have more job opportunities and people that may be considered disadvantaged by the members. We believe, on this side of the Chamber, that people will be better off because they\u2019ll have more opportunities; because they will have more business confidence and more ability for people to have a go in the labour market.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EPeople can still bring a personal grievance claim related to discrimination; we\u2019re certainly not removing that\u2014that is very important to note. But we believe that this law will allow more labour market flexibility and more job growth for people who those members may consider to be disadvantaged. But I also just wanted to take the opportunity to thank the member for her contribution. It was very emotional and I certainly hope that the family members and friends of that individual do find peace.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u002264846ce4b65e4c5b8f59f2ecd1f27712\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002264846ce4b65e4c5b8f59f2ecd1f27712\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. I just want to seek some clarification because of the previous comments you have made around a few of the amendments, including those that are in clause 5 as another clause. I just want to seek your guidance on whether you expect us to have a debate on potentially adding that additional clause and whether you\u2019d want us to have that debate right at the end, or at what point do you think some of those amendments may be appropriate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255682a66efaa45d0b4f0b92598af73ea\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Can you elaborate on which amendments you\u2019re talking to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299a06f3da1cb436c938f2f274fe1bc41\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: So, I mean, because I know that some of the themes we\u2019re covering are already there in the additional clauses\u2014for example, several amendments that I\u2019ve put in, so, for example, my amendment 6 which adds a new clause 6. I just want to seek clarification as to whether you\u2019re going to ask for a debate around clause 6, or at what point do you want us to have those debates?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad5195f3159245dd843b8ba7fd0ea726\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The short answer is yes, there will be an opportunity to debate a clause 6 amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022faff1ff794e84874b0159865724ee6f3\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: The new clause 6?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff3a375919be4b0fb151f2e906a9b86d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: But not in clause 4, no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276b9dc3067b141f28a81f34895cde44f\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u002238ef113acb6846d7a5c1d6c69293014a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002238ef113acb6846d7a5c1d6c69293014a\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. And may I have 5 minutes? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe reason why there are so many tabled amendments that are being proposed by my colleagues to clause 4 is that we find ourselves in a situation where the Act that is being amended\u2014the Employment Relations Act 2000\u2014retains those grounds of prohibited discrimination which someone may bring a personal grievance for, but this amendment Act that the Minister is proposing proposes to limit that in certain circumstances. So, Madam Chair, if you\u2019ll allow me to just explain the situation that we find ourselves in: because those grounds within the Employment Relations Act, the original Act, are preserved, you then have a situation where if someone is fired within\u2014dismissed within\u2014their 90 days, they have a question of whether they can bring the personal grievance on the grounds of prohibited discrimination, say, for example, because they are a woman. But then whether they should mention that they were also dismissed within the 90 days is at issue, because on the face of it they have been dismissed for reasons that were legal, but then they have this further sort of issue for an employment court to work through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s why there are so many tabled amendments\u201421, in fact\u2014in my name, and I hope to speak to them all and I will be economical with my time. The first I\u2019ll speak to, No. 1, is to amend clause 4 after section 67A(1) to insert a new (2), \u201CEmployers can only use a trial provision to dismiss an employee if they can prove that the employment of the employee has caused a material, financial, or reputational harm to the employer or the employer\u2019s organisation.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThis is a clause where I\u2019m trying to find a way through for the Chamber. This is not something that fits well with Labour Party values, but this is a way that we can acknowledge that though there are a divergence of views around the Chamber about what is appropriate here, to allow, say, market flexibility to allow employers the kind of flexibility that they need to operate in, this is something which says if there is a problem here, if you\u2019re a reasonable employer, you\u2019re just doing your best, whether you\u2019re a small employer or a large one, you\u2019ve taken a chance on somebody, you\u2019ve given a young guy a go and he\u2019s not the fit, you need to say, \u201CWell, the employment here is causing me financial hardship, it\u2019s causing me a financial problem.\u201D And, you know, you don\u2019t need to go and tell a regulator that. That is not extra regulation, you just have to keep proper records of it. It\u2019s an email between you and your chief financial officer, it\u2019s an email between the line manager and their boss. It\u2019s simply recording somewhere that it is reasonable because of the financial reasons of the business that it is appropriate to let this person go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EAnd just dealing with this point, this finds us a middle ground, because the Motu research that I referred to in one of my earlier contributions found in their inquiry into whether 90-day trial periods were a good thing for the economy as a whole\u2014they concluded that \u201Cthe main benefit of this policy was a decrease in dismissal cost for firms, while many employees faced increased uncertainty about their job security for three months after being hired.\u201D That independent research found that the balance was perhaps not right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo my question to the Minister is: is there a way that this sort of amendment, that finds that middle ground where employers, who all maintain a practice of keeping reasonable records about their employment decisions anyway\u2014should they be held to a standard where, look, if it\u2019s impacting on your business, we say, \u201CAll right, go for it, dismiss that employee because you\u2019ve given them a go and good on you.\u201D? So that is the first amendment that I hope the Minister will consider.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe second amendment that I wish to speak to is to replace section 67A with a new title. I\u2019m not splitting hairs here, but we\u2019ve worded it in a really weird way in the amendment bill that the Minister has proposed. She\u2019s saying, \u201C90 days or less\u201D. I would like it to say, \u201C90 or fewer days\u201D. That\u2019s the way I would say it and we should make that amendment now just so that our law reads correctly and is in plain language. I know the Minister is an advocate of plain language, straightforward language, less regulation, clearer language, and so I would hope that she would consider that amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe second tabled amendment that I wish to speak to is to clause 4 to replace section 67A(1) with a clarification about using the trial provisions only if the employee has not previously been employed by the employer. The current way that reads I don\u2019t think is clear enough and, you know, in the spirit of making sure that this law is plain language, that it reads well for employers like me and many of the members around the Chamber who have been employers in a situation where we\u2019ve had to make quick decisions\u2014we need the primary legislation to make sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022314691183687409ab3d7d8f7308f2eee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022314691183687409ab3d7d8f7308f2eee\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I have not had an opportunity yet to speak to this part of the bill, clause 4, but I do have a couple of amendments that I wanted to make. The first two are, I think, really sensible, pragmatic amendments which are very much in the spirit of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe first that I wanted to mention was, essentially, adding in to section 67A, which is in clause 4\u2014the area that we\u2019re currently debating in the bill\u2014to make sure that when people are able to be covered by a trial period, when people are either engaged as an employee, or if they, in fact, in the past, have been engaged as a contractor, they wouldn\u2019t be able to be covered by a new trial period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a clear policy direction within this piece of legislation and other pieces of legislation which have dealt with trial periods, which is very fundamental to the design of them, which, essentially, means that if you are already engaged as employee, you can\u2019t then have a valid trial period put into your contract of employment. That\u2019s clearly in this bill as well. So it\u2019s people who are currently employed with an employer who wouldn\u2019t have a trial period. That\u2019s because\u2014I mean, why would they? The justification for trial periods, even though I may not be one of the people that accept them, is clearly to allow an employer and employee to get to know one another. So that could also occur in other types of relationship akin to employment, so worker relationships.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI know that this is an area that the Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety is interested in, having read the coalition agreements and the ACT Party policies prior to the election. I know she\u2019s interested in looking at contractor law. I\u2019m not interested in discussing that particular aspect today, but, I think, to have a piece of legislation be enduring and also meet the policy objectives that she is trying to meet, why should contractors who have already had the opportunity to engage with an employer, although not in an employment situation, be subject to trial periods? I don\u2019t think the justification applies. They already know that contractor because they\u2019ve engaged with them. They know if they\u2019re reliable. They know if they\u2019re trustworthy. They know if they do a good job. They know if they\u2019re a good fit. They\u2019ve engaged with them. Yes, it could be in a slightly different way to an employee, but that\u2019s also true of existing employees who may be looking to move up within the organisation, which, possibly, could be more likely to be the case when you have trial periods, because you wouldn\u2019t be able to be subject to a trial period if you got a new job with your existing employer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo that is my amendment that I have tabled, which I think is within the spirit of the bill that\u2019s being put forward and would improve it. I encourage the Minister to consider it, and I would like to hear her response as to whether she will be supporting that particular amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe second amendment that I wanted to particularly mention was really about the situation that sometimes vulnerable employees find themselves in, which is when they, essentially, have a different employer, but, essentially, they don\u2019t really have a different employer. You know, the legal entity may change, they might have a different name on their employment contract, they might have a new contract, but, basically, the same people are doing the same work for pretty much the same people, and usually in the same locations. So I\u2019ve actually added that into my amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8d08814ca79427f93ed206119c74452\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a good amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200e5705906014b358cf657d97f1ce92b\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Trial periods wouldn\u2019t be applicable to an employer using a different name, or legal entity, but conducting the same or substantially the same work in the same location.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo there is quite a substantive part of the Employment Relations Act which deals with vulnerable workers and that type of situation. I think it should be really clear, within this bill, that we\u2019re not seeking to put trial periods in for those particular people. I think that is in line with the policy intent, because I think all of those other reasons are justifications for this policy: getting to know one another, finding a good fit. All of the things the Minister has proposed in her speeches in the different readings of this bill would not apply in that situation where there was a change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo I think those are two very good amendments. I do have a third one which I would like to speak to, but I would like to give the Minister the opportunity to respond.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022 data-id=\u0022d0c1b4041ce84bdcb668efa0fc0da2c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d0c1b4041ce84bdcb668efa0fc0da2c0\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u0022da81d9ce136346b9a9b99b1179d95ecb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da81d9ce136346b9a9b99b1179d95ecb\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to take this opportunity to address some of the amendments that I\u2019ve made on the Table that are actually related to each other.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EThe first one is about the possibility that there will be a carve-out; that the trial provision will be unlawful for any employee who has left another job to take work with an employer given the injustice of the employee\u2019s loss of work and the loss and, actually, the cost to the taxpayer if they are unemployed as a result of termination. So I want the Minister to tell me if she would consider this, because I understand, from her speeches, that what she\u2019s saying is motivating her is giving people a chance who may not find other employment and encouraging people who would otherwise be unemployed into the workforce. Yet, these people are employed and they are taking a huge risk going into a situation where they may not actually keep that job and they may suddenly find themselves in a situation where they have to go on the unemployment benefit and we all have to pay for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EThe other amendment that I\u2019ve put that I think relates to this is the one that I foreshadowed in my speeches tonight, which is the issue of restraints of trade. Because what I have seen in a lot of agreements is the increasing use of restraints of trade with low-wage workers. If it\u2019s combined with a trial period, you are putting people in a situation where they may well go into an employment situation and be dismissed but actually be prevented from going out and getting another job. So I have suggested an amendment which is about making it unlawful for anybody to be held to a restraint of trade if they are dismissed in a trial period and that if, in fact, that happens, that they will be free to compete.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ENow, I have made sure that in my amendment I have addressed the issue of confidential information; that if you\u2019re given trade secrets or confidential information, this is something that, of course, you should keep and there should be right to suit if you don\u2019t. But if it is a matter of competing with your employer, then it\u2019s very important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI would just like to talk a little bit to the mischief here, because this is not fantasy: this is happening all over the place. Big employers like Amazon have adopted restraints of trade for workers on as low as US$13.50 an hour. They put them in absolutely habitually and most employees don\u2019t actually look at these contracts when they\u2019re signing them because they\u2019ve got no bargaining power, which goes to my friend the Hon Phil Twyford\u2019s point about the inequality of bargaining power. They simply\u2014yes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1f02ad5ace6442491df3ade18acdb23\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry to interrupt the member, but you are speaking to clause 5. Your amendment relates to clause 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022310432e68dbd41b8897fe29557f68cf8\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE\u003C/span\u003E: I think I\u2019m speaking to clause 4 because what I\u2019m speaking to is an amendment which says that clause 4, after section 67A(1), insert, and then I\u2019m bracketing subclause (2) and then I\u2019m saying, \u201Ca trial provision will exclude\u201D\u2014. So I am speaking to clause 4; I\u2019m adding to clause 4\u2014an extra\u2014and I\u2019m carving out. So thank you, ma\u2019am. Is it all right to continue?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3b4911be23849ed9b44e1130232bcb2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely, continue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b737c77d87674545ace27a1f1f5aa0cf\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, ma\u2019am. So I am talking about a very real situation, and it\u2019s a trend that has been noted by big economists\u2014and they\u2019re not left-wing economists. They\u2019re people like Joseph Stiglitz, who\u2019ve noted that this is happening. There has been a lot of research in America, which actually goes to another point, ma\u2019am, if I can just have a little bit more time because I\u2019ve got another amendment on the Table which suggests that what people should do is, if they\u2019re going to put a trial period in the agreement, they should lodge it with the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ESo the reason for doing that is it turns out we have very little information about 80 percent of employment agreements. So because we have these employment agreements in individual form, nobody knows what\u2019s in them. You\u2019re very unlikely, Minister, to know whether these impacts that you\u2019re talking about are real or whether there is exploitation. So, for example, this kind of issue that I\u2019m bringing up about restraints of trade and the\u2014[Time expired]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab3c6a827ee54eb0be665cc94c18e6d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab3c6a827ee54eb0be665cc94c18e6d1\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you very much. Tuatahi, Madam Chair, e mihi ana ki a koe m\u014D t\u014D kaha ki te whakaputa i t\u014D whakaaro e p\u0101 ana ki t\u014D hoa. Ng\u0101 mihi aroha ki a koe. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E[Firstly, Madam Chair, I would like to acknowledge you for your strength to express your thoughts about your friend. Heartfelt acknowledgments.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EJust speaking to clause 4, supporting the Hon Phil Twyford\u2019s view\u2014his amendment\u2014in terms of M\u0101ori, Pasifika, women, and those who are under the age of 30 or disabled, I was the employment Minister for three years. I was wanting to ask the Minister: as she looked at this, did she have a look back at some of the work we did with these groupings? We had employment action plans for all of those groups. We had a M\u0101ori action plan. We had a Pasifika action plan, a women\u2019s one, a disabled one, and I think it would be incredibly helpful for the Minister to have a look at those reports, which told us about the different disparities, about the problems particularly that M\u0101ori workers have faced over the years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EWhen I became employment Minister back in 2017, the M\u0101ori unemployment rate, for instance, was close to three times what the mainstream, or P\u0101keh\u0101, unemployment rate was at the time. It\u2019s really important for our Minister here to get her head around, I suppose, some of the barriers and some of the problems that so many of those M\u0101ori workers were facing and have faced. Under my chair, we got to facilitate the M\u0101ori strategy with a woman by the name of Janice Panoho, who was a very senior union organiser within the Public Service Association, and a very dear friend of mine, too, might I add, having organised with her many years ago. I think that this\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ce7be18fd7740929876a17656ad99bf\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Is this relevant?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ffc179fc9a54ec38524a9c5ebdf7011\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m talking about this amendment that has been put up by Phil Twyford, which identifies M\u0101ori, Pasifika, and women as groups who need the support and who will be disproportionately affected by this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EAs we know, lower job security particularly impacts these groups, and the question I have for our Minister is: is she going to go through those reports that were put up\u2014the employment action plans that were put up by each group\u2014that traversed all the different areas? When you look at the disabled report, you will see what some of these workers had to face. They couldn\u2019t even get through the door sometimes\u2014they couldn\u2019t even get through the door. Never had a chance. It was terrible, and I think it\u2019s emotive reading for a lot of us. We don\u2019t actually understand, and then when you see the barriers in terms of these trial periods, it can be heartbreaking for so many of them. And, of course, the percentages are weighted so much against M\u0101ori, against Pasifika, against women, against the disabled community, that we had to put in targeted programmes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EI ask the Minister: will those types of programmes still be receiving support from this Government\u2014programmes that looked after young people, looked after women, looked after M\u0101ori? Mana in Mahi was one of the big successes. That can be a success for everyone, which is something I worked on with one of the current coalition partners\u2014He Poutama Rangatahi, getting nephs off the couch. These supported the M\u0101ori rural areas very, very much. So I ask again: will the Minister be looking at these plans, talking to some of the chairs, a number of them women who have done extensive work in our communities? I think that it could be good for all parties if she was able to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022 data-id=\u00221acc267a016a4d979ccd865392bf9dbc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221acc267a016a4d979ccd865392bf9dbc\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019d like to take the chance to respond to a number of members and their queries, starting with the Hon Willie Jackson. I won\u2019t go over my previous response to the Hon Phil Twyford\u2019s amendment. I\u2019ve already done that, so we are repeating ourselves, but I also note that contributions about his past works as a former Minister are not actually relevant to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EI also note, speaking to the questions from Helen White about restraints of trade, I really commend the member for wanting to talk about her own member\u2019s bill which is at select committee\u2014love the opportunity\u2014but that\u2019s also not part of the bill and it won\u2019t be after this goes through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to take the chance to respond to Camilla Belich, who had a number of amendments. The first was to extend the 90-day trials to contractors, and I\u2019d just like to alert the member to the fact that contractors are not employees and don\u2019t have employment agreements, and so that\u2019s not really relevant to this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EWe had Arena Williams talking about wanting employees to only be able to use a trial provision to dismiss an employee if they can prove that the employment of that employee has caused immaterial, financial, or reputational harm. The whole purpose of this bill is to reduce red tape, reduce regulation, reduce bureaucracy, and make our labour market more flexible for employers so more employees are given an opportunity. This is a significant procedural requirement and so we do not support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EI also wanted to take the opportunity to briefly touch on the fact that she\u2019s talking about the word \u201Cfewer\u201D or \u201Clesser\u201D when it comes to 90 days fewer or 90 days or less. Look, you might want to bring up a talking point with the legal drafters of the laws around this place but I\u2019m not in the position of wanting to do that. I think the purpose of the draft is pretty clear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003ETalking to Camilla Belich also about her amendment to suggest that after an employer in the clause 67A(1) would also have an employer using a different name or legal entity but conducting the same or substantially the same work in the same location, I understand this is purporting to try and limit a trial period if an employer has multiple businesses but this is not actually changing the definition of an employer. The bill extends the availability of trial periods to all employers and doesn\u2019t change any of the other settings. So it\u2019s pretty clear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u002206c4c8f5bd19417e9943725501986d1b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002206c4c8f5bd19417e9943725501986d1b\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m really chuffed that you chose me to take a call on this bill, the Employment Relations (Trial Periods) Amendment Bill. I have a couple of amendments to clause 4, and I just want to clarify that they are to clause 4, and they are on the Table. I\u2019m quite a pragmatic person, so for me it\u2019s about providing an alternative solution for the Minister, and I want to understand the Minister\u2019s views in relation to my amendments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EMy first amendment would replace all references to a \u201Cmaximum trial period of 90 days\u201D with references to a \u201Cmaximum trial period of 45 days.\u201D So that is a shortening of the 90-day trial\u2014it would be a 45-day trial. So if you go to the regulatory impact statement and you work through the problem definition: employers not able to use the 90-day trial period\u2014so maybe a 45-day trial period\u2014because they weren\u2019t hiring new employees due to the risk that new employees may not be a good match and could result in an unproductive employment relationship. OK\u2014tick. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ESo let\u2019s have a look at the options. So if you go to the regulatory impact statement, and I\u2019m going to use the same criteria that officials used in their regulatory impact statement, the options that were provided by officials, and I\u2019m not talking to their options; I\u2019m talking to my 45-day trial and the options have been assessed against the following criteria. Does the policy encourage employers to take on more employees, particularly disadvantaged job seekers? I believe a 45-day period does provide that, because it still allows employers to take on more employees but also the ability for it to be reduced to 45 days means that there\u2019s still a bit of balance on both sides, not just for the employer but also the employee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EA shorter period means it\u2019s a shorter cloud, a shorter grey area, for employees around the unjustified dismissal element. The second criteria that officials used to address the policy problem is: does the policy reduce the process costs and risks of a personal grievance for employers? Well, yes, because I\u2019m not saying it\u2019s 90 days. I\u2019m saying it\u2019s still 45 days; it just half the time. It is ultimately a little bit more balanced on the employee\u2019s side, but it is still 45 days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThe next question is: does the policy increase security for employees when beginning a new employment relationship? In some ways it could seem contradictory that I\u2019d be saying that, actually, for employees it\u2019s 45 days so therefore there is almost less security. But, actually, it\u2019s just greater certainty for them. It\u2019s 45 days. I know people who have got married after knowing each other for 45 days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f42321e9749142fca4a5cf4c9dff9e0c\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: What!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1a82b7a5acf49b78b1385d49f11d5e1\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: Not me. I\u2019m saying that 45 days is still a period of time whereby the employee and the employer get to know each other, the employer gets to understand if the person is the type of person that matches the job expectations in the description. So I believe that in some respects that third criteria that officials have used to basically analyse their different options does weigh towards the employee a little bit more than the employer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThe next criteria that officials use is: does the policy provide certainty for employers and employees regarding their employment rights and obligations? Yes, it does. It just makes it really clear it\u2019s 45 days. So it\u2019s similar to everything else that\u2019s been covered in the regulatory impact statement for the 90-day period but it\u2019s shorter at 45. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EAnd is the option simple to implement? I believe it is. We currently have a framework, and the Minister is obviously looking to implement parts of that framework. I think that having a shorter period of 45 days is a way to balance it up a bit more. Currently, as the Minister just responded to a number of questions, she said it\u2019s about reducing compliance costs and\u2014a number of things, actually; I only heard the first one about compliance costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EI believe that this is a bit more balanced in that it\u2019s 45 days. For the employee it means there is a shorter period of harm for them because they understand really clearly. The employer knows whether it\u2019s working or not for them in that first month and a half. I\u2019d really like to know the Minister\u2019s views on whether a 45-day period could actually work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EI also want to speak to my second amendment, which is on the Table. It\u2019s not 45 days; it\u2019s even shorter. My second amendment to clause 4 replaces the reference to the word \u201Cdays\u201D in section 67A with \u201Chours\u201D. So it\u2019s a similar argument except that instead of 90 days, how about 90 hours?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022 data-id=\u0022f2468e960d5245508878ced7dee2b08e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f2468e960d5245508878ced7dee2b08e\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I thought I\u2019d take the opportunity to respond to all three of the member\u2019s amendments and say that we will not be supporting any of them. The time period is at 90 days; it makes it pretty straightforward. It will be 90 days for small and medium, 90 days for larger, so therefore 90 days for all employees. But also, reducing that amount of time by the extent that she is desiring\u2014within a few days\u2014doesn\u2019t actually give the opportunity for an employer and an employee to form a relationship, and to see whether or not they are a good fit for each other. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022 data-id=\u002229fb34364c1d4f5b8528cc08ed418366\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002229fb34364c1d4f5b8528cc08ed418366\u0022\u003EMILES ANDERSON (National\u2014Waitaki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u00226e87ed90864b43a78b743f133ee5109e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e87ed90864b43a78b743f133ee5109e\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak again on this clause. What I wanted to clarify is, respectfully, I think the Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety has misunderstood the amendments that I\u2019ve tabled in clause 4. The Minister stated that contractors are not covered by 90-day trials, which of course I know. There is no need for a contractor to be covered by a 90-day trial, because they have no employment rights because all of their rights are bound up in the interpretation of their contract.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe point of my amendment was to state that if someone is to follow the policy of the clause\u2014which was, essentially, if someone had been previously employed by someone else, by a company, then they\u2019re not able to be covered by a trial period. So my proposition, with the amendment, was to state that if they had been engaged in another capacity as a contractor, then, by that same employer, even though that was a contractual relationship\u2014as a contractor and not an employment relationship\u2014surely the same logic applies: that they shouldn\u2019t be covered by a 90-day trial. And that is what I explained in my first contribution. The purpose, as the Minister had stated it, of the 90-day trial period, was, essentially, to get to know, find a good fit\u2014I think she\u2019s used that term\u2014get to know one another, make sure that they work with the team, that they can undertake the jobs well. And a lot of that, if not all of that, would be just as easily obtained as knowledge by the employer in a contractual relationship. I did state in my first contribution that of course that wouldn\u2019t necessarily be exactly the same, but it would be sufficiently similar, I believe, that it could be considered to strengthen this particular piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe second matter\u2014which I don\u2019t think, perhaps it was in the way that I explained it, was not fully grasped by the Minister\u2014was the amendment that I had raised in relation to people who may work for a company and then that company either dissolves or is insolvent, and a new company jumps up in its place that is, essentially, run by the same people, starts trading, and then is, essentially, considered to be a new employer under the legislation. I don\u2019t think it\u2019s the intent of this legislation to cover people in those situations. Part 6A of the Employment Relations Act covers a number of these employees in these types of situations, where there\u2019s often, you find\u2014in cleaning companies, for example, you might have people continuing to do the same work but their employer might change. There\u2019s provisions within the Principal Act that this bill amends to deal with them. I was talking about that type of situation, where, genuinely, the person isn\u2019t really, if you look at it, actually in new employment. They\u2019re, basically, continuing their same job, although the name of their employer on their employment agreement might be different.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo those were the amendments, and I just felt that the Minister hadn\u2019t grasped the intention of those. They are made in good faith and I do think they would strengthen this piece of legislation, and they\u2019re in line with the principles of the legislation. So those were the clarifications that I wanted to make in relation to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI did have another amendment in relation to clause 4, to change section 67A(2)(c) to replace \u201Cnot entitled\u201D with \u201Cnot required\u201D. Now, you may say that that\u2019s not within the spirit of this Act, which seeks to not allow personal grievances, but I would say a legal interpretation of that change would be to allow personal grievances, yes, but on a slightly lesser basis than they are currently permitted to people who are not covered by trial periods. So that amendment to clause 4, I think, would perhaps achieve the policy objective that the Minister intends to achieve with this piece of legislation, by kind of not really encouraging a personal grievance in that particular situation, but not going so far as to say that they were totally prohibited by it. And so that\u2019s why I think that additional amendment that I proposed to clause 4 is also helpful to perhaps meet the policy objectives, but with not such a harsh piece of legislation to actually remove the rights of personal grievances within trial periods.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s really important\u2014and I wonder if the Minister could reflect on this a wee bit. I don\u2019t feel that she fully addressed the point that I made around the ability to bring personal grievances and have that consistent with good faith, and to bring a personal grievance where there\u2019s discrimination, but to be dismissed. I don\u2019t feel that that has been answered by the Minister yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u0022b396fd7ac94f472d86ffcafc3c75bb41\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b396fd7ac94f472d86ffcafc3c75bb41\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u002210669703435b43f4b0f57c13c5dbb7ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002210669703435b43f4b0f57c13c5dbb7ae\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Madam Chair. I just want to note that there are still a number of amendments tabled on the Table with content\u2014including mine and I\u2019ve been seeking the call\u2014that haven\u2019t been addressed yet on amendments, and I think that we are calling this debate to a close too early. There are amendments still to be discussed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022b190e64999f6431d9f5619fd2f430bd4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b190e64999f6431d9f5619fd2f430bd4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member; that\u2019s not a point of order. I have made sure that everyone with amendments on the Table has had a chance to speak in this debate. The question is that the debate on this question now close. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002201baa9e251774b5d8711f7e3987bdbb0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00229f9226c4d98f49beb228f7b68e584b35\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229f9226c4d98f49beb228f7b68e584b35\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendments to clause\u00A04, the heading to section 67A and 67A(1), are out of order as not being serious amendments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EThe question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 4, amending section 67A(2)(c) to delete the words \u201Cor other legal proceedings\u201D, be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022206fb0add3aa4f22ab3607403555570c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00228b9a6061badc4b6ebee1c3a1209af9e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b9a6061badc4b6ebee1c3a1209af9e5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Arena Williams\u2019 remaining tabled amendments to clause 4, section 67A(2) are out of order as being contrary to the objects and principles of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EThe Hon Phil Twyford\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 4, setting out that an employment agreement cannot contain a trial period if it is to apply to certain types of employee, is out of order as being contrary to the objects and principles of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EThe Hon Barbara Edmonds\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 4, replacing the word \u201Cdays\u201D in section 67A with \u201Chours\u201D, is out of order as being contrary to the objects and principles of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EThe Hon Barbara Edmonds\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 4, replacing all references to a maximum trial period from 90 days to seven days, is out of order as being contrary to the objects and principles of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EThe question is that the Hon Barbara Edmonds\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 4, replacing all references to a maximum trial period from 90 days to 45 days, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022dd8f1022786d4399980640e66439a295\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00229729881890f04a73a3535c9e869bb2a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229729881890f04a73a3535c9e869bb2a5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Camilla Belich\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 4, inserting words into section 67A(1) after the words \u201Cby that employer\u201D, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226f6f12c4a8cc42c69adacefdd048aca1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022616be570dea24847a0bab43d38f32260\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022616be570dea24847a0bab43d38f32260\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Camilla Belich\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 4, inserting into new section 67A(1) the words \u201Cor engaged as a contractor\u201D, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ff7c601033be44d995d3408a850054c9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002219a19f17446648ec8570bce7aaaaddf4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002219a19f17446648ec8570bce7aaaaddf4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Camilla Belich\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 4, replacing in section 67A(2)(c) the words \u201Cnot entitled\u201D with \u201Cnot required\u201D, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d93da7668b9e442e9cbf16a30ddb11ce\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2ded44958d2413b923f9f35f2d2671b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2ded44958d2413b923f9f35f2d2671b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Helen White\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 4, requiring trial provisions in employment agreements to be lodged with the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment in a prescribed format, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e88ed003a26e4d3bb442ab08be0c4516\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002288923043939d4f508a3507aa71c76eb6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288923043939d4f508a3507aa71c76eb6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Helen White\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 4, requiring employers seeking to implement trial provisions to provide employees with a form approved by the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222c94410e39044aaeb2a4af53b19bf834\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00229d6c86147aeb461a97d7459bd3d6dde4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d6c86147aeb461a97d7459bd3d6dde4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Tangi Utikere\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 4, setting out criteria for valid trial provisions, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d2ff0b5c6bbf46969790a3403a5ae234\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00224958390e4cf74e2db49a5d56901e5afb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224958390e4cf74e2db49a5d56901e5afb\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Rachel Boyack\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 4, limiting trial periods to employment agreements with a salary in the top income quintile, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225bcc4474ef994eb5b6f5a1d51e9107c5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022de2200811dc949f39ceb461c78032666\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de2200811dc949f39ceb461c78032666\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Rachel Boyack\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 4, limiting trial provisions to employees who earn more than the New Zealand median wage, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ed3fb798dfb04782b7f9b7065e88cbe8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00222e52d326d0424a11bf39a01315aa12f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e52d326d0424a11bf39a01315aa12f5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Jan Tinetti\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 4, enabling a dismissed beneficiary turned employee to bring a personal grievance, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002264f146c4b9044a6b8c4de1c335c0a2a0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00225b530ad87b7b480da1238bf90acfde3f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b530ad87b7b480da1238bf90acfde3f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Jan Tinetti\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 4, enabling dismissed M\u0101ori, Pasifika, women, and disabled people to bring a personal grievance, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002224aa51962dfb4cc99234367c2f8d23b6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224254f8b31bbc4ecab320c483f1068b57\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 4 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 4 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002288ad05e57c104375afc392c7af3a0c97\u0022\u003EClause 5  Section 67B amended (Effect of trial provision under section 67A) \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022f4aa2f307e8d4868923083f328e2d2c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f4aa2f307e8d4868923083f328e2d2c2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to clause 5. Clause 5, \u201CSection 67B amended (Effect of trial provision under section 67A)\u201D. The question is that clause 5 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022a426fa476e0d4d4194a69e176b03c6c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a426fa476e0d4d4194a69e176b03c6c4\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Madam Chairperson. Thank you, Madam Chair. I waited until after the vote because I thought that was the appropriate course of action. However, last evening, earlier in urgency, I raised a point of order when a closure was accepted, pointing out that there were a number of spokespeople and a number of outstanding questions. At the end of that point of order, you replied that that was a fair point, and now, we find ourselves\u2014when a point of order was raised by Rachel Boyack, your response was that all those with amendments had spoken to those amendments. Now, if the response was that there was repetition or that there were issues around relevancy, we absolutely accept that, as that is your call as Chair. But the reason that everyone had spoken to their amendments is a new one to me, and so I was hoping you could point us to the relevant Standing Order or Speaker\u2019s ruling around those with amendments, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002263d88bbb7ed34300bca6aa680c80bc3c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263d88bbb7ed34300bca6aa680c80bc3c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for his point of order there. If he could see my run sheet, he will see that I have noted the relevance and the repetition. I was helping the member by explaining that I had made sure that everyone had spoken to their amendments, but there was starting to be repetition. So I feel valid in the call that I made. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279eac2ad5eae46578b8f64c4dd0a68a3\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231e2d79d02c343b7a4fe725f62d99263\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Is it a new point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0626d3ac6a94ef59cb5fac42c987302\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: It is. It\u2019s a question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecfdddacbc0f43e1b62c88034adb54be\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, the Hon Kieran McAnulty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022e4372c656b8f481582db63ed31957f85\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e4372c656b8f481582db63ed31957f85\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I want to know if this is a new Speaker\u2019s ruling, and whether we can expect that whether those that have spoken to their amendments is going to be a reason for closure moving forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8fe5c2d36e54bfbbe819a42c8d5cc4f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8fe5c2d36e54bfbbe819a42c8d5cc4f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not a point of order, the Hon Kieran McAnulty. We\u2019re going to move on to clause\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bc32dafae334e42975858e769fc36ee\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f4d3f23b6404cf1b27b77e3a7d42c38\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Is this a new point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00222494f48224214f9db2aafe370675f4a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222494f48224214f9db2aafe370675f4a6\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is. I think you\u2019ll find, Madam Chair, that asking if a ruling from a presiding officer is a new Speaker\u2019s ruling is entirely appropriate and has been done numerous times.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022f01914e2fe3646b3849235c67cdd12f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f01914e2fe3646b3849235c67cdd12f9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Just to close off this debate, it is the Chair\u2019s discretion to take a closure motion. I have done that. We are moving on to clause 5. The question is that clause 5 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u00227817ce3751a04efda1b880bc7aeb8e77\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227817ce3751a04efda1b880bc7aeb8e77\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E New point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfce7694690b42ef83bdc2ac80bfbb8c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: It is a new point of order? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b6bacd7b46040af9c07a0e0c9c244dd\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: It is a new point of order. Thank you, Madam Chair. I have been asking this because I feel like it\u2019s still unclear to me on which clause we can genuinely, meaningfully impact all the things in valid questions that we would have had in the select committee stage. We know that there\u2019s no select committee stage, but there\u2019s a lot of things that we normally\u2014and answers would have happened, Minister, that may sit outside of those clauses that are valid otherwise. So I was just checking: would that be in the following clause, because the opportunities to unpack those things are running out, and I\u2019m really concerned about\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022888c68ba37c44306bdaefa1599418840\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not a point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u0022ff3041fe54f4402190cd405fbb7ac46e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ff3041fe54f4402190cd405fbb7ac46e\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, I do have a further point of order to raise because I do want it to be noted that despite the claim that all speakers with amendments were able to speak to their amendments on clause 4, I was not able to speak to the two amendments that I put forward on clause 4. I did speak earlier, not on amendments, but on other matters on previous clauses. But I was not granted a call on clause 4 where I did have two amendments, so I do want to put that on record.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022f7360219332f4981a2ed3711fe7bde96\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f7360219332f4981a2ed3711fe7bde96\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that clause 5 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u00225a6d6bc022da4342ae98774400fde701\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a6d6bc022da4342ae98774400fde701\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Topical. I\u2019d like to speak to my amendments that relate to clause 5. One of the things that we know is going to be an issue going forward, and it\u2019s been an issue, is the lack of reasons; the fact that employers don\u2019t have to give a reason when they dismiss workers under the trial. One of my amendments which, after clause 5\u2014sorry, we actually repeal section 67B(5)(b). It would require employers to give a reason when people are dismissed as part of that 90-day trial. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI think why this is quite important is because the Minister has previously spoken to the fact that she wants the 90-day trials to give that greater flexibility and to address issues when what she describes as kind of not a good match between employers and those workers, right? But for that workers\u2019 professional development and for that worker to find sustainable long-term employment, it\u2019s then really hard to identify what is it, then, that that worker needs to change to find suitable employment and a better matching with future employers. So my amendment would then be able to at least add that safety net and that ability for that worker to have that professional development embedded in, because if that employer thinks that there is not a good match between themselves and the worker, that worker should at least be given that reason for why they were basically terminated under the 90-days trial. Without it, sure, there may be that greater flexibility for that employer, but the issue that she has described throughout the debate, of wanting to address in terms of the poor matching, isn\u2019t therefore being addressed in any way in this bill. So I think my amendment could actually support the Minister, making employers give those reasons. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThe other amendment I had in relation to this clause was to do with giving back the ability for workers to take some of these issues to the Employment Relations Authority, and this would basically be a check against the use of trial provisions by unscrupulous employers to dismiss employees unreasonably. It still remains that it is for the Employment Relations Authority to assess whether this application would be granted, and so there\u2019s still a level of discretion. But I hope the Minister can at least realise that there will be some employers who will be unscrupulous in their use. Even if we were to take the Minister\u2019s words in good faith around what she intends to do with this bill, which I personally disagree with, then we ought to believe that there will still be some employers who will be unscrupulous. I mean, members from the Government side have spoken about unscrupulous employer initiatives like migrant exploitation, and therefore there surely will be some that will be part of the 90-day trials. So I would love to know whether she thinks there should be that opportunity to grant the Employment Relations Authority to assess whether some employers have been unscrupulous in their use of the 90-day trials provisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThe other question I wanted to have was in relation to one of my other amendments which also would have added some extra safeguards and also would have addressed the points that I\u2019ve been raising throughout the debate around this not just being about a good match between the workers and the employers but also about having better management. One of the things that my amendment aims to create is alternatives to just dismissing those workers, and for employers to be required to explore alternatives other than just dismissing those workers. I think that would, in my view\u2014again, if one was to take the Minister\u2019s words in good faith\u2014actually help address those issues around good matching between employers and workers. So I\u2019d be keen to get an understanding, just to surmise, whether she thinks there should be other options that employers should consider as part of this before dismissing people and whether employers should be required to give a reason to workers, and, if not, why not? Because of that power imbalance that exists, I think it would be fair to have those reasons being given out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI also wanted to address and ask\u2014which I would have been able to do in the select committee stage\u2014whether a trial impact assessment was done, because this bill has the potential of having\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022 data-id=\u0022a825a3cd9d6d4d0a8d831f48abcb5c78\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a825a3cd9d6d4d0a8d831f48abcb5c78\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I just wanted to quickly respond to the member Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March, and I suspect this may come up quite a lot in the debate, so I wanted to start off in the way I intend to continue. I have already addressed the issue of whether or not employers should be forced to give reasons for dismissal in clause 4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022c1d1a664736647e0b2810f4f2af55e49\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c1d1a664736647e0b2810f4f2af55e49\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Speaking to clause 5, which amends 67B\u2014and I appreciate there was a little bit of uncertainty in relation to the overlap between clauses 4 and 5. So just to be clear, in subclause (1) of clause 5 it says \u201CIn section 67B(1), replace \u2018a small-to-medium-sized employer\u2019 with \u2018an employer\u2019.\u201D, and also, \u201CIn section 67B(5)(a) and (b), replace \u2018small-to-medium-sized employer\u2019 with \u2018employer\u2019.\u201D So, effectively, what this provision does is make that transition to just those small businesses\u2014which we know do take up a large proportion of the businesses in New Zealand\u2014with all employers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo I would just like to ask a question in relation to some of the material traversed in the regulatory impact statement. I would like to note also that given the short period of time that officials had to prepare this regulatory impact statement, and given the fact that there\u2019s quite a few bills going through this House lately without any regulatory impact statement, they\u2019ve done a pretty good job in highlighting what are potentially some of the deficiencies in passing legislation so abruptly without a full submission period at select committee. It\u2019s really important to note that in the regulatory impact statement, which I think directly relates to clause 5 of the bill, it says, \u201CWe consider that smaller employers are more likely to benefit from trial periods because they are less able to absorb the costs of a poor match or dismissal. In comparison, \u2026 employers can be more equipped to manage any dismissal processes and absorb the costs.\u201D\u2014so, obviously, by having an HR person or having a department on board. The regulatory impact statement notes that \u201CWe therefore consider that there are diminishing benefits from increasing the availability of trial periods to larger employers\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo given the fact that the Minister\u2019s own regulatory impact statement clearly states that there are diminishing benefits in increasing the applicability of the 90-day trial from small to medium enterprises to all businesses, I would be really interested to understand the rationale for this piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022 data-id=\u002213feb00aa8c74208afc4273d45bb8905\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213feb00aa8c74208afc4273d45bb8905\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and I will respond directly to the member so that we can get this one out of the way. The Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment did have a preferred option in the regulatory impact statement to maintain the status quo, but I also want to note that the analysis said it was also a finely balanced weigh up between the status quo and the Government\u2019s preferred option to extend the 90-day trial periods to all employers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EOne of the reasons that they gave, which the member has spoken to, is that larger employers are better placed to absorb the costs of dismissal. But this Government does not think this is a good way of approaching regulation. If there is a way for businesses to, you know, afford the cost of unnecessary regulation, that doesn\u2019t mean that they should afford the cost of unnecessary regulation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cc839b9525447c4b9ce0d39403c15ba\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002289b5f68553824c35a752a4009dc1ba0b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002289b5f68553824c35a752a4009dc1ba0b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The honourable, sorry, the honourable\u2014I know him well. It\u2019s just the name\u2019s not really\u2014Duncan Webb.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022c91bcb42437543fa9b40a3381f86ca82\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c91bcb42437543fa9b40a3381f86ca82\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks. Thank you, Mr Chair\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233f1368e44414b18830eab55a6f6af97\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t be insulted, Mr Webb. I\u2019ve forgotten names that are much better known.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a971c670607e4928be621b9cb28b5cbe\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. Look, it\u2019s a bit of levity in a very serious matter, because this bill\u2014I mean, I guess I have two, possibly three questions to speak to, and the amendment in my name. It strikes me that there\u2019s a continuum of egregiousness when an employer chooses to dismiss someone in the 90-day period. At one end, you know, there\u2019s the obvious: they can\u2019t do the job\u2014nothing wrong with that at all\u2014and then, further down the continuum, \u201CWe really rub each other up the wrong way. It\u2019s not going to be a great relationship.\u201D, and I can see something in that. But if we go right down the other end, \u201CI don\u2019t like Muslims\u201D is absolutely egregious and clearly a breach, and a prohibited ground of discrimination under the Human Rights Act. Or \u201Che\u2019s a bloody union member\u201D\u2014again, clearly a breach of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act and the right of freedom of association.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, whilst I can understand, if not agree, with the views at one end of the spectrum, the idea that there are no repercussions whatsoever under this proposed clause 6 amendment seems truly extraordinary to me. It may well be that the Human Rights Review Tribunal would have something to say about it, but, really, that is using a sledgehammer to crack a nut, which brings me to my proposed amendment, which is to insert into the proposed amendment section an additional subclause (6) that any disagreement between an employer and an employee about the use of a trial provision in an employment agreement must be referred to a mediation services resolution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220785811d36dc43acac046c643168519f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Dr Webb, are you talking about clause 6 or clause 5?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022446dc9c70e9247c291ba96e0c07d3d2a\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: New clause 6, sorry, sir\u2014inserting a new clause 6. So this is the, I understand, new clause 6. This is the appropriate point, I\u2019m pretty sure, at which to\u2014no, that\u2019s right. There is no clause 6. But there will be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d13d6fb9ea4d4d4891150c348dae78a6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Some of the amendments we\u2019re discussing on this particular part are pertaining to new clause 6 as well, but they also pertain to clause 5. So I just need to be just a little bit specific, because we will be debating a clause 6 shortly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227467ee3046f14b9195a9cf2fb5aa949f\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bdebee7f1ce4f25ada3b782fa8c78ff\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: If you can help with the explanation here, I\u2019m quite happy to hear that, Miss Belich.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c284051cdaed4344aa8a4a2e79a95e99\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I believe so, Mr Chair. Prior to your arrival in the Chair, a discussion was held about this particular issue in relation to how we would deal with new clause 6 issues, or perhaps amendments, which purported to be new clause 6 but actually, in the view of the staff at the House Office, related more to clause 5. We\u2019re informed that almost all of the Labour amendments were relevant to clause 5, bar one in the name of Ginny Andersen, and a number of the Green amendments were relevant to clause 6. So my understanding, from our discussions earlier, was that the amendment in the name of the Hon Duncan Webb is very much within clause 5, which we are currently debating. All of the other Labour amendments would be in clause 5, apart from one in the name of the Hon Ginny Andersen. Additionally, there are some very good amendments from Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March that would come under new clause 6, which, I understand, will be voted on separately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3391a0e8194434b89ea5b6e4b332b1d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, actually, that\u2019s been very useful, and the Clerk tells me that is actually\u2014I\u2019m now caught up, so thank you very much for that, and thank you to the committee for their patience. I\u2019m aware that with the change in Speaker there\u2019s always going to sometimes be an issue, but I believe I\u2019m caught up. So if we can start Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s time again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e74aae62314472983b7a0f4705456a1\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sure I won\u2019t need another five minutes to really conclude my point, and I thank my most excellent whip for that clarification as well. But the real point is this: that it\u2019s clear that there can be a use of a 90-day clause which is a breach of rights and would lead to remedies in other fora such as the Human Rights Review Tribunal. But the point is really that that is really disproportionate, costly, time-consuming, and would be extremely unwieldy, so a much better approach is for those kinds of issues to be worked out in, I guess, the mediation service, where the parties can, essentially, sort out their differences and in many cases go their separate ways.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo I guess I have two questions for the Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety. The first question is does she accept that there are some uses of 90-day trial periods such as those where there\u2019s a breach of human rights? My examples I gave, you\u2019ll recall, were firing someone because they\u2019re a Muslim or a union member. The second questions is if that is the case, does she agree that those kind of extraordinary tribunals are the appropriate place to resolve those issues, or would it be more appropriate to be undertaken in the very much more affordable and approachable mediation service?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u0022887c20aca30641d1a16c3b0577530b8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022887c20aca30641d1a16c3b0577530b8e\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chairman. God, it\u2019s depressing that the parties of the right in this House think that taking away the work rights of New Zealanders is some kind of trophy to be celebrated in the first couple of weeks of this new Parliament. Utterly depressing that they are so bereft of any kind of economic development vision for this country that they think making precarious workers more precarious is some kind of development strategy for the economy of this country\u2014God awful. My amendment, which I\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a862774f041486e9503f4fff50f9120\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Stick to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022049a41d46b354b3a9928e168adfdc708\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I very much was sticking to the bill. The amendment is a new clause 6 that we\u2019re discussing in clause 5, that would insert this following clause: \u201CRepeal section 67B(5)(a)\u201D. Now, let me take a moment to explain that. Section 67B of the Employment Relations Act exempts small and medium enterprises from the requirement in section 4(1A)(c) of the Employment Relations Act, which requires employers who are about to make a decision that, in the words of the legislation, \u201Cmay have an adverse effect on the employee\u2019s continuation of employment\u201D\u2014i.e., they\u2019re about to get the sack\u2014and in that case, it requires the employer to provide access to information about that decision. That\u2019s the first thing. The employee is about to get the boot; they\u2019ve got the right to request information about that decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003ESecondly, they have under the Employment Relations Act, which has been settled in law for quite a long time in this country, the opportunity to give comment to the employer before a decision is made\u2014all right? They have the ability to ask for information about their impending sacking, and then they have the right to provide comment to the employer before a decision is made. Now that is pretty much the definition of due process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a820b0a1bb1d483e84eda7e5c399bfb9\u0022\u003EKatie Nimon\u003C/span\u003E: Are you mansplaining?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b5802cdbef14f00931761851b97fb8e\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah. Well, apparently, some people in this House need it\u2014apparently they do. It\u2019s due process, but this bill takes away that fundamental right for\u2014God knows how many; hundreds of thousands of New Zealanders at work\u2014and I ask the members on the other side of the Chamber, who think this is hilarious, how would you feel in that situation? You think it\u2019s hilarious that this is happening. How do the members on that side feel about that? How would you feel if your daughter or son at work gets the boot within 90 days, and they have no right to request information about the decision; they have no right to provide any comment to the employer. Put yourself in their shoes\u2014put yourself in their shoes. Do you think it\u2019s OK to deny due process to hundreds of thousands of Kiwis at work? Basically, under this bill, they can be sacked on a whim and the employer does not have to provide any information about it\u2014they do not have to give any information. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThis Government is taking us backwards. It is taking us backwards, and I ask the Minister: would you consider removing that exemption and supporting this amendment? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EOf course, we oppose the bill in its entirety. It\u2019s a nasty, tawdry bit of legislation. We have no desire to support it, and, in fact, if you asked members on this side of the House, we\u2019d get rid of 90-day trial periods altogether\u2014altogether. Ask New Zealand First: they\u2019ll give you the answer. They\u2019ll give you the answer, and, believe me, you\u2019ll find out how that feels very shortly. This bill\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247fe3f4d408f43689fa7d67969210515\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Short, sharp, preferably witty, and not disruptive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a59c3432ea9e4e4bbbaf3b902b9f933d\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Why would you\u2014meaning members on the other side of the Chamber\u2014why would you give employers\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bba016ba8a5480c8febd9bf71db3161\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Twyford, just to the judicious use of the word \u201Cyou\u201D, can you just actually use another word? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d4742cea4964b9e8e75a63e7a8f1938\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: It was in the same breath as\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236a1b71704db41d2a7c07bd56e056b9f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t bring the Chair into it. So just\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265e61968fd1f4736a1bdcb9ca228daf7\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Yep. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f9ffde35ede44f18f9f66cfc8b13a63\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve been in the House long enough to know that rule.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022180a61655793462fb7255eca7b83af99\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Why would members on the other side of the House choose to give employers\u2014and, of course, the bad ones\u2014a free pass to actually sack people on a whim and not have to provide any information to the worker who is affected? Why would that be done? What\u2019s the reason for it? They wouldn\u2019t actually subject themselves to that denial of due process, and if they thought about it for a nanosecond, they would realise that people in their lives who might come up against an unscrupulous employer\u2014they wouldn\u2019t want them to be subject to this kind of Draconian process. It is a step backwards for employment law in this country and it\u2019s a step backwards for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd05d5e8efff45018797ae172b6cb04e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd05d5e8efff45018797ae172b6cb04e\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I very much appreciate the opportunity to take a call, and I want to speak to the first of two amendments that I have on the Table that are relating to new clause 6, although noting that my amendments are considered more of an addition to the existing clause 5. So I am looking forward to being able to take a couple of contributions, the first one just to speak about the amendment that I have, which is \u201CAfter section 67B(2) insert \u2018(3) employees who are dismissed under a trial provision are entitled to a termination payment of three months of ordinary pay by their employer, to be paid out over the three months following termination\u2019.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ENow, a clause such as this would achieve a number of objectives. First, I wish to note that, as other colleagues have mentioned, for many people who are employed under these provisions, they are often precarious workers. We\u2019ve heard examples tonight about my own family member and about the devastating example used by my colleague Jan Tinetti, around young people being employed under a 90-day trial and then losing their job within that 90-day period. Those of us in the committee will be aware that a person in that situation would likely then have to turn to Work and Income and could be subjected to a 12-week stand-down period. It could be very difficult for that person to access funds during that time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThis is very much around fairness and ensuring that vulnerable workers aren\u2019t then left without any access to income, after having been dismissed under a 90-day trial. I say to members opposite that, actually, all members of this House have a clause of this nature in our agreements as members of this Parliament. Any of us who are turfed out after an election are able to access a three-month payment, so I say to members opposite: if it\u2019s good enough for us, surely it\u2019s good enough for some of New Zealand\u2019s lowest-paid workers? We don\u2019t have redundancy provisions in this country. We have a stand-down period for accessing Work and Income support. So, for vulnerable workers who perhaps have given up being on a benefit to go and try a new job\u2014which is something we would all encourage\u2014to end up potentially without having income for a period of time, as a result of what this side of the House believe is bad law, is around fairness but also ensuring that there is that financial support for people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EAlso, a clause such as this would also have a precautionary effect, I believe, on employers, to just take that extra piece of care\u2014to consider whether a 90-day trial is the best course of action in the first place; furthermore, whether a dismissal under a 90-day trial is a fair course of action. As we all know\u2014well, some of us in this House know\u2014there are existing trial provisions in the law. From my experience, those existing trial provisions do work. They allow a proper process to be followed. So a clause of this nature would, basically, say, \u201CLook, if that employer was going to take a less rigorous approach to the dismissal of someone who may not be working out, well, then there would actually be a financial consequence to them.\u201D So, in my view, a clause such as this would really encourage employers to think a bit more carefully about whether they would use a 90-day fire-at-will, no-process clause within an employment agreement, versus a trial period that does require there to be a process, that does require an opportunity for the employee to improve, and that does require feedback and further training to be given so that that person on a trial period would be able to engage in a more rigorous and fair process as the employer is considering their suitability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ESo a clause such as this\u2014such as my new clause 6, which would insert after section 67B(2) a provision for three months of ordinary pay to be paid out\u2014in my view, would achieve two outcomes. One would be to ensure that that vulnerable employee, if they were dismissed, wouldn\u2019t end up being financially disadvantaged, especially if they were having to wait to receive support from Work and Income, and it would also, I believe, give employers just some time to consider what would be the better option for them, to ensure they\u2019re running a fair process within their business. I look forward to a further contribution on my other amendment. Thank you, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u002248016301528f42f0a04e63f66d537142\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248016301528f42f0a04e63f66d537142\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I appreciate the Minister\u2019s previous comment that she feels satisfied with having spoken to the idea of, basically, that there\u2019s no need to give reasons. But she didn\u2019t really address my other two amendments, so I just wanted to remind her that there are these other two amendments: one on the Employment Relations Authority, and the other one around making sure that employers who are too hasty with dismissal under trial periods have considered all options before ending someone\u2019s employment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThe other thing before I was interrupted in my call that I wanted to check was around the child impact assessment, and whether that had been done. As I have mentioned in previous clauses, I kind of started with saying that I would have had the opportunity to have had this raised at the select committee stage, and also with that, there is the impact that adding it to larger businesses or otherwise may have on child poverty reduction targets, and I ask whether she had considered whether this has an impact on child poverty altogether. I think that the clause that we\u2019re in best reflects that because of the language around where they\u2019re expended to. And the reason why I\u2019m asking about the relationship to child poverty reduction targets and child impact assessment is, as has been canvassed, because of the benefit levels but also the period in which then someone may not have an income if they transition to that benefit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThere are those kinds of just real household, material issues that I think should be addressed in this debate, and, no doubt, if we\u2019d had a select committee stage, those communities and people who advocate for them would have had the opportunity to raise the impact that they believe this bill would have had. So I\u2019m looking forward to the Minister addressing my other two amendments and speaking to what she considers to be the impact on working families with children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca4d96d875ff4499b976ee8167f3fa9a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca4d96d875ff4499b976ee8167f3fa9a\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, for the opportunity to contribute to this debate. I wish to speak to my amendment to clause 5, which would be to insert after the amendment to section 67B(1) a new subclause (2), which says that \u201CEmployees who have a legitimate trial provision in their employment agreement are exempt from legal proceedings against them from their employer for wage recovery.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI think this is a useful amendment for the committee to consider. There\u2019s an issue here. Essentially, if employers were to use their new powers under the amended Act, as the Minister is proposing to dismiss workers within the 90-day period, then there would also be this further power for employers which creates a pretty terrible situation for workers\u2014especially vulnerable workers\u2014where they then might enter into proceedings to recover overpaid wages. That is something that employees may face when they\u2019re faced with dismissals. It is a way for employers to recover costs in situations where there has been some sort of mistake or an overpayment. But it\u2019s also just a really bad situation for a young employee to find themselves in, where if you\u2019re paying your bills based on what you\u2019re getting in your income, you\u2019re probably not checking exactly on your payslips and you\u2019re probably living on exactly what your payslip is, and then to be faced with proceedings from your former employer who is trying to recover some of those wages, it just seems to be an extra level of unfair in this situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo let me take the committee through those wage recovery provisions. They\u2019re found in the Wages Protection Act of 1983. Usually, it would require an employer to seek the written consent of the employee whom they are trying to recover wages from, but in certain circumstances the employer can either begin proceedings under the Employment Relations Act or obtain a court order to look for a remedy and to recover wages. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESometimes in situations where there is a power imbalance between employers and employees, those proceedings are also entered into by employers to make a point. The point being made there is that the employer has the power to pursue the employee\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abf64552ba0847848b8b49f40a50f75a\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: And the point you\u2019re making? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efb1006693674a4e812a17688c79e9b1\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: Was that a point of order? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebf4c250c75a4c40a70f6479cbceb4ef\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: And the point you\u2019re making? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242683c6afb554b0a8fee759f2b0bbdb1\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: Did I hear a point of order, Mr Chair? