"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f0aae3223c744881b9d79cf0d4b8f11d\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 27 FEBRUARY 2024\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022eab71578e193444c8242d7a95f978444\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 27 FEBRUARY 2024\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002241c73205efaf4e06b92a38daa3843008\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220b50dad2b6ca4a66a00c52b34a9743a5\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00224b791c189c474bea8f2e136d9fdf0d73\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b791c189c474bea8f2e136d9fdf0d73\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Almighty God, we give thanks for the blessings which have been bestowed on us. Laying aside all personal interests, we acknowledge the King and pray for guidance in our deliberations that we may conduct the affairs of this House with wisdom, justice, mercy, and humility for the welfare and peace of New Zealand. Amen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ba6e26243172429983c3e50357846ce4\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ce92a2cb117f4b4f825979d77c4573f5\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022a2399eb67b274f48959950d26a38355c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a2399eb67b274f48959950d26a38355c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Petitions have been delivered for the Clerk to present.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022b5eec04cf0f14e3c8f3a620e2ef5a391\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b5eec04cf0f14e3c8f3a620e2ef5a391\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EPetition of Andrew Munro requesting that the House introduce legislation requiring cat owners to stop their cats from killing our local bird life\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Epetition of Alistair Reese requesting the House legislate to recognise the oral agreement \u201C4th Article\u201D as part of the Treaty of Waitangi\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Epetition of Alisha Riley requesting that the House urge the Government to increase the GST threshold in its 2024 tax policy work programme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022324ef7d81b194566b8885262643d05ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022324ef7d81b194566b8885262643d05ce\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those petitions stand referred to the Petitions Committee. A paper has been delivered for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022a896c96005a44cabb04fffd3e41d0a37\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a896c96005a44cabb04fffd3e41d0a37\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: 2022-23 annual report of the Nursing Council of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002215fbfb61d0f749c9a4290977aa7ac667\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002215fbfb61d0f749c9a4290977aa7ac667\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That paper is published under the authority of the House. There are no select committee reports. I present the report of the Ombudsman entitled Children in care: complaints to the Ombudsman 2019\u20132023. Those papers are published under the authority of the House. No select committee reports have been presented\u2014no bills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fbf43b9323364edeb32e222c4afc9f2b\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220af5dbfce5e4411080f4abaea0673400\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002265ab8ad6f08c4896a51ab634467a9538\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022 data-id=\u002201cdfc2302eb4c99880edf1336a459ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201cdfc2302eb4c99880edf1336a459ef\u0022\u003EJAMIE ARBUCKLE (NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Health: What updates can she provide, if any, on the repeal of the Therapeutic Products Act 2023?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u00223793ae0232d247dcb62e48a2fadeb8ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223793ae0232d247dcb62e48a2fadeb8ed\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E The Government has committed to begin work to repeal the Therapeutic Products Act 2023 within its first hundred days. I will be taking a paper to Cabinet next week seeking approval to progress this work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ef1ca5d3d2e496492d1f249401e6604\u0022\u003EJamie Arbuckle\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the Minister want to repeal the Therapeutic Products Act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f13bade24b9444bfb33650846dc8a1a6\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: The Therapeutic Products Act was not fit for purpose. Appropriate regulation of medicines and medical devices is vital to ensure that these products do what they claim, are high quality, and that product approval pathways do not make them inaccessible or unaffordable. We also know that the current fragmented and outdated approach to the regulation of natural health products means that New Zealand is missing out on a significant proportion of opportunity to grow jobs and the economy. We need to develop a fit for purpose regulatory system for both.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb32b162a9ef434e9841b0012c793320\u0022\u003EJamie Arbuckle\u003C/span\u003E: Will repealing the Therapeutic Products Act adversely impact medical safety or health outcomes of New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225aef2a4431f8471b9fe29767031e2802\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: The Act has a commencement date of 1 September 2026, so no changes are required from the health sector or industry. I have received advice that implementing the changes required to meet the commencement date would\u2019ve been extremely challenging. This poses the real possibility of poor outcomes for New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5b4f2bf9d22466886fb23445709eef6\u0022\u003EJamie Arbuckle\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Minister intend to progress work on replacing the Therapeutic Products Act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c46b02b45ce846a48d6c62cd3ee5a256\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: The Government has an opportunity to replace the Therapeutic Products Act with legislation that protects consumers without creating unnecessary red tape on industry. We know that communities, the health sector, and industry have concerns, and we intend to listen to those concerns as we develop new proposals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2c323ba6ee14a48bc8e2b2bde41887b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: So will big pharma, that\u2019s tried to control this part of the market in New Zealand for the last 2\u00BD decades, be finally, again, put back in its place?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223169cf2577254028be5a4085e3ca33e7\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: We are confident we will have effective legislation that will deliver good outcomes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e3a8ffb8b98847fa87e36fe081b0b8a9\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab0098b9b0ad462dbb6270e4786d80cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab0098b9b0ad462dbb6270e4786d80cc\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u0022adb0f76e029b4d0f83f9caaf4e470b4b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022adb0f76e029b4d0f83f9caaf4e470b4b\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I do. In particular, I stand by the Government\u2019s action to conduct a ministerial inquiry into problems within the school property system\u2014problems driven by a culture of mismanagement under the previous Government\u2019s Ministers of Education, which have resulted in hundreds of projects facing huge escalations in both cost and scope. I also appreciate the member\u2019s most recent supportive remarks correcting earlier comments from Jan Tinetti denying there was even a problem. This Government stands by all of its actions to address the shocking educational outcomes delivered by that member\u2019s Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb9fba2ea59d471fa369e21b89cc7313\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Is it correct that school property capital expenditure for the Botany electorate increased from $3.7 million in 2017 to $11.9 million in 2022; if so, which of those projects does he believe were of low value?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022680cde80eefb4540abbc75247ec096ab\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: If the member would like to ask a specific question, I\u2019m sure I can give him a proper answer for that. But what I would say to you is: 350 schools were misled by the previous Government: \u201CWe\u2019re going to rescope your school; we\u2019re going to redesign it.\u201D Twenty before Christmas; 250, now 350; billions of dollars, lots of promises, no delivery, underfunded\u2014a pattern of behaviour we\u2019ve seen many, many times.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253e283512b5949dcac1ffdf5877db73d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with Christopher Luxon on the smoke-free law changes made by the previous Government: \u201CWe\u2019ve been really supportive. Anything to remove, you know, smoking harm I think is a good thing.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb777b6b2e4e47e78c4af1d7a3d440d8\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3778db0a2cd499a9f38141a420526e9\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: When he stated, \u201CWe believe \u2026 we can lower smoking rates with the legislation that exists today.\u201D, had he seen the Treasury advice that repealing the smoke-free environments Act changes will net the Government $500 million a year in extra revenue with more people smoking for longer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e31c6c391db4ff1b318935c82dc9a6d\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: What I have seen is the results from the last year, which has seen daily smokers go from 8.6 percent to 6.8 percent just in the last 12 months, with the legislation that we\u2019re going to readopt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231dc8afeb23247588207442481ce064e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Did his Associate Minister of Health advise Cabinet that the Ministry of Health estimated rolling back smoke-free law changes would cost the health system an estimated $5\u00A0billion and that smoking currently contributes to an average of 12 deaths per day in New Zealand; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5d9158b866d40e8888e0574ffd8e1da\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Our Associate Health Minister is very committed to lowering smoking rates. The smoking legislation that we\u2019ve seen over the last decade has actually halved daily smoking in this country. We are very confident that this will continue to lower smoking rates across this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220eb680eb35e643bb808ede325c73fb28\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. My question was about the advice that Cabinet received from the Associate Minister of Health. The Prime Minister didn\u2019t address that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d4f6cdcabe74a40b4bd4a99b35b4248\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m sure that he will if he\u2019s asked again. You can ask him again with no penalty to you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5e7a49823a745c69f3b2f6ad650db9c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Did his Associate Minister of Health advise Cabinet that the Ministry of Health estimates that rolling back smoke-free law changes will cost the health system an estimated $5\u00A0billion and that smoking currently contributes to an average of 12 deaths per day in New Zealand; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f738dd59a4c34979920d92cc6413446e\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Our decision is very clear: we\u2019re going to adopt the existing legislation\u2014that previously existed just a month before the election\u2014that has driven smoking rates down. Smoking rates are going to continue to fall under the existing legislation that we\u2019re going to readopt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232c76daea6e946b3b413cf3b16014301\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. It wasn\u2019t a difficult question; it asked what the Associate Minister of Health had advised Cabinet with regard to the cost and the number of people who die per day from smoking, and the Prime Minister hasn\u2019t addressed either of those issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9c81d9bcd31484898c1b667c79da39e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I don\u2019t think so. I assumed that that was part of the advice that he had got that lead to the answer. Why doesn\u2019t the Prime Minister\u2014[Addressing the Rt Hon Winston Peters] that\u2019s not you\u2014answer that one more time. Sorry, my apologies. I apologise to the member because I realise he\u2019s only at the mid-point in his career, so it could happen. Anyway\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e96e0ae80e4e48ccba35e9236b666b39\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Unlike the previous Government, we don\u2019t discuss stuff that happens in Cabinet\u2014unlike Stuart Nash.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee723065002e4114a68daf72f68d8941\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. Prime Ministers have regularly in this House been asked what advice Ministers have provided to Cabinet and have given answers on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237c66f82612f438eae7088d434d2a7b1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, previously. He just said they don\u2019t do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0c48eed6799473e9383fd752d9352e1\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister aware that the legislation that\u2019s seen the most dramatic change in the decrease in smoking levels in this country\u2014that law was written by New Zealand First, and not these people over here that are screaming about it right here, right now\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f6e27186989434e8960de3ef64834bb\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah\u2014first part of the question\u2019s good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d4733e1fc4d44928e73ae6e1da1e0ff\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. In respect of your most recent ruling, sir, there\u2019s a difference between advice that a Government\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fe31c47a01b47fbaf19e9c5c3703d8d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Could you speak more into your microphone, if you wouldn\u2019t mind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022648bba0bde7d44b79081fc1067756d2b\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: I think the microphone might be off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dccf0110e8a64590aa9e24bb9b120abc\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t think it is; it just needs to be up a bit. But carry on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022171049ba430647758374c94b3c4fd24a\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: As to your point of order, sir, there is a difference between advice that is provided to Cabinet and Cabinet discussions on what is before it. There is no obligation on the Government to disclose the discussions in a Cabinet made by different Cabinet Ministers, but Ministers can be asked what information was provided to Cabinet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b795017467bb413d8223846df9d7351c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: They can, and, in due course, they\u2019re likely to release it. They don\u2019t have to release it here in the House. And further to that point, it wasn\u2019t my point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ce23292de59450a8687a122577d19cd\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. Your intervention there may well have been an acceptable answer for the Prime Minister to give; it\u2019s not exactly a ruling, though. The Prime Minister is, effectively, refusing to answer the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df2abbf0a7c2495eaf41f13e1dd57609\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, to the part of your point of order, you\u2019re quite right\u2014I\u2019m an unrecognised talent. You\u2019ve got another supp?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225268fa9aa2f44f76b73a78f93540ae6d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Why did his Associate Minister reject proposals to stop tobacco being sold near schools?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da47fd7e16a94889ba9f86e22bb985c3\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, because, as I heard Ayesha Verrall\u2014Ministers take a range of advice on a range of topics, and she\u2019s free to do that. We have a clear programme forward: we want to lower smoking rates across this country and we\u2019re going to do it with the existing legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022599a8c5d615341479df4b226a788717a\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Why did his Associate Minister of Health reject proposals to raise the purchase age of tobacco to 25, given the advice from the Ministry of Health: \u201Cthere is strong evidence that starting smoking after 25 is uncommon.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee5365822ad94f8d97484600d230f203\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Ministers take a range of advice on a range of topics.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224df185dcca6e4a4e908ebd30490231df\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u002291a50d7fad174dc1a1054c3ee8eb655e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002291a50d7fad174dc1a1054c3ee8eb655e\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What recent reports has she seen on the cost of living?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u00228bd21e25c4ed4fd0b380f7736bf597cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228bd21e25c4ed4fd0b380f7736bf597cf\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Kiwis are continuing to be hit by high inflation and high interest rates. According to Statistics New Zealand, inflation in New Zealand was higher last year than in the US, the UK, Australia, Canada, Japan, and the European Union, which would suggest that claims made by previous Governments that this was all an international problem are not borne out by the data. Inflation is a big challenge. That\u2019s why we are taking urgent steps through our 100-day plan to beat inflation and rebuild New Zealand\u2019s economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c470d4d450ee451fa021abffc8a23590\u0022\u003EDan Bidois\u003C/span\u003E: What impact has this inflation had on low-income people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6aef8c3272e4652bdf10a6ab5738ea1\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, inflation is a thief in everyone\u2019s pocket but has hit our lowest-earning New Zealanders particularly hard. According to Stats NZ, living costs for low-income households, as measured by the household living-costs price indexes, rose by 20 percent in just the three years between the end of 2020 and the end of 2023. That compared to growth of just 18 percent over the whole nine years that National was in Government. So it\u2019s no surprise, then, that last week we learnt that more children were growing up in material deprivation and poverty thanks to the last Government\u2019s disastrous economic mismanagement. That\u2019s the price of Labour: more tax, more spending, and more families struggling with the cost of living.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022619ad4f27665463faba439126f18b9bb\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just remember that there is a rule that says you don\u2019t use Government supplementaries to attack the previous Government, and I will be very vigilant on that from this point on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209a923f4ceb048d595443c657a89a45d\u0022\u003EDan Bidois\u003C/span\u003E: What recent trends has she seen on inflation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c7df73172ff47c4bc0dbab614a65e06\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: In good news for Kiwis at the checkout, food price data released earlier this month showed food prices are increasing at their slowest annual rate since 2021, at 4 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5cd229a991e455a9432002dd8fc8016\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: All our own work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee9d89de920a48d2be1a2e02671cb3e0\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Compared to this time last year, there have been big drops in the price of tomatoes, Mr Hipkins, down 52 percent; and cheese, down 27 percent. But it\u2019s very early days. We know beating inflation won\u2019t be an easy fight, and that\u2019s why we\u2019re working hard in our 100-day plan to bring down costs on business, clear out the wasteful spending, and unblock the regulatory bottlenecks that are suffocating economic growth and putting more pressure on the price of everything. And we\u2019re not stopping after 100 days; there\u2019ll be plenty more coming after that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022506bc219e5574249b43ae8cec481273b\u0022\u003EDan Bidois\u003C/span\u003E: What actions is the Government taking to support Kiwis with the cost of living?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c3b56a457ae47ebbaa041259f45fcbe\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, just this week, the Government is legislating to end the Auckland regional fuel tax, delivering Aucklanders relief at the pump from the start of July after years of being fleeced to pay for projects they don\u2019t want, like cycleways and speed bumps. And there will be more to say later this year on our plans to deliver tax relief for New Zealanders. But this is a fantastic early announcement to support Aucklanders with the cost of living and let them keep and spend more of their own money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a0c8924935d04360ac39dd5f49f6c8b0\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u0022e1f1f6762b7445c6a83c4d791a77867c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e1f1f6762b7445c6a83c4d791a77867c\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What advice, if any, has she received on the proportion of the Budget operating allowance that will be required to meet cost pressures in Budget 2024?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022f7520e0492d54da29b71a8495a22d1f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f7520e0492d54da29b71a8495a22d1f3\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Can I first congratulate the honourable member on her appointment as Opposition finance spokesperson. I look forward to our exchanges in this House. I know that the member opposite has had enough experience in the Beehive to know that the calls on the Budget operating allowance are both Budget-sensitive but also subject to change on a weekly, if not daily, basis. However, I am able to be helpful in saying to the member that I received Treasury\u2019s briefing to the incoming Minister in November, which has been released, as has the accompanying slide pack. That slide pack contained a paragraph which stated: \u201CCurrent budget allowances are expected to be sufficient to fund critical cost pressures only, with limited room for new spending in the absence of reprioritisation and savings\u201D. What\u2019s clear is that future Budgets are under significant pressure because of the previous Government\u2019s woeful fiscal and economic mismanagement. Fortunately, this Government is committed to reprioritisation and saving.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227177d94e58bb431b9590f8592256ea63\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Is it correct that 79 percent of the new operating allowance in Budget 2023 was for cost pressures, and does she expect Budget 2024 will require a similar percentage to meet cost pressures?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022336a08c3f4644d93ba192a9e510f88a3\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the definition of \u201Ccost pressure\u201D depends a little on who\u2019s doing the defining. Say, Mr Robertson would probably define the urgent need for more back-office bureaucrats as a cost pressure. I wouldn\u2019t see it the same way, so I\u2019d be reluctant to endorse the figure that the member has used. However, what I would share with her is that what we know is that even before this Government formed, the previous Government had pre-committed 68 percent of this year\u2019s operating allowance, and we know that the sum of the fiscal cliffs they\u2019d left behind, at $7.2\u00A0billion, would more than have evaporated the entire operating allowance before we funded another single cost pressure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e24280e9fe8d485c99ac9f77c56bac0b\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: So therefore does she regret calling the money that has been set aside for cost pressures a \u201Cbuffer\u201D that could be used to pay for tax cuts if she cannot find other sources of revenue?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285552f70c4e240b69a945fa3cd6e9a63\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: I am both confident and happy about the fact that we have elected a coalition Government that is doing the hard and essential work of reprioritising low-value spending across Government. Members opposite may have been happy that on their watch the amount spent on consultants and contractors boomed, the number of people hired in back-office roles boomed, and there were low-value programmes, but our Government makes no apologies for being on a drive to ensure that dollars spent go to front-line services, go to delivering on our commitments such as more police, and go to ensuring New Zealanders can have more income in their back pockets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f76a927d09794097b70f321a2aec37d2\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Minister\u2019s definition of \u201Ccost pressures\u201D, then, include discovering the books were nearly $2 billion short of funding the pharmaceuticals New Zealanders have been led to expect?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a6c57257821444b9724208c2aee73a1\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the member makes a very good point, because we had a Government that was prepared to short fund funding for essential pharmaceuticals, leaving a fiscal cliff that we, as a responsible Government, are committed to filling. They managed to hide the commitment to the Crown in the books by doing that kind of time limited funding, and that is a practice that we won\u2019t be continuing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220442d94032bf41ae9a58185b3c8d7f94\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: In light of that answer, is she committed to meeting the cost pressures required to deliver core public services such as health and education? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e2a516da8e44d5f9701d1e95570c5c5\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, because our Government is committed to front-line services, and not backroom bureaucracy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022770c9c0e72864e3ea041bc053e3fb114\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Why, therefore, is she prioritising tax cuts over providing Kiwi kids with healthy classrooms they can learn in; properly paid teachers, nurses, and police; and the indexation of benefits to wage growth that would support our most vulnerable New Zealanders? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229235615d13134653ac5dc8b3669c23c5\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the member is going to have to keep up with the changing position of her leader, because this morning, as he detailed, he acknowledged that if he had been faced with the property situation inherited by our Minister of Education, then he too would have said, \u201CActually, that\u2019s not affordable. We\u2019re going to have to reassess it.\u201D, because that actually\u2014as the member should know\u2014is a responsible way to approach things. What I can say about this Government is that we want to ensure that we are delivering the classrooms needed for roll growth and the schools needed for roll growth and that we\u2019re ensuring that the school property programme is well funded, that it delivers good value for money, that it\u2019s fair, and that it\u2019s proportionate. We\u2019re going to be doing that while at the same time ensuring there is funding for schools and for hospitals, and\u2014by eliminating waste\u2014tax reduction for working Kiwis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5533855e8c64862a6d01008e17fab80\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Could I ask the Minister as to whether or not the $55 million Public Interest Journalism Fund, started in December 2020 and still existing now, is a cost pressure, and are there many other programmes far more worthy than this woke stupidity? [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264cfab1833a449488c1c0a5b52d61b90\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The Deputy\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226dff6e343bbd4424bd4e0b38fd4b0aa6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just a moment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4d01ff1e03d4bc5801fdb635788061f\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The Deputy Prime Minister raises\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022480be73fe8214ddfb73463f237f50b39\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just a moment. The questions are being asked in silence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224480258d810141ef84faec87ce1915b6\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll ask it again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022799fb26343664ab99335ce2bd52eff0d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, you can ask it again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fefb1c5573f42129b79f90d2772f694\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker\u2014you\u2019re getting better at the job every day. Could I ask the Minister of Finance as to whether or not the Public Interest Journalism Fund, started in December 2020 and still going now\u2014costing a colossal $55 million\u2014is a cost pressure that could have been far more worthily spent on schools and hospitals, and not some woke programme supported by the other side? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222bf7aa8dad640c6a883467bb1fa8300\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the Deputy Prime Minister raises a very good point, which is that the outgoing Government was extremely creative in their definition of cost pressures and essential spending. I well recall the COVID money that was used to fund consultants delivering a three waters plan, and the COVID money used to rent offices to include those three waters consultants in. So, on the other side of the House, we have people who claim that everything is essential. Well, on this side of the House, we know the value of New Zealanders\u2019 money and we\u2019re going to ensure they get to keep a bit more of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246a2299871ea40a09790c5048ab05bc2\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022520b608bb5fc46e8b94fb9ec02865e17\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b1c970d79d44668b9b41904b7d220c0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr McAnulty. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b6a216c6a1d4696ad5173a0c5964f5d\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Thanks, Mr Speaker. The concern I have here is that already you have pulled the Minister up for using patsy questions to attack the Government. In that instance, you waited until the end of the question, which is fine\u2014fair enough. But it was very clear very early on that that was the intent of that answer, and she wasn\u2019t pulled up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6649df455be4896a6ee57b185adc613\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, well, I apologise for being a bit slow. Another point of order over here? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2da03b0b94f491b9ca2e077ca182fa6\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, it\u2019s the same one, Mr Speaker\u2014just sort of noting that the Deputy Prime Minister appears to have a standing exemption from the Standing Orders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258bcc29d253547a0b7e4df7294c2528d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order. The first member that raised that point of order talked about \u201Cpatsy questions to attack the Government\u201D. Now, surely he got that wrong, so therefore the second point of order must fail as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227385cc9da8e54247890686cafd70e85f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I\u2019m not quite sure I follow that. But I take your point, Mr Shaw. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244f0536913c34734a5abc74cdf22d1a2\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Well, follow the Hansard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229807c05933bb40db8a97ed0cbb2eb2e4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I don\u2019t\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ce259722d8644c2b50e8ecb7acfc0d5\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Follow the Hansard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0444b1238834073826dc5bbb460181b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I will. I\u2019ll have a wee look. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbe89bc1fbf64076a8b82587178ebbaf\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207ab3ac57e3144a88cd5aea20207ca78\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, good\u2014thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227511017da3b043ea903eac6c3815b2da\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u0022056bd0c943594adaa71c20e2edcccbc9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022056bd0c943594adaa71c20e2edcccbc9\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9c453561b2a4e78923e7c9d8a148040\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9c453561b2a4e78923e7c9d8a148040\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I do, in the context they were given.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286c4f312f069475d961236e757fa19a7\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with Christopher Luxon, who said to the Bluegreens conference in 2023 that \u201CNational in Government will use the best scientific, financial, and environmental information available to us to chart a responsible, fair and sustainable way forward on environmental matters.\u201D, and, if so, how is this consistent with proposals for the new fast-track consenting process for permits to be approved by Ministers rather than expert panels?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283dcf6bd92aa4e74ab7b9cad98165bb9\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I do. I do stand by those statements I made earlier.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022976cc3635fcf4853865a85f05ca4941a\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement that \u201CThis is a Government that\u2019s going to be focused on lowering emissions and making sure that we meet our climate change commitments\u201D, and, if so, can he rule out supporting any new fossil fuel projects, such as the Te Kuha coalmine in the proposed fast-track legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5f83eac807545c191c32a6650a69e0d\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we\u2019re going to be a Government that\u2019s going to deliver on our emissions commitments and also grow our economy. We\u2019re not going to turn off growth opportunities in sectors across this country when we\u2019ve had three of the last four quarters left to us in decline by the previous Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a12a99927944770ad69a187cd57fbd6\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Can he rule out supporting any new fossil fuel projects, such as Te Kuha coalmine, in the proposed fast-track legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022675e043009214fc19087eb713c154bc0\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we have been on the record to say that we actually want to overturn the oil and gas ban, because we need gas as a transitory energy source as we make the transition to clean, green energy going forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d64c4a5690b4c65a38dc4a007c6ac54\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Can he rule out supporting any new fossil fuel projects, such as Te Kuha coalmine, in the proposed fast-track legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7262ce93bf74d1885a2d4b468f11223\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll just say to you: no projects have been brought forward to Cabinet yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb610a1994a34147aab0320449dd11c5\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary question\u2014supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1b2e4cc376442778edc4ffb3d8b966b\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: How\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d59bfb8a5a78405b9853e63be7975080\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022605cb9aa605047ce986a43120fb7cc9b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll let him finish his run.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022675379121eb84741bf8496ad1ea6dc6c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. With respect, I mean, that questioner has had his primary question with three following questions, and somebody rises to their feet to try and make this thing more factual and doesn\u2019t get a chance to get his point away before the next question is given to that side.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c18907312704e59b40f77762c1b3734\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, but I can\u2019t know that because I haven\u2019t heard your question, but I\u2019m hearing his first.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229396cae1257f45ada37c988909cfa628\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, but you heard my request for the next question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218ccb427c86f4f90939ad7a35156ec4a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have, yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c77c3d8692af4f11b036ca2cf70cde3d\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: How will he, as the Prime Minister, ensure that any potential conflicts of interest for the listed projects that are proposed to be approved by Ministers are raised and discussed to meet expectations in the Cabinet Manual?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295ed10fffff94d22a42b1714eee1e2b7\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Again, we have not had fast-track consenting legislation come before the Cabinet and it has not yet been discussed. What we have is a very good process to make sure we\u2019re managing potential conflicts of interest, real or perceived. We have clear processes around that that make sure that we\u2019re compliant with the Cabinet Manual.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bde5b3e68074f498a5484dfc65246c9\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Prime Minister and his Government considered the fact that there is a preference in using New Zealand coal rather than to be importing inferior Indonesian coal, which was the practice of the former Government? [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00220c8f60d322844e25a2bfed579f1efe91\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c8f60d322844e25a2bfed579f1efe91\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Question No. 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022621c0bb4553448dfbba131967a41c279\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u0022775e04afddf842babd774fb51c35302e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022775e04afddf842babd774fb51c35302e\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Health: Does she stand by all her statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u0022f798e79c9380494f8c0b8198d784b7b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f798e79c9380494f8c0b8198d784b7b2\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, in particular my statements that I\u2019m absolutely committed to the Smokefree 2025 targets, and to providing practical, targeted help so that smokers who are addicted to nicotine can stop.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ed08d5ae4d54225afc7f041fd249aaf\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Was she advised by officials that repealing the 2022 amendments to the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Act would mean that the smoke-free goal would not be met until 2061?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022878e75a6e0af4844b59de005674175ea\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: I received a range of advice from officials, and we\u2019re continuing to develop good legislation and programmes to achieve the Smokefree 2025 targets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225492957f330a470a8229725f641e1d5e\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. It was a very simple question. Was she advised: yes or no?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6a501f3d0d541e9a1339f4e8c02ddcb\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You can\u2019t ask for a yes or no answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a68f95a87d6b463f876f43421831ec47\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: She could address it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272856098e6954973b208ebb96cb85b1f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think it was addressed, by saying that a range of advice was sought.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022570033549f7a4d95a40826e45a7b282b\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t think it was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232fee26517a543e8822d82c1eb1b1ef5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I know you don\u2019t think that, but I\u2019m here and you\u2019re not, so\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022281e7217bbf44f4a8c84fb6cab31dc2f\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Was the Minister advised by officials that repealing the 2022 amendments to the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Act would mean that the goal was not reached until 2061?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4359b0201f64a3abce8c2440f7dd1a3\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: As I said, I\u2019ve received a range of advice. Some of that advice was based on statistical data that was not current. In the last three years, we have seen 219,000 people have stopped smoking, with vaping playing a key role. Importantly, 79,000 of those who stopped smoking\u201436 percent of those who quit\u2014were M\u0101ori. We are now receiving statistics where we have a smoking rate of 6.8 percent of New Zealanders daily smoking, which is down from the 8.6 percent, which was one of the statistics that that data was based upon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f49d9c37523a4739b5ed92140b68b67c\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: How does she justify repealing the 2022 amendments to the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Act when she was advised that that bill would substantially close the difference in life expectancy between M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd799b6bda4449238f98d75a570f44a5\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: We were absolutely committed to achieving the smoke-free targets, and we are going to implement systems that target addicted smokers, and not generalist, virtue-signalling approaches that are unproven.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287ccb45ad569460f85c876a359b9a15a\u0022\u003EAndy Foster\u003C/span\u003E: Has she received reports on the tobacco black market?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022651a8feaace5445888df9dcdb583db1f\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: There has already been a substantial black market for cigarettes and crime attached to tobacco retailing, and Customs are seeing a high volume of seizures of tobacco, both large and small, and through multiple channels, and an increase in large seizures. It is noted that the previous Government invested $10 million in the 2022 Budget for a dedicated tobacco enforcement team in Customs, and we will continue with Labour\u2019s unworkable, woke, virtue-signalling plans. This experimental prohibition regime will make this problem even worse. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227becfb0567a94b22a3711f64d936399e\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Why does she refuse to be interviewed on why she is repealing a law that would save $5 billion in health costs, and don\u2019t New Zealanders deserve to know the answer to that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d5b72932cb7461f9f890969bc550cea\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: I have been interviewed on numerous occasions on this issue, and I am looking forward to having media interviews on the effective legislation and regulations that we will introduce to ensure that people who are addicted to nicotine smoking will have the tools to quit, and that youth vaping will decline.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f9c5c61034e541318787d50e89ab0cab\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022 data-id=\u0022956a75857abf490eb37f511db0fc01b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022956a75857abf490eb37f511db0fc01b2\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s policies and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u0022441a4cdc6bd0449a99f066ff894542e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022441a4cdc6bd0449a99f066ff894542e6\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, in the context they were given.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4b145e3d6ba4281b5d25be00f8cd741\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: How can he justify introducing legislation to abolish Te Aka Whai Ora two days before the Waitangi Tribunal\u2019s urgent hearing into Te Aka Whai Ora, when his Government has known since 19 January that an inquiry was set to take place?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fae006fcedbd43ac855fe10fcb8dbd73\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Because we opposed it from its very conception, we spoke about it extensively in Opposition and opposed it in Opposition, we campaigned on it in the election campaign, and we put it into our 100-day plan as part of forming a new Government. It\u2019s been very well signalled that we do not believe that bureaucracy is the way in which we drive better health outcomes for M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204291302c2424b978ec0ac2e0adb8331\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree that by ignoring the tribunal\u2019s request to introduce legislation to abolish Te Aka Whai Ora after the inquiry has been completed, his Government is bypassing judicial process and oversight?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229679680987364f8ea7d95d9bbab152b9\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: No, the tribunal will again have the jurisdiction to consider a claim after the legislation comes into effect. But we have been very, very clear in our opposition to the M\u0101ori Health Authority. We do not believe it\u2019s the way in which we deliver better health outcomes for M\u0101ori\u2014period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bc9bae3f3064d539e5cd75f6ffa9c73\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: How can he justify dismantling the M\u0101ori Health Authority in the same week as repealing smoke-free legislation, when M\u0101ori die seven years earlier, on average, than non-M\u0101ori and smoking is our leading cause of premature death?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2aea3fda27b4e6aabb8a956db3793da\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: We have seen tremendous halving of smoking rates amongst M\u0101ori\u2014from memory, something like 37 percent down to 16 percent in the space of a decade\u2014under the legislation that we\u2019re supporting putting back into law. So we\u2019re going to continue to drive smoking rates down for M\u0101ori and for non-M\u0101ori, and we\u2019re going to continue to get better health outcomes for M\u0101ori by using local iwi providers\u2014localism and devolution, not centralisation and control\u2014and I thought that member would appreciate that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edcc6761f9b146f8a6817dd8c9950b36\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister trying to say that New Zealand is not actually governed by the Waitangi Tribunal but instead by a Government elected by the people at democratic elections?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022448ceba4b3d84f40b411c32476c1ed9d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that was a really interesting statement. We\u2019ll move on to another supplementary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4053620576c4b72bf6f3e5bd01df5af\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Does he consider a Government\u2019s use of urgency to progress a political agenda without public scrutiny to be an abuse of the democratic process?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293b4e5c1716b477e9b1bf36d931d38ad\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: In Opposition, we opposed the M\u0101ori Health Authority from its very conception\u2014we have opposed it in Opposition. We went to the election campaign and said we would dismantle it. We formed a Government; within a matter of days, we had a hundred-day plan to dismantle it\u201449 actions in 100 days. That\u2019s what we\u2019re doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd72d86ee46e4bcfbf4699ce31aa974c\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Look, I\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221384e10a375c4d86b67b80291a886d51\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ll just wait for a bit of silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8369543f66e4257bc36958dc2ef29e5\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 koe, te P\u012Bka. The question was the use of urgency\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0b0b952bdc0412699605a411612525f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, the Rt Hon Chris\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aec3481a82364b21a638732b91fadf41\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, sorry\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffa31802ba2b4209a0f55ac75dafb458\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: She\u2019s raising a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d494c4067364cf8964c6485f27c4392\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, were you raising a point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022170230e683724ffbbb8b341161896186\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275082657e5104d28a47007d3f99b3fec\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, sorry. Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ee9e10624f2464898aad7448db597ea\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: My question was addressing the use of urgency, not the campaigning spiel. It was to address: \u201CWas the promise in the 100-day to utilise the use of urgency?\u201D That\u2019s the question that was asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f065203c4a054c6fa97ab0f1bd499d3b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, OK, the Prime Minister doesn\u2019t have direct responsibility for the use of urgency. The Government may move it, but the House decides. So the Prime Minister may want to make a comment, but the question is not quite in line with the primary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8d14924a93746ed92deac9476326bc3\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: As I\u2019ve said before, it\u2019s entirely\u2014well, it\u2019s been incredibly well signalled by our Government that we want to dismantle the M\u0101ori Health Authority. Why? Because we believe in actually delivering better health outcomes for M\u0101ori. We\u2019re going to do it in a different way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223509ae89b8744437ab73e214cf0e0aae\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I just wanted to check with you whether the rules around talking on cellphones in the debating chamber have changed, or whether, in fact, the tobacco lobby should wait until after question time to contact the Deputy Prime Minister with their feedback.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b96a347ef4384c33af06a895dbd59e0e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Now, I just think\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022603e60b2d5ab4410a2438f0bf5f21b6f\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order. Mr Speaker. That\u2019s a disgraceful insinuation, especially when somebody\u2019s going to be out of this House within a few weeks. But the real point is: no, I was pursuing a lawyer that acted illegally, and I\u2019m going to make sure I win against him. That\u2019s what the phone call was about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c084fe9a774547199d630051d166bb3a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, you can\u2019t use cellphones now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002272bf5a6cbd8c4177b2ebb3912c2e5b9d\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Social Development and Employment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u00227b208b225ab44545adfc3e6a3544a1b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b208b225ab44545adfc3e6a3544a1b7\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: Does she agree with the deputy chief executive of MSD, who told the Social Services and Community Committee, \u201CThey do not get punished, that\u2019s unfair\u2014they do not get sanctions. They do not get sanctioned, they do not get sanctions for not coming to our work seminars\u201D; if so, will she commit to ensuring people do not face sanctions for not attending work seminars?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u0022053edfaa426a4fc48c475b0d4e685139\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022053edfaa426a4fc48c475b0d4e685139\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Associate Minister for Social Development and Employment)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister for Social Development and Employment: I thank the member for his question, and on behalf of the Minister and in answer to the first question: yes, because the discussion at select committee on this topic was incomplete as the committee abruptly adjourned and the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) made clear in a later answer to the committee that those who failed to turn up to work seminars can be sanctioned. I understand that MSD thought the member\u2019s question at select committee referred to job expos and work seminars. To clarify, job expos do not automatically result in a sanction for non-attendance. For the vast majority of job seekers, attendance is encouraged and voluntary. In some circumstances, MSD will require attendance at expos, which can result in a sanction. To answer the member\u2019s second question: no. This Government has reset the welfare system\u2019s expectations, including applying sanctions where job seekers refuse to comply with their obligations. We expect job seekers to attend work seminars as part of the reasonable steps they must take to become work-ready and find work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f71d8a986564f1dbcdff80760cc4547\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Why is she able to quantify how many people get sanctioned for missing work obligations, such as failing to attend work seminars, but she can\u2019t quantify how many people enter employment as a direct result of engaging with work obligations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef9326e4b23b40af8d21cd4a2006a267\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: The information is collated on an individual basis, so those that attend work seminars will then have noted in their files whether they got employment from it or not. But MSD doesn\u2019t collate all that information up and have one source of information about how many got into employment from attending job seminars.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022972ad5dfd5e44ce8ba8ca15f476a886b\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: How then can she be confident that the work obligations she wants to impose on people will help them get into jobs when she can\u2019t show any evidence of these work seminars meaningfully supporting people into stable, secure employment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f3ca7ac5d214125bd0a0837e090aab1\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: There are 190,000 people on jobseeker benefits. That\u2019s a 70,000 increase under Labour. So, clearly, nothing was working previously and it behoves us to ensure that we try a variety of means to assist people into employment, including work seminars, including job expos, and, as I explained in my previous answer, that information about whether attending a work seminar got someone into employment is kept for that individual; it\u2019s just not collated up across the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232a711c154dc43e7adefc1e326926a57\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: How can she be confident that work seminars support people into employment when the people in charge of running them could not be up front with select committee members about the consequences of not attending these seminars and she is refusing to present evidence on whether they support people into employment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278e70eeb377b4346904725c9e4273e93\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t believe that the people were refusing or misleading in any way. They made it very clear that they had misunderstood the question at select committee, that they thought it was both job expos and work seminars. We know that the job seminars do assist people in getting into employment. We know that it helps with getting their CVs together; it helps with learning interview techniques; and we know that, for example, at a recent seminar in the top of the South Island, 82 Kiwi job seekers turned up and 64 received interviews from that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c9556b3a7df4fce94426b002f55938f\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Will she commit to reporting outcomes of these work seminars, and, if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc74102589854ecab0ac53c124d90c5c\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: As I explained, those outcomes are reported and are recorded on an individual basis; they are just not collated right across the country. So, on an individual basis, someone turning up to a work seminar, it will be recorded whether it was successful in supporting them into employment or not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e5aee6104874b5e8e51469c897f4ebc\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: If these outcomes are not collected nationally, how does she know that forcing people to attend work seminars to avoid facing sanctions is supporting people into meaningful, secure employment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df4e22608b33419ebcf206767d8ce6d7\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: We know that there\u2019s a range of things that have to be done to assist the 190,000 people to have a really good chance to get into employment. Obviously, things like getting help in putting CVs together, getting help in interview techniques, getting help with getting their driver\u2019s licence\u2014all those things assist towards it. We know that the fact that an extra 70,000 going on to the jobseeker benefit since the previous Government was in power has meant that it hasn\u2019t worked. So we should be trying every single thing we can to assist people into employment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fc4522db6bc3446d9e854180bed6842b\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Justice\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022 data-id=\u002207f204b686f941a7974eaf93c9ec4056\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207f204b686f941a7974eaf93c9ec4056\u0022\u003EPAULO GARCIA (National\u2014New Lynn)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: What recent announcements has the Government made about restoring law and order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022d859586ec89b402f893482e684a6e861\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d859586ec89b402f893482e684a6e861\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E On Sunday, the Government announced a raft of measures aimed at addressing harm caused by gangs. Gangs\u2019 insignia will be banned from public display, gang gatherings will be disrupted by police-issued dispersal notices, gang associates separated by court-issued non-consorting orders, and, finally, we\u2019re giving greater weight to gang membership as an aggravating factor at sentencing. This Government is serious about restoring law and order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268c8807c15274bbfb041771bd56ca109\u0022\u003EPaulo Garcia\u003C/span\u003E: Why is addressing the harm caused by gangs important?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbb54af996474b16a4fef1bd2a1c0595\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, because gangs cause serious harm. They spread violence, deal in drugs, and create intergenerational drama. For too long, they\u2019ve been allowed to behave as if they\u2019re above the law\u2014they are not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fc171a581b44637b7905f09f88c1bd4\u0022\u003EPaulo Garcia\u003C/span\u003E: What statistics has he seen on law and order in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bb95a8b66b6484aa21bff6476d90b88\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: In the past five years, gangs have recruited more than 3,000 new members and there has been significant escalation in gang-related violence, public intimidation, and shootings. Violent crime has increased by 33 percent; gangs play a significant part in this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca71f5fdb5f44dacbf1d7501f3872b28\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: What is the purpose of his non-consorting orders when sections 112 to 123 of the Sentencing Act already have a comprehensive framework for non-association orders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228cbbced59ef1403d9f515e439ed64b1e\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the purpose of the non-consorting legislation is to stop serious gang offenders meeting with particular other serious gang offenders to create crimes. That is a piece of legislation that we\u2019ve learnt from some of the Australian states, and it\u2019s making a real impact on disrupting the gang activity. So the real purpose is to make it more difficult for the gangs to operate effectively in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222744b23994c94389879577dadf474476\u0022\u003EPaulo Garcia\u003C/span\u003E: What impact will the ban on gang insignia in public places have on freedom of expression?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224eb9950293e407f9329aed6a45db640\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it will have an impact on gangs\u2019 freedom to intimidate and create fear. Gang members want all the rights of being a New Zealander but none of the responsibility that comes with it. Expressing fear and intimidation is not a form of expression that this Government supports.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa7b33a759f64714aec424037f67db28\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: What is the purpose of his reforms around the sentencing of gang members when section 9 of the Sentencing Act already makes it clear that being a gang member is an aggravating factor?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258526cf4c4114468a7e5b236d5cfd521\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the purpose of this legislative change is to also remove the need for a connection between being a gang member and that specific crime that has been caused. We want to make the broader point that gang membership has an impact on the overall wellbeing of this country in terms of law and order. The other point of it is this very simple idea that a political party would campaign in Opposition to do something and, when elected, they do it. That\u2019s what we\u2019re doing in this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229d37b3fd01f41b697734339e7c96e81\u0022\u003EPaulo Garcia\u003C/span\u003E: How are the commitments to restore law and order progressing as outlined in the Government\u2019s 100-day plan?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265e694e0b8404fbe849651d4f245d2fe\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, well, thank you\u2014this Government is making excellent progress. We\u2019ve abolished the prison target reduction, we\u2019re stopping taxpayer funding for section 27 reports, we\u2019ll soon introduce legislation to implement our package to tackle gangs, and my colleague Minister McKee will have further announcements to make on restoring law and order very soon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272d215d26751475cab5ca41ca6bc5d5a\u0022\u003EHon Nicole McKee\u003C/span\u003E: How would incorporating gang affiliation as an aggravating factor during sentencing enhance the safety of our communities throughout New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed5a470d88b44ab9a3828c41677a1ac5\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, by giving greater weight to gang membership as an aggravating factor in sentencing, courts will be able to impose more serious punishments on to an individual who has an association with gangs. We\u2019re restoring serious consequences for crime and delivering on our commitments as set out in the coalition agreement between both ACT and New Zealand First and the National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002200372f3ce56349ddaf1d4a5aac59a04c\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u00229d1aeeddb2a34bcc98b6ae2404902701\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d1aeeddb2a34bcc98b6ae2404902701\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Does he stand by all his statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u00227b71a34bdd064484ba6a3f2f6ebaf2a0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b71a34bdd064484ba6a3f2f6ebaf2a0\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, in the context they were given.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235e1902519544b808eda3a528f88f0ad\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by this answer regarding the repeal of the M\u0101ori Health Authority: \u201Cwe\u2019ll take on board all discussions and all dialogue from all parties.\u201D, and, if so, why did his Government bring forward the disestablishment of the M\u0101ori Health Authority, bypassing the urgent inquiry by the Waitangi Tribunal?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022559d24a539e240d0ac7ddab6cb9aedc0\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ll always remain open to any dialogue from any parties and from any citizens, from M\u0101ori, from anyone who wants to help us advance the cause of M\u0101ori health outcomes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb6d6c3b9508491185843114262ad28e\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Why, then, could the Minister\u2019s bill not wait two more days for the urgent claim to be heard by the Waitangi Tribunal, or is it this Government\u2019s intention to avoid the Waitangi Tribunal on all matters?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e1682b5ad804fc6ba6a81a39d485a6b\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI\u003C/span\u003E: The Waitangi Tribunal will still be able to critique the legislation after enablement, so we\u2019re very comfortable with the position that we\u2019ve taken. What we\u2019ve also wanted to do is give some surety to staff with the M\u0101ori Health Authority so that they can see a vision and a pathway forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221942305a1ee949be829114bbbe06d7aa\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister accept that this Government\u2019s breach of Te Tiriti o Waitangi will lead to further claims before the Tribunal and further court litigation, or will he just simply do the right thing and remove his bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bf3bc8f02fd4d38be5143eb8237ec75\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI\u003C/span\u003E: What I accept is that we will involve M\u0101ori in the monitoring and the delivery of health services to improve M\u0101ori health outcomes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227713f4ee5c1947499fdb3db30038fd38\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Question No. 11\u2014a point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb511beb796d410099694c25320e7a5a\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: A question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b787ca699cc4e0895dac1643dc1b74a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, OK. Away you go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d68f3d06619487eb669b3c800a89415\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister accept that given the M\u0101ori Health Authority did not exist until two years ago, the abolition of it cannot possibly be a breach of the Treaty?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ed7f5636ed94b6f908f85c9a2cc2362\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI\u003C/span\u003E: What I accept is, as the member says, that the M\u0101ori Health Authority has been challenged, and we seek to do a better job with M\u0101ori health outcomes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aeb2b7b58dc2486ebf8c640d9a5bfa9b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I should have been a bit quicker there. That question did seek an opinion that\u2019s outside of the Minister\u2019s scope of responsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ba4bdad2ce041dd922d548b0c89c890\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: It followed on from the primary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233d02b6ed1b74618b2539b6fca0f3fa0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I beg your pardon?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022816042da0b1643c0ab66b8712dccbf12\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: It followed from the primary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d5972c83cb8746cb964db5e02b6ee05a\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022 data-id=\u0022a00c3c4ac32742e28ebf407f62ed6a58\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a00c3c4ac32742e28ebf407f62ed6a58\u0022\u003EKATIE NIMON (National\u2014Napier)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What recent announcements has she made about school property?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u0022e05373420c3a49f1a2b5cb7658c10478\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e05373420c3a49f1a2b5cb7658c10478\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Yesterday, I announced a ministerial inquiry into the Ministry of Education\u2019s school property function. This review will address the challenges the Ministry of Education face in not being able to deliver the current pipeline of school infrastructure projects\u2014in particular, the failure to sufficiently implement a value-for-money approach, schools having expectations beyond what could be delivered on, and significant cost escalations. It is important to understand why these challenges have emerged in recent years to ensure we can deliver the school property our children deserve. I want to ensure that the school property portfolio is meeting the core infrastructure needs of schools.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2ec46512aeb46c5b37f15ce9d117ee4\u0022\u003EKatie Nimon\u003C/span\u003E: Why is this inquiry needed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266648afa4ae54b589c86911b98a8e9e3\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: The coalition Government has inherited a pipeline of projects that were unable to be delivered on. In September 2023, the Ministry of Education began a review of property projects. In January, I was informed that up to 350 projects needed to be reviewed for cost-effectiveness. By their own admission, the ministry have advised me that these challenges are due to building-cost increases but also due to scope creep and over-reliance on bespoke designs and over-engineering add-ons, like extensive landscaping and infrastructure. A ministerial inquiry will consider how we can best achieve a portfolio that is managed efficiently and effectively and delivers cost-effective learning spaces that are functional, warm, dry, and fit for purpose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225111adf43978416ea07b7ea91f46dda3\u0022\u003EKatie Nimon\u003C/span\u003E: What has she heard from principals since she announced the inquiry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a627542bedf4cd197b994962a02840d\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: I have been talking with principals about their property concerns since the day I became the Minister. Since this announcement, I have already received reports that principals are welcoming this inquiry. On RNZ this morning, Vaughan Couillault of the Secondary Principals Association of New Zealand\u2014SPANZ\u2014said that principals are really pleased that the Minister has listened to the sector. I also received communication from a school board member saying, \u201CI would like to applaud the Minister for undertaking the Ministry of Education property review. It is badly needed and overdue.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227908e795cf7441eb878ce6cdd57eea1f\u0022\u003EHon Jan Tinetti\u003C/span\u003E: Will the inquiry into school property she announced yesterday look at the cuts the previous National Government made into school property and the subsequent impact on school property assets; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9582e0198a8433c8d4da57bd0798f60\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think it\u2019s brave of that member to ask a question, given that this morning on air she said that all of the properties in her portfolio, when she was the Minister, were funded and factored into the Budget. Just mere hours later, her leader had to correct her and say that he would not guarantee absolutely every single one of them. He would probably have also asked his officials to rescope the work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e14e2e15d3574c6e866a3fd14830a0d9\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Mr Speaker, we waited till the end in the hope that there would be any attempt to address the question. That was certainly responded to but not addressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c1fb5aec7df4ca5a0fe8472b40ec466\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you\u2019ve also got to accept that that was a politically motivated question\u2014and somewhat loaded\u2014and, therefore, there\u2019s a high degree of leniency in the way it\u2019s answered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229636c2197d5f455fab7f3acb7cc0d2ba\u0022\u003EKatie Nimon\u003C/span\u003E: What can schools expect while the inquiry is under way?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5e2e170a96c4d318315884b49db5ee5\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: I received an email from a principal today whose build was supposed to start in July last year and has been delayed. She stated, \u201CAll we want in this community is good, clear communication and a pathway forward.\u201D I have made it clear to the Ministry of Education my expectation for schools is to receive timely and accurate information about their projects in the coming weeks. While the inquiry is under way, I will be working with the ministry to find solutions for schools facing critical pressures in roll growth, condition, and compliance. I want to be clear that school property is a priority for this Government, and our inquiry will ensure that we deliver cost-effective, warm, dry classrooms to as many schools as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f653a1ee854e43e9ab74e9cb635bc8d8\u0022\u003EHon Jan Tinetti\u003C/span\u003E: Will she guarantee no cuts to school property capital expenditure?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243631b3973454e00b6eb5b58eebcb7f3\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e5815b4e3d754aa8ae2a65c9869d14f3\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Environment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022 data-id=\u00220e70645f1e56463a92c0e03298fe5f8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e70645f1e56463a92c0e03298fe5f8e\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for the Environment: What recent announcements has she made regarding the clean-up of old landfill sites?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022 data-id=\u002201d1ffe0b8174d8db911fd3221321d4e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201d1ffe0b8174d8db911fd3221321d4e\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E On Saturday, I had the pleasure of announcing that the Government is granting $6.6 million to clean up four historic New Zealand landfill and dump sites which are vulnerable to extreme weather events and coastal erosion. The Contaminated Sites Remediation Fund grants will go towards fixing former landfills and dump sites.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aafbd5e33b6d481fbdc8970e7f948fbe\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: Why is it important that these sites are remediated?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255bd89eb535643d48de42bc0a2f0219a\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: These sites are in low-lying coastal areas and near river margins, leaving them at risk of being compromised by storm surges, rainfall events, high river levels, and flooding. This funding will address the risk of the sites being breached by a natural event, exposing waste materials and contaminating the surrounding land and waterways. Historic landfills can become a threat to communities and the environment through the effects of extreme weather events. The Government supports local government to deal with the legacy of land contaminated by past practices, directing funds each year to sites considered regional priorities. This funding will help restore these contaminated sites so they no longer pose a risk to communities and the environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022504773279d4d482bb377085940e90041\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: What specific projects have been funded as a result of the Contaminated Sites Remediation Fund?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9a3fd8afe9043ac81d14c65ed2b631c\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: Starting in Southland, the Bluecliffs land site is situated on a former gravel pit located within Te Waewae Bay. Coastal tides and the Waiau River mouth flooding have eroded parts of the site and surrounding areas. That council has been granted $1.35\u00A0million for its remediation. The St Andrews Beach landfill project will focus on developing a remediation plan led by Environment Canterbury. They have been granted $135,000 towards this planning project. Nelson City Council is leading a remediation project after sawdust contaminated with arsenic and other chemicals was exposed by erosion in a car park at T\u0101hunanui Beach in June 2023. That council has been granted $134,000 towards the planning of this project. And, finally, Gisborne District Council is receiving $4.98 million to develop a remediation plan and carry out remediation works at the former Tokomaru Bay landfill. The retired land site area is susceptible to flooding\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc15f96e13ae4fa3b16d537e8dd4d060\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Good\u2014this is really good. What about you table it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4dfc2de523d4d53bea5ba93472eeca2\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: Recent\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225438c3c7a29e4926be93cf82ae3259ef\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, just, that\u2019s it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258322a98e304436ca9ead2567d326de3\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: Enough?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0f7d829e3f749b8abd358c4a463d0a6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, well and truly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c71113834c194b04a2580dc50dc78d9c\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: What else is the Ministry for the Environment doing to help local communities with historic landfills?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214b2894ec2314798bc1d4479124a3006\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: The ministry is now working with regional councils to refine the assessment tool and use it to evaluate landfills that have not yet been assessed. These assessments will help councils make decisions on how to manage the risk associated with the vulnerable landfills and contaminated sites, such as reducing the level of contamination, better containing the sites, or removing the contents of landfills. I wish to thank the ministry and councils up and down the country for their continued work in this space.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022280a7437be4f4551a3c4bdd334e2a3f1\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Contaminated Sites Remediation Fund be spared the 6.5 to 7.5\u00A0percent funding cuts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d2995873-613f-4202-a773-5ea2d57cc953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022857a68bc6ea543f2b4ebd4fbd0b48d43\u0022\u003EHon PENNY SIMMONDS\u003C/span\u003E: The remedial contamination fund will be used in the way that it\u2019s going to be best used to help the environmental and community outcomes of this country. The 6.5 to 7.5 is being concentrated, as we have been asked to, on the backroom functions, not on the funding that we get out to the grassroots where the work is being done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226b0835d2503843bebef78a1b6eb2829f\u0022\u003EUrgent Debates Declined\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002266bbabab383c49ee9e1b64890f5201ac\u0022\u003EUse of Urgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002219051c5db2074b5b822de057bc398363\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002219051c5db2074b5b822de057bc398363\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, I\u2019ve received a letter from Debbie Ngarewa-Packer and Rawiri Waititi about seeking to debate under Standing Order 399 the use of urgency. An urgent debate can only be held about a particular case of recent occurrence. An accumulation of information or a series of leads does not constitute a particular case of recent occurrence\u2014Speakers\u2019 rulings 221/2 and 221/3. More importantly, it is the House that decides whether urgency will be held. While Ministers may move a motion for urgency, Standing Order 58 requires the House to agree before urgency can be held. Urgent debates are not a mechanism for debating decisions of the House. The proper forum for that is the Standing Orders Committee. The application is therefore declined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u0022cbff121f8ab74c13b24a53fa9fa34050\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cbff121f8ab74c13b24a53fa9fa34050\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Just in relation to that ruling, by my count, the Government has put 16 bills through urgency and one item of Government business not through urgency. So, recognising your point about the accumulation, there has to be a point at which we\u2019re able to debate whether it\u2019s appropriate for a ratio of 16 urgent items to one to go through the House, because the Government has the majority and is, essentially, railroading the House. We\u2019re at the point now where they can\u2019t argue that just because there was an election means that they can overturn parliamentary democracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7c8a1092ffb451eb0e73cdc5f25a920\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7c8a1092ffb451eb0e73cdc5f25a920\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think there are a couple of points. The first thing is all Governments have a majority\u2014that\u2019s just a fact of the way the Westminster system works. All Governments, from time to time, use urgency, and, as I have just ruled\u2014just ruled\u2014it is a matter for the House. Now, the public will make a decision about how they view these things, but that is a calculation for the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213d93571cad64b03b2879c3e39a33aaa\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: So it\u2019s OK to use urgency for the next three days\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252539705f6454414994cd9e6f97e81e1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, if you want to stand and take a point of order to debate the ruling, then go for your life.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022 data-id=\u002284c520bb146a410abedab5d8394fa891\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284c520bb146a410abedab5d8394fa891\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226303cdd637c0480c99d8d85e621cd868\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: In the meantime, point of order, Debbie Ngarewa-Packer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247d339d93dc845ef9ca29442c05e2041\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER\u003C/span\u003E: The point is, of the 16 bills that have come through this House, a large proportion are affecting communities who are made up of tangata whenua, who are denied the right to come in and be part of an open, transparent select committee, an open, transparent consultation. This is affecting M\u0101ori more than anyone else in Aotearoa, which is why we have put this request for an urgent debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022605d8cd04de54e73bae416cae4eeac93\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022605d8cd04de54e73bae416cae4eeac93\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I appreciate the fact that you have taken the opportunity to make the point, but it is not relevant to decisions of the House. So urgency is a matter for the House to determine, and if the motion is put today, the House will vote on that and the outcome of that will determine whether we have urgency or not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002242e1eacd00d3494a81d535fa78186b81\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227ea8f202614c464ca7885a465ceed999\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022d69abc0463894d37a17058a95a21fdb9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d69abc0463894d37a17058a95a21fdb9\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That urgency be accorded the continued second reading of the Legal Services Amendment Bill, the introduction and passing through all stages of the Pae Ora (Disestablishment\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271b1cc68f60744aca23f4d5b6300fad4\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221081551ca3443d9ac224b908f1e37d2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, just a moment. You can start again in a moment. We\u2019ve got another point of order from Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c6aabc463a64a57bb640ab9215a0d40\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m in the middle of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c351bd673734b2c9dee3a0aadf96078\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a new point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022626e307e41e647d2904cce7b87a6475d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022626e307e41e647d2904cce7b87a6475d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve called him because he\u2019s called a point of order, OK?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022576754372238485580b7ed771f036810\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022576754372238485580b7ed771f036810\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Musterer\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E Sorry, this is a new point of order\u2014if I may. I was waiting for this to conclude so\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4517a90b1e14423b1ac69349b81123b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s good\u2014get on with it. It\u2019s all right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299149484b9bf4eba8e0f0a489038d2e5\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014that I could raise it in relation to question time. So this is in relation to Speaker\u2019s ruling 23/6, and I\u2019ve raised Speaker\u2019s ruling 24/2 in relation to occurrences that happen during question time, particularly from interjections from the Deputy Prime Minister, particularly around that a point of order should use absolutely objective language and not accusatory language, and the language involved when raising points of order is very different from the language involved in debate, as well as constantly raising trifling points of orders being itself disorderly. I just want to reflect that there has been, throughout several question times, constant interjections from the Deputy Prime Minister which they themselves don\u2019t amount to legitimate points of order. And what I want to get a sense of understanding and reflection about is the standards that we\u2019re setting for the rest of us in terms of us also therefore being allowed to make interjections which they in themselves don\u2019t actually\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022e1609e8ca5214e9fa31f3704055b4e4d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e1609e8ca5214e9fa31f3704055b4e4d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that\u2019s a very good point. I\u2019ll take that under advisement. I will come back to the House on that. It\u2019s not something that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u002237813b718b1345d4ac9c174fd9ea1372\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002237813b718b1345d4ac9c174fd9ea1372\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Deputy Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022205492e492bc43e0ae0b7c9c201a91d1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: A separate point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220208e2799a894ac7a50e6d8ca3e4d62d\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a separate point of order, but it has insight with respect to what was just said, because that objection is being raised long after the time he should have raised it, and, for that reason, you should have ruled it out. We\u2019ve got people who don\u2019t understand Speakers\u2019 rulings here, or Standing Orders, and they\u2019re getting up and showing their ignorance every day\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b09cf218ad694802bb56218994725826\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you\u2014sit down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b72f2aea61cd49b6b33936b69120df83\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and he gets offended by it. But that should have been ruled by the fact that when he saw objection\u2014[Interruption] And by the way, points of order are heard in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb6d4f5c0125471b84261cf956083167\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right; they are, but there has to be a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022149bc12bd52647cd9a3bd86a21cda8a9\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, my point of order has been succinctly made. If he had any point of order, it had to be raised at the time he saw offence, not some time later. That\u2019s the old Standing Order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022dd3484a0224a4dd591b679c8eed628b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dd3484a0224a4dd591b679c8eed628b8\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That urgency be accorded\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022 data-id=\u00226bf065ab3a114327a76f50a5f6eb2268\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226bf065ab3a114327a76f50a5f6eb2268\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. I move, that this House hold an urgent debate on the appropriate use of urgency. The manner in which this Government has used urgency to progress its agenda, including the disestablishment of the M\u0101ori Health Authority, is an abuse of power.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022110b2ef5f3f948caa8a4ec53156e8c48\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022110b2ef5f3f948caa8a4ec53156e8c48\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that would be great if it were down on the Order Paper or if you had sought leave for such a motion; you simply cannot move it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022 data-id=\u002251c573b178b14e8dbc94935d6b9047b4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002251c573b178b14e8dbc94935d6b9047b4\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave of the House to hold an urgent debate on the appropriate use of urgency. The manner in which this Government has used urgency to progress its agenda, including this disestablishment of the M\u0101ori Health Authority, is an abuse of power.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002202774cfed78a461a953e79268e8fdb30\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002202774cfed78a461a953e79268e8fdb30\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The leave is sought. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022 data-id=\u002281765af3fd284eeda01768f75a4c1025\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281765af3fd284eeda01768f75a4c1025\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. The Government\u2019s use of urgency has deprived this House and the public the ability to scrutinise significant legislative measures\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b9b13486dd84d98a3b695c94936ea1a\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Sit down!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00221b45dd54c4884650acbce92b9224701c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b45dd54c4884650acbce92b9224701c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sit down. You can\u2019t use a point\u2014sit down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225410ac0410e14ddbbe9bd3999018a741\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I\u2019ll sit down because you said sit down; not because he said sit down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022e87a9d71f9524ba69ec2dfdf0bbd7043\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e87a9d71f9524ba69ec2dfdf0bbd7043\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, sit down because the Speaker stood.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287ffe38bc2094248adc056b06e695a4f\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, but not because he told me to sit down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00224e8e2db4b780446bb7a0fc8ad8cf98a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e8e2db4b780446bb7a0fc8ad8cf98a5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, of course not\u2014you wouldn\u2019t listen to him; you\u2019d be focusing on me. So the thing is, you can\u2019t use a point of order to make a statement; it has to relate to a point, and the House has made it very clear to me that I must now no longer indulge, on the basis of his seniority in this House, the Rt Hon Winston Peters\u2014and I won\u2019t\u2014but you cannot do that today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022 data-id=\u0022f39afe87f2f54923ada8fe11276ed668\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f39afe87f2f54923ada8fe11276ed668\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. I move, That the Pae Ora (Disestablishment of M\u0101ori Health Authority) Amendment Bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee9dd9af34904b1487a521b0ed2d58f3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. You can\u2019t do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227752ce05f8c044dab58d80796778654a\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I seek leave from the House that the Pae Ora (Disestablishment of M\u0101ori Health Authority) Amendment Bill is out of order while it is currently subject to an inquiry by the Waitangi Tribunal as of Standing Order 116.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00221376318f371543149e665e8d34bd0d73\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221376318f371543149e665e8d34bd0d73\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I hate to, you know, keep on getting pedantic about the rules here, but the bill that you\u2019re talking about is not on the Table of the House. Therefore, the leave cannot be put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022f394f1988c1f491e9169dd3372755a5c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f394f1988c1f491e9169dd3372755a5c\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That urgency be accorded the continued second reading\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022 data-id=\u00225fd9360792c1441988094ac5cf7139eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225fd9360792c1441988094ac5cf7139eb\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. I\u2019m just wanting clarification from the Speaker that the Pae Ora (Disestablishment of M\u0101ori Health Authority) Amendment Bill is not going to be discussed in the House through urgency. Is that what you\u2019re telling me?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022e9cb0a30679b4b44a39f056cab5b53f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e9cb0a30679b4b44a39f056cab5b53f0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not what I said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fa6a62b9cda45788382363b75edd852\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe44f5872f494426a02c31d63508d824\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe44f5872f494426a02c31d63508d824\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, sit down please Mr Seymour. What I said is quite simply, (1) you cannot move without leave of the House; (2) you can\u2019t seek leave of the House to, effectively, discharge a bill that at this point is not tabled. It may well be tabled later today, but it is not tabled currently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u00225338ba152dbf41b1a2d0121aaa3f4ad5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225338ba152dbf41b1a2d0121aaa3f4ad5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Minister for Regulation):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. Mr Speaker, I suspect I speak for quite a few members who are having their patience\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022f4e50dd57fd048d2b9f82b8f5fc1ba05\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f4e50dd57fd048d2b9f82b8f5fc1ba05\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it would be good if you had spoken to yourself and made it a real point\u2014[Interruption] Enough! Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d935636f5d924cc0b19aad48c77b76ab\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: You speak for yourself!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00225b8041187713439a96572a4801dea721\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b8041187713439a96572a4801dea721\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Hey!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u00225598670db0bc41288e1660eddbbff373\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225598670db0bc41288e1660eddbbff373\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Minister for Regulation):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, with respect, I think I have a right to raise a point of order without you interrupting. I think it\u2019s probably not just me but it\u2019s certainly me who is a little bit tired of repetitive trifling points of order from someone who hasn\u2019t taken the time to understand the rules, and I\u2019d like you to take a tougher line on him because we\u2019re all getting a little tired of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022be5a1b5c27c746e29464bd7bd522ae3c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be5a1b5c27c746e29464bd7bd522ae3c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s an interesting view, but the Speaker will always make his own decision about what advice he might give anybody in the House any time they might need it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022 data-id=\u0022772edee2eb8e4bb9846228796e82aba7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022772edee2eb8e4bb9846228796e82aba7\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. I\u2019d like to record\u2014and take that particular Minister to task\u2014that it is inappropriate to give a personal reflection which puts one of the parties in disrepute because we are using the Speakers\u2019 rulings in a way that he doesn\u2019t think is appropriate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc8bedce16dd4ed6a149b1718d1d81f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc8bedce16dd4ed6a149b1718d1d81f0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry; it\u2019s an interesting point, but it\u2019s a debating matter. This is the end of this. I\u2019ll now call on the Hon Chris Bishop.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022338849a1fb5049129c80ebf70df38e02\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022338849a1fb5049129c80ebf70df38e02\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That urgency be accorded the continued second reading of the Legal Services Amendment Bill; the introduction and passing through all stages of the Pae Ora (Disestablishment of M\u0101ori Health Authority) Amendment Bill; and the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Amendment Bill; and the passing through all stages of the Land Transport Management (Repeal of Regional Fuel Tax) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s been a bit of debate about urgency in the House, and can I just say to the House the reason why the Government is seeking this urgency motion is to progress the necessary stages of our 100-day plan. The coalition parties collectively campaigned on repealing the M\u0101ori Health Authority not because we have an objection to improving M\u0101ori health outcomes\u2014in fact, quite the converse\u2014but we campaigned on it because we don\u2019t think a giant new bureaucracy is the right way to go about doing that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EWe also campaigned on repealing the Auckland regional fuel tax. The National Party\u2014and I think I\u2019m right in saying that the ACT Party said the same thing\u2014at two successive election campaigns sought a mandate from the New Zealand people to repeal the Auckland regional fuel tax, going all the way back to early 2018 when it was introduced. And news flash for the Opposition: at the election in October last year, that mandate was delivered by the New Zealand people, and we have pulled together our 100-day plan and we are now proceeding to implement it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EMembers opposite cry crocodile tears about urgency, because I\u2019ve sat where they sit for six years and I realise it\u2019s grim times, and I know exactly what they are going through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022739f0cade7654a4ab30e3877f300916d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022739f0cade7654a4ab30e3877f300916d\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, point of order. I refer you to Speakers\u2019 rulings 14/3, 14/4, and 14/5 around the need for reasons for moving urgency, and I won\u2019t invite you, Mr Speaker, to reflect on whether or not Mr Bishop\u2019s moving of this motion is in the spirit of those Speakers\u2019 rulings, given that such a motion is not debatable. He is introducing debatable material into this, he is failing to actually fulfil his job to give specific reasons for the bills; rather, he\u2019s attacking the former Government, the Opposition, for actions that he believes have been undertaken. That is not within the spirit of moving an urgency motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00229b6f599f3f524feba28a497039b81b2e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b6f599f3f524feba28a497039b81b2e\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6379d223515478d96be288ed12f07cf\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have been listening to the contribution or the reasons being given by the Hon Chris Bishop, who now may want to participate in the\u2014point of order is it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022353353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286a58b5879f44a4a810b51347a99446e\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll speak to the point of order and say I think that\u2019s fair enough. I\u2019ll bring it back a bit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022869c5e869a1440ada45890380532ca82\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, well, thank you very much for your generosity in that regard. I was going to direct you that way. Carry on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289094890c83548f1a9e2fd123a706979\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: The very simple reason for urgency is that the coalition parties sought, at the election, a mandate to implement these policies. Two of them\u2014in fact, all three bills in this urgency motion\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226997763f0576450798ed577263febc99\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I mean, it is interesting hearing his justification for the over-use of urgency, but, given that it is not a debatable motion, if he is going to make those points, we do feel that we ought to have the ability to respond to those points, because they\u2019re not valid.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288e42e408dfe45e0ba4a047b1dc810de\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the problem is that Standing Orders don\u2019t provide for that. I recall at the time that the Standing Orders Committee made the determination that there should be reasons given with no debate. I opposed that at the time. I wasn\u2019t listened to. I\u2019m now obliged to follow what Standing Orders require of us. I would ask Mr Bishop to conclude his commentary as quickly as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022353353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022241822d9893f4d8d8dbcc0c97a0b7856\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: The next point I was going to make is that all three of these bills are repeal bills\u2014in other words, they wipe from the statute book bills that the Parliament passed. Many of them have been through select committees previously. The Government considers urgency is more than justified in this case, and we therefore move the motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u0022322f6ac998b34349a1d3ca16fd3486b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022322f6ac998b34349a1d3ca16fd3486b7\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Green\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave of the House for a debate laid down immediately on the Government\u2019s use of urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fe7e13ba7ba4d70ba5958d5ecdec509\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we\u2019re actually in the middle of considering a motion, so you might want to think about putting that at a future point. Procedurally, we now need to go to the vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224d3811cd5faa4479b5639ede13b90b92\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That urgency be accorded the continued second reading of the Legal Services Amendment Bill; the introduction and passing through all stages of the Pae Ora (Disestablishment of M\u0101ori Health Authority) Amendment Bill; and the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Amendment Bill; and the passing through all stages of the Land Transport Management (Repeal of Regional Fuel Tax) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa0feea5bca64b99b82f58d1fffaecad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa0feea5bca64b99b82f58d1fffaecad\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. I seek leave of the House for a debatable motion on the Government\u2019s use of urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00226dc8f55792a445ca8acde945f3b7511f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226dc8f55792a445ca8acde945f3b7511f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection to that? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u002248a97927336a4fc1bc4b97437c3da399\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248a97927336a4fc1bc4b97437c3da399\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. Mr Speaker, I request a personal vote on that motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022f55fceb0edb947e3a5c63e5808ebe35a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f55fceb0edb947e3a5c63e5808ebe35a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You can, but I\u2019m not granting it, because the numbers are overwhelming. There\u2019s no question about how the outcome can be interpreted. That\u2019s the basis for a member requesting a personal vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u002241d6aa67c5d247c7ace852ec86555368\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002241d6aa67c5d247c7ace852ec86555368\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226a83f787079440899ddde93d2cdd8ad\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Beg your pardon?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b931f4c8bdcf48aeb4ad74a54b6888f4\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW\u003C/span\u003E: They were very even.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d334b1f9c694132965781363ffd64a7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I read them. I read the results. It also would require that there was some belief that votes cast weren\u2019t legitimately cast.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222328f63058fa4e068cd0dcdaf47df88d\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW\u003C/span\u003E: I find it difficult to predetermine how you can rule on a use of a personal vote given that, until it happens, you don\u2019t actually know whether it\u2019s overwhelming or not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022b5c4d827bc504834913c70e8d50409a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b5c4d827bc504834913c70e8d50409a8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you do, because the Clerk hands you a bit of paper that says 68 to 54. That\u2019s the basis of it. That is a large, substantial majority of the House making a decision. If there was a question about whether or not someone had appropriately or inappropriately cast their vote or whether, outside of a party\u2019s leave allocation, there was a misquoting of a vote, those would be reasons, but simply calling for one is not enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022 data-id=\u00223c7096af80bb41568250bfd43b1f4450\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c7096af80bb41568250bfd43b1f4450\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. I seek leave from the House to move that the Pae Ora (Disestablishment of M\u0101ori Health Authority) Amendment Bill is out of order while it is currently subject to an inquiry by the Waitangi Tribunal as to the Standing Order 116.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002259afaf745d264148b47ceb6186ec9763\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002259afaf745d264148b47ceb6186ec9763\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection to that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d302e9661b9b4594922923518cf2ba45\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3c55a356d734d089a8f62b62f7aa300\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022 data-id=\u002274d922b307124218bcef76abacc40514\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274d922b307124218bcef76abacc40514\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. I move that the orders of the day for the first reading of the Pae Ora (Disestablishment of M\u0101ori Health Authority) Amendment Bill be postponed until after the urgent claim before the Waitangi Tribunal regarding this bill can be heard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00227faed87f9828424a892563f479ba3efa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227faed87f9828424a892563f479ba3efa\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s a small problem here. So there is a sequencing that goes on in any of these moves by the House, and you can\u2019t have a successive number of leave applications that vary from a decision that the House has made in the current session. The House has made its decision that it\u2019s in order, and, therefore, any other moves to defeat its progress under the urgency bill are, unfortunately, not permitted under Standing Orders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221b4775367e644dc902de8af45750d25\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Unfortunately?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c16f9b716f74ad68fed7fcd0f4dcd54\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, unfortunate for the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022fcd281a128534ebba3f0e0098b402f31\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fcd281a128534ebba3f0e0098b402f31\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s very clear that there are many members of this House that feel very strongly about the bills that were contained within the Government\u2019s urgency motion. It is possible that members from all parties were moved by those contributions. In order to clarify whether that is the case, I seek leave of the House to hold a personal vote on that motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00225efcd95ab1014ff898f312ef2693573a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225efcd95ab1014ff898f312ef2693573a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not sufficient reason. Your belief doesn\u2019t trump the fact that people have cast their vote, effectively, by holding their proxy with the whips.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcebc0bf27f84ce081fb133bc3bdb1a8\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: I am seeking leave, however.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229653101ccebc405f8ec266e71e374caf\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, are you seeking leave? All right. Leave is sought for a personal vote on\u2014do you want to say what it is again so we get it all correct in the Hansard? I seek leave\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00224f824e39fa104b609331587957e5d8f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f824e39fa104b609331587957e5d8f9\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, I seek leave of the House to hold a personal vote on the Government\u2019s urgency motion just voted on as a party vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022288119d1056b4b32bbe0f7ea6a17982f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022 data-id=\u0022643bbdb0e7cb4888be9e5735ebc71ce2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022643bbdb0e7cb4888be9e5735ebc71ce2\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. Mr Speaker, can you clarify for this House that Standing Order 116, \u201CMatter subject to judicial decision: (1) Matters awaiting or under [judicial] or suppressed by an order of [a] New Zealand court may not be referred to in any motion, debate, or question, including a supplementary question, subject always to the discretion of the Speaker and to the right of the House to legislate on [a] matter or to consider [delegated] legislation.\u201D Standing Order 3(b) of that \u201Ctakes into account the constitutional relationship of mutual respect that exists between the legislative and judicial branches of government, and the risk of prejudicing a matter awaiting or under [the court system or under judiciary] in any New Zealand court, including one awaiting sentencing.\u201D The tribunal meets on Thursday, and this goes against that particular standing order. Can you just give us some clarification around that, please, Mr Speaker?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022334dcee54788422cac1e430454232cc1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022334dcee54788422cac1e430454232cc1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the simple clarification is that the tribunal is not a judicial body, and, for that reason, the Standing Order does not apply in this case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002238b9a0f2cd72434fab97a7305babb38e\u0022\u003EIntroduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227b52036476a041ea9d51623372f4f4a8\u0022\u003EIntroduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022d59a90803efd43a6834f700ec708cf43\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d59a90803efd43a6834f700ec708cf43\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I understand that it is the Government\u2019s intention to introduce two bills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022c14ebdac21d1481d9669737032b193db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c14ebdac21d1481d9669737032b193db\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EPae Ora (Disestablishment of M\u0101ori Health Authority) Amendment Bill, introduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ESmokefree Environments and Regulated Products Amendment Bill, introduction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022b38fa3b26cbb48c2a181bfc61439ba17\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b38fa3b26cbb48c2a181bfc61439ba17\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those bills are set down for first reading presently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ELegal Services Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002270dc3c8911d54a45a5dd3fa25c56e247\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000371\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 20 February.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022 data-id=\u002219f120c7f9594fc28e0cbafbc8edd83c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002219f120c7f9594fc28e0cbafbc8edd83c\u0022\u003ECAMERON BREWER (National\u2014Upper Harbour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I stand in support of the second reading of the Legal Services Amendment Bill, defunding\u2014urgently defunding\u2014the section 27 reports. In fact I just got a text from the last bastion of front-bench common sense in the Labour Party\u2014Stuart Nash\u2014and he says, \u201C[The previous Government] was not responsive [enough], [not] fast enough to nail the crime issue. [In my view] the gangs need to be taken down. We need to give police\u2026every tool.\u201D That was a text from Stuart Nash; no sorry, that was an interview he had with TV ONE last night. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003EThese section 27 reports have cost taxpayers millions of dollars, and have done nothing for victims of crime; in fact they\u2019ve led to further sentencing discounts. So, in the immortal words of Karen Carpenter, when it comes to law and order, we\u2019ve only just begun. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022 data-id=\u00224a7e527b809e498a846d755856d89435\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a7e527b809e498a846d755856d89435\u0022\u003ELEMAUGA LYDIA SOSENE (Labour\u2014M\u0101ngere):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Labour opposes this bill, the Legal Services Amendment Bill, which affects section 27 reports. We oppose it for a number of reasons, and I want to bring those to the House to help viewers at home understand the reason why Labour opposes this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EThis is a Government that is mean-spirited. It does not care about its lowest socio-economic citizens, and so people at home, who are not in the Chamber, will understand that this particular section, section 27 of the Sentencing Act, was to assist judges when they are considering sentencing. The cultural value reports are put forward because the offender may not necessarily be able to be in a position to have a background report. Especially, we understand that M\u0101ori and Pasifika offenders may not necessarily have the resources, whereas this funding is being repealed by this Government\u2014the mean-spirited Government\u2014to fund their tax cuts. They are picking on individuals and wh\u0101nau and aiga and families who need necessary funding. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EThe option to put it forward is still there. However, offenders that are in a situation where they do not have the financial means will not be able to have this section 27 report. It is not an excuse; it is to provide a report that provides further explanation for the sentencing judge to consider those circumstances. More importantly, the sentencing judge will have further intel or insight or extra information, providing good research, that could probably give a more purposeful report that could provide extra weight and have further information to be considered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EWe have heard that M\u0101ori and Pasifika offenders are overrepresented in the criminal justice system. Section 27 reports, as I\u2019ve said, will bring about social values with the why, with the what, and with the who, and they will also provide some extra psychological information that could or may assist with that offender\u2019s rehabilitation programme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003ESo section 27 reports help provide a better alignment, specifically for M\u0101ori and Pasifika and low socio-economic offenders who have found themselves in a situation where they need the section 27 cultural value reports. It is the chance for the average person who may not necessarily have the funds and don\u2019t have the ability to pay that for themselves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EI come from a community in South Auckland where there is an overrepresentation of some of our most vulnerable citizens who have found themselves in front of a sentencing judge and who actually want to change their offending behaviour. This Government is mean-spirited. It wants to find funding so that it can fund its tax cuts and not care about those who need a hand up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003ELabour opposes this bill. It does not want to have a mean-spirited Government who does not care about some of the offenders, so Labour opposes this bill. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022 data-id=\u002244ec9d81177946e5b31a22d54bc349ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002244ec9d81177946e5b31a22d54bc349ff\u0022\u003ERIMA NAKHLE (National\u2014Takanini):\u003C/span\u003E When we consider the fact that taxpayer-funded section 27 reports\u2014the amount spent on them\u2014has increased by at least 190-fold, when we think about $40,000 in 2017 to $7.7 million in the last financial year, I\u2019m pretty sure that most Kiwis would agree that this money is better spent on victim services. I support its progression.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00222684072ac9714482bfbe5d32b131bc9e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222684072ac9714482bfbe5d32b131bc9e\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E This is a vile little bill that the Government once again is sneaking in through urgency. Here we are at the second reading, and what does the public have to say? Well, nothing, because they haven\u2019t been given an opportunity. Why? Because this Government doesn\u2019t want to hear what the public has to say. The Government doesn\u2019t want to hear the concerns of the community. It\u2019s obsessed with its 100-day plan, and it\u2019s doing violence to the parliamentary process and riding roughshod over democracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EYou know what this Government\u2019s really afraid of? Evidence. There is no lawyer, no academic, no criminologist, no psychiatrist, no judge\u2014there is no expert at all who thinks that defunding these reports is a good idea. Even the Minister\u2019s own officials think it\u2019s a bad idea. We know what the Law Society has to say about cutting funding for these reports for the poorest New Zealanders: \u201CWith funding for these reports removed,\u201D\u2014it said\u2014\u201Cthe only way a person facing sentencing will be able to access them is by paying privately. Those who can afford this would then have a greater level of representation in Court than those receiving Legal Aid. [This] is a significant breach of fundamental rights\u201D\u2014that\u2019s what the Law Society\u2019s got to say. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EAnd what does the Bar Association have to say? \u201Cthere are significant risks that it will make it harder for judges to impose appropriate sentences, undermine rehabilitation and adversely impact reoffending rates.\u201D\u2014that\u2019s the Bar Association of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EAnd Joe Williams of the Supreme Court, what does he have to say about these reports? \u201CUnderstanding background and context is not only a key to addressing asymmetry in incarceration but the key to achieving justice,\u201D\u2014the key to achieving justice has just been thrown away by this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI asked the Minister of Justice by parliamentary question: what are you basing your actions on? What\u2019s the evidence you\u2019ve got? His reply, in short: none, nothing, nada. He is basing it on his reckons; what his 100-day plan is; and what he hears, I imagine, down at the Epsom Bowling Club. The Minister of Justice is basing his policies on dogma and dog whistling. The truly horrific thing is that by appealing to the basest basic instincts, by generating fear and loathing, by driving policy by hate over evidence, fear over facts, he\u2019s creating real and lasting harm.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EOf course, the Minister has received some good advice, and that can be found in the very Cabinet paper that he presented. It noted that the savings of the costs of these reports will be wildly offset by the costs of court delays and the costs of psychiatrist reports, and that\u2019s not even mentioning the increased incarceration rates. And we know that this will have a disproportionate impact on M\u0101ori, especially rangatahi and tamariki. And if you don\u2019t care about that, you shouldn\u2019t be in this House. We know that children who have parents in jail are much more likely to end up in jail themselves. This is a step towards future incarceration. How the Attorney-General concluded that this was not in breach of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, by being both discriminatory and not providing adequate legal representation, I do not know. The derisory two pages she wrote don\u2019t address any of the real issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIn the regulatory impact statement, it provided five options. And what did it say about this one? It said it was the worst\u2014the least likely to achieve the objectives. It was more expensive and less effective than many of the other options, including simply accrediting the report providers. So what we have is a Government that has no interest in actually achieving real policy objectives, no interest in engaging with evidence, and no interest in undertaking genuine policy work to get the best outcomes for New Zealanders. It\u2019s interested in dog whistling to its mates and pandering to the basest instincts of New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s be clear\u2014and the Minister knows this\u2014this will lead to more people in jail for longer; people who, if they had the money to pay for such a report, a judge would know all the facts and wouldn\u2019t have imprisoned them in the same way. That\u2019s bad for everyone. So here we have it: a Government not interested in evidence and is prepared to actually waste taxpayers\u2019 money and ignores advice. It\u2019s prepared to take the worst option available because of their election slogans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe lie spread about these reports is that they lead to light sentences. As if, in some way, they mislead a judge. This Minister shouldn\u2019t have his office. Only last week, he was in this House suggesting that home detention was some kind of not real consequence for crime. This Minister is embarking on a programme of undermining the ability of judges to make good decisions. Depriving the court of useful information by defunding these reports is just one of the spiteful things he\u2019s doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EHe\u2019s also going to reduce the discretion of judges in sentencing. And, of course, now the judges won\u2019t be able to look at these reports and understand what the victim\u2019s views are in terms of reparations, in terms of a restorative process, in terms of the offender cooperating with an investigation. But don\u2019t worry, Minister\u2014he\u2019s got nothing to worry about. His kids and my kids will be fine; they can afford these reports. All of the facts can be put in front of the judge for children of people who have salaries like we do, but it\u2019s the kids of those people on low salaries, or the workers on the minimum wage who can\u2019t rustle up enough to get an effective report done to put before the judge. That is discriminatory; it\u2019s wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s talk about reducing the number of victims of crime. Is that the policy objective of this legislation? If so, it will do the opposite. I want to give judges the tools and information they need to impose the right sentence on the offender\u2014a sentence that reduces the likelihood of crime in the future, based on evidence and on expert advice, not a reckon and an election slogan. What does this Government really want? It wants to blind one eye and block one ear. It actually wants to shackle the judiciary. Does it want to enable the judges to stick with their oath to do right by all manner of people? I don\u2019t think so. They want judges to be able to listen to people who can afford to be listened to, and they don\u2019t care about those that can\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo the National Party policy is, basically, to fill up our jails\u2014to put people away. They don\u2019t care that home detention is useful; that supervision and alcohol and drug rehabilitation actually works; that mental health treatment can be effective; and that care in wh\u0101nau, by wh\u0101nau can be effective. Those are the things that come out of these reports, but the people who need these reports most now can\u2019t have them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EWe want to solve the problems that create offending, and this includes a rehabilitative approach as well as punishment where appropriate. They don\u2019t care that the voice of the victim in these reports is going to be shut out. Section 27 looks at information about processes that have been tried to resolve or are available to resolve issues relating to the events involving the victim or victims of the offence. That information is no longer going to be in front of the courts in most of these cases.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo the National Party dogma, it\u2019s not going to be without consequences. As our already pressured prisons fill\u2014prisons that are already not resourced to give basic services to prisoners\u2014they won\u2019t be able to meet their legal requirements. These offenders will be putting their first foot on the conveyer belt of disenfranchisement. If they weren\u2019t already gang-connected, they will be soon; if their connections to wh\u0101nau were tenuous, well, they will be broken; and if their sense of community was fragile, it will be gone. As a nasty, little aside, this Minister has been calling this a cottage industry. Again, using the politics of division to gaslight the people who diligently try to inform the judge of important context of offending: the family, social, and cultural background in which it occurred.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI wanted to know the basis of this allegation so, again, I asked the Minister who was paid by the legal services agency to prepare these reports? Who and how much? Who are these cottage industry people? What did he say? \u201CI don\u2019t know. I don\u2019t have any information on who\u2019s been getting these reports.\u201D Once again, he made it up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThis bill is just one of the wedges that the Government is driving in our society. One of the ways they are making our society less just; one of the ways in which they will create more victims and more offenders. This policy and the others aren\u2019t based on evidence or thoughtfulness\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00220232a8229aee4c7f8d73edca0a4c4475\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220232a8229aee4c7f8d73edca0a4c4475\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has come to an end.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd5970f97398490ba8de9865787bf613\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd5970f97398490ba8de9865787bf613\u0022\u003EPAULO GARCIA (National\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E The use of section 27 reports is to inform the judicial system\u2014the judges\u2014in the process of sentencing, the background and family information of the accused. So the process for going through the allegations and the charges and the defence of them has already passed. At this stage, section 27 reports have to do with sentencing\u2014there is no removal of the right of anyone for evidence to be presented in their favour throughout the whole process, what is being abolished is the funding for section 27 reports, because it was created to allow family and people who knew the accused to provide evidence in support of their background. Section 27 reports are not being abolished by this amendment. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227cdfe06ba66c414782f35c2386c0f809\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Legal Services Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000400\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022db8783a527ce4c9a9b1fb0e0b04a19e1\u0022\u003EPae Ora (Disestablishment of M\u0101ori Health Authority) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022185e7a3305a74a6b8f122ba1f3e63906\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u00224e411b6f718d4ba7bdffbf3483a94596\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e411b6f718d4ba7bdffbf3483a94596\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Pae Ora (Disestablishment of M\u0101ori Health Authority) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227772e4b12c6c4860b911c4f8811caa6a\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdbafb6ff4714c54bb2f2b4ec8b467c0\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Pae Ora (Disestablishment of M\u0101ori Health Authority) Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EThis is a narrow bill focused on the changes needed to disestablish the M\u0101ori Health Authority. Disestablishment was agreed to by all three governing parties in their coalition agreements and mandated by the results of the 2023 general election, where it was canvassed at length on the campaign trail. Substantively, this bill meets our 100-day commitment and delivers on our intent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge those who embarked on the M\u0101ori Health Authority dream and say to you that this bill is in no way a reflection of you or your good work. It is a reflection of an approach that failed to put health needs for all at its forefront, and a reflection of an implementation plan that faced significant challenges from the beginning. I acknowledge that some people have a different view, and I respect that. However, I want to reassure them that this Government will remain committed to improving M\u0101ori health outcomes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EWhile the particular version of the dream that the M\u0101ori Health Authority laid out is coming to an end today, I want to paint a different dream, one that will be outcomes-driven, providing greater devolved decision-making that will deliver care as close to the home and the hap\u016B as possible. There is organisational expertise in the M\u0101ori Health Authority, and I want to retain that. I say to M\u0101ori Health Authority staff to please join me, guide me, and help us together to row a different waka towards better health outcomes. This bill enables that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EStructurally, the intent of this bill is that the M\u0101ori Health Authority staff and functions will transfer mostly to Health New Zealand, with a few to the Ministry of Health. Retaining the expertise needed to drive better health outcomes for M\u0101ori is important. We will do this transfer with dignity and respect for fellow health professionals. However, this is not simply a rehoming of the M\u0101ori Health Authority within Health New Zealand and the Ministry of Health. There will be less funded positions transferred across from unfilled positions especially. These are being covered to date by expensive consultants. Across health, we are reprioritising funds from the bureaucracy and into the front line.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EI want to speak to iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards and the Hauora M\u0101ori Advisory Committee. iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards and the Hauora M\u0101ori Advisory Committee will remain in place. Their voices may evolve as both will have a continuing role in the future of M\u0101ori health, and they will be very important as we press into communities to deliver care, to monitor care, as close to the home and the hap\u016B as possible. Localities will be paused under this bill while their place in the reforms is reconsidered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EWe have inherited a health system facing a significant number of challenges following major reform. The system continues to perform poorly across many metrics. Access to healthcare varies unacceptably. There are increasingly long wait times for treatment and substantial workforce shortages. Much of this is as a result of poor leadership and decision-making by the previous Government. Decision making has mostly been centralised in Wellington, with family and wh\u0101nau not having as much input into services delivered as is desirable. This needs to change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EI want to paint a vision for M\u0101ori and all New Zealanders. My vision is that all New Zealanders will have timely access to quality healthcare. That is the mission statement. To achieve this, I will be setting clear health targets. These will bring attention, resources, and the accountability that\u2019s needed to deliver quality care in a timely manner. The Hauora M\u0101ori Advisory Committee will help drive our health targets and will be informed by the work already done in Pae T\u016B and the Whakamaua action plan. iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards will be encouraged to have more of a say in their local communities in a manner not permissioned in Pae Ora. This bill, then, is necessary not just to support an election mandate but to undo an ideology that was struggling to produce tangible results.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EMany will say that the M\u0101ori Health Authority was still in its infancy. I would refute that statement. After 18 months in transition, under the guidance of a transition unit, before enablement in July 2022, and then given a further 18 months after that, this infant needed to be up on its feet and walking; despite the best efforts of staff, it was not. It is not clear to me that the M\u0101ori Health Authority was ever actually supported properly by the previous Government, who, in my view, were distracted by wider structural reforms to other parts of the health system. I believe the transition unit and previous Government has much to answer for in this failed implementation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EOften in politics, there is near universal agreement on the destination, what needs to get better; it is often how we get there that varies. This bill signals the beginning of a different journey. We acknowledge inequities. We acknowledge long waiting lists. At a macro level, this bill commences a journey that is different in three key ways from the previous Government\u2019s approach: (1) we believe in decentralisation and not a centralised, \u201CWellington knows best\u201D approach to decision making and resourcing; (2) targets will be brought back and be at the forefront of our health policy, unlike the previous Government, which said targets would not be at the forefront of their health policies, it will be at the forefront of our health policies; (3) health workforce shortages are the biggest hurdle facing our health system, despite what the previous Government stated and put on record.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003ETo conclude, what we are putting on the table today is a start to enabling the delivery of care as close to the home and the hap\u016B as possible. I look forward to expanding further in other stages of this bill, but at this point I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002238b259cb37ff469cacffb3c991d7b325\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002238b259cb37ff469cacffb3c991d7b325\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u00221bb99df5cea34f0890fae3ab8752bc93\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221bb99df5cea34f0890fae3ab8752bc93\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I stand on behalf of the Labour Party to oppose the Pae Ora (Disestablishment of M\u0101ori Health Authority) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ECan I first acknowledge the many hard-working New Zealanders\u2014M\u0101ori and P\u0101keh\u0101\u2014who work in the health system at large, but in particular at Te Aka Whai Ora. Many make the assumption that it\u2019s just M\u0101ori workers who work at M\u0101ori health providers, and indeed Te Aka Whai Ora. That\u2019s simply not the case. There are many people right across this country who are passionate about M\u0101ori health outcomes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWhat we\u2019ve just heard from the Minister in describing this bill can only be described as the absolute opposite of that. The Minister, in his opening remarks, has said that this delivers on the intent of the three-headed taniwha otherwise known as the coalition Government. It sure does, if that intent is indeed a regressive M\u0101ori policy agenda\u2014and that\u2019s what\u2019s happening here today. I was fortunate to be the Minister responsible for the building of Te Aka Whai Ora, with strong support from our then Minister of Health, the Hon Andrew Little, and subsequent Ministers of Health, who continued to reshape a health system that needed to be reshaped.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI want to be very clear\u2014and there are members on that side of the House who are new to the House and I want to say to them\u2014that inequities in M\u0101ori health have been in M\u0101ori communities for decades. Now, I want to remind the members on that side of the House that they were cruelly exposed during COVID-19. In fact, one of my jobs as a Minister\u2014I was one of the COVID Ministers\u2014was to travel to each and every one of the districts of the members in this House to literally wring the district health board by the neck and say, \u201CYou must provide better outcomes for M\u0101ori, because right now you\u2019re failing\u2014right now you are failing.