"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b6b8a0d35df543d8ba443559c8b9e0be\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 20 FEBRUARY 2024\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022175d0e5c0fc04d539896c6e477c5c170\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 20 FEBRUARY 2024\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000002\u0022\u003E The Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ef2c72baf3104fb29b1600daa33b30b0\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c77af1f8daaa4c46af460504e48ff848\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022e299c22fed1246faa0881bd2d671937b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e299c22fed1246faa0881bd2d671937b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Almighty God, we give thanks for the blessings which have been bestowed on us. Laying aside all personal interests, we acknowledge the King and pray for guidance in our deliberations that we may conduct the affairs of this House with wisdom, justice, mercy, and humility for the welfare and peace of New Zealand. Amen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002272a24568c02f462d9d7672ecb2671070\u0022\u003EVisitors\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cdb617add54841a6970c0c4d914aaf24\u0022\u003EUnited States\u2014Senator Ron Wyden\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002256e8bde974cc42eeb670c90b471eb03c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002256e8bde974cc42eeb670c90b471eb03c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, I\u2019m sure that you would wish to welcome United States senator Ron Wyden and his accompanying people in the gallery today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002285b3ca8c5b9448b9ad27c7f4b6afd000\u0022\u003EPapers, Petitions, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e2583beba7234de8a04f4fcc8cd79ea9\u0022\u003EPapers, Petitions, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002298d4f5361a25421093a67f07d88e9779\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298d4f5361a25421093a67f07d88e9779\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A petition has been delivered to the Clerk for presentation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00226779c69af38147cba1815bedeb9ae6f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226779c69af38147cba1815bedeb9ae6f9\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: Petition of Jennifer Heath requesting that the House urge the Government to re-evaluate and expand Horokiwi\u2019s school zoning options to include Wellington City schools. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022b47c54d41859443c8961fa44b24dbcf8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b47c54d41859443c8961fa44b24dbcf8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That petition stands referred to the Petitions Committee. Ministers have delivered papers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u002287dd3220ea6f4545a770ca9e9e9c8095\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002287dd3220ea6f4545a770ca9e9e9c8095\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E2022-23 annual reports for the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority and Te Toka T\u016B Ake\u2014Earthquake Commission\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E2022-23 statement of performance expectations for the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022399fb6a1b7d14dc5be909c469bb58153\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022399fb6a1b7d14dc5be909c469bb58153\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I present to the House the report of the Controller and Auditor-General entitled Monitoring importers of specified high-risk foods. Those papers are published under the authority of the House. Select committee reports? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00229b09f34fc1cd41618db50b1ea2663fe0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b09f34fc1cd41618db50b1ea2663fe0\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: Report of the Petitions Committee on the petition of Merran Davis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00224114af9d31a44f6cbcef2fc681cd7099\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224114af9d31a44f6cbcef2fc681cd7099\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No bills have been introduced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002209610f655b6549a79b423632e5ce7c69\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222160ed05fb5447909b00de6ac8eafd74\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fb8069a85e8341fd8b88fe0c36514e57\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9 to Minister, 30 January\u2014Amended Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u00225708838ad3034630b8502d01869e3760\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225708838ad3034630b8502d01869e3760\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019d like to make a personal explanation regarding my answers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af3e743637fc493ab3d11cdde149d163\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course of action? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f1cd7f0240d47a9a4b6293ff68d0988\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d like to make a personal statement regarding my answers as Associate Minister of Health to oral questions on 30 January 2024. I\u2019m speaking specifically to the questions that asked if I was being truthful when I denied to the media that I had requested advice on freezing tobacco excise tax. On review of my response, I acknowledge that there is confusion arising from my understanding of the differentiation between seeking specific advice and accepting advice being offered. I had no intention of misleading the House, and I apologise for any confusion. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u002298ff001d125a49a28414d3b87d04721b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298ff001d125a49a28414d3b87d04721b\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the Opposition):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Speaker. Generally speaking, when a Minister is correcting an answer they have given, they state what the incorrect answer was and what the correct answer was. I don\u2019t think anyone in this House would be any the wiser as to exactly what it is the Minister has just corrected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00224e7fec30b5e04b87acbad3963a504d90\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e7fec30b5e04b87acbad3963a504d90\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that\u2019s not quite true, because I\u2019m very wise on these things and right up with it, as it happens. And if you think back to the way in which an earlier apology was given in this House for a matter that was potentially a matter of privilege\u2014and we still don\u2019t know where this ends up\u2014then you would see that a similar course of action was taken with no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u002215c6ea69a36743589f49b0291238dfd9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002215c6ea69a36743589f49b0291238dfd9\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the Opposition):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Speaker. I recall the questions asked quite clearly. The Minister was repeatedly asked whether she had requested advice and she repeatedly said no. Is her correction now saying that she did ask for that advice? If so, she should say that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022927b403d62554b0c85119aff8076a310\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022927b403d62554b0c85119aff8076a310\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t believe that is what has just been said, but I\u2019ll obviously have to read it when it comes out in the Hansard. I do know what the complaint was and I do know what the response was, and, clearly, this is still a matter under consideration. Thank you very much. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002200a0e995be8a4b9196d15c20d3451284\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022 data-id=\u0022a5cc936904564d2e832fbe5d4db20eb4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a5cc936904564d2e832fbe5d4db20eb4\u0022\u003EGREG FLEMING (National\u2014Maungakiekie)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What recent reports has she seen on New Zealand\u2019s economic and fiscal response to the COVID-19 pandemic?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022416caf3bd60942b0ac1bd3cefaf7b4d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022416caf3bd60942b0ac1bd3cefaf7b4d2\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ve seen a report delivered to the New Zealand Economics Forum by the Secretary to the Treasury in which she highlighted that effective fiscal stimulus in response to crises should be \u201Ctemporary, targeted and timely\u201D. She goes on to note in the speech that the bigger concern is the trajectory of spending and that, in New Zealand, operating expenditure has continued to exceed revenue on an ongoing basis, stating, \u201CThis was the case even through a period in which the economy was overheating and unemployment was at generational lows\u2014normally a time when we expect fiscal policy to be at its tightest.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c75cbaea08e14c3aae2fa8e92e5853cd\u0022\u003EGreg Fleming\u003C/span\u003E: What impact has Government fiscal policy had on interest rates?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d7e22697985489582e52d83076e1f72\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the same speech goes on to note that fiscal policy has had an impact on inflation, with the Secretary to the Treasury noting, \u201COur assessment is that fiscal policy has contributed to interest rates being higher than otherwise.\u201D And, of course, that has an impact on every single family with a mortgage, every person with a credit card debt, every small business trying to repay a loan. High interest rates hurt, and what we know is that loose fiscal policy has contributed to them being higher than they might otherwise have been.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecc5e5db4dd841dfbb31f0319aac4db5\u0022\u003EGreg Fleming\u003C/span\u003E: Why should New Zealanders be concerned about structural fiscal deficits facing the Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d628f9fa74c5435bad26196499e292f6\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, structural deficits ultimately have a fiscal impact, which means that they shift costs to future generations, they ultimately reduce Government\u2019s ability to provide public services, and they add considerably to debt-servicing costs. This year, the Government is forecast to spend $8.8 billion just servicing New Zealand\u2019s debt. That sum is more than the Government spent combined on secondary schools, police, and early childhood education last year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226eb26a191787461f8bedfe4490118214\u0022\u003EGreg Fleming\u003C/span\u003E: What action is the Government taking to bring spending back under control?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221da40ec010114cecbf344a6f1908efe2\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The coalition Government has started an ongoing fiscal sustainability programme to embed a culture of responsible spending across Government. The first step of this programme is an initial baseline savings exercise for Government agencies, designed to find about $1.5 billion per annum in savings to deliver on our policy commitments and to fund critical cost pressures. This situation brings to mind a cartoon that the Hon Grant Robertson once shared with me in question time; I would like to congratulate him on his foresight and wish him all the best for his future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227851b5ed797f4282b200cfebc58e6eb0\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Is it the Minister\u2019s assessment that the wage subsidy, the Small Business Cashflow (Loan) Scheme, and other policies to support businesses during the COVID pandemic are redundant and that she wouldn\u2019t have supported businesses to hold on to their employees during the pandemic?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec7728b9903c45e0bb12380d7547445b\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: As I\u2019ve just outlined in the answers to my previous questions, I concur with the view of the Secretary to the Treasury, which is that targeted and timely responses were warranted during the COVID epidemic. The real challenge that New Zealand is now facing is that the spending never got unwound and that it continued at very elevated levels without driving the kind of value and services that New Zealanders expect, and while seeing them endure a cost of living crisis in which they had far less money to spend in their take-home pay.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e3582832bca7449bb26443957e9cd353\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Prime Minister \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022 data-id=\u0022fad68e84b5b140c69d26e2cae73d8370\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fad68e84b5b140c69d26e2cae73d8370\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and policies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u0022f8d2a68bb0b3465e88ef47806868211c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f8d2a68bb0b3465e88ef47806868211c\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, in the context they were given.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6733b1f6a124e5a8302e4b6a923f61b\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: What will he do to protect the takat\u0101pui community from increased discrimination as a result of his Government\u2019s policies, such as their policy to ban transgender athletes from competing in publicly funded sports?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8d8624ab009442a80baa36471e666c7\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: That is not our policy. What we want to make sure is that sports balance fairness and inclusion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022112e8515b42c4e7aa27dfd28dc1251d1\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: What solutions will be put in place to address M\u0101ori health inequities after his Government dismantles the M\u0101ori Health Authority?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb912bf9a75c4be69c05cfa4bba81624\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we want to work hard to improve M\u0101ori health outcomes. We\u2019re going to work with local iwi, in the spirit of localism and devolution, to design solutions to improve outcomes locally. We just don\u2019t believe that the way to go about that is building a massive health central bureaucracy here in Wellington.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8b53d6622ca4cffb3860629013e4214\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: What actions is his Government taking to push for a sustainable ceasefire in Palestine? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022424e99fb81564dc0bc3e8ce22152dd4c\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ve been calling for a cessation of hostilities since October last year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e500c9c016cc435ca75546d5e5835e92\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: How bad is the Prime Minister willing to allow things to get before his Government cuts diplomatic ties and sanctions Israel for war crimes against Palestinian civilians?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ebdfab77ea24320bdcf5d6f9e3a5ae3\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I reject the assertion in that question. That is not something we\u2019re interested in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc77732e688f406e8292d6143375f125\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by the statement of Christopher Luxon, \u201CDo not be a climate denier. Do not be a climate minimalist. This is real. Give it up.\u201D, and, if so, why did his state of the nation speech this weekend mention climate action precisely zero times?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aed2b50f128f481faef11eec6791145c\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I do, and I disagree with you. We talked a lot about actually how we speed up the fast-track consenting process so we can get more renewable energy in place, whether that be geothermal, solar. We want to make sure we\u2019ve got renewable electricity in place so we can get double the amount of renewable electricity and get this country moving towards its climate goals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022451077677c9049fcaccff6ae75d5577d\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee777ff9471b4c788c67e7fa3ca0a013\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee777ff9471b4c788c67e7fa3ca0a013\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u0022f68907b25b214f14bb60c5971edd6186\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f68907b25b214f14bb60c5971edd6186\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I do. In particular, I stand by my statement from the weekend where I said, \u201CI haven\u2019t met a single young Kiwi whose ambition, creativity, and spark would be best served by a life on a benefit.\u201D That is why I\u2019m very proud to stand by this Government\u2019s actions to address the legacy of welfare dependency that the previous Labour Government was all too happy to grow. And, before I take any more questions, can I just acknowledge Grant Robertson\u2019s announcement of his retirement today. I thank him for his service in this place in Parliament, and also in Government, and wish him well for the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea0ae728f8d248f0aec8d8136b828dd2\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Is Louise Upston correct that changes to benefit indexation will save the Government $669.5 million through to 2027-28?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022371fd566e3bf4720a65810f19fede6d5\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it depends very strongly on what the forecast projections are going forward. As you know, in your previous Government, there was a period where, actually, inflation was running well ahead of wage increases. As a result, that\u2019s why we\u2019ve moved it back to make sure we index benefits to inflation so that people are protected from their purchasing power being eroded by inflation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbabcb602bc64bdcafa2889f3edade05\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I asked him whether the Minister was correct or not or whether he agreed with the Minister or not. He has given a whole lot of other information, but he hasn\u2019t actually answered whether or not he agrees with the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282d8705e96ce412ab10823d8bbdf8b36\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I thought he reasonably did, but ask the question again at no cost to your supplementary list.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db852312a41d43579d4212eb89e3eddd\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Is Louise Upston correct that changes to benefit indexation will save the Government $669.5 million through to 2027-28?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224dfd095f363d47c6b0fa9c6792b4315a\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: It all depends on the forecast going forward. But what I\u2019d say to you is indexing benefits going forward, indexing benefits to inflation\u2014that\u2019s the right way to go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229984fa777b394d80906880272e8e0e53\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Was Cabinet made aware of the fact that a disabled Kiwi on the supported living payment would lose $2,300 a year by 2028 thanks to changes to benefit indexations; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da53f80e78974d6e9e0c691267809ff3\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re making sure that benefits are adjusted by the amount of inflation so that the purchasing power of those beneficiaries is not eroded. That is the way we\u2019re managing it going forward, and we think that\u2019s the right approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a3b4347578542b1909c2f7aed72fe29\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. That didn\u2019t answer the question\u2014didn\u2019t come close to addressing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed59460306b34d51879526d204e6b976\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Now, I disagree with you because I think, while you ask a question, you can\u2019t guarantee what the answer is. But if the question was\u2014sorry, I was told not to get into explaining these things, so I won\u2019t explain it. I\u2019ll just say ask it again and we\u2019ll probably get the same answer that would be quite acceptable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294fb8f46664646f8a76acc0f2779bb23\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Was Cabinet made aware of the fact that a disabled Kiwi on the supported living payment would lose $2,300 a year by 2028 thanks to changes to benefit indexations; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fc011c2bd9140229d8d4ea998138cdb\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re not losing anything. We\u2019re adjusting benefits and indexing benefits to inflation so that the purchasing power of a beneficiary maintains, irrespective of what happens with inflation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022101c5ee0c96442ebb1facabf39b7bdd8\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: If people aren\u2019t going to lose anything because of their changes to benefit indexations, how is the Government saving $669.5 million?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b2bcb049a8c44ec83a92164a27c20ff\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re not losing anything, because we\u2019re adjusting benefits by the amount of inflation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e83c258790fb4709a913d52a56a03ba6\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Why did he state at his press conference yesterday that someone undergoing cancer treatment could be forced to work 10 hours a week?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7c13a57f5e84a8a80fadc8c544ca205\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: What I\u2019d say to you is we are determined to make sure that people who are on a jobseeker benefit are upholding their obligations. There is a case by case basis. There will be valid reasons why people may or may not meet their obligations. But people who are on a health ticket under the jobseeker benefit actually also want to work, in many cases. We are supporting people into work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220be409888d39465ca5a6a5482b45780d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s the total estimated cost of the coalition agreement to restore mortgage interest deductibility for rental properties, including the backdating that they have agreed to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022168a9d27323c49b5a9b5529240887983\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: That information will be available in the Budget in May.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7c8194f158c439181084f34f8d1cd6c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: What does it say about his Government\u2019s priorities that their first major financial decisions involve backdating tax breaks for landlords, increasing Government revenue from people smoking, and cutting benefits for the lowest-income New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222abf5bd1568e45f2bfb862f32ba2217e\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019ll tell you what we\u2019re not going to do: we\u2019re not going to do what that Government did, which was to increase the number of people on the jobseeker benefit by 70,000 people\u2014increased it by 58 percent, took the number of sanctions and obligations down by 57 percent. We care about young people on a benefit. We want to get people from welfare into work. On that basis, that would exclude the deputy leader of the Labour Party from running for the leader of the Labour Party one day down the road.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022383ee1cd914f4ba58961ef6f2b5717c9\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I know that the Opposition is having difficulty reorganising itself, but every member from that front bench over there shouting is surely not the way to image this Parliament. We don\u2019t mind objection\u2014we welcome it\u2014but that sort of screaming, mindless leadership mess is not what Parliament should look like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220198ecba5ebc4853b9eb10cd34e36643\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you might say that, but I was actually also looking over this side because the Prime Minister was speaking, and there was a considerable amount of support for what he was saying loudly coming from that side. So I think it\u2019s one all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022698c80d690b44bb19366ea51cdffd549\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Health (Pharmac)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022 data-id=\u00222a4178871e8c4ad797e750fb02f13d46\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a4178871e8c4ad797e750fb02f13d46\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON (ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Health (Pharmac): What benefits, if any, can New Zealanders expect to see from the Misuse of Drugs (Pseudoephedrine) Amendment Bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022361a8d4db5724645aa902f7bc1b4ac58\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022361a8d4db5724645aa902f7bc1b4ac58\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Associate Minister of Health (Pharmac)):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealanders can indeed expect great benefits from the legalisation of pseudoephedrine cough and cold treatments. The most obvious is that, when people get sick, they will be able to get stuff that works, not what is currently available, which many people regard as being little better than a placebo. In addition to that, it shows we have a Government that, when a law doesn\u2019t work, actually gets rid of it. It shows we have a Government that is prepared to try and make life better and easier for New Zealanders rather than constantly coming up with obstructions and objections.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf104b8808cc4b00b36425d52dfcbf08\u0022\u003ETodd Stephenson\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the Government think this law needs to be changed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223489fd1d8b7441f580947360c43f2f91\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: The law was put in place with the intention of stopping gangs supplying methamphetamine; unfortunately, the law did not succeed. The evidence for that is that, since pseudoephedrine cough and cold medicine has been denied from New Zealanders through an effective ban, the price of P has actually gone down, the availability has gone up, and the volume consumed has gone up. The law simply has not worked, and, therefore, we\u2019re getting rid of a law that doesn\u2019t work, so that life can be better and easier for New Zealanders, including getting better cough and cold medication.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d87832f8d3f743298c7b0cb5ffbc96d9\u0022\u003ETodd Stephenson\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Government be keeping in place safeguards for the sale and supply of pseudoephedrine?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dde786d2a4c74cdc8eec59553760949e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, indeed. The law change is a very simple one. It is changing pseudoephedrine from being a class B drug to a class C drug. There will still be significant restrictions around the importation, storage, and possession of pseudoephedrine within New Zealand. There will also be a change in the medicine\u2019s regulations so that pseudoephedrine goes from being a prescription-only drug to a restricted pharmaceutical. That means that, while you will not need a prescription from a GP, you will have to buy it directly from a pharmacist. These restrictions are designed to make sure that there are not negative spillovers from giving everyday New Zealanders the convenience of getting some decent cough and cold meds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0bc22d202e145f1b6d83582b31c18b6\u0022\u003ETodd Stephenson\u003C/span\u003E: When will pseudoephedrine be back on the shelves in New Zealand, providing effective treatments for Kiwis?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022036f4d72b4184f94a7a17c5f62a9a25a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the exact timing depends on two things: first, the Parliament changing the law, and the Government making sure that the regulations are in place and Medsafe is prepared to give the approvals to the products\u2014their approvals have lapsed since they were, effectively, banned over a decade ago; second, it will depend on pharmaceutical companies making applications to Medsafe and being ready to sell the pharmaceuticals that people need by this winter, when the most demand is in place. We\u2019ve had official advice that that may not take place\u2014the full availability\u2014until 2025, but I can tell you that Medsafe, myself, and everyone on the Government side of this operation are doing everything we can to make sure that good cold and flu meds are on the shelves by this winter, when people need them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002242a0748f3e754f23bc95ffdc9952adb3\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Social Development and Employment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u002248dfd82508484c13a64d24a1e7ce495d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248dfd82508484c13a64d24a1e7ce495d\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Labour\u2014Kelston)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: What reports has she received, if any, advising her of the possible child poverty impacts of indexing benefits to inflation rather than wages?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022a09e499824af48498d5dd08f8e47ee8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a09e499824af48498d5dd08f8e47ee8e\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E The publicly available report states that preliminary modelling shows indexing benefits to inflation in isolation as a policy, in the absence of any other Government policy interventions before 2028, may increase the number of children captured by the before-housing-cost moving line measure and after-housing-cost fixed line measures of child poverty by 7,000. The Government will, however, make other policy interventions before 2028, such as delivering tax relief and stopping petrol tax hikes, that will significantly help families with children in modest to low income households, who we know have been doing it particularly tough during the cost of living crisis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256b7f4ee92074d5f9cc050e9d17bc46a\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: Given that net average wage growth for the purposes of annual general adjustments is now due to outstrip inflation this year, have the reports she\u2019s received updated the forecast child poverty figures?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1471370008b42e49f783ff827e35ad3\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: We haven\u2019t received updated child poverty figures. Every policy and consideration that we will be making in the months ahead will, but, as I have answered in my primary question, it is not one policy intervention on its own that will support us as a country to lift more children out of poverty; it will be a collection of policies that our Government is committed to taking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219b593b2ae8b4caca3ab71d825cf3ae1\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: Do any of her reports highlight the disproportionate child poverty impact on disabled children, given that disabled children or children living with a disabled adult are more likely to live in households where an adult is on benefit?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b02a2eaee1146cdb0cb4fed5e6cba60\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t think it would be a surprise to this House that there are certain groups where there is a higher risk of children living in poverty, and our Government is focused on those, whether it is Pasifika, M\u0101ori, and disabled, that we will of course take into consideration with any policies that we are putting in place to reduce child poverty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221860b85709734446adeff0b7d516c464\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: Do any of the reports she has received highlight the disproportionate poverty impact on sole mothers and their children, given that 80 percent of sole parent benefit recipients are women?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ac88e832c954567a530f19ace6cf19d\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely, and what this Government won\u2019t do is allow the number of children in benefit-dependent homes to grow by 45,000 like that Government did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022177c47220cf7465195142ce9891dbff8\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: Are Ministry of Social Development figures correct that indexing benefits to wage inflation had moved over 5,000 children out of poverty, and, if yes, why is she hell-bent on making changes that increase rather than decrease the number of New Zealand children living in poverty?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294e5e3a19b3f46689365a0edd38d6be8\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: This side of the House is really committed to reducing the number of children living in child poverty. We know there\u2019s not one silver bullet; it\u2019s not one policy on its own that will make a difference. Addressing the cost of living crisis, providing tax relief, and getting on top of ridiculous tax hikes for petrol are very practical things that will help low and middle income families as well as those who are receiving benefits.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002280e6937fbbcb4476b8c5127667dfd4a5\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022 data-id=\u0022f8d0650e7a7345c5a348b41e539ce5b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f8d0650e7a7345c5a348b41e539ce5b2\u0022\u003EDANA KIRKPATRICK (National\u2014East Coast)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What recent announcements has the Minister made in relation to improving access to breast cancer screening for New Zealand women?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u0022990a849d7a0f478296b3bfbbb6683617\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022990a849d7a0f478296b3bfbbb6683617\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Last week, the Government took its first steps towards delivering on our promise to extend free breast cancer screening to women aged 70 to 74. Breast cancer is the most common cancer amongst New Zealand women, and that\u2019s why the Government prioritised this crucial initiative in our 100-day plan. I\u2019d like to thank the Breast Cancer Foundation for their continued advocacy in this area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abc07f2a95684508abfdbac6ed233f44\u0022\u003EDana Kirkpatrick\u003C/span\u003E: What are the next steps for the extension of breast cancer screening services?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c16807850d348b0a9081e8f89906c81\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI\u003C/span\u003E: There is a lot of work to be done in terms of preparation. We need to grow our workforce and support them with the infrastructure required to expand our screening services. Health New Zealand is also working through a process to ready the whole health system for the additional women that will take up screening each year and for those who will, sadly, require treatment. We\u2019re ambitious to advance this as soon as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c22021f541e436b93e5ecdcb7c320f7\u0022\u003EDana Kirkpatrick\u003C/span\u003E: What benefits does he anticipate from extending the age for breast cancer screening?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7093b9c9237436cb95ff27706aafe17\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m advised that, once the programme is fully implemented, the extension will mean that women will become eligible for two to three extra mammograms, on average. This means around 120,000 additional women will be eligible for screening every two years. Catching more cancers early means better treatment outcomes. The extension could potentially save 65 lives per year; however, on our current settings, that relates to 22 lives saved. That\u2019s not just 22 women but also their family, friends, and loved ones who won\u2019t have to endure the emotional impact of cancer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022455434f44daa4e44952f6f109b0c27fc\u0022\u003EDana Kirkpatrick\u003C/span\u003E: What feedback has the Minister received on this announcement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1401a37a6d84243bc1bf23c56a02699\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI\u003C/span\u003E: I have received lots of feedback regarding this announcement. The chair of the Breast Cancer Foundation, Justine Smyth, has said, \u201CWe\u2019ve been asking for the breast cancer screening age to be raised to 74 for the past eight years, so it\u2019s fantastic to see work is finally underway on this.\u201D This support has been echoed by many members of the public and health professionals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227aef2a5460854653aa641925fdd26569\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f23dc461cc0a4ce0af309962ba18fc66\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f23dc461cc0a4ce0af309962ba18fc66\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Does he stand by his statement that there is a health \u201Cworkforce crisis\u201D and does he accept the estimates of health workforce shortages Te Whatu Ora published in July 2023 as an accurate reflection of the shortages at the time they were published?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u002203ce9fde97cb45d49ebb1369e6756813\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002203ce9fde97cb45d49ebb1369e6756813\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I stand by my statement that there is a workforce crisis, as I\u2019ve said repeatedly for some time. To the second part of the question, yes, particularly where the document states, \u201C[There] has been pressure on our health workforce which needs to lift; we have heard this message clearly from our workforce.\u201D I have heard that message also.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2ffb9f3fec04fb0b6d5f77aca6c9402\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: What urgent actions will he take to address workforce shortages that will have an impact this year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f8a833a44cc412db7db10a0c1184a03\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re very encouraged by the increase in general practice registrars who actually start either this week or next week, which, I understand, is the largest cohort of general practice registrars, which will then feed through into the general practice network, so I\u2019m very pleased with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228761d297439043df99624d80ec979b4d\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Would he like to congratulate the Government that implemented that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274943966170f4623970343ceebd17a6b\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a03bb94458594e628b2085e98a276e72\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Is it correct that, after gaining office, talking up a crisis, he did not receive a briefing on the health workforce from Te Whatu Ora in his first two months in office?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b231c43f9a6641e4866034b1bab29e50\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI\u003C/span\u003E: I would need to see the exact dates that I\u2019ve received briefings, but I\u2019ve made it very clear to Health New Zealand and to the Ministry of Health that the health workforce is our number one priority, and they clearly have that in their headlights.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d0c21f4519f746dd82acbc94169bbf59\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Social Development and Employment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac757e59584c453fad87d7489afaa756\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac757e59584c453fad87d7489afaa756\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: How many jobseeker beneficiaries, if any, get jobs as a direct result of attending work seminars they are required to attend to avoid benefit sanctions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u00229e3dfb72d9c5468c81932c007d56e76a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229e3dfb72d9c5468c81932c007d56e76a\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E The Ministry of Social Development (MSD) cannot provide this exact measure, as the member was told by the previous Government. This new coalition Government is not content to allow New Zealanders to languish on the jobseeker benefit without proactive support or checking in on their progress to find work. We want them to experience the independence and opportunities that come from work. That\u2019s why yesterday I announced that 2,500 additional people will receive greater face-to-face support through regular check-ins.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f44ed06426e47f88453d74933cbf15a\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: How can she be confident, then, that these work seminars support people into employment when MSD does not measure any outcomes after attending seminars and people risk losing their benefit if they do not engage with them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b88ffad70b574ba9aaf238cd77485893\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not that the outcomes aren\u2019t measured; it\u2019s just that they are not accumulated across every single beneficiary. So if we look at a recent seminar in the top of the South Island, 82 Kiwi job seekers turned up to that seminar; 64 secured interviews. Had they not been there, they would not have taken that very important step of securing an interview that, for some, would have led to employment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ea2374796814056be7c28a067f8843e\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: What outcomes, then, are measured as a direct result of people attending those work seminars?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7e387c65feb4e4ba9bd0ac50a2f8616\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: The outcome is just that it\u2019s not collated as an entire figure. What we do know\u2014and a recent one that I attended in Christchurch showed a number of people who are getting additional support, whether it is being connected to training opportunities, in this instance through Te P\u016Bkenga\u2014employers come along to those work seminars to find staff and find employees. In another business that I visited on the same day in Christchurch, they have employed over 220 people off the jobseeker benefit, who they find at these work seminars.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022538ed55996ae437cadb67acf986003d0\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: How can she be confident, then, that increasing benefit sanctions will support people into secure, sustainable employment when MSD does not know if any of the people attending work seminars to avoid sanctions, actually, as a direct result, get a job, not just an interview?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255631a0ebec3453580fb8856515d545a\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: When job seekers come into the range of seminars that are available\u2014formal and informal\u2014in Work and Income offices up and down this country, they are getting assistance with interview techniques, they are getting connected to employers, they are getting assistance with CVs. For some of them, it\u2019s getting them on the path to getting a driver\u2019s licence. These are practical things that address the barriers that some people face on their path to employment. There is not one thing that will support, unfortunately, the 190,000 that are on the jobseeker benefit currently. We are doing everything we can. Yesterday was a first important step in the reset of the welfare system to support more people off welfare and into work, and obligations and consequences are part of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222808f1f98c5846e4a8408bc3de6cdb25\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: If she is unable to name direct, related outcomes to attending work seminars\u2014people getting a job\u2014is it that she just wants to punish people further into poverty by increasing sanctions for not engaging with workshops that have no evidence of working?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec2aec82a91641239b71582539ad4954\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve given multiple examples today. I\u2019ve got a list of others if the House would like me to go through them, but the reality is, when someone is on a path to work, there are sensible, practical things they need to do. One of them is having a CV, one of them is knowing what to do in an interview, one of them might be to go on and do some further training, and one of them is to actually meet employers and to connect with them, to then be offered a position that leads to a job. I\u2019ve given the example of one employer alone in Christchurch: 220 job seekers that that business has taken on. It is only fair to workers all over New Zealand that they know that those they are supporting on the welfare system are doing their bit to support them to find work: turning up to a seminar and getting support and assistance face to face with a great team of Work and Income workers is a great step. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d9b152dcb97415ba2a84f97b9843c1a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just wait for a bit of silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bcdae4c20e544ef8373f88e4217322f\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister disagree, then, with MSD officials who told the select committee that outcomes are not measured? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a98d29964e4e466ca3642ba2f5715dca\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: I disagree that the total number of outcomes from work seminars across the country is not collated centrally. That is the point that I made in my primary answer. But, of course, we are very excited about the opportunity with this coalition Government to get more of the 190,000 New Zealanders who are currently on the jobseeker benefit into work, and particularly, I\u2019ve got a message for the parents of young people who go on to welfare under the age of 20: we will not sit and let those young people rot on welfare for 24 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ea8ef7f838b54e42aef6dba6d0142837\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef83ab0387ce479abb9e793371c99829\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef83ab0387ce479abb9e793371c99829\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Is he committed to delivering positive M\u0101ori health outcomes; if so, what are those outcomes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u0022e1c1aa9cfe4e4220b5303dd842121816\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e1c1aa9cfe4e4220b5303dd842121816\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E To the first arm of the question, yes, and to the second arm, I am committed to lifting health outcomes for M\u0101ori, and this will be informed by those outcomes identified in Pae 2 in the Whakamaua action plan, including outcomes such as diabetes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3c7dbaf595149188055e05b9ccbcde1\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: What percentage of uplifts in M\u0101ori immunisation rates has the Minister seen following his $50 million announcement on 21 December last year, and what changes does he expect to see in the 12 months to follow?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2a73e8a64ef42b1ba2d9b923ef8d1c7\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI\u003C/span\u003E: The immunisation project that we announced before Christmas was simultaneously with an announcement around the new immunisation information technology programme, which will give us much more granular and real-time levels of immunisation rates. As a consequence of that, I\u2019ve been asked for weekly monitoring of those new rates, and we\u2019ll be setting what those objectives will be when we announce our priorities and Government policy statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022148b09ed94bb479ea5de7347662407f0\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister meaningfully consider the recommendations following the Waitangi Tribunal\u2019s urgent inquiry into the dissolution of Te Aka Whai Ora, and will he commit to meeting with the claimants?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e2f272a53be4383b5771920139512ba\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI\u003C/span\u003E: Those discussions with the Waitangi Tribunal are sub judice, but, in a very general sense, I would say that we\u2019ll take on board all discussions and all dialogue from all parties.