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213e7ba43fac04055ab266a9b3144cc78\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I didn\u2019t hear a point of order. Carry on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227777c125f95e4cb0b0cdc5ca692721f2\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: OK, thank you. The purpose of these wage recovery provisions that we need to put into this bill would not allow employers any avenue for pursuing employees who are dismissed under the 90-day provisions that the Minister is seeking to put in, because that adds, essentially, this extra level of unfairness whereby an employer, who has these extra powers\u2014because it\u2019s not the right fit, as the Minister has told us, because of the need for more flexibility within the employment market\u2014could then sort of add the costs back on to the employee who has been let go. This is a useful amendment for the committee to consider, and I hope that we can consider putting it in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThere are also two other amendments in my name that I hope the Minister will consider. They are about allowing the House to be clear about the number of employees to whom this new provision would apply. Thanks, Mr Chair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022ebe1e92169cb4428a545b5722cbb4597\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ebe1e92169cb4428a545b5722cbb4597\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks very much, Mr Chair. Now, I have two drafted amendments for a new clause 6. I\u2019ve got advice to understand that the first of mine will be debated under clause 5, and the second one subsequent to voting on that clause. So the new clause 6 proposes that section 103 be amended, which refers to section 103 of the Employment Relations Act. So in section 103, following section 103(1)(k), my proposed amendment is that a new section would be inserted after paragraph (k), which would be paragraph (l), \u201Cthat employee has been dismissed unfairly under a trial period\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ENow, that section of the Employment Relations Act, which this bill, the Employment Relations (Trial Periods) Amendment Bill, amends, basically lays out the grounds for a personal grievance for all of those different reasons why an employee may take a personal grievance against their employer. What the extension of the 90-day trial period to all businesses\u2014what this amended bill essentially does is remove all grounds for a personal grievance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222db2601a8b15493bad37026753437a25\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, Ms Andersen, can I just interrupt. I think this particular additional clause of yours is actually part of clause 6, because that will actually trigger a new clause 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a160464853c46f3aa3cb75b6d5ff242\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: So we did seek advice. The whip sought advice from the previous Clerk and we showed both amendments and we wrote that that was actually the advice we received, that this should be debated under clause 5. I\u2019m happy to take it at a different point, but the advice we did receive\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea281baffcc24334946e721b7704793d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, look, we\u2019ll continue on now and then we will actually\u2014you\u2019ve got another couple of minutes to go, but it will actually also be relevant to clause 6, because it will actually trigger a new clause 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f503e1dbe4a46ec8fc4aa5d5e693ab4\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: OK, thank you. So the point I would like to have an answer from the Minister on is: would she be open to inserting an additional clause under section 103 of the Employment Relations Act that would add in that an employee has been dismissed unfairly under the trial period? Essentially, that enables those rights to continue if there are grounds that the employee may feel that there\u2019s been either discrimination, unfair conditions\u2014there might be a whole range of reasons why they\u2019d believe that they have been unjustifiably dismissed\u2014by adding in the additional provision into the legislation that would enable a greater strengthening of workers\u2019 rights, and it would stop the erosion of workers\u2019 rights, which this bill so dramatically does for New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022da4b0507ff1a4be99330b857a3118f4f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da4b0507ff1a4be99330b857a3118f4f\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. There are a couple of things I wanted to mention in my first contribution to this clause 5. This is really the operative clause, in a way, of the entire bill, as the main change that means that the effect of this bill can be carried is the change in section 67B(1) to replace a \u201Csmall and medium sized employer\u201D with \u201Cemployer\u201D in general, and also the change in section 67B(5)(a) and (b) in the Employment Relations Act. Without those changes, there would not be a bill to really discuss in this debate. So thank you, Mr Chair, for having a view to take some comments on that section, which go to the purpose and nature of this piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI did also want to touch on, after I make my comments in relation to those sections, an amendment, brought by my colleague Jan Tinetti, that not only looks to what occurs once a trial period is inactive within an employment agreement but adds in an additional clause\u2014it says clause 6 but, as we\u2019ve discussed, it would be under clause 5\u2014to allow an employee to be entitled to benefit payments if, in fact, they qualify for that after a trial period is enacted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EMy first comments really are in terms of the\u2014as I\u2019ve said, this is really quite an important operative section, this clause 5 of the bill. I just feel I would like the Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety to respond to exactly what evidence she believes and, apart from the conversations that she\u2019s had with people, is there any evidence to suggest that this is something that will make a difference to New Zealand as a whole? You see, that\u2019s her responsibility as workplace relations Minister. All of the evidence seems to suggest that it doesn\u2019t make a difference to include larger businesses within trial provisions. It seems to suggest that there isn\u2019t any impact at all on those larger businesses, apart from the obviously terrible and devastating impact that it can have on individuals when they are covered by a trial period and they have no recourse to challenge a dismissal. I know that that\u2019s a big question, but I really feel this is an operative part of the Act, and I don\u2019t really feel that, from the Minister, we\u2019ve got a significant or substantive response on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI have heard that there was an election and they have a mandate for this. My comment has been that an electoral mandate does not justify bad lawmaking. The issues that we have with this section really are: why, and what\u2019s the evidence? I know that in the coalition agreement it states that this is to be a Government that bases their decisions on evidence. What evidence is there? Further to that point, why has she decided to implement this when it appears not to make a bit of difference in terms of the studies that have looked on the wider impacts? I mean, I do appreciate, and I don\u2019t at all discount, the fact that it may be that the Minister has had individual conversations with individual business owners and they\u2019ve suggested this. But, of course, we need to look at the overall impact of how a policy like this will affect New Zealand, and whether it does indeed lead to people being hired more regularly. The evidence seems to suggest that, no, it doesn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI did want to touch on the amendment before my time in relation to this particular call is over. It is a big problem for people if they are unable to access payments for benefit if they\u2019ve been dismissed in a timely manner. Of course, in this situation, it could be without any fault of their own. It could be for any reason at all. I mentioned a few of those: hair colour, weight\u2014whatever. They just take a dislike to you. They don\u2019t like something to do with your name. It could be for any reason. So what protections are there in place for people, now that we\u2019re expanding trial provisions to the majority of the population? An additional 78 percent of all employees will be covered by this. So what protections are there for those people who are at the sharp end of this amendment? Are they, in fact, entitled to benefit payments? I\u2019d appreciate the Minister\u2019s clarification on that. Are they entitled straight away? Is this something that will be available to them? Is there any other additional support available to people subjected to this provision?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022 data-id=\u0022d55226d5953b42b7b29bf7a01c81a786\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d55226d5953b42b7b29bf7a01c81a786\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I thought I would get a few of these queries and concerns under way within my allocated time. Speaking firstly to Rachel Boyack\u2019s two amendments, the first of which was about allowing employees to be entitled to termination payments of three months\u2014well, this amendment would add a huge, significant cost to businesses and does not align with the intent of the bill, which is to reduce cost and risk and restore employer confidence. The second one was about allowing for any dismissal under a trial provision in an employment agreement to have the written agreement of both the employer and the employee. I just note that dismissal processes aren\u2019t undertaken with consent of both parties. If we took that to its natural conclusion, it just means no one would ever be able to leave an employment agreement\u2014that\u2019s quite a deviation from employment law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003ESpeaking to the Hon Duncan Webb\u2019s amendment where he wanted to talk about the mediation services that would be available for resolution, the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE) already has a dispute resolution service available to employers and employees, and we\u2019re not proposing to change the Act\u2019s existing provisions for mediation, which is voluntary between both parties under the current law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003ESpeaking to the Hon Phil Twyford\u2019s amendment, the substance of that amendment I have discussed at length in clause 4, which I\u2019d already discussed about Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u2019s. Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March had another amendment which was about people bringing personal grievance proceedings if they have the leave of the Employment Relations Authority. The issue that we take with this one is the whole point of this trial period is to increase employer confidence to hire a new employee, and that\u2019s why\u2014removing risk. This adds more risk into a law, and we don\u2019t believe that it will actually help streamline the labour market but make it worse off. So we oppose that provision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EArena Williams had an amendment which talked a little bit about \u201Cexempt from legal proceedings against them from employer for wage recovery\u201D\u2014so trying to make it about wage recovery. But I just have to note that that\u2019s not part of the Employment Relations Act; that\u2019s part of the Wage Protection Act, so that\u2019s outside the scope of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March also had quite a few more Amendment Papers, which we\u2019ll get through, requiring MBIE to monitor and report on the use of trial provisions, and then also another one requiring a report from the Minister three years following the commencement of this operation. I don\u2019t support either of these amendments. As I said, I think, back in the title clause, I will be looking to further work in the labour market space but I don\u2019t believe these sorts of provisions need to be in this law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EThen also speaking to Camilla Belich\u2019s last suggestion there about welfare benefit payments, I just note that this is the Employment Relations Act. We\u2019re not really talking about benefit payments, which is not under my purview in my portfolio\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c530cf08bb704ba3971b070fab9f78f7\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: Just asking if it had an impact on that in terms of the rules around benefits and when people lose jobs. It\u2019s a relevant question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b12a760190247789960c8fb03cc1a99\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN\u003C/span\u003E: And then we also wanted to talk a little bit about this issue here\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fc9a6ee0b7845a89702f618b3ad7dae\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s something she should go and find out, as Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228725970ae90e4f0bb6c8c1379b50c05e\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014thank you very much for your contribution\u2014about whether or not a business can afford the cost of unnecessary regulation. It doesn\u2019t mean that they should afford to do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022dcb3c90ba55645f3a0667695be462a45\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dcb3c90ba55645f3a0667695be462a45\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Again, can I thank the Minister for providing the regulatory impact statement. It seems to be something of a rarity before the House under this Government these days. I note from that that when we\u2019re looking at paragraph 32 in it, it does provide the overarching sort of focus, or objective, really, of this regulatory system when it comes to employment relations. It says in there that it is \u201Cto enable productive, mutually beneficial employment relationships\u201D and that, \u201CAs such, the system assumes an ongoing relationship between the employer and the employee.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EAgain, that sort of lends itself that the process around this in this clause is obviously pretty important. I note that my colleague Camilla Belich referred to the global context, and the regulatory impact statement also does touch on some of the international context in the sense of arrangements. My question to the Minister, firstly, is around her comfort in that this proposal sits or aligns adequately with other international jurisdictions and contexts when the regulatory impact statement itself points to, for example, the fact that in the United Kingdom there\u2019s generally an agreement between the employer and the employee. When we look at Germany, there is a discretion about a probationary period. In the Netherlands the probationary period must be agreed in writing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThat brings me to two amendments in my name. The first one is, I guess, a pre-emptive one. It seeks to amend section 67B, which falls under clause 5, and seeks to insert a new provision, which is: \u201CAny employer seeking to utilise a trial period must first\u201D\u2014so there is the timeliness\u2014\u201Cmeet with the employee and consult on the decision to implement the trial period.\u201D This includes seeking the employee\u2019s feedback on other options that do not include utilising the trial period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI\u2019m interested in the Minister\u2019s thoughts around whether that is something that she would accept, because it might be that in an employment situation those other options could be things like starting out with some other level of support. It could be around putting in place some guidance for the new employee, and while many think that that is automatically something that would kick in as part of a new employment relationship, it may be that if there is agreement between the two parties, actually, there is no need to utilise the trial period. It also, I think, goes back to what has been covered in this Chamber tonight around the tenet of good faith and that being a key provision. So I\u2019d be interested in the Minister\u2019s thoughts around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe other amendment is an additional amendment to section 67B, and that is inserting an additional provision which is \u201Cemployees have the right, at no cost\u201D\u2014which is important because it is about it being accessible\u2014\u201Cto seek a determination from the employment authority that a trial period used to end their employment is valid and has been used correctly and appropriately.\u201D My question for the Minister is: what comfort in this clause, as currently drafted, is there to ensure that there is an adequate process that allows for the employee to understand what is happening? We\u2019ve talked about the fact that there are many individuals who are in employment situations who would not be familiar with legalities, familiar with contractual law, familiar with contractual obligations, and so this amendment is really focused on ensuring that if an employer does seek to action that part of the agreement, there is an accessible avenue available to any employee to effectively seek the determination from the appropriate authority or agency, which in this case would be the employment authority that exists, to ensure there is a sense of validity to it but also that it has been used correctly and appropriately. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThese two amendments are about process, both pre-emptively, before engaging a trial period, and also in circumstances where a trial period may actually be utilised so that there is an accessible avenue available to the employee, as part of the employment relationship, to seek some validation that the process, whatever may have been followed, that has been taken by the employer has been done so correctly and appropriately. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac424d2bd9714f83b616239723e929bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac424d2bd9714f83b616239723e929bf\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to propose a clause that I put in in handwriting and it will be on the Table. It\u2019s a clause that I think goes to the debate we\u2019ve heard tonight, in particular the comments of the Minister, so I am listening. What I understand the Minister is suggesting is that this is good for New Zealand because it\u2019s good for employees who need to be given a chance, and those employees are the ones who are the most precarious, the ones who are seen as risky by employers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ENow, my concern is about the chilling effect that this kind of trial period has on a whole lot of employees who don\u2019t really fit into that category at all. They tend to be workers who are already in employment, and what this does is it puts them into a position where they can\u2019t move across into another employer without significant risk. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ENow, the statistics\u2014and, yes, it is based on the research that I have seen from America with regards to a concept called portability of employment\u2014are that it is an issue particularly for women, and women actually seem to significantly be more conservative and less risk-averse when it comes to moving from one job to the other, sometimes because they\u2019re not the primary income earner and their job needs to fit in with their family, etc. So they are less risk-averse and they don\u2019t move easily, and if, in fact, there\u2019s an impediment to the moving, which is the risk that they may suddenly lose that job, then they\u2019re not likely to leave. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI am concerned that they aren\u2019t taking the advances that they can get in a new job because of things like trial periods, so I wanted to know whether you\u2019d looked at that issue of the chilling effect, and whether you\u2019d consider my amendment, which targets your proposed change to the law, but it actually does it so that it cuts out and carves out this provision in so far as it affects people who are already in gainful employment, and I\u2019ve spelt out the reasons for that. One is the fact that it\u2019s contrary to the stated object that you\u2019ve got\u2014that it would actually really work best, in your view, on those employees who needed a chance to get into the workforce. Another is that there is a huge financial loss in that situation to an employee, which is an injustice itself, and so there is that. The third, of course\u2014in fact, I\u2019ve spoken about this in speaking to an earlier clause\u2014is I\u2019m very concerned about the cost this visits on taxpayers, because when people lose their jobs, they don\u2019t fall in to a void. The taxpayer has to pay them a benefit. So it\u2019s not even good for the taxpayer to do this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ESo, really, I am concerned, and I\u2019d like to hear why is this OK. Why is it OK that the taxpayer ends up picking up the tab every time a big business\u2014we\u2019re not talking little businesses\u2014decides that it wants to jettison an employee in 90 days without any reason given? Why is that OK? Why are we just picking up the tab for what employers do in that situation, given that, I understand, the new Government is committed to people being responsible for their own situation? I would have expected a Government that was made up of the ACT Party to be one that was supposed to be sitting on \u201CEmployers pay their own way here\u201D, not \u201CThe taxpayer ends up paying for all those employees.\u201D So I\u2019d really like to know the answer to that question, because there\u2019s very good research, and I\u2019d like to know what the Minister\u2019s done about finding out about that research into the chilling effect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ENow, my second amendment on the Table is one that\u2019s about the pattern of behaviour. I am concerned about employers overusing this clause. So, again, you\u2019ve talked about, Minister, these employees being just the precarious\u2014the ones that you wouldn\u2019t give a go otherwise. Well, one of the problems is the habitual use of the clause: the four people in one month all being terminated, each one being substituted with the next one who\u2019s willing to hope and then be dismissed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ESo my suggestion in my second amendment is that you make a provision here that only one employee out of every 50 in a 12-month period is able to be terminated under this clause. I\u2019d like to know why not, because what has the Minister done in terms of looking at the pattern of abuse?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u00224f52e9f18eda47dfb06f4dcfd5c8b3bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f52e9f18eda47dfb06f4dcfd5c8b3bc\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and I want to thank the advice that I received from the Clerk, who clarified that, actually, the amendment that I have tabled\u2014I should actually discuss it in this part of the debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EFollowing on a couple of weeks ago in my reply to the Speech from the Throne, one of the queries I had was around the vision that this new Government has for our country, and my concern has been, over the last couple of weeks, that there has been a lot of urgency, there\u2019s been the inability to be able to actually scrutinise particular bills, except through here in the House. I thank Mr Chair for allowing us to be able to speak to the different amendments because, as you can see, there are a lot of amendments that a number of members on this side of the House do want to be able to speak to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EOne of the issues that I did have in relation to this bill, other than the fact that it\u2019s reinstating those trials, is the imbalance of that policy decision. The imbalance of it is that it weighs heavily on the employer\u2019s side, so one of the solutions which I have tabled is to be able to provide a safety net for the employees who have been subject to this trial, because, ultimately, again, if you look to the regulatory impact statement, it provides\u2014further to what Tangi Utikere spoke of earlier today\u2014the purpose of the employment relations regime, the framework in which this particular bill sits within. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ETherefore, my new amendment, which I have tabled, is that following the new clause 6, section 67B be amended: \u201C(Effect of trial provision under section 67A). After section 67B(5), insert subsection (6): \u2018Any employer that wishes to use trial periods into their employment agreements must register with the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment\u2019.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ESome people may say that, well, that\u2019s just providing an additional compliance cost. However, one of the very new features that had actually come through\u2014and I think it was around 2015-16\u2014was the New Zealand Business Number (NZBN). Now, that was a policy that the previous National Government had put through. Obviously, businesses are applying to get New Zealand Business Numbers through the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE). Again, this would be the type of advice that you\u2019d want to seek from officials around: could this work\u2014sort of leveraging off the NZBN\u2014so that you\u2019d ask employers who want to use those 90-day trial periods that, as part of that process, they just basically tag on to their New Zealand Business Number that they\u2019re using the trial periods. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThen I look to the second part of my amendment around subsection (7), which is \u201CBusinesses registered with MBIE under this clause must pay 1.39 percent of the salary of the FTE employed at their business into a fund overseen by MBIE and ACC.\u201D Again, that is a new regime; there would need to be some real thought around the implementation. Obviously, like when you have tax, the incidence of tax and where that falls, the incidence of this particular levy might fall on the employee; however, it is for the employee\u2019s benefit. Again, similar to the ACC system, where a collection of a levy is used for the greater benefit of ACC provision, this now leads to subsection (8), which is what I\u2019ve tabled, and this will create a fund that will be used to pay workers dismissed under trial periods 80 percent of their wages for up to seven months. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThis may sound controversial; however, I believe that the reinstatement of the trials is imbalanced; it totally balances and weighs in favour of the employer. Therefore, this particular tabled amendment is about providing additional balance for the employee in the respect that, because they are unable to put forward a personal grievance because they\u2019ve been dismissed, they aren\u2019t able to actually ask as to why. They could ask why, however. There\u2019s been a number of amendments where members have tabled, asking them to be able to provide a reason. This provides an additional safety net. Again, the Minister will probably have to work through the incidences as to who this falls on, but, again, if businesses have to comply in other aspects of the regime, particularly when they\u2019re touching base with MBIE in relation to the NZBN, my suggestion is that this particular tabled amendment is just another way to be able to rebalance it, to allow employees to have a safety net in relation to the reinstatement of these 90-day trials. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EMy question, really, to the Minister is if she has any particular views. If she doesn\u2019t agree with my Amendment Paper, then what is her proposal in order to rebalance the 90-day reinstatement to help our employees?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u00224fbc927d0164419f82297fe3369122d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224fbc927d0164419f82297fe3369122d8\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. It\u2019s been canvassed in previous debates as to disabled people, and with regard to clause 5, with the expansion of 90-day trials to those bigger businesses, I wanted to check whether the Minister had sought any views from Whaikaha, or whether that was explored, around the impact of the expansion of 90-day trials on disabled workers, particularly because of the minimum wage exemptions and other kinds of specific interactions that disabled people experience in the workplace. I ask whether she had sought any second opinions there or, in fact, from any other ministry that are population-specific.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EParticularly with regard to disabled workers, I did want to see if the Minister had any reflections around the fact that there are specific discriminations that are already felt in the workplace, both in law but also in practice and in culture. I think, if there were no opinions sought from Whaikaha, just what are her views on how this may impact disabled people more generally? I know that she\u2019s talked about the flexibility element, but with it being extended to those larger businesses, not all of them have the management practices to support new disabled workers into the workforce, and so I\u2019m interested to see how she thinks those 90-day trials may impact disabled people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u00221b3bd72ed3154d5799e3aeb415e6b484\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b3bd72ed3154d5799e3aeb415e6b484\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. I\u2019d like to speak to my proposed amendment for a new clause 6, and this is the second one. So this is the implementation of this bill contingent on a review in three years\u2019 time. The proposed amendment is made subject to a review being undertaken in three years in order to investigate how trial periods and employment agreements have improved the outcomes for workers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276cd20ac6feb4b8aa02a31d08ec8dccb\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Chairperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1f5cd6e925548a38aefc64251b5a3ac\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: If this is a point of order regarding the relevance of this, that is a job for the Chair. I\u2019m well aware of what\u2019s going on. If that\u2019s your point of order, there\u2019s no need. However, point of order, Tim van de Molen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226de4ceea986f4161a8539b28eae15376\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: OK\u2014all right. My point of order is to seek consistency. What we heard from Ms Belich earlier was a clear agreement that had been reached that Ms Andersen\u2019s amendments were not part of clause 5; they were part of clause 6. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221566c9d59352495fb326d2f1193f26b2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s correct. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022834d69509fc54485b32d8e8ca29b9e78\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: Now, I\u2019m interested in whether your view now is that that\u2019s incorrect. If they are to be in this part, then presumably they will not be available for debate in the next\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224589bbeeff274232a15f0365ca33e013\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u0027Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The member is actually speaking to another part from the part that actually became part of clause 6, but thank you for your assistance. Carry on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225053748668a6461a84a3b2ac07feaba3\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much, Mr Chair. This amendment is made subject to a review being undertaken in a period of three years in order to investigate how trial periods and employment agreements have improved the outcomes for workers in employment. The report of this review will be important information to understand the impact of what this legislation has done to those New Zealanders it directly impacts. My amendment also stipulates that this must be provided no later than six months following the three-year anniversary of Royal assent of the repeal bill, and it also states that the Minister must, within 60 working days of the day the review is provided to the Minister, present it to the House of Representatives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe purpose of this amendment really speaks to that part identified in the regulatory impact statement that says that there is simply very little evidence that New Zealand has right now that indicates what the impacts are of this, not only to businesses but also to working New Zealanders. The regulatory impact statement lists three different sources of information that have been made available to try to understand the impact of what the legislation will do, and it\u2019s quite clear that that is scant and that there is insufficient evidence to fully understand what this will do to the rights of working New Zealanders over time. So I think it\u2019s only right and fair, if we want to learn from our mistakes, and if we want to learn what the outcomes are and how this directly impacts upon people in New Zealand, that we build into this hastily made legislation a built-in clause that we can take a look at it after a significant period of time and understand how it has made an impact upon that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ETaken alongside of some of the other recommendations which are to require the recording of information, this is a really important step to make sure that in 10 or 20 years\u2019 time, when we are going through processes such as this again, as we go in political cycles\u2014to understand, when we go to do this again, what the impacts of the law we make today are and how that impacts upon workers\u2019 rights and the employment relationship, because that goes right to the heart of the Employment Relations Act, which is that fundamental good-trust relationship between an employee and employer. My real fear with this legislation is that it fundamentally undermines the good faith that underpins that critical relationship between an employee and an employer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo I think that we have a fundamental responsibility in New Zealand, as good lawmakers, to understand that if we are taking this step and if we are undermining that fundamental right within the Employment Relations Act, then surely we should take it upon ourselves to check back in in a period of three years and understand exactly what is the damage that has been done in terms of workers\u2019 rights and in terms of the rate of unemployment in New Zealand, and in terms of the ability of people who are in precarious work situations to still pay for their rent and meet their bills each week. What are those implications when we have introduced every business in New Zealand having the ability to fire workers at will within a 90-day period? If we\u2019re going to make sweeping changes that fundamentally undermine the balance that exists in the Employment Relations Act, which is already tilted in favour of the employer\u2014if we\u2019re going to be doing that, then we have a right and a responsibility to all those New Zealanders whose lives will be impacted to take a look at what has been done after three years and learn from the mistakes that we\u2019ve made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022 data-id=\u0022b37b0d6be5254752963b37323be346e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b37b0d6be5254752963b37323be346e7\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u00224ea4b6468a4b46aba7eae60e5cd62d0d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ea4b6468a4b46aba7eae60e5cd62d0d\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I appreciate the opportunity to take a call on my other amendment. I note that the Minister made some comments in response to this amendment, but I do note that I hadn\u2019t actually had the opportunity to put my case to the committee and to the Minister for this particular amendment, so I\u2019m going to take that opportunity now. This specific amendment would insert, after section 67B(2): \u201C(3) For employers who employ 20 or more employees, any dismissal under a trial provision in an employment agreement must have the written agreement of both the employer and the employee, and the employee\u2019s representative where they have one.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ENow, I want to make some particular points about what this clause would address, because throughout this debate there have been references made by my colleagues about two matters which I think are important at the heart of this debate, and are relevant back to this clause that I would like to introduce. That is around the object of good faith but, furthermore, the objects of this Act about the power imbalance in the relationship. I want just to mention this because I heard an interjection from a member opposite earlier tonight, and I\u2019m not sure which member, so my apologies to the member. I heard an interjection stating that it was a perceived power imbalance, but, actually, that\u2019s not what the Employment Relations Act states. The Employment Relations Act is very clear that there is an inherent inequality of power in the employment relationship. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThe reason I note this is that it\u2019s relevant back to my clause, because what the bill that the Minister has introduced tonight does is that it takes away and undermines the object of the Act. So what my clause would do would actually add back in a mechanism to address that power imbalance that has been taken away through the bill that\u2019s been introduced tonight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThe reason I bring up the fact that this is what\u2019s stated in the Employment Relations Act is that this particular clause and object was included in the original version of the Act when it was introduced by the fifth Labour Government, when Margaret Wilson was the Minister of Labour, and this particular clause survived the previous National Government that came in after that, prior to the sixth Labour Government. It is not a clause that has ever been removed from the Act. Every Government of every colour since the introduction of the Employment Relations Act 2000 has accepted that there is an inherent inequality of power in the employment relationship; not, as a member opposite interjected, a perceived inequality of power. The Act is very clear, and as parliamentarians, as lawmakers, it\u2019s important to us that any amendments we make to that Act don\u2019t actually undermine the objects of the Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ESo my point to the committee tonight and to the Minister\u2014and so my question, again, for the Minister\u2014is that I\u2019d like her to reconsider this. There is a power imbalance being reintroduced through introducing 90-day trials to employees who work for employers where they have 20 or more employees. It is the view of this side of the House that upholding and maintaining good faith and upholding and maintaining mechanisms that address that power imbalance are important for all of us as parliamentarians to uphold. Otherwise, I would suggest that, actually, the other side of the House should change the objects of the Act. If that is how they really feel, show New Zealanders what they really feel: show New Zealanders that, actually, they believe that employers should be allowed to have significantly more power in an employment relationship. If that is how they feel, they should say it\u2014change the Act. Don\u2019t just tinker with it; come on out there and tell us what you really think.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ESo the reason why I\u2019ve introduced this amendment is because I believe that having a written agreement between the employer and the employee, and the employee\u2019s representative where they have one, would help to ensure that there was some understanding, a process to acknowledge why that person was dismissed, and reasons given for that person to have been dismissed, so that there was actually a proper acknowledgment and a proper agreement so that that person\u2014as many of us have noted tonight\u2014will not be left sitting in limbo, wondering, \u201CWell, why was I dismissed?\u201D This clause would assist the parties to that employment relationship to have a proper understanding and for there to be an agreement, so it would actually address that power imbalance and ensure there was a fairer process involved if a dismissal were to occur under this new bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022 data-id=\u00229f943ea2e64741059f6d4defde6639c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229f943ea2e64741059f6d4defde6639c5\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member Rachel Boyack for that very fulsome contribution, but I also remind her\u2014as she also noted at the start\u2014that I have also already responded to that particular clause. I always just want to take the chance to talk about Ginny Andersen\u2019s amendment, which talked about requiring a review of the impact of the 90-day trial periods. I remind the member that I have already spoken on that, on a previous amendment doing the exact same thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022 data-id=\u0022905a56a3ebc1467b99d202431185b792\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022905a56a3ebc1467b99d202431185b792\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226075fabb3a5b4015a410113365a69948\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00224c01b1ff3d194cb19596b4a517f3168c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c01b1ff3d194cb19596b4a517f3168c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the amendments to clause 5 set out on Amendment Paper 9 in the name of Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a63cc2c1ccb34da4af247af2c1bec1b6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002221f95e4ddf67464ab2d12ef9b44515e8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221f95e4ddf67464ab2d12ef9b44515e8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the amendment to clause 5 set out on Amendment Paper 10 in the name of Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002237642401951f47338879c3c81df894a1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022b6523bedcbe34891809b55179ca25dfe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b6523bedcbe34891809b55179ca25dfe\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the amendments to clause 5 set out on Amendment Paper 11 in the name of Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222646be5c33a84f76ac4c04b72af9fcc3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00221cc0254a7ae74d03aa8932c7edfe3c41\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221cc0254a7ae74d03aa8932c7edfe3c41\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendments to clause 5 to replace \u201Cemployer\u201D with \u201Cemployers who employ fewer than 20 employees\u201D are out of order as being contrary to the objects and principles of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EThe Hon Kieran McAnulty\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 5 inserting new section 67B(2) to allow an employee to revoke a trial provision at any time is out of order as being contrary to the objects and principles of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EThe question is that Helen White\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 5 inserting new section 67B(3A) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e211feec952541869bf339e816d36898\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00225a77810fdccb456394aec3b0b08f1e7e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a77810fdccb456394aec3b0b08f1e7e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 5, inserting new section 67B(2) requiring employers to use a trial provision only if they can prove financial or reputational harm to the employer, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c00e9f060b974e868a24c87fc9217a53\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002284b2d1d54d134630b22357b57f7fae4d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284b2d1d54d134630b22357b57f7fae4d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Tangi Utikere\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 5, inserting new section 67B(5) to require any employer wanting to utilise a trial period to consult with the employee, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002254377bcf375f49b290cca2a25eb12049\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022d72c11d8e3254df9ba5b60b3b6fb3a82\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d72c11d8e3254df9ba5b60b3b6fb3a82\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Tangi Utikere\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 5, inserting new section 67B(6) to enable employees to seek a determination from the Employment Relations Authority, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229ff47b1a606b40cab6e3371bc89c5dca\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022d921b02ea04e45049f921559e58c6ae8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d921b02ea04e45049f921559e58c6ae8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Kieran McAnulty\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 5, inserting new section 67B(6) to require an employer to pay legal costs to a dismissed employee, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d1e35d04c7944ffa86e75f0777e96bd2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00223e62acd64c1f4e34a39b8ba6799560f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e62acd64c1f4e34a39b8ba6799560f2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Rachel Boyack\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 5, inserting new section 67B(3) to entitle dismissed employees to a termination payment, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229b3c0653c85a4991a52020c67c1f8314\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022c097e38bc1e746288b22197c06e55693\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c097e38bc1e746288b22197c06e55693\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Barbara Edmonds\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 5, inserting new section 67B(6) to (8) to establish a fund for dismissed workers, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002234588ecf36be48d3a7b40222d436a7ae\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba7e7a73daf6464d813e63ae5cf0f7c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba7e7a73daf6464d813e63ae5cf0f7c7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Rachel Boyack\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 5, inserting new section 67B(3) to require written agreement between an employer and employee for any dismissal, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002271faed6dd8b742ee9799fda0b47dfe39\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022b304f2091ecc47debd59c270e645b6d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b304f2091ecc47debd59c270e645b6d7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Phil Twyford\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 5, repealing section 67B(5)(a), be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002254c3b4b552af4278a52d987e7e71bd19\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002200b68c007e47428cadc680608eaf41f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002200b68c007e47428cadc680608eaf41f8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 5, inserting new section 67B(6) to require any disagreements about trial provisions to be referred to mediation services, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002217dec988e03f40f38691b3379a77ae63\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00225e41cfe78e8045b1a8915eceaa8a3793\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e41cfe78e8045b1a8915eceaa8a3793\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Ginny Andersen\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 5, inserting new section 67B(2A) requiring employers to keep records of dismissal processes under trial periods, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002218b8af22aa194a0c8db0a4382184fe28\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022152fc219eed44548b53fe369e4c0fe6f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022152fc219eed44548b53fe369e4c0fe6f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 5, exempting certain employees from legal proceedings being brought against them by their employer, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002212af6f57248d4c77a4b03132fb92b9ca\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022f52fa1a4116443529031a89007f55f13\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f52fa1a4116443529031a89007f55f13\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Helen White\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 5, inserting new section 67B(6) limiting the number of times an employer can utilise a trial period, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002298c8951eea384dedb9530e73d39a7713\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002264e094c61ed441d28da5e444ec248aea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002264e094c61ed441d28da5e444ec248aea\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Camilla Belich\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 5, exempting workers listed under Schedule 1A of the Employment Relations Act from trial periods, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022438246c37c91483e9a1050c3522a09c1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00224840de1e05dd4a9dbb8ba0313dd11fbc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224840de1e05dd4a9dbb8ba0313dd11fbc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Helen White\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 5, limiting the number of employees that an employer may dismiss under a trial provision per calendar year, be agreed to. All those in favour, say Aye, to the contrary, No. The Noes have it. A party vote is called for. Please conduct a party vote. [Interruption] Whoever the member is who\u2019s trying to be a budgie over there, stop it please. This will be\u2014[Interruption] Sorry, who was that member whistling? Stand, withdraw, and apologise. That\u2019s the second time you\u2019ve done it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226950acc835f74f7f92995cf11aa6fc0d\u0022\u003ERyan Hamilton\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, Mr Chair, I do apologise for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221417c292e356479188c98208bfa87f7e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022790c6939092f4efa93674c095b3f294c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00225e9a24ceadd4479293a2f5e8a3022c41\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e9a24ceadd4479293a2f5e8a3022c41\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Camilla Belich\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 5, requiring third party witnesses to verify trial provisions, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c96175c29ecd408a9532eb227302d3c3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022db7c2b9e875249338d01b173023e947c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db7c2b9e875249338d01b173023e947c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Camilla Belich\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 5, barring employers from using trial periods for three years if they are found to have previously used them unlawfully, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ce4ead93b70f478ebab0a44a5d6c9596\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002231e25216a0934ad1bfac46368c378093\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231e25216a0934ad1bfac46368c378093\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Jan Tinetti\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 5, proposing a penalty regime for employers who unlawfully use trial periods, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224edf1d36a77947b8abe026a431298582\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00221a8e559a7f214849bc4b1c8161aad467\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a8e559a7f214849bc4b1c8161aad467\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Jan Tinetti\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 5, providing for dismissed employees to be retroactively entitled to beneficiary payments, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002212476154a1314251ae80ce76092a14db\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00225b372020d1f04babb629cc654330b784\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b372020d1f04babb629cc654330b784\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Helen White\u2019s tabled amendment to insert new clause 6 is out of order as being contrary to the object and principles of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225916ed310f0d4c98ba4100be813c8db6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 5 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 5 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022620c5b1a15cc472d93af37fefeca4eac\u0022\u003ENew clause 6  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001348\u0022\u003ENew section 67BA inserted (Monitoring and reporting on use of trial provisions) \u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00223ebf79ca3178497f8d64d7d011637dec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223ebf79ca3178497f8d64d7d011637dec\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to new clause 6, set out on Amendment Paper 7. This is an amendment proposed by Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March requiring annual monitoring and reporting on the use of trial provisions and their impact on the labour market. The question is that the amendment inserting new clause 6 set out on Amendment Paper 7 in the name of Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022f50f5176404442a29af8eb33c50dfcbf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f50f5176404442a29af8eb33c50dfcbf\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. We know that the coalition has agreed to follow the best available data and evidence and wants to be guided by the facts. My amendment is an opportunity to honour that commitment by ensuring that we monitor and report annually on the use of these trial provisions and their impact on the labour market, to see, then, if what the Minister has spoken about actually comes to fruition. If the Minister is very confident on what the coalition campaigned on, then there is no reason to fear having this reporting and monitoring in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EWhat we hope that we can then achieve via this reporting is the effects of the trial provisions on things like wages. I\u2019ve spoken about wages and about a couple of concerns we have around the negative impact these trials could have\u2014things like job security, so these provisions, for example, enabling people to stay longer or shorter amounts of time in those jobs, and the terms of conditions of those employees. Are we improving health and safety standards in the workplace as a result of these trial provisions, particularly the effects on M\u0101ori, Pasifika, women, youth, and disabled employees? I\u2019ve canvassed some of those population groups in previous contributions, but I think it\u2019s really important that we do have information on how specific population groups are affected, and I think, particularly when it comes to M\u0101ori, that we also remind ourselves of our Tiriti commitments and therefore make sure that we are taking due diligence when it comes to policy making.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThe other component in my amendment is for the department to prepare a report every year and for that report to be publicly available within three months of the end of the financial year. This is also important for public scrutiny and for the public to have access to that information about how those trials are going for employers and workers, as they are people we serve and they deserve to have that information made available to them. As part of my amendment, an employer \u201Cmust\u2014(a) provide information that is reasonably required by the department for the purpose of the reports;\u201D and then we establish that link between those relevant departments and the employer, and we think that\u2019s really important. Also, the employer must \u201C(b) notify the department as soon as practicable if the employer becomes aware that the information they have provided is or has become inaccurate.\u201D I think this is important as well, because we can\u2019t just take that feedback about the impacts of those 90-day trials in good faith. We have to have those protections and safeguards to address information that may not be presented.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI cannot emphasise enough how much I think that the Minister should take on board these suggestions in good faith. If we are to be guided by the facts, and if the Minister is confident on what she\u2019s spoken to, then this will just further add to her statement. It will further add to everything she has said, and there should be no concerns about this amendment, because sunlight will end up giving us clarity on the impact of the 90-day trials. It\u2019s been well canvassed that there\u2019s limited domestic evidence on the impact of 90-day trials here. Whatever little we have would not really be supporting what the Minister has brought forward, but I do think that amendment on the reporting would help guide us as legislators to make better decisions going forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m really interested in hearing exactly what steps she wants to take if she doesn\u2019t want to take this amendment on board. I know she talks about investigating it, but what does that look like? Can she give us confidence that the reporting and the monitoring will be thorough and that there will be resource allocated to this? Otherwise, I think this amendment presents a really good opportunity to be guided by facts and evidence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022 data-id=\u00223e091bebc43047108b573863c74a4e7b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e091bebc43047108b573863c74a4e7b\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for his suggestion, but as I\u2019ve suggested in clauses 4 and 5, and now in clause 6, I will consider any research and evaluation plans in the context of my wider work. However, I don\u2019t consider it appropriate to include these provisions in this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u00228d65da50a55f4693bc666f38ebbc0fbf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d65da50a55f4693bc666f38ebbc0fbf\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and I would also like to speak to the amendment before us in the name of Ricardo Mene\u0301ndez March looking at monitoring and reporting on the use of trial provisions. One of the things that members who have read the regulatory impact statement on this bill will note is the lack of information about how trial provisions are used, and I think that this particular amendment goes quite a long way to making sure that that information would be recorded. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EOne of the issues is that we can do studies on the relative impact of hiring, and there\u2019s been quite a bit of a reference in this debate and in previous readings to the research commissioned by the Treasury that showed there wasn\u2019t an uptake, an uptick of hiring even though that was the intention of the trial provision. But one of the things they did note is the actual use of trial provisions within individual employment contracts is not something that is centrally recorded in relation to if\u2014so it\u2019s really difficult to know to the extent that this is actually included within employment contracts in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo I think that this would be a really useful thing. I know the Minister has responded to Mr Mene\u0301ndez March to state that she doesn\u2019t think that she wanted to include this particular provision at this stage. But I think I would ask her to reconsider that because I think this is very sensible. I don\u2019t think it goes against the policy of the Act at all. In fact, I think this would strengthen the bill that she has in front of her because it would show that she\u2019s open to receiving additional information on the efficacy of the lawmaking on which she is endeavouring to put through the Chamber at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI support this particular provision, and I am interested\u2014I found the responses from the Minister, although helpful, a little bit vague in terms of the actual concrete steps that she\u2019s looking to take. So I\u2019d just like to say that from my end, I support this amendment and I think it would be incumbent on the Minister to go into a bit more detail on the actual steps that she\u2019ll be taking in order to monitor the various labour market impacts that extending the trial period as much as this particular bill does extend it from a very small section of employees, about 28 percent, to every employee would have on the employment market. So I support this amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8e16a8141d349bb8db149f94fbacfa7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8e16a8141d349bb8db149f94fbacfa7\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E I too stand to support the amendment that\u2019s been put forward by Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March. As the previous speaker Camilla Belich has asked the Minister, she\u2019s asking for a bit more detail as to how this forms as part of the Minister\u2019s business-as-usual (BAU), because the amendment that the member has put forward is not BAU. There is no monitoring BAU as part of a portfolio to be able to provide each financial year, make it publicly available within three months at the end of the financial year to which this report relates, which the amendment speaks to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EI also wanted to ask the Minister, again, adding on\u2014can you provide more detail as to how much you will report as part of your BAU or monitor as part of your BAU? The Natural and Built Environment Act repeal that went through\u2014was it yesterday or this morning; sorry, today, because it\u2019s still Tuesday\u2014had a specific post-100-day assessment clause in it. Now, it wasn\u2019t part of the bill, but it was part of the disclosure statement. Apologies to the Minister; I wasn\u2019t able to find a departmental disclosure statement. I wasn\u2019t sure whether one was needed for this bill. But in that particular Natural and Built Environment Bill that was put through, it actually had a specific clause which said, as part of the 100-day initiatives\u2014so the Government\u2019s 100-day initiatives\u2014there would be an assessment or monitoring of the bill because it had gone through urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ESo my additional question to the Minister is\u2014she has made clear that she is not supportive of this amendment. We are asking for a bit more detail as to how this comes within her BAU, but also, one, whether there was a disclosure statement prepared for this bill; and, if not, what is her intention in meeting the Government\u2019s post-100-days monitoring evaluation\u2014which we have seen in other bills\u2014because this bill has gone through urgency? So those are the three various questions that I would like some answers from the Minister, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb055989cbc0491697cc04e084175465\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb055989cbc0491697cc04e084175465\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I just want to add one simple thing to this debate, because I think it is very important. We have about 80 percent of employees who are on individual agreements. We have absolutely no idea what\u2019s in those agreements, and this work about trials mainly fits into that area, because it won\u2019t be something that is very happily adopted in the collective agreements. The collective agreements are things we have some sight of because they\u2019re collected centrally, and so we can see those\u2014we can see what\u2019s in them. But what we can\u2019t see is the complex situation in an individual agreement, which may be made with an employment builder or it may be something that\u2019s entirely original.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EWhat I\u2019ve found in those agreements is that there will be clauses that say what you expect them to say, and entirely new clauses which you haven\u2019t ever thought of, which might actually affect how these things are working. I\u2019ve given you one example tonight, which is the restraints of trade that are increasingly used to tie up employees so they cannot go and work for others and they cannot ask for a pay rise, because they cannot afford to leave. In combination, a trial period in those agreements is a problem, and I haven\u2019t heard an acknowledgment that it\u2019s a problem. I\u2019ve heard that it\u2019s another piece of work, but it\u2019s not another piece of work; it\u2019s a way of finding out\u2014monitoring this piece of work and its impact, and what\u2019s impacting on it and what isn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ESo what I\u2019d like to know is: have you got a plan to have a look at the effectiveness of your legislation in this case? Have you got a plan that involves seeing the whole picture?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210969899e9b04d619845a72fed944073\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CHas the Minister got a plan?\u201D\u2014don\u2019t bring the Chair into the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c46bb96c58be49b396edb94662af56b8\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry\u2014has the Minister got a plan? I apologise, Madam Chair. Has the Minister got a plan to look at the overarching work and the place of trial periods within the context of an individual agreement? And are we going to see what impact that clause is having in conjunction with other clauses? What is the plan to monitor the performance of her Government and her decision here to make this a policy, given that she has made a strong argument and she has pinned her flag to the mast that this will help a particular section of New Zealand? How will we know who it helps and who it does not help?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u002283acc867aacf4409a2e715ddf8f72190\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283acc867aacf4409a2e715ddf8f72190\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022832cd3f6431d45dab88f3bcf99048dd8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002219bc7e7f615b47c5a954ac0259d022c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002219bc7e7f615b47c5a954ac0259d022c2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the amendment inserting new clause 6 set out on Amendment Paper 7 in the name of Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223be13e9e40a94b2f80a0ee0c7d28cd85\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e492d65c46744547b923c3f0d84729bb\u0022\u003ENew clause 6  New section 67BA inserted (Review of operation of section 67A) \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002233666d8608b740a4ab3de5739b89983e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002233666d8608b740a4ab3de5739b89983e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to the debate on new clause 6, set out on Amendment Paper 8. This is an amendment proposed by Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March requiring a review of the operation of section 67A three years after the bill\u2019s commencement. Just before we start taking calls on this, I just want to note that it\u2019s a very narrow clause, just like the last one, so we don\u2019t want to see anything repetitive; we just want to stick to the point of the clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022617804034c1e415580eccf57f8a7406e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022617804034c1e415580eccf57f8a7406e\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. So, again, I don\u2019t mean to sound repetitive; it\u2019s just that we haven\u2019t had the select committee process. But I think what this seeks to add in this amendment under my name is the ability for the House\u2014and I make the difference compared to my previous call, and I talk about the House because this amendment does have a requirement to report to the House as opposed to just kind of publish the ongoing review each financial year. So there are those differences about the reporting mechanisms that are being presented in this amendment that I\u2019m proposing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThis is a three-year proposed review, and particularly when it comes to any effects on outcomes for workers when it comes to employment\u2014so it could be quite broad, and it does then allow for some discretion about the scope of what we would be looking for. It\u2019s a bit less prescriptive\u2014well, it\u2019s quite a lot less prescriptive than the previous amendment that I put previously. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThen it also gives the Minister discretion, while requiring the Minister to \u201Censure that the persons and organisations\u201D\u2014including representatives of employees and employers\u2014\u201Cthat the Minister thinks appropriate are consulted during the preparation of the report\u201D about the matters to be considered in the report. That should, in my view, allow the Minister to freely canvass what she has previously spoken about in terms of the needs of employers and that flexibility that she seeks to embed in the bill that she\u2019s put forward. But it also then allows that worker\u2019s voice to be present, right, which we didn\u2019t have because there was no select committee report, and the Minister has been unable to present that worker voice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThen, lastly, there\u2019s a requirement for the Minister to present a copy of the report to the House of Representatives, so then this allows for us to have that more substantive debate on the issue. No matter what the make-up of Parliament is, it just allows those debates to continue to be carried, and then it allows that report to then be used by the public as well. And it gives the public confidence that when we are introducing something that has such a big material impact, that they can use the report that is being presented to the House for research and for that public discourse. I think that\u2019s, again, really important. In my view, it also addresses some of the previous things that we\u2019ve debated around the lack of awareness that was identified on any policy that changes employment law. Because by having an amendment that requires that public discussion in the House, you are also kind of lifting the awareness constantly each three years for it to be then debated in the public.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ESo I think this, again, reinforces what the coalition set out to do, which is to make decisions based on facts. This allows for evidence gathering and those facts to be out in the public, rather than making decisions without that information being available prior. So I think it, in my view, should be considered by the Minister, and I think, in fact, it\u2019s in line with the goals of the coalition, despite myself not agreeing with the intent of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022 data-id=\u0022a1a35a9339694626aec484d70372a18b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a1a35a9339694626aec484d70372a18b\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019d like to respond and thank the member for his contribution, also noting that I responded to this in clause 4, clause 5, and in the previous amended attempt at clause 6\u2014and will repeat it again\u2014that I will work to consider my research and evaluation plans in the context of my wider work programme in further months. However, I do not believe that there is an appropriate need for a review provision in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u00221375fff2ccd1419ea4f4374b6040cdfa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221375fff2ccd1419ea4f4374b6040cdfa\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you for the opportunity to take a contribution on the amendment in the name of a colleague from the Green Party, Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March, introducing a new clause 6. I guess I just wanted to put to the Minister the importance of including some provisions within the bill that would provide the Government and the Minister and the ministry that monitors this legislation with the evidence base that is needed in order to properly monitor the impact of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThroughout the debate tonight, we have heard about some of those impacts that colleagues have raised, one being the mental health impacts. We\u2019ve heard some quite distressing stories about the mental health impacts of those who have been subject to a dismissal under the 90-day trial, including a very serious result, which my colleague Jan Tinetti shared with the House this evening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThere have also been questions raised around the cost to the taxpayer. For those who exit an employment relationship who have been dismissed under a 90-day trial, there\u2019s a likelihood\u2014quite a high likelihood, I would say\u2014that they then become subject to receiving a benefit, and that is a cost to the taxpayer. So it will be useful to be able to do some evidence gathering, and we\u2019re just noting the clause, in particular, is looking at any effects on outcomes for workers in employment. That would be the type of impact of someone who had been in employment who was leaving their employment, but also those who are within the employment, whether they are more likely, for example, to try to negotiate a higher wage rate, whether they may be more likely to join a union, whether they may be more likely\u2014colleagues in previous contributions have talked about workers being willing to leave a job that might be safe; you know, they\u2019ve gone past that 90-day trial, but they might be seeking to, for example, apply for a role where they would be having a higher rate of pay and they may be less willing to do so if that presents a risk that they would then be subject to a 90-day trial.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThese are the kinds of matters that it would be very useful, I believe, for the Minister, for the Government, for the House to have some evidence of. So just reading out the amendment, which is that after three years following the commencement of the Employment Relations (Trial Periods) Amendment Act, require a report to be prepared \u201Con the operation and effects of section 67A, in particular any effects on outcomes for workers in employment.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI just really take note on that point around outcomes for workers, because throughout this debate, the other side often raise the issues that employers may raise, but this specific new clause would be specific around potential outcomes for workers in their employment. I\u2019m very interested in the impacts, particularly for women workers, who\u2014as my colleague Helen White pointed out earlier\u2014are often less risk averse around actually looking for another job. There were some amendments I put up tonight that would have limited the scope of this bill to those earning over a certain amount, and, again, that\u2019s often because\u2014[Interruption] Yeah, we\u2019re getting to that clause. We\u2019re looking at the outcomes on workers and it\u2019s very clear we\u2019re talking about the outcomes on workers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThe point I\u2019m making is that there could be an outcome, and one of the things around research is that you put out a hypothesis and then you test it. One of the hypotheses I\u2019d like to put out is that those on lower wages may well be in a position where they\u2019re less likely to negotiate for a pay rise and they may be less likely to apply for a different job with a different employer. So I would say to the members opposite who seem to be interjecting a lot tonight\u2014I mean, if they\u2019re so interested in this clause, then maybe they should take a fulsome five-minute call. I\u2019d encourage them to do that. They\u2019ve been, well, I wouldn\u2019t say quiet tonight; they\u2019ve actually certainly had quite a bit to say, and I\u2019d really encourage them, if they\u2019ve got\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f7dbbdcc3e84a0f8babf15b8139d060\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: To the point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bc0ebbf4c204815b8b708b79dcbf0c0\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014something to say, stand up and say it. So just responding to the interjections, Madam Chair. So I think this is an excellent amendment in the name of Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March. It would insert a new clause 6. It would allow us to have, as soon as is practicable after three years, a review. One of the things the Minister will be required to do would be to not just hear from employers but to hear from unions and others that might be interested. You could have employment consultants, for example. People who work with people with mental health could be consulted. So it\u2019s an excellent amendment and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e87fa318215e4814a1d76a3553ea4c2a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e87fa318215e4814a1d76a3553ea4c2a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to take a call from Camilla Belich, but I want this to be very strictly to the point of the clause, please. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022748659cdfa544ac1981e69dd1c3d8d8b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022748659cdfa544ac1981e69dd1c3d8d8b\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Noted, Madam Chair. Thank you for the opportunity to speak to the amendment in the name of Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March, amending 67BA which is a new clause to be added in at clause 6 of the Employment Relations (Trial Periods) Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThere are three parts to this particular amendment, and I won\u2019t take the full amount of time, but I want to make a few comments on the operative parts of it. The first one is, as we know, a review provision. However, the member has set down a review in three years and, in my mind, I think that\u2019s probably a bit too long. I think it would be preferable to have a review after a shorter period of time, possibly one year or two years. I would like to ask the Minister if she\u2014she\u2019s obviously indicated she\u2019s not interested in this particular provision as it stands at the moment. However, if it was amended to change the number of years, in fact, to make it a shorter period of time, would she be more open to it? Alternatively, in fact, a longer period of time would also be better than nothing, in my view. So we\u2019ve got three years at the moment; would she be minded to agree to review provision if it was five years? So that\u2019s 67BA(1) of the amendments in Men\u00E9ndez March\u2019s name. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe second part of that provision is looking at the people who should be consulted as part of the review, and we have had, I think, some very relevant and useful contributions on other people that could be included in that provision. But I wanted to take the time just to note that this bill is going through without a select committee process. I did read, when I was looking at my phone briefly in between taking contributions, that when this bill was first introduced it was also introduced under urgency. I wondered if she had information about that or whether this is, in fact, the first time urgency has been used in a trial period bill. As we know there have been\u2014and she stated in her first reading speech\u2014four different iterations of trial period legislation as they\u2019ve been through the House. It hasn\u2019t been to a select committee, and I think clause 2, 67BA(2), addresses some of the issues relating to the fact we didn\u2019t have a select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe third provision which would be useful I think for the House would be to present a copy to the House of Representatives. I\u2019d go a little bit further than my colleague Mr Men\u00E9ndez March and just say: would it be, in fact, more appropriate for us to actually have a special debate on that report when it was tabled? I won\u2019t be tabling a separate amendment to make that suggestion, but I\u2019d be interested in the Minister\u2019s thoughts. If she was to be agreeable to perhaps a shorter or longer period in clause 67BA(1), in that operative provision of three years at the moment, would she be open to having a debate in the House looking at this report that he has suggested? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022 data-id=\u0022d995ca094dc34467a9c52dc70264c382\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d995ca094dc34467a9c52dc70264c382\u0022\u003EDANA KIRKPATRICK (National\u2014East Coast):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229b00abc2417c4c2d8069e720b544eb27\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00229223023ccad046b089bbab8a46ac62c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229223023ccad046b089bbab8a46ac62c8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the amendment inserting new clause 6 set out on Amendment Paper 8 in the name of Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221e62b1ac5da14160914d5bf36d6574c1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c637c6d3b8ef4ab9b24abee53e2026a4\u0022\u003ENew clause 6  Section 103 amended (Personal grievance) \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00225d3528c97bca4a669c9dc3a89e24c71f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d3528c97bca4a669c9dc3a89e24c71f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to the debate on new clause 6 set out on the Hon Ginny Andersen\u2019s tabled amendment. This amendment seeks to enable an employee dismissed unfairly under a trial period to bring a personal grievance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u0022da168bfed44a49ebae374dd3507da223\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da168bfed44a49ebae374dd3507da223\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Madam Chair. Thank you, Madam Chair. I wasn\u2019t going to interrupt the vote because you had gone to the vote. Not asking Madam Chair to reopen the vote for clause 5 and 6, but actually just a reflection as we go into one more amendment clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EEven though the amendment clauses that have been tabled are quite small and narrow, the Minister has been saying she\u2019s been repeating answers that she\u2019s given to different clauses\u2014clauses 4, 5, and 6. The concern that we have on this side of the House is that they are all still new amendments and, because we don\u2019t have a select committee process, we need to be able to speak to the various amendments. Even though the Minister\u2019s answer might be the same, they are relevant to previous clauses, not the new clauses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ESo I just ask, Madam Chair, as we debate the next clause by Ginny Andersen, there are a couple of questions which I don\u2019t believe have been addressed by the Minister, and I\u2019m not going to reopen them, but they\u2019re related to about four different questions that had not been addressed. But nevertheless, as we go into this new clause debate, I ask that Madam Chair just reflect on, even though the answer may be the same by the Minister for previous clauses, we are debating a new clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00224af5f21dce6a4d58b4499572ca7f9894\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224af5f21dce6a4d58b4499572ca7f9894\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for that point of order. What I would say is that some of the debate over the course of this committee stage has been quite extended. The last two Amendment Papers were very narrow. This one appears to be a little bit broader, but I do want the conversation to be kept to what\u2019s in the clause. I\u2019d also say that it is up to the Minister as to whether she wants to take further responses. If she chooses not to, then that\u2019s her choice. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u00229e1f18c3d0fc4689a6725850f318a752\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229e1f18c3d0fc4689a6725850f318a752\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Thank you for the opportunity to speak to this new clause. I think it\u2019s really important. I\u2019d like to highlight the importance of this addition to essentially enable an employee who has been dismissed unfairly under a trial period to be reinserted to provide that ability in the Employment Relations Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EOne of the main reasons that this is important is that those most vulnerable workers, which we know through the information we\u2019ve received in the public domain, there was leaked Cabinet advice which specifically indicated that M\u0101ori, Pasifika, rangatahi, and disabled were made\u2014that directly impacts in terms of workers\u2019 rights. So we\u2019ve seen two lots of legislation through this Chamber. In both instances, it is the most vulnerable workers that are actually impacted upon. So it\u2019s really essential when we are making sure that we get this right\u2014and I think it is most definitely not right\u2014that we look at, if you are essentially taking away and removing the ability from an employee to have a personal grievance within the first three months of their employment, it is essential that we go through and look at all of the possibilities of where that can be taken advantage of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThis unfairly further tips the balance in favour of the employer and disadvantages employees. It will mean that those people will be discriminated against, whether they be working mothers, whether they be Ma\u014Dri, whether they be Pasifika\u2014it is those people who we know through research, through the analysis we\u2019ve taken, that are those ones that are taken advantage of through the employment process. In order to protect the rights of those people who need it the most in New Zealand, it is fundamentally important that we take real consideration of my proposed amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo in section 103 following (k) to insert a new (l) that employee has been dismissed unfairly under a trial period. That means you cannot legislate away workers\u2019 rights. So by enabling that provision to be in place, if there is discrimination in the workplace under a 90-day period, it rightly reinstates workers\u2019 rights to be able to stand up and say that that was an unfair dismissal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIt really bothers me. It gets to the core of the reason why a lot of the people are here today in politics and in this place, is because we stand up and fight for those people who don\u2019t have a voice in this place\u2014for those people who aren\u2019t employers, who don\u2019t own a business, who don\u2019t run a company, and who are dependent upon a good, strong working relationship in order to put food on their table each week and to be able to pay the rent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EWhat concerns me most dearly is that the erosion of workers\u2019 rights by taking away the very ability to bring a personal grievance after being dismissed will mean increased unemployment, will mean that children are in homes where there is not food. It will mean that it brings down our common standards of how we treat each other. And it fails to recognise that we are an interconnected community. We are part of the same country, and if we turn our backs on the workers then that will mean, in the long run, New Zealand is worse off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo I think it is inherently important that we reinstate basic rights by enabling this new provision to be reinserted within the Employment Relations Act, to enable those people who are dismissed and feel that they have the right to bring a personal grievance against their employer, they should be able to do that. My question to the Minister is: how do you justify stripping away the most fundamental right, which is if someone has been discriminated against in their workplace and has been subsequently dismissed, then they\u2014what is the reason or what is the benefit to New Zealand by nullifying those fundamental workers\u2019 rights?