\u201D That is why the work to reshape the health sector was particularly undertaken, because COVID sorely\u2014sorely\u2014exposed the holes in the health sector to show that there are further inequities that are suffered by M\u0101ori, in particular in times of crisis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori right up and down this country stood up to deliver during COVID-19 and, in fact, Te Wh\u0101nau o Waipareira in West Auckland delivered over 70,000 vaccinations in T\u0101maki-makau-rau alone. And guess what! Only 14 percent of those were to M\u0101ori. The rest of them were to everybody. This is the lesson I want that side of the House to remember: I want that side of the House to remember Te Aka Whai Ora was here not just for M\u0101ori but for the betterment of this entire nation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWhat we are going to delve into as this bill progresses is clear evidence from many members on this side of the House who witnessed firsthand the decentralisation approach that was taken when we built Te Aka Whai Ora. I challenge the Minister and members on that side of the House who talk about a Wellington bureaucracy: tell me where their office is. Did any of them come to the opening of Te Aka Whai Ora? I can tell you I did. It was opened in T\u0101maki-makau-rau, Auckland, where the largest M\u0101ori population is in this country. It wasn\u2019t run out of Wellington; in fact, it was put back into the hands of our people. We established the iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards in order to make sure that we can fund and commission those outcomes directly in community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ENow, the Minister has spoken about keeping part of that function. We will be challenging the Minister as we interrogate this bill\u2014about what that looks like. What does that actually mean for the iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards? How do those iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards continue to be supported by Health New Zealand as they look to make sure health outcomes for M\u0101ori improve right across this country? I am passionate about M\u0101ori health. My uncle Rob Cooper and my father, Erima Henare, were instrumental in the early M\u0101ori health days, looking towards how we fund the inequities properly in order to turn around M\u0101ori health outcomes for this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EIn my final 45 seconds, as we interrogate this bill, I want to say to all the wh\u0101nau out there and to all of the kaimahi who have worked hard for M\u0101ori outcomes: tai timu, tai pari. The tide has turned for now, but I say to them: we will tie our waka up on to the shore because, inevitably, the tide will turn again and our waka will be set out to sea to go towards the aspirations that our people have dreamt of for years. I encourage that side of the House to read Sir Mason Durie, Order of New Zealand, one of the greatest living New Zealanders currently, in his approach to M\u0101ori health, and then come back and argue the merits of Te Aka Whai Ora. We oppose this bill vehemently. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad8d10160f3b439a8c34feae7768ab86\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad8d10160f3b439a8c34feae7768ab86\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I stand in this House, wearing the k\u0101kahu taratara of te R\u014Dp\u016B K\u0101k\u0101riki as we mourn the loss of our dear friend and colleague Fa\u2019an\u0101n\u0101 Efeso Collins. I pay tribute to him today, and to my matua Mikaere Povey, tamaiti of Dame Naida Glavish, who also fell on that same day. They were far too young and taken too soon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EN\u014D reira moe mai r\u0101. Hoki mai an\u014D ki a t\u0101tou ng\u0101 waihotanga iho a r\u0101tou m\u0101, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, kia ora t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E[So rest in peace. I return now to us who have been left behind by them, greetings, greetings and thanks to us all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EI stand on behalf of te R\u014Dp\u016B K\u0101k\u0101riki to speak on the Pae Ora (Disestablishment of M\u0101ori Health Authority) Amendment Bill. Today is day one of the recolonisation of hauora M\u0101ori in Aotearoa New Zealand. Why? Because this Government is scrapping Te Aka Whai Ora, the M\u0101ori Health Authority. As Janice Kuka, the lead claimant in the current Waitangi Tribunal urgency in the disestablishment for Te Aka Whai Ora, shared, this is the closest model of tino rangatiratanga in hauora M\u0101ori in history.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EToday, we stand outraged that this Government would seek to scrap an organisation which was established through the important work of the 2019 Wai 2575 Health Service and Outcomes Kaupapa Inquiry and the full Health and Disability System Review that took place in 2019 and 2020, which included the DHBs, health providers, community, and stakeholders. This review reinforced the Waitangi Tribunal findings and set the scene for the major changes required. The review confirmed that Aotearoa has unacceptable M\u0101ori health inequities. We have institutional racism. The general health system has not improved M\u0101ori health outcomes, and approaches to design, purchasing, and contracting of health services have worsened these inequalities. We now have a Government who wants to send us back to the future, moving a focused independent hauora M\u0101ori voice back into the mainstream machine known as Te Whatu Ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EE te Minita Hauora, kei hea te tino rangatiratanga o t\u0113n\u0101? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E[To the Minister of Health, where is the sovereignty in that?] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard the Minister share in the media that the disestablishment of Te Aka Whai Ora will be done gently, with great care and great respect, and that the Government wants to propose an alternative that is more effective and that will deliver outcomes that M\u0101ori need. Where are the gentle hands of this Government? What engagement has this Government undertaken with te Iwi M\u0101ori and hauora M\u0101ori on the proposal to scrap Te Aka Whai Ora? Did M\u0101ori tell you that we need this? The Government is proposing that this legislation will come through the House under urgency\u2014and we\u2019re here right now\u2014but where is the justice and due process for our people to have input? Where are the gentle hands in allowing the urgent claim before the Waitangi Tribunal, scheduled for this Thursday and Friday, to be heard\u2014now undermined by this Government? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EN\u0101 wai i teka, this Government supports te tino rangatiratanga o te iwi M\u0101ori ki roto i ng\u0101 take hauora? E k\u012B, e k\u012B. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E[Who lied that this Government supports the sovereignty of the M\u0101ori people in health issues? Well, really.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EThere is no respect of this Government who actively silences the thousands of voices that contributed the establishment of Te Aka Whai Ora, further oppressing te Iwi M\u0101ori when it comes to our hauora solutions. We have heard from the Minister of Health that Te Aka Whai Ora is a bureaucracy managed out of Wellington. I argue that Te Aka Whai Ora is a really small workforce\u2014not even 300 kaimahi. And it\u2019s not centrally driven as a bureaucracy but rather a group of committed health professionals connected to k\u0101inga, based largely in the regions and in hospitals, who are focused on improving M\u0101ori health outcomes. The Pae Ora legislation provides the road map that was heralded as a game-changer in fixing a public health system that for far too long had failed M\u0101ori and many others in our community\u2014we had been left out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EThere is a strong feeling in our k\u0101inga and within iwi that we\u2019ve been ripped off by this Government. Disestablishing Te Aka Whai Ora now\u2014we\u2019ve never got a chance to see the waka grow and reach its full potential. Te Iwi M\u0101ori are being ripped off. This Government undermines the Waitangi Tribunal. Knowing full well that the urgency is this week, I ask again: where is the justice?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EThe Prime Minister said at Waitangi, \u201CI want Te A\u014D M\u0101ori to thrive. When M\u0101ori [thrive], we all know [that] New Zealand [will do well as well].\u201D Well, te Iwi M\u0101ori, did we consent to scrapping Te Aka Whai Ora? No, we didn\u2019t. In fact, this is a gross breach of Te Tiriti o Waitangi. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022 data-id=\u0022507912468ee24976a7ce1b9d86977f2f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022507912468ee24976a7ce1b9d86977f2f\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of ACT to indicate we will be supporting this bill, the Pae Ora (Disestablishment of M\u0101ori Health Authority) Amendment Bill. ACT opposed the establishment of the M\u0101ori Health Authority. We also campaigned on that in last year\u2019s election and we also put that into our coalition agreement, which became part of the Government\u2019s 100-day plan. We think that having a Government department predicated entirely on race is wrong, and it really is a simplistic way of looking at how we should deal with healthcare in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003EDividing New Zealanders into two ethnic groups to receive public services does not help us deliver better public services, and, actually, it\u2019s a poor analysis of the causes of poor health outcomes. It creates division and, really, isn\u2019t the way we want to go forward. Also, the report that was done on the authority\u2019s lack of progress, I actually said that concerns are being raised about staff transfers not being focused on critical skills and expertise needed to actually deliver the health outcomes that were promised. The report also found that the authority was tracking behind the Government\u2019s commitments, and under-delivering, resulting in, actually, M\u0101ori being underserved, not better served.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003EWe want to continue to ensure that our health system delivers for all New Zealanders, based on need, and we are very committed, as the Minister outlined in his speech, to actually closing the gap for all New Zealanders, M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori. This bill also doesn\u2019t remove the ability for M\u0101ori to be consulted, and we actually want to see more M\u0101ori health providers actually providing care at the coalface. We want to get rid of this bureaucracy and actually get down to delivery. I commend this bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022 data-id=\u00226708b71e29b646ccbfb43cf23430aa37\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226708b71e29b646ccbfb43cf23430aa37\u0022\u003EJENNY MARCROFT (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you Mr. Speaker. I rise on behalf of New Zealand First in support of the Pae Ora (Disestablishment of M\u0101ori Health Authority) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to begin my contribution acknowledging the Minister, the Hon Dr Shane Reti, and pointing out a number of comments that he\u2019s made in his introductory remarks which resonate well with me\u2014that we do remain, from this side of the House, absolutely committed to improving M\u0101ori health outcomes; noting also that the staff and functions of Te Aka Whai Ora will be transferred to Health New Zealand; and reprioritising the funds from the bureaucracy to the front line, because it\u2019s at the front line, we know, that health gain will be improved. If you have a massive bureaucracy that is all about ideology, no health gain comes as a result. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003EOur public health system is accountable for its delivery; a public health system that is keenly focused on delivering positive health outcomes for all New Zealanders, and that\u2019s New Zealand First: we believe that equity of access for all based on need, based on clinical need, must be a core function in public health. M\u0101ori health equity is a core function of the public health sector. M\u0101ori health equity should be matrixed across the entire public health system, not ring-fenced, not put into a little box on the side, with bureaucratic capture. The delivery of M\u0101ori and, for that matter, Pacific health gain is a fundamental responsibility of our public health system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003ETe Aka Whai Ora is the commissioning arm of the public health system for M\u0101ori; however, Te Aka Whai Ora\u2019s ability to actually deliver was very limited. It was not the vehicle for change that many people had hoped for. I will also note very briefly that the iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards under this amendment bill will get the actual power they should have had in the first place. Currently, under the Pae Ora legislation, they do not have any commissioning powers but the future for them is to really come inside the health system and be that network provider down to the grassroots, where M\u0101ori health gain will be improved. I commend the bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022 data-id=\u0022498f169490284381a78ce76b595f36c9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022498f169490284381a78ce76b595f36c9\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori stands up and speaks in absolute opposition to what has been proposed here, not only in this bill but the way that it is coming to us. I cannot state enough that the wellbeing of your tangata w\u2019enua, the indigenous people of Aotearoa, deserves to have more time and deserves, as Te Tiriti, to be heard in the tribunal. In fact, the efforts of those that are out on the ground making this will happen day to day needed to be validated and felt by the Minister before us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EI want to congratulate this Government! I want to congratulate you too, our Minister! From day one, you have carried on the k\u014Drero that this is a two-tier system based on race\u2014based on race. Your party has continued on the k\u014Drero of this being a solution based on racial segregation. And New Zealand First, in fact, said it was about separatism. In fact, we had ACT also calling it an \u201Cact of apartheid\u201D. Well, excuse us\u2014excuse us for having to have a separate need to be able to have our wellbeing addressed, because we are dying earlier than everyone else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EAnd let\u2019s just go there\u2014let\u2019s just go there and talk about the facts\u2014because the reality is that we have learnt from this Government that M\u0101ori are expendable. And the politicking that is going on before the very nation of Aotearoa\u2014and the world\u2014is that you have determined that you know better what M\u0101ori want. And there\u2019s been a culmination of years and years of this solution. But let\u2019s just talk about it. Let\u2019s just reflect. M\u0101ori die seven years earlier than everyone else. That\u2019s not a myth; that\u2019s a fact. That\u2019s not an enjoyable position to be in. It\u2019s not something that we desire to have as separatists. M\u0101ori men die eight years earlier compared to other males. Our men die on average at 73 years old. That\u2019s probably six years after the SuperGold card. And then we, of course, have M\u0101ori: 53 percent of us die under 65 years old. Now, let\u2019s just remember non-M\u0101ori men are doing an average of 83 years. So we have comparatively a poor performance of life based on the fact that we have had to endure 180 years of a health system that has completely failed us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EI refuse to let you carry on the dialogue that our people are failing. The health system has completely failed my kaum\u0101tua, my own generation, and my mokopuna. We haven\u2019t failed. We never left our w\u2019enua. We have done nothing wrong. We\u2019ve had to endure the state of a system that was forced on us. So what we have now is a narrative. You have successfully conjured up a narrative that we were enjoying preferential treatment as tangata w\u2019enua, and, as a consequence, this frenzy of misinformation and racism\u2014the fact that M\u0101ori radicals want to take over\u2014you have completely created a narrative that has got the rest of Aotearoa and those who are not M\u0101ori, those who are not enduring this horrific health system that we\u2019re in, thinking that we deserve and we want something different based on race.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EI guess the other side of it, too, is that you can continue to tell us that you\u2019re listening to M\u0101ori, wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, iwi communities; yet the Iwi Chairs Forum has hit out and said there\u2019s been no communication of the alternative. So not only have we had to endure a whole revolting campaign of you being so desperate to get into power that you created a narrative that M\u0101ori wanted different treatments in Aotearoa but you have continued to also sit there and offer no alternative, no option. Just get rid of bureaucracy and don\u2019t worry about the fact of what\u2019s going on in Te Whatu Ora and the fact they had 18 months. Don\u2019t worry about the fact that Oranga Tamariki is killing our people and you\u2019ve got a system that\u2019s had reviews after reviews saying, \u201CGet rid of it.\u201D No, no, no. Let\u2019s pick a moment in time and focus on what you want to focus the rest of Aotearoa, and that is you have gone on and you have conjured up a narrative that M\u0101ori deserve to die earlier; we deserve to be unwell; we deserve to have a system that\u2019s designed by you all who have got no experience. We saw the most horrific racism during COVID. None of you have talked about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EBut, thankfully, we\u2019ve got a second reading and a third reading, where I\u2019ll continue to take our people on the enjoyment of what it is like to have a Government that puts urgency before the wellbeing of tangata w\u2019enua. I am ashamed to be in this House debating this bill. It is not a moment to be proud of, Minister, but we will carry that on in the second and the third reading. Kia ora r\u0101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8b5b362713b4b5b80fe7020cecfbd25\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8b5b362713b4b5b80fe7020cecfbd25\u0022\u003ESAM UFFINDELL (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise in support of the Pae Ora (Disestablishment of the M\u0101ori Health Authority) Amendment Bill at its first reading. We have said that we campaigned clearly that we were going to disestablish the M\u0101ori Health Authority. We were voted in by the people of New Zealand with a clear electoral mandate, and we are delivering on that mandate as part of our first 100 days in coalition agreements with coalition partners. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003EWe know that the solutions for M\u0101ori communities come from M\u0101ori communities, not from Wellington bureaucracies. This Government is committed to lifting outcomes for M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori alike, and it\u2019s not about the shape of the system; it\u2019s about making sure that it actually delivers for all New Zealanders. That is what this Government is committed to doing\u2014lifting the standards of healthcare for all New Zealanders\u2014and this bill is a step in that direction. I support it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u0022922fdd3990b64956a5b25e24622ea363\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022922fdd3990b64956a5b25e24622ea363\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker\u2014Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfc79c9ea69448b2a50904d4ed3c8727\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re allowed to look up when you make the call, Ms Verrall!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225adf95c80f6a48b69743d2e167c955d0\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: What a challenge for our country, the unacceptable inequities that M\u0101ori face in health\u2014the fact that M\u0101ori, as has been outlined by my colleague, die seven years earlier, in the 21st century, when we have been working on this issue for about a century, since the birth of our health system. There is no good reason for it. We must not accept it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EAs a health practitioner, I have seen many health practitioners be confronted by that. In fact, it\u2019s not uncommon, working in a hospital, to go and see your patients\u2019 data audited and to have your colleagues look over at you and point to the fact that the outcomes you are achieving are not good enough for M\u0101ori. That has been something I have seen my colleagues go through, and many of them have recognised that they, despite being totally committed to the health of each individual in front of them, have none the less worked in a way that has been unable to see those benefits translate into health gains for M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EFor my colleagues, for whom the idea that they are caring for each person to the best of their ability is the centre of their professional identity, this cuts them to the core. I have watched many of my colleagues go through that realisation and that process of understanding that things had to be done differently slowly, sometimes painfully, sometimes with a lot of confrontation between activists within our profession or our health services and the professionals concerned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EBut our country has come a long way, and when we consulted on the review of the health system in the first term of the Labour Government, there was strong support for the development of a M\u0101ori Health Authority in order to make sure that the multiple ways in which the system was failing M\u0101ori could be systematically addressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EWhat is so disappointing is that something which is the culmination of so much study and work and consultation in Aotearoa is now being removed by a Government who refuses to listen, under urgency, with no opportunity for select committee and no opportunity for the Waitangi Tribunal to be able to comment on this thing of critical importance to M\u0101ori. It is shameful, and, Dr Reti, my view is that your conduct in this is cowardly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EIt is a moral challenge for us to address health outcomes for M\u0101ori. We have heard repeatedly that Dr Reti has a dream for M\u0101ori, but I don\u2019t see any evidence of a plan. I don\u2019t see any evidence of anything that will actually change things. I see evidence of populism, actually, of sacrificing the needs of the minority in order to gain a majority and to take up power. I think it\u2019s a disgrace.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EI want to turn to the issue of how we could make substantial health gains for M\u0101ori and for non-M\u0101ori, and that is in community and primary care. That was the purpose of the localities which I see in this bill. Their roll-out is now deferred. That is the importance of the relationship between iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards and localities. Unless we get that right, we will not be able to generate the positive outcomes we want for the health of everyone. We will continue to have an uncoordinated, messy system of primary care where the bits don\u2019t join up and people can\u2019t access what they need. Such an important change. I cannot believe the Government is sleepwalking into this without a select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022 data-id=\u00229b43be6f32024907ad6a6e8068c1f4fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b43be6f32024907ad6a6e8068c1f4fc\u0022\u003EDr HAMISH CAMPBELL (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I stand to speak in support of the Pae Ora (Disestablishment of M\u0101ori Health Authority) Amendment Bill. We\u2019re committed to improving health outcomes for all New Zealanders, including M\u0101ori. We recognise that communities know best what works for them. We\u2019ll continue to work with all population groups to improve outcomes. We don\u2019t want a healthcare system that will deliver more bureaucracy than bandages, more paperwork than peripherally inserted central catheter lines, more heartbreak than heart health. So, therefore, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u002264cf40ca798a4df4a89138da628946ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002264cf40ca798a4df4a89138da628946ff\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kua tae mai te r\u0101. Ka nui taku riri ki t\u0113nei K\u0101wanatanga, engari he nui k\u0113 atu taku p\u014Duri.ki te t\u016B i t\u0113nei r\u0101 ki te k\u014Drero e p\u0101 ana ki t\u0113nei pire. Ko te kaupapa ko te whakakahore i Te Aka Whai Ora\u00A0\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EHe p\u014Duri n\u0101 te mea ko t\u0113tahi o aku whanaunga e \u0101rahi ana i t\u0113nei pire i roto i t\u0113nei Whare, e haukoti ana i te nohoanga o te Taraipiunara. Ko tana hap\u016B t\u0113tahi o ng\u0101 kaiker\u0113me, ko Te Kapotai t\u0113tahi o ng\u0101 kaiker\u0113me o te whakakorenga o Te Aka Whaiora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EKo taku whanaunga te tangata arero rua. I roto i t\u0113nei Whare, i whakautu ia i te p\u0101tai a Peeni Henare mehemea ka noho ia, ka k\u014Drero ia, ka whakarongo ia ki \u014Dna iwi M\u0101ori, ki ng\u0101 hap\u016B, ki ng\u0101 iwi, ki te Taraipiunara. Ko tana whakautu i t\u0113r\u0101 wiki, \u201C\u0101e. \u0100e, ka noho au, ka whakarongo au, ka \u0101ta whakaaro au i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero.\u201D Engari i t\u0113nei r\u0101 kua tau mai t\u0113nei pire ki roto i t\u0113nei Whare, hei te mutunga o t\u0113nei r\u0101, \u0101p\u014Dp\u014D pea, kua whakakorengia t\u0113nei. E k\u012B, e k\u012B!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u0100e, e tika ana te k\u014Drero, n\u0101 wai i teka? N\u0101 te Minita i teka i t\u0113r\u0101 wiki. Ka \u0101ta k\u014Drero ia, whakarongo ia; kahore. Kahore.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EE taku whanaunga, e m\u014Dhio ana ahau e poho kerer\u016B ana \u014D whanaunga.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E[The day has arrived. I am very angry at this Government, but my sadness is much greater to stand here today to speak about this bill. The subject is the disestablishment of the M\u0101ori Health Authority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI am saddened because it is one of my relations that is leading this bill through this House, and cutting off the sitting of the tribunal. His hap\u016B is one of the claimants; Te Kapotai is one of the claimants of the disestablishment of the M\u0101ori Health Authority.\u00A0\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EMy relation is a two-faced man. In this House, he answered the question of Peeni Henare whether he would sit with, discuss with, and listen to his M\u0101ori people, to the hap\u016B, to the iwi, to the tribunal. His answer last week was, \u201CYes. Yes, I will sit, I will listen, I will carefully consider the discussion.\u201D But today this bill has arrived in this House, at the end of the day, maybe tomorrow, this will be disestablished. How dare you!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EYes, that statement is true; whose lie was it? It was the Minister that lied last week. He will carefully discuss, he will listen; no way. No way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ETo my relation, I know your relations are very proud.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226ab2e0ebaff4049a622ad5e63a1dfdc\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Ms Prime, I realise that I\u2019m subject to the translation, but just be aware that you are running close to the line with some of these personal comments. But carry on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286df01692f5c4dadba6993d29da4d97d\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: Ehara koe i taku whanaunga, e te M\u0101ngai. E k\u014Drero ana ahau ki te Minita, ko ia taku whanaunga. N\u014D reira e h\u0101ngai ana ahau ki ng\u0101 k\u014Drero, e m\u014Dhio ana ahau ki t\u014D k\u014Drero.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E[You are not my relation, Speaker. I am speaking to the Minister. He is my relation. So I am in alignment with the statements. I know what you are speaking about.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fa94671e62942e8bb59841fa7633f38\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I repeat my comment, Ms Prime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a08e439c2b56456eb61bec54db1a11c3\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: E te Minita, e m\u014Dhio ana ahau, t\u014D iwi e poho kerer\u016B i t\u014D mahi hei t\u0101kuta, n\u0101 te mea kei roto i \u014D ringaringa, e te Minita, kei roto i \u014D ringaringa te pae ora o w\u014D t\u0101tou wh\u0101nau; tamariki, mokopuna. Engari kei konei i t\u0113nei r\u0101 me te mau mai i t\u0113nei pire i te whakak\u0101hore i Te Aka Whai Ora. \u014C r\u0101tou wawata m\u014D te pae ora, m\u014D w\u0101 t\u0101tou tamariki, mokopuna.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EE hoki ana \u014Dku mahara ki te w\u0101 o taku matua, a Kevin Prime, i t\u012Bmata i te Ng\u0101ti Hine Health Trust, i te taha i a Uncle Erima Henare, i a Rob Cooper m\u0101. T\u014D r\u0101tou hiahia kia whai i te oranga m\u014D w\u0101 t\u0101tou tamariki, mokopuna, wh\u0101nau M\u0101ori, e tautoko ana i t\u0113nei kaupapa o Te Aka Whai Ora kia whakatutuki i ng\u0101 wawata o r\u0101tou m\u0101. Ng\u0101 mea e ora tonu ana i t\u0113nei r\u0101, p\u0113r\u0101 i a Aunty Moe Milne, ko ia t\u0113tahi i t\u016B ana ki mua i te Taraipiunara me te whakah\u0113 i \u014D mahi, me tana tino p\u014Duri ko koe, he whanaunga, e mau mai ana i t\u0113nei ki roto i t\u0113nei Whare.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EKo taku k\u014Drero ki a koe, e taku whanaunga, e tino whakam\u0101 ana ahau i \u014D mahi. \u0100ta whakaarohia, kei roto i \u014D ringaringa te oranga m\u014D w\u0101 t\u0101tou whanaunga, tamariki, mokopuna.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E[To the Minister, I know that your iwi is very proud of your efforts as a doctor, because in your hands, Minister, in your hands is the healthy future of our families; children, grandchildren. But here you are today bringing this bill to disestablish the M\u0101ori Health Authority; their aspirations for a healthy future, for our children, grandchildren.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EMy memories return to the time of my uncle, Kevin Prime, who started the Ng\u0101ti Hine Health Trust, alongside Uncle Erima Henare, and Rob Cooper and others. Their desire was to pursue wellbeing for our children, grandchildren, and M\u0101ori families, and were in support of this initiative, Te Aka Whai Ora, to realise their aspirations. The ones who are still alive today, like Aunty Moe Milne, she is one of the ones that is standing before the tribunal and opposing your efforts, and her deep sadness that you, a relative, is bringing this into this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EWhat I say to you, my relation, is that I am very embarrassed by your endeavours. Consider carefully that in your hands is the wellbeing of our relations, children, and grandchildren.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e903202df00242e3bcaa0515ebcfbc9a\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Ms Prime, direct your comments to the Chair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227438d6917d364de496bb8e3b1f4a5de3\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: E te M\u0101ngai, e k\u014Drero ana ahau ki te Minita. Ko ia taku whanaunga. Ko t\u0101ku e inoi ana ki a ia, \u0101e. \u0100e.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E[Speaker, I am speaking to the Minister. He is my relation. What I am asking of him, yes, yes.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022316276a41ae64e5895956a20860a29ed\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Ms Prime, you direct your comments through the Chair, and you do not use the first person. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239b85be1c3ab4fb3b1550ceb13bf5386\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: E te M\u0101ngai, e k\u014Drero ana ahau ki taku whanaunga, me te p\u0101tai, me te inoi, me te tono, me te tohe, aha r\u0101nei ki a ia, me tana mahi whakah\u0113, whakamutu i t\u0113nei, Te Aka Whai Ora, me taku k\u014Drero ki a ia e tino p\u014Duri ana ahau i tana mahi, e tino riri ana ahau i tana mahi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E[Speaker, I am speaking to my relation, and asking and pleading and requesting and disputing and whatever else of him and his efforts to condemn and bring an end to this, the M\u0101ori Health Authority, and my statement to him that I am deeply saddened by his efforts, and I am very angry at his endeavours.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022 data-id=\u0022a63420b482f14eeaae6cedd57ca077e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a63420b482f14eeaae6cedd57ca077e2\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, e te P\u012Bka. Our whanaunga is never one person. We don\u2019t speak in M\u0101ori individually; we speak collectively. Our whanaunga is a hap\u016B and an iwi. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022d29d317b2fa14d27b88673434001fdc9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d29d317b2fa14d27b88673434001fdc9\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m not going to rule on that. I\u2019m ruling on the language that was being used that came through my translation that Ms Prime was using, and that was what I was ruling on. So\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af1f390d62024c298c906a10ded15c51\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: E te P\u012Bka, point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a399c76f5f242c6a40a76f4162a3c98\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Is this a new point of order, Ms Ngarewa-Packer? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efbef48b339f45948c42597451e7f11b\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s speaking to the previous point of order. If we are going to be\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bc98da8061a4ce088d194daf7a8dc7e\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m sorry, but I\u2019ve ruled on that already. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022 data-id=\u00228147596e95ca4e159984b50ad9cf3311\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228147596e95ca4e159984b50ad9cf3311\u0022\u003EDr CARLOS CHEUNG (National\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support this bill. This Government is committed to lift health outcomes for all New Zealanders, including M\u0101ori. Disestablishing the M\u0101ori Health Authority in no way means an end to this Government\u2019s focus on M\u0101ori health for those who need it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022\u003EIt presents an opportunity to identify more efficient ways to work together with M\u0101ori to deliver solutions; a saving which can go back into better health outcomes. This bill strikes the right balance between service delivery on needs, not race, while ensuring M\u0101ori continue to have their voice being heard. Therefore, I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d0d5f2613cea49d58d51316e7e0cdc78\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Pae Ora (Disestablishment of M\u0101ori Health Authority) Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000497\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002216c21c9a25d844c7b427a0449b1107f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002216c21c9a25d844c7b427a0449b1107f9\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for second reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002290a69933132a495b9542b2cbf908d868\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u0022196157131c17461f83cd2a3afa19a285\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022196157131c17461f83cd2a3afa19a285\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Pae Ora (Disestablishment of M\u0101ori Health Authority) Amendment Bill be now read a second time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EThank you, Mr Speaker. We have laid out a plan for M\u0101ori health in the context of an overarching strategy with priorities that include decentralisation, the importance of health workforce, and targets. We have heard how M\u0101ori health providers often service non-M\u0101ori, sometimes even more than they service M\u0101ori. I recognise and venerate this and, in fact, have already moved from just those nice words to putting it into action with the announcement in December of a $50 million immunisation programme that utilises the special actions that M\u0101ori health providers can provide, and what mainstream cannot, or will not; their ability to reach into remote and vulnerable communities as part of the expertise that they have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EIn that announcement, which at $50 million was not inconsequential, we funded M\u0101ori health providers to deliver to a universal audience. We backed them. These are tangible actions, not just words. Yes, I did say transition would be in my kind hands, in reply to a previous speech. What I would suggest is ask the staff: is there any time in this process when there has not been respect and consideration?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EIn my first reading, I asked M\u0101ori Health Authority staff to join me\u2014hardly demeaning but more encouraging and collaborative and hopeful. I have enjoyed engaging with M\u0101ori health providers and leaders as I\u2019ve sought to find a way forward for what might deliver better health outcomes, including meeting with Iwi-M\u0101ori Partnership Board chairs and a Zoom meeting on or around 6 December, as I recall, and others who have contributed wisdom to the position we find ourselves in today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003ETo conclude, briefly, I\u2019ve described the changes that this bill brings about: (1) M\u0101ori Health Authority staff to repatriate to Health New Zealand and the M\u0101ori Health Authority; (2) uplifting of the Hauora M\u0101ori Advisory Committee; (3) uplifting of iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards; (4) reconsideration of localities. The plan is clear and we believe this plan will deliver better health outcomes. Kia ora mai t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002217ff65fcfd7e4e2db169a68ebff62c88\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002217ff65fcfd7e4e2db169a68ebff62c88\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022c7254764920f44f19b1da5e6f4173ae7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c7254764920f44f19b1da5e6f4173ae7\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. We said, on this side of the House, that we will continue to interrogate the words in this bill and we will oppose this bill all the way through the stages of the House. Now, I want to touch on a number of those clauses within this bill that we will be looking towards interrogating as we come to the committee of the whole House. I also want to state here it plays into what\u2019s already been made clear\u2014well, actually, it\u2019s quite unclear from this Government\u2014and I want to draw the House\u2019s attention to clause 6 in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe reason I want to do that is what we\u2019ve heard from the ACT Party in this House is a Treaty principles bill, and that they want to have this discussion and then we hear from the Prime Minister that they won\u2019t be supporting that bill beyond a particular stage of the bill. But what we read in this particular bill that we are debating here this evening is subterfuge. We are reading in here that this Government is already tinkering with Te Tiriti o Waitangi and its principles, and it\u2019s laid out clearly in clause 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThis is a Government where the Prime Minister stands up in Waitangi and in front of everyone in this country and says to everybody, \u201CNo, no, we won\u2019t be supporting the Treaty principles bill; we are here to work with M\u0101ori and we will continue to support Te Tiriti o Waitangi.\u201D Clause 6 of this particular bill that we are debating here tonight is clear subterfuge and straight-out play by this particular Government to make sure that they can continue to tinker with Te Tiriti o Waitangi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWhen we were in power, we made it clear that Te Tiriti o Waitangi must continue to lead the M\u0101ori health aspiration. It\u2019s riddled all the way through the whakamaua, which the Minister has already referred to this evening. It\u2019s already in the GPS\u2014the Government policy statement\u2014and we wanted to make sure that it was throughout the entire system. What we are seeing from this bill and this Government is a clear play to change Te Tiriti o Waitangi without even going to the community to talk about it; without even allowing wh\u0101nau right up and down the country to have their say on this particular bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228529047ceab64e2ab4656ce65f2460ef\u0022\u003EAndy Foster\u003C/span\u003E: What are you talking about?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c1881886e3a4d34b9fa986396f9fd51\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Now, the members on that side of the House say we are talking about it right now. No, they\u2019re not; they\u2019re only taking one-minute calls. I encourage them to get up, let\u2019s debate these clauses in detail, Mr Foster\u2014in detail\u2014and make sure that we can have that robust conversation. I can tell that side of the House that all of us on this side of the House have spoken to the communities who these changes impact the most: M\u0101ori communities\u2014M\u0101ori communities\u2014even Pasifika communities. A known fact amongst our people: for those aged under 25, just over 50 percent of those people who are M\u0101ori are also Pacific. It impacts our communities right up and down this country, and this side of the House knows the sentiments and the feelings and, indeed, the wisdom towards this bill far better than the other side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWe heard it already, that \u201CWe received the mandate in the last election.\u201D Well\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227affaceb6ee14fb9aadca66c445bafeb\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Not from M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226dd764dddc41414287053cee0705585f\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014not from M\u0101ori, they didn\u2019t; not from Pacific, they didn\u2019t. That\u2019s clear as day to each and every one of us on this side of the House. That side of the House might choose to sit in ignorance and choose to sit there with blinkers on to the actual needs of M\u0101ori. I want to reiterate that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe Prime Minister has stood up publicly in this House, saying he will vote down a Treaty principles bill. Yet right here is a clear example of this Government tinkering and changing Te Tiriti o Waitangi to suit their aggressive M\u0101ori policy agenda.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022505187fb681748f1b1d0ac4ccb47ddcc\u0022\u003EDana Kirkpatrick\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re not changing Te Tiriti. How is it changing Te Tiriti?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229122c47ea8d24cb1b9bbbe9eb3d40567\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Read clause 6\u2014read clause 6. I encourage those members to get up and speak to it and explain why they are going to be changing this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThis lends itself further to the need for the Waitangi Tribunal to be able to prosecute this case and indeed offer recommendations for the consideration of any policy and anything to do with M\u0101ori health moving forward. It\u2019s clear from this Government that they choose not to listen to those experts. Some people think that the Waitangi Tribunal is simply there to make recommendations and even\u2014I\u2019ve heard calls from the other side of the House that they are biased. I can speak to much of the work of the Waitangi Tribunal and say this: not only are their recommendations well considered, they also act as a body to store knowledge, to store information, and to store statistics relevant to the points that we are making here today with this bill and the cases in front of the tribunal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWhat we\u2019re not seeing from this Government is a commitment to looking towards those recommendations of the tribunal, yet we heard just now from the Minister that he has met with wh\u0101nau and iwi right across the country. Well, I put to the House that that actually hasn\u2019t been the case; that when we established Te Aka Whai Ora\u2014very soon we\u2019ll be rolling out the list of all the people we met with from M\u0101ori health providers, communities, experts, not just M\u0101ori health experts but health experts from right across the world, in fact\u2014who all called for Te Aka Whai Ora to be built. Yet when we look towards the diary programme of the Minister and even his colleagues with respect to this matter, we can\u2019t find the kinds of connection that they claim to be making here in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re going to go further into the bill as we look towards some of the words that are changed and have been changed or will be proposed to be changed. We were quite clear when we established Te Aka Whai Ora that it had to be a \u201Cmust\u201D; that it had to be driven to make sure that they deliver for the people that they serve. What we\u2019ve read in this particular bill are some changes to \u201Cmay\u201D. Now, for most people, that might not sound like much, but \u201Cmust\u201D and \u201Cmay\u201D\u2014there are huge differences there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe Minister, in his speech for the second reading, also spoke about the iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards and supporting decentralisation. In this repeal bill, what it\u2019s proposing is that the iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards can only be constructed or approved by the Director-General of Health. Under the current bill as it stands right now before this repeal, actually there was a process there to go through Te Aka Whai Ora\u2014the M\u0101ori Health Authority\u2014to continue to consult and to make sure that in order for it to be recognised, it had to go through that process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWhat this bill is proposing to do is cut out the voice of M\u0101ori and the recognition of themselves to be able to say, \u201CI am an iwi and I want to be an Iwi-M\u0101ori Partnership Board to continue to serve my people.\u201D\u2014and this is the right process to be able to do that. What this bill does, however, is actually just say, \u201CNo, no, we\u2019re going to put it in the hands of only the Director-General of Health.\u201D Now, while I respect the Director-General of Health\u2014the current one and indeed the one that we worked with in order to establish Te Aka Whai Ora, Sir Ashley Bloomfield, who was hugely supportive of the work that we did for the health reform and of course for Te Aka Whai Ora\u2014what we\u2019re seeing here is a continual silencing of the M\u0101ori voice as we look towards things like the Iwi-M\u0101ori Partnership Board that the Minister and that side of the House pretend to commit themselves to and pretend to support. It\u2019s just not true, and it\u2019s playing out not only in their words, because it\u2019s contradictory to what\u2019s being proposed here in the bill. We will also go on to interrogate the Minister, in his speech, talking about the simple repatriation of M\u0101ori staff or staff into the health system again\u2014or into Health New Zealand or Te Manat\u016B Hauora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWhat the Minister just described there is the status quo. It\u2019s simply the status quo. It\u2019s going exactly back to where it was. What happened when it was like that? The health statistics for M\u0101ori continued to be poor. The outcomes for M\u0101ori continue to be poor. The Minister in the House here has just told everyone it will go back to the status quo. I can tell the Minister who claims to have met with the wh\u0101nau to say that he will care for them and look after them, I can say that actually many of them left the status quo because it wasn\u2019t working. They were going to something new and to try something new that will continue to provide for the aspirations of M\u0101ori health.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ENow, sadly, from the other side of the House, all we\u2019ve heard is the status quo. The status quo on steroids can only tell me one thing: that it\u2019s going to go backwards even faster\u2014the status quo on steroids tells me it is going to go backwards even faster.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe other side of the House talk about targets. We will continue to hold this Government to account. The Minister himself spoke about a $50 million fund to lift the rates of immunisation across the country. When I asked him about that matter not a couple of weeks ago, he spoke about a data system. That\u2019s all he spoke about, a data system. He didn\u2019t tell us how and how much we are going to lift the immunisation rates of our tamariki\u2014in the House, on record, when asked about it, he talked about funding a data system. Tell me how that lifts, in a practical way, the immunisation rates of M\u0101ori. We continue to oppose this bill and we will continue to interrogate clause by clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022 data-id=\u00220ed4d9a27c1643f786236698dc25c65a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ed4d9a27c1643f786236698dc25c65a\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. I\u2019d like to take the opportunity as an uri of Te Tai Tokerau to invite the Minister of Health and his colleagues to stand on M\u014Dkau Marae in Whangaruru and address the people of Ng\u0101ti Wai, to come to \u014Ct\u012Bria Marae in Moerewa and address the people of Ng\u0101ti Hine and talk to us about this reform\u2014talk to us around why Te Aka Whai Ora isn\u2019t good for our people. As we mobilised hundreds of people to attend locality meetings, hundreds came to Moerewa to talk about their local health priorities; whether it\u2019s Matawaia, Waikare, te R\u0101whiti, vanloads of wh\u0101nau arrived to talk about their health goals and aspirations, because that\u2019s what localities provided. It\u2019s an opportunity for our local voice, wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, marae, community, local government, and the sector to come together and about what is best for their communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s be clear that successive Governments have breached Te Tiriti obligations through the generations by failing to protect the health and wellbeing of te Iwi M\u0101ori. In 2019, the Waitangi Tribunal report for Wai 2575 confirmed the view and states that our primary healthcare legislation and policy breaches Te Tiriti and fails to care for M\u0101ori health and wellbeing. The system has failed to look after M\u0101ori, and we know this because M\u0101ori die at twice the rate of non-M\u0101ori from cardiovascular disease. M\u0101ori tamariki have a mortality rate of 1.5 times more than non-M\u0101ori children. M\u0101ori are more likely to be diagnosed and die from cancer. Nau mai ki Te Tai Tokerau. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E[Welcome to Northland.] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori die, on average, seven years earlier than non-M\u0101ori in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EThe Waitangi Tribunal report into hauora found that the legislative framework of the New Zealand primary healthcare system should recognise and provide for the Treaty of Waitangi and its principles. The report recommended the following principles for primary healthcare: te tino rangatiratanga, the guarantee of tino rangatiratanga, which provides for M\u0101ori self-determination and mana motuhake in the design and delivery and monitoring of the health and disability services; equity, the principle of equity, which requires the Crown to commit to achieving equitable health outcomes for M\u0101ori; active protection, the principle of active protection which requires the Crown to act to the fullest extent practical to achieve equitable health outcomes for M\u0101ori; options\u2014I\u2019m big on options; I love a bit of options. And there\u2019s a principle of options from the Waitangi Tribunal which requires the Crown to provide for and properly resource M\u0101ori health and disability services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EBut, furthermore, the Crown is obliged to ensure that health and disability services are provided in a culturally appropriate way that recognises and supports the expression of hauora M\u0101ori models of care, aka m\u0101tauranga. Partnership: the principle of partnership, which requires the Crown and M\u0101ori to work in partnership in governance, design, delivery, and monitoring of health and disability services. M\u0101ori must be the co-designers with the Crown in the delivery of primary health systems for M\u0101ori. That\u2019s what Te Aka Whai Ora was doing; it was designing the health system alongside Te Whatu Ora as partners.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003ENow, let\u2019s look at Te Aka Whai Ora. They were there to ensure that the planning and delivery of services responded to the aspirations of wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, iwi, and M\u0101ori in general. They were there to design and deliver and arrange for services that were in accordance with the Act, Te Pae Ora, our pathway, our road map, and to achieve the best practical outcomes for wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, and iwi in general. And then to promote M\u0101ori health and prevent and reduce and delay the onset of ill health for M\u0101ori, including collaborative approaches with other agencies, organisations, individuals to address the determinants of M\u0101ori health. I hark back to localities. Bringing local government into the conversation. Hauora is everyone. We\u2019re all in this together\u2014localities provided for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003ESo I question: where is the good faith of this Government in working with us as te Iwi M\u0101ori to address the well-documented evidence of M\u0101ori health inequalities? Now, in the urgent hearing, which is before the Waitangi Tribunal, the Crown opening submissions shared on 23 February 2024: \u201CFor completeness, the Crown does not intend to raise the issue of whether engagement with M\u0101ori carried out by the current Minister of Health while in Opposition met a standard of consultation required under Te Tiriti and its principles. Accordingly, it does not intend to adduce evidence from the Ministry of Health.\u201D So I guess the question is: did the Minister engage with te Iwi M\u0101ori while on the campaign trail in 2023 on the proposed scrapping of Te Aka Whai Ora? Because we\u2019ve heard it\u2019s been promoted for quite some time. Did he engage with te Iwi M\u0101ori on his proposal? Now, as the Minister of Health, did he carry out any engagement with te Iwi M\u0101ori on the proposal since becoming the Minister, and, if he has, who\u2019s it been with and when was it and what response has he received?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s been reported that Te Aka Whai Ora will lift and shift into Te Whatu Ora; so indicating that somehow it\u2019s just simply pick up the team\u2014nearly 300 kaimahi\u2014and put them into the mothership of Te Whatu Ora. Now, I have to query the transition plan for our Te Aka Whai Ora team, because you\u2019re moving an ao M\u0101ori perspective into the mainstream ecosystem of Te Whatu Ora, and they may not have the capacity and competency to understand the Ao M\u0101ori world view that our team has. I question what work within Te Whatu Ora has been undertaken to uphold Te Tiriti o Waitangi and address the recommendations of the Waitangi Tribunal report 2575.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EIn Te Whatu Ora Health Status Report 2023, Te Whatu Ora will meet the requirements and expectations of the Pae Ora Act by enabling M\u0101ori to exercise authority over health, in accordance with M\u0101ori philosophies, values, and practices. Can the Minister confirm how Te Whatu Ora is going to enable M\u0101ori to exercise our authority over M\u0101ori health in accordance with our M\u0101ori philosophies and values and practices? He p\u0101tai miriona t\u0101ra t\u0113r\u0101. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E[That\u2019s a million-dollar question.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EI ask this because it\u2019s a fundamental question as to how this Government believes it knows best in terms of how to deliver health services for M\u0101ori. Te Whatu Ora is required to have capacity and capability to understand kaupapa M\u0101ori services, cultural safety, and responsiveness of services. Now, I query the board of Te Whatu Ora. There are currently two M\u0101ori members of Te Whatu Ora. And with the ending of Te Aka Whai Ora, the chair comes off that board, meaning that there\u2019s only one M\u0101ori board member. So with only one M\u0101ori board member, does the Minister believe that the governance of Te Whatu Ora have enough M\u0101ori capacity and capability? What is the plan to increase the clear capacity and capability gaps on the board of Te Whatu Ora?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003ENow, if we look at the scrapping of Te Aka Whai Ora and shushing out community voice and te Iwi M\u0101ori voice, I reflect back on the submissions received on the Pae Ora legislation from November 2021 to August 2023\u2014some 4,685 submissions. It\u2019s an amazing thing to see the voice of our community come through the process. Now, we\u2019re sitting in urgency, we\u2019ve blocked out community voice, our people have no say on what\u2019s happening right now. The creation of the 15 iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards is a step in the right direction, and we know this\u2014providing perspectives for wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, and iwi in the design and delivery of healthcare. Now, that\u2019s the mechanism for mana whenua to have a say. E te Minita, I ask and seek that we power up the iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards, that we enable commissioning of services. Let\u2019s go\u2014let\u2019s go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EBut I do worry about the Hauora M\u0101ori Advisory Committee, because, in the new legislation, it\u2019s not clear what their purpose is. Are they just an advisory board for the Minister of Health on hauora M\u0101ori as requested? How are the members to be appointed to this committee? Do iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards have a role in nominating and appointments, or is it just purely a ministerial appointment process? The Hauora M\u0101ori Advisory Committee is a strong group. They\u2019re health leaders. They\u2019re professionals. Surely they could input and support the whole system: Te Whatu Ora, Ministry of Health, and the wider health ecosystem. Can we not power them up also?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EI wish to note my observations around the Director-General of Health, because it appears that powers have been delegated back to that role in the new legislation to confirm iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards. That\u2019s interesting because, in my mind, surely the iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards should be approved\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00224989f30fba5d45a6b9fb6bbbd4983f25\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224989f30fba5d45a6b9fb6bbbd4983f25\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf4901b3620a4bbb8ead584fe74f7af9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf4901b3620a4bbb8ead584fe74f7af9\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. There have been many societies in history who have seen their citizens based on something as flat as race, and often they regret it as they lose sight of the beauty of each individual. Whether the other side wants to hear it or not, this Government isn\u2019t creating division; it is trying to restore trust in the society which the last Government trashed. There will continue to be support for M\u0101ori, by M\u0101ori health providers. This is about removing duplicate, expensive bureaucracy, whether in Wellington or Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EFor the benefit of Peeni Henare, I invite that member to finish his sentence on why he doesn\u2019t have faith in the director-general. Iwi-M\u0101ori partnerships will continue to work with Health New Zealand to develop priorities to improve hauora M\u0101ori. Staff and structures will move to the Ministry of Health and Health New Zealand, and ACT supports this bill. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022 data-id=\u00228ce1160c179c4c0ba889441b65423565\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ce1160c179c4c0ba889441b65423565\u0022\u003EJENNY MARCROFT (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise on the second reading of the Pae Ora (Disestablishment of M\u0101ori Health Authority) Amendment Bill. I\u2019d just like to begin my contribution by noting the passion in this House today. That is because we all care very deeply about the health of New Zealanders, whether it\u2019s our family, whether it\u2019s people in our community, it is people right across the country. That\u2019s why the contributions today are so passionate\u2014so acknowledging our passion and also, too, acknowledging that there is a different way of getting to the same health outcomes. We all want to see increased health gain for all New Zealanders, and it is on that that New Zealand First stands by the health Minister, the Hon Dr Shane Reti, alongside our coalition Government, to be committed to improving M\u0101ori health outcomes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re doing this in a different way: as the Minister noted, decentralisation is a key way we\u2019re focusing on this; absolute health targets where we ensure that the outcomes will be positive not just for M\u0101ori but Pasifika and all other communities as well, and also addressing the huge workforce pressures right across the health system. It is our public health system that will deliver for M\u0101ori, it will deliver for Pasifika, and it will deliver for our vulnerable communities. But we must ensure that our public health system ensures that they are powered up in the right way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003EWe believe that Te Aka Whai Ora\u2014and if we go back to the report that was written, the high-level assessment of Te Aka Whai Ora, the progress against Cabinet expectations, just a small note here: overall there had been insufficient internal capacity and capability to deliver. That\u2019s the problem: it was not delivering health gain for M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003EI just want to point to the Hon Peeni Henare\u2019s comments relating to perhaps pretending to commit to the iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards. Well, if I could draw his attention to Part 1, replacement section 15, inserted by clause 11, \u201CHealth New Zealand must support and engage with iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards\u201D. Under the previous legislation, the iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards were nothing more than a token gesture. They didn\u2019t have any commissioning powers to deliver health services for M\u0101ori. So, this way, under this Government, under this Minister, we will ensure that the health services will go down to the flax-roots. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2b7db9a40e24d20a19e2e22242bd0be\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2b7db9a40e24d20a19e2e22242bd0be\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E I stand to speak to this bill, the reo\u2014oh no, that was the other week. Beneficiaries\u2014no, that was last week. Smoke-free\u2014yet to come. The meth\u2014sorry; this bill that is to do with the dissolution of our M\u0101ori Health Authority. I guess my point is that with 16 pieces of legislation coming through urgency, it\u2019s really hard to keep track of which one you\u2019re actually doing, because in an 18-month run\u2014in an 18-month run; let\u2019s not forget and lose sight of this\u2014the Government keeps carrying on as if it has evidence. This is the fastest ever dissolution we\u2019ve ever seen of anything in our lives. We\u2019ve barely had our feet hit the ground, and, actually, we\u2019re insulted by watching politicians stand up and speak for one to two minutes about kaupapa that are dear; not passionate. They\u2019re about life and death for our communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EEighty-three percent of M\u0101ori didn\u2019t vote for this Government, which is why there is such a comfort in what is being rolled out. So what we have here, in this whole whakaaro, we\u2019ve had to not only endure listening to politicians that haven\u2019t got the time to put any effort into this whakaaro but we also have to hear ourselves called \u201CMarri\u201D the whole time through this. I\u2019ve got to tell you, there\u2019s nothing more aggravating than actually not having ourselves respected, not only for who we are but how we feel about what is before us. You have allowed limited avenues for our people to be able to stand up and give their\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221defb165fc5f4c89841f577ea9beffdf\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I assure you, I have not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e66e72555fda4bcd9c50907bb7c1c679\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014well, the Government\u2014to be able to give our people the right to stand up, and I guess what we want to do is also remind ourselves. So while M\u0101ori were out there, defending this nation and looking after everyone, we had a leader of this Government who was out making sure that he shared the M\u0101ori vaccination code. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EWe are being deliberately corralled into a pocket of desperation and destitution, and I want to remind and reflect on the words of Sir Mason Durie, who is a M\u0101ori health expert\u2014unlike anyone else that is in this House at the moment. Sir Mason Durie shared that the M\u0101ori Health Authority\u2014Te Aka Whai Ora\u2014was an \u201Cimportant step for M\u0101ori with implications far beyond the healthcare sector\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EThis is an expert with 40 years of experience, with not a political bone in his body, who is really only worried about the wellbeing of our people. Instead, here, what we\u2019ve got is an era of Government that won\u2019t be transformational because it is seriously comfortable in an old system, using dollars as justification for change. Pumping chests, patting yourselves on the back, because you\u2019ve given dollars\u2014given millions of dollars\u2014to something that actually is business as usual. That is what the Government\u2019s job is to do: it\u2019s to get the money out to the communities that need it the most. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003ESo let\u2019s reflect on this. So, in 1982, we had 55 doctors\u201455 M\u0101ori doctors. Now, we have 55 M\u0101ori doctors graduating a year, and, I guess, the hope that I have as I speak to our people is that if we were to put all our M\u0101ori health workers and authorities together, we would have a powerful vehicle for change. It is not going to come from this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EIwi-M\u0101ori partnerships: now, they were put in, and I was always really critical of the fact that they had to have twice as many hui with half as much resourcing. What we want to ask and want to see from this Government\u2014which we haven\u2019t seen\u2014is what was the M\u0101ori commission\u2019s outcomes for a blueprint for Aka Whai Ora? How is it being upheld? How are they going to ensure that things are going to transfer back to Te Whatu Ora? What is your alternative model? What are you and how are you resourcing? How are the locality plans working, given that you have no data to say how they\u2019re performing, no outcomes, and we haven\u2019t seen any data outcomes since the DHBs were wound up? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003ESo what my point is is that you cannot guarantee that we will not have more health inequities for M\u0101ori as we see this flip-flopping from a Government that wants to distance itself from the 100 days from the Government before it, and it really is worrying when we hear kupu about the commissioning agency and the approach, because Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori knows full well what\u2019s required to get that up and running. Have you got the fortitude, the resourcing, and the commitment to let your non-M\u0101ori voters\u2014again, remembering that 83 percent of M\u0101ori didn\u2019t support this Government, I doubt very much that you have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EBut I will take real caution and remind our people that we are, amongst ourselves, able to take on a Government that supposes that it knows more about us without us. This is not the first time we\u2019ve had to contend with this type of approach to our wellbeing. I urge that we all work together, stand strong, and stand united as we continue to take this Government on with its anti-M\u0101ori agenda. Kia ora r\u0101. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u00225a282ef2d9dc465eb25e8f49a4bae13d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a282ef2d9dc465eb25e8f49a4bae13d\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E To be frank, our heart is still aching for the loss of our brother Efeso, and it\u2019s hard to speak to this bill to do with M\u0101ori health\u2014many of the issues that are faced by M\u0101ori are also faced by Pasifika. We have a sense that his big heart gave out at age 49, and that is a, sadly, too common fact amongst our M\u0101ori and Pasifika people in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003ESo, fresh in this loss that we experience as a party and as a House and as a nation, it is galling that in two days\u2019 time, on the day that we will bury Efeso Collins, there is a Waitangi Tribunal being heard on this very question, and that this House and this Government is not willing to wait a mere two days. It is yet another insult upon insult upon injury upon injury to our Treaty partners, tangata whenua M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori are twice the rate of non-M\u0101ori in terms of cardiovascular disease\u2014twice the rate. The 2009 report and the Wai 2572 Health Services Outcomes Kaupapa Inquiry revealed that our primary healthcare legislation and policy breaches Te Tiriti and fails to care for M\u0101ori health and wellbeing. So we take action to correct that failure. We take action with Te Aka Whai Ora. The Waitangi Tribunal, in the hauora report, found that the legislative framework of the New Zealand primary healthcare system should recognise and provide for the Treaty of Waitangi and its principles. That is self-determination for M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u201CPeople with greater experience of negative health outcomes than most want more power in their decision making.\u201D That\u2019s from Taimi Allan and the Mental Health and Wellbeing Commission board. Tino rangatiratanga, which provides for M\u0101ori self-determination and mana motuhake in the design, delivery, and monitoring of health and disability services\u2014that is what was put in place by Te Aka Whai Ora. Two years\u2014and only one year really functionally operational. To give you some context, Madam Speaker, colonisation is bad for your health.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EA P\u0101keh\u0101 fellow showed up 254 years ago, an English fellow by the name of Joseph Banks. In 1770, he observed that, among M\u0101ori, he saw many very healthy old men, and, in general, the whole of them\u2014forgive the term\u2014are \u201Cas vigorous a race as can be imagined \u2026 indeed these people are blessed with [sound health] in a very high degree \u2026 I do not remember a single instance of a person distempered in any degree that came under my inspection.\u201D\u2014\u201CAmong them I have seen very [many] healthy old men \u2026 in general the whole of them are as vigorous a race as can be imagined.\u201D\u2014254 years ago. What is the state of M\u0101ori health now? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EWhat is the state of M\u0101ori health now? M\u0101ori die at twice the rate of non-M\u0101ori from cardiovascular disease. M\u0101ori tamariki have a mortality rate 1\u00BD times the rate of non-M\u0101ori children. M\u0101ori are more likely to be diagnosed and die from cancer, and, as many people have said, die on average seven years earlier than non-M\u0101ori. This specious and gross double-speak which suggests that putting special focus on those in need of that focus is somehow a race-based privilege, is revolting\u2014it is revolting double-speak. This is an effort to address the injustice and the harm caused by, frankly, 253 years of another health system. And one year of letting M\u0101ori take care of their own health\u2014you\u2019re going to kill it. One year. Not you, Madam Speaker; this Government. It is appalling, it is shameful, it is a breach of Te Tiriti o Waitangi, and it is anti-M\u0101ori, frankly\u2014as this Government expresses it wants to be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022 data-id=\u0022ced2d912d1824766a0eac6fc2daffb7b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ced2d912d1824766a0eac6fc2daffb7b\u0022\u003ESAM UFFINDELL (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Look, we understand that the health system is under significant challenge. The reality is, under the last six years, the health outcomes for New Zealanders have gone backwards. New Zealanders haven\u2019t been able to get the care they need. Our wait-lists and times have soared. I have constituents telling me that it\u2019s been so difficult to get meetings with specialists and with surgical staff. Immunisation rates have plunged, and this Government is committed to lifting the health outcomes for New Zealanders. And as part of doing that, we will disestablish the M\u0101ori Health Authority and merge the functions of the M\u0101ori Health Authority and transfer the rolls into the public health system. We believe, through doing that, that we will have the expertise there that we need to deliver improved health outcomes for all New Zealanders\u2014M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori alike. We support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u0022ff76ec83224947d1bba599644418bde5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ff76ec83224947d1bba599644418bde5\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Madam Speaker. Tuatahi he tika ki te mihi ki t\u014D t\u0101tou rangatira, a Efeso. N\u014D reira e te rangatira, e kore m\u0101tou e wareware i t\u014D kaha ki te k\u014Dkiri i ng\u0101 kaupapa i ng\u0101 w\u0101 katoa. N\u014D reira e te rangatira, moe mai, moe mai, moe mai r\u0101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E[Firstly, it is appropriate to acknowledge our noble friend Efeso. So, noble leader, we will never forget your strength in progressing initiatives at all times. And so, noble leader, rest in peace.] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EI sympathise\u2014empathise\u2014with are our friends in the Greens. I was listening to Steve Abel there, and I think we\u2019re all still a bit stunned with the death of Efeso. He was very close to a number of us, and if things had gone right, he would have been with the Labour Party, but he ended up with the Greens, and I spoke at the tangi yesterday for our team, and it was lovely to give the wh\u0101nau some aroha and some support. It\u2019s such a loss, and I\u2019m thinking of him at this time, because this is a kaupapa he supported 100 percent\u2014100 percent. He was that type of person; a great advocate for people right across the spectrum\u2014not just Greenies or Labour people; P\u0101keh\u0101, M\u0101ori, working-class people. But he was absolutely aware of how important this sort of kaupapa was, particularly within the system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EI look across at Dr Reti over there, who is someone who we have some respect for, because we\u2019re aware of his mahi in the North, as his whanaunga over here are also, and I\u2019m stunned by what\u2019s happened here. I\u2019m stunned because a man like Dr Shane Reti should respect\u2014and I know he has said a number of times he respects the work of a lot of our professionals, but when you have people of the ilk\u2014I was going through Dr Rawiri Jansen\u2019s submission to the tribunal. These are people who have given their lives to our people not just in the medical side; they advocate actively for the political rights of our people. I was looking at Dr Rawiri Jansen\u2019s submission to the tribunal, and it\u2019s so clear, and you heard the Hon Peeni Henare talking about the Treaty. I was looking at one of the paragraphs that Rawiri was talking about, and he summarises it well. He says, in short, \u201CThe Te Tiriti - based approach, where engagement is not an afterthought and partnership decision-making is in evidence, which elevate and reflect the voice of M\u0101ori, will be lost. The Crown\u2019s proposal to proceed without having made any effort to develop an alternative or to engage with M\u0101ori to develop an alternative is a clear breach of Te Tiriti o Waitangi.\u201D That is from Dr Rawiri Jansen. We know him well. We appointed him to a number of boards, and he gives his heart and soul to this kaupapa. I ask Dr Reti to consider that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EAlso, I heard the co-leader of the M\u0101ori Party Debbie Ngarewa-Packer talking about Mason Durie. You\u2019re talking about one of the most brilliant minds of the last generation, without a doubt. And he\u2019s not political, despite who his son-in-law is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c10c4bb81b3640f6ba56916c686e648d\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: He is; I just said he wasn\u2019t. He really is, but, you know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224537b2d337824333a887fd04bce103cc\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, he is political, but he\u2019s not a person who misuses that political standing at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c50b49ebaf943879bddf6027b9ca2b9\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: He tells it straight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c9b1c3286a64c3c87aac41ff75e1203\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: He tells it straight. He\u2019s a good man\u2014a good man\u2014brilliant, brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. And there\u2019s a solidity and stability about him, and he\u2019s given great direction to many of us\u2014to many of us. I know when Peeni Henare was the Minister, he sought his counsel. These are not radical extremist M\u0101oris, like Debbie\u2014oh, no, I won\u2019t go down that track. Ha, ha! But this is the thing: this argument has been turned into some sort of race debate. That\u2019s the sad thing here. We hear some of these idiots from the ACT Party, you know, who run these lines of \u201Cseparatism\u201D and \u201Capartheid\u201D and \u201Cit\u2019s all your fault, you M\u0101oris in the M\u0101ori caucus and you Greenies and you M\u0101ori Party.\u201D That\u2019s got nothing to do with it. These are pragmatic people who are leaders in our society, like Dr Mason Durie, Dr Rawiri Jansen, Dr Papaarangi Reid. And this is mana wahine absolute\u2014absolute. Papaarangi challenges everyone; not just the National Party. She\u2019ll challenge M\u0101ori males; she\u2019ll challenge the Labour Party. And I say to this doctor over here, you are ignoring exceptional people who know about this kaupapa much more than the people you have consulted, who seem to only be his mates in the National Party, the rednecks in the\u2014I shouldn\u2019t go that far\u2014the right-wingers in the ACT Party, and the lost lot of New Zealand First. These are the people that Dr Reti has consulted. They wouldn\u2019t have a clue. I\u2019ve got to ask\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfe2c49991744e15bf6294c00dab9818\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Sit down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5007a1a2fe64b318d7e4d8e51a32823\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014I\u2019ve got to ask\u2014no, you sit down and you stay down, because you\u2019ve got no right to speak on this kaupapa. We are being patronised by idiots, you know. Who are the experts that these people are talking about? I\u2019ve just named three. What about Dr Anthony Jordan? He\u2019s another brilliant and exceptional young man.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022694ad5205fcd4ff6a914be2571a19ebf\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: Yep, he\u2019s a lucky man, too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236f815950f6e4459a7637c40c0714695\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t know if he\u2019s a lucky man. I don\u2019t know about that, Shan. But he\u2019s an exceptional young doctor who worked with us in the roll-out in the vaccination process. What about Dr Lily Fraser at Turuki Health? Dr Lily, who\u2019s also one real gun amongst the doctors. We really love her work, particularly in South Auckland in M\u0101ngere. She works at Turuki Health, an organisation that was set up by my uncle Syd Jackson and by my first cousin Ramari Jackson. That\u2019s been part and parcel of our South Auckland community for the last 30 or 35 years. I ask Dr Reti: who are your people who you have consulted with? Give me two, three, one M\u0101ori professional who supports this. Does he really believe in this? Because our people have waited decades for this. Tureiti Moxon, my dear friend Tureiti Moxon, who is the chairman\u2014the chairperson, I should say\u2014of our National Urban M\u0101ori Authority\u2014a bit of a thorn in our side sometimes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b55f81d077d4f54aeffb2cf3fe54772\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Good lady.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4916d0b44384bd2be358084f51afaad\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: A good lady. A bit of a thorn in our side sometimes, my dear friend Tureiti Moxon, who actually took my position as the chair of the National Urban M\u0101ori Authority. But she has constantly\u2014constantly\u2014talked about how M\u0101ori needed an opportunity within the system. So these are just some of the experts that I was rolling out. I was going to also talk about Lance O\u2019Sullivan, who\u2019s another expert\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d84f1f59c6540cdb8a3e184a2122151\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: He wanted to be a National Party MP.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022663effa4a4b6442f8f77476bd699cfe6\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: That was the problem with Lance, but he\u2019s still a good man. They\u2019re all saying the same thing, but who are the experts that the other side can quote? That\u2019s my challenge. And when we get into the question time, I want to hear\u2014apart from Winston Peters and Jenny Marcroft and Shane Jones, who did Dr Reti talk to? Name some professionals. It\u2019s like David Seymour\u2014who the heck is he consulting with his Treaty principles bill? Oh, that\u2019s right: Elizabeth Rata. Oh my goodness! Such an expert on M\u0101ori race relations! There\u2019s an arrogance that has come from this Government that really upsets us, because our experts have said, \u201CWe want this set up within the system.\u201D And so I\u2019m proud that our party was able to set this up, led by my friend and brother over here Peeni Henare, who set this up within the mainstream system. We never dreamt that we could have a M\u0101ori Health Authority within the system. We\u2019ve done that. We\u2019re proud of it. Our people love it. The other side want to destroy it. We\u2019re looking forward to going through question time and finding out who the experts were that they spoke to. Kia ora, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022 data-id=\u00220e918ebc8f634b358d62bd5d3e04c00f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e918ebc8f634b358d62bd5d3e04c00f\u0022\u003EDr HAMISH CAMPBELL (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak on the Pae Ora (Disestablishment of M\u0101ori Health Authority) Amendment Bill, for the second reading. This Government is committed to finding more effective ways to work with all communities for better outcomes and to deliver solutions, as well as finding savings through disestablishment which may actually go to better health outcomes. You can build whatever structures you like, but till you focus on outcomes, you\u2019re going to have increasing health inequities, and patients will suffer. Merging the functions of the M\u0101ori Health Authority and transferring its roles in the public health system means health systems keep its experts and expertise it needs to improve the outcomes for all New Zealanders, including M\u0101ori. So, therefore, I recommend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022 data-id=\u0022f8fbcc63f4964bfe86cead53f12122f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f8fbcc63f4964bfe86cead53f12122f7\u0022\u003ECUSHLA TANGAERE-MANUEL (Labour\u2014Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe. Tuatahi m\u0101ku he tautoko i ng\u0101 mihi a \tH\u014Dnore Jackson i t\u0113nei r\u0101 ki te wh\u0101nau o Efeso, otir\u0101 ki a koutou hoki, tana p\u0101ti e noho tonu ana i raro i te kapua p\u014Duri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EHe mihi hoki ki t\u014Dku ake wh\u0101nau e noho ana i raro i te kapua p\u014Duri, ar\u0101 ng\u0101 wh\u0101nau Horran, ng\u0101 wh\u0101nau Reedy. Kei te tangi te ng\u0101kau ki a koutou. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EHeoi an\u014D ki ng\u0101 mahi huhua o te w\u0101, haere, haere atu r\u0101 koutou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EHuri noa ki a t\u0101tou o t\u0113nei Whare, tihei mauri ora. Tihei mauri ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003E[Thank you. Firstly for me is support for the acknowledgments of the Hon Willie Jackson today to the wh\u0101nau of Efeso, indeed to you also, his party that remain under the cloud of sadness. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EAn acknowledgment to my own family also that sit under the cloud of sadness\u2014i.e., the Horran families, the Reedy families. My heart cries for you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EHowever, the many recently departed, go forth, rest in peace. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EAnd to us all around this House, the breath of life.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003ETihei mauri ora\u2014behold, the breath of life. That is what Te Aka Whai Ora represented to us\u2014an opportunity that we may, ourselves, breathe the breath of life into our people, Aotearoa wh\u0101nui, utilising our traditional knowledge and our modern expertise in the area of medicine as well. That hope is being dashed today as we stand here to disestablish Te Aka Whai Ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EI\u2019m reminded of an experience I had about 20 years ago while studying. A century on from the Tohunga Suppression Act, it came up in our studies. A woman a bit more senior than myself, and a dear friend, said to me, \u201CNow I know what\u2019s wrong with me.\u201D I said, \u201CWhat do you mean?\u201D She\u2019s someone we would characterise as a kaimahi rongo\u0101, or, indeed, a tohunga. But for many years, because she was deprived of our traditional models and the knowledge of our tikanga and our practices, she thought something was wrong with her. She had nobody to teach her. It impacted her mental health. She turned to alcohol and drugs, and finally she knew why. So I think this serves as a precautionary tale to us. All these years later, we take that risk again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EI had every intention of coming into this calm and speaking about some of my family experiences, but I can\u2019t help but sit here and feel insulted\u2014insulted by that side of the House, who are telling us that they understand what\u2019s best for us, they want what\u2019s best for us. Excellent; let us tell you what that is and help us put that into action.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EI\u2019m furthermore insulted, such is the arrogance that when the Hon Willow-Jean Prime was making her case for hauora M\u0101ori\u2014the wellbeing of M\u0101ori, in our language\u2014barely half of that side put in their earpieces to hear what she was saying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EHeoi an\u014D, I want to acknowledge the presence today of some kaimahi hauora M\u0101ori in our area. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou. Nau mai, haere mai. I want to acknowledge the amazing mahi you do, not only for wh\u0101nau M\u0101ori; I know for a fact that the services these people represent cater to all people in their region\u2014M\u0101ori mai, P\u0101keh\u0101 mai, Pasifika mai, ahakoa n\u014D hea [including M\u0101ori, P\u0101keh\u0101, Pasifika, wherever they are from]. No matter who they are or where they are from, these services help them and their wh\u0101nau, utilising the unique and impactful kaupapa M\u0101ori practices that we have. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou. Be assured that I and this party will continue to advocate for you to be able to do the unique mahi you do for the benefit of all New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EHeoi an\u014D, another reason this Te Aka Whai Ora is so important to me is as a daughter who wonders what would have been had my mother\u2019s belief in rongo\u0101 M\u0101ori been honoured. She was told, \u201COne or the other.\u201D There was no balance sought. You know what? We wanted her to be able to treat her body as tapu, but when she declined surgery, she was told, \u201CYou\u2019ll be back in a box.\u201D, and treated inadequately because she believed in rongo\u0101 M\u0101ori. I\u2019m pleased to report my mother did live for another 10 years, but we can only wonder what would have been if her beliefs were honoured and she was provided mainstream care to go alongside that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EHeoi an\u014D, just this afternoon, the Prime Minister said\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201CWe believe in better outcomes for M\u0101ori.\u201D Sadly, it appears that\u2019s only if M\u0101ori behave in the capacity of committee members and advisories, not as authorities on a subject that is literally us. So I\u2019m sad to say that this bill represents the dashing of hope, because it was something that was M\u0101ori-inspired, M\u0101ori-led, and all-inclusive. T\u0113n\u0101 rawa atu koe, e te M\u0101ngai. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022 data-id=\u002256d91a0748a44ca98c1b0a42e6825f1d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002256d91a0748a44ca98c1b0a42e6825f1d\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E I rise in support of the Pae Ora (Disestablishment of M\u0101ori Health Authority) Amendment Bill. It is my great pleasure to do so, because one of the reasons that I came to this House was because of my incredible anger at the destruction of our wonderful health system, wrought upon us by the previous Labour Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Health Authority seemed like such a great idea and I held out such hope, as did so many of my health colleagues but, unfortunately, the causes of M\u0101ori health poor outcomes have got nothing to do with the health system; it\u2019s to do with colonisation, it\u2019s to do with the impacts of poor, it\u2019s all about the fact that economic decisions and social policy have more impact than anything to do with the health system. So trying to restore and improve health outcomes for M\u0101ori through health policy is going to be useless.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003EI remember my friend Dr Marcia Walker, who is the granddaughter of Ranginui Walker\u2014she was on the committee with me for the council of general practitioners\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2ced654a0784707a11964edc2064f90\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: What would she say to what you\u2019re doing today?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280bdeb20a198424f80edb2f5c6d8381d\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014she said that she hoped that the board would stand up and say\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c94214ea8373456d94b5366330b55ad1\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: How shameful that you would use her name. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271a7b9a1d0004e30916ef6d05cac723c\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014\u201CAll of this money should be used to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5ff92b566d840989fdb302e9caa4bf3\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Halbert, please don\u2019t bring the Speaker into this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222afc89995b0842ae95c36bda098b2174\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014house M\u0101ori, and we will actually put the money towards things that will make a difference to M\u0101ori health, and the M\u0101ori Health Authority will do nothing at all.\u201D The thing that we hoped for that would make a difference was the iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards; however, the previous Government actually watered down the recommendations for that and they were going to be completely toothless\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245b924bb83fc4e38af70096815ac8a80\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Is that why you\u2019re taking away their voice?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261f12fbbe6314a52af6fd703c591e876\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and now we\u2019re keeping the iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards and actually making them effective. You\u2019ve talked about primary health care\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b01663e5d5ae4d07a3ca1c8021cc1ba7\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Please don\u2019t bring the Speaker into the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228413848e9914a7e9c30644a0d11a3ce\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK\u003C/span\u003E: I beg your pardon. She knows nothing much about primary healthcare. I really hoped that primary healthcare was going to be improved but, unfortunately, the previous Government used their mandate on primary healthcare to upset the entire system in a time of a pandemic, and destroyed the morale of our absolutely blasted workforce and did this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003ESo this is one thing that we can do to try and restore some form of health outcome improvement, and I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00228332c00e0b2d45539b0b301eb3060201\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228332c00e0b2d45539b0b301eb3060201\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. I also want to join with my colleagues around the House in acknowledging our colleague Efeso Collins and to mihi to him and his wh\u0101nau today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThis bill is incredibly disappointing, and the speeches we have heard this afternoon have reflected that\u2014both on this side of the House, with a very moving contribution by my colleague the Hon Willow-Jean Prime in her reo rangatira to share her personal reflections about the impact that repealing this will have on her communities and her family, and also on the contribution of Cushla Tangaere-Manuel when she spoke about the impact of the long history of health inequality for M\u0101ori in New Zealand on her mother and the way that inequitable access to not only advice but medicines impacted not only her health but the health and wellbeing of her entire family.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThat has been met with incredibly disappointing speeches on the other side from practitioners, some of whom were previously practitioners in general practice and supposedly experts in health, who know that the status quo never worked for M\u0101ori and appreciate the deep inequities which have delivered health outcomes for M\u0101ori that would not be fixed by going back to that system. More M\u0101ori die from avoidable deaths than non-M\u0101ori. M\u0101ori die seven years earlier than any other group. M\u0101ori are twice as likely to die of a cardiovascular or heart disease. These are things which returning to the status quo will not improve, and the Pae Ora healthy futures reform allowed a once-in-a-generation opportunity to address those things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EInstead of building on those reforms, instead of continuing the work that was happening not only at the community level but within families themselves, which Cushla Tangaere-Manuel and Willow-Jean Prime have spoken about, we are walking back to a system which is more centralised, which leaves iwi M\u0101ori out of the system where we had worked so hard to bring them into it. It leaves out the voices of those people who have systematically been left out for generations but who for the first time had a seat at the table\u2014and not only those iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards but in the Hauora M\u0101ori Advisory Committee and in the M\u0101ori Health Authority itself. This is a huge regression for M\u0101ori, and it represents a huge lost opportunity for a new generation of New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ENow, we know that the old system underperformed. It underperformed for a number of practical reasons, and I\u2019ll get on to those, but I would point out that speakers on this side of the House have already underscored the fact that the Minister knows that, appreciates the underperformance in the system, but that this is part of a wider political narrative. And we keep hearing it from the other side when they stand up and say, \u201CWe have an electoral mandate to do this.\u201D The electoral mandate is there because it was won in a furore of his wrong-headed idea that M\u0101ori were getting special rights and special treatment, and, in fact, that debate was whipped up by members on the other side of this House. That electoral mandate was won not from M\u0101ori, who suffer the worst and most inequitable health outcomes in our entire country; it was won by people who were afraid of the kind of narrative that politicians on that side were feeding them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ELabour had the courage to stand up and say there are practical fixes we can do for this that will make the health outcomes for M\u0101ori more equitable. There are practical ways that district health boards (DHBs) haven\u2019t been able to deliver on their promises, and so a nationalised health system that has a mandate to get in there, roll up its sleeves, and deal with M\u0101ori health outcomes will actually be able to do that. But it did take courage. It did take telling the story, and, for the most part, I think New Zealanders appreciated that there was a longstanding inequity here that the system could not solve if there wasn\u2019t substantive change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s really disappointing now that we are standing in this House and not only are we repealing the M\u0101ori Health Authority but there are also a number of changes in this bill, which I will be asking the Minister questions about in the committee stage, which take away the voice of iwi, of M\u0101ori, and of appointed experts in M\u0101ori health within the system and replace them with people who are appointed directly by the Minister and who can be dismissed by the Minister at any time. This is not localisation in any way. This is taking away the power of iwi and local entities to work with M\u0101ori communities, and it is, essentially, a power grab for the Minister to take all of those devolved powers back into the central ministry. This is bureaucracy for M\u0101ori health outcomes. This is not only returning to the old system that did not work for M\u0101ori; it\u2019s bureaucratising the system that was actually successful for M\u0101ori, that generated a number of successful initiatives like the iwi-led MMR vaccines drive, which was so effective and we want to see more of. There is no consistency around the way that we localise these things in the way that works.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI said I\u2019d talk about the practical implications of these changes. One of the good examples of this was the Counties Manukau DHB. That DHB, which dealt with the health concerns of South Aucklanders and provided health services for South Auckland for many, many years, carried a burden of diabetes and heart disease unlike any other DHB in the country. The number of cases of diabetes, and particularly type 2 diabetes, that were presenting in the public health system in that DHB was unlike any other DHB. What that meant was that other services had to be provided at a lower level so that the DHB could continue to provide for those services. Dealing with that locally, if you lived within Counties Manukau, meant that at the DHB you might have, say, a longer waiting-list for a certain procedure or, say, you might be eligible for a certain service at 65, where, in Auckland Central, you would be eligible for that service at 60. The reason for that disparity was because it had a high prevalence of M\u0101ori in the area, and the needs of M\u0101ori were so great that this locality was dealing with a deeply underserved population for many, many reasons which have been made clear in this House. And so that localised system simply didn\u2019t work for the entire population, because there was this deep need for M\u0101ori health services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo when the Pae Ora reforms proposed to solve that problem, it wasn\u2019t just that localities would be done away with; it was that these problems that had been besetting DHBs like Counties Manukau would actually be dealt with head-on: that things that the M\u0101ori population needed to enjoy longer and healthier lives would be done in an equitable way, not only in Counties Manukau but all over the country; that these systems that had been dealt by that DHB to create efficiencies in the system would be shared with everyone. That is a good thing. It is not a woke kind of reform because we believe in it or because the Treaty obligations require the Crown to; it is simply something practical which meant that everyone in the population could get a better health service.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s also a practical example around historic underfunding of hospitals and communities with large M\u0101ori populations. Essentially, for the same kind of logic that these towns and areas and localities with high M\u0101ori populations have always had high health needs, they haven\u2019t been able to develop the infrastructure in the same way as other communities that do not have those high-needs populations. So, because of this historic underfunding, the way that the capital programme works and the way that the Crown invested in its hospitals, meant that hospitals were successively underfunded more and more over time. And so the Pae Ora reforms actually, again, dealt with that problem by disestablishing the DHBs, and it meant that underfunded populations would not continue to lose out on the kind of infrastructure they need in the health system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThose are two practical examples of how the Pae Ora reforms addressed that. It\u2019s really sad to see that now we won\u2019t have a M\u0101ori Health Authority that is charged with continuing on those important gains which we all want to see in our health system for the benefit of everyone, not just M\u0101ori within the health system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EA quick observation, before we get to the committee stage, on the consistency with the Government\u2019s Treaty of Waitangi obligations. I want to speak here about the departmental disclosure statement which found that there was not necessarily any obligations that were being breached, when, in fact, Crown Law\u2019s own advice, in its memo to the Waitangi Tribunal dated 31 January, found that \u201CThe Crown confirms that, procedurally, no formal consultation was planned or occurred by the Crown before Cabinet confirmed the decision to disestablish Te Aka Whai Ora. On a conventional assessment of impact and importance, the Crown deciding to make this decision without consultation can be expected to result in a finding by the Tribunal that Treaty principles have been breached and that prejudice has resulted.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s important for the House to fully appreciate that the Crown\u2019s own advice is that the introduction of this bill would, on the face of it, constitute a breach of the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022 data-id=\u00228ff72f90819d44699c974c0fc205bb26\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ff72f90819d44699c974c0fc205bb26\u0022\u003EDr CARLOS CHEUNG (National\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E There\u2019s no denying that, really, we could improve M\u0101ori health outcomes in New Zealand, and this Government is working hard on it. I heard the Opposition side of the House mention inequity, a failed health system, racism, discrimination, etc., but I haven\u2019t heard any members from the opposite side mention the word \u201Cself-responsibility\u201D. As a diabetes and cardio specialist, I can tell you that with self-responsibility and discipline, some of the health issues we\u2019re facing in New Zealand can be prevented. This Government will continue to work together with our M\u0101ori community to deliver a solution. But creating an unequal system based on specific race is not a solution to our health system. People in New Zealand want a health system based on needs, not race. This bill is about equity, not inequity. Therefore, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225fcbedaabdd84e24ae54e72a63f49b24\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Pae Ora (Disestablishment of M\u0101ori Health Authority) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000626\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00225729f9f046184f7cbf55d0607b3c7d81\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225729f9f046184f7cbf55d0607b3c7d81\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for committee stage immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221ac121d3d5ba443ca6a7371f24bb6a5b\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226bdced0bba2245c197501a427c0c713e\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to Parts 1 to 3\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c67a38f534904eb7aa37c5b1e5b1f413\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c67a38f534904eb7aa37c5b1e5b1f413\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Pae Ora (Disestablishment of M\u0101ori Health Authority) Amendment Bill. We come now to Part 1. Part 1 is the debate on clauses 4 to 37, \u201CAmendments to Parts 1 to 3\u201D of the principal Act. The question is that Part 1 stand part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u00221fe622f6f507451daa05b90e04128f09\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221fe622f6f507451daa05b90e04128f09\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you for the opportunity to open with a contribution, of course, analysing Part 1. I mentioned in the first reading and in the second reading that we will be going through clause by clause to make sure that we can interrogate properly the Government\u2019s intentions and actions as set out in this particular bill, and we will challenge them as we will continue to oppose this. But those views have been well articulated across the House and it brings me to my first question\u2014and I mentioned it in my first and second reading speeches\u2014which relates directly to clause 6. It says here that clause 6 amends section 6, which describes how the Act provides for \u201Cthe Crown\u2019s intention to give effect to the principles of te Tiriti o Waitangi (the Treaty of Waitangi),\u201D to reflect changes made by the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWell, the first question I have for the Minister is that in considering this particular clause, one can\u2019t help but question as we look across all of the clauses in Part 1 what this one sets out in clause 6\u2014how it\u2019s trying to divorce itself from the rhetoric throughout the entire bill. For example, one of the principles here is, of course, the principle of partnership, yet we see later on, in clause 19, that section 35 is being amended, and with respect to the preparation of the Government Policy Statement (GPS), it removes a M\u0101ori voice. In fact, if you look across at section 35, \u201CPreparation of the GPS\u201D, it silences the M\u0101ori voice there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister in the first instance is: does he see clause 6 sitting separately or intertwined throughout all the clauses we\u2019ll be debating in Part 1? That\u2019s the first question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe second question is that as we look across the principles of Te Tiriti o Waitangi, the principles of partnership and acting in good faith don\u2019t seem to be apparent as we look towards the changes that this bill is making. I\u2019ve already highlighted clause 19 and the section 35 amendment. We can also go on to give another example here of clause 15, where section 30 is amended, and it goes down to the bottom there, to clause 15(5), which is: \u201CRepeal section 30(1)(g).\u201D, and that\u2019s about iwi M\u0101ori getting to have a say on appointments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ENow, when we think of the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi, it\u2019s quite clear to me that (1) their voice isn\u2019t being heard, so therefore one can argue here that that partnership isn\u2019t being met there; and (2) it\u2019s once again a clear breach of good faith as M\u0101ori are expected to only serve part of their consultation and part of their duty within this particular legislation and across the entire Pae Ora legislation, and yet are being silenced in other areas that are key to the successful execution of the Pae Ora legislation itself. So, just to reiterate, the first one is around whether or not the Minister sees that clause 6 stands alone or whether or not he sees it intertwined throughout the entire bill, and I\u2019ve already given the examples of where those changes, I believe, are in contradiction to the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi\u2014and I\u2019ll state them again: clause 19, \u201CSection 35 amended (Preparation of GPS)\u201D. I wonder if the Minister can then explain to the committee and answer this question: then, where in the GPS is the M\u0101ori voice heard?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EFor some of the newer members across the committee, they might not understand how the structure of good health policy in health legislation works. The GPS is one of those important documents that continues to drive the policy of health in this country, yet what we\u2019re seeing here is a complete breach of clause 6, which says about the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi\u2014and here, once again, is another example of how this particular bill continues to silence the M\u0101ori voice on such important matters and important documents that will continue to drive health policy in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI now turn to another part which continues to do this\u2014contradict the principles of Te Tiriti o Waitangi. When I look at new section 15 in clause 11, where it says here that \u201CHealth New Zealand must support and engage with iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards\u201D and then it goes down to say \u201CHealth New Zealand must\u2014(a) take reasonable steps to support iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards\u201D, one of those reasonable steps, one would expect, is actually consultation up front. What this sets out to do is give somewhat of a back-door exit, if you will, to give the Government a bit of a clause to escape out the back door when we look towards whether or not the engagement by Health New Zealand with M\u0101ori is appropriate and is timely. I\u2019d like the Minister, if he can, with respect to that particular clause\u2014if he can explain to us in his mind and, indeed, the mind of the Government what do \u201Creasonable steps\u201D look like to support iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards to achieve their purpose in section 29. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EIt does go on further to say that part of that is by including \u201Cadministrative, analytical, or financial support where needed;\u201D. It would be remiss of me not to indicate to the committee at this point in time that the iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards in their establishment\u2014some are ahead of others, some are far better equipped, some have better infrastructure to be able to look towards having a proper, functioning iwi-M\u0101ori partnership board within their region, and I can describe one of those. It\u2019s where a number of us in the House come from, in Te Tai Tokerau. Te Kahu o Taonui already has pretty good infrastructure across the M\u0101ori health provider network and it has already proven really great outcomes during COVID-19, which I elaborated on through the first and second readings of the bill. That is why I want to make sure that if the Minister can answer this question, he understands where those iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards are with respect to their ability to provide their function, because what he\u2019s proposing here is to include by providing \u201Cadministrative, analytical, or financial support where needed;\u201D. Well, I\u2019ve already indicated some are ahead and some aren\u2019t quite as far ahead as others. So is the Minister committing, then, to making sure he can support its administrative function and its analytical function, and so on, as it says in new section 15? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe other one is: sufficient and timely information. The other side of the House\u2014and this is the question I put to the Minister\u2014were rather dismissive of the COVID-19 pandemic that hit the world, and one of the key arguments for the case of Te Aka Whai Ora was made by Mr John Tamihere in the timely release of analytical data in order to serve our communities. That community was the M\u0101ori community. In fact, he took that case all the way to the High Court. In new section 15, I\u2019m asking the Minister: what then does \u201Csufficient and timely information\u201D look like? Is it the kind of data that will allow iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards and M\u0101ori health providers and iwi to make decisions in order to serve those communities in a timely fashion and in a very targeted fashion? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWe heard the Minister talk about how it\u2019s important to target, set targets, and home in on where the need is. Well, it\u2019s clear to us\u2014and all of the data that\u2019s presented by health professionals\u2014that the need sits with M\u0101ori. So, to reiterate, for that particular question: what does \u201Csufficient and timely information\u201D look like? What does it look like? Is it structured in a way that allows M\u0101ori to have input on what it is that they\u2019re looking for in order to get the outcome that the Government might look towards, or is it simply another case of paternalistic central bureaucracy telling iwi what to do?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EIn the last minute and a half of this particular contribution, I want to come back and circle back to clause 6. Clause 6, in reference to the principles of Te Tiriti o Waitangi: in order for that particular clause to work, we made it clear, as the Government of the time, to make sure that all of the steps throughout the entire pae ora legislation would continue to reference back to the principles and allow it to be successful. I want to remind the Minister that as we scroll through the proposed changes in his bill here, we can\u2019t help but see the stripping away of a M\u0101ori voice, of a M\u0101ori presence, and of the ability for M\u0101ori to contribute meaningfully, not only to the outcome but to the planning, to the discussions, and to everything that it takes in order to get a successful outcome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EJust finally from me, you will hear from the members on this side of the Chamber, those with significant community experience and with significant health experience, a continual prosecution of the clauses within this particular bill proposed by the Minister in order to get some clear definition. It\u2019s important that we get that clear definition for our M\u0101ori communities, who have been silenced on the progress of this bill. Madam Chair, thank you very much. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022578488faa7054812aa18a46a05de6474\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022578488faa7054812aa18a46a05de6474\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Chair. Thank you for the opportunity to make a contribution in this committee stage. I have a number of questions for the Minister of Health about the way that the function of the iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards and the Hauora M\u0101ori Advisory Committee will work without the assistance of the M\u0101ori Health Authority. My specific questions are also to do with a number of amendments which I have tabled which are seeking to clarify the role of those bodies, given that the M\u0101ori Health Authority will not be playing the role that it was set up to perform for the benefit of M\u0101ori health outcomes and for the stewardship of those outcomes within the system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMy first question to the Minister is this: given that the iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards, under the Minister\u2019s proposals, will not be able to appoint people to the Hauora M\u0101ori Advisory Committee, I\u2019m interested in how the Minister sees the iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards having conversations within the health system at a top level about the priorities within their locality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThis relates to my second question, which is that iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards, under the Minister\u2019s proposal, would no longer have an ability to feed into the development of those locality plans. That is being expressly written out of the legislation, but it was something which was a subject of the select committee\u2019s inquiry into the bill, in the Pae Ora Legislation Committee, which was set up as a special committee, about how iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards and how iwi themselves would need to feed into that locality planning, and it would be a really good way of localising the planning that needed to happen in the health system, given that we would now have a broadly nationalised system. So that question to the Minister is about how iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards can continue to have that local focus and feed into what needs to be a deeply localised planning model at that level. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMy third question to the Minister is about who he intends to appoint to the Hauora M\u0101ori Advisory Committee, because under the Minister\u2019s new proposals, he would be the only appointer of eight new members of that committee. Just for the benefit of the committee, that committee would not have been something which was appointed only by the Minister before. This, in fact, represents a major centralisation of power here. It represents Ministers taking on a role that was previously devolved to representatives of local communities, who worked hand in glove with organisations like their local councils, their local providers, and their local people on the ground actually seeing and distributing these health services. So the question to the Minister is: is it his intention to appoint people who will fulfil that role of local leadership, local stewardship, from iwi M\u0101ori groups, and if he could give the committee an indication of the eight people whom he intends to appoint\u2014because their appointments are due on 30 June\u2014that would assist the committee greatly in understanding how that local voice will be preserved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EIt would also be very useful for the Minister to clarify for the committee what criteria he\u2019s using to make those appointments, what advice he has taken to make those appointments, and the considerations that he has taken into account to achieve a balanced representation when he is considering those appointments. There are a number of factors that any Minister will go through in considering what sort of advisory group he or she will be appointing, and so it is really beneficial for the committee to understand that, because those are not outlined in the primary legislation. Unlike many of the ministerial appointments where there is a clear guidance for the type of skills, there is none of that because it is not an established process, and it is not outlined in the primary legislation. So we need to appreciate that before we can go forward on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMy next question to the Minister is: will the Hauora M\u0101ori Advisory Committee have a secretariat? Under the new proposals by the Minister, this group would fulfil a role which is unlike its current role, and so it\u2019s important that that is a group that is resourced to be able to make the kinds of recommendations which this set of proposals to repeal the bill would require of it\u2014so whether there is a secretariat, what kind of resourcing will be available to it, whether it will have its own staff, whether it will be set up to succeed, or whether it will be set up to fail. That is the question I\u2019m asking here, because currently it is not doing the kind of job that is envisioned by these reforms, and so it\u2019s really important for the committee to appreciate whether there is a protection for it to continue to do that work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe next question I have for the Minister is: will it be able to proactively advise the Minister, because as it is worded in the current reforms, it is for the Minister to establish it, but then there is no requirement on the Minister to consult it on any matters. This is different from what existed in the legislation before, where the Minister was required to engage with certain bodies within the health system on outcomes for M\u0101ori. Essentially, this was about creating ownership\u2014rangatiratanga\u2014over outcomes for M\u0101ori, by M\u0101ori. It was about establishing leadership within the health system of experts who were appointed by people who supported them and saw them as leaders within the system to make proactive points to the Minister. Those powers have been taken away, so we need an assurance from the Minister that he will allow this board to proactively advise him on his decisions and decisions being made in the health system which will have an impact on M\u0101ori health and M\u0101ori health outcomes. They are things like resourcing decisions, things like legislative decisions\u2014which my colleague Cushla Tangaere-Manuel talked about\u2014that, historically, have been made without M\u0101ori involvement and should be, going forward, because I have no doubt that everyone in this House believes, to some degree, in people being involved in the decisions which affect them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMy next question to the Minister is specifically about the locality plans. If iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards\u2014as is proposed in these reforms\u2014do not have the ability to contribute to locality plans, how will locality plans represent the interests of M\u0101ori within them? How will the entities that are tasked with providing the Ministry of Health with a locality plan be sure that they have taken population concerns for everyone into account, knowing that there is this particular equity concern for M\u0101ori, and how will those locality plans be responsive to the needs of M\u0101ori and to addressing the M\u0101ori health outcomes going forward?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe final question that I have for the Minister is this. Under the new model, there is no legislative backstop for the Hauora M\u0101ori Advisory Committee to be able to give proactive advice that the Minister doesn\u2019t like. There is no legislative backstop for that group of people to say something publicly that is challenging for the status quo. That was a large part of the strength of the pae ora reforms: it was to create a way for M\u0101ori health to be prioritised systematically to enable continuous improvement in the way that we address inequity for M\u0101ori. So my question to the Minister, finally, is: what happens if they say something he doesn\u2019t like? How will we ensure that all advice, not just good advice, is what makes it to the Minister when he is the sole appointer and has the sole power to dictate their resourcing and their ability to provide that advice going forward, because it\u2019s in everyone\u2019s interest, not only M\u0101ori, to have a health system that works for everyone and to make sure that resources are spent in the most efficient way that\u2019s actually going to work for people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo those are my questions about the way that this works, and I will, if I may, come back to the amendments, which I think would more effectively achieve some of the changes to the way that M\u0101ori participate in the system, in coming speeches. I have 40 amendments in my name, Madam Chair; I would love to have 40 calls in this debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u002264daae4aaeb44a988fa08c059ebc442f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002264daae4aaeb44a988fa08c059ebc442f\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and I thank the members for their discourse. To come first to the member who has raised questions around clause 6, clause 6 is a descriptive clause that reflects the changes to Health New Zealand functions to ensure that some of the M\u0101ori Health Authority functions can transfer over to Health New Zealand and the M\u0101ori Health Authority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EWith regards to the broader question around obligations that are contained in clause 6, I\u2019d say several things, particularly where the member was asking really good questions around the M\u0101ori voice. Several things: first of all, the legislation clearly uplifts the voice of the Hauora M\u0101ori Advisory Committee (HMAC), so a very clear M\u0101ori voice there. Secondly, health service monitoring and decision making by iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards (IMPBs) is mana motuhake almost by definition. Thirdly, delivery of services close to the home and hap\u016B is consistent with obligations we have to all New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EThe member also asked about the IMPB capacity, and he\u2019s absolutely right. IMPBs are at different levels of capacity, and we\u2019ve looked at what that will entail to bring them up to a level where they are able to analyse, to collate, to take in local information, to do local analysis of it, to then institute local actions as to how to change it, and then pass it up further for aggregation at regional and other levels, where we can get a wider view across the whole sector. So those are some of the expectations, and with those expectations will need to come support to power that up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EThe member over here had some very good questions about the Hauora M\u0101ori Advisory Committee appointments. I\u2019d just point out that the process that the legislation talks to is the process now and has been for the past two years. There\u2019s nothing different to it; I\u2019m just not instituting what was going to be taken into account in July later this year. Those appointments\u2014yes, they\u2019re ministerial appointments, like, as I say, it\u2019s been for the past two years, but of course I will seek advice and consultation from out in the sector and, of course, from IMPBs, as but one group whose voice I need to take into account. So their voice is not lost; it\u2019s just not formalised in the legislation as it was going to be as at July 2024. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EYou\u2019ve asked a question around an invitation for HMAC to proactively offer advice: yes, please. To offer advice that I need or offer advice that I may not want to hear is the privilege and the purpose of HMAC\u2014to be in that position, to be trusted advisers to the Minister and to us so that we can do a better job. So, yes, to answer that question, I do envisage the Hauora M\u0101ori Advisory Committee to proactively offer advice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EThere were several questions around localities. I\u2019ve already indicated in the legislation that through Schedule 1, I think it is, locality plans will be paused and localities will be paused while I reconsider their position going forward. I think that answers a number of questions around localities, the relationship with iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards\u2014they are paused in this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u0022cade3c261b3b4eaf84a5d52ab5e0839a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cade3c261b3b4eaf84a5d52ab5e0839a\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. This may be the last call before the dinner break, and I just want to say that in the Minister\u2019s answers, he was very light in addressing the questions and, in fact, didn\u2019t answer a lot of the points that had been raised by my colleagues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI just want to speak, at this point, to clause 6, which is all about the amendments to Te Tiriti o Waitangi and the principles. In the stroke of a pen and their proposed amendments, what they are actually doing\u2014what they are, effectively, doing\u2014is removing all of the things that had been put into the legislation. This is what clause 6 says: \u201CIn order to provide for the Crown\u2019s intention to give effect to the principles of te Tiriti o Waitangi \u2026, this Act\u201D\u2014will do all of those things listed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ENow, what the Minister is proposing to do is to repeal paragraphs (b), (e), (h), (i), and (j), and replace all of those things with new section 6(c). His answer to how to give effect to the principles of Te Tiriti o Waitangi\u2014the entirety of it\u2014is that it will require \u201Cthe Minister to establish a permanent committee, the Hauora M\u0101ori Advisory Committee, to advise the Minister;\u201D\u2014that\u2019s it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ESo in order to give effect to the principles of Te Tiriti o Waitangi as they relate to pae ora, what was outlined in that section of the Act was the establishment of Te Aka Whai Ora, all of its roles, and all of its functions, and, in the stroke of a pen, the Minister is proposing to repeal paragraphs (b), (e), (h), (i), and (j), and replace them with new section 6(c).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ENow, there are unanswered questions asking for detail about that particular M\u0101ori advisory committee. I think that the Minister needs to answer those ones, because if all of the Government\u2019s obligations and commitment to Te Tiriti o Waitangi is contained in the new section 6(c), then I have some serious concerns.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EIn the departmental disclosure report, there is a section there that says the \u201CConsistency of the government\u2019s Treaty of Waitangi obligations\u201D. The Government has done an analysis on \u201Cthe Treaty implications of disestablishing the M\u0101ori Health Authority.\u201D and, in their own opinion, \u201Cconsiders it will continue to meet its Treaty obligations.\u201D by simply just having a Hauora M\u0101ori Advisory Committee, Minister\u2014appointed by yourself. You can choose whether you take their advice or not. What about all the other roles that Te Aka Whai Ora had in the delivery of pae ora? All of the mechanisms, the ones that you are taking away\u2014for example, in paragraph (e), it will require \u201Cthe Hauora M\u0101ori Strategy to be jointly prepared by the M\u0101ori Health Authority and the Ministry;\u201D. That\u2019s gone. Just gone straight out of the Act, so no M\u0101ori health strategy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EThen we\u2019ve got paragraph (h). Paragraph (h) \u201Crequires Health New Zealand and the M\u0101ori Health Authority to engage with M\u0101ori partnership boards;\u201D. Nope, gone\u2014don\u2019t need that. In terms of paragraph (i), it \u201Crequires Health New Zealand and the M\u0101ori Health Authority to jointly develop and implement a New Zealand Health Plan and to work together in the performance of specified functions of Health New Zealand;\u201D\u2014gone. Paragraph (j): \u201Cincludes, as criteria for appointment to the board of the M\u0101ori Health Authority, that the board collectively has knowledge of, and experience and expertise in relation to, te Tiriti o Waitangi \u2026, tikanga M\u0101ori, m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori,\u201D\u2014which, I point out, you also want to take reference to \u201Cm\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori\u201D out\u201D\u2014kaupapa M\u0101ori services, and cultural safety and responsiveness of services;\u201D. Repeal that\u2014repeal all of those things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226779be0ed4af4cd4beab25844548f875\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, we\u2019re repealing the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5f0c2cb1dff46a49020b3a5eb99d78d\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, that\u2019s right. So how can the Minister say that this Hauora M\u0101ori Advisory Committee, appointed now by him with no consultation or input from M\u0101ori and none of the processes that we followed in the first place\u2014T\u0101 Mason Durie and others, iwi who had a role in participating in this and appointing these people who have the support, the mana, the mandate, the tautoko from te ao M\u0101ori. Nope, you\u2019re going to appoint them, and it\u2019s going to be their job to uphold your obligations of Te Tiriti o Waitangi principles in pae ora. So please explain how your Hauora M\u0101ori Advisory Committee is going to achieve all of those things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022797b0bbaad304dd1b820c691c139f7e1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired. Members, the House is adjourned for the dinner break and will resume at 7.30.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 5.58 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ace24e090b434fdda941b30e65675cad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ace24e090b434fdda941b30e65675cad\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Pae Ora (Disestablishment of the M\u0101ori Health Authority) Amendment Bill. Before we adjourned for the dinner break, we were on Part 1, and this is the debate on clause 4 to 37, amendments to Part 1 to 3 of the principal Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u00225e8bf92c9af1423b9de8736dcaaeb24c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e8bf92c9af1423b9de8736dcaaeb24c\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you for the opportunity to contribute further in this very important debate as we go through clause by clause. There were a number of questions that were posed to the Minister before the dinner break which, in the opinion of members on this side of the Chamber, were a light touch in the answer from the Minister. So we\u2019ll look forward to interrogating these clauses further to allow the Minister more time to be able to come up with something far more comprehensive in his response to a number of the questions that members on this side of the Chamber had.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ESo I wish to start my contribution after the dinner break by talking directly to clause 8, which seeks to amend section 12. The original purpose of that particular section was about making sure that when you\u2019ve got a M\u0101ori health authority board, what it did was it guaranteed a place for a member from that board on to Health New Zealand, and that was really important. That was about making sure the voice of M\u0101ori was heard at the top echelon of health leadership in this country. You\u2019ll see in the clause there that it\u2019s looking to repeal that section. I\u2019m wanting some assurances here from the Minister about whether he is looking to have M\u0101ori representation on Health New Zealand, and how does he look towards appointing that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve already heard and canvassed a number of matters with respect to the HMAC\u2014or the Hauora M\u0101ori Advisory Committee. This one, though, is specifically speaking to Health New Zealand, and there are a large number of M\u0101ori health professionals who are more than capable to be able to sit on both the HMAC\u2014which has already been touched upon\u2014but also Health New Zealand. What this particular clause does, though, is repeal the ability to have a M\u0101ori representative on there. Now, I understand that the Minister and the Government have already made it clear that they are going to disestablish the M\u0101ori Health Authority\u2014I get that\u2014and we will prosecute that as we continue in the committee of the whole House. But with respect to Health New Zealand, the important part was to ensure that there was a M\u0101ori voice there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI spoke briefly before the dinner break about the structure of the way health policy is made in this country. There are a number of terms in here which might seem new to some of the new members in the House, but they are important for us to make sure that the voice of M\u0101ori is heard across the entire scope of health planning, and that\u2019s the Government policy statement, the health charter, the New Zealand health plan. What we are afraid of in repealing section 12(4) is that this Government will continue to minimise the voice of M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard from members right across the committee about how important equitable health outcomes are and that resources and the commitment of energy and resource will go to where those health priorities are. It\u2019s clear that the data and everything suggests they are all in the M\u0101ori community, so then how do we ensure that there is a M\u0101ori voice at the top of the tree? Of course there\u2019s the Minister there, and I acknowledge him and his expertise, but with Health New Zealand\u2014and that\u2019s what I wanted to ask the Minister: how can he ensure there\u2019s a M\u0101ori voice on the Health New Zealand board? Is he intending to make sure that there is a M\u0101ori voice and M\u0101ori representation on the board? How will he plan on doing that if he\u2019s going to be repealing the ability for the M\u0101ori Health Authority board to have somebody on the Health New Zealand board? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EIt was well served since its creation by Tipa Mahuta. But also, we were really proud of a number of the others who were on the Health New Zealand board who were part-M\u0101ori, and I wonder if the Minister can explain how we will continue to have that M\u0101ori voice at the top of the tree.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe next question I have is with respect to clause 13, where it\u2019s going to insert new section 16A with respect to engaging with and reporting to M\u0101ori. It says here, in new section 16A(b), \u201Creport back to M\u0101ori from time to time on how engagement under this section has informed the performance of its functions.\u201D If the Minister can be clear with us on what \u201Cfrom time to time\u201D actually means; is it what we\u2019re hearing from members on the other side of the Chamber that it\u2019s only every three years because \u201CWe\u2019ve got a mandate.\u201D\u2014because that\u2019s what we\u2019re hearing from that side\u2014or is this suggesting that there are going to be far more periodical opportunities for M\u0101ori to be able to engage with the reporting back? I ask those questions of the Minister, if he will indulge us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00226307c2d93f8745f282725b322345bc5c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226307c2d93f8745f282725b322345bc5c\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. This is my first opportunity to speak in the debate on this piece of legislation, and I want to pick up where my colleague the Hon Peeni Henare has left off, around the way in which the various parts of what will now be the way in which the health system interacts with M\u0101ori take shape. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EIn doing so, I have to\u2014because it\u2019s my first opportunity to speak on the bill\u2014indicate that philosophically, I find this bill repugnant. I do that because what this bill does is shift us from a place where a by M\u0101ori, for M\u0101ori focus at central government level is guaranteed to take that away and rely now on a series of patchwork, band-aid - type approaches which say from this Government to M\u0101ori, \u201CWe know best how this will work.\u201D That\u2019s not actually the philosophy of Te Aka Whai Ora, which was that M\u0101ori know best what works and that the Government would facilitate and encourage that. I just have to put on the record that that\u2019s why I am so strongly opposed to this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EBut what the Government is now proposing in replacement for that is what I want to now ask some questions of the Minister of Health about. That is, essentially what starts in the amendment to section 6 in clause 6 in Part 1, and the first question I have for the Minister relates to the establishment of the Hauora M\u0101ori Advisory Committee and their concept of this being a committee to advise the Minister. I want to understand from the Minister how he thinks that advice will be generated to him, because one of the concerns we have on this side of the House is that almost universally, we\u2019re hearing from iwi and hap\u016B around the country that they supported Te Aka Whai Ora because of that very by M\u0101ori, for M\u0101ori approach that I mentioned before. So my first question to the Minister is: what is the nature of the advice that he expects to get from this committee, and how will that advice be informed by iwi and hap\u016B around Aotearoa? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EOn this point, I want to note my colleague Arena Williams\u2019 proposed amendment to section 6(2), which is to insert, after the words \u201Cto advise the Minister\u201D, the words \u201Cincluding alerting the Minister proactively to any matters that impact on the health and wellbeing of M\u0101ori\u201D. Now, what we\u2019re trying to do on this side of the House is to actually improve what we consider to be by a huge distance a second-, third- or fourth-best approach that the Government is taking but also actually try to give some shape to this, because otherwise I think we\u2019re establishing an advisory committee that will have little teeth and be without, really, the kinds of connections that we would expect within te ao M\u0101ori to actually be able to give that advice to the Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe reason I connect this to what my colleague has just been speaking about is that when you look at what the Government is doing in Part 1, you\u2019ve got the committee that\u2019s going to be advising the Minister, and then you\u2019ve got the board of Health New Zealand\u2014so, you know, this is the structure of our system. We\u2019ve got the Minister, we\u2019ve got Health New Zealand, and we will come\u2014and this will probably be in a future call, when we come to talk about the iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards, who represent another layer of the structure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI know the Minister is a fan of the whiteboard in his office, and it wouldn\u2019t be a bad idea if we could just drag the whiteboard down here and put it up behind him so that we could actually follow the logic here, because I have real concerns about how the voice of iwi and hap\u016B will be heard in the structures that the Minister is now proposing. So he has this advisory committee, and, as I say, I\u2019d like to hear from him around exactly how that advice will be generated, how it will work, and what he would consider about giving some more specificity, as Arena Williams has proposed in her amendment. But then we have to get into what Health New Zealand is going to do, because now a huge amount of work has been placed on Health New Zealand, and, as Mr Henare has just said, how are we going to see M\u0101ori representation there? We were well served when we had Te Aka Whai Ora working closely with Health New Zealand\u2014Te Whatu Ora. Now, I don\u2019t know, when I look at clause 8 of this bill, \u201CSection 12 amended\u201D, whether the board of Health New Zealand will genuinely be able to play its role in there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EMadam Chair, we\u2019ll see whether you\u2019ll give me another call, and I\u2019ll move on to the next of my questions\u2014Madam Chair? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9430857525648328deb5b7c42c5a249\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Grant Robertson. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d8232f3d64244a59aa910248805b258\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair\u2014it was good timing. I won\u2019t take the whole of this call, because this is the third of my questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EIf we then go down to new section 15 in clause 11, which is Health New Zealand providing information to iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards, I\u2019m really concerned by that phrasing, because that is not the relationship that iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards were meant to have. Their relationship is both within their communities and it was a very direct relationship with Te Aka Whai Ora. Now, we\u2019ve got this very weak clause. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s think about some of the words that have been used in it: \u201Csupport and engage\u201D, \u201Ctake reasonable steps\u201D\u2014who\u2019s deciding what \u201Creasonable steps\u201D are, Minister? Can you tell us what a reasonable step is? Is it a reasonable step if that iwi-M\u0101ori partnership board turns around and says to Health New Zealand, \u201CThis isn\u2019t working.\u201D\u2014and guess what! That\u2019s what they\u2019re going to say, because that\u2019s been the case for decades, and the whole reason that we created Te Aka Whai Ora was so that there was a more direct line. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ESo, again, I say that we\u2019ve got the Minister and his advisory committee, we\u2019ve got Health New Zealand, and we\u2019ve got the iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards. At every level, I would say to the Minister he is weakening those relationships. So I\u2019d ask him to tell us what it means to take reasonable steps to support those, and whether or not the engagement \u201Cwith iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards when determining priorities for kaupapa M\u0101ori investment\u201D, which is the new section 15(b) in here\u2014does that mean that those iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards will have some control and some say, or is this just window dressing, because I have to be honest with the Minister that that\u2019s what it looks like. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ESo, for me, there are three sets of questions in there. The first is around where that M\u0101ori health advisory committee will get its advice from and how it will advise the Minister, then picking up Mr Henare\u2019s question about the Health New Zealand board and how that will have proper representation for M\u0101ori, and how iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards will actually be able to fulfil the role that they\u2019re given in the Act when I think what we see here is a significant weakening of the language. I\u2019d like the Minister\u2019s response on all three of those matters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022 data-id=\u0022c3182e222ba74e2b890b739243e980ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c3182e222ba74e2b890b739243e980ff\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E We live in unprecedented times in Aotearoa New Zealand tonight. Why do I say that it\u2019s unprecedented? Because this Government has deliberately introduced this legislation, knowing full well that it would restrict the jurisdiction of the Waitangi Tribunal to hear the urgent claims into the disestablishment of Te Aka Whai Ora this Thursday and Friday. At no other time have we seen this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EI would like to ask the Minister, what advice did he receive? Knowing that the date was set for the urgent hearings, what advice did he receive from his officials on the urgent hearing and the impact that introducing this legislation today would have on the jurisdiction of the Waitangi Tribunal? We were advised at 6 o\u2019clock tonight from the Waitangi Tribunal that its jurisdiction to hold the urgent inquiry on Thursday and Friday, as scheduled, is now vacated. So the question to the Minister is: what information and advice did he receive, knowing this was no surprises? We knew that urgency was happening. Our people, te Iwi M\u0101ori, need to know how did he make his decision to introduce the legislation tonight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EFurther, we\u2019re wanting to examine the capacity and capability of Te Aka Whai Ora to understand kaupapa M\u0101ori services, cultural safety, and responsiveness of services to improve M\u0101ori health outcomes. It\u2019s a kupu t\u0101piri\u2014it\u2019s a little bit along the lines of what Peeni Henare has said\u2014but I do want to share and I do raise the concerns that I did raise earlier in my previous speech that having two M\u0101ori voices on the current Te Aka Whai Ora board is only a few out of the seven. Then, with the disestablishment of Te Aka Whai Ora, our whaea Tipa Mahuta will lose that position, and we are left with one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003ETherefore, some of the tasks of Te Whatu Ora require that there needs to be engagement with te Iwi M\u0101ori and there needs to be capacity to work with our iwi-M\u0101ori partnership board, and so there\u2019s two levels of engagement that I\u2019m asking for the Minister to provide a response on. Does he believe that the Te Whatu Ora board in its current capacity has the ability to engage both with iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards and te Iwi M\u0101ori wh\u0101nui, and what are his plans to fill those gaps? Is he going to expand the board table? Will he recruit more talent, knowing that we have talent across the M\u0101ori health sector\u2014as we\u2019ve heard from previous speakers\u2014that could come on board to help power up this new, mainstream waka of ours that will be the rongo\u0101 for te Iwi M\u0101ori health issues? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EIn closing, I want to share Kahurangi Tureiti Moxon\u2019s feedback on breakfast TV this morning, where she said that the existence of the M\u0101ori Health Authority gave us some semblance of control and that we could do what was right for us, but, instead, here we are, being plonked back in a system where we started, and right back into a system that doesn\u2019t really work for M\u0101ori. She added that she doesn\u2019t believe that it will work for te Iwi M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s the challenge for our Minister and for the Government: how will this model\u2014or, actually, we don\u2019t have the plan; all we know is k\u0101ore k\u0101ore. What is the plan, and can you give us assurance that we will see the plan as te Iwi M\u0101ori and have the ability to help input into what is the new waka hauora for us? Kia ora. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u0022e99f7b32a5c2425989ee77974a41b165\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e99f7b32a5c2425989ee77974a41b165\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and I thank the members for their questions. I\u2019d like to start with a set of questions from a member before the dinner break, raising the question that, as far as could be seen, the only focus around the amendments to section 6 in clause 6 was with the Hauora M\u0101ori Advisory Committee (HMAC). This isn\u2019t correct. I\u2019ve already identified in previous replies three functions that demonstrate obligations under section 6: (1) HMAC will be one representation of the M\u0101ori voice; (2) health service monitoring and decision making by iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards (IMPBs)\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223baaf5410a0c4f7fa1937f3df98ddb3e\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, what was that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229124b8a17ef468c96b4a95b01df1c1e\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and (3) delivery of services as close to the home and the hap\u016B as possible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d325b2d00264f8dbe86b4bb4f24b1dd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Excuse me, we\u2019ve just got a question. Could you just\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b7ef4503316432185387399a1c826cb\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, could you just repeat that? I didn\u2019t hear your \u201Cone\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278bb36675f1a4c55b53cb6bfe7a9775d\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, yeah\u2014sure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3ffbc41ca774a9d8c6004635f46326e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022281ec5f94d504a1e9e3e83421f841af2\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI\u003C/span\u003E: I have already identified in previous responses three ways that obligations under section 6 will be met: (1) HMAC will be one representation of the M\u0101ori voice; (2) health service monitoring and decision making by IMPBs; and (3) the intent of delivering services as close to the home and the hap\u016B as possible. So to suggest that the response to section 6 is just HMAC is clearly flawed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EIf the member is also worried\u2014and it\u2019s come up in questions from two previous speakers also\u2014around the proposed appointment process to HMAC, again, that has been the appointment process, and it is the appointment process today. It has been for the last two years. It was created by this Government, and there\u2019s nothing different to that. It was due to change on 1 July 2024, but it is the current process, so I don\u2019t think that really stands up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EA member more recently raised the question under clause 8 about the M\u0101ori Health Authority and appointments\u2014and, indeed, the last member did also\u2014to Health New Zealand. Several things here: first of all, I believe this is an \u201Cand and\u201D between skills-based and representation. I would point you to one of the M\u0101ori members on the Health New Zealand board already: Dr Curtis Walker, who clearly is skills-based and brings representation. So it is my intention to have that as an \u201Cand and\u201D on the Health New Zealand board. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EOn new section 16A in clause 13, the question was raised as to when is reporting back \u201Cfrom time to time\u201D and what does that mean. At the present time, metrics are currently reported quarterly, and this is a feature of the ability of Health Quality and Safety Commission and others to provide robust data. So I would anticipate at this point that quarterly reporting will continue, and we\u2019ll say more about that when we bring our targets forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EThe Hon Grant Robertson also raised the amendments to section 6, and was the third member to review the material we\u2019ve already discussed. The only extra point I would add in\u2014and it\u2019s not \u201Cextra\u201D because I mentioned it before the break anyway\u2014is that, yes, I do envisage the Hauora M\u0101ori Advisory Committee to be proactive, as I mentioned in a previous call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve already discussed Health New Zealand\u2019s M\u0101ori representation. New section 15 in clause 11, Health New Zealand providing information to iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards\u2014again, before the break, it was raised. Well, there\u2019s a different capacity for iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards\u2014and that\u2019s absolutely correct\u2014and until we can power them all up, there will be some who need corporate services. Well, clearly, there\u2019s going to need to be information passed back to IMPBs, and that would seem to be self-evident. Furthermore, when they are powered up to be able to do more analysis and reporting, for them to be able to see where they sit in the context of a national measure is likely to be really helpful. So, again, Health New Zealand will be passing information back to the IMPBs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00224fe3ea7ec6da470897e42274985caa59\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224fe3ea7ec6da470897e42274985caa59\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Madam Chair. Thank you for that. Look, I don\u2019t usually speak on health bills, but there are aspects of this bill which I would really appreciate it if the Minister could elucidate. There are, essentially, only two aspects to my question. It strikes me that pae ora\u2014the original objective\u2014was really to give some self-determination around health delivery for M\u0101ori consistent with Treaty obligations, and, in particular, the idea or the concept of rangatiratanga in respect of health delivery. We\u2019ve been talking, and I\u2019ve heard my colleagues talk about representation and voice and consultation. I guess my question is this: if the Minister agrees that Te Tiriti is a partnership where we should be giving as much self-determination to M\u0101ori as is possible, then what is the rationale for the retreat from that here?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EWe give self-determination in the delivery of Government services in many areas, and kaupapa M\u0101ori schools are a really good example of that, where they are designed in a te ao M\u0101ori way and delivered in a te ao M\u0101ori way. They have fantastic outcomes\u2014we know that. Why is that in this critical area of health delivery, we are retreating from the delivery of health services to M\u0101ori in a way which M\u0101ori have self-determination over how that is delivered? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIf the answer is \u201CWe\u2019re not retreating from that.\u201D, how is it that we are respecting the right of self-determination\u2014of rangatiratanga\u2014in this domain when all of the amendments that I\u2019m reading talk about seats on boards, seats around the table, and not a table of their of their own? Given that this is a massive retreat from self-determination of delivery of health services, and that you\u2019re saying to M\u0101ori that \u201CNo, I don\u2019t trust you to deliver\u201D\u2014effectively\u2014\u201Chealth services. I think this is a bloated bureaucracy.\u201D and that having by M\u0101ori, for M\u0101ori in health is nothing more than having a bloated bureaucracy, what have you done to talk to M\u0101ori about that retreat? Whom amongst iwi and hap\u016B have you spoken to? What is the view of M\u0101ori of your decision? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIf the answer to that is \u201CThat\u2019s the election.\u201D, then I would put to you that that\u2019s not satisfactory and that we must engage with M\u0101ori whenever we change the law in a way which directly affects M\u0101ori. There can be no more substantial change than taking the autonomous delivery of health services away from M\u0101ori. So I\u2019d appreciate it, Minister, if you could answer those two questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022 data-id=\u002263a41a980b784c999dbec08e5b7d7f6e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263a41a980b784c999dbec08e5b7d7f6e\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Hauraki-Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te P\u012Bka, otir\u0101 t\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 t\u0101tou e te Whare. E t\u016B ana ahau hei waha i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero m\u014D Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori m\u014D t\u0113nei pire o Te Aka Whai Ora. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E[Thank you, Mr Speaker; indeed greetings to all of us of this House. I stand to give voice to the statements of Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori for this bill on Te Aka Whai Ora.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EI\u2019m going to be talking on \u201C(a), (b), (c), (d), A, E, I, O, U, (1), (2), (3), (4), (5)\u201D, because, basically, this whole bill, in itself, knowing that we are taking a M\u0101ori Health Authority amendment bill rushing through urgency, is a complete breach of Te Tiriti o Waitangi in its full context, and even looking at this bill, with only a couple of hours to look at it, I see that \u201Cm\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori\u201D has been axed and replaced with \u201Ccultural safety\u201D. Now, that is a huge concern, knowing that this coalition Government has no rules or regulations or complete conscious awareness of what cultural safety actually is, with their 100-day coalition plan. Knowing that they are going to replace m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori\u2014well, what is the plan? What is the strategy? What does that mean, by taking out m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori\u2014is that the \u201CTohunga Suppression Act 2.0\u201D? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EAlso, bringing in Peeni Henare\u2019s amendment to new section 15 in clause 11, of a targeted approach\u2014now, why I\u2019m looking at that is because M\u0101ori have a completely different way in the way that we engage, we interact, and we service our health and our different perspective on life in a te ao M\u0101ori context world view, and that\u2019s even looking at bringing up Wai 262 and the way that we bring in M\u0101ori data sovereignty. So that is a huge concern in this amendment bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EI want to ask the Minister of Health what are the different strategies that he is proposing to deliver on M\u0101ori health outcomes, knowing that us, in Waikato\u2014we have been proposing strategies for decades. Even if we look at Princess Te Puia H\u0113rangi in 1930, which is when she wanted the aspiration and goals to establish a Ma\u014Dri hospital at M\u0101hinerangi in T\u016Brangawaewae House. We are now in 2024, and we\u2014her mokopuna\u2014are still fighting for those exact aspirations and dreams. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003ETe Aka Whai Ora was a step to that realisation, and I\u2019m also standing here. I could not not stand up, purely because I am a mokopuna of the original claimants in the Ma\u014Dri health claim, Wai 2575, and also Wai 3307. Actually, the Wai 3307 claim was tabled in 2005, when I was only two years old, and, actually, my grandparents were the ones who tabled this health claim. I want to ask the Minister why has he not had consultation with these original claimants like Tureiti Moxon, Taitimu Maipi, and the many different m\u0101tanga and experts in this field, knowing that they\u2019ve given decades upon decades of work to the establishment of a M\u0101ori Health Authority but also, as a larger context, looking at the mahi and blood, sweat, and tears that they have done in terms of the Wai health claims, bringing that forward to a Waitangi Tribunal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EAlso, knowing that we do have the strategies, it\u2019s ironic that members across keep shouting that M\u0101ori need to retain their self-responsibility. Well, that\u2019s exactly what we want to do. That is actually tino rangatiratanga. It is self-responsibility. We want to have self-responsibility over our health, over our data sovereignty, and over our outcomes, but we can\u2019t because the Crown is in charge of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EYeah, I\u2019m looking at the time\u2014oh, e \u0101hei ana au\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a151a15409974691b6e53fc8423c2de1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, keep going\u2014keep going.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c9581cc81ef4f11b57cd7e41d272bc9\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE\u003C/span\u003E: OK, thank you\u2014cool. Also, looking at the way that we want to have self-responsibility over our tino rangatiratanga for our health and outcome deliverables\u2014for example, my grandmother, actually, and Ramari and also other r\u016Bruhi within our community such as manu Tutata Matatahi, who were the first ever M\u0101ori community health workers on their own marae. We have the strategies in place. Those were our grandparents, and now we can\u2019t come to a third generation, where we are\u2014Madam Chair, can I take this second call?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226026ea8d385149ffbd04690ff943889b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Hana-Rawhiti Maipi-Clarke, you may. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3ea2d7db18d4f0ca45ad014db9e75d8\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE\u003C/span\u003E: Cool\u2014ng\u0101 mihi nui ki a koe. Also, if we look at the mahi that whaea Tipa Mahuta has done and if we look at the, I guess, layer of colonisation that has affected us specifically in Waikato-Tainui with the Raupatu settlement claim, I quote from Sir Governor Grey. In 1863, he actually said that M\u0101ori\u2014he had never seen such healthy kids anywhere else in the world other than in Waikato, and such fertile land. In 1863, Sir Governor Grey said that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EOur job as K\u012Bngitanga, our job as an iwi, our job as a post-settlement iwi, our job as Wai claimants, and our job as third-generation mokopuna is to make that we peel back those layers of decolonisation. So I want to ask the Minister what he is going to do to make sure that we are shredding those layers, because us, as M\u0101ori, looking at in a M\u0101ori context, world-lens view, we don\u2019t just look at the physical outcome of health but\u2014like what T\u0101 Mason Durie has done in his amazing mahi\u2014we are actually looking at a Whare Tapa Wh\u0101, a complete holistic awareness of a Whare Tapa Wh\u0101 approach. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003ESo, yep, that\u2019s what I have to say, and if this Government keeps saying we\u2019re woke, they must be asleep. E oho ana t\u0101tou, e moe ana koutou. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E[We are awake, you are asleep.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003ENg\u0101 mihi ki a koutou. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u0022b80c3ba3ba6a4aab93f0b95ae42226b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b80c3ba3ba6a4aab93f0b95ae42226b0\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and I thank the Minister for his brief answers that didn\u2019t give any detail to the questions that I asked. I\u2019m going to ask some few questions, for fear of repetition or him saying that he\u2019s already answered these things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI spoke to the amendments to section 6, in clause 6, which are the key amendments to disestablishing Te Aka Whai Ora. I spoke to how section 6 actually outlines how the Crown will meet its obligations under the principles of Te Tiriti o Waitangi by establishing Te Aka Whai Ora and its roles and functions, and I asked the Minister if now the\u2014what are you calling it? HMAC, the Hauora M\u0101ori Advisory Committee\u2014that\u2019s what I couldn\u2019t understand from your answer. HMAC is now going to be the answer to the way in which the Crown is going to fulfil its obligations to meet the principles of Te Tiriti o Waitangi. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EWhat I wanted to ask the Minister, though, is: when you look at the current legislation, there are words in there that are very strong directives and obligations on the Government and on the various organisations and agencies in here. They use words like \u201Crequire\u201D: \u201Crequires the Minister to have regard to any advice of the M\u0101ori Health Authority when determining a \u2026 strategy; \u2026 requires the Hauora M\u0101ori Strategy to be jointly prepared \u2026 provides for iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards to enable M\u0101ori to have a meaningful role in the planning and design of local services; and \u2026 requires the Government Policy Statement to contain priorities for hauora M\u0101ori; and \u2026 requires Health New Zealand and the M\u0101ori Health Authority to engage with iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards; \u2026 requires Health New Zealand and the M\u0101ori Health Authority to jointly develop and implement a \u2026 Health Plan and to work together in the performance of specified functions\u201D, and so on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EThat is very strong language legislated for, and a \u201Crequire\u201D is that you must do it; not that you can choose to do it. We\u2019ve had decisions like the King Salmon case, for example. When legislation has words like that in it, the Government is required to follow that. What the Minister is proposing is new section 15, for example, which will require the health authority to\u2014what? To \u201Ctake reasonable steps to support iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards to achieve their purpose\u201D and \u201Cengage with iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards when determining priorities for kaupapa M\u0101ori investment.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori need certainty. They went from having mana-enhancing provisions\u2014a partnership approach to their healthcare, to their strategy, to the priorities, and to what\u2019s going in the Government policy statement\u2014to now having in the legislation words like the Minister will take \u201Creasonable steps\u201D. What are \u201Creasonable steps\u201D? Can you define it? Can you tell us and can you tell those that are listening tonight\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022018335653dd14ad0bc0531dcd27b122d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CCan \u2018the Minister\u2019 define\u201D, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f8b55f8b27f477d96fb9d2fe19876e4\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister please tell those in the committee and those that are listening tonight what they can expect in terms of \u201Creasonable steps to support iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards to achieve their purpose\u201D? Can you please tell us what \u201Cengage with iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards when determining priorities for kaupapa M\u0101ori investment.\u201D actually looks like? Where are the details on how this is going to be given effect to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EYou said, Minister\u2014sorry, Madam Speaker. The Minister said that having iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards is mana motuhake. Can you please define \u201Cmana motuhake\u201D for me, and how your board, set up under a piece of Crown legislation, is actually mana motuhake? Please give me the tikanga definition of \u201Cmana motuhake\u201D and how your iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards are going to be giving mana motuhake to our hap\u016B and our iwi. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI also have questions around the functions of the iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards and the amendments proposed to remove the functions of agreeing to locality plans, and nominating members to the Hauora M\u0101ori Advisory Committee. Now, the Minister has stood up in the committee tonight and said that the process is exactly the same for the appointment of HMAC. No, it\u2019s not. It\u2019s very clear, when you read your tabled amendments, that the Minister is actually changing that process and that there was a role for the iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards in that and there was a role from\u2014and it flows on, so into the Hauora M\u0101ori Advisory Committee and into Te Aka Whai Ora. So the Minister is not correct when he is saying that the process has not changed at all and that it\u2019s the same that was in there before. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister is: what weight will he give those priorities that are developed through clause 15, because what is the point of engaging with M\u0101ori\u2014you know, you\u2019re saying you\u2019re going to do it through the iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards and you\u2019re saying you\u2019re going to do it through Hauora M\u0101ori Advisory Committee. But what weight are you actually going to give to those priorities, because what I would argue is that what was in the legislation that you are changing and disestablishing were far more requirements to work in partnership to develop the health strategies, the plans, the objectives, the Government policy statement, and so on. So I want to know what weight the Minister will give to the priorities that come out of this process, or will it just be a box-ticking exercise and lip service? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EAlso, there\u2019s no dispute resolution process in here. But I do want to take the opportunity to turn to clauses 23, 25, 29, and 30, because what concerns me is that these are the consequential amendments. So, for example, clause 23 amends section 50, which relates to the development of a New Zealand Health Plan, and what it says is: \u201CThe effect of the amendment is that the plan will be developed solely by Health New Zealand.\u201D\u2014right. Clause 25 amends section 52, which relates to the preparation of the annual performance report: \u201CThe effect of the amendment is that Health New Zealand will be solely responsible for preparing the annual performance report.\u201D Clause 29 amends section 57, which relates to the making of the New Zealand Health Charter: \u201CThe effect of the amendment is that Health New Zealand will be solely responsible for facilitating the making of the charter.\u201D Clause 30 amends section 58 by removing the reference to the M\u0101ori Health Authority: \u201CThe effect of the amendment is that Health New Zealand will be solely responsible for reporting on the charter.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EHow can M\u0101ori have confidence when such significant changes are being made to the way in which our health system is going to operate that their voice is going to be reduced to a Hauora M\u0101ori Advisory Committee whom, it says here, the Minister can request information from. It doesn\u2019t even embed their functions. It doesn\u2019t give it any level of priority in his decision making. What confidence can M\u0101ori have? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EIn these changes that the Minister is making, he hasn\u2019t given any real detail on them. He has not defined \u201Creasonable steps\u201D, he has not defined what \u201Cactual engagement\u201D looks like, and he has not defined what the systems for engaging are going to be. He has not defined the functions of the iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards. He\u2019s pushed out for five years the localities planning, which is kind of an important part of how you\u2019re going to have a bottom-up approach to the delivery of health services and how our communities are able, through that process, to identify what their needs and aspirations are\u2014which you say you want to deliver on, but, actually, you have no mechanisms to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ESo those are my questions to the Minister. Can he please provide us with some detailed answers, because everybody is desperately wanting to hear how he\u2019s going to deliver on his vision with his proposed changes here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u00226008335d09d946068dcb83edfe89ea3e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226008335d09d946068dcb83edfe89ea3e\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019ll respond to some of the questions. From the member over here regarding timing, this has been well flagged through our 100-day commitments. I\u2019d also comment that the tribunal\u2014once the legislation has been enabled\u2014is still able to critique it, and that is the understanding that I have had, and we wanted to provide some surety to the staff at the M\u0101ori Health Authority so that they knew what the plan was. So we did want to move with some degree of timeliness. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EIt was also commented\u2014and I\u2019ve already mentioned it before\u2014about the skills base and representation to the Health New Zealand board. The member that was over here raised the question of whether there was actually a reduction in autonomy; I don\u2019t think that\u2019s the case, because what we\u2019ve said is that M\u0101ori will be involved in monitoring, delivery, and decision making at local levels. So I don\u2019t accept there will be any reduction in autonomy, and he also asked about whom discussions had been had with. I\u2019d already said that we\u2019d met on or around 6 December with iwi-M\u0101ori partnership board chairs, but if they want to have further discussions, start with Tuwharetoa, and ask how the consultation has been with them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EThe member down over here asked the questions about M\u0101ori health outcomes and how are we actually going to do that. Several things: first of all, health workforce are going to be pre-eminent. It\u2019s really a common pathway to challenges we have in the health system at the moment. So health workforce will be important, targets will be important, and we have to give people the tools to do the jobs, so that talks to infrastructure. So those are three key ways that we are going to improve M\u0101ori health outcomes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve had discussions with New Zealanders over many years\u2014in fact, since the M\u0101ori Health Authority was first described. I recall, that afternoon, going into public domain, and there have been many, many discussions over what now must be about three years. There is nothing new here tonight about the discussions. The M\u0101ori frameworks of health\u2014yep, the Te Whare Tapa Wh\u0101 o Te Wheke, which I think Rose constructed. What I would say here is that we totally believe and I believe in cultural competency and the M\u0101ori health frameworks that support that. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022 data-id=\u00224d66563c9e70496fa422a188439b451b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d66563c9e70496fa422a188439b451b\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I have a question, first of all, to clarify, following on from my colleague. I wasn\u2019t clear with the Minister of Health\u2019s answer regarding the Waitangi Tribunal and the timing. Is it accidental that this is being rammed through in urgency two days before, or is it deliberate? That\u2019s my first question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003ESecondly, given the coalition Government\u2019s support for localism, at least in theory, the Minister seems to have such severe doubts about localism in this area that it\u2019s going to take five years to introduce localities. So how will that provide services\u2014I think I quote\u2014\u201Cas close as possible to M\u0101ori hap\u016B\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003EMoving on to a comment, I\u2019d like to know whether the Minister agrees with a member of his own caucus that seemed to direct the health deficit for M\u0101ori to their own fault. If that\u2019s not victim blaming, I\u2019m not sure what is. Does the Minister think that it\u2019s M\u0101ori\u2019s fault that they languish as a result of socio-economic deficit, that they tend to live far away from the centres of walkable cities and towns, that their socio-economic status means that they are not able to buy healthier food and that milk remains a lot more expensive than fizzy rubbish, despite the wonderful farmers that provide us with it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003EThen, finally, how much worse is M\u0101ori health going to get over those five years\u2014and I think it might be unlikely that he will still be the Minister of Health in 2029. How much worse is the health deficit going to get? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00226da88a240458439daec40a52fb1f5eb1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226da88a240458439daec40a52fb1f5eb1\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I\u2019m very pleased to have an opportunity\u2014my first chance, actually\u2014to be able to contribute to this committee of the whole House stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve taken close attention to the debate. I was watching before the dinner break and have been here since the start of the dinner break. And, since it is my first opportunity to contribute, I think it\u2019s pretty important that it is noted in the Hansard how disgraceful I think this bill is. It\u2019s very clear, I think, to anybody that looks at the stats for M\u0101ori across Aotearoa that the health system as it\u2019s stood has not delivered\u2014that, with health stats and life expectancy, it hasn\u2019t worked, for whatever reason. But there was a very clear message that the country got during COVID that a delivery model that was delivered by M\u0101ori and designed by M\u0101ori was effective. So, in establishing the M\u0101ori Health Authority, there was actually something in place to deliver the things that the Minister has promised the committee are his priorities here tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ENow, there\u2019s one thing that sticks in my mind\u2014before I get to my question\u2014and it\u2019s that, as many members who have been here a while know, our rural communities are particularly important to me, and therefore so too is the equitable access to health. I, alongside some of my colleagues, played a pivotal role in ensuring that the requirement for a rural health strategy was included in the legislation that set up the reformed health system, and I\u2019m incredibly proud of that, because we recognise that those that live in isolated and remote areas simply do not have the same level of access to health. The same rationale applies here, and I cannot help but think that if this were an Act that had established a rural health authority, would this Government be repealing it? You\u2019ve gone pretty quiet now, Joseph Mooney. The fact is they wouldn\u2019t, because rural people vote for this Government, and M\u0101ori people don\u2019t, and the National Party is like a river: it takes the path of least resistance. When it comes to talking about any issue that requires or that establishes something that focuses solely on M\u0101ori, instead of taking leadership they took the easiest path, and that is reflected in this repeal bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThe question that I have is specific to clause 35. It is looking at replacing section 89 with three parts outlining the Hauora M\u0101ori Advisory Committee. It says here in new section 89(2) that \u201CThe committee comprises 8 members appointed by the Minister after consulting the Minister for M\u0101ori Development.\u201D At what point does this outline that the people who are going to be on this committee are going to be able to deliver the same level of expertise and insight that the M\u0101ori Health Authority did? If the Minister truly believes\u2014as he has outlined on a couple of occasions; not all occasions, but on a couple of occasions in his contribution during this stage\u2014that he feels that what he is outlining is going to deliver better, what protections are in this clause? What protections in clause 35 of this bill would stop a future Government imposing eight members that know nothing about M\u0101ori? They might not even be M\u0101ori. There are no protections in this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ENow, the Minister may say that the selection criteria is exactly the same as it has been. When you\u2019re talking about a M\u0101ori Health Authority that clearly outlines the requirements and the expertise that is required for the people that are involved in the decisions and the advice that are provided, it\u2019s pretty clear cut. We\u2019re not now. This Government is getting rid of this. We have a committee to advise the Minister when he requests it. Now, the Minister may be offended by this suggestion that he wouldn\u2019t select people, but what\u2019s protecting future Ministers? What is protecting a future political party, campaigning on the basis of identifying that there is some unease in the community about this idea that there\u2019s something specific to M\u0101ori. In the future, it is entirely possible that a political party might find that it is in their interests to campaign against something that focuses just on M\u0101ori\u2014even though deep down they may or may not know that it is the right thing to do\u2014and get elected on that basis. What is to protect a future Minister from stacking this committee\u2014to try and demonstrate a M\u0101ori-specific focus to health, which I assume is the intent of this committee\u2014with people that will undermine it because they don\u2019t have the expertise that\u2019s required to deliver the purpose of this, and then stand up and say, \u201CSee, it doesn\u2019t work.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ENow, I repeat, I\u2019m not suggesting at all that this Minister\u2014who I believe is a man of integrity; I fundamentally oppose what he is doing here. But what is to stop a future Minister doing that? Three simple sentences here; they just simply talk about the number and a very brief requirement that they consult another Minister, but there\u2019s no protection. I think the committee deserves to know an answer to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022751cdca901c24d61b4233c1729b65459\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022751cdca901c24d61b4233c1729b65459\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Just before I call the Hon Peeni Henare, I just want to say that we are still getting some new questions about some new clauses and we are under urgency, and as long as I keep hearing new clause numbers and questions that are new questions, we can allow a little bit more time for this debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u00221b1f4c7f5d0142b4bd46abf996f83364\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b1f4c7f5d0142b4bd46abf996f83364\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Members on the other side of the Chamber seem a little glum this late in the evening, so I\u2019m going to start my question by quoting that well-known M\u0101ori fellow by the name of Billy T James. What he says is, \u201CWhen you put Kiwis in the room, you put two of them in the corner and they\u2019re bound to make a separate committee.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ENow, why do I say that? That\u2019s because one of the parts in clause 17, which looks to repeal subpart 5 of Part 2, which is dispute resolution\u2014now, that\u2019s really important, because we\u2019re not always going to agree, and I accept that the Government has already made their intentions clear with respect to the M\u0101ori Health Authority. But where, throughout this entire system, is there an opportunity to resolve issues where we do not agree? That\u2019s just a fact of politics; that\u2019s a fact of life. In that particular part that\u2019s being repealed, there are separate provisions there that instruct the Minister of Health to also consult with the Minister for M\u0101ori Development. I\u2019m looking for reassurances from this Minister: is that still his intention, to include the Minister for M\u0101ori Development in the decision making and the process around dispute resolution?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe part that\u2019s being repealed here also recommends that the Minister of Health also discuss these matters with the Minister for Te Arawhiti. That\u2019s really important, because what we\u2019ve found, and certainly in our time as Government\u2014and this Government\u2019s finding out at the moment\u2014is that dispute resolution is really important, especially when we\u2019re talking about large bodies who have opportunities to be able to influence, in this case, health policy, who do not agree. The question is quite clear to the Minister, who\u2019s looking to just simply scrap any dispute resolution process here: what is the Minister going to do when there is clearly a dispute\u2014one between, let\u2019s say, the Hauora M\u0101ori Advisory Committee and Health New Zealand; let\u2019s say an iwi-M\u0101ori partnership board and Health New Zealand; let\u2019s say an iwi-M\u0101ori partnership board and its locality leadership? There are questions here; there are matters here that not everybody\u2019s going to agree on. So we\u2019re looking for assurances from the Minister that dispute resolution mechanisms will continue to remain there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve already mentioned the Minister for M\u0101ori Development and the Minister for Te Arawhiti. They play important roles in making sure that the Minister himself gets the support he needs to make sure that, as we work through a dispute resolution process, all voices are being heard fairly, the arbitration process is going to be heard fairly, or is the Minister suggesting to everybody, with this particular bill, that he\u2019s going to play God on the matter, that it\u2019s entirely up to him on how the dispute is resolved, or his decision is the final say, and he\u2019ll play judge, jury, and executioner? I think that\u2019s completely dangerous and against the democracy that our countrymen, our fellow Kiwis, expect from this particular institution. That\u2019s really important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ESo, if the Minister of Health is, as I\u2019ve mentioned, going to be the final decision-maker on any dispute resolution process, how then do M\u0101ori actually find their voice in that particular process? Is it through the tribunal? Well, we\u2019ve heard that that\u2019s not going to be the case. Is it that they make an appointment with the Minister directly? Well, what we\u2019ve seen is the Minister\u2019s willingness to speak to more and more people and to engage with far more M\u0101ori about matters relating to health in general and M\u0101ori health in particular. So do they need to make an appointment? Are they able to discuss these matters directly with the Minister, or is it simply waiting for the opportunity for the Minister and the Government to front up to the iwi chairs, where the iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards, for example, are able to prosecute their particular dispute with whatever body the Minister has in charge of Health New Zealand? These are important fundamental questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EAs I said, as Kiwis we won\u2019t always agree, but it is important that there are strong mechanisms. Given that the Minister\u2019s repealing this, we want to seek a surety from the Minister that there will be mechanisms to resolve these disputes, that he will continue to seek the support and counsel of his colleagues, namely the Minister for M\u0101ori Development and, of course, the Minister for Te Arawhiti, and, indeed, even further colleagues across his Cabinet. That\u2019s going to be really important, and I look forward to hearing the Minister on those questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u00225bf129c08a7c4a4f82a18f09b7bca597\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225bf129c08a7c4a4f82a18f09b7bca597\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, for taking further questions related to the removal of M\u0101ori voice from the health system in this bill. My colleagues have already made a number of points about the ways in which that is occurring, but I have two that I believe have not been canvassed. So we\u2019ve already heard about the loss of iwi-M\u0101ori partnership board (IMPB) ability to approve locality plans. We\u2019ve seen them lose the ability to appoint to the Hauora M\u0101ori Advisory Committee\u2014lose control over who is representing them in the system. That now goes to the Minister. We have been told that it is not the fact that that is the case in the current legislation; that was a transitional provision. We\u2019ve also seen that the role for Te Aka Whai Ora in drafting the Government Policy Statement is gone, and the right for Te Aka Whai Ora to directly advise the Minister is also gone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EI want to ask two particular questions. The first relates to clause 6(3), which is the advice on the New Zealand Health Plan. Can the Minister clarify if the IMPBs will be involved in giving advice on the New Zealand Health Plan, because otherwise there is no input from the local level into what is a key instrument in the health system. In fact, I often say that the main feature of the health reforms was to enable long-term planning for the health system, and that New Zealand Health Plan is an incredibly important document for shaping the future of the health system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EThe second thing I want to ask relates to clause 15, which is the requirement for Health New Zealand to support and engage with iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards. Given that his words dictate what must occur in practice, I\u2019d like the Minister to define what he means by \u201Csupport and engage\u201D. To me, \u201Csupport\u201D sounds a little bit paternalistic, and I\u2019m particularly interested in understanding how \u201Csupport and engage\u201D fulfils the Government\u2019s requirement to work with iwi in partnership under Te Tiriti. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00225079561e31a0404f86703c663892fb6a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225079561e31a0404f86703c663892fb6a\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I want to add to the list of questions on a section that I don\u2019t believe has had any substantive debate and, in particular, an amendment in the name of my colleague Arena Williams, which I know has not had any debate at this time. That is clause 18 of the bill, which covers section 33 of the original Act. Now, for the most part, what Part 1 of this bill does is simply remove references to the M\u0101ori Health Authority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220dbeab19e6ae4f669df363fd2ef5f600\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s 15.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cf8d751d85b4bb896c5f5957a91d973\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, 15\u201418, section 18. Clause 18, in fact, if we\u2019re being specific. Clause 18, which is amending section 33 of the original Act. For the most part, we\u2019ve got a bill that removes references to the M\u0101ori Health Authority or the Health Authority. What clause 18\u2014and, in particular, clause 18(2)\u2014does, however, is replace section 33(1)(d) of the Act, the Pae Ora Act, which currently says, \u201CHealth New Zealand, the M\u0101ori Health Authority, and relevant iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards to agree to locality plans for localities:\u201D. But unlike most of the other clauses, this one ditches the iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards from their role in approving the locality plans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EMy question for the Minister is: how is he going to ensure that the voice of hap\u016B and iwi at the local level is protected in the creation of locality plans? Because that is the very point of their existence. So I get it; the Government is disestablishing the M\u0101ori Health Authority, and they want to take all the references to the M\u0101ori Health Authority out of the original Act. I disagree with that strongly. But, now, we\u2019re altering the role of iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards here. This is going much further\u2014and illogically much further\u2014because the iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards were to be that very linkage at the local level when the locality plans are being developed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESo my colleague Arena Williams has proposed changes here, in particular in clause 18(2): after the word \u201Clocality\u201D, insert the phrase \u201Cbased on the advice of the relevant iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards.\u201D So the Minister might like to tell us if it was a mistake. It is possible it was a mistake, but I don\u2019t think it was. I think it was an intentional move, and I think the Minister should explain to the committee why, in the cause of ridding references to the M\u0101ori Health Authority, we are now ridding reference to the iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards in the development of these locality plans. And by way of explanation\u2014and I know there\u2019s a lot of buzzwords in health that are being used in the Chamber tonight\u2014those locality plans were, and are indeed, absolutely critical to the overall health reform process, in order to make sure that, in creating Health New Zealand, creating a M\u0101ori Health Authority, we give respect to the fact that local communities know the health needs of their communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ENow, that was what lay behind the district health board model; it didn\u2019t work. So we\u2019ve come up with a different model that says \u201Clocality plans\u201D. This clause excludes the group of people who were designed to make sure that we had iwi and hap\u016B voice in the development of the locality plans. I find it extraordinary that a party and a Government who would tell us that they don\u2019t like centralisation and that they want to see things done at a local level would remove the very M\u0101ori voice that has been created. The Minister, in a couple of his contributions, has said he wants the iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards to keep doing their jobs, albeit neutered through the bill that\u2019s in front of us tonight. So that is my question for the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EFirstly, is this an intentional thing to take iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards out of locality planning, which seems completely illogical to me? And, secondly, would he consider Arena Williams\u2019 amendment, which would at least mean that those plans would be based on the advice of relevant iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022 data-id=\u0022f74eed4312874e71ab6eacabbee3f283\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f74eed4312874e71ab6eacabbee3f283\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Again, taking into context that 83 percent of M\u0101ori did not support this coalition, I therefore have some real concerns on assumptions that are made\u2014again, through clauses 11 to 15\u2014from a different perspective. Quoting the Minister earlier and his view on the M\u0101ori-iwi partnerships and the need to power them up, in clauses 11 to 15, if that is indeed the Minister\u2019s view, the question we have is: how long does the Minister believe it will take to power up the iwi partnership boards? How will they be resourced? What sense or lens will the Minister have over the inequities for M\u0101ori as this transitioning is happening, particularly remembering our mana hau\u0101, our tangata whenua in rural areas, our tangata Pasifika?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a lot of emphasis on iwi-M\u0101ori partnerships. Indeed, we heard one iwi tonight that has supposedly endorsed this approach\u2014kei te pai if that\u2019s the case. But there is a lot of emphasis on iwi-M\u0101ori partnerships who have had one-on-one meetings with the Minister who are likely expecting some direct funding and hoping that this model will provide a better resource model than what currently exists. However, if the power-up capacity that the Minister himself referred to is not there, how long will it take the Minister\u2014and, again, what we\u2019re not hearing is what the gap filler is. What strategy is going to be applied during this transition\u2014assuming that the Minister believes this will happen in a linear, coherent way? Knowing M\u0101ori and iwi as well as I do, each will have\u2014and should have\u2014their own authenticity and, indeed, their own right to self-determine the path through that. It\u2019s not clear. If the Minister would, please, share how they intend to monitor this progress, if indeed they are? At the moment, it\u2019s really difficult to find data on the iwi-M\u0101ori partnerships and indeed the locality plans and indeed the successful prototypes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EWhat is the expected outcome? How will the Minister ensure that we will have sight, as communities affected, of those particular outcomes\u2014so, when he sees that a particular partnership hasn\u2019t worked, that there isn\u2019t the resourcing around that? Let\u2019s just take some of the regions that I come from, where there hasn\u2019t been a successful model in the district health board model. They hadn\u2019t gotten up to speed and certainly haven\u2019t had the support and the capacity to get to a \u201Cpowered-up model\u201D\u2014again, I use the Minister\u2019s words, not my words.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s really unclear how we can, as communities most affected, be assured that this would be monitored. It\u2019s really unclear for the rest in Aotearoa, who are taxpayers, who indeed are looking at this being a better model; a better return on investment; a better social return on investment. How is the Minister going to track the success model, given that some of the capacity that\u2019s been committed to this particular model in Te Aka Whai Ora lose their mahi, lose their connection to the very communities that they\u2019ve been building\u2014I guess rapport?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EAlso, what\u2019s really not obvious in this, if we were to go to clause 28\u2014I mean, just bear with me. It says, in clause 28, \u201CSection 55 amended\u201D, which relates to the development of locality plans by Health New Zealand. The amendments remove the requirement for Health New Zealand\u2014I won\u2019t go through the whole thing\u2014to engage and removes the requirement for the relevant iwi-M\u0101ori partnership board to agree to the annual report assessing progress against outcomes in the plan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003ESo it is really, really important that we are not being sold something that has been set up to fail, but, most importantly, that our communities are going to get less of a service, less of a focus on our health inequities. That is our primary objective: that we get clarity from the Minister that there is a guarantee that our people are going to come out with less inequities and a better outcome from this health model.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u0022f876e289c3ca4235a853de79c5d06de1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f876e289c3ca4235a853de79c5d06de1\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019ll reply further to some questions that have arisen, particularly around localities and their relationship with iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards (IMPBs)\u2014several members have raised that. What the legislation does is it pauses Schedule 1, I believe, for the localities planned to be formed. That is because we\u2019re still considering the role and the place, as I said in my first reading, of localities. So that\u2019s quite clear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003ESecond, there were some questions over there around protections, around the composition of the Hauora M\u0101ori Advisory Committee going forward. Look, no one can predict that far into the future what future Governments will do. But I have flagged in my readings, and flagged with our intent, that I absolutely support cultural competence and believe it to be important, and that I\u2019ll seek advice from IMPBs around appointments, and that I also believe that there can be skills-based and representation with the Health New Zealand board. So, as much as we have some view of what\u2019s in front of us here now, I\u2019m offering that support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EDispute resolution has also been raised. And, yes, it is my intention to continue to have engagement with the Minister for M\u0101ori Development and the Minister for M\u0101ori Crown Relations: Te Arawhiti, the Hon Tama Potaka, in dispute processes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EThe member who\u2019s just completed, Debbie Ngarewa-Packer, was talking to something we\u2019ve already touched on: IMPB capacity building. I agree they will need resourcing. They have already been moderately resourced. I absolutely understand that they will need further resourcing, depending where they are on the capacity and competence sort of metrics, if you like\u2014and to help them achieve the functions that they need, I will commit to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb031fe85d76492cb9ce1865f9d2e3fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb031fe85d76492cb9ce1865f9d2e3fd\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. This is my first call, and I wouldn\u2019t normally be here to speak on health issues. I\u2019m a white boy from the deep South.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db7ffbc23b114de78940d76aeab0950d\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Nothing wrong with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022658ded98d00046cf914431ef8b420c62\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Ha! Indeed, yeah. But I\u2019m here to speak for many of those who\u2019ve been denied a voice because of this outrage of urgency to force through a destructive agenda to continue to break rather than make. We really are taking another great leap backwards after so much mahi to create something that will be meaningful. I can speak for tangata Tiriti who care about health for all, who care about addressing the inequities in health.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to hear the Minister of Health clarify New Zealand\u2019s reasonable consultation process that it will use before introducing any employment policy that is reasonably likely to have material impact on that employee. How can it be reasonable when this is done under urgency? I remember I heard a member opposite earlier talk about her pleasure in condemning Te Aka Whai Ora to the scrap heap, and I\u2019m shocked. I\u2019m shocked by the victim blaming I\u2019ve heard from that side of the Chamber, and I want to know what the impact on those employees will be, those employees who will be materially impacted by these changes, done under urgency with no engagement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3830db56ae740f3a202687fb3a489e2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just mention to the member that discussions about employment are in the next part of the bill, so if you\u2019ve got something that pertains to Part 1, then we\u2019d like to hear it. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220a4bb7eaf7e48199139da0f5e5e19b8\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, thank you, Madam Chair. I am concerned that this blitzkrieg of repeals\u2014the disestablishment of Te Aka Whai Ora\u2014is an abuse of urgency that denies voice to those most affected. I want to understand why the Minister is so afraid of the Waitangi Tribunal, and why is the Minister so afraid of the select committee process that would allow people to engage correctly? If there was any good in this, I think the Minister should be willing to allow scrutiny and examination of the proposal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EMr Chair, to the Chair\u2014that switcheroo happened quite quickly; didn\u2019t notice that\u2014I\u2019ve worked for a kaupapa M\u0101ori organisation and I\u2019ve seen the benefit of this holistic approach to health led by M\u0101ori, for M\u0101ori. I\u2019ve worked with M\u0101ori and wh\u0101nau in energy hardship, and what\u2019s clear is that we need that comprehensive approach by M\u0101ori, for M\u0101ori. The one-size-fits-all, with some participation that may be willed by the Minister, is something that is just insulting to what has been created so far. It\u2019s not going to lead to hauora M\u0101ori. It\u2019s more than physical wellbeing; it\u2019s mental and emotional wellbeing, social wellbeing, and spiritual wellbeing. I saw the value as a white boy from the deep South. I saw the value of a kaupapa M\u0101ori approach to health, wrapping support around those other interventions to ensure wellbeing. The ability to join the dots came from a tino rangatiratanga model of delivery, and the beauty of it was that it was M\u0101ori and tangata Tiriti, or non-M\u0101ori, all benefiting from a richer way of doing things, because innovation can become mainstream unless we reject it, unless we take a great leap backwards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EI would like to understand from the Minister why we can\u2019t have a good debate, why we can\u2019t allow the Waitangi Tribunal to open this up, why we can\u2019t allow a select committee to open this up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u00228a8bc1ccdf514e2ca095e2061b9ffd21\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a8bc1ccdf514e2ca095e2061b9ffd21\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I won\u2019t use this to take up any more time in the debate, but I will just note that my question asked prior to the Minister\u2019s last call, to define \u201Cengagement and support\u201D, as in clause 15, has not been answered \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u0022f662b720682245148f164ab1509326f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f662b720682245148f164ab1509326f9\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair\u2014thank you. I appreciate the opportunity to take a call. I do want to note at the start of my call that some of the questions I\u2019m going to ask are quite specific about the legislation, and the reason I\u2019m going to get quite specific about the legislation is that we don\u2019t have the select committee process, and normally these are the types of questions that would actually be asked of officials.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI just want to put on record my concern that I\u2019m not sure if we\u2019re going to be able to get into that level of detail, just because I\u2019ve been listening to some of the Minister\u2019s answers and I\u2019m concerned that we\u2019re not really getting into the detail of the bill. I have got some very specific questions, and they relate back to some of the speeches I\u2019ve observed from Government members earlier today in the debate, and how I have witnessed the M\u0101ori Health Authority operate in my electorate. The specific question I have is: how is that going to change and be continued? And I have some really specific questions about some of the wording in the bill that I really would like some answers on because I\u2019m hearing concerns from my electorate and I have some concerns.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ESo just to give some context, in some of the Government speeches earlier today, including speeches from the Minister, I heard comments that people felt the M\u0101ori Health Authority was a centralised process. I want to give an example from within my own electorate that will just set up and give the context for the questions I\u2019m to ask, because I think that context is really needed. So we have a M\u0101ori health provider across Te Tau Ihu\u2014top of the South Island. It operates across Tasman, Nelson, and Marlborough, and it\u2019s called Te Piki Oranga. They are an excellent, established M\u0101ori health provider, and I\u2019ve taken a number of my colleagues there. I want to mihi to Anne Hobby and her workers there for the mahi that they do in the community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ENow, what Anne and her team have told me is that prior to the establishment of the M\u0101ori Health Authority, they used to receive funding that went from the DHB, through to the primary health organisation (PHO), and then through to them. There was a ticket clipping along the way, and so, essentially, the money comes through the appropriation from health, then to the DHB, then to the PHO, then to Te Piki Oranga to provide M\u0101ori health services. What they have told me\u2014and it\u2019s not clear in the bill how this is going to continue, which is my question that I\u2019m going to get to shortly with the Minister\u2014is that with the establishment of the M\u0101ori Health Authority, they have received funding directly from the centre to their agency. It has not gone through that ticket-clipping exercise, which, having heard members opposite talk about bureaucracy, I just find it quite ironic because we\u2019ve actually stripped away that bureaucracy and got more money to the agency and we\u2019ve got it there faster. So I\u2019m going to get into the questions I have around the bill and how the Minister is going to explain through this legislation how that\u2019s going to continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ESo I understand that clause 15 of the bill amends section 30 to reflect the transfer of certain functions from the M\u0101ori Health Authority to Health New Zealand. So, when I read through that section of the bill\u2014and this is my question to the Minister\u2014in clause 15, where it says section 30 is amended, it talks about in clause 14(4) \u201CIn section 30(1)(f), replace \u201Cthe activities of the M\u0101ori Health Authority\u201D with \u201Cthe hauora M\u0101ori activities of Health New Zealand.\u201D So my specific question is: what are the hauora M\u0101ori activities of Health New Zealand? How do they relate to the funding mechanism from the M\u0101ori Health Authority directly to providers like Te Piki Oranga? What is the operational expectation that the Minister has of how that will function in practice?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThese are really relevant questions, and I again make the point that we don\u2019t have a select committee process. If I was sitting in a select committee process, I\u2019d be able to sit here and bounce back and forth, question back and forth, with officials. I cannot do that, and it\u2019s actually really frustrating, because we have a significant agency that receives funding. I am not clear from this legislation and from leading this part of the legislation\u2014and I don\u2019t even know if this is the correct part of the legislation to read, because we don\u2019t actually have anywhere near enough detail that we would ordinarily be provided at a select committee to be able to even know, \u201CAm I asking about the right section of the Act?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ESo I do expect more than a surface answer from the Minister about, \u201COh, well, we\u2019ll engage with this, that, and the other.\u201D I actually want a specific answer. How will funding to M\u0101ori health providers continue under the legislation that they are putting through urgency tonight? And I am going to come back to it if this question is not answered, because it\u2019s really, really important for my community to know how they are going to continue getting that funding without the ticket-clipping, bureaucratic exercise that we had until the introduction of the M\u0101ori Health Authority. Thank you, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022 data-id=\u00228f2ab8f2dfe34626bc7de8c41280a574\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228f2ab8f2dfe34626bc7de8c41280a574\u0022\u003ESAM UFFINDELL (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022 data-id=\u002287c15a5c6aeb43178cfc3561a8706652\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002287c15a5c6aeb43178cfc3561a8706652\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. He aha te mea nui o te ao? He tangata, he tangata, he tangata. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E[What is the most important thing in this world? It is the people, it is the people, it is the people.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EI just wanted to just open this evening with this whakatauk\u012B because this is the first time I\u2019ve spoken in the Chamber since the death of our colleague Fa\u2019an\u0101n\u0101 Efeso Collins, and I wanted to open with that to acknowledge him but also to highlight it in the committee tonight in the context of this bill, because we know that the health of our people should be at the heart of the work of Government. Sadly, tonight, with the proposed passing of this bill, we\u2019re neglecting the fact that what\u2019s good for M\u0101ori is good for all of us here in Aotearoa, and we\u2019ve lost sight of it with this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EI wanted to pick up specifically on clause 13 in this first part that we\u2019re looking at. I want to do this because, despite living in a country where we\u2019re known for our advanced healthcare system, relative to the rest of the world, it\u2019s been well traversed earlier in the evening and in the earlier readings just how pervasive and dire the health inequities faced by M\u0101ori are. And it\u2019s literally a matter of life and death. What makes it worse, though, is that these disparities are not only unjust but they\u2019re also preventable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003ESo, in the admirable aim of any Government\u2014and like this Government purports to be doing\u2014who genuinely seeks to address these disparities, one powerful tool emerges, and that is independent monitoring. I really want to hear from the Minister how clause 13 actually relates to that. Now, the reason why I want to home in on the independent monitoring is it offers a pathway to actually address the disparities that we have, and it was something that Te Aka Whai Ora was tasked with in providing independent monitoring of Te Whatu Ora. It made so much sense, and it was the right thing to do in stepping toward a system that upheld Te Tiriti and stepping towards what tino rangatiratanga could actually look like for M\u0101ori in the health system here in Aotearoa. I\u2019m sure that the Minister, with his background, will be well aware of how critical this independent monitoring role is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003ENow, with this Government seeking to abolish Te Aka Whai Ora, I\u2019d really appreciate hearing from the Minister who or what body or what system will now be put in place to take up the role of that independent monitoring, just because it\u2019s so invaluable. We know that we need this, ideally impartial, oversight of healthcare services. We know independent monitoring ensures accountability, it helps identify areas of improvement, and it also has the ability to safeguard against discrimination within the healthcare system, which M\u0101ori, we know, are faced with every day. Now, particularly with clause 13, which inserts new section 16A \u201CEngaging with and reporting to M\u0101ori\u201D, it says Health New Zealand must \u201C(b) report back to M\u0101ori from time to time\u201D. Now, this doesn\u2019t, to me, sound like a robust monitoring and evaluation system, so I\u2019d really like to hear the Minister\u2019s comments on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EIn his response, I\u2019d love to hear the appreciation and understanding that this independent monitoring role needs to be continued, and that it needs to be M\u0101ori monitoring and evaluating their own health outcomes for their people and not that it\u2019s going to be absorbed into Te Whatu Ora where it will be a broken, discriminatory system monitoring itself. I really want to hear that acknowledgment and commitment to the essential importance of independent monitoring, and committing to supporting and amplifying the needs and voices of M\u0101ori as part of a healthcare system that truly serves the needs of all. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u002201bc84650de944579cfa6a93abfefefe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201bc84650de944579cfa6a93abfefefe\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019ll speak in reverse order to the member who\u2019s just returned to her seat, Lan Pham, raising the question of monitoring. The Hauora M\u0101ori Advisory Committee (HMAC) will be a significant independent monitoring body, as will the Ministry of Health, who has the responsibility to actually monitor the whole health system. And, of course, Health New Zealand will have monitoring roles as well, but the independence will be with HMAC.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EThe question around clause 15, on section 30(1)(f), \u201Creplace \u2018the activities of the M\u0101ori Health Authority\u2019 with \u2018the hauora M\u0101ori activities of Health New Zealand\u2019.\u201D That\u2019s simply because the M\u0101ori Health Authority will no longer exist. Those functions needed to transfer, and they\u2019ll transfer to the operational arm of the system, which is Health New Zealand. Clause 15\u2014what do I envisage by \u201Csupport and engagement\u201D? Well, support would include cultural, professional, and financial support. Engagement is the collaborative communication and sharing of information. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022 data-id=\u0022b5048c8ecf0b431489aace92ed44226c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b5048c8ecf0b431489aace92ed44226c\u0022\u003EDr HAMISH CAMPBELL (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00221abf821b69544cbf8b51831143cf83e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221abf821b69544cbf8b51831143cf83e6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I will indicate to members that I have been watching this debate closely and we are close. It\u2019s a while since we have had any new material, and we\u2019ve done this. However, I will take Camilla Belich. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u002215f0f3f61bad4de98c4dd43b1c39d94e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002215f0f3f61bad4de98c4dd43b1c39d94e\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. It\u2019s my first opportunity to take a call in this debate, and I\u2019m pleased to be able to do so and, as you\u2019ve requested, cover some points which I don\u2019t think have been traversed fully in Part 1, which is the substantive part of this amendment bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe area that I really wanted to cover is, first of all, just to make a comment that, fundamentally, the case for the M\u0101ori Health Authority is met through an evidence base. There are very few groups in society where you can say that there is a higher mortality rate, a higher infant mortality rate, higher rates of smoking, higher rates of diabetes, and higher rates of the less effectiveness of some medications. I was particularly struck when visiting the University of Auckland and actually hearing that some of the medications that are developed are less effective on some populations than on others because they\u2019re not tested on those populations, and that does apply to M\u0101ori and Pasifika people. The actual medicine that we\u2019re developing is not as effective. So there is so much for the M\u0101ori Health Authority to do and so much less clarity on the role of this body that the Minister seeks to establish. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EIn Part 1, which we are now on, one of the most important and substantive sections which I don\u2019t think has been looked at as much as it could have been is the amendment to section 6 in clause 6, which looks at the repeal of part of Te Tiriti o Waitangi\u2014the Treaty of Waitangi\u2014provisions of the Act. My colleague Arena Williams, as she said in her contribution in this committee stage, has raised 40 amendments to Part 1, and the substantive number of those amendments relate to clause 6, which goes through\u2014and in her particular amendment, she has deleted particular clauses in the amendment bill which we\u2019re looking at, which then relate to the primary piece of legislation, the Pae Ora (Healthy Futures) Act. I hope the Minister has a copy of that Act, because that is really the substance of my colleague Arena Williams\u2019 amendments to it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo, if you look at her amendments, essentially, what she is suggesting to the Minister\u2014and my question to the Minister is: does he agree that there is some value in including these clauses in the legislation as it moves forward in relation to the new committee that he\u2019s setting up and the new regime that he\u2019s setting up to look at M\u0101ori health? The main things that Ms Williams wants to include in this section, which I agree with, are a whole lot of M\u0101ori strategy, jointly prepared by the M\u0101ori Health Authority and the ministry\u2014so retaining that particular functionality in those two groups. It\u2019s also looking at retaining section 6(h) of the Pae Ora legislation, which requires Health New Zealand and the M\u0101ori Health Authority to engage with iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards. It\u2019s requiring Health New Zealand and the M\u0101ori Health Authority to jointly develop and implement a New Zealand health plan and to work together in the performance of specified functions of Health New Zealand, and, most importantly, a really fundamentally important part of the Pae Ora (Healthy Futures) Act, which established the M\u0101ori Health Authority, is section 6(j), which looks at the particular experience of the people who are making these decisions for M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EIf we look comparatively at the new piece of legislation that the Minister is introducing, it does focus in the main on ministerial appointments and those who are perhaps favoured by the Government of the day. Conversely, the piece of legislation which the Minister is seeking to repeal through the passage of this legislation looks at the knowledge and experience and expertise that the people on the M\u0101ori Health Authority would have on Te Tiriti o Waitangi, tikanga M\u0101ori, m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori, kaupapa M\u0101ori services, cultural safety, and responsiveness of services. So that clause is being deleted, repealed by the section that we\u2019re looking at in clause 6. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo my question to the Minister is this. I think, and I hope, that we can all agree that that particular range of expertise is very important. So how is that going to be reflected in the new body which is to be established? I also note that this primary piece of legislation, the Pae Ora piece of legislation, implements the principles of Te Tiriti o Waitangi. It was passed democratically by this House, where everyone had a say on who was implementing the laws, and that is why it is a part of our law, which I think is an important point to remember. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u0022513051bc5be74b78b70abe745d4ecd80\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022513051bc5be74b78b70abe745d4ecd80\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I thank the member for those questions. At 19.41, Grant Robertson was the third speaker on clause 6. This is now the fourth, and I\u2019ve already indicated how we would meet our obligations under clause 6, so I don\u2019t have anything further to say on that at this point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022 data-id=\u0022de04f7d98f354367914ec6a55014ad2a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de04f7d98f354367914ec6a55014ad2a\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022dbc9c98f2aaa4d6a8ac2001e75421393\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on the question now close. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E: The question is that the Hon Peeni Henare\u2019s tabled amends to clause 9 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000821\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00220f3a283628d145f389c56a18295ca239\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f3a283628d145f389c56a18295ca239\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendments to clause 6(1) and deleting clause 27(3) are ruled out of order as being outside the principles and objects of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 19(2) is ruled out of order as not being in the correct form of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EThe question is that Arena Williams\u2019 remaining tabled amendments to Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000825\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002260bc6839a50047f5a657b9140b6f18e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002260bc6839a50047f5a657b9140b6f18e6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00222e690b9338684e7ba8c95c960da5daa0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e690b9338684e7ba8c95c960da5daa0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Willow-Jean Prime\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 10 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e943c6d1d58a4841bd116b11232df9f0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022277ec147035540fb917d9d7400f4d5fe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022277ec147035540fb917d9d7400f4d5fe\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Willow-Jean Prime\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 15 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228073edf5760d4ae8af8f0dcb4b15d6c1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002259d57e68ab234a7bbc2979df3db4707f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000829\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002254435de26c5240969ef863df179fcc2c\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to Part 4 and schedules\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022e019a1327f3f4890a80cfb0e42daf519\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e019a1327f3f4890a80cfb0e42daf519\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 2. This is the debate on clauses 38 to 43, amendments to Part 4 and schedules of the principal Act, and Schedules 1 and 2. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022521cc2a4dd5a4b30bfffab324d15cece\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022521cc2a4dd5a4b30bfffab324d15cece\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. For fear of the Minister and the Government thinking that our amendments were no good, we continue to offer them as an olive branch to the Minister for future reference in order to make this bill and the legislation into the future even better. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI want to bring the attention of the Minister to Schedule 1, \u201CNew Part 2 inserted into Schedule 1\u201D, and I want to speak directly to new clause 36, in new Part 2, which is \u201CTransfers from M\u0101ori Health Authority to Health New Zealand\u201D, and, in particular, if I may draw the Minister\u2019s attention to clause 36(1)(e). The Minister, in a number of contributions on this bill this evening, has spoken about and actually used the word \u201Crepatriation\u201D. When we\u2019re talking about the workforce that already exists within Te Aka Whai Ora, the Minister\u2019s words were \u201Crepatriation\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ENow, for some, that might give a bit of comfort that they\u2019ll still have a job into the future. But the reality is when this Government is looking towards saving 6.5 percent to 7.5 percent, guess whose heads are on the chopping block! What the experience is\u2014in particular in M\u0101ori health\u2014is that when Governments look towards austerity cuts, M\u0101ori kaupapa generally are the first ones out the door or on the chopping block.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ESo my question is very specific to the Minister with respect to his use of the word \u201Crepatriation\u201D of these staff. I\u2019ve spoken to some of those staff directly and they\u2019ve spoken to me of their anxiety. The fact that they left the original status quo health sector that the Minister is supporting and taking our health system back to\u2014they left that because they were disillusioned that it wasn\u2019t actually providing anything for M\u0101ori. Their skills weren\u2019t being utilised, so they found the home at Te Aka Whai Ora and their skills were utilised to the maximum capacity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ENow they\u2019re anxious, and the question to the Minister is that with regard to clause 36(1)(e), \u201Csubject to subclause (4), every employee of the M\u0101ori Health Authority becomes an employee of Health New Zealand on the same terms and conditions as applied immediately before they became an employee of Health New Zealand;\u201D\u2014wow! I can tell the Minister that a large number of those positions that were recruited in Te Aka Whai Ora were actually quite specialist positions, and do you know what? It\u2019s only fair that for a hard day\u2019s work you get a fair day\u2019s wage. Our expectation from this Minister\u2014and I would like to hear his answer to the question\u2014is about whether or not these staff will indeed actually be, in their entirety, repatriated, and in particular when the Minister\u2019s own finance Minister is asking for a 6.5 to 7.5 percent cut, or savings, in order to pay for tax cuts. So that\u2019s a really important question and that will go some way to soothing, if you will, the anxieties of many of that workforce that found a home in Te Aka Whai Ora who believed in the kaupapa of Te Aka Whai Ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe second part to that, I say to the Minister, is that as we look across the employees of Te Aka Whai Ora\u2014and I know this because I was the Minister responsible for doing this\u2014we know that there were a number of arrangements that saw some of those positions actually be part funded by Te Aka Whai Ora, so that they created a substantive position there, but were also part-funded by the iwi because it was important that the iwi found their voice and their particular health aspirations in Te Aka Whai Ora. So there were some really innovative, I\u2019ll call it, ways to make sure that those who found themselves at Te Aka Whai Ora could be used to their maximum potential. So that\u2019s a very clear question. I\u2019m sure, as I said, the workforce in Te Aka Whai Ora will look to the Minister to make sure that the Minister can certainly support many of those who are anxious at this point in time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI would like to bring the Minister\u2019s attention to the same new Part 2, clause 34, where it says in there, at clause 34(1), \u201CSection 54, which requires localities to be determined, takes effect on 1 July 2029.\u201D\u20141 July 2029. I don\u2019t have a crystal ball, but 2029? That\u2019s a long way away. This Minister, in this particular bill, is looking towards tying the hands of a future Government to a bill that clearly M\u0101ori do not want. So my question to the Minister here is: why so far out? Why, when the Minister has made it clear\u2014and, in fact, the words from a number of members from the Government were saying\u2014that tino rangatiratanga and mana motuhake are found regionally, driven by iwi, driven by M\u0101ori health providers locally, why, then, does this particular Part 2, clause 34(1), which requires localities to be determined, take effect on 1 July 2029? That\u2019s some way down the track, and I want to hear from the Minister: is this the vision that\u2019s been asked for by this side of the House? Is this the vision that the Minister is providing us? Because if that\u2019s the case, it\u2019s not flying with me, and I suspect that it won\u2019t fly with M\u0101ori health providers up and down the country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe final question I have for this particular part in Schedule 1 is to the next subclause\u2014so clause 34(2)\u2014which says, \u201CSection 55, which requires a locality plan to be developed for each locality, takes effect on 1 July 2030.\u201D Well, I\u2019m just seeking some clarity here. We\u2019ve got two different dates here which seemingly talk about the same thing around localities, and we\u2019ve already heard this evening how important localities are to the way that we look towards devolving services, commissioning for outcomes, etc. So just some clarity, if the Minister wouldn\u2019t mind on the two separate dates there, I\u2019m sure that will go some way to even encouraging, perhaps, more questions from, I know, myself and other members on this side of the Chamber about, \u201COK, if there\u2019s clarity there and we understand what the vision is here, then how can we continue to make sure that the strategy is clear for the M\u0101ori health sector?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EJust to recap, that\u2019s a question relating to clause 36(1)(e) and, of course, clause 34(1) and (2). I look forward to hearing from the Minister on those matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u0022f2f998a2a8ad4bab8088983066761c4f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f2f998a2a8ad4bab8088983066761c4f\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I thank the member who\u2019s just returned to seat, the Hon Peeni Henare, for his questions. I used the word \u201Crepatriation\u201D because what we know from the independent report into the M\u0101ori Health Authority\u20142022, I think that report came out; could have been 2023, May 2023\u2014was that there was some concerns that M\u0101ori with skills were taken from Health New Zealand and the M\u0101ori Health Authority and those from Health New Zealand and the Ministry of Health, leaving them somewhat eviscerated for those skills. So when I use \u201Crepatriation\u201D, it is to return them to what was their initial home. I do take the point that maybe part of their leaving was dissatisfaction and unhappiness with\u2014I do understand that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EClause 36(1)(e) describes what we\u2019re talking about here\u2014clause 34(1) talks to section 54, and clause 34(2) talks to section 55. I\u2019ve discussed localities at some length here tonight across Part 1, and I remain of the statements that I\u2019ve made that localities are simply paused, pending a view as to where they sit in a new configuration. The choosing of that date was just a placeholder date. There was nothing particularly special about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EThere was one other point, sorry. I meant to mention clause 36(1)(e), the transfer to the M\u0101ori Health Authority. That\u2019s consistent with the transfers Act and so is bound in the legislation of the transfers Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00224d9d070591954313b0c71f091340c455\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d9d070591954313b0c71f091340c455\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Just before I take the next speaker, members should be aware that that the new system of committee\u2014well, it\u2019s not really new\u2014is questions and answers. Now, members are entitled to take five-minute calls and that will be taken into account. However, the whole idea is that we get the interaction going with the Minister. So I would invite members to actually certainly take your time to ask your question, but it just will assist in keeping the information flow going. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5c74d2629d54cb1a0c52b4faa033d1b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5c74d2629d54cb1a0c52b4faa033d1b\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Chairperson. Just to seek a little bit more clarification with respect to the exchange that you\u2019re expecting. Is it your preference that upon receiving the call, we indicate that we will seek to have that exchange for fear of sitting down and losing the call? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00222a338fd0a8554e878a1526c665e2f393\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000846\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a338fd0a8554e878a1526c665e2f393\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, a wise and experienced member might stand and say, \u201CI intend to ask several questions here of the member in the chair.\u201D, and the Chair will then know. I do realise that there are different Chairs here and we all have our own styles, but certainly while I\u2019m in the Chair, which I will be over the next day or so, I leave it open to the members to conduct business that way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022 data-id=\u00229cbc9061100a4872922048764cbfb381\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000847\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229cbc9061100a4872922048764cbfb381\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. Being wise, I intend to ask a series of questions. So the first is in reference\u2014and there\u2019s quite extensive pages, I guess, involving new Part 2, clause 36, on the transfer of assets belonging to the M\u0101ori Health Authority and how the Minister sees that, I guess, transitioning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000848\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EThere are a couple of questions that come to mind. The first thing is that this kaupapa, Te Aka Whai Ora has mauri and has a name. And it has a name that was gifted to it. It has a name that was gifted to it by te ao M\u0101ori that comes with significant depth and meaning. If it is indeed this coalition Government\u2019s intention to put that name to rest, where and how can we expect\u2014and I will take on the fact that the Minister has spoken about cultural competency and, indeed, cultural integrity. Where and how does the Minister believe that the mauri of the name, the aspirations of the name and those of our kuia and our w\u2019\u0101nau that were involved with it, belongs? That leads me to\u2014I guess it\u2019s not actually, Minister, where it belongs. How do you see yourself putting that to rest, and where do the iwi and the people involved belong in that transferral?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EThis then leads me to my next question, which comes again around the lengthy\u2014and I guess I can do from clause 36(1)(a) to clause 40, and it carries on to page 15, from memory. Our biggest value out of all of this is our people and the fact that they were bold and courageous enough to give their time and their energy, their expertise to this kaupapa, and in fact, it\u2019s really important that we gather the experiences, the lessons, and the data that they have. There is a lengthy reference to those of our people who most of us consider as tohunga, whether it be from the manager on the board, to the youngest, newest staff member that\u2019s come and contributed to the belief that this model was going to make a huge impact to our communities. Where and how is the Minister proposing to hold that value? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000850\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EI\u2019m proposing to ensure that that value continues to stay in a health kaupapa that has primarily been focused on the speciality of M\u0101ori in addressing inequities in M\u0101ori. Knowing that we have such a shortage of qualified, experienced, and skilled people, how can we be assured that the Minister has not only considered the biggest value that we have, which are our wh\u0101nau, our kaimahi, our kaitautoko, our kaihaut\u016B, on this waka that has, as I think the chair quite rightly put, been put ashore until the tide changes\u2014it would be really critical for us connected to the communities and those connected to the iwi. Certainly, one of the questions that has been given by iwi-M\u0101ori partnership board members is: what happens to our biggest asset or value, which is our people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u00227e79d3c979da4ffbbbdf25114d014df6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000851\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e79d3c979da4ffbbbdf25114d014df6\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I thank the member for those questions. With regards to recognising the special place of name as a taonga, this was put to me by the Hauora M\u0101ori Advisory Committee, and I suggested to them that if they wanted to make recommendations, I would take their advice. So I do understand that. I do understand where it came from. And in their capable hands, I envisage it will be placed safely back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000852\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003ESecondly, I\u2019ve already mentioned, in the first reading, the importance of organisational knowledge and retaining that and the vital importance of staff who have transferred and the hope that they\u2019ll transfer with us into these two new homes, these two new vehicles, and help us with the mission that we have. To that effect, I have tasked the leadership, who will be transitioning also, with paying particular attention that we retain the best learnings, the best knowledge that may have come from this period of time with the M\u0101ori Health Authority so that we can take this into the new organisations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac2dc0313dae456aa29a9e751c9446dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000853\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac2dc0313dae456aa29a9e751c9446dd\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I just want to start my contribution by reading from the evidence of our auntie Moe Milne. Paragraph 12: \u201CI was part of the branding and naming of Te Aka Whai Ora. We were very deliberate about what we were talking about. Te Aka Whai Ora were the vines from the whenua ki te rangi\u2014our connections, our intertwining, the intertwining vines in the pursuit of oranga and wellbeing. Te Aka Whai Ora is the wellness of our people.\u201D I\u2019m just going to leave that there for the Minister to think about when he thinks about what he is going to do with the taonga that was gifted to this Government for Te Aka Whai Ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI want to talk about the determination of localities and locality plans. The Minister said that he has already spoken to this in previous debates, but this clearly comes within the part that we are debating now and the schedule that we are debating now. It is new Part 2, which is inserted into Schedule 1. It is clause 34 and, in particular, sections 54 and 55 and dates that are going to be amended. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EWhat I want to refer to here\u2014and I\u2019m just going to pull it up. I\u2019m skipping between what is currently in the Act and what is being proposed in the legislation that we have before us. I think that when it comes to localities and locality plans, this is actually something all New Zealanders should be concerned about, not just M\u0101ori. This is being dressed up as and presented as, what I would call, virtue signalling: \u201CWe\u2019re going to get rid of Te Aka Whai Ora. We\u2019re going to do it within 100 days. Look at us; look how great we are delivering on our election promises.\u201D I can talk to you about no consultation, not following any due processes, doing it under parliamentary urgency, but what all New Zealanders need to know is that localities and locality plans were not just for M\u0101ori, they were not just for Te Aka Whai Ora; they are actually part of how the whole pae ora legislation functions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ESo the Minister is delaying these by years. The proposal is an arbitrary time frame that he just thought up as a placeholder, and he has given us no reason, no proper justification, as to why he has picked this time frame in the proposed legislation. Why this is important not just for M\u0101ori but for all New Zealanders is because when you look at locality plans, section 55 of the principal Act states that \u201C(1) Health New Zealand must develop a locality plan for each locality. (2) A locality plan must\u2014(a) set out the priority outcomes and services for the locality; and (b) state the plan\u2019s duration, which must, as a minimum, be 3 consecutive financial years; and (c) give effect to the relevant requirements of the New Zealand Health Plan; and (d) include a statement of progress against the priority outcomes set out in the previous locality plan, unless it is the first locality plan for that locality. (3) In developing a locality plan for a locality, Health New Zealand must\u2014(a) consult consumers and communities within the locality;\u201D\u2014so I think about Northland and I think about Te Tai Tokerau. This is not just about consulting Te Aka Whai Ora and iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards; this is the entire community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EThe whole point of the pae ora legislation was to end a postcode lottery for health services. I was in my communities talking to my communities about the postcode lottery we have had in Tai Tokerau for health services. Come and visit. Come and see the health inequities. In fact, the Minister, a former GP in that area, knows these well. So your delay to 2029 and 2030 means the entire community that lives within these localities are now going to have to wait to have input into the health plan, to have input into what\u2019s going to go into the Government policy statement (GPS), to have input and what is going to receive financial support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t think the Minister just dreamt up 2029 and 2030. That puts it beyond their current term. That actually puts this now beyond their term of Government. Basically, they are kicking the can down the road\u2014\u201CWe don\u2019t want to give locals a voice in the development of their health strategy and plans that we are then going to have to deliver on through a Budget process.\u201D Please explain to me if I am misunderstanding what the point of your pushing out of the time frames is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ESection 55(3) says, \u201CIn developing a locality plan for a locality, Health New Zealand must\u2014(a) consult consumers and communities \u2026 (b) consult local authorities affected by the \u2026 plan;\u201D\u2014sorry, Far North District Council; sorry, Whangarei District Council; sorry, Kaipara District Council. You\u2019ll have to wait until 2029-30 when I might come and have a k\u014Drero to you about the concerns for your health needs and aspirations in your area. You have to consult the social sector agencies and other entities that contribute to the relevant population outcomes within a locality. Sorry, all of you providers. We\u2019re not coming to talk to you until 2029-30.\u201D \u201CI\u2019m going to set health targets,\u201D is what the health Minister said, \u201Cbut I\u2019m not going to follow any of the processes in the legislation which gives a local voice.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ENow, this has been done under urgency. There is no select committee process. Do all New Zealanders understand that in the disestablishment of Te Aka Whai Ora, you\u2019re actually sneaking in other fundamental changes that are impacting the way in which this legislation operates to deliver health services to our community\u2014do they? Well, it\u2019s pretty late, there\u2019s no select committee process, this will be done by tomorrow, and the very mechanisms in this legislation to make it work, to deliver pae ora for all will be gone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000861\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EOh, sorry, it also says here that you will engage with the M\u0101ori Health Authority\u2014that\u2019s going to be gone\u2014and iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards for the area covered by the plan, and you\u2019ll consult any other individual or group that Health New Zealand considers appropriate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EIt says that a locality plan is made when it is agreed by Health New Zealand, the M\u0101ori Health Authority, and relevant M\u0101ori organisation, iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards\u2014right? This isn\u2019t just about disestablishing Te Aka Whai Ora; this is about fundamentally changing the mechanisms within this legislation that will deliver healthy futures for all. So can the Minister, again, please tell the entire committee\u2014or not \u201Cagain\u201D and \u201Cplease tell\u201D, because you haven\u2019t yet. Can the Minister please explain to the committee why it is necessary to change the date for localities and locality plans to 2029 and 2030, and how will all of those in section 55 who were going to have a role in developing their locality plan, which was going to inform the strategy and the GPS, now have their say in the processes going forward?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022 data-id=\u00225acc51d986e14319bc1b3d87e6400a45\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225acc51d986e14319bc1b3d87e6400a45\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Chair. It\u2019s incumbent upon me to share with the committee my intimate knowledge of the establishment of iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards and localities in Tai Tokerau, having spent two years working on the predecessor Kotui Hauora, a DHB-iwi relationship board, and then in Te Taumata Hauora o Te Tai Tokerau and the locality space. My question is unique and different to what has been put forward by my colleagues, but it does relate to the time line of the legislation and, in particular, for localities for 1 July 2029. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000864\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003ENow, not all localities in Tai Tokerau have been established. There have been expressions of interest to commence the work, and Te Aka Whai Ora and Te Whatu Ora have received those letters of intention. However, for the past six to, now, 12 months, Te Whatu Ora, as the fund holder, have held on to the dollar. There has been no ability for iwi, hap\u016B, marae, community, and councils to commence the work together to establish a locality. So, you know, the instance or the argument that somehow Te Whatu Ora is going to be the golden egg for M\u0101ori health\u2014when hap\u016B, iwi, and marae come together with providers and councils and say, \u201CWe\u2019re ready to go\u201D, we don\u2019t get a dollar to start the conversation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003ENow, saying that, I\u2019m asking the Minister of Health my direct question around the time line of 1\u00A0July 2029: will there be resourcing available for our people to do that important work so we can have lift off at this date, so that our locality plans can be well developed by that date, because we know community engagement takes a while. I\u2019m not saying Ng\u0101 hap\u016B o Ng\u0101puhi are always a cohesive group; I\u2019m not saying that we have strong relationship with council day to day, but it takes time. So I think that this is an opportunity for us to resource the engine room\u2014which is community, it is hap\u016B, it is marae\u2014through the locality space, up into 2029, so that we can cut the ribbon and say, \u201CHere we go, we have localities across the nation, with locality plans in place, and we\u2019re good to go across the health system.\u201D This is an opportunity for this Government to resource us to get on with the job. So that\u2019s my question: will you resource us to do the locality work that we\u2019ve been waiting for for quite some time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EThe second question is relating to our employees of Te Aka Whai Ora, and specifically to clause 43 in the new Part 2 to be inserted into Schedule 1 of the principal Act. Now, I\u2019m mindful that there are just under 300 kaimahi within Te Aka Whai Ora and many of them are across regional spaces, the hospitals\u2014Hokianga, Whang\u0101rei, Kerikeri, and there\u2019s a few in the Wellington and Auckland areas too. My question is in terms of the policies and their status, of the lift and shift into Te Whatu Ora. Minister, our wh\u0101nau in Te Aka Whai Ora are specialists, as we\u2019ve heard from Peeni Henare. They are based in locations in k\u0101inga for a reason. Te Aka Whai Ora are like a hub and a spoke. Te Aka Whai Ora provided the tap root, the tree was established, and then they were the kaimahi in the rohe. Will their conditions be the same transferring to Te Whatu Ora, or will they become a part of the 80,000 strong workforce of Te Whatu Ora and be expected to move to Whang\u0101rei or expected to move to Auckland, Hamilton, Christchurch, or Wellington to become a part of the big 80,000-strong workforce?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m concerned for the cousins in the regions who deliver outcomes for our people and are the listening ear. So Te Aka Whai Ora commissioned them to be listening ears in the k\u0101inga. So when we lift and shift them to Te Whatu Ora, will we continue to support them to stay in those locations, or will they be centralised? Kia ora. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa34feca2c4e46cea9a4d7151db0380b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000868\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa34feca2c4e46cea9a4d7151db0380b\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. To speak to the member before the one who has just resumed her seat\u2014the Hon Willow-Jean Prime\u2014the questions she raised were exactly those raised by the former Minister Peeni Henare about 16 minutes previously on clause 34(1) and section 54, and clause (2) and section 55, and I don\u2019t envisage repeating that. I also met with whaea Moe Milne about three weeks ago, and we discussed the importance of the name. I indicated to her that the Hauora M\u0101ori Advisory Committee had said that they would provide recommendations and that I\u2019d be highly likely to take up their recommendations. I met with her also, so I do understand the importance of the name.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000869\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003ETo the member who has just taken her seat\u2014H\u016Bhana Lyndon\u2014again, that was a discussion on localities, which I have discussed in detail, and regarding the transfer of staff terms and conditions, it will, as I say, remain as the Health Sector (Transfers) Act requires. I don\u2019t envisage those who are out in the regions being consumed and consolidated centrally, and our initial thinking is that people will stay. Certainly, those in the regions will stay as they are is our initial thinking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u00224167093143134d659bdf25d26224ae39\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000870\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224167093143134d659bdf25d26224ae39\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I just wanted to pick up on what the Minister of Health was just saying, because transfer of undertakings, of course, is one of the most important areas, particularly for kaimahi, for workers. We have a whole history, as union representatives will attest, of constant problems\u2014I\u2019m looking at, again, clause 36(1)(d) of new Part 2, inserted in Schedule 1, in terms of transfer of undertakings. I want to come to this as a very important area. I worked in this area for years, and we\u2019ve had constant problems in terms of transfer of undertakings. As you\u2019ll see, clause 36(1)(d) says, \u201Call rights, liabilities, contracts, entitlements, undertakings, and engagements of the M\u0101ori Health Authority become the rights, liabilities, contracts, entitlements, undertakings, and engagements of Health New Zealand\u201D. Now, with so much negative publicity around this, what type of guarantees can our Minister give us with regards to continual recognition of conditions, of employment, of wages?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000871\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EThis is not a secure area at all, and I think if you follow the clauses after the transfer of undertakings, you will see how complex an area this is, because if you go to paragraph (f), you will read, \u201Canything done, or omitted to be done, or that is to be done, by or in relation to the M\u0101ori Health Authority is to be treated as having been done\u201D\u2014whatever the hell that means. I wouldn\u2019t mind an explanation on that \u201Cor having been omitted to be done, or to be done, by or in relation to Health New Zealand\u201D. When you read that type of language, you know, it makes workers feel very, very insecure. They\u2019re not sure of where they\u2019re going. They\u2019re not sure of any guarantees in terms of continual employment. I have heard the Minister say, but I thought he was a little bit casual, with respect, in terms of \u201CWell, everything will be just carried on.\u201D We have heard that many, many times\u2014many, many times. Wages have been adjusted; people have lost their jobs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000872\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EWe are in a very insecure environment here, so I wouldn\u2019t mind some clarity from the Minister with regards to this and how the culture of the M\u0101ori Health Authority is going to be continued in terms of Health New Zealand. He talked about Moe Milne, and I\u2019m glad he\u2019s consulting with a wonderful kuia like her\u2014one of the most revered kuia of the North, no doubt about that\u2014and I\u2019m sure our kuia there would have told him about some of the insecurities of some of her kids, her nephews, her nieces.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000873\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003ETransfer of undertaking, Mr Chair\u2014and you would know, yourself\u2014has been one of the most controversial areas in the history of work relations and unions. I was a union official for 17, 18 years. Many times\u2014many times\u2014we had to go back in and renegotiate. So what has the Minister got in place to deal with this type of kaupapa? How is he going to safeguard workers? Have these workers been consulted? Are these workers members of unions? We have a variety of different kaimahi there who have allegiances, some of them who might be in the unions; some of them who are not in the unions, and so how have they been made to feel secure going forward? I think these are big questions in terms of transfer of undertakings. Also, what security are they going to be given in terms of retention of culture?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u0022d52eb313b41d481db96e37823135b58c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000874\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d52eb313b41d481db96e37823135b58c\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. That\u2019s a really good question from the member and I thank him for that. I\u2019ve been informed that the vast majority of people who moved from the Ministry of Health and Health New Zealand to the M\u0101ori Health Authority moved under the Health Sector (Transfers) Act 1993. So exactly the same provisions that didn\u2019t raise concern when they first moved there will actually be the mechanism that puts them back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022fffd14c881fd418c9321da1bb37f6d08\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000875\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fffd14c881fd418c9321da1bb37f6d08\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Well, thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019d like to thank the Minister for that response, because also, as I speak to clause 43(2) in Schedule 1, this is taking a specific micro-look at some of these matters, when we consider the kind of transfer and references made by my colleague the Hon Willie Jackson about our workers, and that clause 43(2) says, \u201CHealth New Zealand must undertake a reasonable consultation process before introducing any employment policy that is reasonably likely to have a material effect on that employee.\u201D Well, what we know about Te Aka Whai Ora is that, actually, the unique way that they were able to look after their kaimahi\u2014their workers\u2014in order to serve that community, it is a specifically and uniquely M\u0101ori view here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000876\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re looking for something far more detailed from the Minister with respect to his answer, when it clearly says here in clause 43(2) \u201CHealth New Zealand must undertake a reasonable consultation process before introducing any employment policy that is reasonably likely to have a material effect on that employee.\u201D Well, I can tell the Minister with experience\u2014oh, actually, the Minister will know this\u2014across M\u0101ori health providers, of course M\u0101ori health providers do things in a specifically M\u0101ori way, in particular to look after their kaimahi. Those are their employment policies that they look to employ in order to make sure that their unique M\u0101ori view\u2014in particular with respect to Te Aka Whai Ora\u2014is actually seen as a strength and not a weakness in the way that we employ kaimahi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000877\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ESo the question here is very specific about the consultation that Health New Zealand will undertake so that there is no material effect on that employee. I think that\u2019s really important, so I\u2019m going to leave that question for the Minister, and hopefully get that micro kind of answer that we\u2019re looking towards as we think about employment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022860266ad4f87426197b7d96a64143c9d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000878\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022860266ad4f87426197b7d96a64143c9d\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. My question is in relation to clause 40 in new Part 2 of Schedule 1, which is \u201CTransfer of employees of M\u0101ori Health Authority to Health New Zealand\u201D, and it says here that \u201C(1) This clause applies to an employee of the M\u0101ori Health Authority if, before the commencement date, the employee is notified in writing by the chief executive of the M\u0101ori Health Authority that\u2014(a) this clause applies to the employee; and (b) on the commencement date, the employee will become an employee of Health New Zealand.\u201D I cannot imagine the stress and worry that Te Aka Whai Ora employees are suffering at the moment. We\u2019ve heard about lift and shift for Te Aka Whai Ora staff. Is the Minister going to guarantee employment security for staff and their existing conditions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000879\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EWhen I read what\u2019s in this document, I don\u2019t see something that gives me great confidence. So I\u2019d like to hear from the Minister as to his clarification on Health New Zealand\u2019s reasonable consultation process that we\u2019ve just heard there because of the material impacts that\u2019s going to have, because back in December, the Government passed legislation to bring back 90-day trials for all employers and the Government has already pushed many more people and communities into precarity. This is a real concern for our nation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000880\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003ESo in new subclause (4), it says, \u201CTo avoid doubt, subclause (3)\u2014(a) does not entitle an employee who was not covered by the earlier agreement to be covered by the new collective agreement; and (b) does not prevent the parties to the new collective agreement from varying or terminating the agreement in accordance with the terms of the agreement and other applicable law.\u201D I think we all deserve clarity on the employee\u2019s exposure to risk in the new arrangements. I would really like to hear from the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7ee571c7449434ea343a57d3e526c38\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000881\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7ee571c7449434ea343a57d3e526c38\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Thank you for this opportunity to take a call and talk to different parts of the schedule that we have in front of us tonight. So I do want to say that is going to happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000882\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EBut the Minister said that he had met with our whaea Moe Milne, and that he\u2019s going to heed the advice of her committee on what to do with the name Te Aka Whai Ora. But I want to know: is he going to heed the advice that she has for him through her evidence in the Waitangi Tribunal? She said, \u201CThis Government has been totally disloyal by disproving and denying M\u0101ori any sense of ownership and influence over M\u0101ori health\u201D. She said, \u201CThe hurt. The first sense that I had when I heard the announcement was real hurt. I wanted to sit down and cry when I heard that. How dare this Government negate us? How dare they withdraw and unwind aspirations in the hope that we revert? We are not going to revert.\u201D, and she said, at clause 7, paragraph 7, \u201COur disappointment is that some of this is being directed by people who have whakapapa to Te Tai Tokerau, to our home. It is a violation and a betrayal\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000883\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EThe clause that I want to ask about in particular is the interpretation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000884\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f308c4507434f35803fb4dc9ad8538f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, you will be back more specifically on the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000885\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a641b48fd00749b9b7f2a039d87945cb\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m on it\u2014I\u2019m on it. I was just responding to the Minister saying that he had met with Moe Milne around the name Te Aka Whai Ora\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da8dd6c5a4d04bf78e648f51137fcd93\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: From here on, let\u2019s just stick to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000887\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022594d4d705cfb41fe9a0345afb77226d3\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: Happy to, Mr Chair. I have got that now on the Hansard. What I want to talk to is clause 32, which is interpretation and commencement date\u2014it means the date on which the amendment Act comes into force. I want to talk to it specifically in this schedule, not in its own clause, in the schedule, because that\u2019s what the interpretation of this is. What I find absolutely unbelievable is that the commencement for this\u2014well (1) I don\u2019t like what\u2019s happening, but (2) the commencement for it is not until 30 June. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ESo why, why, Minister, are we hearing\u2014why are we dealing with this piece of legislation under urgency today, and now going into tomorrow morning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cd3d42e401e4c07a5eb24ece2bc04b1\u0022\u003EMiles Anderson\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not a new question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000890\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc00284973b6423b969972957dd72cdc\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: It is a new question. Listen up! Who is not listening?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000891\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242cc67841f8748daaba91df351488a49\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re actually not on to the commencement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000892\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b74ff8d1f65d4c0f92d760c41fb620ea\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: No, we\u2019re in the interpretation, and the interpretation in the Schedule\u2014I\u2019ve read it out, and it\u2019s clause 32. So, here, for the ones at the back that don\u2019t know, is new Part 2, inserted into Schedule 1. Part 2, \u201CProvisions relating to Provisions relating to Pae Ora (Disestablishment of M\u0101ori Health Authority) Amendment Act 2024.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022287d05ebeaae43e486872b0277b1c017\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s your question to the Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000894\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbe0a22c440b423d98677d71ba6fdc20\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: You know, he thinks I\u2019m not in the right clause. Clause 32, \u201CInterpretation\u201D, \u201CIn this Part,\u2014\u2019amendment Act\u2019\u00A0\u201D\u2014what does that mean\u2014and \u201Ccommencement date\u201D. That means the date on which the amendment Act comes into force. Now, what is that date? That date is 30 June 2024. So why? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000895\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EWhy are we having this legislation introduced this evening, passed\u2014likely\u2014tomorrow morning, when it\u2019s not even going to come into effect until 30 June? I know why. It\u2019s because there\u2019s a Waitangi Tribunal inquiry, where all of the Minister\u2019s relations are coming to present their evidence in opposition to the disestablishment of Te Aka Whai Ora. Why is there no select committee process? There is time, but, no, we\u2019re going to pass it all under urgency by tomorrow morning, but it\u2019s not actually going to come into effect until 30 June. So that would have allowed us ample time to have a select committee process, because apparently you only allow, like, one day for submissions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000896\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EThe Minister has decided to rush this through under urgency, with no consultation. Your own departmental disclosure statement says \u201Cno consultation\u201D. You had an opportunity to have a select committee process\u2014no, thank you! You know there is a Waitangi Tribunal inquiry about to take place on Thursday, but no: \u201CI can introduce this legislation today, and we can curtail the mana in the authority of the tribunal to be able to inquire into that evidence.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000897\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI can see I\u2019ve got 10 seconds on the clock and I\u2019m not finished on this point. So the tribunal would have been, if was allowed to have its hearings scheduled for the\u2014[Time expired]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u00222a71085f628447bebecc386c9c51d229\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000898\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a71085f628447bebecc386c9c51d229\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and apologies to my colleague the Hon Willow-Jean Prime for taking over the call, because I think she was keen to\u2014and I know she\u2019s got a lot of new material to continue bringing to the debate. But I was just reflecting, Mr Chair, on your advice to the committee of the whole House earlier around engaging in a little bit of quick-fire with the Minister of Health, so I\u2019m quite keen to do that, and so I\u2019m hoping that the Minister might take me up on that opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000899\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EBecause we\u2019ve been talking around employment relations, I\u2019m specifically interested to know if the Minister has met with any of the unions that represent the workers that are affected. Specifically, has he met with the Public Service Association, has he met with the New Zealand Nurses Organisation, or has he met with any other health unions\u2014or have any of his officials\u2014to specifically talk through the transfer and the employment rights for those who will be transferring from one agency to another? I\u2019m hoping that the Minister may engage in some of that quick-fire with me now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022 data-id=\u0022c9796a1f350347bcabc08de13f688b82\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000900\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ba11b3f-65ea-4f86-92e4-fe78ea522647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c9796a1f350347bcabc08de13f688b82\u0022\u003EDANA KIRKPATRICK (National\u2014East Coast):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022 data-id=\u00229ff11ef456f34be594a5d8c809ff9632\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000901\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ff11ef456f34be594a5d8c809ff9632\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe. The Minister hasn\u2019t answered my question regarding resourcing for localities up into the date of July 2029. I ask this again as a member of hap\u016B and iwi in Whang\u0101rei who wait to be resourced by Te Whatu Ora to do this very important work. So I\u2019d like to receive an answer: if there will be resourcing to allow us to do this work up into this date.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000902\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EFurther, he inoi t\u0113nei ki te Minita e p\u0101 ana ki te ingoa o Te Aka Whai Ora. I haere ahau ki te whakatuwhera, te whakarewatanga o te ingoa o Te Aka Whai Ora ki Waitangi. He hui nui, he hui whakahirahira m\u014D te iwi, m\u014D te motu wh\u0101nui. Ki reira ka rongo i ng\u0101 kaik\u014Drero e whakam\u0101rama ana i ng\u0101 kupu \u014Dh\u0101k\u012B o r\u0101tou m\u0101, me te whakam\u0101rama i te ingoa \u201CTe Aka Whai Ora\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000903\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EKua tono mai taku whaea, Debbie, \u201CHe aha te tikanga kia whakamoea te ingoa \u2018Te Aka Whai Ora\u2019?\u201D N\u014D reira he tono t\u0113nei mai i t\u0113nei uri o Te Taitokerau: me hoki an\u014D te kaupapa ki Waitangi kia whakamoea te ingoa o Te Aka Whai Ora, ka tika. Kia ora. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000904\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E[Further, this is a request to the Minister with respect to the name of Te Aka Whai Ora. I attended the opening, the launch of the name of Te Aka Whai Ora in Waitangi. It was a significant meeting, an important meeting for the people, and for the wider nation. There I heard the speakers explain the parting words of those who have passed on, and also explain the name \u201CTe Aka Whai Ora\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000905\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EMy Aunty Debbie asked of me, \u201CWhat is the reason for putting the name \u2018Te Aka Whai Ora\u2019 to sleep?\u201D So this is a request from this descendant of Northland: the initiative should return to Waitangi so that the name of Te Aka Whai Ora may be put to rest; it is the most appropriate thing to do. Kia ora.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u00225b29732148ee4c6f9b371346fac397d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000906\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b29732148ee4c6f9b371346fac397d9\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and I thank the member H\u016Bhana Lyndon, who has just taken her chair. As I said, I\u2019ll take advice from the Hauora M\u0101ori Advisory Committee on the best way to return that taonga, and I do understand that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000907\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EI also want to talk to the two members Peeni Henare and Scott Willis, who raised the question around clause 43(2), inserted by new Part 2 into Schedule 1, around a reasonable consultation. I\u2019ve been advised that that terminology copies provisions of existing schedules and the consultation mirrors the Employment Relations Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a8691b666cf74b1ca5ef8d3912dc8849\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000908\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a8691b666cf74b1ca5ef8d3912dc8849\u0022\u003EJAMES MEAGER (National\u2014Rangitata):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0a65837bb4f4a249cc3537e286887b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000909\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0a65837bb4f4a249cc3537e286887b8\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Kia orana. Look, it\u2019s a pleasure to contribute to this debate that\u2019s moving through the committee through urgency at the moment. I want to take a call because I received a message from one of my constituents in Palmerston North that was concerned that the House was using its time where they were not able to have an opportunity to perhaps submit on this process. [Interruption] So I do want to acknowledge the fact\u2014and members opposite might not like the fact that people in electorates are unhappy with this process, and that\u2019s exactly why we\u2019re here tonight at the late hour on their behalf to ask the questions of the Government and to put these issues to the Minister, because they have not had an opportunity out in the community to actually put forward their views. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EBut I do want to just put to the Minister. He has responded to some of the issues around the localities and the locality planning, but there is still, I think, an outstanding response from the Minister, and I implore him to consider responding, which is, he has indicated that he has, effectively, randomly selected a date at some point in the future. It\u2019s still not quite clear, Minister\u2014in light of some of the feedback and the questions that have been put to you\u2014whether you\u2019re still comfortable with that date, at some point in time, given some of the issues that have been raised. So I think that\u2019s still an outstanding point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000911\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EMy colleague Rachel Boyack and also the Hon Willie Jackson touched on some of the transfer of entitlements, and there\u2019s still an outstanding question around what level of engagement with worker representations and unions has actually been undertaken by the Minister in light of the fact that this will have implications. Now, it might appear on face value that these implications might just appear on paper, but we are talking about a change in the workplace which may come with a change in the culture in the workplace. And surely there must be an opportunity for those who are going to be directly impacted as new, or potentially new, employees in a new entity\u2014even though the entity is an existing one\u2014the opportunity to be heard. So I\u2019m just interested around that as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000912\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EMinister, I note that in terms of the new proposal, which is clause 36(1)(b), this is relating to, effectively, the transfer of assets and the transfer of information. I note that paragraph (b) talks about all of the information and documents that would be held by the M\u0101ori Health Authority are, effectively, held by Health New Zealand. What I\u2019m not quite clear on are two things: one is how that information is securely retained, and it might be that it is actually answered in paragraph (d) further down there. But there\u2019s no indication about\u2014OK, the information might be held by Health New Zealand, but what about the access to it? So on what basis can the information be accessed on an ongoing basis, and also will the information have some indication that it previously was part of a former entity that no longer exists?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000913\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe reason why I ask the Minister this is that there are many pieces of information that would be retained\u2014well, not retained. It would be obtained by a new entity that might actually have some archival or former relevance. I note that there is reference in this bill that relates to the context, unless the context otherwise dictates or indicates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000914\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EBut there is still some uncertainty about not just the retaining of the information but how it is going to be accessed and how it might be used, because there are other implications potentially\u2014I don\u2019t know. I mean, that\u2019s why I think it\u2019s important, Minister. If you were to take a call to respond to that in terms of not just holding the information but how it might be accessed, I think that might be quite not just unique but important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000915\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ESo those are the questions that I suggest the Minister may wish to take a call on, but I\u2019d be very interested on behalf of the constituents of Palmerston North for a response given that the House is, effectively, sitting under urgency without an opportunity for scrutiny this evening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002291a7b60e9e254618ab1a0a89f943333a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000916\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002291a7b60e9e254618ab1a0a89f943333a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The time has come for me to leave the Chair. I\u2019ll give the Minister the opportunity to more fully answer that tomorrow. The House will resume at 9 a.m. tomorrow. Thank you for your work tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202402279401943861e7400a8984e994c6c7e367000917\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 9.59 p.m. to 9 a.m. (Wednesday). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022176d1e5405d44b05ada3b1fae09b60b4\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 27 FEBRUARY 2024\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022912cee1e18644f58b3167a9adca85af9\u0022\u003E(continued on Wednesday, 28 February 2024)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c94941bb9352412ba0ac218d211e7140\u0022\u003EPae Ora (Disestablishment of M\u0101ori Health Authority) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022566023c10a3d431892cb9b6ca96aee3b\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000005\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f3a5d59527154661b60dd95f32058069\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to Part 4 and schedules (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022f4f7050357b8429ea74d122572bc6e74\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f4f7050357b8429ea74d122572bc6e74\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Good morning, members. When we suspended last night, we were debating Part 2. This is the debate on clauses 38 to 43, amendments to Part 4 and schedules of the principal Act, and Schedules 1 and 2. The question, again, is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u002271b8c049ab9349338cbf15610ed1ab40\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271b8c049ab9349338cbf15610ed1ab40\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Chair. Thank you for the opportunity. M\u014Drena to members, despite how urgency works and we go into another day. M\u014Drena to everybody here. M\u014Drena to the Minister, and I do want to acknowledge the Minister the Hon Shane Reti for such a lengthy time in the chair. He\u2019s done his job to try to answer the many questions that have been put to him by this side of the Chamber about this particular bill. I won\u2019t spend too much time recapping. As we come to Part 2, it\u2019s really important, though, as we get into the real technical, or some might say\u2014and I spoke to my daughter this morning before she went to school\u2014the nitty-gritty, and it\u2019s now our chance to prosecute just a few more of the matters in Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThis is where I want to start. Last night, I asked a question around clause 43, in New Part 2, which is inserted into Schedule 1. The Minister\u2019s answer was to speak to the Employment Relations Act, if I recall correctly. While I appreciate that the Employment Relations Act is there and it does what it does\u2014it\u2019s a very good Act and, if Labour had their way again, we\u2019d probably make a few more changes just to continue to secure more workers\u2019 rights\u2014it\u2019s really important, though, because this particular clause, clause 43, is slightly more granular, and I mentioned this last night. It does talk to policy. The legislation is there as a structure. The policy, however\u2014and Te Aka Whai Ora in its establishment\u2014was very clear that it was going to be for the pedagogy of a M\u0101ori world view. That means, then, that we use the Employment Relations Act as a skeleton, if you will, but, by crikey, the policies there were, first and foremost, M\u0101ori policies. I want to remind the Minister that, in clause 43, it says that Health New Zealand must undertake a reasonable consultation process before introducing any employment policy that is reasonably likely to have a material effect on that employee. That\u2019s important. It doesn\u2019t talk about changing the law\u2014the Employment Relations Act. It talks very specifically about policies that have a material effect on that employee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWe spoke at length last night about the plight of those employees at Te Aka Whai Ora, and the anxiety they must be feeling as the uncertainty dawns upon them that the taonga that our t\u016Bpuna\u2014and many members in this House and particularly on this side of the House\u2014have fought so hard for could be gone by lunch time today. So I want to just remind the Minister why that granular stuff is important. To just simply say that the Employment Relations Act\u2014well, no we\u2019re talking very specifically here about employment policy. Yes, the Act can help steer and direct policy, but without Te Aka Whai Ora, which was materially different in the way that it employs, the way that it looks after its staff, and in the world view that it continues to carry\u2014so I\u2019m asking the Minister, with the officials by his side, whether they are able to tell us exactly what that means and why it is important, because of the anxiety that will affecting, in the Minister\u2019s own words, a health workforce that is under the pump. I think the Minister\u2019s words yesterday were that the health workforce is \u201Cshattered.