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a22318588e0c46f598a24aaad4406801\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: What consultation, if any, has the Minister undertaken with hauora providers, iwi, hap\u016B, community organisations, and urban M\u0101ori organisations regarding the disestablishment of the M\u0101ori Health Authority?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224afa2f88d740429c9cfbd2866c7b8796\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI\u003C/span\u003E: I have had discussions in a general sense with M\u0101ori, with iwi leaders, and with providers, both on Zoom and in person, and we have discussed what a different future might look like with the dissolution of the M\u0101ori Health Authority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ae2dfbfd34914fa6b10804cde88990a1\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Social Development and Employment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u0022d95fe4769cb0449fa2350ee1b4b6976f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d95fe4769cb0449fa2350ee1b4b6976f\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: What actions, if any, has she taken to date that aim to reduce welfare dependency in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u00224b4d98abc60d4a058c417529687f8987\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b4d98abc60d4a058c417529687f8987\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Our coalition Government is not prepared to accept the welfare system we inherited, where work-ready job seekers were forecast to spend, on average, 13 years on a benefit, and teenagers could become trapped on welfare for 24 years of their working lives. We have higher aspirations for the prospects of New Zealanders. So, last Friday, I formalised with the Ministry of Social Development our Government\u2019s view that all existing obligations and sanctions are applied. If job seekers fail to attend job interviews, complete their pre-employment tasks, or don\u2019t take available work, consequences should be applied. Yesterday, I also announced that, from June, new work check-ins will begin for job seekers so that we can better support people to shift into work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4e9088fda9e476fa3696ae3c27a166f\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: Why has the Government taken these first steps to reset the welfare system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227944c3422c2f486cae280c8c400db539\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: New Zealanders are better off in work, if they can work. Work improves financial independence, as well as their social and health outcomes. Unfortunately, the number of people on the jobseeker benefit has increased by 70,000 during the past six years, while sanctions applied for breaches of work obligations decreased by 35,259. Sanctions are one part of the tool kit in the welfare system. Because people are better off in work, we want to ensure that the welfare system motivates people to move into available jobs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1e1492030f742688f0b141bec3fd0b1\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: What is the purpose of the work check-ins the Minister has announced as the first steps of the Government\u2019s reset of the welfare system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1f66122a9f34ed18f322d3d2368f124\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: The number of people who have spent longer than one year on the jobseeker benefit has increased by 40,000 by September 2017. Vicious cycles\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a89dfbcaaddd4864b84b8bb0bfbd8a58\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: How much?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266c0b0606fa343499004cc895f5b5a4a\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Say that again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211da09e557784adbb23173d7328cb7a3\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: \u201440,000\u2014of welfare dependency trap adults and children in hardship and erode New Zealanders\u2019 potential. This Government wants a more proactive welfare system that ensures people are making good progress to become work-ready. The check-ins will provide a way to see if job seekers have been fulfilling their obligations such as making regular job applications, as well as ensuring they are getting effective support to help them shift into work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f9436bd1d96424780b97e4d43ae49b7\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: Who will be required to attend the work check-ins?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a224ffd154d2404c9473defc5d3c7e45\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: People who have been on the jobseeker benefit for six months will be eligible for the proactive work check-ins. The longer people spend on benefits the harder it is to re-enter the workforce. We will not stand by and see New Zealanders\u2019 potential go to waste. By intervening earlier, we can reduce the risk of people becoming dependent on welfare long term and help them experience the independence and opportunities that work provides. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dc0d94c41c42406b879fa610f2467931\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014RMA Reform\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u002248388b6ac22b448a9cbb0635af8ba499\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248388b6ac22b448a9cbb0635af8ba499\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister responsible for RMA Reform: Does he stand by his statement in relation to the Government\u2019s proposed approach to fast-track consenting that \u201CThis is not new, by the way, because the COVID fast-track legislation also listed projects in the legislation and also set up a process for Ministers to refer projects to an expert consenting panel\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00223a3130531b0543d78541863e722a48c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a3130531b0543d78541863e722a48c5\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222793f74df1ad4b7cb29e0824fda49576\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Can he confirm that a fundamental difference to the COVID-19 fast-track legislation is that, under the proposed new legislation, the ultimate power to approve listed projects will lie with Ministers rather than with an expert consenting panel?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1fcb708cd884de1819be466981556a8\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, final design parameters of the scheme are yet to be confirmed by Cabinet, and when the bill is ready for tabling and release, it will be done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022642457f2651848b29aa92a3f25dce72f\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Is he concerned that granting Ministers the power to fast track consents for projects, including those that have previously been declined under the existing COVID legislation because of environmental risk, is, in the words of the CEO of the Environmental Defence Society, \u201Ca return to the use of unbridled executive power [that] we thought we\u2019d left behind.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248da2e2c0b9649aab460592db89983c4\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: No, and I\u2019m not going to take lectures from Gary Taylor around what we should or shouldn\u2019t do in this country. What I am concerned about in this country is that the time it\u2019s taken to consent major infrastructure has doubled in the last five years, and we now spend, as a country\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f51d2494bc340b28d00a150d1c45cc7\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not true. It\u2019s not true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a097ccc1158449e822095259379f834\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: It is true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1818002e60848de9b6219e1280b7135\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Fast track sped it up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f4f96e064864d13a27048978f57a1e8\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m quoting a report from an entity set up by the last Government, the Infrastructure Commission. So the member might want to say it\u2019s not true, but it\u2019s a publicly available report from Sense Partners. What I am concerned about is that we spend $1.3 billion a year in this country consenting infrastructure\u2014by most measures, some of the most expensive consenting processes in the developed world. I want more renewable energy in this country and I want to build roads for the future and public transport projects, but it is near impossible to do things expeditiously, efficiently, and in a cost-effective way because of the Resource Management Act. We\u2019re going to fix it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b31aa12e6e74f4f86b58992358ed942\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Can he confirm that there are no fewer than 59 projects currently proposed for inclusion in the primary legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257f6b6f4cbe04866a2d93de9ac81ad1c\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: I think it\u2019s actually more than 59, to be honest, because we are looking at a vast array of projects, and the precise list and exactly how those processes work with the process we\u2019re setting up will be a decision for Cabinet, and it\u2019s not too far away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227665e7b404464f0eb4f7d46a6cdcc7ba\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm, during that brief period of enlightenment when the earlier bill was passed, that there were actual projects in the bill that were consented by Parliament?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e14869f922b4c14a08c4145489abf6f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, indeed, I can confirm that there were 17 listed projects in the COVID fast-track bill passed by the last Parliament: Te Ara Tupua, the Ngauranga to Petone shared path; the Wellington metro upgrade; Papakura to Pukekohe rail electrification, which I know the Hon Judith Collins is a big fan of; Britomart station eastern upgrade; Unitec Residential Development; Papakura to Drury South State Highway 1 improvements; a water storage reservoir in Kaikohe; the Queenstown Arterials Project; and a papa k\u0101inga development in Kait\u0101ia\u2014more housing up Far North, which everyone supports. In fact, there are six papa k\u0101inga developments on this list. A whole range of proposals were supported by the previous Government, and we are adopting a similar procedure with this fast-track legislation and going further and faster to make sure we can get stuff done in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a884df92ab794dcb985ba57dac2e3cbc\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Will he rule out including the Te Kuha coal mine in the list of projects to be approved in the primary legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228727fcabefa5493fa01d1fbf974058ad\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, decisions as to what projects will be included in the legislation are matters for Cabinet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c947f18fc3f46ac8002d5ebc0dc0e30\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: So, given the extraordinary powers that have been granted to Ministers in this legislation, what measures is he taking to ensure that the list of projects that Ministers approve for inclusion in the legislation are not connected to people or organisations that are significant donors to coalition parties?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd5b02645a3c451e9071c4798989ab3c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ee1b924258f403183b7e54830e3fc6e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Hang on a minute. Wait on. Just reword the question because you can\u2019t put an inference in a question like that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244a49a91e6164c0eb7c0d77cd1015030\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I wasn\u2019t inferring; I was asking the Minister who is responsible for drafting the legislation, given that this legislation grants extraordinary powers that we haven\u2019t seen in four decades for Ministers to personally approve projects\u2014I\u2019m asking what measures he\u2019s looking at to ensure that there is accountability. I mean, that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022205b565b95954e7f99d9f8c87ffc6ee7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the problem is, the Hon James Shaw, that the Minister started his answer by saying that the bill is not yet in a form that anything could be asserted against it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f28f4f0e103041bda47f846cc0cf6e0b\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: And that\u2019s my point\u2014that in the design stage of the legislation, surely it is incumbent upon the Minister, at that point rather than after the legislation has been drafted, to ensure that there are appropriate checks and balances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd108c13547443b9bfe7b2fb38f8b5c9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: All I\u2019m saying is have another crack at asking the question, in a slightly different way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233c067953c724aa09bed8d14c4b34b78\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Well, can the Minister, given the extraordinary powers that are being granted to Ministers to approve projects in the primary legislation, without the ability of an expert consenting panel to decline those projects\u2014what measures is he taking to ensure that there are no conflicts of interest?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1f63e4fe9b14e4f92dc1a80b86117cb\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, there are a variety of hypotheses in that question, which may or may not turn out to be true. The member will have to wait for the final design of the fast-track procedure, but, as I\u2019ve said twice now in response to previous questions, there are a variety of mechanisms through the Cabinet process and the parliamentary process and electoral law processes designed to make sure that the type of implications that the member is making are handled appropriately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229409f87031734a218ec338039467181d\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Transport\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u002210a4472257064c98a0bec8d2e800217b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002210a4472257064c98a0bec8d2e800217b\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: Does he stand by all his statements and actions? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00228a2191cb62874726a9cdf2a52a897cff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a2191cb62874726a9cdf2a52a897cff\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, including my statement that Auckland light rail was an irresponsible project that would have cost taxpayers up to $29.2 billion, and which the last Government failed to deliver a single metre of track on despite spending $228 million on this project. We\u2019ve already scrapped this wasteful project, which is starting to address the last Government\u2019s $200 billion funding gap in the transport budget. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd2f359b2b744871bec54e6a2d688c2f\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: How does he reconcile his statement that he will not tax Aucklanders an additional 11.5c per litre on fuel to fund \u201Cmore cycle lanes, redlight cameras, speed [bumps,] and lowering speed limits across the city\u201D when Auckland Council information shows that, of the total funding available for regional fuel tax projects, safety and active transport initiatives represented just 16\u00A0percent of the regional fuel tax project spending? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c89ed7b96724fcc9edec4e91448f818\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it\u2019s great to be talking about the regional fuel tax again in Parliament and how we\u2019re going to lower the cost of living for Aucklanders, and I\u2019d make the point to the member that there is a range of categories which we will not be funding, which includes bus priority improvements, bus infrastructure, the cycling and the speed bump category\u2014which comes under road safety\u2014and active transport, but we will be making sure that the remaining funding goes towards the projects which the mayor and I have discussed, which includes the Eastern Busway, the City Rail Link, and local roading improvements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d9b4b1849454109aac2aeeb59b1cdbf\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Hmm. Why does the Minister consider it appropriate to rush through a bill under urgency to cancel the very revenue stream for a number of projects that Aucklanders are relying on\u2014projects that Auckland Council have determined will meet the pressing needs that Auckland faces now and into the future\u2014without any commitment to any additional new funding? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c1259cf81374c0cb7c2bcc518f15159\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, this might sound really, really radical, but we went to the election with a campaign promise, Aucklanders overwhelmingly voted for the coalition Government, and we\u2019re delivering it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214a0847d84ed4405b782d6374eecaaad\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Why won\u2019t the Minister give any certainty around what additional Government funding he will give to meet the clear shortfall that he has now left to Auckland Council to deliver on the very projects that they need? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bef6cbc3acd4e7f8b7dbbe51baaa765\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we\u2019ve said the other projects are not priorities for this Government, but we will ensure the remaining funding\u2014over two years\u2019 worth of regional fuel tax money taxed from Aucklanders, sitting in a bank account\u2014will go towards delivering and completing the Eastern Busway, the City Rail Link trains and stabling, and local roading upgrades. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1c20a93f0ff46f79f30b237e83fbcf4\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister accept that Aucklanders saving 11.5c per litre means very little to them if they then face significant thousands of dollars in rates increases to fund investment in vital transport and water infrastructure projects, or is he quite happy to continue to pull the rug out from under Mayor Wayne Brown? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277c8058b97db431b938d6dcba897755a\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the Aucklanders\u2014as I said, they overwhelmingly voted for the coalition Government. We are delivering on our promises to provide cost of living relief for the motorists of Auckland, and I\u2019m not going to be lectured from an Opposition over there which wants to spend 11.5c per litre on speed bumps. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e6e2a367cbe4712b5cc92f29754e0b6\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Will he guarantee, right here, right now, that all stages of the Eastern Busway and the Glenvar Road - East Coast Road adjustment projects will be completed, and, if not, why not? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bd2fd8610ea4a9d9d71345e532253d9\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: We are allocating the money\u2014the remaining $340 million\u2014plus the money that will be collected between now and 1 July to those projects to make sure they are being delivered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6ba68ee08da424ebf5bb6de67d91a8d\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree that it is unusual to see a Government\u2014particularly in transport, in light of recent history\u2014promise something and then actually deliver it? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d6d747d56da4826a23f08bb2b7a4187\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as I\u2019ve said\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022952916f195914254835e3c9916cbb468\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No that\u2019s\u2014no, thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1ec462e474741d59770ed325bb813f9\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I seek leave to table a not publicly available table from Auckland Council that shows that the total percentage of safety and active transport initiatives make up 16\u00A0percent of regional fuel tax - enabled project spending. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e605640602354ae29afed7e96ba51797\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Why is it not publicly available? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022103728903d8c4c83ab2eee205e57f6b6\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m advised that it is not publicly available. It has been obtained\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225912728d169e44338c9319b093164391\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: How did you\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f32b9d0b067847bf84fda2b80a853e3f\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014from me\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fa20530036d473a88f4ca269bcc17ac\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: How did you get it? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274baebe0a80e4306bde01d75404f9562\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014obtained by Auckland Council. [Interruption] Well, the Minister, earlier last week, asked Auckland Council to get the information\u2014so I did. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287e6add9d38745598c221cc18abbcac3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection? There appears to be none. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227392ccaffe394f75ac3788ad2fd9e675\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That concludes oral questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002288c3010168374dd4b8c5ac6cd2e55990\u0022\u003EStanding Orders\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d7ca57c5e0f34628acd27510b9a311dc\u0022\u003ESessional\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00229158adb6ea204cd6af2c304e532f0ae4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229158adb6ea204cd6af2c304e532f0ae4\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the following rules relating to the Intelligence and Security Committee be adopted as a sessional order:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EINTELLIGENCE AND SECURITY COMMITTEE\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E1 \tDefinitions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EFor the purposes of these rules,\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIntelligence and Security Committee means the Intelligence and Security Committee that is continued by the Intelligence and Security Act 2017\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003Eintelligence and security agency means\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E(a) \tthe New Zealand Security Intelligence Service:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E(b) \tthe Government Communications Security Bureau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E2 \tConduct of committee\u2019s proceedings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESubject to the Intelligence and Security Act 2017, the proceedings of the Intelligence and Security Committee are conducted in accordance with the rules and practice of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E3 \tAttendance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EStanding Order 38 applies and is to be read as if the Intelligence and Security Committee were a select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E4 \tReferral of bill or other matter to committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E(1) \tThe House may refer to the Intelligence and Security Committee any bill or other matter relating to an intelligence and security agency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E(2) \tStanding Orders 295 to 304, 306, 308, 326(3), 337(1), and 383 apply and are to be read as if the Intelligence and Security Committee were a subject select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E(3) \tWhen a paper has been presented under Standing Order 269(1) and (2) (concerning the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990) that relates to a bill that is before the Intelligence and Security Committee, the Clerk allocates that paper to the committee for consideration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E(4) \tA declaration of inconsistency may be allocated to the Intelligence and Security Committee under rule 4(2) of Appendix F of the Standing Orders, and Appendix F applies and is read accordingly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E5 \tReferral of petition to committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EDespite Standing Order 379, every petition relating to an intelligence and security agency stands referred to the Intelligence and Security Committee for consideration and report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E6 \tEstimates and Supplementary Estimates for intelligence and security agencies\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E(1) \tDespite Standing Orders 345(2) and 350(1), the Finance and Expenditure Committee must allocate to the Intelligence and Security Committee the Votes or appropriations contained in the Estimates and Supplementary Estimates for each intelligence and security agency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E(2) \tStanding Orders 338(1), 338A, 338C, 346, 348, 350(2), and 351(3)(b) apply and are to be read as if the Intelligence and Security Committee were a select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E7 \tAnnual reviews of intelligence and security agencies\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E(1) \tDespite Standing Order 353, the Finance and Expenditure Committee must allocate to the Intelligence and Security Committee the annual review of each intelligence and security agency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E(2) \tStanding Orders 353A, 354(2), 356(1)(b) and (3), and 357 apply and are to be read as if the Intelligence and Security Committee were a select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E8 \tExamination of policy, administration, and expenditure of intelligence and security agency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIn addition to its consideration of Estimates, Supplementary Estimates and annual reviews, the Intelligence and Security Committee may, at any time, examine the policy, administration, and expenditure of an intelligence and security agency, and may report to the House on such an examination.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E9 \tReports of Intelligence and Security Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E(1) \tIn addition to its reports on business considered under Rules 4 to 8, the Intelligence and Security Committee\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E(a) \tpresents an annual report to the House on the activities of the committee:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E(b) \tmay report at any time on a matter relating to intelligence and security that it wishes to draw to the attention of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E(2) \tSubject to the Intelligence and Security Act 2017, Standing Orders 247 to 256 apply to reports of the Intelligence and Security Committee and are to be read as if they were reports of a select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E10 \tConfidential proceedings of Intelligence and Security Committee \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EStanding Orders 115, 390(4) and 396(3), which relate to references to committee proceedings in debate, questions and replies, apply to proceedings of the Intelligence and Security Committee as if it were a select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E11 \tRestriction of select committee briefings and inquiries relating to intelligence and security matters \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EDespite Standing Order 191, no select committee may receive a briefing on, or initiate an inquiry into, matters related to an intelligence and security agency, unless the House approves that briefing or inquiry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E12 \tCopies of records of Intelligence and Security Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E(1) \tSubject to paragraph (2), the Intelligence and Security Committee must provide to the House a copy of all records held by the committee in relation to the performance of its functions under section 193(1)(a) to (d) of the Intelligence and Security Act 2017. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E(2) \tA copy of a record provided under paragraph (1) must be provided only after protected I\tinformation is removed in accordance with the Intelligence and Security Act 2017.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E(3) \tA copy of a record provided under this rule is maintained in the custody of the Clerk as a record belonging to the House. Standing Orders 11 and 12 apply and are to be read accordingly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022e9433826c343443d8de71d420a480eda\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e9433826c343443d8de71d420a480eda\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Can we just ask people to leave the House silently, without conversations on the way. There is no debate. It\u2019s been a Business Committee decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022eede30342d2346529246ea2611f1bbc9\u0022\u003EIntelligence and Security Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bd4ad0357d8d45edba0e1deef69e6fb1\u0022\u003EMembership\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u002250838ae955594ea0b666baecc61e051a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250838ae955594ea0b666baecc61e051a\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Leader of the House)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Prime Minister: I move, That under section 196 of the Intelligence and Security Act 2017, this House endorse the following as members of the Intelligence and Security Committee: Hon Priyanca Radhakrishnan and Teanau Tuiono, nominated by the Leader of the Opposition under section 194(2)(c) of the Act; and Rt Hon Winston Peters, Hon Brooke van Velden, and Hon Judith Collins, nominated by the Prime Minister under section 194(2)(d) of the Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThis is a standard motion at the start of the new Parliament. I\u2019m moving it on behalf of the Prime Minister, obviously, to appoint the various members of the Intelligence and Security Committee pursuant to the Intelligence and Security Act 2017. In addition to the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition, the committee will consist of the Hon Priyanca Radhakrishnan and Teanau Tuiono, on behalf of the Opposition, nominated by the Leader of the Opposition under section 194(2)(c) of the Act; and also the Rt Hon Winston Peters, Deputy Prime Minister; the Hon Brooke van Velden, on behalf of the ACT Party; and the Hon Judith Collins, nominated by the Prime Minister under the relevant section of the Act. This is just a procedural motion to set up the committee for the new Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221db253f664c5498f82d697ba07df5c58\u0022\u003ESocial Security (Benefits Adjustment) and Income Tax (Minimum Family Tax Credit) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002260ac949cbb544c868351661411421e96\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022dbea23dbce5240e593a05b608bc820d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dbea23dbce5240e593a05b608bc820d0\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I move, That the Social Security (Benefits Adjustment) and Income Tax (Minimum Family Tax Credit) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EMadam Speaker and the House, I appreciate that sections of this bill were progressed under urgency last week, so I do want to put my thanks on record for the House\u2019s consideration during this time. I would also like to put on record my thanks to the officials who have worked incredibly hard to ensure that we were able to deliver this legislation within time frames. The time frames are important because it means that the changes that we are legislating for today come into effect on 1\u00A0April 2024.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EAs I said, it is a simple bill that returns the indexation of main benefits to inflation, while making other required consequential amendments. This change prioritises fiscal sustainability, the real incomes of beneficiaries, and work incentives, reflecting this Government\u2019s belief that a job is the best way for New Zealanders to get ahead. Employment enhances mental health, develops self-esteem, and strengthens communities. In turn, this bill will help to achieve these outcomes while also promoting the ongoing health of the income support system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003ESo, for those who have just been tuning in to this debate now, I wanted to go through what those changes are, to be clear, because, as a result of some of the debate in earlier stages, members of the public may have thought this was an isolated policy that had impacts that the Opposition would like you to propose. The reality is that this Government, the coalition Government, is very much focused on improving the lives of New Zealanders\u2014those on welfare as well as those in work\u2014and, more importantly, to reduce the number of children in benefit-dependent households.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003ESo let me go through the changes. The bill amends the Social Security Act 2018 to ensure that income support responds to the increases in the cost of living by indexing main benefits to changes in the Consumers Price Index (CPI). This is the method that has been used for 31 of the last 35 years, so it is not a new change; it is returning to a method that Governments of both sides of the House have utilised in more years than not. This change will revert the amendment, made by the previous Government in 2019, to index main benefits to net average wage growth. In line with this change to the rate of indexation, the bill also amends the Income Tax Act 2007 to adjust the minimum family tax credit threshold to ensure that it remains aligned with changes to the rate of main benefit. This is done very deliberately to ensure that low-income working families remain better off financially in full-time work than they would on a main benefit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EThe changes will protect the real incomes of benefit recipients and low-income working families in the years to come, while also ensuring the costs associated with the benefit system remain sustainable and manageable in the long term. As I\u2019ve said in this House, it is important that we balance the needs of those who are working New Zealanders whose taxes are contributing to the welfare system, as well as those who are in receipt and supported by the benefit system. In the short term, New Zealanders who are enduring the cost of living crisis\u2014and we do know that it is hardest hitting those on low incomes\u2014can expect that their main benefit rates will remain broadly similar. Over the longer term, New Zealand will gain from savings in benefit expenditure, while benefit recipients retain a consistent level of real financial resources\u2014a simple way to put this is that it protects their purchasing power.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EMaking this simple change forms part of our Government\u2019s wider commitment to prudent financial management, and it\u2019s been progressed, in part\u2014not this part today\u2014under urgency, to ensure that the rate of main benefits reflect inflation, as I said earlier, when the indexation occurs and takes effect from 1 April 2024.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EEasing the cost of living crisis is also a priority for our Government, and we know, from many people that we speak to on a regular basis, that the cost of living is really hurting New Zealanders and that is why it is a number one priority of our Government. The lower than forecast CPI figure for the year ending December 2023 shows that inflation is slowing, but it still remains currently outside the Reserve Bank target range of 1 to 3 percent. It clearly shows that there is more work to do, and our Government is committed to returning within the target range and easing cost of living pressures for all New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003ESome of the measures our Government is committed to taking include providing income tax relief, increasing tax credits for working households, and introducing a new childcare tax credit, as well as reducing taxes on petrol. All of these measures will help to address the cost of living pressures. As I have said in previous contributions in this House and in this debate, it is not just one measure that we need to take, not just one policy, but a suite of many\u2014many of which we are delivering in the first hundred days. That shows the New Zealand public that the coalition Government is delivering on its promises. We are delivering on the priority areas that they set and we campaigned on during the election period. So this simple bill that returns the indexation of main benefits to inflation is an important step in the suite of changes we are making as a Government, and, as such, I commend the Social Security (Benefits Adjustment) and Income Tax (Minimum Family Tax Credit) Amendment Bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8bc389eab254294a6223d63865c87ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8bc389eab254294a6223d63865c87ab\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u00223b9c5b37a6024230be6396aa0357c7ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b9c5b37a6024230be6396aa0357c7ac\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Labour\u2014Kelston):\u003C/span\u003E I was just reflecting on what the first hundred days of policy for any new Government should look like, and thinking back to our time when we first got in in 2017 and how aspirational and ambitious we were for New Zealand, and how our immediate priority was the lowest and middle income New Zealanders, compared to what we see now\u2014and it is worth comparing. Back then, for our first hundred days, we had the Families Package introduced, we saw the winter energy payment and the Best Start payment introduced for the first time, we extended paid parental leave, we had the Healthy Homes Guarantee Bill setting minimum standards for rentals. We did things like ban overseas speculators buying New Zealand houses, we stopped the sell-off of State housing, we lifted the minimum wage for our lowest-income workers. And what do we have here in the first hundred days? Sadly, we have a Government that is taking $670 million from the poorest New Zealanders to pay for their tax cuts. I said it a number of times in the House: they should be ashamed of themselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EOver the course of our six years, we were very considered and deliberate when it came to welfare policy. We set up an expert welfare advisory group that traversed many of the sectors that should have an input into what a welfare system looks like. It had New Zealand businesses, it had unions, it had the social sector, it had beneficiary advocates, it had young people, it had M\u0101ori, it had Pacific. They gave the advice on what our welfare should look like, but the fundamental element of what the welfare system should look like is that anyone who accesses it should have their dignity upheld. Well, this bill does not uphold their dignity, and we\u2019ve traversed all of the arguments for why that is the case. Any Government that can receive a supplementary analysis report on a bill where the report states very clearly that more children will be in poverty as a result of their actions should be ashamed of themselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not just this bill. The Minister put on record that she believes the suite of measures that they are introducing are going to actually be conducive to reducing child poverty in this country. Well, where is the evidence to back that up? We\u2019ve already seen the report on this bill. We already know that excessive sanctions drive families into poverty, not lift them out, and yet those are the two measures that we have heard from. But it is predictable. It\u2019s predictable. It\u2019s taken out of the playbook of every National Government that has come before this one. It\u2019s d\u00E9j\u00E0 vu. It is the playbook of Jim Bolger. It is the playbook of John Key. It is the playbook of Robert Muldoon. It is the playbook of every National leader that has ever gone before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc5c1992c9db4e10af320cf99c828949\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t forget Ruth Richardson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a8e367d79c34586be84630a57e4eefe\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI\u003C/span\u003E: Ruth Richardson\u2014she wasn\u2019t a leader, but she made some horrible changes that were detrimental. And I want to speak about Ruth Richardson\u2019s changes, actually. We only just made moves in recent years, by significantly increasing benefits, to reverse the benefit cuts of the 1990s that the National Government and Ruth Richardson were responsible for then, and here we have a National Government that are taking us backwards again. And we will end up in the same situation. Ten years from now, if no change occurs to fix this indexation mistake, then what we\u2019ll have are benefits falling further and further behind. We\u2019ll have more children living in poverty. The scary thing is they were told that this was the case but they have made the decision, as a coalition Government, to go ahead with it anyway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThe rhetoric is predictable. We\u2019ve heard, even just in the state of the nation speech, the priority given to focusing on being tougher on beneficiaries. Well, it\u2019s not anything of use to New Zealand or anything that should be a priority to New Zealand. What it is is bullying. It is bullying from that side of the House and deliberate distraction tactics\u2014move people\u2019s attention away from what they should be focused on, put their attention on the poorest New Zealanders, as if they are to blame, they are the villain when it comes to any of the challenges that we are facing as a country, when, actually, in reality, we know that they are falling victim to the challenges more than anyone else in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EOver the course of the campaign and whilst this Government have been in office, we have heard them say, over and over again, it\u2019s about the cost of living, focused on the cost of living for New Zealanders, but they seem to forget that our lowest-income New Zealanders, including, of course, our beneficiaries, are also New Zealanders. So, focused on the cost of living for their mates that are New Zealanders but not focused on the cost of living for the most vulnerable New Zealanders. For that, I say it again\u2014and I can\u2019t say it too many times\u2014that side should be ashamed; ashamed, also, of the polarisation that we are seeing of people in our welfare system. Rather than putting the ladder out and assisting people with climbing up, rather than putting opportunities in place so that they can actually move up, get the skills that they need, they are taking the ladder away again and kicking people who are vulnerable while they\u2019re down. Again, for that, they should be ashamed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EBeneficiaries, inevitably, because of this change, are going to end up with less money in their pockets. Initially when they did the analysis, they thought they might be marginally better off this year, but we\u2019ve since heard the net average wage growth numbers and now we know that, actually, there\u2019s not even any gain this year. Every year, over the forecast period, beneficiaries fall behind because of that Government\u2019s decision to take $670 million off the poorest New Zealanders to pay for tax cuts. That is the reality of this particular change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve talked a lot in the House about child poverty and who will be impacted, but I also just want to touch on and dig a little bit deeper on who specifically lives in those houses. Disabled children and children with a disabled family member in their household are more likely to be living in benefit households. Women make up 55 percent of all beneficiaries; 80 percent of those on sole parent benefit are women. M\u0101ori and Pacific are going to be disproportionately impacted by this change, and yet the Government have no shame or no remorse about the fact that they have made this very conscious decision. We\u2019ve stood here in the House and we have quoted all the experts, including former Children\u2019s Commissioner Judge Andrew Becroft, who said, a few years back, before we\u2019d even made this change, that indexing benefits to wage growth instead of inflation is one of the single most significant things we could do to address child poverty in this country. They have ignored that particular expert and every other expert that has come out in favour of wage growth being the measure for adjustments, not inflation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003ESo when that side of the House stands up in any room and says that they want to be an evidence-based Government, that they will make decisions based on evidence, then I just say \u201CBaloney.\u201D, actually. It is not true, and every decision that they have made to date is questionable, because the evidence runs contrary to the arguments, the ideology, and the policies that they are putting forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EWe will continue to fight these types of legislation in the House. We will continue to take the information that the public deserves to see out to the public so that they understand the detrimental impacts of the policy that that Government is introducing. We of course are not going to be supporting this bill in the House, nor will we be supporting the beneficiary-bashing narrative that that side continues to run. They do not have New Zealand\u2019s best interests at heart, because if they did, they would be making sure that child poverty reduction was a priority, not putting it on the back seat and not agreeing to policies that are only going to increase the number of children living in poverty in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022645f1770b8d44a8c839c953fe626dd47\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022645f1770b8d44a8c839c953fe626dd47\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. If we cut through the waffle of what we heard from the Minister, and see through the advice and the evidence, this is a bill that will increase poverty. Our communities are served better than a Minister who doesn\u2019t actually understand the welfare system she\u2019s been put in charge of running, because she is completely ignoring the fact that this is a bill that will see lower increases to benefits over the medium term, that will see disabled people disproportionately affected. The cumulative losses will result in disabled people being over $2,000 worse off than they would have been if we kept things as they are in four years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ESo when the Minister stands up and talks about the short-term impacts, that\u2019s incredibly indicative of a Government that doesn\u2019t think of future generations and only thinks about the short-term gains at the expense of rising poverty, of rising inequality, and rising hardship in our communities. The Minister, at no point, has been able to be up front and clear about the impacts that this bill will have in the medium term. She talks about the other\u2014on the one hand, she says she\u2019s going to increase poverty, and she admits that this will increase poverty; then she says she\u2019s going to have other interventions in place to mitigate that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EBut what are those interventions? So far, she keeps talking about tax relief that will disproportionately benefit those on the highest incomes. She\u2019s taking away from the people who are doing it the toughest to put in place tax relief that will benefit those that are already living comfortably. This is a Government that will therefore increase inequality. She missed opportunities to actually support families into work. We put in place amendments that would have better supported families entering employment. The Minister was not interested. During the debate, when we tried to unpack what actions she was actually going to take to support people transitioning from a benefit into employment, there was nothing. So, sure, she talks about the other interventions she wishes to make to mitigate the reality that this bill will increase poverty, and there are none that she can actually back up with evidence, that will actually alleviate hardship. And even if she had other interventions in place, you don\u2019t actually end poverty in the country by making it worse for some people and less worse for another, because we have to remember that the people who she\u2019s choosing to scapegoat, the people who she\u2019s choosing to dehumanise, are going to suffer as a result of this piece of legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EAll at the same time, the savings that she claims she will make by reducing benefit increases will be passed on to more people needing hardship grants just to make ends meet. All that she is doing, actually, is that she will be passing the buck to front-line Work and Income staff members, who will then have to deliver more hardship grants because people will be worse off. Then, when she says the quiet part out loud, about what this bill is supposed to do, which is to actually widen the gap between what people earn on a benefit and those in unemployment, she ignores the fact that affects people who may be losing a job, and may be needing support to get by, because when you actually have a wider gap between benefit levels and employment, you, effectively, scar the wages of people who are put in a situation where they\u2019re living below the poverty line, and then they are put in a desperate situation where they have to accept jobs in the short term that may pay less, that may have nothing to do with their qualifications. So this bill, effectively, by widening the gap between working people and those who are out of paid employment, is punishing people who want to go into work. It is, effectively, going to increase the wage gap\u2014both the gender and ethnic wage gap\u2014and it is going to contribute to low wages.