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u00224517ae8579bd4cb49a87cf8d527739bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224517ae8579bd4cb49a87cf8d527739bb\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. The personal grievance right is a basic human right. It\u2019s something that we\u2019ve taken for granted for many, many years. Sadly, these rights, as Ginny Andersen was saying, are being stripped away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EOne of the anomalies when I was a union official for many years\u2014one of the major problems we had\u2014was not having the opportunity to enforce legislation, particularly when it came to kaupapa like redundancy. We don\u2019t have that legal right to force redundancy payments through. But, really, we say\u2014we\u2019ve always said in the movements\u2014that employers have a moral obligation to pay compensation to workers, and employers have a moral obligation to allow people to roll out and utilise the personal grievance provisions. It is a basic, basic right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EI said to the Minister earlier on that, when I was employment Minister, we had a number of strategies that addressed issues like this\u2014that she chose to ignore, sadly. I talked to her about the M\u0101ori employment strategy that was embarked on and rolled out. My good friend Janice Panoho was the chair of that. If the Minister bothered to look at that, she would see how important the personal grievance\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279b23aa95c96445b9ca567521e3f543d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Is this about unfair dismissal?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1b6a2b6bcdb411190eff86866ac607e\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I\u2019m coming back to the bill. I\u2019m just giving some precedent, Madam Chair, in terms of how important the personal grievance provisions are. It is absolutely imperative that workers get an opportunity, Madam Chair, to access that provision. Anything can happen. What we\u2019re saying here\u2014what the Minister is, essentially, saying here\u2014is that a worker does not have the right, has no right, to take an employer to court, and an employer can do anything to that worker. That\u2019s what the Minister and the National Party are saying. Workers have rights whether they\u2019re on trials or not. We\u2019ve said this for many years: workers have a right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard tonight from some of our speakers, from some of our women\u2014we heard this from Tamatha Paul and other speakers\u2014what happens when some of these young women are sexually harassed within the workplace. They have no access to support. They\u2019re not able to respond at all. What is this Government saying? \u201CGet lost. You can\u2019t use the provisions that should be there for everyone.\u201D That\u2019s why this is such an important provision that Ginny Andersen has put up. All workers should have opportunities to justice. They should not be prejudiced against just because they\u2019re on a trial. Everybody should have rights, and that\u2019s what this side of the House has been trying to say for the last few hours.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EI\u2019m really pleased\u2014it doesn\u2019t matter what the time is, Madam Chair\u2014that we have to address a basic fundamental human right. Personal grievances are important, and if a worker doesn\u2019t have that, a worker doesn\u2019t have anything. So I\u2019m asking the Minister tonight what she is going to do. Will she address some of the strategies that have been rolled out by the previous Government, where we had a women\u2019s strategy that has been rolled out, a strategy for M\u0101ori, a strategy for Pacific Islanders, a strategy for disabled people? It\u2019s all there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EWhy have we got these strategies? Because there have been barriers put up against all these different groups of people, and all these people want are basic human rights. They want a proper wage. They want access to the personal grievance area. They want support. They want their disparities recognised. I want to know from this Minister: will she support this type of provision? And, given the background that we\u2019ve heard from her party, where they are so concerned about human rights, surely this personal grievance provision would be attractive to her? So I ask her to address that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022 data-id=\u0022b3e7a1ddea6f49d2a94395f64175b174\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b3e7a1ddea6f49d2a94395f64175b174\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Look, I\u2019d just like to quickly address both members who made a contribution\u2014that this is actually quite a narrow bill. It\u2019s taking a law that existed under the previous Labour-led Government for 90-day trials for small and medium sized businesses and extends it to all employers. From the contributions of both members, anybody listening may not be aware that we actually do still currently have 90-day trials in law and we\u2019re simply extending them. It is not as controversial as some of the scaremongering that I\u2019ve heard in these contributions. However, talking to this specific amendment, this would undermine the entire purpose of the bill, and so, therefore, we do not support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022d9770878863845399de91abffe79f0dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d9770878863845399de91abffe79f0dc\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a pleasure to take my first call on this very specific amendment, so I appreciate being able to make a contribution. I think this is a really important amendment to discuss because\u2014and to add a new angle to the debate\u2014I want to get the Minister\u2019s view on why she doesn\u2019t think the intent of this amendment actually marries with what she has previously described around enabling that good matching of employers and workers to actually happen in a way that happens in good faith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EIf the Minister is so confident that she wants to make sure that there\u2019s flexibility in finding good matches, then there won\u2019t be those unjustifiable and unfair dismissals. If the Minister is so confident that her legislation will lead to a better matching of employers and workers, then she should allow for personal grievances to be put in place when there\u2019s unfair dismissals, because otherwise what this tells me is that the Minister is not actually that confident that 90-day trials lead to fair outcomes. If the Minister is so confident that 90-day trials lead to fair outcomes, she would have nothing to fear about personal grievances being able to be in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m really curious to unpack how her previous statements regarding good matching between employers and workers and particularly around flexibility in the workplace match. To me, it says a lot that the members to my left say that it\u2019s not a new\u2014because they seem to not be listening and just being snarky and making comments. For the ones that are new, I would invite them to pay more attention in the House and do more service to the communities that they are supposed to serve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EReturning to the amendment, I think that the key thing here is, if she doesn\u2019t believe that this adds flexibility, I\u2019m interested to know why. Then, how does she think that without this amendment we can still continue to protect workers from unscrupulous employers? Because this amendment presents one of the few last safeguards that could be introduced at a time where the Government is presenting a huge, huge concession when it comes to workers\u2019 rights in the name of productivity, according to the Minister, and in the name of flexibility. So yeah, again, really keen to unpack how this amendment, in her view, contradicts her previous sentiments around making sure that employers and workers match.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u00223f75decc8b1a45b9ba8916c0b3525cc6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f75decc8b1a45b9ba8916c0b3525cc6\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, for the opportunity to take a call on the new clause 6 amendment proposed by my colleague Ginny Andersen. I just want to pick up on some of the comments raised previously around the ability to take a personal grievance, and just speak to a little bit of experience around that but also what this new clause would achieve, which I think would be a very good addition to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ESection 103 of the Employment Relations Act lists a series of claims that can be used to take a personal grievance, one of which is sexual harassment. There are a variety of different claims there, and the Act goes on to also provide the test for that. One of the questions I\u2019ve got for the Minister is whether any analysis has been provided to her by officials, in particular, about the risks to employers with the reintroduction of 90-day trials through to employers with 20 or more employees. The reason I raise that is that when this law was introduced under the previous National Government, what we found in employment law was there were a number of employers who used the law and subsequently did end up with a personal grievance being taken. In some cases it was found, for a variety of reasons, for example, one would be that the person\u2014I remember a good test case we had where somebody had actually technically started their employment before the employment agreement was signed and the 90-day trial agreed, and so they were allowed to therefore take a personal grievance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ESo I would put a proposition there that this introduction of this law actually presents a risk to employers. This is why I\u2019m specifically speaking to this clause, which is that it would be explicit that you could take a personal grievance. One of the things that we used to find a little bit when I took cases off into mediation and then sometimes a lawyer would step in and assist to the Employment Relations Authority: one of the things that would occur would be you would have this test out between process and outcome, and one of the things that would occur in those cases would be that an authority member or a judge, at times, would say, \u201CYes, this person has been unjustifiably dismissed because the process was poor, but, actually, there\u2019s a contribution from that employee and therefore I\u201D. There have even been judgments when the contribution from the employee was considered to be at 100 percent. So, ultimately, while they won the personal grievance case through a process, they ultimately received no financial remedy or reinstatement because they had contributed 100 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EOne of the reasons why I raise that particular example, coming back to this clause, is that by actually being explicit about the right to take a personal grievance, it doesn\u2019t actually mean that there is going to be a remedy for that employee. That\u2019s the point I want to make here: it still allows that process to be followed. It allows the employee that\u2019s been dismissed under a 90-day trial to be able to have the opportunity to test that using the legal remedies that are available to them. What it doesn\u2019t mean is that they will necessarily win that argument in either the authority or the court or a higher court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThe reason I raise this again, and I\u2019m particularly interested in hearing from the Minister, is whether any advice has been received as to whether the reintroduction of 90-day trials for larger employers presents a risk if they don\u2019t follow the process properly because there is case law sitting there on the books that actually allows people to still take a personal grievance. I would say we then have a situation where we have case law in the statute in contradiction with each other. That actually presents a risk in terms of analysis, and there may be situations that present themselves in the coming months where people are employed under a 90-day trial, dismissed under a 90-day trial, then able to take a grievance, and the courts say, \u201CActually, you can.\u201D, and that has happened.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI think the best option would be to put in place what is a very good amendment from Ginny Andersen because it would then actually be clear to employees and employers that under case law you can still take\u2014and I think it\u2019s important we get this on the Hansard for the Minister, actually: what is the intent? What is the advice received, because this will come up in the courts\u2014the intent. So if it\u2019s not in the Hansard from the Minister, I would suggest that there\u2019s probably employment lawyers that would read this Hansard and say, \u201CActually, you know, we haven\u2019t had that clarification from the Minister.\u201D So I\u2019d be very interested to hear from the Minister on this particular clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022 data-id=\u00222f160b824951481b9edd6459be0840fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f160b824951481b9edd6459be0840fc\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for her concern, but I believe that the member may misinterpret the intention of this clause. It is actually quite possible with people who are currently under 90-day trials, as was the law under the previous Labour-led Government, where it is still the current law that we have 90-day trials, people can raise a personal grievance on other matters, such as sexual harassment, as the Hon Willie Jackson raised. So just to clarify for the member, that law exists now. We\u2019re simply extending 90-day trials to all employers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022c59683274b224dc7bb13c166e3e44ff0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c59683274b224dc7bb13c166e3e44ff0\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I would just like to carry on the train of thought that the Minister raised in her contribution there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EYes, it is correct that you\u2019re able to take some personal grievances when you\u2019re in a 90-day trial. That is, in fact, the entire purpose of the Hon Ginny Andersen\u2019s amendment, because I heard the Minister respond to a previous speaker to say that she didn\u2019t support this amendment because it goes contrary to the whole purpose of this bill, which is not to allow any employee in a trial period to take a personal grievance. Well, in fact, the substance\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f352cd16ab7741dea7e7107d06d9ee53\u0022\u003EHon Brooke van Velden\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not what I said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226141c40cdb1744cba5b0d190737eea84\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m happy to hear a contribution from the Minister in due course. The substance of this provision is actually to allow the bill to exist with its purpose of not allowing unfair dismissal personal grievances to occur, but inserting another clause in clause 103(1), entitled \u201Cclause (l)\u201D, which essentially creates a new type of personal grievance, which is a type of personal grievance that can only occur when an employee has been dismissed unfairly in a trial period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo yes, an employee couldn\u2019t take a personal grievance for unfair dismissal during a relevant trial period. But if this provision was to go ahead, there would be a new personal grievance that only applies to people who were dismissed unfairly\u2014which is a different term to \u201Cunjustified\u201D, which is the common term used in relation to personal grievances in this Act. So it would create a new personal grievance for those who\u2019ve been treated unfairly under a trial period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo I think it actually does two things. It doesn\u2019t just insert that section; it also goes back. If you can see in the Act at (1)(a), it also includes the reference to (k) in the primary Act as well. So it would make, essentially, two changes: one to the bill; which would then allow the bill to amend the primary legislation, which is the Employment Relations Act, inserting another\u2014there\u2019s a whole list of personal grievances that are listed in section 103; it\u2019s one of the most important sections of the Employment Relations Act and it would add another one in there as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo I think it\u2019s a very good provision. I support the inclusion of that provision, and the reason that I do is I think it helps to mitigate some of the unfairness which has been discussed at length during this debate for individuals that are covered by a trial period. It would allow the trial periods to exist as the Minister intended with the introduction of this provision. But it would allow them, if they were treated unfairly, to take an additional personal grievance. And there are, as the Minister knows and she\u2019s mentioned, several exceptions to the overall ban on taking personal grievances. So the only one that is actually not allowed under the under the bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bf7863b7f344659aa231076817eb865\u0022\u003EHon Brooke van Velden\u003C/span\u003E: Very glad you\u2019ve discovered this since question time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2cf65042c9e4735bad9424583ad6ca6\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014is the unfair dismissal one, and this creates a new one there as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m interested whether the Minister wants to reconsider her position in relation to this section. Given my professional opinion of this, I think that may be something that she wants to reconsider. I think that it\u2019s very difficult to say to someone that you\u2019ve got no recourse to justice\u2014and this is about access to justice. Trial periods are serious in that they remove access to justice, and this provision goes some way to restoring the ability for individuals to gain justice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI\u2019m sure all members in this room, if they ever have a friend or loved one who is dismissed under a trial period, that feeling of frustration; that feeling of lack of justice; that feeling of unfairness that will just taint their entire life. I\u2019m not overstating that. It is hugely serious and something that I think has been touched on a lot in this debate. Jobs are not simply a means of employment: they are self-esteem, they are about how you identify, they are about your place in the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EIf people are not allowed to take action where they\u2019ve been treated unfairly in something that is so important to them, it is really important that we look at that, we take it seriously, and I think that this clause\u2014as proposed by the Hon Ginny Andersen\u2014goes some way into restoring dignity to those people covered by trial periods.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022f15a98f5428d44dabf4bb6749a734f72\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f15a98f5428d44dabf4bb6749a734f72\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. Thank you for the point of order, Mr Chair. Mr Chair, there is a convention that, in committee, members in charge of legislation should not take unfair advantage of a live microphone by way of interjection. Mr Chair, I wonder if, given that we\u2019re all a bit tired and I know the Minister is doing her best to observe those rules, whether you would allow my colleague Camilla Belich another five minutes to finish her points that I missed because the Minister was interjecting throughout her speech\u2014three times. I wonder if that would be the right way to move forward with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00222300360edc9c4f828472538d0b63a4b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222300360edc9c4f828472538d0b63a4b0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: I mean, I appreciate the point of order, but the member could also take another call. But I do want to bring back the focus to this very specific clause. I do want to acknowledge the energy in the committee tonight and the commitment from members right across the Chamber in this graveyard shift. But I would ask members opposite, in particular, to focus on this particular clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022d05f645e31874b5d8f1b02ce4a98d9b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d05f645e31874b5d8f1b02ce4a98d9b6\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and thanks to my colleague Arena Williams for the point of order. I do have some other thoughts on this particular provision, which I\u2019m happy to elucidate for you, Mr Chair, and for the members still present in the Chamber. I think it\u2019s actually interesting and I think it\u2019s timely that we have a provision that focuses on section 103, because, although this section is not mentioned specifically in the bill, which is before the committee at the moment, the sections which the bill amends do mention section 103. It is fundamentally important to a lot of the points that the Minister has made around access to justice. I do commend the Minister for not getting rid of the access to personal grievance provisions that exist under this Act. There\u2019s actually a significant number of them which are still included within this particular Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThis particular section, (l), which is what the Hon Ginny Andersen\u2019s amendment to the bill proposes to put in place, has a few different parts to it. In law, we would look at the different tests, in the particular provision, to make sure that we can prove them. So we would have to have an employee that has been dismissed for this to apply. So, obviously, anyone who had been dismissed from employment would be covered by that. That\u2019s the first leg of the test.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe second part of the test that would apply would be \u201Cunfairly\u201D. So there would have to be some kind of test. The Employment Relations Authority or Employment Court or the Court of Appeal of the Supreme Court, which are all of the courts that could potentially look at this particular provision\u2014and that, I think, underpins the seriousness of what we\u2019re discussing today\u2014could potentially look at that and they would have to say whether something had been done fairly or not. If that person was found to have been dismissed but that it was a fair dismissal, then that person would not be able to meet the second leg of the test. So I think that is very important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe third leg of the test would be under a trial period. If the person was found to have been dismissed and it wasn\u2019t a valid trial period\u2014I mean, this is something that\u2019s important to consider: often trial periods are found to be invalid. So it could be quite a likely situation that someone could think that they were dismissed under a trial period, and not actually be dismissed under a trial period because the employer did something wrong. I\u2019ve advised a lot of people on these cases. Every single case that I\u2019ve seen on trial periods, the employer has not done it correctly. They\u2019ve given someone a contract where they\u2019ve already started a shift\u2014that is not a valid trial period. They\u2019ve, for example, given it to someone who\u2019s already worked for them before\u2014that is not a valid trial period. So it could be that trial period, which would be the third leg of the test under this particular amendment that we\u2019re discussing, would not be fulfilled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo I think it\u2019s important to go through that to truly, fully understand the provision that\u2019s before us. The Minister does have the opportunity to change her mind and support this amendment\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227715aa23bd3941dbb8292b32ff595537\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right. Bishop did earlier.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238e7b92ee94a4e8e8eafd45bfbe37a3f\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014to allow access to justice. Yeah, exactly. It\u2019s not unprecedented for Ministers in the chair to reflect on the legislation before them and say, \u201CActually, this is a reasonable amendment which actually might add to the bill that\u2019s before the committee.\u201D\u2014which is made by Parliament. We have to think about that as well. The reason that we\u2019re putting forward these amendments, and the reason Ginny Andersen has put forward this amendment, is because this is a parliamentary bill, and what Parliament intends is important. Obviously, the Minister has a huge role in determining the direction that Parliament goes, but I think it\u2019s important that we reflect on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo I thank you, Mr Chair, for the opportunity to fully go through that section. I actually think it was helpful for me in terms of understanding the applicability of this particular section, and I hope it assists the Minister in her consideration of the amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00222e150181cfe04e22a4d871db7be9cde7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e150181cfe04e22a4d871db7be9cde7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we are coming to the end of this discussion. People are starting to repeat. So the next call that is taken\u2014it needs to be focused on this clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf72daf3827b4a6f9ace4405c61fd92a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf72daf3827b4a6f9ace4405c61fd92a\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chair, I thank you for the opportunity, because I want to come back to the previous contribution I made. I have a specific question for the Minister that wasn\u2019t addressed. So my specific question to the Minister about this clause asked what advice she had taken from officials, and that is what I actually want to hear from the Minister. So I need to raise it again, Mr Chair, because based on my earlier contribution it wasn\u2019t answered. [Interruption] I\u2019d love to hear from somebody on the other side, seeing they are so interested\u2014maybe they could take some more fulsome calls.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThe reason why I\u2019m raising this again is that we have had circumstances under this law when it was in existence last time, where employers were subject to personal grievances. My colleague Camila Belich has outlined in a bit more detail than I did previously some of the examples of that. So I want to come back to this clause, because it\u2019s very specific. What it says is that in section 103 it would insert that \u201Cthe employee has been dismissed unfairly under a trial period.\u201D I want to come to that part around \u201Cunfairly\u201D because that comes back to process. It is the process that is critical here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EOne of the things I am concerned about is that employers who might be listening to this debate will be becoming confused right now. There will be confusion out there amongst employers because the Minister has stated that employees can take a personal grievance, but we are being specific here around a personal grievance on the basis of an unfair dismissal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI want to come back to the question I asked and didn\u2019t get a thorough answer to from the Minister, which was about what advice officials have provided. Again, I bring it back to the point that the House is in urgency and we haven\u2019t had the opportunity to test out these matters with officials. If I was sitting on a select committee now, I would be asking for this to get a thorough response in a departmental report, and we haven\u2019t had that. So I really want to hear from the Minister what advice officials have given her about the risk that employers will still be subject to a personal grievance, based on both her comments in the committee stage tonight but also on what we know about case law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI made that point in my earlier contribution and I haven\u2019t had a response about the interaction between case law and what we put on the statute book. I note that my colleague Camilla Belich is a lawyer. I\u2019ve had the opportunity to be an organiser; she\u2019s been a lawyer so she does have a lot more knowledge on the legal complexities here. But my experience of working in this field is that there have been examples of people being put on trial periods and they\u2019re found to not have followed a proper process. So the point I made in my earlier contribution\u2014which, again, was not responded to by the Minister\u2014is that actually putting that clause in would give clarity to employers about a personal grievance for an unfair dismissal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI say again that it\u2019s not coming back to the substance of the dismissal; it\u2019s coming back to the process that\u2019s been followed. I am very keen to hear if officials have provided that advice, if that advice has been sought, about what risks this presents to employers, because if I was an employer, I\u2019d be quite nervous about going down a process of including a 90-day trial in an employment agreement. I\u2019d be feeling nervous, because in the Hansard tonight we\u2019re seeing some confusion in the responses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EAlso, we know that there are good test cases out there, and so I think it\u2019s actually in the Minister\u2019s interest to make sure that this is clarified for the committee tonight. Otherwise, her intent is for employers to be able to use this clause\u2014there may well be employers that wish to use this clause but elect not to because they are concerned that it would actually present them with a risk that they otherwise wouldn\u2019t have exposed themselves to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThis is an important point because people like Camilla Belich, Helen White, and me have worked in this field for a number of years and have seen this happen in action, in reality. It\u2019s not something we\u2019re raising out of randomness. It\u2019s a real issue, a live issue, that under that flaw that was brought in many years ago, it was unexpected but there were a number of cases that were put to the court and were won based on poor process. So I\u2019m really keen to hear more from the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022 data-id=\u00229b490292cb2f4e9d9fae5050e78acbea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b490292cb2f4e9d9fae5050e78acbea\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. It\u2019s a delight to take a call at this point in the evening. I just simply refer the member to paragraphs 3 to 5 of the regulatory impact statement that has been prepared for this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u00226ba993e9c8554803bddf5c5a395f5f87\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ba993e9c8554803bddf5c5a395f5f87\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s me!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cef7e1a9436b4b0fbe20ef678a8488ce\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the Hon Willie Jackson, it is you at 11.25!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022605a2ae9cc024e2182d2984fcf35d594\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: I didn\u2019t quite catch that, but I stand to support Ginny Andersen\u2019s amendment: section 103 amended in terms of the personal grievances in section 103 following 103(1). As I said earlier, access to the personal grievance provisions is a basic human right that has sadly, in our view, been ignored. But here\u2019s the point that we keep reiterating: vulnerable workers need this more than anyone. I spoke earlier about women workers\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5ed980a832b45f9b26a2fffba9a4abb\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: The other kinds of women workers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022080ec7a922de47c087796a5177984ef2\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, there\u2019s lots of workers and I talked about the different strategies\u2014I know the Government\u2019s been enjoying this. We rolled out a number of strategies when I was employment Minister in terms of women, Pasifika, and M\u0101ori. We were very considerate\u2014when the former Minister Robertson was leading us, we always had considerations for the Treaty. So I ask tonight, as a new point\u2014because, again, we know that the Treaty is a very integral part of what Governments do and has been at the forefront of a lot of debates. [Interruption] Mr Chair, I can\u2019t help it if someone down there is offended by the Treaty. I\u2019m bringing another aspect\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f170682b263d41539df88f809027639d\u0022\u003EDan Bidois\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Chair. I\u2019m just referring to Speaker\u2019s ruling 124/6 about relevance being determined at committee stage: if it is a particularly broad-ranging bill, then a broad-ranging committee stage can be considered. But this is quite a narrow bill and the member is talking about Treaty stuff and there\u2019s no thing in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acc8b8af40a84e7e965b03d8b787e40c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I definitely take the member\u2019s point and acknowledge the Minister who had an answer\u2014I was expecting a question about the answer, or a contribution about the answer, and the Hon Willie Jackson has strayed, unfortunately. I will let him continue his contribution, but he needs to focus on clause 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b74f9595b1bd42d8bf9f75fb67e19f28\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m really disappointed to hear you say that. I would have thought that you may have been supportive of what\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f72674c309734589bf2a1c8f0ac0ae08\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I was totally supportive, but I would be more supportive if you at least mentioned clause 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229da0638bd56c4803a30a0af9bfe23e7d\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014I was trying to say there, because\u2014well, we\u2019re talking about it, but, as you well know, Mr Chair, the Treaty is integral in just about every part of what we do, and we have had to attach it to most parts of legislation. So I\u2019m surprised that it\u2019s been ruled out here, because we\u2019re talking about women workers\u2014in an earlier amendment we were talking about women workers, we\u2019re talking about Pacific workers, we\u2019re talking about the disabled, and we\u2019re talking about M\u0101ori workers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003ENow, for M\u0101ori workers\u2014and that\u2019s why I\u2019m saying this is relevant, Mr Chair, if you could think about this for a second. This is relevant and just because the other side and Mr Bidois over there\u2014you know, I mean, he\u2019s not understanding the relevance here for workers who want to bring their disputes through the personal grievance area but also bring a Treaty perspective to the table. So we\u2019re talking about\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e7c21f17863400ea73ecab7d1d62ebd\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Relevance?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c43f3d0338be48c0a5677862d3759601\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, absolutely. I was not a former union lawyer or academic; I was a freezing worker, as you well know. That\u2019s a fact. I come from the shop floor. So I\u2019m not like my flash colleagues over here, but I\u2019ve been very lucky to be part of this team. And from the shop floor, when personal grievances came in, it was an area that gave people an opportunity. That\u2019s why\u2014here\u2019s the point\u2014in a trial period, workers need the opportunity to access this right, a basic human right that all workers should have access to. And M\u0101ori workers\u2014as I said, I want you to think about this, Mr Chair\u2014should have an opportunity to put forward arguments with regard to the Treaty partnership as an employer engaged in the partnership\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebe34ee874a54bea93c199580f8022b1\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c41f3b9e0f949f390495e368b8ebc22\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: You can laugh about this but New Zealand On Air made it very clear that there had to be a partnership. Just ask Winston Peters; he talks about it all the time. So that\u2019s why I\u2019m bringing this to the table. Has the Minister thought about the implications in terms of the partnership with M\u0101ori and the Treaty implications here? This is all connected, and personal grievances and the Treaty and the relationship are connected. Has the Minister thought about her response to the Treaty implications?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022c21b7c5ec4b74e178827a4dcdf027087\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c21b7c5ec4b74e178827a4dcdf027087\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: I call Grant McCallum. Let\u2019s hope you read this out right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022 data-id=\u0022c00e703c1f4a4f12800839342a433e80\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c00e703c1f4a4f12800839342a433e80\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002295b471647cb545c8854c9685ac35f23e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220aec6e3e5a4849e09f1c259d77688ae2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003Es tabled amendment inserting new clause 6 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u002220872361dcb44c02b06db01568b1e683\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002220872361dcb44c02b06db01568b1e683\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Ginny Andersen\u2019\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001476\u0022\u003EBill to be reported without amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001477\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022944f9da24a624bcfbaf9416eb364b83c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022944f9da24a624bcfbaf9416eb364b83c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The committee has considered the Employment Relations (Trial Periods) Amendment Bill and reports it without amendment. I move, That the report be adopted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022edea7fa652f94711883ecd542f63bad6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022edea7fa652f94711883ecd542f63bad6\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for third reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a7592162fc0c42248733049946801029\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022 data-id=\u0022f65d2e0487af439e847e077f8e972943\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f65d2e0487af439e847e077f8e972943\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Employment Relations (Trial Periods) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EThe Employment Relations (Trial Periods) Amendment Bill extends the availability of the 90-day trial periods to all employers, repealing the Government\u2019s policy that restricted it to just small and medium sized businesses. Under the current law, only employers with fewer than 20 employees can have the option of a trial period for up to 90 days within their employment agreements, and this Government is extending that provision to all employers. That will make a huge difference because larger businesses employ around 72 percent of all employees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EThis Government has inherited a very bleak economic outlook and it\u2019s of utmost importance that we give businesses certainty and confidence for the new year so that both employees and employers can hit the new year with certainty about the labour market, but, more importantly, that employers have confidence to give a new employee a fair go. So we\u2019re wasting no time in making sure that we have changed the law before Christmas so that both employers and employees can keep their heads above water.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EIt doesn\u2019t matter to this Government whether an employer has two or 200 employees. Every new employee that\u2019s taken on is taken on with risk. It takes time, it takes money, and it takes energy. There\u2019s a lot of relationship building, and both people want that relationship to work. We want an employment environment where people are the right fit for the right job, and we believe, as a Government, that this law will allow for employers to take a chance on more employees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EApart from the cost of the dismissal process, retaining an employee who is a poor fit is not just costly to the business in terms of the dismissal process, but costly in terms of the whole culture of that workplace. Any employee\u2014just one person\u2014can really have a detrimental impact on everybody in that employment process. So we\u2019re wanting to make sure that when it comes to that workplace, that we\u2019re not seeing companies be less productive than they could be because of a poorly fitting employee. That\u2019s because the costs and risks associated with dismissal can lead to a labour market with fewer employment opportunities, especially for those trying to get a foot in the door.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EThis issue of 90-day trials for small and medium or larger sized companies has been well canvassed through Parliament through the history of this institution. But we have heard from businesses, time and time again, that expanding the availability of their 90-day trials is one of their top priorities. It will help lift unnecessary regulation. It will help business owners across the New Zealand economy, which will help more job opportunities for employers, which will help employees and help their families and help all of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EThis bill is intended to encourage employers to take on new staff by reducing risks in the hiring process. It\u2019s not particularly the case where employees\u2014sorry, it\u2019s getting a bit late. This is particularly the case where employers are considering employing someone that does not tick all the boxes in terms of their skills and experience, but they might have the right attitude. So I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002242c44cd215844c77ba99baf224a7d834\u0022\u003EPersonal Explanations\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a9d797b25b634622890b1ff28460e9eb\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u2014Question No. 1 to Minister, 13 December\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u0022b43452b07e714316b25d0539a7c9a9ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b43452b07e714316b25d0539a7c9a9ae\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Green\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. I seek leave of the House to make a personal explanation regarding question time on Wednesday, 13 December. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd78002226244e5892de059a572c042d\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297c728a7b2254fa695f36dc2575c6eec\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK\u003C/span\u003E: During question time on Wednesday, 13 December, I made comments intended to challenge the content of the Prime Minister\u2019s answer to oral question No. 1. I can understand how this statement could be interpreted to be a personal reflection against the Prime Minister. It was not my intention to make a personal reflection on the Prime Minister in this House, and to that effect I apologise to this House. I recognise that that should have happened at the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f34bea9d6c4a49e39c2ceeaa337b31cb\u0022\u003EEmployment Relations (Trial Periods) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022786dcca8157047ef8d3d66abacc7d6bf\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001498\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022a671b4c53363414594c1b9eb57b246cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a671b4c53363414594c1b9eb57b246cb\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Well, here we are at 20 to 12 on the same day that this bill was brought to the House, under urgency, removing again\u2014the second week in a row\u2014fundamental rights of working people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223522084113f1476f80d6a0ffa06197d9\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Shameful!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a34cc374a67414c9cfb5e2487a14223\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s absolutely shameful of this Government to prioritise taking away rights to natural justice for the majority of New Zealand employees through this piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s been quite a few comments on where this new Government is going. One of the common themes has been backwards, and there isn\u2019t a clearer example than in this particular bill. This particular bill that the Government intends to pass tonight, but maybe they won\u2019t quite get there, is exactly the same as a bill that was passed in 2011\u2014exactly the same. Where\u2019s the vision? Where\u2019s the learning? Where\u2019s the looking at evidence to see if this policy actually works? Where\u2019s the consideration of how New Zealand has changed in 2023? It\u2019s absolutely nowhere to be found in this piece of legislation. There is no vision about how a 2023 labour market is different from the labour market in 2011. If you just think about the technological changes, if you just think about how the world has moved on, you will realise how ridiculous that is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EWe talked a lot in this debate about red tape. That\u2019s what we heard from the other side. The Minister just said in her short contribution\u2014I note all of her contributions have been extremely short, because she has nothing good to say about this bill, because there isn\u2019t anything good to say. She calls the natural justice rights of employees to ask their employer why they were dismissed, to ask to be treated fairly, to ask for natural justice\u2014she calls that red tape. I think that\u2019s shameful. The right and access to justice is not red tape; it is a human right, and a lot of these things which are repealed through trial periods are actually human rights as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EShe didn\u2019t have a lot of answers to our questions. We asked a lot of questions in the committee of the whole House stage and we were left with nothing. I asked about the contradiction, which I wonder if her colleagues are aware of, where people on accredited employer work visas are not covered by trial periods, but New Zealanders working here already are covered by trial periods, effectively giving people on those visas more access to rights than people here. I wonder if she has explained those differentiations to her colleagues and I wonder whether they in fact support that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EWe also asked her questions about the benefits system. Would people who are dismissed\u2014and there will be, make no mistake, more people dismissed because of the law that this coalition Government is passing; more people dismissed and not told why. So would they be entitled to some kind of support? What do we expect to happen to these people? All employees in the whole country are now covered by trial periods. What do we expect when they lose their jobs? We were not given any answers. We were told she\u2019s not responsible for that, so she doesn\u2019t know. Is that good enough? I don\u2019t personally think that\u2019s good enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThere is no evidence for this particular piece of legislation. The world has moved on. Just like the fair pay agreements legislation that we were discussing only last week, there seems to be no recognition from this coalition Government of actual studies and evidence about workplace legislation and how effective it is or not. And in this case it\u2019s not effective.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI want to take a moment just to thank the officials who have worked here, who have been here until 11.30 at night; the staff in Parliament who have been here through to 11.30 at night\u2014quarter to 12 now\u2014helping Parliament to debate this under urgency for no reason. The Minister has not given us a reason as to why this needs to go through urgency, why it\u2019s so important that it has to happen under urgency, and with no select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI have read, in the previous readings, points that people have wanted to raise if there was a select committee process, but they\u2019ve been unable to do that, and I just say again that an electoral mandate does not justify bad lawmaking\u2014an electoral mandate does not justify bad lawmaking. I have not heard a single argument on the other side to justify why you couldn\u2019t have a select\u2014Christopher Bishop said you were going to have one, and now we\u2019re not having one. Why? Where are the answers to these important questions? We certainly didn\u2019t get them from the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI thanked the officials, but I also want to thank them for their sage advice that has been included on the regulatory impact statement. I want to take a moment to read this important clause. This is the conclusion in the regulatory impact statement: \u201CWe therefore consider that there are diminishing benefits from increasing the availability of trial periods to larger employers (from 89 percent of employers under the status quo to 100 percent of employers) and that this would not outweigh the costs of insecurity to a greater number of employees.\u201D That is right\u2014that is 100 percent correct. This is not radical thinking; this is sage thinking based on evidence, and there is no evidence that extending these trial periods works. It\u2019s a step backward and it will simply make people more insecure in their work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI also want to mention something else that has been mentioned a lot in this debate but perhaps hasn\u2019t been given the exact attention it deserves so far, and that\u2019s the study that Motu Research did after they were commissioned by Treasury. They found that 90-day trial periods, in terms of their objectives, have little effect. So it\u2019s not helping anyone to do this. In terms of the macro scale in New Zealand, there is no impact of 90-day trial periods. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EWe need to look at this research and we need to see what the research has found. The main researcher, Isabelle Sin, who\u2019s done a huge amount of research into employer\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297418121c30445988c150e2d1eb096ea\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: She\u2019s awesome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022045cd304fc6842a8a5abefe5ee84126a\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, she is awesome. She said, \u201CMy research shows that the 90-day trial period isn\u2019t helping people get jobs.\u201D It isn\u2019t helping people get jobs. This is the justification we have been given for this bill, and the researcher who did an actual study into it says it doesn\u2019t help people get jobs. So why are we extending it? Why? Why does this coalition Government hate working people? Why does the Government hate them? I don\u2019t understand why you would extend a policy that doesn\u2019t work. It doesn\u2019t give more people jobs. That is what the research shows. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll tell you what it does do. This particular bill, for individual people, will be devastating. And I want to spend a moment just talking about that, because a lot of people, especially on this side of the House\u2014and I\u2019m sure maybe on the other side of the House too; I don\u2019t know\u2014they come to this place to make a difference, and one of the main reasons that we want to do that is we want to make a difference to people who face injustice. My colleague Jan Tinetti gave the most convincing reason for that when she made a contribution in the committee of the whole House stage. She had had someone that she knew in her life who had been dismissed under a trial period and they had tragically taken their own life. It\u2019s not a joke. It\u2019s a real story. It\u2019s tragic. Everyone in this House agrees with that, and I don\u2019t pretend to think that anyone else would say anything else about that situation. The reason that we have to take these decisions so seriously is these are the type of impacts that can occur when we take away rights from people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI have a previous career as an employment lawyer, and I saw how important jobs were to people. Jobs are part of self-esteem. They\u2019re part of how you identify yourself, how you find your place in the world, who you are. For many people, their identity as a human being is tied to the work that they do. To make it possible and to extend a policy that just doesn\u2019t work for the objectives that this Government wants it to achieve, so that more people are in the situation where they may lose their job for no good reason and have no recourse\u2014it is just a terrible policy to be putting on New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ELet me tell you, every member of this House should be aware that you will soon get stories about trial periods. More and more people will be using them and more and more New Zealanders will be coming to your office and saying, \u201CI was treated unfairly, and for some reason I\u2019m told that there\u2019s nothing I can do.\u201D That is an absolute travesty and it\u2019s an absolute tragedy, and we\u2019re all going to have to look hard at the Parliament that we\u2019re in at the moment that is passing this regressive law and justify to them why they don\u2019t have any recourse to challenge unfairness. That is going to be something that everyone in this House is going to have to address. I don\u2019t look forward to it. I think it\u2019s going to be a sad day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo I think this is a terrible bill. I think it takes New Zealand backwards, and I do not commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022914786e83eeb4102a8074b9f83e68774\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022914786e83eeb4102a8074b9f83e68774\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Ninety-day trials are hurting workers, and the extension of 90-day trials to larger businesses will hurt workers even more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThe previous speaker, Camilla Belich, was very generous in presenting to the Minister and to the members of the Government the evidence as to why 90-day trials have not resulted in higher wages, have not resulted in greater retention of workers, and have hurt people. I think it was very generous because it\u2019s almost like we\u2019re pretending the Minister doesn\u2019t know. It\u2019s almost like we\u2019re insulting the Minister\u2019s intelligence by assuming that she didn\u2019t know any of this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThe Minister knows\u2014she does not care. She came into Government to undermine workers\u2019 rights. She came to Government to serve the interests of big businesses, and this bill is a statement of the Government\u2019s intent to lower working conditions, to have a low-wage economy, and to put workers in a vulnerable position where employers are able to dismiss them at will in those first 90 days, without an ability to take that in a way that allows for justice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThroughout the committee of the whole House debate, the Minister was unable to substantiate her arguments. She spoke in platitudes about how this will increase the flexibility in the labour market without actually speaking about the direct material outcomes that these workers will have as a result of this policy. The members opposite to me, all they could do, instead of taking calls in the speech, they just clap like seals to a nothing speech from the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EOur communities deserve far more than a Government that is hell-bent on ramming through legislation that will hurt our workers\u2014the same workers that serve them at the cafes, the same workers that serve them at the restaurants, the workers that serve the hotels when they travel around the country to do their mahi. But they do not care, because these members did not come to this Chamber to serve the workers; they came to serve the interests of businesses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ESo, as we look forward, the Greens will continue fighting to put forward amendments to this legislation to expose the truth, which is: we gave the opportunity to the Minister to put in place reporting mechanisms. Because if the Minister was so confident that this bill would have resulted in better outcomes for workers, she would have not been afraid of having those reported. Because she claimed, and the members of the Government claimed that this Government was founded and was built to honour the facts and the evidence and the latest available research. But let\u2019s face it: that is not a commitment that is being put into action, because the Minister could only speak in platitudes; could only speak in vague terms when she talked about the future work she may or may not do to ensure that there\u2019s information gathering.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ebb5d09ccfb4b4eb711f88c4ce9d16f\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s all vibes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230d38b57c51b4712b9e99351b8de4c53\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: So it is all vibes, but it is more than just vibes: it\u2019s cruel, neo-liberal, already-proven-to-not-be-true vibes, and our workers do not deserve this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EWhat we are creating is a condition where we\u2019re not setting up young people to succeed. We\u2019re not creating the conditions where those young people going into their first job are supported to succeed. We\u2019re creating the conditions where young people going to their first job can be dismissed at will without any reason for them to even\u2014if they had an issue that they genuinely had to resolve, we\u2019re not going to give them the opportunity to genuinely give them that recourse. Something that we actually did try to negotiate with the Minister, but she wasn\u2019t even willing to meet us in the middle. Because, again, she knows what she is doing. She knows that she came here to hurt workers\u2019 interests, and throughout the committee of the whole House, she has proven all of that to be true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d107d4db64b416ebe4eb8b055fcf2d0\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, she\u2019s cruel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a51b870d21c4eafa465252503760955\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the Minister is cruel. The policies are cruel, and it is a bit of a change of tune, right? We had what we called the \u201Cpolitics of kindness\u201D, and the Greens were always quite clear that the politics of kindness needed to be matched with changes into material realities. But this Government has done a full 180 and has now instilled the politics of cruelness and the politics of greed\u2014and this bill, again, speaks to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI want to mihi to the workers who, as they change employment, will now be subjected to this policy. I want to assure those workers that the Green Party will be here to listen to the experiences of those workers who are now undergoing 90-day trials in larger businesses. I want to honour the contributions of countless workers who made submissions back when the 90-day trials were being clawed back, who made submissions to remind us that 90-day trials were not working.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve already heard the voices of workers. The Minister is not interested in hearing the voices of workers. She thinks that she can justify poor policy making, poor lawmaking, poor process because it\u2019s in the coalition agreement. But let me tell you what: there\u2019s a reason why we have these processes. It\u2019s so that we can\u2019t hurt our communities through just going through the whim of a paper that was signed by three parties that all they want to do is serve the interests of businesses and the service of workers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EAs I have this privilege of taking the last call of the night, I want to remind the members that as they go forward and debate these issues in relationship to the workers, they may want to consider adding some substance to their words. I listened very carefully to the contributions they made\u2014and sure, some of them may have been in a rush to go back home to spend time with family over the holiday period, and some of them will get a holiday period with family and friends. But those workers who are now going to be subject to those policies, they\u2019re going to be subjected to potentially feeling they\u2019re going to have to work longer hours and be subjected to strenuous conditions over the Christmas break\u2014and the summer period\u2014particularly as this policy comes into place. Because if they don\u2019t take these strenuous conditions, they could just be fired at will with no good reason.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EOne of the other things we tried to put as an amendment was the ability to make it clear that employers would have had to add justification, to add a reason at least that they were dismissing those workers in a 90-day trial. We thought that was a reasonable thing for the Minister to take up because, once again, if the Minister is so confident that when there\u2019s not a good match, 90-day trials are a way to actually get rid of those workers that are not a good match, then there is nothing to hide. Those employers should give a reason to those workers, and she didn\u2019t even want to compromise in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThose amendments were not for us to be happy with a middle position. They were there to expose the Minister\u2019s intentions, but she was not interested in any of the evidence. This was not at all about reaching a sort of middle ground with the Minister: this was about showing the Minister her own true colours of greed, of her inability to see workers in the face. I hope that our workers confront the Minister throughout the term for her decisions; that they are able to tell her directly what impact this policy is having on them, because she clearly was not interested in hearing this through a select committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ELook, I finally just want to pay tribute to our union movement, who\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022448968836cf045178a79cc21c77b2aa1\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Of course you do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a80308b530684f17b46553845e47f4c6\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: And of course we do, because this side of the House supports our workers, Because that side of the House only wants to listen to the business interests. That side of the House, at no point in the debate talked about workers\u2014the people who actually build their economy, the people who actually create the profits of the employers that talk about the people who are foundational to our society. The employers that the people on the Government\u2019s side talk about should be reminded that without their workers, they are nothing\u2014without their workers, they would have no profits. And they should be careful, because the more they undermine workers\u2019 rights, the more they\u2019re eroding social cohesion, and the more they\u2019re creating a situation by eroding social cohesion, we\u2019re continuing to have discontent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThey themselves are manufacturing a crisis of inequality by keeping wages low, by preventing working conditions from improving, and the next time they talk about their concerns about social cohesion\u2014and I hear the next lot of National Party members making maiden speeches about their concerns about discrimination and racism and inequality\u2014they need to remember that it was their parties who created the conditions for those things to happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThe Green Party will continue fighting throughout the term against the politics of cruelty. All the snarky comments that this side may make can\u2019t hide the fact that they have no substance to add to this bill. All they had to add to this bill was snark. It was baseless arguments, and yet they\u2019re quite willing to put in the energy to go until midnight to add their pettiness to the debate instead of being able to put the facts into this place. The Green Party will fight this till the very, very bitter end.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u002210802d0b417a4e1c951f02854acd963b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002210802d0b417a4e1c951f02854acd963b\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is suspended until 9 a.m. this morning. Haere ki te moe. P\u014D m\u0101rie.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 12.01 midnight to 9 a.m. (Thursday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2023121900ba29cea4ce4ef1b587d438dfdbe78e001542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c7be650436a1455798218aced63f6411\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 19 DECEMBER 2023\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227421f1778e83421aa65a1412aa38855a\u0022\u003E(continued on 21 December 2023)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227b949cbfcbfc4dc390927f294a3bf96a\u0022\u003EEmployment Relations (Trial Periods) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226238172cab1748c8a32ac11f33bdf7cc\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000005\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222ab0079d139c42e880c2819422363445\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s great to be speaking on the Employment Relations (Trial Periods) Amendment Bill in its third reading. I want to make it clear that the 90-day trial already exists and what we\u2019re seeking to ensure is that businesses can make use of it\u2014all businesses. Much of what was raised by members opposite shows it\u2019s clearly their intention to call into question the entire Act, not just the extension of this from small and medium businesses to all businesses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022 data-id=\u00228ff31654f58f4918b8a4b61464499a4a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ff31654f58f4918b8a4b61464499a4a\u0022\u003EKATIE NIMON (National\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022\u003ENow is not the time to be debating the merits of the trial itself but simply the difference between large and small to medium sized businesses and its application. Had we not introduced the repeal bill, medium businesses, of which there are many, would be disproportionately affected. Medium business are businesses that are neither small nor large and don\u2019t have the budget to have HR departments, as members opposite speak to, so why is it that they should be excluded? This extension bill includes medium business and large businesses and the extension of the 90-day trial is simply to include them, but members opposite are debating the purpose of the 90-day trial in its entirety. It is simply an extension.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022\u003ESo the importance of amending the legislation to extend it to all employers is great, but we are not required to discuss the importance of the 90-day trial itself. We wish to extend 90-day trials to all employers, not just small businesses, and that is what we are here to support. So, with that, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022 data-id=\u0022f219173a67aa4befa234cf925c15bfcf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f219173a67aa4befa234cf925c15bfcf\u0022\u003EHon MARK PATTERSON (Minister for Rural Communities):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First also rises to support extending the availability of 90-day trials. New Zealand First has always been in favour of these 90-day trials. We think they do add flexibility in the labour market. They do give employers the opportunity to take a punt on an employee that they may not be 100 percent sure on. It does give better opportunities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EWhat I did want to say, though\u2014really, because this is something that I had something to do with in the last term in Parliament when we were in coalition with the Labour Party\u2014is that we actually fought really hard to keep these 90-day trials for businesses with under 20 workers, which is the issue here at play. For those hearty souls that are watching this morning for the gripping finale of this debate, and had been watching, through to midnight last night, the protestations and the dire predictions and the desperate virtue signallings from the Labour Party, the 90-day trials already exist for businesses with fewer than 20 employees. The Labour Party had three years with an absolute majority to take these mechanisms out but absolutely refused to. So if they are such a travesty to the working New Zealander\u2014those New Zealanders in bakeries and dairies and local cafes are already subject to this legislation or this mechanism. The other thing I would be really tempted to do is a few Official Information Act (OIA) requests.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EWere the Green Party lobbying behind the scenes and protesting to their Labour colleagues who had an absolute majority, who they were in confidence and supply with? Were they appealing? Were they appealing? I hope they were\u2014I hope they were. Because the record will show that they, within that governing arrangement, failed to convince their colleagues that this was a travesty and should be repealed. Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori, who, I\u2019m sure, will get up and rail against this in the following speech\u2014what did they do? Did they appeal? Is there OIAs there that would show that sort of course of action from Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori to suggest that they were so concerned about the 90-day trials that they would like to see them repealed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003ESo New Zealand First see this\u2014and always has\u2014as a very sensible mechanism and balance between employees and employers, and continues to support this bill. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022966c58b970a444f9aed7fdeef1be6eb9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022966c58b970a444f9aed7fdeef1be6eb9\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: A five-minute split call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022 data-id=\u00228a6d47ae174d49b68269f7810ea8cd0a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a6d47ae174d49b68269f7810ea8cd0a\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, kia ora. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou. E te P\u012Bka, t\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 koe. M\u0101tika ake nei au ki te whakaara i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero a te iwi M\u0101ori m\u014D t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 pire i t\u0113nei p\u0101nuitanga tuatoru \u014Dna. Otir\u0101 ki ng\u0101 pire katoa kua panangia nei i roto i te w\u0101 iti, me t\u0101 r\u0101tou p\u0101nga ngau kino nei ki runga i te tuar\u0101 o te iwi M\u0101ori, t\u0113nei r\u0101 te whakatairanga ake. N\u014D reira ka tau h\u0101, whakatau ko te rangi e t\u016B iho nei. Ka tau h\u0101, whakatau ko te papa e takoto ake nei.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E[Yes, thank you Mr Speaker. Greetings, hello. Greetings to all of us. Mr Speaker, thank you. I rise to heighten the opinions of the M\u0101ori people about this bill in its third reading. Indeed about all the bills that have been pushed through in a short time, and their impacts that very adversely affect the M\u0101ori people, those that are being elevated here. So welcome, welcome the sky that stands above. Welcome, welcome the land that lies here.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EAs usual, it is te ao M\u0101ori, the M\u0101ori people, the tangata whenua of this land, our Pasifika whanaunga, our rangatahi, our wh\u0101nau hau\u0101 who will bear the brunt of this Government\u2019s anti-wh\u0101nau, anti - Te Tiriti o Waitangi policies and policy-making procedures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0a0911fdcd64409b0af2e4d046516d8\u0022\u003EHelen White\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. We can\u2019t hear anything and I don\u2019t think there\u2019s a translator, and I am actually very keen to hear the whole speech. So I wondered if there could be an extra time given, and perhaps the speaker given the option of telling us what he said so that we are able to listen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0ead3cbfaea479d9ecc92c749b5c470\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: All right, we\u2019ll add a minute on, and if the speaker is happy to do his own translation of that, that\u2019s at his own discretion. Are you happy to do that? We\u2019ll add a minute on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022456ba45495194af08351cc5330334840\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou. The opening was just as most everyone\u2019s opening was, just a formal way to introduce this k\u014Drero to the Whare. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003ESo kia hoki an\u014D au ki ng\u0101 k\u014Drero nei e mea ana. This Government is continuing the age-old colonial practice of treating tangata whenua as second-class citizens in our own country; akin to the treatment that our koroua who went and fought in the Second World War, in Te Hokowhitu a T\u016B, received when they returned to Aotearoa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EThis policy, unequivocally, will make life worse for M\u0101ori and anyone else who doesn\u2019t conform to the general stream, the tikanga P\u0101keh\u0101 stream, in Aotearoa. It will allow employers to fire their workers with absolute impunity, treating people as products that can be discarded and repurchased every 90 days merely to cut the costs of providing secure employment such as annual leave, training, redundancy. We all know this to be true. It\u2019s clear to me that this side of the Whare has no capacity and, more alarmingly, no will to apply any form of Tiriti analysis across their party\u2019s policies. It\u2019s also glaringly obvious that they have no evidence base of the historical impacts and ramifications of policies like this one on to iwi M\u0101ori\u2014and there has been decades of experience to demonstrate it\u2014showing a blatant disregard of the Government\u2019s obligation to provide active protection in all areas, including economic activity, for their Tiriti partner. No regard for mana \u014Drite in the living standards of wh\u0101nau. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EThe fact that they are willing and indeed eager to push this bill through, and many others, in the last two weeks without any consideration or regard to their Tiriti partner\u2014in 2023, 48 years after the establishment of the Waitangi Tribunal, whose aspiration was to right the societal imbalance between the partners\u2014is, quite frankly, unacceptable. It\u2019s unacceptable, and I\u2019m 100 percent sure that the recoil from te ao M\u0101ori will be swift, it will be determined, and it will be on a scale that Aotearoa has never seen before. And my advice to this side of the Whare\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218abd8bcd73b41b788e0728ee71ebbda\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: Fearmongering. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226912c899a3814583829b318906b9b472\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS\u003C/span\u003E: My advice to you, e hoa, is to be sure that you\u2019re here when they arrive and that you\u2019re ready to stand up and explain yourself, and I hope that before that time happens, the Government have acquired a clear understanding of what their role and responsibility to Te Tiriti o Waitangi is, what their role and responsibility to the Crown\u2019s Tiriti partner is, and are capable and happy to articulate it, because to be here at this early stage of the game, so willing to show no regard to consult, no commitment to evidence\u2014M\u0101ori evidence, any evidence base\u2014no capacity to apply any Tiriti-based analysis across these policies, if this is their starting point, then it\u2019s going to be a long three years indeed for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EN\u014D reira ka hoki atu ahau ki te whakap\u016Brua i te moko o Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori e mea nei, e mea ake ana ki a koutou: m\u0101 te iwi an\u014D te iwi M\u0101ori e whakaora. Kua roa ia e tahuri kanohi mai ki t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 Whare me te whakawhiwhi ki ng\u0101 hua, kore, kore, rawa kore. Kore rawa atu! T\u0113nei o ng\u0101 Whare me \u014Dna m\u0101ngai k\u012Bhai i \u0101hei ki te whakahua i te kupu M\u0101ori tika, ki te kawe i te reo M\u0101ori kia tika, ki te hiki ake i te hoka taringa kia whakarongo ki ng\u0101 k\u014Drero M\u0101ori ka tae ki t\u0113nei Whare. Me taku m\u014Dhio, me te whakahau ki a koutou, ka \u0101kina \u014D koutou taringa ki te reo M\u0101ori ao te p\u014D, p\u014D te ao, toru tau, pau te kaha. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E[So I will return to emphasise what Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori is saying, saying to all of you: the M\u0101ori people will restore the M\u0101ori people to health. For a long time, they have been turning their faces to this House to receive some benefit, nothing, nothing, destitution. Absolutely nothing! This House and its representatives that have not the ability to correctly pronounce M\u0101ori words, to accurately convey the M\u0101ori language, to raise the earpiece to listen to the M\u0101ori statements that come to this House. And I realise, and I urge you, your ears will continue to be assaulted by the M\u0101ori language all day, all night, for three years, to the limits of my strength.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EN\u014D reira, I reiterate: Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori vehemently reject and oppose this bill, this anti-worker, anti-wh\u0101nau, anti-mokopuna, anti - Te Tiriti o Waitangi bill. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229fa9132b-a783-45c9-8207-a84b9bc03e22\u0022 data-id=\u0022b994e207efd5466a9bbaeba33a6937b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa9132b-a783-45c9-8207-a84b9bc03e22\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b994e207efd5466a9bbaeba33a6937b2\u0022\u003EFA\u2019AN\u0100N\u0100 EFESO COLLINS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Malo le soifua manuia i lau afioga le Ta\u02BBita\u02BBi fono. Greetings, Mr Speaker. I\u2019m really excited this morning, not about this bill but definitely about this being my first contribution to the House. I can see that my friends over the hall there are very excited too, so I\u2019m going to enjoy the next five minutes. Sir, congratulations to you, again, for being reappointed to your role in the Speaker\u2019s Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa9132b-a783-45c9-8207-a84b9bc03e22\u0022\u003EToday I think we begin the journey to nowhere. This being my first contribution to the House, I was thinking, \u201CI\u2019m so excited about speaking to the House.\u201D I came here thinking, \u201CWow, I\u2019m standing for Te P\u0101ti K\u0101k\u0101riki because we can make a difference. We\u2019re going to stand up for workers, we\u2019re going to stand up for businesses too.\u201D, but what have we got? What have we got? We\u2019ve got the reintroduction of these 90-day bills that do nothing for our young people, that take away the aspirations of our young people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa9132b-a783-45c9-8207-a84b9bc03e22\u0022\u003EThese are the people who went out and said, \u201CWe\u2019re about aspirations; we\u2019re about a future.\u201D A few years ago, they were talking about a brighter future, and look at where they\u2019ve got us. Absolutely nowhere. Today, we\u2019re back in the same spot where we\u2019re telling our young people there is no future because you\u2019re always going to be on trial. This sounds like your corrections policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa9132b-a783-45c9-8207-a84b9bc03e22\u0022\u003EYou see, what we\u2019ve got to do is stand up for our young people. I used to work at the University of Auckland. We used to say it was New Zealand\u2019s premier university, great university, and where we graduated with my friends here, sitting to my left\u2014to my left; hear the beauty of that; to my left. One of the things we used to do\u2014my role was to go out into predominantly low-decile schools and encourage young people to think about the world of work, that beyond school they\u2019d be able to go to work and earn money and support their families, eh? But now they\u2019re always going to be, according to the Minister, who spoke last night and said, \u201CWell, they might not tick all the boxes.\u201D Oh my goodness, imagine\u2014imagine\u2014ticking nine of the 10 boxes and then after 90 days they say, \u201CNa, na, na, get out. We want someone with the 10th.\u201D Goodness gracious me! What kind of theory is that? That\u2019s not going to help anybody. This is giving our young people, our future, absolutely no assurance whatsoever that there is a future for them in work. You\u2019re not giving us the brighter future; this is dark and dim and harsh and horrible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa9132b-a783-45c9-8207-a84b9bc03e22\u0022\u003EI encourage you to look in the mirror. [Interruption] I know you\u2019re getting excited. I know you\u2019re getting excited. So am I, because your contributions are not adding to the future of our young people. In fact, you\u2019re stealing our future. The Grinch of Christmas has arrived, eh? The Grinch of Christmas has arrived, and they\u2019re all looking at me now thinking, \u201CIf only I chose to stand for the Green Party\u201D, rather than where you are today, taking away our hope. Let\u2019s see what Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE) had to say, because you\u2019re so driven by evidence! I can see it; I can see it right now: you\u2019re driven by evidence! Let\u2019s see what MBIE says. \u201CWe consider that the main impacts\u201D\u2014and we\u2019ve heard this before, so I\u2019ve got to reiterate it, because I don\u2019t think people are hearing; I don\u2019t think people are really opening their minds to this discussion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa9132b-a783-45c9-8207-a84b9bc03e22\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m going to invite you just to pause for a moment. Open your minds. Open your hearts to the young people you\u2019re telling today that there\u2019s no future and work for them. \u201CWe consider,\u201D says MBIE, \u201Cthat the main impacts of the 90-day trial policy are perceived insecurity for employees who are on a trial period and reduced costs for employers that choose to dismiss\u201D\u2014they choose to dismiss\u2014\u201Can employee on a trial period.