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWell, that is why this is important, and I want to make sure that the Minister has the opportunity to address that, so that as we continue to discuss these matters with those who are employed by Te Aka Whai Ora, we can continue to support them. That\u2019s important because very soon we\u2019ll get to the title and commencement clauses, and if the commencement date is not until June but this law is changing now, we want to make sure that over the next four months those staff have a very clear pathway, a very clear platform for the work they\u2019re doing, in order to continue to serve our communities. So that\u2019s the question that I\u2019m still seeking answers to. I want to thank the Minister, though, for his forbearance and his attempt to continue to answer the questions from this side. So, in that vein, let\u2019s start the day off well, and that\u2019s my question to the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u0022b308b2928cee4b4596f33d9996226355\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b308b2928cee4b4596f33d9996226355\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Given that you are new in the Chair this morning, I will just say that my questions from my last contributions last night haven\u2019t actually been responded to by the Minister. The debate was closed down after that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220d415ee8602435fb2ff4c9d5fdf747b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I was watching.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d2982d2270f491b92bb4fed716ca8a3\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I\u2019m going to start on a different clause, but I still want answers to my previous contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI want to talk to clause 40 of new Part 2 in Schedule 1. This is my first contribution on clause 40. I want to talk to clause 40 and to clause 43, but I may not be able to do that in the five short minutes that I\u2019ve got. Clause 40 is about the transfer of employees, and I want to know: did the Minister consult with the unions about this legislation that has been brought under urgency?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI want to refer to a press release put out by the Public Service Association (PSA), who are saying that \u201CThe Government\u2019s decision to ram legislation abolishing Te Aka Whai Ora, the M\u0101ori Health Authority, through the House under urgency is a travesty of democracy and an insult to te Tiriti o Waitangi. PSA Te Kaihaut\u016B M\u0101ori Janice Panoho says the indecent haste with which the legislation is being pushed through shows how desperate the Government is to avoid scrutiny of [any] divisive decision that has been universally panned by M\u0101ori\u201D and public health service experts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI want to say that in their press release, they said that \u201C \u2018M\u0101ori health workers, who are experts on how to address M\u0101ori health inequity, have also been shut out of this discussion \u2026 The debate about Te Aka Whai Ora goes to the heart of the wider debate about the relationship between M\u0101ori and the Crown and yet M\u0101ori, who will be the most impacted, have not even been afforded a conversation,\u2019 Panoho says. \u2018For such an important Constitutional issue it is vital that Parliamentary processes are used to allow proper public scrutiny and debate rather than to lock out people with dissenting voices.\u2019 Te P\u016Bkenga Here Tikanga Mahi, the Public Service Association represents about 30,000 workers in the health sector. Of the PSA\u2019s 92,000 members more than 10,000 identify as M\u0101ori. The PSA views the abolition of Te Aka Whai Ora as attack on Mana Motuhake and the ability of M\u0101ori to deliver health services for M\u0101ori in a way that works for M\u0101ori. \u2018Te Aka Whai Ora aimed to tackle the well documented barriers M\u0101ori face to accessing health care. There is clear evidence of M\u0101ori health inequalities that deserves to be addressed by more than empty slogans and a rushed parliamentary process \u2026 This Government promised evidence-based decisions, but like its decision to row back smoking reforms, which also impact M\u0101ori, it would rather embrace ideology than good public health policy.\u2019 \u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3719937a7904abcb8ea8e8bc57c7064\u0022\u003EMike Butterick\u003C/span\u003E: Where\u2019s the question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfe4fb18eb4c410b9d1250e94d883a25\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: The question was right at the beginning: did he meet with the PSA? Has he afforded the employees who are going to be impacted by clause 40, \u201CTransfer of employees of M\u0101ori Health Authority to Health New Zealand\u201D\u2014I am reading for the committee\u2019s benefit the press release from the PSA, who say they have not even been afforded the opportunity, the decency, to have any consultation about this legislation, which is being rushed through urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ESo my question to the Minister is: did you talk to the unions? Did you talk to any of the kaimahi? Do you think that it would have been appropriate to talk to your kaimahi M\u0101ori who work for Te Aka Whai Ora, who work in the health system, who have the responsibility, the weight, of delivering these health services for our wh\u0101nau? Did you talk to them about your proposed changes? Not you, Madam Chair\u2014to the Minister. Did the Minister meet with unions? Did he meet with delegates? Did he meet with kaimahi to talk about the abolition of Te Aka Whai Ora? Because it would appear, from the press release put out by the PSA, that that has not happened, and I think that is disgraceful. I look forward to the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u0022366254686be341b99a071ad7ec524eca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022366254686be341b99a071ad7ec524eca\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019d like to thank the members for their questions. I want to go back to the last question last night from member Utikere. He was asking again around the date in the future for locality plans, which is 2029, which I\u2019d already said was a placeholder for localities. He was asking how that number came to be. I said it was just a placeholder. It turns out, in further discussion with officials, that there are certainly clear precedents for the five-year period. I won\u2019t read through a range of legislation which has review periods of five years. One, two, three, four, five, six\u2014probably at least seven. Then it\u2019s also commented to me that it\u2019s also used in international instruments\u2014so a clear figure there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EAgain, the question was raised around the transfer arrangements. The transfer arrangements, as I discussed many times last night\u2014indeed, the member who\u2019s just taken her seat, the Hon Willow-Jean Prime, has also raised the question\u2014are consistent with the Health Sector (Transfers) Act, which was how people were transferred from the Ministry of Health and Health New Zealand into the M\u0101ori Health Authority anyway. In fact, member Jackson also asked exactly that same question. So it is the same process, actually in the same legislation, putting those people, repatriating them, back into Health New Zealand and the Ministry of Health.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EThe member also asked about data probity when that information is transferred back into those two organisations. What I\u2019ll say to that is it\u2019s consistent with all of Government data policies\u2014that transfer of information that will accompany the M\u0101ori Health Authority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EThe member this morning raised the question around clause 43(2) of new Part 2 in Schedule 1, which was also raised by member Willis and others during the debate last night, and that\u2019s around the \u201Creasonable consultation process before introducing any employment policy\u201D. I\u2019ll elaborate further on that, because the reply to that wasn\u2019t just that it\u2019s consistent with the Employment Relations Act, but it\u2019s also been copied across from existing schedules. It already sits there as part of the legislation\u2014that narrative, that wording, is already there\u2014and it just happens to be consistent with the Employment Relations Act as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003ETo the member who\u2019s just taken her seat, the question she asked at 21.46 last night, questions of timing\u2014already addressed that, thoroughly and multiple times during this debate, so I don\u2019t envisage going there again. The transfers Act, which I\u2019ve just described\u2014that describes a process by which the workforce will transfer back into Health New Zealand and the Ministry of Health. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EFurthermore, the good discussions I have had with the leadership of the M\u0101ori Health Authority give me every faith that they will address the concerns that the member has just raised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022 data-id=\u0022ff91dd8931bb4b299e39e311c5a6c825\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ff91dd8931bb4b299e39e311c5a6c825\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you for the opportunity to address the committee. I have a new contribution to our questions to the Minister. It\u2019s in new Part 2 inserted into Schedule 1, clause 36(4), and it\u2019s really related to the CEO of Te Aka Whai Ora. We have heard, at length, the lift and shift of our kaimahi from Te Aka Whai Ora to Te Whatu Ora, but in reading the fine print of new Part 2, we can see that the chief executive officer of Te Aka Whai Ora will not become an employee of Te Whatu Ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EMay I speak to the quality of this woman, Riana Manuel. She is an inspirational wahine M\u0101ori\u2014health leadership in action, homegrown in Hauraki, and uri of Ng\u0101ti P\u016Bkenga ki Manaia K\u0101inga, a wahine toa. She is well versed across the health system and appointed to lead, alongside Margie Apa, our new direction forward through Te Pae Ora. I was excited myself as a colleague and former kaimahi M\u0101ori in hauora to see these two w\u0101hine appointed to the helm of these waka hauora, Te Whatu Ora and Te Aka Whai Ora. And yet now we see the loss of talent to the health sector in Riana Manuel now transferring over to Te Whatu Ora, which is the right thing to do, really, because, you know, the vision was Te Waka Hourua\u2014that Te Aka Whai Ora and Te Whatu Ora would move as one\u2014taha M\u0101ori and taha tangata Tiriti. And yet in this legislation, we are losing one of our very critical health leaders who has moved us over a number of years to realising our first tino rangatiratanga model in hauora M\u0101ori history.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003ESo I come with solutions. I\u2019m trying to be positive in this space, despite the p\u0101pouri and the h\u0113manawa that I feel within my heart for hauora M\u0101ori today, and I offer to the Minister the opportunity to take transformational leadership and appoint Riana Manuel as a co-CEO with Margie Apa to lead Te Whatu Ora into the future. How wonderful would that be for both te iwi M\u0101ori and our tangata Tiriti to work together to lead Te Waka Hauora or Te Whatu Ora. That would give effect to the transfer, the vision, that Te Whatu Ora would be that vehicle to support improving M\u0101ori health outcomes\u2014if we honour the health leadership appointed by the boards, Te Whatu Ora and Te Aka Whai Ora, to lead the co-design of our new Waka Hauora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003ESo it is my proposal to the Minister that, actually, we don\u2019t need this clause in the legislation and we could remove it, and she could be moved, and that we recognise the mana of this woman, and her hap\u016B, her iwi, and her contributions to hauora M\u0101ori, and we put her in place as the co-CEO of Te Whatu Ora alongside Margie Apa. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a02e9e13785f42519de482df25d22c1f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a02e9e13785f42519de482df25d22c1f\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON (Whip\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022 data-id=\u0022ace3222416bd4049bf8cc4e2035928d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ace3222416bd4049bf8cc4e2035928d0\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and m\u014Drena, everyone. I have a series of questions for the Minister, particularly around new section 15, inserted by clause 11\u2014on page 4, last time I looked. What it\u2019s saying in subsection (a) is that Health New Zealand must take \u201Creasonable steps\u201D and, going further, \u201Cadministrative, analytical, or financial support where needed\u201D. The concerns and the question I have is: in the absence of baseline data\u2014which is what we have been advised; there hasn\u2019t been performance data arranged from the locality plans. In fact, I understand that we\u2019re still looking at data that\u2019s from the district health board era. What is it, and how is it, that the Minister\u2019s proposing to analyse and provide data so that this section can be met? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EA question I have is: what are the outcomes of the M\u0101ori commissioning for the blueprint of Te Aka Whai Ora? These are questions that I would expect that the Minister has, or has been briefed on, in preparation for this transfer, and, most specifically, how has it been upheld? Where and how is the locality plans\u2019 data going to be applied for Health New Zealand? If there is indeed an absence, how is the Minister going to understand the regional performances and the required investment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EAlso, I guess one of the other things that we have real concerns with: if there is an absence of this data in Te Aka Whai Ora, then one assumes there is an absence of data still in the early stages of those iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards. How exactly, in this period\u2014and I understand there are four months for the staff. I get that. Then there\u2019s five years and there\u2019s going to be a review. What is the proposition for us\u2014that we\u2019re able to keep monitoring of the data and that there is no drop? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EAnd, again, I have a common theme in my concerns for the preparation of Te Whatu Ora - Health New Zealand to receive this entity and the fact that a lot of that intel will be sitting in the very hands of the kaimahi and those on the ground, no doubt. So my question isn\u2019t asking whether there is data; my question is asking how the datasets are being gathered, how they can be reported on, and most specifically, from your perspective, how they can be monitored so that we can be assured there is absolutely no drop in performance. And what is the baseline of those? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003ESo I just want to emphasise there has been, again, the outcomes of M\u0101ori commissioning for, and the actual blueprint that has been analysed from, Te Aka Whai Ora, and how that has been gathered to move into the Health New Zealand - Te Whatu Ora space.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022e565730ae35b40f78980de3984263d9e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e565730ae35b40f78980de3984263d9e\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Chair. I acknowledge this is the first call I\u2019ll take in this debate, and so I want to begin by acknowledging as a first generation migrant to Aotearoa that a lot of the discourse that has landed us here is sort of a direct result of a pitting of M\u0101ori against migrant communities, particularly when it comes to health outcomes. I\u2019m here by virtue of Te Tiriti, and I have a strong sense of responsibility to not allow those narratives to take hold, and to push back against those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EBut in relationship to Part 2\u2014and I hope to make more substantive contributions in the third reading\u2014I was interested in just the line around \u201Call information and documents held by [Te Aka Whai Ora] are held by Health New Zealand\u201D. I wanted to pick one of the key initiatives of Te Aka Whai Ora, Te Rangatiratanga Raraunga M\u0101ori around M\u0101ori data sovereignty. This is one of the key initiatives that Te Aka Whai Ora was running, and it recognised that M\u0101ori data is protected under the Te Tiriti o Waitangi and the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. Right now, Te Aka Whai Ora is doing a piece of work with Te Whatu Ora and Manat\u016B Hauora to facilitate and support M\u0101ori to develop some framework for M\u0101ori by M\u0101ori, and I\u2019m interested to know how the Minister intends this piece of work to progress if all information and documents are transferred to Te Whatu Ora, effectively. And one of the key reasons why I ask this is that there have been incidents of data leaks from Te Whatu Ora, and these have compromised the personal information of people, and therefore if this work is now compromised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI hear the member from ACT is kind of, perhaps, making a little jab around speaking to the bill, but this is around the transfer of information, and therefore this is incredibly relevant. So I invite that ACT member to, actually, maybe read the bill in full rather than make random calls that are actually not related to what we\u2019re talking about. So thank you for those contributions that I personally didn\u2019t welcome. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EBut I\u2019m keen to get the Minister\u2019s reflection on what will happen in relationship to the initiatives regarding M\u0101ori data sovereignty; how does he intend for that data to be protected as it is transferred back to Te Whatu Ora, and whether he intends, as part of the transfer of information documents, for that piece of work to continue. We have seen, through other pieces of legislation, the need to commit to continuously do\u2014across all Government work\u2014initiatives in relationship to protecting M\u0101ori data. So it\u2019s not just a health issue, but I think information in relation to health is particularly sensitive, and this is why I want to bring up how a specific part of Part 2 of this bill impacts one of the key initiatives of Te Aka Whai Ora. I\u2019m just wondering whether, if there is an intent to continue this initiative, the resourcing of that initiative would change\u2014whether it would increase, whether it would decrease\u2014because, otherwise, this is one of the key initiatives that I think could be lost as a result of this piece of legislation, and it would be a deep, deep shame for our health space to not be honouring Te Tiriti via better protection of M\u0101ori data.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u0022ffcda0a840784fa8b498bbbcbfc36ba5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ffcda0a840784fa8b498bbbcbfc36ba5\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Again I thank the members for their questions. An intriguing proposition from the member\u2014not actually possible, because (1) you can have only one chief executive for an agency; and (2) it\u2019s a board appointment not a ministerial appointment. But I do want to reflect on the excellent working relationship I have had with the CEO and thank her for her professionalism.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003ETo the question that the member has raised, which is really good, around M\u0101ori outcomes and what we might look to be commissioning, they will be informed by several bodies of work. They will be informed by the good work that\u2019s already been done in Pae T\u016B and in Wakamaua\u2014the action plan. There were really good outcomes in there\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289c2b9f1e9a34b56aedac0b1e5adc51c\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re welcome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289847b1401f041c886dff17887c6e43e\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI\u003C/span\u003E: It was good\u2014it was good. My Government policy statement will also express the outcomes\u2014for example, immunisation. That will be very, very important to me. And it was another really good question around the baseline, actually. What will the baseline be so we can measure improvements? And what we will be needing to do is to inventory the data aggregation that has already occurred and what needs to occur to establish a baseline so we can measure outcomes. Part of that, as I described last night, will be dependent on the capability that each iwi-M\u0101ori partnership board has and how we need to all get them to one level, and quite quickly as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EAnd the other member has, again\u2014probably the third time the question on data probity has been raised. The data probity issues will follow exactly the same policies that all of Government is required to follow as it relates to data probity, so I do have confidence in that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0b18010100845ad82fbff1933cc5694\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0b18010100845ad82fbff1933cc5694\u0022\u003EDr CARLOS CHEUNG (National\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u00228e1bfde75c8440af8a6df2fdea95b6f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e1bfde75c8440af8a6df2fdea95b6f8\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe. Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you for allowing us to continue to prosecute Part 2. I want to draw the Minister of Health\u2019s attention to Schedule 2, which is on page 18 of this bill, and it sets out there its intent to repeal seemingly innocuous titles in some of the legislation that\u2019s listed there. It\u2019s got the Oranga Tamariki Act 1989 and the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System Act 2022. If we\u2019re going to repeal the role of the chief executive of the M\u0101ori Health Authority in those particular pieces of legislation, in light of the Ombudsman\u2019s report, in light of the challenges that Oranga Tamariki are struggling with at the moment, I want to propose to the Minister here, if he is of a mind, that in those particular Acts it describes some of the positions that will work with respect to those Acts, in looking after our tamariki under the Oranga Tamariki Act. In fact, it names the Director-General of Health; it names Health New Zealand more broadly speaking. But it doesn\u2019t actually put in there anything to do with the M\u0101ori directorate in Te Manat\u016B Hauora or a role specifically to identify M\u0101ori with respect to Oranga Tamariki. And we know the statistics there; I won\u2019t go over those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EBut I wonder, and my question to the Minister is, is he of a mind to ensure that the M\u0101ori voice, with respect to repealing the M\u0101ori Health Authority and the role of the chief executive in those pieces of legislation\u2014it\u2019s just going to continue to silence the M\u0101ori voice there. There can be an expectation that Health New Zealand will continue its role, and that\u2019s fine, but as I read through those particular\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7fce021e3414bc99bf92c9027f26ab8\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222257171281a0492f9255799276c9c19b\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, I was trying to catch my breath. Ha, ha! I was trying to catch my breath. So it does describe a number of roles, but with such an important role that Te Aka Whai Ora was playing with respect to these Acts, my question is pretty simple: just if the Minister is of a mind to make sure that the role that Te Aka Whai Ora have played\u2014he\u2019s already talked about how it\u2019ll be a straight transfer of those staff. It\u2019s already been described that the chief executive won\u2019t be. But the role was important\u2014the role that those staff were playing in making sure that the Oranga Tamariki Act 1989 and the Oversight of Oranga Tamariki System Act 2022 continue to do what they\u2019re intended to do, and that\u2019s to continue to support our wh\u0101nau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe final one I have on that one is the Therapeutic Products Act 2023. Now, we heard in the House yesterday how the Therapeutic Products Act is a bad bill or a bad piece of legislation, etc. It is quite simple in that repeal\u2014that it once again takes out Te Aka Whai Ora, the M\u0101ori Health Authority. The question I have with respect to that is: is the intention from this Government and the Minister, with respect to the work that was done on rongo\u0101 M\u0101ori, which was protected by Te Aka Whai Ora as it went through the Therapeutic Products Bill as we were putting it in at the time\u2014is there any provisional thought by the Minister or this Government, and I suspect we might come there at some point in time in the future again when the Therapeutic Products Bill will be put into the House. Is there an intention to continue to offer the kinds of protections to rongo\u0101 M\u0101ori, and how can that be done if we\u2019re repealing the role of the M\u0101ori Health Authority in that particular Act? Those are my questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u0022018debc30bbb405e9fcfedf526b193ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022018debc30bbb405e9fcfedf526b193ef\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I thank the member the Hon Peeni Henare for his questions. This is actually quite a narrow bill, and the question was raised around Schedule 2, which is mostly required to adapt to places in the legislation where the M\u0101ori Health Authority appears. Clearly, if it doesn\u2019t exist any more, that legislation needs to be changed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve talked about the M\u0101ori voice quite extensively through the debate yesterday, and so I don\u2019t envisage covering that again. However, even though people will transfer, of course many of those functions will also transfer into health. We shouldn\u2019t imagine that those functions are disappearing. They\u2019ll transfer into Health New Zealand; they\u2019ll transfer into the M\u0101ori Health Authority. There were some questions around the Therapeutic Products Bill, but it is outside the scope of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u002252098dbda525486e9f422bb90a7cb2bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252098dbda525486e9f422bb90a7cb2bc\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora. Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you, Minister. I\u2019m glad you\u2019re enjoying our questions. We\u2019ve got quite a few more, so thank you for your response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EI wanted to come to Schedule 2 again. Last night, I spoke about transfer of undertakings, which is an incredibly important area, particularly for those of us who\u2019ve been involved in the union. This has been a huge kaupapa for many of our workers. But I just wanted to elaborate on what our tuahine Willow-Jean Prime talked about in Schedule 2, in terms of the consultation particularly with the PSA. In a former role, I was the Minister of Employment, and that work was embellished by the Hon Carmel Sepuloni. In that role, myself and Minister Sepuloni, we rolled out employment strategies that were incredibly important. Now, that hasn\u2019t been touched on in the debate so far, but they were incredibly important, and I\u2019m proud of the work I did and proud of the work that Minister Sepuloni did in terms of our workers. They tapped into every area of the workforce. And in this PSA area\u2014and I felt the Minister has only lightly traversed that. My chair at the time was a woman by the name of Janice Panoho, and Jan was a tremendous chair\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220668380ee6c24378809cc8e5dd411b43\u0022\u003ESam Uffindell\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, come on, Willie\u2014just the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203b1bfe35e594be7936e50dbfa9c7769\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: I know that member over there is not interested, because we know they\u2019re not interested in workers. But Janice Panoho, who was a long\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c46b450053464930b11f92d439bf1a98\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ec61c06e8224a1f875ed4cc7e8f4bcc\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: They can laugh at it, but we treat this very seriously. Jan\u2019s a longtime chair of the PSA. She was in touch with me. She\u2019s been in touch with me over the bill, and she has made it very clear that there are real concerns for kaimahi, for workers. As I said, Jan\u2019s been with the PSA close to 40 years. She wants to know how some of those cultural obligations are going to be traversed; what type of respect, given the rhetoric from particularly the coalition partners in terms of the disrespect to the reo\u2014you know, they\u2019re not interested in the M\u0101ori language being at the front of anything. How are those workers\u2019 cultural backgrounds going to be respected in terms of the transfer? Is the reo going to be respected? Is the way that they work, which is a unique way, a different type of way, a different type of style, going to be embraced in the new entity?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EOn top of that, I need to draw the Minister\u2019s attention, in terms of new Part 2 inserted into Schedule 1, to clause 43, \u201CEmployment Policies\u201D on page 13, subclause (1)(b), where it is very clear that an employee\u2014and it says very clearly\u2014and I don\u2019t think this question has been asked. It says very clearly that an employee \u201Cmay be replaced by Health New Zealand by written notice to that employee.\u201D That goes against everything we know that is right in industrial relations. There cannot be some unilateral declaration, no unilateral declaration from anyone, with regard to workers. You cannot say, \u201CWell, there you go. See you later. The job\u2019s over.\u201D We work in a world, in terms of our fair bargaining, where there has to be some consultation, there has to be a reciprocal relationship, and a worker has to have some rights. Particularly in this area where there are cultural obligations, reo obligations, community obligations, hap\u016B obligations, iwi obligations, surely an employer doesn\u2019t have that unilateral right just to send a letter to say, \u201CThere you go. No more job. See you later; you\u2019re on your bike.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EI need some clarity from the Minister over this so that we can give some guidance to workers out there, so that Janice Panoho, who today is still soldiering on despite what\u2019s happened\u2014she\u2019ll work with what\u2019s in front of her; that\u2019s the reality. Whoever\u2019s the Government, our people will have to work with them. But she needs some security and some support with regard to how the workers will be treated. What is the security over this? Are we going to just have this type of clause or will that clause be reviewed? Will there be some meaningful\u2014as my tuahine Willow-Jean Prime has said\u2014meaningful consultation with our M\u0101ori entities, M\u0101ori workers, and the union movement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EThis is a huge kaupapa, Madam Chair, so I urge the Minister to meet with our people. But I ask that question again: clause 43(1)(b), in terms of Health New Zealand, do they have their unilateral right? Yes or no?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022 data-id=\u00228997090258c846b0b9a01ec6193be147\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228997090258c846b0b9a01ec6193be147\u0022\u003EDr HAMISH CAMPBELL (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u00221eff44ac94884b3a8d38e8d90d9d2dfc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221eff44ac94884b3a8d38e8d90d9d2dfc\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I actually have two questions which I will try and squeeze into the five minutes, with the risk that I might not get 10 minutes to cover them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI want to ask\u2014and it\u2019s my first time asking\u2014questions about replacement section 43, inserted by Schedule 1, and employment policies. My point is a different one to those that have just been raised and have been raised about this section by other members. I have been listening to the entire debate, so I know that this one hasn\u2019t been covered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ESo replacement section 43, inserted by Schedule 1, is about employment policies: \u201CThe employment policies of the M\u0101ori Health Authority\u2014(a) continue to apply after the commencement date\u2014(i) in relation to an employee who becomes an employee of Health New Zealand by operation of clause 36; and (ii) with all necessary modifications;\u201D. What are the necessary modifications?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EIt also says that they may be replaced by Health New Zealand by written notice to that employee. I do want to add my support for the questions asked by the Hon Willie Jackson regarding that simple replacement by a written notice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EBut an employment policy that I want to ask about in particular is for te reo M\u0101ori bonuses. So we heard the Minister for the Public Service very early on in this term of Government say that she was seeking advice on how to stop the bonuses being negotiated in the future. We know that the Public Service Association, once again, on behalf of its many members\u2014not just M\u0101ori but, in fact, all of those who think it is important to have fluency in te reo M\u0101ori for their jobs\u2014is deeply disappointed with the threat from the new Public Service Minister to remove allowances recognising competency in te reo across the public sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EWhat my question to the Minister is: will Te Aka Whai Ora staff who are being transferred to Health New Zealand be entitled to te reo M\u0101ori competency payments and allowances? Will they be eligible for te reo M\u0101ori training and learning? I note many comments from others who waded in on this debate about whether this should be taxpayer-funded or not, saying that this Government actually campaigned on getting rid of them and stopping them in, as the Minister said, circumstances where they are not relevant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ETo the Minister: is proficiency in te reo M\u0101ori relevant to the mahi that those working in Te Aka Whai Ora do, the services that they provide? Will policies regarding that transfer to Health New Zealand? Will they be honoured, or will there be necessary modifications, and could it simply be replaced by Health New Zealand providing a written notice to that employee?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI believe te reo M\u0101ori is so important in the delivery of health services to our wh\u0101nau that this is something we need an assurance on. We need a guarantee that that will be honoured by Health New Zealand, and in Minister Willis\u2019 review that she\u2019s doing of this, with an aim to ensure that there is a stop to any bonuses being negotiated in the future, what assurance can the Minister give us that te reo M\u0101ori competency will be encouraged by kaimahi transferring from Te Aka Whai Ora into Health New Zealand, and that bonuses for that proficiency of te reo M\u0101ori, their competency, the skills that they bring to that organisation will be honoured?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u0022aee9de8cbb9242aa9edad8e40e237e43\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aee9de8cbb9242aa9edad8e40e237e43\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I thank the members for their questions\u2014again, questions around replacement section 43, inserted by Schedule 1. The member over here was further probing around the appropriate transfer of people and their functions into the Ministry of Health and Health New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EThere are several parts to that. First of all, the Ministry of Health has maintained a M\u0101ori health directorate, led by John Whaanga, and he, amongst others, including myself, will keep oversight and overview of the appropriate transfer of people from the M\u0101ori Health Authority into the Ministry of Health and Health New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EFurthermore, in replacement section 43(2), I\u2019ve been advised that the particular words \u201Cmaterial effect on that employee\u201D are specific words that trigger good faith expectations. The member who has just taken her seat was also asking questions around replacement section 43, and I\u2019ve been advised that existing terms and conditions will carry across. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u00227c511f44296a4cc39a2c38fd103f8a33\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c511f44296a4cc39a2c38fd103f8a33\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E I actually just would love to get a little more information out of you on that advice, Minister. I was interested because it looked like there was an assumption that this was a technical redundancy. While the policy I looked at is something that requires further consultation, the movement of people across isn\u2019t. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EYet there is such a fundamental change here, because people have really engaged in something that has a kind of passion principle behind it. This is something where there is a cultural interest that is so strong. So there will be a whole lot of people in the situation now where they\u2019re going to be looking at whether they even want to be in the new structure. What it does is it gives you a workforce that are forced into a situation that they might be suspicious of; it may be that, if there wasn\u2019t urgency and there was time and there was consultation, we might be able to bring those people and their goodwill with us. After all, that\u2019s really what good faith is about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ESo I wondered if you had had advice about this being a technical redundancy\u2014because you\u2019ve treated this like it\u2019s a technical redundancy. The Minsters and advisers seem to have treated this like it\u2019s a technical redundancy; so we\u2019re just replacing the name of the company with another as if it didn\u2019t matter. But actually, in the world that we live in, I think what we have learnt very much in the employment law space is that it\u2019s incredibly important that we are dealing with individuals and we use the best of their talents. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EWhat I\u2019m concerned about here is that, because of urgency, which is sort of aggravating the situation quite a lot, there is no period where the Minister and the Ministry of Health will go through a process of opting in and out based on the substantive needs. So I wondered what advice the Minister had had on whether this was to be treated like a technical redundancy or whether this was something that was much more substantive and important, and whether there was advice as to other ways of treating the situation. That will probably feed into the proposal that I\u2019ve got to amend this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI would be interested in whether there is an appetite for amending the process here so that there was a process that people went through and talked through the implications for their own role and whether that materially affected their own role and their desire to do it in the current structure. Because it\u2019s going to be so important to whether this actually works in bringing up the health of M\u0101ori people; that the people involved are not dragged horses, they are actually participants\u2014willing participants\u2014and are giving their absolute best. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EWe know that this is a field where people don\u2019t earn as much as they should. We\u2019re not flush with money in this country\u2014[Interruption] We are not. It\u2019s actually a shame, and it\u2019s one that I will stand by: that my purpose for being here is to make sure that we start to reprioritise people like this, we start to value this kind of work, because it\u2019s incredibly important. When I hear the sniggering on the other side, I am worried, because it\u2019s flippancy; it\u2019s treating people like they are commodities. It actually comes absolutely back to what I am saying, because it is all about not treating people like they are commodities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EThey are precious in this space; there are far too few of them with the capacity to do this job well and to have the sensitivity, and to treat them like a commodity and just shift them across to an entirely different mentality without that kind of discussion and time to come to terms with taking a very different role, perhaps, or perhaps there is a negotiation of their role\u2014all the good that can be done by that process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI would be interested to know whether there\u2019s been advice on that issue and whether the Minister would have an appetite for an amendment, which I could draft easily, that gave them the right to crystallise a redundancy if they didn\u2019t like the job that they were doing or to actually negotiate a role in the new environment that\u2019s going to work best for New Zealanders and for M\u0101ori, who have the lowest statistics. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022c8d5038c6b714f3bbf729459f706a761\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c8d5038c6b714f3bbf729459f706a761\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I take the next call, I\u2019d just like to reiterate something that the member in the Chair last night explained to members in the House: the five-minute limit is a limit, not a target and, in order to keep the flow of interaction between the Minister and members, we target questions\u2014so just to put that reminder out there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u0022a6726ae7a7ae474881e819b2a0433832\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a6726ae7a7ae474881e819b2a0433832\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. And I heed that request and that advice that you\u2019ve given. I will note, though, that we have tried to engage in backwards and forwards questions with the Minister, but he didn\u2019t actually take us up on that, so you\u2019ve seen us revert back to five-minute contributions. There was an invitation last night to have that question exchange, and it didn\u2019t actually happen. So if the Minister is now prepared to have that backwards and forwards with us\u2014there has been some hesitancy, for fear that the debate will collapse or time won\u2019t be given to carry on that questioning, because we haven\u2019t actually seen the Minister being prepared to engage in a series of questions like that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EHowever, I\u2019m coming on to a new part\u2014[Interruption] Go back and watch the Hansard\u2014you\u2019ll see it. I\u2019m coming on to a new Part, Schedule 2, \u201CConsequential amendments to enactments\u201D. This was raised by the Hon Peeni Henare, and he used the example which falls in one of my portfolios, which is Oranga Tamariki. And the Minister, in his response to that, was very flippant and, basically, said that all it is doing is deleting the references to the M\u0101ori Health Authority, as if they are inconsequential to the Acts that they are in, the roles that those organisations play, the functions that they perform. So, without repeating the contribution from a previous member, I picked out another piece of legislation\u2014\u201CDisabled Persons Community Welfare Act 1975\u201D\u2014where, in Schedule 2 \u201CConsequential amendments to enactments\u201D, it says it will repeal the definition of the M\u0101ori Health Authority in section 2; in section 4(e), it will delete the M\u0101ori Health Authority; in section 25C(3)(d), it will delete the M\u0101ori Health Authority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ENow, of course, we are doing this all off our phones and tablets at the moment. I\u2019ve gone and pulled up that particular piece of legislation where this consequential amendment has effect. And it\u2019s to section 4\u2014I\u2019m just picking out one of them. It is not simply removing a reference to the M\u0101ori Health Authority and that it is inconsequential\u2014that all we\u2019ve done is remove that\u2014because, when you look at what the purpose of having the M\u0101ori Health Authority listed in that Act actually is, when you just simply remove the M\u0101ori Health Authority, you are removing them from performing a function under that Act to deliver what is expected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ESo, in this case, it says in section 4 of the Disabled Persons Community Welfare Act, the aims of the Minister and the director-general: \u201CWithout limiting in any way the functions and powers conferred on the Minister or on the Director-General by this Act, the aims of the Minister and the Director-General in the exercise of those functions and powers shall include\u2014\u201D, and it lists them, (a), (b), (c), (d)\u2014for example, \u201C(a) to assist and encourage disabled persons to become socially and financially independent: (b) to promote schemes providing for the assessment, work experience, training, sheltered employment, and other suitable activities of disabled persons: (c) to promote the general well-being, recreational opportunities, and welfare in the community of disabled [peoples]\u201D, and it goes on. It says in section (4)(e)\u2014the one that we are repealing. And we\u2019re simply just deleting the reference to the M\u0101ori Health Authority. In this Act, it is \u201Cto foster close working relationships, and (as appropriate) consult, with government departments, Health New Zealand, the M\u0101ori Health Authority, and other bodies, organisations, and professions concerned with rehabilitation and training of disabled persons and their placement in employment:\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ENow, I would argue that the reference to the M\u0101ori Health Authority in this piece of legislation was not tokenistic. There was a deliberate intent as to why to include the M\u0101ori Health Authority in the list of organisations that the Minister for Whaikaha and the director-general will foster relationships with those organisations. Why is that? So that they can have better communication, they can be better informed, they can take into account M\u0101ori perspectives\u2014hauora M\u0101ori and wellbeing, for example. So, by deleting the reference to the M\u0101ori Health Authority and not replacing it with something like\u2014I mean, Health New Zealand is already there. So, if Health New Zealand could already do this, why did it also list the M\u0101ori Health Authority? Because this legislation recognised that the M\u0101ori Health Authority provided something unique to what the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00226bc5e6d1e07945fa9ce9aa841588bab9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226bc5e6d1e07945fa9ce9aa841588bab9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u0022273007d80a324ee7a5a1b3016bb8d98b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022273007d80a324ee7a5a1b3016bb8d98b\u0022\u003EHon JENNY SALESA (Labour\u2014Panmure-\u014Ct\u0101huhu):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you so much, Madam Chair. Kia ora koutou. E te M\u0101ngai o te Whare, thank you for this opportunity to take a call on the Pae Ora (Disestablishment of M\u0101ori Health Authority) Amendment Bill. Before I do, I would like to acknowledge my friend and colleague Fa\u2019an\u0101n\u0101 Efeso Collins. It was around about this time last week that we all were shocked and are still in disbelief about the sudden passing of Fa\u2019an\u0101n\u0101 Efeso Collins, someone who I\u2019ve known for over 30 years; a son of Samoa, a strong advocate for M\u0101ori, and a strong advocate for South Auckland. I know that, if Fa\u2019an\u0101n\u0101 Efeso Collins were still here, he would be in this Chamber, debating this bill, because this is one of those things that he was a strong advocate for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EIf I could just say, one of the things we know about young M\u0101ori men, including young M\u0101ori Pacific\u2014many of us have M\u0101ori in our blood as well, because the mix between the M\u0101ori Pacific is quite prominent right now\u2014is too many of our people die very young. We die younger. M\u0101ori die younger than general New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EI would like to just acknowledge just how much of a leader Fa\u2019an\u0101n\u0101 Efeso Collins was, and how much of a strong leader he was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EThank you for the opportunity to discuss this bill. One of the things that I actually have, as a person who worked in the health sector\u2014and this will age me\u2014is I worked in an organisation called North Health in Auckland, in T\u0101maki-makau-rau, which was established in the 80s. During that time, North Health was the funder which actually funded \u201Cby M\u0101ori, for M\u0101ori\u201D health services for the first time. Te Wh\u0101nau o Waipareira in 1984 was funded by North Health. It was under the leadership of Sir Rob Cooper and Gwen Tepania-Palmer. One of the reasons why \u201Cby M\u0101ori, for M\u0101ori\u201D health services was created was because, as a country, Aotearoa New Zealand, we did not know how to serve M\u0101ori people in the right way. The inequity that was then, in the 1980s, and actually going back to the 1840s\u2014we still see such a huge disparity between M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori. The reason why \u201Cby M\u0101ori, for M\u0101ori\u201D was funded was because there was the hope that at some point in the future, they would be better served.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224dab5227fa634ef880b751517a4d8d6c\u0022\u003ESam Uffindell\u003C/span\u003E: How does this relate to Part 2?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228134fd99cfcf4d878898cbb315215804\u0022\u003EHon JENNY SALESA\u003C/span\u003E: Can I say that my questions to the Minister\u2014I will come back to the bill. I would like to ask questions of the Minister about Part 2\u2014clause 41 of new Part 2 to Schedule 1\u2014which is about employment being continuous for the purpose of certain entitlements. My specific question is basically\u2014I would like the Minister to outline this\u2014what are the transitions that are in place for current employees of the M\u0101ori Health Authority following its disestablishment? This is important because we also need to highlight the welfare of those Te Aka Whai Ora employees, the M\u0101ori Health Authority employees who are currently working right now. When they are being transitioned to Health New Zealand, there is also that issue of ensuring that they are actually served quite well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EThe second question for the Minister is: what specific support measures will be implemented to support these affected employees that are being disestablished, in terms of Te Aka Whai Ora? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EThird question: how will the Minister plan to maintain and enhance M\u0101ori health initiatives and outcomes without specialised focus provided by the M\u0101ori Health Authority, in terms of employment and in terms of ensuring project continuity? Because the M\u0101ori Health Authority are the ones that actually hold the contracts with \u201Cby M\u0101ori, for M\u0101ori\u201D health providers. How do we assure, as a country, the services at the end of the day? Because we are in here to serve our people. How do we ensure that those services continue, that the welfare of the staff is actually enhanced and continues on as they transfer to Health New Zealand? Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u00227e2be9f5b6bf443ab6399eb5ce90a14f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e2be9f5b6bf443ab6399eb5ce90a14f\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. To address some of those questions\u2014the member raised the question of transfer of staff to the Ministry of Health and Health New Zealand\u2014I\u2019ve already described, in my first and second reading speeches, the hopes I have that staff will \u201Cjoin me and guide me in the pathway forward for M\u0101ori health and M\u0101ori health outcomes\u201D. I have a very clear hope that what we\u2019re proposing here is something that they can say: \u201CI want to be a part of that; I believe in the outcomes. This is a different way to what I was anticipating, but I want to be a part of that\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EThe member raised the question of legislative compliance, using the example of disability, and clearly, in her own words, said Health New Zealand will still be consulted. So, remember, the parts of the M\u0101ori Health Authority\u2014the substantial operational parts\u2014will still transfer to Health New Zealand. So, of course, they\u2019ll still be consulted. That expertise will still be there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003ETo the last member, who asked the question\u2014it had already been covered several times previously\u2014the first question: existing terms and conditions transfer across. As I\u2019ve said before, the M\u0101ori Health directorate, inside the Ministry of Health, will have input into the appropriate transfer of people, into the two respective homes. I\u2019m very focused on continuity of services. That\u2019s really important. We\u2019re going to pick up from the learnings that we\u2019ve had and advance them forward. It\u2019s really important we\u2019ve got that continuity. On one level, the $50 million immunisation project that we announced before Christmas is an example of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022 data-id=\u0022e78776007ca648d49fdf505d71420731\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e78776007ca648d49fdf505d71420731\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E M\u014Drena, Madam Chair. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa e te Whare. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EJust to the Minister\u2019s previous comments on hopes, and the \u201Chope\u201D of one thing and the \u201Chope\u201D of another thing for M\u0101ori. It\u2019s a good title for a song, but it certainly does not give us a surety. The \u201Chope\u201D of how M\u0101ori will work together and do our best is not good enough to be sure, and that\u2019s demonstrated very much in the title of this bill: the \u201CDisestablishment of M\u0101ori Health Authority\u201D. Those words are so frightfully offensive, and I find it difficult to even repeat. But it is the disestablishment of M\u0101ori. So if we can just let that sink in a bit. What that says, the message to M\u0101ori, is: you do not matter in the way in which you thought you did and that you hoped that you did, in this way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EWhen the Te Aka Whai Ora idea came to be, many M\u0101ori providers got really excited and organised and got themselves prepared, because it\u2019s based on \u201Cby M\u0101ori, for M\u0101ori\u201D. This bill is about \u201Cby non-M\u0101ori, for M\u0101ori\u201D\u2014that\u2019s what this bill is about. It has this \u201Call New Zealanders\u201D, which I keep hearing around particularly the left side of the House, and it is offensive, because what it suggests is that we are all the same. It takes us back into \u201CWe\u2019re all New Zealanders, therefore we\u2019re all the same\u201D, and \u201Cthe same\u201D that it talks about is the white same. It\u2019s the P\u0101keh\u0101 same. It is not the M\u0101ori same. So I want to make those points.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EWe call that, in our reality, a white-out. That\u2019s what this bill is telling us. This is a white-out. This is taking us back into a ministry. And why I can talk like this with confidence is because I worked for Ng\u0101ti Hine Health Trust for more than 20 years, under the grace and the kindness of Erima Henare, of Rob Cooper, of many, many M\u0101ori leaders that said the systems, the pedagogy, the theories failed us. Unfortunately, this bill is taking us right back into that, and it is forcing us to swallow it yet again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EI was asked this morning on radio why do I think this is happening, and I said because the left side of the House believes that they know better for M\u0101ori. They believe that they know better; that we couldn\u2019t possibly make up our own M\u0101ori minds about what works for us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229cdaf4bcac094190981b02dd73642487\u0022\u003ESam Uffindell\u003C/span\u003E: That is what the left side thinks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204b78ef78bb0435d86a2151a059284a4\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI\u003C/span\u003E: So despite the nonsense carrying on while I\u2019m speaking, as a M\u0101ori\u2014and I can carry this conversation better than any other P\u0101keh\u0101 in this room. And excuse me, Madam Chair, I\u2019m talking like this because every time I hear \u201Call New Zealanders\u201D, that just whites out M\u0101ori people, so we all become this great big \u201Call New Zealanders\u201D\u2014whatever that is. We are M\u0101ori beings. We are human beings. We are M\u0101ori beings. We are sovereign in that regard. We are the other partners in Te Tiriti. We are the reason why\u2014we are the reason why\u2014any non-M\u0101ori gets to live here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003ESo I want to make these points really clear. We don\u2019t want any more of this \u201CWe know better for you, M\u0101ori m\u0101, so can you just keep quiet\u201D, right? And, by the way, we\u2019re going to move all of the staff that are M\u0101ori over to this P\u0101keh\u0101 system yet again, and they\u2019re going to have to tolerate and swallow it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EI know this is not as granular as where the stages are in the bill, Madam Chair\u2014I realise that\u2014but I wanted to speak on a more grandeur level, which is a M\u0101ori, mana motuhake level. I wanted to take it there. Because the minute we get into granular, we forget who we\u2019re here for. We can. It tends to take us right down into the technicality of it all, forgetting that ko te mea nui, ko te tangata t\u0113n\u0101 [the most important thing is humanity], which is why I want to make these points in this particular way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EIf we go back, which it seems like we will, it will take us back into a system that failed us. Why do I know? I fought against it for more than 20 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003ETe reo M\u0101ori is an issue, so the point that my colleague made earlier\u2014\u201CTe reo, what\u2019s that got to do with it?\u201D It\u2019s got everything to do with it. When our people were punished and stopped from speaking M\u0101ori, what they were stopped from was being M\u0101ori\u2014when our people were stopped from speaking M\u0101ori, they were hindered and stopped from being M\u0101ori. Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u0022db5b3e2cd5ee4d41a67319181fbccd03\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db5b3e2cd5ee4d41a67319181fbccd03\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd59311b64a84e10b748a1779817603c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd59311b64a84e10b748a1779817603c\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora. Thank you, Madam Chair. My question, Minister, is a supplementary in a sense to my colleague Willow-Jean\u2019s point about t\u0101ngata whaikaha. We know, as she has pointed out in the consequential amendments, the removal of the M\u0101ori Health Authority for the Disabled Persons Community Welfare Act has the effect of amplifying the intersectional harm that we see to M\u0101ori. Underpinning it is the perverse logic that taking further rights from those whose needs are being least met somehow makes us a more equal country, and it does the opposite of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003ESo my question to the Minister in terms of t\u0101ngata whaikaha, our disabled M\u0101ori community, is: to what extent did you speak to them and approach that community and understand the importance\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee8a96ca86b5417a9c4795441fd7de8e\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I\u2019m sorry to interrupt the member, but the clock actually hasn\u2019t started after the member\u2019s time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022365a1ede38274021b39d1e70411d52bf\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m OK with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aee473dc5dec441498cc03364f1a3037\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228af39ebec750409fa986c4f038f06f90\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: My question to the Minister is: to what extent has he communicated directly with that disabled M\u0101ori community? To what extent has he considered the impact on that community, whose needs are particular? And there\u2019s very good literature that shows the need for access to health services that provide cultural, holistic connections to te ao M\u0101ori, an essential to maintaining hauora and wellbeing for t\u0101ngata whaikaha.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e3118bcc17e4eb9a75e4b2c402e911e\u0022\u003ESam Uffindell\u003C/span\u003E: What clause are you on?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf83a1016e5a486482b63c62237ce56e\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m on the consequential amendments to enactments, in Schedule 2. There\u2019s a specific opportunity here for the Minister to recognise the importance of us representing that community, to recognise the failure of the current health system, to recognise those holistic needs of M\u0101ori in a wider sense but particularly this community, and both tangata Tiriti and tangata whenua disabled communities are poorly having their needs met in our health system. So, also, my question to the Minister is: how does he intend to ensure that t\u0101ngata whaikaha M\u0101ori and wh\u0101nau hau\u0101 are represented on the Hauora M\u0101ori Advisory Committee? Are they represented? How will they be represented? And, if the Minister is going to remove the M\u0101ori Health Authority as a reference in the Disabled Persons Community Welfare Act 1975, what is he going to replace it with to ensure that that community is fully represented and understood so that the intersectional harm and intersectional failings we have in our health service do not continue to be perpetuated?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EIt is bad enough that we are getting rid of the M\u0101ori Health Authority\u2014or rather, the Minister, this Government, is getting rid of the M\u0101ori Health Authority\u2014but let us not amplify the harm on those who are most vulnerable within that system, which includes that community of our t\u0101ngata whaikaha. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022 data-id=\u0022aeedd3fe47bb4fa597c598e23a51637a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aeedd3fe47bb4fa597c598e23a51637a\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, I\u2019d like to table an amendment to the Pae Ora (Disestablishment of M\u0101ori Health Authority) Amendment Bill. My amendment follows on from my k\u014Drero earlier: that, in new Part 2 in Schedule 1, delete clause 36(4), page 10, lines 39 and 40 are deleted. And it goes back to my k\u014Drero on the importance of the CEO of Te Aka Whai Ora being retained within the organisation and the lift and shift of Te Aka Whai Ora staff over to the new entity. E te Minita, he tono t\u0113nei kia pupuri tonu ki t\u0113nei rangatira hauora o t\u0101tou. Kia haere tonu \u0101na mahi i roto i Te Whatu Ora. In\u0101ianei me ng\u0101 tau kei te haere mai. Koia taku tono. Kia ora, t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E[Minister, this is a plea to you to hold on to this esteemed health leader of ours, so that their work may continue within Te Whatu Ora, now and in the years to come. That is my plea. Thank you all.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u0022169afef640824b2882e0c0463f617ea0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022169afef640824b2882e0c0463f617ea0\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair; thank you very much. Can I tautoko, first of all, the words of the Hon Jenny Salesa. The Efeso Collins death has had a huge effect, I think, on this Parliament. I congratulated Parliament the other day, actually, on TV\u2014people right across, from all sides, who paid their respects, which I think brought the best out in Parliament. We\u2019re all feeling those effects, and many of us, from all sides of the House, will go and pay our respects tomorrow. I support what the Hon Jenny Salesa said: Efeso Collins would have been right in here asking questions about the effects of this bill on our communities. I have a specific question, of course, that I\u2019m going to come to now. And we have traversed the area in terms of transfer of undertakings, which are incredibly important, and I think the Minister of Health has tried to answer that, or has answered that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EI have another specific question\u2014and we\u2019re looking at new Part 2, clause 40, in Schedule 1\u2014and it\u2019s in that transfer of undertakings area again, and I\u2019ll come down to subclause (3). You\u2019ll see, Madam Chair, the points that are made: \u201C(a) on the commencement date, Health New Zealand and the union are parties to a new collective: (b) the terms and conditions of the new collective agreement are the same as the earlier agreement, subject to any necessary modifications:\u201D. My question centres around paragraph (c) of clause 40(3), where \u201Cthe employee is covered by the new collective agreement as long as they remain a member of the union.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003ENow, of course, that is something that we, as a Government\u2014and I\u2019m here with our main spokesperson, Camilla Belich\u2014would insist on: that that type of clause be in any type of agreement. So we\u2019re pleased with that. But the different set up in terms of M\u0101ori and M\u0101ori health actually has seen a number of our people not in unions. I\u2019m a person who will always try and organise them and get them involved in unions, but for whatever reason some of our people choose not to go down that track, which is something the other side would always support\u2014they\u2019d always support them not being in unions. With that being the case, what are the plans for these types of workers who transfer across? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll ask the Minister so it\u2019s very clear\u2014paragraph (c) of clause 40(3): \u201Cthe employee is covered by the new collective agreement as long as they remain a member of the union.\u201D So, if they\u2019re not a member of the union\u2014as I said, many of our workers, kaimahi, choose not to be, which is disappointing\u2014what are the plans from the Minister and the organisation with regards to those people? Those people still have rights. They\u2019re still upholders of our culture, of our reo. They\u2019re still advancing the kaupapa in terms of M\u0101ori health. They\u2019re an integral part, have been an integral part, of the M\u0101ori Health Authority. Will those workers be dismissed? Will they be sidelined? What is the plan? Has the Minister thought outside the box with regards to this, given that that point is very clear? \u201CThe employee is covered by the new collective agreement as long as they remain a member of the union.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003ENow, as we know, the National Party are not particularly good supporters of anyone who joins unions. In fact, the strategy has been to discourage these people from joining unions, because they\u2019re into individual rights and the free market and everyone making a choice. So that type of decision, some of our people, for different reasons, find that culturally offensive\u2014they see that\u2019s a breach of their rights as an individual. So, again, I ask the Minister: what is the plan for those kaimahi and our people who decide that joining the union is not an option for them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00226e96048b5ec24e2c91d51102677a6655\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e96048b5ec24e2c91d51102677a6655\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I just want to mention to the committee that I\u2019ve been watching the debate very closely, and I also was in here last night as the debate was going through. I\u2019ve heard many calls on dissatisfaction over the bill itself, I\u2019ve heard the Minister answer questions about employment and the structural changes that he intends, and I\u2019ve also heard answers around the disability questions that have been asked. I am looking for very new questions, not speeches of dissatisfaction. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u00227ac4ddcbdea9411cba249c7bab631638\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ac4ddcbdea9411cba249c7bab631638\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, for that guidance. I\u2019ve got three distinct questions that I hope to get addressed. I totally understand we cannot, for the Minister of Health to answer\u2014and I understand the answers I may get may not be satisfactory, but when I asked about one of Te Aka Whai Ora\u2019s key initiatives around M\u0101ori data sovereignty, I only had the part around data breaches being addressed. So I\u2019m just\u2014not with the hope of being repetitive, but just in the hope that it actually gets addressed, around whether Te Aka Whai Ora\u2019s initiative around M\u0101ori data sovereignty will continue, and commitments from the Minister around the initiative continuing as we see Te Aka Whai Ora being disestablished. As I\u2019ve said, this is because it is a key Tiriti obligation of the Crown to protect M\u0101ori data sovereignty, and so I\u2019m keen to get a sense of where that is heading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThe other question I had was\u2014I know we\u2019ve been canvassing employment issues with a degree of detail, but I was interested in particularly getting a sense as to the ethnic wage gap, which we know that different agencies have\u2014because there\u2019s different levels of reporting around the ethnic wage gap, yet we know that it is quite present across Government agencies and in the private sector as well. But I\u2019m curious to get a sense of what level of commitment and analysis the Minister has engaged on the impacts of reductions of the ethnic wage gap as part of the disestablishment of Te Aka Whai Ora, because Te Aka Whai Ora presented an opportunity, by having a \u201Cby M\u0101ori, for M\u0101ori\u201D approach, to actually address that ethnic wage gap, and gender wage gap as well, that is present particularly in the health sector. So I wanted to get an understanding of whether any analysis was done in relation to the ethnic wage gap in particular.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI also wanted to pick up on a comment\u2014and sorry for the shuffling of the papers, because I wrote it down; here we go. One of the previous answers from the Minister, where he reiterated his comments in the first and second readings of this bill in relation to employment, was that he hopes he\u2019ll be joined and guided by those workers. I take the Minister\u2019s personal commitments, and despite, obviously, our opposition to the disestablishment of Te Aka Whai Ora, is the Minister confident that those assurances are enough in terms of safeguarding that ongoing feedback loop that he is committing to? For example, should the Minister be replaced by one of his colleagues who has perhaps been far more outspoken in anti-M\u0101ori rhetoric, there are no safeguard mechanisms, then, beyond the Minister\u2019s own words around being guided and joined by the workforce to address M\u0101ori health outcomes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ESo, look, I take the Minister\u2019s personal commitments, but that doesn\u2019t necessarily speak to the safeguards in this bill that would protect, say, another person coming into his role who may not hold those same views actually then being led by the workforce to address M\u0101ori health outcomes. So, beyond those personal commitments, I\u2019m keen to get an understanding of what safeguards exists to ensure that, no matter who is in his role, there is that feedback loop that he is committing to creating to address M\u0101ori health outcomes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022 data-id=\u0022734ec8a38c8045ca8db60c032ab85b5a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022734ec8a38c8045ca8db60c032ab85b5a\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022238b9c01df5a44a8b571ab75faa2ba35\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022238b9c01df5a44a8b571ab75faa2ba35\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e865f88d61464d17b5dae8d37c2fa5ef\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order\u2014point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b115165160964ee4a950a0333b72256f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve started a vote, so I\u2019d ask the member to resume his seat, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002253b9305bc7014d2f9916db957fcb02d3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u00225fb1a27fef454516a0ea499e2759e916\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225fb1a27fef454516a0ea499e2759e916\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Musterer\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. I\u2019m just inviting the Chair for some reflections, because as soon as you came into the Chair you invited us to proceed with the debate within some specific guidelines. There was, I believe, just one call of mine, I think, after you indicated those guidelines, and in my case, I made it really clear that I had three specific questions. I didn\u2019t keep my remarks to reflections of why I dislike the bill and I made sure that these were things that I believed\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d39dd8f3d4143b089f33c7617f0b073\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Can you please\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9677120d5bb4eb490654888d823baf5\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: But my point of order is I\u2019m just inviting you to reflect on why you would come into the Chair to make a reflection and then only allow for one call, rather than in good faith allow the members to scrutinise\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9d5b32b3df748559f7e2613776c2b21\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9d5b32b3df748559f7e2613776c2b21\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Could I ask the member to resume his seat. I did say that I\u2019d been watching the debate. There are a series of Speakers or Chairs sitting in the Chair, and I did say that the employment issues had been well traversed [Interruption] and I heard repetition in the member\u2019s speech, and so\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d25fe2ef8dd74e4ca6d5791be37f305f\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: That big wage gap was not\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233cb4d7d0a6145a3839f7db55dfc1be8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Please do not argue with the Chair. I\u2019ve made a decision, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002246cb76e0e7e64558a6df1797b506f526\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002286b6ac668c9449eab585be2f5c39be08\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002286b6ac668c9449eab585be2f5c39be08\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Now, for Schedule 1, where there is no debate, the question is that H\u016Bhana Lyndon\u2019s tabled amendment to Schedule 1 deleting new clause 36(4) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022679012dccbb24893b42414fd6135e304\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228097587da2494d9682e58e76d3b1e588\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022fb4be8db08ab48d6bdbb2e22570e1725\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fb4be8db08ab48d6bdbb2e22570e1725\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: We come now to Schedule 2, also with no debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223e6d50fbd9a542e3ba2c5b044077f625\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a9b4ee4063ef4777a5dc2e6c2ad8a657\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 3 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ccb3991ab5d74970a5be7edb98e91430\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ccb3991ab5d74970a5be7edb98e91430\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to our final debate, clauses 1 to 3, and this is the debate on \u201CTitle\u201D, \u201CCommencement\u201D, and the \u201CPrincipal Act\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u00224b94facc47154cea82cc52dfc1962ee9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b94facc47154cea82cc52dfc1962ee9\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Wow, what an effort. I first just want to acknowledge the advisers who I, actually, in this case, feel sorry for. They were part of building the whare, and now they\u2019re being asked to dismantle it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI want to help members across the House: when we called this the \u201CPae Ora legislation\u201D\u2014\u201Cpae\u201D meaning horizon, \u201Cora\u201D meaning life or wellbeing; that\u2019s how you come up with the term \u201Chealthy futures\u201D. Pae\u2014horizon. Ora\u2014wellbeing. In debating the title, the signal this sends to our wh\u0101nau outside of this Parliament is, actually, this is pae mate\u2014pae mate. It\u2019s the opposite to a healthy future. It\u2019s the opposite to the horizon of life and wellbeing. It\u2019s actually \u201Cto death\u201D, because that\u2019s what this bill is doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EMy proposal to this Minister is that he actually change the name of the title of this bill to \u201CPae Mate Amendment Bill\u201D because that\u2019s what this is doing to our people. It is saying that it\u2019s OK for M\u0101ori to die seven years before non-M\u0101ori. It\u2019s saying to my uncle, who on this very day is being buried at Ng\u0101ti Manu in K\u0101retu in Te Tai Tokerau, who died of heart disease, who only came out to the doctors because of the work of Te Aka Whai Ora\u2014but, sadly, it was too late. And now we\u2019re saying to him and his family and M\u0101ori and communities right across this country, this is actually the \u201CPae Mate Amendment Bill\u201D. This has nothing about securing the healthy futures of this country, in particular for M\u0101ori and our communities far and wide. That\u2019s my proposal to the Minister; that the more appropriate title for this bill is actually \u201CPae Mate Amendment Bill\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019m going to traverse very lightly across the time line because the commitment date on this bill is 30 June\u201430 June. Why, then, is the Minister rushing this bill under urgency to be completed within 24 hours when its commencement date isn\u2019t until\u2014guess when? Matariki, the M\u0101ori New Year. What signal does that send to our people? Matariki was about a hope for this country, and what this Minister is saying is that, on 30 June, \u201COh no, no hope for you fullas. No hope for you, M\u0101ori. No hope for your communities.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ESo my question to the Minister is: why, then, rush this bill, under urgency, over 24 hours, when the commencement date isn\u2019t until June? The Minister could have had a good opportunity to send this bill to the select committee. We could hear from the experts, like we have many times before, to continue to show this Government why Te Aka Whai Ora was important. But the Minister chose to do it within 24 hours.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ENow, I want to point the Minister to another piece that he\u2019s spoken to on a number of occasions throughout this debate: the Minister says, \u201CIt\u2019s part of the 100-day plan.\u201D Well, if you have a look at the 100-day plan, there\u2019s 49 actions. In those actions, the word \u201Cintroduce\u201D is mentioned eight times and the word \u201Cbegin\u201D is mentioned 10 times. When it talks about the disestablishment of the M\u0101ori Health Authority, it says \u201Cintroduce\u201D the bill. But the Minister is rushing this bill through in its entirety. He could have introduced it through urgency to have its first reading, and sent it to the select committee, but he chose not to despite the 100-day plan saying \u201Cintroduce\u201D the legislation. What the Minister has done has rushed it through. Why? It doesn\u2019t even meet with the 100-day plan\u2014the words in the 100-day plan are very different to the actions of the Minister today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe commencement date puts us into Matariki. Why, then, with four months ahead of us, couldn\u2019t the Minister let it go through a due process? And just finally, because my colleagues will no doubt traverse this, it\u2019s been spoken about the tribunal: that claim could have been heard tomorrow. One more sleep, that\u2019s all it took. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI\u2019m going to leave my contribution there. There will be plenty more on this side.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u002260aaa9cbff4541d7acf6a2168033aedb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002260aaa9cbff4541d7acf6a2168033aedb\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I have two contributions. I won\u2019t be able to do them in the five minutes, so I\u2019m seeking two separate calls.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EThe first one is on the title, \u201CPae Ora (Disestablishment of M\u0101ori Health Authority) Amendment Bill\u201D. Why didn\u2019t the Minister put the words in there: \u201CTe Aka Whai Ora Pae Ora (Disestablishment of M\u0101ori Health Authority) Amendment Bill\u201D? Names are important. Symbolism is important. As we traversed last night, the gifting of the name \u201CTe Aka Whai Ora\u201D and what it actually meant, what it symbolises, doesn\u2019t even get a mention in your title. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ELast night, the Minister said that he spoke with our whaea Moe Milne about the name. I got a text from her: \u201CI did not meet with him. I did not discuss the name with him, neither did I agree to our committee disestablishing the name.\u201D I don\u2019t think I can say the last word in M\u0101ori, because it will be translated to something unparliamentary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EFurther to that, this is about respect for our kupu M\u0101ori, our ingoa M\u0101ori. \u201CTe Aka Whai Ora\u201D\u2014doesn\u2019t even have the guts to put it in the title. But that\u2019s what you\u2019re doing; you\u2019re disestablishing it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ENow, I want to read from the evidence of my uncle Waihoroi Shortland, which he has filed with the Waitangi Tribunal. He says, \u201CWhen I look at Te Aka Whai Ora, I take the notion quite literally\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227941bd7e223a47888f7339908de21cb4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just stop the member there. This is about the title and commencement. I don\u2019t think we should be traversing what\u2019s actually being put to the Waitangi Tribunal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8069c9cf8dd4abb9ea180245cca5c5f\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: This is about the title. This is about the words \u201CTe Aka Whai Ora\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d933f694f14b4b1f9d30813232c83933\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah. This is about the title and commencement of this bill, so we\u2019ll keep it really narrow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210e05ddcad854f469953322739199536\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: So my contribution has been a challenge to the Minister. Why has he not included in the title the words \u201CTe Aka Whai Ora\u201D? I am giving the Minister information about the words \u201CTe Aka Whai Ora\u201D, which I am arguing should have been included in the title, and it is not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EIt says, \u201CI take the notion quite literally. In Ng\u0101ti Hine tradition, \u2018te aka k\u016Bmara\u2019 is that part of the plant that ensures\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f06fef9ad99140af905e5ec38ad2e1b1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: So I\u2019m going to stop the member. Look, the Waitangi Tribunal is a separate matter. It\u2019s something that we shouldn\u2019t be bringing into the title. You can talk about the member, can talk about the title and commencement, but not directly quoting from the tribunal as it happens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229e3ac9db5fc4bcdab072c5e6ced923e\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Madam Chair, I\u2019ll seek your guidance on this one. While acknowledging your comments regarding the live Waitangi Tribunal hearing, I take the point of the Hon Peeni Henare in this, who identified that for the commencement date that we\u2019re discussing, the question arises: what\u2019s the rush for the Minister to push this bill through the House?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228534ad45ee9e4ca78d2a80bcfd8f6214\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: OK, so got that point. Mr Halbert, the question of timing has been asked around the Waitangi Tribunal. It\u2019s the content of the Waitangi Tribunal that is not something that we want to be discussing as part of this piece of legislation. Just a moment. I\u2019m just actually getting some advice here. So the Waitangi Tribunal is not a court of record, but it would be appropriate to avoid directly quoting that material. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f93c3f855508426ca892c76dba060116\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: Is that a Standing Order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229734147d30fe41e6af0463557cb9e472\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s my ruling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca5e6962cee34960afedae7689979ed0\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re ruling that we cannot quote evidence that has been filed with the Waitangi Tribunal ever?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efe3f6dcf594400380a6202d4309dbef\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: No, it\u2019s today, while things are live with the Waitangi Tribunal. The Waitangi Tribunal is not a court of record but it would be appropriate to avoid directly quoting the material that\u2019s within that, so I\u2019m not going to allow people to quote the material. This is simply about the title and commencement, and we acknowledge that there is another process going on alongside this, but this is the title and commencement of this bill. It\u2019s fair to acknowledge that the timing of these two things are coinciding, but we will not have material from the Waitangi Tribunal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298132802a1bd491c9566d8d15d99a270\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, I want to be clear on this, because while I acknowledge your point around the content of the hearing before us, I do want to ask for your guidance that we are able to reference in this discussion the importance of the Waitangi Tribunal hearing, relevant to this legislation that is being rammed through the House on this particular day. The question arises, and the point here is: why is the Minister pushing this through at this particular time, when in two days we would be able to go through that process of the hearing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022277ec29d92ae49f5a3fd721795954932\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: So the answer is, as I first said, you can reference the fact that there\u2019s a hearing happening. This is about commencement and timing, and that\u2019s fine, but do not reference any content of the hearing itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ede2a2945f841db8881ddbfa15c5628\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: So in my contribution, I am making a contribution directly to the title of the legislation. My points have been about why the Minister has not included the actual words \u201CTe Aka Whai Ora\u201D, which is the name\u2014the name\u2014of the thing we are disestablishing. He has not put that in the title, and what I was trying to provide to the Minister, for his consideration, because it\u2019s not too late, Minister, to make changes\u2014it\u2019s not too late; you can do that. I tried to give you an example\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258c20fecc4414f9c9a595933de31c1aa\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225aa51aacec6d4630b458a309e35225bd\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014the Minister an example\u2014of rich k\u014Drero about what \u201Caka\u201D means, and what \u201Caka\u201D means to a tribe like Ng\u0101ti Hine, who relies on k\u016Bmara for our survival, and one of our most esteemed orators, leaders within te ao M\u0101ori and m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori offers explanations\u2014deep, meaningful explanations and symbolism\u2014of what an \u201Caka\u201D means. We are discussing the title to this legislation, and what this legislation\u2019s title is doing is disestablishing, and it just says here, \u201Cthe M\u0101ori Health Authority\u201D, but what it is disestablishing is \u201CTe Aka Whai Ora\u201D, and I am making references to those that gave that name, that gifted that name, and the meaning and symbolism within it, but also those who have offered other k\u014Drero about why \u201Caka\u201D is so important when we look at the health and wellbeing of our people. I\u2019m not going to debate on the use of, or bringing into the contribution\u2014Madam Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa2fc7dcec2f46cea59bb6644c3ac064\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Willow-Jean Prime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232a23718c6284887a254bfaa962a32fb\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f72041f6afb144cdbb0bdcabff519b48\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: And please\u2014specific questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221908ed91182a4442a53d3611c0ee9844\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: Yep, so I have\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ddb0ac5934840b773b22fc2c72dcd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve been very good in the last couple of minutes about specific questions\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b82634bc7c01473f9df0a9fd1a7fb277\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, there are questions there for the Minister to answer, and I would implore him, before the end of this debate, to go and read that evidence that I cannot read for you here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ESo now I\u2019ll come on to the commencement date of this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223122182ff49c4e09af080a00d1e09e5d\u0022\u003EHon Andrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, very good!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d62e55a3a29341ca94a35086b6e38180\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, did you not like the last part? Do you think we should not talk about the title? Do you think we should not talk about having Te Aka Whai Ora in the title? Did you think that five minutes was a waste of time, Mr Bayly?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022207bb6760b8a4ddf8236a1cb16664024\u0022\u003EHon Andrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: I think you should be relevant to the topic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b8aac96927b4078a461c7236cd673ce\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, right. Moving on to the commencement date, and I\u2019ll try to ignore the interjections from the other side and the disrespect towards us, who are doing this under urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ESo now I\u2019ll come to the commencement date. This is passing under urgency\u2014all stages, no select committee process. Te Aka Whai Ora, the Pae Ora legislation, is something that took years\u2014years\u2014to put in place. There were multiple, numerous consultations with all parties through all the processes available. It was a recommendation of the health and disability review. It was a recommendation of the Waitangi Tribunal that we establish a M\u0101ori health authority. And here, in 24 hours, through an urgent process, you are rushing this through\u2014no consultation according to your departmental disclosure statement. I can\u2019t even see a regulatory impact statement anywhere on this bill\u2014so, rushing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EBut when we look at the commencement date, this isn\u2019t actually going to commence until 30 June. So why, Minister\u2014and I know you\u2019re going to just get up and dismiss this as \u201CI\u2019ve answered it in other sections.\u201D, but this is under title and commencement\u2014are we passing this under urgency when it\u2019s not going to take effect until 30 June? That would have allowed ample time, in your rushed processes, to have a select committee process, to stop and do some consultation. But, no, we\u2019re rushing it through today, because, as I said last night, there\u2019s something taking place, or should have been taking place, tomorrow: a planeload of the Minister\u2019s relations are coming down to present to the Waitangi Tribunal their submissions\u2014their opposition\u2014on the disestablishment of Te Aka Whai Ora\u2014his own hap\u016B, Te Kapotai, a named claimant in that urgency hearing to take place tomorrow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EIs the Minister confident that that hearing tomorrow, that should take place tomorrow, has absolutely no bearing on the decision to pass this through urgency, all stages, last night and today? Can he, hand on heart, say that that wasn\u2019t a single factor in the decision to do that right now? The Minister says this has been on notice for some time\u2014that they intend to do this\u2014but not once did the Crown file in the Waitangi Tribunal that it would be happening right now, because if they had been honest, and if that was the direction, then that would have been filed very early on in the proceedings, but it wasn\u2019t. It took everybody by surprise last week to find out that it was going to be introduced and done under urgency this week. It leaves us with no other conclusion except that this has been done deliberately to undermine the Waitangi Tribunal, to undermine the Minister\u2019s own relations, who are named claimants in that claim.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228287b00642749abaaef0f45de31ee67\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re not going to make personal comments about the Minister. You can talk about the Government\u2019s intentions but no personal comments about the Minister. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e8da360bb1f4b51a9e1a65867c4e432\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: Sure. The Government, which this Minister is part of, which this Minister is responsible for\u2014he is the leader of this; he is shepherding this legislation through. It is not coming into effect until 30 June. So why are we doing it today?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022c8b2b456dce646a9a1717fffe8d64da2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c8b2b456dce646a9a1717fffe8d64da2\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. I deliberately waited until the end of the contribution from the Hon Willow-Jean Prime, and I will note before I make this point of order that the advice that Madam Chair provided in regard to the Waitangi Tribunal was accepted by the member, and she followed that advice through the remainder of her contribution. But I think it is important for the committee\u2019s understanding if you could please provide further explanation of that ruling. Specifically, it would be helpful, I think, if you could refer to the Standing Order or, indeed, the Speaker\u2019s ruling that that\u2019s based on, because there does seem to be some concern around the conflation between the courts, which is clearly not in question, and the inclusion of the Waitangi Tribunal, which came as somewhat of a surprise. Given the nature of this debate, which does appear to have some time left in it, I think it would be useful for all members to understand the basis of that, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6682f6c4544468fbf22c5bd8f49937d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I come back to you on that. I\u2019m just going to take the Hon Dr Shane Reti.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae2987ecc4b8425fa8db26ddadf264d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae2987ecc4b8425fa8db26ddadf264d4\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Just to speak to why Te Aka Whai Ora doesn\u2019t appear in the title, it\u2019s because it doesn\u2019t appear in the Pae Ora legislation either and the amendment bill has to refer to the legal title in the statute.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022 data-id=\u0022412d433d022c45bea8218a5035dd2925\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022412d433d022c45bea8218a5035dd2925\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, wishing to speak to both name and the commencement date, I\u2019d like to share how ripped off I feel for te iwi M\u0101ori and the people of New Zealand knowing that we have so little time as members of New Zealand to contribute to this debate because we\u2019re locked out. Our communities are locked out. And despite the commencement date being in June, we are in urgency, and we are tired, and we are pukuriri, and we are here passionately speaking to save something that our people have invested so much into. So I reflect on the 4,685 submitters to the Pae Ora legislation, who took the time to provide their local voice, their hap\u016B, their wh\u0101nau, their marae, their community voice, the health providers who contributed to the building blocks of Pae Ora. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EWhat is in a name? A name such as Pae Ora is tapu. Pae Ora (Healthy Futures) means so much because Pae Ora came from so much\u2014Waitangi Tribunal findings and recommendations, as well as a full health systems review that all came together and gave the name, the new path, Pae Ora (Healthy Futures). And to now know that we are being ripped off as the people of New Zealand by not being able to submit. As a member of the Health Committee I was looking forward to the opportunity to see the bill introduced in order for it to come before our committee and open the floodgates for our community, for iwi M\u0101ori, for health providers and health professionals to tell us why we should retain Te Aka Whai Ora. So my koha is short but it is to express responses to the communities that have contacted me saying \u201CWhy? Why\u201D\u2014because the bill, or the legislation doesn\u2019t come in to place until June 2024\u2014\u201Cwould this Government rush in urgency to see Te Aka Whai Ora disestablished today?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003ESo my plea is to the Government to consider the legislation that they are rushing through urgency for their 100-day plan, to give the people of New Zealand a chance. Where is the chance for the people of New Zealand, let alone te iwi M\u0101ori, to share their whakaaro on the legislation? What, we\u2019re up to number 16 now in urgency and we\u2019ve got more to come next week. So, me t\u016B patu t\u0101tou, me t\u016B patu. I think it\u2019s important that we all front our communities and we own decisions made in this House, and I look forward to the meetings that will occur after this because this has been rushed through far, far too soon for the people of New Zealand and te iwi M\u0101ori. Kia ora. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8efc322eeb9446e91e48321ddf1e2ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8efc322eeb9446e91e48321ddf1e2ef\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to speak to the commencement date in my contribution and I share the concerns of my other parliamentary colleagues in the House today about this piece of legislation being rushed through in urgency. And I know the Minister will feel it in some sense; it\u2019s a sensitive kaupapa that we are debating in this Chamber in urgency, and I know that he does have a heart and, as a health practitioner himself, he certainly will be looking with interest in this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EElections are elections, and what you campaign on, of course you have to deliver. But the point here is the sensitivities of what we are discussing today. This is a matter for all of Aotearoa New Zealand. M\u0101ori, yes, is a very important part of this. And I share the concerns of my tuahine, H\u016Bhana Lyndon, who talks about our wh\u0101nau being locked out of this place. It makes me sad that today, when we\u2019re talking about such a sensitive kaupapa, none of our people are here\u2014that the wairua that we normally feel within these chambers at such an important time is missing. And that makes me sad today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EThe commencement date is months away\u2014we\u2019re talking about Matariki. It enables an opportunity for us to talk to the communities, the people that are important, and we\u2019ve acknowledged the communities, we\u2019ve acknowledged Ma\u014Dri, and, particularly today, I think part of the gap in our conversation here and the opportunity to feedback is from practitioners themselves, health practitioners. So the question for the Minister is really: what is the rush here? How did he determine that urgency was required? Did he consider the sensitivities of this particular bill, that Ma\u014Dri wouldn\u2019t have the opportunity to contribute, that his health colleagues alike\u2014and I think about practitioners like Rawiri Jansen, you know; like my better half, Dr Anthony Jordan, you know; like my tuahine Lily Fraser\u2014good Ma\u014Dri health practitioners that have the same goal, no doubt, Minister, that you have in mind. They don\u2019t tend to have the politics, but, most of all, to address the health inequities in our system, they will support you to achieve. I just ask you again: did you consider this in making this decision in urgency? Is it purely political? How do you intend to recover from that to ensure that our health practitioner voice is a part of this when we look at the commencement dates, albeit months away?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EMadam Chair, I feel a bit nervous talking about the Waitangi Tribunal hearing without a ruling in regards to what Kieran McAnulty just\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022636667cee6544d4b960b5cb07d39d492\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s OK if you just stick to the timing of it for this\u2014at this point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0527789fb7d46cebbe5dbda7dcc718f\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. And I do think that that is another sensitive point\u2014that through this process of urgency we haven\u2019t allowed that process to occur where M\u0101ori will go to raise their concerns, where we will be able to debate in this Chamber, actually, the evidence that comes before that hearing, and it\u2019s a missed opportunity in this debate. I go back to the way I started, that this debate is about Aotearoa New Zealand. It\u2019s about everyone and certainly it\u2019s about Ma\u014Dri health outcomes as an important part, but the missed opportunity here is the opportunity for everyone\u2014Ma\u014Dri, non-Ma\u014Dri, health practitioners alike\u2014to contribute.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m concerned that while the goals may be there for the Minister, his approach to this and the influence of politics on choosing to move this through agency is where my questions lie.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u0022e7f22020b25742fcae8d3abae891281e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e7f22020b25742fcae8d3abae891281e\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I want to help the Minister out here with regards to the title and also have a bit of a k\u014Drero about our commencement date. I saw that the Hon Peeni Henare gave a very useful recommendation in terms of what the new name of the bill should be. It\u2019s called Pae Ora (Disestablishment of M\u0101ori Health Authority) Amendment Bill; he wants to call it \u201CPae Mate\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EI would respectfully disagree with the former Minister. I\u2019d get rid of all of the M\u0101ori words altogether, and I think a better name would be the \u201CP\u0101keh\u0101 M\u0101ori Health Authority\u201D. No disrespect to the Hon Peeni Henare, but I think it would be a better title that the Minister should consider given the rhetoric we have heard from this Government with regards to M\u0101ori names being at the front of anything. We don\u2019t want to upset the Hon Winston Peters here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s why this is a serious recommendation, because I think if we rename this the \u201CP\u0101keh\u0101 M\u0101ori Health Authority Amendment Bill\u201D, then everybody would be happy because, you know, we can\u2019t push the M\u0101ori language out there. We\u2019ve changed\u2014what did we change?\u2014Waka Kotahi. Well, we got rid of that and we\u2019re getting rid of the different M\u0101ori names right across the spectrum. So, I\u2019m seriously saying\u2014although I do like what the former Minister Hon Peeni Henare said: \u201CPae Mate\u201D. I think if we\u2019re going to go down the reo side, that might be a good description. The Government should be brave here and stick to their guns. They\u2019ve made it very clear that they have no time for te reo M\u0101ori. They are making changes everywhere; some of our M\u0101ori language speakers out there are not going to be compensated for their expertise in terms of te reo M\u0101ori, so they should be true to that and put a title up that encapsulates the philosophy of this Government at the moment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019d like the Minister to seriously consider that title change. Don\u2019t use our reo when it suits; just go down the track that you\u2019ve been going down\u2014that the Government\u2019s been going down\u2014and call it what it is. I think I heard from someone from the M\u0101ori Party there, my good friend over there, Mariameno Kapa-Kingi, who said that this is about encapsulating whakaaro P\u0101keh\u0101. So call it a P\u0101keh\u0101 name, an English name, and everybody on that side of the House will be happy: the \u201CP\u0101keh\u0101 M\u0101ori Health Authority\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EIn terms of the date, 30 June, I do not get this date. I\u2019d ask the Minister to reconsider this. This is an affront to te ao M\u0101ori, to our Waitangi Tribunal\u2014and thank you for the clarification with regards to the tribunal. This tribunal is very dear to many of us; very dear to us, very dear to our people who have nowhere to go sometimes. They have nowhere to go so they put all their eggs in the basket\u2014our koroua and kuia through the years. Some of them have mortgaged their homes in terms of taking their submissions to the tribunal, and I would ask this date to be reconsidered\u2014two more days. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EIt is very personal to us; very personal to me, the tribunal. I was the Minister who appointed many of these tribunal members over the previous three years; many of them are good P\u0101keh\u0101 people like Professor David Williams, who has been an advocate for kaupapa M\u0101ori. We know all our other people on there, like Professor Linda Smith, Derek Fox, who I appointed last year. These are people who have given their life to the tribunal, who are being denied the opportunity to critique this properly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EYes, they\u2019ll be doing it, but they\u2019ll be doing it after the event. It upsets them and it upsets us as a M\u0101ori nation, as M\u0101ori people right across the spectrum. So much time into this tribunal, and here their mana has been walked over right now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003ESo I ask the Minister: why the rush? Why couldn\u2019t we wait a couple of days to show the due respect to a tribunal that has been very much a part of our people\u2019s lives? Kia ora, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b0dd05e6920742668a8ca12d48c333ec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b0dd05e6920742668a8ca12d48c333ec\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Hon Kieran McAnulty, for your patience. It is true that the prohibition on reference to proceeding in Standing Order 116 applies in respect of New Zealand court and the tribunal is not in that category. Members need to consider whether it\u2019s in the public interest to discuss such matters, and I\u2019m aware that the matter is live before the tribunal and that is relevant. I suggest the way forward is for members to share valuable insights that they may have become aware of in light of the tribunal\u2019s work, but please avoid directly citing material as it is part of the tribunal\u2019s proceedings. I would also remind members that we are on a part of this bill that\u2019s around title and commencement, and we want to keep this part of the discussions in the Parliament to title and commencement. If it\u2019s about the tribunal not being able to have that opportunity, then that is relevant to this piece of the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022e95b007314624d26bf3fb8d2c524e295\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e95b007314624d26bf3fb8d2c524e295\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. Madam Chair, this is actually a really important point, because the starting place in debate is that this House is free to discuss any matter, and the ruling you\u2019ve made is of considerable significance in curtailing that right. Now, the Speakers\u2019 rulings are clear, and at 38/6 it makes it very clear that \u201CThe House is not debarred from discussing a matter that is before a royal commission as would be the case if [it] were before [the courts].\u201D Now, the Waitangi Tribunal is a standing commission of inquiry with recommendatory powers only, and your ruling is now cutting directly across an existing Speaker\u2019s ruling. I think, with the utmost respect, Madam Chair, that this needs to be looked at with real care, because the Waitangi Tribunal is entirely distinct from a court and the sub judice rule has no part to play. I would refer the House to Parliamentary Practice in New Zealand at section 19.9.3, which lists the bodies to which the sub judice rule applies in an exhaustive fashion, and it does not include any tribunal, any commission, any commission of inquiry. This is a very important point about the privilege of this House to debate topics freely and refer to any material it chooses, so I would respectfully suggest that the utmost care be taken before making any ruling on the admissibility of any matter, including evidence that is before the tribunal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a020fb567e54088868bd58c45983959\u0022\u003EH\u016Bhana Lyndon\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair, point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d1e562786e5a4323b78e7ce210806ac6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d1e562786e5a4323b78e7ce210806ac6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m just going to respond to the Hon Duncan Webb, so just bear with me for a second. It is true that the House is not debarred from that discussion; that is accepted. But I\u2019m asking members to exercise restraint out of respect for that institution. Please consider whether it is appropriate to directly state that the material being used is part of a submission. That\u2019s all I\u2019m asking for, the respect for that institution, and also reminding members that we are talking about title and commencement in this piece of legislation. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022099abd137d074808a7528b582b810c6e\u0022\u003EH\u016Bhana Lyndon\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, in addition, please, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e93157063df447ad8d1ec1f8cf846ac2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Is this a new point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022 data-id=\u00229032e9ede8ef4e92a6d13d1b9aa52a6c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229032e9ede8ef4e92a6d13d1b9aa52a6c\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E It is a k\u014Drero t\u0101piri. I am new to the House, but I wanted to share with the Speaker that at 6 o\u2019clock last night the Waitangi Tribunal notified applicants and the Crown that it vacated the inquiry so is no longer live. It ended last night at 6 p.m. due to the jurisdiction, so just wanting to note that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00228c435f70949b41ea85ec5e5422452420\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c435f70949b41ea85ec5e5422452420\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I\u2019m aware of that\u2014I\u2019m aware of that, yeah, and I just ask members to bear that in mind. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee921d7d5ea8429a9fff0d87f65bebf5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee921d7d5ea8429a9fff0d87f65bebf5\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. Thank you, Madam Chair. I thank you very much for what was clearly a considered response to both my point of order and that raised by the Hon Dr Duncan Webb. Just for absolute clarity, your response to Dr Duncan Webb was an amendment to your original ruling, and I think it goes some way to addressing the concerns that we raised, but for the absolute clarity of the House, I just want it to be made clear that what you responded to the point of order from the Hon Dr Duncan Webb overrules the advice that you originally gave. That original advice was slightly more restrictive than where you\u2019ve landed now, and I don\u2019t think that\u2014given the importance of this, we can\u2019t have any confusion as to where we stand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022a41d333f98e24dcdbafc26c46470b7cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a41d333f98e24dcdbafc26c46470b7cc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, no, look, accepting what the member\u2019s saying, all I\u2019m asking is for members to exercise restraint out of respect for the institution, but also to remember that we are talking about title and commencement here as well. So that\u2019s where we\u2019re at. If someone\u2019s got a call on that basis, I\u2019ll take it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u0022837416bb58bd4505ba46fbf0e98ca0b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022837416bb58bd4505ba46fbf0e98ca0b6\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. We are discussing title and commencement, and I wanted to take a moment to speak to my Amendment Paper because I have a specific amendment around the commencement date. My amendment would move the commencement date from 30 June 2024 to 30 June 2025. There is a very specific reason I\u2019ve put this amendment in place. I\u2019ve been discussing this legislation with members of my community who work in the health sector\u2014and I see we\u2019re having a switch, so it\u2019s Mr Chair now. So I\u2019ve been discussing the removal of the M\u0101ori Health Authority with health leaders in my community, who have shared concerns with me. One of the matters they\u2019ve specifically raised with me is that providers who have been receiving direct funding from the M\u0101ori Health Authority have actually been rushing over the last few weeks to complete what we call in the sector \u201Cthe accountability documentation\u201D. For those new to the House, or new to this, who are watching, the accountability documentation is documentation that NGOs, community providers, have to provide to funders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ESo the reason I raised this in relation to the commencement date is that we\u2019ve also had discussion and there has been reports since the introduction of the M\u0101ori Health Authority that have focused on, I guess, the effectiveness of the authority in its infancy. We\u2019ve been talking about its infancy. One of the things I would like to recognise is that when you do introduce new agencies, new organisations, there is always a transition time where it takes time for things to get up to speed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EOne of the reasons I am asking the Minister to seriously consider delaying the implementation of this legislation is because I know those agencies that have received funding have actually just been completing their accountability documentation. What that would do would allow health officials and others who assess it\u2014like the Treasury, for example\u2014to be able to look at that accountability documentation that providers are currently working on and assess it and determine if this bill actually needs to be put in place, or if there are other changes we would potentially like to make to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EBecause we are pushing this through under urgency, we don\u2019t have that select committee process, and there are matters that could normally be considered. I think one of the things that is really important is to actually get a sense check\u2014is the authority working? Is it working as we intended? So a delay in the commencement date of a year would allow that to happen. So that\u2019s why I\u2019ve specifically put in place this amendment, from 30 June 2024 to 30 June 2025. Because when I\u2019ve been talking to providers and to health leaders who work in the health system in my community of Nelson, they have raised that concern with me around the speed of the legislation, both coming through the House but also its implementation time frame\u2014so on the back of those accountability documents. And we all know they look at saying, \u201CHave the outcomes been delivered? Has the money been spent in the intention it was supposed to be spent?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI think, if health officials\u2014the Treasury, the Minister, and his officials\u2014were to see the outcomes that had been delivered by some of those providers, it may lead to a rethink on whether, first of all, this bill is even needed in the first place, whether there were other tweaks that could be made to it, whether we said, \u201CActually, we\u2019re not going to introduce it like we are now; we\u2019re going to do something slightly different.\u201D And I think it would allow everyone to take a breath. Because I think that\u2019s what we need to do here: we need to take a breath. Because I think we\u2019re hearing from\u2014within the House\u2014the voices of our communities who are saying, \u201CThis has not even had its opportunity to shine, this authority. Give it some time. Give it some time to breathe. Give it some time to grow.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ESo this is probably the last opportunity I will have in the Chamber to speak on this very important bill. And I just want to place on record, as a P\u0101keh\u0101 New Zealander whose father was one of the first P\u0101keh\u0101 leaders in the health system in New Zealand to sit on a committee as the only P\u0101keh\u0101 leader to work on M\u0101ori health initiatives by M\u0101ori, for M\u0101ori, I am so proud of his contribution\u2014he is devastated and I am devastated. This is a shameful, shameful bill, and I bring the voice of my father, Jonathan Boyack, and his mahi into M\u0101ori health in New Zealand, here, today, to say, \u201CWe should not pass this bill.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022 data-id=\u0022aa3a7a6baba54410b2c7e31d00624c91\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aa3a7a6baba54410b2c7e31d00624c91\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u00222a4ab086740c47099c889f768d98b5e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a4ab086740c47099c889f768d98b5e6\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora. Thank you, Mr Chair. I am wanting to speak to the title of the bill, if I may, and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200e54a0ab49d4658a76ade20393cc504\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry to interrupt. Just because a new speaker is speaking on a matter they haven\u2019t spoken on before\u2014when we look at repetition, we look at who else in the debate has spoken on the same thing. Just a wee reminder that new to the member is not new to the debate. So I\u2019ll just start your time again. I apologise for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f157d31ec3eb402193bd8347e12f2047\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I have the perhaps terrifying task of disagreeing with the more experienced members in this House from the same side, Peeni Henare and Willie Jackson. But in the context of what I will propose as the title for this bill, there has to be an understanding of the foundational obligation we have in allowing the fulfilment of tino rangatiratanga for M\u0101ori, which is a constitutional, foundational basis. This bill is taking away that right of self-determination for M\u0101ori in terms of their health. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EIn my original speaking to the first reading, I referenced Joseph Banks in 1770, who acknowledged the excellent health of M\u0101ori as he perceived them: their diet was \u201Caccompanied with moderation\u201D and \u201Cmust be productive of sound health, which indeed these people are blessed with in a very high degree\u201D. But he made a very interesting other observation. He said, \u201CSuch health drawn from so sound principles must make physicians almost useless.\u201D His observation was there was no need for doctors, but he wrongly perceived that there was not already medicine being practised by M\u0101ori. There were obviously tohunga, there were obviously rongo\u0101, practices being made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThis is what brings me to the suggestion of Hana-Rawhiti Maipi-Clarke that this should be called the \u201CTohunga Suppression Act 2.0\u201D, because what it does is it fails to recognise that M\u0101ori have their own m\u0101tauranga, have their own knowledge and systems of understanding how best to apply health to their people. When they had free rein to do it, they had the most excellent health that could be observed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003ESo that is my suggestion. The context also for this, Mr Chair\u2014and I realise you\u2019ve asked me to keep it tight, so I will\u2014is that underlying the logic behind the removal of the M\u0101ori Health Authority is the snake oil equality concept that for us to be more equal we have to take away the rights of another group, and the group from whom we\u2019re taking the rights is the group who have the supposed privilege of dying seven years younger than non-M\u0101ori, of having twice the rate of cardiovascular disease of non-M\u0101ori; who have the privilege of having child health impacts at 1.5 times the rate of non-M\u0101ori. So that lie that somehow there is special privilege here in recognising the right of M\u0101ori to determine their own health and manage their own health is absolutely betrayed by this bill and is why it should be called the \u201CTohunga Suppression Act 2.0\u201D. Thank you, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u00220416efedbc0046b5ac76aecdee42db24\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220416efedbc0046b5ac76aecdee42db24\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to start this contribution by saying that in my first contribution, I was talking directly to the title, to the name; and, in my second contribution, to the commencement. In my first contribution, I was trying to talk to the title, to the name, to the importance of kupu, of words, of symbolism, of meaning. I have carefully considered the direction from the previous Chair that it is at my discretion whether I use any of the k\u014Drero that we have from the Waitangi Tribunal in this debate. And I believe that the k\u014Drero I was trying to share is absolutely relevant to the legislation that we are debating today, under urgency\u2014shortly going to be passed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ESo, with that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fa660d341b548de9b7cee4d1f8aefe3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: If that\u2019s sort of an inferred question, then I have followed fully the debate to date, and what I\u2019ll be looking for is a reference frequently to any material to the title and commencement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226892f68ef95d49439b7be0b1b4496fa9\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely. So, given that I was stopped in my contribution earlier, I would like to return to the contribution I was making about the word \u201Caka\u201D, and why it is important, and why I believe it should be in the title. I agree with the suggestion from the Hon Peeni Henare that the name should be changed to \u201CPae Mate\u201D, and that Te Aka Whai Ora should be referenced in the title. I heard the Minister\u2019s explanation for why it is just the M\u0101ori Health Authority, but he can choose to put whatever additional words he would like to put in there\u2014he can hyphenate it if he likes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ENow, I have been provided this k\u014Drero. They are happy for me to use this k\u014Drero here. So I am referring to uncle Waihoroi Shortland, who says, \u201CWhen I look at Te Aka Whai Ora, I take the notion quite literally. In Ng\u0101ti Hine tradition, te aka k\u016Bmara is that part of plant that ensures the health of the crop it produces. It is the part of the k\u016Bmara plant which provides sustenance from above and below the ground. For Ng\u0101ti Hine, the k\u016Bmara is synonymous with the people. Therefore, Te Aka Whai Ora was seen as a means of delivering wellbeing to the people. The aka root system is unseen\u2014it is underground. It ensures the crop will be healthy, will be worth harvesting, and then will sustain the people above the ground. When you look at the connectivity of the parts of the k\u016Bmara, the only means through which to maintain the health and wellbeing of the k\u016Bmara itself is what the aka is able to do. You do not know what is happening below the earth, but you can assess it based on what is happening above the earth. At a point in time, the foliage will wither\u2014the crop is ready to harvest. We can rejoice in how good the crop is and take the seedlings to generate the next year\u2019s crop. The future crop is always envisaged as being better than this year\u2019s. A good aka will deliver good, healthy people\u2014people well-sustained to enhance the wellness of all it serves. Good Government investment in Te Aka Whai Ora means the people can thrive. Te Aka Whai Ora\u2019s job is to get the investment to deliver a robust crop. So the notion that Te Aka Whai Ora not being there and not being part of the system that nourishes the crop at the end of the aka is tantamount to leaving the fruit to die on the vine.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ESo, with that contribution and those words from our uncle Waihoroi Shortland, I support Peeni Henare\u2019s suggestion that we, in fact, change the title of this legislation to \u201CPae Mate\u201D\u2014the disestablishment of Te Aka Whai Ora: the Ma\u014Dri Health Authority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022 data-id=\u0022526fa22c71204474a74f11917d09bd1b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022526fa22c71204474a74f11917d09bd1b\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228a40eb74374643e1a02ff4323a59f922\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022495ca3e7895c41798f67f2e43c88839e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00221a717346f68845d981c472eabeb88ee9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a717346f68845d981c472eabeb88ee9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Rachel Boyack\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 2 be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002269a2a3cd5432453d8656fb4bf47a9590\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224809efe6b7cc4e1aa36230c866c54567\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e67f25ed34b5406c9f19282dc7c8e45c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000246\u0022\u003EBill to be reported without amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000247\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022be550a98990f48e99ab45d271f3b38a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be550a98990f48e99ab45d271f3b38a5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has considered the Pae Ora (Disestablishment of M\u0101ori Health Authority) Amendment Bill and reports it without amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022936e61f0d5cc4cc594359b0a8dc77196\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022936e61f0d5cc4cc594359b0a8dc77196\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for third reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220eb29242b450447495662bae6a382e5f\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2250af8cb6f470cac02e159d215a938\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2250af8cb6f470cac02e159d215a938\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Pae Ora (Disestablishment of M\u0101ori Health Authority) Amendment Bill be now read a third time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EThis is a simple piece of legislation, and I will conclude with a few simple closing remarks recognising all the work that the House has put into it over this past 24 hours. This bill lays the foundation for a future health system that is focused on health need. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EI want to reiterate that I believe we all have the same dream for the health system: we all want to address health inequities, we all want to shorten waiting lists, and we all want a workforce that isn\u2019t overstretched and that has the right skills to respond effectively to all our diverse populations. I said in the first reading debate that even though this particular version of the dream with the M\u0101ori Health Authority is coming to an end, I wanted to paint a new one, one that is outcomes-focused, driven by need, and with decisions made closer to the home and hap\u016B. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EThis Government is totally focused on outcomes. The question we ask about any policy is: will it improve outcomes? Will it mean people get better care? Will it mean people get faster care? Will it mean people will get the care that suits their circumstances, including cultural competency? We will be setting clear health targets to drive improved outcomes, but I want to be very clear that we will be setting ambitious targets that will take some time and resources to meet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EThe Hauora M\u0101ori Advisory Committee will be retained and supported to do even more, including further monitoring M\u0101ori health outcomes. The outcomes we are focused on are those that respond to health need. Throughout the debates on this bill, members have repeatedly highlighted disparities in M\u0101ori health outcomes. I acknowledge these disparities and the need to improve them. As I\u2019ve said before, when we focus on need, we very quickly find that it is M\u0101ori who have the greatest need in most areas of health. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EMy dream for the health system isn\u2019t about bureaucratic structures and endless plans and reports; it\u2019s about identifying need and responding to it. This bill retains the iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards. They will work with their communities, with hap\u016B and iwi, to identify those needs. There is a positive obligation on Health New Zealand to work with the boards in developing priorities for improving hauora M\u0101ori. We seek to empower iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards, but for those who are needy and have capacity beyond what Pae Ora allowed. One of the fundamental differences in approach is enabled by this legislation: this Government believes that decisions should be made closer to the home and hap\u016B. Local circumstances require local solutions rather than national bureaucracies. The iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards will have a role in the planning and delivery of healthcare in their communities. Local input into health services, especially primary and community services, is good for everyone and a priority for this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EThere will be more to say and more thinking to be done. This bill allows us to pause work on localities while we work out how to ensure genuine local influence on local service design and delivery. We need to have ways of working that identify and support local solutions to local health challenges. That means using data, measuring progress, and working with people who know their communities best. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EPrimary and community healthcare is most people\u2019s gateway to the health system. When we get this right, we\u2019ll be supporting New Zealanders to stay in good health for longer wherever they are, whoever they are, and whatever their health needs are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EI want to reiterate some of the key changes in this narrow bill: (1) M\u0101ori Health Authority staff are to transfer to Health New Zealand and the Ministry of Health\u2014this will retain a focus on M\u0101ori health and retain organisational knowledge, including any gains that have been achieved\u2014(2) uplifting of the M\u0101ori Health Advisory Committee into advisory and monitoring roles; (3) uplifting of iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards, enhancing their relationship with local communities; and (4) pausing of the schedule for localities while we reconsider their place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EFinally, I want to once again acknowledge the many staff of the authority who have worked so hard. Your expertise is essential to achieving this new dream. I know you will be welcomed into Health New Zealand or the Ministry of Health.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EWe can choose form or function; I choose function. We can choose activism or actions; I choose actions. We can choose outrage or outcomes; I choose outcomes. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022a1690b153b6b4c7f86eefe7c74ed3567\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a1690b153b6b4c7f86eefe7c74ed3567\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u00220c3bd414c78c47bdab89b721fe269ff9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c3bd414c78c47bdab89b721fe269ff9\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, I want to indicate to you and the House that in the final minute of my contribution today, I will be speaking in te reo M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve known Dr Reti all my life. In fact, Dr Reti was my family doctor, a doctor to my father, and, in fact, Dr Reti also delivered my son into this world. Dr Reti and I also entered Parliament together in 2014, and yet here we are: sadly, one built a whare; the other dismantled it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI am sad today. I wear a black suit to mark the passing of my grand-uncle John Davis, who is being buried today in Ng\u0101ti Manu, and with the help of Te Aka Whai Ora, had it been given more of an opportunity, I\u2019m sure it would have continued to support him in life. I also wear a black suit today to acknowledge that this bill is taking the M\u0101ori people backwards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EDr Reti has said outside of this House that he wanted to hold his powder to deliver a grand plan in the grandeur of the House, to give it depth and volume and the lustre. The contribution throughout the entire passage of this bill from Dr Reti, and indeed members of the Government, has lacked depth, volume, and lustre. In fact, the depth is so shallow that the dissatisfaction on this side of the House with the answers and the explanations given by the Minister and this Government shows that the depth of thinking in this action was not there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWhen it comes to volume\u2014volume? Well, if anything, it\u2019s more silence\u2014silence from the Minister and the Government when asked and pressed on matters relating to whether or not he and the Government have met with key stakeholders and whether or not they would be prepared to wait for the Waitangi Tribunal and their recommendations. Nothing but silence from the other side of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ELustre? Well, lacklustre is a better description\u2014lacklustre in the aspiration for the health of M\u0101ori people and indeed all New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EIt disappoints me so much when I think of this whakatauk\u012B that says \u201CKaua e mate wheke, mate \u0101 ururoa!\u201D\u2014\u201CDon\u2019t die passively like the octopus, die fighting like the shark!\u201D\u2014and I look towards my colleague, my whanaunga and my friend Dr Reti to say, please, we, the M\u0101ori people and this side of the House, ask you to fight like a shark. Even when those around him seem intent on pulling him down, the ask is that he fights like a shark for our people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EDr Reti has said he is focused on priorities and targets. The statistics in health for M\u0101ori clearly state a case, then, that there will be increased funding from this Government for M\u0101ori health outcomes. The statistics are very clear. This House will be looking to the other side of the House, that Government, who are intent on austerity and cuts in the public sector and health services in order to make a tax cut for New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWe will be holding this Government to account to make sure that their words around prioritising and focusing the spend and the energy of the health sector to where it\u2019s needed the most will actually be delivered upon. That\u2019s for M\u0101ori. The statistics are all there\u2014they are clear\u2014and if this Government had given the Waitangi Tribunal the opportunity for an urgency hearing, every member on that side of the House would have seen the case put forward for those statistics that paint a grim picture for the M\u0101ori health of this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI make the point that what\u2019s good for M\u0101ori is good for this country. Not only is this bill and the bill that\u2019s about to come a detriment to M\u0101ori health statistics, it is to this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s an old saying that I remember Sir John Key used to say outside of Parliament. He\u2019d say, about a rising tide, that all boats rise. Well, my recommendation to the Minister and this Government is that the waka was left behind, that the only boats that rose here were the ones that have dictated to this Government that apparently there\u2019s special privilege for M\u0101ori. There is no privilege in dying seven years earlier\u2014show me where that privilege is. There is no privilege in higher rates of type 2 diabetes\u2014show me where that privilege is. There is no privilege for a higher death rate of lung cancer by M\u0101ori women\u2014there is no privilege in that. So I am extremely disappointed that today we are taking our people backwards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge all of the hard-working people in the health sector, not just the M\u0101ori health workers but all workers in the health sector: many M\u0101ori, many P\u0101keh\u0101 who have continued to support the health aspirations of M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe Minister, in his contribution in the third reading, said that his grand plan would take time. The Minister and this Government gave the M\u0101ori Health Authority 18 months\u201418 months\u2014to see whether or not they could turn around decades of inequities\u2014decades of inequities\u2014and I can guarantee that Minister and this Government that our people can\u2019t wait. He said it would take time; our people can\u2019t wait. They deserve better and we will be pushing this Government to make sure that they deliver that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EBack to the health workers. All have said to me and to us that their commitment to M\u0101ori health in this country is unwavering. I say thank you, and I say once again, \u201CKaua e mate wheke, mate \u0101 ururoa\u201D, to continue to fight for the health outcomes for M\u0101ori communities up and down this country. To the team at Te Aka Whai Ora, ka whawhai tonu m\u0101tou, and we will continue to fight and continue to champion the cause that you are all fighting for in our communities and in the bureaucracies that have been established by Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI also want to note the mishandling of this bill from its inception to here, the third reading, and even to its commencement date in June. My colleagues will no doubt flesh this out even further, but the mishandling has been absolutely appalling. It flies in the face of years and generations of work through the tribunal, good work through different shades of Government over decades, and it\u2019s absolutely shameful, the handling of this bill. The Minister admitted himself that the commencement date in June, set out in the bill, was to allow a transition, etc. But what we were saying was it should allow the voice of our people to be heard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI want to now turn to te reo M\u0101ori. Ki aku tamariki, i whawhai t\u014D p\u0101p\u0101 m\u014D te oati a t\u014D tupuna, a Erima, a t\u014D tupuna, a Rob Cooper. I tutuki ia, engari kua tukuna atu m\u0101 t\u0113tahi e whakakore. Ko t\u0101ku e oati atu ana ki a k\u014Drua, ki a koutou, ki t\u014D t\u0101ua iwi M\u0101ori, kei konei tonu t\u014D iwi e whawhai ana. Ka kore m\u0101tou e hinga, ka kore m\u0101tou pahemo. Ko t\u014D t\u0101ua whakapapa ki runga i te nukuroa ka haere tonu ki roto i ng\u0101 tau maha kei mua i a t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EE aku tamariki, ko taku oati ki a koe, ka whawhai tonu t\u014D p\u0101p\u0101, ka whawhai tonu t\u014D iwi, ka whawhai tonu te iwi M\u0101ori m\u014D \u0101ke, \u0101ke, \u0101ke.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E[To my children, your father fought for the vow made by your grandfather, by Erima, and your predecessor, by Rob Cooper. I was successful, but it has now been given over to someone else to abolish. What I vow to the two of you, to all of you, and to our M\u0101ori people, your people are still here fighting. We will not fall; we will not pass away. Our genealogy on the breadth of the land will continue throughout the many years that are before us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ETo my children, my vow to you, your father will continue to fight, your people will continue to fight, and your M\u0101ori people will continue to fight for ever and ever.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022 data-id=\u00229a5c2063c2de49999a322c0ff9adec4d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229a5c2063c2de49999a322c0ff9adec4d\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EKaranga, k\u0101rangaranga waiata wh\u0101nau e\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EUnuhia te rito o te harakeke, kei hea te k\u014Dmako e k\u014D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EWhakatairangitia, rere ki uta, rere ki tai\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EM\u0101u e k\u012B mai, \u201CHe aha te mea nui?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EM\u0101ku e k\u012B atu, \u201CHe tangata, he tangata, he tangata\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E[Call, put out the call, sing, family\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EPull out the new shoot of the flax bush, where will the bellbird then sing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EElevate it, fly inland, fly out to sea\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EShould you say to me, \u201CWhat is the greatest thing?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EI will say to you, \u201CIt is people, it is people, it is people\u201D.