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ESo let\u2019s make it really clear. This bill will affect people\u2014in a negative way\u2014who are trying to get into paid employment. When she talks, in her absolutely ableist language, about \u201Cif people can work, they should\u201D, she forgets the fact that some of the people who she is punishing the most in this bill are people who are not in a position to enter employment, because they have really serious medical conditions; people who are disabled and are not able to work, who they themselves\u2014because, actually, we shouldn\u2019t need medical certificates for people\u2019s lived experiences to be taken seriously. But the people who have told us that they\u2019re not in a position, because of their disability, or because they may be experiencing severe health conditions, those are the people who are going to be punished the most by this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ESo let\u2019s cut the BS from the Minister and actually accept that this is a bill that will punish disabled people the hardest. The people who she thinks can simply go to Work and Income and get a job, despite, for example, having a cancer diagnosis, and not being in a position to do so, those are the people she is punishing the most. When it comes to families with children who are going to be affected by lower benefit increases, what does she think will happen to the children when you put a household into further hardship? You\u2019re condemning the children in those households to poor health and education outcomes, effectively creating long-term and possibly intergenerational harm; the harm that lower benefit increases cause as a result of this bill is long term. The harm that we do in the weeks that people may be experiencing\u2014or months that people may be experiencing on those benefits\u2014has profound year- and generational-long impacts, because if a family is not able to actually meet the cost of rent as a result of poverty levels that are set below the poverty lines, they have to move from the area that they\u2019re in to another area, that creates transience for those children. Children cannot afford medication as a result of poverty levels that have been set by this Government. That affects the long-term health of the children impacted by this bill. So the Minister talks about the so-called short-term gains but fails to see the long-term harm that she is causing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EShe can\u2019t conjure high wages and people finding secure work just by demonising beneficiaries and simply talking about it. That\u2019s her focus, as a part of this piece of legislation. Earlier in the House, she could not even substantiate whether those so-called initiatives were to support people into employment. So the goals that the Minister continuously talks about are not backed up by the lived experience of beneficiaries, and will only cause more harm. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI just really wish that the legacy parties understood what is happening right now, which is to actually turn benefit indexation into a political football. The previous Government had a chance to accept my recommendations and amendments to index benefits to wages, or inflation, whichever was higher, to ensure that we guarantee the best and highest possible benefit increases, so that a rising tide supports everyone. We put a similar amendment in this legislation that was not supported by National. There is no interest from the legacy parties to stop the political football on how we increase benefits annually, to just, actually, take into account that we could all rally together to support people having enough to live on, and turn these annual increases into a conversation on what else we need to do, rather than, for example, as the National Party and their coalition partners are doing is: how can we take the most from people on the benefit to fund tax cuts that will disproportionately support wealthy people? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ESo it should not be the case that we put a stake in the ground and say, \u201CWe told you so\u201D, because we have a duty of care for our communities, and right now, we have a duty of care to do everything in our power to fight back against a Government that will increase poverty. But I\u2019ll tell you right now: in four years\u2019 time, what we will see is more families queuing up at Work and Income, needing hardship grants to make ends meet. We will see more families taking up debt, whether it is from loan companies or from advances from the Government, just to survive, as a result of those benefit increases being lower than they would have been otherwise. What the Minister, once again, fails to understand and acknowledge, which will result in these things, is that we\u2019re talking about benefit increases to benefit levels that have already been set below the poverty line by successive Governments. These are not benefits that are livable levels; these are benefits that both sides of the House have decided to set below the poverty line, and then, this Government has decided that we should increase below-the-poverty-line benefits even more slowly\u2014effectively, condemning generations to living below the poverty line.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThe harm that this will cause will be seen by multiple and subsequent reports over the medium term by the Ministry of Social Development (MSD). MSD will show it to the Minister, and the Minister, as she\u2019s shown us through the debate, won\u2019t care, because she didn\u2019t show any consideration to the best available evidence during the bill going through Parliament, and she clearly doesn\u2019t seem to care for the evidence going forward; meaning that the coalition papers around using best data and available evidence is nothing, nothing but lip service, because this is a Government that is running on how to make life hardest on those already struggling to get by. These are the politics of cruelness, and the Green Party won\u2019t stand by them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022 data-id=\u0022b5269b33385d4ecbb9d41382e183796c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b5269b33385d4ecbb9d41382e183796c\u0022\u003EDr PARMJEET PARMAR (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. On behalf of ACT, I\u2019m taking this call to support this bill, the Social Security (Benefits Adjustment) and Income Tax (Minimum Family Tax Credit) Amendment Bill. We are supporting this bill because this bill is ultimately about affordability. I\u2019ve listened to contributions from the Labour Party member and also the Green Party member, and I would say that they have been really interesting contributions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EYes, we acknowledge that arguments can be made both ways. This is about the indexation of benefits to the Consumers Price Index (CPI) or net wage growth, and I want to acknowledge that, yes, it was the Labour Government that indexed benefits to net wage growth because it saw that the wage growth was actually historically growing faster than inflation. But very quickly they realised that inflation actually started growing faster than wages, so there is no silver bullet there. Things change, and inflation grew at a rate that was hurting people. And who was responsible for that kind of increase in inflation? It was the Labour Government. It was because of their irresponsible spending. It was because of the spend, spend, and spend policies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EYes, I do acknowledge that there a lot of factors that we do need to take into consideration when we talk about inflation, but, definitely, the irresponsible spending of the previous Labour Government fuelled inflation. Today those members are standing up and talking as if they really care about people on benefits or on low incomes, but they need to realise that it was the increase in inflation that actually caused more suffering to people on benefits and low incomes. Why didn\u2019t they control their spending at that point, to reduce inflation if they really cared about people\u2014those on benefit and low incomes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EOn this side of the House, we really care about bringing inflation down. If inflation comes down, that is a good thing, because in the last quarter, December 2023, we have seen that inflation has been 4.7 percent. Yes, it has slowed down; it\u2019s not exactly where we want it to be. But we want to see that inflation come under control. And that is actually going to give that financial relief. It\u2019s not about just putting more money in people\u2019s pockets, which doesn\u2019t have that real value that comes with having money in people\u2019s pockets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003ENow, coming to the Green Party member, it\u2019s really interesting to see that the Green Party member thinks that somehow if people stay on benefit rather than going to a job that is a minimum wage job, it is actually a better thing. If people have not been in employment for a number of years, or if they don\u2019t have the experience, if they start a job on minimum wage, what is wrong with that? I ask: what\u2019s wrong with that? There is nothing wrong with that, because they are only going to grow from there. So that is the first step, and we really want people to take that first step\u2014get into employment even if it is minimum wage, because they will only grow from there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EThe other argument I heard from the Green member was that people will be worse off by $2,000-plus if they stay on benefit for four to five years. Why do we want to imagine that somebody will be sitting on benefit for four to five years? That is not the kind of ambition we bring to New Zealanders. We have better aspirations than the Green member, because we really want people to do well. We really want people to get into employment, and this bill is a very simple bill\u2014it is about indexation of benefits to the CPI, which we support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022 data-id=\u0022a6963844abac451da7cda0ebccdc145e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a6963844abac451da7cda0ebccdc145e\u0022\u003ETANYA UNKOVICH (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. On behalf of New Zealand First, I\u2019d like to rise and speak on this bill. I was listening last week to some of the contributions, and some of it painted us on this side as uncaring, saying, \u201CI wonder if any of the people opposite have ever spoken to anyone who\u2019s on a benefit or who has experienced hardship themselves.\u201D Well, as we have heard from many of the maiden statements on this side, many of us have experienced poverty, have lived it, and we know what it tastes, smells, and feels like. So I would like to invite the members opposite to reflect on some of their words when accusing us of being uncaring.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003EOne thing I know is that the coalition is a very caring coalition, and that is why we are going to support this bill. We are caring. We are mothers. We are fathers, sons, and daughters. There is no way that we would not want the people of New Zealand and our country to flourish, which is why we are rejecting many of the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe8ebc3d151940dab10eaeda5ba548a6\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Evidence\u2014the evidence; you\u2019re rejecting the evidence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d93f1570dd644f69afbed3271c0a0e9b\u0022\u003ETANYA UNKOVICH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014words spoken on the other side. Evidence, yes, evidence is great, and in many of the words spoken on the other side, I don\u2019t hear evidence coming; I just hear accusations. Many of us on this side, we all want the same outcome as the members on the opposite side; however, we just have different paths to getting there. That is what we are committed to\u2014we are committed to protecting the people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003ENow, we are not slashing benefits; we\u2019re protecting the benefits and we\u2019re indexing them to inflation. It is about also addressing the culture of welfare dependency that we\u2019ve got in this country, and it is something that seems to be increasing as the years go on and something that this coalition, this Government, is very concerned about. So we are not trying to slash the money coming in; we are protecting their purchasing power, which is why we are indexing to inflation\u2014a policy that has been used for 31 of the previous 35 years, we note. It is, by no means, a polarisation of people. Where is that evidence saying that we are kicking people who are already down? Those are statements made with evidence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003ESo I have been in the helping profession, myself, and I have had many clients come to me, who really want help in getting out of poverty and being able to get back into the workforce. Not everyone wants to stay on a benefit; many want to get out of a repeating pattern and being in a family that is dependent on benefits all the time, which is why New Zealand First is very committed to helping this Government address other issues, such as the cost of living, reducing the tax on the petrol that is affecting the people who are on benefits, who have to get in their car, and who often drive cars which use significantly more amounts of petrol\u2014they are being really hit at the pump there. We are addressing some of those issues, looking at the price of groceries\u2014addressing some of those issues\u2014so that they can, in fact, have more of their money in their pocket. We are not prepared to continue to encourage people to remain on benefit, but to help them with other areas. There are so many other things that people can be looking at. Self-esteem is a big issue here. It is about helping people to become more inclined to want to prosper and not continue to enable them to stay stuck, but helping them to get unstuck.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First is very much a political party of common sense and taking a balanced approach. We would like to support this bill, and are very proud to be doing so. So thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0908b2e6f2a422a8b618cccbcb2b153\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0908b2e6f2a422a8b618cccbcb2b153\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: This is a split call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022 data-id=\u0022867fa8795a2847a88d8ed0db85ec74e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022867fa8795a2847a88d8ed0db85ec74e0\u0022\u003EHon MARAMA DAVIDSON (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E If that previous New Zealand First member, Tanya Unkovich, would in fact have stopped reading her notes and instead read the evidence\u2014and how about reading her own Prime Minister\u2019s state of the nation speech right after she tried to say that we need to improve people\u2019s self-esteem, and this very legislation that is going to deny those on the lowest incomes more income? This very legislation and the very state of the nation speech that we just heard over the weekend from her Prime Minister is doing the opposite of improving the self-esteem of people who are struggling the most, and is why we will not only be opposing, and are opposing, this legislation, which seeks to tag income support to inflation instead of wages because that ensures that they receive less money, we are opposing this legislation and the hateful rhetoric that comes with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EWe saw the Minister in charge of this legislation, the Hon Louise Upston, repeating again in the House today\u2014we saw her talking and using the language of people \u201Clanguishing\u201D on a jobseeker benefit. Now, what is that supposed to say about people who are trying their very best; trying their very best to care for their children, their families, their community; who know that the best thing that they can do with very little is try their best? But this Government\u2014including that speaker who just sat down from New Zealand First, the Prime Minister, and the Minister in charge of this legislation\u2014are dehumanising and stigmatising all people who receive a benefit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EWith all of their language, they continue to talk about welfare dependency. Guess who is dependent on the current economic status in this country! People like the 311 families who together mass $85 billion collectively without being fairly taxed. We want to talk about dependency and tough choices? How about making the tough choice to lift all families out of poverty instead of ensuring that those families with more than enough\u2014more than enough; more than they could ever want or need\u2014continue to be disproportionately impacted positively by this very legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EThe Minister tried to say that, \u201COh, yes, this legislation on its own will in fact create more children in poverty.\u201D So even she admits that. Can I just direct that to that previous speaker? Even the Minister has said, \u201CYes, this legislation, on its own, will indeed cause more poverty.\u201D And then she tries to say, \u201CBut with the tax cuts, that is what is going to help.\u201D I would like to know exactly how many families who are struggling the most will be lifted out of poverty by those so-called tax cuts and how many families who are already dependent on the current unfair tax system are going to amass incredibly more wealth. That is the dependency that this House should be talking about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EIn my previous speeches, I have highlighted that if this Government was serious about wanting to know how to ensure people can live decent lives, the aim alone isn\u2019t just to remove people off a benefit\u2014people who are receiving income support\u2014the aim should be for people to live decent lives. There was a lot of work put into a report called the Welfare Expert Advisory Group. If that member who just sat down is concerned about evidence and research and work, the whole report for that member to read in her spare time, an entire report with the likes of\u2014and I\u2019ll repeat this again\u2014Phil O\u2019Reilly, previous chief executive of the Business New Zealand roundtable, who sat before people who are struggling, and who came to the conclusion that all of the research said they are not receiving enough; they are not receiving support to actually improve their lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003ESo the Greens have always posed a way and a political decision that can and should be made to ensure all families are lifted out of poverty; that we can end poverty for all families by making sure they are receiving adequate income to live decent lives. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022 data-id=\u00223c2d6cf34ddf421ca98f96496bb67698\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c2d6cf34ddf421ca98f96496bb67698\u0022\u003ETAKUTAI TARSH KEMP (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014T\u0101maki Makaurau):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou e te Whare. Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori oppose this bill. The reality is that this Government continues to push their kaupapa of poor policy on to our people\u2014policy that will punish our wh\u0101nau. No one wants to live on \u201CP\u014Dhara Street\u201D. M\u0101ori have dreams and aspirations. Workers want fair pay. Wh\u0101nau hau\u0101 want the right to live with dignity and respect. This Government continues to show they have no ng\u0101kau for our people. They are anti-M\u0101ori, anti - workers\u2019 rights, anti-disability, and anti-beneficiaries. They are all our wh\u0101nau. It\u2019s a blitz on M\u0101ori. M\u0101ori will bear the brunt, and we know, though, that the impact will hit and hurt our mokopuna the most.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022\u003EThe state of our community is dire. The hustle is real for our wh\u0101nau out on the streets, and I encourage, like I did in my last call, any members to come out into our communities to see firsthand what it is like and what it will continue to be like for front liners in our community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022\u003EThis Government is continuing to give tax cuts to higher-income earners but taking income away from the lowest earners. It\u2019s disgraceful, it\u2019s shameful, and our people will continue to be hurt by this. So I want to mihi to all the iwi and M\u0101ori partners out in our communities, especially those in T\u0101maki-makau-rau who are going to feel the brunt and face the frustration of our wh\u0101nau all day, every day. There\u2019s going to be increased wh\u0101nau continuing to line up at our food banks, and increased wh\u0101nau turning up at our marae requiring hardship grants. There is no way that they are not going to be turning up and wanting less support; it\u2019s going to be the opposite. And it\u2019s our wh\u0101nau on the front line\u2014those marae, those M\u0101ori partners, Wh\u0101nau Ora providers\u2014that are actually going to feel the brunt of this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022\u003ESo to this Government, I encourage you to increase the funding to those providers and partners, because they have to deal with what you are taking away from our people. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022 data-id=\u0022d90b076c157447bdbcf81935c2f6dc31\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d90b076c157447bdbcf81935c2f6dc31\u0022\u003EPAULO GARCIA (National\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E The debate that we have this afternoon is not really a debate about people who have worked hard and done well, it\u2019s not about people who may have had their forefathers work hard and do well; it is about people who are not doing too well right now. And what the Government wants to do is to make the main benefit more predictable, more transparent, more easily administered. It is to produce a long-term aim of a proper safety net for all New Zealanders, regardless of who you are or what your circumstances are\u2014that the benefit will come at pace with the increase in cost of living and the cost of goods and services. So, with the increase in costs and services that we are experiencing at the moment, it is clearly a good idea to index the main benefit to inflation, which is what we are doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003EThe bill has two objectives. It is really to provide Government with more control over its spending, which, unfortunately, we have seen over the past years that spending in a manner that is not sustainable over time\u2014it\u2019s not good for everybody. Secondly, we are also wanting to ensure that beneficiaries are able to see their way forward by understanding and counting on a predictable main benefit that they will be receiving.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003EWe support the family tax credit also in such a way that low-income working families remain better off financially in full-time work than they would be if they were on the main benefit. It is a tried and tested, very known fact that when young people are trying to get ahead, instead of being provided everything that they might want at that point in time or might need at that point in time, it is good for them to be able to aspire and push themselves harder and get ahead. So that is what this side of the House wishes to do with this bill: to push people to achieve more and not have that balance of receiving a main benefit that is such that it disincentivises them from trying harder and getting up and putting their shoes on and getting out there and working harder.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003EAlso, the members opposite raise that the benefits will eventually have the effect of dropping by 2028, four years later, and then the picture is painted about when that happens, but we would like for others to understand, especially the ones who watch this debate, that that would mean if the main benefit is indexed on cost of living, then the cost of living would have also gone down. I commend this bill to this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u00220e095fbcf5f244d493f248b7d24bbd0f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e095fbcf5f244d493f248b7d24bbd0f\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I wanted to start with a quote that\u2019s often attributed to Mahatma Gandhi that the measure of a society is how it treats its weakest members\u2014the measure of a society is how it treats its weakest members. Actually, as it turns out, although the great Mahatma Gandhi said that, it\u2019s also attributed to Hubert Humphrey, who was Vice President of the United States from about 1965 to 1969; a Democratic Vice President and obviously with liberal\u2014classic, small L liberal\u2014thinking; lost a bit today. But coming out of the United States at around about the time when John Rawls was assembling and compiling his magnum opus, A Theory of Justice, published in 1971. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275a890782bfe4a1abe1ee7ede2a187d6\u0022\u003EDan Bidois\u003C/span\u003E: What does this have to do with the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228999ea24daf6426e8f166d8839ee3c88\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: And it\u2019s a remarkable book. You should read it\u2014go ahead and read it, Dan. It\u2019s a remarkable book, because what it does\u2014it became one of the seminal works of political philosophy in the 20th century, and it had a great deal to say about the type of society we want to live in. Rawls went through a rigorous process of working out how we might set up such a society and came up with a series of propositions. Central to his thinking was the thinking that in terms of the way we set up our society, we would set it up in such a way that we would ensure that our decisions benefited the least well off. That as we were making decisions, that was the yardstick: how would it affect the least well off?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, that particular book really did become the work of political philosophy in the 20th century, and most of the other works in the later part of the 20th century responded to it. But no one really turned that over\u2014that proposition that as we set up our societies, our concern is for everyone. But when we are making our decisions, we must measure them by the impact on the least well off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI do want to refer to another great thinker of the 20th century as well, and of the 21st century: Amartya Sen, who won the Nobel Prize for economics in 1998 and is still working in this space. Now, Amartya Sen is famous for what he calls the capabilities approach\u2014the approach that we try to ensure that each citizen, each person, is able to live according to their capabilities. And that, as Governments, our obligation is to ensure that people are able to live according to their capabilities. Unsurprisingly, he did think about all sorts of issues to do with distributive justice. One of the things that he said and that he argued is that being poor in a rich society in itself is a capability handicap. That the gap between the rich and the poor has a negative effect on people\u2019s capabilities because, as the society becomes richer, people who have less are less able to participate in that society.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EWhat I have given here is a whole series of thinking about what we ought to be doing in order to enhance the lives of everyone in our communities\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022572710027395423482db43a6f2934927\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: And it\u2019s going to relate to the bill in some way soon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7a8b542fbae4bae80d37f8b07256dbb\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and I think it\u2019s\u2014indeed, it is relevant to the bill because it is about how we ensure that people in our society have enough to live on. It doesn\u2019t come out of some sort of weird nowhere land; it comes out of some of the great thinking of the 20th and the 21st centuries that we must have an adequate welfare system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, of course, in recent years, we have had a huge problem with inflation in New Zealand and worldwide\u2014an inflation problem that has been caused by a global pandemic, that has been caused by the war in Ukraine, that is being affected now by the war in Gaza, that all these external events have affected inflation worldwide. In many respects, it doesn\u2019t really matter what has caused the inflation; what matters is what Governments do to deal with it and to enable people to live through it. One of the decisions we took as a Government was to try to ensure that benefit levels were raised to a sufficient level to enable people to survive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EBut there\u2019s some really interesting wrinkles around inflation, because it impacts different groups in societies differently. And there\u2019s some really clear economic research that shows that lower-income people are more affected by inflation. Now, this is absolutely standard research that the inflation that the members of this House experience is not as bad as the inflation that people on lower incomes experience. That while the average inflation rate in this country might be\u2014I\u2019m sorry, I can\u2019t recall exactly what it is at the moment\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad9f665335d0459bb7081edfd6ca9473\u0022\u003EDan Bidois\u003C/span\u003E: 4.7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae6d72c5769a427597336f4dc94443d4\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Dan\u20144.7 percent. Lower-income households will be experiencing a higher rate of inflation because of the basket of goods and services that they actually purchase.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI\u2019m going to quote here from MoneyHub, who\u2019ve been assembling the research on this. Now, this is an organisation that sets out to enable people to learn how to deal with inflation. They say that inflation is particularly painful for low-income households where the percentage of post-tax disposable income spent on essentials like food and petrol continues to increase, while wages typically stay the same. As a result, higher essential costs mean less cash left over at the end of the month while continuing to try to buy the same groceries. Additionally, lower-income households have significantly fewer savings and investments than higher-income households, meaning that these households have less cushion against rising costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EWhat this bill does is it means that people in benefit-dependant households will have less than they would overwise have had in order to deal with the cost of living. Now, when we were in Government, we worked hard to increase the level of benefits to ensure that people living in benefit-dependant households could participate in our society, could enhance their capabilities, could be part of our society. This bill works against that. This bill means that less money ends up in the pockets of the poorest New Zealanders. This bill positively goes against all the thinking behind why we have a welfare State in the first place, which is to ensure that every citizen\u2014that every citizen\u2014can participate in our society.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EIt gets even worse than that because, as is sitting in the impact analysis that was prepared by social welfare that was brought to the House by this Minister, the impact is going to be greater on disabled households where people are on benefit because they have disabilities. Now, these are not people who can go out and find a job. These are not people who can put on their shoes in the morning and go out and find a job. Now, of course, many people with disabilities can and do work, but part of the reason that many people are on benefit is because they have chronic illnesses or disabilities that mean they cannot work, and this bill will mean that they have less money in their pockets for reasons beyond their control. So there\u2019s a really significant impact there on households with disabilities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EWe have listened to many fine speeches in this House over the last few weeks as our new members have talked about their values, their beliefs, and why they have come to this House. Many of them have expressed values coming from the Christian faith they profess. I would like to see that faith expressed in action, not just words. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u0022fab4b695006b4ddb929073294398e800\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fab4b695006b4ddb929073294398e800\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I rise to speak this afternoon on the Social Security (Benefits Adjustment) and Income Tax (Minimum Family Tax Credit) Amendment Bill for its third reading, and it will soon become law. I\u2019m going to make a short contribution because this is really fairly short in terms of the important points that are made here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EPart 1 of this bill reverses changes made by Labour to index benefits to wage growth and replace it with a standard practice\u2014a standard practice\u2014followed by successive Governments. In fact, for 31 of the last 35 years, this practice has been used to index benefits to CPI inflation changes. This is at a time of high inflation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EI have been hearing some interesting speeches from the opposite side of the House this afternoon, accusing the coalition Government of all sorts of things; ignoring the fact that past left-wing Governments have done exactly the same thing over the last 31 years. So if they are to say this is a reflection on the coalition Government, it\u2019s a reflection on their own practice of the last 31 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ELook, the reality is that we\u2019re at a time of high inflation. This is to index benefits to CPI\u2014so that is, to inflation. This is a fairer mechanism, we think, for those lower-income people. I heard the speech before that said lower-income people are more affected by inflation\u2014absolutely\u2014based on the vast amount of goods and services that they purchase. So that\u2019s absolutely correct. We\u2019re at a time of higher inflation, therefore those goods and services\u2014particularly food, electricity, etc.\u2014that people need, this inflation affects lower-income people more. So this is indexing these benefits to the CPI\u2014to inflation. So this is going to assist, rather than what the Opposition is claiming.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThe other part of this bill that I need to speak to is that it\u2019s a relatively minor change but it increases the prescribed amount from $34,216 to $35,204. So that\u2019s an increase and that is used in the formula that determines the minimum family tax credit that a person is entitled to. So the minimum family tax credit provides a financial incentive to ensure low-income working families remain better off financially in full-time work than they would be on a main benefit, and that\u2019s important. We want to ensure that families who are working hard, trying to get ahead to provide for their families\u2014and provide, I think, the mana that comes from work as well, for those who are able to do that. It does increase that sense of personal mana for those who are able to do it, and that\u2019s something we want to encourage and also it\u2019s something they can show to their children, who follow after them, a pathway forward, rather than being stuck on benefit dependency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ELook, benefits are there for those who need it. We totally support that, but we also want to make sure that people who can work are able to work, and we incentivise them to do that. So that is the ultimate way they could provide best for themselves and their families. With that, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002215cecd5cec874413a7dc718e602c86c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002215cecd5cec874413a7dc718e602c86c5\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Barbara Edmonds\u2014this is a split call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u00226f3e38e4481b4a2d8d7c9af2e65b531f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f3e38e4481b4a2d8d7c9af2e65b531f\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker, for the opportunity to speak on what is a very sad day for this House, with a bill that is going to be taking from the poorest New Zealanders to pay for tax cuts. That is morally reprehensible. Let me try and rephrase that: taking from the poorest New Zealanders to pay for tax cuts is morally reprehensible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve heard members on the other side of the House try to justify why they believe that changing this back means that people will be better off. I\u2019ve just heard it with the other side saying, \u201CThey\u2019ll get money.\u201D The problem is that with this bill, they\u2019re actually going to get less money in the long run. When the Children\u2019s Commissioner says that this is the one thing that we could do to help child poverty, it is time for our Parliament to listen to it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EI have been brought up in a benefit-dependent household. It wasn\u2019t my father\u2019s fault that my mother got cancer at the age of 35 and that he was a widower at the age of 40 with four children under the age of 11. We were brought up on the unemployment benefit because of reasons totally outside of our control. Children brought up in poverty need support. Children brought up in poverty need to know that they are going to have food in their tummies. Children brought up in poverty need to be able to have a safe home.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003EThese are the poorest New Zealanders\u2014the poorest. And yet that side of the House absolutely finds it, I believe, heartless, and applauds this. Find some other way to pay for those large tax cuts and those promises that you\u2019ve made. Find some other way. Find them through other mechanisms of revenue raising, but instead you want to take the money which may help our poorest New Zealanders. Listen to yourselves. This is what our country is coming to, where money is going to be taken from children who are already living in poverty in a cost of living crisis in order to pay for tax cuts. Find another way. Because you know what? These children that are going to bed tonight\u2014the child that I was at four who lost her mother to cancer\u2014deserve better. We deserve support. We deserve a chance to make it better in our lives, not for a Government to come and take away the crumbs, the absolute smallest things that can make a difference to our lives. So I implore that Government: find another way; if not, absolutely heartless. I do not commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u00228fcf4461fa754c22bc46cc3b91b962cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228fcf4461fa754c22bc46cc3b91b962cc\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a pleasure to rise and take a call on a bill that allows the benefits to increase by the Consumers Price Index (CPI) as opposed to wage growth. I have some comments for Barbara Edmonds, the new Opposition spokesperson on finance, around finance. The first is that it\u2019s not beneficiaries\u2019 tax money; it\u2019s actually hard-working New Zealanders\u2019 tax money and it is being given to beneficiaries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EThe second thing that I\u2019d like to say to the member is that there were 70,000 extra people on a jobseeker benefit under the last six years of that Government, and any person who is taking on the finance portfolio for Labour needs to know how much that costs the State: $1 billion extra a year. That is how much damage that that Government did in office, and that\u2019s what we\u2019ve got to turn around today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EI want to also pick up on another comment from the Green Party around the impact of this bill, which was that it will make the gap between beneficiaries and those in work even worse. I say to the member Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March that, in fact, the best way to reduce that gap is to get people who are on a benefit into work, and that is our challenge and that\u2019s our opportunity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EBut we have traversed this topic a lot in the House in the last few weeks. We\u2019ve traversed this topic a lot in the last year, in the election campaign, which that side of the House lost overwhelmingly. They lost their seats to large majorities from this side of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EI do want to come to what I believe is the core matter for this bill, which is the type of country that we want to live in in the future. Now, we want a country where there is a social safety net\u2014yes\u2014and, actually, I think all sides of this House can agree on our having a social safety net. But I believe that the future we want for our country is a future where people live independently, live happy, healthy, productive lives, and they understand the value and the dignity of work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EThat is the main way that people can get ahead for themselves for their families\u2014and, actually, don\u2019t trust me; trust the evidence, as Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick used to say. The evidence is that those in work have better mental health\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299325fec55144884b82b50f069f3dce1\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Yep. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efd1cf57ccc747eab81ce609da82b13a\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014yes?\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdab9423ca724cdbaf5536ffd11e7687\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Yep. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bef5b6d5480d446e8bf049b8e20a7299\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014have more productive capacity, and have better wellbeing, and so that\u2019s exactly what we have in this bill. We want to have a case of actually improving benefits modestly by the inflation rate\u2014which, by the way, I have to remind the other side of the House that it\u2019s 4.7 percent. Maybe if they had known how much inflation was, they might have done better in the last election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EOur 100-day plan is to, in fact, start a journey to reverse the terrible trend that we\u2019ve been on for the past six years, to restore the dignity of work, and to make sure we get those 70,000 extra people on a jobseeker benefit into work so that they can get ahead for themselves and their families. That is what I think we all want in this House, and that is the challenge before us as a Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003ENow, I do want to just touch on what a member said, which was that we were taking us back to Ruth Richardson\u2019s cuts. Now, I\u2019m no person of history, but Ruth Richardson actually cut the benefits, and we are not cutting. For those that are watching at home, we are increasing benefits by the CPI. That actually keeps the purchasing power for those who are on a benefit\u2014it protects that, OK? So if you\u2019re watching from home and you\u2019re on a benefit, we are not cutting your benefit. It is a pleasure to commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u00223d020dbd5d4c4727942170317f236e27\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d020dbd5d4c4727942170317f236e27\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Today is a shameful day, and I\u2019m reminded of the reasons why I came to this House in the first place and why I\u2019ve been a supporter of the Labour Party since the 1990s, and that \u201Cmother of all Budgets\u201D that the previous member, Dan Bidois, referred to. I want to begin by telling a couple of stories that I think get to the heart of this matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EAround 20 years ago, a friend of mine living in Auckland\u2014his marriage ended. He was around 60 years of age. It was his second relationship. He had three young children; some of whom were primary school age. His wife left him for someone else. He worked in IT, and he lived out in West Auckland and had to travel long distances into Auckland City in order to get to his job. Now, he had young children, including one who was not at school. He had to leave his job and go on the benefit. It was under the fifth Labour Government. I remember him telling me what happened when he went into Work and Income. The Work and Income officer said, \u201CYour job is to raise your children.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThe previous member talked about work. Childcare\u2014raising children\u2014is work. Changing nappies, doing washing, all of those things are work. And it\u2019s particularly women and solo mums who do this kind of work. For those women to be discriminated against through some of these changes\u2014and it\u2019s their children who will suffer and it\u2019s their families who will suffer\u2014and I think for us to say that that isn\u2019t work really undermines the contribution that single parents make to society.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThe other story I want to talk about is my best friend in Nelson, who is a single parent. She left a violent relationship to, basically, save the lives of her small children. The police said to me that this particular person was number one on their watch-list for family violence offenders in Nelson\u2014I have no doubt that her children\u2019s lives were at risk. I remember\u2014this was under the National Government when sanctions were introduced and it became tougher for people to access the benefit\u2014she said to me that it was like leaving a violent relationship with her husband and entering a violent relationship with the State. There was a time when she took her smallest child into a Work and Income office and was told that the child wasn\u2019t allowed to use the toilet, and the child wet her pants in the Work and Income office. Where is the dignity in that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ESo I ask those on the other side of the House\u2014some of whom have been smirking and laughing and interrupting my colleagues talking about when their parents passed away from cancer\u2014those who profess to be Christian, as I am, who go to church services each week and, I hope, would pray for the poorest of our nation, to actually think about what they\u2019re doing to our most vulnerable people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ENow, we\u2019ve heard very, very confused arguments from the other side. Some have said this is just an administrative matter; others have actually admitted it is to reduce cost. We know, looking back over the last 20 years or so, that in most years\u2014around nine out of 10 years\u2014wage increases have been higher than inflation. That is why we made this change: because the Welfare Expert Advisory Group said that this was the most significant change that could be made to benefits to ensure that people had enough to live with dignity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re talking about people who literally are spending their entire day raising three-year-olds and maybe a four-year-old as well; changing their nappies, feeding them, getting them to early childhood education, cooking for them. In some cases, those same people are also having to go to Family Court every week because they\u2019ve got a vexatious ex-partner taking them to Family Court. So I just ask those of us who have lived these lives or who haven\u2019t lived these lives to actually just for once walk in the shoes of other people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI am the daughter of a solo mother. We were temporarily a solo parent household\u2014again, through no fault of our own; my father left our household\u2014and there were five of us under the age of 10, some of whom were still at primary school and at early childhood. My mother was able to go back to work. We were able to manage without a benefit. But if my mother hadn\u2019t\u2014and I see smirking again\u2014been a registered teacher, she wouldn\u2019t have been able to do that and actually get a job that worked around the hours of children. Even then, she was only part time. Even then, because my father was very well paid and was able to pay quite high child support\u2014again, if we hadn\u2019t had high child support payments, we would have had to go on a benefit. So think about the lives of these people for once, rather than posturing to people\u2019s misunderstandings around what lives are like for those on benefit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EJust recently, I\u2019ve had a lovely couple come into my office. It\u2019s a heartbreaking case and I think it tells the picture about how much New Zealanders just don\u2019t understand what life on a low income and on the benefit is really like. This couple\u2014their children are grown up, they have a mortgage, and they\u2019re both in full-time work. One of them has recently had a really serious set of injuries. He\u2019s unable to work now, and at this stage\u2014we are challenging it\u2014has been denied ACC. So the working partner thought, \u201CWell, we\u2019ve paid our taxes all our lives. I\u2019ll go to Work and Income. They\u2019ll be able to help.