\u201D Is this the future you want? Shame! \u201CWe consider\u201D, says MBIE\u2014this is the department you\u2019re about to gut\u2014\u201CWe consider\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283574cf2d5294ee4922f61a284271a0f\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Collins. Very liberal use of the word \u201Cyou\u201D. You are speaking through the Chair and through the Chair to whoever you are addressing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa9132b-a783-45c9-8207-a84b9bc03e22\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9765b14aa7a4128a224bf3709b22975\u0022\u003EFA\u2019AN\u0100N\u0100 EFESO COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: My friends opposing me, consider this: \u201CWe consider\u201D, say MBIE\u2014and I apologise for that, Mr Speaker\u2014\u201Cthat smaller employers are more likely to benefit from trial periods because they are less able to absorb the costs of a poor match or dismissal. In comparison, larger employers can be \u2026 equipped to manage any dismissal processes and absorb [those] costs. We consider that the option to extend trial periods to employers with fewer than 100 employees may lead to greater uncertainty than \u2026 other options.\u201D This is deplorable. It\u2019s deplorable because we\u2019re taking away people\u2019s ability to be able to negotiate and say, \u201CThis is what I want.\u201D Instead, what we\u2019re going to do is create fear, and that\u2019s not the future that we want, so I do not commend this, because it is nothing but hopeless and poor and terribly thought through. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022 data-id=\u00225dd60053e2fc4ea8bb991d14a720c04e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225dd60053e2fc4ea8bb991d14a720c04e\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E This is a great Christmas. We go into Christmas this year with a Government that is for all New Zealanders\u2014employers and employees\u2014a Government that believes in providing opportunities for businesses to grow and create economic growth, to have the confidence that it is the right time to take on another an employee, and to employees to put their best foot forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003EI look forward to seeing the success and the opportunities provided to both employers and employees at both the Whanganui Regional Business Awards in 2024 and at the 2025 Te Manu Atat\u016B Ma\u014Dri Business Awards, because this bill supports both, and I commend this bill, the Employment Relations (Trial Periods) Amendment Bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u002259c0820954d64557b6cba6fbd2799b54\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002259c0820954d64557b6cba6fbd2799b54\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E On the first day of Christmas, the far-right race-baiting Government gave to me a kick in the guts to the workers. We\u2019re making union-busting bosses jolly. They are a disgrace\u2014they are a disgrace. It was lovely to hear Efeso Collins\u2014beautiful. We had high hopes for him but he swapped sides, but kei te pai. We had high hopes for him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EThe question\u2019s got to be asked today: what was the price here? What was the price in terms of this legislation? Well, let\u2019s kill 5,000 more people a year in terms of the smoke-free legislation. That stands out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222be435741bb146e4a849fda37e649f20\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Surprise, surprise!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ec0951ec66b4a15a8db372c85d49fd2\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: No, that\u2019s a fact. Dr Duncan Webb knows. We\u2019ll kill 5,000 more people to keep our rich mates happy so we can give our rich mates their tax cuts, yes. That is the price in terms of this legislation. Oh, and we\u2019ll beat the M\u0101oris. We\u2019ll kick all the M\u0101oris out, but we\u2019ve got two or three with us so\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfb0ae4b719540338d16fb80561d7fc4\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Jackson, if you\u2019re going to be provocative, be provocative on the bill we\u2019re talking about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba8e740b79c543f7bd5d6eefa5e1f1da\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker, but it\u2019s all related, Mr Speaker. This anti-worker agenda has already been tried by National and ACT\u2014already been tried with their 90-day trials. And the research from 2016 commissioned by Treasury clearly states\u2014we\u2019ve said this several times\u2014that there\u2019s no evidence that the ability to use trial periods significantly increases firms\u2019 overall hiring and no evidence that the policy increased the probability that a new hire by a firm was a disadvantaged job seeker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EThere you go. How many times has our great spokesperson Camilla Belich said this? How many times do you have to get it through their thick heads? I say that with all respect, of course. What did the Treasury commissioned research find? No evidence that the ability to use trial periods significantly increases firms\u2019 overall hiring. Adding to that, the Treasury commissioned research into National and ACT\u2019s previous 90-day trials concluded that the main benefit of the 90-day trial policy was a decrease in dismissal costs for firms while many employees faced increased uncertainty about their job security for three months after being hired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003ESo this law is not about helping workers; it\u2019s about helping big business exploit those workers. That\u2019s what this is about. These are the friends of the National Party. These are the friends of the ACT Party. They want to just placate them, look after them, and, sadly, so many of these people have forgotten their roots. I look across at the M\u0101ori members; they\u2019re a disgrace to M\u0101oridom\u2014there\u2019s no doubt about it. They sit there. They will be too scared to go back to their tribes this Christmas. They will be too scared because their tribes will tell them to get lost, like they said to David Seymour. He\u2019s been kicked out. OK, I\u2019ll come back to the bill\u2014OK, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003ESo the employment law that this new far-right race-baiting Government are ramming through under urgency, with no public submissions, helps abuse workers for the benefit of bad bosses. We are open to small business under 19 workers having this option, but giant companies will only exploit this law and use it to intimidate and bully workers so that they can pay their fees to the National Party. This is a fact. This is an undeniable fact. The members are always right. FIRST Union general secretary Dennis Maga knows this legislation\u2014good man; good union fighter\u2014will drive wages down and increase unemployment and underemployment. Dennis says putting an extreme libertarian ACT Minister\u2014this is what he said. Have a listen. I\u2019m glad you\u2019re listening. He said that putting an extreme libertarian ACT Minister in charge of workplace relations and safety is like putting a vampire in charge of a country\u2019s emergency blood supply, which is very unfair, of course, because it suggests Minister Brooke van Velden has a heart, and this law-bashing law is clearly the work of a heartless person.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228be6265bc13a47b58b735868267f0e52\u0022\u003ETodd Stephenson\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s unparliamentary, mate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2d7455b8a3840c39d4192638ca595e9\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Ah, shush up, you ACT idiots. OK, this isn\u2019t employment law; it\u2019s extremism\u2014the extremism of the ACT Party, the extremism of New Zealand First, and, sadly, the deterioration and extremism of a National Party who have betrayed their people and succumbed to David Seymour and Winston Peters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s telling that this new legislation, this new far-right race-baiting Government\u2019s attempt, is actually going to hurt ordinary people, going to hurt workers. Enabling bad bosses to cause injustice doesn\u2019t build up a country; it tears it down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s why I\u2019m sad, like good National people like Jim Bolger, who found his roots and principles with the Labour Party; Jenny Shipley, who joins us at Waitangi every year. They\u2019re embarrassed by this lot on the other side. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022310b4c952fb347e9995b624fd685681d\u0022\u003ECameron Brewer\u003C/span\u003E: Rubbish!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3393ae75ad442418d9eb6a3904c12a4\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, they are. You need to ring Jenny up. Well, I don\u2019t know if she told me this but I know she\u2019s going to tell me this one day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003ELabour, the Greens, Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori, we all look after the many. See, we\u2019re all in coalition now, collaboration. Even the M\u0101ori Party says some nice things about us sometimes, you know. We\u2019re here to look after the few and not the many. But here\u2019s the point, the moment a Labour-led Government is returned in 2026, we will change this law\u2014we will change this law. Oh, that\u2019s right. Winston will have a meltdown by then. I say again, many Kiwis are shocked by the extremism of this new Government, and this ongoing attack on workers\u2019 rights will not go unchallenged. This is just the start. We\u2019re just being all nice now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EBut, listen, you wait till workers and M\u0101ori hit the streets. Voters supposedly wanted stability in the form of a National, ACT, and New Zealand First Government. But what they\u2019re getting is an extremist agenda in terms of bashing workers, renters, beneficiaries, the environment, and the M\u0101ori nation. This isn\u2019t a Government; it\u2019s a right-wing revenge fantasy. National are eroding workers\u2019 rights and this policy is focused on benefiting employers rather than employees, giving them more power over our average worker. It\u2019s another example of this new Government\u2019s aversion to evidence-based policy, which has been well traversed particularly by our legal team over here, led by Camilla Belich over here, Helen White, Rachel, Arena Williams. They\u2019ve been so articulate in terms of making it clear. Are we interested in evidence-based policy or do we just create policy for our rich mates in the ACT Party, New Zealand First, and National?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s what this is about. During a cost of living crisis, workers need more protections and better job security, not less. This policy will reduce workers\u2019 sense of job security. This exacerbates the inherent imbalance of power in the employment relationship and makes it harder for workers to secure wages. Together with the Government\u2019s other employment relations reform, this will depress wages and keep New Zealanders locked into low wages. It does nothing to help workers with the cost of living, which is something this other lot has been waffling on about over the last year or two.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003ELower job security will particularly impact M\u0101ori, women, Pasifika, workers. It just goes on and on. Along with the fair pay changes, it\u2019s one of the worst pieces of legislation that\u2019s ever hit our community. It focuses on benefiting employers and the rich mates of the National Party. The sad thing is, given that New Zealand already has one of the most relaxed sets of labour laws in the developed world, 90-day trials will put Kiwi workers at another serious disadvantage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EMr Speaker, I could go on and on, of course, as you well know, but in this last 30 seconds I want to wish everybody a merry Christmas and a happy New Year. You know, even though it\u2019s been a terrible last couple of weeks from the evil Government, I do want to wish them and their wh\u0101nau all the very best. This is what it\u2019s all about. We get up, we contest, we want to, you know, strangle each other, and then we ended up having a beer with some of them last night. So I want to say to them, ng\u0101 mihi ki a koutou. Meri Kirihimete me ng\u0101 mihi o te Tau Hou ki a t\u0101tou katoa. Kia ora. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022 data-id=\u0022843b127e184c476d90ebae07299ad13d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022843b127e184c476d90ebae07299ad13d\u0022\u003EMIKE BUTTERICK (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. You could only but speculate about what they\u2019ve had for breakfast over on the other side of the House there this morning. Perhaps I could actually return to speaking about the Employment Relations (Trial Periods) Amendment Bill. I reiterate that this bill is about creating opportunities\u2014opportunities for both employers and employees, including those that have or have had challenges\u2014providing an opportunity for employment; an opportunity to have purpose; an opportunity for those that may not have the skills, may not have the experience, but want to be given the chance to learn. This bill provides exactly that. Therefore, I\u2019m pleased to support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u0022295cd77a465942fab1282ee764619706\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022295cd77a465942fab1282ee764619706\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I appreciate the opportunity to take a short call on what is a terrible piece of legislation, the Employment Relations (Trial Periods) Amendment Bill. Not only is it a terrible piece of legislation but it is terrible that we are considering this under urgency and without the scrutiny of a select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EDuring the committee stage last night, there were a significant number of questions, many of which were very relevant, particularly those raised by me and my colleague Camilla Belich about the process around an unfair dismissal. I have a prediction, which is that employers will go ahead and use these 90-day trials just like they did the last time it was available to all employers, and they will get it wrong. They will get that process wrong. It\u2019s quite interesting because they\u2019re heckling over there and saying, \u201COh, that\u2019s what they\u2019ll say.\u201D It\u2019s actually what happened last time under the exact same law. So just go and look at the Employment Relations Authority decisions website and you\u2019ll find all the examples. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ESo I predict that we will see employers use it. They will get it wrong, and they will ultimately pay a price. And the winners, with apologies to colleagues on both sides of the House, in all of this will be lawyers. The winners will be lawyers because employers will get it wrong, people will take a case, and we will end up in the same situation we were in last time. It\u2019s all to do with the fact that we didn\u2019t take the proper amount of time to have a scrutiny period through a select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EIn many of the contributions we made, we came back to the real impact that this law has on real working people, and I want to reflect on the contribution made by my colleague Jan Tinetti, which was a far worse example than the example I used from my family member. But I will bring that back again, because my family member was dismissed under a 90-day trial. It happened in the most humiliating of circumstances. He was on day 88 or 89. He had had no issues raised with him. He was taken into the middle of a busy cafe and told to take his knives and leave. He was in his early 20s. That had a real issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EWe talk about mental health a lot in this House and in this country. He ended up in a significant mental health state for a long time\u2014years. The big issue for him in that situation was we had people suggesting that people should just ask their employer why they were sacked, but people fundamentally do not understand the power imbalance in the employment relationship. It just goes to show that people have not actually put themselves in the shoes of other people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EIt was always very interesting\u2014and there are going to be heckles, but whatever\u2014when I worked for a union that one of the things that new managers in supermarkets would often say to me is, \u201CWhy did that person not come and talk to me about this thing they were concerned about?\u201D But the very title \u201Cmanager\u201D meant that a 19-year-old was actually scared of that person. They were scared of that person with the title \u201Cmanager\u201D who was in their 40s or 50s. We have to take ourselves back to when we were kids and we thought, \u201COh, my goodness!\u201D Going to the manager to raise an issue freaked the heck out of me\u2014I mean, my father was a chief executive, and he used to freak the heck out of me when I worked for him briefly. We need to think about these things. There is, as I said in the House last night, in the object of the Act, not a perceived but a very real inherent power imbalance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI believe that this law is inconsistent with the object of the Act, and I\u2019d actually love to see someone take a case on that matter. It would be very interesting to see if they actually said this law is inconsistent with the object of the Act, because there is no process involved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EAnother prediction that was made last night, which I thought was a very good prediction, is that electorate MPs are going to have people coming in who\u2019ve been sacked under these situations, and I as an electorate MP had a number of people come to me about employment matters. It\u2019s a regular type of constituency issue that you\u2019re faced with. So I\u2019ll be very interested to hear what electorate MPs will do when someone comes in and says, \u201COn day 89, I was sacked. I\u2019d been turning up to work on time. I was sacked, and the next day they went and hired someone else because they didn\u2019t want to continue\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4eefa39e269402996be2bc0d63f6ba4\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll meet with them, I\u2019ll engage them\u2014I\u2019ll do my job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022031b870b082b4653b665b93660597a1b\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: Well, good. I hope you\u2019ll help them, and I hope that you\u2019ll properly consider repealing this terrible law that will harm New Zealand workers\u2014our most vulnerable workers\u2014and I do not commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022 data-id=\u0022c57c4228139648b0a3b19e30deba8287\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c57c4228139648b0a3b19e30deba8287\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E I support this bill, the Employment Relations (Trial Periods) Amendment Bill, because this bill does support the workers. The other side of the House talks a lot about the workers, but this bill supports businesses and workers, and I\u2019ll give you an example. I\u2019m the MP for Tukituki. In Tukituki, we are the powerhouse of New Zealand horticulture. Horticulture provides thousands and thousands of jobs, thousands and thousands of opportunities, and this bill is an opportunity to not only grow our economy; it creates opportunities for workers. It is a win-win, and we believe it supports the workers and businesses. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u0022a48180f8df0541ccba45d154adb8028d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a48180f8df0541ccba45d154adb8028d\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I too was an employment lawyer for 25 years and I would agree with my colleague that what you\u2019ll see out of this is actually a real issue of disconnect between the object of the principal Act, which recognises the inherent inequality of power between an employer and employee, and the law that is about to be passed in this country, the Employment Relations (Trial Periods) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ENow, I was listening to a woman recently called Claudia Goldin\u2014she won the Nobel Prize for her work on the pay gap\u2014and it was a very interesting discussion. I\u2019d urge you to look at that work if you really want to work on bettering the lot of New Zealanders. I\u2019d love it if the Government MPs would actually look at that work, because it\u2019s science based. It\u2019s all based on her work as an economist. She has looked at the things that make a difference in people\u2019s lives, and she\u2019s done it quite dispassionately. She said that there was a difference between people who look at the world as historians and people who look at it as economists. I did a history degree, and so I look at the problem before us and the piece of legislation before us partly through a historic lens. The reason she says that that\u2019s different is she says the economists look at things in terms of markets and that the historians look at things in terms of power imbalance, which is interesting because it comes up in this situation. So I look at the world differently from many people in this room who would look at it in the market view. But the issue with markets, which is effectively systems, is that this doesn\u2019t really hold up under either form of scrutiny, in my opinion, and I want to explain why.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EThe historic lens that I take to this is that I\u2019ve always been aware that there are major issues with power imbalance, and I can see that in the work I\u2019ve done as an employment lawyer. Really, in the early days, I was involved just as we had awards, etc., and we had some form of collective representation. Then the world changed and we ended up in the Employment Contracts Act, where that was stripped away completely and people were treated in an atomised way. I worked under that and I found it really, really hard, because in these situations where you put somebody into a position where they have very little power, it\u2019s a very sunless world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EWe changed to an Act which recognised for the first time that power imbalance. That was the Employment Relations Act, with part of that Act about objectives there fair and square before us, holding us to account in terms of making sure that the things we did around employment\u2014because employment is so important to the bread and butter of people\u2019s lives\u2014were fair, were actually reasonable, and took into account the nature of human beings, which is that there are power imbalances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI saw a change to trials for groups under 20, and I thought, \u201COK, I can live with this.\u201D, because what you\u2019ve got in that situation is smaller employers who also are in a situation of less power than the big businesses. But this is a change that is all about giving the powerful more power. That\u2019s what, effectively, the Government are doing today, taking our biggest entities, taking our big powerful institutions, and making them bigger. And we\u2019re making the workers who work in those situations, who\u2019ve just begun their employment, much smaller and more vulnerable. That is what we are doing today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI want to explain how that works at a human level. I gave an example earlier in my speeches, and I want to give you another one. Take a childcare worker. Take a childcare worker living in Mount Albert who has her kid at K\u014Dwhai Intermediate, another one at Mount Albert Grammar, who\u2019s looking to this Government for a little bit of relief. They\u2019re renting and they\u2019re not earning a great deal of money. They might be earning $70,000; that\u2019s not unreasonable. This Government promised them an easier run. It promised them in tough times they would get a tax cut and they would be better off. What they face instead is a situation where if they\u2019re working for a childcare company and now they move across to one of the big corporate childcare companies, they\u2019re likely to go on a trial. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ENow, we know that women\u2019s pay has been below men\u2019s and we know it\u2019s been that way for a while. Surely a Government would try and make it better. But that woman\u2019s going to be hesitant to move, isn\u2019t she? Because she\u2019s now got further cost of living increases because her kids can\u2019t go into childcare. If she\u2019s got an under-2-year-old, she\u2019s not going to get it. She\u2019s not going to get that free childcare subsidy and she\u2019s not going to get all the half-price transport, which would have been possible for her children at K\u014Dwhai and at Mount Albert Grammar. That\u2019s gone and instead she\u2019s got a decision to make: does she move to that job that pays a little bit more at the big corporate childcare centre? Does she do it? Because if she does it, she\u2019ll be put on a trial period. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ENow, I asked the Minister yesterday whether\u2014as a thought she had had\u2014perhaps we should make sure that such people are not constrained at the other end of the trial period by something called a restraint of trade\u2014something I\u2019ve seen a lot. I\u2019ve seen it a lot with low-paid workers and I know it happens, because the evidence tells us it happens, and it happens to childcare workers. It happens to people like that. They can\u2019t just go and work down the road if they start with one of the big childcare companies because they\u2019re restrained.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI asked the Minister to consider an amendment on that, but no. No, no; apparently that\u2019s an entirely different thing and doesn\u2019t count. If we had been in a select committee process, I would have raised that, as would other people, and we would have ended up in a situation where perhaps we would have ended up with a little bit more balance. But there is no balance here, because now this woman will be in a position where she has to decide: does she go to the new job at $5 extra, which will feed her kids and pay for the bus fare and maybe pay for the childcare of her 2-year-old? Will she do that or will she not take that opportunity for career advancement? Will she stay where she is on less money, because that\u2019s what she\u2019s got to do, isn\u2019t it? She is not\u2014let\u2019s bust this myth once for all\u2014somebody who will be frightening to an employer and they\u2019ll have to take a chance. But is it possible they\u2019ll put her on the trial? Absolutely, it\u2019s possible. She will be put in the most precarious situation possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ENow, if something goes wrong in that time\u2014and I raise the issue of maybe her kids getting sick. We know how important it is to the community that people feel secure enough that they\u2019re not going to get sacked if their kids are sick. But say she has a run of bad luck and those children get sick and she ends up in a situation with her employer who is concerned. They\u2019re not going to tell her. What they\u2019re going to do is what human nature does. People in power, they don\u2019t engage in that situation. They tend to withdraw. They tend not to tell the childcare worker who is in that situation. They tend to just disengage. So she spends three months sweating it, three months worrying about it, and at the end of it, just before the three months are up\u2014because you take your time if you\u2019ve got the power on your side, don\u2019t you, and you do it when it suits you\u2014she\u2019s going to get terminated from her employment. Who is going to end up paying the bill? Because she\u2019ll be without work, and that\u2019ll be next Christmas, won\u2019t it? Thank you for that; happy Christmas!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EAt that stage, she will end up going to\u2014guess who? To the very people that you\u2019re punishing people for going there. She will end up on a benefit. Guess who pays those benefits? We do. And guess who will be getting the profit from the switch in staff? The big Kindercare or the big organisation that sacked her. They will be pocketing the money. That money won\u2019t be with New Zealanders. That money will be\u2014sure as eggs\u2014overseas. And guess who will have paid for it? The mugs in the Government will have made the taxpayer pay for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EWe can talk about competition, we can talk about competence, but if we do not scrutinise, if we do not scrutinise new law, if we do not put our thinking caps on, if we do not read the latest, people, if we do not take advice\u2014we are just arrogant and soulless if we do that. And if we do that, we will end up in deep trouble in this country. We will end up with people who hurt. We will end up with people who are powerless and disengaged. Do you know where this starts? With a lack of capacity to empathise. There were some disturbing signs on the other side that some people think that this would never happen to them. Well, it will happen to your children. I do not commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc7cd2788eff4545a0f22406f132c5d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc7cd2788eff4545a0f22406f132c5d6\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E Well, it\u2019s a great privilege here to take the last call on this great bill, the Employment Relations (Trial Periods) Amendment Bill, which has given a great Christmas present to all the business owners of New Zealand, where finally now they are going to have the opportunity to have great relationships with all their employees. One of the things that\u2019s really frustrated me as I\u2019ve been sitting here listening to the other side of the House is they demonise employers like we\u2019re the devil incarnate. Well, actually good employers build good businesses and they build them because they employ good people and they look after them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003EI\u2019m very fortunate to be in a position here to be representing the people of Northland. One of the reasons I can do that is because I\u2019ve got some very good staff that look after me and do a great job looking after my business and building the economy of this country, and that\u2019s what enabled me to do this job, and I look forward to doing it. I commend this bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a5a686e72e9c4e268fb9f7822decb18b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Employment Relations (Trial Periods) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000085\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dff9d585a30c4b7db238880206959299\u0022\u003ETaxation Principles Reporting Act Repeal Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224d9e949374a543aa9ce0f2eac760bfd9\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00224a6ce3d93532413a8ac250776ba89342\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a6ce3d93532413a8ac250776ba89342\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Taxation Principles Reporting Act Repeal Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228cdb156b46dd4f7b9fd27fe79bac07e4\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dffb24038ee6456d9d8f1f390e3e2e76\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Taxation Principles Reporting Act Repeal Bill be now read a first time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe bill that we are considering today has one simple purpose: to repeal the Taxation Principles Reporting Act 2023. The Act it repeals is not an ordinary taxation Act. It imposes no taxes, nor does it remove taxes. It neither makes the tax system fairer nor less fair. What it does do is require the Commissioner of Inland Revenue to commit resources to this make-work programme dreamed up by the former Government. In New Zealand we have a long history of a low rate - broad based tax system, and it is fitting that we have principles when it comes to tax that have never been in contention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EAs the Minister of Revenue, I\u2019ve signalled very clearly the principles this Government holds when it comes to tax. We want a tax system to be efficient and we want it to be effective. We want it to be focused on simplicity and compliance\u2014making sure people pay their taxes they owe, cracking down on evasion, and making it easy to navigate the system and reduce complexity to reduce cost. We also think that Kiwis should be paying less tax, and I\u2019m proud to say that on this side of the House we will deliver tax relief.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThis Act has fundamental flaws beyond the lack of justification for which it was ever passed into law. Firstly, it is the right of an elected Government to devise, shape, and implement its tax objectives, such as those that I\u2019ve just articulated. An elected Government should not have those ambitions hobbled by the views of an earlier Government on what constitutes a fair tax system\u2014especially a Labour Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThis Act paints a picture of the previous Government\u2019s view on taxation using tax principles that it dreamed up. Yes, we all want and should strive for a fair tax system. But what is not fair is one view of fairness to crowd out the views of others. That is what this Act does. To be a valuable enduring\u2014these principles, as they are described, need to be universally accepted by tax experts, the public, and across the political spectrum. In this Act, they are not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIn the various pieces of feedback the previous Government received when they passed this into law, there was a clear objection to the idea that the principles defined in the Act are widely understood or accepted, especially by those people who deal with this on a daily basis. Even the Treasury\u2014even the Treasury\u2014said it could present a risk to the integrity, and I quote, \u201Cindependence, and endurance of the reporting framework.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EAs I said earlier, this legislation does not make the tax system fairer, however one describes that. It merely describes what a fairness is according to the previous Government. It also does not make tax or change tax settings, or make anyone pay more or less tax, but it does set the foundation for more taxation, particularly regarding wealth taxes. But what it does do is it requires Inland Revenue to report on the performance of the tax system against these principles. There has been never any justification for why resources should be used to chase down information simply to make a point in regard to the previous Government instead of it being focused on core taxation services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIt might be somewhat confusing there, why such a bill, which makes no changes to taxation and merely adds redundant reporting, was passed into law in the first place. To answer that question, one only has to look at the Government that produced it. One whose wasteful spending drove an insatiable desire to squeeze every last cent out of the back pockets of hard-working Kiwis. This was a Government that worked behind the scenes on wealth taxes and job taxes, and the door is open again\u2014not more than a few weeks after falling out of power, Labour is already back on the \u201Ctax the people more train\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ERevenue spokesperson Dr Deborah Russell said it might be time to \u201Cseriously look at capital gains\u201D. Clearly, she has forgotten that her leader has tried to rule that out, or maybe there has been some information\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c779042c97e449edbcbbe8a608441409\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Watts, this is a legislative statement. First reading\u2014you\u2019re introducing a bill. You are straying away from what the convention is on that. Can I just remind you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272d1b7cb5ff946c38a1ec72c28bc9ab4\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. The Inland Revenue is a highly respected department with a strong history of managing highly complicated policy and operational areas. This Government, through the legislation that we\u2019re placing on the Table today, will ensure that they are focused on ensuring they have the tools to make our tax system more straightforward, efficient, and better overall. We should not be wasting their time putting together reports on the last Government\u2019s ideas of tax principles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThis bill repeals a bill that has no place in law, and it is right to consign it to the history as another example of unnecessary bureaucracy. Its repeal cannot come soon enough, and I won\u2019t be using any more of the House\u2019s time to discuss it. I commend the Taxation Principles Reporting Act Repeal Bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022a2f1c769381b415bb0ec442ae46b55c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a2f1c769381b415bb0ec442ae46b55c7\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022643eecd63dcb49b9a08babfe0ed80d08\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022643eecd63dcb49b9a08babfe0ed80d08\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E So much to say; so little time. It\u2019s a little hard to know where to start with that speech from the Minister of Revenue, but where I want to start is with the idea that in actual fact, this bill, repealing the Taxation Principles Reporting Act, does away with an incredibly valuable piece of information that we need in New Zealand\u2019s democracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI want to put the idea out there that, as Mr Watts said, this bill does not collect more tax. It does not change how our tax is calculated in any way. But what the Taxation Principles Reporting Act does is it gives us information about our tax system. It tells us how well our tax system is doing. Now, that\u2019s incredibly important in a democracy. Every three years we vote\u2014that\u2019s part of our democracy. We spend time lobbying the Government, we spend time making presentations to select committees, we spend time on petitions and on demonstrations, we engage in our governance on all sorts of levels. That\u2019s our democracy. It\u2019s a complex and multifaceted beast.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EBut one thing that makes our democracy function better is information so that people have a good understanding of the issues in play. Now, here\u2019s the problem: tax makes up half the Budget. It\u2019s an incredibly important part of our annual Budget process. It\u2019s something that people need to understand. It\u2019s something that people need to have good information about. Yet most people find it quite mysterious, and it\u2019s actually hard to find information about our tax system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, Mr Watts asserted that this was redundant reporting, suggesting that we could get all the information that the Taxation Principles Reporting Act would give us elsewhere. But I\u2019m going to challenge him on that during the committee stage of the debate to find out where else we could get this information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EBut I also want to talk about two other things that that Mr Watts said. He said that New Zealand has a broad based - low-rate tax system. It certainly has a low-rate tax system. Tax as a proportion of GDP is lower than OECD averages, but it does not have a broad-based system. It has big gaps in our tax system, and that\u2019s something we do need to address.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThere was something else that he asserted. He asserted that what the Taxation Principles Reporting Act does was ask Inland Revenue to report against principles that had been, and I quote him, \u201CTax principles that it dreamed up.\u201D\u2014tax principles that were just made up out of nowhere. That\u2019s a canard. It\u2019s just completely false. These tax principles have a long, long history, and I\u2019ve brought to the House my trusty copy of Adam Smith\u2019s The Wealth of Nations from 1776\u2014my well-thumbed and well-read copy of this really important work. Sitting in this incredibly important early work of economics and political theory are what are referred to as the four canons of taxation. So now we refer to them as the four main principles of taxation, and what they give us is how to assess a tax system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EWay back in 1776, Adam Smith set out four principles of taxation: fairness, certainty, convenience, efficiency. Since then, other principles have been added, but they are widely agreed. They are widely discussed and widely agreed amongst the tax community. There may be some nuance, there may be some detail, but to assert that they are dreamed up out of nowhere is absolutely ridiculous. We do have well-established tax principles. We can use them to judge the effectiveness of our tax system, and this is exactly what the Taxation Principles Reporting Act was in place to do, to enable us to have good information so that we could make good judgments about our tax system. This throwaway Government is going to throw away this incredibly useful piece of information. What a way to end the year. I do not commend this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u0022e9428b6698294b298d375cc09851f35b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e9428b6698294b298d375cc09851f35b\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Green\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E E te M\u0101ngai, t\u0113n\u0101 koe; t\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. Much like Dr Deborah Russell, I don\u2019t really know where to start here and I\u2019m a bit gutted for the new Minister, because this is embarrassing, mate. You\u2019re scared of the data and evidence that you\u2019ve made a lot of a song and dance about caring so much about. So let\u2019s talk about precisely that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThe first report under this legislation is due in 10 days. Two of those days are public holidays\u2014that is, of course, Christmas and Boxing Day\u2014two of those days are weekends, and that leaves six ostensible working days. But I\u2019m certain, as with most white-collar jobs across the rest of this country, that those who would be working in the IRD on this would be on holiday, probably from tomorrow, which means that all of the work necessary for the first report is done. Yet the Minister is rushing under urgency to repeal the enabling legislation, because he is terrified of what that report might, in fact, behold.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EI do have to say that that, kind of, has to leave us with the conclusion that the National Party, the ACT Party, and the New Zealand First Party are terrified of the data and evidence that they profess to care so much about. I also just want to refer to some of the comments as made by the Minister in introducing this legislation that somehow these were these foreign and alien concepts when it comes to tax principles\u2014those seven tax principles, mind, that we scrutinised heavily throughout the Finance and Expenditure Committee throughout this year, and the National Party could not identify one that they disagreed with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EBut to that point of how foreign and out the gate these are, these are the comments about independent adviser from that Finance and Expenditure Committee scrutiny on the initial legislation\u2014Sir Rob McLeod, none the less, who said, and I quote, \u201CI would omit the descriptors because the meaning of each design principle is sufficiently well understood on their own.\u201D That is not ideological; that is independent advice about the inherent value of each of those tax principles and how they are understood out there within the sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo there is a fundamental problem here, and that is the fundamental problem of the lack of data and evidence that we have consistently reported against in Aotearoa New Zealand. That has led to an issue of perception, which the National Party proclaimed to care about so much when they were repealing the dual mandate of the Reserve Bank of New Zealand and refocusing things just on that sole mandate. It wasn\u2019t about the data or evidence then either, by the way; it was simply about perception and the imputed behaviour of market players.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo let\u2019s talk about that fundamental issue. Here, I think, I would invite all members of the Government to read Max Rashbrooke\u2019s Too Much Money, published in 2021, within which there is a brilliant graphic contained. It was read, the Hon Simon Watts, by one of your former colleagues\u2014that was, of course, the one now leading the Chamber of Commerce in Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo this here is a really, really, really important graph. What this tells us is the distribution of wealth that New Zealanders think is ideal. It looks pretty fair; it looks pretty equitable; it looks as though it\u2019s distributed in a relative equitable smattering. Then we have, below that, the distribution of what New Zealanders think the distribution is. So you can see that from the ideal, we deviate into what New Zealanders think it is, and they think it\u2019s a lot more unfair than it actually is. But in fact, as reality and the data and evidence bear out, Minister Simon Watts, things are so, so much worse than New Zealanders think it is. As you can see here, that is the top 20 percent of New Zealanders holding far more than 60 percent to 70 percent of the wealth of everybody in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EOf course, this suspicion and this data and this evidence was even more borne out by the high-wealth individuals report from IRD and the subsidiary papers from Treasury at the beginning of this year. That confirmed what New Zealanders have suspected for a really, really long time: that our tax system is fundamentally unfair and it results in the aggregation of wealth from the top 311 families of approximately $85 billion. That is more than the bottom 2.5 million New Zealanders combined hold. What that IRD report told us, Minister Watts, is that that is not an accident. It is a consequence of a tax system which sees the wealthiest New Zealanders pay, effectively, half the tax rate of our nurses, of our firefighters, of our front-line essential workers, of those who work in early childhood, of our teachers, of the average New Zealander.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo what we are standing here today debating under urgency is the repeal of a bill that is largely already done from a Government that pretends to care about data and evidence, but spits in the face of public access to that information on. So I\u2019m at a loss, and really we will continue to prosecute this case throughout the committee of the whole House, because the Minister should be embarrassed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022 data-id=\u002284a631011bb54ef7913e6ed10af9783b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284a631011bb54ef7913e6ed10af9783b\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. ACT will be supporting this bill, and the hypocrisy from the other side this morning is staggering\u2014staggering.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230800cc31e344472955794036a61111c\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Madam Chair. I recognise that the member is a relatively new member, but the use of that term is one that\u2019s been ruled out by many, many presiding officers, and I\u2019d ask that he be asked to withdraw it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd51aaf3c9b04237b37d7baf2c485e3e\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I agree with the point of order. The member will withdraw\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb9d4e752bb845da8137883cd870e519\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227eb9dbe40e164a7f9ae332564487426f\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb62a49cc040486e8afa0c6567e72232\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON\u003C/span\u003E: And apologise to the House. The bill that we\u2019re repealing was done without proper public policy consultation. The then Minister announced that it would be widely consulted on, and it wasn\u2019t. It didn\u2019t even follow the IRD\u2019s own principles for developing policy. The generic tax policy process was not followed. If the former Government had taken the time to actually widely consult on this bill, maybe there would have been some tax principles that could have been agreed and reported on. It was\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bf66e95e0c147b9a0f0dd9ed3467221\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: You don\u2019t know what you\u2019re talking about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b60a3b0e3e8b4e10921f760507f5ca3d\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do. It was not done in an appropriate way. It was not done with a full and long select committee process, and the submitters overwhelmingly did not support it. You had accounting societies, the Law Society, all saying that it was not a bill that they would support. If the former Government had actually taken the time, we could have potentially agreed on some principles\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf5efc10eaf543a99716d9be181bddbf\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! I know everyone is tired and this is the end of the year, but there are people in in the community who would like to hear this debate with a little less background noise. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217b04b0c67b94d228f378734ac251714\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. As I said, if the time had been taken, perhaps a set of principles\u2014ACT is very interested in tax, as I\u2019m sure everyone would know. If time had been taken, perhaps this could have been a useful piece of legislation. But it wasn\u2019t. [Interruption] It wasn\u2019t, and we are not going to support it, and we want it repealed immediately so that something that wasn\u2019t properly consulted on and didn\u2019t have the support of the majority of submitters\u2014[Interruption] What we should be looking at is actually having tax principles\u2014actually, Dr Russell made some very good points about trying to have some consistency around tax principles\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222529ef2873de4dfa9b89f8c57d115e81\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: So which one do you disagree with?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fbbaecd45cf4b9ba6bc305dab92b9a1\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Take a full call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbda34ef5b8e4e2b8aafa6a3a1004ef6\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Great speech, Todd.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb43f262fd6c4b589f7a8d070a26a76c\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, thank you. [Interruption] I know. I\u2019m just letting them get it out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2cf02de31174e4fbef4aeb579f4e300\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s your call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b9dc34e1cbd4e12818434c258fcc2e7\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I appreciate that, Madam Speaker. Look, as I\u2019ve said, we do support this bill amending this Act that we think was ill conceived, inappropriately consulted on, and did not have widespread support. So I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u0022a30257e409b34b6ca82194f760064a15\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a30257e409b34b6ca82194f760064a15\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Green\u2014Auckland Central)\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Madam Speaker. I seek leave of the House to table the Finance and Expenditure Committee\u2019s report on the Taxation Principles Reporting Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211bfa60257c84deeae3a72ac7e235215\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Is that available?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0dd092f715f4c9193b110d357e4c89e\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK\u003C/span\u003E: It is, but it appears the members of the Government have not read it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00225c689a598aa04b398390aa51da36db29\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c689a598aa04b398390aa51da36db29\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not the use of the leave system. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7384295c7a1453a99cb628cb320edba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7384295c7a1453a99cb628cb320edba\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. The passion around this bill is absolutely remarkable. I\u2019m really impressed by the Opposition benches that they can keep going after the last two pieces of legislation and are still doing this in the last week before Christmas. Very impressive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EWhat we\u2019ve heard is that this is about understanding principles. No, it\u2019s not about understanding principles; it\u2019s about whether you actually need to report on those principles in the way which is being suggested. This Government is very, very clear that we want to reduce bureaucracy. What we have seen in the last few years is a burgeoning increase in the number of public servants required to do all sorts of reporting and compliance and all sorts of other things, and what we want to do is to save some money and give that back to the people who have worked so hard to pay for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EDr Russell said this is incredibly important information. Well, it may be incredibly important but we\u2019ve managed to cope for more than 180 years without that information and it hasn\u2019t done us too badly. Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick says she\u2019s given us the indication of how much is owned by various different parts of the community, but how much is paid in tax? About half our population doesn\u2019t actually pay any net tax by the time they\u2019ve interacted with the Government system. So I think we need to recognise that as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7c666f5f8044eaeb1530477dfce262e\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: So let\u2019s report on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c46f64f550f44d9ace4207f18fd68be\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER\u003C/span\u003E: I think we already know that. We don\u2019t need a bureaucracy to report on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EWhat is very, very clear is that this was clearly contested at the select committee stage. We\u2019ve got the regulatory impact statement here, something that the Opposition benches are very, very keen on, and you can see the Inland Revenue Department\u2019s advice there\u2014that there are concerns about that, they reflect the concerns about that, and they can also report on some of these things in other ways as well. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022dae02d1e8b974644a4ceb2db6a11e8be\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dae02d1e8b974644a4ceb2db6a11e8be\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you very much for the opportunity, somewhat earlier than I\u2019d expected, to speak on this bill. Mr Watts, in his opening speech, I think, articulated a very important point about any piece of legislation that comes forward. He said that the reason why the Government wants to repeal the Taxation Principles Reporting Act is because, \u201CThe principles are not universally accepted by tax experts.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWell, I\u2019ve got news for Mr Watts. His Government\u2019s programme of tax cuts is not actually \u201Cuniversally accepted\u201D by tax experts. So we\u2019ll ditch that now, will we, as well? We\u2019ll get rid of that because it\u2019s not universally accepted. You see, the thing is that Mr Watts actually doesn\u2019t have a reason for getting rid of this legislation other than who brought it in. That\u2019s it; it\u2019s the only thing. Because the reporting and the information that is provided under this Act, I would have thought, is exactly the thing that parties opposite would want: information in the public arena about our tax system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ENow, we all know that there are people in this House who know the intricate and arcane details of our taxation system\u2014I\u2019m thinking about tax lawyers and people who\u2019ve lectured in tax policy\u2014but most New Zealanders don\u2019t. Most New Zealanders don\u2019t have access to that kind of information, and actually being able to understand our tax system, being able to understand how tax is collected, what basis it\u2019s collected on, and how that affects core principles of how we live our lives is relevant and important information. The tax principles as listed in the Act that is being repealed by this bill are ones that I think universally\u2014to coin Mr Watts\u2019 phrase\u2014are ones that people would want to understand: equity, efficiency, integrity, compliance costs, certainty, flexibility, and adaptability. Now, we will disagree across this House about tax policy and about what policy we think should be implemented at any given moment. But what I would have hoped we would not disagree about, Madam Speaker, is the importance of transparency and the importance of information being available to New Zealanders to be able to understand this core and critical part of our financial system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve heard today already\u2014and fair warning for Mr Watts; these will be questions that come up in the committee of the whole House stage. I\u2019ve heard from him that there\u2019s a bureaucracy involved here. We know exactly how many people are involved. It\u2019s 2.5 full-time equivalents. That, as Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick has said on multiple occasions during this debate already, is 0.06 percent of the staff of Inland Revenue; less than 0.1 of 1 percent of the staff of Inland Revenue to actually help all New Zealanders understand their tax system. That is a very, very small price to pay for that information to be available.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EBut, Madam Speaker, do you know what makes this all so much worse? It is that the work on the first report has undoubtedly already been completed. As has already been pointed out by previous speakers, we are towards the end of the working year. IRD are a very effective and efficient department and they will have completed this work. It will exist. Mr Watts should also be warned that we\u2019ll be asking about that when we come to the committee of the whole House stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThis is a Government that rails against wastage. The work\u2019s been done and they want to waste it. They want to say, \u201CYou know what? Even though we oppose this legislation that the previous Government brought in, we\u2019re going to make certain that the work that\u2019s been done on it is wasted.\u201D They are actively passing a piece of legislation today to ensure that the work of the Public Service is wasted. What a remarkable thing it is, for the first act of the Minister of Revenue to be coming to this House to take away a piece of legislation that means more New Zealanders will understand the tax system and that will provide more transparency about our taxation system. That\u2019s the priority of the Government here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EAmong all of the bizarre things that they\u2019ve brought in front of this House over the last couple of weeks, this is the one\u2014this piece of legislation is the one that makes the least sense to me. They don\u2019t like workers, so they\u2019re going to do the legislation that we just had before. But this one\u2019s about the transparency of our taxation system. Every member across there should want to know what is in this report or at the very least give New Zealanders the opportunity to hear it. They are afraid of what\u2019s in it. We will be strongly opposing this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9883afeefb74277bc3eaf8327d20925\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9883afeefb74277bc3eaf8327d20925\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Just for the Green Party\u2019s reference, I will swap the Labour Party call with your call and keep the order, and I\u2019ll call the National Party\u2014Stuart Smith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u0022c28e7ac5704746b39902f587e90fb0f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c28e7ac5704746b39902f587e90fb0f5\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Well, there\u2019s certainly been some extra shots of coffee this morning by the sound of the energy in the House. Who knew people would get so engaged about tax? This is a very simple bill. It was, in fact, the Hon Grant Robertson who talked about the principles in the bill earlier. But in the select committee, it was quite clear\u2014it came out in the report\u2014that there was a lack of common understanding on the principles. In fact, the Inland Revenue themselves stated that in their view, the anticipated benefits of the Act are unlikely to be fully realised for that reason. So it\u2019s an unnecessary bit of bureaucracy, which we know that the former Labour Government loves. We don\u2019t; we\u2019re more efficient, and we\u2019re getting on with it. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u0022644d5e68d1d246e798fdaa758144a49d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022644d5e68d1d246e798fdaa758144a49d\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E Well, obviously the members of the Government don\u2019t have a great deal to say about this bill. They can\u2019t defend it, because it is an indefensible bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EAs far as I\u2019m aware, no one in the coalition Government has said that they object to any of the seven principles that are outlined in the Act that is about to be repealed here. So if they don\u2019t object to the principles themselves, the question then is: why are they spending the last sitting day or two of the year repealing this? They ran an election campaign saying that they were going to be relentlessly focused on the cost of living for New Zealanders. The question here is: when there are 2\u00BD fulltime-equivalent staff in an operation of 4,000 at Inland Revenue, how does repealing this Act reduce the cost of living for middle and low income New Zealanders? The answer is that it makes no difference at all to the cost of living of middle and low income New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ESo the question then is: in whose interests is the Government repealing this Act? That is obvious\u2014the answer to that is obvious. It is the interests of the people who pay less of a share in tax as a proportion of their wealth and income than middle and low income New Zealanders, and those are the people who are the donors to the National Party and the ACT Party and the New Zealand First Party, who funded those parties\u2019 election campaigns in order to ensure that their tax transparency would be erased so that questions would stop being asked about what an unfair, unproductive, unprofessional, and inequitable tax system we have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EParticularly for those members of the National Party who, when they were in Opposition, sat on this side of the House and day after day after day taunted the Labour-led Government around how transparent they were being, how open and transparent they were being, throwing that in the faces of the Government at the time\u2014and one of their very first acts as a Government is to take away openness and transparency about the tax system of this country, to simply eliminate that and to say, \u201CWe actually don\u2019t want to know. We want to see no evil, we want to hear no evil, and we want to speak no evil about what an inequitable tax system we have.\u201D Because that is what is in the report that has already been written that is under the current Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ESo those are the only interests\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f1ffd3b216f43049653e28e52d0d681\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Madam Speaker. I draw to your attention Speakers\u2019 ruling 55/5 where it is out of order to say that a Government is influenced, and certainly that is what I am hearing from the member who has just resumed his seat. It\u2019s out of order to suggest a Government or any member is subject to outside domination. It does say that the term \u201Cpressure\u201D is a borderline one, but it is really not in the spirit of Speakers\u2019 rulings, nor is it, by the way, in the spirit of Christmas, and when I\u2019m on my feet\u2014thank you\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222808778e558349dda7147e2ad618df28\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Is this still the point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b671c31535544eb29b31ed04589f9f46\u0022\u003EHon Judith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: So I would ask the member to withdraw his statement, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222db3002066b142ac820c83f8343fbfc5\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, I did not say that the Government was acting under influence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e8b2b94f9ab47e1a21c31a5f83877ac\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Just to the member that raised the point of order, I did seek clarification when I heard that comment, and technically it is within the Standing Orders. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290069e65e6ba409885fc6c3fd9f8d686\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW\u003C/span\u003E: Well, in the spirit of Christmas, just seeing as we\u2019re taking away transparency, we\u2019re taking away openness about the nature of this tax system in a way that obviously makes no difference to average New Zealanders, which the members of that Government said that they were supposed to represent. And I do want to thank the Minister for her interjection there, just because it helps to kind of really point out just how defensive they are about what a pointless bill this is, given that, actually, the one thing that we did not have a good understanding of in this country was an understanding of the nature of the tax system and of wealth distribution and so on and so forth. That was why this Act was there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ESo for all of those new members who have been elected as part of the Government benches, I\u2019d just ask them to reflect on exactly why it is that this has been introduced. What is so urgent that it gets introduced under urgency right before Christmas, in order to kind of fill the time? I have to say that for a Government whose coalition agreements refer to saying that \u201Cdecisions will be based on data and evidence\u201D, one of their very first acts is to ensure that there is no data or evidence in relation to the tax system of this country. I have to say that it is appalling that this Government would say, as one of its very first acts, having fought an election campaign saying that the whole point was to focus on the cost of living, that this only serves the cost of living of the wealthiest New Zealanders of this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022 data-id=\u0022797f4ced9e624d168da07c958d35859b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022797f4ced9e624d168da07c958d35859b\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E I support the repeal of the Tax Principles Reporting Act because we don\u2019t need more bureaucracy, more reporting, more tax, and, as my colleague referred to, redundant reporting\u2014and, as the member on the other side of the House also referred to, redundant reporting. We don\u2019t need more time-wasting and wasteful spending. We need a fair tax system that is simple and efficient, that supports hard-working New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003EWe don\u2019t need a tax principles Act to tell us our principles on tax. On the other side of the House, they are obsessed with taxing hard-working New Zealanders and creating more bureaucracy and more rules. On this side of the House, we are focused on getting things done, delivering for New Zealanders, and creating less bureaucracy. I commend this bill to the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u0022501e7d6b197b465a873c692c649cee69\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022501e7d6b197b465a873c692c649cee69\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E And here we are, a mere three, four, five days before Christmas, with a bill that\u2019s coming under urgency that adds to the anti-worker agenda that that side of the House, that Government, wants to run. We have seen under urgency over the last day\u2014over the last three days, because this is Tuesday\u2014an absolute agenda of removing fairness in our system, fairness for workers, fairness for employees. This bill continues that unfairness, because the unfairness is no longer going to be subject to evidence or data.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ENow, I have worked for a long time in the tax community outside of these walls, including for one of the Ministers, the Hon Judith Collins, who, in the time that she was the Minister, did a very important piece of work around a multilateral instrument with overseas jurisdictions. She championed that piece of work to ensure that overseas companies and overseas jurisdictions could share information with New Zealand to ensure that people overseas were paying their fair share of tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThis piece of work allows New Zealand to share the information so that the rest of the public who are listening to this debate understand where the incidence of tax lands, and, unfortunately, this Government has shown that it is not evidence based, or perhaps it\u2019s going to be evidence based on the data that they want to use. This report would have been written\u2014there\u2019s a draft report. I look forward to our members\u2019 Official Information Act (OIA) requests to Inland Revenue for that draft report to understand the evidence that\u2019s been written. But when I looked to the Minister\u2019s press release as to why exactly that side of the House, this Government, wants to ram this piece of legislation through just before Christmas, I couldn\u2019t find the answers, and all I found were a whole bunch of contradictions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EOn the Taxation Principles Reporting Act, I quote the Minister: \u201Cdespite widespread opposition\u201D. Again, as evidenced by one of our own Finance and Expenditure Committee members and other members who were sitting through that tax principles bill, that was absolutely incorrect. There wasn\u2019t \u201Cwidespread opposition\u201D. Then the Minister\u2019s press statement goes \u201CThe bureaucracy it would have entailed is completely unnecessary.\u201D Again, even in the officials\u2019 regulatory impact statement, it states 2.5 fulltime-equivalents (FTEs)\u20142.5 FTEs\u2014and I object to the Minister using the word \u201Cbureaucracy\u201D to describe our hard-working public servants, the 2.5 of them who would have already written this report and whose time, therefore, is being wasted by this Government. But, then again, it is official information, so, again, I encourage other members of this House to put in that OIA request.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThe Minister\u2019s press release then carries on: \u201Cbe on higher priority measures to address the cost of living and get the government\u2019s books back in order.\u201D Well, the cost of living just yesterday, in the Minister of Finance\u2019s mini-Budget, removed two key elements which would have helped with the cost of living: that is the half-price transport fares, and that is the removal of the 20 hours\u2019 early childhood education (ECE). Those are two policy initiatives that would have helped our families with the cost of living. I\u2019m aware, just today, of a family that was absolutely banking on being able to have 20 hours\u2019 ECE free next year and for that family to be able to go back to work for one of those parents, but this Government is not about the cost of living.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThe Minister\u2019s press release statement then goes, \u201C[it] requires Inland Revenue to report under the Act by 31 December unless the Act is repealed prior.\u201D Again, the work\u2019s been done\u2014another contradiction in the Minister\u2019s press release, because the work has been done. We know that, because the Green member quite clearly showed that there\u2019s only a few more working days. So again, the OIAs are going to be flooding through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThe last thing I want to point to in the Minister\u2019s press release: \u201C[it means it\u2019s] focused on collecting tax and contributing to the delivery of the Government\u2019s income tax reduction plans.\u201D I can bet my bottom dollar that the 2.5 FTEs are probably working in the evaluation section of Inland Revenue. Their information will help target where you need to put your compliance costs, where you need to put your compliance resources, because, again, the Minister in his press release has failed to provide an absolute foundation for repealing this Act under urgency. It shows that that side of the House wants to be anti-workers. It wants to be anti-transparent. I do not commend this bill to the House, and I look forward to the debate we\u2019re going to have over the next couple of days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb2326a0997844758c2ecb391d24573b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb2326a0997844758c2ecb391d24573b\u0022\u003ENANCY LU (National):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak on the first reading of the Taxation Principles Reporting Act Repeal Bill. I am in total support of this bill because it is truly a bureaucratic scheme by an Opposition member. I was from the profession of tax and accounting in my pre-Parliament life, and so I know that in practice both taxpayers and tax services providers need a fair, simple, transparent, easy, and adequate tax system to service our country\u2019s revenue needs. Kiwis don\u2019t need another bureaucratic scheme, so therefore I commend the bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022075d96fb4305463fb993b8da9bd8155d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Taxation Principles Reporting Act Repeal Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000176\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00229a4149c6ad4e4ab99bacb54bd0e721b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229a4149c6ad4e4ab99bacb54bd0e721b0\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for second reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002207b58da8804a41d1b6437151c7f62e53\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022abff4792fa144bcaa6376d11bbbef76f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022abff4792fa144bcaa6376d11bbbef76f\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Taxation Principles Reporting Act Repeal Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EGood tax legislation generally can improve a lot for the taxpayers in this country, either by introducing favourable tax changes, or in making tax legislation simpler and cheaper to comply with. The Taxation Principles Reporting Act 2023 does neither of these things. It also does not do what it set out to do: to provide a set of principles which would guide New Zealand to a fairer tax system. Instead, the Act contains a set of taxation principles and establishes a reporting requirement on the Internal Revenue Department (IRD). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe bill we are considering today will repeal the descriptions of those principles and the obligation on IRD to produce the reports on the performance of the tax system weighted against those principles. The Government is taking the step because those principles, to be of value, need to be reflective of the values which we can all sign up to, and not the views of the earlier Government. Those views, on what constitutes a fair tax system, cannot be allowed to stymie the tax policy aspirations of a democratically elected Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe honourable members of this House, whatever their political conviction, are united, I\u2019m sure, in one fundamental objective: that we all want to see a fairer tax system. We also want to see increased transparency in the tax system, but we have differing views on what fairness looks like, and that is to be expected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe Act we are repealing purportedly was to achieve those objectives, but in reality it simply gives the illusion of having achieved something. In fact, it actually introduced some concerning problems which have negative implications for transparency, for public understanding, and to a principled tax policy development. The right of any elected Government to devise, shape, and implement its own tax policy must be preserved. A Government is elected by the public to carry out its stated tax policies. Had the Act been consulted on, it is possible that it might have achieved consensus on what constitutes fairness in the tax system. Consultation would have also helped avoid the problematic descriptors of those principles. Repealing the Act will remove those problems. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EAnother problem is the core requirement of the Act: the requirement for the IRD to produce reports on the performance of the tax system as gauged against those principles. First, we don\u2019t think the reporting needs to be legislated for. Secondly, to meet the reporting requirement, the IRD is likely to need to collect more information from taxpayers on economic income, for instance, and this could impose unnecessary compliance costs. The final thing to mention is that I previously described the Taxation Principles Act as \u201Credundant\u201D. Once this bill we are considering has fulfilled its objective, it too will become redundant. But rather than cluttering up the statute book with redundant Acts, the bill contains a legislative housekeeping measure, clause 3, which says that the repealing Act is itself repealed on 1 January 2025. So this bill first repeals the Taxation Principles Reporting Act with effect later this month, and then, having done its job, the repealing Act repeals itself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThere are many problems with the Taxation Principles Reporting Act. It\u2019s good, therefore, that this Act will be repealed and allow us all to move on and have a merry Christmas. I therefore commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd37f0b64d014855867819cb6acf9ce9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd37f0b64d014855867819cb6acf9ce9\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E This is an unusual bill for this National-led coalition. It\u2019s an unusual bill because it\u2019s got a regulatory impact statement. Famously, they said a couple of weeks ago that they weren\u2019t going to have regulatory impact statements for matters that were being repealed under urgency, but this bill has one, so a little bit of consistency from the National-led coalition Government would be quite nice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EHowever, setting aside that, I suppose, minor point, I think I do want to draw something out of it, which is that having worked with the officials at Inland Revenue myself in recent years, having in past times been one of those officials at Inland Revenue Department, I have a very, very high regard for their integrity and professionalism, for their intellectual commitment to an excellent tax system in New Zealand, and for the work they do to preserve it. I think it\u2019s a mark of their integrity and their professionalism that despite that Government\u2019s rush to do away with regulatory impact statements, the hard-working and able officials at Inland Revenue nevertheless produced one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI understand that perhaps a draft regulatory impact statement was prepared for one of the bills that\u2014which bill was it that there was a draft one?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c7ef670922b40089568764d501ba47b\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: EVs\u2014Clean Car Discount.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a2c79b2967b483a979e4048cce57477\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, right, OK; the one repealing the electric vehicle discount scheme. There was a draft regulatory impact statement for that, but it wasn\u2019t brought to this House\u2014they didn\u2019t want to see that one in the House. We\u2019ll be requesting it under the Official Information Act, of course. But this one has at least got into the House, so I\u2019m grateful for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI just wish to repeat back some words which members of the Government have said in respect of our tax system. So, first of all, welcome to Nancy Lu. I believe that might have been the first time that Nancy was speaking in this House. She brought to the table her previous experience in the tax system, which of course, having come from that that space myself, is always valuable to have in this House. Nancy Lu said quite correctly that what New Zealanders want\u2014and indeed this is what I know Inland Revenue works toward and the tax community works toward\u2014is a fair, simple, easy, and transparent tax system. Of course! Of course that\u2019s what we all want. And Simon Watts, the Minister of Revenue, said that we all want to see a fairer tax system and we want transparency. Those were words coming from members of the National-led coalition. Of course we all want that. The point is: how would we know? How could we assess whether that is the case?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThis is exactly what the Taxation Principles Reporting Act sets out to do. It sets out to give us a way of assessing the fairness and simplicity, the easiness, the transparency of the tax system. It sets up some principles. It sets up some ways that they are to be measured. And then it sets up a reporting requirement for Inland Revenue so that those of us\u2014and I take it that we\u2019ve got broad agreement across the House on this, that we want to have a tax system that is fairly simple, easy, and transparent. It sets up a way that we can actually get some information about that as to whether our tax system really is fair, whether it really is simple, whether it really is easy, whether it really is transparent. That is exactly what the Taxation Principles Reporting Act was enabling us to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EBy doing away with this Act, the National-led coalition Government is working against us understanding the fairness, the simplicity, the easiness, the transparency of the tax system. What a shame\u2014what a shame. As my colleague James Shaw rightly pointed out, we\u2019re pretty sure that the hard-working Inland Revenue Department officials, hard-working people of great integrity, have almost certainly already prepared the very first interim report on the tax principles. And yet, nevertheless, we\u2019re not even going to get that interim report. What a shame. So two things: doing away with the reporting requirement and doing away with the work that has already been done to assess the fairness, simplicity, and easiness and transparency of the tax system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EMr Watts went on to talk about a democratically elected Government. Indeed, in the broad sense, we are all part of the governance of New Zealand. We are all part of this democracy. But democracies thrive on transparency. They thrive when citizens understand what is happening. They thrive when people can participate meaningfully in democratic processes. They thrive when people have the information to do this. Now, as someone who has worked in the tax system, I know that tax is not easy. Look, when I was a tax lecturer, one of my first tasks every year was to stop my students being scared of tax. A lot of them found it quite confronting and hard to deal with. My first task was always\u2014always\u2014to help them to understand how tax worked and to get them to be familiar with it so that even if it wasn\u2019t easy, they could at least get under way with working on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, if it was hard for students who had already done some basic accountancy, if it was hard for people who wanted to know about the tax system, how much harder for the rest of the country? Some of us in this House have specialised knowledge about taxation and we can bring that knowledge to bear in debates in this House, but what proportion of New Zealand actually understands our tax system? I\u2019m going to say it\u2019s probably not a very high proportion. That\u2019s a shame, because tax really matters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EIt matters because democratically elected Government quite rightly asks their citizens to contribute to the running of the country. And how much they ask from each citizen is a matter for debate constantly, and especially in elections. But how much better that debate would be, how much better our democracy would be, if we had the information we need about our tax system, rather than just the very, very basic level that people mostly have. So that is why this Taxation Principles Reporting Act would have added to our democracy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI wish I had had time in this speech to go through each of the principles and to talk about why each of the principles is important. Actually, this is one of the things that would have been examined and, in fact, was examined in a select committee process. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa4f69dcb6af4124affd1fa7d17f8f9f\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry to interrupt the member. Can I just ask for these conversations to be taken outside the House, thank you. Apologies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f785d3acc4d49b1914774f6908b232f\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. There was a select committee process where, as always happens in select committee processes\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227418cfbcb53447d091f9ca8c4307db9f\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Great report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c8db22a94d2482b92dd135da9faf3a4\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Great report. The wording of the bill at that time was changed in order to meet the concerns of submitters. Now, of course not everything went the way that some submitters wanted, but nevertheless there was an ongoing discussion about the content of those tax principles and about which tax principles should be in the bill and which ones should be measured. In fact it came off the back of a standard consultation process. It\u2019s one of the correct things about the IRD\u2019s policy process, the generic tax policy process. It is an extensive process of consultation, of exposure drafts, and so on. So the principles in the ACT were extensively consulted on. Nevertheless, all that work is going to go to waste. What a shame.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI\u2019m hoping that my colleagues on this side of the House will perhaps pick up some of the challenges that were issued by the Minister of Revenue. He said that we don\u2019t even agree on what fairness is in a tax system. That\u2019s simply not the case. Actually, we do have a fairly good grasp on what people think is fairness in a tax system. We do know from survey, research, and so on that most New Zealanders think that we should have a progressive tax system, that those who earn more should contribute more to the wellbeing of the country. Now, there might be disagreement about how much, there might be disagreement about how that is calculated and so on, but most New Zealanders buy into the basic principle of a progressive tax system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s a vertical equity. Most New Zealanders buy into the notion of horizontal equity, and I\u2019m hoping that my colleagues on this side of the House will talk about these principles a little bit more. But there is actually fairly widespread agreement about what a tax system should look like, and it\u2019s agreement within New Zealand\u2014quibbling around the edges, some detail and nuance, but some broad agreement there. There\u2019s broad agreement in the tax literature about what a good tax system should look like. The only thing is we actually need to measure how it\u2019s working in this country, and that National-led Government will not allow that to happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u00223c5ddca2c856486fbd6063c61dac6893\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c5ddca2c856486fbd6063c61dac6893\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Green\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E E te M\u0101ngai, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. There\u2019s been a lot made of the fact that as I\u2019ve stood up here representing the Greens in opposition to this legislation, I\u2019ve exerted some level of frustration. And that\u2019s true, I am deeply frustrated about the fact that we are sitting under urgency without due process for this legislation through a select committee process, which, ironically, the National-led Government is saying they think should have occurred to a greater extent when it came to the imposition of this legislation in the first place, but also the fact that I have not heard yet one coherent or consistent argument from members of the Government on the need to repeal this legislation. So if I may, Madam Speaker, given that this is the only scrutiny that we\u2019ll have on this repeal legislation, I think it is really important to put these points on record again and again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EAs, actually, members of the Government themselves have stated, this legislation as it currently sits on our statute book doesn\u2019t fix our broken tax system. So let\u2019s dig into what it is that the Greens are talking about when we\u2019re talking about our broken tax system. Well, actually, arguably, some would say it\u2019s by design that it is inequitable and unfair, as reflected in that report from the beginning of this year from the IRD, with subsidiary papers from Treasury, which showed us that the wealthiest 311 families in this country pay an effective tax rate of less than half of that of the average New Zealander. What that kind of rubbed up against is the general sentiment and sense out there that many New Zealanders have that the tax system is unfair. But that tax system is a result of either intentional decisions that have been made by Government after Government after Government, or by intentional neglect. That is the point of this reporting legislation, to require that for the first time, God forbid, in this country, we have consistent reporting against consistent measures so that we can measure the efficacy of our tax system against principles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo to dig through those principles\u2014because I think it is a really, really important point that I actually haven\u2019t heard any contention from members of the Government in opposition to any of the seven principles within the legislation. So let\u2019s talk about those seven principles; the first is the notion of horizontal equity\u2014and this is a bingo card so folks can play along at home, or those on the Government benches if they\u2019d like to actually address the substance of the legislation that they\u2019re appealing under urgency this morning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EHorizontal equity\u2014first up. That is, basically, the notion, and I quote, \u201CThe extent to which people with similar levels of economic income pay similar amounts of tax\u201D. It seems like a pretty fair metric that we should be measuring against. The second principle is efficiency, something that I often hear members of the Government railing in support for. Efficiency, and I quote, \u201Cis the extent to which tax revenue is raised in ways that minimise costs to the economy, including distortions.\u201D The third principle is that of vertical equity, and here I quote, \u201CTax is progressive if people with higher levels of economic income pay a higher proportion of that income in tax.\u201D That is a principle that\u2019s been baked into our tax system since time immemorial. The fourth principle is of revenue integrity, and that is, and I quote, \u201C[coherent and] sustainable over time and minimises opportunities for tax avoidance and tax evasion.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll never forget the point at which we were debating another piece of tax legislation a few years ago when the Hon Andrew Bayly said, \u201CThere is such a thing as legitimate tax avoidance.\u201D And he really said the quiet part out loud there, in talking about how our tax system enables those with power and wealth to squirrel away that wealth in such a way to avoid payment of taxation. It\u2019s totally legal and totally legitimate. Is it ethical? Is it fair? Well, that\u2019s exactly what this principle would have allowed us to report against.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThe fifth principle is one of compliance and administrative costs\u2014again, something I would have thought that this Government, who is really opposed to waste, would have been in support of. It is, and I quote, \u201Cthe extent to which compliance and administrative costs for taxpayers and the Government are reasonable.\u201D The sixth is certainty and predictability\u2014and here I thought that we loved a \u201Ccertain\u201D investment environment\u2014that is, and I quote, \u201Cthe extent to which the tax system is \u2026 transparent and taxpayers are able to determine their tax obligations before they are due.\u201D Is that not a really important principle that all of us in this House should abide by or seek to uphold? The seventh is the principle of flexibility and adaptability; here it says, I quote, \u201Cthe extent to which the tax system keeps pace with changes in society, in particular technological and commercial developments, and changes in inequality or comparative wellbeing.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThe reason that I thought it was really, really important to put that on the record is because I\u2019ve reflected on a number of the speeches, especially from new members, and it appears as though they\u2019re not quite aware of the extent of the process that we had undertaken at the Finance and Expenditure Committee to put really, really serious scrutiny on these principles and the operation of this legislation. And here I would just refer those members back to the points\u2014not made by the Government, not even made by IRD advisers, or by officials, or even by submitters, but by the independent adviser that members of the ACT Party and the National Party agreed to appointing to our Finance and Expenditure Committee on the basis of those principles and his ability to offer us meaningful insight into them. This is, again, the substantial document of the Finance and Expenditure Committee\u2019s scrutiny on the taxation reporting legislation, and this is Sir Rob McLeod\u2014you can google him if you\u2019re not aware of how extensive his experience and his reputation is in this space. He was actually arguing for the removal of the definition of these principles because he thought that they were so well understood. So just to put this on the record again, he says, and I quote, \u201CI would omit the descriptors because the meaning of each design principle is sufficiently well understood on their own.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo that then takes us to another point, which we\u2019ve heard rather flippantly from the Minister and from members of the Government, that apparently this was really widely opposed. Well, unfortunately, that doesn\u2019t really quite bear out in the facts. Again, I would invite members to go and look at the Finance and Expenditure Committee report and the departmental report from that select committee scrutiny, which shows us that, in fact, the majority of submitters were in favour of consistent reporting and data and evidence on the efficacy and operation of our tax system. In fact, even players like the Federated Farmers were in support of the basic principles as outlined in this legislation. They wanted this reporting because\u2014you know what?\u2014all of us benefit. All New Zealanders benefit when we have more access to information, more transparency, so that better and more informed decisions can be made by the Government but also, yeah, so that those in contention with the direction of the Government can make the argument in the opposite direction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EHere I just reflect on the statement from Jeanette Fitzsimons, who, obviously, was the founding female co-leader of the Greens, who said, \u201CSunlight is the best disinfectant.\u201D We can reflect on a number of different instruments that Parliaments past have instituted in order to provide greater levels of insight into decision making, into data, into evidence such that the public can draw their own conclusion. I think about how our forebears advocated, for example, for the pecuniary interests for members of Parliament, which at the time might have been argued against on the basis that they are a massive incursion into the privacy of members of Parliament, and, you know, members of the public should just trust members of Parliament when it comes to any kind of influence that they may or may not have over their decision making. But hey, guess what? It\u2019s now a matter of common practice and it is out there for members of the public to draw their own conclusions. It is a standard practice of transparency and accountability. Same actually goes for PAYE. When that was first instituted as an income tax proposal, there were arguments made that this was a massive incursion into the privacy of individuals to organise and arrange their own affairs, and you know, just a little \u201Cwink, wink, nudge, nudge\u2014just trust us\u201D. But again, obviously now this is a matter of common practice because this is how society and our economy evolves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo let\u2019s talk about that point of how our society and our economy has evolved. Well, it\u2019s evolved in such a way that, as I held up before in the first reading, we have the greatest levels of wealth inequality in this country that we have ever seen on record. And you know what? It\u2019s actually, as far as democracy goes, an OK thing that members of the Government don\u2019t want to see that addressed. That is their prerogative. They can choose what side they want to sit on when it comes to that argument and that debate. But our contention, here in the Opposition, is that in lieu of having access to that data and that information and that consistent data set, we are robbing not only this Parliament of the opportunity to have a meaningful and informed debate and discussion but the general public\u2019s ability to also participate in understanding precisely what is going on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThe point\u2019s been made time and again that this work has actually already been done, because we know that the first report is due out on 31 December and the 2.5 full-time equivalents (FTEs) who have been seconded into working on this\u2014just for the record, again, that\u2019s 0.06 percent of all of the FTEs working within IRD\u2014we have seen that they will have already done this work. So I\u2019m very much looking forward to putting forth those Official Information Act requests to the Minister and seeing the advice that he so evidently has seen, which scared him so much into putting this into urgency before Christmas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThe final point is that I just really put it on the Government, who have said that they still want to see some transparency in reporting, to tell us precisely what format they\u2019d like it to take. Because the IRD themselves, in their own regulatory impact statements, are asking for more resources to keep doing exactly that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022de9ff1647bee46559590610a3a5573f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de9ff1647bee46559590610a3a5573f8\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR (Associate Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I thank the member who\u2019s just resumed her seat, Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick, for the speech she gave, although I have to say I don\u2019t think the last nine minutes were really necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EI stand in support of the Taxation Principles Reporting Act Repeal Bill, and let me take an opportunity to respond to some of the things that we\u2019ve just heard. We\u2019ve heard time and again that the wealthiest New Zealanders pay half the tax rate of the average New Zealander. We\u2019ve heard that time and again, repeated by people on the Opposition benches, and I wouldn\u2019t describe it as lying because, as Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick recently found, you\u2019re not supposed to say that. In fact, for people who want to watch on replay, you can see the high and mighty Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick, who tells us we\u2019re all inexperienced and have no data, come into the House at midnight and apologise to the House for not knowing the most basic rules.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EShe also repeats continuously this untrue assertion that the wealthiest New Zealanders pay half the tax rate of the average New Zealander. Let me tell you where that comes from. It comes from a fishing expedition that the previous Government sent the IRD on to survey 311 high net worth New Zealanders, and they calculated how much money those people had and how much their paper assets increased over a period of time and how much tax they paid. And they divided the tax they paid by how much their paper wealth had increased to try and calculate what they described as an effective tax rate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EWell, the problem with that is that if that was really the standard that was applied to New Zealanders, then take a year like 2021. The median house price in 2021 under the previous Government, when it lost control of monetary policy and lost control of inflation, increased by $135,000. And that means that the average person has a $45,000 tax bill. That\u2019s what they would have paid if we took this thinking seriously. If we were seriously going to say that every time your paper assets go up, such as house prices increase, that you are liable to pay tax on that, then we would have a very different tax system. And, actually, that is the policy of the Greens. The question is whether it is the policy of the Labour Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EDoes the Labour Party want to join the Greens in saying that people should pay tax on their paper asset gains? Should there be a tax on your house? I see Grant Robertson waving the bill at me while I\u2019m responding to members who have contributed to the debate. And if Grant Robertson doesn\u2019t like the members contributing to the debate, he\u2019d better think about how to win back Wellington Central from them. That\u2019s the real problem he\u2019s got.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003ESo that is the real question about tax principles\u2014are we serious about taxing wealth? Because the Green Party is very clear that they\u2019re coming after your house. I remember debating Julie Anne Genter in Epsom one day years ago, and the question was asked: how should a person who has a lot of assets, perhaps a widow who has recently lost their partner, pay for the Greens\u2019 wealth tax on their house? And Julie Anne Genter told the audience, \u201COh well, maybe they could get a reverse mortgage,\u201D and you could hear the air getting sucked out of the room. She hasn\u2019t said it again, I\u2019ve got to say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EBut that is where these tax principles take us. The problem that the Green Party has, and the Labour Party for that matter, is that none of their own policies would actually adhere to these principles, because these parties want to start using tax not as a way to raise revenue, not in a way to be fair, not in a way to be efficient\u2014they want to add new taxes that will go after your assets and if you don\u2019t have the money to pay, they\u2019ll put you on a reverse mortgage and start bleeding you dry. That\u2019s what these guys really believe, and that is why the Taxation Principles Reporting Act, which we\u2019re repealing today, makes no difference\u2014because the parties opposite who brought this legislation in then went and wrote tax policies and campaigned on policies that would never be consistent with the Taxation Principles Reporting Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EI see a new member over there from the Greens who\u2019s frowning at me, thinking, \u201CDoes this make sense? Was that really our policy?\u201D Well, let me explain to her how it works. Actually, the Green Party\u2019s policy is that you pay 1.5 percent wealth tax on assets in trust. So you\u2019ve got two people, one owns a home, one owns a home that they\u2019ve put in trust, and if you\u2019ve put your home in a trust because you\u2019re worried that your kid is getting married and you don\u2019t want them to lose their asset in a settlement when it\u2019s their inheritance from you, you pay 1.5 percent. The person that keeps the house in their own ownership doesn\u2019t pay the 1.5 percent. So that\u2019s one Green Party policy that would fail the horizonal equity test. So they voted for the legislation and then they campaigned on a policy that would fail the first test.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EAnd here\u2019s another one. They say that if you have $4 million of wealth, you pay 2.5 percent as a couple but you pay only 2.5 percent on $2 million of wealth if you\u2019re single. So what happens to an older couple who might have $3 million of wealth that they\u2019ve worked their whole life for, they\u2019ve got a nice house, they\u2019ve got some retirement savings, their $3 million is not taxable because it\u2019s under $4 million. All of a sudden, one partner dies\u2014that can happen with elderly couples\u2014and all of a sudden one of those people is liable for 2.5 percent on the extra million dollars, a $25,000 a year tax bill for that elderly lady who\u2019s grieving the loss of her husband under the Greens\u2019 tax policy. Now, is that equitable? Oh, here we go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d087b1879e7d41bab37d0545ff7eb111\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I just wanted to raise with you a question because it seems to me that the member currently speaking is not speaking to the bill at all but is talking about imagined conversations from 10 years ago, policies from other parties that they campaigned on. It\u2019s very interesting and I\u2019m glad that he\u2019s promoting our policies, but it\u2019s not really in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022495f160c3d2f4513ba4a690f5a44c514\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, Madam Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3eb15b7b32d42b1903a3994d00de8d4\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Can I first of all say I am actually hearing the member who has been on his feet talking about tax principles, and the bill is about tax principles reporting, so unless the member has something further to add to the point or order, I\u2019d ask you to carry on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022840ad490ba68491a80f813935fbb9a31\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I do, Madam Speaker. In raising the point of order, Julie Anne Genter said that the conversation I assume she was referring to, events where she told a group of my Epsom constituents to get a reverse mortgage, was an imagined conversation. I just want to put it on the record that that actually happened, and for her not to take me at my word and accuse me of lying is wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdc636cb71f8434c8be13f377cef209b\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I\u2019m sorry; that\u2019s not a point of order. I\u2019m sorry, I was talking and I missed that comment when I was speaking to the Clerk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a39a4580de9d4096aa43110b5bf74b24\u0022\u003EDAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I think that people watching at home can take heed of the fact that the Green Party is the only party I know that has just tried to shut down a discussion about its own tax policy. But it\u2019s kind of understandable. The point that Julie Anne Genter was not following along is that the Green Party voted for the Taxation Principles Reporting Act and then ran the election on policies, and had they been successful they would no doubt have tried to implement policies that violate the Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThat is why we oppose it\u2014because even the people who believe in it don\u2019t follow it. Why would it make any difference for this Parliament to require the IRD to go to great expense to prepare a report every year when even the people whose idea it was don\u2019t agree with it and don\u2019t follow it? If it can\u2019t have any influence on the Green Party, who think it\u2019s desperately necessary to have this law, then how can it possibly have an effect on anyone else? They don\u2019t do it; why would anyone else?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s another point that maybe needs to be considered. The Labour Party and the Green Party were in Government for six years, and not a single report was produced under the Taxation Principles Reporting Act. As we heard earlier, the first report is due at the end of this year. So how is it possible that the Labour Party and the Green Party are sitting here desperately telling us that we have to have this legislation, when they themselves governed without it for six years? They cannot be sincere when they believe that this is important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EOn this side of the House, we are interested in saving the taxpayer money. We are interested in a smaller, more efficient Government. We are interested in removing red tape, regulation, and bureaucracy wherever we find it. Taking a few hours to debate the removal of the Taxation Principles Reporting Act is a very good example of this Government getting to work and saving money so that people sitting at home can actually have some more money left at the end of the week and spend less of their time funding pointless bureaucracy and stupid law that even the people who came up with it and supported it do not believe in, because even they don\u2019t follow it in their own policy. As an added Christmas bonus, the Green Party are over there and they\u2019re not going to be taxing a house. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022 data-id=\u00220b64eb9adbb54c58b3a175a4a62603c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b64eb9adbb54c58b3a175a4a62603c7\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you Madam Speaker. Look, what is very, very clear from the select committee report is that it was only a majority report in favour. In other words, it was contentious at the time. We\u2019ve heard suggested from the Opposition benches that this is in some ways some sort of slight on the hard-working staff at the IRD, which clearly it is not; it\u2019s just about whether this piece of reporting needs to be done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EI think we\u2019ve also heard from the Opposition a lot of discussion about the principles which are there, and I don\u2019t think, again, you\u2019ve heard any disagreement with those principles. They\u2019re good principles. The question is do you need to report on those principles under the Act? I think we\u2019ve also heard some very interesting discussion about whether some of the party\u2019s policies that are around here would actually meet some of those principles. And I was interested that the Hon David Seymour didn\u2019t also highlight the boondoggles that were around GST, which clearly would not\u2014clearly would not have met those principles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EI think the key thing here is whether those principles need to be reported under this Act. If you look at the regulatory impact statement it\u2019s quite clear. Obviously it\u2019s from the IRD, and they say that following the select committee and bill process \u201Cit became apparent that the final reporting framework did not have broad support. It is, therefore, unlikely that the framework will prove enduring\u201D. They then go on to say \u201CThe Act, therefore, is unlikely to be effective in achieving its purposes. In Inland Revenue\u2019s view, this indicates the anticipated benefits of the Act are unlikely to be fully realised.\u201D Now, they\u2019d obviously started off saying this was something that they thought was worth doing and then they came to the view that maybe after this process it wasn\u2019t, which I think is interesting. Then they also say, well, look, we can still provide information there and \u201CInland Revenue intends to consider means of improving its current reporting under the Tax Administration Act 1994.\u201D So they can still report on the things that they deem are important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EThe Hon Deborah Russell said that the important thing here is the transparency of the tax system. Actually, I think the thing that is much more exercising the public\u2019s mind is the transparency of the expenditure that goes on by Government. We\u2019ve seen the recent report by the Auditor-General, which cast some severe doubt about that in some areas. I think the other thing which is sitting behind this relatively harmless looking piece of legislation in many ways is more about how people might want to spend, or how people might want to tax\u2014how different parties might want to tax New Zealanders in the future. I think really what it comes down to is an issue of trust. I think that many New Zealanders do not trust that Government, given information\u2014given powers, would not misuse that to really severely impact on them, and we\u2019ve heard the example that we\u2019ve just had about a couple with a $3 million house and what would happen if one of the couple dies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EI think really this is about the public\u2019s confidence and trust in this Parliament and in Governments to make sure they do not overreach themselves into people\u2019s lives. Thank you, Madam Speaker; I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c1689b584a504a84803f18bf5d172366\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c1689b584a504a84803f18bf5d172366\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call the Hon James Shaw, this is normally a split call and I just want to clarify for the House that I have a letter from the Ma\u014Dri Party giving their five minutes to the Green Party. So James Shaw will have the option of a 10-minute call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u0022b59dd8514cb94e219f8383f751e26865\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b59dd8514cb94e219f8383f751e26865\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much. I think this is very important that we debate this properly, because obviously we don\u2019t have proper full parliamentary scrutiny due to the use of the urgency process to kind of sneak this in before the Christmas break. So I\u2019d encourage the Minister of Revenue to buckle up, because this is his first piece of legislation that he\u2019s presenting to the House, and clearly the removal of transparency and openness as the very first act of the new Minister of Revenue I find kind of remarkable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EI actually just wanted to respond to some of the points that I\u2019ve heard in the debate just now. So the member for New Zealand First, Andy Foster, was just talking about trust and confidence and how important it is for New Zealanders to have trust and confidence in their Government and in their Parliament. I think the idea that you would take away transparency, take away evidence, take away data, take away that information, take away openness about the nature of our tax system is not a very good way of building trust and confidence. Trust and confidence actually come from having public information that is objective and publicly available, having information that is open and transparent, being able to form opinions about what is going on here. In fact, this Government is doing the exact opposite of building trust and confidence by removing data and information, which is directly contrary to their own coalition agreement principles that say that decisions will be based on data and information\u2014except apparently data and information that they don\u2019t like, such as information about the tax system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EThe other thing that I wanted to respond to that Andy Foster had talked about was he said that he thought that New Zealanders would be exercised about the transparency of expenditure of the Government. And that is fair\u2014that is fair. They are exercised about that. But it is inconsistent to say that they will not also be exercised about transparency around revenue, because revenue is how you are able to get expenditure. The two are inextricably linked. The idea that you would actually take away transparency and openness around revenue because you think that they\u2019re more exercised about transparency around expenditure is an incoherent argument. It is not an argument for the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EOne of the points that David Seymour raised in his intervention earlier was he raised a point that some of the tax policies that some of the parties took to the election campaign were inconsistent with the principles in the Act. I would agree with him on that point. That is an argument for the Act, because if nobody disagrees with the principles in the Act itself, having some information in the public domain about how the country is doing in relation to those principles you would think would, over time, start to encourage political parties to develop policies that are coherent with those policies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EIn fact, I would argue\u2014and if David Parker were able to be here, I suspect he would argue\u2014that the point of the existing Act is to ensure that Parliament is better informed about the state of our tax system in relation to those principles, and that therefore that transparency and that openness about the tax system would start to inform Parliament and start to inform political parties and non-Government actors outside of the system who are informing us about the policies that we adopt here, in order to encourage them to start to develop policies that are more aligned with those principles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EIf you say, actually, we don\u2019t disagree with the principles, but we are going to remove information and data from the public domain about how the country is doing in relation to those principles, it means that we continue to operate in the dark. Now, that is inconsistent with, for example, the Fiscal Responsibility Act that was brought in by a National Government in the 1990s, the very point of which was to raise transparency and openness about the state of Government finances, right? That was the point of that legislation. And now the same political parties that brought in legislation in relation to a structure around transparent information are now taking it away when it comes to the tax system. It is an utterly incoherent argument to make. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EThey say that the reason that they\u2019re doing that is because it\u2019s bureaucracy. We\u2019ve already heard a number of times in this House that there are 1\u00BD fulltime-equivalent people in the entire country whose job it is to execute this law, so it will make zero difference\u2014zero difference at all\u2014to the ability of the Government to give tax cuts. It will make zero difference in the pockets of working New Zealanders, of middle and low income New Zealanders, at all, which is why I raised in the first reading speech: in whose interests is the repeal of this Act being taken?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EIn terms of the kind of spurious argument that the Act causes bureaucracy and waste, it does not. It creates transparency. It creates accountability. It highlights the inconsistencies that various political parties might have in their tax policies in relation to it. It runs entirely contrary to the coalition Government\u2019s own agreements between its parties around making their decisions on the basis of facts and evidence, because they are saying that they do not want facts and evidence in relation to the tax system. That would be inconvenient to them. That would be inconvenient to the people that they get their money from at the election campaign.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EI\u2019m yet to hear an argument from the other side that says that if they\u2014I mean, I\u2019ve heard a number of times that they say that they actually do agree with the principles. I have yet to hear an argument that says why less transparency makes more sense than more transparency. In fact, yesterday the new Minister of Finance, the Hon Nicola Willis, got up and issued her mini-mini-mini-Budget and in that was complaining about the lack of transparency in the Government accounts, even though those accounts are under legislation that requires a Government to report on the state of the books, and it is all there. And now what they\u2019re saying is they want more transparency on that side of the ledger but they don\u2019t want it on the revenue side of the ledger. Why is that? Why would they not want that transparency? In whose interest is it to obfuscate that information? In whose interests is it? [Interruption] This is working, Simon. Keep it up. This is really getting the House going. In whose interest is it that we take away that information from the public domain? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EI think the answers to that are obvious, but they will never admit to it, and so they give us these spurious arguments about how the Act is some kind of massive bureaucratic boondoggle because it requires 1\u00BD people to do some work about the state of the Government\u2019s revenue strategies and where we get our money from in order to be able to afford the things that New Zealanders expect their Government to pay for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ESo I would like to hear from the Government at some point how repealing this Act is consistent with their coalition agreements for decisions based on facts and evidence. I want to hear an argument on that line. I want to hear an argument from the political parties that complained about the openness and transparency of the last Government about how repealing this Act increases openness and transparency. We have yet to hear an argument that relates to that. I want to hear an argument from the Government side about why they think, if they agree with the principles that are in the Act, it is so important to repeal the Act. If they do not disagree, if they agree with those principles, then they have yet to lay out an argument why reporting on those principles is a bad thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EI have yet to hear a coherent argument about the exact line between if they think that this is bureaucracy, if they think it\u2019s waste, if they think it\u2019s\u2014how much money will be delivered into the pockets of New Zealanders as a result of this bill? If that is the argument that they are making, how much money will New Zealanders get in their pockets by the repeal of this Act? Because they fought an election campaign on the basis of cost of living and they have yet to make that argument.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u00226da1071d58c742fa826954dce7e414dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226da1071d58c742fa826954dce7e414dd\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. For the benefit of the new members in the House, I thought it would be helpful to get an understanding of where this, the original Act that we are now repealing, came from. It was a genesis\u2014an idea\u2014from the Hon David Parker, who is an enthusiastic follower of Thomas Piketty. He\u2019s the French economist, and for those who don\u2019t know his work, I suggest you look it up and it will explain all. So, on that note, I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0f24182c78a43bf91c1fa367a4ac7f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0f24182c78a43bf91c1fa367a4ac7f1\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I had to have a little bit of a giggle after that contribution from the chair of the Finance and Expenditure Committee\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022972bf6199fcb4df79dfbbe9bff579cb6\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: All 40 seconds of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c62142f9ba794ca5ac7f0e8033ca352c\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014a little bit of a giggle at the 40 seconds it took for the chair of the Finance and Expenditure Committee to provide a history as to the Taxation Principles Reporting Act 2023. So I\u2019m going to spend my contribution on the second reading of this bill which, again, has come under urgency with no select committee process\u2014and very much like the leader of the ACT Party, who spent his contribution deflecting transparency, deflecting the reason they should have this bill\u2014I\u2019m going to spend my contribution on providing the people of the public a history of the Taxation Principles Reporting Act 2023, and how we actually got to the point where this Government does not want to be transparent and does not want to be able to provide a reporting framework so that ordinary New Zealanders can understand the principles by which their tax policies, whatever they will be, will benefit them. Because that is the absolute purpose of this bill, despite a press release that is full of contradictories. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m going to provide to this House a reason and the background and the history of how we got to a Taxation Principles Reporting Act, which this bill now repeals, and actually, it goes way back\u2014before Thomas Piketty. It actually goes back to 1776, to Wealth of Nations, Adam Smith\u2019s magnum opus, Wealth of Nations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E The members on the other side of the House are getting exercised about this history lesson that I\u2019m just going to take them through. The reason why the members on that side of the House, from the Government, cannot provide a strong reason to remove the Taxation Reporting Principles Act is because those tax principles have been used throughout generations\u2014throughout centuries\u2014to be able to develop tax policy across the world. It then moved on\u2014and I\u2019m going to move history a little bit closer, a little bit closer to their home, maybe in 2010, when the Victoria University of Wellington Tax Working Group, which was led by the formidable Sir Rob McLeod\u2014he used to be a partner of Ernst \u0026amp; Young and he\u2019s still very much an active commentator on the tax community, isn\u2019t he, Dr Russell and Dr Webb? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThat also then led to another review in 2019 by the previous Government, which was the Tax Working Group, to assess the design of New Zealand\u2019s tax system. Time and time again, throughout the ages, throughout centuries, throughout decades, and throughout different Governments\u2014including members who are still in this House, who have throughout those different tax working groups\u2014New Zealand has grappled with this question of fairness and where does the incidence of tax fall in New Zealand. That\u2019s why there have been millions of dollars spent over generations and decades to try and grapple with this question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ESo what this Government then did, back in 2011, was we asked the question: \u201CWhat is the problem that we\u2019re trying to solve? Can we save the public of New Zealand millions of monies in the future by being able to have a data set, to be able to have a framework in which these principles, which we have used over the decades through various economists who have written many books over this?\u201D. We asked, \u201CIs there a way to futureproof it so that it doesn\u2019t matter who is in Government, they can use this framework in order to develop tax policy in New Zealand so that it is fair?\u201D. Because I will admit, fairness has a different definition depending on which side of the House you\u2019re on. I\u2019m not going to say whether that\u2019s right or wrong, although I definitely agree with this side of the House. But fairness has different definitions, and the tax principles therefore try to draw out from those centuries of history, the centuries of economists\u2019 views\u2014basically, what have been the principles that this country has used to develop tax policy since, I think, the late 1800s when our first land tax was actually the first income tax that New Zealand ever had. So what this side of the House then managed to draw out was the different principles which we have used. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThen if you look at the regulatory impact statement for that first Act, it says that Governments around the world are currently facing similar challenges in the form of rising inflation and supply chain shortages, therefore putting pressure on the economy and revenue collection. It then carries on in the form of rising inflation and supply chain shortages, therefore putting pressure on the economy and revenue collection. It then carries on\u2014there are also impacts from technological changes and the impacts of climate change and the changing nature of work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EBasically, that Act provided the background and the history in which the context that the previous Government was grappling with as well as other Governments across the world\u2014and then it covers out through the different reviews that we continued with. But actually, what that regulatory impact statement also referred to\u2014and I\u2019ve met different members across the House who have referred to this\u2014is that the Government then tasked Inland Revenue with collecting information to determine the effective average tax rate paid by the wealthiest people relative to their economic income. Now, this is important, because economic income\u2014yes, it may be on paper, but at any point it can be realised, so we wanted to understand where is that incidence of tax falling. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThe Inland Revenue high-wealth individuals research project revealed a startling disparity, and this is a world first, another world first that provided data and evidence to show that there is a startling disparity between the effective tax rates paid by the super wealthy compared with other New Zealanders. Everybody across the House may have a different definition of tax, but actually, that high-wealth individuals project provided the data and evidence. It was a world-first\u2014such a world-first that other revenue jurisdictions were actually asking us: \u201CHow did you do it? How did you manage to get this data\u2014because we have been grappling with this as well; we have the same challenges post-COVID, we have the same challenges with climate change.\u201D So we were a world leader. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThat individuals project again basically compared the full income of the super wealthy. What it showed was that on full income information from 311 of our wealthiest citizens, the average person in this group pays an effective tax rate of just 8.9 percent tax on their economic income. In contrast, most New Zealanders\u2014and I\u2019m going to hear, probably, time and time again in this House in adjournment debates, us thanking the cleaners; us thanking the security guards. Well actually, those salary and wage earners\u2014if someone earns a salary of $80,000, with no other income, they pay 22 percent tax on that income. That excludes GST. Now, if you add GST, the wealthiest\u2014their effective tax rate rises to 9.5 percent, but you know what? For the other New Zealanders, if you include GST, it goes up to 28 or 29 percent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThat is the evidence and the data that showed that it was unfair. So the Tax Reporting Principles Act therefore tried to provide a reporting framework to show this unfairness\u2014or, actually, just to show what\u2019s happening, because maybe it wasn\u2019t going to be unfair if they did more data. A major obstacle to understanding that unfairness that that project brought out has been the lack of reliable data. So what this Act wanted to do is basically\u2014we\u2019re already framing tax policy based on those principles. Governments across the centuries have been making tax policies based on those principles. What happened was, the previous Government said, \u201CLet\u2019s put that down on to paper so that we can communicate it to the average Kiwi so they can understand, so that that cleaner and security guard, or those who are earning $80,000 who are having to pay more tax than the super wealthy in our country, can at least know that the decision makers here in this Chamber know that they have an ability to be able to have some fairness in this system\u201D, and that\u2019s what that reporting framework is going to provide. It was going to provide the data and the evidence and the transparency which that side of the House has proven over the last two weeks not to contain. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThat is why, again, days before Christmas, when a draft report is likely to have been written, they do not want to release that report under this framework. That is why they are rushing this legislation through. But this side of the House absolutely believes that New Zealanders need to know where the incidence of tax is falling. That is why we are fighting hard to ensure that there is transparency. It doesn\u2019t really matter what that side of the House want to say to Kiwis about cost of living\u2014it is really clear by their actions, and their actions matter\u2014that they want to push under urgency something that will help the fairness of our system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022 data-id=\u0022cfc28971d21042d08a81f9eeb029be29\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cfc28971d21042d08a81f9eeb029be29\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you. I support the second reading of this bill. On this side of the House, we are focused on what truly matters to hard-working New Zealanders, and that is less tax and a fair tax system. Requiring Inland Revenue to produce additional annual reports would take extra resources, and we would be focusing on the wrong things. We need to get back to the priorities, and that is reducing the cost of living and getting the Government\u2019s books back in order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003EThe members on the other side of the House talked about how us as new members had little political experience in Parliament. But what I will tell you is that we have a lot of experience working hard in the real world, running businesses, working real jobs, rolling our sleeves up in the orchards and on the farms, being efficient, but being challenged by paying more tax and having more bureaucracy. We understand that to strengthen our economy and reduce the cost of living we need tax relief and less bureaucracy and less redundant reporting. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u002276bd80e1ca994b29a9a050b975c5e2d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002276bd80e1ca994b29a9a050b975c5e2d3\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a really sad, sad day to see one of my favourite pieces of legislation be so cynically pulled and repealed without a select committee process, and five days before Christmas. I would ask viewers at home to ask why are they repealing it\u2014why are they repealing it?\u2014and why are they doing so at this time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESecondly, I would like to raise the issue of accountability, and this is an area that I really plan to interrogate with the Minister in the committee stage. Because what this Act did\u2014the one that is being repealed\u2014is it gave a beautiful coherence to the architecture of our financial system. Andy Foster, on the other side, raised the issue of accountability. Well, what they are doing by repealing this bill is taking away that accountability on the taxation side.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard in the House today that some of the reasons that they may be repealing it is a fear of data. Now, why would the Government be scared of data? Perhaps it\u2019s not; perhaps they are scared of fairness. And if we look at the timing of the bill, as has been alluded to, there is very likely to be a report sitting in the Minister\u2019s office that contains information that they don\u2019t want the public to see. Is that transparent and is it fair? What is in that report that they are so worried about? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard it would be bureaucratic to keep this legislation in place. Two and a half staff members\u2014that\u2019s far fewer, I would say, than those that would be needed to change all the road signs around New Zealand into English first. Although, obviously, Chris Bishop didn\u2019t get the memo because he is still calling it K\u0101inga Ora. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThis bill that we\u2019re appealing helps to inform decisions. It\u2019s around data and information, and we haven\u2019t seen data information in the tax arena. Look at the tax cuts that the Minister of Finance is proposing. There is still no detail as to how they will be paid, despite her repeated promises that she would say how she was going to fund those tax cuts; that information is not out there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThe question that I will have for the Minister is: how will the tax system be accountable to the budgets that it funds? This was raised really eloquently by the Hon James Shaw. Because we have accountability in the budgeting process, but when it comes to taxation, we don\u2019t have a way of understanding how decisions are being made. There is no transparency around the different pillars around fairness. Now, the Act does not purport to say what is fair; what it does is say that the information will be available so that New Zealanders can see for themselves that decisions are being made according to different principles and those principles will have different weightings. That is what accountability in the tax system looks like. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThere was a small change that we made in the select committee, which I was really proud of because we added the words \u201Ccomparative wellbeing\u201D into the principle that was around flexibility and adaptability. That talked about changes in inequality, it referred to the extent to which the tax system keeps pace with technology and so on, and it referred to inequality\u2014and we added \u201Cor comparative wellbeing\u201D. Now, the reason that\u2019s significant\u2014and I\u2019d really like to hear the Minister\u2019s views on this when we question him about it\u2014is because wellbeing was also put into the Public Finance Act 1989, in 2020, under section 26M(2)(aa). That meant that there would be reports done on the Living Standards Framework which would show the level of wellbeing being achieved by budgeting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ETo have that at the outcome end is one thing, but to have it at the input end\u2014at the taxation end\u2014gives the system a coherence. It means that all the way through the financial system there is a wellbeing lens across it. The Auditor-General has said it is not to make substantive judgments about whether wellbeing has been achieved; it is to inform public discussion so the public can ultimately hold Governments to account in how money is spent. Well, the same should be true as to how money is gathered, and that\u2019s what this report would allow. It would allow those discussions and their engagement, which ultimately leads to more trust in the system, and it enables taxpayers to have certainty about which principles are at stake. That comes up every three years during an election cycle. If they don\u2019t like the way those principles are being applied, they can change the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t understand why this Government is so scared of having that level of accountability. It\u2019s something the Auditor-General wants. We are very disappointed in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022877e2584e2cb413eb7cf04eaa70c8995\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022877e2584e2cb413eb7cf04eaa70c8995\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022 data-id=\u00221c9adce07dc2439899f3238df8cb9870\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221c9adce07dc2439899f3238df8cb9870\u0022\u003ENANCY LU (National):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support the second reading of this bill. Members opposite previously talked about a small amount of fulltime-equivalents being an insignificant cost to the Inland Revenue\u2019s total employees. However, we are not just talking about the cost this year but actually going forward, and we\u2019re repealing this bill to save cost and time going forward. This is what a National-led coalition Government is about: saving cost and reprioritising our service for the betterment of our country and our people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003EKiwis don\u2019t need Inland Revenue to produce additional reports, and so our focus should be on higher-priority measures to address the cost of living pressures and get the Government\u2019s books back in order. So I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022a6820da705de43d9a803d9d65f3cc903\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a6820da705de43d9a803d9d65f3cc903\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Madam Speaker. Well, it\u2019s a sad day when the Government calls urgency to repeal a bill which its great evil, according to the other side, is to find out how we\u2019re doing in our tax system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThis is a Government which has said in its coalition agreements that it wants to be evidence-based, but in this most important area of all, it\u2019s hiding from the evidence. What is it that they don\u2019t want to know? What is it that the people who are influencing them don\u2019t want them to know?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EWe heard from Barbara Edmonds moments ago that the IRD itself independently studied our richest New Zealanders and found the huge disparity in our tax system. Is that what they don\u2019t want to know? What is so dangerous about knowing whether our tax system is equitable? What is so horrific about understanding whether we have horizontal and vertical equity? What is so dangerous about knowing that our richest New Zealanders don\u2019t pay their fair share?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EWell, I can understand why they don\u2019t want to know that, because we\u2019ve seen their tax policy already, which is to let the richest New Zealanders off the hook. There are landlords out there that are going to get a million-dollar tax break because of the tax changes that Government wants to put into place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThis study would show that the fairness of our tax system will go backwards under that Government, and it\u2019s no surprise that they don\u2019t want to know it. Do they want to improve our tax system? Absolutely not. That\u2019s why they don\u2019t want to measure it. If you don\u2019t measure it, you can\u2019t improve it. So of course they don\u2019t want to know whether or not we\u2019ve got an improving and a fair and an equitable tax system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EAre they scared? Are they scared of understanding that capital is being preferred over labour? That workers are paying the lion\u2019s share of the tax whilst the owners of capital, who sit on capital increase, don\u2019t get taxed at all? On this side of the House, we want to know. We want to know who\u2019s paying tax and how fair it is, because we are committed to a progressive, forward-looking tax system that changes with society. The dinosaurs over there want to leave the tax system largely as it is, which is inequitable, which doesn\u2019t look after those that need the most, which makes those who can\u2019t bear the burden shoulder the lion\u2019s share.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo why is it that they want to shield their eyes from the fact that there are dirty tax breaks that their mates are taking advantage of? We want to have an IRD which is equipped, prepared, and authorised to look into that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThat Minister there is presiding over a system where the very integrity of the tax system is at risk. He should be utterly ashamed of himself, here under urgency, through the last sitting days of the year, ushering through as quietly as he can an unfair tax system, a system which is less transparent than it should be. And that is going to be the first thing that he does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo why is it that they\u2019re in trepidation of it being known that the top 1 percent of New Zealanders, in terms of wealth, are paying around about 9 percent of their economic income annually in tax, whereas, as Barbara Edmonds said, a worker on the average wage pays around 28 percent? Is that equitable? Is that fair? He knows it\u2019s not, but it\u2019s his mates that are getting the benefit of this system, so he wants to brush it under the carpet. It\u2019s a Government that doesn\u2019t want to know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EWe know the work\u2019s been done. We know there\u2019s a draft report. I\u2019m sure the Minister will be happy to release it. Will you release the report\u2014will you release the draft report? Do you want to answer? I\u2019ll yield if you answer. The Minister is sitting there po-faced because he doesn\u2019t want to answer the question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EHere\u2019s the other question. Why are we repealing all of this Act? Which principle is it that he doesn\u2019t like? Is it the principle of horizontal equity? Is it the idea that people in a similar position should pay similar tax? Possibly not. Much more likely it\u2019s vertical equity\u2014the fact that people who have more should pay more, because we know that doesn\u2019t happen at the moment, and this Government, the Government on the other side of the House, doesn\u2019t want to address that issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EDavid Parker laid the foundations with a study of the wealthiest New Zealanders, with the passing of this Act, to make substantial changes to our tax system. The evidence is there. Whilst on the other side of the House they talk about it not being legitimate in some way, it\u2019s an independent study using verifiable information that itself was not previously available, but we changed the law to make it possible to look at those wealthy New Zealanders. So the foundations are laid, but over there they just don\u2019t want to know. They want to keep it on the low-down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EWhat I want to know is what that Government is going to do in terms of understanding these inequities, these imbalances in our tax system? Even the tax breaks that they\u2019re now going to create, the landlord\u2019s tax breaks, the deductibility of interest\u2014we know what that\u2019s done to the market. We saw the housing market price increases. We saw the crisis in house prices, which were contributed to by the fact that landlords were getting tax breaks on interest payments. We know that one of the things that\u2019s going to happen when they restore that tax break is that house prices will go up. So much for caring about ordinary New Zealanders, because under that Government, homeownership will be further away for many homebuyers. Of course what they\u2019ll be doing is lining the pockets of their landlord mates who\u2019ll buy more houses and deprive first-home buyers of their first home.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo once again we see a Government that doesn\u2019t really care about the effects that the tax system has on the wider economy. They\u2019re going to be preferring landlords over renters. They\u2019re going to be preferring landlords over first-home buyers. And are we going to see this tax break? Are we going to see rents go down? Not even the Prime Minister will lower his rents. He won\u2019t commit to that on his rental properties. I wonder if the Minister has a few rental properties that he\u2019d like to talk about. Well, he\u2019ll get another opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EBecause we know these parties\u2014well, at least the ACT Party, at least they\u2019re upfront. They just don\u2019t like tax. They just want lower taxes. They want flat and low taxes. Have a look at their policy platforms. So at least they\u2019re upfront about it. As for New Zealand First, on the other hand, well, we know that the influences on them see them doing things like pushing for a roll-back of smoke-free and a roll-back of careful labelling of therapeutic products. Over there they\u2019re a little more behind the scenes. They don\u2019t want us to know who their backers are. They don\u2019t want us to know why it is that they\u2019re fronting for landlords, but we do know that they\u2019re looking after their mates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s no surprise to me that when we look at the tax principles, tax principles which they say\u2014and I loved the comment that we don\u2019t all agree what fairness means. Well, I\u2019ll tell you what, you\u2019re on your own there, mate. I\u2019ve got a pretty good idea that a progressive tax system is a fair tax system. These principles have not come out of nowhere. They\u2019re widely and internationally accepted. Over there we have an island of unfairness. It\u2019s a shameful example where we\u2019ve got a bunch of people who say \u201CWe don\u2019t believe in an equitable tax system. We don\u2019t believe in a tax system that doesn\u2019t distort. We don\u2019t believe in a tax system that isn\u2019t efficient. We don\u2019t believe in a tax system that\u2019s flexible and adaptable, certain and predictable.\u201D These are the principles they don\u2019t believe in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo that Minister\u2019s got some real answering to do. I\u2019m looking forward to the committee of the whole House stage and I\u2019m looking forward to the Minister answering some questions on exactly those matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022 data-id=\u0022711d744d691f470b8d0a404acbf5ad35\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022711d744d691f470b8d0a404acbf5ad35\u0022\u003EDAVID MacLEOD (National\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289e886d4ac2e42689d688684a889cd3a\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Here we go: 30 seconds of magic!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022437a1b8d02a0472eac8f0c3679f8b09d\u0022\u003EDAVID MacLEOD\u003C/span\u003E: You know, I was just closing my eyes just for a moment, and I could have sworn that\u2019s what a speech from Karl Marx would have sounded like. I stand in support of this Taxation Principles Reporting Act Repeal Bill. This National-led coalition Government doesn\u2019t need a tax principles Act to tell us our principles of tax. Our principles on tax are very simple: Kiwis should pay less of it. And that\u2019s just what this Government is planning to do. And you\u2019re absolutely right\u201430 seconds. I stand here, and I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022548dd62ce6ac469a8d9bc00ee5348db9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Taxation Principles Reporting Act Repeal Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000300\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00224f7e6c512af94e8ea54198cd7b338a3d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f7e6c512af94e8ea54198cd7b338a3d\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for committee stage immediately. I declare the House in committee for consideration of the Taxation Principles Reporting Act Repeal Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a9376a6c93ae43f984a8a5b77caf56b1\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226366bfd9faec49889da1fbd27589d4ea\u0022\u003EPart 1  Repeal of this Act\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002204c56379cc0642ebbb57c25df1072839\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204c56379cc0642ebbb57c25df1072839\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Taxation Principles Reporting Act Repeal Bill. I will start by reminding members that wording of the closure motion has changed in this Parliament. The new wording is, \u201CThat debate on this question now close.\u201D I refer members to Standing Order 137(1). Members, we come first to Part 1. This is the debate on clause 3, \u201CRepeal of this Act\u201D. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee74a141772744e8bd92f5afe32c979f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee74a141772744e8bd92f5afe32c979f\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, I thank you for the call, although it may not be in my long-term interests that you\u2019ve given it to me. Part 1 of the bill repeals this Act, and I want to start with a very simple question for the Minister, and that is: why do we have this clause? We\u2019ve been in the House over the course of the last\u2014well, it\u2019s three or four days and then last week with the Government\u2019s agenda of repealing anything it can find. None of the bills that have done that has included this type of clause. They\u2019ve done repeals, but they don\u2019t repeal the repeal. Just to be really clear, that\u2019s what this clause is doing. What this clause does is repeal this bill. It\u2019s kind of remarkable in its own way. It does give a date for that, which is 1 January 2025. I reckon I might know the answer to this question, but it is actually a genuine question for the Minister, because all the other bills that we\u2019ve done that repealed all sorts of really good and important things that the previous Government did didn\u2019t have a clause that repealed themselves. I think we\u2019ve just got an epidemic of repeal. The Government is so excited about repealing things that they\u2019re going to repeal their own bills as well as the Acts that they were repealing before. So that\u2019s exactly what clause 3 of the bill does. It repeals the repeal. Now, we\u2019re going to get ourselves into some pretty farcical territory shortly, so I would like to know from the Minister: why do we have clause 3?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022196b5c6994bc4aa7a83924510513b260\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022196b5c6994bc4aa7a83924510513b260\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I was interested in this repeal clause as well because, as the Hon Grant Robertson says, it states \u201Con 1 January 2025.\u201D It\u2019s interesting because, reading through the bill, I sort of said, \u201CHang on a second, why that repeal date?\u201D It took me a while to sort it through because it is an unusual clause. The thing is that in the Act that this bill is repealing\u2014so in the Taxation Principles Reporting Act 2023\u2014in section 10(1) of the Act which is being repealed by this bill, it says that, \u201CThe Commissioner must give the Minister an interim Commissioner\u2019s report annually, before the end of a calendar year, for the tax year that ends in the calendar year, using the best information that the Commissioner has on hand at that time.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s all quite confusing because we\u2019ve now got three dates in play: we\u2019ve got a calendar year and we\u2019ve got a tax year and then we\u2019ve got the date that this bill is coming into the repeal. Now, ordinarily, I was thinking that if we\u2019re repealing an Act, you\u2019d expect to see a specific date for that Act. But instead, we\u2019ve got the tax year, the calendar year, interim reports\u2014so a whole lot of stuff floating around. I could work it out\u2014it took a while, but I worked it out to see what was going on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218dc2b8cc6d24f92b5ee3db3128c6a5c\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t do his work for him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215eb863b3e18410cbd7d6bf2450c3525\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: But it was confusing in respect to\u2014no, no, I\u2019ve got the tax year, the calendar year, and that repeal date. So I would like the Minister to explain it for the benefit of this House. I think he needs to explain to this House why we have those several dates in play, to make it clear for all of us what we\u2019re actually talking about here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EAfter all, he\u2019s the one with the officials and he\u2019s the one who\u2019s promoting this. So I would expect him to be able to explain it for the benefit of those of us here in the House and also for those who are watching at home\u2014hi Dad, I know you\u2019ll be watching; daughter of a tax person, it\u2019s genetic. So I would actually like the Minister to explain that to us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo that clause, section 10(1) in the Act which is being repealed, the dates in there, how the calendar year and the tax year relate, and then how that relates to this date of 1 January 2025, which is in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u002290eb0dd96762462394a932d018e4605c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002290eb0dd96762462394a932d018e4605c\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Green\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just note that this clause 3 in Part 1 of the Taxation Principles Reporting Act Repeal Bill is of course a very narrow clause. But I think it is very important to take it into the full context of the legislation that we are speaking about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo just for those who are following along at home, such as Dr Deborah Russell\u2019s father, what this clause states is that this Act\u2014this Act itself which the Minister is seeking to pass today will itself be automatically repealed from our statute book on 1 January 2025. It is effectively a repeal of the repealment Act. Which means, if I\u2019m to take it correctly, they are here seeking not only to do the undoing of this legislation, but to leave it without a trace on our statute book; to hide away the proof that they have repealed legislation which would have enabled New Zealanders to have consistent and clear reporting on the efficacy and operation of our taxation system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo my question for the Minister is: why is it that he is seeking to repeal the repealment legislation? Is it that my intuition on this point is correct, that he is seeking not only to do this deed but to do it in such a way that it is now gone without a sense of any trace or any ability or any evidence\u2014evidence and data mind, that this had happened in the first place?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022371abeba15714c68b418d890b20b6737\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022371abeba15714c68b418d890b20b6737\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Oh thank you. I think you\u2019re right, Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick, that they\u2019re simply covering their tracks here. But I guess mine\u2019s a technical question. I\u2019m pretty sure, but I\u2019d like the Minister\u2019s assurance\u2014and also kind of the authority for the point\u2014because, of course, repealing a repeal: does that put you back essentially to the status quo ex ante? That is to say: does that un-repeal the Taxation Principles Reporting Act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, I suspect that that\u2019s not the case\u2014and I think, somewhere in the mists of time, I remember that the repeal of a repeal doesn\u2019t un-repeal the repeal\u2014but I think it\u2019s quite important, seeing that you are going to repeal a repeal, that you explain exactly how it is that that doesn\u2019t put us back to the status quo ex ante and the Taxation Principles Reporting Act springs back to life? Whilst that would be a good thing, I suspect that\u2019s unlikely. But I would like you to confirm exactly how that is the case. Let me know if you need a hand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022f9e811b6779a4cd0a6a44149c43147d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f9e811b6779a4cd0a6a44149c43147d9\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, for the opportunity to take this first call in the debate. I have an amendment to this clause 3 of Part 1 to propose to the Minister, and I hope you will consider it. I have been in a select committee context with the Minister before, and I commend him on his discursive approach within those select committee rooms. I hope that he will consider this amendment, because it would allow that kind of engagement which he himself is very good at around the table of a select committee to determine which way forward this Parliament can take to finding a broader-based tax system and one that works for everyone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo my amendment reads, \u201CIn clause 3, delete the words after \u2018repealed\u2019 and insert, \u2018on whichever date occurs first\u2014(a) 1 January 2026, or (b) the day after an inquiry of a committee of the House of Representatives is reported back to the House of Representatives on those parts of the Taxation Principles Reporting Act that should be given effect in policy\u2019.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI haven\u2019t suggested that any part of this bill be retained. What I\u2019m suggesting for the House is that the House consider a select committee piece of work to determine what principles within the Act, particularly in Schedule 1, should be retained within the commissioner\u2019s policy remit. All of these things in Schedule 1 are things that the commissioner should be taking into account and should have some consideration of in the course of their ordinary work\u2014that\u2019s a given. In the course of the public service that Inland Revenue provides to the people of New Zealand, that would continue within the department itself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWhat I\u2019m seeking to do here is for the select committee to be able to inquire into how to retain the principles in some form of policy that is publicly available, which members of Parliament can use to, say, consider policy options when having these sorts of tax debates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI would suggest, myself, that there is a place for this schedule to be retained as a new Schedule 9 to the Tax Administration Act, however I haven\u2019t proposed that here. What I\u2019m asking for is that the Minister might take a chance to consider that select committee\u2019s work as a way to find a bipartisan way forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI am going to continue this call because I know that there is something going on. So let me tell you, Minister, the opportunity for us to look into this as a select committee would be really warmly received, I think. You\u2019ll see that there are a number of colleagues on my side of the House who are enthusiastically taking calls in this committee stage. We have questions for you about how you seek to reach the principles that are provided in Schedule 1, and those are things that I think we can all probably agree on. Whether they are in primary legislation, regulations, or policy is a question that we all can engage on, that we can engage with experts on who might advise us of the right approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMinister, I know you will have read the works of people like Dr Craig Elliffe, who was my supervisor for my tax Master\u2019s. The kind of evidence that we can seek from the experts would be really good and we would love to have a discussion with you about that in the committee room. Thank you, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022090f0aabba7949bab00d8638dd2300ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022090f0aabba7949bab00d8638dd2300ba\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chair, thank you very much for the opportunity. I do appreciate a bit of time there; we had a little bit of an issue up here at the front desk, but I\u2019m glad that that\u2019s been resolved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EWhat is clear from the contributions\u2014I\u2019ll go through each of the members, but we\u2019ve obviously got a bit of duplication already on the same matter. Hon Grant Robertson, in terms of clause 3, around why we\u2019ve got that clause\u2014similar to the Hon Deborah Russell\u2019s points around the repeal\u2014member for Auckland Central, Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick, also noted around the repeal, and the Hon Duncan Webb\u2019s question was around the repeal. So let\u2019s cover the repeal point in clause 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ESo basically, clause 3\u2014and it is quite simple\u2014of this Act is repealed on 1 January 2025. The purpose of that clause\u2014and it\u2019s not the first piece of legislation that\u2019s had that in it; what it does ensure is that there is a period of time in which the bill and the legislation is and does remain within the public forum, on the IRD website for about a year, before it is moved off. This makes sure that, just as a courtesy to people, they can see that the bill has done its job for 2024, and before it is tidied away on 1 January 2025. So that\u2019s the purpose of the clause, nothing more complex than that. There is precedent around that, and that will cover off those four questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIn regards to the last question from Arena Williams in regards to her tabled amendment, which is in regards to the same aspect, the reality is that the first part of that clause, which is basically changing the name\u2014which doesn\u2019t seem aligned with the principles of the Act. Clause 2, in terms of adding an additional 18 months\u2014as I\u2019ve said there in clause 3 around deleting the words in terms of \u201C1 January 2026\u201D, it\u2019s not necessary for having such an elongated time for that bill to be up. One year is about right, based on the advice that we\u2019ve got, and so the suggestions in this amendment are something that we will not be supporting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022363e12efa88e465b9e9d55829a46147f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022363e12efa88e465b9e9d55829a46147f\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Minister for responding there, but I do believe he\u2019s opened up a number of questions on this part. The first of those for me is the choice of \u201Cone year for people to see that the Act has done its job.\u201D I think in the interests of transparency, New Zealanders deserve to know for time ad infinitum what\u2019s happened in this House today, because otherwise this fulfils the very thing that Opposition members spoke about in the first and second readings. That is that there seems to be a lack of transparency from the Government about tax policy. So the idea that clause 3 will make this entire debate that we\u2019re having this morning vanish. And magically, on 2 January 2025, when someone, perhaps Dr Russell\u2019s father, wakes up and says, \u201CWhat did they do to that tax principles Act?\u201D, and they will go and look, and there\u2019ll be nothing. In all seriousness, if the Government is so proud and so urgently bringing this law to the House, how on earth can clause 3 be the kind of thing that they would do for a matter that they considered to be so urgent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESo I think the Minister needs to give a bit more of an explanation beyond the idea that it\u2019s just a time period chosen so that people for a short period of time can know that an Act existed, as opposed for a longer period of time. I\u2019m not aware of the precedents that the Minister has mentioned, so I would also like him to tell us what precedents those are so that we can understand what the logic was for those laws, because I\u2019m not sure, but I would question whether or not they were Acts that were, for example, repealing something that was in place for a very short time, where the report in the case of this bill we know has been drafted and is ready to go. And it does beg that question that, actually, what the Minister is doing is trying to make sure this is scrubbed from history so that the questions won\u2019t continue to be asked about a report that clearly will have been finished and should be available to the New Zealand public. So I don\u2019t believe that the Minister has sufficiently answered the questions that I raised, and I would like him to answer these two questions: firstly, what are the other Acts that he\u2019s relying on for precedent? Secondly, why does he feel that on the 2 January 2025, no one deserves to know that this Act passed through Parliament?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u002240661e002e8642049449630509242f94\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240661e002e8642049449630509242f94\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Green\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koutou, e te M\u0101ngai. I just really wanted to continue prosecuting, particularly, this point on the repeal of this repeal Act, because it is a really, really important point when it comes to that trail of bread crumbs that is necessary for future lawyers and law students and politicians and people who may be interested in gathering the data and the evidence, which this Government has said that they are so intent on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EBecause just reflecting on the regulatory impact statement, which accompanies this legislation and is indeed quite light\u2014a good old two- to four-pager, which, you know, is quite an interesting contrast to the 17-odd pages of the regulatory impact statement for the initial legislation. But there\u2019s a point here under the header \u201CViews from consultation with stakeholders and the general public: Views of the general public\u201D, and I quote: \u201CDue to time constraints, no consultation with stakeholders was undertaken on the repeal of the Taxation Principles Reporting Act 2023.