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EI share this waiata with us this morning as I grieve the loss of Te Aka Whai Ora. Because in te ao M\u0101ori we have a term, moumou, and Whaea Debbie Ngarewa-Packer spoke of the moumou of the loss of Efeso, and now we have the moumou of losing Te Aka Whai Ora through the acts of this Government through urgency in this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EThat waiata reflects on the importance of people at the centre of what we do and why we are here. I\u2019m not here to play games. I am focused on the health and wellbeing of our people. And when I see a blatant disregard for the people of New Zealand and te iwi M\u0101ori, to shut us out, to have an opinion on such an important piece of legislation\u20144,685 submitters contributed towards Pae Ora, and now, within a matter of hours, maybe a day and a half, we see the end of half of what Pae Ora set out to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EI reflect on the claimants and the aspirations and the challenges that they shared in the Wai 2575 health outcomes inquiry and the evidence that they contributed towards the landmark report, which set the framework for Te Pae Ora, and then the full health and disability systems review that took place that endorsed the same findings and recommendations of the Waitangi Tribunal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EBecause, you see, we have unacceptable M\u0101ori health inequalities. We suffer from institutional racism within the machine. The general health system has not improved M\u0101ori health outcomes. Approaches to design, purchasing, and contracting of health services have only worsened health inequalities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EYet, within a day and a half, we have heard no plan. We have just heard a repeal, a whakak\u0101hore, a whakakoretake ana i Te Aka Whai Ora. Ng\u0101 kaimahi, ng\u0101 kaum\u0101tua, ng\u0101 tohunga i tohua t\u0113r\u0101 r\u014Dp\u016B kia t\u016B motuhake m\u014D te hauora o te iwi M\u0101ori. E whakak\u0101hore ana i t\u0113nei pire motuhake te R\u014Dp\u016B K\u0101k\u0101riki. K\u0101hore te R\u014Dp\u016B K\u0101k\u0101riki e tautoko ana. Me t\u016B rangatira m\u014D te hauora M\u0101ori; me t\u016B motuhake t\u0113nei mea Te Aka Whai Ora ahakoa ng\u0101 mahi a t\u0113nei K\u0101wanatanga. Me pupuri tonu i t\u0113r\u0101 mauri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E[We have just heard a repeal, an abolishment, a negation of the purpose of the M\u0101ori Health Authority. The Green Party opposes this bill. The Green Party is not in support. We need to stand nobly for M\u0101ori health; this thing, the M\u0101ori Health Authority, should stand independently despite the actions of this Government. That life force should be maintained.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003ELast night, the Waitangi Tribunal, at 6 o\u2019clock\u2014you see, because I\u2019m watching the tribunal all the time. They confirmed that their jurisdiction had now ended; that they could not hold the urgent inquiry into the disestablishment of Te Aka Whai Ora. It\u2019s now vacated. All that time and energy from our claimants, our hap\u016B, our hauora M\u0101ori, our health leadership that contributed, e whakakoretake ana i \u0113r\u0101 kaik\u014Drero [they are negating those speakers]\u2014their work, their contributions, to uphold and share again, as they had previously done on Wai 2575. They were doing it on replay\u2014press replay, we\u2019re doing it again\u2014because that\u2019s how important Te Aka Whai Ora is to te iwi M\u0101ori. So I stand frustrated, I stand angry, and I feel ripped off for the people of New Zealand and te iwi M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EIn discussions and dialogue with Kahurangi Tureiti Moxon\u2014she\u2019s famous, you know. On Breakfast TV yesterday she shared about how important it was for Te Aka Whai Ora to exist; that we might have rima paih\u0113neti\u2014this little 5 percent of a budget to do something and have control over it; that we might have the ability to exercise our rangatiratanga over a tiny space of Vote Health. But instead, she shared on Breakfast TV yesterday, well, we\u2019re being plonked right back in where we started, and, in fact, into a system that\u2019s not working for M\u0101ori and hasn\u2019t worked for M\u0101ori and will never work for M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EBecause, you see, we were never asked if Te Aka Whai Ora should be disestablished. N\u0101 wai i teka kua t\u016B he hui? Kei hea ng\u0101 hui ki roto i Te Taitokerau m\u014D t\u0113nei kaupapa? Kahore.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E[Who lied that there were meetings held? Where were the meetings in Northland about this topic? There were none.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E Just because you campaigned on a kaupapa, doesn\u2019t mean that te iwi M\u0101ori gives you the whakaae [permission] to go ahead and disestablish this institution of rangatiratanga hauora M\u0101ori nei [M\u0101ori health sovereignty].\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003ESo I have to ask the Minister, his officials, and the Government: why do you believe that mainstream has the solutions for te iwi M\u0101ori? Why do you believe that we should be plonked right back into a system that has deprived us of thriving lives and only increased health inequalities for the people of te iwi M\u0101ori, let alone our t\u0101ngata whaikaha, let alone our rainbow communities, let alone migrants and immigrants and our refugees?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EI keep thinking of our kaimahi, and I worry for them, because will they get pay parity when they go into mainstream? Will our kaimahi be recognised for those skills that they have? Because, you see, they\u2019re specialists and they left Te Whatu Ora for Te Aka Whai Ora and other mainstream institutions to be steely-eyed focused on hauora M\u0101ori. So will they receive the gentle care that they so deserve?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EI heard from a cousin last night who works in Te Whatu Ora, and he shared how hard it was working in mainstream, being the one M\u0101ori in the team, and the battle it is for him to articulate ao M\u0101ori perspectives in a mainstream machine that really considers us all New Zealanders. Yet on our wards we need wh\u0101nau who can care, and that\u2019s why I think our kaimahi from Te Aka Whai Ora are so important. They sit in our hospitals. They are not a bureaucracy. Less than 300 kaimahi e t\u0101tou m\u0101. Let\u2019s not use the \u201CThis is a bureaucracy, a M\u0101ori bureaucracy\u201D. It isn\u2019t. It\u2019s less than 300 kaimahi. Riana Manuel, he taonga m\u014D te iwi M\u0101ori, he pou whirinaki m\u014D te hauora M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E[Riana Manuel, a treasure for the M\u0101ori people, a pillar of support for M\u0101ori health.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EShe comes with a whakapapa and a legacy of achievement, of advocacy, and knowledge of the health sector, let alone her m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori that she brings from Pare Hauraki. Riana stood at Healing Our Spirit Worldwide international indigenous conference last year in Canada, and she was our Aotearoa keynote. You know how proud te iwi M\u0101ori was standing alongside Riana and singing \u201CKa Pioioi\u201D for her? Because on the international stage, Te Aka Whai Ora means something\u2014Te Aka Whai Ora meant something in that gathering of 5,000 indigenous people. Yet we have a Government that doesn\u2019t care\u2014it doesn\u2019t care about the institution of Te Aka Whai Ora and this m\u0101reikura Riana Manuel who will lose her job, and where will she fit as the leader that she is in hauora M\u0101ori? As her kaimahi reach out to me and say, \u201CPlease protect Riana. She is inspiring. We need her. We cannot lose her.\u201D, we have failed, voted down. We could have deleted the clause and enabled her to lift and shift into the new machine, the 80,000plus strong workforce, and let her be the leader that she is, and pay her what she is worth, too\u2014just saying. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EChris Luxon has shared he wants te ao M\u0101ori to thrive, and when M\u0101ori do well, all New Zealanders do well. Well, show us the plan\u2014show us the plan e t\u0101tou m\u0101. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022 data-id=\u0022f6f5f25a557a4ad8857b9d645a696add\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f6f5f25a557a4ad8857b9d645a696add\u0022\u003ELAURA TRASK (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I stand on behalf of ACT in support of the Pae Ora (Disestablishment of M\u0101ori Health Authority) Amendment Bill. ACT believes that M\u0101ori should have equitable access to healthcare, but we believe that all New Zealanders should have the same level of access to healthcare no matter what ethnic group you belong to or where you live in our country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003EThe previous health system had many shortcomings and didn\u2019t address local issues such as those of iwi. But the M\u0101ori Health Authority provided another level of bureaucracy, another central government organisation that was failing to prove its worth. The authority\u2019s progress report found that concerns were raised about staff transfers not being focused on skills and expertise but, instead, on taking M\u0101ori staff from Te Whatu Ora. The report also found the authority was tracking behind in its delivery. Removing the authority did not remove provision for the Government to engage and consult with M\u0101ori on M\u0101ori matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003EACT believes in localism and in empowering communities and that healthcare delivers on needs, not race. We believe that healthcare is tailored to the individual. All in the coalition Government believe in better health outcomes for M\u0101ori and all New Zealanders without the addition of any unnecessary bureaucracy. When we lift the health of New Zealanders, we must not leave anybody behind, and this Government is addressing that. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf8318a87b93436d80763afe0c020d51\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf8318a87b93436d80763afe0c020d51\u0022\u003EJENNY MARCROFT (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I stand on behalf of New Zealand First in support of the Pae Ora (Disestablishment of M\u0101ori Health Authority) Amendment Bill. I begin my contribution by acknowledging that this bill delivers on the coalition commitment of all parties in this Government. I\u2019d like to thank the health Minister for his leadership on this bill and to actually acknowledge the support that New Zealand First will give him as he drives this mission to ensure we have equity of access and good, positive health gain for all New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First and the coalition Government remain committed to improving M\u0101ori health outcomes. The coalition Government supports a public health system that is keenly focused on delivering these positive health outcomes for all New Zealanders. New Zealand First believes that equity of access for all, based on need\u2014based on clinical need\u2014must be a core foundation in our public health system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003EMy leader, the Rt Hon Winston Peters, has always, in fact, been an opponent of the M\u0101ori Health Authority as a separatist, bureaucratic behemoth. M\u0101ori health equity should be matrixed right across the entire public health system because the delivery of M\u0101ori health gain is a fundamental responsibility of the entire public health system, and it is this public health system that is accountable for its delivery, but our health system is struggling. Why would it not be struggling? When you have a previous Government, during a pandemic, with once-in-a-generation health reforms, of course it was going to be struggling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022676b0bc5-331b-4818-b261-ecf892d0bf23\u0022\u003EThis next layer of bureaucracy has actually failed to deliver M\u0101ori health gain. Where are the outcomes? We have not seen any from this. But this coalition Government will continue work to provide better health outcomes for all New Zealanders. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00228b59f3dd9ca441969cb42e2166e8de4b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b59f3dd9ca441969cb42e2166e8de4b\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: This is a split call. Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori and Greens\u2014five minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022 data-id=\u002217e2b009bd5f4d9e8622d122fb547c4f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002217e2b009bd5f4d9e8622d122fb547c4f\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te P\u012Bka. Gosh, I wish we could have these people\u2019s eight minutes. First of all, I think it\u2019s really important to put context to the rest of Aotearoa, because that\u2019s who we\u2019re speaking to today, because taringa m\u0101r\u014D over to my left, they\u2019re not listening. They won\u2019t listen, and why would they listen when 83 percent of M\u0101ori did not support this Government? That is the important part of why we\u2019re here. It isn\u2019t about race or ethnicity; it\u2019s about rights. We have rights. We have rights and interests under Te Tiriti that were addressed here, that were addressing wrongs, and no one can deny those wrongs, because this House has acknowledged not only those Wai claims but the settlements of iwi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EWhat we have here is a weak Government that lacks courage to follow through on solutions that tangata w\u2019enua came up with for themselves. They lacked the courage to be transformational and instead have resorted back to the comfort of a system that they know really, really well, and they know it well because it was designed by the very people who took our land, our language. It\u2019s designed by the tools of colonisation\u2014and you may hate that word, but if the shoe fits, wear it. Just imagine what we could\u2019ve had. I refuse to have a tangi today, because all you\u2019ve done is rarked up the fire in our belly to come back at this a second time. Do not be fooled that your three\u2014if you\u2019re lucky, perhaps six\u2014years of holding this line is going to keep us down, because it won\u2019t. What we have is a Minister here who admits that the iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards need to be powered up; there was no when, there was no how; that we have a mass of data to be collected; there was no when, there was no how; that we have locality plans that need to be worked on; there was no when, there was no how; that we have regional empowerment strategies, but there was no when, there was no how.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003ESo I want to dive into what would have been\u2014what would have been\u2014and keep our w\u2019anau focused on what would have been if we didn\u2019t have to sit there and go to places and clinics and doctors that didn\u2019t recognise us, that we couldn\u2019t relate to; if we didn\u2019t have to feel judged; if we didn\u2019t have to be in a system that was designed to work against us, that wouldn\u2019t send us to the specialist. I want to focus on what we could have done and what we will do\u2014what we will do. I refuse to tangi, because you will not win\u2014you have never won at anything. This is the whole focus on where we get frustrated with you, that we continue to do things we could\u2019ve done. We could\u2019ve had free primary care for w\u2019anau, and we will do that. We could\u2019ve had free dental care for w\u2019anau, and we will do that. We could\u2019ve had free delivery of medication for houses for te w\u2019anau earning less than $60,000, and we will do that. We will implement a M\u0101ori health card, and we will have an independent M\u0101ori health authority. It will come back better, it will be stronger, and you will have less say in it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EThe beauty of it is that 70 percent of the population of M\u0101ori are under the age of 40, and you come from parties where your population aren\u2019t procreating and you aren\u2019t getting any younger. You are politicians on the eve of legacy parties, and you will not come back. You will not get a second chance at doing this. I feel we will have Mokopuna Ora. We will make sure that you all sit here, this Government, and enjoy your kai, enjoy the feast of your feats, enjoy celebrating and salivating in what you think you have done, enjoy thinking you have stopped us\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb2fa7622a294d45a48515d225baf8a6\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re enjoying delivering things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4d8940ac0794108ab2afad85a71b83f\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014especially you, Carl. Digest it well. Digest your racism well. Make sure it goes into your puku and sits heavy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b4596fb17fd4fcbb4c48afd3cf469a9\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Ms Ngarewa-Packer, you will withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b428e0888334663b9dac60ff49ee820\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. Enjoy\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c289a2847cb47cb8189af5d403a7b62\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: And you will also use full names.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c122681730b34b6dbcb96dd4439ffcb1\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER\u003C/span\u003E: Enjoy, Government, the feel of being anti-M\u0101ori, because this will not be something we let you forget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EWe will hold the Minister of Health to account. The Minister has guaranteed that the solution this Government promises will be better then what M\u0101ori designed. This Minister has promised that they will stand by and do better than what the M\u0101ori Health Authority promised to achieve. So we will hold the Government and the Minister to account. We will question you every chance we get. We will turn up in hordes of w\u2019anau every chance we get. We will make sure we will eyeball you when it comes back and you have failed us. We will not let this Government get off the skates, get off any hook, when it has failed us, because looking at this Government, not a single one of you uses the M\u0101ori Health Authority. Not a single one of you can talk for M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003ESo we will hold this Government to account. And I love that you\u2019re all animated. I love that this Government is animated. Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori will continue to hold you to account for what it is that you promised to do and don\u2019t achieve, and we will make sure our w\u2019anau see that you have done it as well. Kia ora r\u0101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6a5f80b83d147be8e9f9baf9cc1ed8a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6a5f80b83d147be8e9f9baf9cc1ed8a\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. Mr Speaker, I just want clarity. You asked Debbie Ngarewa-Packer, co-leader for Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori, to apologise for using the word \u201Cracism\u201D. In actual fact, there\u2019s nothing in the Standing Orders that says that you cannot use the word \u201Cracism\u201D. If you call somebody racist, yes, I understand that. But what you\u2019ve asked her to do is apologise for making the statement, and, actually, she was well within her rights to make it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022dbbcd66974dc4d3cb27ba99e1fbc211e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dbbcd66974dc4d3cb27ba99e1fbc211e\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Waititi, if you want to go back and have a look at the record, you will see that she actually referred to a member on my right specifically as racist. That was why I asked her to apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022 data-id=\u0022619e6a8108df43f99aec390ce40b4eca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022619e6a8108df43f99aec390ce40b4eca\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bcad245cd0849218ffdd7f17d47d1ad\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Is this a new point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214bd72ac65784ef583439b374c9246a4\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m speaking to the point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a540faa0e1e44d23a65378f7fef8cced\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, a new angle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1635e2a0d1d4b35a8da7cbacb659304\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI\u003C/span\u003E: The new angle is I think you need to go back and watch the video, because she used the word \u201Cracism\u201D; she didn\u2019t call that member a racist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00222f119eb671f145559178e338e38b4131\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f119eb671f145559178e338e38b4131\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you to that member. And, again, I\u2019ll invite him to look at the record.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u00222bd009bf9bef4015b3c7879cf947f118\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222bd009bf9bef4015b3c7879cf947f118\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDES MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a shame to see so many members from the Government who campaigned on pitting so many of our migrant communities against M\u0101ori for the breadcrumbs that this Government wants to deliver. They talk about this being about lifting outcomes for everyone, but, make no mistake: they don\u2019t want to do this either. What they want to do is undermine their commitment that they have to Te Tiriti o Waitangi. Te Aka Whai Ora represented an opportunity to move towards that. It represented an opportunity to deliver better health outcomes for everyone by actually supporting M\u0101ori to deliver better health outcomes for their own communities by devolving resources and, unlike what several Government members have outlined around this being Wellington bureaucracy, that actually would have enabled devolution of resources at a regional level. It\u2019s so important to push back against the narrative that it\u2019s actually not grounded on the aspirations that Te Aka Whai Ora represented.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThis debate failed to address that our health isn\u2019t just pinned down by how many hospitals this Government wants to build; it\u2019s pinned down by this Government\u2019s commitment to the social determinants of health, the wellbeing of our environment. So the Minister may want to look at this Government\u2019s agenda when he talks about better health outcomes, because this is the Government that is driving health outcomes down by lowering benefit increases and by railing against homes being healthy and fit for purpose, and that is continuing to push young people to live under the minimum wage. None of those things actually propels outcomes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ESo while we could take the Minister\u2019s words around his commitments to lifting health outcomes, his Government doesn\u2019t want to do any of that. So the Minister\u2014who is just walking out\u2014should really look back at\u2014[Interruption] But I\u2019m literally basically describing that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213938df56376493390458a8f1f21ff4f\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ffa792f97bb4377865192bcd5eec519\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: If the comment was that the member is leaving the House, the ruling is about the absence of a member from the House. So, in anticipation of your point of order, Mr Bates, I take it I have anticipated well? If only I was that good on the rugby field. Mr Men\u00E9ndez March, continue, and we\u2019ll just put the clock back for the time of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205565735aacf43d28719160ea78c5b3c\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Again, that reaction from the members is so indicative of their priorities. They get hung up about, for example, whether I almost called out someone as they were walking out, and yet what they should be outraged about is what their Government is doing to health outcomes by disestablishing Te Aka Whai Ora. Let\u2019s be clear: this is a Government that would rather get really worked up over the minutiae of this House rather than actually what we\u2019re doing, which is gutting an entity that would have delivered better health outcomes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThe Minister, once again, when he talked about his commitments to lifting M\u0101ori health outcomes, needs to realise who he is swimming alongside. He\u2019s swimming alongside a group of people who campaigned against M\u0101ori rights. He\u2019s going to be having to sit at the Cabinet table alongside colleagues who actively campaigned against M\u0101ori health outcomes. His words mean nothing when he is not putting safeguards and commitments to resourcing to lift M\u0101ori health outcomes, and when he\u2019s having to sit at a Cabinet table with people who were happy to sit with conspiracy theorists who literally rallied against the foundations of Te Tiriti o Waitangi. I don\u2019t care what the Minister\u2019s commitments are because he is part of a Government that is anti improving M\u0101ori health outcomes by the nature of undermining Te Tiriti o Waitangi. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EAs a migrant to Aotearoa, I will not stand by a narrative that promotes white supremacy and that promotes racism because what it does is actually undermines the rights of communities that have already been underserved by successive Governments. M\u0101ori health outcomes did not get to this point by just stasis; the state of M\u0101ori health outcomes came to this point because of ongoing colonial violence by successive Governments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ETe Aka Whai Ora represented an opportunity to redress some of those, and we needed to not just keep Te Aka Whai Ora; we needed to adequately resource it. This is what the Greens campaigned on. So we join with the cause of our colleagues who we will be fighting alongside to not just restore Te Aka Whai Ora but to adequately resource it so that the aspirations of Te Aka Whai Ora and the communities whom it represents are adequately met, because Te Aka Whai Ora wasn\u2019t an entity that was about bureaucracy; it was about working in an intersectional way to lift so many of our communities and it represented a new way of working across all Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022 data-id=\u002253a044a2e3e042c28c59d9d88c8a5e80\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253a044a2e3e042c28c59d9d88c8a5e80\u0022\u003ESAM UFFINDELL (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I just want to firstly acknowledge all the passion and care from around this House, especially on the Opposition benches. And I thank the members for their contributions, in particular the Hon Peeni Henare, you know, but I would also add that this Government is focused on outcomes and we, like you, want better quality care and we want better outcomes for M\u0101ori. We acknowledge that M\u0101ori are overrepresented in need, and I know our Minister is very focused on making sure that a service gets out to those areas where there is most need. We will retain the iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards, we want to empower them, we want to work with local communities, and we\u2014as the Minister stated\u2014believe local situations require local solutions. I want to thank the Minister for his dedication to improving health outcomes across New Zealand. I support this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea5cc78b2f3845dc9f64967645adabe6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea5cc78b2f3845dc9f64967645adabe6\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I want to thank the Minister of Health for nothing, actually. I can\u2019t be as generous as my brother Peeni Henare, but I tautoko to our former Minister Peeni for his wonderful mahi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EBut this is a shameful, shameful, shameful day for this Government. I remember when this kaupapa came through. The dreams of our people\u2014the entity, the waka, was fulfilling the dreams of our people. Our people always talked about a M\u0101ori health authority, and so many of us, so many people, thought it was impossible within the system. But here, through the great work of Andrew Little and Peeni Henare, we were able to shape this within the system, with support from our people on the outside\u2014no doubt about that. I mihi to our people on the outside. I mihi to the M\u0101ori Party for their support\u2014to the Green Party. But to have an entity like this within the system was considered absolutely impossible, and so, so many dreams are being smashed today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EBut that is the reality of this Government. In just four months, they\u2019ve rammed through anti-worker legislation, anti-M\u0101ori legislation, anti-renter legislation, and anti-environmental legislation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212afa3cd5cde4db794054c8234f14d97\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: And anti-beneficiary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b6c2b3b4a134f809b3b4056f185d3f8\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014or pushed through Parliament under urgency, with none of the critical oversight law required. And, as former Minister Carmel Sepuloni says, it\u2019s anti-beneficiary legislation, putting people into poverty. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003ESo this is a shameful, shameful day, particularly for the M\u0101ori members, who I notice are not present now, not here at all\u2014at all. [Interruption] No, no, no, no. I\u2019m sorry, but I\u2019m withdrawing M\u0101ori membership from those M\u0101ori members on the other side\u2014you don\u2019t deserve to be part of what we\u2019re doing. This is a disgraceful bill that your M\u0101ori members have rolled out. So shame, particularly on those members, today, and I say that because this is stamping on the mana and the aspirations and the dreams of our people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EI\u2019m not denying our members over there whakapapa M\u0101ori\u2014absolutely\u2014but our people are embarrassed by them. They\u2019re embarrassed by their actions. They can get all the support from their P\u0101keh\u0101 journalist friends, who think they do wonderful maiden speeches, but they have no standing\u2014no standing\u2014in te ao M\u0101ori. Minimal\u2014zero standing. No one even knows who these M\u0101ori members are. Who are they? Who are they? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EDr Reti, like Peeni Henare, is someone who I\u2019ve respected through the years, but he has let his wh\u0101nau down and he has let his whakapapa down today. It\u2019s a shameful, shameful act for someone who should know better\u2014someone who is a good man, but, sadly, is under the pressure of a Government who is intent on removing every right that M\u0101ori has. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EIt doesn\u2019t matter if you\u2019re right wing or left wing; you have to have due process. But this Government is into public health vandalism. That\u2019s what this is all about. National are participating in the public health vandalism because Winston Peters and David Seymour have dragged the Prime Minister all the way to the right\u2014of that there is no doubt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296a40260a1a0491ab17fb66e7e4c15f4\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s not reading it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e644d6d11e4471a851a9edf01a20369\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I don\u2019t have to read. National don\u2019t want any scrutiny of public health vandalism, basically, because they\u2019re cowards\u2014there\u2019s no doubt about it. They have no respect for due process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003ELook at what\u2019s going to happen very shortly. We\u2019ve got the smoke-free legislation coming up. There will be 8,000 deaths\u20148,000 deaths\u2014from dumping smoke-free amendments. That\u2019s what we\u2019re talking about\u2014an extra 8,000 deaths. We\u2019re remodelling the COVID inquiry into an anti-vax circus for Winston\u2019s crazy conspiracy mates. So they\u2019re going down that track\u2014this is what they\u2019re doing\u2014and now we\u2019re ramming through killing off the M\u0101ori Health Authority to stop M\u0101ori from having their day in court with the Waitangi Tribunal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Health Authority gave us the bureaucratic muscle to ensure M\u0101ori health outcomes mattered, but this new, reactionary Government has turned the whole debate into a health apartheid narrative. That\u2019s what\u2019s happened here. They\u2019ve turned everything, and it\u2019s all got the narrative around\u2014we heard the stupid ACT member waffling on, whose leader can\u2019t even be bothered turning up: \u201COh, this is about need, not race.\u201D Oh, really?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218c0376afc9d459ab6a21b4886a178c0\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Willie Jackson, please, you have been here long enough to understand the rules about that referral.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1250dc354b8413683839fc5c303b366\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Need and race go together, and the reality is that that member has no idea what she\u2019s talking about, as her leader has used the race argument to advance himself and his \u201CM\u0101ori party\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EIt does worry us that they\u2019re not following democratic processes, because this is what they talk about all the time. It\u2019s an affront to wonderful spokespeople, wonderful advocates whom I spoke about yesterday, like Dr Mason Durie. They don\u2019t have the politics of some of us. Dr Mason Durie, as I said\u2014despite who his son-in-law is\u2014is one of the most apolitical people you could get. You could not get better people than Dr Mason Durie; Dr Rawiri Jansen; Awerangi Tamihere, who was on the M\u0101ori Health Authority; Dr Anthony Jordan; Dr Lily Fraser; Tureiti Moxon; Papaarangi Reid\u2014these are our people who have fought the fight, and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3a88c42-f60b-4cf9-8065-8bfb80a020eb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ef7f8558b0544cbb187116d8e590fbe\u0022\u003EHon Carmel Sepuloni\u003C/span\u003E: And they are experts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210f15610fd894150b0d1c517a1adba13\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: They are experts, but the members opposite clearly don\u2019t want to know anything about them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EWe have an obligation as a Parliament to pass legislation that helps and enables our people. How does this help our people? That\u2019s what the question is. Dr Reti is talking about devolving, but he is purposely denying the Waitangi Tribunal its opportunity in the most disrespectful way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EIt breaks our hearts. Many of these our members here\u2014you\u2019ve heard some of our MPs in tears. I\u2019ve heard Willow-Jean Prime. We\u2019ve heard H\u016Bhana Lyndon. They speak and they cry. They cry because of the lost opportunity. It\u2019s a lost opportunity in terms of our people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EBut I tautoko what Willow-Jean has said, what H\u016Bhana has said, and what Debbie Ngarewa-Packer has said when she talked about how we should not tangi, and that is because we live for another day. There will be another day. There will be another day when this useless, pathetic Government has to stand down. It\u2019s a political stunt, and the most ugly of stunts. It\u2019s shameful that on the other side, they don\u2019t see and hear what we say. They don\u2019t hear our experts. They don\u2019t see\u2014you don\u2019t feel the k\u014Drero out there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003ESo we hear this \u201CWill M\u0101ori buy into what\u2019s going now?\u201D\u2014I think that\u2019s probably the next question. Everyone knows that M\u0101ori don\u2019t have any options. We have no options; we have to engage with these mongrels. That\u2019s just the reality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9f06830932c47059eeb6b32816374e1\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Excuse me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220075a82a310d4bf9a4e1b0827f9a29a5\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, is that unparliamentary? OK, I apologise for that. But that\u2019s a fact\u2014we have to engage with this lot. Well, where do we go? If we don\u2019t engage, we get nothing, so it\u2019s either nothing or something. So our people will negotiate, they\u2019ll grab the crumbs, and they\u2019ll pick up contracts. We know they\u2019re going to devolve to a few people. We know what the strategy is\u2014we\u2019ve been around a long time\u2014\u201COh, we\u2019ll pick out this one. We\u2019ll pick out that one.\u201D Will our people line up? Well, of course our people will line up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022777dfe4139c349cdad947dc9bfe46565\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: JT will give the member some hours.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022073ee633fb1d4c1881c1391e3e977999\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, you can talk about JT or whatever, but the reality is he\u2019s a pragmatist. The reality is our people are pragmatists. They know that it\u2019s either the crumbs or nothing\u2014it\u2019s either the crumbs or nothing. So I will urge our people to do business with these people on the other side, Madam Speaker. I will urge them to do business, because otherwise there\u2019s no business and our people will continue to die.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003EI want to finish by again congratulating ourselves on this side for fighting the fight\u2014in particular, our former Ministers Peeni Henare and Willow-Jean Prime really have advocated this kaupapa proudly for us. I\u2019m really proud of their advocacy. I\u2019m proud also of the Labour Party, who supported us all the way through; former Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern, who loved the idea; current leader, Chris Hipkins\u2014\u201CChippy\u201D is doing such a wonderful job\u2014Carmel Sepuloni, our deputy leader. It\u2019s been a great privilege to have our party backing this, and, as I said earlier, there will be another day\u2014that is what we know. Kia ora, Madam Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022 data-id=\u002259c547e42699401cb50be1977bd8ea04\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002259c547e42699401cb50be1977bd8ea04\u0022\u003EDr HAMISH CAMPBELL (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak in support of the Pae Ora (Disestablishment of M\u0101ori Health Authority) Amendment Bill in its third reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003EI would like to thank all the members who have actually mentioned health outcomes, because that really was the most important thing here. Regardless of organisational form, this remains, and it needs to be addressed to make sure we have better health outcomes for M\u0101ori, and also non-M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003EI thank those people that have mentioned the M\u0101ori health providers that are caring both for M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori, which is great and it will continue as we look into the future. We want M\u0101ori providers to provide care for non-M\u0101ori and for M\u0101ori, and we want non-M\u0101ori health providers to provide for M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003EI want to shout out to all our healthcare workers in New Zealand working around the clock to provide the best health outcome to all New Zealanders, which is currently in a very challenging system. I just want to acknowledge that they will use the best tools they have to their advantage to make sure of the best outcomes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003EWe have aspirin, which we have taken from the Greeks; we have quinine, which we have taken from the Peruvians; and we take the best to make sure our doctors and nurses can provide the best for their patients, regardless of where it\u2019s coming from. Therefore, that\u2019s why I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002283b847cead40461eb32e4a9c683b1a82\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283b847cead40461eb32e4a9c683b1a82\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The next call is a split call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u0022cbff32bf0eb846d09a8aba8d53be8fa8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cbff32bf0eb846d09a8aba8d53be8fa8\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. The disestablishment of Te Aka Whai Ora, the M\u0101ori Health Authority, today returns M\u0101ori to disproportionate harm. I want to take a moment to acknowledge all the kaimahi, all of the health practitioners, all of the kaiurungi who have done the hard fight, year in, year out to where we got to establish an independent voice for M\u0101ori in the structures of our health system that, we know, wasn\u2019t working for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EWhen I return to my marae at Moawhango, I want to go back and tell them that I\u2019ve done better for them by serving in this House. Today, some in this House will have to go back to their marae to tell them that they are returning their wh\u0101nau back to a system where our people die seven years earlier than their non-M\u0101ori counterparts. The blood of their t\u016Bpuna will stain their hands for ever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EI wonder if the doctors in this House who have supported the disestablishment of the M\u0101ori Health Authority today have abandoned their ethical principles that they were once asked to uphold as medical professionals\u2014to act with integrity and in the best interests of their patients. Just not the M\u0101ori ones. How morally bankrupt do you have to become to sell out your own people and communities for a couple of trinkets and baubles of political office and a bit of a campaign clickbait? It should be a timely reminder for all people that it might be our health sovereignty and opportunities they are stealing today. But rest assured, they are coming for yours tomorrow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003ETe Aka Whai Ora isn\u2019t bureaucracy, as the Prime Minister so casually regards it to be. It\u2019s a chance for M\u0101ori to make meaningful decisions about improving their health outcomes through commissioning the services they need, delivered in a way that they want rather than have the same stale ideas rammed down their throats by the greatest pack of bureaucrats that we have ever seen\u2014the other side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EThe establishment of Te Aka Whai Ora included the Waitangi Tribunal\u2019s hauora report, and by God, I am disappointed that we didn\u2019t have the respect to wait two days to hear of that hearing. This is a breach of mana motuhake, the incremental steps that this work has done to achieve better outcomes for M\u0101ori, to give M\u0101ori a voice, steps towards tino rangatiratanga.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge those that put the work in to put the hearing in place before the Waitangi Tribunal: Lady Tureiti Moxon, Rawiri Jansen, and all of our M\u0101ori health practitioners. Today I salute you for the hard yards that you\u2019ve done, and, by God, we stand with you moving forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EI want to push back on the non-M\u0101ori across the House that take cheap shots at Te Aka Whai Ora and say it didn\u2019t deliver anything. That is false. The strength of Te Aka Whai Ora lies in its independence from the Crown and its ability to provide coordinated and independent M\u0101ori-focused advice, policy, advocacy, and commission, and one year in we have seen incremental change. We have seen outcomes\u2014and tell me of a structural shift in this country\u2019s history in Aotearoa New Zealand where we have measured the achievements and results within only 12 months, but we only do this to M\u0101ori. It is unfair, it is disgraceful, and every M\u0101ori on that side of the House, every member of this Government, should hang their heads in shame. And when you go to your own marae, you tell your wh\u0101nau that you are disgraceful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022 data-id=\u0022029af469a13e4099aba4f09dd8009ac0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022029af469a13e4099aba4f09dd8009ac0\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Te Aka Whai Ora\u2014the M\u0101ori Health Authority\u2014was never really equipped to undo the health inequities for M\u0101ori. Those gaps are huge, and the responsibility lies much further outside the health system. It\u2019s for the entire economy, and it\u2019s for all of our Government to take note of those inequities because we can\u2019t fix them within health alone; it has to be done across the board. So I don\u2019t believe that this change will have any effect other than to get rid of a bureaucracy that wasn\u2019t doing anything. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003EThose strong M\u0101ori health providers will still be working for M\u0101ori health, and everybody in the health system will be doing the same. I believe that this change is needed because the only symbolism that I remember was the two waka lashed together\u2014really, those two lashed together. What we had was a ship the size of the Titanic with a dingy attached to the back\u2014that\u2019s the real symbolism. So now we undo this, and I commend the bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u002232e8fb0155e242d69898c300a6b05c5f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002232e8fb0155e242d69898c300a6b05c5f\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EK\u0101re te mamae te w\u0101hi ake ne\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EKa whakapatu ana te tau o taku ate i\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EKi te iwi r\u0101 e tahurihia atu r\u0101\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EKi raro ki te maru o te Ku\u012Bni e i\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EHei h\u0101pai mai i te patu a ware\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EKi runga ki taku kiri ng\u0101rahu e i\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ETe ng\u016B o taku ihu na i\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E[The great anguish that cleaves\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EThat assaults the strings of my heart\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ETo the people that turned away\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EUnder the mantle of the Queen\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ETo raise the weapon of the ignorant\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EUpon my darkened skin\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EThe tattooed scrolls of my nose]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EKa t\u012Bmata ake taku k\u014Drero whakamutunga i roto i t\u0113nei Whare i te p\u0101nuitanga tuatoru o t\u0113nei pire whakak\u0101hore i Te Aka Whai Ora. I t\u012Bmata taku k\u014Drero i t\u0113tahi waiata tawhito n\u0101 te tupuna a Kawiti. E te M\u0101ngai o te Whare, ko ng\u0101 kupu kei roto i t\u0113r\u0101 w\u0101hanga o te waiata ki ng\u0101 M\u0101ori i huri ki raro i te maru o te Ku\u012Bni hei h\u0101pai mai i te patu a ware, taku kiri ng\u0101rahu e, te ng\u016B o taku ihu.\u00A0\u00A0\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EKo wai r\u0101tou hei huri ki te tautoko i te patu i te iwi M\u0101ori? He M\u0101ori e patu ana i te iwi M\u0101ori. Koir\u0101 te mahi a t\u0113nei pire kua tau mai nei ki roto i t\u0113nei Whare inanahi, i t\u0113nei r\u0101 hoki. N\u014D reira he waiata tangi t\u0113r\u0101, he waiata tangi ki \u014Dku whanaunga e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare, n\u0101 te mea ko r\u0101tou e \u0101rahi ana i t\u0113nei kaupapa hei takahi, takahi i te Tiriti o Waitangi. Takahi, takahi i te iwi M\u0101ori. Takahi, takahi i ng\u0101 moemoe\u0101, ng\u0101 wawata o w\u014D t\u0101tou t\u016Bpuna, o te n\u0101ianei, o te \u0101p\u014Dp\u014D hoki.\u00A0\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EKoir\u0101 t\u0101 r\u0101tou mahi i roto i t\u0113nei Whare P\u0101remata, n\u014D reira e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare, i t\u012Bmata taku k\u014Drero i te tangi, i te m\u014Dteatea o t\u0113tahi o ng\u0101 t\u016Bpuna n\u0101na i haina te Tiriti o Waitangi. Ko tana tohu tuatahi i runga i te Tiriti o Waitangi.\u00A0\u00A0\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EE te M\u0101ngai o te Whare, e m\u014Dhio ana t\u0101tou katoa, n\u0101 te mea i rongo ahau, e m\u014Dhio ana te K\u0101wanatanga ki ng\u0101 tatauranga. E ai ki ng\u0101 tatauranga m\u014D te hauora, ko te iwi M\u0101ori kei raro e putu ana. E ai ki ng\u0101 tatauranga, ka mate moata a Ng\u0101i M\u0101ori, e whitu tau.\u00A0\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EN\u0101 ko Te Aka Whai Ora t\u0113tahi kaupapa k\u0101tahi an\u014D ka whakat\u016Bria, k\u0101tahi an\u014D ka whakat\u016Bria. K\u0101hore i roa ka whakamatea, n\u0101 t\u0113r\u0101 taha. I whakat\u016Bria Te Aka Whai Ora i runga i te tono a t\u0113tahi r\u014Dp\u016B i \u0101ta titiro, \u0101ta whakaaro i te rangahau, ng\u0101 tatauranga kei mua i a r\u0101tou; the Health and Disability Commission. N\u0101 r\u0101tou te k\u014Drero me whakat\u016B Te Aka Whai Ora. He aha ai? T\u0113r\u0101 pea hei rongoa m\u014D \u0113r\u0101 tatauranga.\u00A0\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u0100e, e tika ana, ko te Taraipiunara t\u0113tahi atu n\u0101 r\u0101tou te k\u012B, whakat\u016Bria t\u0113tahi kaupapa M\u0101ori i roto i te hauora. T\u0113r\u0101 pea hei rongoa m\u014D \u0113r\u0101 tatauranga. I mahi kaha m\u0101tou i te w\u0101 i a m\u0101tou i te K\u0101wanatanga. Kaha. Kei hea taku whanaunga, kei konei. I kite au, i pau tana kaha ki te whakat\u016B i t\u0113nei. E m\u014Dhio ana ia t\u014Dna kaha i whakapau, t\u014Dna hoa rangatira, tana kaha i whakapau m\u014D t\u0113nei kaupapa.\u00A0\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EN\u0101 te mea e m\u014Dhio ana m\u0101tou ki ng\u0101 tatauranga. \u014C m\u0101tou whanaunga i mate ohorere, i mate whitu tau moata, ko taku p\u0101p\u0101 t\u0113tahi. Koir\u0101 te take i t\u016B ahau inanahi, i tangi ahau, n\u0101 te mea e m\u014Dhio ana ahau ki ng\u0101 tatauranga kei roto i t\u014Dku whare, kei roto i t\u014Dna whare. Ko tana p\u0101p\u0101 t\u0113tahi. Ko te matua e takoto ana ki te marae o Ng\u0101ti Manu t\u0113tahi. Ko t\u0113nei kaupapa o Te Aka Whai Ora t\u0113tahi kaupapa hei rongoa pea m\u014D \u0113r\u0101 tatauranga e m\u014Dhiotia wh\u0101nuitia.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EEngari e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare, te Minita hou, hei ko t\u0101na tekau m\u0101 waru marama kua pahure, horekau he k\u014Drero pai i puta mai i t\u0113nei n\u014D reira me whakamate. E k\u012B, e ki! I noho ahau ki te whakarongo ki w\u0101na k\u014Drero, he aha tana rautaki? He aha te mahere? Kahore ahau i paku rongo i t\u0113tahi mea i puta mai i tana waha he pai ake i Te Aka Whai Ora.\u00A0\u00A0\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EMe m\u014Dhio t\u0113nei Whare, kahore te Minita i k\u014Drero ki te iwi M\u0101ori e p\u0101 ana ki t\u0113nei. Kahore ia i haere ki te noho tahi, k\u014Drero tahi ki \u014Dna hoa Tiriti, kahore. Tau mai t\u0113nei pire, ohorere, ka pahure \u0101 muri ake nei. Kahore ia i tatari kia noho te Taraipiunara ki te whakarongo ki ng\u0101 ker\u0113me a ng\u0101 whanaunga o te Minita. I k\u012B ahau ko t\u0113tahi o ng\u0101 kaiker\u0113me ko tana hap\u016B, o Te Kapotai. E m\u014Dhio ana ahau e haere mai ana ng\u0101 kaik\u014Drero o Te Taitokerau ki te waha i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero e whakah\u0113 ana i wana mahi whakak\u0101hore, whakakore i Te Aka Whaiora.\u00A0\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI m\u014Dhio ia kei te haere t\u0113r\u0101 nohoanga o te Taraipiunara. Engari e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare, k\u012Bhai ia i paku whakaaro ki t\u0113r\u0101. Ka t\u016B t\u0113nei pire i t\u0113nei r\u0101, n\u014D reira kua whakakorengia t\u0113r\u0101 nohoanga o te Taraipiunara. I k\u012B ahau i roto i taku k\u014Drero, he aha te take i tino ohorere t\u0113nei mahi, tino tere t\u0113nei mahi? N\u0101 te mea ka t\u012Bmata \u0101 te mutunga o Hune. Ko t\u0101ku e whakapono ana he haukoti i te mana o te Taraipiunara, hei haukoti i \u014Dna whanaunga i haere mai ki te whakah\u0113 i \u0101na mahi.\u00A0\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EE te M\u0101ngai o te Whare, e tautoko ana ahau i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero ki ng\u0101 kaimahi o Te Aka Whai Ora, ki ng\u0101 kaimahi M\u0101ori i roto i te hauora. E tika ana ng\u0101 k\u014Drero: tai timu; tai pari. Ka hoki an\u014D t\u0101tou ki t\u0113nei kaupapa \u0101 t\u014Dna w\u0101 ki te whakatika, ki te whakatika i ng\u0101 h\u0113 i mahia i roto i t\u0113nei Whare i t\u0113nei r\u0101. E tika ana te k\u014Drero, n\u0101 t\u0113nei K\u0101wanatanga e hoki muri ana t\u0101tou. Hoki muri. Hoki muri ki w\u0113r\u0101 tatauranga kino rawa atu.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EE te M\u0101ngai o te Whare, ka mutu aku k\u014Drero i t\u0113tahi rerenga i roto i te waiata n\u0101 te mea, te nui o ng\u0101 k\u014Drero kua whakap\u0101 mai ki ahau inap\u014D, i t\u0113nei r\u0101 hoki, ka whawhai tonu t\u0101tou, m\u0101tou, \u0101ke \u0101ke \u0101ke. I roto i te waiata, \u201Ce kore au e mutu te t\u016B ki te pakanga e i, kia kai r\u0101 an\u014D i te rerehua o te p\u014D i\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E[My final speech in this House in the third reading of this bill that disestablishes the M\u0101ori Health Authority has begun. My speech began with an ancient song composed by the ancestor Kawiti. The words within that excerpt of the song are to the M\u0101ori people that turned coat under the mantle of the Queen to raise the weapon of the ignorant, my darkened skin, the tattooed scrolls of my nose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EWho are they to turn and support the assault upon the M\u0101ori people? It is M\u0101ori assaulting the M\u0101ori people. That is the action of this bill that has come into this House yesterday, and today too. So that is a song of lament, a song of lament to my relations, because it is them that are leading this initiative to trample, trample on the Treaty of Waitangi. Trample, trample on the M\u0101ori people. Trample, trample on the dreams, the aspirations of our ancestors, of today, and of tomorrow also.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EThat is what they are doing in this Parliament House, and so I began my speech with a lament, a song of grief of one of the ancestors who signed the Treaty of Waitangi. His was the first mark made on the Treaty of Waitangi.\u00A0\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EWe all know, because I have heard, that the Government is aware of the statistics. According to the statistics for health, it is the M\u0101ori people that are at the bottom out on their backs. According to the statistics, the M\u0101ori people are dying earlier, seven years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ENow, the M\u0101ori Health Authority is an initiative that has only recently been established. And before long it is killed off, by that side. The M\u0101ori Health Authority was established on the request of a group that carefully examined and carefully considered the research and the statistics in front of them, the Health and Disability Commission. It was the commission who said the M\u0101ori Health Authority should be established. Why? As a possible solution for those statistics.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EYes, it is true, the tribunal is another that said to establish a M\u0101ori initiative within the health sector. as a possible solution for those statistics. We worked hard at the time that we were in Government. Hard. Where is my relation? Here he is. I saw that his strength was expended to establish this. He knows the extent to which his strength was expended and his partner\u2019s strength was expended for this initiative.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EBecause we are aware of the statistics. Our relations that passed away suddenly, that died seven years early\u2014my father is one of them. That is the reason I cried when I stood yesterday\u2014because I know the statistics are in my home; they are in his home. His father is another. The patriarch that lies in state on the marae of Ng\u0101ti Manu is another. This initiative of the M\u0101ori Health Authority is an initiative that could be a solution to those statistics that are widely known.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EAccording to the new Minister, in the last 18 months that have passed there has been no good news emerge from this, and because of that it should be killed off. Is that right? I sat and listened to his comments; what is his strategy? What is the plan? I didn\u2019t hear at all a single thing come out of his mouth that is better than the M\u0101ori Health Authority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EThis House should know that the Minister didn\u2019t speak to the M\u0101ori people about this. He didn\u2019t go to sit with, and to discuss with, his Treaty partners, not at all. This bill arrived, a surprise, and will shortly be passed. He didn\u2019t wait for the tribunal to sit and listen to the claims of the relations of the Minister. I said that one of the claimants is his hap\u016B, Te Kapotai. I know that the speakers of Northland are coming to give voice to the opinions that are in opposition to his disestablishing actions, disestablishing the M\u0101ori Health Authority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EHe knew that that sitting of the tribunal was ongoing. But he didn\u2019t consider that at all. This bill will stand this day, so that sitting of the tribunal has been cancelled. I said in my speech: what is the reason for the extreme urgency of this work, the extreme pace of this work? Because it begins at the end of June. What I believe is that this is a preclusion of the authority of the tribunal, to cut off his relations that came to oppose his actions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI support the comments made to the staff of the M\u0101ori Health Authority, to the M\u0101ori staff within the health sector. The comments are true: as the tide goes out, it will come in again. We will return to this initiative at an appropriate time to correct the mistakes made in this House today. The statement is true: because of this Government, we are going backwards. Going backwards. Going back to those ever so dire statistics.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EMy comments will conclude with a line in the song, because of the sheer volume of messages that I received last night, and today also. We will continue to fight, well we will, for ever and ever. In the song, \u201CNever to end the stand to fight, until I consume the beauty of the night.\u201D]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f43f44a7abae41fcb67cc36828cbe70d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f43f44a7abae41fcb67cc36828cbe70d\u0022\u003EDr CARLOS CHEUNG (National\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E During the select committee stage, a member from the opposite side was talking on behalf of the first generation of immigrants. As an elected MP for Mt Roskill, the electorate consists of more than 100 ethnicities and a large population of migrants, I can tell you\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022345f1ddf5624434cb55e1a035cea1e9a\u0022\u003ESteve Abel\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Just for the clarity of the record, Madam Speaker, the member said that there was a select committee stage, and it should be clear that there was no select committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ff067719c3f4cffa3fd004ac4019d3c\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member. Carry on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228282e77c617d4885bf348e181ee9cc35\u0022\u003EDr CARLOS CHEUNG\u003C/span\u003E: Anyway, as an elected MP for Mt Roskill, the electorate consists of more than 100 ethnicities and a large population of migrants, and I can tell you that people in Mt Roskill, people in New Zealand, want a fair health system they can rely on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022\u003EI agree with the member of the opposite side that our healthcare system is broken because under previous Government, our healthcare system was delivered based on race, not needs. This led to a number of health outcomes continuing to go backwards, including the emergency department waiting times hitting the highest level in a decade. We definitely need change, and this Government is committed to bring our health system back on track: a health system that can deliver service on needs not race, and a health system that can benefit both M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002251e0c2ec87b541a9aabb0bf72310cf3a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Pae Ora (Disestablishment of M\u0101ori Health Authority) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000436\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224da774c83f554194a53ef269c9cfb8e6\u0022\u003ESmokefree Environments and Regulated Products Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c37b8e16bb5940b6b90e39bb3234288b\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u00229c0537f941804b49bbd14058896eeec9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c0537f941804b49bbd14058896eeec9\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Amendment Bill. I move, That the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Amendment Bill be now read a first time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EThis bill is primarily about giving effect to one of the Government\u2019s 100-day plan commitments by reversing the changes the previous Government made to the regulation of smoked tobacco products. The bill removes the previous Government\u2019s policies in three areas primarily: to cut by 90 percent the number of retailers that could sell smoked tobacco products, which was to happen later this year; introduce a low nicotine limit, which was to happen next year; and a policy to ban sales to all those born after 1 January 2009 that was planned to take effect in 2027. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003ETo be clear, none of the measures being repealed are in place. Like so many of the previous Government\u2019s initiatives, the smoke-free initiatives were, to be generous, intangible. We are not stopping anything that is currently helping to drive smoking rates down, and that is the Government\u2019s focus: we want smoking rates to reduce, we want the harm from smoking to reduce. This Government is committed to the Smokefree 2025 goal, but we are taking a different regulatory approach to reducing smoking rates and the harm from smoking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EWe know smoking is harmful, everyone knows this, smokers know it. What they need is help to quit and what we are going to focus on is providing them the programmes, tools, and support to do this. New Zealand has seen some of the largest drops in smoking rates across the world in recent years, and we want to build on the practical tools and approaches that have worked to date. That means reverting back to, then building upon, the regulatory regime that Labour planned to change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EThe settings we are focusing upon have been incredibly successful. The New Zealand Health Survey results released in December last year showed that 6.8 percent of New Zealanders are smoking daily, down from 8.6 percent the previous year, and down from 16.4 percent when the survey began in 2011 and 2012. In the last three years, 229,000 people have stopped smoking. If those trends continue without any additional measures, New Zealand will hit the headline smoke-free goal of less than 5 percent of the population smoking daily by 2025. Importantly, 79,000 of those who stopped smoking, more than a third of those who quit, were M\u0101ori. As for the smoke-free generation, in the last three years, the quit rate for young smokers\u2014those aged 15 to 24\u2014has been 31 percent in 2021, 37 percent in 2022, and 42 percent last year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EWhen the health survey started in 2011 and 2012, there were 119,000 young smokers. Last year, there were 19,000. Young people\u2014and this is a very good thing\u2014are turning their back on smoking: a generation that are non-smokers. These achievements have all occurred since the modelling behind the last Government\u2019s initiatives were done. These achievements were well in advance of the starting position of the modelling, which has been referenced as justification for the measures we are repealing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EWe have seen success worth giving recognition to. This is what is happening in the real world: our smoking rates have fallen drastically in recent times, better than in any other developed country. This is one of the few areas where the last Government could have actually claimed success in health. Instead of that, they seemed obsessed with trying to prove they loved a good slogan. The last Government was moving towards an untested regime with a focus on prohibition that ignored how well quit-smoking initiatives were working, the potential downside of a prohibitionist approach for smokers, and also the impact on retailers and crime was being ignored or, at the very least, trivialised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EThis Government isn\u2019t interested in the virtue signalling in health. We are about measurable outcomes and, importantly, on getting smokers the right resources to enable them to quit. This is why we are progressing the amendment bill. We want an approach on the regulation of tobacco that allows a practical, workable, and tested approach to reducing smoking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EI spoke in particular of the gains we have made with youth smoking. This means that most of those who currently smoke daily are mostly long-term smokers who are addicted to nicotine, and that\u2019s who we need to focus on. That\u2019s who we need to help. When dealing with an addiction of this nature, reduced supply does not remove demand and it presents a real risk of increasing demand and increasing desperation. Tobacco-control initiatives should work for and be targeted to those who need it most, including M\u0101ori and Pacific peoples who have higher rates of smoking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EWe cannot ignore that vaping played a key role as a cessation tool. It is a major reason we have made such progress and we need to ensure that vaping is available to adults for that purpose. This Government supports initiatives that will provide people with practical tools and access to alternate products like vaping, to help smoking cessation. We also want to ensure continued provision of effective, targeted stop-smoking services and marketing campaigns. We will provide smokers a range of tools, advice, and support that will work for them and that will help them to quit smoking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EWe have seen that approach is working, and I will soon be taking a package of measures to Cabinet to increase the tools available that will actually help quit smoking, while at the same time tightening regulations on vaping to prevent young people accessing vapes. Good policy requires balance, and it is important we balance the need to continue to allow vaping as a cessation tool while minimising the impact on our young people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EThis Government wants workable, practical policy that improves people\u2019s lives and we are committed to our smoke-free future. I commend the bill to the House. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u00227b21c8e4262c47b1aba1a3b51b813343\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b21c8e4262c47b1aba1a3b51b813343\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the Opposition):\u003C/span\u003E As a four-year-old, I recall sitting on my grandmother\u2019s armchair while I took a puff on her cigarette. I didn\u2019t much like it, but the thing that I liked even less was the look of horror on the face of my parents that my grandmother would have allowed me to do that. But the thing is my grandmother, at that point, didn\u2019t know better, because the overwhelming evidence that now exists didn\u2019t exist 40-odd years ago. My parents were more aware of the risk of smoking, but my grandparents were not. So that was their excuse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EMy question to the members opposite is simple: what\u2019s your excuse, because the evidence is now overwhelmingly clear\u201412 people a day in New Zealand die from smoking-related illness, and this Government wants to liberalise the sale of tobacco. Where is your moral compass? What is it that has happened between pre-election and post-election that has forced you to completely abandon the platform that you campaigned on? Why is it that you now believe that liberalising the sale of cigarettes is an appropriate way to raise half a billion dollars in revenue every year so that you can fund tax cuts that will disproportionately benefit the wealthiest New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286c2d9702a4049ae9a42fc3eb6ceade6\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I interrupt the member and remind the member not to bring the Speaker into this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ef2761ee1834e78bc851517e1dece24\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not, Madam Speaker. In fact, I made it very clear that these were questions to the members opposite, but thank you for doing the Government\u2019s bidding by interrupting my flow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297714fb6fb274ab4a35ca049823514c6\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The member will stop.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a0aef0aaa344838af163869249f060c\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: This is a Government that has no moral compass\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220cc5ba9fedef45acb714d10b74effab1\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The member will stop.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022478ce62006a74eeea7bf8da8041d7eb5\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014whatsoever\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209388763203e45be99f01d28e97d14a4\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Excuse me. Do not bring the Speaker into your debate\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224fb7fb06032473a9fa0cc53b0b601c1\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I didn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c398ac60f350432298aae54ace1c5eb0\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and do not disrespect the Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275ec5053f71a4970ad03dad43a4f0de1\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I didn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f21fc415a09045d1a7fb042290c61a0e\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I will ask the member to withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe79f7cee5404fd5bc2be01cae7610f9\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Do not disrespect me by interrupting me with a point that is not relevant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c8cfd8efe9041449575c3088f441ab5\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The member will resume his seat. Your debate is now interrupted and I will give you the opportunity to stand, withdraw, and apologise for your aspersion on the Chair, and then you can resume your debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0821463873d4c5aac5ac6c3a2edc666\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. This is a Government that has absolutely no moral compass whatsoever\u2014quite content to continue to promote and support an industry that literally kills its consumers. This is a Government that thinks that more people smoking for longer and smoking more is an acceptable way to fund tax cuts. This is a Government that has turned a blind eye to the fact that this bill will cost New Zealanders, the New Zealand health system, $5 billion. They\u2019re willing to pay that price in order to fund the tax cuts that are simply not affordable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EWho will be disproportionately affected by this legislation? We know it will be young New Zealanders, it will be lower-income New Zealanders, and will be M\u0101ori and Pacific New Zealanders. This is overwhelmingly clear from the evidence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EDoesn\u2019t it say everything about this Government, that after disestablishing a programme that was specifically designed to improve M\u0101ori health outcomes, the first thing they do is bring a bill into this House that will make M\u0101ori health outcomes worse? They know it will, because the evidence is there and it is clear\u2014it is clear. The members opposite might be shaking their head about the fact that I\u2019m angry about this. My question again to them is: why the hell aren\u2019t you? Why the hell are you not angry about that, to the members opposite? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThis is a bill that will kill people; it is a bill that will increase smoking in New Zealand. The hollow words that we just got from the Minister sponsoring the bill are nothing more than regurgitated talking points from the tobacco lobby. We have heard it all before from the tobacco lobby, and the Minister promoting this bill simply stood up and read it out on their behalf. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EBut it goes worse than that, because we know that the instructions she gave to the officials that prepared this bill probably came from the tobacco lobby as well. This is a Government that is firmly in the pocket of the tobacco industry, and the Minister presenting this bill is simply doing their bidding, bringing a bill before the House that will do harm to New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EWhat happened to notion of the common good, the public good, being the guiding force behind the decisions that we take in this House? Members opposite might not have agreed with everything to do with Smokefree Aotearoa 2025, although that\u2019s not the position that they had before the election when they were supporting that, but there are other changes they could have made. Why not raise the age to 25, as the Ministry of Health offered as a compromise? Why? Because that wouldn\u2019t meet the needs of the tobacco lobby, who are so firmly behind the actions of this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EThis is a morally reprehensible piece of legislation. It is a stain on this Parliament. Twelve people a day die from smoking-related illness in New Zealand. Let\u2019s put that into context: the equivalent number of all of the members of Parliament in this House die every 10 days from smoking-related illness in New Zealand. This is a stain on this Parliament that we are passing legislation to liberalise the tobacco industry in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003EWe should be driving forward for Smokefree Aotearoa 2025. When the Government get advice to say that these changes will push that out to 2061, it says everything that they choose to ignore that and stick to their tobacco lobby talking points. It is a disgrace on this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022 data-id=\u0022c3d776fae08942429b3102d910416bd5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c3d776fae08942429b3102d910416bd5\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe. This is a landmark moment in the history of New Zealand. This is a landmark moment in New Zealand history, and I reflect on Tariana Turia in 2011, who stood with pride when the National Government brought into place the smoke-free legislation that had set the scene for my daughter and our future generations to live a smoke-free lifestyle. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EBut no, this is landmark for all the wrong reasons. You have blood on your hands for te iwi M\u0101ori: Te Aka Whai Ora and now Smokefree. For the thousands that die every year\u2014you don\u2019t know the pain of burying your dead over and over because of smoking-related diseases. It was the National Government who committed to this path\u2014Smokefree 2025\u2014and yet now we have a Government who\u2019s huri k\u014Daro\u2014in te ao M\u0101ori we call it huri k\u014Daro [you\u2019ve flipped]. You\u2019re a flip-flop. The Government now has chosen to end that pathway for the smoke-free generation. I\u2019m speaking as a m\u0101m\u0101 of a daughter born in 2009, and actually thinking about what she will inherit. She\u2019ll inherit greater access because retailers\u2014like in Kawakawa, we have nine right now in Kawakawa: vape and tobacco stores, across supermarkets, dairies, and the petrol station right now in Kawakawa. Nine outlets; we can have more in Kawakawa now, wh\u0101nau\u2014it\u2019s going to be awesome\u2014but also greater access to product. There\u2019s a plethora of product already out on the market but, through this legislation, this Government is opening up a pathway for more into our communities\u2014vulnerable communities who don\u2019t need more than nine in, what, maybe 300 metres of Kawakawa on State Highway 1. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EBut there is a silver lining, of course, because we\u2019re getting tax cuts for the rich; tax cuts for the rich and to support those of our wh\u0101nau who work in the tobacco industry. So, therefore, this is a very dark day as a m\u0101m\u0101, a mother of the smoke-free generation that will see more deaths from smoking-related illnesses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EThere are gross inequalities in this space. Just because there\u2019s been a drop, it\u2019s still not good enough. Te iwi M\u0101ori make up 17.1 percent of smokers compared to\u2014and let\u2019s look at the gap\u20146.1 percent for non-M\u0101ori. That gap is still a gross inequality that exists. But further, M\u0101ori make up 38 percent of daily smokers. I want to reflect on our matua, our cousin and whanaunga, Anaru Waa, who\u2019s the co-director of Aspire, who shared, \u201CSmoking prevalence among M\u0101ori and Pacific peoples is still far too high. It\u2019s not time to put the handbrake on and let on a bit more tobacco; it\u2019s actually keep moving forward.\u201D But we\u2019re not seeing this because repealing the smoke-free legislation, as Anaru shares, means M\u0101ori will continue to suffer unacceptable levels of harm due to smoked tobacco products for many years to come\u2014many years to come. Goodbye, Smokefree 2025. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EI acknowledge the sector who paved the way in this House, who are watching. Our pioneers, te ao m\u0101rama; those of our health workers who have worked so hard in this space to promote smoke-free environments, smoke-free pubs and clubs, smoke-free parks and playgrounds so that our tamariki will not know what it\u2019s like to wake up smelling like an ashtray after they\u2019ve been out for a night on the town. Because that\u2019s the work: we\u2019ve got to provide the smoke-free environment. We\u2019ve got to actively promote community awareness\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220661e7606a16417fa94d0ec3b54b3c8c\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: We are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022779f65c3a3324cef92f2ff3b470dc830\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON\u003C/span\u003E: No, you\u2019re not. No, you\u2019re not. You\u2019re opening it up for more\u2014more, more, more\u2014and a billion dollars\u2019 worth of tax revenue to give to your rich mates. And, ultimately, for te iwi M\u0101ori, we know we are the most impacted. Why are they doing this? Why? You never campaigned on this. We never knew it was coming. Te iwi M\u0101ori never knew. New Zealand did not know. Don\u2019t say this is something that you had planned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022 data-id=\u00220e997b4d2d5a4b1684a0ccc6a9877b28\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e997b4d2d5a4b1684a0ccc6a9877b28\u0022\u003ELAURA TRASK (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Wow! What an animated display we are seeing over this legislation. Quite quickly we\u2019re talking about lobbying from the tobacco industry, but what about the lobbying from gangs? Because under the legislation, the only people that would be profiting would be the gangs: 8.5 million illegal cigarettes were seized by Customs in 2023. How are you not concerned about a black market?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003EWe need to ensure people who smoke have more choice and more help to quit smoking if they wish to do so. This includes effective stop-smoking services, alternative products such as vaping, and targeted campaigns aimed at quitting smoking. New Zealand already has impressive quit rates. The latest New Zealand Health Survey results show that in 2022-2023, 6.8 percent of adults were daily smokers, down from 8.6 percent the previous year and 16.4 percent the year previous to that. What is in place has been working. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003EWhat I saw the previous Government legislating was yet again another initiative or another piece of legislation that sounded great but would have an adverse effect on all kinds of people. What about our small businesses? Believe it or not, ACT has actually spoken to our retailers in our communities, our local dairies, and many family-run businesses and shops about the difficulties that they are facing. They are constantly being robbed and ram raided. They are at risk of being violently attacked in their own stores. And then the previous Government wanted to push up to 80 percent of them out of business. These local little dairies are sometimes the only shop that people go to in their community. How is that caring about our local communities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003EIt is not the Government\u2019s decision to radically reduce nicotine content in cigarettes so smokers who can least afford it will spend more on their habit and in turn do harm to those around them. It is our job to help people quit smoking and to stop young people from starting smoking and vaping. This is a prohibitive Act and we do not support the previous Government\u2019s legislation. I support this bill and commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022efe66a23c1334690b95833ae2c8ce792\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022efe66a23c1334690b95833ae2c8ce792\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, this debate is interrupted. The House is suspended until 2 p.m. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 12.59 p.m. to 2 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002249936b61bcb24c00ada7f840d4515c7f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002249936b61bcb24c00ada7f840d4515c7f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The House is resumed. We come now to oral questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220ee366f349f5454cbd4497941c4af151\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227089c2d6f2534bd280de4c682319b220\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222b0f9eec17df40ec92347880d1c77893\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022876766b1d520446bb8cf9daf414e6b74\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022876766b1d520446bb8cf9daf414e6b74\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa3e78fd9a0f49c79176cffb5cc986da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa3e78fd9a0f49c79176cffb5cc986da\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, and particularly this Government\u2019s plan to back our police to crack down on the gangs that peddle meth and misery within our communities. We promised New Zealanders that we would address the rampant lawlessness driven by the previous Labour Government\u2019s soft-on-crime approach, and our plan to reduce gangs\u2019 ability to intimidate and to terrorise our communities is just one part of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226273c65d1a8d4c119cb12e7b53c6643d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his promise on bringing back semi-automatic firearms, \u201CThat is not going to happen. Not going to happen.\u201D; if so, why has Radio New Zealand reported that \u201CEverything is on the table\u201D when it comes to changing the current firearms licensing regime?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228e41a42a7f94aea9cbcacad3aefe4d0\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: No papers have been received or decisions made in our Cabinet, but what I can say is that our Government is going to balance safety and compliance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d800ace10742498ab81fa6c425913012\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Will he guarantee that his Government will not bring back military-style semi-automatic weapons?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bdeee0760374bb89f0956672a946653\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: We will not be introducing any firearm types into this country beyond those that are currently available to licensed owners under current laws and regulation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc39cdd7226b408e8613660608049ac6\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Is it the case that the Government has no plan to bring back semi-automatic firearms because there are already approximately 6,000 New Zealanders with a licence to have one and it\u2019s logically very difficult to bring back something that\u2019s already there?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222905666d6994c1f881ed36e813bf7c3\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: That is correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a72bfc0b7a548f2897b796adb71aa39\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Government intending to make any changes to the number of people who can access military-style semi-automatic weapons?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208f8bf52807a4cefb70004b51c50b6fb\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: As that member knows, our coalition agreement states that we will rewrite the Arms Act to provide for greater protection for public safety\u2014greater protection for public safety\u2014and we\u2019re going to simplify the regulatory requirements and ensure very good, smart compliance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272fdcc2bf57c47af8c3bb3bd2ea414cf\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Why won\u2019t he rule out liberalising access to military-style semi-automatic weapons when the police have made it very clear to the Government, both present and former, that doing so would result in more of those weapons getting into the hands of gang members and others who intend to break the law?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022256f13ad387e4157b6682420f03a136b\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Because no papers have been received, no discussion has been had, and no decisions have been made in Cabinet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223936491b7799488ea1769d43f985890a\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Is he intending to visit the Linwood mosque on 15 March; if so, will he tell the victims of that massacre that he is intending to change the law to make legal the purchase of those types of firearms again, given that the firearm used in that terrorist attack was legally purchased?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022524999384d904bb08ef94f4848390046\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: No disrespect, but I won\u2019t take any lectures from that member about that event. I was an employer of someone who lost an employee in that event, and I take that very seriously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c36bf5f96a2e4d5bb82d6c660978eb9e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I asked him a series of questions about whether he was going to visit the mosque and whether he was going to tell the victims of that event that the Government was considering bringing back the very firearms that were used in that particular atrocity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ceca2271de834f0e9de3902731641877\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the problem with the question\u2014particularly the second part of the question\u2014is that it\u2019s relying on an assumption that the member is making when, in fact, the House has just been told there are no proposals before the Government at the present time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297a9d4fda31b40059f35f10ea0b290d6\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Why will he not rule out liberalising access to military-style semi-automatic weapons?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022010f133094eb43cc986cd445d141c5f3\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve said to the member there are no papers that have been received, there\u2019s been no discussion that\u2019s taken place, there have been no decisions that have been made in Cabinet. The second thing I\u2019ve said is that we are a Government that\u2019s going to balance safe\u2014[Interruption] Would you like to listen to the answer? We\u2019re going to balance safety, we\u2019re going to balance compliance, and we\u2019re going to make sure we have a good decision in Cabinet, and that\u2019s yet to happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280735f98652a4614a4dacd1e4918fccf\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister intend to ban coming to this House promising a bazooka but turning up with a pop gun?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf2e286507d24491944c8f9f1deb76d9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Look, I\u2019m sorry. I know that was that was by way of a question, but it wasn\u2019t a question that the Prime Minister can offer a view on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce4dfb271ee64c59bca51fd663626902\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, he can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220330f076b35643bba7988738c5538efe\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, really? I mean, it\u2019s a very serious issue, and there was kind of a trivial aspect to the question. So I think I\u2019m going to rule it out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c6b1b4a26a64cabbce6d0fc12de13bf\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister aware that in the year to December 2023, gang members carried out an average of 2.83 firearm offences per day, and does the Government have policies to deal to the illegal use of firearms that has mushroomed over the last few years under current laws?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ec94232509a48e180e45bacb36b820b\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I agree. That\u2019s what we won\u2019t be doing: we won\u2019t be making illegal guns available to criminals to actually drive violent crime in this country, because we\u2019re going to get tough on illegal guns\u2014period. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3fdebc04f004ce18458fbe1c5452ee4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: All good, calm down. Thank you very much for your offering, front-bench members from the Opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022227b8909ba5b439c9d3e82496a6f3518\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Justice (Firearms)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022 data-id=\u0022ddf0f06fd53149349f732191930a155c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ddf0f06fd53149349f732191930a155c\u0022\u003EMARK CAMERON (ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Justice (Firearms): What law changes is the Government proposing in relation to firearms?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022 data-id=\u00227387ab3e17354b3b805a07a38dc0d85d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227387ab3e17354b3b805a07a38dc0d85d\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice (Firearms)):\u003C/span\u003E This Government is committed to rewriting the Arms Act 1983. Rushed law changes by the previous Government have failed to make New Zealanders safer from firearms violence and have unfairly punished law-abiding licensed firearm owners. This Government is committed to creating an enduring Arms Act which increases public safety, simplifies regulatory requirements, and improves compliance. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b87b51cd261d42dcbd760a41851641f7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just a moment\u2014just a moment. The noise is too much. It\u2019s a very serious topic, and it should not be a topic that ends up with a Minister shouted down. Questions can be asked in silence\u2014that\u2019s the respect that the House shows to the questioner\u2014but there should be a little bit more attention paid by way of simply listening to the answers being given by Ministers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d30e3a16ed404636ace9d11e0ec86760\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Thank you. I\u2019ve got two points of order, then, Mr Speaker. The first one was just around rulings about patsy questions being used to attack the Opposition, which was contained in the answer that the Minister gave in her primary response, and I just wanted to get your view on that. And the second one was just to kind of clarify what happens when a Government Minister is making policy statements on behalf of the Government when the Prime Minister has just said that there have been no papers received or discussions had.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa4132ce6b7e4aaca0744715fc8cd464\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, on the first point, I couldn\u2019t hear what was being said because of the noise to my left. On the second point, a Minister\u2019s answers are for the House to make a determination about, not for the Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220527b5fc32524d868ef9d9c80881baac\u0022\u003EMark Cameron\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9b016ad08a14601bff27b13f079d695\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Cameron Luxton.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022963ff52bb50447baa24e10da58a41ecc\u0022\u003EMark Cameron\u003C/span\u003E: Mark Cameron\u2014but thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b91a3f47205f4d05b307a778c7bd3be6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Mark Cameron.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae30c975316f4a4889b86cb4914957b7\u0022\u003EMark Cameron\u003C/span\u003E: Easy mistake to make!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c29d6c6cb178427194da88e80bdd7a10\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: My sincere apologies, Mark Cameron.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ababcf0969d4e71b6107b28b88c6c52\u0022\u003EMark Cameron\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. What immediate changes is the Government proposing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f90b52fbd5664b6697bd55f670c90d77\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: The previous Government\u2019s over-regulation on clubs and ranges have forced several to shut down. It is imperative for New Zealanders to have access to secure venues for firearms usage. The absence of such facilities poses additional risks to the community. Therefore, we are dedicated to overturning these unnecessary regulations to ensure the safety and the availability of these important spaces.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fc17bde321b46bd9e592c9bb360faf5\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Has she received or requested any advice on increasing access to military-style semi-automatic weapons?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4231162d15145798e5e1b55654621de\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2a2c5f27e004ac18fd0724a702451eb\u0022\u003EMark Cameron\u003C/span\u003E: Which firearm laws is the Government going to review?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efb9f9f446f743a29a2212fecc32a9c0\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: The Government will review the effectiveness of the firearms registry in enhancing public safety. Concerns raised by licensed firearm owners regarding privacy breaches and unjustifiable costs warrant a thorough evaluation. The review will commence no later than June 2024.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274f5eb2817204a16a9d1086a8949fd8d\u0022\u003EMark Cameron\u003C/span\u003E: What steps is the Government taking to target gang members holding firearms illegally?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270ddeea485154399a800c082bf45061b\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: This Government is committed to giving police greater powers to search gang members for illegally held firearms. This legislation will be introduced to Parliament within the first 100 days of Government, as outlined in the National-ACT coalition agreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250a7425dd2c34eafa5a842888421d961\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Just in relation to that answer and the one to the question before that, that does appear to contradict what the Prime Minister just said about no decisions having been made or any papers or discussions being read. And I just wondered if the Prime Minister might need to correct his answer to the earlier question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd3b10c942bb42fbba03455c964000f5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, with all due respect, that is not a point of order. That is a point that you are making. You\u2019ve made the point. There\u2019s nothing further to be done about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022489d736b-2629-4bc7-8d38-6319c7797a33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c1a5cb4b3b046188a6fabcc642ba2c9\u0022\u003EMark Cameron\u003C/span\u003E: Will her Government allow competitive shooters to use semi-automatics for sporting purposes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241b7376ec6be43179f36f456507c9620\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: The coalition Government has yet to decide on this issue, but, currently, over 6,600 New Zealanders are licensed to possess semi-automatic firearms, and this occurred under Labour\u2019s regime. They were never banned under the previous Government. This Government is the adult in the room, and we are committed to finding a solution to this issue for the benefit of public safety and practical regulation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002257c734ee7f89478b90b43530538a919f\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u00220e153daac61f43b68236e0e470f64b19\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e153daac61f43b68236e0e470f64b19\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all of his statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u00222814c04bc5e14ad087d798d8d3aa2f87\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222814c04bc5e14ad087d798d8d3aa2f87\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, and in the context they were given.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5daadd33a8a4cbabf4b23f1dd1dcbfd\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement that \u201Cour focus is on making sure \u2026 we honour the Treaty.\u201D, and, if so, will he ensure that the new fast-track consenting legislation will uphold the Treaty?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d10e452c288841a59d9f1ff6085a2a95\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I will.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b76b6e8184c440078b6538cdb353c23e\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Has he been briefed on feedback from mana whenua, as Treaty partners, on the proposed policy settings for the fast-track legislation, and, if so, what was the feedback?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221dda16347c5242e0adbafb286de95edd\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I understand that the Ministers have. If he would like to direct any questions to the relevant Minister, he\u2019s more than welcome to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253e24676243c40a6a39d41b049d04d7f\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Will the fast-track process give effect to the rights of iwi and hap\u016B over natural resources, as recognised in Treaty settlements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227aaad85eebd94b7aae5918f0f1f6739e\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d420a41e32b34e5fb29e7d2cfaef3100\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Will the fast-track framework protect matters of national importance under the Resource Management Act by ensuring that projects will be declined if they undermine the relationship of M\u0101ori and their culture and traditions with their ancestral lands, water sites, w\u0101hi tapu, and other taonga?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0c082ce6aae4654b5fd9b7e04fbb864\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Again, we haven\u2019t yet had a Cabinet paper or discussion about that in Cabinet yet, but we will shortly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b36219d205ee4ceea6e8fd895c566743\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Will he rule out the proposal by Trans-Tasman Resources for seabed mining off the coast of Taranaki from the list of projects in the bill, in light of the Supreme Court ruling that this application needed to be reconsidered to take account of tikanga M\u0101ori?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bcd14dd8a2240e3842e6e3d25f4e903\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: As I said, there has been no paper presented to Cabinet, there has been no discussion at Cabinet, and there\u2019s been no decisions made at Cabinet. That is yet to come.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227f74b39adab14b38bb451c63c1dc586f\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022 data-id=\u0022a95a3f405d0c460ab3a88d30858b2acb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a95a3f405d0c460ab3a88d30858b2acb\u0022\u003ERIMA NAKHLE (National\u2014Takanini)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What recent reports has she seen on the New Zealand economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022f967585c707042af9d062547cc38680c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f967585c707042af9d062547cc38680c\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Yesterday, the New Zealand Institute of Economic Research (NZIER) issued its latest quarterly predictions. The report says that recent developments have been mixed, but generally point to further easing of inflation pressures in the New Zealand economy. The easing in capacity pressures has been a key driver behind this drop in inflation pressures in the New Zealand economy; in particular, firms report a further easing in labour shortages and are now finding it easier to find both skilled and unskilled labour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022625a8980dc084a798287eaf90069d3c8\u0022\u003ERima Nakhle\u003C/span\u003E: What does this outlook mean for monetary policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f2fcc62486146eaa80a69b0eb7bb85e\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The NZIER report goes on to say that the key question for the Reserve Bank of New Zealand (RBNZ) is whether it is comfortable that this easing in inflation is occurring at a fast enough pace to get annual Consumers Price Index inflation back to within its 1 to 3 percent inflation target band. The RBNZ\u2019s monetary policy statement came out at 2 p.m. and I\u2019ve been advised that the official cash rate has been held steady. This indicates that the bank does think inflation is reducing at a fast enough pace.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255b335bf58884f43b70e125c247b47f2\u0022\u003ERima Nakhle\u003C/span\u003E: What does the NZIER say about the outlook for economic growth?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a712ca179ead438887ffcabbe0cae3a8\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f86a69ecbd3415da1b812950f4d1196\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s better now that Grant\u2019s gone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227053dce49ff4488ab405fbb7e37fc5ba\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right. The Deputy Prime Minister makes a very good point. Like other forecasters, the NZIER is expecting near-term weakness in the economy but recovery over the longer term. The NZIER also highlights an increase in business confidence. It says that despite signs of weaker demand as the impact of higher interest rates left over from the last lot continues to gain traction, businesses are feeling less pessimistic about the general economic outlook.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287c74936f6d540ba90cc9758c5a1b82c\u0022\u003ERima Nakhle\u003C/span\u003E: When will the next Treasury forecast be released?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe5a82b71abe422595399b23f2859dc7\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The next complete set of Treasury economic and fiscal forecasts will be released with the Budget on 30 May. Data revisions and recent out-turns since the half-year update in December indicate that the economy is likely to be in a weaker position this year than was anticipated before Christmas. That will flow through to forecasts for tax revenue, so I expect the Crown to be collecting less revenue over the next few years than was previously expected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220efaf6266a784701a08707947541d3f4\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc7cf36e401541288e41956aeab3713d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc7cf36e401541288e41956aeab3713d\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What advice from Treasury, if any, has she seen on the amount of revenue that will be gained by the Government from the enactment of the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Amendment Bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u00229cd2ada8bd254847a790aca9ddc99b0d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229cd2ada8bd254847a790aca9ddc99b0d\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I am advised that regardless of the enactment of the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Amendment Bill, excise revenue is predicted to continue to gradually decline as smoking rates continue to decrease. In preparing the Half Year Economic and Fiscal Update last year, Treasury did a rough estimate of tobacco excise revenue assuming the continuation of the current smoke-free regime that has existed and been successful for many years. Their estimate was that maintaining the current smoke-free regime involving regular increases in tobacco excise and which has seen smoking rates fall dramatically, would result in additional revenue of around $1.5 billion in total across the four-year forecast period compared to the changes due to be implemented from later this year. I\u2019d say two things to the member: first, those numbers are very rough, and better forecasts will be included in the Government\u2019s books as part of the Budget update; and, second, that revenue, whatever it turns out to be, will go into the consolidated account and be used for spending on hip operations, teachers\u2019 pay, and Working for Families, just as that revenue was used by the previous Labour Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c16f089d1ecb4b0b9d0ba8cdb021cf09\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with the statement made by Nicola Willis, \u201Cwe have to remember that the changes to the smoke-free legislation had a significant impact on the Government books,\u201D in response to questions on how she will pay for tax cuts in the absence of the foreign buyers ban; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e79ba2e5423d498ea69b5bdd447cfe91\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: I tend to agree with myself, yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f8191ea14e44301b7f4573f0a696714\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Is she aware that the Ministry of Health modelling shows that an estimated $5.25 billion can be saved in health spending, and, if so, how can she justify her support for rolling back world-leading smoke-free legislation when a simple cost-benefit analysis shows the cost to the health system outweighs the benefits of the revenue gained?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235460454d0694eafa2900419b138104d\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The Government is sticking with legislation and initiatives that, with bipartisan support, have seen smoking rates drop by 60 percent in the past 11 years, and we are advised those settings will continue to drive smoking rates down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d61a1f2a2cf24d98b15b1eb587f7413d\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: How can she reconcile the Government saying, on one hand, \u201CIt is our intention to bring smoking rates down.\u201D, but, on the other hand, she needs smoking rates to stay the same or increase to bring in $500 million in tobacco excise per year to help pay for tax cuts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0c10d0950394178b7e9a62cce871cec\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Because the member has got it completely wrong. We are expecting that excise\u2014[Interruption] Well, the member either wants an answer or she doesn\u2019t. We are expecting that excise revenue will continue to gradually decline as smoking rates decrease. And I have been specifically advised that there will still be a declining trend, and with the assumed decline in tobacco consumption more than offsetting the continued increases in excise revenue that we do on 1 January each year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022799a9238cb524dd1a491a21ffb703da9\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: What is the priority for this Government: tax cuts funded by more New Zealanders smoking for longer or the health and lives of everyday New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222677a4b9eff143aaa539c88eac7868fe\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The priority for this Government\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022728e2847792147bdbb74866154addb63\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just a moment. That question is not in order. I\u2019m not going to rule it out; the Minister can answer, but you need to think about how much assumption is put into questions that Ministers are required to respond to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022104267e88bfc4ecc89d337e3c0268a79\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, I\u2019m very happy to talk about the Government\u2019s priorities, which are to strengthen the economy so that we can address the cost of living, which has been at a crisis for the past two years; increase the jobs and incomes available to New Zealanders; ensure they can keep more of their own money; deliver better front-line services in health and education, where attendance rates have plummeted; and increase law and order by delivering more police.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022133fa97b35134ebe8f8dc6c15f49aeb0\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister of Finance aware of reports attributed to Victorian police in Melbourne that last year 27 convenience stores were attacked with firebombings as part of stand-over tactics believed to be connected with the illicit tobacco trade, and if she has considered the impacts of illicit tobacco on both health and the Government\u2019s books, does she believe that it\u2019s actually time to bring a bit of reality into this debate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223aa18013e58c439295568203f1e4d404\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That was also another interesting question that goes well beyond the responsibilities of the Minister. I know you couch it with \u201Chas she considered\u201D and, therefore, it can go ahead, but I think you\u2019ve got to be careful about how much assumption we put into questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eab3bbe309454b67918852651d4a359c\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I seek leave to table a Treasury Official Information Act request that documents the forecasting in relation to tobacco excise due to the changes in legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7ce7cf1add64718b736c7f24132d567\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Are you tabling a request or a response?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296002b52d48f4498ae04982387b5b5ae\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m tabling the response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229027517c8ba2452d90731d411cec31b2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is it publicly available?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299bbd1c011464db5a764345429b537ec\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Not that I\u2019m aware of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022578c45f80cb64dcdaf0fadacb33c3807\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, OK. Leave is sought. Is there any objection?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ee2a8d3a8364e42a700a0eb88ecb1fa\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Is it publicly available?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234309f9b873e4118aeccb95ab30cf0e5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, is it? I\u2019m asking the question. [Interruption] Hang on, I\u2019ll deal with this. I\u2019m asking the member: is it a publicly available document?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f82298c45de463aaa8de07482200d58\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Not that I\u2019m aware of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b91ae15f0e7421cb239fff331589340\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll put the leave. Leave is sought. Is there any objection? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f86bc5018e4409b96f5789bedaf3bd4\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Can I ask the Minister whether or not it\u2019s a fact that the success of the present Government\u2019s plan is in the forecasts of the tax for tobacco and cigarettes being hundreds of millions of dollars less than Grant Robertson was forecasting in 2020?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202f88357e1e24ae292ed11ff26748a0a\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, look, the Deputy Prime Minister makes a good point, as did David Seymour before him, so I\u2019m going to address both questions in one. I think that\u2019s a good way to do things. We do have to be very conscious of the black market, because what the regulatory impact statement\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217214523adb54fd7b0dd44dd9d8759cc\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I just wanted to refer back to earlier Speakers\u2019 rulings around the use of patsy questions to attack the Opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022895fecd9739c44748c198c14dda4c3cf\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: With regards to what?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b468221e7a6442709dd4346bb3186302\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: The question that the Deputy Prime Minister asked then was\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022418ab4b0cbbc438e805d2686bc350596\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, sorry; it can\u2019t be a patsy if he\u2019s referring to Budget numbers. That\u2019s not an unreasonable question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f63a0dda7cd8424980bbd0395d8d4ac3\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019ll withdraw the use of the word \u201Cpatsy\u201D. Nevertheless, the supplementary question that the Deputy Prime Minister asked was clearly an attack on the Opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc4872dfebb542b08121e5e6ebc9981e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m sorry; I didn\u2019t see it that way. So we\u2019ll finish that answer and then I\u2019ll have to go back to David Seymour because I managed to cut him off getting an answer. So he\u2019ll probably have to ask his question again, in a better way, I hope. [Interruption] No, no\u2014hang on. We\u2019re not finished here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a1835c24d064e048e6a62e19999a551\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, perhaps I can help the House by addressing two questions in one. Minister Seymour\u2019s question was about the black market, and this is a very real concern because the regulatory impact statement for the previous Government\u2019s legislation warned specifically that\u2014quote\u2014\u201CThe illicit market has been increasing, and recommended policy changes are likely to exacerbate this.\u201D I would point out that the only people that benefit from a flourishing black market are criminals and gangs. In answer to the Deputy Prime Minister\u2019s supplementary question, he makes a good point, which is that the revenue that the coalition Government is likely to receive from tobacco revenue in the forecast future years will be considerably less than was received by the previous Labour administration in 2020, where they earned $2.2 billion in tobacco excise revenue, which they happily invested in roads, hospitals, schools, and the like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af61adc0e5f445d4bd8537c21e15183b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I\u2019m sure that satisfies you, Hon Seymour; it certainly satisfies me, which is all that matters. Can we now move to question No. 6\u2014the Hon\u2014sorry, Miles Anderson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022337b4492244245aa8dda6af34bb9d926\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Housing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022 data-id=\u0022bfd5272e133f4dc7a430f26f0d06e162\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bfd5272e133f4dc7a430f26f0d06e162\u0022\u003EMILES ANDERSON (National\u2014Waitaki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Housing: Thank you, Mr Speaker, for the elevation in position. What announcements has he made about the Government\u2019s work programme in housing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022333394c71aa74beeb95ae1b2ab195e5c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022333394c71aa74beeb95ae1b2ab195e5c\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E Yesterday, I laid out the Government\u2019s work programme to fix New Zealand\u2019s housing crisis. Five interlocking actions: firstly, going for housing growth, to smash urban limits holding our cities back, fix infrastructure funding and financing, and introduce incentives to encourage cities and regions to go for growth; secondly, improvements to the rental market to make it easier to be a landlord and easier to be a tenant; thirdly, building and construction changes to improve competition, lower building costs; better social housing to look after those who most need support; and, fifthly, reform of the Resource Management Act 1991 (RMA).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251ac8689149f448b846647e7ce6ada53\u0022\u003EMiles Anderson\u003C/span\u003E: How will this agenda to fix the housing crisis improve the lives of New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eba107acea6f457fa47ff137a2b24cf6\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the housing crisis that New Zealand has inherited from the last Government affects almost every aspect of New Zealand society. Young people don\u2019t have the opportunities to own their own homes in the way that generations before them have had, and, of course, the housing market consigns thousands of our fellow New Zealanders to live in motels for months at a time. Our agenda charts a realistic and achievable path out of this mess, and tackling our housing crisis once and for all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8dbd81fc2254a20a83209df775f4102\u0022\u003EMiles Anderson\u003C/span\u003E: How will this agenda to fix the housing crisis improve the New Zealand economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5f66a7fcc044909ac76364d8899b339\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, one of the best things we can do to improve the New Zealand economy is to fix our housing crisis. For years, New Zealand has suffered from a productivity disease. In the 1950s, our GDP per capita was 125 percent of the OECD average, and it is now below the OECD average. Fixing this can be done through effective and efficient urban development, because cities are engines of productivity, and when we stop people building houses, we lock people out of cities, and that makes us all poorer. So we are going to allow our cities to grow up and out, and we\u2019re going to let people build more houses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022376297f0a1644c068d07bff9e3e47bc1\u0022\u003EMiles Anderson\u003C/span\u003E: What do his announcements yesterday mean for the local councils and the medium-density residential standards (MDRS)?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ea6557d99b1413095983c8b3ee17edf\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: The first element of our package will require councils to zone enough land for 30 years of housing growth. We also heard the message from many New Zealanders and many communities that the MDRS standards were too blunt and one-size-fits-all, so as part of that, we are going to give communities and councils flexibility to opt out of the MDRS, striking the right balance between zoning for growth and the flexibility to decide where that growth happens. I also announced yesterday that in my role as Minister responsible for RMA Reform, I will be the decision maker on relevant district plan changes relating to housing, where the councils and the independent hearing panels do not agree, for example, in Wellington.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002278d9172a084b4f87abd4a9eb570b0f19\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Housing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u0022d04824cabccc42919995fb8cc123ecc9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d04824cabccc42919995fb8cc123ecc9\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Housing: Does he stand by his statement that \u201CThe evidence is as plain as day: cities that make it difficult to build more housing have housing affordability problems\u201D; if so, what advice, if any, has he seen on the impact on affordability of allowing councils to opt out of medium-density residential standards?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2427b7472e54900975b092c5c381357\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2427b7472e54900975b092c5c381357\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E To the first part of the question, yes; to the second part of the question, I\u2019ve seen a range of advice on our Going for Housing Growth policy, which, as I\u2019ve just mentioned, includes making the medium density-residential standards (MDRS) optional, while also requiring them to zone for 30 years of housing growth. Our position is that the current rules are too blunt, too one-size-fits-all. We\u2019ve heard the concerns from communities up and down the country, and we believe that our new approach strikes the right balance between zoning for lots of growth and flexibility. I\u2019m still in the process of receiving advice on the design of how we make the MDRS optional; it is legally complex, as there are various councils in different stages of their plan changes. I haven\u2019t received specific advice on affordability to deal with her specific question, but I\u2019ve been clear that councils won\u2019t be able to opt out of the MDRS rules until we\u2019re satisfied they are releasing sufficient alternative development capacity to improve affordability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2c501257d604ef7b73345de5bc0ae09\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: Has he seen\u2014and if he has seen it, does he accept\u2014the Sense Partners analysis of the medium-density residential standards that showed the infrastructure costs of a house in a new greenfields area on the fringe of the city is nearly double that of an additional home within the existing urban area?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1cbcb18544944789d04d736bada1fe9\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve read the report. Yes, I accept that advice. That is why, as a part of our reforms, we are saying that greenfields growth will have to be paid for by that growth. So the infrastructure cost for that growth will have to be paid for as part of that growth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de99a8f15c0d47d7a585c098adfe14ae\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: So does he acknowledge, in light of that answer, that making medium-density residential standards optional, all else being equal, will lead to less potential housing in the existing urban area, precisely where it is most needed and where infrastructure costs are lower?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c9e58d8bdbf4959b0d44827364be989\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: That would be true if all else was being equal. The point is: it\u2019s not. We\u2019re making the MDRS optional at the same time as requiring councils to zone it for enough development capacity. The member needs to look at the policy in the round, not a particular one element or component of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022315478d28b4e4780befe9774d55046e3\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: How does he reconcile his plan to \u201Clegalise housing\u201D while removing the very mechanism that was cutting council red tape and making it easier to build more housing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc175c8e14a24d27b32381fced96eb6a\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Because we\u2019re being much more ambitious than the MDRS. In fact, if I could point to one example put forward by New Zealand First as a part of the coalition agreement, which makes its way in, which is to make it essentially legal, without a building consent or a resource consent, for granny flats of up to 60 square metres on a property, which I think will have a massive impact. We\u2019re also proposing strengthening the National Policy Statement on Urban Development so that mixed-use zoning is much more encouraged in our cities, and, of course, the much more ambitious target of smashing urban limits, which, as the member\u2019s former colleague in the transport space the Hon Phil Twyford once said back in 2017 and early 2018\u2014which the last Labour Government was going to do in relation to Auckland\u2014there\u2019d be no metropolitan urban limit under the Jacinda Ardern Labour - led Government. Six years on, we\u2019re still waiting for it; the National-led coalition will deliver that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281f7e1296b204c48a99ec23002154aa4\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: Does he accept the evidence that people who live on the fringe of urban areas have much higher transport costs, and, accepting that, will he include transport and affordability costs as a percentage of income as a measure and a target for affordability?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a07b23758a34bcabdcfe8f218222aad\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it depends on the transport choices that people make. But I\u2019m not sure what the member is so worked up about, because the front page of The Post this morning I was very intrigued to see. Here\u2019s what it says: \u201CLabour, Green councillors pleased that Chris Bishop will decide on housing plan\u201D. So I\u2019m not sure what the members of the Opposition are so worked up about, because it sounds like the Green councillors from Wellington are pretty happy that I\u2019m in charge now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b7c1ace657d4b2f8e0b25bc7f7e4e58\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I really appreciated that\u2014[Interruption]\u2014and you know, I think it\u2019s great that the Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0754ec369ba49488f1e331e216be3c9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, sorry\u2014start that again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d87ae8b36674a39a1d2c036db261cdb\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I appreciate the answer. However, I did ask a very specific, technical question, and I would love it if the Minister would address that part of the question, because the question was very specific about whether a measure of a housing affordability would include transport costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd6291ccd0bb457ebefa3f25f08090bf\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m happy to answer it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da4f572e4097422baee79ffb0040f0e3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, well, I\u2019m pleased you\u2019re happy to answer; it\u2019s your job. Carry on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222dfcb268342d4900acc56851392bf894\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Indeed. I mean, I broadly accept that analysis, except it depends on the choices that people make. Yes, of course\u2014[Interruption] You guys all right? I\u2019m just waiting for you to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022044968397f274e66be1eba7dcfd06185\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Hey, that is enough\u2014that is enough. I know this is the problem with having a third week of a four-week session in urgency; enormous pent-up excitement. Let\u2019s just hear\u2014[Interruption] Sorry, we\u2019re going to hear\u2014Ms Genter, we\u2019re going to hear the answer in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227454541401e74215a8d6667d936178b5\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m happy to answer; I was just waiting for a bit of quiet. I broadly accept that. Of course it is true that people who live an hour outside the CBD probably, depending on the choices they make, pay more for transport, but the point is, over on this side of the House we believe in choice. Some people will choose to live in the suburbs, some people will choose to live in a granny flat, some people will choose to live in an apartment. Actually, what we need is housing choice, and, more importantly, we need urban land settings that facilitate those choices.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228af6918f18cf40979aad124cf5089777\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Just to get this straight from the Minister, is he saying that under this new change, a 60 square metre flat or building can be erected with just an engineer\u2019s report\u2014or, in other words, a koro\u2019s flat for Willie?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022859d342644784b24a9a96770b4f1d32f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, don\u2019t answer that question. We\u2019ve got to stop this sort of clever technique of asking these questions that clearly indicate a very generous attitude towards the person you were talking about, but that\u2019s a private arrangement you can make with him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f9c5c00f2c14e0da27c28a3233c0bbe\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: No, Mr Speaker, point of order. What\u2019s gone wrong with this place? All I\u2019m trying to illustrate is that some people in this House might be seriously keen to hear that answer, some with greater acuity than others. I was being kind when I said that, and now you\u2019re turning it into some sort of dig that I meant to be offensive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5374149931b4117af76862fc04ddeae\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, but when I\u2019ve ruled on something, you can\u2019t have a point of order on a ruling. You know the rules of the House; you\u2019ve been here so long you wrote half of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225126b0f189e44b04ba1514ef63ca16d9\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef7ce96fda4647d0b44c57486516b1fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef7ce96fda4647d0b44c57486516b1fb\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Health: Does she stand by all her statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u00225a67e302a55749acbbaf44d0b565f8cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a67e302a55749acbbaf44d0b565f8cb\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220168323217fa4c7bb3503ef7533ae7e7\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Was she being truthful when she said, \u201CI haven\u2019t looked at a freeze on excise at all.\u201D in an interview with Guyon Espiner?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d990be3f8c042f78c79a99dcf58bedc\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: In the context of the interview that was conducted, the answer I gave to the question that was put within the 25-minute interview was accurate in the response and framework that question was put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295cee7017503419fb135a26e5ff16be5\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Has she solved the mystery of who wrote the document that contained proposals to freeze tobacco excise tax in the three weeks since she told Mike Hosking that she was not sure who put it on her desk?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226774c157c3542749993c3e2b8376082\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not a mystery. That same document also referred to a key bullet point, which was how to destroy the tobacco industry, which was one of the many discussion points that was collated from a range of campaign positioning and statements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb545edb4145401fab6a194997540217\u0022\u003EAndy Foster\u003C/span\u003E: Has she received reports on the number of people who have stopped smoking?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bb5b35f40a746d79e9d789f4eafd0e9\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I have received a range of reports, specifically at the current level of smokers being at 6.8 percent. Importantly, that data also noted that the smoke-free legislation that the previous Government based their positioning on was 2019-2020 data, and since that data on which they based their legislation, 305,000 people have quit smoking, and youth smoking fell from 10.3 percent to 3 percent, proving the existing legislation was highly effective.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d256d0c9d2af4702b82f8e42b320fe37\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Why has she refused requests to release the document under the Official Information Act if it is merely, as she has said in this House, a range of historical policy positions and notes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec5b3133f2da476da59cc9f37ce8cd10\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: The documentation is part of the discussion documents relating to this legislation being developed, and therefore it is under that position that it\u2019s being withheld.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d015736d3f64d93a812f11219c17d1b\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: With respect to the mystery of who wrote the document that appeared on her desk, has she considered calling in a former detective to investigate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238191ebc27854621a12d917817592e84\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abdc365620d74ab1ba5a189d288810f6\u0022\u003EAndy Foster\u003C/span\u003E: Can she tell the House what practical tools and approaches have worked to date?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fceb6ab280a34625942ea869d74e612e\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: Vaping as a cessation tool has worked successfully, and I would like to recognise that the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products (Vaping) Amendment Bill 2020, introduced by New Zealand First, which regulated vaping, has been a monumental factor in the smoking reduction rates we are seeing today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d40fea5611748748fb298e968dcbf0a\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Is she still actively considering freezes to tobacco excise tax, and, if so, has she been honest in all her statements to the Prime Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220485b0c498f0466db5f9c24becf588c0\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: I have been very clear on the fact that I am not currently considering an increase in excise tax. The first thing I did as a Minister was raise the excise tax in a Cabinet paper that I submitted in November 2023 and came into effect on 1 January 2024.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228970fb67381342c395fa48be6aab2da5\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. The member answered with respect to an\u2014that she said she is not considering an increase in excise tax. The question was about a freeze to excise tax, which is what the member proposed to officials in the document she sent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3aac3febc1c4502b2214b7896a487f2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I mean, she also said that the first action she took as a Minister was to increase tax, which doesn\u2019t exactly imply a freeze.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6460ecda4614f389c5e5629d3e32d86\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. In an earlier answer from the Minister, she quoted from the document by saying there was a section headed \u201Cdestroying the tobacco industry\u201D. That\u2019s a direct quote and I would request that the Minister table the document.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a33471ce1c7a4dc88f8c3c01c69ee4d5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Was that a direct quote? Is it a document that you have in the House with you at the moment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff7d01b5545746c496d5706f1ab0a631\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: No, it\u2019s not a direct quote, and it\u2019s not with me in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c0c530bd96634f3caca298aebd6930c1\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Justice\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022 data-id=\u0022a053a25d92704b5cb954b4268da8bceb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a053a25d92704b5cb954b4268da8bceb\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: Does he stand by all of his statements and policies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022685c7c4637064798b075a94ae11c5f42\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022685c7c4637064798b075a94ae11c5f42\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, in the context in which they were made, particularly my statement on Sunday that for too long, gangs have been allowed to behave as if they are above the law. They are not, and this Government is determined to restore law and order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aec37679f3bd4b17a3224f0cdb6e2637\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: What evidence and research does the Minister have that shows banning gang patches will reduce crime in our communities? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f6457b09443440a9d9b9908adc4abd7\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, look, the evidence that I\u2019m most interested in is the 50 percent increase in gang membership in the last five years under the previous Government, which has led to a sense of disorder on our streets. That\u2019s the evidence I\u2019m most interested in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ead23396233d427ca5767b225f91d76f\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. The question was clear: what evidence and research does the Minister have that shows banning gang patches will reduce crime in our communities? He didn\u2019t address it, nor did he answer it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288d28dffad834f6aab710c8b56c1d774\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I think you could probably have another crack at that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f6537b808fe408482e45eafe7ec07c4\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the evidence I see and that we\u2019ve received is the intimidation that people have seen right across the country, and we\u2019ve also seen the progress that similar gang patch bans have had in Western Australia and in other countries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022746d414dfb7243ac8e423936204881ea\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. Once again, he has evaded answering the question. The question is simple: what evidence and research does the Minister have that shows banning gang patches will reduce crime in our communities? He hasn\u2019t addressed it, nor answered it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228df891f899d840439de3676e36b7321c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: He actually did answer, because he also referred to evidence he had from Western Australia. Now, he doesn\u2019t have to expand on what that is, but that\u2019s what he said in his answer. He also\u2014[Interruption] Well, you can all wobble your heads as much as you like. This is how I heard it and this is how I\u2019m ruling it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5fceddf5a6341269ab36f76f9451b5c\u0022\u003ET\u0101kuta Ferris\u003C/span\u003E: Look, given this Government seems fixated on gangs with high M\u0101ori membership, will his proposed legislation to ban gang members from gathering mean their wh\u0101nau who have multiple members accused of being in a gang will not be able to meet or even talk to each other for up to three years? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7001cd97e024f38a34b2a9d1333e25e\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: There will be an exclusion for family members. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223458b5558a034b678bfed81fc9ff4ccd\u0022\u003ET\u0101kuta Ferris\u003C/span\u003E: How can he justify targeting gang members when the tribunal has found that 80 to 90 percent of Mongrel Mob and Black Power members have come from State wards, and, therefore, both gangs are largely a creation of the State? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab2d9c4040a441edb9a59c0d87b50fc0\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: We absolutely agree that the background of offenders is relevant to sentencing. But also we are a party that believes in personal responsibility, and I should note that the Long-term Insights Briefing on imprisonment states that \u201CMost people serving sentences in prison [in New Zealand] have been convicted of serious sexual or violent offending.\u201D, and no society can function if people are not held personally responsible for their actions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225997b92d7a8d4d708d59b372cb25f8bf\u0022\u003ET\u0101kuta Ferris\u003C/span\u003E: Does he deem it appropriate for a Minister of Justice to say he does not care about the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222381e43c32c04904b2d0089d90f56d4c\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I never made such a statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b168a1654d6458ca980baaf579ab9d1\u0022\u003ET\u0101kuta Ferris\u003C/span\u003E: Are you sure? Supplementary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b593519073884560803442db9890885c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Hang on, hang on. Was that a question or was that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc0a6a1c537d4b35983b7ca12e4afcf4\u0022\u003ET\u0101kuta Ferris\u003C/span\u003E: Nah, nah, nah; I just said something out loud.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282305d62881f4729bb39d5a23d7f8560\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah. Well, don\u2019t make those comments. Leave those to Rawiri!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f82356f40b2a4bbc9d77b23c7127988f\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Mr Speaker, that member in his question made an allegation of a statement made by the Minister. The Minister said that statement\u2019s not true. That requires that member who made the allegation by way of the question to apologise for it. You can\u2019t just fly by like that in this House, Mr Speaker. That\u2019s a fact.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9f49e0e76554b319c96d5d30560b50e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is a fact that your comment did question the answer of a Minister, which is not appropriate. So I suggest you withdraw and apologise for that and then ask your supplementary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022821c4419a4c84e2cbf01e1b95c359db4\u0022\u003ET\u0101kuta Ferris\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. Does he agree that banning patches and wh\u0101nau with alleged gang ties from attending tangihanga is a blatant dismissal of the M\u0101ori right to mana motuhake and a gross breach of Te Tiriti o Waitangi?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e111b9dfe1842cc9c95ff313d2111fd\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: People will be perfectly entitled to attend a tangi if they\u2019re not wearing a gang patch and they are not subject to a dispersal order. That is ultimately in the police\u2019s discretion. So I don\u2019t agree with his assertion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa3ff4d796254a6fb127636a0c444214\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Seeking clarity: is the Minister of Justice implying that the police make the rules for marae?