\u201D Of course, they were told\u2014and I had to tell them that this was correct\u2014that they earned too much to receive any support from Work and Income. Now, they\u2019d always thought that if they came upon hardship, they could just turn up to Work and Income and get help. They\u2019re possibly now going to have to sell their house and have to take out KiwiSaver.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ESo the reminder, I think, to people on the other side\u2014and I see all their heads are down now, which is interesting\u2014a reminder that tough times can fall on any of us. I think many people think that when we fall on those tough times that the State will be there for us. The reality is there are many, many times when we do fall on tough times and the State isn\u2019t there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ENow, the view of the Labour Party is that when people are under tough times, when they don\u2019t have\u2014and come on, try living on the benefit and paying rent each week for goodness sake; it pretty much doesn\u2019t leave much to live on after that. What we\u2019re going to see now is that overall weekly benefit eroded over time. And as the Welfare Expert Advisory Group said, this was the single most important change that a Government could make to actually lift benefits over time, and that is what is now being wound down. As I say, it\u2019s a shameful day\u2014it\u2019s a shameful day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EIf this Government does manage to magic up some tax cuts\u2014I\u2019ve got no idea how they\u2019re going to do that, but if they do\u2014every single one of us in this room, those of us who are parliamentarians, will get a tax cut. Why the heck do I need a tax cut? I find it immoral. In fact, I\u2019m so angry\u2014I\u2019m so angry\u2014that I would receive a tax cut. Utterly immoral.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233decb612e5049a19c9213d00403c375\u0022\u003ELaura Trask\u003C/span\u003E: Then donate your tax cut.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a64245a3595e49f2b7bc04b1eecfa360\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I will be. I will be donating it to the NGOs that are closing in Nelson because there\u2019s no funding from this Government\u2014I will be donating it, I can assure you of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022560e24924c424671aec780cc53878d81\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: The tax cuts aren\u2019t about funding NGOs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edcd371f56924bd6987ea324fe5f9a3c\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: Because I don\u2019t want it. I don\u2019t want it. Why would we possibly give ourselves tax cuts? Oh, now they\u2019re all heckling again. OK, so I think it\u2019s a thing in the Bible we call \u201Cgreed\u201D. Yeah, that one. Just remember that one. Those of us earning over $160,000 a year, let\u2019s just be fair, New Zealanders\u2014all of us in this room earn over $160,000 a year\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9a6a4a32926462485362adea76d46d6\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Are we still on the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f20c60dd38f341a68c44076dd5e4a9c8\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, we are still on the bill. The member\u2019s making her comparison.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5e470b8a9a74f9386baab34aaf3a37f\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: Yep. Well, you know what? Madam Speaker, some people have said this is to reduce cost to pay for tax cuts. So I\u2019m just responding to previous\u2014I know you weren\u2019t in the Chair, but there were quite a few members making those types of references around reducing cost burden to the State, so I\u2019m just discussing what that cost burden to the State\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bb7f6d3e37342d3bba783eb518553ae\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, no, I\u2019ve agreed with that. So keep going.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226133c7b62ebc48a19ce9fae56c8bc6cb\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: So I don\u2019t want a tax cut when I know that people, like my friend, who are raising children and are doing it on their own because they left a violent relationship, over the next few years will not have as much money in their pocket to pay rent. I haven\u2019t come to this House for me; I\u2019ve come to this House for them. This is a shameful day and I do not commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022 data-id=\u0022edc2c591b2594626bdd91e4aba52acef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022edc2c591b2594626bdd91e4aba52acef\u0022\u003ERIMA NAKHLE (National\u2014Takanini):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise to speak in support of this bill. Just for the benefit of people listening outside of Parliament, at home or around the world\u2014I used to love it when different MPs would explain what we\u2019re doing, because someone outside of here just might lose track\u2014we\u2019re speaking to the Social Security (Benefits Adjustment) and Income Tax (Minimum Family Tax Credit) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003ENow, for people listening from home or anywhere else, they\u2019d think\u2014if they were listening to the last few speakers from the other side of the House\u2014that this bill only does one thing, and that this bill only adjusts the way we\u2019re indexing benefits. We\u2019re saying we want to adjust that to index it on Consumers Price Index, which is inflation. So if you were listening in the last half an hour, I apologise if you think that this bill only does that one thing, because it doesn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003ENow, I know that our members on the other side of the House\u2014and I say this respectfully because I know that many of you are very lovely, beautiful people\u2014seem to have ignored the fact that this bill also proposes another change. It\u2019s a change where we adjust the minimum family tax credit bracket in a way that we ensure more lower-income families are better off if they remain in full-time work. I think it\u2019s very important that we emphasise this. Yes, there\u2019s one part of this bill that talks about adjusting benefits to inflation, taking it back to what it was for 31 out of 35 years under successive Governments, including Helen Clark\u2019s Government\u2014so we\u2019re going back to that true and tried form where we\u2019re adjusting benefits to inflation. But the second part that we\u2019re doing with this bill, here, today, is we\u2019re adjusting the minimum family tax credit. As I just mentioned, the result of this will be that more families will be better off if they choose to remain in full-time work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003ENow, I know\u2014like many of us in the House\u2014we have a lot of friends, we have a lot of families that have spoken to us about the different circumstances they find themselves in. I remember doorknocking\u2014because I love to go out doorknocking, you\u2019ll hear this a lot throughout my years in Parliament. Throughout doorknocking, many times I came across people that are clearly very hard-working people and they say to me, this simple thing, that \u201CWe don\u2019t apply. We don\u2019t reach that minimum. We don\u2019t fit under that bracket.\u201D They say that about a number of different situations, including the family tax credit. So I\u2019m very proud of the fact that we\u2019re adjusting it with this bill, and I\u2019m glad that we\u2019ve got support across the Government parties, because it will ensure that many families are better off. There\u2019s a lot of people that are juggling that beautiful juggle of having a family, having children, having mokopuna, wanting to work, and wanting to also spend time with them but also contribute to society\u2014for society, for themselves\u2014and this is one way that we\u2019re ensuring people can go out and work and they will be better off with the family tax credit. We\u2019re also adjusting the childcare credit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019d like to also speak about a number of points that were raised today, and just some thoughts as a result. A member earlier spoke about d\u00E9j\u00E0 vu. The member earlier referred to their former\u2014and this is the former Labour Government\u2019s\u2014Budgets and the aspiration behind these Budgets and the aspiration behind their 100 days, and then referred to what\u2019s happening now, under this Government\u2014our Government\u2014as d\u00E9j\u00E0 vu. Well, what I\u2019d like to respond is that it\u2019s not d\u00E9j\u00E0 vu; it\u2019s actually d\u00E9j\u00E0 true. It\u2019s d\u00E9j\u00E0 true that under Labour Governments, as we\u2019ve seen just recently, the number of young people under the age of 25 on the jobseeker benefit has risen by 66 percent. D\u00E9j\u00E0 true. In the last six years, it\u2019s now 40,000\u2014d\u00E9j\u00E0 true. This is what happens under a Labour Government. D\u00E9j\u00E0 true: under a Labour Government since 2017, New Zealanders on the jobseeker benefit have increased by 70,000. D\u00E9j\u00E0 true. This is what happens when we\u2019ve got a Labour-led Government. The latest forecast is that teenagers who become beneficiaries\u2014so under the age of 20\u2014can spend up to 24 years of their working life on welfare. D\u00E9j\u00E0 true. This is what happens as a result of a Labour-led Government. Here, on this side of the House, the National Party, with our coalition partners, will not sit around and let the d\u00E9j\u00E0 true Labour legacy of dependency go unchecked. That\u2019s why\u2014that\u2019s another reason why\u2014this bill is before the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003EA mere few months ago, I was having some kai with a very lovely woman\u2014she\u2019s a woman that\u2019s quite established now\u2014and she spoke about how she used to be on the benefit, and she shared what that did to her soul. She spoke about how one\u2019s life is not their own when they\u2019re on the benefit. She spoke about how their calendar is not their own when one is on the benefit. She spoke about how you are literally dependent on someone else when you are on the benefit. And so when she found herself on the benefit, and was surviving with a benefit, but she ached\u2014she ached to get back out into the workforce. And she\u2019s a woman that has children and found herself in difficult times. The beauty of what we have here is that we acknowledge people do find themselves in difficult times, but we also acknowledge that if we allow ourselves to go too far, we\u2019ll have a poverty of aspiration. We need to fight against the poverty of aspiration. This woman that I spoke about is the Hon Louise Upston. They\u2019re the things that she said to me and they really resonated with me\u2014what being on the benefit can do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003EOur Government wants to support people out of the benefit. Our Government wants to support families that want to work\u2014with the family tax credit, with the childcare credit. Our Government is not going to allow the poverty of aspiration to permeate any longer, and that\u2019s the kaupapa behind what we\u2019re doing here today. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022972464601dda45e38557a8ae59c6ac46\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Social Security (Benefits Adjustment) and Income Tax (Minimum Family Tax Credit) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000382\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002283cbf5fa31ae45c397b512932a9caa36\u0022\u003ESocial Workers Registration Legislation Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f49f5e889b7041129ac6a6164c78f084\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u0022d2906e57393f4dec8476f59960685a06\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d2906e57393f4dec8476f59960685a06\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Social Workers Registration\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215d9f16fe0e6478ca8f5e84f09e2ded1\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Do you have some words around a legislative statement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a553acaf3f6f4573bcf905ef9317a728\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t, but I seek to table the legislative statement for the Social Workers Registration\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201ce1647231b46eca49cdd37fcd902f7\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You say, \u201CI present a legislative statement on\u201D, and the name of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b136af9f231c44148ecb164b37d749c7\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: I present a legislative statement on the Social Workers Registration Legislation Amendment Bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aee72ae49ac041358209316447f2c32e\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. The legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022724c39fa3c37424e9c039a2aa89a7ae9\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I move, That the Social Workers Registration Legislation Amendment Bill be now read a third time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EI first want to put on record my thanks to the members of the Social Services and Community Committee who examined this legislation. In the previous Parliament, I was a member of that committee, and I know how hard-working the members of that select committee are. I also want to acknowledge the officials from the Ministry of Social Development who worked incredibly hard to ensure that this legislation is before the Parliament. So, for those that are watching, it was a bill that was started in the previous Parliament and is being continued here today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EThis bill seeks to amend the Social Workers Registration Legislation Act 2019 to delay the repeal of section 13 of the 2003 Act, which concerns the experience pathway for social worker registration, from 28 February 2024 to 28 February 2026. Delaying the repeal by two years will help to reduce workforce pressures in the social work sector by continuing to provide an alternative means of entering the profession while ensuring that the momentum continues towards a mandatory qualification environment, and there is widespread agreement this should happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EThis Government believes in investing in early interventions which will be the most effective for vulnerable New Zealanders. With this comes investing in those who provide invaluable assistance and help to our vulnerable community members. As we know and agree across the House, social workers continue to be a pillar of support across New Zealand for those in need. Recently, social workers have provided support services during extreme weather events, in addition to helping New Zealanders every day overcome challenges and pursue their aspirations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EThe Social Workers Registration Act 2003 sets out occupational regulations for social workers that protect the safety of the public. These regulations ensure that social workers are competent to practise and enhance the professionalism of social workers. Under this Act, there are currently two pathways to registration for applicants who are within New Zealand. There is the qualification pathway, and there is an alternative\u2014the experience pathway. Approximately 3 percent of the current social workers have registered through this experience pathway. So it is a very small number of those who become registered social workers. Registration provides the basis of determining the safety of social workers to practise, whether this is through the qualification or the experience pathway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EBoth pathways require the Social Workers Registration Board to assess whether the applicant has demonstrable competence to practise as a social worker and, importantly, whether they meet the fit and proper person requirement. As part of registration, social workers are also required to undergo regular supervision and professional development. If they are practising, they also need to have an annual practising certificate. To be eligible for registration via the qualification pathway, applicants must hold a prescribed academic qualification that is recognised by the Social Workers Registration Board. Section 13 of the Act states that the Social Workers Registration Board may recognise practical experience, usually between 10 and 15 years, in lieu of a recognised qualification. In February of 2021, registration became mandatory for anyone wanting to use the title \u201Csocial worker\u201D and/or practise as a social worker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EIn 2017, Cabinet agreed to repeal the experience pathway and had a delayed commencement date of 28 February 2024. This repeal would remove the ability for people without a prescribed qualification to apply for social worker registration on the basis of their practical experience. Social workers registered through the experience pathway prior to the repeal date will continue to have their registration recognised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EThe experience pathway was always intended only as a temporary measure for social worker registration while the sector transitioned to a professional qualification environment. The delayed commencement date was intended to support the social work sector to transition from voluntary to mandatory by allowing unregistered practitioners more time either to complete a qualification or to apply to register under the experience pathway. The decision to repeal the experience pathway was made to enhance the professionalisation of the sector through the achievement of a qualification.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EAcademic achievement was not defined or constrained to being solely via attainment of a degree, but through the attainment of qualifications that have been prescribed by the Social Workers Registration Board. This decision was also underpinned by an assumption that there would be sufficient supply to meet future demand for social workers. There has been both political agreement as well as general support from the social worker representatives that social workers should be required to complete a qualification. However, several changes have meant that more time is needed to support the transition to a mandatory qualification environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EFirstly, social worker shortages have continued to increase. Social workers are experiencing an increase in demand alongside a reduction in supply due to decreasing student enrolment in social work qualifications. That was exacerbated due to the effects of the COVID-19 pandemic and Cyclone Gabrielle. The Social Workers Registration Board currently estimates there are about 700 unfilled roles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003ESecondly, delaying the repeal of the experience pathway will also enable the sector to maximise the opportunities presented by recent pay changes for social workers. These increases provide a financial incentive for eligible practitioners to become registered. Delaying the repeal of the experience pathway will ensure that an additional pathway for entry into the social worker workforce remains open temporarily, as it was always intended to only be temporary while steps continue to be taken to transition to a professional qualification environment as quickly as possible, and that is important for the public safety element.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EMandatory qualifications are part of the wider changes designed to enhance the professionalism of social workers and provide the public confidence in the services they provide. Addressing workforce shortages requires a multi-pronged approach, with support from the whole social work sector, including employers and industry bodies. It is important that the sector continues to take the lead in developing their workforce, working towards increasing the pipeline of social workers entering the profession.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003ESince becoming the Minister for Social Development and Employment, I have considered several options regarding the future of the bill, including whether the bill should be progressed, discarded, or amended. Last week, I tabled an Amendment Paper to amend the bill and shorten the time period for those applying through the experience pathway from four years to two years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EI have considered feedback from the sector, input from submissions received at the select committee, along with advice provided by officials. I have also received more recent correspondence from the Aotearoa New Zealand Association of Social Workers, who, during the submission process, supported a two-year delay to the experience pathway. They have more recently expressed a preference for a four-year extension, together with the Tangata Whenua Social Workers Association. I would like to acknowledge and thank these organisations for their contribution along with their ongoing dedication to the sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EBased on a number of considerations, I believe that a two-year delay of the repeal from 28 February 2024 to 28 February 2026 will balance the need to support the supply of social workers in the short term while maintaining the emphasis on transitioning to a professional qualification environment as soon as possible. No one has disputed the need or justification to transition to a mandatory qualification environment, and it is important that the emphasis remains for people to start fulfilling this requirement as soon as they are able.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EThe Social Workers Registration Board have recently made changes to the experience pathway application process to make this more accessible for M\u0101ori. I anticipate this will support experienced M\u0101ori practitioners to register as social workers through the experience pathway over the next two years. All applications received by the board prior to the repeal date on 28 February 2026 will be considered and processed for registration, so experienced practitioners will have two years to lodge an application under this experience pathway. In addition, the two-year delay will provide an opportunity to consider alternative entry pathways into social worker registration, including reviewing recognition of prior learning requirements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EThe work that social workers do is tireless and deserves much recognition. I\u2019d like to also thank the former Minister for her contribution in the first parts of this bill. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc7b8a00e213400584fa21399b7053a9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc7b8a00e213400584fa21399b7053a9\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022 data-id=\u00221728e53d56124501ae442b9a522e87ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221728e53d56124501ae442b9a522e87ab\u0022\u003EHon CARMEL SEPULONI (Labour\u2014Kelston):\u003C/span\u003E Firstly, I just want to acknowledge that we do support this legislation, and I also acknowledge that making it mandatory for registration for social workers was actually something that was supported across the House. The history of it being: I did have a member\u2019s bill, the Government at the time didn\u2019t support it, then the National Government did their own bill, they didn\u2019t get to see it through, we got to make social worker registration mandatory when we got in\u2014the main gist of it being, though, we did all support that piece of legislation. We support what is here today, which is extending the pathway for experience so that social workers can become registered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EWhat we\u2019ve found over the course of recent years, even after having made social worker registration mandatory, is that there\u2019s still a lag. There are still some out there practising in jobs where, perhaps, they are partially through qualifications, perhaps they have finished their qualification, but they haven\u2019t yet become registered. It\u2019s important that we provide this experience pathway and extend that opportunity, because we still experience a shortage of social workers and we all recognise, in the House, how important our social workers are and how important it is that we have them in the roles where they are serving some of our most vulnerable children, families, and communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EWhat we\u2019ve seen in recent years have been some changes. We have seen the opportunity in terms of pay that social workers are able to earn actually increase, and so that is something that we are hoping serves as an incentive for our social workers or those working in roles where they could actually get the social worker qualification and become registered, for them to pursue that. However, because we still have that workforce shortage, it is necessary to provide this extended period of time for them to access that experience pathway, because, actually, that\u2019s important for them but it\u2019s important for us being able to meet the workforce shortage that we\u2019re currently experiencing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EWhat was disappointing with this particular bill is the Government\u2019s decision to reduce the extension or time frame for being able to get the experience pathway from four years to two years. Initially, the bill had laid out four years for people to be able to access that experience pathway, and then what happened was that this Government decided that it would reduce that to two years. Now, I can understand why initially they may have thought that was a good idea. They did receive at least one submission during the select committee process from a reputable professional body stating that it could be reduced from four years to two years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EHowever, it is important to note that we tabled the letter in the Chamber during the committee of the whole House stage, which went to the Minister for social development, also came to me, and now is information that every member in this House can access, where the Aotearoa New Zealand Association for Social Workers (ANZASW) made clear that the submission that had been put in, requesting that the extension time frame be two years rather than four years, was not something that was supported by their professional body. I am going to put that letter and the words of that letter on record in the House because I think it\u2019s important. The Minister decided that despite this last-minute plea from the Aotearoa New Zealand Association for Social Workers she would push ahead with the two years rather than the four years that had been originally set down in the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThe letter to the Minister stated, \u201CThank you for the phone call this morning.\u201D\u2014that was actually a phone call to me; they sometimes forget that I\u2019m not a Minister anymore\u2014\u201CHere is an update on the ANZASW position on the s13 Experience Pathway to social work extension currently before the house. The ANZASW prides itself on being a leader in the social work sector, however occasionally we get it wrong, and it appears that this is one of those times when we have been \u2018out of step\u2019 with the sector. For this we apologise. Our previous CE\u201D\u2014I won\u2019t name the previous chief executive\u2014\u201Cprepared and presented a submission to the Select Committee arguing for a 2 year extension to the s13 Experience Pathway to social work rather than the 4 years, as agreed by our other sector partners. I did try to have our submission removed and adjusted from the select committee process, but the email did not get passed on to the appropriate people. I did not follow \u2026 up, which is unfortunate. I have been in touch with Miriama Scott from the Tangata Whenua Social Workers Association to affirm our collective position of supporting the extension of 4 years to 27 February 2028. The ANZASW supports the sector position that an extension of 4 years provides time for the [Social Worker Registration Board], alongside MSD and the sector, to consider the longer-term options for [entering] into social work which is a crucial need. The ANZASW supports the training of more social workers which includes alternative pathways, \u2026 for more culturally appropriate training to occur. We are very concerned with the low numbers of M\u0101ori and Pasifika social workers in the sector and note that there are many working with wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B and iwi and in marae who would benefit from these alternative pathways to acknowledge their mahi and years of experience. We also acknowledge the skills and knowledge they bring to the sector and that many will in time engage in social work education programmes.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThat letter came from Sharyn Roberts from the Aotearoa New Zealand Association for Social Workers. It went to the Minister, and yet the Minister chose to ignore that last-minute plea to keep the legislation as was, at four years, rather than reducing it to two years. The implications for the social workers association have been laid out really clearly. It will reduce the opportunity for some of those social workers, particularly M\u0101ori and Pacific, to be able to get registered and to be able to continue practising. That is detrimental not just for their own careers but also particularly for the wh\u0101nau that are going to want to and need to access their support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EThe issue that I raised during committee stages that arises by the Minister ignoring this letter is, firstly, any defence that they were using to actually justify the reduction in time is null and void when the professional bodies then come back with a letter like this, saying, \u201CPlease excuse that submission. We tried to pull it. That is not our position at all.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003ESecondly, I have to say, it does cause us all to question how nimble the Minister is able to be in these situations, because, actually, she should have been able to turn around, to see that the position was different from what she had first thought, and then been able to adjust accordingly. But, unfortunately, she was not able to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EIt was concerning during the committee stage, too, to put on record, that the actual Minister of the bill was not the one who was presiding in the chair at the time. It\u2019s very hard to have a constructive debate when the person who should be most informed about this bill was not the one who was participating in the committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003EI raised the point during committee stage, too, that if we find ourselves in a position 18 months from now where we still have the workforce shortages in the social work sector for qualified, registered social workers in 18 months\u2019 time, there is a very strong chance, because of the urgent need to have social workers in these positions, that we\u2019re going to end up back in this House, having to legislate, amend again for another extension when we could have just got it right the first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003ESo we do support this bill with the utmost disappointment, though, that the experts have been ignored\u2014not the first time by that Government, I have to say\u2014that a plea to actually keep the bill as-is was undermined, and that the decision to reduce that time period to two years has continued, despite the evidence that has been put before the Minister. That is disappointing. That is disappointing particularly in light that this is one of those pieces of legislation that there is cross-party support for. We only wish that the Minister could have been more nimble, more willing to listen to the actual experts, and amenable to actually making a change and withdrawing that amendment at committee stage. However, in saying that, we will continue to advocate for social workers, from this side of the House, and we do support the bill despite the fact that we are clearly disappointed and do not agree with the two-year reduction in time for these social workers to be able to access the experience pathway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022 data-id=\u0022a6613a175ea547999cebd1975738808a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a6613a175ea547999cebd1975738808a\u0022\u003EHon MARAMA DAVIDSON (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. The Green Party is also supporting the Social Workers Registration Legislation Amendment Bill. I\u2019ll start by acknowledging the previous speaker, the Hon Carmel Sepuloni, and her vast experience, insight, and sector relationships with social service workers, particularly over the past couple of terms in a ministerial role, which requires that insight and that knowledge to feed into what is best for social workers but also for our communities\u2014what those needs are. We are supporting this legislation because we support the principle and the movement that acknowledges the importance of qualified and safe practice for social workers and for the people and the wh\u0101nau and the communities who require social work support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EWe were also very, very aware that extending the lead-in time to repeal back the experience pathway was\u2014and this is the bit of the debate that I want to make quite clear. We\u2019re supporting this legislation. Yes, there is still another\u2014hang on, what\u2019s the date?\u2014two years, so it comes into force on 28 February 2026. We too would have preferred the experience pathway to be rolled back another two years\u2014with another extra two years\u2014to 28 February 2028. This Government has chopped a couple of years off, and we were very opposed to that amendment to the legislation. However, we will support the two-year extension.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EI talked in the first reading about centring the absolute importance of safe and qualified practice, especially for the people who require those services and that support. I used the experience of being a prevention of violence Minister over the past three years and how I came face to face all around the motu on the experience of when practice is not safe, when practice is not informed, and when social work practice and care practice is not up to speed with understanding the dynamics of being able to identify violence and being able to safely respond and also understanding the element of healing that all social work must incorporate into its practice. So I\u2019m making it very clear that I absolutely back the sector in wanting to make sure that we have safe practice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EWhat I also heard about around the country, again, in prevention of violence but also in the housing portfolio areas where many of the front-line workers\u2014particularly in the homelessness space and the social housing provider space\u2014have lived experience of homelessness, of social housing, of requiring specific housing support. Similarly, too, I always heard around the country about disabled workers and the incredible gap that we have, especially in the prevention of violence space, of services that are specific to sexual violence experienced by people who are disabled, by disabled people, the gap in the workforce for those particular areas of need and, as the former speaker, the Hon Carmel Sepuloni, highlighted, the massive and decades-long gaps in the M\u0101ori and Pasifika cultural expertise practice space. Those require us to be thinking that the needs on those particular skills and lived experience are going to increase over the coming years and not decrease. Therefore, to try and balance, to make sure we are centring safe practice but also ensure that the experience and skill and value of lived experience is utilised in a way that can only benefit communities, this is why giving a little bit more lead-in to pulling back on the experience pathway, and as much lead-in as possible, is so important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003ENow, the Minister has often stood to say where they\u2019ve had enough of a heads-up, there\u2019ve been some conversations going since 2017 and so on and so forth. Yes, there have. But what we have not done to meet that expectation is we haven\u2019t made the structural change to remove the barriers to the very people with the very lived experience, skill, and knowledge to be able to ease into that pathway in a way that we require. We haven\u2019t done that structural work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EOne of the biggest factors behind the difficulties and the barriers to receiving and being able to train and qualify and study for social work registration is poverty. We haven\u2019t removed that as a barrier. This Government is showing only signs of making that worse, and so this is another example of why we needed to extend that pathway as part of understanding that the barriers haven\u2019t been removed. Whether we\u2019ve given them a heads up since 2000 or 2017, the barriers haven\u2019t been removed, and so I did want to acknowledge that that is also why we opposed the amendment for cutting down a couple of years off that heads-up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EJust the weekend just gone, at Big Gay Out, we the Greens made sure to prioritise visiting the health services along that lane of tents at the fantastic festival that I congratulate the organisers for, that range of services, NGOs, attending to a very diverse set of specific needs for rainbow takat\u0101pui trans wh\u0101nau. I met and spoke with young people with lived experience who have been impacted on by the discrimination and the very health issues that rainbow communities face. And the model that they are using also provides experience, counselling, and psychological services around these young people, because this is, of course, the principle that it is the lived experience, knowledge, and skills that often have the most impact in feeling relevant to the very people whose trust often has been hugely destroyed by ordinary avenues and support. So, again, the rainbow community and young people were speaking to us very clearly about the need to ensure that we can maintain those experience pathways while wrapping around the qualification and safe practice support for them to continue to become the social workers that that community desperately requires.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EI wish the Minister had spent more time even talking to those very organisations. Ms Sepuloni herself outlined that the key stakeholder in this legislation who\u2014yes, there was apparently a submission which may have been in favour of cutting off two years of lead-in, but that wasn\u2019t actually a consensus thought from that association of social workers. I wish too that the Minister would have sought\u2014see, this is the problem when we go into urgency and when a Government has got a bit of a rip and tear attitude. It\u2019s so much easier to tear things down and destroy decades of hard work than it is to create enduring solutions. And when you have that attitude of rushing through things to tick some boxes, these are the voices that are missed out. This is how bad laws are made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EI completely agree with Ms Sepuloni that we may find ourselves back here when we discover\u2014oh, oh!\u2014we need more disabled community support, we need more M\u0101ori and Pasifika and rangatahi support, we need more rainbow workers support, and we haven\u2019t got enough qualified social workers yet. We haven\u2019t ended homelessness. We haven\u2019t ended poverty, and so the structural barriers remain to those groups seeking to be workers in a field that this House is desperately going to rely on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003ESo the Greens are supporting the legislation overall. We wish that the Minister had the foresight and leadership to have been able to maintain a longer lead-in. That is disappointing. I truly hope we do not end up back here in the next years to try and remedy her lack of insight. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022 data-id=\u00220b4588b0ade74b02be55fc0a7e0eacbf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b4588b0ade74b02be55fc0a7e0eacbf\u0022\u003EDr PARMJEET PARMAR (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I\u2019m taking this call to support this bill on behalf of ACT in its third reading. To start with, I would like to thank all social workers for the important work that they do, and the direct and indirect role they play in people\u2019s lives. I would also like to acknowledge the select committee that worked on this legislation and each and every submitter for their contribution to this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EAs I said before, social workers play a very important role in people\u2019s lives. But on the other hand, it\u2019s really important for people\u2014those who are receiving services from these social workers\u2014to also be getting the assurance that the social worker who is working with them is professional and can be held accountable. So that is what this bill is about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EThere is this component of registration which used to be voluntary, but the bill originally made it mandatory, and now we have experienced that there were two pathways to getting registration. One pathway is through qualification and the other pathway is through experience. Because there are so many positions\u2014around 700 social worker positions\u2014still unfilled, we realised that we need to keep the options open. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003ESo just going with one option of qualifications may not be enough, though we know that the take-up through the experience pathway is quite small\u2014around 3 percent. But still, when there are 700 unfilled positions, we want to make sure that there is every opportunity available to any person who is enrolled as a social worker to get registered to satisfy the Social Workers Registration Board\u2019s requirements and to be officially called a social worker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EI have seen personally how hard social workers work, and we don\u2019t want them to get exhausted because of the shortage of social workers in the field. I chaired an NGO that helped victims of domestic violence, and I would say this: I used to see social workers involved in that NGO and NGOs that this NGO worked with\u2014these social workers used to work day and night. During the day, they used to get several calls, and during the night as well. There used to always be a social worker on duty at night, too, ready to take a phone call if the phone rang. Especially on Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays, it used to be really busy. It wasn\u2019t just about taking that phone call; it was about, once the phone call has been received, responding to that incident, so these social workers would get in their car straight away and arrive wherever they were needed, according to the phone call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EWhat is really important in this kind of work, which I want to note, is that when a social worker is attending a case like that of domestic violence, victims share a lot of personal and sometimes a lot of sensitive information about their experience, their trauma, and what the situation has been. So they need to have that confidence that the social worker that they\u2019re dealing with is fully professional, is competent, and they can be held accountable. That is why having this registration process is important. But on the other hand, we have to see that we have enough people in the workforce so that the social workers that are working in different fields of social work are not getting exhausted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s really important to also emphasise that we need to see how the pipeline is working to ensure that we are able to fill these positions. As I said, the experience pathway was always going to be a temporary measure, and now it is also going to be a temporary measure, but this extension of allowing people to use the experience pathway for another two years will allow some last-minute social workers, those who are out there and are considering getting registered as social workers, to really seriously consider and come on board and get their registration done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EWe know that there is a lot of demand out there, and people do consider different kinds of career pathways just because of the shortage of social workers. We don\u2019t want social workers, those who are already working as social workers, to start thinking about other career pathways because of the pressure that they are going through, and that is why this extension is important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EI would also like to speak to the amendment which was put through during the committee of the whole House, and I acknowledge contributions from members from the other side and that they would have liked it to be four years. The extension is for two years, but it\u2019s important to note that we have to find a cut-off time, and that cut-off time needs to be reasonable, and at this stage, we support that amendment which was put through during the committee of the whole House. So we support the Social Workers Registration Legislation Amendment Bill and commend it to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022 data-id=\u00225b797ac6b3434fc580ef350b6cbbb1cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b797ac6b3434fc580ef350b6cbbb1cf\u0022\u003ETANYA UNKOVICH (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to support the Social Workers Registration Legislation Amendment Bill in this third reading. I personally have quite a passion for this area, as many know\u2014the area of mental health. It is something that is very close to New Zealand First as well. They have always been very much a supporter of the Mike King I Am Hope Foundation, which the coalition Government has now decided to support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003EThere is one thing that I know to be true\u2014and that is not only from personal experience but from also the clients that I have helped in my time in the helping profession\u2014and that is the need for human connection. When someone is having an urgent cry for help, they will listen to someone who understands; they\u2019re not going to ask the question, \u201CHang on, before I share anything with you, what are your qualifications?\u201D They are desperate\u2014some people are desperate to be heard. This is where lived experience is key. I studied to be a therapist in my mid-30s. I didn\u2019t start helping people in my mid-30s; I started helping people a lot sooner, in fact, as a teenager. But the person who helped me the most as a teenager was someone who had the same problem. They weren\u2019t qualified at all; they too became qualified later in life. But it was their lived experience that enabled me to heal from inside and start speaking to someone. And often that is the first step: it is to actually open up and just start speaking to someone, because what often stops people from doing that is shame. And if anyone understands what shame is like, it is someone else who is going through the same problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s why I\u2019m very quick to stand up and put my hand up to speak on this bill, because I know how short the workforce is in this area. I know how many people are on waiting lists. I hear about young teenagers who are on waiting lists to have someone to speak to about their body dysmorphia issues and their eating issues, which seems to be accelerating at the moment. This is an area where someone can help who has been through the same issue. That is why I feel that it is so important that we, all together, in the House, support this bill, knowing that it is going to help someone we know and someone who we don\u2019t know who is suffering right now but who needs to reach out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003EOne of the things that I learnt on my journey was that service to another person was what often made our own life feel fulfilled. If we can support people who have a lived experience, who are out there helping others, then this will also give them some sense of purpose themselves, and maybe ignite something in them to not only be qualified but to do more in their own lives. And by them doing more in their own lives, they\u2019re going to then lead by example to others, maybe their own clients, family, friends. But it is about really encouraging people to try and thrive as much as they possibly can and step out of their own comfort zone. For many who are workers with lived experience, who are not yet qualified, this is their own pathway to their form of greatness in some way, and it can only help serve others who are suffering right now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019ve spoken a bit about shame, and I\u2019d like to talk a little bit more about that. Early intervention is preferable, but it\u2019s sometimes not available, and it isn\u2019t available because many do not want to reach out and shame is what is stopping them. So one of the areas, for example, where shame really affects people from reaching out is addictions. You tend to think that you\u2019re the only one suffering. You tend to think you\u2019re the only one who doesn\u2019t know how to put down the drink. You tend to think you\u2019re the only one who doesn\u2019t know how to stop overeating or stop gambling. But when you hear another person say, \u201CI know what it\u2019s like because I\u2019ve been there too.