\u201D This is \u201Cno consultation with stakeholders \u2026 undertaken\u201D, no consultation whatsoever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EAnd now we have a clause here in the form of clause 3 saying that after a year on the statute book, there is going to be an automatic repeal of the evidence that this repeal occurred in the first place. We also have contained within this regulatory impact statement some really important points I think that we\u2019ll continue to prosecute throughout other clauses, but this is an important one, particularly, on that point that there has been no consultation. Now, there\u2019s an intent to repeal the repealment legislation, which is that \u201CInland Revenue\u201D\u2014here I\u2019m quoting\u2014\u201Cintends to consider means of improving its current reporting under the Tax Administration Act 1994, subject to internal resourcing and government priorities.\u201D From that, we are to assume that IRD is still going to undertake some form of reporting on something akin to something like these principles, yet we have no idea what format that might take, what resources might be necessary, despite also knowing that the only resources that are necessary for them to do the reporting against the legislation as it currently sits in the status quo of the statute book is 2.5 fulltime-equivalent, 0.06 percent of the IRD\u2019s staffing fulltime-equivalents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EBut this point, again, I really put to the Minister\u2014because there has been absolutely no consultation, as is here in black and white on the regulatory impact statement as issued to him\u2014that there has been no consultation with stakeholders undertaken. It has been one of his core points of contention in putting forward this legislation that there was some disconcert from some of the submitters with some of the principles throughout the fulsome select committee process that we undertook at the Finance and Expenditure Committee in the middle of this year. Yet now he\u2019s looking to remove this legislation and to then remove the removal of the legislation without a trace. It\u2019s a Houdini kind of endeavour, isn\u2019t it, Minister Watts? So I really want to ask him: what comes next from this point? If he is to remove the evidence that he removed this legislation from the statute book for transparency and accountability, what comes next?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022c3ed1217126f434ca402560c8f47fabd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c3ed1217126f434ca402560c8f47fabd\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chair, we\u2019ve had a lot of talk of repeal today and this is a really unappealing repeal of a repeal. I\u2019m going to appeal the unappealing repeal of the repeal\u2014there\u2019s a lot of peeling going on, like Christmas bells. It\u2019s kind of like \u201CDing Dong Merrily on High\u201D around here at the moment, isn\u2019t it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI just want to go back to the question I asked before, because the Minister did not answer it. He just explained the nature of the repeal clause again, but he did not answer the question that I asked, and it\u2019s actually quite an important one, because anyone reading this bill might look at that repeal clause and wonder what on earth is going on here because it simply refers to the Act. You have to go back through the definitions and things to find out what\u2019s going on. So I\u2019m going to refer the Minister back to section 10(1) of the original Act, the Taxation Principles Reporting Act, and I still want that explanation from the Minister. It is for the benefit of other people in this Chamber who perhaps don\u2019t have the specialised tax knowledge that people like Nancy Lu, Arena Williams, and Barb Edmonds have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI\u2019m assuming the Minister has this knowledge. I know he has been an accountant, I think, in his previous life, so he\u2019s worked in that space. So I\u2019m assuming he does actually know, but I\u2019d like him to explain it for the benefit of people who don\u2019t. The relationship between the repeal date in the bill, 1 January 2025, and section 10(1) of the Taxation Principles Reporting Act\u2014so that\u2019s the relationship between the calendar year, the tax year, and the repeal date in this bill. We haven\u2019t had that explanation yet, so I\u2019d like the Minister to demonstrate that he actually does know what is meant by the tax year and how it relates to the calendar year and how, then, that relates to the unappealing repeal of the repeal of the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u002262f62d5a2bd4404b8c0f47ada337aaaf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262f62d5a2bd4404b8c0f47ada337aaaf\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I will begin this call, but welcome your guidance if this is the wrong place to debate this. The Minister has sought to debate my amendment to clause 1 in this part, where he began his contribution in answer to my colleagues\u2019 questions, by speaking about my amendment to clause 1, which is to delete the \u201CTaxation Principles Reporting Act Repeal Act 2023\u201D and replace it with the \u201CTaxation Principles Reporting Act Repeal and No Reporting on New Zealand\u2019s Taxation Settings Act 2023.\u201D This is a good amendment, Mr Chair. However, if I was to give a call on that now, I would be in the wrong part, but I\u2019m seeking to debate with the Minister what he has raised in the chair and I hope my colleagues will support the questions that he has asked me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI\u2019m taking the call on clause 1, which the Minister spoke to. The reason for my proposal to amend the name of the Taxation Principles Reporting Act Repeal Act 2023 is that it doesn\u2019t include the reference to what the repeal of this would actually do. The actual effect of this bill right now is that there is a piece of work which the IRD has conducted, at the expense of the New Zealand taxpayer, into the distribution of wealth within New Zealand, particularly for high net-wealth individuals, and they would be expected to make an interim report to the Minister very shortly and then a full report in the 2025 calendar year. That work is largely done. The effect of this bill that the Minister has proposed would be to keep all of that work and put it in a box and boot it out the window.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo I want to make that clear in the wording of the name of this bill, which the Minister has sought to debate with me in this part\u2014and the reason why we need to change the name of the bill is because we need to be really clear about the wastage that this Minister is proposing, about the public work that has gone on for the benefit of the New Zealand people that is already done that will be put in a drawer, filed away, and never used again should this bill progress. I don\u2019t want that to happen. On this side of the House, we don\u2019t think that is a good use of taxpayers\u2019 money and we think that the Minister should release the report today so that we can debate it within this committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EHowever, if he does not, then it must be the case that this committee should change the name of this bill and make sure that the New Zealand public are just clear that that\u2019s the Minister\u2019s preference\u2014that he would keep from the New Zealand public the work that has already gone on by the hard-working people at IRD, and we would never know what they were going to tell the Minister, and that this bill is progressing in urgency. The reason for its urgency is because he doesn\u2019t want to know. He\u2019s days away from receiving the interim report and he wants to make sure that the empowering legislation that he\u2019s probably already got on his desk\u2014he doesn\u2019t want to read that over summer. He doesn\u2019t want to be sitting in his office reading that over summer. He doesn\u2019t want to know how his taxation policies that he must defend as the Minister of Revenue in his party\u2014he doesn\u2019t want to know how that will affect the low-income workers of New Zealand but, as well, the hard-working homeowners who he represents in his electorate of the North Shore; he doesn\u2019t want to know. So he\u2019d better change the legislation so he doesn\u2019t get that work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThat is why the name of the bill must change or the Minister should take a call and explain that he will be tabling that report very shortly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u002253c9f45c4b394857b1b032ddf862655d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253c9f45c4b394857b1b032ddf862655d\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. Look, I do acknowledge the energy in the room as we head into Christmas for a clause which has eight words, just for the record\u2014eight words are in this clause, and we\u2019ve heard a lot of clauses inside it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EAs I outlined clearly in my first response to the questions in regards to that, I\u2019ve covered off why that clause is there. The question raised by the Hon Grant Robertson, I think, was in regards to the other bills that there were. We had the fair pay repeal legislation, which included a clause similar to that within this. So just to reply to that question: different time duration acknowledged, but the view is that 12 months is an appropriate time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe questions from Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick and also from the Hon Dr Deborah Russell: those are, again, consistent around clause 3, which I\u2019ve already covered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EAgain, going back to the amendment on the Table, well, the title of the clause is not part of the part that we\u2019re currently discussing. I think you can be pretty clear that the title on this bill is pretty clear on what it\u2019s doing and that\u2019s exactly what it says, so anything other than that is not going to be accepted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022f8aa858148354e5cbf9752c622806ba5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f8aa858148354e5cbf9752c622806ba5\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. I\u2019d have to say I was a little bit disappointed with the answers that have been provided so far. They\u2019ve been very fair questions, in my view, and I hope to provide a fair question myself as I rise to speak in support of the proposed amendment in the name of Arena Williams, which proposes to insert that, as one option, the day after an inquiry of a committee of the House of Representatives has reported back to the House of Representatives on those parts of the Taxation Principles Reporting Act, that should be given effect in policy. What on earth is wrong with that? If the bill is going to be repealed and wiped off the books and the dust\u2019s covered over it, why not at least look into it first? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ESo my question to the Minister is: what\u2019s changed? Why has his view changed, because I was sitting here listening to the response and I was thinking, I\u2019m pretty sure that before the election, Simon Watts was a huge advocate for ensuring that the public had their say. So I had a little bit of a nosy and I found here a quote from Hansard, which is part of a debate on a bill that went to select committee and had a full public hearing\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201CI placed a motion on the table to extend the process, to give them more time\u2014more time for scrutiny, to listen to those submissions\u2014but it is clear from those members on that side of the House that they have no interest in listening to Kiwis\u201D. We did listen, because we had a select committee process, and there\u2019s a clear difference between that and this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EAs we\u2019ve seen throughout urgency, there\u2019s been no opportunity for the public to have their say, and in this instance, not only have the public not had their say but, as is proposed in this clause, they\u2019re going to wipe it. They\u2019re going to wipe all record of the fact that there was a bill, there was a repeal bill, and we\u2019re just going to fritter it away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EHowever, Arena Williams has come up with an elegant solution, in my view\u2014as she has done throughout this entire period of urgency. She has proposed\u2014look, fine, we get it. As the Minister has explained, the purpose of clause 3 is to indicate that this bill will be repealed. We get that\u2014fine. But why not do that after we have an inquiry, because the public hasn\u2019t had their say. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThe Government says it\u2019s not needed. Why don\u2019t we put that to the test\u2014why don\u2019t we put that to the test? I imagine that the report is actually written, as has been talked about. Give it to the select committee, have a nosy, and I tell you what\u2014here\u2019s a promise. I haven\u2019t consulted my colleagues, but I\u2019m pretty sure they\u2019ll back me on this. If, after the independent inquiry, it says, \u201CYou know what? This isn\u2019t needed. This is a waste of time.\u2019\u2019, we\u2019ll go, \u201CFair enough\u2014fair enough. We\u2019re not into that.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b65d105e9683408399eb7471450ed1ac\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not sure I can give my support to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b7436aede83449ab3182a985a42c43d\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha! Yep. All right, I\u2019ll reconsider my proposal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EBut it\u2019s a fair question, and it\u2019s a question that quite clearly has a range of responses, and that\u2019s good. We\u2019re here to debate. But the only response that really matters right now is that from the Minister, so let\u2019s hear it. Will you give it a go? Will you stick up for what you used to believe and let this go to an inquiry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba4a32c211ab42c985483c4071386bf5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba4a32c211ab42c985483c4071386bf5\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Really great\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1a58257092145d1adc8afafd666dda0\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Oh no!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022863b6de0263f41528417b8d346669f7d\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I\u2019m going to take this call. I too want to support the amendment that\u2019s been put forward by the formidable MP for Manurewa in relation to having a select committee review after this bill to be able to actually provide some assurance to the public of New Zealand that actually the actions taken by this Government can be scrutinised because, clearly, under urgency we have not had that opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EI\u2019m a little bit indifferent as to what the Hon Kieran McAnulty has proposed, but you know, I can take things into consideration, you know, just a bit more. I might just have to think about that one. But, you know, I absolutely agree with the Hon Kieran McAnulty that a select committee process should follow this. And there\u2019s also something that I have seen over the last couple of weeks that we\u2019ve been under urgency; even external people such as Professor Dean Knight from Victoria University has also said that, actually, this is something that should be done as part of good process when a bill goes through under urgency\u2014is to allow select committee process to go through it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EWhen I asked that question of a previous Minister, the Hon Chris Bishop, in the departmental disclosure statement, it actually made reference to: \u201CThe 100-day initiatives will be reviewed by the Government.\u201D So I actually specifically asked that Minister who is going to undertake that review and that Minister\u2019s response was Ministry for the Environment and Treasury. So my question to the Minister is: given that this bill meets that criteria that it is within the 100-day period, that it is going through under urgency, who is going to undertake that post-implementation assessment? Is it going to be Inland Revenue? Is it going to be Treasury? I still agree with the member from Manurewa that it should be a select committee to look to it, but if the Minister does not agree with that particular amendment, then, actually going back to what his Government has put in the disclosure statements, who\u2019s going to be doing that post 100-day implementation and assessment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E Yesterday, when I\u2014actually, it wasn\u2019t long after the Minister was just made the co-captain of the Parliamentary Rugby Team, so I have to congratulate you on that one. I don\u2019t think you quite understood what you were signing up to given, you know, possibly Fiji, South Africa, and there\u2019s only $57 in the balance book, but I congratulate you on that. So when I turned my mind to this particular repeal bill, I too actually questioned when this actually comes into force and I had to go talk to a bunch of lawyers\u2014it happens to be just on this side of the House over here, and it had to be clarified to me this is what they thought was the interpretation of clause 3. And I did worry because I thought, hang on, Inland Revenue drafters\u2014they\u2019re an absolutely amazing bunch of drafters that I have had the privilege of working with for over 10 years when I worked for Inland Revenue. I thought, no, they can\u2019t get this wrong, I\u2019m pretty sure that they have this right. And I still haven\u2019t had that clarification from the Minister as to\u2014exactly what Dr Deborah Russell has gone through\u2014how this interacts with the reporting Act, which is then going to be repealed, and then this repeal bill which will become an Act which will then be repealed in January 2025.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EI\u2019m still trying to understand how that alignment works, so I\u2019d really like the Minister to be able to really clarify. The Minister did talk about the precedents around the fair pay agreements, that there was a particular bill that, again, went through under urgency with no select committee process, and that that was in that bill. However, I want to ask the Minister: have there been other tax bills similar to this or tax bills where this type of precedent has been used? And then the Minister also, in his response to one of the earlier questions, said that, basically, they\u2019re going to be maintaining it for a year. So my next question is, given that the purpose and intention of this particular repeal bill is to remove wastage and to remove bureaucracy, given that we have seen right throughout the regulatory impact statement that it\u2019s only going to be 2.5 full-time equivalents (FTEs), how many FTEs will be required to maintain these pieces of repealed legislation on the Inland Revenue\u2014I\u2019m guessing maybe the Inland Revenue website, if you can clarify where it\u2019s going to be held, given that we want to be able to have it on some record where members of the public can find it. I want to understand from the Minister how many FTEs will be required for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022142989f0e8c74fb09b31efc7dae37d90\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022142989f0e8c74fb09b31efc7dae37d90\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. Look, in the spirit of the new committee stage and a conversation, I just want to get an answer to my original question, which wasn\u2019t answered at all, which was: does a repeal of a repeal restore the original legislation; if not, why not? If the Minister could respond to that, that would be great.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022 data-id=\u0022a34dafc1cd014adb8aea440dab15d91f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a34dafc1cd014adb8aea440dab15d91f\u0022\u003EMIKE BUTTERICK (National\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u0022f29341bba1c44687bdd073759a5a0627\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f29341bba1c44687bdd073759a5a0627\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m just going to finish my contribution, and it will be very short while we\u2019re waiting for the Minister to get some advice on it, to be able to provide a response to the committee. What other tax bills has this precedent been used in? Not just other bills; I\u2019m talking about tax bills, because there are particular drafters that draft these tax bills, which are different from the Parliamentary Counsel Office. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EI also want to know how many fulltime-equivalents will be used to maintain this repeal of a repeal bill over the next year, up to January 2025, given that the purpose and intention of this repeal bill is to remove waste and bureaucracy. I\u2019d be really keen to know what the Minister\u2019s response is in relation to that, especially given we do not have a select committee process, we do not have the ability for the public or for members of the Finance and Expenditure Committee, the great committee that it is, to be able to ask Inland Revenue officials or an independent adviser, which we always have as part of tax bills, these particular questions. Because even for myself, who has practised in tax, at my first blush at looking at this bill, I too was confused. I do have confidence in the Inland Revenue drafters and I just want to understand if the Minister can provide those answers to those very different questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022fba79e46578b4e688c55064ecda3860c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fba79e46578b4e688c55064ecda3860c\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair, and thank you for those contributions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll start off with, firstly, the, I think, partial contribution by the Hon Kieran McAnulty\u2014until his colleague interrupted and he sat down. But the reality is we won\u2019t be taking him up on their offer, so I think we\u2019ll just cut to the chase on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe other contribution from the Hon Barbara Edmonds was in regards to, again, the prioritisation between these clauses, so let\u2019s work it through. The commencement date is the date that the Taxation Principles Reporting Act is repealed. That will be the date at which that actually occurs and it gets published. So that would be the date which follows post Royal assent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThen clause 3, which we\u2019ve extensively been through, over and over, the eight words\u2014at that point this bill, on 1 January 2025, in effect will be repealed. Basically, what happens with these bills is that they go on to the legislation website. Once they are repealed, they go into another bucket of old bills that have been repealed. So from a point of process, that\u2019s what\u2019s happening. It\u2019s no more complex than that. It\u2019s eight words in that clause. I appreciate there\u2019s a lot of interest in that, but it is as simple as that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThere were a couple of other questions from the Hon Duncan Webb, that cover, I think, in terms of where there were examples of other bills where we\u2019ve used that. I\u2019ve given an example of the one that was being done in the last few days. And, as I said, why we\u2019re doing it is it does, in effect, clear up the statute book. So those are the three questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u0022624153728e2447098a35b854b510ccde\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022624153728e2447098a35b854b510ccde\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and I\u2019d like to congratulate the Minister on his new role. I want to know about the report and the work that\u2019s been done pursuant to the bill that is going to be repealed, and whether the Minister would look at really putting hard-working New Zealanders\u2019 money to good use in letting us see the work that\u2019s been done and, perhaps, consider an extension in terms of the repeal for a few years so that we can see this information and its value and then make a considered decision about whether in fact it provides value for New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EIt does seem to me that the work that\u2019s been done\u2014even if we may I disagree on whether in fact that is good value for money, the money has now been spent, largely. I would like the Minister to answer very plainly whether he has such a report already, or if he does not, how much work would be involved in getting that report into a position where we would be able to see it. If it involves particular people, what happens to those people? Are they going to be made redundant? In which case, it\u2019s on notice, and, actually, they\u2019ve got time on their hands that they might be able to finish this work. So what\u2019s the cost of retaining those people till they finish this time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EAnd I guess my bigger point here\u2014and I would like an answer to this, and I am absolutely genuine about this\u2014is the taxpayer is someone who we all know; it\u2019s us. We are all paying tax at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f58130baf2e4c0b884f7bce2eb416fd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Can the member bring the focus to clause 3, please?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022559fc5a43d8042139cbce1dc69cc6b7c\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. Sorry. So in a situation, is it really something where we want to repeal an Act if in fact we are about to see whether that taxpayer is being overtaxed? Given the position of the Government on the situation, I\u2019d like a genuine answer as to why we wouldn\u2019t wait and see whether in fact the tax balance is right, even in this current work that\u2019s been done. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022e5ccc1f4d0864626b3aab3616a8aadb0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e5ccc1f4d0864626b3aab3616a8aadb0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Just in terms of the next contributions, they do need to be focused on clause 3. I do note that previous contributions have focused on clause 3 and have brought up new material, but continuing on from here, we need to keep that focus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022104a1b717e73409b933567b2c96a06c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022104a1b717e73409b933567b2c96a06c7\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I don\u2019t like having to do this, but I have still not received an answer from the Minister on the initial question I asked, and this is starting to worry me. So let me reprise the question, and I\u2019ll tell you why it\u2019s worrying me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EAll right. So we have three dates in play here. So first of all is the date for the repeal of the repeal, so that\u2019s 1 January 2025. So this bill has a self-repeal clause in it that\u2019s set at 1 January 2025. The problem is that as I read the bill, as a tax person, I looked and I thought, \u201CHang on a second; what\u2019s that date and why?\u201D I couldn\u2019t quite understand it, so I went back to the original Act and I looked, in particular, at the date at which the first interim report is due under the Taxation Principles Reporting Act, and I\u2019m going to direct the Minister to it. It\u2019s section 10(1), where it says, \u201CThe Commissioner must give the Minister an interim Commissioner\u2019s report annually, before the end of a calendar year,\u201D\u2014so that\u2019s the second date that\u2019s in play\u2014\u201Cfor the tax year that ends in the calendar year,\u201D\u2014so that\u2019s the third date that\u2019s in play. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EAs a tax person, it took me a little while to sort that through, but I got it. It just took a moment of reflection and I got there, but I wanted the Minister to explain\u2014he has not done this yet\u2014the relationship between section 10(1) in the Taxation Principles Reporting Act and clause 3 of the Taxation Principles Reporting Act Repeal Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, that\u2019s the question I\u2019ve asked three times now and still have not received an answer. The reason I\u2019m starting to get a bit worried is because I\u2019m not sure that the Minister understands this. Now, that\u2019s alarming, because Ministers ought to understand the nature of the legislation they\u2019re putting in front of the House. In this case, it\u2019s a repeal bill. I would anticipate that the Minister would understand the nature of the original bill, the Taxation Principles Reporting Act 2023.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, these are common concepts in tax: tax year, calendar year, and how they relate. I would anticipate that the Minister of Revenue and his officials would be able to explain that to us and to the House. Now, I\u2019m happy to step outside and explain it to people, but that\u2019s not my role in the House. But I would like the Minister to explain it to the House for the benefit of the House and for the benefit of people watching. So, Minister, the ball is in your court on that one. Answer the question and I\u2019ll stop asking it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00229b8f17eae8504bdfa7741e7664c5fbd7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b8f17eae8504bdfa7741e7664c5fbd7\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I have 10 questions for the Minister about clause 3. I will take him through my first six questions, and then I would really appreciate a short call after that about clause 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ENow, as the Hon Kieran McAnulty explained, there is a real purpose in spending some time within a select committee context, or another group context, to find a way through this, where we\u2019re appealing some taxation principles that we actually all agree with. The Minister hasn\u2019t said that we do not all agree with these taxation principles. He has not said that he disagrees with sunlight as the best disinfectant to work through a bipartisan way forward on these tax principles, and so I\u2019m here to help. I have some suggestions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe first question that I have for the Minister is: will he be taking to Cabinet a proposal for a Cabinet committee to consider those principles within the Taxation Principles Reporting Act 2023, which should be given effect in policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMy second question is: would he consider a futures forum - like setting, which is a tool of the Scottish Parliament, to consider those principles of New Zealand\u2019s taxation reporting regime as it exists now, particularly Schedule 1, and whether those are still relevant and how they should be given effect in policy, regulation, or secondary legislation which would be subordinate to the Tax Administration Act? A futures forum for the Minister\u2019s benefit is a tool which uses a cross-partisan approach, alongside experts, to conduct inquiries into issues which are long-term political issues for the good of a nation. Two examples from Scotland\u2019s Futures Forum are its inquiry into drug use in Scotland, which was a cross-partisan approach to healthcare, and an inquiry into their superannuation settings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe third question I have for the Minister is: would he consider that forum being chaired by a presiding officer of this House and it being a genuinely bipartisan forum where members of this House were represented in proportion to their party vote that they received, or one representative per party? Because that would genuinely give us the opportunity to have a cross-partisan way of working, most similar to the Business Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMy fifth question for the Minister is: would he consider me chairing it? I would love to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EAnd the sixth question that I have for him before I ask the further four is: would he consider Dr Dean Knight as a special adviser, given his interest in this debate and the submissions that you have heard from my colleagues on this side of the House about his advice about how to proceed with this particular clause 3?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u0022797b1e75aa854fe0b7dc177b9716caeb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022797b1e75aa854fe0b7dc177b9716caeb\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Look, I have a new question on clause 3, which is really, I know that the Minister has made the point that it is a short clause, but I think what I haven\u2019t heard from the Minister is: what is the reason for the repeal of the repeal? My question to the Minister is: would he be able to give to the committee today the reports or any advice or information or drafts that he has received pursuant to the Act which is being repealed to show the intention of why he is doing the repeal?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ENow, if, for example, there is information in that report that shows that there aren\u2019t great disparities, that things are going all according to plan, and everything looks fair, that would really behove well for the Minister to share that, because it would show a genuine intention from the Government that this is really about bureaucracy, which is what has been said in the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EBut without seeing that report, and given the timing of this repeal and the repeal of the repeal, the fact that we\u2019re doing it without a select committee process and then trying to remove the breadcrumbs, as Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick said, I think it\u2019s really important for the transparency to show the work that\u2019s been done and, therefore, New Zealanders who are watching this debate\u2014and this is the only debate that we\u2019re having on this bill. This is the only time that New Zealanders will get to hear from the Minister, get to hear the intention behind what he is doing and why there is this complexity in clause 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThat would be a very revealing thing, because the Minister could say anything that he wants about the clauses, but actually the data would speak for itself and it would be great evidence for this committee to have. It would be great evidence to show that all the statements made by the Minister and others on his side of the Chamber\u2014they\u2019re saying that this is about busting bureaucracy. That is an admirable thing to want to do, to bust bureaucracy, but when we put that in the context of 2\u00BD full-time employees and we haven\u2019t seen even just a sliver of any of the data that has been gathered or what work has been done, it\u2019s very difficult for us and for the New Zealanders watching this debate to be able to make an informed judgment about what the purpose is for clause 3 and why there is this complexity around it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESo this is a new point, because my colleagues have asked about why it\u2019s complex, but I think what I\u2019d like to hear from the Minister is the motivation for doing it, as shown by the evidence. So, Minister, if you cannot bring that report today or share with us the work that has been done on it, my subsequent questions are when could you bring that to the House? Would you be prepared to do that? Even if this repeal does go through before Christmas, would you be prepared to show the House at a later date, rather than having to go through an Official Information Act process? Because that would be much more efficient and less bureaucracy for you than having Official Information Act requests come from every side of the House. So when could you do that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EOr if you are not going to, then I\u2019d really like to know your reasons why you\u2019re not going to, because this is really material evidence to show your intention and so that we can accept, at face value, the answers\u2014or the semi-answers, because I haven\u2019t heard them answered yet, as my colleagues have said\u2014to this really important, strange removal of the breadcrumbing under clause 3. So I\u2019d really like to hear that from you, Minister. Will you share the report? Will you do it today? If not, when will you share it with the House, and will you do that proactively rather than subject to Official Information Act requests? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EIf you\u2019re not going to do that, can you please give us a really clear reason why you\u2019re not going to, so that we can feel reassured that there isn\u2019t sort of some kind of hidden agenda, which is partly what I\u2019m hearing you say, so that you can evidence the things you\u2019re saying about this being just a simple eight-word clause. That\u2019s what I\u2019d really like to hear from you, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u002240af54b8cb6e4a79be7fd25a11e6fb1f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240af54b8cb6e4a79be7fd25a11e6fb1f\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much. Again, I acknowledge the questions, and I\u2019m going to be free and frank in regards to my responses on these questions. I do not have a copy of such report and have not seen any copies or views in regards to that report. So there is no magic report that is sitting on my desk, in my office in regards to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe reality is, going back to the questions around dates by the Hon Deborah Russell, around the tax year dates\u2014so the report which is going to be technically required under legislation which we are now repealing would be as at the 31 March tax year this year. That report needs to be delivered by 31 December this year. And this bill will, in effect, repeal the need to do that reporting and that will be effective post this bill passing through a Royal assent. So the timeline in terms of those dates is as follows, and, to be honest, it is as simple as that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003ETo the questions from Arena Williams\u2014and I acknowledge the feedback\u2014no, I will not be taking any papers to Cabinet in regards to the principles. We\u2019re pretty clear. We do not see the need for this legislation in regards to what it\u2019s purporting to do. The reality is that the tax system already, and Inland Revenue and many policy aspects within that already refer to tax principles. That\u2019s not a new concept. The tax principles actually, in the annual report from Inland Revenue, include a wide range of information in regards to the integrity of the tax system. So the conversation around the member asking in terms of, you know, am I as Minister open to suggestions by the member in terms of other aspects that aren\u2019t in that annual report that might be of value, of course, and I\u2019d encourage the member to get in touch and I will consider that in a best interests and genuine manner. So I think that that covers off the questions around principles, covers off the questions in regards to dates, and, from Helen White and Ingrid Leary, covers off the questions in regards to the actual report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa0d412d3be446deb112b72a2d39ba50\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa0d412d3be446deb112b72a2d39ba50\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, before we move to the next call, I just want to acknowledge the probing questions of members, but I would also note that it\u2019s the prerogative of the Minister how he chooses to address them or not, and I\u2019m asking and looking for new material in terms of this clause. I do understand that you want to get specific answers, but that is the prerogative of the Minister, and members need to understand that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022667947129dcd4d9887607abc3e0924b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022667947129dcd4d9887607abc3e0924b0\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Chair. Thank you, Mr Chair. I hope to seek your guidance on Speakers\u2019 ruling 79/4, which sets out at (1)\u2014and I will read it to you\u2014it was ruling of Speaker Tolley in 2020. \u201CI encourage you to keep your contributions focused\u201D\u2014which is what I did in my last contribution; I did not use my full five minutes, which she refers to there\u2014\u201Cand [it is] relevant to promote good interaction with the Minister in the chair. We have the ability then to take short calls, and have a series of questions and answers between members and \u2026 Minister[s].\u201D Her ruling there was that someone in my position could be confident that they would receive the next call after the Minister had answered a short series of questions. As I\u2019ve indicated to the Minister, I have 10 questions to ask him, and a further four, given what he has told me, and I\u2019d like to take the next call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00220b037686fd394324ac11bbefaf6603c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b037686fd394324ac11bbefaf6603c6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: I shall take some advice. In your following contribution, I do want you to focus on clause 3, and I acknowledge that the Hon Barbara Edmonds will allow me to give you the call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u002241c4725d7d894d7e8e1a1fbd6aa1b156\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002241c4725d7d894d7e8e1a1fbd6aa1b156\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Speaking on clause 3 of the Minister\u2019s proposed amendment bill, I have an amendment on the Table to refer the Act that is being repealed to a committee of the House. The Minister has indicated to me that he is not considering a committee, but he said in his contribution recently to the House that he would encourage me to get in touch with him and to further discuss these principles. He also told the House that the principles are something that IRD uses frequently. So I hope to help him with some further assurances to the House, which can get us there and then can leave us all happy around the House to vote for his amended clause 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo my further three questions are: would the Minister be open to an amendment to my amendment to make Schedule 1 of the Act, which is being repealed here, a new section 9 of the Tax Administration Act? It would only require one small operative provision to make sure that that schedule was given effect and remained in the statute book. The reason why I\u2019m proposing that within this clause 3 is that it\u2019s relevant to when this entire Act that the Minister has proposed is repealed and we then lose all of the legislation on the book. So what I\u2019m proposing here is sort of like a transitional savings provision whereby Schedule 1 of the Act which is being repealed is then retained somewhere on our statute book, which I think should be the Tax Administration Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMy eighth question to the Minister is: given what he has told me in answers to his questions, will he write to the Commissioner of Inland Revenue and recommend that it become the practice of the commissioner to publish those principles that are within Schedule 1 that the commissioner has taken into account when preparing the annual report that the Minister spoke of? That would be really useful, I think, for transparency within our system and would improve the operation of clause 3, which repeals the Act in its entirety.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMy last question to the Minister is, given that he does not support my amendment, clause (b), whether he would consider, then, doing the intent of that, which would be by giving a 90-minute briefing to the Finance and Expenditure Committee alongside the Commissioner of Inland Revenue. Thank you, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022a1f32e9795c7464fb41359196124b2f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a1f32e9795c7464fb41359196124b2f2\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E In the interests of free and frank conversation in regards to those questions, it\u2019s not something that I\u2019m going to consider. The whole purpose of this repeal bill is to take the legislative requirement around the reporting out, and hence the purpose of the bill. So to, in effect, take on board the feedback that you\u2019re providing, or the suggestion, would, in effect, go against the principle of the bill. In regards to the conversation around tax principles and writing to the commissioner, look, the reality is that the annual report for IRD is publicly available. There\u2019s a page at the back in which you can provide feedback and suggestions in regards to information in regards to that. That\u2019s open for all New Zealanders to do so. As I\u2019ve indicated to the member, if they wish to converse and write to me about their ideas around what\u2019s not in that report that might be of use, then please feel free to do so and I will consider that in good faith. But in regards to any other aspects around protocol, this is a very simple bill. It is repealing a reporting requirement which the Government do not believe is necessary. That is the effect of the bill. On that basis, we\u2019re not going to be considering the amendments that are proposed by that member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u0022250e70dfb16a4caa842f3b3c3dc8e01c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022250e70dfb16a4caa842f3b3c3dc8e01c\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Always charitable this time of the year, and a really great contribution there from the MP for Manurewa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re going to clause 3, in response to a question that I gave to the Minister, and he addressed it in the sense that the maintenance of this particular repeal bill will go into a bill box. Now, my\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fef473ff74a94775b793b7d0084610db\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Bucket.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022420fce2f9b9f45eb87872168d44d1b23\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: Oh sorry\u2014bill bucket. My bad\u2014a bill bucket. The reason why I question this in relation to clause 3 is because clause 3 provides the date in which that particular bill bucket closes or gets filled up or disposed of or whatever, which is in January\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f816e86b4eda4eacab12991fe8a46837\u0022\u003EHon Simon Watts\u003C/span\u003E: Comes in a sleigh.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb73e4d2dd3b48bea396a45533c575bb\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: What was that, Minister, sorry? I didn\u2019t hear you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282065faabd244ba38567ec5a28ed0dba\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: He said, \u201CComes in a sleigh.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8cca437aee04d579bdd2f459be29e99\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, OK. So January 2025, which goes to clause 3. But, again, the reason why\u2014and I understand from various speakers across that side of the House and the Government side of the House\u2014this bill needed to be repealed was because of the wastage and the bureaucracy. Therefore, the bill bucket, which will be filled up by January 2025\u2014I\u2019m trying to get through my train of thought here\u2014how many fulltime-equivalents will be required to maintain that bill bucket, given that the purpose and intention of this repeal bill is wastage and bureaucracy? I think that is a valid question in relation to clause 3, because clause 3 is when that bill bucket closes\u2014in January 2025.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ESo my question is to the Minister: does he have any advice as to how much that bill bucket maintenance is going to cost? Has he received any information as to how many full-time employees will be required for the maintenance of that? And if he hasn\u2019t, why has the Minister not asked for that information, given the purpose and intention of this bill, which clause 3 brings into effect? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThen my second question\u2014and this is in relation to, again, another response by the Minister around clarifying how this interacts with the Taxation Principles Reporting Act, which is going to be repealed. I thank the Minister for providing that clarification, because he said the reporting time frame is for the tax year ended 31 March, and I\u2019m assuming 2024.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ESo in relation to that, does that mean that there\u2019s been seven months that the Inland Revenue has been able to develop a report? The Minister has confirmed that he has not seen the report. I\u2019m not sure whether he\u2019s asked for the report. But within that seven-month period, has he got any advice from his officials as to what they\u2019ve done in that seven months, how much that has cost for that seven months of work, so that we here on this side of the House can be able to assess that? Because, again, this bill and the foundations on which this bill are predicated are, according to the Government, wastage and bureaucracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ESo those two relative questions in relation to clause 3, given that\u2019s when this repeal bill is coming into effect. Again, I just acknowledge the Minister and thank him for clarifying the time frames in relation to 31 March, 21st, and I think when this bill comes into force so it\u2019s not delivered on 31 December 2023.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u00220d363a42aca84e9caf9c39c3cb721f78\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d363a42aca84e9caf9c39c3cb721f78\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E I have a new question, and it follows from comments made by my colleague the Hon Barbara Edmonds but also following from the answer that the Minister gave to my question about the release of any work done. I want to thank the Minister for engaging so authentically and directly with that very authentic and direct question. If I recall his answer correctly, he said that there was no magic report on his desk or whatever. My colleague didn\u2019t ask this question, but I\u2019d like to pick up on her train of thought where she said she didn\u2019t know if the Minister had proactively asked for information. She\u2019s talking about the cost of full-time employees and the cost of gathering the data.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESo my question to the Minister, in response to what he told me, and in the spirit of this engagement as a debate, Minister: will you proactively get some of the data collated for us, even if it\u2019s not in a final form? I hear you when you say that you haven\u2019t been given any advice by your officials. The question is, really, not only have you proactively asked for it\u2014which my colleague asked\u2014but my question to you is: will you proactively ask for this information? Not how much the reporting of it would cost or the full-time employees\u2014all of that. This is a new question around: will you actually give us some substantive data\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a75b5b7c28f4fc391221162895156f6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The member is starting to repeat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbd0f285fb5348cb83b98d5bcb2006c1\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014could you please collate some of, and proactively ask your officials to collate what they have, even if it\u2019s not in a perfect final form so that we can make an assessment about what work has been done. So I\u2019ll ask that, also because the Minister did raise that when he was answering my question. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00220480b8c073e149a0b93d440d3212fdfc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220480b8c073e149a0b93d440d3212fdfc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The time has come for me to leave the Chair. The House is suspended and will resume at 2 p.m. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 12.58 p.m. to 2 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b16f8d292a31465a8a3c1fe2fc8fd7be\u0022\u003EResignations\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022276fcfaa1a7e4a74aa3de6344161bebd\u0022\u003EHon Kelvin Davis, New Zealand Labour Party\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002255fa7bb410f04d71870e0c1628f55c4e\u0022\u003E the Hon Kelvin Davis\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022113b018e272a4dc9bae5bf41e11a66c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022113b018e272a4dc9bae5bf41e11a66c8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, I wish to advise the House that I have received a letter from, resigning his seat in the House with effect at 11.59 p.m. on 6 February 2024.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c0d91b153c23464eacb9fed34c76c50d\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229719db73ec8644f7954dc247f3968856\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c0d35cce0612470c8d19ff33c372e55c\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u00222f2faca4cc3348ada2467f96b5a69f43\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f2faca4cc3348ada2467f96b5a69f43\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Acting Prime Minister: Does he stand by\u2014I better make sure I get the wording right! Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u002237e292db420c4d8f8ae622d75ab92df2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002237e292db420c4d8f8ae622d75ab92df2\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Acting Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E In the context in which they were said and with the facts that were then known, yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207e586a0b9f9492390a5e4a7283c4ae4\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with Todd McClay that Winston Peters is \u201Cfast earning himself an international reputation as an apologist for Russia\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d732a48e42ff4f4291430bdac5c9b61a\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Because that statement was made without any relevance to the new circumstances that member finds himself in. He\u2019s in Opposition. Ask questions that represent the Opposition, not when he was in Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022366b5398cd4c40c8b971917cf206f174\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: What?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b069dc9c837a4516bfc8d6a18af3a5a3\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: It means ask questions that were relevant after this Government was formed, and not before. He should know that. That\u2019s why he\u2019s sitting over there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb4dbc7d043b499982ebbdbef471f2d5\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: He didn\u2019t say he didn\u2019t disagree with it! Does he agree with Chris Bishop that Winston Peters often \u201Cmakes false claims to the media and the public.\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6bd5d6effb3442fa48c67c7acef5c24\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: This may be a slow constitutional lesson, but the questions that we are required to answer pertain to when we formed this Government and thereafter, and probably for the next 25 years. In his case, he should be explaining who his possible unlucky successor is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022872bc4d8a7964862a5232f119cb7771e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with Paul Goldsmith that \u201CPeters\u2019 big mouth is harming Kiwi businesses\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9fc9591f92a442a851558b90e225665\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: This is another lesson that\u2019s going to take a long time to sink in, and that\u2019s why we would like to relieve this Parliament for a few days and for a few weeks for them to lick their wounds because they are not learning the lesson that they lost. As their former deputy leader Michael Cullen said, \u201CWe won. You lost. Eat that!\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269e324f4a6d7464685908521a14a4de5\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with the Rt Hon Sir John Key, of Winston Peters, \u201CHistorically, he has always been sacked by prime ministers. It\u2019s a very different style to mine and it\u2019s rearward-looking.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe7f2412f43845b48d386e24a59779b9\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: As everybody knows, Mr Key made a lot of statements, but privately he\u2019s a secret admirer of mine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db517ebb7d8440068f5b46864f68b685\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with David Seymour that Winston Peters has \u201Cfallen out with National twice, with half his own colleagues within New Zealand First, even though he hand-picked them. I mean, he can\u2019t work with anybody. I think you\u2019ll find that Chris Luxon is ultimately far too principled to try and work with them too.\u201D, and, if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c851fc04f374468a3b078b375a1d446\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: They say that all is fair in love and war and\u2014dare I say it\u2014politics. Those things that are said on the campaign\u2014some are meant to be true, some are slightly inflated, and some are sometimes wrong. However, those words, again, said by Mr Seymour and Mr Luxon\u2019s actions, and mine as well\u2014we\u2019re off to form a long-term, safe, successful Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022160f9a8b986649f8b49eb2aa9083f8a6\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u002288e61cbd8a1b460287a94e4e19c51516\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288e61cbd8a1b460287a94e4e19c51516\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does she stand by the principle in her Government\u2019s coalition agreements that \u201Cdecisions will be based on data and evidence\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022bab097358a22472e96aa23dc6116b233\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bab097358a22472e96aa23dc6116b233\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. I stand by the full principle in the coalition agreements, which is that \u201Cdecisions will be based on data and evidence, with programmes regularly assessed to see if they are delivering results.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9955806eaed40f889f6d3360cb627b7\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: In that case, does she stand by her statement that she has \u201Cseen evidence that the living costs of lower-income New Zealanders are based on a range of things\u201D, and, if so, what data and evidence has she seen that increasing bus fares will lower the living costs of low and middle income New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022feae061b26664f538dd8d49ddc4d7467\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen information\u2014which I would hope the member would also have access to\u2014which shows that living costs consist of a range of things. Bus fares are one of those things. A very important factor is also what people\u2019s after-tax incomes are. This is a Government that is committed to lifting after-tax incomes, including by delivering income tax reduction next year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e8eb9f702b046c98c6e192239824d31\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: So is she saying that increasing bus fares will decrease the cost of living for low-income New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb690a3c70764941934e81b9c5c26ed1\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: That is not what I said. What I said is that we are a Government that is committed to addressing the cost of living across a range of factors, including ensuring that people have higher incomes\u2014including those who use buses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e62d2d8010b40fbbcef15e2d71fbd0a\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: What data and evidence has she seen on how much rents will decrease by and when, as a result of the changes to the brightline test?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa204cd5204441e99c23d29823327a3a\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The brightline test, having been extended to 10 years, has had the effect of stopping some people selling their properties, because they are trying to avoid that tax. I\u2019ve not seen any evidence that extending the brightline test to 10 years lowered rents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a03fdf7a84f54dba89f36dc9833964ff\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: What data and evidence has she seen on how much money will be returned to the pockets of New Zealanders by reducing the transparency of our tax system by repealing the tax reporting Act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd7eb1dcbb514c4cb91d948b7f93804e\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: I reject the assertions in the member\u2019s question. We have a very transparent tax system. We don\u2019t need a silly Act that makes IRD write silly reports.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022989bbd874f074fc2bb36051814e8e148\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: So how much money will each New Zealander receive as a result of the repeal of the Act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222becdcd419ba44e8a2eaa6d7848f13a6\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The purpose of the repeal of the Act was not to deliver direct money to New Zealanders. It was consistent with our coalition\u2019s view that the Government should be focused on priorities. That member was a member of a Government that wrote endless reports about everything\u2014and very little was delivered. We\u2019re going to be quite different.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222d6dac41a66a497e82d2010ed8a65ae7\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022 data-id=\u0022f7a15690e92c46a7b5c78377fee4fe5d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f7a15690e92c46a7b5c78377fee4fe5d\u0022\u003EMILES ANDERSON (National\u2014Waitaki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What reports has she received on the state of the New Zealand economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u002240654841eba24846a8768d030ec2ae7c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240654841eba24846a8768d030ec2ae7c\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Yesterday\u2019s half-year update showed that New Zealand faces a number of economic and fiscal challenges, in particular the toxic combination of high inflation and interest rates, a slowing economy, and rising unemployment. But despite that challenging outlook, confidence in the economy is returning. ANZ\u2019s Business Outlook shows business confidence is at the highest level since March 2015, and inflation expectations among businesses are the lowest in two years. We\u2019ve got a lot more to do in the coming weeks and months, but it\u2019s an early vote of confidence in our Government\u2019s plan to beat inflation and get New Zealand\u2019s economy back on track. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a019e5a362b943d4a94d146c539d4a6e\u0022\u003EMiles Anderson\u003C/span\u003E: How are Kiwis responding to the Government\u2019s first steps to rebuild the economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022576f21b2786c44568b7473d86b9e92bf\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: ANZ\u2019s consumer confidence survey released earlier this week shows what ANZ described as \u201CA hint of Christmas cheer\u201D, as consumer confidence continues to bump up. In promising news, inflation expectations fell below 4 percent to 3.9 percent, the lowest level in three years. We are moving quickly to support the Reserve Bank in its fight to beat inflation, reducing Government spending, reducing costs on business, and clearing out broken regulations so we can get this economy moving again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215cfdec01d24407096f47d638e57a10b\u0022\u003EMiles Anderson\u003C/span\u003E: What economic challenges were revealed in the half-year update?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224990ef1567cf4a28a92772d4e07e879b\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Yesterday\u2019s half-year update showed that with the last Government having let inflation soar, interest rates will have to remain higher for longer to get the inflation genie back in the bottle. That is tough news for Kiwis, who are struggling with the cost of living and now facing big hikes in the cost of servicing their mortgage. Our Government knows New Zealanders are doing it tough and we also know the only way to get ahead is with a strong economy. Low inflation, low interest rates, and consistent economic growth\u2014that\u2019s what Labour inherited in 2017 and it\u2019s what we\u2019ll be working hard to deliver again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6909dfacef147b8a7db318918acf25e\u0022\u003EMiles Anderson\u003C/span\u003E: What next steps is the Government taking to support Kiwis with the cost of living?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc4226b601dc436fac7a1a0accd8bcc8\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Our Government is committed to delivering tax relief for hard-working New Zealanders. To support that commitment, yesterday we announced $7.5 billion of savings\u2014our first three weeks of work to restore fiscal sustainability. It is no surprise that for six years Kiwis didn\u2019t receive a cent of tax relief. When you have an addiction to spending, you just can\u2019t afford to let New Zealanders keep more of what they earn. Our Government is setting out a new chapter, cutting the waste, delivering the basics, and letting New Zealanders spend a bit more of their own hard-earned money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f39f7daa555843718834ba630fdd1f30\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with National MP Miles Anderson, who said, \u201CYou would think if you were going to do tax cuts that they would be best to come in on 1 April, wouldn\u2019t you, at the beginning of the tax year, so maybe they will be addressed in this mini-Budget. They\u2019ll need to be included, anyway.\u201D, and, if not, what message does she have for Mr Anderson?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd2ff054995d4263abc3c2edbde38bd2\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: My message for Mr Anderson is: congratulations on winning your fine seat. You are going to be a fine representative, and I believe you will be someone who will stand up for farmers, the productive economy, those who run tourism operations, and those who create jobs and incomes in this country, so keep up the good work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022528cfb57e8b74846ad5f71e54c1d7b2c\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Is Miles Anderson correct that any tax cuts should be addressed in the mini-Budget, and why weren\u2019t they?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd2f527c73ee4a1fb531f495d4d447dc\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: I think Miles Anderson is correct that New Zealanders yesterday enjoyed learning that this Government, in just three weeks, has made a $7.5 billion downpayment on tax relief, that we remain committed to delivering tax relief in July next year, and I think New Zealanders are also of the view that while Grant Robertson is obsessed with the arcane details of IRD tax programmes, actually, we\u2019re a Government that\u2019s getting on with it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002217ecaa2d84824970a752e79d36c808ff\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf228ddc76a64875a6bdf7135cfad96e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf228ddc76a64875a6bdf7135cfad96e\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does she stand by all of the fiscal and economic commitments made in the coalition agreements signed by National, New Zealand First, and ACT?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u002229adc155ab2a41edbfcd9ae37d68f242\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002229adc155ab2a41edbfcd9ae37d68f242\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, subject to final consideration and decision making by Cabinet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d63a8c515e74e639bf971776861b214\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Will the total value of the savings and new revenue initiatives in the list that she released yesterday be used to fund the tax cuts programme in the coalition agreement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022237b7e1f5bd0479ba6adfd831b5d5d5c\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: As the member knows, savings, reprioritisation, and revenue can all contribute to the consolidated fund\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef500f5570db4163a62922f76445afa0\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, so that\u2019s how we\u2019re going to do it now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad93551208244d34b157f3e9d62cdd01\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014to the accounts of the Government. Yes, we will be saving money, we will be reprioritising money, we will be raising revenue from new sources such as better audits at the Internal Revenue Department, and all of that will support two things. Yes, it will support income tax relief. It will also support better books.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022388f3a6e42154ae899652f550fc2ed35\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s heavy lifting there. Was the table of savings and initiatives that she issued in hard copy in the Budget lock-up yesterday a Treasury document?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022546be7f858da4f7ca04fe2c0c7c5c42b\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, the member will have to repeat his question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bf723bc2dd948c1890f3bae9ffe1593\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Was the table of savings and initiatives that she issued in hard copy in the Budget lock-up yesterday a Treasury document?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b7dec4669c3408fbb5f08c45d4eb77e\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: That was a table provided to me by Treasury that had gone through a Treasury assurance process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022281281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d083cf9e92eb4fdeaf0154de70105930\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: What are the \u201Cgood estimates\u201D that Treasury has given her of the cost of her tax cut policy that she talked about on Radio New Zealand this morning?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022408408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecf0a63aeb1a4aa0a695137b61952bbf\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Treasury have provided me with indicative costings of what it would cost to deliver on National\u2019s personal income tax plan. They\u2019ve caveated that carefully to say that it does depend on how we design that policy. According to the coalition agreement between National and ACT, we are still taking detailed design and implementation advice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220df76c32fdb04bc290aeb459e3ba280c\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Do the concepts of ACT\u2019s income tax policy as a pathway to the delivery of tax cuts\u2014that she noted just now in her answer and in her media release yesterday\u2014include the reduction of the 39 percent top tax rate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6e95f44c17141c59e472f70915d7c20\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba1e412f969849a79e5d5a144f6ef9eb\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: What other elements of ACT\u2019s income tax policy remain on the table?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281ee3a3bd19f4fa6a1a5e5115b7a8129\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: We are having detailed discussions. We\u2019re taking a range of advice. There are a lot of options. What we also share in common is this: we want to deliver income tax relief next year, but it is our view that, in principle, where we can, we should allow New Zealanders to keep more of their own money. We shouldn\u2019t be a Government that just keeps spending and spending and spending with very few results to show for that. New Zealanders had six years of that, and they didn\u2019t like it very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c773c6b402e24f068aafbbb7e1f5c6cf\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with Cameron Bagrie that he is surprised that she is doubling down on tax cuts and they \u201Cwould not be top of the pops for me\u201D right now, or indeed, the OECD\u2019s view that such tax cuts would add to inflation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022281408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220253a0838c93442c9e97bed5818c062a\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not surprised that Cameron Bagrie has a view; he is entitled to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be6dc0088f284322b6328b7e8e139070\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with the editorial in the New Zealand Herald this morning that her hyperbole will only serve to undercut her credibility in the long run, and will she join me in some taxpayer-funded hyperbole aversion courses, which apparently some colleagues think I need too?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222617316abdb1466ea81bc9384754661c\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sure that the member and I have many things in common. There are also many things that differentiate us. One of the things that I hope\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3d1b395d9ab451194154f42882a1ec8\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: The time I went to bed last night being one of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226baf0bf66af848a78883cee3736c7d3f\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and I\u2019m working with this fine team of people to deliver is that we will be people who, when we say things, we deliver them. We will be people who make things happen and deliver results. And yes, it was very nice to see you last night, Mr Robertson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002236897fd5fc60486cb1029721b8aae318\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Housing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022 data-id=\u0022f48f0eae3f604eada04472af1a5d7cf8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f48f0eae3f604eada04472af1a5d7cf8\u0022\u003EJAMES MEAGER (National\u2014Rangitata)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Housing: What recent announcements has he made regarding K\u0101inga Ora?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u002250b78058eba64e50b22a7220eda04308\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250b78058eba64e50b22a7220eda04308\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E Today, I have released the terms of reference for the independent review into K\u0101inga Ora - Homes and Communities, which was announced earlier this week. As a Government\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245deb66ae7614c2ab6b37bb78f418229\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s been demoted\u2014there\u2019s been a reshuffle. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf13b20092bf4d86be158c5d9a3a2755\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is the last question time of the year\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee32847f2fb648fc8edbdd0885bd5c34\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m just pondering the number of jokes I could make about demotions on the other side.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022215aad92528044c2879eff21e9a14279\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: While I\u2019m speaking, you\u2019re not. It is the last question time of the year. Just try and keep it a little bit seemly. [Interruption] Well, you know what I mean: less noisy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223abbcca98a5c42bdb794ba17d7aead91\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: As a Government, we are deeply concerned about the performance of K\u0101inga Ora - Homes and Communities. Their operating deficit is already at $520 million and is forecast to continue to increase. This hits the Government books directly and so it\u2019s important that K\u0101inga Ora\u2019s financial position is sustainable. The terms of reference announced today will allow us to get answers to these crucial questions on their finances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c5bbe1c5f8e4618bc23f53c7918fbe8\u0022\u003EJames Meager\u003C/span\u003E: What are the terms of reference he announced earlier today for the K\u0101inga Ora review?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbdec171210a446391b15b7bd0c1391b\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: The terms of reference include the financial viability of K\u0101inga Ora - Homes and Communities, asset procurement and management, engagement with communities and tenants, tenancy management, their remit, and the current institutional arrangements and whether they incentivise better performance. The scope we\u2019ve set will allow us to really get under the hood of K\u0101inga Ora and see what\u2019s working and what isn\u2019t. It will look at financial performance, the efficiency of their building and construction practices, as well as the things that impact Kiwi communities, like how they manage badly behaving tenants. I\u2019m looking forward to seeing their findings and recommendations so we can get K\u0101inga Ora back on track.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc8eb0397d804a98ae234638489e5194\u0022\u003EJames Meager\u003C/span\u003E: What do his recent K\u0101inga Ora announcements mean for hard-working New Zealanders like those in mid- and South Canterbury?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022749a2c3097be48e194c1987bcf0b819c\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for that very good question and admire his advocacy for those people. K\u0101inga Ora\u2019s performance impacts every New Zealander, including those in mid- and South Canterbury, those who need support, or who may be looking for support in the future. It also impacts every New Zealander who pays tax, and they deserve to see their hard-earned tax dollars spent wisely. That\u2019s why we are very focused on getting K\u0101inga Ora back on track.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002209c349dff40b45ec82b025abe9334213\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u00228d469810a04b48be91b11dd67378aded\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d469810a04b48be91b11dd67378aded\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does the Government intend to implement the National Party\u2019s climate dividend policy; if so, will all the funding currently tagged to the Climate Emergency Response Fund be used to pay for it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u00222fcf33b079a04fc7be21d64908ce52b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222fcf33b079a04fc7be21d64908ce52b7\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E In answer to the first part of the question, yes, and consistent with our coalition agreements this will be subject to final consideration and decision making by Cabinet. In answer to the second part of the question, the mini-Budget yesterday confirmed decisions to enable the climate dividend, including returning funding from the Climate Emergency Response Fund, returning funding from the Government Investment in Decarbonising Industry Fund (GIDI), and the National Land Transport Fund. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e25b62277bee441187a28400a95a3a06\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Will every household receive an equal split of the total dividend funding pool adjusted for household size?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022602013de006b4c5f8d47bc2e227c697a\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: As the member would know if she had read the climate dividend policy which she referred to in her primary question, it is our intention that the climate dividend be used to support income tax reduction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221731272aba244e8194b72454b59bb7d7\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Will the climate dividend scale with the carbon price?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2860dd0faff45189c01af4f588426f0\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The member would have to repeat her question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a27de1d1f7ea4a3a94b38e408f80f7a5\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Certainly. Will the climate dividend scale with the carbon price?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdd94e7a14c846408c1c3df1094ba528\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not sure what the member is referring to. The climate dividend is intended to be the proceeds of the emissions trading scheme, and we intend that those proceeds will be used to support income tax reduction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237be798ba99f49149b4bf1b8bd4fdb17\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with the Treasury: \u201Cover the long term, the total cost of achieving emissions reductions targets and addressing the impacts of climate change will be significant and is likely to exceed provisions made in the forecasts\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229adb126c16f44e2eac54c856e60c6f2b\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The Government is committed to meeting our climate change commitments, and as part of our mini-Budget we considered the climate implications of returning funding from different initiatives including GIDI and the Clean Car Discount. We also considered how decisions might impact our ability to meet future emissions budgets. From the advice I have received, I do not expect mini-Budget decisions to pose a significant risk to achieving our first emissions budget. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd2d65c922cc41f190fccfa1d40cf1fc\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Isn\u2019t it true that she has no intention of meeting any recognised criteria of a climate dividend with her so-called climate dividend, and what it is is no more than a raid on funding for emissions reductions spending to fund her tax cuts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a01483f3ca3a4712ad44c76c39c0a392\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: No, and I\u2019ll tell you what I won\u2019t do either: raid money from hard-working New Zealanders to give big cheques to profitable businesses like BlueScope Steel and Fonterra. Hard-working Kiwis deserve that money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227ead7954be7b45d89218e0b0999acc4b\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022 data-id=\u00226f9a657768fd40e4b4a3915a2a7d1e70\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f9a657768fd40e4b4a3915a2a7d1e70\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Te Tai Tonga)\u003C/span\u003E to the Acting Prime Minister: Does he stand by his Government\u2019s statements and policies on Te Tiriti o Waitangi?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022be21218566094316ac9cd44f547bf613\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be21218566094316ac9cd44f547bf613\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Acting Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E That is the Government\u2019s wont to do, but given that some parties in this House believe that the Treaty of Waitangi is an evolving document, they are confusingly arguing that we should not stand by our statements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3a2c3dd562f429b81bd4e8f2b695936\u0022\u003ET\u0101kuta Ferris\u003C/span\u003E: What examination and research, if any, has the Government undertaken into the adverse effects on M\u0101ori of the legislation currently being passed under urgency?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022711576416e0343c0ac77b99166cd45f5\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: The reality is that the legislation being passed under urgency is for everybody in this country regardless of their gender, background, their creed, or where they came from. We treat people all the same and don\u2019t have special treatment based on ancestry, which some in this House prefer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6bc13fdb933410e927ecb328cc4995e\u0022\u003ET\u0101kuta Ferris\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Government applied any Tiriti-based analysis on the policies currently being heard under urgency; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272a23fdb15404cf7bebd2ff736ef86da\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: The Treaty-based analysis which this Government refers was written 101 years ago by a M\u0101ori who got his law degree in the record time in this country in just two years flat. His name was Sir Apirana Ngata. That\u2019s our authority; what\u2019s yours?