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224110d794881c4f559853f4c7cd62f8b4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, that\u2019s not what he said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b688fdefe0b34f63bedf28264b19d0f5\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, we just heard that it is up to the police to decide if marae have patched members there. We\u2019re just seeking clarity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221330f503aa5b4249ad5171babf9c7291\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, what you heard him say is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022466f65db1b844eb58d71360161149bab\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Sit down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1fb71682ede40e784ad4de24783307c\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: No, I\u2019m not sitting down. You\u2019re not the Speaker, and you never will be at your age.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222617484a90f746b7993545c521d8e289\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That would apply to everyone in the House, as it happens. What you heard him say is that police have always had that discretion; in relation to what is not a concern for me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9e803e6d39546b1941492b85e81248b\u0022\u003ET\u0101kuta Ferris\u003C/span\u003E: What risk analysis has he undertaken to ensure that Government polices such as unbanning pseudoephedrine, unbanning semi-automatic weapons, and increasing benefit sanctions will not lead to more crime?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fb6efd1a9234d2aa1964aa30c3ecfd1\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Again, I would emphasise that there\u2019s all sorts of excuses that can be offered for crime, but people need to be personally responsible for their actions. This Government is determined to restore consequences for crime and to restore law and order in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec9e2ed7621144f898109f37675a5ae4\u0022\u003ET\u0101kuta Ferris\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. The question was: what risk analysis has been undertaken? Not merely a point of view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bf8565e3dd34186a5fbe4e041867a1a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t think that\u2019s a reasonable point of order. In actual fact, it\u2019s not a point of order; it is a concern that you\u2019ve got about an answer. That\u2019s quite a different matter. Do you have another supplementary?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bd4d72bfd06408380c4c3f61d0c590e\u0022\u003ET\u0101kuta Ferris\u003C/span\u003E: Just speaking to the point of order, then. The question was around the implication\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be59582f1c5e436abd6a8bf6e94c2a9f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. Look, the place functions on some pretty basic rules, and you\u2019re working outside that rule at the present time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210398b5491ca4b3b801878abb4cfc4b6\u0022\u003EHon Simeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I just want to ask a quick question in regards to assertions being put at the front of questions. There were a number of supplementaries just in that question, where there was an assertion being put at the start without a question actually being put first. I just ask your guidance on that issue for the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff74ce44fe3c4156803d6f7481954621\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have already today said that assumptions are not appropriate and nor are assertions, and nor are they actually permissible under the Standing Orders. But there is also a degree of understanding of how the intent of the question is meant to be taken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223ef3e4dd2e32475f915b83dfd747322b\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022 data-id=\u002238aecc83eebc4ae0adb9472018e95e46\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002238aecc83eebc4ae0adb9472018e95e46\u0022\u003EDr HAMISH CAMPBELL (National\u2014Ilam)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What steps has he taken to improve the health outcomes for all New Zealanders, including M\u0101ori?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u002272ecef3afbe643d2854189c22042fce3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002272ecef3afbe643d2854189c22042fce3\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E This afternoon, the Government passed the Pae Ora (Disestablishment of M\u0101ori Health Authority) Amendment Bill. This transfers M\u0101ori Health Authority staff and functions to Health New Zealand and the Ministry of Health. This transfer will retain the expertise needed to drive better health outcomes for M\u0101ori and all New Zealanders, and will be done with respect for fellow health professionals. I look forward to identifying other priorities for the health system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a5b69ac68ab4b03b823d7438c60fb52\u0022\u003EDr Hamish Campbell\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Government move to disestablish the M\u0101ori Health\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0310028368845089802b705c7b9ea40\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry\u2014hang on a minute. Ask it again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284c77d66ca5347caa3eef7c3e0201cc6\u0022\u003EDr Hamish Campbell\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Government move to disestablish the M\u0101ori Health Authority?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c98e5c370bd4fe193f5264a24dc68f2\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI\u003C/span\u003E: Disestablishment was agreed to by all three governing parties in their coalition agreements and mandated by the results of the 2023 general election, where it was canvassed at length. The disestablishment is a reflection of an approach that struggled to put health needs for all at its forefront and an implementation plan that faced significant challenges from the beginning. This Government remains committed to improving M\u0101ori health outcomes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a58df32439054786b1e5d452d3fd992d\u0022\u003EDr Hamish Campbell\u003C/span\u003E: What challenges have arisen from the health reforms which the M\u0101ori Health Authority was part of?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e009e8acb1743adabce5fd5dde41605\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI\u003C/span\u003E: It is not clear to me that the M\u0101ori Health Authority was well supported by the previous Government, who, in my view, were distracted by wider structural reforms to other parts of the health system. This distraction is evident from the report today by the independent ministerial advisory committee, which uncovered a significant number of problems which can be associated with a lack of ministerial oversight and political failure. Health reforms should not have been undertaken in the middle of a pandemic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fee86c1280848fcac0059bc895ee4ad\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Do the steps taken by the Minister to improve health outcomes include opting out of the international health regulation amendment days after taking office, repealing world-leading smoke-free legislation, and repealing the M\u0101ori Health Authority?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb2164941a764520afc7a6d95f047a8c\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI\u003C/span\u003E: The steps towards better health outcomes include some of the outcomes that are present in Pae T\u016B, some of the outcomes that are present in Whakamaua, and some of the health outcomes that we\u2019ll identify in our Government policy statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b2607293e85470494f49fc8969d9d02\u0022\u003EDr Hamish Campbell\u003C/span\u003E: What is the Government\u2019s vision for M\u0101ori health?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294b6705b61cb4f44ac06329e9c200168\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI\u003C/span\u003E: This Government is ambitious for the future of M\u0101ori health, and this bill signalled the beginning of a different journey\u2014a journey in which we strive to achieve better health outcomes for all New Zealanders, including M\u0101ori. This Government will ensure the health system is performing, after six long years of deteriorating health metrics. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b2b06c2779ce460db0337e87ca4de8ef\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Justice (Firearms)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u002231b12f2f16bc4d369e5eedafd8e74125\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231b12f2f16bc4d369e5eedafd8e74125\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Justice (Firearms): Does she stand by all her statements in respect of firearms reform?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022 data-id=\u002225221d9c77a84591ba2f08120325adcf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225221d9c77a84591ba2f08120325adcf\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice (Firearms)):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, in the context in which they were given, including my statements confirming the Government\u2019s intention to rewrite the Arms Act to improve public safety, reduce regulatory burden, and improve compliance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dedd8316e38b4002827663f8eafdb0ab\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Does she stand by her statements reported in Radio New Zealand that sports shooters may be permitted to own semi-automatic weapons, or does she agree with the Police, who have said such a change would introduce an unacceptable risk of high-capacity semi-automatic centre-fire firearms again becoming readily available in the black market through theft or provided by non-compliant licence holders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264f731c6453244cc9bdf9394345a915d\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: I did not make the statement as has been referred to by that member. But what I will confirm is that in rewriting the Arms Act and having enduring legislation, this Government will not take six days in which to pass legislation. We will go through a full process that will ensure that the communities of New Zealand are heard and participate in the legislative review. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb8a0726a0f8462eb1292a5f4b934792\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Hold on, your colleagues aren\u2019t ready yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222452e5e2443a40fb9991901bc9a7cffa\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with Nicole McKee when she said of gun reforms at the Justice Committee on 24 June 2021 \u201CAnd finally, just on the firearms changes in itself, I think it\u2019s really important to remember not only the loss of lives in Christchurch and Aramoana but the quarter of a million people who\u2019ve been affected by rushed legislation changes.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d227114890a4965b39debf7560d14eb\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely. I agree with what Nicole McKee said back then\u2014that we need to make sure that everybody is considered when it comes to legislation, including not only those of the mosque shooting but those that have been affected by gun crime that has been allowed to take place under the previous Government\u2019s regime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a44b5a8af97d40b282ee9060d1b3fb64\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216028cc85b384e8abf91b20921fc31cd\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Ah\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0c92554ffe7494ead3405f5a38dce14\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Kieran.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229add4030c9e64695ae75863ec22190f8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I know. I was trying to work out whether it was \u201CHonourable\u201D or not. The Hon Kieran McAnulty. Sorry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260f93edf114541c8b0b020ca0f1fae63\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: In light of the Minister\u2019s desire not to rush legislation, I seek leave of the House to move out of urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280ae9a395b6c4f2fbc18bd658859894d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231e68e44f8c340508640013284677145\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255060ec49724484289eb807b80ad5e44\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Does she accept that even stringent licensing, like that for handgun licences, will not stop all misuse of weapons such as that of Ian Dallison, who used his licensed pistol to attempt to murder his landlord on 4 August 2022?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce54ae9771ab44169be311b191f3e70a\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: I agree that it\u2019s time that we had legislation that actually looks after the security and the safety of New Zealanders, and that\u2019s precisely what this Government will deliver in this term.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d2bb12b6fbd4a6ca0c0e935afe5e687\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Does she believe that Christopher Luxon was telling the truth in September last year, when challenged that under his Government people would have more access to semi-automatic firearms, when he said \u201CIt\u2019s not going to happen.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ede07ec190e4cf0a6e3b4a82cfc6926\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not going to speak for the Prime Minister, but what I will say is that legitimate use, legitimate ownership\u2014and our coalition agreement agrees to rewrite the Arms Act to make sure that we have a good, safe system for New Zealanders, those legitimate owners and those that have been deemed to be fit and proper by the New Zealand Police.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225895a9e1b7834071ad5415d373484d42\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: How would permitting semi-automatic weapons address situations like that of Quinn Patterson, who in July 2017 murdered his property manager and her daughter with a semi-automatic rifle illegally supplied by a licensed firearms holder Michael Hayes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ca675501757436e813cc4223c1615ec\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: What an excellent question, because I\u2019m so glad to be able to speak to the regime that the Arms Act, that is going to be rewritten by the end of this term, is going to present for New Zealanders, which includes ensuring stricter compliance, security, and fit and proper assertations from those that are in possession and use. And I look forward to correcting the mistakes that the previous Government made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224400fc80c07d4f43973a6f3cbfa34c98\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207c8dd267ecc417abd5e53140893cc5f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, you\u2019ve used them all up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ba57c4a0071b4f35ab35d64a2b7915b0\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef9a1f4e098a40adaf0b02b765e40b21\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef9a1f4e098a40adaf0b02b765e40b21\u0022\u003ESAM UFFINDELL (National\u2014Tauranga)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What reports has she seen about her recent announcement on the ministerial inquiry into school property?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022 data-id=\u002280c32540cb10425295b0e52c156409fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002280c32540cb10425295b0e52c156409fa\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E There have been many reports on the ministerial inquiry into school property. Schools and principals around the country have been sharing their frustrations with delays and lack of certainty over the last few years. The Secondary Principals Association welcomed the review and the president said that longstanding issues with school property had become \u201Chorribly acute\u201D. The Auckland Primary Principals\u2019 Association President said primary schools are facing the same issues with school property and that the costs for bespoke school builds had got out of hand. School property is a priority for this Government. We have a responsibility to invest in property solutions that demonstrate value for money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227164ea63b6842e484b506abd869052a\u0022\u003ESam Uffindell\u003C/span\u003E: What has she heard from schools since she announced the inquiry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220590b1c90ec04495ae71455e0fdb0238\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Principals have been in touch with my office sharing stories of their frustrations. One principal wrote to share that after prefab buildings were demolished at their school in early 2023, building that was due to commence in July did not start. Instead, there have been delays, reviews, a business case, a review by an investment board, a detailed design, a consent process, and then a soft hold. Another principal wrote to me today to say \u201CI believe that this is very timely indeed, as many principals and boards have had grave concerns for a number of years.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c716b4c28f894290a95e188a3cc64538\u0022\u003ESam Uffindell\u003C/span\u003E: What other feedback has she received about the announcement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226112c7960cc246e7b05c3dcc892b08b2\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: An industry leader in the construction sector wrote to me saying, \u201CA massive thank you for getting on to this total mess. I watch in despair at what our schools are being put through.\u201D Another letter from a senior project architect expressed a concern that Ministry of Education requirements are contributing significant and unnecessary costs to projects. I also heard that \u201CAspects of the briefs are gold-bricked\u201D and that \u201CA silver standard will more than adequately meet education requirements while at the same time delivering better value for the taxpayer.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288d0e0cffd784f5b8567607f75dfcdcc\u0022\u003ESam Uffindell\u003C/span\u003E: Why is this inquiry needed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225625c7fd90664b6184037d92152c72fc\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Schools and communities deserve better. As I said in the House yesterday, these challenges are due not only to building cost increases but also, in the ministry\u2019s own words, to scope creep and over-reliance on bespoke designs and over-engineering add-ons, like extensive landscaping and infrastructure. It is imperative that we deliver the core infrastructure needs of schools, and the ministerial inquiry will consider how we best achieve a portfolio that is efficient and effective and delivers learning spaces that are functional, warm, dry, and fit for purpose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221348a9e579e34b5385555f9c9f6f62e3\u0022\u003ET\u0101kuta Ferris\u003C/span\u003E: How much longer will kura kaupapa, wharekura, and kura \u0101 iwi\u2014all M\u0101ori immersion schools who have already been waiting for decades for their classroom rebuilds\u2014have to wait for their school rebuild projects to be delivered in order to provide for our tamariki the best possible learning environments; and how long will this Government\u2019s inquiry take, and what is the time line for our kura receiving the school rebuilds that have already been promised to them? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb468e1ae53446d0a348a172a8ca2cad\u0022\u003EHon ERICA STANFORD\u003C/span\u003E: The ministerial inquiry is set down for three months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022906b895f95bf4da194f36915ec56deec\u0022\u003ESmokefree Environments and Regulated Products Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022589eb15c491449a7b659be5e73148f73\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000744\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022 data-id=\u00223d5ab251e16c416aaecc0876b3c1a534\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d5ab251e16c416aaecc0876b3c1a534\u0022\u003ESAM UFFINDELL (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise to support this bill. Look, nothing\u2019s really changed. We\u2019re sticking with the same legislation that\u2019s driven down smoking rates to 6.8 percent last year from 8.6 percent in 2022, and down from\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f431065e11a64550918a2d98366bcb5b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll tell you what; just hold on, Mr Uffindell. We\u2019ve stopped the clock. Would members who need to leave the House please do so quietly, with a bit of respect for the speaker on his feet. Please resume.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022460f2d2731ba4d33981be30f00ffb946\u0022\u003ESAM UFFINDELL\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. And down from 16.4 percent in 2012. Look, smoking rates have been falling consistently for some time, and that trend will continue under our Government. Labour\u2019s changes would have created a black market with more smuggling, more ram raids, but it doesn\u2019t have to be that way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003ELook, this Government is committed to the Smokefree 2025 goal, but we\u2019re taking a different regulatory approach. New Zealand has seen some of the largest drops in smoking across the world. And in the last three years, 219,000 people have stopped smoking, with 36 percent of those being M\u0101ori. If those trends continue, New Zealand will hit the deadline smokefree goal of less than 5 percent of the population daily by 2025. I support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002274281110c2124d209c88c3b13a267b63\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274281110c2124d209c88c3b13a267b63\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Ayesha Verrall.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e6cb2eac1e44f3cb0fb69404b837785\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 koe, te P\u012Bka. Is it No. 6?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e9e0328d8e641ce816bc0a0085e4af3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just a minute\u2014just lost my way here slightly. I call the honourable Debbie Ngarewa-Packer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba669799cb564073a91f6a1884d198aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba669799cb564073a91f6a1884d198aa\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora. I really appreciated being called \u201Chonourable\u201D e te P\u012Bka. I\u2019d like to stand and speak in opposition, as Opposition in opposition, to the bill that is before us. This bill is married to the last one, which is also married to the one before it and the one before it, where we continuously have a Government who puts profit over people and prioritises industry interests over public health interests. We continue to see a Government which has absolutely no shame in its continual advancement of its anti-M\u0101ori approach in policy and how it continues to justify its wellbeing of profit over people. It is well known that M\u0101ori have the highest smoking rates and we have the highest rate of death and tobacco-related illnesses, so to sit here and say that these decisions aren\u2019t being made against us is an absolute myth. We know what this Government\u2019s agenda is, and we will continue to call it out for what it is so that our people can see, because we\u2019ve got to keep reminding ourselves, Aotearoa: 83 percent of M\u0101ori did not support this Government\u201483 percent of M\u0101ori did not support this Government\u2014which is why there is such a comfort in how and what it is that they are rolling out in this hundred days of absolute colonising chaos.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EWhat we have here is an ability for a Government to actually do the right thing by its indigenous peoples and by tangata w\u2019enua, but they are so hell bent and so bitter and twisted by what has happened in the past to them, and so vengeful against M\u0101ori not supporting them in the last election, that we continue to see this absolute kick in the face of advocates such as our whaea Tariana Turia, Hone Harawira, who are champions of Smokefree Aotearoa; many of our advocates who are upstairs in the gallery. You completely disregarded the experts, such as those from H\u0101pai te Hauora. It is an unconscionable blow to the health of M\u0101ori in what we are seeing rolled out before us today. Nine hundred and nineteen submissions\u2014H\u0101pai te Hauora, Tala Pasifika\u2014and here we have this Government with a Prime Minister who says, and I want to make sure I get the wording right. The question was, to the Prime Minister, \u201CDo you know how many lives may be lost because you are making these changes?\u201D, and the Prime Minister responds, on 4 December, \u201CWell, not really. That\u2019s not been our approach. What has happened here is that our party and others oppose this legislation.\u201D \u201CHave you asked the question how many lives might be lost making this change?\u201D \u201CNo\u201D, our Prime Minister responded. \u201CNo. What I have focused on is actually realising that [we\u2019re] concentrating on the distribution to 600 outlets throughout the whole of New Zealand\u201D. So, again, when the Prime Minister was asked \u201CHow many lives might be lost by making this change; have you focused on that?\u201D, the answer was no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003ESo, today, we were debating with the Minister of Health on what he is guaranteeing. The Minister of Health is guaranteeing to us and Aotearoa that he has a better model, that he will personally take focus and responsibility and be all in the detail, all over what has been proposed to look after us. We are being told and guaranteed that he will act in the best interests of us as M\u0101ori, and I guess that helps us in some way, to put to rest that this isn\u2019t about a billion-dollar tax revenue opportunity for this Government\u2019s rich mates\u2014absolutely not! Why would those 83 percent of M\u0101ori who didn\u2019t support this Government go away with that belief, that, in fact, we have a Government who\u2019s prioritising the interests of the industry, the tobacco advocates, and continuously showing to us that they are out of touch, out of communication, out of contact with any of the very communities, the very public health experts, who have spent generations trying to hold this? And to take credit, to say, \u201CHey, it\u2019s OK how it\u2019s going. We feel we can make the changes now because the status quo\u2019s working.\u201D is to insinuate that there is no future investment or future vision for the wellbeing of us. There\u2019s absolutely no transformation ever promised by this Government. They will continue to backpedal to the place of comfort where the very systems that have harmed us are what they are going to be putting forward before us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EWe are calling for bold and systemic action\u2014we are not going to see it from this Government, wh\u0101nau m\u0101. So we stand again in opposition\u2014complete opposition\u2014of what\u2019s been proposed before Aotearoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022 data-id=\u00226f7f67d390a343b9b8e65ffc8e07086d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f7f67d390a343b9b8e65ffc8e07086d\u0022\u003EDr HAMISH CAMPBELL (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Let\u2019s be very clear about a few points about smoking: smoking is bad for your health. Second, our intention is clear: we want to continue to reduce smoking rates and to stop young people from starting smoking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003EThe nature of addiction is that demand does not respond rationally to reducing supply. While the demand for cigarettes is falling abruptly, limiting the number of outlets penalises the 300,000 people still dependent on cigarettes. If we take Auckland for an example, a 90 percent reduction in retail outlets will cause chaos. That would make for probably about 30 outlets for approximately 90,000 smokers. If you do the rough maths, they would need to serve two customers every minute, which kind of does point out that this legislation\u2014there\u2019s no way to make this happen; it does not make sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re on track to hit the smokefree target of 2025 and continue to drive down our smoking rates. While we\u2019re committed to it, we do not think that this legislation will do it. So, therefore, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u00226e3c1501282b45dca759bd133bae3a00\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e3c1501282b45dca759bd133bae3a00\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E In the last day in this House, we have heard some outrageous statements made about the last 2022 amendment to the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Act. We were told that that bill was virtue-signalling and that it will have no effect. So I want to say why it is that that bill matters. This is why. It matters because tobacco is the most harmful product in New Zealand. It kills 50 percent of the people who use it. It is the leading preventable cause of death in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EI want to tell the people on that side of the House about what smoking does to the people in our community, in case they don\u2019t know. In my years as a junior doctor, I admitted to hospital thousands of people suffering from the harms of smoking\u2014people who had emphysema so bad that they became prisoners in their own home, and the slightest cold set them off and brought them to hospital gasping for air, and they would tell me that even when they were well, they couldn\u2019t walk to their mailbox. I have diagnosed dozens of people with cancer. I have seen many people have amputations due to tobacco.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EThe 2022 amendment to the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Act was evidence-based. The denicotinisation of cigarettes has been studied in multiple clinical trials. Retail outlets are known to be associated with undermining people\u2019s efforts to quit. They are known to be concentrated in our poorest communities and those communities with more M\u0101ori and Pacific people living in them. Do you know the reason why this Government is cancelling our Act? It\u2019s because it actually would have got there. It would have got us to our Smokefree 2025 goal, which previously was a bipartisan-held goal, and without that legislation, it\u2019s predicted that this Government will take until 2061 to achieve that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EWe know that that legislation is incredibly popular, and 60 percent of New Zealand don\u2019t think this repeal should go ahead. That\u2019s why that side of the House was silent on this issue at the last election, and in the coalition agreement the voters learnt that a dirty deal was done behind closed doors, and we found out that these proposals that are a wish list from the tobacco industry were making their way into our households. Thousands of people, over 40,000 New Zealanders, signed a petition against this bill. Over 9,000 doctors were parts of organisations that demanded a select committee process. Hundreds of health organisations have condemned the Minister of Health and the Associate Minister of Health for bringing in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EThe cartoonists have had their turn too, calling out \u201CDr Cigareti\u201D and \u201CNicotine Willis\u201D and making the Government a laughing stock. And speaking of a laughing stock, we have the mystery of the document that miraculously appeared in the Minister\u2019s office, but she can\u2019t say how it got there, and she can\u2019t really give satisfactory answers to the House about whether or not she spoke the truth to a journalist on this matter. This\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a23e592d6a34313a6efff4206301083\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Anything that might be considered to be an accusation of inappropriate speaking to the House\u2014I\u2019ve let go the term \u201Cdirty deal\u201D. I think you\u2019ve just got to be a little calmer about the way you put your argument.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279f9309ef5bd4258a3c7c1a7eab3c457\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: This week, I had the privilege of travelling up and down the country to meet with New Zealanders who care deeply about this bill. One of the highlights of my visit was to go to Manukura School in Palmerston North. I met with about a hundred year 12 and year 13 students who should be entitled to a smokefree future. They deserve long years with their grandparents. They deserve a future free of the influence of tobacco. I want to tell the members on that side of the House that their ramming this bill through under urgency will not achieve what they think it will. Citizens have options in this country too, and the options that many in the Health Coalition Aotearoa are considering pursuing is a citizens initiated referendum to make sure that this issue that stinks doesn\u2019t go away. The smell of this issue will hang around this Government for months and years to come.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EOur people deserve a smokefree future. I\u2019m proud that in the Labour Party I played my part in fighting for that, and we continue to oppose this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022 data-id=\u00220eca696073334cfeb35e819082609335\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220eca696073334cfeb35e819082609335\u0022\u003EDr CARLOS CHEUNG (National\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E There is no doubt that smoking and second-hand smoke directly cause and contribute to long-term negative effects on the body, including cancer, cardiovascular disease, and respiratory disease. It is one of the main causes of premature death and disability in New Zealand. This Government is committed to the Smokefree 2025 goal. We want to continue to reduce the smoking rate, but we are taking a different regulatory approach. We want an approach that is practical and helps smokers to quit. We are supporting a package of initiative\u2014an initiative that\u2019s focused on those who need them the most\u2014to ensure we reach the Smokefree 2025 goal. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u00227aec554389e1492e818d46dcde4673ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227aec554389e1492e818d46dcde4673ab\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Mr Speaker. I enjoy listening to the language from members on the other side of the House, who are clearly not describing exactly the detrimental effects and impacts on communities that this repeal legislation will do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ESmokefree 2025, at its core, is simply about saving lives. It was making sure that our tamariki and our mokopuna didn\u2019t grow up around tobacco, they didn\u2019t grow up around cigarettes, they didn\u2019t get tempted to have a sneaky cigarette, because we know that once they do, they are hooked. What this Government is actually doing is making it far more accessible. Despite their semantics and their words saying \u201COh, no, we still believe in the target.\u201D, the facts are on the table. Smoking kills. It is very clear. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThousands of New Zealanders around this country are clear that they don\u2019t support this. The Government talks about having a mandate. Simply look at the numbers: New Zealanders have said they do not support this course of action. It is absolutely appalling that the Minister introduces this bill here off the back of repealing the M\u0101ori Health Authority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EEvery member on that side of the House has stood in this House and said, \u201CWe\u2019re committing to smoking cessation programmes.\u201D Show me the money. Show all of those workers out there who work hard in our communities to stop people from smoking\u2014on that side of the House, it\u2019s all rhetoric. They are going to take the money that\u2019s going to be provided through taxes and they\u2019re going to give it to their rich mates. It\u2019s as simple as that. Follow the money. The lines they read come straight from the lobby industry for tobacco. It\u2019s as simple as that. They might sit down on that side of the House and say, \u201CNo, no; this is what our community have said.\u201D They\u2019ve all said the same thing, and those are drafted lines that are given to this Government to put through this terrible, terrible bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224de57e618142425e9c708197e9222157\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll just make the point that it is quite contrary to the Standing Orders to suggest that anyone in the House is somehow beholden to anyone outside of the House\u2014other than those who elect them, of course. I just suggest that the member think about that in the balance of his contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d5dfa24c96246fd87258cb5ac2c66a3\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. The evidence will bear itself out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s quite clear to me that on this side of the House\u2014and to many of my colleagues on this side of the House\u2014when that side talks about a black market, actually what they mean is targeting M\u0101ori. That means that they\u2019re going to put more cigarettes, more smokes, into our community. Guess what! It\u2019s going to be M\u0101ori people, Pacific people, low socio-economic people who will be hugely impacted by this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard terrible statistics. We\u2019ve heard this Government say, \u201COh, well, you know, it\u2019s already trending down, but we don\u2019t want it to trend down too fast.\u201D That\u2019s the message that they\u2019re sending: \u201CWe want it to trend down, but we\u2019re going to just slow it down a little bit because it\u2019s going too fast for us. We\u2019re not making enough money out of this.\u201D That\u2019s the sad reality of the work being done by this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI recall my cousin\u2014actually, member of the National Party\u2014Mr Tau Henare, who led the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee on an inquiry into Smokefree 2025. At the end of that inquiry, Tau Henare, a long-time smoker, a lifetime smoker, took the commitment to stop smoking. It\u2019s been an up and down journey for him, but guess what? He\u2019s there now, and I\u2019m proud of him. The point, though, is that at that time, some 50,000-odd New Zealanders\u2014M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori\u2014signed a petition to say, \u201CThis just isn\u2019t good enough. Let\u2019s set a target and let\u2019s make sure we eliminate smoking in our communities.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ESome of those people are in the gallery today; those hard-working people who made the target a reality for our people\u2014the reality that this Government is stripping away. The likes of Sue Taylor; a staunch advocate for M\u0101ori health and, indeed, for this particular kaupapa. I want to mention one of my good tuakana Shane Bradbrook, another man who fought really hard and, sadly, also copped the consequences from, what we like to call in politics, the dark arts. Hone Harawira, a former member of this House, campaigned up and down this country passionately and still does to this day. Anaru Waa, Heather Gifford, the many M\u0101ori researchers who have clearly made the case that smoking kills\u2014this Government is going back on that, and that\u2019s simply not acceptable. I don\u2019t buy for one second them saying that \u201CWe\u2019re still holding fast to the target, yet continuing to increase the accessibility of cigarettes in our community.\u201D It just doesn\u2019t stack up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThroughout the course of this bill, this side of the House will continue to prosecute this bill clause by clause, line by line, to make sure that the stink that comes with it will continue to hang around the neck of this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u00227bbe537fc7604444b5dba8815f1e8442\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227bbe537fc7604444b5dba8815f1e8442\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a pleasure to rise after my whanaunga from the North, the Hon Peeni Henare, and to follow this for a brief contribution on this bill. I rise as a former smoker\u2014I\u2019m not proud of it and it\u2019s something I deeply regret. But I look at New Zealand\u2019s track record of reducing smoking rates over the last few decades, and the evidence is clear: what has driven that down\u2014the two main reasons are increase in taxes, and the second area is a change in attitudinal behaviour towards smoking. It\u2019s just not cool.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003EWe are absolutely committed to following that line of thinking through actions to get us to Smokefree 2025. My colleague down here pointed that we are on track to achieve Smokefree 2025 aspirations. I just don\u2019t believe that this, the actions that we\u2019re repealing, would have actually substantially reduced smoking rates even further, so I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00225bed07bbe3684fa6b034338c0d3b50ec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225bed07bbe3684fa6b034338c0d3b50ec\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I call on Ingrid Leary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c35069a9ed8f45ab8e918e9354c9770a\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, Mr Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1393896f1044159b7958d34c25d324c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b9dca2c76844e358e5d4386a4da06df\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277c7e26c259f4c309cbe37dbd494a316\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, sorry. We\u2019ve actually used up all the speaking slots. Sorry about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a45c19191954ebb93d60b6298182170\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a76ffbca60ba4e9c978233586b6eaeb7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s that? [Interruption] Oh, sorry\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a428b60f22f47ffbf2f00083656ff11\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: I believe it\u2019s a first lot\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba5ada6600f04641ad787dcde4935fb8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re done? [Interruption] Yeah, we are done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022113c0e919b7243178da4314ecd0d0ebb\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: I would have been happy to take a call, but thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2576dab4e26482e90d5e90202136330\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I know that you\u2019re always happy to take a call, and many of us are quite happy to listen. But that concludes the first reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022449b057aaf344b0ba87b69cdb5d681c9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000792\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022760cf7877fb04162b4e1fbfd5aebd59c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022760cf7877fb04162b4e1fbfd5aebd59c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for second reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227e6f42cdb17b43beb0ab5c4fdb3d68f6\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u0022667b9e40c9da4aefa0740ee33aaeaa38\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022667b9e40c9da4aefa0740ee33aaeaa38\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Amendment Bill be now read a second time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EWe have seen a lot of emotion and heartfelt passion in the House today, and it is to be applauded and acknowledged. This is a truly important issue. Firstly, I want to comment that, unfortunately, even today it is clear that there is a lack of understanding on what is being done and the approach that is being taken. Even today, there is commentary about increasing access. It is clear that this is incorrect and it is not what we are proposing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EThe black market will hit M\u0101ori\u2014I can say that as a sad reality. And that is exactly the point why we are wanting to ensure that there are the tools to enable those who are addicted to smoking to quit. And cutting off supply does not reduce demand. There has been much talk of a landmark position, and I would have to agree. The landmark is that we are all united on the outcome we hope to achieve. We want, collectively, to remove the scourge of smoking harm.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EI can, sadly, attest to nursing and watching the last breath of people who I\u2019ve loved more than anything, and felt the loss in a way that draws me to anger at the harm that tobacco smoking has caused. This is why I\u2019m so focused on bringing about legislation and regulation that is targeted where it can do the most good. I will bring a paper to Cabinet next week, and that will provide for immediate actions and longer-term strategies to achieve our collective objective. We will continue to clearly identify what is working and looking at all options that might help those who remain addicted to smoking tobacco to quit. I think it is important at this time to refocus our thinking and provide some balance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EWe have heard a lot from the other side of the House about the numbers on which the modelling that drove the development of this legislation we\u2019re repealing. The statistics they relied on were from 2019 and 2020. We have had four years of outstanding progress since that time. In the period since the data was used, 305,000 people have quit smoking. Youth smoking in that time fell from 10.3 to 3 percent. This is the position we are in now and this is the strategy we are focused on to continue to meet our smoke-free targets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EThis is why we need to calm the noise and recognise that we are focused on addicted smokers who need help to quit. Currently, we have 284,000 daily smokers that need our help. This is not a contest of who thinks smoking is the most harmful. It is an opportunity to make a real difference and deliver on our Smokefree 2025 targets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed53cb4122b34d339a99c083dcc03375\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed53cb4122b34d339a99c083dcc03375\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u00229f29bd8f1666455e8119771e1167edf6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229f29bd8f1666455e8119771e1167edf6\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise once again to oppose this bill. This bill repeals the provision of the 2022 amendments to the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Act, and it\u2019s worth canvassing, for the purposes of our debate, the measures that were in that Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EThe Act contains three measures that are crucial to ending tobacco\u2019s hold over the health of our people. Firstly, it addresses the number of retail outlets. Tobacco, despite being the most harmful consumer product there is, that kills half the people who use it, is not regulated with respect to who can sell it, and that means that we do not even know where tobacco outlets are. That, firstly, means that there is a proliferation of outlets, particularly in poor communities, in M\u0101ori and Pacific communities, and that drives greater use amongst those communities. In particular, it drives youth smoking in those communities, and it undermines people\u2019s everyday efforts to quit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EOnce more, targeted enforcement activities are very hard when you don\u2019t know where the outlets are, and that\u2019s why making an approved retailer scheme would have meant that efforts to do controlled purchase operations, so as to identify where outlets were selling to people who are, say, under the legal purchase age, would have been beneficial.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003ESecondly, the Act sought to denicotinise tobacco, and that has been studied in multiple clinical trials from around the world. It is incredibly effective at helping people to quit with the correct dose of nicotine, as the studies have shown. The correct dose, a very low dose of nicotine in those cigarettes, will make sure that people do not compensate in their smoking. Many of them\u2014a majority of them\u2014go on to be able to quit with that. Of course, in the context of a safer alternative\u2014not a safe alternative\u2014like vapes, there is a way for supporting people with their addiction, too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EThis proposal, the denicotinisation proposal, was incredibly popular with the National Party when we debated this in 2022. In fact, Dr Reti\u2019s key concern about the bill, if I recall, during the debates, was that the denicotinisation should be brought in first. The evidence clearly points to its effectiveness.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EThirdly, the Act does something that you would think all people in this House could agree on, which is to create a smoke-free generation to mean that people born after 2009 would never be able to legally purchase cigarettes. It\u2019s not prohibition, as some have suggested; there is still nicotine available in the form of vapes. Secondly, it is not a criminalisation of the people who are underage. The Act says that this will be enforced by fines against retailers who sell to those people; it does not regulate social supply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EThose measures together were deemed to be incredibly effective, and modelling presented to the Health Committee\u2014that\u2019s separate modelling from the one that the Ministry of Health commissioned\u2014showed that this was not only incredibly effective for reducing the costs on our health system and for saving the lives of New Zealanders; that modelling also showed this was far and away the most effective public health intervention of any intervention that the investigators could think of on the books. So on a day when the House has heard so much about wanting to promote better outcomes for M\u0101ori, this is the same day for M\u0101ori health that we are repealing an Act that could have done so much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EIn fact, the modelling also showed that the Act would have eliminated one-third of the life expectancy gap for M\u0101ori women\u2014one-third. That is such an important difference. It is not a difference you\u2019ll be able to make by speeding up wait times in emergency departments or getting surgeries faster. You cannot make that type of difference, as the research has showed, any other way. This is such an important thing for the health of our people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EI want to thank all of the researchers who put time into coming up with that evidence. Not only did they do considerable work to support the deliberations of the select committee but they also have had long careers in tobacco control, which are not the most comfortable careers to have. And there have been notable examples of academics who do this type of research and activists who support tobacco control being targeted for their views and for their work. Kia kaha to my friends who are doing this work. You know we will continue to make sure that your findings are heard in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EI want to go back to why the Smokefree Aotearoa 2025 goal was set, and it\u2019s worth remembering that that is a 5 percent prevalence rate across all of New Zealanders, but also recognising the inequities\u20145 percent for M\u0101ori and 5 percent for Pasifika. My colleague the Hon Peeni Henare has also already pointed out the work of his whanaunga Tau Henare, who was on the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee at the time that that goal was set. The M\u0101ori Affairs Committee took deliberations up and down the country in the course of setting that goal. They heard from people who had lost their relatives to tobacco. They heard, I believe, some quite confronting stories, and so that\u2019s why it was with bipartisan support that they were able to bring the goal for Smokefree Aotearoa 2025. Now, the advice we had was that we would miss that goal and we would not achieve it until 2061 without doing something differently, and that is why the 2022 amendments are so important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EI want to touch on some of the issues that the Minister has raised about what else, not just the\u2014our approach to tobacco is never just a regulatory approach. There is also a very important role for quit services in New Zealand and for other supports. I agree with that. In fact, that was embedded in our smoke-free approach. We had over $20 million allocated in the recent Budget for supporting those initiatives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll tell you about one of them, one that is really dear to my heart. I went to visit a service called K\u2019aute Pasifika in Hamilton, where they are promoting smoke-free, and they explained to me that the types of services that they are running are culturally specific. They\u2019re not confrontational; they don\u2019t sit you down and ask you why you haven\u2019t quit smoking yet. Instead, they create a positive environment around people where they do waka ama, they are surrounded by people of their culture, taking pride in their culture, doing physical exercise, and smoke-free messages and support are provided incidentally to that. Those sorts of initiatives are really important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EVaping has played a role in supporting quitting as well, but I am also concerned that the way in which vaping has been regulated has meant that what is intended as a quitting tool is now far too frequently available to younger people. I was pleased to attend the rally with members of Vape-Free Kids at Hastings in the weekend. We must make sure that our tobacco control initiatives are also making sense in terms of keeping kids away from vapes. I know that group who is present in the gallery desperately want a meeting with the Minister, and I hope that that meeting will happen soon, because the issues they raise about keeping kids off vapes are very important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EThis issue is one that is of profound importance to our health system, and our health system, full of its hard-working staff, has struggled in recent years coming out of the pandemic. I think one thing that really cuts to the core of so many health workers is an absolute belief that we have to get rid of the scourge of tobacco from our communities. So I know that many of them are hugely disappointed by the idea that the 2022 amendments are about to be repealed. I think it really behoves the members on the other side to listen to the perspectives of hundreds of organisations that have called out how awful this bill is, how shameful it is that such violence and harm is being done to the health of our people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u0022b5918b47684242398b0c8f5b152b4e66\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b5918b47684242398b0c8f5b152b4e66\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Green\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E E te M\u0101ngai, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. My question for the House is: who asked for this? Because, freely and frankly, looking through the select committee submissions and the public outcry that we\u2019ve seen in response to this track of agenda from this Government, and the support that we saw when this world-leading legislation came in, is that the only entities that we can identify who are asking for this legislation to go through the House today are New Zealand First and the tobacco industry. If that doesn\u2019t give you a clue of who this legislation serves, then I do not know what does. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThe next question is: why is this legislation going through under urgency? Because, we\u2019ve had a lot of back and forth over the last few days about the fact that this Government is ramming through an agenda under urgency, without any regard for convention or public input\u2014the select committee process that would usually occur when legislation is before the House. The argument that we\u2019ve frequently heard in response is, \u201CWell, there was an election. An election therefore means that, you know, with all of the things that we went out and said that we would do, well, we can just do that.\u201D, without any regard for parliamentary scrutiny, without any regard for due process or the usual protocols of this place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThat kind of leaves us with the outlying question of whether it\u2019s the case that this Government sees that simply because there\u2019s an election every three years, we can revert to authoritarian rule outside of that. Because that does fall as a question to the feet of this Government, because what we have here is a piece of legislation that, so far as we can identify, has only been asked for by the tobacco industry and by New Zealand First. It is going through under urgency by virtue of the fact that that exists as a commitment in the New Zealand First - National coalition agreement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThe next question then becomes: what does this legislation actually seek to achieve? Because I\u2019ve got to be honest with you that I\u2019ve heard some really Orwellian and completely contrarian contradictory statements from the Government on this. They\u2019re saying that we\u2019re reverting back to a track by which we were already seeing a decline in smoking rates. That is what existed prior to this landmark legislation. But the really simple question for them, which they have not been able to front up to and be honest with the New Zealand public about, is that this legislation will\u2014must, by virtue of the evidence and the advice that they themselves have commissioned\u2014result in a slower decline in rates of smoking in this country. What that means, by matter of fact, is that more New Zealanders will die as a result of this legislation going through the House. That is a fact. That is the evidence. That is a fact. It is irrefutable. I dare any members of the Government to stand up and say that, to say the opposite. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EWhat this bill does is slow down the reduction in smoking rates, therefore meaning that a product that kills 50 percent of its consumers will continue to do so while there are slower rates of people coming off smoking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve also heard in question time, just today, that there was some apparent concern for the black market, and for, you know, dairies. I just wanted to put, actually, in the public record\u2014once again because, you know, facts do actually kind of matter when we\u2019re debating legislation, not the least when they\u2019re doing this under the guise of urgency, within less than 24 hours. There has been a lot reported on and a lot kind of undertaken by our investigative journalists in this country to get to the heart of the fact that the campaigns and the petitions that have been fronted by ostensible dairy owners have been backed by Big Tobacco, which takes us back to the core point that the only people, the only entities and organisations, asking for this legislation to go through, let alone under urgency\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c631214c9173454a8dd0ac05440cac39\u0022\u003ETim Costley\u003C/span\u003E: You just held up a picture of dairy owners. What about dairy owners?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210fb353908c244cfb13a45010c140356\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014without due public process or scrutiny, is the tobacco industry, which will kill half of its consumers, Mr Government member, and New Zealand First. So, we come back to this point around the black market. I was saying, off hand, just as I was leaving the Chamber before, to another member of Parliament, that evil and cruelty in a Government agenda does kind of frustrate me, but, more so than that, the most fundamentally frustrating thing is inconsistency, because we\u2019ve heard this Government consistently say that they\u2019re concerned about the black market that\u2019s going to be generated by virtue of greater regulation in the tobacco space.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d119d99e9e6b401fa1e1703db4fbdc9c\u0022\u003ETim Costley\u003C/span\u003E: Are you consistent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cce009b0c6e4623bad6b64b19398310\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK\u003C/span\u003E: I dare members of the Government to show any logical consistency whatsoever\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228dcf50cb14ef43a5b4e51f44c376410a\u0022\u003ETim Costley\u003C/span\u003E: Smoking marijuana is fine; smoking tobacco is not! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222860b4ad4be94239afaea20bb6ca0aed\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK\u003C/span\u003E: I am really glad that a member of the Government brought up cannabis, because if we want to talk about cannabis and we want to talk about sensible regulations to cannabis, you are saying that criminal prohibition of tobacco results in further issues with regards to people consuming tobacco. What we\u2019re saying, when we\u2019re talking about regulation of substances, with the Greens being the only party consistent on this, is, if you\u2019ll listen to me, that at both ends of the extremes, my friend, criminal prohibition of substances results in extremes of harm. A completely legal free market results in extremes of harm. The reason for that is that whether you have commercial entities or criminal organisations who are responsible for the supply chain of these substances, you have the maximisation of harm. That is because profit is the core motive. So, my friend, if you will listen to me and engage in a meaningful debate about evidence-based policy on substances and drug harm reduction in this country, then get up and actually make a meaningful contribution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThe point is that we have to take away from those extremes and get into a space of sensible regulation. That means that we do not have criminal prohibition and we do not hand over controls to an unregulated free market. So what the legislation did\u2014which the Government passed through before there was this change of Government and now this unpicking, shredding, of all of the actions that were undertaken in the last six years\u2014is that it would have reduced the number of retailers in this country who were selling tobacco. That would have resulted in less tobacco being sold and less tobacco being consumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EWe have it here in black and white, actually, from an Official Information Act request, through Treasury and a number of other Government officials who were asked to reflect on what the impact this might have for revenue forecasts for the Government. We have it on record, as tabled today, that half a billion dollars in extra revenue will be added to the Government coffers as a result of this change. Once again, that gives us irrefutable evidence that there will be an increase in consumption of tobacco, and, as a result, more New Zealanders will die. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThat leaves us with the final question of \u201Cwhy\u201D\u2014why the Government is doing this outside of the fact that New Zealand First and the tobacco industry have asked for it; why the Government is doing it under urgency without any due process for public scrutiny as is the typical convention in this place; why they\u2019re riding roughshod all over that; again, that question lies at the feet of the Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThe kind of quite dark insinuation that you can draw from all of this is that this Government also is pursuing an agenda of austerity and of tax cuts. They are cutting public services\u2014they themselves declared that in black and white\u2014and they are pursuing tax cuts, which we know, again, based on their own public statements, will disproportionately benefit the wealthiest and the highest income earners in this country. It is not outside of the realm of believability, because, again, it is in black and white here from Treasury and their own correspondence that this is going to add half a billion dollars in revenue to the Government\u2019s coffers because more New Zealanders will die consuming tobacco.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s really just that black and white, and it boggles the mind that the Government is somehow trying to say that they\u2019re still really concerned about\u2014in fact, the Minister, the Hon Casey Costello, was saying that this is not a contest of who cares the most. Well, Minister, I would say to you that this is a contest of putting your money where your mouth is. This is a contest of actually following through with evidence-based policy. So far, all I have heard is quite Orwellian statements akin to \u201CWar is peace.\u201D We are being asked to believe one thing, one piece of rhetoric, when the evidence just says completely the opposite. We are not even able to have a meaningful parliamentary process with select committee, with experts coming in and telling us how this is actually meaningfully going to function.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EIf that doesn\u2019t frustrate parliamentarians, new MPs, particularly on the Government side, who came to this Chamber\u2014I heard their maiden speeches over the last few months saying that they really care about this country. They really want to do this thing properly; they really want to reach across the aisle and do things for the future outside of the three-year cycle. Guys, I hope you\u2019re waking up and realising that you\u2019re the bad guys. This is what happens when you railroad across democracy. You actually really not only frustrate those who would like to come forward and put their opinions forth, and showcase what the evidence and data says, but you also make the country a worse place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve just got to say in summation that it\u2019s a dark day. It\u2019s really, really gutting. It\u2019s really, really gutting that in the blink of an eye\u2014in the blink of an eye\u2014we are going to undo some of the most evidence-based measures that any Government has taken on reducing substance harm in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EJust finally, I wanted to point out to what the former Minister the Hon Dr Ayesha Verrall was speaking to, with regard to how the framework that this Government is repealing is not criminal prohibition. The Greens fought really damn hard to make sure that the framework that the Government put in place just prior to the election was not criminal prohibition; it was sensible regulation, and we do not commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022 data-id=\u0022895f8857fed54d4c837b3ef72a7cf64f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022895f8857fed54d4c837b3ef72a7cf64f\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019d like to start by sharing some of my experience with smoking personally. It\u2019s not about a family member; it\u2019s about me. You know, I was a young builder on a building site smoking rollies without filters for years. It\u2019s not a good look.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EWhy did I quit, right? I didn\u2019t quit because it was made impossible for me to buy. I quit because one day I realised that every tax that I was paying on that cigarette was going to the Government. And, as a young, ideologically consistent person, I couldn\u2019t quite do that. I didn\u2019t want to be ripped off, so I stopped buying cigarettes. I threw a packet out the window and no longer smoked anymore. It took me a long time to lose the cravings, so I understand how hard it is to actually quit cigarettes. And I was only smoking for a few years, right? It\u2019s actually difficult. People who have smoked for decades, I can only imagine how much that tears at you. I have family with addiction, not cigarettes, but I can see how hard it is to quit and how reliant you can become.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003ESo the idea that prohibition of nicotine, which is essentially what this is, was going to have any good result, the fact that it was a gradual lowering of the nicotine in cigarettes to the point where it basically was driving people into the arms of the worst to get their fix\u2014and yet the last Government decided that banning outright was the thing that was actually going to solve this, not push it into the black market, as we\u2019ve heard about. Addiction, as member Hamish Campbell said, is not rational. People with addictions go to irrational places to feed that addiction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b302b23572b424a9f8c4c0505c726b0\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Decriminalise drug users, then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230690ef0a0a24d37bb79743eb9efd637\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I mean, if you guys had done a better job in 2020, we might be able to liberalise it a bit more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3b13d4b12134ff289a320c71e47cfd0\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: We weren\u2019t in Government in 2020.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247d2ecb74d384375a7632dc914c120d0\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you campaigned on it. So the point is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217fec407e5e749df94c78857d6da0513\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: We weren\u2019t in Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf4c98ddbe7f41eaaeed0ffd2c045cdd\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON\u003C/span\u003E: You guys had it; there was\u2014look, let\u2019s not get derailed into a cannabis\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b646709047d416eab3ba78c871b0ac9\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re derailing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000846\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5eb0c47ecd44dedb3da3769725a2133\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, sure. Fair enough\u2014fair enough. I\u2019ll get back on topic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000847\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ae999bf2f3840f6905f3498b59f6d9b\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s the Speaker\u2019s choice. You can either get into the debate or you can carry on with your\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000848\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f8b8986c0204f148afe7a75c45a47c2\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, sure. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EBut last week in this House, Greg O\u2019Connor gave a speech in which he referenced the book Chasing the Scream, and it talks about how prohibition, when poorly thought-out, leads to bad results. There\u2019s evidence accumulating over the Tasman, over our own borders, and in container ships coming in in my home city with black market tobacco on board. A small and illegal market versus, as we currently have, a large legal market will invert. We will have a large illegal market putting profits in the pockets of gangs, and that is the last thing that we need to have in this country. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022 data-id=\u00224f05ae38fed94f9494d54459a424f5b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000850\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f05ae38fed94f9494d54459a424f5b2\u0022\u003ESAM UFFINDELL (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Look, there\u2019s a lot of passionate debate around this. I want to acknowledge my colleague Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick for her contribution\u2014very passionate evidence-based contribution, and I continue to enjoy your efforts here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000851\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a304df66a83440ea895243f4c150ae80\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Give us some passion!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000852\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfefb670615b44a7bac3fc18a68f9fd1\u0022\u003ESAM UFFINDELL\u003C/span\u003E: I can bring my own passion, and the reality is that the National Party supports this bill. Look, we want to be clear on our intent that we want to continue reducing smoking rates in New Zealand. We want to stop young people from smoking and taking up vaping. We\u2019re just taking a different regulatory approach. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000853\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003EI remember when we were having this discussion last year and\u2014he was the Opposition health spokesperson at the time\u2014Dr Shane Reti put through a few Supplementary Order Papers around vaping, which would have made a tangible difference to the significant uptake in youth vaping we\u2019re seeing in New Zealand. The Government at that time did not support them and I was very upset to see that, but we can revisit that in time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003ELook, Action on Smoking and Health (ASH) says New Zealand\u2019s progress is unprecedented and we are on track to hit the smoke-free target. We will provide people with the practical tools to stop smoking and vaping, and better protection for young people to stop them accessing vaping products. But, you know, this is a much better approach to the prohibition-style approach that the Opposition has put forward and planned by the previous Government. We\u2019re going to be a lot less punitive than they were. We\u2019re going to provide them with more choice to help them quit, and we are supporting a package of initiatives to ensure we reach the smoke-free goal 2025. I support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002244970855f2c44d0890161fc5ba7a2465\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002244970855f2c44d0890161fc5ba7a2465\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The next call is a spilt call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022 data-id=\u0022787f90d67833480abda55934633328b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022787f90d67833480abda55934633328b7\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe. Thank you e te P\u012Bka. So I rise for the second reading and continue our approach on disagreeing and standing in opposition to what\u2019s been proposed. I do want to make reference to the Minister and reflections on\u2014often we\u2019re here and we agree on the same goals, just not the same way to get there. And we all agree that a healthy, smoke-free country is something that we all aspire to. So, on reflection, I have absolutely no doubt of the new Ministers and some of their intentions to assume their role and make their mark, and obviously make their mark in the hundred-day time line that they\u2019ve got as well. But\u2014I guess the \u201Cbut\u201D has to be\u2014on the basis that in this particular case, and the ones before, actually, there is not the support of the experts\u2014there is not the support of the experts\u2014of those communities most affected. And I cannot say that enough. I think it\u2019s really important that we as politicians remember that as much as we can do\u2014all that we do in this House\u2014it\u2019s the experts out on the ground that have to live with this and live with the decisions that this place makes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EThe second thing with my \u201Cbut\u201D is it\u2019s really reconciling the Minister\u2019s absolute intent to make a difference\u2014is that the decision coming out of this Government is aligned with the amending and the intention of the tax cuts. So it\u2019s really hard\u2014and actually there\u2019s a third \u201Cbut\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EThe third \u201Cbut\u201D is that this is done through urgency. So those experts, and those that know a heck of a lot better than you and I in this House\u2014I beg your pardon, e te Speaker\u2014are not given the opportunity to share what it is that, in their expertise, they know we\u2019re going to have to contend with as a country beyond the three years of Governments\u2014the three-year terms, six; whatever. So it\u2019s really hard not to remain cynical about this Government\u2019s intent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EI understand the appeal for us to be quiet and to be calm. And yet there were 47,000 signatures on the petition that we received that asked us to be extremely loud and extremely vocal and make sure the views of those who had opposing views were heard and seen. And this continuously is the theme because we are a Government, and have a Government, that did not get supported by 83 percent of M\u0101ori. So we have to make sure that the Government feels and hears and sees them. It doesn\u2019t matter that you may have relationships. It doesn\u2019t matter that you may have had a side conversation. The reality is that the stats are the stats; the facts are the facts. And while you have a mandate, you do not have a M\u0101ori mandate. So it\u2019s really important\u2014our place in here is to make sure that the opposing views to your views are heard. You cannot debate with 47,000 signatures. If we are going to use these positions of influence to ignore that, then what else are we going to ignore going down the track? So we are here, by right, to make sure that we speak for those that haven\u2019t voted for you, that we speak for those communities you don\u2019t reach into, and that we make sure that they are seen and heard. So they urged\u2014they urged\u2014that we don\u2019t support this bill and that we stay focused on the Smokefree 2025 vision that\u2019s been in place since 2006.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003EToday, I heard a member on my left saying M\u0101ori should take personal responsibility\u2014damn right. Damn right we should. Every time we try to\u2014it\u2019s called \u201Ctino rangatiratanga\u201D\u2014you take it away. Every time. Every time we go to self-determine\u2014through the Speaker\u2014you take it away. You take our ability to look after ourselves, you take our ability to speak to ourselves, you take our ability to be well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000861\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283bcfd60e32c4a3989525d84a7fdd967\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Could the member please refrain from using the word \u201Cyou\u201D. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc6223a3127a46f98d163d7d5f66ed2a\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Government\u2014the Government. Thank you. The Government\u2014particularly this Government. So this assertion that there is no such thing as \u201Cpersonal responsibility\u201D is actually, simply, an ignorant point of view of how we work as M\u0101ori. That\u2019s my whakaaro.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003ESo I think it\u2019s really rich\u2014it\u2019s really rich\u2014that we continue to see a Government that promotes and says, \u201CM\u0101ori, get up off your backside and go and look after yourselves.\u201D\u2014that\u2019s my summary of what \u201Cpersonal responsibility\u201D is. But every time we go to do it, we have a Government to my left, who has absolutely no reach in that community, saying that you should repeal, that they will disestablish, and they will counsel every move we make. I hope that those petitions and those signatures get seen and heard in this place. Kia ora r\u0101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022 data-id=\u00227d8ad5e7fc3a48d7b7c9738b9fd69074\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000864\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d8ad5e7fc3a48d7b7c9738b9fd69074\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker, members of this House, we have a whakatauk\u012B in te ao M\u0101ori: He aha te mea nui o t\u0113nei ao? [What is the greatest thing in the world?] Sang a song about it too earlier. Engari m\u0101ku e mea atu ki a koutou, he p\u016Btea, he p\u016Btea, he p\u016Btea. [I will say to you, it is money, it is money, it is money.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EWhat is the greatest thing in the world? As we\u2019ve heard today\u2014and, in particular, around smoke-free and the cuts that are going to come\u2014it\u2019s p\u016Btea; it\u2019s a dollar, because the tax cuts that are to come need to be funded from somewhere, and it\u2019s this Government\u2019s proposal that it\u2019s going to come from the pockets of those addicted to nicotine. Five-thousand people die annually from smoking-related illnesses, and I\u2019ve been on the front line in my history, working as a quit coach. I can tell you about the ABCs, offer you some brief advice, and access some cessation support. I know the work of the sector has been strong and long, and Smokefree 2025 was a reality for us all. I acknowledge Auntie Catherine Manning and the team that have been in the House today monitoring the debate, hearing the k\u014Drero, and, in fact, the passion and commitment that we have to continue to push for a smoke-free generation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EIncreasing access to tobacco products and retailers in our communities only leads to further harm. I spoke earlier about Kawakawa having nine retailers in the community. We don\u2019t need any more\u2014we don\u2019t need any more. And the Health Coalition Aotearoa, they released an analysis around, actually, if we maintained the trajectory of Smokefree 2025 and implemented it as planned, we could save $1.3 billion in health spend. We would not need to fill up our hospitals with those who are impacted by ill health caused by nicotine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EWe heard on the campaign trail the National Party talk about better health outcomes and a relentless focus on results. Yet I can\u2019t find anywhere in the National Party\u2019s campaign where they said they were going to repeal smoke-free legislation\u2014something that\u2019s world-leading, that the entire sector looks to us for leadership\u2014can\u2019t find it. Maybe I\u2019ve missed it. It might be somewhere. Or maybe it\u2019s just been a kaupapa of New Zealand First bringing it into the House as a part of their coalition agreement. I am disappointed, as a kaimahi of the sector, having worked with M\u0101ori health providers in DHB, and also as a portfolio manager at the Ministry of Health, knowing the gains made to date. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000868\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EWill resource be put into smoking cessation services, community awareness, and pushing for further community action? The inception of Smokefree Aotearoa 2025 was based on evidence. You\u2019ve heard that from this side of the House. Because, ultimately, this repeal will see te iwi M\u0101ori as casualties. It will impact us the most. We have the highest smoking rates. The goal was never about maintaining addiction e t\u0101tou m\u0101; it was about eliminating the harm within our communities, because our communities are the ones who are dying from these products. And yet we have a Government now and this legislation wants to remove the approvals of the Director-General of Health to sell tobacco products, remove the limits on the number of retailers so that there can be more than nine in Kawakawa, remove the Director-General of Health\u2019s approval of products to be manufactured and produced and sold in New Zealand, and remove the requirement of tobacco products to meet the low nicotine limit of 0.8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000869\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EI worry about the retention of the sale age of 18. My baby, my p\u014Dtiki, born in 2009\u2014we need to see a smoke-free generation now, not tomorrow, and not in the future. May we make the commitment to better health outcomes for all New Zealanders based on real evidence, not on political lobbying. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022 data-id=\u0022644da04bb87148bf93f3defc10a3fcf2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000870\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022644da04bb87148bf93f3defc10a3fcf2\u0022\u003EDr HAMISH CAMPBELL (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak in the second reading of this bill. I want to thank the members who have shared their personal stories of overcoming addiction, because it is a great challenge here in New Zealand. But I am glad that over the last number of years we\u2019ve seen a steady decrease in the number of smokers, down from 16.4 percent in 2012 to 6.8 percent last year, and those rates have been continuing to fall before even this last amendment comes into effect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000871\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003EIn the last three years, 219,000 people have stopped smoking with vaping playing a key role. Importantly, close to 80,000 of those who stopped smoking were M\u0101ori. If these trends continue, New Zealand will hit the smoke-free goal of less than 5 percent of the population smoking daily by 2025. We already have a smoke-free generation. Smoking rates for young people have dropped hugely. The 2023 Action on Smoking and Health survey of year 10 students shows youth smoking rates of 1.1 percent. These numbers should be encouraged. We would suggest that people stop smoking, but we don\u2019t think the previous amendment legislation will do it. That\u2019s why we support this bill. Thank you very much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u00229764bb817f344bfeb7d1a575858c6297\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000872\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229764bb817f344bfeb7d1a575858c6297\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m not sure where to start, to be honest. It is a sad day, it\u2019s a dark day, it\u2019s been a terrible day for this Parliament, and it\u2019s been a terrible day for New Zealand. Why I\u2019m not so sure where to start is because I just listened to the previous contribution and I expected something a little bit more passionate from a cancer researcher. I remember sitting by Hamish Campbell, the member who has just resumed his seat, at the Christchurch Cancer Foundation pre-election, where not one single mention of repealing this legislation was made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000873\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EIn fact, when I look back, I remember him feeling a bit sheepish, and I remember the good people of the Christchurch Cancer Foundation being very specific and being very exercised about what might happen if this lot took Government\u2014and hasn\u2019t that just come to fruition, because National didn\u2019t campaign on this. They didn\u2019t campaign on it because it wasn\u2019t a priority for them at the time. It wasn\u2019t a priority for them at the time because it wasn\u2019t until afterwards, when New Zealand First and ACT got in on the act, that they realised that they now had to fund those tax cuts somehow. So all things were now on the table, weren\u2019t they?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000874\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EWhen I think about the legislation that\u2019s being repealed, I remember my time as the chair of the Health Committee, listening to the submissions and all of the experts who lent their time, who gave us their expertise, who were very passionate about not only their lived experience but their life experience as experts in this area. If we recall, as our contributions that have come before us have done so, about the three legs to this piece of legislation that\u2019s now being repealed: reducing the outlets, reducing the nicotine in cigarettes, and actually creating a smoke-free generation. It\u2019s like a three-legged stool: each of those components was part of taking the next step forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000875\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EIt is true that smoking rates have reduced\u2014fantastic. That\u2019s happened over time, but now comes the gnarly bit where we have to get to the tough-to-reach people. Now comes the bit where we don\u2019t just say to ourselves \u201CWe\u2019re dealing with the people who are over 18 and under 100 today.\u201D, because people age into this cohort. Every year, those young people are growing up and they\u2019re growing into the cohort that we are talking about. It\u2019s not going to end unless we do something more, and this was a really, really good piece of legislation that\u2019s now being repealed. It was regarded as being world-leading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000876\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EHow did we go from literally talking about end game for the tobacco industry in New Zealand, to now talking about \u201CWow! What an influence the tobacco lobbyists in New Zealand have.\u201D We\u2019ve caved into them. We\u2019re protecting people who, by virtue of selling smokes\u2014as long as you take it as directed\u2014will kill half of the people whom they\u2019re selling to, and all the time just to fund tax cuts. It\u2019s just incomprehensible to me. I don\u2019t see many people on that side of the House who can actually look straight and go, \u201CWe knew that this was going to happen.\u201D You didn\u2019t know this was what you were going to do. You didn\u2019t know this was what you were going to have to sit there and defend, but that\u2019s what you do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000877\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EI think about all the people who made submissions to the Health Committee, and, in particular, some of the experts who have spent their life, whether it be in behavioural science, whether it be in economics, whether it be in health research\u2014people with various expertise, different modalities, and different methods of getting to the nub of the facts, and they all were so excited. Almost all of them had to get up in the middle of the night to submit to the Health Committee because they were in the Northern Hemisphere, and they couldn\u2019t wait to do so because they were so pleased that New Zealand was making this move. We had media from all over the world talking about what good legislation this was going to be, and we know that officials and people within New Zealand, within the ministry, within advisers\u2014many, many people who brought a whole expanse of their expertise and their evidence to pass, and it just seems like such a shame.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000878\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EWhen we talk about the smoke-free generation in particular, it was said by Dr Humphrey, who was the then chair of the New Zealand Medical Association organisation, that the best way to become smoke-free in Aotearoa was to prevent our tamariki taking up smoking in the first place. That just seems like a no-brainer, doesn\u2019t it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000879\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EIt makes me think about the Minister now being faced with an opportunity to make some compromises. I just can\u2019t get it through my head why those compromises wouldn\u2019t be undertaken. Look, I understand you\u2019ve got to save some money to make tax cuts work. But why can\u2019t some compromises be made? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000880\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EThere were compromises offered to the Minister to introduce a purchase age of 25, which was not ideal, but it still would have saved some lives and it still would have saved some money; there were compromises being offered to the Minister to introduce a nicotine limit of 1.3 milligrams per gram, which was a little bit more than the 0.8 that we were aiming for, but an awful lot less than the 15 that exists at the moment; and there were compromises offered to the Minister to consider maybe even a higher cap of 600 outlets, maybe a few more, maybe a sinking-lid policy. There were plenty of things on the table, but they were all turned down because, by hell or high water, this was going to go through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000881\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EWhen situations arise to that effect, you\u2019ve got to wonder\u2014as other contributors have said today\u2014who\u2019s actually running this show. For whose benefit is this repeal? This is just the tobacco lobbies and this is just for tax cuts, and you know it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000882\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a870ab8c16d433ba72cabd35802ed8a\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just take a moment here. We looked up a Speakers\u2019 ruling earlier, and I just want to make it very clear for the House, because we\u2019ll have a committee of the whole House stage coming up soon, but under Speakers\u2019 rulings 55/5 and 56/1, a member can say that the Government has been influenced or was given advice from outside. That\u2019s fine, but I just want to let people know, before anyone steps over the line, that it\u2019s not in order to say that the Government has been dictated to or subject to outside domination or has received instructions or directions. Just so members know where we stand on that one at this point in time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000883\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022448cb563e6594c42898b480926d9dc29\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000884\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284f49b9f3b314f68bf53a7bf0cc7954c\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not suggesting that the member has gone over that line.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000885\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7117c6e89364ab187fcce90e557dab2\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN\u003C/span\u003E: Point taken\u2014point taken. Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m happy to move on. I\u2019m absolutely happy to move on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EOne of the other things that we\u2019ve heard in the contributions that have been made to date is this bogeyman of the illicit tobacco trade. Again, this is something that came up in select committee. I remember the New Zealand Institute talking about \u201CBlack markets, black markets\u201D. So afterwards, we asked researchers \u201CGive us everything you know about that. We need to be informed.\u201D They came back and said, \u201CNot so much so.\u201D There wasn\u2019t any hard evidence to justify those lines. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000887\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EThen, when you look at it and you look at the academic study, just a quick google search five minutes ago shows the British Medical Journal in 2019 did a comprehensive study looking at all of the different research that\u2019s been done\u2014that which was commissioned by the tobacco industry versus that which wasn\u2019t\u2014and it just showed up that tobacco industry data on the illicit trade of tobacco is not reliable, the methodologies aren\u2019t good, there are lots of different ways in which it\u2019s not robust, and that is the conclusion. So if that\u2019s what you\u2019re basing your arguments on the black market and the illicit trade, it\u2019s a white elephant, and it\u2019s not good enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve also heard about the cost-benefit analyses and all of the other things that made sense with the previous legislation that\u2019s now being repealed. We heard that the New Zealand health system stood to save $5.25 billion in health spending with these repeals in place, not to mention the $6 billion in increased productivity over the lifetime of the New Zealanders who were alive in 2020, and that\u2019s not to be overlooked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EWhat we\u2019ve also heard is that whilst the Minister has said, \u201CWe\u2019re still committed to reducing smoking. Everybody\u2019s committed to reducing smoking.\u201D, no one has come up with a plan, and, if this was something that they were hellbent on doing, if this was something that they\u2019ve got their mandate from, why haven\u2019t they done the policy work? Why do we have to sit here today and have this repealed without any idea of what\u2019s yet to come? It\u2019s because the policy work hasn\u2019t been done, because it\u2019s an afterthought.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000890\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EWe also know that despite all those well-meaning wishes of how the Minister would like to see smoking continue to be reduced and how it\u2019s only just a matter of continuing on with the status quo, even though that trajectory hasn\u2019t been played out in real life, we know that the reduction in those rates won\u2019t be achieved until 2061. How many people die in between that year\u20142061\u2014and when we would have achieved that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000891\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003ELook, honestly, National and the Government have death on their hands. I just think it\u2019s a shameful, shameful day when after we have just sat through a day and a half of listening to the vacuous arguments about repealing the M\u0101ori Health Authority, we\u2019re now doing exactly the same thing for a piece of legislation that collectively we all should have been proud of, but because someone\u2019s got to get $2.50 a week for tax cuts, we have to see it repealed. I think it\u2019s a very dark day indeed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022 data-id=\u0022041aa4d88b914c078b5aac2a3380ff2a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000892\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022041aa4d88b914c078b5aac2a3380ff2a\u0022\u003EDr CARLOS CHEUNG (National\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to acknowledge all the healthcare workers, community leaders, and volunteers for their contribution to the Smokefree Aotearoa 2025 goal. Under the current legislation, we\u2014together\u2014have successfully driven the smoking rate down over the last decade. Daily smoking is down from 16.4 percent in 2012 to 6.8 percent in 2023. The number of year 10 students who smoke has dropped from 11 percent in 2009 to 3 percent in 2022. However, this is not good enough. More work needs to be done, especially in the M\u0101ori and Pacific communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022\u003EThis Government is committed to the Smokefree Aotearoa 2025 goal. Our new approach will be focusing on those who need\u2014and we\u2019ll accelerate progress towards our 2025 smoke-free goal. I support this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00228846fae5277a49bc91481e906563d9e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000894\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228846fae5277a49bc91481e906563d9e1\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This call is a split call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea6f6d6876524c75a2cb44884e918bd1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000895\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea6f6d6876524c75a2cb44884e918bd1\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana, Madam Speaker, thank you. Look, I do feel for some members opposite because I think they\u2019re being forced to get up and take a call and talk about something that, in their heart of hearts, they know is absolutely the wrong thing to do. What I would say to them is that there is still an opportunity for them to do the right thing and to cast their votes in favour of the future generations of this country, something that is still always open through to them to the last moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000896\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThis is an absolutely outrageous opportunity for this Parliament to effectively repeal amendments that were put in place; that there was no doubt about the fact that they were going to make a real difference. They were changes that were based on evidence. It seems something that this current Government is actually not willing to take a look at, is actually not willing to make sure that evidence is something that they are basing decisions on. I know that, for example, the Health Committee that looked at these particular amendments at the time did consider things like a sinking lid, but in the end decided not to head down that particular path, instead limiting the number of licensed premises. I also know in terms of denicotinisation, that was something that was discussed; there was evidence around that and landed where the current law sits.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000897\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EWhat\u2019s really compelling, I think, is the opportunity for a smoke-free generation to come from all of this. That is a fantastic opportunity that this Government seems happy to just squander away. And we know why: because this is something that was not campaigned on. This is a Government that is very eager and keen to remind everyone that they won a general election. Well, I tell members of this House that they did not win a general election going to the polls based on this particular policy. Recent movements\u2014recent examples\u2014indicate that that has come as a huge surprise by members of the community, that they have, effectively, been blindsided by this. To have this piece of legislation rushed through this House in urgency is an absolute shambles. This is, effectively, a report card on a Minister who is deficient in her ability to actually deliver change that is meaningful for our community up and down Aotearoa New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000898\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI had the privilege of chairing the Health Committee when this piece of legislation progressed through the Parliament, and I recall that there were members who came from all around the country. I recall Tau Henare, I recall Hone Harawira, who encouraged the select committee to go far and wide to hear from the very communities of interest for whom this piece of legislation that is currently enforced would make a huge difference\u2014and we did that. I recall going to South Auckland, and not a single member of the National Party members of that committee bothered to turn up to that select committee hearing. Not a single member bothered to listen to the evidence, the experiences, the personal tragedies, the personal stories, the opportunities that this piece of legislation would provide for them and their wh\u0101naus now and into the future. That is an absolute indictment on the way in which some members on the opposite side of the House seem to take the views of communities of interest for whom this will make a huge difference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000899\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EEarlier this afternoon, my colleague Dr Verrall talked about visiting Manukura in Palmerston North. I can attest to the fact that those young folk who are there\u2014who are largely from members of our M\u0101ori cohort\u2014were absolutely dumbfounded that this was something that this Government wishes to progress, that this is a Government that, effectively, is prepared to sign the death warrant for future generations by this particular piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000900\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThis is something that, actually, also members of Manukura talked about: \u201CWhy is this not actually something that members can vote along matters of conscience? Why are members bound by party politics when it comes to protecting the health and wellbeing of future generations?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000901\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fea291e8357e4e3db415f51d4f016ac7\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Kids are smart.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000902\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3e24a7e452a4e7f8a55bb5aede88401\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: And that is that\u2014kids are smart, particularly in Palmerston North. I know that that was something in particular that they felt should be available to the Parliament. But we all know, don\u2019t we, that if this was a matter of conscience, we know that the Government would not have the numbers to pass this legislation. Because deep down in the hearts of members of this Government\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000903\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c895af93bc36458fa4ee20467e03639a\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Must be a few.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000904\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282acfe18f2f443bcbed6bf6ea6bf16a7\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014they know that\u2014and some of them do have a heart, Mr O\u2019Connor, I\u2019m sure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000905\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228374f89309ea45718d92b00f3acbee3d\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: A conscience.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000906\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213f24f9cf3ef4cf5b4e2bb4d40e84e9f\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: A conscience is another matter. But they know that this is the wrong move; this is the wrong route to take. Well, I say to members opposite that this is not going to be an easy run through the House\u2014this piece of legislation\u2014because members of our community all around Aotearoa New Zealand who submitted to the select committee and who didn\u2019t expect us to hold members opposite to account\u2014and we intend to do that because this is a crap piece of law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022 data-id=\u0022d466dd25f16c4532a56c845f9f193cef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000907\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d466dd25f16c4532a56c845f9f193cef\u0022\u003ECAMERON BREWER (National\u2014Upper Harbour):\u003C/span\u003E A member across just asked \u201CWhy haven\u2019t they done the policy work?\u201D, and can I just remind the House and those viewing today of a couple of key pieces of legislation: the 2011 Smoke-free Environments (Controls and Enforcement) Amendment Act and the 2016 Smoke-free Environments (Tobacco Standardised Packaging) Amendment Act, all under a previous National Government. And there was also a plan to more than halve the smoking rates and haven\u2019t we achieved that so well. As Dr Campbell said, we are on track to reach Smokefree 2025, where 5 percent or less smoke. And so we are on track to achieving those goals of 10, 12 years ago, and so I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u0022e540e928689b462a8443a51c42e066ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000908\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e540e928689b462a8443a51c42e066ce\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Three weeks ago today, I said farewell to my elderly mother. She passed away and we had her funeral. My mother was 87, and she is someone I would describe as a born-again non-smoker. So, when I grew up, my mother smoked\u2014she smoked a bit. She smoked quite a bit, actually. And then, I remember when I was about seven years old that mum had a really bad asthma attack. And I remember her pointing to a number\u2014it was 111 on a piece of paper\u2014and indicating to me that I needed to call that if she was going to pass out. That was the last time that my mother\u2014who had cut back to two cigarettes a day\u2014ever touched a cigarette. And after that, she became an ardent non-smoker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000909\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EI mihi to her today, and I am so proud of her for making that choice, because my mother lived to 87 years old, and she got to meet my three children, the last of whom is 10 years old. That would not have happened if my mother had kept smoking. She got to spend holidays with them. I got that joy of seeing the relationship between my mother and my children. It\u2019s something I am so grateful for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EBut my best friend did not have the same experience. Her mother also smoked at the same time my mother did. My best friend, Beth, and I, I remember we would go on car trips. In those days, the tobacco companies were really pumping out a lot of misinformation about the harm from tobacco, including passive smoking. And I would feel physically sick at the end of the drive for two hours as she chain-smoked in the car. When my eldest son turned one year old, my best friend Beth\u2019s mother passed away from lung cancer. She never got to see any of her grandchildren. My best friend has missed out on that whole journey with her mother, and so have her grandchildren.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000911\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThis is the reality of what we are talking about in this House today. This is a product that kills half the people that use it. I find it appalling that members of the Government stand and read off notes, that they have not acquainted themselves with the arguments of this incredibly serious matter before us today. I take the point that my colleague Tangi Utikere said\u2014it is not too late. This is your nuclear-free moment. This is the moment. Through you, Madam Speaker, I address members of the Government to say, \u201CYou can cross the floor.\u201D It happened in 1984 when Marilyn Waring was nearly stopped from speaking on a nuclear bill. She threatened to cross the floor and it resulted in a snap election. That is how seriously she took her duty to her constituents. It happened in 2004 with Dame Tariana Turia and the foreshore and seabed legislation. Well, guess what? It\u2019s 2024\u2014let\u2019s have another 20-year cross of the floor. Let\u2019s see the Government members find their conscience and do what is right for them, for their constituents, and for their communities. That is the justification for crossing the floor. Because Tangi Utikere is absolutely right: this should really be a matter of conscience. Alcohol and drugs are matters of conscience. For some quirk of history, or perhaps it is the misinformation peddled by the tobacco industry, this has not been included in the conscience voting. And I guarantee you, if it was, they would not have the numbers there today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000912\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EIt is absolutely incredible that the Government, who has not campaigned on this, is taking this incredibly serious matter and using the numbers, providing MPs with notes\u2014MPs who have not engaged with select committee, who have not engaged with the hui around the country\u2014to just read off notes, to do one- or two-minute speeches and rush this through urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000913\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThe experts are saying that this is wrong. The experts\u20149,000 doctors\u2014not just my colleagues. And I have to tautoko to Dr Ayesha Verrall here, who did incredible work leading the smoke-free legislation\u2014world-leading work. That has not been acknowledged. And she was continuing a journey that was from Governments of all stripes. So it is disingenuous for the previous speaker, Cameron Brewer, to say that it was their Government. This has been an ongoing trend where Governments of all stripes have taken the responsibility seriously. This is the first time there\u2019s a break in that. The experts wrote to the Prime Minister. They asked for this to be repealed. And they said, \u201CIf it cannot be repealed, at least put it to a select committee so we can hear from communities whose wh\u0101nau will die as a result of this.\u201D\u2014the 8,000 whose lives would have been saved by this legislation. But, no, that hasn\u2019t happened.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000914\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWhat about the $5.5 billion to the health system? That is not only cost savings for those who would have not smoked, but we know the strain on the system. What about all the other people lining up for other health-related issues who will not get their operations, who will not get their interventions, who will not get their scans because it is being taken up by a new generation of smokers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000915\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThe amendment before us has been described as weak, deceptive, and embarrassing by Health Coalition Aotearoa. They have collected more than 50,000 signatures, and yet this Government persists in the face of all that opposition. Why? I\u2019ll tell you why, because they seem to hate M\u0101ori\u2014they seem to hate M\u0101ori. On Radio New Zealand 10 minutes ago, there is a story by Guyon Espiner which says that the Minister was told that putting this bill through would be seen as a breach of the Treaty of Waitangi\u2014she was told that. She was told that the health gains for M\u0101ori would be five times that of the general population. That might have done something to bring the smoking rates down from 17.5 percent to the 5 percent that this Minister purports to want to achieve. Well, I don\u2019t know how she\u2019s going to do that unless she can come up with something radical in this ghost paper that we have not seen yet going to Cabinet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000916\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThis is an affront, on the day that this Government has dismantled the M\u0101ori Health Authority; in a week where this Government has said that cultural reports will no longer be available to those who cannot pay for them in our judicial system, which is going to put more M\u0101ori into prisons. That is the advice that the actual justice Minister Paul Goldsmith gave to Cabinet\u2014it is on the record. He said, \u201CThis will put more M\u0101ori in prison.\u201D But, no, they\u2019re going to do it anyway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000917\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThe thing that offends me the most is the sneaky, insidious way that this is being done. Where is the health Minister? Why has this number one public health issue that has so much impact been delegated to an Associate Minister of Health? Where is he? Why is the Associate Minister rejecting any compromise at all, carte blanche? We heard from Dr Tracey McLellan that perhaps there could be changes around the nicotine levels that were a compromise, or the age of sale, or perhaps, at least\u2014at least\u2014get the outlets away from our schools. But no, carte blanche. What does that mean? Why does the Minister seem to have lines that echo very clearly with those of the tobacco lobby? I will quote from the Public Health Communication Centre: \u201CTobacco companies have an overwhelming commercial interest in opposing effective tobacco control policies \u2026 They have made misleading or false assertions, lobbied and influenced decision makers, manipulated research \u2018evidence\u2019, undermined independent researchers, and developed alliances by creating or cultivating front-groups to promote their goals.\u201D That is an evidenced report, which is more than I have seen from this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000918\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ETheir data is shonky. There\u2019s been the question that Dr Ayesha Verrall has raised time and time again in the House about the inexplicable handwritten note about an excise tax change for tobacco companies. We have not heard adequate answers to that. There have been Official Information Act requests on vaping from leading New Zealand media. The Minister has failed to answer any one of them. She has said that she will answer when she puts this bill in the House. I take that as an indication that this Minister is going to stand up at the committee of the whole House stage\u2014given that there is no select committee and that this is in urgency\u2014to answer the very, very, very many questions that we have. Because, as other people have said, this Government did not campaign on this. They cannot say they have a mandate within their 100 days. It was not transparent, they are doing this under urgency, they have not got the consultation and the voice of community that has been demanded by experts, by communities, by petitioners.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000919\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESo, Madam Speaker, through you, I urge members of the Government\u2014it is not too late\u2014to do the right thing. Do the right thing by the constituents that no doubt are lobbying you and walk across the floor and cast your vote according to your conscience. I guarantee, if that happened, we would have a historic nuclear-free moment, and this Parliament would have done its job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022 data-id=\u002223b2090f306f491b9e99d45092071e3a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000920\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002223b2090f306f491b9e99d45092071e3a\u0022\u003ETIM COSTLEY (National\u2014\u014Ctaki):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker, I\u2019m not going to stand here and listen to members opposite parading around on their moral high horses as if they\u2019re the Midas of anti-smoking. I\u2019m not going to be lectured to by those who drove our health system into the ground, to hear the Leader of the Opposition, who clearly cares so much about this that we haven\u2019t seen him in the House ever since he spoke.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000921\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003EThe arrogance of those who would say that their bill, their measures in 2022, were all that was going to work to deal with smoking in New Zealand when none of them are in effect. They haven\u2019t banned smoking; the ban was going to trickle in slowly over the next 80 to 90 years. Well, frankly, I say a ban in 90 years is not a ban at all. The only measures that have worked for anti-smoking in this country are those measures that this bill leaves in place. They have halved smoking in New Zealand in the last 10 years, and they will get us through the next 10 as well. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e762c29414c344e09ab335f0f57c4079\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000922\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00221983b99a4f684f9281ea6d4902329a4f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000923\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221983b99a4f684f9281ea6d4902329a4f\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for committee stage immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000924\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223a6a3a7c9d9944069f5d99ca89d109a8\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229637a9ab461443359fdd9a3e82f0f440\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to principal Act\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002262dd9b1a14d041cf85065baf5cda193b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000926\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262dd9b1a14d041cf85065baf5cda193b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Amendment Bill. Members, we now come to Part 1. Part 1 is the debate on clauses 4 to 24, \u201CAmendments to principal Act\u201D. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2946d6345964260898467b82fb4dc7c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000927\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2946d6345964260898467b82fb4dc7c\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I want to ask a set of questions around section 3A, \u201CPurposes of this Act\u201D, in clause 5. I want to ask the Minister a series of questions about changes to the purpose of the Act and I want to understand why she has taken the approach she has. I want to understand better the direction she is seeking to chart in terms of tobacco control and the outcome she has said she is pursuing in terms of reducing the number of smokers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000928\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EI want to first ask why the purpose has changed, and in particular why the following provisions are removed from the purpose section of the Act. Why is it that the purpose statement that read \u201Cto prevent the harmful effect of other people\u2019s smoking on the health of others, and especially on young people and children;\u201D is now removed from the purpose of the Act? Second-hand smoke is a serious health issue. People can die from second-hand smoking. Tragically, babies die from second-hand smoking through sudden, unexpected death in infancy (SUDI). Second-hand smoke affects young people in their homes, in their cars\u2014which has been regulated against\u2014and we also regulate smoking at schools. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000929\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EIf I am to understand the Minister correctly, she has stated she does not intend to change other elements of tobacco control away from what she said was working in the past. Yet we see in the purpose clause of this bill a removal of the idea that we should be preventing tobacco control impacting others when it does so as second-hand smoke. So I want to understand from the Minister why she is making this change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000930\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003ESecondly, I want to understand why there is a change in the language with respect to marketing. As far as I have known up until this point\u2014and we\u2019re working under urgency, so we don\u2019t get the bill long in advance\u2014I didn\u2019t understand that the Minister intended to bring changes around the laws for tobacco marketing. Yet in section 3A(e) we see that she has changed the language. It now reads \u201C(e) to regulate and control the marketing,\u201D. In 2022 the amendment Act said, \u201Cto restrict\u201D marketing. And, indeed, that is the point. We don\u2019t allow tobacco marketing in public places. We also have plain packaging\u2014a change proudly brought in by a National Government, as we heard during the second reading. So why has this language changed? Is there actually an intention to change how the marketing of tobacco or vaping products occurs in New Zealand? I think these are very important questions that have not been surfaced by our debate so far. And I do hope that we\u2019ll be able to get answers for those because, of course, as we\u2019ve heard, we have not been able to have a select committee on this bill. So we must get as clear answers as we can at this stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000931\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EThe third area of changes in this purpose statement occur in multiple places in section 3A(e). We see that the emphasis is on \u201C(e)(i) discouraging people, especially children and young people, from taking up smoking; and (ii) discouraging non-smokers, especially children and young people, from taking up vaping or using smokeless tobacco products; and (iii) encouraging people to stop smoking, vaping, or otherwise using regulated products; and (iv) discouraging people who have stopped smoking, vaping, or otherwise using regulated products from resuming smoking, vaping, or using regulated products;\u201D, and so on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000932\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EThe language in the previous Act said \u201Cpreventing\u201D. That is much stronger language, and so when we hear about the Minister\u2019s other plans, which we\u2019re told will be the subject of a future Cabinet paper\u2014and we recognise that we do have to wait to hear what these initiatives will be, uncomfortable though that is\u2014it does seem that there are rather large policy changes afoot here. So I\u2019d like to understand that from the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u0022cde995e8998a4394b9a9ca677f2f4173\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cde995e8998a4394b9a9ca677f2f4173\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you for the opportunity\u2014which is very welcome\u2014to ask some incredibly important questions of the Associate Minister of Health the Hon Casey Costello, and just to remind this committee that this is an urgency process and we\u2019ve had a Minister who has not been very forthcoming to the fourth estate, the media, or I might say we are not satisfied with the answers given in question time. So it\u2019s really important that we get some good-faith responses to the questions that we\u2019re about to ask, particularly in relation to the legislative process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000934\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESo if I look at the section under the general policy statement and departmental disclosure statement and refer\u2014I went to look on the House website to try and get a handle on the robustness of the process that has been gone through in order to inform this bill. I\u2019d really like to hear answers from the Minister, because, when I look at the legislative disclosures, there are questions in here, which the Government are required to answer, around \u201Cpublicly available inquiry, review or evaluation reports that are informed, or are relevant to, the policy to be given effect\u201D\u2014the answer is no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThe same applies to the regulatory impact statement. A regulatory impact statement was not prepared for the bill, as this was part of the Government\u2019s 100-day plan. This is something that doesn\u2019t sit easy, clearly, with many members, and so we\u2019d like to understand the checks and balances of that, given that this was not campaigned on. So where exactly does the mandate come from, that the Government is saying that it has? To say that it\u2019s just from the general election is not satisfactory when there are no checks and balances and where there has not been transparency of the policy that is being implemented. \u201CExtent of impact analysis available\u201D\u2014no. Any analysis, like cost-benefit analysis\u2014no\u2014or \u201Cpotential for any group of persons to suffer a substantial unavoidable loss of income or wealth?\u201D No. And that\u2019s a really interesting point that I would like to understand, because all the evidence would show that those who are affected by smoking-related illness, many of them will suffer a huge loss of income or wealth that would be avoidable should they not have taken up smoking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000936\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThe purpose of the original Act, the one that is being repealed, the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products (Smoked Tobacco) Amendment Act 2022, is to stop people taking up smoking in the first place. When we look at testing of legislative content, the Treaty of Waitangi\u2014we have a bit of a blurb about the urgent Waitangi Tribunal inquiry, and yet we have the timing of this bill being introduced prior to the outcome of that. So that\u2019s another question that I would really like to hear from the Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000937\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWe also have external consultation. And this one really gets me, because the following agencies were consulted\u2014there\u2019s a yes on that one, and then there\u2019s a whole list of Government agencies, including the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment; the Ministry of Education; the Ministry for Ethnic Communities, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade, Customs Service; Police; Oranga Tamariki\u2014that is what is purporting to be \u201Cexternal consultation\u201D. Well, I would ask the Minister: what is her definition of \u201Cexternal consultation\u201D, given that we have 9,000 doctors who were begging for this repeal not to happen and who wrote to the Prime Minister? Does her definition include Te H\u0101\u2014Waitaha smokefree support; Oranga H\u0101\u2014Tai Poutini: Stop Smoking West Coast; Quitline New Zealand; Quit Strong, Te Whatu Ora; Smokefree; National Public Health Service; Action for Smokefree 2025; the fono students\u2019 groups? What about Te H\u0101 Aukati Kaipaipa Stop Smoking Services? What about the iwi groups? Are they external? Do they fit into the Minister\u2019s definition? What about hap\u016B groups? What about individuals?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000938\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWhat about the chap that came up to me on a street corner in Taieri and absolutely begged me to get smoke-free laws that were workable and that would stop the next generation from smoking? Because he had been addicted all his life and he had spent vast amounts of money both on cigarettes and trying to quit and just couldn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000939\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESo these questions for the Minister speak to the type of process. We really do need answers, because, when I look at all the sections that say, \u201CNo, there is no paperwork.\u201D, and then the two parts that say, \u201Cyes\u201D\u2014one of them says \u201Cyes\u201D to external consultation. I\u2019m really struggling with the idea that going to Government agencies is considered external consultation. So I\u2019d really like to know what the Minister\u2019s definition of \u201Cexternal\u201D is, and whether those other groups that I have referred to fit the definition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u002262b2d1b151514818affe1db4ddcfe0db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262b2d1b151514818affe1db4ddcfe0db\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Green\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you for the ability to talk in this committee of the whole House stage. As other speakers have addressed, this is the first and only time that we will have to meaningfully chew through the substance and the content of this legislation. So I would really like to have a meaningful, genuine, and authentic engagement with the Minister on the substance of this legislation, given that this is the only meaningful ability that we will have as the House to scrutinise this in lieu of having a select committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000941\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo I guess, to that effect, I intend here to start a little bit broader, in drilling down into the purpose and the drivers behind this legislation, and then also to address some of the really important points about why this is occurring under urgency. Then we\u2019ll get to some specifics. But I would really appreciate it if the Minister would meaningfully engage with these points, because they\u2019re not just matters of political rhetoric. They are indeed questions that I believe the public deserves to have meaningful answers to, and, if I might add, it feels as though\u2014as other speakers have alluded to\u2014there is a sense of obfuscation and not a whole lot of clarity that the public and definitely members of Parliament have on why it is that we\u2019re doing what we\u2019re doing today, under urgency, no less.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000942\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo my first question for the Minister is a really clear one, and it is: where has this come from? I understand the technical point that this is contained within the New Zealand First and National coalition agreement, but what was the driving force behind that? I understand that at question time we\u2019ve had a bit of a back and forth about the potential engagement of industry or otherwise. But, as I said in my second reading speech, the only entities or organisations that we can meaningfully identify in the public realm who were opposed to the Government in the last term passing the legislation were the likes of New Zealand First\u2014the only party, I might add, of Government to propose that the legislation should be repealed\u2014and the tobacco industry. Notably, the tobacco industry was backing a campaign that was fronted by those dairy owners. So my first question for the Minister is a really salient and important one and goes the heart of this bill: where did this come from, who asked for it, and who was asking New Zealand First to take this into Government and to put it on the 100-day plan?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThe next question flows quite logically from that, and that is: why is this going through under urgency? Why is it necessary, because we\u2019ve had other pieces of legislation introduced in the first 100 days, but they\u2019re going through select committee processes. This bill doesn\u2019t, from what I can ascertain, need to go through this urgency process where we\u2019re going to pass it in the blink of an eye, and\u2014as I\u2019ve said before\u2014therefore, this provides us right here and now with the only opportunity to have that meaningful input with the Minister and, through the Minister, with her officials. All of us here, I think, on the Opposition benches really would have benefited from a meaningful opportunity to engage with officials on the intention, the evidence, and the purpose behind this legislation at that select committee stage. But in lieu of that, this is all we\u2019ve got. So the second question for the Minister is: why is this occurring under urgency?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000944\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EJust to unpack that a little bit more, we have heard from the Minister in many question times and also in her first and second reading speech that this is very much part and parcel of the Government\u2019s broader process and agenda here. They\u2019re taking pieces of legislation that the former Government passed, they\u2019re shredding them, and they tell us, \u201CWell, wait and see.\u201D In a few months\u2019 time, there\u2019ll be a Cabinet paper containing God knows what and we might end up with some form of replacement, but we have no meaningful ability to scrutinise what that replacement might actually be, so we revert to the status quo in the meantime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000945\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo why is it necessary for this to go through under urgency? As previous speakers have alluded to, in the departmental disclosure statement, we have here at paragraph 2.5 a point from departmental officials saying that there has not been any analysis on potential costs and benefit, yet we have it\u2014to be read contemporaneously with Official Information Act requests from Treasury and officials advising the Government\u2014that there is going to be an approximate $500 million increase in revenue. So why is it that the Minister is not allowing these changes to bed in and then\u2014I don\u2019t know\u2014potentially reviewing their efficacy, as would typically be the case? Actually, I\u2019d point the Minister to one of the clauses that we got in the legislation, which is presently being repealed, which required the Ministry of Health to review the efficacy of the legislation, which is something that I managed to get in through the Health Committee process, because these were novel, world-first measures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000946\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo my two questions to the Minister\u2014and I\u2019m really appealing to her here to engage with members of Parliament on this\u2014are: where has this come from and what was it that meant that New Zealand First picked this up and ran with it and had it so fundamentally important to them that it was not only in the coalition agreement with National for a foundation pillar of this Government but was included in the 100-day plan? More so than that, why is it that every stage of this is going through under urgency\u2014what is she afraid of?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca0c478207014b1aac0577f641064236\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000947\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca0c478207014b1aac0577f641064236\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much for the opportunity to speak during the committee of the whole House on this particular bill. A number of my colleagues have already canvassed, or, at least, with a light touch, something that I wish to delve into with respect to my particular contribution. That is clause 7, which repeals section 3AB(a) to (c) of the principal Act. Wow; where do I start? On the other side of the House, over the past 24 hours, we\u2019ve heard that there is going to be this great big empowerment of iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards so that they can have a determination over the health outcomes and aspirations of their local regions, their rohe, their papa k\u0101inga\u2014all of those places. Yet in this one fell swoop\u2014and I\u2019ll get to the question very shortly for the Minister\u2014that opportunity to be able to contribute to those health aspirations and the goals that your community might have is being stripped instantly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000948\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EBut not only is it being stripped, my challenge to the Minister is that it\u2019s being stripped from a particular group of people with this, and that is M\u0101ori. It is the iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards, which for the past 24 hours I\u2019ve heard from that side of the House are going to be this great big saviour of M\u0101ori health, because this Government is empowering them to do that. Yet in this particular bill, it\u2019s being taken away instantly, without explanation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000949\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s the question I have to the Minister: does the Minister realise that this particular move is contradictory to the bill that has just been passed in this House, ushered in by her colleague Minister Reti? Does the Minister realise that? And without the proper consultation\u2014and my colleagues have already canvassed that particular challenge to the Minister\u2014it\u2019s being taken away under urgency here in the House, without the ability for the community to speak to this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000950\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWell, in the absence of that community voice, all of the people on this side had the same question: when did the Minister meet with that particular community\u2014in this case the M\u0101ori community, in this case any of the iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards\u2014to discuss this particular matter, to advise them that regarding their rights, their ability to speak up, their ability to discuss with the Director-General of Health where tobacco can be sold within the region, etc?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000951\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister is: did she meet with iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards (IMPB)? I\u2019m not going to buy one of the arguments that I\u2019ve heard in the past 24 hours that they\u2019re yet to be established\u2014that\u2019s simply not true. Under my time as the Minister, we established 11 of them, and there were a couple more still in the pipeline.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000952\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ESo my challenge to the Minister is: has she met with an IMPB? We\u2019re going to go a step further here and ask if she has met directly with the iwi to discuss the matters with Te Tiriti o Waitangi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222aa8b812a57444f8895985185dda2fae\u0022\u003EHon Simeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Which clause?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000954\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f52ecedd418e444d88d4ca6e270917f1\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Now, Mr Simeon Brown might chirp away on that side of the Chamber in arrogant bliss of what\u2019s taking place here, but the fact of the matter is that in his electorate, Ng\u0101i Tai, or the iwi there, I\u2019m pretty sure they haven\u2019t spoken to Minister Costello about this particular bill, and that\u2019s the point that I want to make. Not only is it stripping the voices of those M\u0101ori and the M\u0101ori leadership on these matters, it does something far more fundamental than that. What it does is it actually continues, despite the words of the Prime Minister, saying that they won\u2019t support a Treaty principles bill by the ACT Party past the second reading, but the National Party are going to do it by subterfuge anyway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000955\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222accee8015d647cc9038b8f810651102\u0022\u003EAndy Foster\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s this got to do with smoking?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000956\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9fdfdd35dc14159b9ce2e968e696705\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: The Treaty of Waitangi, my friend; have a read. It\u2019s clause 7. It\u2019s repealing Te Tiriti o Waitangi in the bill, and if that member wants to get up and take a call, I encourage him to, because at the moment from that side of the Chamber it\u2019s silence. It\u2019s nothing. It\u2019s an embarrassment\u2014in fact, it\u2019s her own colleague. So the member might want to get up and help her, might want to get up and assist her to push through what we regard as a terrible bill in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000957\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ESo just to recap, in the last 50 seconds, I want to know whether or not the Minister has met with any IMPBs\u2014iwi-M\u0101ori partnership boards. Her Government has already applauded IMPBs, that they\u2019re going to be the answer to M\u0101ori health aspirations. So I want to hear it: has the Minister met with an IMPB? Stretch that further into iwi: when the Minister went and met with the iwi chairs up in Waitangi, did the Minister raise this matter with the iwi chairs not three weeks ago, and if she did, what did they say? What was their reply? Simple questions to the Minister, and we want to hear answers to enable us to interrogate this bill properly, otherwise it\u2019s going to seem like more cover-up, and that\u2019s not what we want on something so important to our community. Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u002219489ad71c5d481abc9f1221ba6d7322\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000958\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002219489ad71c5d481abc9f1221ba6d7322\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll just respond to the first questions that were received around why second-hand smoking is changed and the change in the language with regard to the amendment bill replacing the overarching purpose section of the Act. The clauses have been drafted to remove the purposes that reflected the previous Government policies regarding retail reduction, low nicotine, and smoke-free. That is the reason why that language has changed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EI will note that the matter for urgency arises from both New Zealand First and ACT\u2019s coalition agreement with National, which placed this into the 100-day plan, which is why the urgency is required.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EFinally, in terms of the amendments around the Treaty clause, this was required to be changed as a result of\u2014the section that existed was to give effect to the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi relating specifically to the retail reduction scheme, but we have retained the requirement for the Minister for Regulation relating to requirements for smoked tobacco products to consider the risks and benefits for M\u0101ori of regulating a constituent. So we have retained the requirement to consult, and we will continue to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef2e644fd9814561a6bfa09451c57e73\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000961\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef2e644fd9814561a6bfa09451c57e73\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Green\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E I want to thank the Minister for making an attempt to engage in some of those questions, but with complete and full respect\u2014because I genuinely would like to meaningfully dig into this\u2014I don\u2019t quite feel as though we got a very clear answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EWhat we had there was an outlining of the reason that this is being introduced to the House\u2014it\u2019s because it\u2019s in the coalition agreement between New Zealand First and the National Party\u2014and this is, in philosophy, known as a tautology, where we are hearing that something is occurring because it\u2019s in the plan, because it\u2019s in the plan, because it\u2019s in the plan, because it\u2019s in the plan. So I really want to lift the lid on that, and if the Minister can actually meaningfully address that question and explain to us why\u2014why is it in the plan? Not \u201CIt\u2019s in the plan, because it\u2019s in the plan.