\u201D, that is one of the first things that will ignite hope into someone who is suffering because that will then help them to feel, \u201CHey, it\u2019s not just me.\u201D, which is why I so want to speak as much as I can on this area in my 10 minutes that I\u2019m allowed; I may run out of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003EThe other area where this is so prevalent, I find, is in abusive relationships. People stay in abusive relationships because they are too ashamed to say that their world isn\u2019t as they are making it out to be. They do not want to say that they are actually not living in the white picket fence that they are really telling everyone about, but inside the relationship it is quite abusive and they stay. But when they hear someone else who has been able to either speak up in an abusive relationship, create healthy boundaries, or, in extreme cases, get up and leave, then that has to be a good thing if a whole family unit is suffering. So to be able to speak to someone who has been able to move on or to somehow even heal a family unit, this has got to be a good thing. And this is why we need more people with lived experience in our community helping.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003EIf you look at 12-step programmes that have been around for decades, they are just people all coming together who want to get help, and they get help within the fellowship there. No one asks, \u201CWhat is your qualification?\u201D before they get up to speak.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m speaking about these things, which are coming from a bit of a different angle, but I just wanted to share because, having been in the helping profession myself and particularly seeing and hearing what I\u2019ve had to hear over the last few years\u2014especially during this time of the pandemic\u2014is the loneliness that is out there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcde18cc6b8f4b1d87751065aa98c9b2\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Ms Unkovich, you\u2019ve done some very good contexting for the bill, so you\u2019ve probably got about three minutes now to talk about the bill itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7697cdbe24a4305b0d6a3af75080107\u0022\u003ETANYA UNKOVICH\u003C/span\u003E: The bill itself. Well, to cut it short, we really commend this bill to the House. We feel that it is the best way to alleviate the workforce shortage that we\u2019ve got and to encourage people to get out there and help everyone else in the community. So we commend this bill to the House. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002207586be8c22e4251ae145b501cbfdcd8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207586be8c22e4251ae145b501cbfdcd8\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: This is a five-minute split call between Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori and the Greens. Takutai Tarsh Kemp.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bca459a19374cb68c1afe12bf99a2f9\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Takutai.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225130fc28e7db495d8b0f5750a384022a\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Takutai, sorry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022 data-id=\u00222e922e05d4754cb3a286c6b2b1509a1c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e922e05d4754cb3a286c6b2b1509a1c\u0022\u003ETAKUTAI TARSH KEMP (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014T\u0101maki Makaurau):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te P\u012Bka. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou e te Whare an\u014D. I\u2019m taking this call for the third reading on behalf of Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori. Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori acknowledge the mana of social workers and tautoko this bill. What we don\u2019t support is the shortened time frame from four years to two years. We get it\u2014there\u2019s a workforce issue. There\u2019s simply not enough registered social workers to meet the vacancy needs in our community\u2014believe me, I know. As a CEO of Manurewa Marae, we were faced with this issue all the time. And it continues\u2014it\u2019s not a new issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022\u003EThe bill supports our mana \u014Drite policy, acknowledging pay equity for M\u0101ori social workers\u2014pai t\u0113n\u0101. Protecting our whakapapa is everything to the survival of our culture, our tikanga, and our mokopuna.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022\u003EI want to share with the members of this House my experience in my role as the CEO of Manurewa Marae, in which I faced firsthand the issues in front of us: (1) not able to recruit social workers due to the lack of workforce; (2) not being able to recruit M\u0101ori social workers\u2014social workers who reflected our community. Government departments were paying $30,000 more and M\u0101ori partners could never compete with the pay equity. As an employer, I could never afford to employ or recruit qualified registered social workers. So, wherever this bill lands, Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori want culturally competent, safe practitioners.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022\u003EI hear other members, on this side of the House, reiterating the word \u201Csafe\u201D. Safety is key to the wellbeing and healing of our people. But not just any culturally competent, safe practitioners; we want practitioners that align to our m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori frameworks and values. We have a way. I heard a member talk about an approach\u2014we have an approach and a way. It\u2019s in our M\u0101ori way. Wh\u0101nau ora is the way, which incorporates our own values and tikanga to build hope and belief in the healing and trauma within our wh\u0101nau. Practitioners who are Tiriti - centric, mana-enhancing, and make mokopuna decisions for our people. That\u2019s what we\u2019re looking for: culturally competent, safe practitioners. Our homes are tapu. Our wh\u0101nau need a workforce who will believe in them, who will support wh\u0101nau with their healing, but, mostly, our wh\u0101nau want trusted, safe practitioners. We want a workforce that breaks cycles\u2014breaks the intergenerational trauma our wh\u0101nau have suffered. Wh\u0101nau ora is our way of healing, and I\u2019ve been fortunate enough to have seen the healing occur.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022\u003EYes, we want to support this bill. We want this Government to stop being taringa m\u0101r\u014D, to the solutions that will improve the healing of our wh\u0101nau, and Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2019s role is to hold this Government to account. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022 data-id=\u002267820f2823c74aecab0c0f5bc45f3a28\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002267820f2823c74aecab0c0f5bc45f3a28\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, please, Mr Speaker. I\u2019d like to, please, implore to the Speaker that there\u2019s effort and correction of pronunciation of our MPs\u2019 names. We have experienced it for the last few months. I know that it can be difficult as a second language - learner, but there is a very different meaning from the name that Takutai was referred to as, and I do think that we need to implore that the House\u2014and the Speaker specifically\u2014get these correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00222bdb80f39f6848b49a1eaa882eff597f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222bdb80f39f6848b49a1eaa882eff597f\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, well, certainly that\u2019s an effort we will make. I did correct my initial pronunciation, but I\u2019ll take that on board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229fa9132b-a783-45c9-8207-a84b9bc03e22\u0022 data-id=\u00220fec19813c7047768c43f2306ecf85e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa9132b-a783-45c9-8207-a84b9bc03e22\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220fec19813c7047768c43f2306ecf85e2\u0022\u003EFA\u2019AN\u0100N\u0100 EFESO COLLINS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise to reiterate the words of our co-leader Marama Davidson\u2014we will be supporting this bill\u2014and I will speak to part of the disappointment that was expressed earlier in her words. We support this bill because we know that we need more social workers. We\u2019ve got, as the Minister has already outlined, 700 social workers that we\u2019re short of in the workforce and, as my parliamentary colleague here from Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori has mentioned, we\u2019ve got to have a social worker workforce that\u2019s culturally competent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa9132b-a783-45c9-8207-a84b9bc03e22\u0022\u003EWe talk more in the academy now about coming to workplaces culturally humble or with cultural humility, and that\u2019s the understanding of the particular frameworks in which you\u2019re dealing with certain people. I think that that\u2019s the kind of cultural competence and cultural humility that we\u2019re after, and we support this piece of legislation because we know that the writings, the words, and the letter that we have received from the M\u0101ori social work group said that we want to embed te ao M\u0101ori in the practice of our social workers. In order for this to happen, we\u2019re going to need to encourage people who are coming and who are going to use the experience pathway to be able to use it. The disappointment that we have in the Greens is that we\u2019ve gone from what could have been four years and have reduced it to two years and by rushing this process, but not just rushing this process but by rushing people through a process for this qualification. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa9132b-a783-45c9-8207-a84b9bc03e22\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s important that people are given the opportunity through the experience pathway\u2014which is why we call it, I\u2019m guessing, the experience pathway\u2014because they are coming with these experiences, having worked in these communities for a long time, to be able to bring that knowledge and that expertise to be qualified for social work. That\u2019s an important consideration we need to make, and so it is disappointing from this side of the House that we\u2019ve gone from what could have been four years to what\u2019s now two years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa9132b-a783-45c9-8207-a84b9bc03e22\u0022\u003EI come from a social work family. In fact, in the old days, we used to call it Child, Youth and Family Service, and a lot of our social workers went through there. But I think, for M\u0101ori and Pasifika communities, in particular, and for migrant communities, the service ethos is in our DNA. We\u2019re a people who want to serve and who want to give back to our communities, and this is what this is going to allow. It\u2019s going to allow people who come with these experiences, having worked with these particular communities\u2014whether it\u2019s in churches, in schools, or in youth organisations\u2014to bring that rich experience to what they are doing. So this pathway is really important. It\u2019s important that we\u2019ve got qualified social workers who are working out in our communities but also people who bring this rich diversity of experience, because they\u2019re the ones who really know how to work with many of the communities that we\u2019re dealing with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa9132b-a783-45c9-8207-a84b9bc03e22\u0022\u003EI know that we\u2019ve got social workers in school. As someone who\u2019s worked in schools for a long time, I know the difference that having a social worker in a school makes, because they\u2019re able to connect with them. They\u2019re able to communicate with many of our young people in a way that perhaps some of us might not know the lingo or the language. In the Greens, I\u2019m often told \u201CWhat\u2019s the vibe?\u201D, and sometimes that gets me because I\u2019m not sure what they mean by \u201CWhat\u2019s the vibe?\u201D But it\u2019s that kind of language and those words\u2014that vernacular; that young person vernacular\u2014that social workers understand really well, and I\u2019ve made commentary before, I believe, that social workers are as important as police officers, because they\u2019re the ones who are working and walking alongside our communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa9132b-a783-45c9-8207-a84b9bc03e22\u0022\u003ESo we support this bill. What we would have supported even more, though, and with greater strength was if we pushed it out to the four years that was originally being spoken of in the beginning, because that\u2019s only going to help this process so that we can fill or start to fill the unfilled number of social workers which is needed, which is 700. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa9132b-a783-45c9-8207-a84b9bc03e22\u0022\u003ESo, yeah, we commend this to the House, and I did like the point that was raised earlier about it being that the lived experience is key. These people bring this lived experience to the profession, and it\u2019s a profession that we desperately need. We need more social workers and we need to provide the necessary avenues for them to be qualified so that they can be in the community with these qualifications, serving our people. They play a really pivotal part in the healing and the restoration of so many families and so many people who need someone to stand alongside them. So I\u2019m glad to support it; I think this is really important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa9132b-a783-45c9-8207-a84b9bc03e22\u0022\u003EI just want to close by thanking the social workers that we have, because they\u2019re doing such pivotal, meaningful work in the community today, and we need them. The Greens stand in favour of this bill. Thanks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022 data-id=\u0022b320e22127bb4c2a9f37690257a30470\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b320e22127bb4c2a9f37690257a30470\u0022\u003EPAULO GARCIA (National\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to follow after the other member\u2019s speech, because his speech always has a very calming effect, and it\u2019s much appreciated in this debating chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003EI would like to go back to the beginnings of why we have the Social Workers Registration Act. From the time that the first social work courses were offered in Victoria University in the 1950s through to the passage of the Social Workers Registration Act in 2003, the object of the Act was to build and retain confidence in the profession of social work. At that time, it was considered a crucial step forward in the journey towards raising the status of social work as a profession in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003EThe registration fostered uniformity across a very diverse expanse of a professional entity that social work provides. It was a clear pathway for enhancing the qualifications and the skills that were more and more being demanded of the many social workers that have come into the professional space over time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003EI take this opportunity to say a word of praise for all of the social workers in New Zealand who do a lot of hard work and who impact on the society so much. I include in that word of appreciation also the very many Filipinos who do social work in New Zealand. Social workers work in very difficult and, oftentimes, confronting circumstances that demand a very high level of professionalism and skill. We want, therefore, to ensure this level of competence and this level of accountability for the work that social workers do, because they cater to a public that can be said to be extremely vulnerable, and they are the first line\u2014the front-liners\u2014who deal with a very, very vulnerable public.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003EAn article from Aotearoa New Zealand Social Work highlights that the Social Workers Registration Board goes through the process that ensures that the registration of social workers confirms their demonstrated competencies and capabilities as they are enabled to hold themselves out in dealing with the general public and, more particularly, the very large and very diverse cultural and ethnic society that New Zealand is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003ENow, by 2021, the Act made social workers\u2019 registration mandatory. There are two avenues to become registered. It is actually such a big opportunity for many social workers who may not have possessed the recognised qualifications that the registration board required but had what was described to be extensive personal experience in doing social work over a period of time in New Zealand and that if they were able to demonstrate that, then they could be registered. So there is no better opportunity for social workers who are doing social work through experience to become registered. But going back to the 2003 Act, where the object was to enhance and ensure that the public that the social workers in New Zealand deal with understands and holds to a high degree of respect and accountability social workers, then it is incumbent upon social workers to take advantage of that opportunity to become registered, if not through qualifications but through their actual work experience done over many years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003ENow, in 2017, this side of the House agreed to an extension of time for the opportunity to become registered under experience as a pathway to four years. Now we support this move with the amendment by the Minister to shorten that extension from four years to two. The object there is to hasten those who are already able and those who have been made aware of the pathway to become registered through work experience in New Zealand over time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003EThe opportunity has been there for quite some time, and there is really no opportunity to delay, and that\u2019s part of the reason why a shortened extension is deemed appropriate. There remains two years to be able to do that, should this amendment pass, and two years also for the opportunity to become qualified, which is something that everyone should take advantage of. I have met and spoken, within our friends, with so many social workers who are Filipinos, and I keep telling them to take advantage of this opportunity to become registered. And there are very different reasons why they could be slow in taking that up: they are steeped in work; they are working very late hours over many days\u2014not just the normal 40-hour work week. And so that\u2019s one of the hurdles. They just ignore it because they\u2019re working, working, working and they will just end up missing the opportunity. So a gentle push and a reminder that that extension is now proposed to be amended to two years will, hopefully, facilitate their improved uptake and serious focus on the opportunity. On this basis, we commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u002291f15d93bea045729b39c59429c25c61\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002291f15d93bea045729b39c59429c25c61\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Thank you for the opportunity to take a call on the third reading of the Social Workers Registration Legislation Amendment Bill. As has been said by previous speakers from our side, we will be supporting the bill. However, I do want to take this opportunity to just outline some of my concerns about what happened in the committee of the whole House stage of this debate on the bill, because I agree with the Hon Carmel Sepuloni, who, actually, for the benefit of the House, read the entire correspondence sent to the Minister for Social Development and Employment by significant organisations regarding the reduction of the time from four years down to two years. I want to just take an opportunity to put on record what my unaddressed concerns were about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI asked questions in the committee stage about whether the Minister, in her consideration of her tabled amendment, had given any or sufficient consideration to M\u0101ori impacted by her proposed changes. Because we had a letter from the Aotearoa New Zealand Association of Social Workers and a message included in that from the Tangata Whenua Social Workers Association, saying that their written submission was incorrect; they made an error. They tried to withdraw their submission. They tried to correct their position. The proposal to reduce it from four years down to two years was on the basis of the Social Services and Community Committee report which relied on these submissions, which the submitters said they tried to have removed, but due to some procedural errors at the select committee, that did not happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ESo they wrote to the Minister on 13 February to have her reconsider the tabled amendment of reducing the time frame from four years to two years. We interrogated that; there was some questioning and answering happening in that stage, but what I didn\u2019t get answers on was any specific consideration given to M\u0101ori social workers\u2014no answer; the debate closed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EThe Minister today, in her third reading speech, talked about a very small number of social workers who apply under section 13 to the pathway to registration, but what I want to note is that there has been an increasing recognition of the value of indigenous, te ao M\u0101ori practice in social work where the experience pathway supports this. Around a quarter of social workers registered under the experience pathway over the past 13 years have identified as M\u0101ori; however, the proportion of M\u0101ori under the section 13 applicants is increasing. For example, between the years 2020 and 2022, 31 percent of social worker registrations under the experience pathway were people who identified as M\u0101ori. So the Minister said in her third reading speech that it\u2019s a very small number that we\u2019re talking about, and that she doesn\u2019t, in her opinion, regardless of the letters that she received from those two organisations that I mentioned earlier\u2014in her wisdom, she believes that it should, in fact, remain as she proposed, two years instead of the four.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m standing to reluctantly support this bill this evening. I wanted to totally support it, as it was originally introduced by the Labour Government with a four-year extension. We fully supported it. When the Minister first picked it up, it still was four years. However, it\u2019s been reduced to two years, and I have some serious concerns about that, and other speakers in the House tonight have said that we hope we are not back here in two years\u2019 time taking up more of the House\u2019s time to consider whether an additional extension is required or not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s all I wanted to add to the debate this afternoon, summing up our discussion, our questions and answers that we had last week in the committee of the whole House stage, our unsuccessful attempts to get the Minister to heed the request of the Aotearoa New Zealand Association of Social Workers and the Tangata Whenua Social Workers Association to go once again to four years instead of two years. She is totally ignoring that, and, in her own wisdom, insisting that we stick with the two years, and today saying it will affect a very small number of people, yet the evidence that I have in front of me is that is an increasing number of M\u0101ori social workers. As we know, social workers provide a really important service to our most vulnerable, and, as we\u2019ve heard in debates earlier in the House this afternoon, with 7,000 more children likely to be in poverty from one single action of this Government this afternoon, we know that M\u0101ori are impacted in many of the areas that require social work services, and so I am disappointed that the Minister did not heed the request and advice of these organisations and extended it out to the four years. So we are supporting the bill this evening, but are disappointed that the Minister did not take that advice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022 data-id=\u00224b0b0c560c1146d58f2a7c803b056971\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b0b0c560c1146d58f2a7c803b056971\u0022\u003EGREG FLEMING (National\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E T\u014Dku tino pai ki te t\u016B i t\u0113nei Whare an\u014D, me te t\u016B me te tautoko i t\u0113nei pire. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003EKo te tuatahi e mihi ana ki ng\u0101 tauwhiro, ng\u0101 social workers, e tautoko, e manaaki i ng\u0101 t\u0101ngata katoa puta noa i te motu nei e p\u0101 ai te mate h\u014Dh\u0101, mate m\u0101nukanuka, me te mate hinengaro hoki. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003EKo te ingoa o \u201Csocial worker\u201D i te reo M\u0101ori, t\u0113nei ingoa ataahua \u201Ctauwhiro\u201D, e rua ng\u0101 w\u0101hi o taua kupu. M\u014D te \u201Cwhiro\u201D, ko Whiro-te-tipua is a tama a Ranginui r\u0101ua ko Papat\u016B\u0101nuku, me te kupu \u201Ctau\u201D is the verb for \u201Csettles\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003E[I am very happy to stand again in this House, and to stand in support of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003EFirstly, I\u2019d like to acknowledge the social workers that support and care for all people all across this country with respect to harassment, anxiety, and mental health also. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003EThe name for \u201Csocial worker\u201D in the M\u0101ori language, this beautiful name \u201Ctauwhiro\u201D, there are two parts to this word. For \u201Cwhiro\u201D, Whiro-te-tipua is a child of Ranginui and Papat\u016B\u0101nuku, and the word \u201Ctau\u201D is the verb for \u201Csettles\u201D.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003ETherefore, a tauwhiro is someone who literally settles the evil, the darkness, the death that is around. N\u014D reira kei te mihi ki ng\u0101 t\u0101ngata katoa e mahi i \u0113nei momo mahi.\u00A0\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003E[So I acknowledge all of the people that are engaged in this type of work.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003ESection 13 of the Social Workers Registration Act 2003, and it\u2019s been well-covered in the various stages of this debate, was a pathway to provide an alternative registration process for those people who hadn\u2019t gone through the formal qualifications but who did have extensive experience in this area of work. I had the pleasure in just my second week being a member of Parliament for Maungakiekie of meeting with a social worker who had come into the registration through this pathway. So she was a kuia, she was working specifically with M\u0101ori communities in the wider T\u0101maki-makau-rau area for one of our local hospitals, and she had extensive m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori. So she was the kind of person, the exemplar, for why this pathway was established, and it was a delight and an encouragement to hear of her ability to be able to stay in this workforce that otherwise could so easily have alienated her. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003EAt the same time, my conversations with both her and with many friends of mine who both work for and, in a couple of cases, actually run major social work agencies. One of them is the largest private foster-care agency in the country\u2014a long-term childhood friend of mine from the Wairarapa\u2014right through to the work of the organisation in M\u0101ngere, Te Whare Ruruhau o Meri. These and others said to me that they supported section 13. They also supported it coming to an end for the very purpose that the registration process was set up in the first place. They and many others believed that certainly a two-year extension was sufficient. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003ESo I acknowledge and hear the concerns from the Opposition, but I am well-convinced from other people, the experts within the sector, that two minutes\u2014sorry, two years\u2014ironic, two minutes is not enough, but two years is. Two years is sufficient for extending this piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003ECan I just also take the opportunity, though, to echo some of the suggestions that have been made in other parts of the House, as well, for us to look, as a Parliament, at providing other pathways to entering the social work agency. We have 700 vacancies at the moment, and the reality of it is that there are many, many people who would love to enter this workforce, but the current process\u2014what will be the process in two years\u2019 time of between three and four years of full-time qualification\u2014is beyond them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003ESo I wonder if we might consider things such as a postgraduate diploma\u2014that was the pathway through which my own wife entered the counselling profession recently, being able to build on her previous work, actually in the nutrition sector. Similarly, in terms of a number of my friends who are recently looking for a mid-life change and wanting to do something more meaningful in terms of their careers and decided to do no higher calling than to enter the teaching profession, and they, again, were able to do a postgraduate diploma of one year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003ECan I also add to that a plea that we consider paid placements as well. That\u2019s something that could work not only in the social work and the counselling agency but potentially also in the likes of nursing and others.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003EFinally, can I acknowledge the evolution of this legislation and this framework over successive Governments. This is something that has been in play now for nearly seven years\u2014seven years where there has been magnificent progress made towards the professionalisation of the social work agency and recognising the incredible role of those tauwhiro, who support those individuals, those wh\u0101nau, those hap\u016B, and those hapori who are most struggling in our country. It is my great pleasure to commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022058cf0afb2ce407ebadf248cf652a3e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022058cf0afb2ce407ebadf248cf652a3e0\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a five-minute split call\u2014the Rt Hon Adrian Rurawhe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022 data-id=\u00229887bfed602e49428fc4c731861e810e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229887bfed602e49428fc4c731861e810e\u0022\u003ERt Hon ADRIAN RURAWHE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te M\u0101ngai, otir\u0101 ki a t\u0101tou katoa i whiriwhiri i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero m\u014D t\u0113nei pire i t\u0113nei w\u0101. N\u014D reira t\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003E[Thank you to the Speaker, indeed to all of us who have discussed the statements about this bill at this time. And so greetings to all of us.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to join with colleagues around the House, first of all, to acknowledge the importance of social workers in our everyday lives in Aotearoa. In particular, I think back on not even the last decade but even further, and, quite often, social workers have been used sometimes within politics, to often batter them around what\u2019s happening in places like Oranga Tamariki and in other organisations. I think this Chamber should always take care not to do that. My thoughts around it, picking up on what a number of MPs\u2014I think every single member that has spoken on this bill about the lived experiences of some social workers to be registered that do not have academic qualifications to do so but they have a whole lot of lived experiences and a whole lot of skills that ought to be valued.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EI suppose my big question about this is trying to understand what the country gains by only having a two-year period as opposed to a four-year period, and what we potentially lose. We\u2019re probably not going to know that until two years from now in 2026, whether those 700 places have been filled and whether or not they could have been filled by people who are currently practising but who have not got the relevant qualifications to be able to be registered on any other pathway. So that\u2019s my basis for wanting to talk about this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003EI was involved in Maatua Wh\u0101ngai in the 1990s. I don\u2019t even know if Maatua Wh\u0101ngai still operates around the country, but they were certainly still operating in the 1990s. The organisations that I worked with were all either volunteers or they were paid employees that did not have academic qualifications. The interesting thing for me is that these people were quite often very well regarded within their communities. Of course, Maatua Wh\u0101ngai, they were all M\u0101ori. I remember those young adults that were training to be social workers, a number of those institutes would send their students to those Maatua Wh\u0101ngai to learn how to be a social worker and, more importantly, to learn how to work with M\u0101ori, because we all know\u2014and we\u2019ve all seen the statistics\u2014that within that field of work, there are many, many shortcomings for social workers who work in mainstream who did not have the skills to be able to help M\u0101ori wh\u0101nau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a434482b-7ac1-4862-9ce7-13e63289dee3\u0022\u003ETherefore, that\u2019s the main thing that I want to say. An additional two years could well have made a big difference. We won\u2019t know that until two years from now. N\u014D reira, t\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u00227ff0a084270c4dfa9a021b5a7a5f3421\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ff0a084270c4dfa9a021b5a7a5f3421\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I rise to make a very short contribution on the Social Workers Registration Legislation Amendment Bill at its third reading, which will soon become law. Since 2021, the Social Workers Registration Act has required all social workers to register with the board, and to be eligible for registration, applicants must have a qualification recognised by that board. However, there is an exception in section 13 which allows an alternative pathway for people with extensive practical experience but without a prescribed qualification to become social workers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThis bill addresses a concern that we have on two hands. One is that we have serious shortage of social workers, and we have heard this afternoon from many contributions to this House the huge value that the country and that this House has with our social workers, who provide a very important function in our communities, often dealing with the most vulnerable people dealing with some of the most difficult moments in their lives. They help those people, and that\u2019s something that we wish them to do, but we wish to make sure that people have the relevant experience and/or qualifications to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EPresently, we are wanting to ensure the public trust and confidence in the social work profession is there, which is the aim of that legislation I mentioned at the beginning, which is the purpose of having a change to mandatory qualifications. However, recognising that we are 700 social workers short as we speak, at least\u2014that\u2019s the understanding\u2014we\u2019re changing this to give a two-year buffer for this experience pathway to exist as it currently does, to balance that need to account for the current shortage of workers while promoting a timely transition to mandatory qualifications to enhance that public trust and confidence in the social work profession. Also, that two years will provide time for entry pathways into the social work sector to be considered and, potentially, broadened.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ESo this is a good amendment that takes into account the practical realities of our present time. I would, before I finally commend this to the House, just once again thank all those who work in this profession throughout the country. They really do contribute a huge amount to our communities, and I thank them on behalf of my community and our communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u00220b0cafc2714e4a92bbda89624db0ca8c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b0cafc2714e4a92bbda89624db0ca8c\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I\u2019d like to begin my contribution this evening by acknowledging two amazing w\u0101hine toa, Sina Latu and Suliana Ika, who are involved in the mahi that we are discussing with this piece of legislation tonight. They work very hard for the community of South Canterbury, providing social worker services, and I just want to acknowledge them tonight. I\u2019d also like to acknowledge all others involved in that work in the social worker sector, because what they do is work with such a diverse range of people\u2014some of our most vulnerable people with some extremely complex issues. I can imagine it would not always be an easy sector or profession to work in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EI am pleased to speak in support of this legislation, but I too want to express my disappointment that the Minister\u2014as was mentioned by Hon Willow-Jean Prime\u2014in her wisdom, chose to change the extension to a two-year extension only. As my colleague Adrian Rurawhe said, what will the country be missing out on by not having a four-year extension in order for people to register as social workers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EWe know that prior to 2021, registering as a social worker was voluntary. I think that this is the right thing to do to ensure that social workers are seen as a profession. When you study for such a long time to gain your qualification, it is important that all social workers are registered, just as it is important in the teaching profession that all teachers become registered in order to have that profession and the acknowledgment of their study recognised, but also so that the people that they work with have greater protections as well with the social workers that they are dealing with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard that there are the two pathways, obviously, to becoming a registered social worker: one through a registered training organisation and a recognised qualification, but also through the experience pathway. And I think the experience pathway is an extremely valuable way for people to become registered social workers because it gives an opportunity that perhaps may not otherwise have been available to them. If I look at people who, perhaps, maybe have been working in the sector for some time but are unable to go through that formal study because of the expense of it, this is an opportunity to allow people to gain their qualification and recognition and registration through this pathway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EWe also know that with the pay equity extension out there, it looks to increase the pay of around 5,000 people. I think this is also an incentive for those who\u2019ve been working within the sector to perhaps want to become a registered social worker when they can see that there is the pay incentive. They\u2019ll have professional development paid for, their registration\u2019s paid for annually, and things like that. So I think that that is a really great way of incentivising people to become a registered social worker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EThe Hon Willow-Jean Prime mentioned about the increasing recognition of the value of indigenous te ao M\u0101ori practice in social work with the experience pathway supports. And the Minister, in her contribution, mentioned that it was only a small percentage of people that were using the pathway that identified as M\u0101ori, and quite rightly, as the Hon Willow-Jean Prime pointed out, that has increased quite significantly. And what we do know is, with the shortage of at least 700 social workers across the country, which was in 2022\u2014which may well be more by now\u2014that there is a large proportion that are needed that are Pasifika, that are M\u0101ori, that are disabled, etc. It\u2019s important that these people have the opportunity to come through this experience pathway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EI also agree with words that have been spoken on this side of the House that I think it\u2019s unfortunate that perhaps the Minister didn\u2019t think a bit more longer term in that we may well find ourselves back here in a couple of years because we still haven\u2019t been able to address that workforce issue in people registering to become social workers because the two years has been not enough time to enable them to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003ESo I am pleased to support this piece of legislation. It is really great when we have legislation that comes through the House that all parties across the House can support the kaupapa of, but it is very disappointing that it has been reduced to two years and not four years, as was in the initial piece of legislation. So I commend this bill to the House, but do express my disappointment. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022 data-id=\u00223e8d57f305994148aced0d337631a250\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e8d57f305994148aced0d337631a250\u0022\u003ERIMA NAKHLE (National\u2014Takanini):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to this bill that we\u2019ve been discussing, the Social Workers Registration Legislation Amendment Bill. I would also like to start by acknowledging a few people that have done tremendous mahi in this milieu. I\u2019d like to acknowledge Sharon Wilson-Davis from STRIVE Community Trust and her team there. Now, STRIVE Community Trust, for the benefit of anyone that hasn\u2019t come across this organisation before, they are, essentially, a social wraparound service, and the backbone of this service is their social workers. I\u2019ve come to experience what they do, STRIVE, and the excellent social workers they have, through my work at Te Mahia Community Village, which I\u2019ve spoken about before, the emergency and transitional housing facility in Takanini that I\u2019ve worked with. Now, truly, social workers are unsung heroes. The amount of care and compassion that they put into the delicate work a lot of them find themselves in is commendable. So I would like to acknowledge STRIVE. I would like to acknowledge the work you do, Sharon, and all your team.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003EI come from a family of workers in the mental health arena, including my sister, who\u2019s a mental health nurse specialist, and my second sister, who\u2019s a psychologist. I also see how beneficial work in the mental health space is. So what this bill is doing is that we are saying, yes, we agree\u2014that is, the Government and most of us in the House\u2014that there needs to be another pathway to being qualified as a social worker. Currently, there\u2019s two pathways. There\u2019s the traditional sense of becoming registered with a traditional form of qualification\u2014that\u2019s a prescribed form of qualification\u2014and then there\u2019s the alternative experience pathway, which we\u2019ve been speaking about today. In 2017, the Government of the day agreed to remove this, but we\u2019ve since said we need to delay this removal for a number of factors, two of them being COVID and, recently, the cyclones. This really exacerbated the need to have social workers available, and so therefore we said, \u201CLook, we\u2019ve got to delay scrapping this pathway until we kind of find that we fill up those gaps.\u201D, because, as we\u2019ve said, there\u2019s currently a gap of about 700 social workers. Unfortunately, the supply continues to decrease\u2014as I said, it\u2019s been exacerbated by the recent events of the last few years\u2014so delaying will ensure that this additional pathway to qualification is temporarily available. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003ENow, there\u2019s k\u014Drero going around about whether it should be two years more or four years more. The amendment that the Hon Louise Upston has put forward is that this be for two years. What I would like to highlight\u2014something that hasn\u2019t really been highlighted in the course of our conversations today\u2014is that all applications submitted before the repeal date of 28 February 2026 will continue to be processed by the Social Workers Registration Board. So I think it\u2019s really important to just highlight that fact. I know that there\u2019s some concern from the other side of the House about the time frame going from four years to two years, and that\u2019s why I would like to reiterate that we need to remember something that\u2019s available, which is that applications submitted before the cut-off date will continue to be processed. That\u2019s an important point to really make. I just feel that sometimes when we make arguments, we shouldn\u2019t be omitting certain points.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve recognised that the four years was just a little bit too long and it could impact on public trust and confidence in the social work profession. My colleague Greg Fleming, he\u2019s a gentleman that really puts himself in a lot of these fields, and he said that he, as well, has had a number of conversations with professionals in this field who also told them that, look, two years is that good kind of Goldilocks balance in terms of what we\u2019re dealing with here today. Two years balances the need to account for the current shortage of social workers while promoting a timely transition to mandatory qualifications.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003EWhat I also would like to raise today is that, yes, as I said earlier, the unsung heroes, social workers\u2014something I feel needs to be said to anyone listening today, something that my sister says, and she\u2019s, as I said, a psychologist, so it\u2019s in that milieu of mental health work, is: don\u2019t be afraid to go and seek help. Don\u2019t be embarrassed and don\u2019t be shy, because a lot can come out of seeking help. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022aa09a2156c644e54908813b5327d9bac\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002236356d60b8564019b3f465175f608fe6\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022025709cdc4de42c4bf8904ecf7833a83\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022025709cdc4de42c4bf8904ecf7833a83\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Minister for Regulation):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That urgency be accorded the introduction and first reading of the Misuse of Drugs (Pseudoephedrine) Amendment Bill, the introduction and the first and second readings of the Legal Services Amendment Bill, and the introduction and passing through all stages of the Land Transport Management (Repeal of Regional Fuel Tax) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThe purpose of moving urgency this evening is to further necessary actions within the coalition Government\u2019s 100-day plan. These include the legislation beginning the sale of pseudoephedrine, the removal of funding for section 27 reports, and the repeal of the Auckland regional fuel tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022148991e0cdea4b0fa5a29aeeb461a687\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That urgency be accorded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225f527a7a2f534da3aa80d35550a5c1be\u0022\u003EIntroduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224e7d5ddb0949413dba6ed2e573c9ed14\u0022\u003EIntroduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022523ad2e90f424fa88b3d969f6f408d42\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022523ad2e90f424fa88b3d969f6f408d42\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I understand it\u2019s the intention of the Government to introduce three bills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022a8abbd24b8da44afa6a93390d6f1fac1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a8abbd24b8da44afa6a93390d6f1fac1\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EMisuse of Drugs (Pseudoephedrine) Amendment Bill, introduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ELegal Services Amendment Bill, introduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ELand Transport Management (Repeal of Regional Fuel Tax) Amendment Bill, introduction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002202c078a44c5e46e685ef967c447347d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002202c078a44c5e46e685ef967c447347d5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Legal Services Amendment Bill and the Land Transport Management (Repeal of Regional Fuel Tax) Amendment Bill are set down for first reading presently. The Misuse of Drugs (Pseudoephedrine) Amendment Bill is set down for first reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002202c8144723604d2d9d2c18e0ec2637d9\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cdc9f2d7a08e43f0bdb91936b52b6280\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022ff4ed0206040476f82676ad1afe98440\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ff4ed0206040476f82676ad1afe98440\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Minister for Regulation):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, point of order. I seek leave for the House to adjourn three minutes early before the dinner break.