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226687c99bbbff44f9b5187a6cfe9e69cf\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, please, Mr Speaker. I believe Standing Order 112, relevancy to the question\u2014this question isn\u2019t about T\u0101 Apirana Ngata or Ng\u0101ti Porou. It is about Te Tiriti, which was written before the existence of Apirana Ngata. If we could return to the kaupapa, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221498c599a51b473aba3f4e8a0068b73d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, but the question asked what authority the Government was relying on, and I think that was a reasonable answer in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9f22e86dff543bd8b137a7bfabefa69\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: But that, with all due respect, again referring to Standing Order 112\u2014relevancy\u2014there is absolutely no relevance of T\u0101 Apirana Ngata being used in this House, and being misrepresented. That was a hundred years old, and we\u2019re talking about today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229def98e65d649b6b00b7aa28e6164c5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, with respect, I think it would be odd not to accept that Sir Apirana Ngata had a reasonable degree of authority when speaking about the Treaty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5638fce4c4545be9633a55d4a3db3c0\u0022\u003ET\u0101kuta Ferris\u003C/span\u003E: How can he think it\u2019s appropriate to deliberately exclude the Tiriti partner in the deliberation of legislation that will have a profound impact on the lives and wellbeing of wh\u0101nau, tamariki, and even the mokopuna of himself?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227845e75e2e7e4359b4f41c4975f9a5e9\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for acknowledging that the legislation will have a profound impact upon all the people he talked about and a profound impact for the better, based on their genuine needs, like was announced yesterday with respect to certain rates of treatment that were targeted directly to the M\u0101ori people\u2014in this case, on the basis of need, not some preferential basis that arises from the beltway of Wellington or the sociological department of the universities with no connection with ordinary M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b135738031594d068e421fe64d65b70b\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Again, a point of order, please. Standing Order 121, \u201CPersonal reflections\u201D\u2014while we understand that the Deputy Prime Minister may not reflect and even rate M\u0101ori who go to university, that is a personal reflection and doesn\u2019t address the question that was put down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3fed97078924400bb36fc107f0156d2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I don\u2019t think it constitutes a personal reflection. I\u2019ve been listening very carefully to the answers, because I understand there\u2019s some sensitivity, but I don\u2019t think that\u2019s a fair suggestion with regard to the Deputy Prime Minister\u2019s answers this afternoon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264bb801f5c7b4dfd8af9e5ad9c95e40f\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, please?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f33b07f65c28401490a8f52c74aeade3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is it a new point of order or is it a continuation of the point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1432b8c30d543c0816c312cd98632b8\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: No, it wasn\u2019t new.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220b45855b17f4c0e97c51caea008b20b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, give it a go; it\u2019s the last day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022610f4da0b391474d9399f006885abd01\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, your generosity\u2014thank you, e te P\u012Bka. It is the offensive reference and certainly there is, I guess, a duty of care on us if we do look at 121 and the fact that we don\u2019t want people out there thinking that there are ordinary M\u0101ori and not ordinary M\u0101ori. Every M\u0101ori matters, especially those who have opinions, and this is a personal reference. And kei te pai t\u0113r\u0101, if that is indeed the Deputy Prime Minister\u2019s views, but it isn\u2019t one that should be reflected in the House. Everyone should be treated and talked about equally. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022821b64facfb645f6963426102f4b5bb7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Excuse me. With all due respect, I think that if the member were to look at the Hansard responses from the Rt Hon Winston Peters, it would be hard to conclude that he was saying anything other than that. We\u2019ll move on\u2014question No. 8\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bec71f1fd3474294b779573510e4f9f8\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. Thank you, Mr Speaker. In that exchange just now about the previous points of order, the Rt Hon Winston Peters was referred to as the Deputy Prime Minister, whereas in the question he is the Prime Minister or the Acting Prime Minister, and I just wanted some clarity about whether he was speaking as the Deputy Prime Minister or as the Prime Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d762515adc8f4da7898e285dd2fd67f8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: OK, well, the point is that the point of order was not directed in the way perhaps it should have been, so I responded appropriately to that. But he is here today. He is acting as the Prime Minister\u2014no question about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ed0244da5f4425cb2c26d2bb415f6c1\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Great news, James!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebad8367b6524cf795439096ee4fbf35\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And I\u2019m sure he\u2019s very happy for the nation to have learnt that by virtue of this question time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229eff2bdf014645db90ccee4492de4081\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Health (Pharmac)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022 data-id=\u00226319ab73d2994d7d9a4d83e57445efee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226319ab73d2994d7d9a4d83e57445efee\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker, and merry Christmas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b45468ee6eb4ec9be920e5d5a4ce149\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thanks very much. Merry Christmas to you too, Todd. Are we going to go around the whole House? It could take a while. But, actually\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022602d834db7a54dcd9507a38bece86ace\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON\u003C/span\u003E: Just a special merry Christmas for you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a79bf4f6ab94690b55adf266f4f9537\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014we\u2019d all like to get home for Christmas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022 data-id=\u00229144af6e421648a98dc5dd9330a93278\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229144af6e421648a98dc5dd9330a93278\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON (ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Health (Pharmac): Why is the Government planning to change rules relating to the availability of pseudoephedrine?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec06878f1b694122b61125ab6af035ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec06878f1b694122b61125ab6af035ff\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Associate Minister of Health (Pharmac)):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, merry Christmas. The Government, in its coalition documents, has a commitment to make pseudoephedrine-based cough and cold medicines available again after over a decade of New Zealanders being denied these medications. The simple reason is because when you\u2019ve got the winter ills, you need the good stuff that works. People agree that pseudoephedrine medicines are more effective, and, unfortunately, the original purpose of restricting them\u2014that was to stop the supply of methamphetamine\u2014has completely failed as the price of that drug has, sadly, gone down and it has become more available. So the ban didn\u2019t work; let\u2019s get the good stuff back for the winter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b78b75deb78f42a08062c94e7c030a00\u0022\u003ETodd Stephenson\u003C/span\u003E: Will the increased access to pseudoephedrine put us out of step with the rest of the world?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf7e303f640e4026a977d1b2bbc83838\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: No, it will not. Countries such as Australia, the United Kingdom, the United States, and Canada all have pseudoephedrine-based medications, which are able to be purchased without a prescription. This change will move New Zealand into line with countries that we generally like to compare ourselves with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f0a99c6404c47348154314790b43b91\u0022\u003ETodd Stephenson\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister think the removal of the ban on pseudoephedrine could inform his approach in other areas of regulatory reform in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a55d0cc73b284c539f183389b109ffbd\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think it\u2019s right across Government that we intend to take a very responsible approach to regulation. We don\u2019t want to make rules if they don\u2019t have a clear problem to be solved or if the benefits of the rule don\u2019t exceed the cost. And clearly in the case of banning pseudoephedrine, the benefits have been trifling, the cost to people\u2019s welfare have been large, and so the rule will go. And, yes, in conversation with the Government\u2019s dynamic, young Minister for Regulation, I\u2019ve learnt that that\u2019s going to be our approach to many matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225fe9476d0eea4a728bb924a9573f2b60\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022 data-id=\u0022eff349eb37ea4070b6b9ee3dab90b249\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eff349eb37ea4070b6b9ee3dab90b249\u0022\u003EGREG FLEMING (National\u2014Maungakiekie)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te M\u0101ngai. Meri Kirihimete. What recent announcements has he made on uplifting immunisation rates for vulnerable population groups?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u00227d6285726ff14636a22a4a5cd322ce81\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d6285726ff14636a22a4a5cd322ce81\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019d firstly like to thank the health sector for keeping us safe over this past year and for their care and attention over the upcoming holiday period. Thank you. This morning the Prime Minister, Minister Potaka, and I visited Porirua to announce a $50 million package to help local providers to lift the immunisation rates for the most vulnerable in their communities. Low immunisation rates put children at risk of life-threatening, and, in some cases, deadly illnesses such as whooping cough and measles. It is critical that we take preventative health steps such as immunisation to protect those most in need and to drive better health outcomes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c482761e66ae4712b1a5eb4e43bb1c6a\u0022\u003EGreg Fleming\u003C/span\u003E: What feedback has he received about this announcement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0b874ed3c5740e9ba35adbb9cb57df2\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI\u003C/span\u003E: I was very pleased to be joined at this event by local providers, iwi partners, and, of course, hard-working community-based health workers. It was great to hear from these providers on the work they do. We all have shared determination to make a difference for those with the greatest need and who have the highest risk. Delivering healthcare in communities helps relieve the burden on our under-pressure hospitals, and this Government looks forward to supporting local organisations who do such outstanding work for their people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0c04ae2555543f896916bc575bbb4c3\u0022\u003EGreg Fleming\u003C/span\u003E: What other steps will the Minister take to lift immunisation rates?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bde14a82aa543b3b828b0ce42b9d237\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI\u003C/span\u003E: National campaigned on improved immunisation rates, and these will feature as part of our health targets, which will be announced as part of our 100-day plan. I look forward to 2024 and a new year when this Government will continue working to deliver timely access to quality healthcare for all New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022448f198cd0ab4aa997c307b870435c57\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014M\u0101ori Development\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00225b53465404ac48879b7fc387824fb90a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b53465404ac48879b7fc387824fb90a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Moving now to question No. 10, in the name of the Hon Dr Duncan Webb but I think may be asked by the Hon Willie Jackson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u00222b038ac0c79742f7930dcf8ac5a06b0b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b038ac0c79742f7930dcf8ac5a06b0b\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Speaker, Meri Kirihimete to you\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5b14a752ffd4be1a35134a70807e7fe\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, yeah, it\u2019s good. Do you mean it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022699a4dcdc2bf43f2a6f7a1034782b1af\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, do you want a translation? Merry Christmas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4a3e53dffe347ce8c696eefcaab848b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I asked if you mean it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d28fa31e83a4ec4aabfbaba1e4f1d8a\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely. All the best to you and your wh\u0101nau, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2e8199a519e46318540e9f2fc04b19d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, thank you\u2014thanks very much, and the same compliment back to the member. How long is this going to go on for?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f298a1b4cd1d45cfa6dfe9d31103e4da\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Ng\u0101 mihi o te Kirihimete ki a koe, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b65ce801ba84b1199472d85a0ff4ae3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Kei te pai. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u0022839827af943a480cb41aa32db48f66b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022839827af943a480cb41aa32db48f66b6\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for M\u0101ori Development: Does he stand by all of his statements and actions? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022 data-id=\u00225e3dbbdd7b1340caaabc246418094ec7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e3dbbdd7b1340caaabc246418094ec7\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA (Minister for M\u0101ori Development):\u003C/span\u003E Ng\u0101 mihi o te tau hou p\u014Dhutakawa ki a koe. At the time and in the context of making those statements, \u0101na, particularly the statements that I have made that this coalition Government will be ruthlessly focused on delivering on the needs of M\u0101ori and all New Zealanders, particularly in housing, health, and education\u2014unlike the previous Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e70bc756169a4b44b67f15fd9f635041\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister indicated that the funding of the Waitangi Tribunal will be reduced either directly or indirectly, and, if so, is he using a reallocation of resources to help fund tax cuts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022186f5c3a98ea4e8386470ceb1bb45bd9\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: K\u0101ore au i te paku mahara ki t\u0113r\u0101 k\u014Drero i k\u012B mai ai au ki te marea. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E[I don\u2019t recall at all that statement that I made to the public.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e74f53e997ea405bad8fdb3440339a78\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Then why has the Waitangi Tribunal senior leadership team informed the tribunal officers of cost cuts and Judge Wainwright of the tribunal has stated that cost cuts are necessary across all inquiries in the current financial year and that financial constraints are expected to continue and possibly intensify?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228be93cec52c144698c6e8db827e9b488\u0022\u003ETAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: I have not spoken to Judge Wainwright in many, many years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdf81a0faea749c794d22c332a75e848\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Has he considered access to justice issues that arise for M\u0101ori claimants from budget cuts, and how does he expect to resolve these issues when he cuts funding designed to address claims brought in relation to Crown breaches of the Treaty of Waitangi?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ff5e31418c245c28199f2ad276e32f8\u0022\u003ETAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: I have not asked for any budget cuts in the Waitangi Tribunal. I have no recollection of the comments that have been made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224465bb4ded6e452ebfdf0cd2934e75e7\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister, along with the Prime Minister, prepared to front up at Waitangi in February 2024 to discuss why he is looking at cutting funding to the Waitangi Tribunal, and, if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224dd765b6a1c7446c8263b0c020abc111\u0022\u003ETAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: As I have mentioned before in this Whare, I look forward to the manaakitanga and the hospitality of our Ng\u0101puhi relatives in the motu at Waitangi 2024, and I do not have any recollection of talking to anyone about cutting the funding of the Waitangi Tribunal. T\u012Bhei mauri ora!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222cce1ea805644bae97a8899f1bdc587a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Question No. 11 in the name of Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u2014Feliz Navidad. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228451ea5d1a604ed4a54d69d7dbb2351a\u0022\u003E Question No. 11\u2014Social Development and Employment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u002281b53b60c48444a5a5d33fa91eb2a5a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281b53b60c48444a5a5d33fa91eb2a5a4\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: Feliz Navidad, Mr Speaker. What, if anything, is she doing to end poverty for people receiving a benefit as we head into the holiday season?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022af3713fd21b64ee88bff830d76a84210\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af3713fd21b64ee88bff830d76a84210\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Our Government will continue to make benefit and tax credit payments over this time, and in April, main benefits will be increased through the adjustment by the cost of living. This change will protect the real incomes of benefit recipients while putting the benefits system on a more sustainable footing. This early decision is expected to mean that main benefits will be higher next year than they would have been if we had retained the current index to wage growth. Assistance through the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) will continue over the Christmas period to ensure that people can contact MSD if they need support. This Government\u2019s view is that the best route out of poverty is through paid employment. My officials have already begun work on how we can better support people off welfare and into jobs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226868044188b94685b5ecbf97e952c533\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with recent analysis that found that changes made to benefits will mean that over 300,000 people already living below the poverty line will be up to $3,120 worse off, per year, by the end of this decade?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022228eed98d9c34f62af5fed1c1edaa3dd\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: I agree with indexation of benefits to the Consumers Price Index (CPI), which means that the real costs that people face on welfare will be taken care of. And I agree that during this dire cost of living crisis the Government\u2019s focus and priority will be how to alleviate that to reduce people\u2019s hardship.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc3d0ec668e643088578806ab886e3c7\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Will she continue implementing any of the Welfare Expert Advisory Group recommendations, such as a recommendation to index income support to movements in average wages or prices, whichever is higher, and, if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022589b79908a7145d1a471f2996b13effd\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: This Government has made an early decision, as I said in my primary answer, to index main benefits to the cost of living. This is to adequately reflect the costs that those on benefit face.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce889182f3644e4b8c906fcc8b3101a7\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Does she believe that people receiving income support deserve to live in poverty, and, if not, why won\u2019t she lift benefit levels above the poverty line?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247002e60b5ea485a8b85d6f94f302f2a\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: This side of the House doesn\u2019t want anyone living in poverty, which is why we absolutely have a relentless drive and focus on getting more on welfare into work where they will have higher incomes, more opportunities and choices, and I will never, ever make any excuse for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236c6a850b4d04d1d81812cbb65b6f61b\u0022\u003EH\u016Bhana Lyndon\u003C/span\u003E: Is she aware of the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child and their report that has shared that they\u2019re seriously concerned at the disproportionate number of tamariki M\u0101ori and Pasifika experiencing food insecurity and housing deprivation in Aotearoa New Zealand, and, if you are, will you lift main benefits above the poverty line?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7f54cdb825041a5984885f2be8e99d8\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: This Government\u2019s very clear focus is supporting individuals and families into work, which will lift their income and lift them out of poverty. Sixty percent of the children currently living in material hardship are in benefit-dependent homes, so we will focus on how we support more people off welfare and into work. It benefits them; more importantly, it benefits their children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262bb456042e44aee9fd9c061004c11d5\u0022\u003EH\u016Bhana Lyndon\u003C/span\u003E: What is she doing to ease Christmas pressure on our front-line community services such as Whang\u0101rei\u2019s own 155 Whare Kai social supermarket, where the CEO said to me\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201CWh\u0101nau are going hungry. Kai continues to be our highest demand. Our 155 Whare Kai supermarket is booked through to February already. It is very sad and it\u2019s getting worse in our community.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3474721f2194e45819de9452cb97300\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: I met with organisations in the Food Network just yesterday and acknowledge the work that they are providing on the ground across New Zealand, and I also acknowledge that this is an incredibly challenging time because of economic mismanagement by the previous Government that has driven the cost of living higher for longer\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289d28a3fb38546fb9ea0e9d1a2f32bcf\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s enough. That\u2019s enough, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb0b55ebe5c145c48298c4197333cd32\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I don\u2019t believe the question was addressed. The question was in relationship to actions\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278ddc3ba43ec4b5c9ede526668d71c44\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry\u2014points of order are heard in silence. Please start again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022379cd30c88e24d9fa485e3ed92e34a63\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I don\u2019t believe the question was addressed. The question was in relationship to actions, not in relationship to the past Government, and at no point did she talk about or mention any points of actions that she would be taking in relationship to the quote that was given.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0782fc301cc4b32bc8ad18e8f5e364e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, previous Speakers\u2019 rulings do allow a Minister to refer to circumstances in their current portfolio that may lead to difficulties for them because of previous Government actions. So I don\u2019t know that that was particularly out of scope.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b5bad99092843e197e9983a1c069eb0\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, the question was none the less asking about what she would do in relationship to the quote. I take your point that she can point to previous conversations, but she did not address the one and only leg of the question, which was about what she would be doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022017813eedbac434c8277e271e9a27fb4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I know, but the Minister is a Minister of the Crown, a Minister of the Government. They don\u2019t act individually; they act collectively.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002206fd96d8f5ee4bba9152f3a99403f29c\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Revenue\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef8636f48aea4fe882ea9715308daeeb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef8636f48aea4fe882ea9715308daeeb\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Revenue: What announcements has he made regarding the Taxation Principles Reporting Act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00228c52932ba1c3435faf697d654a397f65\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c52932ba1c3435faf697d654a397f65\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E This week I have announced that the Government will be repealing the Taxation Principles Reporting Act. This Act requires IRD to report against a set of principles as decided by the previous Government. Unfortunately, this Act is little more than a make-work programme, using valuable IRD resources on producing reports rather than focusing on core business. Repealing this Act will allow IRD to deliver on the real priorities for our tax system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a17567efc0994d8d9b2eddba18bf4331\u0022\u003EDan Bidois\u003C/span\u003E: What are the principles this Government does support for the tax system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f9a073acfb841f58b47de0023012cc4\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: This Government is committed to making sure that the tax system is as simple as possible to navigate. Making it easy for individuals and businesses to interact with the tax system is good for them and better for the system as a whole. The Government is also committed to delivering tax relief for Kiwis and the boost in their back pocket to those who need it most. We\u2019ll do a whole lot more on a yearly basis than such reporting proposed under this Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e04820972b8d46499b1f133a6e26ad1a\u0022\u003EDan Bidois\u003C/span\u003E: What feedback has he seen from the sector on the Taxation Principles Reporting Act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272243afa5a004c82806ef536d9068762\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: The previous Government received extensive feedback on the Act from stakeholders when they passed it into law earlier this year. The message from them was clear: this Act provided no benefit to the tax system\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9b549b0744c4b8a8dd8bb7c7b55af0e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yep, that\u2019s enough. Thank you. That\u2019s enough. Is there another supplementary on that? OK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002246a169121f1543b1980048a999dcc26d\u0022\u003ETaxation Principles Reporting Act Repeal Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002234b12d02620a4442bddc84ec6b638a65\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000614\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225d56e7c6ea1c4b06a12f38d0a07d0b82\u0022\u003EPart 1  Repeal of this Act (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00225fec4c814be645798d3ffe7cf114c322\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225fec4c814be645798d3ffe7cf114c322\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Can we have more quiet in the Chamber, please. Those that are leaving, do your talking out in the Ayes and Noes lobbies. Thank you. Members, the committee is resumed on the Taxation Principles Reporting Act Repeal Bill. When we suspended for the lunch break, we were considering Part 1. Once again, the question is that Part 1 be agreed to. Now, I just did want to make the point that this is a very small piece of legislation. The committee stage on Part 1 has already traversed about an hour and 10 minutes, from my estimation. So we need to make sure that any points that are made need to be extremely close to the mark.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u0022bbc7a047cfb141c192472dc6b444e642\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bbc7a047cfb141c192472dc6b444e642\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Green\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. Sorry, Madam Chair, we can\u2019t quite hear you, and I\u2019m not sure if your microphone is on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee8948a56321410c94c2fb3c87413300\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee8948a56321410c94c2fb3c87413300\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022 data-id=\u00228b878dc265784a7da10b39363f713e94\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b878dc265784a7da10b39363f713e94\u0022\u003ENANCY LU (National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002263c322bff3864b9d82137f77aefa6304\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on the question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00228afa751306c543489a03e9d92da925c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228afa751306c543489a03e9d92da925c6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Dr Deborah Russell\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 3 be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ea90384c1d074fd1a3895e3fd8542bbc\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00229809cfb9b3a84d928f223403b7850b79\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229809cfb9b3a84d928f223403b7850b79\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 3 be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c5afac20ee664a4da79607835d57b5c3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d8670aded25b45b2a6015d0a893ffcc2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002254836aba460242ab9c8c8854bd5aaf50\u0022\u003EPart 2  Repeal of Taxation Principles Reporting Act 2023 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002290016914b2cf4724b3763e3a75d6196e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002290016914b2cf4724b3763e3a75d6196e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to Part 2. Part 2 is the debate on clause 4, \u201CRepeal of Taxation Principles Reporting Act 2023\u201D, and clause 5. The question is that Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022030733ebc5524564a84609e6d9887421\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022030733ebc5524564a84609e6d9887421\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. We have had an extensive debate on this already\u2014on Part 1 of this bill. I do want to talk just briefly on Part 2 of the bill. It has the operative clause in it, the one that actually does the repeal work of the Taxation Principles Reporting Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThe Taxation Principles Reporting Act asks for Inland Revenue to prepare a report\u2014an interim report some years, and a triannual extensive report\u2014reporting on how the tax system does against some key principles. The principles are listed in Schedule 1 of the Act. The principles are: horizontal equity, efficiency, vertical equity, revenue integrity, compliance and administrative costs, certainty and predictability, flexibility and adaptability. Reasonably well-agreed principles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EHowever, in his first speech on this bill, in the first reading of the bill, the Minister of Revenue said that the Act serves no purpose because it just was an exercise in\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201Credundant reporting\u201D. Look, that redundant reporting implies that this information on these principles is available elsewhere and in a form that is readily available to New Zealanders, to citizens. So I would like to hear from the Minister where else we can get a coherent and easy-to-find, easy-to-access piece of reporting on the New Zealand tax system that encompasses those key principles, or, even if not these particular principles, the generally agreed principles that tax experts use when assessing tax systems.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo if the Minister could let me know where else we can find this information that makes the Taxation Principles Reporting Act something that engages in redundant reporting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00220f576f1330bb4a87ac17bb0aee4ebac1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f576f1330bb4a87ac17bb0aee4ebac1\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Yeah, in the interests of good back-and-flow, as I\u2019ve noted before the Inland Revenue\u2019s annual report does include significant amounts of information in a variety of areas. I acknowledge the member\u2019s point in terms of a concise table of principles, but the report does include a comprehensive nature of those elements within that report. On that basis, I\u2019m comfortable that that information will cover and suffice the member\u2019s request.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u0022c164d85a2c6948f7a877d4707925c219\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c164d85a2c6948f7a877d4707925c219\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Green\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E E te M\u0101ngai, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. As the previous speaker\u2019s just alluded to, what we\u2019re in now, with Part 2, is the operative part of the legislation, and to that effect I have a few questions for the Minister, albeit referring to what was referenced in Part 1, but it was actually about the substance of this legislation, that being the taxation principles reporting repealment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThe Minister said in the debate on Part 1 that there is no report and that he has not seen any draft version of a report, which, again, just for the sake of the record, under the status quo of the laws currently on our statute book, should be done, at least in draft form, because it is due to be published, as the law currently sits\u2014until it is repealed and this Government rams through under urgency the third reading of this bill. As it currently sits, the IRD should still be functioning towards publication on 31 December.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo I just really wanted to drill into that point as made by the Minister. Is it the case that he has been offered absolutely no evidence, data, briefing to the incoming Minister, memorandum, correspondence, or otherwise on where this work programme was at under the IRD\u2019s work programme? So that\u2019s the first question: where is this work programme currently at, given where we are at in this stage of the development of that report under status quo legislation as required, because that legislation still right now sits on our statute book?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ETo the second point, the Minister has made the point that he still expects that there is going to be transparency of reporting from the IRD. This is an interesting one, because it\u2019s also referenced within the regulatory impact statement here, and I quote: \u201CInland Revenue intends to consider means of improving its current reporting under the Tax Administration Act 1994,\u201D\u2014good year, that was\u2014\u201Csubject to internal resourcing and government policies.\u201D To that effect, what I\u2019m hearing is that the IRD is asking this incoming Minister to actually continue to allow them the resources to continue something along the lines of the reporting as is required under the status quo legislation which they are rushing under urgency to repeal. And in needing that resource, I have a secondary flow-on question, which is: what kind of resource does he expect or anticipate allocating the IRD so that they can do that form of reporting, which at this point is ambiguous? We have no idea what that might look like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo just to be really clear to the Minister, who I hope is writing these questions down so that he can answer them\u2014that first question there, or the first part of that second round of questions, was on the engagement that he has had with IRD around the fact that they intend to still do more transparent reporting for the sake of accountability on the tax system. The second tranche of that second question is: therefore, what resourcing is he anticipating giving the IRD to undertake this new ambiguous work programme of potentially reporting against tax principles? We\u2019re not quite sure. Because we know, again, under the status quo, per his own advice, that we\u2019re looking at 2.5 fulltime-equivalents (FTEs) being allocated to this work programme\u2014again, for the sake of the House, 0.06 percent of the entire workforce within the IRD. This is minuscule, and it feels as though this is very much a matter of throwing out the baby with the bath water.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThis kind of leads to the follow-on question of why not just allow this report to come out for the sake of having a more informed public debate on what it is that the National Party is so vehemently opposed to, as opposed to just trying to get rid of this before it comes out into the public light, based on a bogeyman that we can\u2019t really all conceive of in any meaningful way because we don\u2019t know what the shape of that potential report might look like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo just to really re-emphasise that point to the Minister, is it the case that he has had absolutely no engagement with his officials from IRD, given that he is saying that he\u2019s seen no report or no draft report, that no report exists\u2014he\u2019s had no engagement with them on where they\u2019re at in that work programme, as is due out in six ostensible working days? Is it the case that he has had no meaningful engagement with the IRD on what kind of comes next, given his own regulatory impact statement says that they want to shake their reporting up even more so? And, thirdly, what resources are necessary to give to the IRD to do that next iteration of reporting? Because all of us are kind of in the dark here about what that might look like, and it\u2019s really difficult to get a coherent understanding of whether that will be any different to the 2.5 FTEs currently allocated under status quo legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022d8f501be865d4db7bd4dd08d0d71ab2e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d8f501be865d4db7bd4dd08d0d71ab2e\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E So just responding to the member\u2019s questions\u2014as I said before, I have not seen a copy of the report, nor do I have a copy of a report or a draft report or any aspect of the report. The reality is that with this Act being repealed following the work which we\u2019re undertaking at the moment, I will not receive a copy of that report, and I expect that IRD will handle any work that they\u2019ve undertaken to date in the normal way in which they would do so in line with their policies. In regards to where we\u2019re at, that\u2019s where we are on the report. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EI acknowledge the member\u2019s feedback and frustration around that, but the reality is we are undertaking a piece of work with the IRD\u2014as we are doing with all Government departments with the new Government to ensure that the Government departments\u2019 workload and their focus is aligned with Government and coalition priorities. That is our priority. That is the direction and conversation that I\u2019m having with my relevant people within the relevant ministries that I am responsible for. As I have said clearly, and as our Government has said clearly, this piece of work is not a priority for this Government, and hence we\u2019re repealing this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u0022c521cbd189f34f8e988147c022aa41d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c521cbd189f34f8e988147c022aa41d1\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. This is just a really quick question, actually, of the Minister\u2019s commitment in his previous response that there will be some reporting in the annual report. My question to Minister is: whereabouts in the annual report? Because the current annual report has some information about organisation and capability, it has some of the statement of performance, and it also has the auditor\u2019s report. So I just want to have it crystal clear for this committee: whereabouts in the annual report is the Minister committing to including some reference to the principles and an assessment of it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295f393d6d73c4a6b9288d571f1921b21\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002279ac6901cb0c4a6382358f48219743c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002279ac6901cb0c4a6382358f48219743c5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Just before I take the Minister, point of order from Dr Duncan Webb.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022629e5bb97c4e44998aa9cfbca94b4b33\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022629e5bb97c4e44998aa9cfbca94b4b33\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for all questions to be taken as one debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b3ff982191a9493888ea6910e314bd25\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b3ff982191a9493888ea6910e314bd25\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection to that course of action? There is not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022df067bd11ec547d8a573e0c5f8bf734c\u0022\u003EPart 2 and clauses 1 and 2 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022eeff1e0a62fb43918332f035be5a31f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eeff1e0a62fb43918332f035be5a31f3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: So the question is that Part 2 and clauses 1 and 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u002291089f798ce04f0983d7a0944e6494e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002291089f798ce04f0983d7a0944e6494e4\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Chair. Acknowledging the question from the Hon Barbara Edmonds, the point that I was referring to in regards to principles being included within the annual report is that the elements of tax principles are embedded within a whole variety of information within the annual report. What we acknowledged on a prior question around a succinct list or categorisation of that, that does not exist. But the inherent nature of tax principles, as it is, was embedded within that report. If the member wants to propose any other ideas on how they believe that might be useful, as I indicated to the prior speaker in the member\u2019s party, then they\u2019re most welcome to get in touch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc54f115fdf044e9a01a0d3a88d94da0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc54f115fdf044e9a01a0d3a88d94da0\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Green\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E I just wanted to say that I\u2019m appreciative of the Minister engaging in this back and forth. I think it\u2019s a really important and constructive process for us to have in lieu of having a fulsome select committee process here as we pass this under urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo a few more questions for the Minister following his answers to my questioning just before. He noted that he has not seen that report and he does not intend to see that report. But with your leave, Madam Chair, it does not feel as though the actual question which I asked\u2014which is whether he has seen any advice, any correspondence, any memorandums, or had any conversations with officials about where in the work programme that report is actually at. Because the Minister, as the Hon James Shaw said before in the second reading of this bill earlier today, can decide that he wants to hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil, but it doesn\u2019t necessarily mean that it doesn\u2019t exist. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo my question to the Minister remains: does he have any idea where in the work programme this report is, given that under the law as it currently sits on the statute book, this report is due out on 31 December, in 10 days? Two of those days are Christmas and Boxing Day\u2014public holidays\u2014two of those days are weekend days, and the other days, we would assume, will largely be taken up by the holiday of the public servants who largely work in these white-collar jobs where most people will be on break from tomorrow, which would lead us to the inevitable conclusion that this work should already be done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EIf the Minister is to say, potentially, that he doesn\u2019t know that, then I would then say that that begs the question of what on earth else is happening with Inland Revenue (IR) that the Minister is not aware of. So the core question is whether the Minister has had any engagement with his IR officials about where this work programme is currently at, because based on the law as it currently stands, it should be near publication. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThe second question\u2014because I think there\u2019s been some really important and valuable engagement and discussion around the fact that he still believes that there needs to be some form of reporting against some form of taxation principles. Again, we\u2019re still kind of left in the dark as to what that may or may not look like. Which of the seven principles within the taxation principle reporting legislation as it currently stands, again, does he or does the Government disagree with? Because throughout the Finance and Expenditure Committee process a few months ago now, a rigorous process with dozens and dozens of submitters that we heard from with an independent adviser, who advised us that these tax principles were commonly known, to the extent that they didn\u2019t actually require descriptors within the legislation itself, the National Party and the ACT Party, throughout that process, didn\u2019t disagree with any of those seven principles, which leads us to the conclusion that they agree with the importance of those seven principles, the likes of equity and vertical integration and otherwise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo that kind of begs the question: why is it that they are now revoking the reporting against those principles which they agree upon? And that begs the question which the Hon James Shaw put before of whose interests does this bill serve? Because it\u2019s definitely not the interests of a general public who deserve to be informed about the functioning of our tax system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EBecause if I may make the point, and not to belabour it, we operate in a dearth of evidence in this country when it comes to making meaningful public policy decisions, not just in the tax arena but also actually when we\u2019re talking about housing policy. We actually don\u2019t even know how many landlords there are in this country. We have to scrape to get the data from Land Information New Zealand, the Companies Office, the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment bond lodgement data, and a range of other areas to try and pull together any meaningful insights. I had thought that this legislation, as it sits on our books, would have been a really useful potential bipartisan accord to move towards consistent reporting, which can inform a better public debate and a stronger democracy as a result.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo those questions, if I may repeat them, are: where in the cycle or in the work programme is that report at, or is it simply a matter that the Minister doesn\u2019t want his officials to tell him? And secondarily, what of the seven principles does the Minister or the Government and its three parties inherently disagree with? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022b4deac7079964c019b319a23ffb34ef1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b4deac7079964c019b319a23ffb34ef1\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Chair. I acknowledge we are getting close to Christmas and we\u2019re getting a little bit off-piste on some of that, and some repetition as well in regards to some of these questions, but I will be free and frank, again, in terms of the position around what I\u2019ve said. The requirement on that report is by 31 December, and I acknowledge that all Government departments and all public sector workers are under significant pressure, and at this stage, that is the time at which they would deliver the report, and I have not received the report. The reality of what we are doing in terms of the repeal is going to be the fact that that reporting is no longer required, and that is as simple as that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EIn regards to the principles point\u2014and I was in the Finance and Expenditure Committee along with the member as we worked through this bill\u2014the reality is that there isn\u2019t consistent agreement by parties around the principles in the tax principles, and that is the reality of where we\u2019re at. The challenge that we have identified is that we believe that the requirements under this Act to report and require IRD in a legislative manner to report on that is not something that we deem as a priority or necessary. That\u2019s why we\u2019re repealing the Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022692d8468772b4d08be1827099c7ab701\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022692d8468772b4d08be1827099c7ab701\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon James Shaw, but I\u2019m just looking for very new information and very new questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u0022dee1791322194749a70eff1f43a6cfd3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dee1791322194749a70eff1f43a6cfd3\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E Well, thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m specifically asking the Minister to expand on a point he was just saying. He\u2019s now said that the Government disagrees with at least one or more of the principles in the existing Act. And so my question then is: why not amend the Act to reflect the principles that they prefer to base the tax system on rather than repeal the Act and have no information available? So that is my first question, because my understanding, Madam Chair, is that that is new information to the committee, because previously in the debate, the kind of general understanding has been that, actually, no one on the Government side had stated a disagreement with the principles, but the Minister has now stated a disagreement with the principles that are in the Act, so my question then is: why, which ones, and why would the Government simply not amend the Act rather than repeal it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EI have another question, which is to come back to the reasons for the repeal. At question time today and in previous stages of the debate, I\u2019ve heard a number of different reasons, and I think it would be helpful if the Minister would give us the actual reason or the official reason. So in an earlier stage of the debate, the Hon David Seymour said that the purpose of the repeal was to cut costs at IRD and then return that money to New Zealanders in the form of tax cuts, which is where my question then is: if that was true, of the 2.5 fulltime-equivalents (FTEs) that are resourced for this, if we were to divide that by the five million New Zealanders, how much money would each New Zealander receive from the 2.5 FTEs whose salaries would be returned to New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EThe Hon Nicola Willis at question time today said, \u201CNo, that wasn\u2019t the reason for the repeal\u201D\u2014that Mr Seymour\u2019s reason was not the reason. Her reason was that the Government didn\u2019t want reports. And I wanted to check for consistency with the coalition agreement that the decisions of Government would be based on facts and evidence and how repealing an Act that provides facts and evidence is consistent with ensuring that decisions are built around facts and evidence. How are we going to make decisions around the shape of the tax system if we don\u2019t understand it and we don\u2019t have any data or evidence about it? So I would like an answer around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EMy third question is around openness and transparency. So my question is: will New Zealanders have more or less information about the tax system as a result of the repeal of this Act, and how is that consistent with the commitment to openness and transparency in Government? Because the Government, to my knowledge, are still signatories to the Open Government Partnership, and this suggests that the Government is acting inconsistently with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ESo those are questions that I think are new or have not been addressed by the Government during the debate so far, Madam Chair, that I would be quite keen to get some insight on from the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EMy fourth question during an earlier stage of the debate was that one of the speakers, Andy Foster from the New Zealand First Party, said that the purpose of repealing the Act was to build trust and confidence in the public. And I\u2019d like to hear from the Minister how having less transparency around the tax system builds trust and confidence, if that\u2019s an official line of the Government, or if it was just a view of one of the MPs of one of the parties. So it would be useful to understand how having less transparency leads to more trust and confidence in our public institutions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EGiven that the Government has got a commitment to focusing relentlessly on living costs, I\u2019d like to understand how the repeal of this Act helps to cut living costs for New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022bfa6191277134478a53630e74caeaf92\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bfa6191277134478a53630e74caeaf92\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, the Hon James Shaw, for those questions. I\u2019ll work my way through them as they were asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe first aspect in regards to the decision around principles and whether those that submitted to the select committee were unilateral in their support and agreement for the way in which those principles were defined was not the case. There was divergence in terms of the views of those principles, and there was divergence across tax experts and members of the public in regards to that. And that is what was conveyed, and that is the reality. Any time spent on preparing these reports that would be undertaken if the Act wasn\u2019t repealed, in our view, is a waste of time and money. Any resources within our Public Service should be focused on higher priorities aligned with Government priorities, and hence the basis of why this bill, which is only 60 words in its entirety, taking out the headings, is quite straightforward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe last aspect in regards to the member\u2019s questions around openness and transparency\u2014as I\u2019ve outlined on probably three occasions now and I\u2019m now repeating, the Inland Revenue does, in what I think is a good way, produce a lot of reporting already on a wide variety of its operational and policy activities. The annual report is a summarisation of that information and is comprehensive. There are mechanisms to request and ask for more feedback and different views of that perspective, and I, again, would reinforce and encourage you to provide that feedback. From my point of view, I am very confident that the Inland Revenue Department, being one of the most highly performing departments that I\u2019ve had the experience of dealing with, does uphold the important principles of being open and transparent in terms of its policy and its operational effects.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022 data-id=\u002230743e574dcf46f1baeb0b5211581a93\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002230743e574dcf46f1baeb0b5211581a93\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002221d389402b254474bd94d6573510cc59\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00226b6dc3158e6e4568b687c25362f28b29\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226b6dc3158e6e4568b687c25362f28b29\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Dr Deborah Russell\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 1 is out of order as not being an objective description of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EThe Hon Grant Robertson\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 1 is out of order as not being an objective description of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EThe Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 1 is out of order as not being an objective description of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EThe question is that the Hon Barbara Edmonds\u2019 tabled amendment amending the commencement date to 1 January 2024 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224250b4121bf64bf5afa08f5b8c86904f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022955fc4cbd4204d8d85a94b614071f000\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022955fc4cbd4204d8d85a94b614071f000\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Deborah Russell\u2019s tabled amendment amending the commencement date to 1 January 2027 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228395482bd9844e5eb98c016d6b2e4d16\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022dd3bc35b0c424174a383382cc04f0656\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dd3bc35b0c424174a383382cc04f0656\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 remaining tabled amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224701fdc34c414a8cbdb02ec359b8920b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00222bdd30b7f1ec49ca868805652a3ddefc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222bdd30b7f1ec49ca868805652a3ddefc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Part 2 and clauses 1 and 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002259a88c23f6124b628e8eb4f1e9a68309\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 and clauses 1 and 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 and clauses 1 and 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000675\u0022\u003EBill to be reported without amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000676\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022109cbcc5949f406cb5035df0ec938a4b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022109cbcc5949f406cb5035df0ec938a4b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The committee has considered the Taxation Principles Reporting Act Repeal Bill and reports it without amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00226439e47df5ad46e2bb66f1870c7b1478\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226439e47df5ad46e2bb66f1870c7b1478\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The bill is set down for third reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002241b2a1886e744afe8a8b39447e352954\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00220023ef98f64d44b2894d48fba474ea5c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220023ef98f64d44b2894d48fba474ea5c\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Taxation Principles Reporting Act Repeal Bill be now read a third time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EMadam Speaker, honourable members, I thank you for your time in considering this bill under urgency. As we\u2019re under urgency, I will provide a very brief recap of the bill that we are considering today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EThe Taxation Principles Reporting Act Repeal Bill does what the name implies. It has a simple purpose, and once that purpose has been fulfilled, it writes itself out of the history books by repealing itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EBut as humble and self-fulfilling as it is, it is a very useful bill with some noble objectives. It frees future Governments from the restrictive descriptors of tax principles set out in the Act, and it allows them to describe for themselves what they see as good tax system. It allows them to pursue the tax policies they were elected to carry out. It is saving taxpayers money and compliance costs by stopping them from having to provide unnecessary information to Inland Revenue, and it will stop Inland Revenue from having to devote precious resources to preparing reports on the tax system in relation to certain tax principles. Those resources could and should be better used, including actually collecting tax. This, then, is a very worthwhile bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003EI would like to thank the tax policy officials and legislative drafter for all their work in preparing this bill so quickly. I commend the Taxation Principles Reporting Act Repeal Bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002211491464125641c295817a61d308404b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002211491464125641c295817a61d308404b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u002223b994995bd646ffa0ba4a4da99d38a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002223b994995bd646ffa0ba4a4da99d38a3\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. This week, under urgency, we have had fair pay agreements taken away. We have had 90-day trials put back in place. We have had the Clean Car Discount taken away. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThe Government has not proposed any new or original policies. It has not come with anything positive to this House. Instead, it has taken away, removed, repealed, destroyed. That\u2019s their agenda\u2014that\u2019s their agenda. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234ba8065f7574a5493d36ac13b9bcc32\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s all they\u2019ve got.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6626bf656a444db97cf965437e458aa\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s all they\u2019ve got. And now they\u2019ve done it on this bill. This bill takes away the Taxation Principles Reporting Act, an Act which would simply have given us more information about our tax system so that as citizens we can make good judgments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EYou know, the previous speaker, the Minister, Simon Watts, said that the descriptors were \u201Crestrictive\u201D, that Governments should be allowed to \u201Cset principles for themselves\u201D\u2014that\u2019s an astonishing thing to say\u2014and that it would \u201Cfree\u201D Governments to set their own tax policies. Let\u2019s work through that. Governments are still\u2014always have been\u2014free to set their own tax policies. What this bill would have done would have enabled some judgments to be made about those tax policies using descriptors that are long established and widely agreed as the appropriate descriptors and the appropriate principles to use for assessing a tax system. But this Government is too scared to allow that to happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EIt is a real shame that this bill is going through. I\u2019m going to end with a quote from the submissions on the original bill from a submitter who actually said this would be a good policy to pursue. This submitter said\u2014I\u2019m going to reveal the name at the end; this is a surprise for the end of the year\u2014the organisation \u201Chas a keen interest in tax policy, including a comprehensive submission to the 2018-19 Tax Review as well as submissions and feedback to Inland Revenue on more technical consultations\u201D on the area. This submitter \u201Csupports the concept of increased information about the operation of the tax system and reporting of tax information against core taxation principles. We also broadly agree with the list of seven principles listed in Schedule 1 of the Bill.\u201D This submitter agreed with the Taxation Principles Reporting Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThe chair of that submitter is now in this House as an ACT MP. Federated Farmers thought this was good policy, and that Government has rejected it. What a sad note on which to end the year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0daf4b84abd4be285db158c029d68fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0daf4b84abd4be285db158c029d68fa\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Green\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E E te M\u0101ngai, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. I just wanted to continue in the vein of the Hon Dr Deborah Russell and say that it\u2019s gutting that this is where we end the year in the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EMerry Christmas to the workers who have had their opportunity to engage in sector-based bargaining stripped away from them, again under urgency, oftentimes in the dead of night, without the opportunity for meaningful consultation or engagement at select committee. Merry Christmas to the workers who will now be going into their new jobs with the opportunity to be fired at will under the first 90 days. Merry Christmas to the climate, which will be, you know, facing more oil and gas poured on the climate crisis. Merry Christmas to the climate with the Clean Car Discount being repealed, one of the most successful climate change policies that Governments have seen in decades, without any commensurate policy put forward to replace it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EMerry Christmas as well to renters who, under this Government, will potentially see their rent skyrocket between 15 to 20 percent, based on estimations from the likes of economist Bernard Hickey, based on this Government\u2019s work programme to remove and roll back interest deductibility rules and otherwise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EIt is abundantly clear that the Government currently bollocking at me has absolutely no vision, because what we have seen over the past two weeks is that they have instead simply fired up the shredder. There is no creativity, no meaningful policy pathway that we have seen to build an Aotearoa New Zealand that is inclusive, that is equitable, and that ultimately provides that pathway for the upholding of people and the planet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo to the bill, which we haven\u2019t had any real meaningful opportunity to talk about, given that the Government actually engaged no external submitters, no external stakeholders, despite accusing the former Government of undertaking no meaningful engagement. And then, obviously, it completely bypassed the select committee process by which we may have had a more meaningful and informed opportunity to shape up this legislation into something that any of us could be proud of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThis bill, as has oftentimes been said throughout all stages, actually doesn\u2019t change our tax system. It doesn\u2019t fix the inequities that have been long baked in, as well elucidated in the high-wealth individuals report from IRD with subsidiary papers from Treasury at the beginning of this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThis is a really important and fundamental point, because it leaves us with the state of the economy as we presently have it. And I\u2019ll bring it back to this graph from Max Rashbrooke [Holds up document], which, obviously, members of the Opposition would prefer I put down in the same way that they\u2019d like to bin the report which officials have largely worked on. Just for those following along at home, this is really, really important to outline here. This is based on substantive survey data\u2014the distribution of wealth that New Zealanders believe would be ideal. It looks equitable. It looks as though everybody has the opportunity to start at the same point in the starting line. The second bar is what New Zealanders think that the distribution of wealth in Aotearoa New Zealand is. And you can see a substantive divergence there. New Zealanders actually do assume that right now we do have an unfair and inequitable distribution of wealth that is far from what they think that it is, or rather what they believe it is, ideal to be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EBut then we get to the third point of the graph around what it actually is, and it\u2019s there you can see where the disproportionate wealth and power in Aotearoa New Zealand is held. And that is the core point that we are debating today, because that wealth aggregation doesn\u2019t occur in a vacuum; it occurs \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003Eas a result of a tax system which many New Zealanders, per that graph, assume is unfair\u2014and as the high-wealth individuals report from the Inland Revenue Department told us was unfair. Because we see that the top 311 families in this country pay an effective tax rate less than half of that of the average New Zealander.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022201024db1846409ba88d8f6ffd11ce73\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: They worked hard, and they succeeded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225eb988030b2b487f8312d3d41a1b1395\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK\u003C/span\u003E: I dare members of the ACT Party who are presently heckling about how those 311 families worked hard to tell us that the bottom 2.5 million New Zealanders who hold less wealth than those 311 families combined\u2014I dare you to tell those New Zealanders that they did not work hard. Because, in fact, what we see is that our tax system, as again borne out in those subsidiary papers from Treasury on that IRD report\u2014those New Zealanders do work hard, but we have a tax system that disproportionately taxes work over wealth, and that puts us as an outlier in the OECD. We are one of the only countries that we compare ourselves to that does not have a capital gains tax, a stamp duty tax, a wealth tax, or any form of taxation that is meaningfully targeted to address those inequities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThe other point on this bill is that this report is already done, and this was largely canvassed throughout other parts and debates in this bill. Because we know that under the law as it currently sits on our statute book\u2014as it currently sits, actually, until we get to the point of this bill being passed under urgency in the next hour or so\u2014IRD are required to publish a report on 31 December. And as I\u2019ve said during the first reading and the second reading and committee of the whole House\u2014and it bears out putting on the Hansard once again\u2014that is 10 days from now. In those 10 days we have two public holidays in the form of Christmas and Boxing Day. We also have two weekend days. That takes away four days. That gives us ostensibly six working days. But we know that IRD officials, as with most public servants and white collar workers across this country, are probably on holiday from tomorrow. And the inevitable logical conclusion that that brings us to is that this report is done. And that then begs the question of why the Government is keen to bin it. Because we\u2019ve been told that the reason that we are rushing this through under urgency today and through midnight last night is because they need to get it done before 31 December, when that bill is due to be published.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EMy question to members of the Government is: what are you so scared of? Because we heard from the Minister during committee of the whole House, and, actually, as reflected in the regulatory impact statement from his officials, that there is an intention to actually increase the level of reporting within IRD on the efficacy of our tax system. So there is still an intention to do some form of ambiguous reporting, and we\u2019re not quite sure what it is going to look like, yet we\u2019re repealing this principles-based legislation based on, again\u2014and I take here from our independent adviser on the bill who said, and I quote, and this is from Sir Rob McLeod, not somebody who I don\u2019t think anybody in this House could allege of being ideologically driven,\u201CI would omit the descriptors because the meaning of each design principle is sufficiently well understood on their own.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019re left with a situation with a report which is due to come out in 10 days, under the law as it currently sits on our books, and a Minister who says that we\u2019re doing this in order to reduce waste of resources, but those resources are already spent. Again, it bears worth putting on the record that those resources are 2.5 fulltime-equivalent (FTE)\u2014i.e., 0.06 percent of all of the FTE that operate within the Inland Revenue Department\u2014and a Minister that is saying that he intends to continue doing some form of reporting, which we have no meaningful clarity over.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo we should have and we could have had a process, if the Government had decided to let this report come out\u2014as it, again, still to this point, is due to in the next 10 days\u2014where they could have said, \u201CHey, look, New Zealand, here\u2019s the issues that we have with the format of this reporting as it has been put out.\u201D But we\u2019re not going to be able to have that meaningful debate, because in the dark of the night this Government has decided to shred that legislation, pushing through midnight and urgency last night.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EAnd it really bears pointing out again that this is a Government who has utilised rhetoric such as the importance of data and evidence but is deciding to shred a framework which would have enabled us to have precisely that. We don\u2019t live in a game of Monopoly; we live in a democracy where, when we are informed by evidence and data, we have the opportunity to make informed decisions about the economy that we want to live in. Because the question for the Government and for the Opposition, and indeed for our Parliament, should be: what kind of economy do we want to build? Because it isn\u2019t handed down to us on concrete tablets from a deity in the sky; it is a man-made concept with structures, rules, and regulations that we put in place to try and achieve outcomes that we put down on paper in these laws.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EAnd I have just got to say, having heard the inconsistencies logically in the Speech from the Throne a few weeks ago, where this Government was talking about the wants to have more affordable housing while doing policies and putting forward policy prescriptions that they know demonstrably will do the opposite of that; saying that they want to have a higher-wage economy while doing the opposite of what Australia does with a fairer tax system, a capital gains tax, and sector-based bargaining which they repealed under urgency, this Government really has us all questioning what their priorities are and who they serve. We oppose this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212a12158429c4ab2a037815391968401\u0022\u003EMark Cameron\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, well I don\u2019t know how I compete with the theatricality\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268ab0397b6614513bd01219d88ca0a05\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I haven\u2019t called the member\u2014just a little bit of order would be good. I call Mark Cameron.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022 data-id=\u002203255d91790c4e4fb74fa35e3ac33cfb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002203255d91790c4e4fb74fa35e3ac33cfb\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Well, you\u2019ve taken my momentum away about all the oxygen and theatricality of the former member\u2019s speech. I just want to congratulate her on all of her efforts, and highlight the fact that fallacies don\u2019t cease to be fallacies just because they\u2019re the fashions of the left\u2014the green and the red team that we\u2019ve had now six years of. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003EI commend the bill to the House. I think it\u2019s a good piece of legislation and I want to congratulate the former Minister, or the said Minister, for all his endeavours. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022 data-id=\u0022f14da6881d7945ca991431cdb6c67842\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f14da6881d7945ca991431cdb6c67842\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E There\u2019s been a lot of hyperbole and tilting at windmills here, but one of the things about select committee, of course, is that the legislation which is being repealed has effectively just been through select committee earlier this year. So there have been submissions on it. Those submitters have had different views, and, obviously, there was a minority opinion from what is now the Government side, saying we don\u2019t like that piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EIRD are quite clear that they started off saying that they thought the legislation makes sense, and then they\u2019ve come to the view that maybe it doesn\u2019t make sense and they can actually do it a different way. If you look at the regulatory impact statement, that is exactly what they say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EI just want to finish off by saying that the issue of trust members raised\u2014and I think James Shaw misquoted what I was trying to say. The key point here is that what people really want to trust is how we spend their money and how much Government reaches into their pockets to take their hard-earned money and spend it on something the Government thinks is a good idea. That really is the key issue. It\u2019s not so much about understanding the tax system; it\u2019s understanding how we spent their money and knowing that we spent their money well. I guess that is the challenge. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u0022929e004905fb4b8bad23ce07af9bd873\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022929e004905fb4b8bad23ce07af9bd873\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E Why, thank you, Mr Speaker. Can I just start this intervention by saying one of the few things that I do like about urgency debates is that you actually sometimes do get a debate rather than just people coming into the House and making statements then buggering off again. So I will, in that spirit, pick up the point that Andy Foster just raised, which is that he said that people want to have trust and confidence in how we spend their money. In a previous part of this debate, I agreed with him on that point. But they also want to have trust and confidence that the tax system is fair and transparent, that when we say we\u2019re spending their money\u2014whose money? Where is it coming from, and how much proportionately are people paying?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EActually, what we have seen is an erosion in recent decades of trust and confidence in our Governments and in this Parliament, because we have consistently passed laws that have increased wealth disparity in this country and created a multi-generational underclass and a multi-generational class of people whose wealth is inherited rather than earned. What we do know\u2014the very few things that we do know about the tax system in New Zealand\u2014is that it currently reinforces that. So the Act that is being repealed simply provides some transparency and builds trust and confidence, because it means we\u2019re all operating off the same set of information about the nature of the tax system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EI wanted to respond to some of the back and forth with the Minister in the committee of the whole House stage immediately preceding. One of the things that the Minister said was that if New Zealanders want this information, they can get it through the Inland Revenue system of annual reporting. One of the other things that he said is that the purpose of the repeal is to focus Inland Revenue\u2019s resources on the things that this Government prioritises. But if New Zealanders want to intervene in the annual reporting process and get the information that was provided by the Act, then the same amount of resource\u2014in fact, probably more\u2014will have to be deployed responding to the requests of New Zealanders who want that information. So it will save no resource, other than making it harder for New Zealanders to access the information that the Act provides for, right? It\u2019s an inconsistent argument. It doesn\u2019t reduce the amount of resource that Inland Revenue will have to devote, but it does make it less transparent and less accessible for New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EAgain, the arguments that the Government side have laid out during the course for why the Act is being repealed are spurious. They\u2019re so thin. They\u2019re wafer thin. And the next question that I\u2019ve got is: why the urgency? Why is it such a rush? Why is it so important, so desperately important, that we repeal an Act that provides transparency about the tax system at this point? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s because they don\u2019t want to know. They do not want to know what the reports provide. The Minister himself said that regardless of the amount of work that Inland Revenue have already put into the first report this year, he doesn\u2019t want to see it. He\u2019s not received it. He\u2019s not asking for it. Any work that they\u2019re currently doing will have to get binned. Even though the report is due, effectively, tomorrow in real terms, he doesn\u2019t want to know what\u2019s in that. He doesn\u2019t want New Zealanders to know what\u2019s in that, because they already have a pretty good sense that it\u2019ll just show the same thing that we\u2019ve already discovered through other work that Inland Revenue have done, which shows that we have a deeply unfair and unproductive tax system in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s why they want to repeal the Act, that\u2019s why they want to repeal it under urgency, that\u2019s why they want less transparency in the tax system\u2014because the interests that that Government serves do not want New Zealanders to know where the money comes from that pays for the public services that the Government provides. They don\u2019t want to know and they don\u2019t want New Zealanders to know, because all it would do would be to inform us that we have a system where the wealthiest New Zealanders pay less as a proportion in their tax base than other New Zealanders. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EAll of these people on the other side are sitting there going, \u201CNo, it\u2019s all to do with hard work. It\u2019s merely a function of hard work.