\u201D Why is it in the plan?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000963\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EBecause, as I said in my second reading speech, the only identifiable organisations that we can see that are supportive of this\u2014aside from now, obviously, the coalition Government. But, you know, when we had this going through the House supported by experts as world-leading and incredibly important as far as evidence-based policy goes, the only opposition that we heard was from the tobacco industry\u2014granted, with the astroturf sometimes of those involved in the dairy sector\u2014but also from the likes of New Zealand First.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000964\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo where is it that New Zealand First got this idea from, if not from\u2014and, again, this is not me imputing anything; the only other identifiable organisation that was in support of repealing this legislation being the tobacco industry. Where has this come from, if not from the tobacco industry? Because that\u2019s where logic takes us. So where has this come from? That answer is still not being addressed. You cannot simply refer, in a cyclical manner, to the Government\u2019s coalition agreements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000965\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThe second question also was not addressed. We heard that the reason that this is being introduced under urgency and being passed through all stages under urgency is because it\u2019s in the coalition agreement and the Government\u2019s hundred-day plan. Once again, we\u2019re back in the cyclical logic, and I really, really put it to the Minister: why is it not the case\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000966\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c56bbd32ee904846b201b781185de11e\u0022\u003EHon Simeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s called an election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000967\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022993d39c714b94770ae4ba20472637d35\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014that we could have had the opportunity for a select committee process, Mr Simeon Brown? Because if we had a select committee process, we could have heard from the experts. We could have chewed through the evidence that members of the Government are saying that they care about yet are unwilling to look at in the face.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000968\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eafb06aee7b14f35b38e1271a763e46e\u0022\u003EHon Simeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s our resident expert.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000969\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257617531000f4f4ba64fb5d655df932d\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK\u003C/span\u003E: Because the evidence tells us, Mr Simeon Brown, based on the only advice that we\u2019ve been able to get hold of\u2014which had to be obtained through an Official Information Act request because the Government wasn\u2019t particularly forthright about that\u2014is that this will increase, or rather result in a reduction in the amount of people who are smoking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000970\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo we are ending up with, instead of being on the track for a reduced number of people as a result of the plan that this Government is now repealing, more people going to be smoking than otherwise would. So perhaps that\u2019s the third question for the Minister. Is it the case that, as a result of repealing this legislation today, under urgency, more people are going to smoke than otherwise would? Because that is the logical and evidential consequence that we come to looking at all of the advice that the Minister has had in front of her.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000971\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EI come back to that key point again. There are two key questions for the Minister here. Where did this come from and why has it been put in the coalition agreement? Who is behind it? What is the driving force? And, secondly, what\u2019s the Government scared of as far as a select committee process is concerned\u2014and due procedure and Parliament going for that scrutiny, and those experts and community leaders coming forward to tell us what matters to them and whether things will meaningfully work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000972\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EBecause, again, I take the Minister to the section within the legislation which she is repealing, which requires there to be a review of the efficacy of the regulations, which is something that I pushed for at the Health Committee and got across the line at the Health Committee when we were putting these regulations through in the first place\u2014was that evidence-based review. So, if I may, I just really want to labour this point because we haven\u2019t got answers to it and this is the only opportunity that we\u2019ve got to have this scrutiny.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000973\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo I really, really implore the Minister to answer these questions. Firstly, where has this come from? Why did New Zealand First pick this up as a hobby horse that got included in the coalition agreement? Secondly, why could we not have a select committee stage? Why could we not unpack this issue in greater detail\u2014which actually could have potentially provided all the more information, data, evidence, and community input for whatever regulatory regime is going to replace this? Thirdly, are more people going to be smoking as a result of the repeal of this legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u0022e7cd01b0962546b994f6fb4b23039f9a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000974\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e7cd01b0962546b994f6fb4b23039f9a\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to echo the concerns of my colleague, Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick, in the fact that this legislation is going through under urgency before coming to some specific questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EThe New Zealand people are done a disservice by this bill being passed under urgency. We understand that sometimes urgency is needed, but certainly not in the passage of this bill where it is only seeking to deprive us of the opportunity to hear from those who might have a contrary view to the Government. One of the challenges is, without the opportunity to go into this in depth at select committee, really this is all we get in terms of hearing about what is intended by the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000976\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EI asked the Minister earlier a series of questions about the purpose, and I don\u2019t believe she has adequately answered them because what her amendment bill is changing is effectively repealing the 2022 amendment. And yet there are changes to the purpose statement that alter the interpretation of other parts of the original Act from 1990. That includes the marketing\u2014because the statement about marketing has changed\u2014and it includes the statement about smoke-free environments because of the change in language and the weakened language around second-hand smoke.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000977\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EThis question has not been answered, because that is hugely important. We take at face value the Minister\u2019s comments about wanting to keep the regime that was in place and was making such good progress. But how can we take those statements as true if the purpose of the bill, of all the other things, which\u2014like marketing and environments\u2014are being changed? This is very, very confusing and I believe she needs to set the record straight on whether this is a narrow repeal of what was done in 2022 or if a much wider change to New Zealand smoke-free legislation is actually what is intended here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EI want to go to the matter of the illicit market. Those of us who are in the Health Committee have been discussing the issues of illicit markets when it comes to pseudoephedrine, and no doubt these issues will be coming up when we talk about firearms reform in this House as well. What I want to know from the Minister is: what advice did she receive about the size of the illicit market in New Zealand? Because New Zealand has particular characteristics. The excise tax increases in New Zealand that have been successful at bringing down smoking rates means that we have some of the highest priced cigarettes in the world, and therefore you\u2019d think we would have the biggest illicit market in the world. I have heard multiple claims during this debate about the illicit market, about how the 2022 amendment would support the gangs. I want to know what reasons the Minister has for believing that they are true and what advice she received about the illicit market.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000979\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EI\u2019m also interested to know about how she assesses efforts to reduce the illicit market done through the hard-working people in the New Zealand Customs Service, and if she has any views on whether or not their initiatives, funded through Budget 2022, to reduce the import of tobacco\u2014about the effectiveness of those initiatives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000980\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003ESo, to summarise, before I resume my seat, I believe there are still outstanding questions relating to the purpose of this bill when it comes to marketing and smoke-free environments. And secondly, I have questions about the advice the Minister has received on illicit markets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022a09a89e17493492590130a1faecaa4ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000981\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a09a89e17493492590130a1faecaa4ad\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, I appreciate the West Coast loyalty. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000982\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI\u2019m going to table an amendment to Part 1\u2014it\u2019s to clause 5\u2014and the purpose is, actually, to follow through on what is a philosophical approach from this coalition Government, and that\u2019s freedom of choice. But I\u2019ll step back a little bit and give you and some of my colleagues a little a history lesson, because section 3A(i), in clause 5, refers to \u201Cthe WHO Framework Convention on Tobacco Control, done at Geneva on 21 May 2003.\u201D I was there. I was the Associate Minister of Health and I was advised by one Ashley Bloomfield. So we were in Geneva at that time working with the World Health Organization (WHO) to make progress on the very challenge that we\u2019re talking about in the committee today. I\u2019m proud of the progress that we had made, and I have to acknowledge in this Chamber Dr Rob Beaglehole who had worked at the WHO for quite some time, who was a passionate advocate\u2014and indeed still is today, along with his son\u2014on reducing the harm from tobacco use across the globe, and I have to say that a lot of their good work followed through into what we passed in 2003.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000983\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ESo it is mentioned here: the obligations to give effect to that framework. But my amendment goes one step further and adds on paragraph (j), to say, \u201Cto support personal choice by removing the addictive component of smoked tobacco products.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EWe have, as I say, a Government that\u2019s all for freedom of choice, and we, on numerous occasions, through legislation, including this bit here, are trying to\u2014and the Government claims it\u2019s trying to\u2014reduce the use of tobacco. The uptake\u2014I\u2019m not sure I buy into their views on the uptake because, actually, we know, and it\u2019s been shown, that more outlets promote more uptake and utilisation. Then the issue of addiction is the one that we grapple with across our society and indeed across the globe. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000985\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ESo you can smoke, and indeed people have smoked through the centuries, in fact, different weeds and different products. But what we have in modern products, of course, is nicotine, which is in lower concentrations in many natural products but has been concentrated up to drive addiction. Indeed, it\u2019s said that nicotine is more addictive than heroin. That is, people who use it find it harder to break away from that than they do from heroin. That\u2019s a fact. And if the Government is indeed based on evidence and facts and they say they want to reduce the rate of smoking in this country because smoking kills\u2014that\u2019s a fact. If this Government does have a conscience, if the Government does indeed want to reduce rates of smoking, then it will accept my amendment, which adds on to or builds on the 2003 conventions from the World Health Organisation, which says we want to reduce harm from tobacco smoking. And if we want to go into this further, we would then take away the addictive component of tobacco. You can do that now. You couldn\u2019t probably do that a couple of hundred years ago when people were chewing or smoking tobacco with smaller amounts of nicotine. You can do that now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000986\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ESo I call on the Government, I call on coalition parties in the Government, to honour the statements that they are making in this House to reduce rates of smoking and to take my amendment and to just add on \u201Cto support personal choice\u201D. Well, we hear a lot about that\u2014personal choice\u2014whether you own a gun, whether you want to smoke, or whether you want to drink. It comes flooding at us from the coalition Government time and time again. Well, give people personal choice, free them from addiction, and let them smoke if they want to. But the minute you have nicotine\u2014which is more addictive than heroin\u2014in tobacco that is sold to people across this country, then you have a problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000987\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ESo let\u2019s try and reduce the issues here\u2014of addiction. So I call on the Government to support my amendment in this piece of legislation, and I ask the Minister to respond.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd0ec263882643e6a8978e6385c26802\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000988\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd0ec263882643e6a8978e6385c26802\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I would first just respond to the question that\u2019s already been answered about why we\u2019re in a state of urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000989\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022741b974f90d84c508793dc002fb0cb97\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Not answered very well!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000990\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211d52322bf9941b0a534a3eae24e0d5c\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: I can accept that the question might not be acceptable, but the fact is it is in the 100-day plan, and we are working through to meet those obligations. And I would create clarity around the fact that this was in both ACT and New Zealand First\u2019s coalition\u2014so it has come from two parties in the three coalition Government and that\u2019s why we are moving it through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000991\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EI think the final question, \u201CIs it the case more people will smoke?\u201D, I would refer to the purpose of the legislation which is in the clause summary as to what our objectives are and the purpose of this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000992\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EI\u2019m not sure where it fits within Part 1, but in terms of the illicit market and what advice we have received, the member has clarified the position around the investment that was made in driving down the illicit tobacco market, which was the $10 million introduced in 2022. The advice I\u2019ve received around the illicit market is from Customs, and it continues to be a concern and that money is continuing to be invested. But I\u2019d note that this illicit market existed at a time when none of these measures that we\u2019re talking about were in place, and, therefore, it would be hard to quantify what the illicit market would look like if these measures, which we were now repealing, had been implemented. And finally, just in terms of the final comment from the member, \u201CWe know more outlets create greater uptake\u201D, I would suggest that that is contrary to our evidence we\u2019re sitting with at the moment given that we have seen a massive reduction with the same amount of outlets that we\u2019ve got currently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022b12d3c231aba4f1cb1384d7020368626\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000993\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b12d3c231aba4f1cb1384d7020368626\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m acknowledging that I\u2019m going to ask a series of questions that would have been canvassed at the select committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000994\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI want to start by first of all asking if a child impact assessment was done on this bill, particularly because we know that there is concern around the harm tobacco can cause in children, and particularly if people start smoking at a younger age, those harms can compound. So I\u2019m interested to know whether a child impact assessment report was done as part of the process of this bill, and, if not, I\u2019m really interested to understand why that wasn\u2019t the case, because that is a tool that exists to further assess the impacts of policy on children. It is a tool that the Greens, at least, encourage legislators to use when it comes to the production of bills. So if the Associate Minister didn\u2019t think that that was worth doing, I\u2019m keen to get a sense as to why. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000995\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThe other one is in relationship to looking at the departmental disclosure statement, the list of agencies that were consulted. It\u2019s pretty extensive, but I\u2019m really keen to get a sense of the feedback and actually would invite the Minister to potentially table some of those papers in relationship to the external consultation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000996\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EBut I\u2019m interested particularly in what feedback was given from the Ministry of Social Development in terms of the impacts that the greater harm that could come from tobacco use would mean for people who are already on low incomes. I\u2019m interested to get a sense of feedback around the Ministry of Education. So what feedback was given in that external consultation in relationship to potential changes of tobacco use in schools?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000997\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EAlso, I\u2019ve noted that the Ministry for Ethnic Communities was consulted, and that ministry can provide a really important second opinion on a range of policy issues. I\u2019m keen to get a sense of if there was feedback given around how the policy could impact different ethnic groups, because we know that substance use can manifest in different ways in different communities and therefore the interventions for harm minimisation could look quite different, depending on the different groups. Equally, I did note that Whaikaha - Ministry of Disabled People was consulted and keen again to get that intersectional lens around what feedback was given in terms of the impact on disabled people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000998\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThe reason why I\u2019m asking for those agencies in particular is that we know that the harm of tobacco, again, compounds when it comes to communities who are already living week to week. The health impacts of tobacco mean that people who already have the least may struggle to access the health services that they need to address some of that harm, and so that\u2019s why I\u2019m focusing on those agencies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79000999\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EBut if the Minister would like to illustrate more broadly or to table documents around the feedback that was given by those agencies, that would help inform the debate\u2014right?\u2014because if the feedback from those agencies was encouraging and positive as to what she wants to do, then I think the public deserves to know that. If there were concerns from those agencies, actually we would invite a more robust debate, because that doesn\u2019t even have anything to do with the use of urgency, which we oppose. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001000\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EBut I think we deserve and the public deserves to get a good robust understanding of the feedback that was given as part of that external consultation, because we know it happened, even with the use of urgency, and so we are keen to get an analysis as to not just the feedback but, I guess, the extent of the process to which that feedback happened. Again, I think this is something that we would have been able to canvass within a select committee process, but otherwise I think it\u2019s pretty fair to ask whether a child impact assessment was done and for the feedback that was given as part of that consultation. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u002294cc5d061dc147dea457b82cb42f9ac6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002294cc5d061dc147dea457b82cb42f9ac6\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I would like to ask the Minister some follow-up questions on the statement that she made about the number of outlets that are in an area and the proposal to scrap Subpart 1 of Part 1B, in clause 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI have an amendment which relates to this on the Table where I am suggesting that that doesn\u2019t happen, because my understanding is that those outlets that are there and the number of them is actually a temptation, is causing an issue, and that the Minister needs to work on an evidence basis on this. What I\u2019ve heard from her today is she simply doesn\u2019t consider that is an issue because this hasn\u2019t happened yet, so how would we tell?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ENow, my understanding is that there will be psychological expertise around the nature of this kind of availability. I remember that when we passed a law many years ago now in New Zealand to stop people having the availability of tobacco and smoking in our restaurants and our cafes, there was a lot of scepticism, and then we saw the effect of that not only in those places but on our culture. We saw a dramatic difference in our culture from here and in somewhere like Paris, and, quite frankly, less people died.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI changed my attitude to smoking at that point and I saw a harm I hadn\u2019t seen before. So when we have 6,000 outlets which are unregulated, selling these products, they are very likely having an effect on our psychology at the very least\u2014and the psychology of our children who are walking past those outlets all the time, because we had normalised that behaviour. So I wanted to know whether the Minister had sought advice, or would seek advice, over the impact of the number and availability of those outlets and would consider, while she waits for that advice, not changing the law here, because this itself could be an experiment. This could be a chance to see what happens when you reduce the number of outlets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ENow, one of the things that Part 1B does very effectively\u2014and I\u2019ve heard the former Minister who brought in this legislation talk about her rationale at a public meeting in my electorate recently\u2014is it regulates who has that product to sell for the first time. Now, I am concerned about the availability to children in those places where people are selling. We know very little about how many people and who are selling these things, and there is no regulation of who is selling those products, so how could we possibly expect that everybody is complying with the requirements of the law in this regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ESo this Part 1B is actually all about regulating that industry. It has things like a fine if you apply and you are misleading and deceiving. It\u2019s a whole thoughtful, mindful process about who is selling, as well as a reduction in the numbers of those who are selling. I would like the Minister to tell me how she can be so confident that those people are not breaking the rules and whether she has asked anybody about that, because I have an area in my electorate, which is Point Chevallier, and it has several schools in it. It has issues. There is alcohol, there is vaping, and people are really concerned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EThese are genuine concerns of genuine communities. We already have major concerns about vaping, and now what we seem to be doing is regulating vaping a little bit more with regard to those things\u2014maybe too tentatively\u2014but we are not regulating cigarettes in the same way. So I\u2019m also concerned, Minister, whether you have considered or had any advice about what the effect might be on strengthening your regulation around vaping while actually liberalising the access to selling and the access to cigarettes in your community, because that, it seems, is what we\u2019re doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022038478ccab864707aa28f4c6a970f8c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022038478ccab864707aa28f4c6a970f8c2\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you for that smile as well. I want to traverse\u2014hopefully I\u2019ll get to three points in this contribution; three questions that I\u2019ll get to: one about urgency, one about the purpose and the changes to the purpose from various different versions of the principal Act, and one about a tabled amendment in my name.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EFirstly, on the urgency, I know the Minister says that she has answered this question a number of times and it is because of an election and a 100-day plan. But that is not good enough. Because what we are doing here is we\u2019re not just using urgency to have a bill introduced and then go to first reading and then maybe even a quick select committee process. No, no, no. What we are having here is a bill that we only saw yesterday and that we are now debating in all-stages urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EAn all-stages urgency is very different from using a bit of urgency here and there to progress a bill at pace. Obviously, there are a lot of sitting days in that 100 days and there would have been ample opportunity for the Government to be true to all their policy decisions\u2014which, of course, I think are terrible but I\u2019m commenting here on the process. Their terrible policy decisions around environment, around labour laws, around health could all have been introduced, had a first reading, gone off to select committees, and come back for the second reading and committee stage and not be using this all-stages urgency process. This is just the worst lawmaking process that is possible really anywhere in the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022115bc6b67ca447f89262fffc3af5b41b\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: No, you took that prize.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc39024f32a64a60b5f820db14ba2b28\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: So I would like the Minister to make all stages\u2014and now the members on the other side are saying, \u201COh, you did it.\u201D I note, again, that the use of urgency is different from the use of all-stages urgency. There\u2019s an important difference there because there is no time for scrutiny.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ENow I\u2019m going to move on to one of these issues about scrutiny, and this is in clause 5, which says that section 3A is replaced. Section 3A is the purpose of the Act or the purposes of the Act. We\u2019ve heard the Minister say that what we\u2019re doing in this piece of legislation is going back to exactly what was in place before the last Government\u2019s amendments in 2022. But, in fact, there are some differences. If you look at section 3A, the purposes, in clause 5, the new purposes of this Act compared with a version before those 2022 amendments, there are some changes. Maybe they are small, but I don\u2019t know why they are there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo, for instance, the numbering is different, and at paragraphs (c) and (d) there\u2019s the new (c)\u2014I think from my looking at it\u2014\u201Cto reduce the appeal of regulated products to children and young people; and, (d) to minimise harm from regulated products, in particular to children and young people;\u201D and so it goes. Then the rest is the same, but then there is a difference in wording at (g), which is \u201Cto regulate the safety of regulated products;\u201D. Previously, it was to regulate the safety of vaping products and smokeless tobacco products. I don\u2019t know the reason for that change\u2014the Minister could comment on that. At (h), there is \u201Cto monitor and regulate the presence of the constituents of regulated products and their emissions;\u201D. So the word \u201Charmful\u201D was there after the \u201Cpresence\u201D. So it did read \u201Cthe presence of harmful constituents of regulated products and their emissions\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThere may be a great policy reason for this change, but I don\u2019t know it and this is the only time we get to scrutinise this bill. That takes quite a little bit of time, going back and forward between different versions of the of the bills and of the Act quickly. But I would like to spend more time on those changes of the purposes, and I just note the additions of \u201Cto reduce the appeal of regulated products to children and young people;\u201D and \u201Cto minimise harm from regulated products, in particular to children and young people;\u201D. These are both similar to what the wording was in the 2022 change, but is different from the primary legislation before that 2022 change. Related to that is my tabled amendment and that asks\u2014[Bell rung] Madam Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f26b0299d8b4e4abb84f91ef397054e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Rachel Brooking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb5f7351518f482c89dc50bac58271cd\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. So going to my tabled amendment\u2014noting that these parts of the purpose relate to children and young people, and I think that seems to be a good policy decision; I\u2019m sure nobody in the committee would question it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo what this amendment does is to introduce, after clause 9, a new clause 9A and insert a new section 20OA into the legislation. That part of the legislation is around the regulation of tobacco. So what this is is to add in section 20OA, \u201CProximity of tobacco retailers to schools\u201D, and that is that the director-general must ensure, when granting a person approval to be an approved smoked tobacco retailer, that any premises is not within 1 kilometre of a school. Obviously, the intention of that amendment is to support what we have in the purposes of the Act as amended by this bill and, as in fact, the purposes of the Act and the amendments from 2022, but not, as I said before, in the original piece of legislation pre its 2022 amendments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m very interested if the Minister can tell us about why she\u2019s kept in those two\u2014paragraphs (c) and (d) in the bill\u2014provisions around children in the purpose, and, hopefully, we will all be in agreement about why she\u2019s doing that. But then also could she comment on why it would be useful to have my tabled amendment\u2014there\u2019s probably some other similar tabled amendments as well\u2014about actually giving effect to that purpose, which is to reduce the appeal of regulated products to children and young people and to minimise harm from regulated products, in particular to children and young people. Obviously, if you cannot have premises near a school, that is a good way of achieving that purpose. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u0022b6894358251c4dbe93d15d7287c332df\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b6894358251c4dbe93d15d7287c332df\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I think it\u2019s important just to reiterate here that the bill we\u2019re discussing is not undoing anything that\u2019s currently in place. So we are looking to change the legislation, but none of these measures are actually implemented as of yet, so I think we need to work forward from that position. So that refers to the driving down demand, I think, question that was raised. I think that that\u2019s why we keep going back to the statistics: we have driven down demand significantly with what\u2019s in place and our young smokers have been a significant reduction\u2014down to just 19,000 young smokers now\u2014so we will continue to work on those aspects that are working.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EI think I\u2019ll just respond to the clarifying about exactly the purpose being exactly the same as previously. I think, just to clarify, the previous purpose statement reflected the previous Government\u2019s policies regarding the regulation of smoked tobacco. This included a purpose that was intended to reflect the equity focus of those policies. Because these policies have been removed from the Act, the purpose statement was revised to reflect the substance of what remains in the Act. For this reason, the new purpose statement largely reflects the purpose statement that was in the Act before the previous amendments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022 data-id=\u00224291ded588cf4d5b8c190e137b9df10a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224291ded588cf4d5b8c190e137b9df10a\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I have some focus questions and I\u2019m wanting to examine, with the Associate Minister of Health the Hon Casey Costello, clause 5, amending the purpose of the Act, noting that there\u2019s a removal of the purpose to reduce disparities in smoking rates and illness between the New Zealand population and the M\u0101ori population. And it really perplexes me, as a M\u0101ori who is heavily impacted by smoking, why we remove a piece of the legislation that actually provides focus\u2014it provides focus for our policy makers and then for those who will procure services to meet these new legislative guidelines. So I want to unpack that a little bit, and query with the Minister: did she consider the 2011 M\u0101ori Affairs Committee inquiry into the tobacco industry and the impacts of tobacco on M\u0101ori? Did she consider that, in preparing this legislation? And did she have any other evidence or reports, in terms of the M\u0101ori health impact, that informed what the Minister has put forward to the committee tonight?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EFurther, wanting to dig into Te Tiriti compliance, were there any Te Tiriti audits conducted on this repeal, or have you had any advice, whether it\u2019s from Crown officials or legal advisers, in terms of whether this repeal is Te Tiriti compliant? And who prepared that advice for you? So I\u2019m really keen to understand the \u201Cwho\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EIn progressing some of what my colleague Peeni Henare has shared in the House, I\u2019m interested to understand any consultation that the Minister has undertaken with te iwi M\u0101ori on the repeal of this legislation, of our smoke-free environments legislation. In particular, just considering, you know, the diverse expertise that exists within the M\u0101ori health sector and M\u0101ori organisations, on top of te iwi M\u0101ori, was there any advice taken or received? Sometimes you may not have taken the advice, but it was received by your office. Can you share with the committee any concerns that you may have received from M\u0101ori health experts, advocates, or others through your office?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EIn closing, thinking about, you know, iwi M\u0101ori engagement, as members of te Iwi o Ng\u0101tiwai, Minister, I noted on Facebook today that te Poari o Ng\u0101tiwai, our Iwi Trust Board, made a post to remind the Minister of Health, Dr Shane Reti, that on 14 December a letter was furnished to the Minister outlining concerns around the smoke-free environments repeal to come. There\u2019s been no response received. But I believe another invitation is being extended to both Minister Reti and Minister Costello to attend a hui-\u0101-iwi with the people of Ng\u0101tiwai to discuss your plans and how you intend to protect M\u0101ori health outcomes and improve those outcomes for te Iwi o Ng\u0101tiwai and M\u0101ori people in general. I look forward to your responses, kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022 data-id=\u002239e2c4ce5fb14d8da70cf9fe8b7c1707\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239e2c4ce5fb14d8da70cf9fe8b7c1707\u0022\u003ETAKUTAI TARSH KEMP (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014T\u0101maki Makaurau):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Chair. I want to take this opportunity, as the first time being able to k\u014Drero about such a sad day for M\u0101ori, for te ao M\u0101ori, today\u2014knowing that we are in urgency and it\u2019s the only opportunity that we get to have to ask questions to the Associate Minister of Health the Hon Casey Costello and to the Government. I want to let the Minister know that our people are weeping today\u2014that we haven\u2019t had the opportunity to k\u014Drero, to w\u0101nanga, to share time, to be able to reflect on the impact that these amendments to the legislation will have on our people. And our people want to ensure that their voices are being heard. And here, those of us in Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori and Te P\u0101ti K\u0101k\u0101riki and in Labour are those voices for our people. So it\u2019s only right that we get the opportunity to have a k\u014Drero about the bill in its entirety.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022\u003EI want to provide some background. I was part of the\u2014it was called MEEG, the M\u0101ori Expert Advisory Group, that actually wrote the alternative paper for the establishment of the M\u0101ori Health Authority, which was then named Te Aka Whai Ora. I want to mihi to the experts that were on that panel\u2014in particular, Sharon Shea, who was the chair who fought hard to ensure that we did establish the M\u0101ori Health Authority and Te Aka Whai Ora. Today, I mihi to the panel and to that r\u014Dp\u016B that fought hard for that. Why are we talking about that? Because it\u2019s all interrelated. The falling of Te Aka Whai Ora, the amendments to the legislation\u2014it\u2019s all impacting on M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022\u003EI also want to share that when I was the CEO for Te Kaha o te Rangatahi in Manurewa, we held a smoke-free contract. So I managed a smoke-free team. We fought very, very hard to ensure that we reduced outlets that were selling cigarettes, tobacco, and vapes in our community. Why? Because it was about our mokopuna. It was the best decision for our tamariki. They were walking past outlets, like, all the way that they were going to school. If you don\u2019t know Manurewa well, Manurewa has\u2014on Great South Road, it\u2019s a strip of shops like 250 metres long. Every second shop sold cigarettes. As a M\u0101ori health provider, working alongside H\u0101pai te Hauora, working alongside the Cancer Society, we fought hard to ensure that those outlets reduced the selling of cigarettes\u2014by closing down or they made different choices.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022\u003ECan I say, there was a product\u2014I don\u2019t know what you\u2019d call it, but it was called a \u201Ckiller combo\u201D. Our kids were going to school every morning, stopping at the local dairy to buy a killer combo. A killer combo was a pie, a coke, and a cigarette\u2014all for $5. And we wanted to stop that. But this bill will ensure that outlets can continue to do that. You know, in our communities, they\u2019re not just selling packets of cigarettes; they\u2019re selling single cigarettes\u2014alongside vaping mechanisms. That is the truth and the reality of the community that we\u2019re in. Our providers, M\u0101ori health providers, work hard to reduce that. We want our mokopuna to live. We want a better generation and a better future for our wh\u0101nau, for our mokopuna. So we have to stand up and continue to fight and to raise our voices.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022\u003EI have a question for you. Both bills that we\u2019ve had for M\u0101ori over the last two days all talk about the iwi M\u0101ori partnership boards. What we never heard in that k\u014Drero was an urban M\u0101ori voice. In T\u0101maki-makau-rau, there are 250,000 M\u0101ori, 80 percent of them do not belong to the iwi in T\u0101maki-makau-rau. We are an urban population and their voice is missing. My question is: how will the Minister ensure that the urban M\u0101ori voice will be heard and will be at the decision-making table alongside iwi M\u0101ori? My other question is: how will the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebc05b4b3e8245d1a2806f0d92d571bb\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022 data-id=\u002247a801d013fc4fe5a3c018490e397361\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247a801d013fc4fe5a3c018490e397361\u0022\u003ECUSHLA TANGAERE-MANUEL (Labour\u2014Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Chair. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa o t\u0113nei taha e whawhai ana m\u014D te tika o ng\u0101 t\u0101ngata i roto i t\u0113nei \u0101huatanga.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003E[Greetings to us all on this side who are fighting for the welfare of all peoples in this situation.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EI have an amendment to be inserted after clause 9, and that is new clause 9C which inserts new section 20OC and that is that \u201CThe Director-General must ensure, when granting a person approval to be an approved smoked tobacco retailer, that any premises is not within one km of a marae\u201D, a kaupapa that follows on quite nicely from the previous speaker, Takutai Tarsh Kemp.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EI am proud to be a marae girl, born and raised, and I\u2019m definitely more proud to say that while smoking, of course, was present, it is not what defines my memories of being raised on a marae. I also love that when you ask someone, \u201CGot a light?\u201D, the answer is usually \u201CNo.\u201D these days, and that can be largely attributed to the fact that marae, of their own volition, made their premises smoke-free to protect their whakapapa and our mokopuna. Marae are a physical depiction of the tinana\u2014of the person, of the body\u2014te mana, te tapu o te tangata, an argument which, sadly, I have not heard coming from that side of the House. We\u2019ve not heard the value of mana tangata, the value of life. Another reason for this proposed amendment is, obviously, the common-sense one, that our tamariki, mokopuna are not exposed and do not easily have access to tobacco.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EAs a culture, we\u2019re still recovering from so much. We\u2019re still recovering our reo, and, as such, our marae are already vulnerable. Our paepae are struggling. We\u2019re very limited with speakers who have the oratory capacity. This bill makes us even more vulnerable, not only culturally but physically. We all know the impacts of smoking on our health, and it\u2019s such a shame that in a time that we know better, we\u2019re not doing better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003ESpeaking of our paepae, I think of all the people we have lost. This morning, I did an interview on Radio Ngati Porou, and I couldn\u2019t help but reflect back to a wahine whose daughter I went to school with, July Minnell. July Minnell was cut down in her prime and is a loss not only to Ngati Porou but to her daughter, who I had to watch go through school without her mother. July\u2019s legacy was one that certainly influenced my decision not to take up cigarette smoking, but she had to die to leave that legacy, and we know that. People over there are acknowledging it, and yet here we are today still promoting this kaupapa. How many more people have to die before we are all influenced by their legacy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003ENow, marae have made their decision to protect whakapapa on their land, in their buildings. The least we can do is respect that by guaranteeing that retailers will not be allowed to sell this paitini, to peddle this poison, to our tamariki, to our wh\u0101nau, our hap\u016B, and our iwi in such close proximity to an already vulnerable institution of te ao M\u0101ori. Therefore, I ask the question: can you guarantee that when granting a person approval to be an approved smoked tobacco retailer that any premises is not within 1 kilometre of a marae?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u00224e1d5b55483e466795edd80754a165d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e1d5b55483e466795edd80754a165d9\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I\u2019d like to take the opportunity to actually make a submission today on behalf of a local group of young anti-smoking activists who are incredibly disappointed that there is no select committee process to enable them to come and have their voices heard. This young group are known as the Hashtags, and they reside in Wainui\u014Dmata. They have seen firsthand the harm that smoking does to their community, and they have taken action and they have been incredibly powerful and successful in their past actions. The Hashtags were the core group that had a petition and lobbied Government to ban smoking in cars, and they were successful in that legislation being passed. But they did not stop there. They continued by making sure that there would be further restrictions placed on vaping, because they saw the harms within their community. They have been strong, staunch advocates who have repeatedly come to Parliament and submitted to our select committees, and it is a travesty that young people who are directly impacted by this legislation\u2014these young people would have grown up in a smoke-free New Zealand. This bill stops them from growing up in a smoke-free New Zealand, and this House stops them from having their voice heard when it directly impacts upon their wellbeing and their livelihoods, and I find that despicable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to read out their submission; it\u2019s come in tonight, so I would like to share that with you tonight. I\u2019d like the Associate Minister of Health to hear this, and maybe the Minister might like to answer some of the questions that the Hashtags have asked. So, \u201CSmokefree 2025 is the National Government goal that Labour Government helped lead by listening to the voices of their communities, particularly the rangatahi led by the Hashtags. The Hashtag acronym explains their eternal health goal for wh\u0101nau, which is Holistic Action Sustainable Health Through All Generations\u201D. Under the smokefree amendment Act, this is one of the multiple Acts that ensures the health and wellbeing of our future. Our question is: how can the Government justify your actions by repealing your own goal? As stated by P\u014Dtatau Clarke, choose the right. Wrong decisions can never be right, and right decisions can never be wrong. On behalf of the Hashtags and rangatahi, we now urgently challenge the Government to stop smoke-free legislation repeal. This Government has disempowered all the smoke-free advocacy that has taken years of hard work from hundreds of people. Aotearoa led the world in tobacco legislation and policies, which is all about saving lives and protecting our future generations. The Hashtags now plead for the Government to do what they must, do the right thing, and not replace the dollars for the health and wellbeing of our future.\u201D Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u002250b65bc37f30468a98230b0f6668eeb3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250b65bc37f30468a98230b0f6668eeb3\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I just think it\u2019s worth going back again to reiterate that we are talking about Part 1 and we\u2019re talking about the range of repeals that remove the retail reduction, so the refocus on that is the target here. I would remind and reiterate that we are retaining the requirement to consider the impact on M\u0101ori in regulating a constituent, including to both users and non-users of smoked tobacco products, so we are continuing to ensure that that is addressed. I think that we are needing to kind of consider that when you talk about single cigarette sales etc., those are the unfortunate flags of the black market, which are imported as single cigarette quantities, and that\u2019s what we\u2019re hoping to ensure that we can control moving forward. We are going to be focusing on building on the great work that has been highlighted, and we will continue to do so as we move forward, as I\u2019ve previously noted in the recommendations of the next steps.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022 data-id=\u00222cdd569868464320bd95cb6761fb394c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222cdd569868464320bd95cb6761fb394c\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. As it\u2019s my first opportunity to take this call, I appreciate the opportunity, because we don\u2019t have the benefit of the select committee process. I\u2019ve been appreciating the depth of discussion and/or questioning that\u2019s come from this side of the Chamber, and I\u2019ve been equally frustrated by the lack of response that\u2019s come from the Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EI would particularly like to ask the Minister in relation to clause 12, the repeal of nicotine limits. Clause 12 repeals section 57I of the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Act. That section limited the content of nicotine in tobacco products to 0.8 milligrams. As the member over here mentioned, we know\u2014the evidence is clear\u2014that nicotine is more addictive than heroin. So what we\u2019re seeing in this change is a reduction of the limits on nicotine in cigarettes, which is just beyond belief that anyone could consider doing such a thing. We know what nicotine does: it kills people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003ENow, this is something that I think everyone in this committee knows about. I know, when I was a young person, way, way, way, way back in the 1970s, we had candy cigarettes, which encouraged people to think about smoking. With my friends, we often used to pinch cigarettes from\u2014well, my friend used to pinch cigarettes from his parents, because they smoked packets a day and they didn\u2019t notice them. Of course, we tried to smoke, but, fortunately, it didn\u2019t take with me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EBut my best friend\u2019s mother and father both smoked. Their father died of cancer. It began on his lips and went further. That was a horrible death, but what was worse was his mother, who wanted to stay at home. She was looked after by their youngest daughter\u2014also a friend of mine\u2014and that was a really painful experience in our village, because she was in a great deal of pain and she wouldn\u2019t take any medicine for it, and her last days were heard by people all around the village. She died a horrible death because of cancer, caused by smoking cigarettes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019ve seen what can happen\u2014we know this stuff. This is not new to anyone. It\u2019s not new, and yet, here we are, removing any controls. So I\u2019ve got a couple of questions, and I would like to come back later for some more. But I\u2019ve got a couple of questions here for the Minister that I would really like an authentic and deep response to, rather than a once over, just fly past. What impact is the removal of nicotine limits expected to have on rates of quitting smoking? What other options did officials provide to her? And why did she choose this option? Has she received any data or evidence on the impacts that removing this nicotine limit will have on the addictiveness of cigarettes or the length of time people will spend smoking? I\u2019ve got a very close relative who has smoked since he was a teenager. He\u2019s now in his mid-60s and he keeps on trying to give up, and he can\u2019t. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EClause 12 repeals section 57I, which provides limits on nicotine for smoked tobacco products. Did she receive any specific advice or modelling about the impact of repealing this clause on the uptake of smoking? And if so, what was the nature of this advice?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003ENow, I must say, I am an optimist. As an optimist, I frequently deal with disappointment, but I do not want the Minister to disappoint me. I would like some answers, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc60f4c262384fd9ab54dd5f8659c021\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc60f4c262384fd9ab54dd5f8659c021\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you very much. I want to thank my colleague Scott Willis for his contribution on a very important part of the 2022 amendment that is now proposed for repeal, which relates to denicotinisation of cigarettes. Denicotinisation takes that most addictive product known to man\u2014nicotine\u2014out of cigarettes, so that people can take control of the effect that this product has on them, and many, many people successfully quit when cigarettes are denicotinised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EThe evidence presented at select committee in the hearings for the 2022 amendment on this were compelling. New Zealand is lucky to have one of the lead clinical trialists of denicotinised cigarettes at the University of Auckland, so compelling presentations were made on that. Being a man of science, one of the people who was most influenced by those presentations was the now health Minister, Dr Shane Reti, and he made a number of contributions in this House on the importance of the proposals around denicotinisation. In fact, he moved amendments that the bill should remove the retail components but focus on denicotinisation because it was so impactful. Indeed, there\u2019s widespread support from other members of the Government, including, I believe, a Christchurch GP on the National backbench, who expressed support for that proposal on social media.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003ESo I think understanding the Minister\u2019s advice on denicotinisation is particularly important. In particular, I\u2019d like to know what conversations she\u2019s had with Dr Reti about denicotinisation, because I am aware of his comments on radio that he sees his role as not making the decisions on smoke-free but supporting the Minister\u2014his Associate Minister\u2014with advice. So I\u2019m very interested to know about those conversations. What did Dr Reti say to the Minister about denicotinisation? Were any avenues for preserving denicotinisation in the Act explored between the two Ministers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EYou\u2019ll note that there is an amendment on the Table that brings back the denicotinisation proposals into the bill. I hope all members of the House\u2014given the previously expressed support of the now health Minister Shane Reti for this initiative\u2014will consider it. It would be very strange indeed if a party that supported that approach immediately before the election was now voting that approach down. That would be quite shameful and show a lack of respect for their health Minister, Dr Reti. So I\u2019m very interested to hear about what advice Dr Reti has given the Minister on these proposals, including those about denicotinisation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u0022d0f875af56d248bd9d31d6d17ac6941d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d0f875af56d248bd9d31d6d17ac6941d\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I just think, to quickly, again, reiterate\u2014and I\u2019m sorry to harp on\u2014but the whole purpose of this legislation is to repeal the reduced retailers and the denicotinisation and the removal of the ban on persons born after 1 January 2009, so we\u2019re revisiting these components. I would like to comment on and reinforce that we fully understand the issues of harm and, therefore, we are going to continue to work on those initiatives, as I\u2019ve repeatedly said. The denicotinisation is a tool. As we\u2019ve referenced previously, those tools will be looked at as quit-smoking options, which is what we are going to be looking into as the next phase after this bill is replaced. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002290b3ebd21b5a4ea0bfbb2c3bf3c66506\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002290b3ebd21b5a4ea0bfbb2c3bf3c66506\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the time has come for the dinner break. We will resume again at 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 5.59 p.m. to 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022f389ee04c978481da74dcfa84593ca97\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f389ee04c978481da74dcfa84593ca97\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The House is resumed. Just before I start, once again I\u2019ll remind members the way that the House has agreed to run the committee of the whole House is that if a member indicates that he or she has a series of questions, then the Chair will give that preference to exhaust two or three questions. It does require the Minister, of course, to be in a position to answer those questions one after the other. It\u2019s not always possible, and members are welcome to go their five minutes. However, it is designed to ensure that as we go through the process, we are doing what we\u2019re here to do: extract the answers from the Minister in the chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u00228dcc634ed1ba455fa08b766e7bcc0d52\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228dcc634ed1ba455fa08b766e7bcc0d52\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chairman. There\u2019s one question I have here: who wrote this bill? I want to refer to the second part of the amendment that I have tabled here. The second part refers to clause 12. Previous speakers have rightfully pointed to what I believe is probably close to the most harmful provision in this piece of legislation, and that is removing the limits on nicotine for smoked tobacco products. My amendment proposes to change the bill to put back in place a limit on nicotine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI was Associate Minister of Health, and, indeed, I was the Minister at the time we took smoking out of bars. I\u2019m proud of doing that, and I\u2019m proud of the fact that there are no bars where smoking takes place now. That, I\u2019m sure, has contributed to the reduction in smoking. I contest the Minister\u2019s view that the number of outlets does not affect the uptake of tobacco. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ECan I move forward\u2014because I know I\u2019ve had a speech on that particular issue. This is at the heart: in every area of alcohol, we have limits and we have different steps. In gambling, we have limits on the time that poker machines can return to zero. That is, that the cycle time affects the addiction of all of these things. The higher the nicotine level, the more addiction. As was said, nicotine is more addictive than heroin, so it is critical that we reinsert a maximum level of nicotine. Otherwise, we will have health and addiction problems. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThen a question I have of the Minister\u2014as well as who wrote it\u2014is: why is there no limit, given that we have limits in pretty much every other area of food consumption, of human consumption, and of anything and there should be one here?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe health issues have been well traversed, but there are economic issues here that play out in a way that people haven\u2019t considered. In Farmers Weekly last week, there was a story on the value of soft power. In fact, what it said was \u201CExporters urged to go hard on soft power.\u201D We are an exporting nation. The coalition Government makes a lot of noise about trying to double exports, they say\u2014that\u2019s the old hat approach\u2014and grow the wealth of this country. What exporters are being told in a farming magazine is that they have to focus on soft power. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EWhat is soft power? Well, the presenter of this to that thing said that New Zealand is \u201Cbeing perceived as a collectivist and progressive country that acts on behalf of the greater good when leadership is called for.\u201D We know that with this retraction of the legislation\u2014this progressive legislation that had been passed by the previous Government\u2014already around the world, people are shocked at what we are doing. The question I have is: has the Minister done an assessment of the effect on our international reputation, \u00E0 la soft power, from changing this legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EIn fact, the provisions under clause 12\u2014which my amendment refers to\u2014remove any measurement, assessment, or limitation on the level of nicotine in tobacco. I\u2019m sure that doesn\u2019t occur in any country\u2014other than the developing countries perhaps, but probably even there they would have a limit on it. That has been taken away. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a picture in people\u2019s minds \u201Cthinking that we have humanity, a collectivist approach, are creative and kind, values that are kind of lacking in the rest of the world at the moment.\u201D We had, through a number of unfortunate incidents but strong leadership, built up a reputation for being progressive, for taking on board the values and the aspirations of humanity. This bill that will kill more people is a reversal of that direction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe farmers and the other exporters who are thinking, \u201CThis is just about health, because I don\u2019t smoke.\u201D, this will affect them as well. Our ability to sell and our reputation at the international markets will be degraded by passing this legislation that will increase the number of people smoking and taking up tobacco and will have unlimited levels of nicotine and products that will drive addiction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022057fdaa4b00049c6a855f18ea3e508e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022057fdaa4b00049c6a855f18ea3e508e9\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I do have a series of questions. Just looking at one of them\u2014well, a series that relates to reputational damage; the other one is consistency with the coalition agreement, and then just around the Treaty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI wanted to pick up on a journalistic piece by Guyon Espiner from RNZ, who talked about Ministry of Health documents that were sent to the Associate Minister of Health, in which those papers talked about the risk to reputational damage that we could potentially face, particularly because of legislation that the UK and the US are pursuing. So I\u2019m really interested, first, in\u2014because I note that in the departmental disclosure statement, one of the other entities that was consulted\u2014and I did ask about the Ministry of Social Development, education, and Whaikaha, particularly in reputational damage, which I haven\u2019t asked yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI\u2019m keen to understand if, in the external consultation with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade, or any other entity, there had been feedback about the risk of reputational damage to New Zealand\u2014or even trade impacts, for example\u2014as a result of this piece of legislation. I\u2019m particularly, as I\u2019ve indicated in my previous contributions, keen to see if the Minister would be willing to table some of that advice or, for example, to table the papers that were obtained by RNZ. Again, normally we would have access to those papers as a result of select committee processes. While I don\u2019t agree, I can accept that urgency works in the way that it does, in the sense of the time frames that we\u2019re working with. But I don\u2019t see the need for the Minister to lower the robustness of the evidence and information that we have available to carry on this debate. So I would invite the Minister to table those papers from Health New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019m interested as well in picking up the consistency with other agreements in the coalition. The reason for that is that the reason that the Minister has given us, constantly, and the members of the Government side have alluded to, when we ask the Minister why is this bill going forward, is that it\u2019s in the coalition agreement. But in the coalition agreement, there\u2019s also stuff in relationship to using the best available data and evidence. The best available data and evidence that we have actually suggest that there will be harm that will come as a result of this bill, and so I\u2019m keen to understand whether there has been any work done around making sure that this bill is actually compliant with the coalition agreement, because if this Government is taking this coalition agreement seriously, and it\u2019s using it as an excuse to pass bills under legislation, I would hope that the bit about data and evidence isn\u2019t just lip service and that actually robust work is being done with this piece of legislation, to ensure that it actually matches this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EIn the article from RNZ, from Guyon Espiner, the Minister talked about\u2014well, sent a statement, basically, just disagreeing with the\u2014she said, \u201CI do not accept what Health officials have said about our Treaty of Waitangi obligations, but it\u2019s not appropriate to talk further about that while the claim is before the [Waitangi] Tribunal.\u201D I mean, sure, she may not agree with that, but I\u2019m keen to get a sense of the engagement she would have had in relationship to the Waitangi Tribunal. In that RNZ statement, she didn\u2019t really speak in response to what the Health New Zealand documents showed, particularly in relationship to reputational damage and, more than anything, about the harm it would have\u2014disproportionate harm that this legislation would have, according to Health New Zealand papers\u2014in relationship to Te Whatu Ora papers around the harm to M\u0101ori women, which the piece on RNZ specifically alludes to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m asking the Minister that if she\u2019s not going to engage in substance when put those questions by the media, I would hope that at least she would honour the feedback that she\u2019s been given by enriching us in this debate about what her response is to those papers that raise concern around reputation damage. To surmise and collate, I\u2019m keen to get a sense around whether reputational damage was raised in any of the other agencies that there was external consultation with, and, if so, whether she agrees with that, and just to illuminate us, as I asked previously, on other external consultation feedback that would have been given by other agencies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u002236da54ded1704f5a98014fa1c022c819\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002236da54ded1704f5a98014fa1c022c819\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. It is my first call in this debate, so I\u2019m grateful to have the opportunity to begin a line of questioning. The area I want to focus on is retail outlets, and, in particular, clause 9 of the bill, which repeals Subpart 1 of Part 1B of the original Act. I want to learn from the Minister what advice she received around the dangers of repealing that subpart of the original Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI think most members will know that it is a fairly logical connection between the availability of a product and how much product will be used. It is quite a simple kind of connection to make. I\u2019m wanting to find out from the Minister what advice she did receive around risks, in terms of repealing the number of retail outlets\u2014in particular, whether any evidence was presented to her that a higher density of retail outlets would, in fact, lead to increased smoking rates; then, within that question, whether there was any advice to her about any distinctions between youth and adult smoking rates when there is a higher density of outlets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EAs I say, as a person to whom this is not my area of expertise, there is a logical connection between more places to buy and more tobacco products being purchased. My question to the Minister is: what advice did she get? If she didn\u2019t get advice on that question, does she have a concern that retaining the number of outlets that we do now is going to lead to a greater level of smoking, particularly among our young in our smoking rates? I\u2019ve seen the Minister has been getting some advice, so I will carry on with one more question, and then perhaps come back with a couple more in order to fulfil your earlier ruling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe other point is whether or not the Minister has received any advice on availability having an impact\u2014is there a certain number of outlets, or a certain density of outlets that is a threshold when it comes to making a difference, because I can imagine that if you have to drive 500 metres, you\u2019ll be all right and you\u2019ll probably go and do that; if you have to drive 3 kilometres, you may well not be so inclined to do that. So my second question for the Minister is around\u2014has she been given any advice on a particular threshold that would need to be reached for that type of approach to make a difference? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThis is important, because this is the information that Opposition members would have received, and would have been seeking during a select committee process. The kinds of people who do research and studies into whether the density of outlets matters, or whether the distance between outlets, the number of outlets in a particular area matters; we would have had experts come into the select committee, and we\u2019d actually be standing here right now, in a committee of the whole House part of the debate being able to assess that advice. So they are my first two questions. I will come back, but I\u2019ll give the Minister the opportunity to answer those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u002233add861fd974844a187b15a3ee1b890\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002233add861fd974844a187b15a3ee1b890\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Green\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E I appreciate that, Mr Chair. So I have asked a number of questions to the Minister, particularly about where this piece of legislation comes from. And that is a particularly pertinent point because, of course, this is occurring under urgency, and this is the only opportunity that we have for meaningful scrutiny of this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ENow, the Minister, in response to my ongoing questioning on this point, has referred us successively to the coalition agreement. This is a point that is really important for us to have borne out here, because what we have is, effectively, a Government saying that the reason that they are doing something\u2014under urgency, no less, and, therefore, bypassing typical parliamentary and public scrutiny\u2014is because it is in the coalition agreement. Why is it in the coalition agreement? Well, because it\u2019s in the coalition agreement. But why is it in the coalition agreement? Because it\u2019s in the coalition agreement. That is, as I alluded to before, known as, logically, a tautology. Effectively, what the Government\u2019s saying is the reason that this is here is, \u201CCos we said so.\u201D In the Greens, and us here on the Opposition benches, we simply do not believe that is anywhere near good enough. Simply being in the position of Government does not give you a carte blanche right to do whatever it is that you would like off the back of that election result.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo some specific questions that I have again for the Minister, given that she has outlined that she\u2019s not particularly interested in answering where that came from in the coalition agreement, are particularly about consultation. So what we have in this legislation, is clause 5, which repeals section 3A(1)(a)(i), which states that the purpose is to reduce disparities in smoking rates and illnesses between the New Zealand population and the M\u0101ori population. This is a really important point, because we know, based on the facts, the data, and evidence that this Government has told us that they ostensibly care about, the daily smoking rates for non-M\u0101ori are approximately 6 percent. It is around triple that for M\u0101ori at around 17 percent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ETherefore, are we to take it from the bill as tabled today and that amendment of the purpose clause, to remove any consideration or spotlight on those disparities between M\u0101ori or non-M\u0101ori, as a hint to what consultation the Minister and this Government may or may not undertake with affected communities when it comes to the potential hypothetical regulation that may, potentially, at some point, come out of a future Cabinet document, which we have no idea about, to replace this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThat is my first really core point to the Minister: who will the Minister seek to engage with? And, in doing so, will she seek to uphold the partnership, as borne out in Te Tiriti o Waitangi, or is this clause 5 removal of section 3A(1)(a)(i) a hint that the Government is deprioritising M\u0101ori and, therefore, tangata whenua and the relationship within Te Tiriti o Waitangi?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EMy next question for the Minister in the chair\u2014and I, again, would really appreciate some meaningful answers to this, because we haven\u2019t so far really received much\u2014is whether these concerns that she has outlined, which, you know, somehow are related to the prominence of the black market when it comes to tobacco, is an approach that she will take consistently, logically, and evidentially in Cabinet when it comes to all substances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EBecause this is the really, really important point\u2014and we had members of the Government benches heckling me before on this, because we all know, if we are to look at the data and evidence, which, again, this Government has promised us that we would do\u2014that if you are to look at an approach that you can take to substances, you have a spectrum of regulatory approaches. At one end of the extreme, you have complete criminal prohibition. At the other end of the extreme, you have a complete legal free market, which is largely unregulated. At both ends of those extremes, you get the maximisation of harm, because whether it is players like criminal organisations or commercial organisations that are those in control of the supply chain, with that profit motive, you have the maximisation of harm. So to get away from those extremities, we need to get into a space of sensible regulation and do what we can to reduce that profit motive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo far, I haven\u2019t heard the advocacy for a consistent approach to substances, whether they be tobacco, alcohol, cannabis, or otherwise. And that is the second question that I have for the Minister: will she take and will New Zealand First advocate for a consistent approach to substances\u2014that is, to remove the profit motive both from the commercial market and from criminal prohibition through sensible regulation? Because, logically, that would take us to the conclusion that New Zealand First will be advocating for repeal and replacement of the Misuse of Drugs Act 1975.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2713fbcf55a4fe6aea6d47441b91435\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2713fbcf55a4fe6aea6d47441b91435\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll just run through a few points. I can assure the member to my left that the bill was drafted by the Parliamentary Counsel Office, so I can\u2019t take credit for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EThe number of outlets\u2014I just wanted to clarify that I wasn\u2019t saying that there is no impact on the number of outlets; I\u2019m saying that we have achieved significant reductions in smoking with the current number of outlets. So I\u2019m not sure where that position came from, but I can assure you that I wasn\u2019t saying there is no impact.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EAnd why there are no limits, I would reiterate that what we\u2019re talking about here is repealing the denicotinisation\u2014which, I\u2019ve said before, we\u2019re repealing the denicotinisation, we\u2019re repealing the number of retailers, and we\u2019re repealing the prohibition of those born after January 2009 to buy cigarettes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EAgain, we\u2019d go back to the position about reputation by national markets, and I can only observe that even from Action on Smoking and Health, in December 2023, they reported that New Zealand had one of the lowest smoking populations in the world and we had achieved unprecedented success. Again, I would reiterate that we\u2019re seeking to build on that success, which is why we\u2019re going down the path of repealing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EI think that answers, again, the question that was asked by the next member about reputational position. We have sought a range of advice and we will continue to seek advice, as I previously stated, to continue to drive the smoking rates down and reduce smoking harm. I can only acknowledge that I can accept that this answer isn\u2019t being accepted, but it is a fact that it is part of our coalition agreement. It is in our 100-day plan, and that\u2019s where the urgency has come from to drive this piece of legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EI can\u2019t comment\u2014and I don\u2019t see it as relevant to comment\u2014about what was or wasn\u2019t said in a media outlet interview, as it doesn\u2019t relate to the parts that we\u2019re debating at the moment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EAnd the legislation passed reducing the retail outlets, which formed this legislation that we\u2019re repealing\u2014I\u2019m sure there was extensive discussion about the thresholds and what would work and not work, which is where I assume the 600 retailers was achieved. That is what we\u2019re repealing, and we\u2019ll keep working on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EWe said repeatedly before about how we\u2019re focused on achieving the outcomes and we will continue to visit the actions that will work, and we will consult extensively with smokers and what tools they need in order to quit smoking. That is the objective of this next stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d5ebe887e3844819f2e97096ef350f2\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: What about iwi M\u0101ori?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a6b80c3225d4351af78733d27746062\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: We are focused on exactly that: driving solutions that meet the target audience of those who are most affected, and that includes M\u0101ori and Pasifika, to drive the positive solutions that we are seeing already and build on them. That\u2019s why we\u2019re appealing the blanket legislation so that we can focus on targeted solutions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022185fffb51f944ef88e1e61dca6a1cc10\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022185fffb51f944ef88e1e61dca6a1cc10\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Grant Robertson\u2014but I will challenge Mr Robertson to say that sharp questions don\u2019t generally tend to go into four minutes. So if that was what you\u2019re attempting to do, you might like to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022c096fb7ab8894588a94c63c5afdcb919\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c096fb7ab8894588a94c63c5afdcb919\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. Thank you, Mr Chair. Just seeking your guidance: I\u2019d like to seek leave to request the Associate Minister of Health to table the advice that she just referred to in the previous answer. Is that something that would be possible to do within the process that we have available?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002282e22ea5398c4590b56cbc1f476b802a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002282e22ea5398c4590b56cbc1f476b802a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the member can seek leave. The member seeks leave for the Minister to table the advice. Is there any objection? I\u2019ve just taken advice that no other member can seek that. If the Minister was quoting from a document that she has with her, that can be tabled, but otherwise the member is not in a position to actually seek that leave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u00229726546acd1c43dc8ced5fea5570c4b4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229726546acd1c43dc8ced5fea5570c4b4\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Can I confirm, when she referred to that advice, whether she was reading from it? She talked about seeking a range of advice in relation to my question, so if she was reading it\u2014I can\u2019t see whether she was reading it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022d2b4718e6473449aa98d1dccf4fea245\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d2b4718e6473449aa98d1dccf4fea245\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: So, Minister, I\u2019ll let you speak to this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae3b8472fd2746afbb7196fda7e8493a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae3b8472fd2746afbb7196fda7e8493a\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll seek leave to table this. It is a media article. It\u2019s not advice; it\u2019s a media release that was circulated by ASH. I\u2019m happy to table that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022be417721d26a4c8a92a3902a3a4f4029\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be417721d26a4c8a92a3902a3a4f4029\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00225de2b06130a94dd3bbf3c054211a234f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225de2b06130a94dd3bbf3c054211a234f\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. With respect to the Minister, she didn\u2019t answer the question that I asked, so I will repeat it. I want to know whether she got advice around whether or not higher retail density has been associated with increasing smoking rates, particularly for adults and young people. Just stating that it\u2019s been done is not actually an answer to the question\u2014and just stating that you weren\u2019t saying that. I want to know whether the Minister has been informed by advice, including by experts, on whether or not the thing that is being repealed under clause 9 of this bill actually is evidentially based to mean that it would help to lower smoking rates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa5058d34d7646f58f88c7948eb17657\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: I think we know the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f45e06d083a04a52a35480e8803a21f9\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we do, Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u2014we do know the answer. What I want to know is whether the Minister was informed by that advice in putting this in front of us now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe second question, which, similarly, I don\u2019t believe was answered sufficiently, was whether or not there is a threshold for the density of tobacco retailers that would have a particular impact on smoking rates. You know, it could be 50 percent, it could be 60, it could be 80, it could be 90. Is there a threshold that is reached where we have evidence that it leads to a decline in smoking rates? I would expect the Minister to have been informed by that advice in taking a decision to entirely remove that subpart from the Act, because that is what clause 9 of the bill does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m just repeating those questions because they were not answered. I want to move on then to another part of clause 9 and the repeal of Subpart 1 of Part 1B of the overall Act, and that is the questions of whether or not there should be minimum entry requirements to enter a market. They can be things like security requirements, training for staff, those sorts of things. I want to ask the Minister if by removing the entirety of Subpart 1 of Part 1B of the original Act, what happens to the minimum requirements that have been in place, because, again, and I acknowledge I\u2019m no expert in this area here, but the whole point of the parliamentary process is to be able to get evidence from experts. We were denied that without a select committee process. I have to say that my simplistic reading of Subpart 1 of Part 1B of the original Act is that it does get rid of the minimum requirements; it certainly gets rid of the new minimum requirements\u2014as far as I can see\u2014for involvement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESo that would be my additional question: what advice has the Minister had and is that, in fact, what she is doing with clause 9, and, if she did get advice on other options that could have been considered, what was that advice?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022 data-id=\u00220d9df46fcfb046f5ab664f345d93bee1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d9df46fcfb046f5ab664f345d93bee1\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to come back to clause 12 that we looked at before, and I think it\u2019s deeply ironic that today we have not just dealt one blow for M\u0101ori health but we\u2019re aiming to do yet another at the same time as we have the rare disorders meeting in Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EI was looking at an article that is in the International Journal of Environmental Research and Public Health, and in there there\u2019s a paper entitled, \u201CThe Multidimensional Impacts of Inequities for T\u0101ngata Whaikaha M\u0101ori (Indigenous M\u0101ori with Lived Experience of Disability) in Aotearoa, New Zealand\u201D, and it says, \u201CPeople with lived experience of disability have poorer health and socio-economic outcomes than people without it. However, within this population, certain social groups are more likely to experience poorer outcomes due to the impacts of multiple intersecting forms of oppression including colonisation, coloniality and racism.\u201D And I have to look at this bill and wonder what parts meet the criteria of racism and I see quite a few, actually, because this will impact the people who are already the most disadvantaged. This requirement or this desire to remove the limit of nicotine will impact those who are most at risk now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003ESo I would like to know if the coalition Government has a commitment to investigate using regulatory powers to reduce the risk of additives in nicotine levels, what other policy options were explored on nicotine limits rather than removing them altogether? This is a really important question: have you considered other options? Or if not, perhaps the member over to my right\u2014Damien O\u2019Connor\u2014who earlier proposed an amendment to reinstate the limit, perhaps this is a sensible way to go. Because if the Minister and if the Government have not thought about how they are going to reduce risk to our most vulnerable, how they are going to make sure that we can safeguard future generations, then they should take good advice when it\u2019s available to them. They should be willing to accept that some things are done poorly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EI\u2019m reminded of a book by George Orwell that said, \u201CIgnorance is strength.\u201D Well, boy, you guys are looking pretty strong at the moment. I really hope that you want to move out of a place of ignorance and come into the light and make a good decision and support nicotine restrictions and do good for our most vulnerable. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u00227a3cfd761d124d8ba91984f445b95663\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a3cfd761d124d8ba91984f445b95663\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chair, thank you very much. I would like to take up your offer to have some back and forth with the Minister on topics that relate to the area of the regulation of retail outlets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EFirstly, I\u2019d like to ask the Minister if she considered keeping the approved retailer components of the Act without reducing the number of retail outlets, and, if not, why did she reject that approach?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2bbf71edeea47ba85b8d1720c8858b4\u0022\u003EHelen White\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc8a6220adde443db3071e0c5595342a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc8a6220adde443db3071e0c5595342a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m conscious that it does take two to tango. But Dr Ayesha Verrall.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u0022b26582f55e074adfb000c009353227f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b26582f55e074adfb000c009353227f1\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E So, Mr Chair\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u002231ba1dcef1ee414f89e06b5b03692e62\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231ba1dcef1ee414f89e06b5b03692e62\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chair, can I take a call? I\u2019ll just go back around the higher retail density advice. There has been a range of advice received and that\u2019s what we\u2019ve worked through to achieve the repeal legislation that we\u2019ve got before us. The threshold for entry into the market\u2014there were no minimum requirements previously, before this legislation was put in place, to reduce the retailers. That\u2019s why there are no minimum requirements remaining as we\u2019re repealing that component of this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EI will acknowledge the poorer health outcomes, and we are committed to smoke-free targets. This bill is repealing a process; it does not change the target.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EFinally, in terms of the retail outlets question that was just asked, I\u2019d just clarify that, again, we are repealing the minimum threshold. This is not an end position, as I\u2019ve said repeatedly; we\u2019re looking at a range of tools moving forward, to ensure that we are targeting the demographics that we know are most adversely affected and we will continue to work on those targets. As opposed to a blanket approach, we are focused on a targeted approach to achieve the end goal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u00226c3837a73d274ba682dc57a31ef64950\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c3837a73d274ba682dc57a31ef64950\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Yeah, thank you, Mr Chair. Perhaps in the time I\u2019m on my feet, if the way in which these back and forths are intended to work could be repeated, that would be very helpful, I think, to the type of interaction that the Standing Orders allow us to have here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003ELook, the question was not \u201CWhy are you not reducing the number of outlets?\u201D; the question to the Minister was \u201CDid she consider retaining an approved retailer scheme?\u201D Not necessarily reducing the number of outlets, but did she think that there could be any other benefits to having an approved retailer scheme? How did she come to the decision not only to remove the number of outlets but to remove the approved retailer scheme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u0022d680f9270b77460bae910f73d35ad2fe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d680f9270b77460bae910f73d35ad2fe\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Yeah, in the spirit of back and forth: as I said before, this isn\u2019t an end position. We\u2019re removing this legislation because we\u2019re repealing the legislation that\u2019s in there. As I said, it\u2019s not an end position. We\u2019re continuing to work on strategies that will achieve the smoke-free targets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u002282f633f2093d45d893ee5a44097a8717\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002282f633f2093d45d893ee5a44097a8717\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E In light of that, then I think it could be useful to have a discussion about the pros and cons of that regulatory approach, because an approved retailer scheme is similar to a licensing scheme. So I want to ask the Minister: does she think it\u2019s right that tobacco retailers don\u2019t need to be licensed to sell tobacco or approved to sell tobacco, and yet for the much less harmful product of alcohol, retailers of alcohol do have to be licensed? I\u2019d like to understand what she thinks about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u00224b1bb54355504c7f9b9512c659359db0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b1bb54355504c7f9b9512c659359db0\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I\u2019d like to take the lead of my colleague and ask you to answer this question and be able to just put a simple question to you. I am really concerned about the part of the bill where you get rid of any requirement to limit the amount of nicotine. This is a very, very addictive drug, and, for some reason, you\u2019ve decided to remove that part of the Act which stops the nicotine being at high levels. I simply, for the life of me\u2014good faith\u2014honestly want to know why anyone would do that. The only reason I can see for doing it is to sell a highly addictive substance and to hook people on to something that is highly addictive. They can\u2019t escape from it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard from some of the other speakers about that tonight, including National Party speakers, about how hard it is to kick such a habit. So why\u2014why\u2014are you doing that? I honestly would just love to know the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u0022983eac4984da40b5aa9490ab34556c76\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022983eac4984da40b5aa9490ab34556c76\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019d just reiterate again about the tobacco retailers proposition and what\u2019s been discussed. I will say yet again that we are looking at a range of options as we move forward to achieve the smoke-free targets. In terms of why we are taking the action to remove the denicotinisation aspect, that is what we have positioned in our coalition agreement, and that is what we\u2019re delivering. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002263e70283aeda4a6f97ba35dab3795f41\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263e70283aeda4a6f97ba35dab3795f41\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Could I just say to members that the debate has been going for two hours. A new member coming in and asking a question does not represent new information or a new thing. Just be aware\u2014particularly members who are coming in later\u2014that we are looking for new material. So those that have been here a little longer will probably know a little bit more about what\u2019s been going on in the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u00227389f2e1344147adb1fe51a65d24d043\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227389f2e1344147adb1fe51a65d24d043\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chair, well, thank you, and I would like again to take that opportunity to go back and forth over the course of my time on this. We\u2019re talking about the approved retailer scheme in the Act, and what I want to understand is not that it\u2019s being repealed, because it\u2019s being repealed; what I want to understand is: why is it appropriate, in the Associate Minister of Health\u2019s view\u2014why is it risk proportionate that tobacco, that kills half the people that use it, does not need a retail premise to be licensed, but for a less harmful product like alcohol, it is appropriate that it be licensed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0ec27e179d84d5ea8400f7fd4f0c653\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0ec27e179d84d5ea8400f7fd4f0c653\u0022\u003EGREG FLEMING (National\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E I move that debate on this motion now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u00221726cd510fd84478b587d232191e3e26\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221726cd510fd84478b587d232191e3e26\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe. Thank you very much, Mr Chair. My question will relate directly to clause 23 of this bill, the repeal of section 105 of the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Act. I want to use the Associate Minister of Health\u2019s words, which were about \u201Crevisit, review, make sure the settings are right moving forward\u201D. Those were the words of the Minister in a recent contribution not 20 minutes, maybe, perhaps 30 minutes ago. \u201CRevisit, review\u201D to make sure the settings are right, so that they can get the desired outcome into the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003ESo directly to clause 23, the repeal of section 105, then. I can accept that the Government\u2019s going to push forward with respect to the generation aspect of the smoke-free legislation that this Government passed. I can accept that. But given the Minister\u2019s words around \u201Crevisit, review, make sure the settings are right\u201D, good policy development tells me that a review must take place. So then my question to the Minister is: why wouldn\u2019t there be a review? And not understanding the reckless behaviour that the review, in the original part of the bill, would actually be able to substantiate and explain to the Minister or any future Minister or a Government or anyone reading the particular review\u2014the kind of reckless behaviour around retailers and the way that they sell to younger generations. I can accept that there\u2019s a generational aspect here. Oh, it looked like the Minister was about\u2014so if it\u2019s all right, if she\u2019s prepared to, then I\u2019m prepared, Mr Chair, to have the back and forth you\u2019ve indicated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc95d92de1d040978c04d36e57c28df5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc95d92de1d040978c04d36e57c28df5\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I just go back to the retailer licensing and reconfirm that the repeal here is because the licensing framework that sat in here related to the reduced retailer numbers and that\u2019s why it\u2019s being repealed. In regard to the review aspect, this review aspect related specifically to the reduced retailers. What I\u2019ve been talking about is ensuring that, through the statistics that we see and the measures that we\u2019re trying to achieve, we\u2019re reviewing that we\u2019re doing the right thing to achieve those targets. This review related to the repeal within\u2014the legislation that we\u2019re repealing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u002275a70a224531448ca865d8233759d41b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275a70a224531448ca865d8233759d41b\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I thank the Minister for confirming the need for good information, for strong review to be able to inform decision making moving forward. I have already mentioned that I accept that the Minister and this Government are looking to repeal this particular\u2014through clause 23, the repeal of section 105 of the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Act, and that relates directly to sections 40A and 40B in the legislation. I accept the generational matter, but this goes back to the point around\u2014and my question of and understanding that, in the licensing of retailers, making sure that we understand the behaviour of retailers, not just in general wholesale of cigarette or tobacco products but, in fact, to a younger generation. And I know there\u2019s an age being set here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EHowever, we want to understand (1) those who are reckless in the sale of tobacco products. We heard in the House, from members on the other side of the Chamber earlier today, that, you know, this is important that we get it right for retailers. I accept that. So, therefore, we need to understand who of the retailers are actually reckless, or who are those who are skirting around the laws here. And the only way to do that, I put to the Minister, is through a review. How can the Minister give me and the general public more confidence that the kind of review that she\u2019s referring to\u2014to ensure that she makes the right decisions moving forward? How can she give us confidence that there will be a review to make sure that those retailers, not simply through their licensing arrangements, aren\u2019t flouting the laws here, despite there being a set age for those who can purchase tobacco products?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022929c5662c18f4534ba61807f3eb73f6a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022929c5662c18f4534ba61807f3eb73f6a\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. Mr Chair, I seek leave for the next call to be a five-minute call that consists of an exchange between Dr Ayesha Verrall and the Minister in the chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022d9fb7f7b48a54f35abfb23be62484a89\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d9fb7f7b48a54f35abfb23be62484a89\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u00228bfdbb898ce14d659ac4cd2f2acc8985\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228bfdbb898ce14d659ac4cd2f2acc8985\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chair, thank you very much for that. I think, notwithstanding the rather circular logic, where it feels like we\u2019ve fallen down the rabbit hole and we\u2019re being told that the changes are made because the changes are being made, I think it\u2019s important that it\u2019s clear for the record what the approved retailer scheme is, because it may be that not everyone in this committee, including those in positions of responsibility for this bill, understand it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003ESo let\u2019s go over what the approved retailer scheme actually is. It is a scheme that is equivalent to a licensing scheme. It means that the Director-General of Health will use specified criteria to approve a retailer. Yes, in the bill that we passed in 2022, it included a markedly reduced number of outlets because it is clear that the number of outlets is correlated with increased numbers of people smoking, including young people smoking. But that is not all it does\u2014that is not all the approved retailer scheme does. I would like the Minister to answer whether or not she has been given any advice to make this clear to her. Has anyone told her that the approved retailer scheme could operate at any level of retail outlets? She could make it 8,000, which is the upper estimate of what it is now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EI heard from contributions from some members on the other side that this bill is being passed out of concerns for small business. Well, in that case, those concerns could be met, and no one would go out of business if the approved retailer scheme was kept in place. The approved retailer scheme would allow for there to be specifications about the security in the store, and that would mean that concerns that the other side of the House purport to have about ram raids could be addressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EThe approved retailer scheme required that responsible people were the only people able to be an approved retailer, and that would enable enforcement. Once people had been shown to be selling to under-age people, they could be deemed no longer responsible persons, and then they would lose their licence. It would help greatly with enforcement because we would know where the approved retailers are. We currently have no idea where they are and, therefore, when our public health people go out to do the visits and controlled purchase operations where they send young people to see if people will sell to them when they\u2019re too young, those operations can\u2019t be as well-targeted as it would if there was an approved retailer scheme and all the retail outlets were known about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003ESo there are multiple things that the approved retailer scheme would be good for which have nothing to do with reducing the number of outlets. So my question to the Minister is whether this passed her by, or was she actually given advice on this, and, if so, why did she make the decision to drop the approved retailer scheme, no matter what her view on the number of retail outlets is?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u00229dba3b47ae9f4c2da3ee88629ce0209d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229dba3b47ae9f4c2da3ee88629ce0209d\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I can assure the member that I have been fully cognisant of what was in this legislation, and what we\u2019re repealing and the approval process for the retailers as it linked to an evaluation of suitability for retailers, it also linked to the number of retailers. I will say again, despite sounding a bit repetitive, that this is not an end position. We are repealing these three aspects of the legislation and will continue to work on initiatives to achieve our smoke-free targets. I would remind the House that despite having no idea where these retailers are or whether they\u2019re compliant, we have achieved outstanding success in reducing smoking rates. So let\u2019s retain perspective that these steps that we are repealing are not currently in place, and yet we have achieved the success we have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022 data-id=\u002224cdafb417e44f628b349f4785135544\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002224cdafb417e44f628b349f4785135544\u0022\u003ENANCY LU (National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u00227aec522a586844afadfa94ae62e2ff14\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227aec522a586844afadfa94ae62e2ff14\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Thank you for the opportunity to take a call, Mr Chair. I just note that this is the first opportunity I\u2019ve had to take a call, and I do want to bring in a couple of new matters. I just want to reiterate again that we haven\u2019t had the opportunity to have that select committee process, and, as some members have so aptly pointed out, this is the opportunity that we would normally have to seek some further information from officials. So I\u2019m not going to use my full call, but I do want to be able to ask some specific questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThe first is I think my colleague Dr Ayesha Verrall has actually put in place a very sensible amendment where it would insert new section 20OD which would prevent smoking in national parks. Now, this may seem to some members who live in urban areas\u2014why would this be an important matter to raise? But in my area, which I know, Mr Chair, you know well, we have a number of national parks. We currently have significant fire restrictions, and I\u2019d be interested to know if the Associate Minister of Health would consider making such an amendment, because we are at serious risk of a fire if there were to be somebody using a cigarette in close proximity to a national park. So I thought that was a very interesting amendment, and I\u2019d be interested in the Minister\u2019s comments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EBut what I want to come back to is some comments that the Minister made in some of her responses, because they were very interesting to me. These are specific comments that the Minister has put forward in her responses, and I would like just to dig into them a little bit more. In an earlier response, the Minister said that the goal was to reduce smoking rates, which is why we are repealing this, and I can\u2019t quite understand that, because, actually, the evidence that I\u2019ve seen is that repealing this won\u2019t lead to reducing smoking rates to the extent that we need to in order to achieve the goals. So I\u2019m specifically interested in any advice that the Minister has seen to specifically look at reaching the goals that we need to reach under the legislation, that were put in place, may I remind members, by members of the National Party in the past. The logic doesn\u2019t seem to apply to this. I can\u2019t see the logic when the Minister said we want to reduce smoking rates, which is why we are repealing this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThe other matter\u2014and my colleague Dr Ayesha Verrall has tried to elicit answers from the Minister on this and has not actually had the answers about what advice has been received. We\u2019ve heard the Minister\u2019s arguments as to why she thinks this is a good idea, but we\u2019re specifically asking around advice. The Minister has made comments that we\u2019re not amending the target, just the process, but we have not had any information into what process that is. Sure, we can have a target, but we can\u2019t reach that target without a mechanism or without a process. So, just, I\u2019m responding specifically to these comments from the Minister, and my colleague who has tried to seek further information about the advice that the Minister has received in order for us to reach the target.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThis is why I want to dig in further to some of the responses the Minister has made, and I will continue to seek the call until we have actually received those answers. Thank you, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u0022c4870810b24641c78813f92592ba2c93\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c4870810b24641c78813f92592ba2c93\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E As I think I\u2019ve reiterated, I have received a range of advice, extensive advice, and I\u2019d love to list it here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242c015aac3da43588c66fd69c5cc6a4d\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not the point of this stage. You get to do that in questions; you don\u2019t get to do that in committee of the whole House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e71b1dc762dc4f56a15841c08d2e0528\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO\u003C/span\u003E: OK. So when I talked about how this is the process, I\u2019m talking about, specifically, we are repealing the systems that were put in place as part of the amendment that was passed, which is the denicotinisation, the reduced retailers, and the ban on young people buying cigarettes who were born from January 2009. Those are the systems we\u2019re repealing, and that is the process that was being applied to achieve the smoke-free targets that were being propositioned. But as I\u2019ve said repeatedly, this level that we were at in terms of our smoking targets is significantly higher than when that legislation was put in place. So we are committed to achieving the less than 5 percent smoke-free targets across all populations, and we will continue to drive those initiatives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2f46c514ddc45579a5926748a4fd41b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2f46c514ddc45579a5926748a4fd41b\u0022\u003ESAM UFFINDELL (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022884721927c164044a827342ca4a4dc4c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022884721927c164044a827342ca4a4dc4c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00227a81dc813adb4c2bb05bcb944e24ad43\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a81dc813adb4c2bb05bcb944e24ad43\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225526450666d04330a7c39480817b4f6b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, point of order. In fact, I\u2019ve just begun the process of voting, so the point of order\u2014I\u2019ll take the point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234652e78b5a64d6fb029f22b561188f4\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m raising this point\u2014and it\u2019s relevant to exactly what\u2019s just occurred\u2014under Speaker\u2019s ruling 68/1, I believe it is. It\u2019s a ruling of Speaker Mallard\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233345ac3837743809984b77a75db0cb8\u0022\u003EDan Bidois\u003C/span\u003E: Ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237a03b82d2da424dada64c7f4c4eb030\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014around the closure motion. Is there a problem, Mr Bidois?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282e8ae5d54974b2ab370038787bcf6a8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Bidois, points of order are heard in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e666306e360469d85dcc538cd82929e\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON\u003C/span\u003E: Speaker\u2019s ruling 68/1, and also Speakers\u2019 ruling 79/4, I believe it is\u2014and this is partly a point of order to explain the interjection that it\u2019s clear the Minister didn\u2019t understand. There is a purpose to the change to the way that the committee of the whole House process is run\u2014and, Mr Chair, I know this places you in a difficult position and I\u2019m coming to the end part of my point of order in a moment. But to simply repeat a series of political lines in answer to a series of technical questions is, I believe, a breach of the Speakers\u2019 rulings around the committee of the whole House stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve listened to this debate upstairs, I came down, I\u2019ve participated in it, and throughout the debate, questions have not been answered. So I know that you will make the final ruling that you will make, Mr Chair, but it places us in a very, very difficult position when the committee of the whole House process fails to work and when we\u2019ve had urgency that takes the select committee process out. So I just ask you to consider those Speakers\u2019 rulings that are relevant to the engagement of the Minister in the debate, and I invite you to consider that in any future actions you may be about to take. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022bbe413d347144fea9b9117ac02bb3e6a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bbe413d347144fea9b9117ac02bb3e6a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I will address the point of order\u2014we\u2019ll call it a point of order. It is that all those things you have brought up are legitimate, and that\u2019s why we are still on this question at this stage. My decision will take all of those things into account. But it\u2019s nice to have them articulately laid out, because I\u2019m going to now put the question that the debate on this matter now be closed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002274b0f14f678e47308d050edc7baf2d31\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022a86fe1f6c77e4e859e4fa0e61aed2008\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a86fe1f6c77e4e859e4fa0e61aed2008\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor\u2019s tabled amendments to Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022185b9e942d5c4a12a8c1516b7f54bb1a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022d229edeb4589437cb531d6480fe18b53\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d229edeb4589437cb531d6480fe18b53\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Shanan Halbert\u2019s tabled amendment to insert new clause 8A be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f93d0638276749478c05d68e6f5dd662\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf411a01951e4d89b49e6b772e213103\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf411a01951e4d89b49e6b772e213103\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Helen White\u2019s tabled amendment to delete clause 9 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fc551069db5f460ab035d917a65f47a0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0bb95844f52443ba1d6a895cec62191\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0bb95844f52443ba1d6a895cec62191\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The tabled amendments to Part 1 from the Hon Rachel Brooking, Tangi Utikere, Cushla Tangaere-Manuel, the Hon Dr Ayesha Verrall, and the Hon Dr Duncan Webb are out of order as inconsistent with a previous decision of the committee. Ingrid Leary\u2019s tabled amendment to Part 1 is out of order as outside the scope of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a80a1b02782b4af18489ce232fd719f1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e172c2aaf6a446ef9775c8d72645caa4\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to other enactments\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002253f8fe1a0cbe4aee99c57672f14b4148\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253f8fe1a0cbe4aee99c57672f14b4148\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we come now to Part 2. This is debate on clauses 25 to 44, \u201CAmendments to other enactments\u201D, and Schedules 1 and 2. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u0022afea73bd15b34cd5938b25f9f758dfb1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022afea73bd15b34cd5938b25f9f758dfb1\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Green\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E I can feel the frustration from members of the Government that we are having to have this debate right now, but I\u2019d remind them that they put us and our democracy in this position in the first place. I heard from members of the ACT Party, in particular, that the Minister in the chair, the Hon Casey Costello, doesn\u2019t have to answer when we, as members of the Opposition, are addressing questions directly to her. As a matter of technicality, that may indeed be the case. But I\u2019d say, with regards to our democracy and the very procedures that we come to expect of this place, that I would hope that we can have a meaningful back and forth. So, to that effect, the kind of takeaway I feel that New Zealanders can get from this debate tonight and from the contributions of the Minister and the governing parties is that the Government is saying, \u201CTaihoa, slow down, on saving lives.\u201D That\u2019s the point of this legislation tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo I just wanted to have that\u2014a specific back and forth with the Minister, if that indeed will be indulged by the Minister. And we can have that meaningful back and forth, in lieu of the select committee and usual procedures, to have scrutiny over legislation. Because the Minister, in her responses to my questions in the last part, in Part 1, was stating that we\u2019re not to take it as a hint as to the future consultation on the upcoming whatever Cabinet paper or future of smoke-free legislation looks like\u2014that there was in that Part 1, as just confirmed by this committee, the removal of section 3A(a)(i) of the principal Act, which states the purpose \u201Cto reduce disparities in smoking rates and \u2026 illnesses\u201D between the broader New Zealand population and M\u0101ori. Again, I\u2019d remind those following along at home that this is particularly relevant because the disparities in smoking rates between non-M\u0101ori\u2014for non-M\u0101ori, it\u2019s around 6 percent, and for M\u0101ori, it continues to hover at around 17 percent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo my question, which I implore the Minister to answer right now, if we\u2019re to have that meaningful back and forth\u2014because, again, for those following along at home, I will otherwise get back up and continue to prosecute this case. But my hope is that the Minister answers. She alluded before to the fact that she hopes that there will be more targeted interventions, particularly for M\u0101ori smoking rates. To that effect, so far, has the Minister met with any iwi M\u0101ori, hapu, kaupapa M\u0101ori health organisations on this legislation in front of us tonight? Mr Chair? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5553d06ec4f44ab9f3dd8d4b1b7e52a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The honourable Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u2014Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291c5dc89cbf144c68e4acfa1d9949b12\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll take the honourable, Mr Chair! So what we\u2019re seeing there is probably the quiet part said out loud, or, rather, not said at all, which is that the Government has not engaged with this Treaty partner when it comes to progressing this legislation in front of us tonight. Unfortunately, that is the situation that we\u2019re left with. Not only is there no meaningful opportunity for public participation, as is convention of this place, but also the Minister is not meeting with the most directly impacted community when it comes to the passage of this legislation, under urgency, as the House sits until midnight tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo let\u2019s try a different tack then, because we\u2019ve heard from the Minister in her commentary in the media and also in her contributions in the debate tonight that she intends to, in the hypothetical potential legislation to replace this\u2014when it comes to smoke-free regulation, she will be focusing on vaping. So let\u2019s dig in to precisely what that might look like. Because, again, we\u2019re kind of seeing and hearing from the Government that their rationale for removing this legislation is that they intend to do something different, the details of which we have no information on whatsoever. So let\u2019s get some of that scoping up, should the Minister be willing to engage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EHere I just think it\u2019s important for folks following along at home who may be interested in this to refer back to today\u2019s question time, where it appeared as though there were quite different views on what was occurring in this space from the Minister and from the Prime Minister\u2014those being, obviously, two of the three coalition parties. I refer the Minister to this statement from 23 May 2023, obviously pre-election, from Christopher Luxon, who said then, \u201CI think good on them,\u201D\u2014that is, Australia\u2014\u201Cthey\u2019re trying to nip an issue in the bud early, this was the promise that actually it was the last bit of toolset we needed to get people to come off cigarettes and instead it\u2019s ballooned and mushroomed into a massive addiction for young people. Let\u2019s do it now rather than let this issue carry on for another 30 years and regret it down the road \u2026 It\u2019s pretty wild \u2026 out there, you\u2019ve got lots of stores, more stores than pharmacies, stores opposite schools [selling vapes] and the products aren\u2019t supposed to be sold or marketing to people under the age of 18 and yet they\u2019re clearly being consumed by lots of people under the age of 18.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThis is a salient point, because we have there an individual who is now the Prime Minister and the leader of one of the three governing parties saying that he intended to not take off the table, prior to the election, the potential for the complete outright banning of\u2014that is, the criminal prohibition of\u2014vaping, which the Minister is now holding out as a cessation tool but simultaneously saying in the media that she intends to regulate in a stricter manner. So my direct question to the Minister is: is it within the Government\u2019s contemplation that they might entirely criminally prohibit vaping? Mr Chair? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276608ac1a6e344efbae446879a242783\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d5675b794e442ccb94d23de510a6447\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK\u003C/span\u003E: Again! Unfortunately, in lieu of any meaningful engagement or back and forth with the Minister\u2014and we have to prosecute this case, because we don\u2019t have any opportunity for proper scrutiny through a select committee process, which kind of makes a farce of this entire committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EBut here I\u2019d refer the Minister to another statement from the National Party leader, Christopher Luxon, this time from 2 May 2023. This is a quote out of the New Zealand Herald, which said, and I quote, \u201CMeanwhile, National Party leader Christopher Luxon says he would be open to \u2018all things\u2019 including a ban, stating the current settings for vaping products in New Zealand are \u2018wrong\u2019.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThis is the perplexing situation that we are in as a committee and a House of Representatives tonight. We are being asked to believe that the Government is going to replace this evidence-built legislation to regulate and reduce smoking in this country at a faster track than the previous status quo, which this Government is seeking to return us to, whilst also having no information about what that future might potentially look like, while the Government is simultaneously saying that they are going to crack down harder on the gangs and on those who operate in the criminal underworld\u2014i.e., those who peddle in substances that are presently criminally prohibited under the likes of the Misuse of Drugs Act 1975. We have, on the other hand, an individual that is now the leader of our country in the form of the Prime Minister saying that it would not be off the table prior to the election that vapes might be entirely outlawed and criminally prohibited, we have a Minister who is saying that vapes are a critical tool in cessation, and crickets on what\u2019s to come.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo, Mr Chair, I don\u2019t know about you, but I just have to say that all of this just feels farcical. It feels ridiculous. It feels ludicrous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253238203c26c4588bd78b9b960193e31\u0022\u003EHon Mark Patterson\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not in the bill, Chl\u00F6e. It\u2019s a different bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225baea480ded24bf09aeab5c1f77fd897\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK\u003C/span\u003E: And I would implore members of the Government, who right now are heckling about the fact that we are trying to debate this meaningfully under the urgency that they have imposed upon us, bypassing typical democratic processes, to look in the mirror. Because, guys, you\u2019ve put us here. This is the unfortunate situation that we are in, where we are being asked to slow down on saving lives, with no information about what\u2019s to come next and a Government that likes to pretend, at least in the text of its own coalition documents, so farcically and so ridiculously, and not worth the paper that it\u2019s written on, that their decisions are based on data and evidence. I think my point has been made, including by the fact that Government members are completely unwilling to stand up and defend this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u0022caccf46dc4894ab39b9cf9d7676d054d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022caccf46dc4894ab39b9cf9d7676d054d\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I would love to comment, but at this point we\u2019re debating Part 2 of this legislation repeal and there isn\u2019t any vaping aspects within this. But I will confirm that, yes, we do see vaping as an important cessation tool. We think there\u2019s a great opportunity to build on the success that vaping has achieved in cessation of smoking, and we will continue to engage with M\u0101ori as we progress those things that we believe will allow us to achieve our smoke-free targets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u00223e74fa7cf4094b51923ebfee82c415b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e74fa7cf4094b51923ebfee82c415b8\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I agree with the Minister that we\u2019re on Part 2. It\u2019s one of the very few things that I suspect I will agree with her on tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESubpart 1 of Part 2 deals with the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products (Smoked Tobacco) Amendment Act 2022. The particular part that I want to focus on is clause 26 of this bill, which amends the commencement dates in that 2022 piece of legislation. In a way, for me, this goes to the nub of the frustration that you\u2019re hearing on this side of the Chamber, because what those provisions did do\u2014or still currently do do until this part passes\u2014is actually bring into force a series of initiatives that were part of Dr Verrall\u2019s legislation that she brought in to allow the three big things we\u2019ve been talking about: denicotinisation, retail outlet sales, and the age changes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThe specific commencement clause\u2014clause 2(1)\u2014brings a number of those sections into force on 1 January 2027. So I guess that\u2019s my question for the Minister, because the Minister has made a significant amount tonight of the fact that some of these clauses weren\u2019t in operation, and, of course, that\u2019s absolutely true. That\u2019s because we took the responsible action of rolling these out over a period of time to minimise disruption, to be able to support the changes\u2014particularly around the age issues\u2014so that they were done in line with the purposes that we had in putting them in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ESo where I want the Minister to respond to us on here is on what time line is now in place, because for all of this debate, I have heard the Minister say to us that this is not the end. Now, it\u2019s completely ludicrous to repeal the legislation here and not have any idea what you\u2019re going to do. I mean, I don\u2019t think you could be more irresponsible than repealing it because you said you were going to repeal it\u2014I don\u2019t think I actually heard much about that in the election campaign. But anyway, one party said they were going to repeal it, and then that\u2019s the reason to do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EThis is the opportunity, here in Part 2, for the Minister to stand up and tell us what\u2019s actually going to happen and when\u2014if I want to relate it to the commencement clause\u2014it\u2019s going to happen, because, again, all we\u2019re doing here in this clause, as a Parliament, is repealing some dates for this particular legislation, and we\u2019re left with nothing. We\u2019re left with a void. We\u2019re left with no progress. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWe are, as many members have indicated, left with going backwards in terms of the number of people who will now suffer smoking-related illnesses or will take up smoking. So here\u2019s the opportunity for the Minister to tell us, in repealing section 2(1)\u2014and, I believe, it\u2019s actually most of that section; section 2(1) to (3) of the 2022 Act\u2014what is the Minister going to replace it with and when is the Minister going to do that, because otherwise we\u2019re left with this void that shows the Government doesn\u2019t actually have a plan at all and is simply doing this for political reasons, which I think is particularly dangerous when we\u2019re dealing with tobacco.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u0022b103a3a44af74c7498f9db42b7b672f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b103a3a44af74c7498f9db42b7b672f4\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to go back to the commencement dates challenge that you\u2019ve talked about. This is where we\u2019re repealing these steps that are being implemented\u2014I think we\u2019ve repeated that as to this is the reason. You\u2019ve talked about not hearing it from across the House, but it was in both the ACT and New Zealand First coalitions with National, so clearly it was important enough to be in both our coalition agreements, and to suggest we\u2019re left with no progress\u2014I think I\u2019ve reiterated a few times here that we have made enormous progress. I have given credit to this side of the House about the progress we\u2019ve made, and that progress is continuing. There\u2019s no suggestion that that progress is levelling off, and we will continue to focus on those achievements that the existing legislation has allowed us to achieve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u002284ceb40c3cc54bf68ca732b22bcf2c9a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284ceb40c3cc54bf68ca732b22bcf2c9a\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019d like to have a back and forth with the Minister, or certainly refer to something that she has brought into the conversation around Part 2, where she explicitly said that she will consult with M\u0101ori around these particular provisions including the changes to age and also to the commencement date. In doing that, I\u2019d like to just put on the record my dissatisfaction with the Minister\u2019s answers to previous questions around this engagement, because we did\u2014the Hon Peeni Henare asked about the sweeping provisions in Part 1 that got rid of obligations to Te Tiriti o Waitangi, and numerous members across this side of the House were interrogating what was going to replace that and there were no satisfactory answers. So my question, really, speaks to the other points that people have been trying to get and we\u2019ve had no satisfactory answer from the Minister about her scale of ambition for the targets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESo if we look, for example, at a Radio New Zealand story that was on today, we are aware from that\u2014under the Official Information Act\u2014that the Minister received advice that \u201Cthe smokefree laws would have made a big dent in the disparity of health outcomes between M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori.\u201D and that by 2040, it would \u201Creduce the gap in mortality rates for over 45-year-olds by 23 percent for females and \u2026 10 percent for males.\u201D Now, when the Minister was asked on radio about the Treaty analysis\u2014which also speaks to her statement that she will consult under Part 2, and we haven\u2019t heard any satisfactory explanation on what that consultation would look like\u2014she said, \u201CI do not accept what Health officials have said about our Treaty of Waitangi obligations, but it\u2019s not appropriate to talk further about that while a claim is before the [Waitangi] Tribunal.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ENow, there\u2019s two parts to my question to the Minister: one is she\u2019s just made a bald statement to say that even though she\u2019s given us an assurance in this House that she is going to consult appropriately on Part 2 with M\u0101ori, that she doesn\u2019t think that there\u2019s any problem with the Treaty but she hasn\u2019t said why and, certainly, she didn\u2019t say why in previous questions. So I\u2019d really like to know from the Minister why she thinks so. I would also point out that there has been a careful debate earlier today in the repeal of Te Aka Whai Ora, the M\u0101ori Health Authority, where there was a question around the appropriateness or not of referring to the Waitangi Tribunal hearings and there was a decision made that it was appropriate, that sub judice laws did not apply. And so I would just remind the Minister of that because it\u2019s not acceptable\u2014the point is that she needs to be careful given that there\u2019s a claim there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard nothing to reassure us that M\u0101ori will be consulted. The questions that I have are: when she says that they will be, who will be consulted, how will those people be selected, when will that consultation take place, and how can she reassure this House that the consultation will be appropriate to have the interests of M\u0101ori heard adequately given that there is now, in the repealed bill, as it stands, no other obligation on her to consult with M\u0101ori? So I get that the Minister might want to do this in good faith, I get that she may want to do that, but there is no legislative safeguard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWhen I talk about scale of ambition, repeatedly the Minister has talked about the success to date. Does that mean that she is satisfied with the progress made? She has said\u2014I think she said it publicly\u2014that a third of those who have quit smoking over the last few years have been M\u0101ori. Does that mean that she is satisfied with that progress and does not have a scale of ambition to get all smokers off smoking? Is she satisfied with pushing out the date to meet the smoke-free targets or is she going to commit to the targets that were legislated? Because right now there\u2019s a lot of confusion about what those targets actually are and whether there are protections for adequate consultation so that M\u0101ori, who represent the higher statistics\u201417 percent still smoking versus significantly lower for the rest of the population\u2014they deserve to know what will happen about that consultation. Where are the legislative safeguards? How can we be sure that Part 2 is going to take into account their interests?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u0022372c6773259842b68bbed0bc2ab9ba0d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022372c6773259842b68bbed0bc2ab9ba0d\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019d like to ask about clause 35, which amends the regulations that were passed in 2021 and revokes subparts 2A, 2B, and 2C of those regulations. For my colleagues who haven\u2019t yet had the opportunity to google those regulations, it does include the regulations that define the limits of the nicotine concentration in regulated tobacco products. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister is when we regulate the contents of food\u2014and we regulate harmful products all the time, we regulate seatbelts, and we regulate helmets\u2014what is it about nicotine that means she is comfortable passing a bill that doesn\u2019t regulate the contents of tobacco or cigarettes? Why is this the one thing in our society that isn\u2019t regulated, when, actually, it\u2019s the most harmful product we have? Why is the product allowed to contain anything in it\u2014and there\u2019s no limits; well, it\u2019s being revoked. Why is it that we\u2019re revoking here regulations about the contents of this product\u2014a product documented for over 70 years to do a huge amount of harm to people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EIt seems to me that we have these conversations, and they go something like this: we ask you why, and you say, \u201CBecause I\u2019m doing it.\u201D I would really like to see if you could come up with a logical reason\u2014a reason that starts with, \u201CMy view about this product is this, and that is why\u2026\u201D, and has some connection between the beginning and the end that makes sense. We don\u2019t want to spend the entire evening in this circle going round and round, hearing more and more that the reason why something is being done is because it\u2019s being done. This is absolutely pointless. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EThe contents of a cigarette can be harmful in multiple ways. Cigarettes contain many, many different chemicals, none of which are regulated without the context of these regulations. Cigarettes contain arsenic. Cigarettes contain tar. Anyone who\u2019s spent any time in a pathology lab, as I did during my medical training, knows intimately what tar causes, because we\u2019ve all had that experience where you attend a post-mortem with someone who smokes. They crack open the chest, and you see the results of a product whose constituents are totally unregulated. That\u2019s what\u2019s being done here at clause 35. You see tar filling out the lungs. You see what should be soft, pink, elastic lungs\u2014capable of stretching, breathing, and taking in fresh air\u2014have been scarred. They have bullae in them\u2014that means they have big air bubbles in them so they can\u2019t function. They lose their architecture, so they stop moving and they become stiff. People who have that condition say that they can\u2019t breathe out properly, and so they end up feeling like they\u2019re constantly at the top of their breath, unable to breathe out, constantly feeling like they\u2019re hyperventilating. That is the condition that leads to emphysema, which, of course, is so, so harmful to so many people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EMinister, my question is why is this regulation that makes the contents of cigarettes safer being removed, when the fact is that this is one of the most harmful products that there possibly is. I used to be the Minister for Food Safety. There are more regulations on a sandwich than there are on the safety of a cigarette, and you really have to wonder why. Why are you privileging cigarettes, Minister? Why are these products that are the most harmful, having the least regulation on their constituents? It seems like there\u2019s no logical answers in any of our conversations with the Minister. I\u2019d really like to hear this time why it is that you think these products shouldn\u2019t be regulated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u0022e89c11d31ac848f1b6b3f08cadd89bf5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e89c11d31ac848f1b6b3f08cadd89bf5\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to go back to the questions regarding consulting with M\u0101ori. We\u2019ve dealt with the Part 1 changes relating to the response to Treaty obligations, and that was clarified in that initial part. When I referred to continuing to work with M\u0101ori\u2014and I think that\u2019s a collective agreement across the objectives that we\u2019re trying to achieve\u2014we are wanting to ensure that the initiatives that we put in place are targeted to the groups that most need it, and we will continue to do that. The specific format of that will be developed further as we move forward with the recommendations we want to put in place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EThe next part was around the discussions around clause 35. Those clauses relate to the repeal of the denicotinisation, and all of that relates to the actions that we\u2019re doing to repeal the denicotinisation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022433161bbc8ca46f3af32d6a64308d500\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022433161bbc8ca46f3af32d6a64308d500\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Yeah, look, just a short contribution around some of these repeals in Part 2. Really, it\u2019s about what the Minister\u2019s done to address the lack of procedure due to urgency. We have heard her go around in smoke rings in terms of \u201CWe\u2019re repealing it because we\u2019re repealing it.\u201D But this is about who she has talked to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, prior to the election, I have no doubt that she talked to retailers and their association, and I suspect\u2014and I would invite the Minister to stand up and say it\u2019s not the case that she spoke to the tobacco industry either through lobbyists or directly; and, if she didn\u2019t do that, stand up and say so. But since the election, how has she balanced that one-sided view? Has she spoken in person? Has she received an oral submission from Action on Smoking and Health? Has she received an oral submission from the Cancer Society? Has she received a submission from schools? My colleague Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick mentioned iwi and hap\u016B, who are disproportionately affected by this. Has she received evidence about this reform in respect of women\u2019s health?