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022effe813d052d4b9ca0c74c7eb7d552cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022effe813d052d4b9ca0c74c7eb7d552cc\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There is provision for that. Leave is sought. Is there any objection to that course? There appears to be none. The House is adjourned until 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 5.57 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002292dd0294675c447e839fd295ecd3e060\u0022\u003EMisuse of Drugs (Pseudoephedrine) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d432ad212e734790a7c36d1e3a3b6d0a\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022d3e3ae91c2ae4e939a4270ec1043386f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d3e3ae91c2ae4e939a4270ec1043386f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Associate Minister of Health (Pharmac)):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, thank you very much, and if you\u2019ll excuse me for one second, I was just reading some of the finer points of this beautiful bill before I found the part I need to read in order to ensure that it is correctly read. And that is: I present a legislative statement on the Misuse of Drugs (Pseudoephedrine) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcc6fa481e88408b9dc3d270986b385d\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b26042dcdafd4dff9061f9b11e2347c6\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I move, That the Misuse of Drugs (Pseudoephedrine) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Health Committee to consider the bill. At the appropriate time, I intend to move that the bill be reported to the House by 14 March 2024 and that the committee have authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting (except during oral questions), during any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, and outside the Wellington area, despite Standing Orders 193, 195, and 196.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThis is a very simple piece of legislation, but it also will have significant effects and benefits for New Zealanders, particularly in flu season. The purpose of this bill is to restore access to cold and flu medicines containing pseudoephedrine. Prior to 2011, these medicines were available to purchase from New Zealand pharmacies. In 2011, however, pseudoephedrine was reclassified as a class B2 controlled drug under the Misuse of Drugs Act. Effectively, this change meant that cold and flu medicines containing pseudoephedrine could only be accessed with a prescription from a registered medical practitioner. As a result of these restrictions, pharmaceutical companies withdrew from the New Zealand market, and New Zealanders can no longer access these very effective medicines for very annoying ailments, particularly during the winter flu seasons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThe bill itself, as I\u2019ve said, is straightforward. It changes the classification of pseudoephedrine from a class B2 drug, as it is currently listed in the Misuse of Drugs Act, to a class C3 controlled drug. This will allow cold and flu medicines containing pseudoephedrine to be sold in New Zealand pharmacies without a prescription. Under the Act, drugs that pose a high risk of harm are classified as class B drugs, and drugs that pose a moderate risk of harm are classified as class C drugs. The classification of pseudoephedrine as a class C controlled drug simultaneously achieves the policy intention behind the bill while retaining the appropriate controls for illicit use. Under the Misuse of Drugs Regulations, class C3 controlled drugs are defined as partially exempted drugs. Partially exempted drugs are exempt from some of the requirements, such as storage requirements, in the regulations that would restrict access to these drugs for therapeutic purposes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThe bill also makes some consequential amendments to the Misuse of Drugs Regulations to ensure consistency with the Act. The Government is also making a change to the Medicines Regulations to classify cold and flu products containing pseudoephedrine as restricted medicines. With this change, customers purchasing these medicines will need to do so by way of a face-to-face transaction with a pharmacist. The pharmacist must record information and can highlight advice as appropriate, including counselling patients who should not take pseudoephedrine for clinical reasons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThe previous ban on selling pseudoephedrine products without a prescription was brought in as pseudoephedrine was being used in the manufacture of methamphetamine, or P, a class A controlled drug. The change, unfortunately, had negligible effects on the overall methamphetamine market in New Zealand, as suppliers simply adapted to the law change, notably by importing more finished product. And, as has been reported in the New Zealand Herald, the networks that New Zealand gangs fostered as they created those new supply chains has arguably increased the sophistication of organised crime in New Zealand and had quite significant negative impacts on New Zealanders during that time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThe classification of pseudoephedrine as a class C3 controlled drug will ensure that customs and police retain the necessary powers to control its illicit use. You\u2019ll need a licence to import or export products containing pseudoephedrine, so customs will be able to seize unlicensed importations. These border controls will also ensure that available products containing pseudoephedrine are of a high quality. Some groups have raised concerns that pharmacies will become targets for ram raid - style burglaries and aggravated robberies by those involved in the manufacture of methamphetamine. It should be noted that there is no requirement for pharmacists to stock these products and that there are measures available to pharmacists to prevent retail crime. And it\u2019s worth noting that not only is it voluntary to stock these products but pharmacies presently stock other products that some people might like to steal. To buy into the logic that a legitimate business should not stock a product by choice because they are intimidated by criminals I think is a commentary on where New Zealand has got to in terms of retail crime rather than a pragmatic response. If people are going to commit crimes, the answer is to punish the people committing the crime, not every New Zealander with a cold and flu.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EI further add that medicines containing pseudoephedrine are used worldwide for their effective relief of cold and flu symptoms. This bill strikes the balance between giving consumers access to a useful medicine and enabling law enforcement to curb the manufacture of methamphetamine, the two goals in balance under this new law. As a result, New Zealanders will be able to breathe easier\u2014literally\u2014knowing that they can effectively treat their cold and flu symptoms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EI want to just mention that I\u2019ve had an interesting experience today dealing with media asking about all of the terrible things that could go wrong. I think, unfortunately, it is a sad commentary on some of the worst of New Zealand that we are so focused\u2014we are a country that appears to be afraid of the implications of cough medicine, if you listen to some in the mainstream media. All we are doing is trying to make life easier and more comfortable for New Zealanders by removing restrictions on their freedoms. All we are doing is ensuring that the rules around cold and cough medicine in New Zealand will be nearly identical to Australia and nearly indistinguishable from those in other countries such as the United Kingdom, the United States, and Canada, countries where people can go into their pharmacy and buy some effective cold and cough medicine if they have the winter chills and the winter ills. That is what we are seeking to do, and I think it\u2019s an important commentary on New Zealand, and particularly the state of our media and some commentators, that we actually weigh the costs and benefits of our decisions rather than constantly beating ourselves up with more rules, more restrictions, because of the \u201Cwhat-ifers\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EFor those that are concerned, as I\u2019ve said, pharmacies are not required to sell these pharmaceuticals. It is a choice, and if people make that choice, then it is the responsibility of the New Zealand State to protect people\u2019s basic right to buy and sell legal products, whether they\u2019re a dairy with tobacco, whether they are a pharmacy with metham\u2014oh, sorry, with pseudoephedrine; we certainly would not be protecting them if they were selling that\u2014or whether it is any other business, whether it is a timber yard selling building supplies. Our responsibility is to have a society and uphold the law in a society where people are able to get on with their lawful business and, when crimes are committed, ensure that we punish them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003ESo, without further ado and the risk of any further a gaffe, I will conclude this speech and look forward to hearing the debate and which of the other parties in Parliament are willing to support this small movement towards rational lawmaking, common sense, and making life easier for New Zealanders, balancing the risks and rewards of decisions, and allowing people to live on their own terms. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022c08945062d0e4178bf8822a75407f3da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c08945062d0e4178bf8822a75407f3da\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f9f5a8ef84c54da89df7fe3d2db2aa0f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f9f5a8ef84c54da89df7fe3d2db2aa0f\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, thank you. It\u2019s a pleasure to take a call on this bill to amend the Misuse of Drugs Act to reclassify pseudoephedrine as a class C3 drug from a class B2 drug, thereby, along with the changes to how pseudoephedrine is regulated under the Medicines Act, making the medicine available over the counter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EI too have responded to media queries, like the Associate Minister of Health (Pharmac) has today, and it is interesting to me that after being involved in the COVID response, some journalists have taken a peculiar interest in my health and when I last had a case of the sniffles. It\u2019s been over 10 years since I used pseudoephedrine for a cough and cold because, obviously, it wasn\u2019t available after 2011, but I did, and I have to say I liked it. As a medicine for a common cough and cold, it is OK, it is good\u2014studies bear that out. It has some side effects, like cardiac side effects, but it\u2019s useful for the treatment of common coughs and colds. Sensible measures to make medicines that are convenient for common symptoms should be promoted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EAs a Government, the Labour Party really led a number of initiatives to change that, to improve the ability of our pharmacies to give treatments for common conditions. This included the minor ailments scheme that we brought in over winter to make sure that common conditions, even as simple as nits or skin conditions, could be treated by pharmacies conveniently without having to go for a prescription to a doctor, thereby taking work away from overburdened general practitioners and making conditions be resolved more quickly. In addition, we brought in changes that meant a number of vaccines could be given in pharmacies where they weren\u2019t before. We support these types of practical changes that make medicine more accessible to people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EBut there is another dimension to pseudoephedrine and that is that one of the reasons why we like to take it for coughs and colds is actually in the heart of what its downside is: it also has stimulatory effects, it also peps us up when we\u2019re feeling sick and run down and shivery, and that allows us to keep doing all the things we have to do in our busy life. It\u2019s that characteristic, as well as its good effects as a decongestant, that giving you that little bit of pep, that is the same characteristic that means it\u2019s also a drug of abuse and can be used to produce methamphetamine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EThat was why, in 2009, John Key\u2019s National Government brought in changes to the regulations that restricted the sale of meth\u2014the ones we\u2019re debating today and the Medicines Act changes. I want to share some of the quotes that John Key made at the time, and it gets back to this very issue of the dual properties of pseudoephedrine: \u201CWhat seems like straightforward pain and symptom relief to you and me is gold to a drug cook. It\u2019s just about all a first time P cook needs to get their drug enterprise started.\u201D He went on to say \u201Cit\u2019s a $1.5 billion problem, it\u2019s wrecking lives and it\u2019s wrecking families,... As a parent I can tell you \u2026 obviously you worry about your children.\u201D And he made no apologies for how tough he was going to be: it\u2019s \u201Cwhy [this Government] \u2026 come[s] at the problem from all directions. By cracking down on precursors, breaking supply chains, providing better routes into treatment,\u201D and so on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003ESo my question in addressing this bill, and I think what the Parliament and the Health Committee needs to turn its mind to, is: what\u2019s changed? Meth hasn\u2019t gone away, are we giving up on this issue? How do we evaluate these very valid safety concerns that communities, and pharmacies in particular, have?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003ENow, the Minister has said that this will be unlikely to impact the supply of methamphetamine in New Zealand. Well, it will have an effect on pharmacies. For over a decade, they will have not been the targets of ram raids due to pseudoephedrine, and they could be once again. I haven\u2019t heard compelling evidence that there are reasons why that won\u2019t be the case. It\u2019s very important for us to be able to go over that evidence at select committee. Pharmacists have raised the issue of whether or not they can access registers in order to make sure that we can pick up on instances of abuse if that happens. It\u2019s not clear to me if the restricted classification of the medicines will lead to a register being in place. We need the chance also to hear from drug experts, addiction specialists, and pharmacologists. The Labour Party will be supporting this bill to the Health Committee. We think it has some merits, but we have many questions as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u0022af29f093633b4b279b57b2bc1f4eb36f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af29f093633b4b279b57b2bc1f4eb36f\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Green\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E E te M\u0101ngai, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. Drugs are winning the war on drugs. We know, if you look at the evidence\u2014as this Government has promised us that we would\u2014that at both ends of extremes, that being in criminal prohibition or in a complete legal free market, you have the maximisation of harms when it comes to substances. That\u2019s because, whether you\u2019re talking about a scenario where you have those who operate in criminal organisations who control the supply chains, or those who operate in commercial entities controlling the supply chains, you have the maximisation of harm because profit is the key motive. The way that you go about pulling back from those extremes of harms is through sensible regulation. I am proud to stand here as a member of the Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand who is the only party who have been consistent\u2014whether it\u2019s alcohol, tobacco, cannabis, pseudoephedrine, or otherwise\u2014on substances. All of the arguments that we heard from the Minister just now with regard to cost-benefit analysis, with regard to people\u2019s freedoms or otherwise, apply to the logic that we need to overhaul this Frankenstein law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo let\u2019s unpack precisely why this law is so Frankenstein and, actually, in fact, some of the self-perpetrating perverse mechanisms that exist within the Misuse of Drugs Act 1975. The first is the expert advisory committee which was established in the early 2000s with the intention to advise where substances should be classified within the Misuse of Drugs Act, and the penalties that should be associated to them. The only recommendations that the expert advisory committee can make about where substances should be classified is where they should be classified in reference to other substances that are currently already classified, and therefore we bind this expert advisory committee to, effectively, only make recommendation about what penalties these substances should carry\u2014not about more meaningful harm intervention approaches.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EHere I just offer to members of the Government who are interested or who may be interested in their decisions being based on data and evidence, as their coalition agreements say they will be\u2014I\u2019d refer them to the 2014 Ministerial Forum on Alcohol Advertising and Sponsorship, which said that we need to do away with alcohol advertising and sponsorship. I\u2019d refer them to He Ara Oranga, the mental health and addiction inquiry, which said that we need to move to decriminalise substances so that we can enable a harm reduction approach. I point them to Turuki! Turuki!, the safe and effective justice review, which actually said that we need to go a step further and look to legalise the supply chain of certain substances, so to remove them from the hands of criminal organisations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EI would also just refer to something which is implicit within this legislation that we are debating at the first reading today, and that is when it comes to the process and the way that the Misuse of Drugs Act operates with regard to classification, in order to introduce a substance for classification, and therefore for associated penalties within the Misuse of Drugs Act, all you need to do is pass an Order in Council. For those who are following along at home, that process is incredibly quick. It can pass through in the blink of an eye in this place\u2014although, the Greens do force a debate on it every second time, and, ironically, the last time that this went through, we actually got some time from the ACT Party to prosecute our case. But in order to down-classify or to declassify a substance, you need an entire amendment bill, and therefore the select committee process that comes with it, and that can take anywhere from a few months to a year-plus, and, obviously, all of the potential for fearmongering and moral panic that come with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo the point of unpacking this is to point out the ways that this law\u2014this dog of a law\u2014perpetuates injustices and anti-evidence outcomes for our community, much to the detriment, actually, of the public purse. For members of the National Party, in particular, let alone members of the ACT Party, who profess to be libertarians despite showcasing that it is relatively\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022854aff4d9f1f43ef8ae853aa29a433b2\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, I really hesitate to interrupt the member in the middle of a speech\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211284d9f3339454f88ec9f3b4190511e\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK\u003C/span\u003E: No, you don\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8d4bfa112564e0e8b05cef25e37bd05\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: You do it all the time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228da3a42ed9cd43dea0f3441d46d082a1\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014but, with the greatest of respect\u2014and points of order have to be heard in silence, for those still learning the rules\u2014many members, including me, have been pulled up by many Speakers many times for, effectively, giving a general debate speech that has nothing to do with the bill. Trying to tangentially link to the bill every few minutes while making a speech that in substance is about totally different policy questions that aren\u2019t actually a question before the House has been pulled up by every other Speaker every time that it\u2019s been tried. I hope that you\u2019ll think about that in this instance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002214443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227dd4cc5641294d1baac1659d5c68059d\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: I take the Minister\u2019s point, but I do recognise that many of us, including myself, are not experts in pseudoephedrine or drugs at all. So I will give the member her remaining minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228e9131418de4209b57a692b8d6d5a26\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Fresh point of order. Mr Speaker, do you intend to make a new ruling that if the Speaker or the member have no expertise on a question, they can speak about anything else they like? That would be an extraordinary ruling for a Speaker to make.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a68fb8fd96bb44cba9253c2ac4c56141\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, Mr Speaker. What this bill seeks to do is to down-classify a substance. What I am doing in my speech is speaking to precisely that mechanism and the inconsistencies with the way that one might introduce a new substance for classification. It is specifically pertinent to the operation of the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6d1babaf20d4e698f8b17b028aef09d\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc096b38eb38480cb74e047990463455\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. So referring back to exactly what it is that I was unpacking here, which is data and evidence and many of the points that the Minister put forward in his very precious speech, it is the fact that there are inconsistencies in the way that we go about introducing substances for classification which require us just to pass an Order in Council through this House, which can occur in the blink of an eye. But in order for us to down-classify or to declassify a substance, we need an entire amendment bill. That fundamentally entrenches an anti-evidence approach to substances in this country. That leaves us, actually, with the conclusion, as raised by the Minister himself in his introductory remarks, that we are miles away from the jurisdictions which he himself compared us to\u2014to Australia, to the United States, to Canada, and to otherwise, where they are moving light years ahead of us with a far more evidence-based approach to substances, and that\u2019s something the Greens will continue to push for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022 data-id=\u0022d99a9959006f4c4db2492a9ecabe7be0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d99a9959006f4c4db2492a9ecabe7be0\u0022\u003ESAM UFFINDELL (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise to support this bill. We know that prescriptions are currently required to access products containing pseudoephedrine, but manufacturers have allowed their product approvals to lapse, so there\u2019s currently no pseudoephedrine products available in New Zealand. These tighter controls have not affected the overall supply of methamphetamine in New Zealand. So this bill reclassifies pseudoephedrine from a class B to a class C controlled drug, which allows for the sale of pseudoephedrine-based products for cold and flu without a prescription. It is an effective medicine, and allowing this will enable people who have a cold and a flu to improve their health and wellbeing. I support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u0022e5e527862b534d39b6b747db5513b365\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e5e527862b534d39b6b747db5513b365\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to speak in support of this bill and applaud the Minister for taking initiative to improve the lives of New Zealanders. As a family who suffers significantly from respiratory illnesses, having something that will alleviate this congestion in winter time will be excellent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, the environment under which we currently live has changed significantly from when pseudoephedrine was re-classified. Unfortunately, there is a massive import of completed methamphetamine products into New Zealand, a rising crime trend that we need to combat. The pseudoephedrine is no longer the threat that it was at the time that it was re-classified. Therefore, I think it highly appropriate that we put New Zealanders, and the conditions that New Zealanders face during winter, at the forefront of our decision making. I support the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u0022e170bebf7f764212b8e2664702ceaf63\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e170bebf7f764212b8e2664702ceaf63\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I\u2019m cautiously supportive of this bill, because I do think we need flexibility in relation to medicines and how people can access them, and I\u2019m really mindful of the fact that as soon as there is a prescriptions regime or people need to see a doctor, that is automatically a barrier for our poorest, our most vulnerable, or people who are just having to make hard choices about where they spend their money. So if we don\u2019t need to regulate it, then perhaps we shouldn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EBut I do think there is a risk of organised crime exploiting this law change, and I think it will have impacts on two discrete groups really. One is pharmacists. It was good to hear the Minister say that pharmacists won\u2019t be obliged to carry these medicines, although I think the fact they can opt in will have some perhaps unintended consequences about how people self-select and what that will mean for those that do and those that don\u2019t but also for the most vulnerable communities, because despite the fact that there is evidence that there are these big drug cartels bringing methamphetamine in finished form into New Zealand, there will still be people in New Zealand who cannot afford to pay that premium and who would prefer to do the home-made option despite the difficulties with this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESo I think it is a bold claim for the Minister and the Government members to say that this problem is now in the past. One of the reasons the problem is in the past is because of the legislative change. So taking this to select committee, I think, will be a good way to explore what has caused the shift in the production and supply of methamphetamine and what the outcome will be of this law change. I do take note of the words of Ng\u0101i Te Rangi chief executive Paora Stanley, who has said in the New Zealand Herald that the drug was taken off the shelves to keep gangs away from it and this will only exacerbate the impact on M\u0101ori. So it is a bold statement by the Government, and it\u2019s interesting that the Government don\u2019t seem to be that worried about potential crime and ram raids and other things that might happen to these opt-in pharmacies, because they are not going to limit the number of pharmacies who will be able to supply and, in fact, they\u2019ve said that pharmacies can opt in. Will those pharmacies that opt in then become magnets for crime? I\u2019m not sure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThat was the language that was used around the proposed repeal of\u2014well, the repeal of the smoke-free legislation, so there seems to be a bit of an inconsistent application of rationale here, because, on one hand, with smoke-free, the Government is saying, \u201CWe are interested in crime; we\u2019re interested in the impacts and the way gangs will use this, and therefore we\u2019re not going to make particular shops magnets of crime.\u201D; and then, on the other hand, they\u2019ve had no regard to any kind of argument around that when it comes to pseudoephedrine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EOne of the things that\u2019s interesting to me is\u2014well, one of the things I\u2019ve learnt today, actually\u2014is that pseudoephedrine, we know, treats colds and colds are viral but, actually, what it really treats are the symptoms of colds. Apparently, it also treats the symptoms of hangovers, which might make it immediately more popular, but it doesn\u2019t treat the causes of colds, and so there are other mechanisms available, and my colleague the Hon Dr Ayesha Verrall alluded to the fact that there is a kind of peppiness to the use of pseudoephedrine. So there are other things available that can be used.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EI\u2019m concerned about the groups of pharmacies that will opt into the scheme, because if there are too few of them, they will become identified really quickly, and they will be known as the pseudoephedrine pharmacies. And, therefore, will those pharmacists\u2014like one of them who\u2019s been in the media, Warren Flaunty; he\u2019s mentioned that he\u2019s been burgled at least a dozen times per year for pseudoephedrine\u2014be targeted? Will they be identified? If there is a regime where people accessing the drug have to apply and write their name on a register and so on, will that put the pharmacist in a difficult position? How uncomfortable will that be? And will that mean that many pharmacies will just go, \u201CThis is not worth it. It\u2019s too difficult for us.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESo, in summary, I think, if there is a safe way to deregulate, of course we don\u2019t want to regulate when there\u2019s no need to. It\u2019s a legitimate question to explore\u2014what will the impacts be on methamphetamine? Will there be any impact at all if this medicine is available? I think we need to hear from experts. I think it\u2019s a broader debate, and for that reason, cautiously, I think it\u2019s good to take this bill to the select committee and to have that debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022 data-id=\u0022594809ca739c4602a7cdf0693d4332f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022594809ca739c4602a7cdf0693d4332f5\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019d like to take the call, if that\u2019s OK? Thank you. So, first of all, Minister Seymour has argued that the ban on pseudoephedrine\u2014I\u2019d better make sure I say that right, sorry\u2014has failed, as gangs continue to produce P. Doctors have disputed the Minister\u2019s claims that there are no effective alternatives. In fact, we\u2019ve even had the Waikato GP Dr Jo Scott-Jones say it doesn\u2019t really make sense that we want to increase the risk to society by making that change when an effective medication is already available. I really want to talk about what this change will do and impact on our communities\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227956df6262184ae6b79a5cb2d680a207\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sure the public will make up their mind on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7892648ad7242d49a1ac5f663fc88dc\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER\u003C/span\u003E: And sorry for me speaking while you\u2019re interrupting, David!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003ESo Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori oppose this bill. Meth causes significant harm in communities in Aotearoa, so we have to be really clear on making an example of why we oppose it. It not only affects the individuals but it also causes social harm, including harm on all our wh\u0101nau, all our mokopuna, all our communities. The argument and the rationale that this will make other people\u2019s lives easier, we totally get, to be fair, but that\u2019s assuming that all communities that are currently affected by meth are OK, and they\u2019re not. In fact, probably our biggest worry and concern, again, is that this bill\u2019s offering no alternative solution to approach the meth issue that we have in Aotearoa, predominantly in M\u0101ori communities. It assumes that, actually, there is no deficit position going on with meth in Aotearoa. And what\u2019s worrying is that we ignore, once again, M\u0101ori communities that are hugely impacted by this drug.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s hypocritical that this bill is being prioritised today as the Government\u2019s been taking a real hard approach on addressing crime, and the purpose of this legislation was actually introduced in the first place to tackle the crime and the production of P. It just makes no sense for ACT to be prioritising this when it inevitably leads to more crime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EAlthough our kaum\u0101tua and tamariki are often hit hardest by the cold and flu season and having more access to cold medications could make life easier, our issue, again, is that M\u0101ori communities are also those who bear the full brunt of the meth epidemic. So, again, we question why the bill is being put under urgency. Again, it seems to be for this Government that it\u2019s not just about winter; it\u2019s actually about taking on things that are attacking the vulnerable communities for us as M\u0101ori. Again, we had this whole rhetoric of justifying it, that it\u2019s going to help people get well, but, actually, they\u2019re ignoring the fact that my community and a lot of our communities are simply not well. So if there was a sincere intent from this Government and, indeed, this Minister to make people well, we would start by saying, \u201CFirst and foremost, here\u2019s our commitment to addressing the meth issues that we have in Aotearoa.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re also concerned that the introduction of this legislation will retrigger the crime rates at pharmacies, as we saw in the late 2000s. Officials and pharmacies have warned and warned that allowing the sale will lead to a spike in meth-related crimes. We\u2019ve got retired pharmacists who say that prior to the ban pharmacies were regularly targeted by ram raid - style robberies. So, again, if many pharmacists are saying this and cautioning\u2014and this is their sector; it\u2019s not the politicians\u2019 sector\u2014but there are not many politicians in this House who will sit there and get out on the ground and talk to those communities, as we saw with Paora, who are warning about the spike and what this will mean.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EAgain, what we\u2019ve seen with this bill\u2014and, I guess, some of the things that we\u2019re concerned about is that it\u2019s proposing to do good. We have the Minister here proposing that his interests are for all of Aotearoa, when, in fact, it\u2019s for the privileged who don\u2019t get to live, day in, day out, with the scab of this epidemic and how it is truly affecting our communities. So we caution, again, that we have a Government that turns a blind eye and a deaf ear to its communities that are most affected by these types of legislation. We will not be supporting this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022 data-id=\u00227587280b186845ffab86c23b84989b93\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227587280b186845ffab86c23b84989b93\u0022\u003EDr CARLOS CHEUNG (National\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support the introduction of this bill to this House. This Government is committed to ensuring New Zealanders can access quality healthcare, in this case to access some of the most effective over-the-counter cold and flu medication without the need of a prescription. This bill strikes the balance between enabling New Zealanders to swiftly recover from cold and flu, and limiting public use of pseudoephedrine for the production of methamphetamine. Therefore, I support the bill. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022 data-id=\u00225ba5b77154b84d8d900ba58a9a7a1466\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ba5b77154b84d8d900ba58a9a7a1466\u0022\u003EJAMES MEAGER (National\u2014Rangitata):\u003C/span\u003E Last week was a great day for New Zealanders. Today\u2019s a great day for sniffly New Zealanders, because what this bill does is it allows for the sale of effective cold medicines across the counter at pharmacies who choose to provide it across the country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003EWe used to be able to get pseudoephedrine across the counter. It was prohibited back in 2011 to slow the meth trade. It didn\u2019t work, and so we\u2019re going back to where we\u2019ve come from. I\u2019ll be interested, actually, in the views of the member Greg O\u2019Connor, who knows a lot about this sector and has experience in this part of the world, as well. So I\u2019ll be very interested in his views. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003ENow, members made some comments around crime. We did have the Commissioner of Police before the Justice Committee earlier\u2014last week\u2014and I\u2019ll have to check the transcription, but my recollection was that he said there\u2019d be very little impact on the crime trade. Most of the precursor comes through the border, and so the prime issues are not actually what they may seem.  I commend the bill to the House and look forward to its passage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00220455c5ef3c1d48bfb0acde39de751a28\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220455c5ef3c1d48bfb0acde39de751a28\u0022\u003EGREG O\u2019CONNOR (Labour\u2014\u014Ch\u0101riu):\u003C/span\u003E There\u2019s a book Chasing the Scream, that should be required reading for every member in this House, by a man called Johann Hari. He talks about the evolution of the war on drugs, talks about all sorts of different drugs, and he talks about, of course, Reefer Madness and how so often when we start talking about illegal drugs, in particular, immediately we go to some sort of \u201Creefer madness\u201D. So what we need to do is actually examine some facts around this. In that book, one thing he does talk about is that in societies, countries, jurisdictions that have tried to liberalise drugs, there\u2019s one drug where all the rules they apply really go out the window\u2014and that\u2019s methamphetamine or P. The opiates, generally, we can handle, and all those other drugs, but P is out there on its own. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s interesting that as we make a decision, we really understand the journey\u2014relatively short journey\u2014of this, that we have arrived at New Zealand. Our waste-water testing around New Zealand\u2014big towns, small towns, cities\u2014is showing up vast amounts of methamphetamine. My own hometown, Westport, the locals affectionately call \u201CMethport\u201D. And that\u2019s not an unfamiliar story.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EWhat actually happened in New Zealand? New Zealand had a heroin problem in the 1970s. The Mr Asia syndicate\u2014some of you may have heard of it\u2014was decimated, so was the heroin supply. So we didn\u2019t have a white-powder problem in New Zealand till the early 1980s, or really late 1980s, early 1990s, when the biker gangs\u2014Hells Angels in New Zealand\u2014sat at the top table in the United States; they started bringing the expertise in for this P. I was an undercover police officer, and, in the early days, it was only really speed\u2014it was the biker gangs that used these things; it wasn\u2019t something that was widely used.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EThe difference with methamphetamine and P from every other drug is that it is made up of legal substances that ultimately become illegal when they\u2019re put together. And the commodity was the expertise\u2014the meth cooks, or the chemists, who could make the P. Of course, getting hold of those raw ingredients, the core products, the precursors of methamphetamine\u2014or pseudoephedrine\u2014was the most important factor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003ENow, that brought about a big change in the crime scene in New Zealand because the people who were out doing the shopping for the pills, the pill shoppers, were largely M\u0101ori from the ethnic gangs, or from the Polynesian gangs\u2014they then provided this to the biker gangs. So you then had an amalgam: our crime groups that previously had always been at odds\u2014violent odds, often\u2014then came together. So you actually had the basis of an industry based on pseudoephedrine and other legal substances, things like red phosphorus and acetone\u2014again, all these things were legal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003ESo we then came into the mid-2000s, and I was president of the Police Association at the time\u2014as Ms Costello will know, she was my deputy at the time\u2014and actually police officers were coming to us and telling us there\u2019s been a massive change in the crime scene. The dog handlers were saying, \u201CAll of a sudden, criminals are behaving very differently.\u201D And that was where we had a bit of a policy failure by both parties, actually, because we were still looking at a problem we had with heroin that hadn\u2019t been a problem for about 10 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EAnyway, by the time we did actually make this substance illegal and it was difficult to get from the pharmacies, it was actually too late. And, yeah, the Minister was actually right in that, actually, we do now have a situation where most of our product does emanate either in Europe or in Mexico or in Asia. However, if we now legalise this substance, make it available again, we have to be very careful\u2014we are playing with a very dangerous thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019m pleased to see it\u2019s going to go through select committee, I think most parties are agreeing with that, but I just hope there\u2019s some really informed debate there and we understand what we\u2019re playing with with this, because it is potentially very dangerous\u2014it is very dangerous. We could very well get back to the situation again where people who can\u2019t afford P\u2014and despite the fact we are awash with the stuff, it is actually relatively expensive still, and if it becomes a cheap option to go and get hold of your pseudoephedrine to make this product again locally, we will actually have the cycle starting again. So it\u2019s good that it\u2019s going to select committee, but be very, very wary of this product that we\u2019re dealing with. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef478a71aa3e4bcb8d14e09daba34271\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef478a71aa3e4bcb8d14e09daba34271\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s good to see that this is going through select committee. But, I guess, a point of interest from the Hon Ayesha Verrall is where she talked about how it would be good to see what pharmacists think. I had the opportunity to talk to a pharmacist just today, saying, \u201CPotentially, you\u2019re going to have the opportunity to sell more pseudoephedrine-based products next year.\u201D, and she said, \u201CFinally something that works.\u201D So that was an interesting point of phrase. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t know about you, Mr Speaker, but when I think about something that I want to decongest nasal congestion, I often think, \u201CGosh, I wish I had a non-prescription, pseudoephedrine-based vasoconstrictive bronchodilator.\u201D, and, potentially, with this good legislation, this will flow through, so I look forward to seeing that. Of course, this is about choice for New Zealanders. Some New Zealanders, when they\u2019re cold and stuffy, they want a greater option than just Tixylix. So I recommend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222e95498770934a4a8c18fb8338861ed7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Misuse of Drugs (Pseudoephedrine) Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 117\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 6\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000608\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022baaf804b6a6c43b5ac0672e21762160e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMisuse of Drugs (Pseudoephedrine) Amendment Bill be considered by the Health Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment in the name of the Hon Kieran McAnulty be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022346dec1a36a84c829cb0963bd558806f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022346dec1a36a84c829cb0963bd558806f\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Health Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f17388f3542b4eddaa5944599dc34c3c\u0022\u003EInstruction to Health Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022c35fb484dbe84daf943344cb68d3eade\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c35fb484dbe84daf943344cb68d3eade\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Associate Minister of Health (Pharmac)):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Misuse of Drugs (Pseudoephedrine) Amendment Bill be reported to the House by 14 March 2024 and that the committee have authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting (except during oral questions), during any evening on a day which on which there has been a sitting of the House, on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, and outside the Wellington area, despite Standing Orders 193, 195, and 196.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EI would like to briefly comment on the intended timing of this return period. I\u2019m aware, as I\u2019m sure you are, Mr Speaker, that the scope of such a debate is extremely limited. It cannot traverse the content of this bill nor any other possible policy initiatives. It is simply a debate about the reporting date from the select committee. In this particular instance, I\u2019m asking for the House to instruct the select committee to report back in four weeks\u2019 time. The reason for that is to balance two competing objectives. One is that we hope that if the Government can put in place its regulations, if Medsafe can process approvals or provisional approvals for particular products, then all that stands in the way of the pseudoephedrine-based medication being available this winter will be the Parliament passing this law. A six-month select committee period as is normal would, of course, mean that we missed the winter for the use of pseudoephedrine-based products, so that is the public interest in having a shortened select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EHowever, of course that also means that there will be less time for the public to submit and less time for the Health Committee to consider any submissions that they receive. Now, I\u2019m very grateful, in advance, for their work on this, but I think it\u2019s also important to be realistic. This piece of legislation is about two pages in its substance. It, basically, says that we are moving the word \u201Cpseudoephedrine\u201D from the section of class B drugs to the section of class C drugs. I mean, that\u2019s all we\u2019re doing, and I think some people might argue that a month to debate whether or not it\u2019s worthwhile to move a word from one page of a piece of law to another is perfectly adequate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EOn the other hand, I think it\u2019s important that people have the opportunity to come forward, because the purpose of a select committee hearing, in my humble opinion, is to inform the Parliament with information that parliamentarians might not have already had, despite the considerable consultation that\u2019s already been done by the Ministry of Health. I\u2019ve spoken to the Pharmacy Guild; a number of pharmaceutical companies; there\u2019s been consultation with the police\u2014there\u2019s been a considerable consultation over the past several months already, but you just don\u2019t know what might come to Parliament that didn\u2019t come through the process of a Minister like me making the policy and getting the legislation drafted. So we are striking a balance between the best of all worlds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a very simple bill. The implications of it are not particularly wide. I remind you that we\u2019ve had this law in the past; as recently as 2011, what we\u2019re proposing was the law. It is the law in the four other Five Eyes countries, and many others around the world. So the complexity is not great. I think a month is a good length of time to give people the opportunity to come along and say, \u201CHey, we haven\u2019t thought about this thing.