\u201D Well, let me tell you something. The wealthiest New Zealanders pay less proportionate tax than the people who clean the offices of the members present. You try and tell those people who come in here in the dead of night to vacuum their floors and clean their desks and empty their rubbish bins that they don\u2019t work hard and that those people should continue to pay more tax as a proportion of their wealth and income than the wealthiest New Zealanders. That\u2019s what they\u2019re saying. That\u2019s what they\u2019re hiding in repealing this Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EThe interests that they are serving are the people who made the largest donations at the last election, which were the millions of dollars that went from the richest New Zealanders to the parties that formed the Government\u2014millions and millions of dollars in donations from the wealthiest New Zealanders\u2014on the basis that those tax affairs would be covered up again and we would continue to operate in the same darkness that we have for a very long time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ESo you really have to wonder, when the parties of Government got up to say during the course of the election campaign that they would be relentlessly focused on reducing the costs of living to New Zealanders, how much does the repeal of this Act reduce the living costs of New Zealanders, given that there are 2\u00BD fulltime-equivalent resources devoted to it? If you divide those 2\u00BD people by the 5 million New Zealanders, how much will our living costs go down by repealing this? It is completely inconsistent to say that average New Zealanders will see their cost of living go down by having a less transparent tax system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EThey\u2019ve said that they don\u2019t want glossy reports. They don\u2019t want that kind of thing. But at the same time, they\u2019ve said that they\u2019re going to be a Government that\u2019s based on facts and evidence\u2014but only facts and evidence that are convenient to them and the people that support them. They\u2019re not interested in facts and evidence that are inconvenient to their political agenda. It is as ideological a Government as one I have ever seen. It is not based on facts and evidence at all. It is based entirely on serving the interests of the people who put them into power.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ESo when you come to the question of trust and confidence, there is no reason why New Zealanders should have trust and confidence in this Government, when one of its very first acts\u2014other than making bus fares more expensive for our poorest New Zealanders; other than making it more expensive to decarbonise as a country; other than to make it more fragile for people to walk into employment, on the basis that they could get fired for no reason within the first three months of that employment, on the basis that they\u2019d make it harder to actually bargain for better wages, so that\u2019ll drive wages down, as it always has demonstrably over the course of the last three decades.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EI can see the Minister asking me to move on and to speed up, because he wants to go home for Christmas. He wants to get out of here and he wants to go home. But it is his responsibility that this bill is in the House and it is his first act as a Minister of Revenue that we are debating this, and all he wants for Christmas is a little less transparency. All he wants for Christmas is to repeal an Act that made it obvious what the state of our tax system is in this country, and then he wants to get out of here and go home and have it all be done by Christmas so that people forget about it and don\u2019t worry our pretty little heads about the fact that the status quo is being preserved and the poorest New Zealanders will get poorer and the wealthiest will get wealthy under this Government. Because that is exactly the agenda that they have outlined in the first three sitting weeks of this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ENew Zealanders can look forward to a lot more than that. They\u2019re putting it through under urgency because they want to get it out of the way. They want to do the stuff that\u2019s unpopular, they want to clear the decks, and then they want people to forget about it. Well, we won\u2019t forget about it. We will continue to hold them to account for their inequitable and unjust policies for the entire time that they remain in Government. The signals that they have sent to New Zealanders about what their priorities are and whose interests that they are serving over the course of the last three weeks, and in particular over the last set of bills that we have debated in the course of this week\u2014it is a cruel Government. It is a Grinch-like Government right before Christmas for the vast majority of New Zealanders, except for those people who backed them in the election campaign.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u0022232950c8f2d641e18a3b29d31076fdc2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022232950c8f2d641e18a3b29d31076fdc2\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. There must have been some really bad lobster over in Doha. This is a great bill and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022c443651694c54b9abfeb873e539d57a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c443651694c54b9abfeb873e539d57a6\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll just take a short call in this third reading, to say that there\u2019s nothing that quite sums up this Government but to be finishing with a petty, backward-looking piece of legislation that does the opposite of what it purports to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESo throughout the quite long debate that we\u2019ve had on this bill, what we\u2019ve been able to establish is that the Minister of Revenue thinks that there should be some principles, doesn\u2019t quite know what they are, thinks that they\u2019re in the annual report\u2014which they\u2019re not\u2014and opposes a bill that actually outlines some principles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWe believe that a tax system should be fair. We believe that a tax system should be progressive. We believe that a tax system should be open and transparent. And that\u2019s what the National Government is finishing their time with, in this year\u2014is to take away transparency. We will see more of that, I\u2019m sure. I oppose this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022 data-id=\u00224cf435e40ada491c97b64675e2014a11\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224cf435e40ada491c97b64675e2014a11\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019d like to commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u002243accec001a94956ab18ca0ac7b05910\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243accec001a94956ab18ca0ac7b05910\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. What I\u2019ve watched over the last day is what I would describe as wilful blindness. What we are going to have is the non-information of people in an area where we desperately need information. But also, we have a responsibility to the New Zealand public to make sure that if we\u2019re taking their hard-earned money, we know that we are doing so fairly. That is what the Government is turning its back on today. What a sad day it is, and what a lot of work we\u2019re going to have as Opposition, and what a lot of fun we\u2019re going to have pointing out what a lacklustre Government we have, one that does not give us vision, does not give us hope. We\u2019ll see you here in the new year. Happy New Year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022a50828f8e56148ca8072bc9986e24008\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a50828f8e56148ca8072bc9986e24008\u0022\u003ENANCY LU (National):\u003C/span\u003E This is an excellent bill and I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u0022fba481035cf743e992cf2954c9621483\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fba481035cf743e992cf2954c9621483\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E In the spirit of Christmas, A Christmas Carol comes to mind today, and when I think of Ebenezer Scrooge, I\u2019m not going to cast aspersions on the misers on the other side of the House. When I think of Ebenezer Scrooge, he saw the light, and the ghost of Christmas Past, which is that this Government brought in the principles to make the tax system fairer. But the Christmas present that that Government is giving is, basically, removing the transparency that the New Zealand public can depend on to ensure that the incidence of tax is fair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003ETherefore, I do not commend this bill to the House. But I do want to wish you, Mr Speaker, manuia le Kerisimasi ma le tausaga fou. That\u2019s the end of this speech. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227e5a8a5843d84524914b7cc7d66d8acb\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Taxation Principles Reporting Act Repeal Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 49\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000741\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226d13e7f371ef4adfab096c5b11f6b460\u0022\u003EAdjournment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228faf5318bfa74506a51386007c801e3a\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229ae3009631f9492c9230c5e04b575625\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00220a91908249f240cf9e7f7e0bf640c30e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a91908249f240cf9e7f7e0bf640c30e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: In accordance with a determination of the Business Committee, the motion for the adjournment and for the sitting programme of 2024 may be moved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022c1e436fa19c44f0f995829cba6c55294\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c1e436fa19c44f0f995829cba6c55294\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Senior Whip\u2014National)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Prime Minister: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Merry Christmas. I move, That the sitting programme for 2024 be:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EJanuary 30 and 31;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EFebruary 1, 13, 14, 15, 20, 21, 22, 27, 28, and 29;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EMarch 5, 6, 7, 19, 20, 21, 26, 27, and 28;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EApril 9, 10, 11, and 30;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EMay 1, 2, 7, 8, 9, 21, 22, 23, 28, 29, and 30;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EJune 25, 26, and 27;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EJuly 23, 24, 25, 30, and 31;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EAugust 1, 6, 7, 8, 20, 21, 22, 27, 28, and 29;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESeptember 10, 11, 12, 17, 18, 19, 24, 25, and 26;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EOctober 15, 16, 17, 22, 23, and 24;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ENovember 5, 6, 7, 12, 13, 14, 19, 20, and 21;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EDecember 10, 11, 12, 17, 18, and 19;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003Eand that the scrutiny weeks for 2024 under Standing Order 338C be:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EJune 17, 18, 19, 20, and 21;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EDecember 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003Eand that the House do now adjourn until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 30 January 2024.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EMr Speaker, as the most senior MP named Chris on this side of the House who was available to take this call, I do so on behalf of National. First, I want to wish you and all a very merry Christmas. I congratulate you again on your new role. Clearly, you\u2019re a man of experience, and it shows in a way that is very helpful. It\u2019s not your first ro-day-o, or indeed your first rodeo\u2014which reminds me, sir, to acknowledge and thank our coalition partners of New Zealand First and, of course, the ACT Party. Some returning colleagues and friends, and some new ones alike\u2014we are enjoying the opportunity to walk together in a way that reflects the election result for the good of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESir, you haven\u2019t yet thrown anyone out of the House. If you choose to do that to me today, I\u2019ll be able to get home a bit earlier and avoid some of that Wellington traffic that we\u2019re going to hope to get Wellington moving again\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222946ae1a473e40b095748c5af598e3f8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You can go voluntarily.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0498c6d94bc43bf878bdcd2f6490b7f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: OK. I\u2019ll move on, and if I finish before the 10 minutes, that will be the reason; not because I haven\u2019t prepared sufficiently well for this, sir. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI do want to say, as we\u2019re concluding the whole of the parliamentary year, that your predecessor Adrian Rurawhe is to be acknowledged for his good humour and judgment. Our right honourable friend earned the respect of the House throughout the period in which he held that role, and, again, we thank him for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EWe acknowledge your presiding officer colleagues. Barbara Kuriger, Maureen Pugh, Greg O\u2019Connor, and Teanau Tuiono\u2014thank you very much. Please consider this to be the last closure motion that we will see, at least for now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re well served in this place, sir, as indeed you are personally, by the Clerk of the House and the Office of the Clerk team. We are grateful for the important functions that they fulfil in this place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re supported too by the grounds and buildings staff in this place. To colleagues who are finding out for the first time the difficulty of putting rectangular furniture into a round building\u2014a good problem to have. I hope that they don\u2019t find that too much of a metaphorical experience\u2014square pegs and round holes, and all that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI also wish to thank Bellamy\u2019s and other catering staff in this place. They do their job sometimes too well. Parliament runs on the will of the people, democratic institutions\u2019 strength, and, of course, coffee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI want to thank as well, on our behalf, the security teams who are approachable, but not too approachable, as is appropriate for their role, including wearing the new black; the messengers; the Parliamentary Library team; and, of course, IST\u2014I\u2019d like to thank them for their service to me, and I hope they\u2019ve got my telegram of thanks; the VIP team and all the other drivers who get us to and from Parliament\u2014I\u2019d especially like to thank those who get us from Parliament; the travel office, likewise; so too the cleaners; the pay office; and also the education services in this place. They play a vital role in assisting our democracy flourish in a way that New Zealanders can understand what\u2019s going on here. I think it\u2019s appropriate this place has some mystique, but not complete mystery. And, of course, I thank all those others who help fulfil the role of the House of Representatives playing its part in our functional democracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI also want to thank, on that note, the press gallery. We acknowledge that the fourth estate has an important role in our vibrant democracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIn terms of the year, I\u2019d be remiss if I didn\u2019t acknowledge the events of earlier this year with Cyclone Gabrielle and other severe emergency weather events, both before that in terms of Auckland anniversary floods, and since that time too, all across New Zealand. I want to thank the first responders and all who worked hard to improve that situation in terms of response, recovery, and so forth. I also want to than our New Zealand Defence Force personnel who are serving overseas this Christmas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ENew Zealanders voted for change this year, and change they will get. Change is not our right, but our responsibility to deliver. We have that mandate and indeed we have that responsibility. Six years ago, a new Labour Government came in and they had finally caught that passing car at which they had been barking at for nine long years. They made a mistake, I think, in not seeing that they had any mandate for change and working to effect that. But for us, we will be working over working groups, and we will favour mahi over mihi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EOur 100-day plan is being rolled out. We\u2019ve seen it over the last three weeks. We will see it more indeed in the year to come. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EOur coalition Government is purposeful, and, again, I acknowledge our coalition partners. We will manage the economy well so New Zealanders get ahead. We will restore law and order. We will deliver public services in health, education, and every other way that New Zealanders rely on the Government\u2014including they rely on the Government not interfering with their lives beyond a reasonable measure of necessity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EFrom a National Party perspective, I thank all our team, including the chief of staff, Cameron Burrows, who the Prime Minister has generously acknowledged that he deserves a long holiday. He\u2019s less generously stated that, I think, he\u2019s going to get a short one, but that\u2019s appropriate, of course. We\u2019re going to be back in the new year, hitting the ground running, of course. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EOther leaders from the National team, from the leader\u2019s office, the Prime Minister\u2019s Office, our team of whips\u2014I\u2019d like to personally thank especially the Hon Scott Simpson for relieving me of that role in more than one sense of the phrase, along with Suze Redmayne, our House team, and all the MPs\u2019 support teams, including in our electorate and community offices, who are no less than anyone else a part of the work that is done in this place for the people of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge not only our leader, the Prime Minister, but also Nicola Willis in terms of her role as deputy and that finance gig; the Leader of the House, Chris Bishop; and to all my National Party caucus colleagues, congratulations for being here. Thank you for your hard work already, and we look forward to proceeding with such exciting times in the new year. We\u2019ll see many more constructive bills and work programmes of the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EOn that note, I also wish to thank every member of the Parliament\u2014all the very best for the new year. It has been a frenetic resumption of play in terms of the Parliament. The maiden speeches across the House have been a particular highlight. They reflect some very good decisions of the people of New Zealand voting in the general election, particularly those who voted for parties on this side of the House, of course. But in the genuine spirit of acknowledging and thanking those who have stepped up to the plate in public service and have been successful, who are now in this place, but also those who put themselves forward for public office, took that risk, put themselves and their families through that, we thank them too for their commitment and their service to democracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EOn that note: to all, a very merry Christmas. May you have a blue Christmas, and to those, particularly, who got the Elvis Presley reference, I say, thank you, thank you very much. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022a47bc215c34542e1997c66f9bb308804\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a47bc215c34542e1997c66f9bb308804\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the Opposition):\u003C/span\u003E If ever we needed more proof\u2014if these last few weeks haven\u2019t given us plenty of proof\u2014that this Government simply can\u2019t live up to their own expectations, that was it. This was the Government that said that we\u2019re going to be sitting right through to Christmas and we\u2019re going to be back on 15 January, and yet most of the Government seem to have gone home for Christmas already. And, of course, we\u2019re not coming back on 15 January; it appears we\u2019re coming back on 30 January\u2014about what we do every year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ESo in keeping with the summer barbecue tradition, I would say that they are all sizzle and no sausage, but I believe that that particular currency has been somewhat devalued in the last 24 hours, so I\u2019ll stick with an adage that the Deputy Prime Minister will be much more familiar with: they\u2019re all hat and no horse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EBut actually, speaking of the Deputy Prime Minister, there seemed to be a transfer in the Cheshire grin that Christopher Luxon had after election day on the day the special votes came out, from Christopher Luxon to Winston Peters, where it has remained ever since, although, well, except perhaps when he\u2019s dealing with the New Zealand media. Never has a Deputy Prime Minister been so bitter in victory as Winston Peters appears to be following this year\u2019s general election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EBut what we have heard from this Government over the last few weeks is a plan, unambiguously, to take New Zealand backwards\u2014not a plan to lead New Zealand forward to the promised land, but a promise to repeal this, cancel that, stop this, not do that, and cut this. No plan to actually take New Zealand forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThat is something that I hope they will spend a little bit of time as they are lying on their beach towels over the summer holidays thinking about\u2014how they are actually going to lead New Zealand forward, rather than simply dial back to 2017, as if the world was a perfect place in 2017, before the last Government took office.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EBut we\u2019ve also seen from this Government that their priorities are confused and they are wrong. This is a Government that\u2019s decided to prioritise mega-landlords over renters and first-home buyers. It\u2019s a Government that\u2019s decided to prioritise the tobacco lobby over the health and wellbeing of all New Zealanders, a Government that has decided to prioritise oil and gas companies over our environment, to prioritise millionaires instead of salary and wage earners, and a Government that has chosen to accept conspiracy theories instead of policy based on facts, evidence, and science. And we\u2019ve just seen\u2014and we\u2019ve just seen\u2014more evidence of that now, where they repealed legislation that would have done nothing more than produce an evidence base for better policy making in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EBut what we\u2019ve also seen from this Government is that they are adhering to that great children\u2019s game called Simon Says\u2014do as I say, not as I do. They are quite happy to use taxpayer funding for their own te reo M\u0101ori lessons, but when it comes to other New Zealanders, that\u2019s got to stop. They\u2019re happy to claim the Clean Car Discount for themselves, but when it comes to other New Zealanders, that has to stop. They\u2019re quite happy to criticise others who use air force planes to travel internationally, but when it comes to themselves, oh, actually that has to keep going. The list of that could go on. It is a Simon Says Government. Be careful to listen to what they say, because what they do is entirely different. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EWith all of the twists and turns this Government has done in the last few weeks, it has felt like a pilot episode for the New Zealand version of The Office. There is no question who is assuming the role of David Brent on that side of the House, although I have it from the TV company that a second season is highly unlikely. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ENew Zealanders did vote for change at the last election, and we on this side of the House do respect that, but I don\u2019t think that this was the change that they had in mind. I don\u2019t think they voted for more Kiwi kids taking up smoking, for dialling back the work that we had been doing as a Government to cut down on vaping\u2014something that they criticised us for not doing enough of, and now they want to stop the work that we were actually doing. I don\u2019t think that Kiwis voted for the change that they are getting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge that for many New Zealanders, 2023 has been a difficult year, and I want to take a moment, politics aside for a moment, and acknowledge that the first thing that I did as Prime Minister was to travel to Auckland after the flooding on 27 January this year, followed shortly after by travel across the Tair\u0101whiti, Hawke\u2019s Bay, and Wairarapa regions to inspect the cyclone damage in those areas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI can say with sincerity that the pictures on the TV news of the damage done by those natural weather events actually understated the damage; it was actually worse on the ground than the pretty dreadful images that we saw on the TV news. We saw some of the worst of what mother nature can throw at us, but we also saw some of the best of the resilience of the Kiwi human spirit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI met people who were going out of their way to support others in their time of need. I\u2019ve spoken of some examples of that. I\u2019m thinking of the nurse who I met who was seeing patients in a pub, because that was the nearest available building to see people who had health issues caused by the cyclone. When I asked her how she was doing, she burst into tears, because she\u2019d been working for about 36 hours and it was the first moment that she had had to reflect on the fact that she had lost everything\u2014her home, all of her possessions\u2014and had gone straight to work. I think that just highlights how amazing New Zealanders are when they are confronted with some of the most difficult circumstances we can imagine. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ESo on behalf of the previous Government, I do want to acknowledge all those whose lives were turned upside down by those weather events. I also want to say that we dealt with some of the most difficult decisions that we have dealt with during the brief period that I had as Prime Minister as a result of those natural weather events. I want to thank my colleagues, particularly the Hon Grant Robertson, for the leadership that they showed in all of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EOver the summer, I hope that all New Zealanders get a good, long, and uninterrupted summer. It feels like it\u2019s been a wee while since we\u2019ve had one of those, with a global pandemic, with severe weather events, with other things. I think New Zealanders are well and truly due a decent summer. I hope they get to spend plenty of time with their loved ones, plenty of time at the beach, plenty of time over the barbecue, and enjoying the best of what Aotearoa New Zealand has to offer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EAs is tradition, I want to take a moment to thank all of the people who make this place possible to operate: the team at the Parliamentary Service, and our past ministerial staff, who have had a pretty difficult couple of months. One of the things about democracy is it\u2019s actually hardest on many of the people who don\u2019t get a voice in that process. So to our past ministerial staff, a very warm thankyou and a very merry Christmas to all of you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003ETo the Chamber and gallery staff, to the interpreters, the cleaners, the buildings team, the Bellamy\u2019s and Copperfields staff, who I want to thank for keeping a healthy stock of sausage rolls in their cabinets, to all of our security guards who keep us safe, to all of our electorate staff across the House and the many, many volunteers and supporters who also help to make the democratic process function, a very warm thankyou to all of you. Thank you to the parliamentary press gallery for keeping us all honest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228940c574266b4da3852a101314a1238c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: What?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8af17115558408eb9e86f88a5384e5d\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I want to\u2014well, maybe not all of us, Mr Peters, but I do want to thank them. Come rain or shine, they were there during the election campaign, asking us the difficult questions and making sure that New Zealanders had the information that they needed to make informed decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EI want to take a moment to thank the wh\u0101nau, the families, the loved ones of all MPs and Ministers, past and present. Without their love and support, we would not be able to do the jobs that we do, and they make a lot of sacrifices that go unnoticed, and those sacrifices can go on for a long period of time. So I want to really take a moment to thank them. I know that they will be looking forward to having us back over the summer break. By the end of the summer break, I\u2019m sure they\u2019ll be happy for us all to come back to work again, but I do want to take a moment to thank them for all of the love and support they give to everybody.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EAnd of course, to you, Mr Speaker, thank you for the essential role that you play or are starting to play in this Parliament. Can I wish you and your family a very merry Christmas, and to all the staff who work for you, the Office of the Clerk, and the Parliamentary Service, thank you for everything that you do to keep this place operating. And to all members, a very merry Christmas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u002200bffe75c965410fb8458eaaaeda8ca0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002200bffe75c965410fb8458eaaaeda8ca0\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E Firstly, meri Kirihimete to the members opposite. I know that some of them may not have understood what I just said, but I\u2019m sure they understood the spirit with which I intended it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EMr Speaker, I do wish you a very restful summer break, and I actually have not yet had the opportunity to congratulate you on your elevation to the role of Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284f3dbf8382542f58990248e360e5f33\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, take your time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022884e7c5206e14816a1f555965e3c30ae\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019ve got nine minutes and 34 seconds on the clock, so I\u2019ll give it a go. I would like to say that it might not be the job that you most wanted, but it does seem to be the job that you were really born into. So if the last few weeks have shown us anything, it is that you\u2019re going to be a terrific Speaker, and we\u2019re looking forward to working with you over the course of the coming three years as we continue to hold the \u201CCoalition of Chaos\u201D to account. For a group of parties that spent the election campaign trying to terrify New Zealanders what a kind of three-headed demon of a Government might look like, they\u2019re doing a pretty good job of illustrating exactly what it was that they were warning us all about what might happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EI have to say that it\u2019s tempting to focus on the leaked Cabinet papers that started appearing largely before the ink was even dry, or the classic moment when the Hon Shane Jones waited until the Prime Minister and the climate change Minister were out of the country so that he could put nature on notice that he was going to dig it all up and burn it and do whatever the hell else he wanted as long as there was a buck in it\u2014that that was the policy of this Government and, of course, without the right of reply of the actual Prime Minister at the time. I would have thought also, of course, that the Prime Minister\u2014who used to run an airline\u2014would have been in a clearer position about how he was going to fly to Australia, but there we go. The games of Truth or Dare that are currently playing out in the Cabinet room really are something to behold. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EI do want to acknowledge the former Prime Minister, the Rt Hon Chris Hipkins, for his service to the country as Prime Minister over the course of what has been a challenging year. And I do want to acknowledge what a remarkable year it has been\u2014in fact, the last several years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EThree hundred and thirty thousand people trusted the Green Party enough with their votes this year, and I want to thank every single one of them, as well as 8,000 volunteers who were the lifeblood of our campaign. I have not yet had an opportunity to put that on the record since the election\u2014that the support that they have shown us has elected the largest Green caucus ever in our history, and we still carry their hopes for a better Aotearoa into this House every single day. Our constituents, the New Zealanders that we are here to represent, do deserve a Government that puts its best foot forward for the interests of everybody in this country, not just a few, not just those who have inherited their position. And they deserve an Opposition that rises to that with constructive and also honest challenges, and that is the role that we intend to take. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EThe things that we fought the campaign on are as relevant now as they were before the election: warm, dry, affordable homes for everyone in this country\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223647936b75e447478fcb70aff1151951\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: All talk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbd9c72bac604f26a3c391def4de6349\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014rivers that are clean enough to swim in for everybody in this country; wages that are enough for life\u2019s essentials and a decent celebration with friends and wh\u0101nau over the holidays; the hope for a safe climate for their children and for their grandchildren, First Deputy Prime Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EAt the beginning of this year, and the former Prime Minister acknowledged this, Parliament opened when there were two regions in the country that were in a national state of emergency and half the regions in the country were in a regional state of emergency. Cyclone Gabrielle and the Auckland Anniversary Day floods brought the reality of climate change into our homes and into our doorsteps\u2014in fact, over the thresholds of our doorsteps and into the homes of many thousands of New Zealanders. And in response to those crises, communities stepped up\u2014communities stepped up, neighbours helped neighbours, marae opened their doors once again to provide food and shelter for everybody who was affected, and I want to acknowledge that there are still thousands of people in this country who are displaced from their homes as a result of those. It should not take the worst of times to bring out the best in us, and yet in those worst of times the best of us is demonstrated time and time again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EThere were two parties that used the word \u201Cback\u201D or \u201Cbackwards\u201D in the election campaign, and we can certainly see how that\u2019s playing out now that they\u2019re in Government, where the more backwards component is clearly steering the waka on this occasion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ECommunities know that when people have enough to get by, everyone does better. That\u2019s what we know: when everybody has enough to get by, we all do well. The fact that we have created a society over the course of the last few decades which favours a few over the many\u2014that is not a sustainable route for a society to go down, and the Green Party will continue to work towards a better New Zealand for all of us. Aotearoa, we believe, will get better, despite rather than because of this Government. In this House, we will do everything that we can to hold this Government to account day in and day out, even when they want to go home early for Christmas, despite the fact that it was because of their bills that they put on the Order Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f1a82cbc2af4843b0b5a72c821bf1dd\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: Do you want to stay?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd7b5443a7ba45d8aa2c585d9bdb3867\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW\u003C/span\u003E: I live here, buddy. So I\u2019ll tell you what, if you want to moan about the fact that it\u2019s taking a little bit of time for the House to get through your business that you put on the Order Paper and tried to jam through under urgency, then Merry Christmas to you, because that\u2019s your problem to solve, not mine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EWhen they backtrack on policies that are designed to tackle climate pollution, we will speak out. The Green Party of Aotearoa will speak out. When they raid the Climate Emergency Response Fund, whilst squeezing social support for those who need it the most, we will hold them to account. For a Government that campaigned primarily on reducing the cost of living, they haven\u2019t yet done a single thing over the course of this Government that will actually help to reduce the cost of living. If anything, they\u2019ve made things more expensive, more precarious, for the New Zealanders who need that support the most. They have overturned the basic protections for working people. They\u2019ve signalled that next year the cost of public transport is going to go up, child support is going to go up. All of those things that New Zealanders actually depend on are going to become more expensive as a result. I do want to acknowledge that people are feeling anxious, therefore, about the direction. The people who actually wanted to plan to make their wages go further to keep their rents lower instead got a gift-wrapped carton of cigarettes from the Marlborough man.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EAmongst the people\u2014I mean, they have been acknowledged as well, and I do want to add the Green Party\u2019s voice to this. As this year comes to a close, I do want to acknowledge, on our behalf, the people who make this place tick: the library researchers, the security guards, cleaners, the Copperfields team, drivers, the maintenance team, the travel team, IST, messengers, Chamber staff, the House Office, the Office of the Clerk, the finance, payroll, HR\u2014all of those people who make this place tick, and many of whom are in a more precarious position at the end of this year than they were at the beginning of this year. I do want to acknowledge those people. I want to thank them for their service, as we always do, and to acknowledge any anxiety that they may be feeling going into this Christmas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003EI do also want to acknowledge the press gallery and the work that they do to hold all of us to account and to the standards that we ought to observe. From Marama and myself, from our larger-than-ever Green Party caucus, we do wish you all a very restful Christmas. I do want to acknowledge the Green Party team that support us every day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003ETo our colleagues in the House, please do have a good break. We will be working alongside you next year as we try to work on behalf of all New Zealanders here in the green city of P\u014Dneke next year. Merry Christmas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u002283938a73e67c4ff9a32248735a5024f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283938a73e67c4ff9a32248735a5024f9\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. As I listened to the last two speeches from Labour and the Greens, I couldn\u2019t help but have a few thoughts. That speech by James Shaw sounded like a speech by a man who\u2019s resigned already. He\u2019s just forgotten to actually leave. He was phoning it in. The energy, the conviction, it just was not there. And we wish him well; he\u2019s nearly free.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThere was the speech from Chris Hipkins, and it could easily have been given by Grant Robertson. Now, here\u2019s the most dangerous thing that the Opposition, particularly the Labour Party, could do to the Government\u2014the most dangerous thing they could do. You see, they in Government presided over a time when we had record inflation. The economy is having three-quarters of negative growth in one year. That\u2019s their legacy. In terms of social division, they had fires on the lawns of Parliament. They have a crime epidemic that has terrorised people just trying to run a shop. So what\u2019s the most dangerous thing that the Labour Party could do to the Government? They could actually start to admit they made some mistakes and say they\u2019re going to change, but they\u2019re not doing anything like that. They are totally unrepentant. They would have you think that they were somehow a perfect Government that did nothing wrong and, if only they were back, then actually everything would be fine. Now, the problem for Labour is nobody believes that. Nobody. You know, the country under them had people starting off by saying that the country is going in the right direction and finished off saying it\u2019s going in the wrong direction. Until the Labour Party actually start to do some penitence for the enormous damage their policies did to New Zealand, they are no danger. They have a plan to be in Opposition for at least nine years\u2014or, as Winston Peters suggested today, 25.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EI couldn\u2019t help but notice that, listening to their speeches, but I also just say to you, Mr Speaker, congratulations on your election, and thank you to the many staff in Parliament that you effectively lead\u2014those in the Office of the Clerk, the House Office, the cleaners, the travel office, the library. I want to say IST, but we\u2019d particularly like to give a shout-out to someone\u2014I don\u2019t know his full name. He\u2019s known to us only as Super Tom, who, as people who have had help from Tom know, is the most extraordinary, helpful person in an IST department\u2014possibly the only one in the world. We\u2019re very grateful for Super Tom.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EI want to thank the security, looking smart and a lot tougher these days, and I think that makes us all feel good; the caterers; but also those in Government departments. Those that I\u2019ve been responsible for\u2014in education, health, and Treasury, Pharmac\u2014we\u2019re very grateful for the work that they\u2019re already doing to support us, and that goes right across Government, including the official who seems to think that they were in communications with Minister van Velden\u2019s Cabinet paper. We\u2019d like to thank them. We\u2019ve got a lot of good policies if they want to help us get them out there. Well, I tell you what, it hasn\u2019t worked out too well for them now, has it? I also want to thank those staff in the ACT office, ably led by Andrew Ketels. We\u2019re lucky to have extraordinary people who come and work for us and stay. To have a happy and productive workplace is something I\u2019m extremely proud of and grateful for the people there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EAnd that goes also for ACT\u2019s MPs. We\u2019re proud we\u2019ve had a record year. We\u2019re grateful for the quarter million - odd New Zealanders who have trusted ACT with their party vote. Those voters, my neighbours in Epsom, who have returned me to this place for a fourth term\u2014I\u2019m very grateful for that. And our neighbours next door in the T\u0101maki electorate, who now have a brilliant, new, young, and dynamic member of Parliament\u2014we\u2019re very grateful for the trust that they\u2019ve placed in us. But also in the quality of those MPs that have been elected in that record result, we\u2019re very proud to have five new MPs, six returning MPs. We have an extraordinary team, and people who trusted us with their party vote can see that they have had real quality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EI want to also acknowledge our other parties in Government. Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014I was thrilled today to see that Debbie Ngarewa-Packer has opened the Standing Orders and could even quote one. I\u2019ve got to tell her, the one that she was looking for was actually 396, \u201CContent of replies\u201D, but that will require her to turn over another few chapters, because if you\u2019re going to talk about tikanga, it\u2019s about time that Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori respected the tikanga of this particular party as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EI particularly want to acknowledge the Green Party, and I want to acknowledge the significant work that they\u2019ve done on climate change and installing a policy that looks to be ongoing. I think they should be congratulated on that, and we wish them a very merry Christmas. To the Labour Party, we wish you, too, a very merry Christmas. Opposition is important work, and we look forward to our exchanges, including areas where I hope we can build consensus on policies for the long-term future of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003ETo my colleague the Rt Hon Winston Peters and the New Zealand First Party, a very merry Christmas to you. You know what? I never quite believed when they said that politics makes strange bedfellows, until I got into bed with you guys. But none the less, in contrast to what the Opposition would say\u2014they have this kind of binary argument against this Government: one is that we can\u2019t work together, and the other that we\u2019re working so effectively that we\u2019re rapidly doing all these terrible things. And they\u2019re going to have to work out which one it is. Is the Government being ineffective and divided, or is it being too effective? They\u2019re going to have to work out which one it is pretty soon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EI heard James Shaw say that we play some sort of game\u2014I think Simon Says\u2014in the Cabinet room. Unfortunately, imagining what happens in Cabinet is as close as James Shaw will ever get, because I can tell him that we have a very united Government working effectively to deliver. And that goes for my friends and colleagues in the National Party\u2014Chris Luxon, Nicola Willis. Up and down the country, to see new blue MPs joining us in Parliament is a fabulous thing, and we look forward over the coming years to tackling in a deep and substantial way the serious challenges that New Zealand faces. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThis country has more land than most, fewer people than most, and yet a massive shortage of places for people to live. That is a real failure. It\u2019s a failure that can be fixed, and I have great confidence that with Chris Bishop leading in that area, we are going to make enormous progress at making sure that this is a place where, once again, the Kiwi Dream of a property-owning democracy can be a reality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EWe got news this week that in the third term of this year, fewer than half of kids regularly attended school. And that\u2019s just kids that are enrolled. This is the size of the challenge that we face, but I\u2019m confident that along with Erica Stanford, I, as Associate Minister of Education, am going to make a major contribution as part of this Government to finally get kids engaged in learning and have a school system that has the flexibility to deliver and the accountability for delivering it\u2014the opposite of what they\u2019ve had for the last six years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EWe face serious challenges with crime after the previous Government tried the experiment of being nice to criminals to see if they\u2019d be nice back. Unfortunately, too many victims know how that experiment ended, but, luckily, we know that the experiment is over, and this Government will be locking up the bad people and rehabilitating them. Rather than putting the criminal at the centre of the criminal system, we will be putting the victim at the centre of the criminal system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EAnd we are going to ensure that we have a Government that makes careful use of taxpayer money, because the previous Government\u2019s record\u2014a 30 percent increase in expenditure per person after inflation, with worse results in every sector, from safety to health to education. That is a disastrous legacy, and that\u2019s why the Opposition over Christmas need to actually do some repenting and reflecting on what went wrong in New Zealand under their leadership and policies, which they have not changed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EBut this Government has already, in just a few weeks, found how we can save $7.5 billion dollars from the previous Government\u2019s spending plans. James Shaw says, \u201CThey haven\u2019t done anything that will improve the cost of living.\u201D I can tell James Shaw saving money and stopping Government waste takes pressure off inflation. That helps the cost of living. I can tell him. That is exactly how we are going to do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003ESo, Mr Speaker, I finish by wishing you, again, a very merry Christmas. I wish you, my fellow parliamentary colleagues and your families, a very merry Christmas. To all of those who have supported us, volunteered, campaigned, and voted for us, we thank you for your support, and we look forward to 2024, when we will continue to deliver on the real change you ask for. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u00223276a5f4d5984340965482beea31ecf0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223276a5f4d5984340965482beea31ecf0\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, as Parliament draws to a close, New Zealand First wishes to express our thanks to you and your staff. We may not always agree, Mr Speaker, but we\u2019ve enjoyed the calm and the humour you have brought to the House. We must also thank the Rt Hon Adrian Rurawhe for having served in the Speaker\u2019s role for the majority of this year, and for bringing a certain independence and professionalism that could be observed as being widely respected by parliamentarians.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003ETo the cleaners, caterers, security staff, drivers, library, and Hansard staff; to the real workers, as well as to the many office staff from the precinct, we thank you for your exemplary service. This building would not function without you, and I wish you a happy and safe festive season.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EI must also acknowledge all of the first responders and essential services\u2014our policemen and women, firefighters, paramedics, doctors, nurses, corrections officers, and all those other front-line professionals and volunteers trying to keep our country safe and running this year. We all thank you and also have a special message of gratitude to those who cannot go on holiday, cannot have a break, and must run essential services right over Christmas. So pay some thought to them and remember them when you\u2019re having your holiday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003ETo my colleagues in New Zealand First, our caucus has come together quickly and well. So thanks for your support and excellent work to begin the term, alongside all of our parliamentary and ministerial staff and alongside our coalition colleagues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EMind you, we got our Christmas present on 14 October. That was election day. A lot of people couldn\u2019t read the polls, but it was 14 October and we had a team that went out, Cinderella-ised and marginalised, despite everything that they say at the moment. Maybe my eyesight is failing me, but I couldn\u2019t see those people at those meetings we were having, but they tell me they were there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThe reality is that politics is about reporting every angle, every side, and one of the most amazing things about politics\u2014whether it be on the far left or the far right, right around the world\u2014is that numbers and packed halls usually mean something. It means potential market share, but it didn\u2019t happen, and I just want to remind those who were congratulating the media today to have a good look at the details of the journalism interest fund. Have a look at what its terms were and have a look the clause that says if you don\u2019t obey this, pay the money back. It\u2019s all there, clear as daylight, and I hope we never see that again in our country, because the fourth estate is critical to a sound democracy. I hope they go away and reflect on that before they come back next year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EI do thank my party members around the country who worked so hard to bring about the result, and I also want to reciprocate the words that David Seymour has expressed, and I\u2019m sure so would Mr Luxon do if he was here as well. We have put together, I think, a very sound coalition Government that can go forward, and the fact is that if we all agreed with each other, we would not be in our different parties\u2014that\u2019s the essence of it. If we all agreed and had consensus, we wouldn\u2019t be in different parties. We\u2019ve all got something to contribute, and what we\u2019ve got to do is rebuild a country that was, in a very short space of time, rapidly destroyed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EPlease don\u2019t talk about the Labour Government of 2017. I can recall just that before 1 October 2017, a Talbot Mills poll came out, and they were on 20 percent. We\u2019d risen to 19 percent and we thought, \u201CGood heavens! This is bad timing for us. There\u2019s going to be a collapse in the Labour Party.\u201D, and there was. Jacinda Ardern got chosen on 1 August, and 54 days later, she becomes the Prime Minister, because we are not biased. We\u2019re fair: we give people a fair go and give them a break. But the reality is they want to now say that that was them\u2014no, it wasn\u2019t. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThere was a handbrake at the time. Remember light rail? It started off at $1.9 billion, then $8 billion, then $14 billion to $16 billion, and then $29 billion, and some party stopped it, because we didn\u2019t think it was ever feasible in the first place. But here we go, we got programme after programme, but look at their advertising in 2020: everything we did was in their campaign advertising.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000846\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EI\u2019m reminding them about that, because that\u2019s the reason why they\u2019re going to be in the wilderness a long, long time, and I\u2019ll tell you what their problem is now. They haven\u2019t got a leader, and it showed in the lack of lack of intensity and in the repetitiveness of the attack today. With the greatest respect, this is not the Labour Party I once studied, and if they\u2019re going to make a change, the best thing they can do is start remembering who they are meant to represent, for in the end, it\u2019s the numbers that matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000847\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223dc4453b29cf43a3ba2ec05435a956f3\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Who? The tobacco lobbyists, or forestry, and all that sort of stuff? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000848\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab4538ba086e4e0fbdb6e80b604e644f\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, here we go\u2014tobacco. This is the outfit, you see, that were happily changing the tobacco rules so that from 2011 to now, they have taken $24 billion off these users\u2014cigarette smokers and what have you\u2014and of those, one-third are M\u0101ori. So $8 billion has been taken off M\u0101ori. Are you going to the Waitangi Tribunal about that? No. That\u2019s more than all the Waitangi settlements put together, because of their woke signalling to the M\u0101ori people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EEducation will change that. As a famous man called P\u014Dmare, the first M\u0101ori Minister of Health, said all those years ago, education and training changes that, not the imposition of woke taxes\u2014$8 billion has been taken off M\u0101ori. And they\u2019re not too happy now, are they, when they\u2019re outside there, throwing flags around, and saying what they should be doing. We\u2019re want to change M\u0101ori and give M\u0101ori a chance to have freedom and education and information to make the changes themselves. But back to the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000850\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228f868e0-e859-4953-979a-78aa7a3b5e25\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022135a261141f14f89889be28d6cec241a\u0022\u003EDarleen Tana\u003C/span\u003E: Honour Te Tiriti. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000851\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230e07e85903d4182bd1fe964d926279b\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, honour the Treaty\u2014really? Which Treaty are you talking about? Which Treaty are you talking about? Are you talking about the one that you are writing every day because you don\u2019t know anything about the history of this country, or the one that great\u2014[Interruption] Oh, not more than me. No, no, you won\u2019t. Excuse me, I was there a long time before you were, right there\u2014[Interruption] No, right there with Whina Cooper when you weren\u2019t\u2014right there when all these great causes like k\u014Dhanga reo were started, and you weren\u2019t. I can speak to you all day about things that I\u2019ve done, and all we\u2019ve seen from people like you is noise, noise, noise. All talk\u2014all hui and no do-ey. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000852\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re not having that going forward, and I hope that member goes home and thinks at Christmas-time on the fact there were people in the past M\u0101ori world with far more knowledge, far more intelligence, far more integrity, and far more respect than this person shouting out today. Have you ever seen a M\u0101ori on a marae behave like that? Do you ever see a M\u0101ori, male or female, on a marae behaving like that? Uh-uh, no you don\u2019t. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000853\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EHere it comes\u2014this new version of M\u0101ori behaviour. They come in here, not prepared to hear the other side of the story, and let me ask you this one question: what on earth have you ever done for M\u0101ori? Any of you\u2014give me the list. I tell you what, I could put it on the back of stamp with a carpenter\u2019s pencil and there\u2019d be room left over. That\u2019s what you\u2019ve done for M\u0101ori. In our case, we\u2019ve done it and we\u2019ve meant it, and we\u2019re proud of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EBut, as Shane Jones would say, the k\u016Bmara never says\u2014he asked me to do this, so I\u2019m not going on boasting about it. All right? But let me tell you, I know what\u2019s happened here. Out in the M\u0101ori world, using the radicalisation of a few elite\u2014people who know nothing about the M\u0101ori world, really\u2014and in this case, Te Wai Pounamu. Half of the mining in the South Island is on their chest right now. The greenstone is all there, huge, almost pulling their necks down\u2014because if they were real, you wouldn\u2019t need to wear that, would you? All imagery, all show\u2014no action.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003ECan I just say that this time, over Christmas, there are going to be a lot of people around the barbecue highly relieved that there is a change of Government. I feel it; I see it. You can see it in their eyes when you walk down a street. They\u2019re saying they\u2019re so pleased that there was a change of Government. If you learn to read a room and watch people, there\u2019s a new breath of relief and a fresh confidence, and our job is to take that on to rebuilding the country we once were with the principles that we once had but with the policies that understand that it\u2019s sound common sense, sound commercial policies, that put a businessman and woman alongside a businessman\u2019s and woman\u2019s workers and their staff, and they are both of equal value\u2014they are critical. We understand that. We\u2019re not here as a party just arguing one side of the story; we want everybody to realise that our future is best as a country going forward together, in a country that has always been known\u2014and it was known at time of the Treaty of Waitangi\u2014as New Zealand. None of the chiefs\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022480f126c29894294af2765273b941fee\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Listen up\u2014he was there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d42b0fd5eebd40d08609c74fd7fea179\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CListen up\u201D, he says\u2014I was there. No, but my chiefly ancestor was, and he\u2019s a whole lot more brighter than you. He\u2019s a genius compared to you. I respect this ancestor and I respect all those chiefs back then, who knew what they were doing, and not one in the whole breadth of the country ever called the country Aotearoa. Have a happy Christmas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022 data-id=\u00227da8b8c090e24f2096d8808bd5ed7467\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227da8b8c090e24f2096d8808bd5ed7467\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te P\u012Bka. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou e te Whare. H\u0101 ki roto, h\u0101 ki waho, waerea mai. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E[Breathe in, breathe out, clearing.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003ELast night we finished at midnight. I think we must have done about 15, 16 hours and I was feeling a little bit sorry for myself. I got down to the ground floor and I saw our wh\u0101nau, our Pasifika sisters, and they were all getting ready to come in and clean this building. It made me humble myself, remember my place, and remember that every day we walk in and the pixies have done their thing\u2014now, not the same pixies that Shane Jones simply refers to, but the real pixies around here, the real fairies that are here, being real agents of change every day in our daily lives. They are cleaning up after us. They are correcting our spaces and places. They whakanoa\u2014I don\u2019t know how they whakanoa this space, but they do. Every day, we come in and it all looks perfect\u2014the caterers, the Parliamentary Service. The same goes on when we go out into our supermarkets, our schools, our hospitals, our buses, the motels, the restaurants. But in this particular building, I want to mihi first and foremost to all of those who behind the scenes make everything happen for us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000861\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EI know at times the whole world or the whole of Aotearoa thinks that we are \u201Cit\u201D; we\u2019re certainly not. So I want to mihi to the people we don\u2019t see, who we don\u2019t hear. I want to humble myself to you for every day what you do to make this possible, and I really love the cleaner who\u2019s got the Xmas caddy, because sometimes we walk out of here and you feel like you\u2019ve just been shot in the stomach and in the back, and you\u2019re limping up the stairs and you see her with her little caddy. I don\u2019t know if you\u2019ve all seen it, but it\u2019s brilliant. It\u2019s just brilliant for us to have around\u2014to actually have staff who show their character in this place, because in institutions at times it\u2019s really hard to see their character.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s really important that we continue to stay humble in this place, and it being my second term, what I have seen is waves of red fill the place and really assert themselves really confidently and be really proud. And then I\u2019ve seen them quietly leave with all their hopes and their passions and their boxes. We\u2019ve had to sit in the corridor and watch a whole corridor empty out. I want to remind ourselves this year\u2014and I congratulate our Government; I truly do. You worked hard and you\u2019ll continue to work hard to stay together. But those of us who campaigned\u2014and you have taught me the true meaning of what goes on in campaign, stays in campaign. But in all sincerity, I think it\u2019s really important to remember that we are replaceable. Most of us politicians are indeed forgettable, and not many of us are going to end up in bronze statues, and not all of us will become dames and sirs or Winston Peters. Those are unique politicians\u2014and I pay respect\u2014but we also need to stay humble and remember our egos in this place and remember the people that we\u2019re performing in front of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EI also I want to mihi to our P\u012Bka, who knows that I started, first and foremost, by trying to bring in my whanaunga from Te Tai Hau\u0101uru; I\u2019ve never seen him move so fast in his life to decline the offer. But we have enjoyed your wisdom. I know that you have some long-term relationships in here, and even though our ACT leader has gone, I\u2019m enjoying getting to know and having some space and some colleagues now with us to be able to understand the tikanga of the House. And I ask for the patience and enjoy listening to you all, old and new\u2014breaths of fresh air or old air. It\u2019s important for us to all understand and to learn that Governments are not the vessels of change as much as we think we are. We\u2019ve had some brilliant maiden speeches this year, but we rise and fall with the tide and the will of our people. I\u2019ll keep reminding that there are two Cinderellas in Parliament this year. We have experienced what it\u2019s like to leave here and to not be voted back in. I think it\u2019s really important to remember ourselves, to be humble.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000864\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EWe find ourselves as M\u0101ori, Pasifika, tangata Tiriti in a really unique situation where 83 percent of us didn\u2019t support this Government. I\u2019ll say this, and it\u2019s not to takahi: 1 percent voted for ACT, 4 percent voted for New Zealand First, 5 percent of M\u0101ori voted for National. My tono to you, even though that\u2019s the case, is that you don\u2019t leave tangata whenua behind. I get where you\u2019re going, but I also want you to see and hear our people and who we are today. Because even though we didn\u2019t vote for this Government, we are various peoples of privilege and how we use that privilege is really important and how we check ourselves\u2014and having privilege doesn\u2019t mean that we haven\u2019t had hardship. Having privilege means that there are certain times when people have an unearned benefit or advantage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EI really ask for our mana hau\u0101, for our t\u0101ngata hau\u0101, for our rainbow communities, for our M\u0101ori and Pasifika communities that we stay focused on what it is that you\u2019re needing to do. But please, please don\u2019t make them expendable as you\u2019re asserting your style of politics in Aotearoa in this very small, short time, because history has shown us that things often change very quickly. Te Tiriti had 500 rangatira; the Treaty had 50 rangatira. That\u2019s just facts, and I\u2019ll leave that there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EWe are a young nation. We\u2019re the last of the islands to be colonised. We\u2019re known as a nation of progress. We are acknowledged for how we made decisions in the past\u2014how we\u2019ve done it with women\u2019s votes, how we\u2019ve done it with our nuclear-free moments, how we\u2019ve done it with our tangata whenua, and how the Treaty is seen. So I acknowledge today that we\u2019ve reached a point in our political environment and our moment in time where we have, as tangata whenua, progressed so far that it\u2019s created fear. And somehow it\u2019s been viewed that we are putting a certain sector of people who are used to a certain type of superiority and power at risk. These are just my views to offer in the adjournment debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EI\u2019m not quite sure what we do with this knowledge as a nation. What I am really clear on is that I\u2019m a politician for a culture and a group of society where 70 percent of our population are under the age of 40 and 25 percent of our population are under the age of 21. I invite us to see who some of these mokopuna are and who they belong to. So they belong to some of the largest employers in Aotearoa. They belong to some of the largest landowners and providers of milk to Fonterra. They belong to some of the largest fishing industries. They belong to some of those with the largest fishing quota. They belong to some of those who have the largest infrastructure and tourism spaces. They belong to some of those who have the largest blueberries and the largest horticulture sectors. They are shareholders here in Taranaki of those who have the Government Crown leases. They belong to shareholders of perpetual funds that actually perform better than local and regional government perpetual funds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000868\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003ESo my hope is that we go away and have a good break, because everyone deserves it. It was a vicious campaign and people worked really, really hard to get their points across and to get to where they are today. But peace and goodwill is the theme that I intend to lead from our party for the season and that we use this period to be more tolerant, perhaps, to use our opportunities and relationships to give guidance, to fix where we have extreme views. I acknowledge that at times it will be seen as us having an extreme, opposing view. Also, I urge that we continue to behave with decorum and to be held accountable at times when we don\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000869\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003ETo our own people who are out there, I want to thank you for your support, through the polls and the media\u2014we don\u2019t have a great relationship with the media. In fact, I often use Jason as part of my TikTok content. I hope he gets the good spirit that\u2019s intended in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000870\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EBut I also I want to remind our people that we must be persistent. We must be patient. I am not the end game. You are not the end game. The end game is still being born. Their end game is still being born. We must stay focused on what matters. We must remember our t\u016Bpunas\u2019 lessons to be smarter, to be peaceful, to not be degrading ourselves, to act with dignity, and also oranga wh\u0101nau, oranga whenua, toit\u016B Te Tiriti.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000871\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EI hope also that we take this time to remember those that are suffering, that are in pain, to look after the elderly, to make sure that we take time out for them. Don\u2019t do the phone calls; if you can, get around and see them. Not everyone is having a happy Christmas. Not everyone has something under their tree. So please take time to help in whatever way that you can, with whatever generosity and charity that you have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000872\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EI hope also that we do all we can do to a ceasefire and to stop the violence that we see going on to children and innocent civilians, and we use all our sphere of influence, no matter what side you sit on, to make sure we spend this time to stop the world from being as cruel and harsh as it is to peoples, and we try and build a better, peaceful, dignified world for all to be able to live in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000873\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EI wish you all a merry Christmas, especially you, e te P\u012Bka. I cannot promise that Rawiri Waititi won\u2019t get booted out in the next term, but I certainly think will be five others that will be happy to fill that out for him as well. So all the blessings to you all. Kia ora r\u0101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u00228482860c16994d098b51d825b67c2e4c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000874\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228482860c16994d098b51d825b67c2e4c\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Labour\u2014Kelston):\u003C/span\u003E I want to acknowledge the last speaker for that beautiful speech. It was just such a lovely tone. I can\u2019t guarantee that mine will be of the same manner. So we were told that we would be kept here until Christmas. We\u2019re here, and then we come to the House and we find out the most senior person from the National Government is Chris Penk\u2014here on the last day. I\u2019m really proud of the fact that we\u2019ve lasted till the last minute, and it just goes to show how seriously we take this place, how seriously we take our representation, and that even though we may not have won the election, we are up for the fight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000875\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EWe came back after the election to urgency, and what did we come back to in terms of what the Government perceived as being urgent? The repeal of fair pay agreements, the repeal of the Resource Management Act, the repeal of the Clean Car Discount, and then the extension of the 90-day bill. This is what they prioritised in their first two weeks\u2014legislation that doesn\u2019t serve to actually help New Zealanders but actually takes away from them. And that is indicative of what we can expect for the next three years under that Government. They are mean-spirited, they are the Christmas Grinch, they are the Scrooge, Negative Nelly, and now we\u2019ve just heard in the House today that someone was at the signing of the Treaty of Waitangi even.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000876\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI feel for New Zealand. I don\u2019t think they actually knew what they signed up to. Gracious in defeat\u2014we lost the election, and we are gracious in defeat and we absolutely accept that. But I don\u2019t think they know what they signed up for. How could they know what they had signed up for when we were hit immediately with the repeal of smoke-free legislation? No one knew that was coming. Cuts for the tax cuts is what we got. And, actually, tax cuts where we don\u2019t even know when they will arrive, what they will look like, how they will be delivered, or how much they will cost. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000877\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI will add too, \u201CSorry but not sorry.\u201D, said the Government when during the campaign they said, \u201COh, we\u2019ll just do the proposed changes for Working for Families that Labour said that they\u2019re going to do.\u201D, and then they get into Government and then they say, \u201COh no, sorry, New Zealand\u2014can\u2019t do that now.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000878\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003ENew Zealand had no idea what they were signing up to when they voted in that side of the House. I think it\u2019s very fair to say there\u2019s been a bit of a cringe fest watching this three-headed demon, watching this very awkward three-way political relationship going on over there. And lots of people are saying \u201CHow long will this last?\u201D And many people are saying, \u201CGive it 18 months.\u201D Because, actually, when the head cowboy has to give up the ranch to the nephew cowboy from Northland, as well, then I think we\u2019re going to see a few problems. We all thought that the person inheriting the ranch would be Shane Jones, but it turns out it\u2019s that it\u2019s Rawiri Seymour, and let\u2019s see how that goes at the 18-month mark.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000879\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI do want to end on a positive note, even though that wasn\u2019t that negative really. So I\u2019ll move away from the three-ring circus, the awkward political three-way, the three-headed beast, over to my thanks for the many wonderful people that do work in this place, and they have been named. I want to apologise to the people that work in this place that will no longer get access to the fair pay agreement\u2014our security guards, our cleaners\u2014and I apologise on behalf of the Government for the fact that that will no longer happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000880\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI acknowledge that it has been a really tough year for New Zealand, actually, and I was there in Auckland on Auckland Anniversary Day when Auckland was hit by the worst flooding that I think we\u2019ve ever seen. At the same time, my house, along with many others, was flooding too, and I want to acknowledge that there were so many not just Aucklanders but New Zealanders that were impacted by those weather events. I also want to reiterate what James Shaw said earlier. It was the first real wake-up call for many people that climate change is real. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000881\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI want to wish everyone in this House a good Christmas. It has been a hard year. I want to wish the general public a good Christmas and please, please God let the weather be better than what it was last year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u002275ea85330243465da43733e263f24ea0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000882\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275ea85330243465da43733e263f24ea0\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Notwithstanding that last contribution, I want to thank and congratulate members who have participated in this adjournment debate, because we have come to the end of what has been a very long year, both in terms of real terms and in terms of Parliament. And I want to acknowledge all of those people that you oversee who make this place run on our behalf\u2014who serve and provide us with the services and the ability to do the jobs that we do\u2014on behalf of us all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000883\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo it has been a long, hard year, and none more so than for those who were impacted by the weather that occurred, first in Cyclone Hale and then in Cyclone Gabrielle, and I know that all too well for people who live in my own beautiful Coromandel electorate, but in other parts of the country that has been the case as well. But here we are, nearly at the end of the year, on the cusp of the prospect of a new year of new hope, new vision, and new direction for the country. And it can\u2019t come soon enough, because if ever there was a symbol of how out of touch and how tone-deaf the Labour Party had become, it was that last speech. They were out of touch, disconnected, and remote from the people of New Zealand. They no longer shared the reflective views, aspirations, and hopes of so many New Zealanders that put them on the Opposition benches for those reasons, and there they will stay for a very long period of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000884\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EBut we are ultimately a participatory democracy. It involves people participating, and as my late mother used to often say, \u201CThe world would be a very boring place if we all had the same views and opinions.\u201D This is a robust debating chamber. It is a Chamber where strong views and strong opinions should be strongly argued, and that\u2019s right and proper in a functioning democracy. But it couldn\u2019t happen\u2014none of us could be here without the help and support of the volunteers that put us here from our various parties. And I want to acknowledge in this final contribution this year those people from every political party\u2014whether they are parties that we agree or disagree with\u2014that make democracy in our country work. They are the people who put up the hoardings, deliver the pamphlets, knock on doors, make phone calls, and have the commitment of their views and opinions and then the commitment to actually go out and do something about it. And those are the people who, I think, are the heroes of our democracy. The people who frankly get up my nose are the ones who say, \u201CI don\u2019t care, it doesn\u2019t matter, it\u2019s not important.\u201D But it is important, they should care, and it does matter. So to all the volunteers from every political party, whether they\u2019re candidates, doorknockers, pamphleteers, phone ringers or whatever, I say thank you on behalf of our democracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000885\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EEvery three years, we have a general election. We can be proud of that in New Zealand. We have a peaceful, easy transition of power. That doesn\u2019t actually happen in every country, as we all know so well. So, I want to acknowledge the respectful, professional way that the outgoing Government transferred power. As I say, that doesn\u2019t necessarily happen in every country. We as Kiwis, I think, can be proud of that process. We may not like the result\u2014many people\u2014but we get on with it and we do it and we accept it. Then we have the ongoing, robust debate, as we should. Nothing wrong with that; that\u2019s exactly as it should be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003ESo, in conclusion, on behalf of my National Party colleagues, National Party supporters, volunteers, and members up and down the countryside, ACT and New Zealand First members, parties, supporters, volunteers, Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori, Green Party, Labour Party\u2014all those people, I want to say: thank you for your contribution to our functioning, participatory democracy. I want to wish you all a safe, peaceful, happy, contented Christmas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000887\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003EFinally, it would be remiss of me, as the humble but hard-working member of the Coromandel, not to invite you all to come to the beautiful Coromandel and spend some time, and more importantly, some money in my electorate. Mr Speaker, thank you very much, merry Christmas, kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00228786b4e73eea418b8690a0d7172cee77\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228786b4e73eea418b8690a0d7172cee77\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This is the one time of year that the Speaker gets to make a speech. I\u2019m tempted to spend some time talking about the challenges that come with the joy, the disappointments, the exhilaration of the year, etc.\u2014all that the country has been through, but, like many of you who are still here, I\u2019ve got a taxi waiting. So I simply want to acknowledge my fellow presiding officers: Barbara Kuriger, Teanau Tuiono, Maureen Pugh, and Greg O\u2019Connor. They certainly are doing a good job, and I\u2019m sure that you all appreciate that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI want to particularly acknowledge the Rt Hon Adrian Rurawhe, who might have been here and giving you much longer and more learned speech, had it not been for different circumstances changing all of that. Sir, I said it a couple of weeks ago, you brought a calm and a dignity to this House that was very much appreciated. I think the way in which the House has been substantially self-managing, in a way, over the last three weeks\u2014no, well, by and large it has. It is in no small way due to the legacy that you have left, and I thank you very much for that, and wish you personally all the best for the Christmas season and the new year. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000890\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ECould I acknowledge the Clerk, David Wilson, and his staff\u2014there are hundreds of them; they do a great job keeping us all on track; the Parliamentary Service CEO, Raf Gonzalez-Montero, and the nearly 700 staff, I think, both in Parliament and out of Parliament, that keep us working as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000891\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ETo all the groups that have been mentioned by the previous speakers. There\u2019ve been lots of thankyous, lots of salutations\u2014I simply stand by all of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000892\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ESo all I need now do is thank my own staff, Felicity Cuzens in Christchurch, Laree Taula here, and all the families of all the MPs, for all that they have to give up in order for all of us to be able to do the job that we\u2019re elected to. My sincere thanks. Again, I echo the sentiments expressed by many other previous speakers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EFinally, can I just wish all members of Parliament a very happy Christmas, a happy New Year, and all the best for whatever their wishes are in 2024.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000894\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EMotion to adjourn House and sitting days agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8415beb9bc94ccfb562a41c99699a7e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000895\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8415beb9bc94ccfb562a41c99699a7e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The House stands adjourned until 2 p.m. Tuesday, 30 January 2024.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000896\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 5 p.m. (Thursday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20231219bfc3a9f997e0448dae872399a406b20f000897\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"