\u201D It could be very valuable. On the other hand, the simplicity of the bill does not justify a longer period; or the complexity of the bill, such as it is, does not justify a longer period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EWe hope that if the pharmaceutical companies get their orders in and get their applications to Medsafe done in time, then New Zealanders may be able to enjoy the benefits of the legislation when they need it most this winter. There\u2019s a public benefit on the shortening and I think there\u2019s an adequate enough time for the consideration, and, on that basis, I ask that the House endorse a one-month report-back time for this piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u002290306694cce24fca85d37adee1790d20\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002290306694cce24fca85d37adee1790d20\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Minister for that contribution, and I hope it\u2019s clear to the Minister, through our earlier contributions on the bill, that the Labour Party respects the effort that is being made here to improve access to a health treatment and the initiatives that the Minister has taken. However, it is our view that only four weeks at select committee is too short. There have been very valid concerns raised about the impact of pseudoephedrine as a potential source of meth on the community by some of my colleagues here in the preceding debate, and also that was obviously a concern to some of the members of the Government in the past.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EThat does matter, and it is a matter such that we should approach that judiciously and deliberate on that properly. Four weeks only leaves people who are expert in this, who work in communities, who work in pharmacy\u2014it only leaves them a week or two to put in their submission, if that. I put it to you that that is too short.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EI think it is incorrect to say it is a matter of debating a couple of pages on a bill for one month\u2014that is not what the committee will be doing. The Health Committee is a very busy committee, with a big annual review of Te Whatu Ora kicking off tomorrow, but the issue is that the community will not have time to make the submissions they need to make.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EI noted the Minister\u2019s point about winter. That is a very valid concern, and, as it happens, my first contribution as a Minister in this House was the retrospective amendment to the Medicines Act required to approve the COVID vaccine, where we had to enable legislation to enable the COVID vaccine roll-out. We did that under urgency. I believe the justification for that was appropriate because we had an illness that would kill potentially thousands of people. We know the vaccination programme saved tens of thousands of lives. We had an imminent threat with COVID circulating all around the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EIn this situation, the measure that\u2019s being proposed is to prevent a sniffle. These are vastly different in terms of the justification for using expedited processes. You cannot compare the need for vaccine access passed under urgency to something which is a treatment for a mild symptom. We respect what is trying to be done here, but there are serious consequences from changing this law and we think the public deserve a right to have their say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u0022058075e654b049edacf406cee38fa379\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022058075e654b049edacf406cee38fa379\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Green\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E E te M\u0101ngai, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. Look, I hear the Minister\u2019s desire, being really, really keen to limit the application of logic and evidence and consistency when it comes to this bill or to the Misuse of Drugs Act or drug policy as a whole. But perhaps my proposal to the Minister would be that if his intention is to pass this through as quickly as possible, given that it\u2019s something that the ACT Party, for example, campaigned on, there is actually an opportunity to amend the Misuse of Drugs Act as a whole. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EAs I outlined intentionally in my first reading speech with regard to the mechanism that requires us to have an amendment bill here and not just an Order in Council, as is the case for an introduction of a new classification, there is the opportunity for the Minister to bring in a bill that, for example, amended that inconsistency, which would require that an Order in Council is all that would be required for that down-classification or that declassification. But, as the case stands, it is that we require an amendment bill in order to introduce a substance, or rather we require an amendment bill to down-classify or declassify a substance, whereas to increase penalties associated with any given substance, it simply requires the waving through of that Order in Council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo my proposal to the Minister would be that if his intention is just simply to wave this through and to shorten the public scrutiny on that, then there\u2019s an opportunity to amend the primary legislation such that we have that greater consistency between down-classification\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254c44b2ee8db41f58ba944295dd46cbc\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I\u2019m sorry, but the rules are so clear. Every Speaker has upheld them. Every member has followed them. It\u2019s not a question of what the content of the bill should be. It is simply a question of: is the reporting date appropriate for the bill that the House has just agreed to? Can you please uphold that Standing Order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022378ad66a8507436aa5b461b013d33a7f\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, Mr Speaker. My point is precisely about the reason that we are having this amendment bill, and the reason that we are having this truncated select committee process is because, ultimately, the point is that there are different processes that are afforded under the primary legislation, the Misuse of Drugs Act 1975, which says that in order to introduce a new classification and, therefore, penalties\u2014criminal penalties; serious criminal penalties\u2014we just need to wave an Order in Council through this House, whereas in order to down-classify or to declassify, we need an entire amendment bill. So, therefore, it is, in fact, entirely relevant. So if I may continue, Mr Speaker? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220166309906af4805a2f31680515f5e7e\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: You may continue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297e27d2ded824a7a802bd090ea997cb4\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK\u003C/span\u003E: The Greens oppose this referral motion because, as I have just alluded to, we have deep logical inconsistency here. In fact, what we\u2019d like to see, therefore, is far greater public scrutiny because there is a point about the need for logical and evidential consistency when it comes to the application of the Misuse of Drugs Act 1975. So, in summation, the Greens support the proposal from the Hon Dr Ayesha Verrall for an extended select committee process of two months, which would still enable this legislation to go through before we get to winter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022 data-id=\u002250d636feff8044f08a8884493971f628\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250d636feff8044f08a8884493971f628\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E \u0100, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. We\u2019d like to speak to the referral as well and support our esteemed colleagues and refer to the fact that a month is going to be way too short. We respect the view that there does need to be consideration to the weather, but what we are concerned about is the scale of the communities who are affected by meth, the ability to mobilise and be able\u2014and I am referring from stats, and if we look at it from the M\u0101ori community\u2019s perspective, they do need to be able to have a good ability to talk, to be able to come and submit and to be able to make sure that they take the most of this opportunity for the Minister and the Government to hear their concerns.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EAgain, I reiterate, I understand the concerns about keeping people well during the cold season, winter season, but there is no imminent solution to address the outstanding problem that we have in our communities with meth. We do require that there is a longer period of time for the select committee to receive this and ensure that the public, particularly M\u0101ori communities, get the valuable time that they need to be able to prepare the information and to prepare the stats\u2014also, the medical fraternity, those pharmacists who are concerned with this, as we\u2019ve seen and we\u2019ve all been lobbied for. So we don\u2019t support the Minister\u2019s referral to select committee. We would implore that there\u2019s a longer period of time for select committee. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd7ea20e31814ddcaa90101c29ad9138\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd7ea20e31814ddcaa90101c29ad9138\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I\u2019ve tabled an amendment to the motion, to delay the report back to the House by one month, to 14 April. The reason is that it is a proposal to the Government from the Opposition to meet us halfway here. Obviously, if there was an instruction to the committee to report back within a certain period of time, it\u2019s not a debatable motion, because it\u2019s broadly accepted in the Standing Orders that that is a reasonable amount of time at select committee. One month, as has been heard from the contributions from my colleagues, is considered, on this side of the House, to be too short. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EI will give the Minister credit: at least he is giving us the opportunity to have a debate at select committee; that is not what we have seen, often, from this Government so far. So credit where it\u2019s due. But one month is too short. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EWhen the House considers the reason why this was banned in the first place, there are genuine and reasonable concerns about what is being proposed. The Labour Party is willing to support the bill to select committee; we just want the select committee to be long enough to ensure that this House gets the opportunity to hear the views, pro and against, so that we can make an informed decision at the second reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ESurely, the Minister and the Government parties would want to take the opportunity to have as broad a consensus as possible across this House. We\u2019ve already had the vote at the first reading, and only one political party voted against it\u2014as is their right. That actually doesn\u2019t happen that often. So we have an opportunity to ensure that the best possible chance to have the broadest level of support for this bill\u2014and all we\u2019re proposing is we delay the referral date, as proposed by the Minister in his motion, by one month. It\u2019s still, roughly, four months shorter than what a normal select committee length of time would be anyway. So it\u2019s not like we\u2019re asking for much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EI get it\u2014I really do. This is the Minister\u2019s big thing at the moment and he wants it in place by winter. I get that. It\u2019s popular. He\u2019ll be the king of the chemist. Great. Good on him. But let\u2019s be realistic. He himself has conceded that the official advice says that it probably actually won\u2019t be in place till next year anyway. So what is the point in rushing too much? It\u2019s a month.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EOne month is what we\u2019re proposing formally on the Table\u2014that we amend the motion and that the House and our colleagues get the best possible opportunity to give everyone\u2014not just those who are experts in the field but everyone who has an interest in this debate\u2014the opportunity to be able to contribute at select committee. It might be that everyone\u2019s in favour of it. Great. But how will we know for sure if, really, in practice, there\u2019s probably only one or two weeks, as my colleague Dr Ayesha Verrall has mentioned, to get a submission in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ESo I would encourage the House to consider this amendment. It\u2019s put down in good faith. We want to do what we can to support the Minister\u2019s bill. It would be a shame, I think, if that opportunity was dismissed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f3b0c60913fc4a9385b4ea2552114f47\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Misuse of Drugs (Pseudoephedrine) Amendment Bill be reported to the House by 14 March 2024 and that the committee have authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting (except during oral questions), during any evening on a day which on which there has been a sitting of the House, on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, and outside the Wellington area, despite Standing Orders 193, 195, and 196.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f0cefd7617354d70b276f4f9822ac032\u0022\u003ELegal Services Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222548167d0147498d8ff5bcecb80e0319\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u002258c6858fa1bf465fb9bddde8e7c746fe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002258c6858fa1bf465fb9bddde8e7c746fe\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Legal Services Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208ab45ee6450483eb90720b23f4f7e0c\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d9fe19daa7e437998274b0b20ade291\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Legal Services Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe Government\u2019s priority for this term includes restoring law and order, enforcing real consequences for committing crime, and improving the quality of Government spending. Under the previous Government\u2019s approach, where the only clearly articulated target in the justice sector was a 30 percent reduction in the prison population\u2014irrespective of what is happening in our communities and on our streets\u2014we saw an alarming increase in violent crime. Offenders were often prioritised ahead of victims. Between 2018 and 2023, ram raids went up by 290 percent; robberies, 62 percent; victims of reported retail crime, 110 percent; family harm investigations, 34 percent; and acts intended to cause harm, 40 percent. Kiwis feel less safe than they did six years ago, and the message from the community has been clear: public safety needs to be at the heart of the criminal justice system. That means ensuring real consequences for crime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe incoming Government also has inherited budget deficits, a substantially higher debt burden, and a subsequent need to ensure our limited resources, including in the justice sector, are used well. In line with these priorities, we\u2019ve committed to defunding section 27 reports within our first 100 days of office. Section 27 of the Sentencing Act 2002 allows any offender to request that the court hear from someone chosen by the offender to speak about their background and related matters. The matters set out under section 27 include the offender\u2019s personal, family, wh\u0101nau, community, and cultural background, how support from the family final or community may help prevent further offending, and how the offender\u2019s background, family, wh\u0101nau, or community support may be relevant for possible sentences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EWhen this provision was introduced more than 20 years ago, it was intended that a person who knows the offender and their background would speak directly to the court. However, in recent years\u2014noticeably since 2018\u2014a cottage industry of section 27 report writers has evolved, funded by the legal aid scheme. Contrary to what was envisaged when 27 was introduced, these reports generally are prepared by a person not known to the offender or their background prior to the court proceedings. Some of these services are promoted with reference to the size of the sentencing discount that prospective clients can expect. The cost of all this to the taxpayer has grown from $40,000 in 2017 to approximately $7.5 million in the past financial year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EAt a time when victims of crime have grown increasingly disenchanted with the justice system and its ability to prioritise their needs, this ever-increasing expenditure cannot be justified. Legislative change is needed to deliver on our commitment, because decisions about legal aid funding for specialist reports are made by an independent Legal Services Commissioner. A proposed minor amendment to the Legal Services Act 2011 will exempt section 27 reports from the range of legal aid disbursements that can be made, without in any way limiting the independence of the commissioner with regard to the wider legal aid scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ELet me be clear: this bill does not prevent background information about an offender that is relevant to sentencing from being provided to the court. This information will continue to be available from a range of sources, such as the offender calling on a person to address the court orally on section 27 matters; the offender\u2019s lawyer\u2019s submissions; pre-sentence reports prepared by Corrections; letters of support from family and friends; persons supporting the offender through a mentoring, rehabilitation, or counselling programme; and other reports that may be appropriate, such as alcohol and drug assessments. Just as importantly, judges will still need to adhere to the purposes and principles of sentencing, which require them to take into account an offender\u2019s background in imposing a sentence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe proposed law change will commence two weeks after receiving Royal assent. This will allow a reasonable time frame for the legal profession to transition to the change. During this period, legal aid claims for section 27 reports will only be paid if the lawyer making the claim has already obtained the commissioner\u2019s approval to incur the cost.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EAs the bill makes discrete amendments to one Act and is relatively short in size, it will be progressed under urgency through the House to allow parliamentary time to be freed up for more complex legislation to come. The progression under urgency\u2014if the House agrees\u2014will allow savings within the legal aid funding to be realised sooner. The Government wants to see the savings made from ceasing legal aid funding for section 27 reports used to improve services for victims of crime over the next 12 months. The financial impacts of this law change will be closely monitored so that informed decisions can be made about how and when this will happen. Announcements will be made in due course.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe bill fulfils the Government\u2019s commitment to defund section 27 reports, and it is the first of many planned changes to sentencing policy with the ultimate goal of improving public confidence in the justice system. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022b30842028d234771b2a0d4ffcbc01de4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b30842028d234771b2a0d4ffcbc01de4\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u00228e84247ac79644adaf8965246b54a3a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e84247ac79644adaf8965246b54a3a3\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. Labour opposes this bill for three main reasons. The first reason is that it will increase reoffending. The second reason is more offending will create more victims of crime. And, third, it creates a two-tiered justice system. It is just another example of a Government that is hooked on slogans, not solutions, and they have no interest in fixing the challenges that New Zealand now confronts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ENumber one: increase offending. Section 27 reports look at reasons, not excuses. They look at what the offender\u2019s behaviour is. They consider how someone\u2019s background might have contributed to the offending; if any actions may have been taken to resolve the offending; and, most importantly, what support mechanisms might prevent further offending. The backgrounds of these offenders commonly include things like substance abuse, personality disorders, neurodivergence, learning difficulties, brain injuries, poverty, and trauma, including family violence\u2014extraordinary rates of historic family, sexual, and violent victimisations. These are the drivers of crime. ACT and National are not interested in understanding the drivers of crime. Having this information allows judges to more deeply consider why someone has come before the court and how to prevent them from coming back again and reoffending. These drivers of crime, if they go unaddressed, the likelihood of further reoffending is high. If a judge doesn\u2019t know what factors contributed to an offender\u2019s behaviour, they cannot address those factors at sentencing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EWe know through written parliamentary questions that the Minister of Justice has not asked for or received any analysis of the impact of section 27 reports on reoffending, and so he has no understanding of the impacts of taking these away on the victims of crime. So, for a Government that has set out to be intent on increasing victims\u2019 rights and improving New Zealand for victims, this legislation does exactly the opposite of what they\u2019ve set out to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThis bill, sadly, will mean there are more victims of crime, because the drivers of crime are not addressed and offenders reoffend. I suspect that the Ministry of Justice may well have done some analysis on this, and maybe that is the reason why we are not proceeding through to the committee stage tonight. I can\u2019t wait to take a good look at this regulatory impact statement and to understand exactly what\u2019s gone on behind the scenes, but instead of facts tonight, we\u2019ll be hearing the political reckons from those opposite. ACT claims that section 27 reports are being used to favour criminals and go soft on victims, and that scrapping them will make our country safer and ensure that sentencing is appropriate to the crime. These claims have no basis in evidence or reality; they just sound tough. The president of the New Zealand Bar Association has said, in relation to this bill, \u201CThere are significant risks that will make it harder for judges to impose appropriate sentences, [it will] undermine rehabilitation and adversely impact [the] reoffending [rate].\u201D That means more victims.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EFinally, what this bill does is create a two-tiered justice system, giving those people who can pay for a section 27 report an unfair advantage. Section 27 and its predecessor arose from a clear need, an urgent need, to address inequitable criminal justice outcomes for M\u0101ori, to recognise that prison sentences were failing to prevent recidivist offending, and also to prioritise options for rehabilitation and action on those fronts. With funding of written reports removed, section 27 provisions will only be available for those with private financial resources, wealthier groups that have a greater level of representation, and those in poverty go hard out. This will directly impact M\u0101ori and Pasifika communities in New Zealand. There are issues or problems with how these reports are doing, and let\u2019s look into that. Let\u2019s have a crack at fixing them. But this Government has no interest in solutions, only sound bites. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EFor a Government that funds tax cuts with more smoking and cutting benefits, there seems to be no limit on how low they will punch. This bill is just another ornament on the 100-day plan of nothing. If National and ACT genuinely cared about the victims of crime, they would turn around and stop this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe268c8d5541435397ae45c3ec1a753b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe268c8d5541435397ae45c3ec1a753b\u0022\u003EHon MARAMA DAVIDSON (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. There are so many avenues of\u2014well, no surprise that this is the approach that this Government is taking to some serious issues that need grown up, enduring solutions and responses, not the dog-whistling approach; the dog-whistling to ill-informed emotion. What needs to be understood here is that for so long now we have had the evidence\u2014we have had the evidence\u2014screeds and screeds of it, in fact, over decades. The Government also has at its fingertips, it\u2019s called Integrated Data Infrastructure, but what that actually means is the very data that we have been gathering around the background of people, including young people who offend\u2014the very diverse, complex, often generational, deeply challenging hardships and structural discrimination; many, if not most, offenders can find themselves on a path that is not healthy for them or the community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003ESo the Government seeks\u2014it\u2019s not even low-hanging fruit; it\u2019s actually dropped and rotting on the ground\u2014the solution that they are grabbing in wanting to remove the funding for the cultural reports, is what they are called; the reports that give judges far more information to be able to make good judgments in the court. I thought that\u2019s what this place could at least uphold: good information to inform decisions is what this Minister and this Government are choosing to remove\u2014do I only get five minutes on this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ed02d996a154723950ad4ffe6e23c7e\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220356c77af7104da39b50a95f450fbf6f\u0022\u003EHon MARAMA DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, OK\u2014what this Government is choosing to remove. Now, what that also creates is an inequity because those who\u2014and, as if our justice system didn\u2019t already have bias; now, that\u2019s not even up for debate. That has been well traversed by many reports and research. As if the justice system didn\u2019t already have that bias, this legislation actually still allows those with the means and the networks and the resources to still be able to pull on more information for judges in the courts, thereby entrenching already unjust inequities, that you can have a better chance at justice if you have got the means.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EThe particular sore point\u2014but, again, not surprising, for the Green Party to sharply oppose this legislation\u2014is the tangata whenua and Tiriti considerations. So noting again that there has already been clear evidence that the system discriminates. Who? I saw a lot of the National Party MPs at the Salvation Army breakfast last week, didn\u2019t we, Celia? We saw a lot of you there. We saw a lot of the National Party MPs there, supposedly listening. One of the key things that they said was \u201Ctough on crime\u201D. The system has already been tough on M\u0101ori\u2014far more tough on M\u0101ori than anyone else. That was what was spoken to at that breakfast last week. Were those members listening? Were they listening at all to that incredible research? That\u2019s just the latest in a long line of research that has said the very same thing. M\u0101ori are more likely to be apprehended, convicted, sentenced more harshly for doing the same thing\u2014the same thing. That is incomprehensible discrimination in our justice system, racism, and the removing of the funding for these cultural reports, which were one small but significant way of trying to mitigate the systemic bias that far too much of our research has already affirmed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EI am quite appalled\u2014quite appalled\u2014that this Government would just blatantly, basically, put up its hand and go, \u201CYep, we know there is already bias in the system. We\u2019re going to make it worse.\u201D Not surprised, but we will be exposing the hypocrisy of this Government at every opportunity. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022 data-id=\u0022666f040d9f424cdd887cf9e324965bbf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022666f040d9f424cdd887cf9e324965bbf\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise to speak in support of this bill, which, obviously, is amending the Legal Services Act. I\u2019m very proud to be a part of a Government, made up of National, ACT, and New Zealand First, that actually has a cohesive plan to tackle crime in our community. We heard time and time again during the campaign that Kiwis feel that crime has got out of control in our communities, and also that the system has become unbalanced\u2014where victims\u2019 rights are taking second seat to offenders\u2019 rights.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003ENow, we\u2019re not seeking to remove section 27 from the Act, and the Minister made that very clear. That option will still be available to all offenders, and they can call people to speak on their behalf in court and actually have personal testimonies of things that may affect their sentencing and actually explain, potentially, their offending. What we are stopping is the taxpayer funding an industry which has sprung up as an unintended consequence of paying for these reports by the taxpayer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003EAgain, as was outlined by the Minister, under the last Labour Government, $25 million has been spent on these reports. If you google search \u201Ccultural reports\u201D\u2014and these are actually section 27 reports; let\u2019s get the terminology right. But if you go and google cultural reports or section 27 reports, half a dozen websites will appear where you can just log on and ask for a report to be written. You don\u2019t have to have any attachment to the offender. You don\u2019t actually even need to know the person. You can just commission someone who has actually no connection to the offender or the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003ESo we are not removing section 27\u2014that will still be available to people\u2014but we are removing the taxpayer funding. It\u2019s just a small way of actually rebalancing our justice system. So I look forward to the continued debate, but ACT will be supporting this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6ddaaad05954759889aebaf06e5b1b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6ddaaad05954759889aebaf06e5b1b5\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Minister of Customs):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak in support of the Legal Services Amendment Bill, and I commend my colleague for his clarification that this is not a bill proposing to remove the section 27 reports.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EI rise somewhat astounded at the lack of faith in our judiciary and the way in which they have been discredited in their ability to understand the differential between an impassioned personal plea under a section 27 report from someone who actually has an association to the offender\u2014whether it is wh\u0101nau, iwi, hap\u016B, friend, employer\u2014and a pre-commissioned, rote report by someone who has absolutely no connection to the offender. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EI think I stand in support of the judiciary and their ability to differentiate what is a useful and valuable report. I also stand in support of the victims, who I\u2019m somewhat confused as to how they are adversely affected by this in a process that is part of the judiciary system\u2014it\u2019s part of the justice system. It will ensure that the offender has the opportunity to be heard and their circumstances voiced by someone who actually cares about them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EThe victims will be afforded the respect of not being funded out of their voice by a system that has become a commercial enterprise and very little about the rights of victims and improving the justice system. So, on that basis, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022 data-id=\u0022e9a6e5e837944160ae91efa02221c7d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e9a6e5e837944160ae91efa02221c7d0\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker, thank you. I rise to object to the bill, for these reasons. The bill amends the Legal Services Act to cut legal aid funding for section 27 reports. Funding matters. The previous speaker referred to taxpayers\u2019 money as if M\u0101ori aren\u2019t taxpayers. So I just wanted to note that and reject that idea. These reports provide sentencing judges with background information and insight into a person\u2019s background, into their wh\u0101nau, and into any historical trauma, and provide context to their lives that often can lead, when there\u2019s trauma, to offending. M\u0101ori are not born offenders; we\u2019re not born into it\u2014just to make that clear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EThese reports give judges a full picture of the person, and that statement cannot be made lightly. Why do I know that? It\u2019s because I was part of a team that used to put these together, and the usefulness that the judges found, and the purpose of them for wh\u0101nau\u2014that they provided not only a well-written narrative but the cultural context, though these section 27 reports are not just cultural reports. To that point, it\u2019s used as part of a narrative, unfortunately, again, as another exercise to make cultural/M\u0101ori wrong. That\u2019s what the narrative creates\u2014cultural puts \u201CHmm, those M\u0101ori are getting off lighter sentences.\u201D This is how it\u2019s discussed. How do I know? I used to work in that setting and these are the kinds of conversations that used to run regularly in court rooms, unfortunately. So those points I make in my speech tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003ECrime in Aotearoa is the result of poverty and disconnection from your community and whakapapa. Whakapapa is genealogy; it is who you come from and who you are. Let\u2019s say it\u2019s this word: deculturation. I\u2019m happy to discuss what that means with others if they don\u2019t know what that word means. It is the result of colonisation\u2014something that this Government seems to be good with, I think, given for M\u0101ori, on balance, I think that was one of the Minister\u2019s statements recently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EYou cannot call tough on crime when you are insistent on being soft to poverty and blind to poverty and ignorant on critical analysis\u2014critical cultural analysis\u2014and out of touch with reality and, worst of all, indifferent to M\u0101ori, indifferent to wh\u0101nau, indifferent to hap\u016B, indifferent to the reality. I know what wh\u0101nau have to deal with, with the barriers they have to contend with on a day-to-day basis of which very few will really know in reality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EAs part of their 100-day plan, this Government has pledged to end section 27 reports, which they\u2019ve dubbed \u201Ccultural reports\u201D\u2014and I made comments to that earlier\u2014but whatever language we\u2019re using, words matter. Words like \u201Ccultural\u201D often is slash for M\u0101ori, which is, I think I said before, made wrong. While these reports are available to people of all backgrounds, this Government\u2019s fixation on the word \u201Cculture\u201D has created a convenient narrative.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EWe know for a fact that when it comes to criminal justice systems, the case is that M\u0101ori are some of the worst over-incarcerated people on the planet. We are more likely to be pursued, arrested, and charged for crimes different to non-M\u0101ori. There\u2019s a new charge in town, it\u2019s called a DWB\u2014driving while brown. The only time M\u0101ori receive any special treatment in the justice system is when we\u2019re being profiled in stores, on the street, in car parks, in courts, and in corridors. W\u0101hine M\u0101ori make up 64 percent of the female prison population, and t\u0101ne make up 50 percent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EBy removing funding for section 27 reports, these statistics will only be worse. Unilaterally, removing funding means a greater risk of unfair and ineffective sentences, a higher rate of sentence appeals, and will create a situation where those who can afford to privately pay for these reports will be more advantaged\u2014and we M\u0101ori will be disadvantaged yet again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori are over-represented as both victims and criminals in the system. To ignore the systemic deprivation results in colonisation in the sentencing process is just another breach of article 1 and 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022 data-id=\u002250b4f59bd5a7466eb9e23a5b7cd904aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250b4f59bd5a7466eb9e23a5b7cd904aa\u0022\u003EJAMES MEAGER (National\u2014Rangitata):\u003C/span\u003E Can I apologise to the member for Te Tai Tokerau for inadvertently interrupting before. I didn\u2019t intend to do that; I just can\u2019t read clearly it seems tonight\u2014much like many of the members who also can\u2019t read the text of this bill, because it\u2019s quite clear what the bill does. It does not cancel section 27 reports; it removes the legal aid disbursement requirement. That\u2019s it. That\u2019s all it does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003EMembers also appear not to be able to read the bill correctly because nothing in the section 27 of the Sentencing Act actually requires paid reports. Now, we\u2019ve got this intense cottage industry filled up with consultants and people feathering their nests, when actually all the intention of this section was was to allow accused the opportunity to bring their family, their background, their community, their wh\u0101nau before the courts to give context and insight into their upbringing. I think that one thing members opposite should be most insulted about is that these are called cultural reports, and not for the reasons they say, but because it implies that an offenders offending is due to their culture, and that to me is one of the most insulting things that anyone in this House could ever imply. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003EJust one more thing on this. Members opposite speak a lot about Ma\u014Dri overrepresentation in incarceration rates; not a single one has talked about Ma\u014Dri overrepresentation as victims of crime. So let\u2019s think about that a bit more clearly, a bit more carefully when we move forward on this bill. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab88c51c37fd47fd8e953adf8612524d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab88c51c37fd47fd8e953adf8612524d\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Given that we\u2019ve only got five minutes for this first contribution, I want to start with the departmental disclosure statement, Part 3, \u201CTesting of the Legislative Content: Consistency with New Zealand\u2019s international obligations\u201D. What steps have been taken to determine whether the policy to be given effect by the bill is consistent with New Zealand\u2019s international obligations? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EThis says, from the Ministry of Justice, \u201Cit is unclear how the proposal fits with New Zealand\u2019s international commitments, such as the international convention on the elimination of all forms of racial discrimination. M\u0101ori are over-represented in the criminal justice system, and the funding change may exacerbate this disparity, as a high proportion of M\u0101ori and Pacific peoples offenders receive a legally-aided section 27 report, compared with New Zealand European and others. Due to the time constraints, though, no steps have been taken to conclusively determine the effect of this bill.\u201D Second: \u201CConsistency with the Government\u2019s Treaty of Waitangi obligations\u201D. The ministry consulted with another ministry\u2014Te Puni K\u014Dkiri\u2014and, it says, \u201Cwho did not support the policy. But, due to the time constraints under the 100-day plan, no other consultation with M\u0101ori has taken place\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ENow, today we have heard them saying that we are saying on this side that we are getting rid of section 27 reports. I\u2019ve listened to the debate. Not a single person said that. You\u2019re all saying that on the other side of the House, as if we\u2014no, the other side of the House, the Government is saying that the Opposition has been saying this. None of us have said that. We are very clear that your intentions through the amendment and in this section is to take the funding away. What is the effect of that? What are the implications of taking that away? It means that there is going to be access to justice issues. Now, Mr Meager, who is a lawyer\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297ccade617174345af95311ccfad45ac\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Was, was, was. He\u2019s gone up in the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239a348c6991648e6ae8ba473ed4d4932\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014should I tell you that the New Zealand Law Society says they oppose it. They oppose it, right? Oh well, they had a law degree, right? So you know this, the New Zealand Law Society, not just the Opposition, they oppose it, because it significantly limits access to justice. Then Te Hunga R\u014Dia M\u0101ori O Aotearoa also put out a press statement saying they \u201Cstrongly oppose the Government\u2019s plans to withdraw funding for section 27 reports\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EThen we\u2019ve got comments from the president of the New Zealand Bar Association. These people, who work in the sector, are saying that this strikes at the rights of all to equal access to justice\u2014that was the Law Society. Further, the Bar Association co-chair Rachael Reed says that the point of them is to consider the evidence about the impact of the reports since their use. This is what they are urging the Government to do. They are asking the Government, taihoa\u2014don\u2019t rush. You know, rush according to this, rush according to this; can\u2019t do all of the things that you would usually do when you\u2019re introducing new legislation in policy because rush, rush, rush. What they\u2019re asking for is that the Government consider the evidence about the impact of the reports since their use to determine whether the cost benefit justifies their continuation, and when assessed against reoffending rates and rehabilitation gains made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EBut, no. This Government doesn\u2019t want to take any advice on this. They don\u2019t want to do any analysis on this. They just want to punch down on those who use the section 27 reports. By dressing it up and saying, \u201CWe\u2019re not taking them away, but, effectively, we\u2019re removing the funding.\u201D, which means that those who need to access them\u2014who can get them? Those that can afford to. Who can\u2019t access them? Those that can\u2019t afford to. Who are those people disproportionately in the justice system? M\u0101ori. That\u2019s who it is, Mr Meager: M\u0101ori. And so, without doing any analysis, without doing any consultation with anybody who knows anything about this, this Government has just decided to introduce this bill tonight. Cost savings. What for? Tax cuts. Again, are we going to have people serving longer and unfair sentences in prison because they didn\u2019t have access to this, because they don\u2019t have the funding for it, right? For a tax cut. That\u2019s what you stand for. Kia ora. We do not support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022 data-id=\u0022e15220ca54d942289d36cf583be36d4e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e15220ca54d942289d36cf583be36d4e\u0022\u003ECAMERON BREWER (National\u2014Upper Harbour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise in support of the Legal Services Amendment Bill, first reading. We just heard from the previous speaker, the Hon Willow-Jean Prime, that this Government has just decided to introduce this bill tonight: \u201CThis Government has just decided to introduce this bill tonight\u201D was the direct quote, if my shorthand is right. Well, no, can I get on the record that this was something that was heavily consulted with and heavily debated during a long, long election campaign. Guess what! One and a half million New Zealanders said, \u201CGo to work on our law and order policies.\u201D As a result, we have 68 MPs on this side of the House, and they have 55. So this is not something that some are trying to give the TV audience that this was landed on the Order Paper tonight. This was well consulted on and well supported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003EJust as scrapping Labour\u2019s prison reduction policies\u2014that\u2019s also been ticked off, I think, in the 100-day plan. Is that gone? That\u2019s already been. Capping sentencing discounts to 40 percent\u2014I think that\u2019s coming as well. Getting tough on gangs\u2014that\u2019s also coming as part of this 100-day plan. This was a well-coordinated, well-campaigned on, well-signalled part of the law and order policies and part of our coalition agreement with the ACT Party. Again, as other members have said, we are not getting rid of section 27\u2014we\u2019re not, despite their repeated claims. All we are doing is defunding it. When that was mentioned and that was suggested in town halls up and down New Zealand\u2014small towns, big districts, big cities, wherever, all around New Zealand\u2014it was met with applause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003ESo this is something that despite what the previous member said that it\u2019s just landed here tonight, this has come as a suite of law and order policies. You\u2019ll see a lot more coming at you, the Opposition. So I commend this and I look forward to further debate as to what New Zealanders actually want, and that is that they want to see these cultural reports defunded by the taxpayer. As the Minister of Justice, the Hon Paul Goldsmith, has said, this is an industry that went in 2017\u2014that magical year; that was the last great year, wasn\u2019t it, 2017\u2014$40,000 spent. The previous Government then spent $25 million. So it\u2019s out of control. And the New Zealand public will be sending in the cards of gratitude as we speak. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022179063669b4c49dca4de232c270c0d9e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022179063669b4c49dca4de232c270c0d9e\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise, of course, in support of my colleagues on this side of the House, to not commend this particular bill to the House. I\u2019ve heard a number of catchcries or phrases from the other side of the House that they like to use when they\u2019re out on the street, like \u201Ccottage industries\u201D, making it sound like there was a rort being had. Well, let me remind that side of the House, when National were in power and they imposed meth testing on houses that set a standard that made sure that people had to test their houses for meth, it turned out to be bollocks\u2014turned out to be an absolute farce. What happened was a cottage industry was created, worth far more than this, that imposed these kinds of regulations on house owners, and those who were looking to rent or those who were renting, and were prejudiced through that particular process. If that side of the House wants to talk about cottage industries, they need only look in the mirror at what they\u2019ve done to support cottage industries around this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EMy colleagues on this side of the House have articulated our point really well on this particular bill. One point I want to raise to the House is, as I look through the regulatory impact statement (RIS), having been a Minister for six years, having seen my fair share of RIS papers delivered for bills, I find it quite interesting that there are redacted pieces in the RIS. That\u2019s, from my experience, not a common practice, not something that I\u2019ve ever seen in my decade in the House\u2014especially on the RIS, where the analysis is required in order to inform the House, inform the debate. So the question must be asked: what is that side of the House hiding? What is the Government hiding on such an important bill, to make sure that this side of the House, those who are opposing their actions here\u2014what are they hiding? That\u2019s the question that we will continue to prosecute as this bill continues further through the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe other point I want to raise is, as we look towards this bill\u2014and I\u2019ve already talked about the cottage industry claims from the other side\u2014that this sends a very clear intention. I\u2019ve seen a few of the members on the other side of the House go to Youth Court or Rangatahi Courts around the country\u2014a fantastic kaupapa, actually, that looks towards supporting our young people so that they don\u2019t end up in the justice system. This sends a signal that the support that those young people have from their wh\u0101nau, from their community, to make sure that the sentence they receive isn\u2019t something that\u2019ll continue to bind them into the justice and, indeed, into the corrections system\u2014this sends a signal to our wh\u0101nau who use the Rangatahi Court that this heavy-handed Government is there to create a further pipeline of our people. I say \u201Cour people\u201D broadly, but, of course, we\u2019ve already heard the statistics about M\u0101ori, about Pacific, and about low socio-economic communities creating a pipeline from the cradle to the prison system. That\u2019s what this does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe other side might say, \u201CWell, we\u2019re not taking away.\u201D Well, what they\u2019re doing is making it unattainable. It\u2019s nothing new from this Government, because they do it on so many other things\u2014they pull the ladder up when they\u2019ve climbed it. Once many of the Ministers have climbed up a ladder, then they look back at everyone else and pull the ladder up. They\u2019ve done it on benefits, they continue to do in the legal system, and they continue to do it in the justice system and in the corrections system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ETherefore, the Legal Services Amendment Bill that the Minister of Justice is pushing through will be heavily contested by this side of the House, and my colleagues, far more learned than me on these matters, will continue to prosecute our case to say that, actually, there was a better way to do this. If the Government was that well-intentioned with respect to this amendment bill, we could have sat down and worked with them, worked with the communities to say, \u201CActually, let\u2019s come up with a way that we can do this and do this collaboratively and do this in a way that won\u2019t create further harm in our communities.\u201D Sadly, they didn\u2019t take that opportunity. Sadly, they didn\u2019t take the opportunity to consult widely on such an important matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI\u2019m sure that as members of the House leave the Chamber and we go, and, every now and then, we fraternise and we talk and chat amongst ourselves\u2014each and every one of us will know a wh\u0101nau member who\u2019s had to go through the justice system, and we\u2019ve all got a case where we can say, \u201CGeez, if only they knew more about that person, more about that person\u2019s background.\u201D I guarantee that every member in the House has a wh\u0101nau member like that. That\u2019s why, on this side of the House, we are opposing the actions of this Government, and we will continue to oppose this as this bill proceeds through the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7f43caa90b84db1b2645eb20d631b73\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7f43caa90b84db1b2645eb20d631b73\u0022\u003ERIMA NAKHLE (National\u2014Takanini):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would like to issue an apology to all the victims of rape, an apology to all the victims of violence, an apology to all the victims of aggravated robbery, for the $7.7 million of taxpayers\u2019 money that was spent on those reports, trying to lessen the sentences of the perpetrators of those crimes against them. This is what we\u2019re forgetting: we\u2019re forgetting about the victims. What the other side doesn\u2019t understand is that the victims are actually very important and should be the most important in this discussion. I have no shame about standing up for the rights of victims, and I\u2019m sick and tired of people on the other side of the House making it out as if we don\u2019t care. No, we care enough to care about the victims of rape, the victims of aggravated robbery, the victims of crime. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022193c3de589d148c880c136485489535f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Legal Services Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000702\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022887524ee0b224b6fb601bb071a0c6634\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022887524ee0b224b6fb601bb071a0c6634\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, this bill is set down for second reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f2290e7c07c94654891633fd1d3d5a86\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u002232b86ea4b5c649c3ab732f9f9dab97a1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002232b86ea4b5c649c3ab732f9f9dab97a1\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Legal Services Amendment Bill be now read a second time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to thank members for their views on this bill in their first reading speeches. I accept that there may not be unanimous support for this bill, but the Government remains convinced that bringing an end to taxpayer funding of the cottage industry of section 27 report writers is necessary to rebuild confidence in the justice system and public spending. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EI\u2019m surprised at the change in the Labour Party. I remember the former Minister of Justice Kiri Allan conceding, when we pushed her on the increase from $40,000 a year to over $7 million a year for these reports, that \u201CMaybe this was something we need to look into in Government.\u201D So a year ago, those members were prepared to look into it, but now they\u2019re opposed to any changes, and, as the previous speaker said, this bill sends a signal. Well, it certainly does send a signal. It sends a signal that this Government is careful with its money; secondly, it is taxpayers\u2019 money that we\u2019re careful with; and, thirdly, we\u2019re going to instil real consequences for crime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EUp and down the country as we campaigned last year and continued to talk to the population, the number one issue was the cost of living, and number two was restoring law and order, and people want to see that. So the proposed minor amendment to the Legal Services Act exempts section 27 reports from the range of legal aid disbursements that can be approved, without limiting the independence of the Legal Services Commissioner. This bill doesn\u2019t change section 27 of the Sentencing Act in any way, nor does it place any limits on the background information that offenders can provide to the court. Offenders can continue to use section 27 to call anybody to speak on factors, either in court or in written form; the thing that is changed is the funding arrangements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EI think we\u2019ve seen as the debate has rolled how it\u2019s gone from $40,000 in 2017, to $7.5 million. I have no doubt that if the people on this side of the House weren\u2019t raising this issue through last year and the year before and pointing out the massive increase in spending, it would have continued on a trajectory towards $10 million and further, and that is money that could be spent, we think, more wisely in the legal aid system. Information on the offenders\u2019 background will continue to be presented to the court through other sources, such as their lawyer, the pre-sentence reports that the Department of Corrections prepares, or other reports that may be appropriate, such as alcohol and drug assessments or psychologists\u2019 reports, and through letters of support from family and friends and letters from rehabilitation programme providers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EProgressing this bill under urgency allows Parliament\u2019s time to be freed up for the more complex legislation to come in the justice sector. Of course, we\u2019ve outlined in our 100-day plan the need to give police more powers to deal with the gangs in our community, and moving further on to wider changes within the sentencing regime. So we\u2019ve got much to do in this Government. There\u2019s a lot of work to be done to restore law and order and to give people confidence that the Government is on the side\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cee1adb536f7435fbd3dac51909a7bd8\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Will it be scrutinised? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283c8b9ebfb9c47fc8d04521f1ec6ce8b\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014of ordinary citizens, law-abiding citizens, who want to feel safe in their communities, and our emphasis will be on the victims of crime\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c8b38ce15cf4fa5b8f54ad6c4a71b86\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Well, then a more appropriate sentence with a focus on rehabilitation would be a better thing for them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227340edff5c5a41e09cf07a68f3df5e28\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014rather than necessarily the needs of the perpetrators of crime. I\u2019m getting plenty of commentary from the other side, and I\u2019m sure members of the public will be able to assess that. We will look closely at the financial impacts of the rules change to ensure that Government spending is allocated effectively and that savings can be used to improve services to deal more effectively with violent crime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThis bill delivers on a Government commitment to defund these reports, and I\u2019d like to just remind people that what we\u2019re seeing at the moment is what some people might regard as slightly unusual. A series of parties campaigned during an election campaign for a change, they get elected, and then, when they\u2019re elected, they get into Government and do what they said they were going to do, and that\u2019s what we\u2019re doing on this side of the House. We said we were going to stop the funding for these cultural reports, we said we were going to end the cottage industry, and here we are, a couple of months after being in Government, and we\u2019re doing it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThat, I hope, will give New Zealanders and the people of this country confidence that this is a Government that will do what it says it\u2019s going to do, and one of the critical things that this Government is going to achieve for this country is we\u2019re going to restore law and order. This bill is one step in that direction, and I commend this bill to the House. Thank you, Madam Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022a740fbdb42bd4ab9934e23f2bbf4725f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a740fbdb42bd4ab9934e23f2bbf4725f\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022d5fcbb17c3f74ca0b4f3705cbb8ecb2f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d5fcbb17c3f74ca0b4f3705cbb8ecb2f\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Well, where do I begin? Where do I begin? So I think the first thing to clear up is that, for the record, at no point in time did any party on the Opposition benches at any stage ever say that this was going to be taken away. We\u2019ve always focused on the defunding. So if you want one of these reports professionally written and delivered in front of a judge, you have to pay for it. That absolutely rules out a large proportion of New Zealand society who cannot afford to pay. Once again, as with benefit cuts and as with increasing smoking, this is a Government that is focused on punching down, on finding those who are most vulnerable in our community and making sure that their lives are even worse than they are already. The sad part about that is the savings that are made for that punching down go in the pockets of those middle-income New Zealanders who are going to receive a tax cut at the Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ENow that we\u2019ve cleared up that bit, the next bit I think I\u2019d like to point out is in the regulatory impact statement. What\u2019s really interesting in this regulatory impact statement is it says: \u201CWhat is the problem?\u201D I love it when they ask this. Officials are so honest; they just say, \u201CWhat\u2019s the problem we\u2019re trying to solve here?\u201D And the problem, it says, is \u201Cthe Government\u2019s 100-day commitment plan\u201D. That\u2019s the problem that we\u2019re trying to solve. So, basically, these guys have promised them stuff, and we\u2019ve got to go do it. So that\u2019s the problem we\u2019re trying to solve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThen they go on to talking about \u201CWho are the stakeholders in this issue, what is the nature of their interest, and how are they [going to be] affected?\u201D They list out who the stakeholders are. So \u201Cthe court\u201D\u2014that\u2019s listed\u2014is the first one. \u201CThe offender\u201D, that\u2019s the second one. The next one is \u201Cthe legal aid provider\u201D. The next one is the \u201Csection 27 report provider\u201D. We haven\u2019t seen any M\u0101ori so far, and we don\u2019t ever. And last on the list are \u201Cvictims\u201D\u2014last on the list. They get four lines\u2014actually three and a half lines. In the entire regulatory impact statement, we get three and a half lines about the impact on victims. And let me read it: \u201CThe victims of crime have an interest in this issue,\u201D\u2014Wow, that\u2019s good!\u2014\u201Dincluding the impact of section 27 reports on sentencing. Victims will continue to have the ability to have their views heard by the court through victim impact statements.\u201D\u2014so, basically, victims lose their voice through section 27 reports; and the final sentence\u2014\u201CWe do not have any information on the views of victims.\u201D So don\u2019t you lecture us on what we\u2019re doing for victims, when your own regulatory impact statement\u2014your own regulatory impact statement\u2014states, \u201CWe do not have any information on the views of victims.\u201D None. Not one consultation. So if, in this House, a member is going to stand and lecture on what\u2019s right for victims, you might want to read your own regulatory impact statement, which clearly states that not one single victim has been involved or consulted on the impact of taking away legal funding for section 27 reports.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EBut it gets better\u2014it gets better. It gets better because they put up some other options. And do you know what? I really like the other options. So option one: status quo. Option two is to remove the taxpayer funding for section 27 reports, which is clearly what\u2019s going to be the outcome, because they\u2019ve promised it in the 100-day plan. But the next one\u2019s better. I like \u201Cimpose a cap on the reports writers\u2019 fees\u201D. What about that one? Let\u2019s talk about that one. What about option four? That\u2019s quite good too\u2014\u201DIntroduce an accreditation system for section 27 report writers.\u201D That\u2019s a good one. I wish I had thought of that. \u201CThe legal aid funding for section 27 report writers would continue, but changes could be [made or] introduced to restrict [the] funding to report writers who had been accepted under an accreditation scheme.\u201D\u2014that\u2019s a great idea\u2014\u201DThe scheme would ensure [that] writers met [an] agreed criteria, including qualities such as relevant experience and knowledge of the personal, family, wh\u0101nau, community, and cultural background of the offender.\u201D Why aren\u2019t we doing that one? Because that would be better, and that wouldn\u2019t have the impact of increasing reoffending, increasing the number of victims, and creating a two-tier justice system. So I like that one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ETo wind up, I\u2019d just like to point out the fact that if you\u2019re going to have a 100-day plan, it would be great if there was some substance in it, but all of these things are simply window dressing. They look good. They\u2019re a sound bite. They\u2019re an ornament. They tick your box. You\u2019re able to say, \u201CWe campaigned on this, and we did it.\u201D, but if you can stand up, hand on heart\u2014hand on heart\u2014and actually say, \u201CWhat is the solution? What is the solution to the problem we\u2019ve identified?\u201D No solutions are coming from those members opposite\u2014not one single solution\u2014because what this bill does is it actually makes the problem you\u2019re trying to fix worse. It makes it worse, and all those who have commented publicly\u2014whether it be the Chief Justice, or whether it\u2019s the Bar Association or it\u2019s the Law Society, the legal fraternity have come out and stated, \u201CWhat this does is increase reoffending.\u201D And when you increase reoffending, you increase victimisation, and what that does is make New Zealand society more fragmented, it increases crime, and it makes things worse. So, for all the tough talk we hear, there are no solutions for the problem that\u2019s been identified, and the only problem that this bill fixes is addressing something in the 100-day plan, and that\u2019s sad.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022 data-id=\u0022c868687c46e743008b00500655efe4a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c868687c46e743008b00500655efe4a3\u0022\u003EHon MARAMA DAVIDSON (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I get 10 minutes this time? OK, I\u2019ll just stretch a little bit. So the opposite members of the bench proclaim to be voicing concerns for victims. Well, we will hold them to that. I urge those members to go immediately and read the reports of the Chief Victims Adviser. I urge those members immediately to go and read Te Aorerekura, the violence prevention strategy. I urge those members to go and read the Human Rights Commission report on the discrimination in the justice system against M\u0101ori, Pasifika, young people, and brown people. I urge those members to highlight the evidence, very clearly, that will show that removing the funding\u2014so here\u2019s the thing. Here\u2019s the thing. On the one hand, the Government members are trying to say, \u201CWe\u2019re tough on crime. We\u2019re about the victims.\u201D, but, actually, the ability to maintain section 27 reports is still there. It\u2019s still there. So they\u2019re not concerned about \u201Ctough on crime\u201D. They\u2019re concerned about removing the ability to access what only the rich are left to be able to access. So how is that for some hypocritical action? It\u2019s still there. It\u2019s still there, but they\u2019re removing the access for people who cannot afford it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003ENow, I spent the last three years as a violence prevention Minister focused, finally, on the system centring victims\u2014on the system centring victims. I also was the chief panellist on the Owen Glenn inquiry into domestic violence and child abuse. Does that Government want to know what is really in the way of victims receiving justice? Well, here is just a snippet. If those members really care about victims of sexual violence and abuse, here is what I have heard directly from members and advocates who have been working on victims\u2019 access to justice for decades. Get ready for this. How about this: people who have been sexually offended and abused by people who already have standing in the community and have access to powerful lawyers and networks across the system. How about that? How about they stand up to be a voice against the powerful access to justice that women who might have been in a relationship with a school principal or a lawyer or a police officer or a businessman or people who are already leaders in the so-called justice system, and, therefore, have been gaslit because of the influence that their perpetrators and offenders hold and therefore get away with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003EIf this Government actually cared about justice for victims, it would sit down with victims and survivors of rape, with victims and survivors of sexual offending\u2014with, how about this, the many victims that the State institutions have ruined for generations with the violence that they have suffered, that they have had to confront. Many of those victims have also, unfortunately, yes, at times, ended up in the docks as offenders. Do we not think it is important to take into account the incredible harm, injury, and injustice that those offenders were subject to and did not receive justice for? Where were those voices then for the victims? If this Government is truly concerned with reducing crime and reoffending, removing the funding is actually the opposite.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003ENow, second reading is normally where we might ordinarily hear from the actual experts in the community who have been working at the front line of trying to reduce offending. Reducing offending on the front lines: social workers, youth workers, marae workers, many who have the expertise and lived experience. We would hear from them, their voices. They have written across social media and across media, and they have been very clear: all that removing the funding for cultural reports will do is entrench further discrimination in a justice system that already is trying to resolve its own discrimination. It already admits that the justice system has been tougher on M\u0101ori than it has been on, say, the non-M\u0101ori, very well-resourced businessman who has been causing pain and sexual abuse and violence to his partner but, because of the hook-ups, has got away with it. So do not sit in this House and yell at us about who cares for victims, because removing the funding for these reports is not caring about victims.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003ENow, there are solutions, and victims have been very clear about what is needed to overhaul to a system that actually does centre victims. Victims have been very clear. One of the things\u2014again, the members can go and read in Chief Victims Adviser reports that this current adversarial justice approach actually ends up harming victims more, because, by its nature, it requires a winner and a loser. And guess who has been losing! Victims. And it has not been because of cultural reports\u2014it has not been because of cultural reports. It has been because of wealth and privilege, privilege and wealth, and because of a system not understanding the dynamics of violence\u2014because of a system not having the collective expertise of the dynamics of violence, and because of the inbuilt patriarchy that goes against women.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ef83e1653774c13b4afe60bd23deb75\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207659988e5b747fab0622ac77eca75f2\u0022\u003EHon MARAMA DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, OK. \u201COh!\u201D, you say. I wish those members would roll their eyes in front of victims. I wish they had victims in front of them, to roll their eyes at any mention of this system being patriarchal and that that is what has offended victims and blocked them from justice. I can\u2019t wait to take those offensive responses of those members back to the many stakeholder victims groups that I am closely working with and will stay connected to. I cannot wait. I cannot wait for them to expose themselves for outright denying the evidence and the voices of victims\u2014their voices, their lived experiences, their solutions. Not once, in three years of sitting with victims, as a Minister, have I heard them ask to remove these cultural reports. Not once.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003ESo shame on this Government. Shame on them for trying to exploit rape\u2014because using this racist legislation is trying to exploit rape and sexual violence. Do not yell at us who have been working deeply with victims on improving a system that actually delivers justice for victims. Their voice isn\u2019t in this. It never has been in this legislation, and I will maintain my anger and my connection with them. I will not drop their voice from these arguments. How dare this Government try and exploit victims in favour of some legislation that is just going to keep those privileged with the resources to be privileged. Shame on them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022 data-id=\u002282c49fcb4dcf4498bdfd0ff2d76f42f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002282c49fcb4dcf4498bdfd0ff2d76f42f0\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I rise once again to speak in favour of this bill. I want to acknowledge the passion from other members of the House, but we do have a different response to how we want to deal with criminal justice in New Zealand, and we see this as a part of an overall plan that our parties have put together to deal with it. I\u2019m sorry that the Hon Ginny Andersen isn\u2019t still in the House, because I was able to point out what the problem is as we see it\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022568bd63da7264610bcfb09f3d7be5bd1\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just interrupt the member and remind him not to mention the absence of members in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f7c749e988442ac949a9fcc24188149\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yep, sorry\u2014I hope to be able to address some of the points she had raised. The problem as we see it is quite clear: in 2017, section 27 reports were costing $40,000; last financial year, $7.7 million. This has gone unchecked and it\u2019s time to rein it in, and that is what we are doing. The ability to put information before the court, as has been well discussed tonight, will still be available. Offenders can have people come and speak to them. I know the power, in my very short time at the criminal bar, of actually having an employer turn up and speak on behalf of an offender and actually talk about how they can help that person actually stop their reoffending. That\u2019s what was envisaged by section 27, actually having people with a personal connection, whether it\u2019s wh\u0101nau, an employer, other people in the community actually coming along, speaking on that person\u2019s behalf at no cost and actually demonstrating to the court how they could help that offender. This is a sensible change to stop this taxpayer funding, and we commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u0022aa5de10bc951409f9532c5846e213327\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aa5de10bc951409f9532c5846e213327\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Minister of Customs):\u003C/span\u003E I also rise again to speak in support of the Legal Services Amendment Bill. I acknowledge the passion and concern that was expressed with regard to victims. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EI can assure the House that I have held the victims after being raped, I have nursed the children who have been beaten, I have looked into the victim\u2019s eyes, and I have retained a faith in the judiciary and the justice system to act appropriately. As was raised across the House, we have all been involved in those circumstances where we have had to advocate for people we know, for wh\u0101nau, for those we are connected with, and for those who we don\u2019t know but feel a compassion to represent. That is still available and will continue to be available. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EI have enormous faith in iwi and hap\u016B for being able to stand up for even those who they have no direct connection to, without cost, to advocate for those who are vulnerable, those who need intervention, and that will also continue to exist under this legislation amendment. It is the judiciary who will weigh up the value of the information presented to them and they will know the difference between a well-coiled-up report written by professionals using special-speak and those impassioned pleas that are given by those who have genuine concern and connection to the offenders and want to see the very best outcomes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EIt is for that reason that we do not need taxpayer funding to milk the system, as has been occurring, but we do need the recognition of true, concerned community members to advocate for those who need it at the time of sentencing to represent their concerns. For that reason, I fully support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022 data-id=\u0022d56dd9d6b2b44868a9573464639df175\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d56dd9d6b2b44868a9573464639df175\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. I stand to tautoko my sister here, partly, to\u2014oh, not partly that I support her, but partly to discuss this in this way. What you just witnessed, it\u2019s not passion, so don\u2019t dismiss it as such. It is not passion; it is experience, it is knowledge, and without it, we\u2019re not as well off as we could be. To dismiss it in such a way, particularly by some of the expressions I saw on the faces of members across the House, I don\u2019t quite understand that\u2014it\u2019s offensive and probably needs some work, I would suggest. To suggest that this side of House\u2014and the M\u0101ori Party, for instance\u2014ignore pain of victims is also false and mischievous. To suggest that we take a line on this bill as if we don\u2019t understand what the pain is for victims is false and you need to rethink that\u2014sorry, that side of the House needs to rethink that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EAt T\u016Brangawaewae, at least 20,000 people turned up to say what the Government was doing was just out the gate and needs some attention. Sixty thousand turned up at Waitangi and addressed Government across the paepae and said very clearly, in seven different ways\u2014but in the language that only the Government can understand, which is the monolingual thing, English\u2014so they could understand that they are letting wh\u0101nau down. So when one of the previous speakers suggested that \u201CWe went to lots of community halls.\u201D, it has to be a joke, really, because I didn\u2019t hear him say \u201Cmarae\u201D; I didn\u2019t hear him say \u201Cr\u016Bnanga\u201D; I didn\u2019t hear him say \u201Cwh\u0101nau settings\u201D. I heard him say \u201Ccommunity halls\u201D, which is, probably, essentially, P\u0101keh\u0101 settings, just saying. This concerns me as well, given that the Minister on record has said, \u201COn balance, colonisation is good for M\u0101ori.\u201D\u2014and he said it, so I\u2019m not making that up. But the point I\u2019m making is it is embedded in the discussion, and therefore is embedded in his thinking, which is a huge concern. When any Minister says, \u201CColonisation was good for M\u0101ori, on balance.\u201D, that is atrocious, disgusting, and needs to be challenged in every single way, and 60,000 people did\u201460,000 people did in Waitangi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003ETo take funding away\u2014that\u2019s the point. To suggest that taking funding away, but, you know, \u201CYou can still have friendly M\u0101ori people and wh\u0101nau come along and stand up.\u201D, that\u2019s just ridiculous. It\u2019s ridiculous\u2014I know, because I used to do this work for many years in the Ng\u0101ti Hine Health Trust. I used to run programmes in prisons, for goodness\u2019 sake, in Rangip\u014D, so I know\u2014I know\u2014what this takes, Minister, despite what\u2019s less known across the House. I can tell you this with assurance: taking funding away\u2014taking funding away\u2014lessens opportunity; it lessens the access to fair and just decisions. This is what I would call robbing Pita\u2014robbing Pita\u2014to pay Paul or Paula. That\u2019s what this is\u2014this is robbing Pita to pay Paul or Paula. This is a poor way of showing any real, genuine interest. Again, I said it earlier: it\u2019s indifferent to M\u0101ori, and I\u2019m saying that and I expect that it\u2019s understood across the House. Trust me when I say this: I know this work\u2014I know this\u2014I know what it takes, and this piece of legislation, it undoes it all. So if 60,000 people can show up in Waitangi, they\u2019ll continue to show up, and that\u2019s why this absolutely needs to be rejected by this party. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022766873ecaf3b4f019806c9847ac28f49\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022766873ecaf3b4f019806c9847ac28f49\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I stand with you today to recognise that the Government is continuing to push forward the agenda of mass incarceration, a colonial agenda that has just resulted in more violence, more indigenous people being incarcerated, and one that is, unfortunately, a global colonial product. What this bill aims to do, in terms of removing legal aid for the creation of cultural reports\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cb73019ddd848cd97e925442b53fdab\u0022\u003ETodd Stephenson\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re not cultural reports; they\u2019re section 27 reports.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233bb1a75baa740dc9395e9337af7be8f\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014will cause\u2014section 27 reports\u2014harm to communities who have been failed by successive Governments in a broken justice system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9845ab96b3944dcb6e83de10be6bfbc\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: You were in the last Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3e9cc282f2b4c67a580ec02291483f7\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: Indeed, and we were very critical in the last Government around the failure to address issues around mass incarceration. It\u2019s interesting that the member opposite to me, jeering about the past Government, fails to recognise their own complicity, while in Opposition, in actually just calling for more harm for the communities that actually are served by these reports.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s really important that we contextualise, actually, what these reports were for. I\u2019d like to quote Dean of Law at Auckland University of Technology Professor Khylee Quince, who talked about how cultural reports are not just about reducing sentences but also about providing relevant contextual information about offenders, including how they came to be the person before the decision maker, what they\u2019ve done to address the harm, and this report that they have available to them that may provide the basis of the disposition. That process is part of the standard practice of sentencing that has largely left out M\u0101ori before the courts for many reasons. Most importantly, she talks about rather than providing an opportunity for a lesser sentence, as commonly touted in the media by people opposite to me, it gives space for M\u0101ori wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, and iwi, and hapori solutions to be part of the way forward. This is such an important context, because this is about building a justice system that isn\u2019t just about locking people up and throwing out the key and assuming that the problem will go away but actually being able to provide a much greater contextual basis for the justice system to operate. She also recognised that the benefits of these reports extend beyond benefiting M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EIn fact, for migrant and former refugee communities, these reports are critical\u2014and were critical, actually\u2014in being able to provide that broader context in terms of migrants\u2019 and former refugees\u2019 experiences with the justice system to understand that certain behaviours are caused by the trauma that people may be experiencing from fleeing war and persecution, and that is really important context that needs to be provided.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThe people who produce these reports are a lifeline into those people being able to be understood by the justice system and for the involvement of the broader community. We cannot underestimate the ability for these reports to bring about and shed light to context that would enable healing and restoration for M\u0101ori, for migrants, and for former refugees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EBy recognising that what this Government aims to do is increase sentencing times and, effectively, put more people into prison, what they are doing is creating a life of hardship and inequality for those same people. As somebody who had the pleasure to work with formerly incarcerated people, it was really clear that, actually, our prison system does more harm than good as it is and that we don\u2019t even provide adequate support for people who leave prisons to then reintegrate into our communities. If anything, we have an outdated income support system, and the bill that the ACT Party member talks about will actually only make things worse, and forcing people, as the ACT Party member wants to do, to complete their rehabilitation processes before being able to properly reintegrate actually is not the way forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EBut going back to the bill. This bill will only increase incarceration rates and will increase poverty and will increase violence by not being able to have in place systems that allow for healing and the involvement of the broader community within the operations of our justice system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022 data-id=\u0022e6a4a61df6b64ced851f5272ec7ebcd1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e6a4a61df6b64ced851f5272ec7ebcd1\u0022\u003EJAMES MEAGER (National\u2014Rangitata):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m glad that members opposite have finally woken up to the idea of the fact that things cost. They talk about cost, and they\u2019ve finally woken up to the impact of costs on our most vulnerable. If they were really, really concerned about the costs of these reports, why haven\u2019t they gone out and asked Harry Tam for his template and offered to do it for free? Because that\u2019s what they\u2019re actually saying here. They\u2019re saying that when you remove legal aid funding that no one will be able to access this unless they are super-rich and super-powerful. Well, where is the members opposite\u2019s compassion and advocacy for those vulnerable if they\u2019re requiring them to pay for the reports and they have no system at all to pay for it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003ENow, I noted with interest that, in the previous contributions, the former Minister Peeni Henare lifted up the regulatory impact statement (RIS). And I\u2019m not sure whether he said it was unprecedented or whether it was unusual, but he said that RISs don\u2019t come redacted and it\u2019s very, very unusual to see those come to the House redacted. So I got on the Google machine and I took some advice from young Tom Rutherford and I did some googling. And the very first thing that came up was a document called interim regulatory impact statement establishing the Inspector-General of Defence. And towards the end of the page\u2014I just want to hold up this sheet for everyone\u2014was quite a large, redacted document. The document is dated 2021 and, of course, the Minister of Defence at the time was the Hon Peeni Henare.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003ESo this is a good bill by a good Minister\u2014I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u00228d504863609644f0a6be43caabb1bdd9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d504863609644f0a6be43caabb1bdd9\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Oh, Mr Meager\u2014you\u2019ve got the future of M\u0101ori in your hands.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EMadam Speaker, tuatahi e mihi ana ki a koe, e te whanaunga, Marama, m\u014D t\u014D kaha ki te k\u014Dkiri i t\u0113nei kaupapa. E kore m\u0101tou e wareware t\u014D kaha ki te whawhai m\u014D t\u0101tou, te iwi M\u0101ori. E kore m\u0101tou e wareware. T\u0113nei te mihi ki a koe e te whanaunga, e te tuahine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E[Madam Speaker, firstly I would like to acknowledge you, my relative, Marama, for your strength in progressing this initiative. We will not forget your strength to fight for us, the M\u0101ori people. We will not forget. I acknowledge you; my relative, my sister.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EI had the privilege of working with Minister Marama Davidson last year when she was in this area. It was a privilege to work with her in this area, because her and I come from\u2014we live in the South Auckland area. We launched her kaupapa at my marae, at Ng\u0101 Whare Waatea Marae. I mihi to you, whanaunga, for your passion in terms of this is a thankless, thankless job. I just say to that previous speaker, James Meager, who seemed very casual about this\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f37aba7fb47846198ca6b067858c0174\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Condescending.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df92e9905cf64ff69543724259b34684\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Condescending\u2014yes, condescending. I know there\u2019s great hopes for him in terms of te ao M\u0101ori. This is one of the most taumaha\u2014heavy\u2014kaupapa that we as a people have engaged in in our lives. It\u2019s been part of my life, too, as a former chief executive for the Manukau Urban M\u0101ori Authority, former national chairman of all our urban M\u0101ori authorities. This has been one of the issues that we have traversed. Rather than insult the Opposition, as I normally do, I\u2019ll give that a rest\u2014as tempting as it is to insult some of them, and particularly with some of their nonsensical contributions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EMy mother, as Marama knows, was the longest-serving Parole Board member in this country\u201420 years, national Parole Board member. My mother, who was appointed by the National Government and given a damehood by the National Government, Jim Bolger, did all this type of mahi. My mother was as tough as they come. She was furious with some of the offenders who used to come through. There\u2019s no light touches with my mother\u2014no light touches\u2014and she would say, Madam Speaker, and to the House, \u201CI\u2019m embarrassed by what you have done and how you have offended\u2014I\u2019m embarrassed by it.\u201D, and the judges could not hold her back. She was very clear\u2014I just want to be serious here for a while, because I think this concerns all of us. She used to say to me 98 percent of people can be redeemed and only 1 or 2 percent are evil\u2014only 1 or 2 percent are evil. So we followed her, she used to bring the\u2014I have seen the worst of the worst of the worst come to our marae: murderers, paedophiles, rapists. We used to be in shock, and Mum always used to say, \u201CIf we don\u2019t deal with them, who deals with them? They have shamed us, they have embarrassed us, but we still have to work with our people.\u201D So we learnt so much from my mum.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EThese reports that you\u2019re talking about, where Mum touched us\u2014and I think the other side will be interested\u2014is while we would be appalled at the behaviour, disgusted with the behaviour of some of these offenders, she would say, \u201CYou know how that murderer was brought up? Under a house, for 10 to 15 years.\u201D She used to say, \u201CWhat sort of person would that person be after being brought up and tortured under a house for 10 or 15 years?\u201D That\u2019s what Mum used to say. So, you know, there are these types of k\u014Drero that happen in these cultural reports that are so important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EI was listening to Minister Costello over there. When we set up the marae justice courts, Minister Costello, we used to have all our kaum\u0101tua come\u2014and I appreciate your k\u014Drero too. We used to have our kaum\u0101tua who for years used to do this type of mahi for nothing\u2014for nothing. They did, because our people just\u2014you know this\u2014come to the marae and they do this sort of work for nothing, and when we set up the marae justice courts, we demanded that the taxpayer should pay something for our kaum\u0101tua. We demanded that. Why shouldn\u2019t kaum\u0101tua be paid in terms of giving all their time and their energy? Why should they have to do all of this and everybody else gets paid except for them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003ESo what I\u2019m saying to the House tonight is there\u2019s two sides to this\u2014there\u2019s two sides to this. Of course I\u2019m appalled by what happens to victims. I have dealt with the victims, and we have brought these victims in with us, as we\u2019ve proceeded with our restorative justice programmes. We have told our people how they have abused and violated these people\u2019s lives\u2014our aroha is with them, absolutely\u2014but we don\u2019t give up on our people who have inflicted the damage. It goes both ways. National, whether the other side like it or not, have played a major part in that too, and have been part of the strategies in terms of trying to redeem people. Bill English and others have played a part in terms of seeing both sides. It cannot just be a \u201Cput them in jail and throw the key away\u201D strategy. It cannot be. It has to work on both sides\u2014it has to be work on both sides. And you cannot, I\u2019ll say tonight, you cannot keep ignoring\u2014why are we ignoring people like Justice Joe Williams? I asked Tama Potaka that. We\u2019re talking about some of the best legal people in the business. Justice Joe Williams is the pride of te ao M\u0101ori. He\u2019s saying this type of strategy should not be put in place because, in the end, M\u0101ori will be affected hugely by this type of strategy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EWillow-Jean Prime talked about the New Zealand Law Society, M\u0101ori Law Society, New Zealand Bar Association\u2014all of them are saying that we need to tread carefully here. I ask the Opposition to consider this, because, rather than us getting into this level of insults\u2014which we\u2019ll probably get into anyway, eventually, we\u2019ll probably get into\u2014let\u2019s try and look at this seriously and maturely. We\u2019ve got communities who are suffering. We\u2019ve got our experts\u2014like Joe Williams, like Kim Workman, like my mother, who was honoured by the National Government\u2014who have said this is not just about our people, people who have been the victims, the victims are on both sides. The victims are on both sides. And the easy way out\u2014the easy way out\u2014is just to go, \u201CWe\u2019ll have a hard and fast ACT-type policy.\u201D That hard and fast ACT-type policy was never the National Party policy, but it has become now. It was not\u2014never. You can look back on your own books. Simon Power was holding gang conferences here, for goodness sake. I attended gang conferences here, run by the former justice Minister\u2014they weren\u2019t called gang conferences, I\u2019m going overboard a bit there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ec046cbb2424fdb8dfc072a14620a99\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not like you!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f1db170174643f988cff2dfc6a0fc07\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: That doesn\u2019t sound like me! You had people like Simon Power, you had people like Bill English, who was our man from Whanganui?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022925266c66179467c8f25d699ee2ef7ab\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Chester.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b52a14ceca244104b96853178c1a756d\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Chester Burrows. These are good people. You know, you lot are a disgrace to their name\u2014I knew I\u2019d get to that. I mean, they would hang their heads in shame, looking at you lot over there. These are good National people who believe in a strategy, and you lot have been duped by this useless right-wing fascist group over here: the ACT Party. You lot have been duped by them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EI say tonight, Mr Meager, you showed so much promise in that maiden speech, but you\u2019re going to the pack every other time you stand up. You\u2019re disappointing us. The journalists might have to have a rethink in terms of your future because, clearly, you\u2019re on the wrong track. So I say tonight\u2014I say tonight\u2014wake up. Wake up. There are two sides to this, and it\u2019s not about just locking people up and throwing the key away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b918ab2812514e4e9d86a16c424f7b58\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re not talking about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c311d1cc21a24f4d86214301ec20d745\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: What are you talking about, Willie?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4a839db2a574df8bd5acba7da22db3c\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not about\u2014no, that is what you want to do. That\u2019s what\u2019s going to happen when you take the funding away. I want to honour and mihi to Marama Davidson, who set up the framework, who set up the strategy. And I\u2019ve got to say to these M\u0101ori members\u2014in particular, James, over there, and my good friend Tama Potaka\u2014wake up and start standing up for your people, because, at the moment, you\u2019re disappointing us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002207ba2aee15f7471a973589124c694455\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207ba2aee15f7471a973589124c694455\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the Government has indicated to me that it does not wish to continue in urgency and therefore this debate is interrupted and is set down for resumption next sitting day. The House stands adjourned until 2 p.m. tomorrow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 9.58 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240220ded1aa1719414e6d993f46d2d0d5f674000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"