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo these reforms\u2014particularly those ones in Part 2 which are rolling back the fundamental parts of the reforms that the prior Government put in place. So there\u2019s two parts to my question. Can you rule out the fact that you essentially are doing what you were lobbied to do pre-election by the tobacco industry? Rule it out if you didn\u2019t do it. Secondly, since then, what have you done to listen to the other side of the argument in terms of how you implement your election promises? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u00228988f86500134d90b3a11209480ce901\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228988f86500134d90b3a11209480ce901\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m more than happy to respond to the member regarding my engagement with the retail sector, which I did have none in reference to that; I have not met with any lobbyists, tobacco lobbyists, or any tobacco organisations\u2014and I provide that assurance repeatedly. I have met with Action on Smoking and Health on two occasions, and I have met just this last week with the Cancer Society, and I will continue to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u002259653664d3b34858aa9b7a5d981f412f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002259653664d3b34858aa9b7a5d981f412f\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E My next question relates to clause 36. Clause 36 amends the regulations passed in 2021 that enabled product testing for tobacco. So we\u2019re no longer talking about denicotinisation here. What we\u2019re talking about is testing on whether or not the product is what it says it is, and it enables us to know how much of harmful constituents are in the cigarettes. I do want to know why it is that this section is being revoked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EIt seems to me that there are a lot of products on the shelves that are far less harmful than cigarettes that the Government does choose to regulate. So, of course, mussels would be an example. Now, you might think mussels are harmless, but they\u2019re filter-feeders and they can be full of viruses. So mussels that you eat in New Zealand have a product testing regime. And they get minced up at the Institute of Environmental Science and Research in Porirua and cultured for viruses and other pathogens. But why is it that we\u2019re revoking product testing regulations for tobacco\u2014for cigarettes? That seems very strange when cigarettes are far more harmful than mussels. How can this be the case?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EWe must have product testing regimes for all sorts of things. Some members opposite may have had a career as a crash test dummy in the past\u2014product testing for seatbelts. But it seems like that approach where we keep people safe, keep consumers safe by making sure that the products have in them what they say they have\u2014an approach that the Government is removing just for tobacco. So why is that the case? I think we need to have some answers there, because it seems to me that all sorts of things could go wrong with cigarettes, and they get inhaled right into a very sensitive part of your body. It\u2019s not like a skin cream or something. It just goes right into your internal organs, and then it could contain anything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EIn fact, we know that sometimes products do get spiked with things. We saw that happen with vapes in the United States, and people went to the ICU because of this. So the way in which these products are used, it goes straight into an internal organ, it can be incredibly harmful, and yet it seems like the Minister sees fit to remove processes for checking that these products are safe. I think I\u2019ve heard multiple times that Minister say in the House that she has an approach that is empathetic to smokers, and I do want to understand from her why is she putting smokers, then, in harm\u2019s way, and taking away protections that would mean (a) that these products could be tested and safer from the perspective of consumers, but also would have allowed enforcement of the denicotinisation regime that\u2019s in there. So I\u2019m very interested to hear from the Minister on clause 36.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u0022209d3cd752be4349a5743c27609cd888\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022209d3cd752be4349a5743c27609cd888\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I can just provide assurance that clause 36 testing relates specifically to the testing for the low nicotine rates only.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022 data-id=\u00229c746944fde24f54b050fd89c2b669ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c746944fde24f54b050fd89c2b669ef\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. The aspects that I would like to touch on tonight with the Minister pertains to clause 29, which is about repealing the smoke-free generation. I\u2019ve got two aspects which relate to this clause\u2014which I hope, Madam Chair, you will give me the ability to ask both of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003ESo it feels, frankly, rather out of it to stand in the Chamber tonight, in 2024, when we as humans have seemingly come so far in terms of our knowledge and understanding of what harms our people, to be then debating a bill that goes so far in the opposite direction that health professionals are describing it as being anti-health. But here we are, this Government\u2019s 100-day plan, and this is what it\u2019s delivering for Kiwis: greater access to tobacco companies to harm our people, greater access to delivering nicotine addiction to what was intended to be our smokefree generation, and higher nicotine levels to ensure that that addiction sticks. Because this is my first contribution to this bill, I would like it on the record, alongside my colleagues on this side of the Chamber, that I find this bill abhorrent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EI want to pick up with the Minister on clause 29, and it\u2019s specifically about the repeal of the prohibition on sale, delivery, and supply of smoked tobacco products to the smoke-free generation. I can\u2019t help but be amused by the opposition continually reiterating that the speakers on this side of the House are speaking so passionately. I\u2019m amused by that in relation to this this particular clause, because it tells me that the very real, actual implications for the health of our people\u2014particularly our young people\u2014of this bill has not quite sunk in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EWhen more people smoke, more people die. That\u2019s the reality, it\u2019s the evidence, and it would be helpful if all of us in this House cared passionately about that and tried to prevent the harm rather than enable it. So I would love to hear the Minister share with us the advice she\u2019s received on current modelling of how many more deaths per year to the end of the year 2030 will be caused by smoking if the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Amendment Act is repealed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EI also want to touch on the fact that the cost is not simply an emotional and physical one of preventable loss of loved ones. It comes at the immense economic cost to the public health system. So, equally, I\u2019d love to hear from the Minister: how much does smoking-related harm cost the health system each year, and what factors, if any, were considered, other than revenue, when she assessed that the smoke-free repeals were an urgent matter to be part of the Government\u2019s 100-day plan?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003EMadam Chair, the other aspect that I want to touch on\u2014and I hope you\u2019ll allow me to finish this part\u2014is that in any part of ill-thought legislation, which comes through this House so often, it\u2019s the externalities which are overlooked. Now, for those members who may not be aware of externalities, it\u2019s those costs to society that are overlooked in any economic activity. I would like to hear from the Minister her take on how the health of people and the environment overlap in what she\u2019s seeking to do, or what her Government is seeking to do, I should say, in repealing the Smokefree Aotearoa 2025 legislation as part of these clauses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003ENow, I want to pick up on this because there\u2019s a number of very serious environmental issues that come from the proliferation of cigarettes in the environment, and just one of those is that, actually, cigarettes make up one of the most common forms of litter worldwide, and, obviously, in New Zealand, it\u2019s no different here. When they\u2019re improperly disposed of, they can accumulate in urban areas, in parks, on our beaches\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3b12662108a45d888d89f59efe9fedb\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Would the member like to call, to finish?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbe09df4fae1464e9be59bd2d4da8e95\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM\u003C/span\u003E: I would love to call again, Madam Chair. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b4f21efb8ad4195b8ae72c96e41a270\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, and just a reminder\u2014because I\u2019ve heard the other speakers talk about it today in committee stage\u2014that there\u2019s an opportunity for questions rather than filling the time. If you indicate that there\u2019s further questions, members, we can take further questions, rather than actually fill the time with speeches.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3bfbef8a59349bc843921b51d0ac0d8\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM\u003C/span\u003E: Great. Should I continue, Madam Chair, or should I pause? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235d94ba6ccd2439da272998059a09edb\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: You can continue, but what I would like you to do is to actually ask some questions of the Minister, rather than fill the time actually speaking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002246269786-ecb4-40e2-972a-e287c495bdec\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232dd7682ef8044758caaf37d53057cd7\u0022\u003ELAN PHAM\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. So what I\u2019m really concerned about with these cigarette filters which are in the environment is that it\u2019s those harmful chemical and toxins, it\u2019s the heavy metals, and it\u2019s the carcinogens. Now, why I want to give that context is because the question for the Minister is that there are other requirements in the bill that have reporting requirements to the Director-General of Health. So I want to know what advice the Minister has sought about the environmental impacts of cigarette filters being in the environment, and also if she is considering advice from the Department of Conservation, because wildlife has many impacts from these cigarette filters which end up in the environment\u2014and also from the Ministry for the Environment. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022 data-id=\u002253ee27f1d821400bbb84dbd4c6d6e103\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253ee27f1d821400bbb84dbd4c6d6e103\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019d like to speak to a tabled amendment on the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Amendment Bill. This proposed amendment relates to clause 29 on page 7. I seek for the Associate Minister of Health and for the committee to consider deleting clause 29, page 7, lines 1 and 2, and that relates to our smoke-free generation. I struggle to understand the benefit of removing the protections for the smoke-free generation. I asked the Minister questions related to this, in terms of what cost-benefit analysis has been undertaken by the Minister and her officials into opening up, really, exposure to the smoke-free generation. I build and I tautoko the sentiments of my colleague Lan Pham in trying to understand what analysis has been undertaken on potential health system costs for the repeal and in considering the smoke-free generation now being exposed to tobacco related harm.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EFurther, my last question for the Minister\u2014and I hope we can get some authentic responses\u2014in repealing clause 29 and considering the revenue that will be gained, the revenue from this tobacco excise as a consequence of the repeal, have you given any consideration to the casualties of this legislation and the repeal, that there might be some equity shown to our low socio-economic communities who will take the impact on the front line from the repeal of the smoke-free legislation, rather than just tax cuts for a particular ilk of friends and taxpayers of the Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003ESo those are my questions, and I hope that I can engage in that conversation, because these are important matters as a mother and for the future of New Zealand. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u002229b38738dfd547e39ee2bd12599a3890\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002229b38738dfd547e39ee2bd12599a3890\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I just wanted to touch on the questions that came up before, just in relation to the testing concerns that were raised previously by the member. Existing testing requirements remain, as the concerns were raised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EIn terms of the environmental impact that was questioned before, there were no restrictions on filters in the 2022 Act, so there has been no change in that area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EIn terms of the smoke-free generation, I think we\u2019ve reiterated previously that we are down to 19,000 young smokers, and that\u2019s continuing to track down. I think we are achieving our smoke-free generation without the virtue of this legislation even being in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u002222057e483a434e3ebd617ca4fc3b0182\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002222057e483a434e3ebd617ca4fc3b0182\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E My first point is actually one where I may just not be reading the papers right, but I cannot, for the life of me, find Part 6A, so I would like the Minister to look at clause 37. It says that it revokes Part 6A, which sets out the requirement for the approval as a smoked tobacco retailer, and if they can point me to where that is\u2014it\u2019s been quite a difficult one to track down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI\u2019d also like to ask the Minister to consider the unintended consequences of amending one part of a law that relates to two things\u2014smoking and vaping. So I\u2019d love to know what happens if you have created a regime that\u2019s actually more liberal in the smoking area than it is in the vaping, and you get a sudden movement over into smoking, because it\u2019s less regulated, and you get more people going into the smoking space, which would be absolutely terrible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI take this matter extremely seriously, because I see it as one of the things that may be happening as a consequence of a rush and not looking at unintended consequences, not having the usual processes we have, the comments that we would get in the select committees, the overarching time to consider something like this in the structure of the bill, pulling out part of it, and leaving the other, and coming up with an unintended consequence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI\u2019m going to put this as gravely as I can, and I don\u2019t think I\u2019m being melodramatic. If we have a surge of people dying and an upsurge in smoking, is the Minister prepared to resign? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e4589da0d23e4cc59c19575a2b16f467\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e4589da0d23e4cc59c19575a2b16f467\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Could I just clarify for the member that Part 6A is in the legislation and it covers the requirements for approval as a smoked tobacco retailer, which is\u2014yeah, it\u2019s in the regulations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c4f21c7472047cea12a7f3da25f3d86\u0022\u003EHelen White\u003C/span\u003E: Part 6 is in the regulations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d23fff32939149bb95d1951da121ac30\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u002221d9f61d010e4acb8f943b818b91b534\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221d9f61d010e4acb8f943b818b91b534\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you. Also in the regulations\u2014and for the friends in the Chamber, they are great reading. You can just google \u201Cthe amendments to the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Act 2021\u201D, and there is ample material in there that is being revoked in this bill, and we have really got to do our diligence on it and go through all of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EIn clause 35, we see Subpart 2C is being revoked. Of course, friends will be well aware that that relates to the provisions around product information. Product information is incredibly important because it is the information that guides when harmful products are out on the market, and then sometimes something was wrong in their manufacture, \u201COh, we accidentally made a cigarette that kills you.\u201D, says British American Tobacco, \u201COh, whoops.\u201D They might find that they had constituents in there that weren\u2019t meant to be in there. They might have experiences where a product had been made incorrectly, and therefore they would seek to recall that product. Product information is what you use to do a recall. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EA lot of the questions that I\u2019ve tried to get answers to tonight\u2014and I notice my colleagues in the Greens do, as well\u2014are related to the principle that you\u2019d think would guide sensible regulation. Sensible regulation should be risk-proportionate. We\u2019ve had questions about what the appropriate balance of regulations between tobacco and vaping is because regulation should be risk-proportionate. So it seems to me that this lack of provision around product information is bizarre, because with cigarettes, you breathe the smoke into your internal organs, and yet if you are selling a pottle of yoghurt, you need to have product recall information in there because it could give you an upset tummy. So where is the risk proportionality when it comes to removing product information provisions in regulations passed in 2021 from this bill, when, of course, we know that those regulations are incredibly important. Minister, this isn\u2019t a matter of tobacco control; this is a matter of consumer protection. So I\u2019m uncertain why it is, no matter what our different ideologies are about tobacco control, that you\u2019ve chosen to remove that. I\u2019d really like to have information on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t believe my earlier question about product testing was actually answered, because, of course, nicotine is an element of the safety of the product. High nicotine, of course, can cause nausea and vomiting. There can be a very adverse reaction if the level of nicotine in tobacco is too high.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003ESo in clause 35, whether it relates to my current question, which is about product information, or my earlier question about product testing, it seems like there is an unawareness of the actual implications of revoking these subparts, and it really leaves consumers in New Zealand incredibly exposed to unsafe products. I would like to hear from the Minister on that matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022c593929050dc497cb0a4d8cb68372047\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c593929050dc497cb0a4d8cb68372047\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I would like to address Part 2, clause 29 as well, which is repealing the smoke-free generation. I refer to my colleague H\u016Bhana Lyndon\u2019s request or amendment to get rid of that. But while we\u2019re still talking about it, I also want to congratulate the Government for their campaign slogan to \u201Cget back on track\u201D, because it was sort of, you know, a good slogan and it got them elected. I\u2019d like to give them a gift in relation to that. I think your new slogan has got to be\u2014because it\u2019s such a good one\u2014\u201CBack on baccy\u201D. I mean, \u201CYou can do this: back on baccy.\u201D You could heckle us with it, because, really, that\u2019s what you\u2019re all about, isn\u2019t it? \u201CBack on baccy\u201D. \u201CBack on baccy\u2014let\u2019s kill a few more.\u201D So, you know, go for it guys!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1e089ebcacc440f9e85d0ae2dbc4203\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: So now could we have a question for the Minister, please?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f56116b6f88e491fac318ce9dea0999d\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: You have a question. You have a question\u2014my apologies, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a191831f0814fe2af6509b9d6525a91\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: No, don\u2019t apologise. I\u2019m just trying to keep the committee on track.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7d8a6b90820499bb7d75b029382480a\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: But the question I have for the Minister is: can she please explain the purpose of clause 23, which repeals section 105, which requires the ministry to conduct a review of smoke-free legislation and policy and prepare a report for the Minister no later than 2029?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7f56f1c69644b8fa001462d366bfd3c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Willis, we\u2019re on Part 2 at the moment. Your question\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bb02a8850094d93892318418d187000\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: This question is relating to Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b3c0df474b74cc08716bcdf95c1e0f6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Can you please relate it to Part 2?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224940c27c00f54d2a978d8be5a306b9c8\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: My question is: why are they scrapping the review and how will doing so allow for effective oversight of our smoke-free targets?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003ENow, this is really, really important because it is the way we deliver evidence-based policy. We need to know what\u2019s happening. Perhaps our colleagues opposite might want to, in addition to adopting \u201Cback on baccy\u201D, adopt the other slogan they could throw at us, that \u201Cignorance is strength\u201D, because this is where they\u2019re going. They really do not want to understand the implications of what they\u2019re trying to do. So I am interested and I would like the Minister to address this. So, just to repeat, I am interested in: why are they scrapping the review of those changes, and how will doing so allow for effective oversight of our smoke-free targets?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EThis is really, really important because if we don\u2019t understand what we\u2019re doing, we can\u2019t review, we can\u2019t change, we can\u2019t change course, we can\u2019t correct course\u2014we\u2019re running blind. We are ignorant. We\u2019re supporting ignorance. I understand that our colleagues opposite, disappointingly, might prefer ignorance, but we don\u2019t. I\u2019m listening to such a learned expression of questions that we\u2019re just not getting any answer to from the Minister. This is really simple stuff. It should not be complicated. It\u2019s not rocket science; it\u2019s just basic policy. So could we please have an answer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022579c6ca323504dc28a962f4ed52fcd09\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022579c6ca323504dc28a962f4ed52fcd09\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana. Thank you, Madam Chair. This is my first opportunity to take a call on what is Part 2. I do have some questions for the Minister that I do hope she will provide an answer for the Chamber. I think that it is really important, because a reminder\u2014this is a bill that is going through committee stage under urgency. We haven\u2019t had an opportunity from the members of the community, who, undoubtedly, will have issues that they would like to have addressed. So I do hope the Minister does address them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EIt does relate to clause 29, which a couple of colleagues have already touched on. It is the repeal of the sections 22 to 26, which is known as the \u201CRepeal of the Smokefree Generation\u201D clauses. I guess when you look at that, it doesn\u2019t immediately become clear. My question to the Minister is around what specific advice or engagement she has had that relates to young people who would be involved, in terms of who would be affected as part of the potential smokefree generation that the Government seems to want to undo.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe reason I am keen to hear the Minister\u2019s thoughts on this is because in contributions earlier in the day, leading up to this point on this bill, there were many reflections made about the select committee process that the parent bill had gone through, and the many, many organisations who submitted as part of that process. Now, naturally, when a piece of legislation is progressing through the House under urgency, with no select committee scrutiny opportunity, that opportunity to the community is gone. So I\u2019m interested to hear what specific advice she has received that relates to those who would be impacted as part of a smoke-free generation, but also, what specific engagement she has had with those individuals, with those young people, as to what their views are around this. I think that\u2019s particularly important, given that this is something that the coalition Government, in the lead-up to the election, didn\u2019t campaign on. So it has come out of the blue for many people, including young people. I think that the Minister being able to provide that opportunity would be quite helpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe other point that I want to refer to is on Subpart 2. This relates to amendments to Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Regulations 2021, specifically, clause 35. My questions are around subparts 2A and 2B that relate to Part 3. My question to the Minister: I did hear her answer around denicotinisation, and that was a response for what is regulation 61A, when it comes to the limits on constituents, or the products within the tobacco product, but I didn\u2019t quite hear from the Minister whether she thought that there was an acceptable reason as to why, even though you set aside denicotinisation, there is still an opportunity to maintain that provision within the regulations. So, it\u2019s not saying that just because denicotinisation is the aim, or the end goal, but wanting to hear from the Minister whether she is prepared to think a bit broader than that, and accept that there are situations where there might be constituent substances that are obviously up to no good, but whether she would resolve from that original position, in light of the information that has been provided to the Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe other is in relation to Subpart 2B, and it is regulation 61B. There are three components within that regulation that relates to the product\u2019s safety requirements. What\u2019s very clear is that there is a process outlined for someone who has a complaint about a product to effectively register and work through. Now, the steps are actually quite clear. Not only are they quite clear, they are also quite detailed in the sense of what they would relate to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ESo my question to Minister is whether she believes that it is appropriate to simply wipe that regulation in its entirety, and, if so, what does she say to the provision of some sort of process to ensure that there is product safety for those that want to raise some concerns? This regulation provides an opportunity for anyone who has an issue about the product safety requirements to effectively engage in a process. By removing that, I\u2019m still not clear, and that\u2019s why I\u2019d like the Minister to respond, as to whether there is a separate process, or whether she is comfortable that the process that\u2019s outlined here is just going to remain in place. Madam Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c55fc021560d4f8abbec70a5ef9eb88a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c55fc021560d4f8abbec70a5ef9eb88a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Tangi Utikere\u2014oh, the honourable Minister. Perhaps we\u2019ll give the Minister a chance, and I\u2019ll come back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u0022c4e37bbee18645ad9d771e7385a62ab3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c4e37bbee18645ad9d771e7385a62ab3\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to touch, first, on the fears about increased smoking as a result of vaping being tightened, and smoking. We\u2019re not changing any other components of the smoking regulations that currently exist\u2014we\u2019re only making amendments to things that are not yet in place. So as we\u2019ve seen a significant turn-round from smoking, I can\u2019t see that there would be any logic to raise alarm about smoking increasing. I\u2019d reiterate again the reference to clause 35 that relates specifically to the testing for the nicotine levels as part of the denicotinisation. All other existing testing programmes are remaining in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022881504d5c77040f8a3942efb069727e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022881504d5c77040f8a3942efb069727e6\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. There are still an outstanding couple of questions that relate to the level of engagement that the Minister has had with young people. So, I am hoping that she will pick up on that. That has given rise to a further question in my own mind around the nature of advice that the Minister has received, not just specifically around the repeal of the smoke-free generation, but in terms of removing those regulations as well, that relate to members of our Pasifika community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EAs a part of the process of the Health Committee that led to this principal piece of legislation, we heard, as members of that committee, a lot of commentary, a lot of personal experience, from members of that particular community of interest. Again, without a select committee process, we don\u2019t have that. So, I am interested in not just the thoughts of young people, but what specific advice has the Minister received in terms of engagement with our Pasifika community, given that Pacific members of this House will want to know that the views they might have in relation to these proposals have been considered. So I look forward, perhaps, to the Minister taking the opportunity to provide not just the response to young people, but to members of our Pasifika community as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022aa8637832d5a472baa00019f09eab716\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aa8637832d5a472baa00019f09eab716\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I\u2019m very pleased to have this opportunity to speak on this\u2014my first chance. I\u2019ve been very keen; I even moved chairs because I\u2019ve taken on board\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9c79ce402394347a1c9534c28860bda\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve been very patient.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260e298bb3a28439bb3cfce771c578025\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: I have heard that a lot throughout my life, I must admit. But I\u2019ve taken on board the feedback from the presiding officers that I should not sit in my allocated seat because I\u2019m not tall enough to be seen\u2014and I get that, so I moved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230a6a35d8bd644ad89437d7a1345bed4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Good advice\u2014I\u2019m short too. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d79902e343a540a895ee96933f75ad65\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah\u2014here we are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6efebba60694cddb141b9827c659ebf\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Just ask your question now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1cfd922455541078bd4538cbb7cd2ef\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: I will.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a625a55ea8e490c888eeefa3c6a4016\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d47f338b81644897bab09845b39ce411\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I am here to ask a question around clause 36, and I don\u2019t believe it\u2019s been touched on. It\u2019s under Subpart 2 of Part 2, \u201CAmendments to Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Regulations 2021\u201D and it revolves around Subpart 4 of Part 3 of those regulations. The reason I want to ask a question about this is because it struck me that as someone who smoked myself and someone who has worked in three different petrol stations in my career\u2014that might not seem relevant, but I\u2019ll explain why. The point being that I have handled a lot of cigarette packets, and in doing so, I know that there are cigarette brands that clearly label on the sides the level of nicotine on the packets. So the point is that nicotine levels are on display already.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ESo forget the debate about whether nicotine should be regulated or reduced, because that\u2019s not actually in this part. This is about the standard of testing, and if we have products\u2014and I\u2019m not going to say brand names, but we do have brands that sell a regular cigarette and a light cigarette. We have brands that have three different types of cigarettes. It might be blue, it might be red, or it might be green, each with different types of strength and each with different levels of nicotine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIn Subpart 4 of Part 3 of these regulations, it clearly outlines a way in which the testing for nicotine can be regulated so that people can have confidence in the information that\u2019s provided. This bill proposes that this testing mechanism\u2014which, again, doesn\u2019t go into restriction; it\u2019s just about testing how that would work\u2014and the bill as proposed by the Minister wants to get rid of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ENow, there\u2019s one particular part here which I think is important. It states that the test for nicotine levels \u201Cmust be independent from the manufacturer or importer of the smoke tobacco product\u201D. I would say that across the board, in terms of regulations and particularly in terms of testing, so that the information available to the consumer is accurate and has integrity, it\u2019s pretty important that it is not done by the manufacturer or the importer of that product. The regulation as it is currently written requires it to be independent. The bill repeals that. So if the House accepts that there are cigarette products already that outline the level of nicotine and that we have a regulation that is currently on the books that requires those producers to independently assess the testing method for that, the bill\u2019s going to get rid of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ESo if the Minister is sincere\u2014as she has said in numerous media interviews and in this House\u2014that she wants to see the use of cigarettes to continue to reduce, surely a big part of that would be to have integrity in the testing methods that outline the level of nicotine. It\u2019s a pretty simple requirement, I would think, and that\u2019s actually only one small part. Subpart 4 of Part 3 of these regulations has one, two, three, four areas talking about products for sale or input: they must be tested, what the testing method is, how the review of the details of the test methodology, testing methods, and compliance\u2014all of that, to me, makes absolute sense and, again, I don\u2019t believe this has been raised. It\u2019s certainly my first contribution and opportunity to talk about it, and I have many questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EI heard, Madam Chair, you give advice to one of my colleagues over here that you would like an exchange. My concern about that, though, is that whilst this is my first chance to contribute to this debate, I have witnessed, both on TV and here in the Chamber\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb8c399245504cea98a62737369650a5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: If the member wants to seek another call, I\u2019ll give you an opportunity to ask. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c02bd7042b674b46a4ad145e29306fac\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214e940b4edff4271b5e72e0ea6f27401\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Hon Keiran McAnulty, you can now ask those questions, but make it questions and not\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022390390\u0022 data-id=\u00229e4abbcbdd6d4e758b401afd8fb3d9f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022390390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229e4abbcbdd6d4e758b401afd8fb3d9f3\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: I would like, Madam Chair, the Minister to commit to an exchange, because on a number of occasions we\u2019ve been encouraged by presiding officers to do that. But, equally, on a number of occasions I\u2019ve seen members attempt it and the Minister not play ball. So I\u2019m just touching on your advice to the colleague earlier, when you said that you\u2019d like them not to fill the time, but if the Minister isn\u2019t going to engage in an exchange, what option have we got?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u002291709416666c4520a47782e7b39b1dae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002291709416666c4520a47782e7b39b1dae\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. This is also\u2014like my colleague\u2014my first contribution on this part of the bill. I\u2019m interested in finding out more about what is meant by clauses 39 and 40 and Schedule 1 and explaining my analysis of these clauses. I\u2019d like to really come back to a statement that the Minister has made a number of times that it\u2019s fine to do this repeal of the old legislation: nothing changes because nothing was in place. That\u2019s my set up to the question\u2014this idea that nothing was in place. Therefore, I\u2019m asking why Schedule 1 is needed. Now, let me talk you through that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EClause 39 says that Schedule 1 of the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Regulations and Regulated Products Regulations 2021 is amended by two things. It revokes clause 7. Clause 7 relates to smoked tobacco products received on 21 September 2023, or subsequently. Then it says that Schedule 1 is also to have a new part inserted to that, and that new part is Schedule 1 of this bill. There\u2019s a related amendment, in clause 40, to Schedule 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWe go to Schedule 1 of this bill. It has some definitions about commencement, but then it\u2019s also about the refund of the fee paid by an applicant to be an approved smoked tobacco retailer. What that says is that \u201CThis clause applies in respect of a fee paid before the commencement date\u201D\u2014the commencement date \u201Cmeans the date on which section 42 of the amendment Act comes into force.\u201D, and the amendment Act is this bill that\u2019s in front of us\u2014\u201Cby an applicant to be an approved smoked tobacco retailer under regulation 82\u2014regulation 82 is about fees and it sets out that there can be fees\u2014\u201Cand Schedule 8\u201D\u2014Schedule 8 is the list of the fees: what they are in relation to the standard regulation format\u2014\u201Cof the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Regulations\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E Then it says\u2014and this is the interesting part; this is what my question is about and why this is needed, given the Minister\u2019s previous compacts that nothing has happened yet\u2014\u201CThe Director-General may refund the fee paid (inclusive of goods and services tax) in whole or in part, if the Director-General considers that it is fair and reasonable to do so in the circumstances.\u201D That fee, which we find in Schedule 8 of the regulations, is $1,475. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EI want to know if there has been any analysis or advice on how many of those fees have been paid, how many might have to be paid back, and, most importantly, how this all fits with the Minister\u2019s point that nothing is really in play yet. There may be some simple explanations for that, but I would very much like to hear them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen, of course, it\u2019s relevant as well to pause on clause 40, which is that Schedule 8 is amended. As I mentioned before, Schedule 8 of these regulations are the fees, where we find that $1,475 figure. It is \u201CIn Schedule 8, revoke the items relating to an applicant to be an approved smoked tobacco retailer, an applicant for approval of a smoked tobacco product, and an applicant for temporary approval of a smoked tobacco product that cannot meet product requirements\u201D. That is one of the applications that Schedule 1 of the bill refers to, but then there are some other bits in there, and I presume that they relate to matters that are not already in traction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EAs I said, I\u2019m interested if the Minister could please answer those questions regarding how the fees work, and I see she\u2019s going to get to her feet, so I appreciate that. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u00226e98759e24454a149b89dac4ad114ece\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e98759e24454a149b89dac4ad114ece\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Just to revisit the queries about clause 36, again, that testing related, as we\u2019ve said before, specifically to the denicotinisation testing levels that was part of the evaluating. It doesn\u2019t change any other testing that currently exists.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EIn relation to the queries about the refund of fees, this was to address the situation\u2014pushing through this repeal, in terms of what we\u2019re trying to achieve\u2014that they had to acknowledge the fact that fees had been paid by retailers who had applied to be approved retailers under the legislation. They had paid their fees. I\u2019m not sure of the exact numbers\u2014in the proximity of about 400. There was no mechanism by which that money could be repaid. Therefore, this amendment related to the ability to be able to refund those fees that had been paid in the event this legislation goes through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00224080774e0a104382b36a42dbdfc4c7cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224080774e0a104382b36a42dbdfc4c7cf\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to call the Hon Kieran McAnulty because I committed to give you a chance to ask your extra questions once the Minister had\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022b106e4f191824d64b15e5d6bd5a29790\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b106e4f191824d64b15e5d6bd5a29790\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. My next question is directly related to that response from the Minister, which, frankly, was totally inadequate because it is not appropriate\u2014or at least adequate\u2014for a Minister to stand up, ignore the question, and say that these regulations are for this reason, when the question was why not keep them to enable integrity in the system. I acknowledged in my question why they were there, but this entire subpart does not mention\u2014I\u2019m going to struggle here; you just roll off\u2014denicotinisation is it? Nailed it. Right\u2014denicotinisation\u2014it doesn\u2019t mention that. That\u2019s in another part. I acknowledged that in my question. So I\u2019m sorry, but that may have been a response but it definitely wasn\u2019t an answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EMy next question to the Minister is\u2014and I hope I get an answer not only to my first question but to this one\u2014can she envisage, after reading all the advice that she\u2019s referred to in the House, that someone might wish to wean themself off nicotine by going through the grades of cigarettes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ENow, we see that with vape products. I\u2019m going through that journey myself at the moment. I started here, I\u2019m here, and eventually, one day, I\u2019m sure I\u2019ll get there. But I\u2019ve reduced my nicotine. You can do it through cigarettes, which is why I said what I did in my first contribution. Certain brands of cigarettes have different levels of nicotine\u2014presumably to allow people, if they so choose, to reduce the nicotine in them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ECan the Minister envisage that that is something that they would do; if she can, why wouldn\u2019t she keep this? Her answer was that this was supposed to be about denicotinisation. That doesn\u2019t stand when this entire subpart doesn\u2019t mention that once. This could stay in there and not undermine the intent of this bill. This could stay in here and give people that wish to reduce their nicotine intake\u2014which the Minister has said is her objective\u2014confidence that the information on the side of the packet is actually accurate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ENow, in my first contribution, I referred specifically to regulation 63B(b). Now I want to refer to regulation 63D(2). We\u2019re talking about how \u201Ca manufacturer of smoked tobacco products must test a representative range of samples and account for any variance.\u201D So my first question is: what\u2019s wrong with that? Why would we not want manufacturers to take every best possible effort to ensure that the information they have on the packet is accurate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ENow, I anticipate the Minister may say, well, that information is now irrelevant and has been for some time because for a long time cigarette packages couldn\u2019t be displayed in retail outlets. I accept that. As I said, I\u2019ve spent many years working in petrol stations. I know how it works. But this information is available online. People that take giving up smoking seriously actually look for this information. I don\u2019t accept the initial response, but I\u2019ve got two questions there in addition to my first question. Hopefully, the Minister could see that this is a genuine query, and, hopefully, the committee gets a genuine response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00226e505341bf824f6aa2f4bbe134126470\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e505341bf824f6aa2f4bbe134126470\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Camilla Belich, and I want this to be really\u2014we\u2019ve been on a couple of original tracks in the last couple of speeches; over the course of the night, some other speeches have got really repetitive, so I\u2019m looking for new questions, specific questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u002220d1977ec06f4d7ba2baa9d78666893f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002220d1977ec06f4d7ba2baa9d78666893f\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair\u2014point taken. What I did want to mainly focus on in my contribution, which I don\u2019t believe has been covered to date, is Schedule 2, which inserts a new form 5 into the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297956e88744c43e988b9942d1f49fcfe\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right. I was interested in that too, actually, yeah.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0b453eb37e1447c9ef84ea2f6bcce0f\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, well, there\u2019s a lot we can say about form 5. This is a really complex bill. This is a complex piece of legislation. It is not a simple repeal bill. It is a repeal bill of an amendment bill that has also been previously amended subsequent to its initial passing from the 1990 bill. So it\u2019s hard to make sense of this bill, actually, and the bit that is most difficult is the part that we\u2019re on at the moment, which is\u2014and I can see you smiling, because I know that you\u2019re all trying to be making sense of this bill, and I am as well. I was looking at doing amendments last night, and it is complex. I think it\u2019s a shame, actually, that this wasn\u2019t subject to select committee, because I doubt very much, outside of the people in this Chamber, where people are very interested in this, specifically Part 2, whether anyone actually understands exactly what this bill does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI won\u2019t be able to cover all of Part 2, but I did want to just go over, before I get on to form 5, some of the different enactments that this amends. So it doesn\u2019t only amend the principal Act; it also amends the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products (Smoked Tobacco) Amendment Act. It also amends the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Regulations and the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Amendment Regulations 2023.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe one that I wanted to focus on was clause 41(2), which inserts new form 5. Now, when I first saw this, I thought they\u2014and when I say \u201Cthey\u201D, I mean the Government, or the Associate Minister of Health\u2014must be intending to replace an existing form 5 with a new form 5. However, when I looked up the regulations, I saw that the forms that are in the existing regulations actually only go up to form 4. So form 5\u2014and I\u2019d be interested if the Minister has any more information on this\u2014is actually a brand new form that inserts, very surprisingly, additional regulatory requirements on tobacco retailers. I assume, from reading the small amount of information that is in the bill in relation to form 5\u2014and requires the businesses to actually provide a number of pieces of information in relation to the tobacco products that they sell annually. So it\u2019s an annual return. The previous forms I think are of a similar nature, but this is not a replacement; it\u2019s actually, as I see it, a new form\u2014but happy to be corrected by the Minister. I see she\u2019s getting some advice there, and I\u2019d be interested to know that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s quite a difficult form to understand. The main thing that I wasn\u2019t aware of\u2014and, actually, if we go back to the primary clause in 41(2), we can see that there is a replacement, also, in forms 3 and 4, to replace \u201CUPC\u201D with \u201CEAN/UPC.\u201D Now, I didn\u2019t know what that was. I\u2019m different to my colleague Mr McAnulty: I\u2019ve never been a smoker. I\u2019ve never smoked a cigarette; I don\u2019t know anything about them. I had to describe, when a cigarette came up in conversation, to my children, what it was\u2014you know, a cylindrical tube that you might\u2019ve seen with a tiny fire on it that people smoke, that have smoke around them. You know, that is the reality of the new generation. It could be that everyone had no idea what a cigarette was, and the simple idea of them is just bizarre to the next generation. I think that was my colleague Ayesha Verrall\u2019s intention, to really have a new generation that felt that way about cigarette smoking, because there\u2019s really nothing good about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m interested. I looked up UPC and EAN/UPC, I have to admit, it was while I was in the Chamber; I haven\u2019t had a lot of time to look at it. I believe it\u2019s barcodes. But I asked the Minister: what is the difference between a UPC and an EAN/ UPC? Why has it been amended in forms 3 and 4, and, then, why have we inserted a new form 5? And why does the Minister require additional information annually from businesses that sell tobacco products, in form 5, or have I misunderstood that? And is form 5 some other thing that isn\u2019t an additional requirement that businesses need? So I\u2019m interested in the Minister\u2019s response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u0022488becd6a4bb432ea978211fe95d699b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022488becd6a4bb432ea978211fe95d699b\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to confirm that all of the regulations that were quoted regarding the testing of nicotine levels\u2014all of those regulations relate to the product approval process around the denicotinisation or low nicotine limits, just to clarify that that\u2019s why it can\u2019t be left in, because it relates specifically to the regulations for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EClarifying the last member\u2019s question about Schedule 2, the new form actually has nothing to do with the tobacco products. It was a correction of a misconsequence of the original legislation, and it was about vaping reporting. It was just amending the form requirements, and that\u2019s why that\u2019s been inserted in there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa32dcec1c9240e98a21cacf7483343d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa32dcec1c9240e98a21cacf7483343d\u0022\u003ERYAN HAMILTON (National\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022577b5765aa0f4a888d02c2cd499b7f2b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022577b5765aa0f4a888d02c2cd499b7f2b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to call Steve Abel, but I\u2019m going to be very vigilant. We have had some good questions in the last couple of calls, but I\u2019m going to be very vigilant about where we\u2019re going because we\u2019ve had quite a bit of time on this part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u00221edd85e8fd8a453aaf407929a14f288f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221edd85e8fd8a453aaf407929a14f288f\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I specifically want to ask the Minister, under Subpart 2, \u201CAmendments to Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Regulations\u201D, about clause 35. There\u2019s already been some speakers point out the problem of taking away requirements on the testing, but I specifically want to talk about removal of Subpart 2C, which \u201Csets out information that the manufacturer or importer must provide with an application for approval for sale, import, or manufacture of a smoked tobacco product.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThe question relates to\u2014surely, I want to have clarity from the Minister\u2014what is the reason for removing a clause that gives clarity on the importation or manufacture, and to what extent will that affect the monitoring and our understanding of what importers and manufacturers are doing in this country in terms of tobacco?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287b833968eb540f787fad2a88805fbc0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Abel, I understand from the Minister that she\u2019s answered that particular question. There\u2019s quite a number of interchanges in the Chamber tonight, where people are moving in and out of the Chamber, so I would suggest, perhaps, you might want to look to a previous answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2a9599f315e4bbcae3c1b6be1eb1410\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: I have another question\u2014[Interruption] I have another question. There\u2019s another question, sorry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218204a59f07b4bddb9bca69522486b44\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, Mr Abel has still got the call at the moment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022436894903234439685a860bdfe78c1c4\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, mate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022085ee5c800af44a1858e852ef944df1f\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: No, it\u2019s fine. So it\u2019s related to a specific point that was asked already of the Minister but has not yet been answered, which is as to the impact and the regulation of the impact of the waste tobacco product\u2014my colleague Lan Pham asked about this\u2014which primarily manifests in terms of the filters, which are plastic and, in their hundreds of thousands, and possibly millions, end up in the environment. Most of them end up getting washed down drains when people stub out their cigarettes on the ground, and a lot of them end up in our marine environment and end up being consumed by marine life and fish, and so forth. This is actually a major environmental problem\u2014a major source of plastic pollution in the environment. I\u2019d like to ask the Minister, in terms of that question, what her response is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u0022101956d58b7745849c79ecb7c600a65b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022101956d58b7745849c79ecb7c600a65b\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E As I\u2019ve previously stated, there was no filters restriction on the current legislation. That\u2019s not relevant to this amendment that we\u2019re seeking. There\u2019s nothing in there currently, and we\u2019re not undoing anything that\u2019s in there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u002286eb83d14cba4fecbb7add89e8e28e64\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002286eb83d14cba4fecbb7add89e8e28e64\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I would like to propose a new clause 25 via a tabled amendment. As I do this, I just remind this committee and the Minister that we\u2019re speaking here about a product that kills half the people who use it. Anybody listening to this debate at home would have heard me speak about the realities of funerals, because when people die from a product, there needs to be a funeral. So the amendment that I\u2019m proposing is around compensation for victims.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWhen I look at the wording, \u201Ccompensation\u201D is a bit of a difficult word to use, because there is nothing that can compensate for a loss of life or for the health implications or for the loss of time that family members have when somebody\u2019s life is cut short, or they are sick or ill or unwell or just not present because they\u2019re smoking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESo compensation\u2019s not an ideal word, but it\u2019s the word that I landed on, and then the word \u201Cvictims\u201D. The victims of smoking, they are victims of many things. They are victims of tobacco companies. They are victims of the misinformation of those companies. They are victims of advertising, of marketing. They are victims of insidious marketing through films\u2014that has happened decades ago, for some of the people who still currently smoke, where there were pictures of people smoking on films\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022265d8721005247b98048c3a6d4bbc8fb\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Could I just inform the member that that amendment was part of Part 1, and so if the member has any questions on Part 2\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d163afa7f1c1467690f117a277a87ce7\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair, if I may, the proposed amendment inserts clause 24 and a new part 5, Subpart 8, and we have not, as I understand it, come to that part. So I have not had the opportunity to speak to this, or for the Minister to consider this suggestion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca8ab8d978f54fbab48558ae12b1eeec\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it is Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3b6023f340149ac935331550433d332\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Madam Chair. May I just ask for an explanation on that, because my understanding is that this goes into a new Part 5, Subpart 8, which is not in Part 1, so I\u2019m not quite clear on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022201e8631ce114d6e83298abca9ff6273\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re talking about \u201CAmendments to principal Act.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022814fc7c6cc124a7d99b666c29906afa4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022814fc7c6cc124a7d99b666c29906afa4\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Speaking to the point of order, Madam Chair. I think the issue is that this is a new section that\u2019s been introduced by the member in her amendment. The primary Act finishes at clause 24. This is inserting a new clause 25. The existing clause 25 is in Part 2, and, therefore, the member didn\u2019t speak about the amendment in the previous part and intended to speak at the appropriate time in Part 2. I appreciate that it\u2019s difficult for members obviously not as expert as some of the Clerks in where their correct place is, but I just\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228471fd4d5cc4577baf2cffdbc25eeb9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: So I\u2019ve just taken some advice. To the member, regardless of how the amendment was worded, if it relates to the principal Act, it relates to Part 1, and that\u2019s the advice that I\u2019ve received, so yeah.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2e8a4314efd4fe4b36642b97b245b30\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2e8a4314efd4fe4b36642b97b245b30\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Speaking to that point of order, just to clarify, I accept that if that\u2019s your ruling that the member can\u2019t speak on it. However, the member, perhaps, was waiting for the appropriate time, because clause 25 is in Part 2 of the Act, and so it may be\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022636d26e73108495aa4f6e6c64f684cd6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: So it is my ruling that it does relate to the principal Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022 data-id=\u0022514210b1e1064244a938e0551b599253\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022514210b1e1064244a938e0551b599253\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022738a36df78c44a4d865f5a7065083d9e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b1beba1eb5b5447eb158f9d339808675\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E tabled amendment to delete clause 29 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022506c618935cf4455bf95ebed484f167b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022506c618935cf4455bf95ebed484f167b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that H\u016Bhana Lyndon\u2019s\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022f77d4fad43a04765a2cbb0aa3a51d2b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f77d4fad43a04765a2cbb0aa3a51d2b5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226be5f8213547432cb1a82324380deace\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00229233d9eb78e74f72b7c97dcead6efa54\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229233d9eb78e74f72b7c97dcead6efa54\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Now, members, we have to take a vote on Schedule 1 where there\u2019s no debate. The question is Schedule 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022df4baa864cfe400e9402e35eaa0a4279\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022da95be5df84641998b1b76f60c91acb6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da95be5df84641998b1b76f60c91acb6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Now we are up to Schedule 2, no debate. The question is Schedule 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a05095e5857f490095f560ac4781c007\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002258a5717af33e43c3a3a1f7476d509102\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 3 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022a6e132ab16a64be4bce9b28b8c643194\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a6e132ab16a64be4bce9b28b8c643194\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to our final debate, clauses 1 to 3. This is the debate on clause 1 to 3: \u201CTitle\u201D, \u201CCommencement\u201D, and \u201CPrincipal Act\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u0022a718116133c948bb9904bffff15982ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a718116133c948bb9904bffff15982ef\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019d really like to ask the Associate Minister of Health the Hon Casey Costello just about the title, Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products (Smoked Tobacco) Amendment Act 2022; just the rationale for saying \u201CRegulated Products\u201D, because everything that I\u2019ve heard in the House tonight would suggest that there is a great deal of un-regulation. We\u2019ve heard contributions from members about the difference between alcohol products and nicotine products; we\u2019ve heard about the lack of regulation relating to consumer safety concerns; and, basically, the tone of the debate has actually been a sense of a deregulation of the market\u2014or, certainly, of what was going to happen under the principal Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m really curious as to the words \u201CRegulated Products\u201D. I\u2019m wondering if the Minister shares my concern that that is, I would say, a misleading word in the context of this bill because the effect of the bill is not really to regulate; the effect of the bill is to broaden the scope of the way the sector is able to work\u2014certainly what was going to come into effect when the principal Act came into effect. So that\u2019s my first question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EMy second question is around the words \u201CSmokefree Environments\u201D, because the suggestion is that this bill somehow contributes to making environments smoke-free or more smoke-free, and, again, all the evidence would suggest that the opposite is true; that we\u2019ve, for example, seen tabled amendments that would say perhaps there could be carve-outs to some of the provisions for national parks. We\u2019ve heard about environmental concerns in the environment of what happens with tobacco stubbed-out cigarettes; we\u2019ve heard about the fact that there may not be a new generation of smoke-free New Zealanders. So the question is: is the word \u201CSmokefree\u201D correct and also \u201CSmokefree Environments\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESo that, for me, makes, actually, the whole title of this bill really problematic because it seems to me that it does the opposite of what has been said that it\u2019s supposed to be doing in the House. That, combined with the purpose, also gives a bit of a misleading impression of what is going to be achieved by this bill, because anybody who just picked this up or read it or perhaps wasn\u2019t a lawyer might think, \u201CGreat, this is something that is going to help us to get to our smoke-free targets more quickly.\u201D But all of the evidence that we have heard\u2014and the evidence has come from this side of the House, because I have not heard any evidence from the Minister tonight; I have only heard circular arguments, as have my colleagues, which is why we are continuing this interrogation to say, \u201CWhat is her scale of ambition?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWhy does the title seem to belie what the impact\u2014the true impact\u2014of this legislation is? It does raise the question of whether this bill and the Minister\u2019s statements around it about wanting to reduce smoking at a fast pace are actually sincere because the only evidence that we\u2019ve heard for her to say that she\u2019s intending to reach smoke-free targets is the fact that the track record has already been good. We haven\u2019t heard anything about advancing or accelerating or getting to a whole new generation of smoke-free New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESo those two questions for the Minister: why are the words \u201CRegulated Products\u201D even in the title; and why are the words \u201CSmokefree Environments\u201D? Bearing in mind that nothing that she has said has reassured us that this is going to make anything free of smoke and/or protect our environment from smoke and from the residue of what happens when people smoke, which is cigarette butts going into the environment\u2014things that certainly don\u2019t make for a smoke-free environment. So those are my two questions to the Minister, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u0022d5dd4f8f828b4063805fa2620658f03c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d5dd4f8f828b4063805fa2620658f03c\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Just to reassure the member: it\u2019s the title of the existing Act, and the bill will not change the title of the existing Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u002251c982ef52444a46bb56bab228871639\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002251c982ef52444a46bb56bab228871639\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you. I\u2019d like to take an opportunity in this portion of the debate to speak to my colleague Rachel Boyack\u2019s amendment to the title. I think it\u2019s a very astute one. Her amendment is: after clause 1, where it says \u201CProducts\u201D, to insert \u201CIncreasing Health Expenditure\u201D to the title of this bill, because that is exactly what this bill will do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EWe know very well from the detailed research that was done when the 2022 Act was brought in that the underlying bill, the bill that\u2019s being repealed, would have saved $5.25 billion in health expenditure over the period studied. I had the privilege of being the Minister of Health and I am aware that many of the members in this House would have campaigned on the pressures that our health system face, and they are considerable\u2014$5.25 billion would go an awful long way in our health system. Also, it\u2019s not only important for saving our health system money to be able to take care of people but it is very important to the workers in our health system, because they want to see that the resources are being used to their absolute maximum possibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EIf I just put into context some of the way in which funds are spent in the health system: spending on general practice is approximately $2 billion a year. So $5.25 billion goes an awful way\u2014of course, general practice is partly privately funded as well\u2014to delivering more care for people. When we increased operations that were done in public hospitals, those sorts of commitments were in the hundreds of millions. So taking $5.25 billion out of the health system, making that unavailable to fund our workers in our hospitals, our workers in the community, the resources and consumables that we need\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b486a1262ca43928b2526753901b476\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Thank you, Madam Chair. Look, the title and commencement piece is a very narrow debate around the title specifically, and a potential new alternative. Speakers\u2019 ruling 130/2 is clear that any amendment must be a serious or objective description of the bill, rather than an attempt to criticise its contents. The last two minutes have been nothing but a criticism of the contents of the bill, as put forward by this member in her contribution so far.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228a53c7814cc4f5e83c6d016a06ee222\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: To the point of order, Madam Chair. Of course, the financial implications\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ef200b702d54852adec89ec31a7478e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Just one moment. Yeah, so one of the things that we\u2019ve done throughout these urgency sessions is said that because there\u2019s no select committee, we\u2019ve allowed a bit more debate and a bit more scope. But I also would like the member to just bring it back more closely to the title, without expanding too much on that topic. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd29c84708024e99a869af75d51badbd\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciate the generosity of the ruling. So the amendment that my colleague Rachel Boyack is proposing is that the title is amended to say \u201CIncreasing Health Expenditure\u201D. I think it\u2019s important because legislation should do what it says on the tin. The bill that is being repealed was the subject of a long period of study. We were advised that it would save $5 billion of health expenditure; it is now being repealed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EIt seems to me that the people at home have the right to understand in plain English what is being done. One of the major consequences on a health system that is cash-strapped is that this bill will increase health expenditure. So why shouldn\u2019t it say that? That is the impact. The Minister has told us it\u2019s not going to have any impact on the number of smokers, but we know\u2014and, in fact, the finance Minister was in the media confirming\u2014that it\u2019s going to have massive financial impacts so important that they\u2019ll be able to save her reckless tax cuts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003ESo I think there is a lot to commend this amendment made by my friend Rachel Boyack, because indeed this bill will increase health expenditure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e789731f30124b8781f88eb51491c6d1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Kieran McAnulty\u2014just to prove that I can see you over there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022260507fad1404dad93bfc5ae8f9dc789\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022260507fad1404dad93bfc5ae8f9dc789\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair, I appreciate that a lot. I intend to speak to an amendment in my name, including in clause 1, after \u201CProducts\u201D, inserting \u201C(Removing Restrictions)\u201D, because that is actually what it\u2019s doing, among other things. As we all know, those of us who have been here a while, when there is an amendment bill, it\u2019s quite common to have in brackets the intent of the bill included. It is very clear\u2014it\u2019s an indisputable fact; it\u2019s not even a political point\u2014that this bill removes restrictions that are currently in place. I propose this not making any commentary on that; I just simply feel that it is entirely appropriate that the title reflects the contents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ENow, what do I mean by \u201Cremoving restrictions\u201D? One example, of course, is that the Act as it stands, that this bill is amending, restricts the level of nicotine in tobacco products. Now, if the bill\u2019s title did include \u201Cremoving restrictions\u201D, that would be appropriate. What about the limit on the age of people able to purchase cigarettes in the Act that this bill is proposing to amend? The Act has restrictions. It says that people of a certain age cannot purchase cigarettes, moving forward; this bill here removes the restriction that is in the Act. There are many examples where this bill removes a restriction that is currently in place in the Act, and simply including \u201C(Removing Restrictions)\u201D after \u201CProducts\u201D is an appropriate proposal for the title.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s very clear that there has been a detailed debate on this bill. Not many detailed responses in the committee of the whole House stage, but nevertheless, the Minister has made it clear that it is her intention to continue to see the reduction in tobacco use. We dispute that, obviously, because what the bill is doing is removing restrictions that would have achieved that. Nevertheless, the Minister also hasn\u2019t disputed the fact that those restrictions are being removed. So I think that this amendment would be an appropriate change to the title.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022ecbd7f3b5a8844b6ac1e3dae3fa50206\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ecbd7f3b5a8844b6ac1e3dae3fa50206\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E This is going to be a very rare occasion where I disagree with my colleague the Hon Kieran McAnulty\u2014who\u2019s distracted, which is a good thing because he didn\u2019t hear me say that\u2014because, while I think his amendment to clause 1 is a good amendment, I think I\u2019ve got a better one. So the tabled amendment in my name\u2014that is here\u2014is also to clause 1. Rather than after the word \u201CProducts\u201D\u2014to insert Mr McAnulty\u2019s idea\u2014I am suggesting including the words \u201CRaising Tax Revenue\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EI am serious about this, because, again, a bill should describe the purpose of the bill in its title. The former Minister Mr McAnulty went to some of the operational activities of the bill, but not the purpose of the bill. We are absolutely clear, on this side of the Chamber, what the purpose of the bill is, because the Government\u2019s told us. The Government has told us\u2014in the form of the finance Minister, Nicola Willis\u2014that this legislation will raise revenue for the Government. I don\u2019t have it in front of me, but I believe it was an interview on\u2014today of all days to even mention this\u2014Newshub\u2019s Newshub Nation show in November when the then about-to-be Minister of Finance was asked about what she would be doing to make up for the revenue that was lost from the foreign-buyer ban no longer being available to fund the Government\u2019s tax cuts. She said, \u201CWell, we have to bear in mind the amount of revenue that the Government was going to forego as a result of the changes that Dr Verrall brought through in the smoke-free legislation.\u201D So that\u2019s why I think a more appropriate title for this bill is my amendment to insert the words \u201CRaising Tax Revenue\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ENow, it has become clearer to members in this House exactly how much tax revenue that is, which is another justification for why we should change the title\u2014and that is in the form of an Official Information Act request that my colleague Barbara Edmonds tabled in the House today. That was information from the Treasury, which actually quantified exactly how much money the Treasury thought would be raised in additional tax revenue from the amendments that are in this piece of legislation. That is an estimate of around about $500 million a year, or $1.5 billion because it rises up over the forecast period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003ENow, that\u2019s a significant amount of money. It\u2019s a significant amount of money that would otherwise not have been in the Government\u2019s coffers. I might add, in square brackets, \u201Cnot enough to make up for the foreign-buyer ban disappearing\u201D. So the numbers still don\u2019t add up, but it does indeed raise tax revenue, as I say in the title of my bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003EWhile I say that, I\u2019m fully aware that the costs to New Zealand are, of course, much, much higher in terms of lives lost and in terms of the damage that it will do to New Zealand\u2019s health system. But I do believe inserting in clause 1, after the word \u201CProducts\u201D, the words \u201CRaising Tax Revenue\u201D would actually make the title of this bill representative of the real purpose of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022f8d8e5154b02416a92a98eea15272ec2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f8d8e5154b02416a92a98eea15272ec2\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Whilst I\u2019ve just listened to my colleague Grant Robertson give what I thought was an excellent suggestion for the title of this bill\u2014nothing against my colleague Kieran McAnulty\u2019s also very excellent suggestion, and my colleague Rachel Boyack\u2019s excellent suggestion as well, I wonder if Associate Minister of Health the Hon Casey Costello would consider\u2014I don\u2019t have a tabled amendment, so I\u2019m just putting this out there for her to consider. We\u2019ve talked about the fact that the bill should do what it says on the tin: it should describe the intent of the bill. Whilst I agree with Hon Grant Robertson that the purpose of the bill clearly is to raise revenue\u2014and I won\u2019t repeat all of the reasons that he gave for that and all of the evidence that he provided to show that that is very true indeed\u2014I was interested with what my colleague Kieran McAnulty said about the more operational nature of it. I wondered if the Minister was interested in looking at outcomes, because I\u2019ve often heard that the Government is all about outcome\u2014measuring outcomes, striving for outcomes; all sorts of things to do with outcomes. And I wondered if we could perhaps consider the \u201CSmokefree Environments and Regulated Products (Extending Smokefree Targets to 2061)\u201D. Because that\u2019s an outcome; that is what is actually going to be achieved. Again, like I said, I didn\u2019t have the foresight to table an amendment, but I\u2019m asking the Minister, now, whether that\u2019s something she would like to consider.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4d47ddaa6ae4d3b8c7fd59816f72eed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4d47ddaa6ae4d3b8c7fd59816f72eed\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I thought that I was going to miss out on my opportunity, and I do have a number of new points to raise in relation to, actually, all three of the operative parts of these clauses that we\u2019re debating at the moment: the title, commencement, and, indeed, the amendment of the principal Act. I might do it in reverse order for a change. So in terms of clause 3: clause 3 states, it appears, quite simply, that the Act amends the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Act 1990. Well, we know that this is true. The first part of the bill does amend that principal Act. However, half of the bill is focused on amendments to other enactments and regulations. So I want to ask the Associate Minister of Health the Hon Casey Costello whether she would consider a more accurate description, in clause 3, which actually reflects the contents of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EYou\u2019ll be aware of the debates that we had in relation to Part 1 of the bill and Part 2 of the bill. Part 2 of the bill has the schedules, it has the new forms\u2014it\u2019s a substantive part. It\u2019s not reflected in clause 3, although, of course, except that it\u2019s a principal Act, but it doesn\u2019t only amend that section.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f390d6652683403bb0cb077fbb765bd8\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: No\u2014that\u2019s why it\u2019s \u201CPrincipal Act\u201D, not \u201CAll Acts\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022590af2b3460d4467970fd483ee13dbbd\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: So that\u2019s my first point. Second point\u2014I do understand what the principal Act says.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224418eac77d6040e696ac830181bcdcde\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: Ah, well, it doesn\u2019t sound it like from the member\u2019s contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae6ad962a33546c3a8846f5dba116879\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m happy to have a debate with you on that. So it does say \u201CPrincipal Act\u201D, but then, underneath the title, clause 3 \u201CPrincipal Act\u201D states, \u201CThis Act amends the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Act 1990.\u201D Well, it does, but that\u2019s not the only thing it does. Half of the Act\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222794f497aae74aa8b1bb82a92d2e5e45\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: Correct\u2014that\u2019s why it\u2019s the \u201Cprincipal\u201D Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1e83aac61804bcd9901e4a9f8effbb6\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I just responded to that point, in fact, that it says \u201CPrincipal Act\u201D\u2014anyway, I seem to not be able to get through to my colleague, unfortunately. So that is my first question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe second question that I have is in relation to commencement, and I actually have an amendment in my name on this point. So my amendment, with respect to my colleague Tracey McLellan\u2019s amendment, is probably a bit more of a compromise, and I wondered if the Minister wanted to consider it\u2014and that is, to amend clause 2 to replace \u201Con the day [of] Royal assent\u201D with \u201C1 January 2027\u201D. That is because we haven\u2019t had a select committee process, and a number of the things that are being repealed in the Act are not yet enforced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EIf we were to draw it out until 2027, we would actually see whether the things that are proposed to be amended in the primary piece of legislation\u2014what they actually do. It would give us a much better time frame to consult. As I\u2019ve said, this is a complex piece of legislation, and it repeals a number of things that are not currently in force, which makes commenting on them quite difficult because they don\u2019t appear in the primary piece of legislation until they\u2019re in force, which is quite difficult for members and also for the public when looking at it. So I wondered if the Minister would consider that much smaller extension of time, compared with my colleague Tracey McLellan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThis is another point in relation to Royal assent. I favour certainty when it comes to legislation. I think the principles of legislative drafting mean that we should have certainty in relation to the effect. The day of Royal assent is very difficult to ascertain when you\u2019re reading back on a piece of legislation, because it\u2019s sometimes difficult to know, without reading the exact movements and passage of legislation through the office of the Governor-General, exactly when Royal assent took place. So there are, in my view, many advantages with having a specific date. The date I proposed under my amendment, D, is in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EAnother alternative open to the Minister would be to, in fact, put another date which was even closer to today, or the day of Royal assent, to provide that certainty. So two points there, really. The first is an extension of time, which may allow for better lawmaking and allow for more commentary around the impact of the bill, and the second point is more certainty around the Royal assent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo I haven\u2019t even got to my third point around the title, but I do think it\u2019s important to reflect that this isn\u2019t really a smoke-free environments bill; this is actually about increasing, or de-regulating, the smoking market.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EBecause we\u2019ve had so many Acts\u2014and I\u2019ve mentioned that, in the complexity of the repeal that we\u2019re looking at\u2014that have constantly made steps towards a more smoke-free country, I think it inconsistent that this uses that word.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00221571db9ff3424db39b05022090115475\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221571db9ff3424db39b05022090115475\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E A very short contribution from me because I do think it\u2019s important that the title reflect what this bill actually does. And I think the clearest, most succinct way to put that would be to call this bill the \u201CSmokefree Halt Initiatives Tobacco Bill\u201D, so if you think about that, I think those four words very clearly tell us what this bill is. It\u2019s halting initiatives. It\u2019s not going forward; it\u2019s going backwards. \u201CSmokefree Halt Initiatives Tobacco Bill\u201D\u2014four words say it all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u002297c1f2644079442c953693af8a85d7e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002297c1f2644079442c953693af8a85d7e9\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I do want to make some remarks relating to the commencement of this bill because I studied, with some interest, the coalition agreement, and I note that from the outset there was a plan to have this repeal done by March. And as the House has learnt tonight, I don\u2019t doubt that\u2019s because parts of the provisions on the reduction of retail outlets would have started to come into force.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EI do want to make clear this evening my view that there was another option open to this Government that would have met their policy objectives and been consistent with good lawmaking, allowed the people of New Zealand to submit to a select committee process, and allowed proper scrutiny of the bill. That relates to the point that the policy objectives of the Minister could have been met while retaining the approved retailer section. That would mean that tobacco would be no more\u2014in fact, still less\u2014regulated than products like alcohol, that is licensed. And those retailers would have standards to meet in terms of whether the person was a responsible person or not. It would be easier to enforce all of those policies. Elements of the policy could stay, and the Minister could choose to have as many retail outlets as she wanted and remove the limits that our previous Government had put in place. All of that could be achieved and you wouldn\u2019t need to rush the bill, because all you could do would have the approved retailer programme stay in place and not have the same limit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003ESo my comment in relation to the commencement of this bill is that it could have been different. We could have achieved the Minister\u2019s policy objectives with a proper process. We could have had time to study it as a select committee. The Minister herself could have been better prepared for the questions\u2014quite reasonable questions about the operation of this bill\u2014that she has been unable to answer. Instead, we\u2019ve had a process with a highly technical bill where there is an underlying Act, an amendment to that Act, and then an amendment to that amendment. We\u2019ve had a process where we have had to understand that Act on the fly\u2014and I\u2019m grateful to all the colleagues in the House who have pitched in on that effort tonight. I\u2019ve found the contributions of my colleagues extremely illuminating in that respect, often more illuminating than those comments coming from the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003ESo my disappointment is about the fact that we\u2019re doing this under urgency, that this is one of a programme of bills done under urgency, that such important policy for the lives and health of New Zealanders is being done under urgency, and it could have been different. We could have done a process not different to what we went through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EYou know, the ironic thing is that we went through proper process to give retailers the time to have their say. We gave industry the chance to have their say. It all seems incredibly asymmetrical, really, that we on the left, in seeking to achieve progressive health policies, have given those forces that have sought to undermine the health of New Zealanders an opportunity to do so. Meanwhile, when they get the opportunity to have laws that favour them made, there is no opportunity for the people of New Zealand to have proper input to their laws. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EAnd so the commencement of this bill could have been delayed considerably, the Minister\u2019s policy objectives would still be met, and we would have a chance to properly go through the legislative process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022b67e1eafc2cc4f80a501ff88e403ea5b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b67e1eafc2cc4f80a501ff88e403ea5b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: [Facing Rachel Boyack] Rachel Brooking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8622ff6d94c46a7bd3de6a2a8ceb6b3\u0022\u003ERachel Boyack\u003C/span\u003E: Which Rachel?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3fe48fc61a142ed8f3e200bde2ab2f3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Rachel Brooking. There was a 50:50 chance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022b6a5b9a2568f4c5abbe2677dcc55f9b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b6a5b9a2568f4c5abbe2677dcc55f9b9\u0022\u003EHon RACHEL BROOKING (Labour\u2014Dunedin):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m just going to take a tiny moment to deviate from the title of this bill and note that I was on campus recently in the beautiful electorate of Dunedin, and some students came up to me and said, \u201CIs the House full of Rachels? Is every MP called Rachel?\u201D But there\u2019s only been two, and both are Rachel Bs\u2014both in the Labour Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EBut I want to talk about the title and respond to the Minister\u2019s response\u2014and I thank her for that response\u2014to my colleague, also from the great city and environment of Dunedin, Ingrid Leary, where she made a contribution, the first contribution on these clauses, on the title and commencement, and made some suggestions around the name.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EThen the Minister responded and said, \u201CWell, I can\u2019t\u201D\u2014I apologise for not being word-perfect with my summary, but basically: \u201CIt has to be called the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Amendment Act because\u201D\u2014inferring here\u2014\u201Cit\u2019s related to the primary legislation, so it can only be called that name in reference to the primary legislation.\u201D When, of course, we know that there are many examples where that is not the case, and that amendment Acts can, in fact, include things like brackets with other words. We heard Mr McAnulty\u2014he touched on this topic as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EBut I just want to go to Part 1 of this very bill, where of course the bill itself amends the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products\u2014bracket\u2014Smoked Tobacco\u2014bracket\u2014Amendment Act 2022. There\u2019s another one just like that about vaping, which I don\u2019t happen to have in front of me. But that is a perfectly normal drafting technique: to use brackets to explain the type of amendment that you are doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard many speeches on different suggestions on what should be included in those brackets\u2014very good ones relating to finances and also timing. My one is also related to timing in that I\u2019m suggesting that it should be that the Act is the \u201CSmokefree Environments and Regulated Products (Not Meeting 2025 Target) Amendment Act 2024\u201D. I\u2019m suggesting this because we\u2019ve heard through the policy debates that we\u2019ve had in the House today\u2014and, of course, that we had in the House in 2022\u2014that the point of the legislation that has been repealed was to make us achieve those targets and that the impact of this repeal will be that those targets will not be met. So that is my suggestion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003EAlso, I would like to speak briefly in support of my colleague Camilla Belich\u2019s suggestion of the commencement being at a later date. I think she suggested 1 January 2027. That would seem an appropriate date for this legislation to go through a proper process. Thank you, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u00221f75928e0b164bf18a2c84360ebff642\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f75928e0b164bf18a2c84360ebff642\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair\u2014proud to be one of the members of the \u201CRachel B caucus\u201D. Mr Chair, thank you for the opportunity to take a call. I have two amendments on the Table tonight, and my colleague the former Minister of Health, my good friend Dr Ayesha Verrall, has already spoken to one of those amendments in detail, so I won\u2019t take up time doing that. I\u2019ll speak to the particular amendment I have about the commencement date. Now, we\u2019ve had a bit of debate on our side of the Chamber about what could be the best amendment to the title. I\u2019m going to bring in a little bit of debate about what could be the best date, in terms of the commencement date, because we have got a few ideas here, and so I\u2019ll just put forward my argument. I\u2019m proposing that we replace the words \u201Cthe day after Royal assent.\u201D in clause 2 with the words \u201C1 June 2025\u201D. Now, I\u2019ve picked this date for a very specific reason, and the reason is that on 31 May 2025, Winston Peters will stop being the Deputy Prime Minister. One of the reasons I thought that this could be a good date is that perhaps that might be the day that the tail stops wagging the dog. As a dog lover and a dog owner and the spokesperson for animal welfare, that\u2019s probably a bit unfair on dogs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EBut the reason I thought that would be a good idea was that perhaps, at that point, the influence, I guess, of New Zealand First in putting forward a policy here that wasn\u2019t campaigned on by the National Party, I don\u2019t believe\u2014in fact, the National Party thought two of the parts of this bill that are being repealed were good things, things they supported\u2014the undue influence, where we\u2019ve got a very small representation in the House having a very large influence over a piece of legislation that is going to have an enormous impact on the population of New Zealand. Perhaps we might actually get a rethink from the National Party at that point. Perhaps that might be the day when we finally hear from the Government that they will no longer just respond to everything that the Rt Hon Winston Peters asks them to do, that he says, \u201CJump.\u201D and they say, \u201CHow high?\u201D, because it seems like they\u2019ve said, \u201CJump.\u201D and, you know, Mr Luxon has said, \u201CHow high?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ESo my hope is that things might change in this House on that date. Things might change. Although, I mean, I believe the ACT Party possibly may also try to make sure this one survives the change of Deputy Prime Minister. But I was just thinking to myself, you know, let\u2019s live in hope\u2014you know, let\u2019s keep hope alive that on that date things might change just a wee bit. So I specifically picked out 1 June 2025 for a very specific reason. I thought maybe that might be the point in this coalition, this very interesting three-headed coalition, where one head kind of gets removed and another one rises. Maybe, I don\u2019t know\u2014I know that, you know, we\u2019ve been talking a bit about Mr Seymour\u2019s very interesting Canadian accent lately\u2014he might have a change of heart about that. Maybe he might have a change of heart about this when he becomes Deputy Prime Minister. So it\u2019s this particular date that I\u2019ve set this date for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EBut just coming back to my other amendment, I just wanted to briefly mention around the increased expenditure. The reason why I\u2019ve put that specific amendment on the Table tonight is that there are so many cost pressures on our health system, and we know from the evidence and we\u2019ve seen from the evidence that repealing this bill will put more pressure on our health system. We already have struggling wait-lists. We already have struggling GP practices. We have nurses that need to be paid more. We have health practitioners that need to be paid more. We have a hospital to build in Nelson\u2014a hospital to build in Nelson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022183576c852db410f849cf69fee104171\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: And Dunedin.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210f878e894a84d78975d4b35382faf90\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Dunedin\u2019s on the way and, you know, doing very well, but Nelson, you know, I want to make sure. And Whang\u0101rei needs to be built. So I\u2019d quite like that money to stay in the health system, not being used unnecessarily. I\u2019d quite like that money to be used to build my hospital.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d806209f68a2475e9c6ffb14e0eeddde\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Your hospital?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022915325d210cc4a229e02cca50a578e0d\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, it will be my hospital, Mr Robertson. That, I think, is a much better use of Government expenditure in health, which is why I\u2019ve put that particular amendment up tonight. This bill will increase the pressure on the health system in terms of expenditure, so I think we need to be very accurate with the title in terms of the impact it will have on the New Zealand health system. Thank you, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022 data-id=\u00228962b723e1774bc99acf523bb5cb99aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228962b723e1774bc99acf523bb5cb99aa\u0022\u003ETIM COSTLEY (National\u2014\u014Ctaki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022e69458750f394720b7732c67ec39315b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e69458750f394720b7732c67ec39315b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Now, I\u2019m just going to remind people that the relevance, repetition, and participation of the Minister are three of the factors that are taken into account.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022c6e09113350546729dc0740d7d66a0c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c6e09113350546729dc0740d7d66a0c5\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair; I appreciate it. I\u2019m wishing to speak to the title of the bill, and accuracy is an important component of the title. For context, like many people in this Chamber, I have a personal context here in that both my parents were smokers and, raised in the 1970s and the 1980s, people smoked in all environments. People smoked in my house, in every room in the house, and it was a very smoky world. Escaping cigarette smoke was something that people didn\u2019t even really consider. I remember being driven to school at five years old in the white Austin Nomad and standing on the bench seat in the back because there were no seatbelts, and my mother smoking as she drove the car. That was perfectly normal. That was the reality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EWhat has happened in the ensuing decades is that the culture has changed through an understanding of the harm caused by smoking and then an intervention at the regulatory, legislative level to restrict access to tobacco products. The most obvious instance of that was when we forbid there to be smoking in bars and clubs and pubs and so forth. And that has thereby restricted, through concerted regulatory and legislative effort, the smokiness of our environments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003ENow, the benefits of that are far-reaching. My own father suffered arteriosclerosis. Both of my parents died of cancer, and the effect of him\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f08a0e42e9342b390b6792db6cbd52a\u0022\u003ETim Costley\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Sir, you gave us a very, I thought, astute and clear direction on the focus of this debate. We\u2019re not hearing anything on the title or commencement, and I\u2019d just ask for your guidance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223282bf94f5c949dbb1d95be2cdf325f9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is a matter for the Chair. I also could have added the fact that there hasn\u2019t been a select committee is also a factor in how much space is given from the Chair as well, but that is a matter for the Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6035515cc144ed7ad28a0f816f59a50\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Chair. The advantage of us reducing the smokiness of our environments has been a marked decrease in the health burden of the country, not just the personal health burden of those of us who have lost relatives to the effects of smoking but on the actual monetary cost of taking care of people because of the effects of smoking. My father had angioplasties, he had bypasses, he spent 10 years suffering from cancer before the end of his life, and the cost to the public health service was extensive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003ESo my proposal, because I think it is an accurate reflection of what this amendment bill actually does, in all authentic honesty: it does not make a smoke-free environment; it makes, in a practical sense, a smokier environment for our society, and a less regulated products environment. This is a reduction in the regulatory framework that protects the wider community from the impacts of tobacco and nicotine, and this will mean smokier environments. It takes us away from the trajectory that we have had basic agreement on across this House over some years now of the advantages in reducing the smokiness of our environments, and we\u2019re going away from smoke-free environments to smokier environments. It\u2019s a back-to-the-past piece of legislation, and that is what I seriously propose to the Minister that this should be correctly called, if there is going to be honesty as to what this amendment bill does. The impact on our society, on our people, on the health of people will be utterly detrimental. It does not serve the interests of our society and our country, and certainly not people\u2019s health. That is what I propose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u00228d84507009f8459cb5c4ab0692ad9f79\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d84507009f8459cb5c4ab0692ad9f79\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. I appreciate the opportunity to make a contribution to this. Before I do, I just want to signal that my friend and colleague the MP for Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti intends to speak in regards to the Waitangi Tribunal case there, which is a point that has yet to be made in relation to the commencement date. But the reason I felt compelled to stand and make a contribution is because on two occasions it has been suggested that the amendment in my name is not as effective a proposal to amend the title as that which is in Tracey McLellan\u2019s name, but also Grant Robertson\u2019s. And I have to concede, in regards to the amendment in the Hon Grant Robertson\u2019s name, I agree. I agree, so I encourage the committee not to vote for my amendment and let the record show that when it doesn\u2019t pass, that\u2019s because I\u2019ve asked it not to! But the amendment that I\u2019m speaking in favour of is the Hon Grant Robertson\u2019s proposal that after \u201CProducts\u201D in clause 1, \u201C(Raising Tax Revenue)\u201D be included.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThe reason I\u2019m speaking in favour of this, as opposed to my proposal, is because upon reflection\u2014which if we take a step back and take into account the point of a committee of the whole House stage, it is to reflect on proposals made by members and consider the validity of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4067487ba98480e80e4d3d082ff0491\u0022\u003ERachel Boyack\u003C/span\u003E: What about my one?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d570367495f4651bfa2c04e1ff8c6ea\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: No, I didn\u2019t like yours. And so the original proposal that I put forward, proposing that \u201CRemovals of Restrictions\u201D was accurate, but after listening to the contribution of the Hon Grant Robertson, I actually agree that his is more accurate. Because we have a situation here that the finance Minister herself has conceded, that the National Party\u2019s support for this\u2014keeping in mind that they did not campaign on this and, in fact, as a proportion of the current Government the vote share in favour of this is actually quite small, but the finance Minister has said, herself, that the reason they support it is because it will assist her in paying for tax cuts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ENow, if that is the case, it\u2019s important that the title reflects the National Party\u2019s motivation for supporting this New Zealand First proposal. Now, if the Minister disagrees with this amendment, she only needs to stand up and speak. I don\u2019t believe, apart from the opening remarks, that she has actually contributed to this debate on title and commencement, and it would be useful for the committee if she did because we have had some proposals to change the title, such as this one. We\u2019ve had some proposals to change the commencement date, and, as I\u2019ve indicated, the MP for Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti has a contribution to make in regards to that. All of them valid, but how do we know where we stand if the Minister doesn\u2019t contribute?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ESo I would implore the committee to consider not my amendment, but that in the name of the Hon Grant Robertson, to reflect the true nature\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292a3ff2e5f504910bcc51873806071dd\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s a better man than me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db56aa09c6fa40008eeaf859c6e3e719\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: Aw!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c968ae9498a2458b810c4130ee32feaf\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re so surprised because this is what happens when you actually get on with your mates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022157f9adc2c614f3da59131a10a49c0e4\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Not used to it over there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fa1a7832f364ca397b70f8410d81361\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: Not used to it over there; bickering, yelling, arguing, carrying on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3cbeeff06994a339865edb8c6f18861\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re just not used to seeing it over there!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022055cb9e32f8b4008acf9450957711eb4\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I see what he did there. He said what I said and threw it at us. I haven\u2019t heard that since I was at school when I was six. So thank you for reminding me of back then: \u201CI know you are, but what am I?\u201D Just remember that one, keep that one up your sleeve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIt is true, when you consider the make-up of this Government\u2014three parties, one of which is considerably larger than the other two, and the National Party did not campaign on this; they only support it because New Zealand First want it. New Zealand First, as my colleague Rachel Boyack said, is \u201Cthe tail wagging the dog\u201D. Let\u2019s reflect the actual motivation of the Government as to why they\u2019re supporting it, and that\u2019s why I speak in favour of the Hon Grant Robertson\u2019s amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022 data-id=\u0022a5471460f3164809b9753c2b89d7d540\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221573c6f8-999b-434d-8bde-a47a586ee0f0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a5471460f3164809b9753c2b89d7d540\u0022\u003EGREG FLEMING (National\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022 data-id=\u00220e3bf78feed742bcb9f74b531012310c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e3bf78feed742bcb9f74b531012310c\u0022\u003ECUSHLA TANGAERE-MANUEL (Labour\u2014Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Chair, otir\u0101 t\u0113n\u0101 an\u014D koutou katoa. Ahakoa te p\u014Duri rawa atu o te ng\u0101kau, kei te k\u014Drero m\u0101tou i runga i t\u0113nei kaupapa whakah\u0113, whakaiti, patu i te oranga hauora o ng\u0101 t\u0101ngata katoa o Aotearoa. Ehara ko ng\u0101 M\u0101ori anake.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EKo t\u0113nei te w\u0101hanga tuarua i t\u0113nei r\u0101 tonu kei te k\u014Drero m\u0101tou m\u014D t\u0113tahi take e whakaiti ana i te mana o te Taraipiunara o Waitangi. Ko te \u0101hua nei, ko te whakaaro o t\u0113nei K\u0101wanatanga hei aha te whakaaro M\u0101ori, hei aha te mana M\u0101ori, hei aha te oranga M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003E[Thank you, Mr Chair, indeed greetings to you all. Despite the deep sadness of my heart, we are speaking about this action that condemns, that insults, that attacks the health and wellbeing of all people of New Zealand. Not just the M\u0101ori.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EThis is the second section today where we are talking about an issue that denigrates the authority of the Waitangi Tribunal. It appears that the opinion of this Government is don\u2019t bother with M\u0101ori perspectives, don\u2019t bother with mana M\u0101ori, and M\u0101ori health doesn\u2019t matter.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EI\u2019m saddened to be here on a day where two times in one day we are discussing items which have not been heard by the Waitangi Tribunal though there are claims before them\u2014in particular, a claim by a group such Te R\u014Dp\u016B Tupeka Kore o Aotearoa, which holds so much authority in this kaupapa in Aotearoa, is not being given the chance to be heard. Kei te h\u0101rapa haere t\u0113nei hoiho. Parahutihuti ana te haere o t\u0113nei hoiho. [This horse is galloping away. This horse is really flying.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EWhy is this important kaupapa being rushed? Don\u2019t get me wrong, the word \u201Curgency\u201D\u2014the irony is not wasted on me. The sad part is that the urgency on this side of the House is the urgency to save lives and to prevent us going back and making mistakes that we know we\u2019ve already lived. I have several questions, but number one: why, once again, is this process being rushed and Te R\u014Dp\u016B Tupeka\u2019s claim before the Waitangi Tribunal not given the opportunity to be heard before this bill is passed? And tuarua, why not wait for that determination? Kei hea r\u0101 te mana o te Taraipiunara o Waitangi i t\u0113nei r\u0101? [Where is the authority of the Waitangi Tribunal today?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s sad\u2014you know, already, the precedent is being set by this Government that the tribunal is a \u201Cnice-to-have\u201D but when we feel like it. He whakaiti t\u0113r\u0101. He whakaiti i te mana o te Taraipiunara o Waitangi, he whakaiti i te mana M\u0101ori, he whakaiti i te hauora o ng\u0101 t\u0101ngata katoa. [That is an insult. It is an insult to the authority of the Waitangi Tribunal, it is an insult to M\u0101ori authority, it is an insult to the wellbeing of all people.]\u00A0\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EWhen I talk about urgency and the desire not to take a giant leap backwards, let\u2019s be clear that it\u2019s not just for M\u0101ori. Although there\u2019s been a lot of k\u014Drero about how M\u0101ori feature highly in the negative statistics, as do Pasifika, it\u2019s not just M\u0101ori; we all know that tobacco is harmful to everybody in this beautiful country of ours. Thank you for the reminder, Mr Chair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EKo taku p\u0101tai\u2014what is the rush? And why can we not wait until this has been heard by Taraipiunara o Waitangi? T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022 data-id=\u00222dc3159a4d394292bb8a0d1507ab5c57\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222dc3159a4d394292bb8a0d1507ab5c57\u0022\u003EDr HAMISH CAMPBELL (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u002262d40f0bec694cdeb1166f20034991a0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262d40f0bec694cdeb1166f20034991a0\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I haven\u2019t had an opportunity to take a call on what is a discrete\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246b8938446324398a5dd347db9f11bf4\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: You don\u2019t need one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee6099b84d2f4361b2ce1e9b49d54612\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, members opposite might suggest that we don\u2019t need one over here\u2014that was the interjection that was made by the member opposite. I know that they haven\u2019t been here that long, but this is how it works, particularly when it comes to urgency. And how it also works is usually, as Chairs have consistently indicated this evening, Ministers in the chair tend to take calls to address the issues that have been raised by members. We have only had one contribution from the Minister at the start. There have been plenty of other opportunities. Mr Chair, I want to acknowledge you and the direction and guidance that you have given to this committee, in that repetition is one aspect, but also the role in which the Minister is taking in terms of responding to the issues\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228044cb4f641d4a208e95dfbc222255a0\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: What role?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022215e4016e42e48939b62d596e04e98d0\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly. What role? Because currently there is none. Until the Minister seeks a call, it is likely that members opposite will continue to raise the issues because they have not been answered, they have not been addressed. If that is the courtesy with which the Minister wishes to treat this process, then that is one of disdain. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ESo the issue that I wish to raise for the Minister\u2014and I do hope that the Minister does take a call on this, because many of us here are actually none the wiser as to what her position is right now on many issues. We have had a number of members of this House who have raised views or points of view around what some potential amendments to the title might be. What we have heard from the Minister to date is there is, perhaps, no need. Well, we don\u2019t know, because she hasn\u2019t clarified that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EBut her suggestion is that the title of the bill is simply as it is because it\u2019s amending the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Act. So what we have on the Table at the moment, Minister, are a number of suggestions that are in brackets, which is not an uncommon approach, actually, when it comes to the names of bills. Because, for the benefit of those at home tuning in at 10.30, long night, all by themselves\u2014they\u2019ve gone silent over there because maybe they\u2019re listening. They\u2019re actually learning something over there, for once. But the point of putting definitions or descriptors, adjectives, into brackets is so that some people could take a very cursory look and understand what the actual intent of this amendment or this change is. So we have yet to hear from the Minister what her views are. It\u2019s very simple. I mean, she can rule them out; she can rule them in. At the moment, she is choosing not to take a particular position on any of the amendments that members of this House have put\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022112485fb1a1149c9a36d72bd4469b1cf\u0022\u003ETim Costley\u003C/span\u003E: Well, let\u2019s vote on them, then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a115240a4f94eea96b6cdf3b3d47d71\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, there we have it. So we hear from members over there, \u201CLet\u2019s just vote on it.\u201D Well, the fact that members opposite have put this House into urgency\u2014and I\u2019m sure that members opposite would quite like to actually just go straight to the vote. Well, let\u2019s give a lesson on 101, and that is this is the House of Representatives, where we are here to represent the numerous number of people that are not having an opportunity on this very bill because it is not subject to the scrutiny of a select committee process. Members over there might wish to be arrogant and ignorant of the process, but over here, we are standing up for the rights of individuals, for the rights of communities for whom this piece of legislation will have a significant impact.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ENow, while members opposite and the Minister may want to just sit there and not take this seriously, that is an absolute abomination\u2014a disgrace. It is unfortunate, it is unsatisfactory\u2014all of these sorts of adjectives. We could put them in a bracket. We\u2019d like to hear what the Minister would like to say about that. But, I tell you what, she probably won\u2019t take a call because she has failed to do so since many of these issues have been raised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, if you are serious about this piece of legislation, then you owe it to this committee to address the issues that we have raised as members of this Parliament on behalf of the very communities that have not actually had an opportunity to have their voices heard. Many members of this House have talked already today about the fact that the committee is in urgency. If there is ever a time when Ministers or members of the Government need to place on record what their perspective is on these matters, it\u2019s now\u2014it is now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ENow, I implore the Minister to take just one call to respond to the issues that we have raised opposite, because failure to do so is simply indicating, \u201CWell, we don\u2019t care about what other people think about things. We just believe that we should just go from A to B without any consideration for the impact that this will have on communities.\u201D So, Minister, I invite you to take a call to address the numerous questions that have been put to you, which is the whole purpose of this committee of the whole House stage. I implore you to do exactly that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002213a43fd5ca444244ac9da257a8e316f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213a43fd5ca444244ac9da257a8e316f6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Given the fact that that member is the chief whip, I\u2019ll treat that as a very long point of order. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba6d202e5eff4707b2b14c7083e58636\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba6d202e5eff4707b2b14c7083e58636\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I just wish to address the discussion around title and commencement. I can assure you I did not state that we could not change the title. I was merely clarifying that we had not made any change to the title in this bill, and this title had not been changed when the regulations and legislation was changed to insert denicotinisation and the reduced retailers and the abolition of those who could purchase cigarettes who were born from January 2009. So we haven\u2019t amended it, it wasn\u2019t amended previously, and that\u2019s why we haven\u2019t looked at making an amendment at this point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EI acknowledge the comments regarding the commencement date. I would emphasise the fact that this coalition agreement was not only between National and New Zealand First but it was also between National and ACT, and that was consistent across both parties around this amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022 data-id=\u00222694257775b34fca8f66838d973fb326\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222694257775b34fca8f66838d973fb326\u0022\u003ESUZE REDMAYNE (Junior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227ea9f03a5dd54696845a7642088fb4e6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022c22a3626eee14b6f83cc9cc52e18df9d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c22a3626eee14b6f83cc9cc52e18df9d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The tabled amendments to clause 1 in the names of the Hon Grant Robertson and Rachel Boyack are out of order as not an objective description of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EThe question is that\u2014[Interruption] Votes are heard in silence. The question is that the Hon Kieran McAnulty\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224528dec73e5d4ec497d776c10b97312b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7fa3f6c38164804aca7d03920ea76c9\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Personal vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00223742f22e99854fcda2654ca4172ae060\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223742f22e99854fcda2654ca4172ae060\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that\u2014if that was a serious call for a personal vote, the member is well aware that the only time that there is any doubt about the vote, that that will be called. I am in no doubt about the vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223c967819dd0a42d1b3cefad95b0df124\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002217c0cf1a533a47d394c5806a5d066b0e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002217c0cf1a533a47d394c5806a5d066b0e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Camilla Belich\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b0dd4e3800a74da0ac8f4acfdb2294a4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc49cf42a5db42169e8f07051e03d360\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc49cf42a5db42169e8f07051e03d360\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Rachel Boyack\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022bfc559b7821a49ea8031fac947d93617\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227b9b5e52a4dd411fbf61aa62a9dea482\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221b06b4f2b5704750bfa08c2882e6be49\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001459\u0022\u003EBill to be reported without amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001460\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002225f849f9d58f4b2e9567663ae75b11b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225f849f9d58f4b2e9567663ae75b11b8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has considered the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Amendment Bill and reports it without amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022a8d83a0392b748bca15c592e07fe8a30\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a8d83a0392b748bca15c592e07fe8a30\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for third reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002247db9a17722a44e1a3394529ca42e76d\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022 data-id=\u00226149e2bc519442c6af1d3272f547cd82\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226149e2bc519442c6af1d3272f547cd82\u0022\u003EHon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EThere has been quite a lot of emotion and debate around this bill. That is understandable; smoking is an emotive subject. People have spoken of their personal experience with family members dying from effects of smoking tobacco. I sympathise, and I\u2019ve lived the experiences. Smokers, their families, communities, and our health system all benefit from a reduction in smoking. I want to see a reduction in smoking, this Government wants it, and members opposite want it. What we disagree about is how.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EI want to set out some facts for people listening to this debate. As I said, this is an emotive subject on which we feel passionately, and there have been some emotional statements, so it is important that we are very clear about what this bill and this Government is doing. There are three key facts. Firstly, this bill does not change a single regulation around smoking, around the sale and use of smoked tobacco products, that is in place today. Labour had plans to cut the number of retailers, introduce a low nicotine limit, and ban sales to all those born after 1 January 2009, but they were plans. One of those things was to happen later this year, one was to happen next year, and one was to happen in 2027. I reiterate: those changes are not yet in place. This bill reverses those plans and maintains the regulatory regime that is in place now and that was in place throughout Labour\u2019s term. We are not stopping anything that is currently helping to drive smoking rates down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003ESecondly, New Zealand\u2019s smoking rates are falling rapidly. New Zealanders are quitting smoking. That is great news. In the last three years, 229,000 people have stopped smoking, and more than a third of those who quit were M\u0101ori. I mention the three figures because Labour\u2019s plans and all the modelling that they keep talking about were based on figures from 2019 to 2020. Back then, the smoking rate was 11.9 percent, and the youth smoking rate was 10.3. The latest New Zealand Health Survey figures show an overall smoking rate of 6.8 and a youth smoking rate of 3 percent. When that survey started in 2011 to 2012, there were 119,000 young smokers. Last year, there was 19,000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022feb2e3ca-4ad3-4c7c-9958-b10d28c83bc8\u0022\u003EWhat that means, and the third point I want to make, is that smoking rates are falling because what we are doing is something that works. The regime that this bill keeps in place has seen smoking rates reduce, and we\u2019re going to build on it. Our commitment is to provide smokers a range of tools, like vaping, that will help them to quit smoking. We will ensure the continued provision of effective stop-smoking services and supporting marketing campaigns, and we will ensure initiatives are targeted at those who need it the most. This will include M\u0101ori and Pacific peoples, who have higher smoking rates. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002293e149f074554d238537aaadb8d5a31c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002293e149f074554d238537aaadb8d5a31c\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u00228cc9cbfd3049408c932957205cff4f05\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228cc9cbfd3049408c932957205cff4f05\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I repeat that tonight we have really passed through the looking glass to a world of unreality. For me personally, the most unreal thing about this debate is that as someone who came to this Parliament as an epidemiologist, to be told on multiple occasions that my request for facts, my demands to have a debate based on the actual policy, that the desire to have statistics and modelling actually answered are emotional contributions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EI could not have been more of a scientist when I brought together the three items that were in the 2022 bill that that is being repealed tonight. To remind the House what those are, we used the evidence from multiple scientific studies, multiple clinical trials to denicotinise cigarettes, because this is one of the most effective tools for helping people quit, and yet we are told that these interventions are not effective enough and that there are other effective alternatives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EIt was our colleague Dr Reti who told us during the debate on the 2022 bill that this was so outstandingly effective that it should be brought in on its own. The bill included a well-studied initiative to reduce the number of retail outlets, because we know the number and density of retail outlets promote youth smoking and they undermine people\u2019s ability to quit. And we brought in a smoke-free generation, a truly ambitious piece of law that would mean that the people who are young today, born after 2009, would never be able to legally purchase tobacco\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ceeec3fca5e64c5abef18409ab7297b1\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Even Rishi Sunak liked that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e248d734d74048bba2cc7c214dd978be\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and that all the harms we heard about tobacco would not be part of their future lives. As my colleague Grant Robertson is adding, this is not radical law; in fact, the Conservatives in the United Kingdom plan to bring this in. We used evidence in bringing that together. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EWe brought up modelling, and that modelling was done by international experts in modelling. It told us not only that the smoke-free goal wouldn\u2019t be reached until 2061 without our Act; it also told us that it would take away a third of the life expectancy gap for w\u0101hine M\u0101ori. On a day where we have done such harm to the ambitions and aspirations of M\u0101ori health, and have been told that that Government over there is focused on M\u0101ori health outcomes, the single thing that could be done to improve M\u0101ori health outcomes, they\u2019re not going to do it. This would be the most powerful thing, and they\u2019re not going to do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve asked about Treaty obligations, because that is a factual element of how we should set law, and we haven\u2019t had adequate answers on that. We\u2019ve asked about the health consequences of this bill, and we\u2019ve not had adequate engagement. We\u2019ve had, \u201CYeah, there are problems, but these things wouldn\u2019t be effective.\u201D We\u2019ve not had adequate answers on the financial costs of this bill. Instead, because there are no financial consequences of this bill, because there\u2019s been no regulatory impact statement, we don\u2019t know if the Government has been properly advised on the impacts of this bill on the health system, but I know from the advice that I got that it\u2019s likely to cost the health system $5\u00A0billion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EWe have seen multiple contributions to the previous Act from people up and down the country. Thousands of people came to the Health Committee and told us about the misery that tobacco causes in their lives. My colleague Tangi Utikere took some of those hearings throughout the country and really took the time to engage and learn from our community. And that opportunity, the opportunity to comment on the laws that we have to live by, was denied to the community, because this bill resulted from a dirty deal that\u2019s been run through under urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve had a Minister in the chair tonight who has not really been able to answer questions but has just referred that the reason for the policy is the policy. It has been extremely frustrating. So if the Minister wants to describe that frustration as emotional, then perhaps she could take some responsibility for it by being able to give some proper answers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EThe questions that we have about this whole policy area and the influence of tobacco lobbyists on this policy have not been adequately answered. We\u2019ve been transacting with the Minister at question time, for multiple weeks, the issue of how a mystery document seeking tax breaks for the tobacco industry turned up in her office, and there\u2019s been no good enough answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EThis stinks\u2014it stinks. All of you need to think about the harm you are doing to our communities. All of the Government needs to think about that. I know Dr Reti is thinking about that, because I can see him over there. What\u2019s he doing all the way over there? He\u2019s been so quiet. I can barely see him in the distance. He\u2019s sitting very far from the rest of his colleagues. I wonder what Dr Reti thinks. He hasn\u2019t taken a call on this bill. Well, I just wonder if it\u2019s shame.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205f74a4073ea42348862e32f9cda5a15\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: I think it will be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c41d74c1ce5b48c9ab403f5fa236b4c3\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I think it will be, because he\u2019s a man who\u2019s taken an oath to uphold health, and look what\u2019s being done, which reminds me of all the people who support this initiative. It\u2019s worth reminding ourselves who they are. The 45,000 New Zealanders who signed H\u0101pai te Hauora\u2019s petition\u2014we\u2019re not listening to them tonight, are we? The more than 60 percent of New Zealanders who support the bill in its original form; they don\u2019t support your repeal\u2014we\u2019re not thinking about them tonight at all. We\u2019re not thinking about the hundreds of medical and health organisations that signed an open letter to the Prime Minister condemning the move to repeal this bill. The action that the Government is taking is deeply unpopular. It is unpopular because everyone in the country knows it\u2019s wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EI want to finish my speech on a more positive note. I want to tell my colleagues that it\u2019s been such an honour to work with them on smoke-free. I want to thank the people from cancer societies up and down the country who work tirelessly for smoke-free. I\u2019ve had amazing meetings with cancer societies\u2014those in South Canterbury and Palmerston North more recently are just some that stand out in my mind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EI want to remind all of the colleagues I met at marae up and down the country, including my friend from Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori on Manukau Marae, who have been activists for this cause for a long time. I want to thank all the health charities like the Stroke Foundation and diabetes groups who have worked for smoke-free for so, so long. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EI want to thank the researchers, including those that have contributed so much to the debate about this bill and to the original piece of work that we passed. I want to acknowledge those, including those at the Public Health Communication Centre, who have put out evidence showing how so many of the arguments from that side of the House match up exactly with statements from the tobacco industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EI want to particularly thank Health Coalition Aotearoa for their tireless work for this cause, their bringing together of activists and experts in this area; the health unions Association of Salaried Medical Specialists and the New Zealand Nurses Organisation, who organised rallies that we had up and down the country opposing the step this Government is taking; and the activists who have worked on this for a long time. There are too many to name, but they include Hone Harawira, Shane Bradbrook, Anaru Waa, Skye Kimura, and many others I have met up and down the country. On the weekend, I went to Hastings and met with Vape-Free Kids, and they\u2019ve been in the gallery tonight. Minister, they still want a meeting with you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EI want to thank the medical students who have also campaigned on this issue and, in particular, the many, many young people who the Government has ignored tonight because of a politically convenient transaction. You are the people this Government has failed by bringing this Act through. You are the people who deserve a better go. You are the people who should be free from smoke. You should be free from corporate interests trying to steal your healthcare away from you. You should know that you could grow up in a community where if you had a disability or a chronic medical condition, you\u2019d be more likely to get treatment for it, because we would have saved $5 billion of health costs if this bill hadn\u2019t been repealed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EThose young people deserve a better future, not just the track that we\u2019re already on. They deserve a new smoke-free generation. I know that all our collaborators and colleagues and allies inside the House and outside it will continue to work for that future. In particular, I am so proud to say that we will support a citizens initiated referendum to overturn this terrible move. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225f6f98c504884ae8a347bd98825b96bb\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b8d1a6edeceb4cf68ede59da85e0f631\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u0022b5f64edcfdc649ef83205385fb8d35d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b5f64edcfdc649ef83205385fb8d35d8\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I seek leave to move a motion without notice and without debate to determine the business for this Thursday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270763d84dc9e40ed8a934e004ecbceb6\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that. Is there any objection? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de9993c19bfe4dcb82f22972895863ea\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I move, That the business for Thursday, 29 February be as follows: general business, including oral questions; a general debate; and members\u2019 orders of the day Nos 1, 4, and 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a9e700c23d4843e382c3cc847e675a7e\u0022\u003ESmokefree Environments and Regulated Products Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002260de267987224d5c9b1964c451002564\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001500\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u00223159483dd851406293ad49b80870f5ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223159483dd851406293ad49b80870f5ab\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Green\u2014Auckland Central):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te M\u0101ngai. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. I just wanted to start my contribution, actually, firstly, by acknowledging the former Minister who had just resumed her seat: the Hon Dr Ayesha Verrall. When she was in that hot seat of being the health Minister, we did a lot of work on this legislation, and I think the former Minister will be the first to admit that the concerns that the Greens came to her with were about the potential for criminal prohibition and the potential of criminalising, particularly, young people with some of the moves under the headline of \u201Cthe smoke-free generation\u201D. What the former Minister did was engage wholesale and fulsomely with us to make sure that we addressed all of those potential concerns of criminalisation. That enabled us to get to a place where the Greens were comfortable with supporting evidence-based harm interventions to reduce substance harm in this country. So I just wanted to acknowledge, first and foremost off the bat, that what we had here was not only world leading in terms of its ability to reduce smoking harm but also that it modelled a way to move forward without entailing criminal prohibition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ETurning to the bill in front of us today. There\u2019s been not too much ability to meaningfully canvass the content of it. The reason for that, of course, is that the Government introduced it today, and we started debating it at around 3 or 3.30 p.m. It\u2019s now just getting to 11 p.m., and in the blink of an eye, in nine to 10 hours of debating time in this Chamber, the Government has pushed through, under urgency, world-leading, evidence-based, harm-minimisation legislation for one of the most deadly substances that we know of\u2014a substance that will kill 50 percent of its consumers. \u201CWhy?\u201D is the fundamental question. Why is this on the House\u2019s agenda and why is it necessary to go through under urgency without due public scrutiny and the typical convention of this House? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EWhy? Well, so far we\u2019ve been led round in circles by the Minister, who\u2019s told us in the many back and forths that we attempted to have in the committee of the whole House that the reason this is happening is because of the coalition agreement between the New Zealand First Party and the National Party to form this Government. Well, why is it in that coalition agreement? Well, because it\u2019s in the coalition agreement. Well, why is it in the coalition agreement? It\u2019s because it\u2019s in the coalition agreement. You can see the frustration in that tautology.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a1143e514a9454fb6bbdbf3bde589b9\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: The coalition agreement!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abd683f2f88f4e638f89c855e2982b0b\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK\u003C/span\u003E: I guess I just wanted to say to members of the Government and the governing parties who are heckling me at the minute that I get that this is a game for you guys, at this point. I get that it\u2019s kind of, you know, \u201CWe\u2019ll back our team and we\u2019ll rally behind because this is the thing that we\u2019re doing.\u201D But these are people\u2019s lives. Thirteen New Zealanders die every single day from consuming tobacco\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224935d3cf3d0b4c609ef417f54c40d643\u0022\u003EHon Simeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ve got good policies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fb3b415efb54d52a2fa5158dad32cd2\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014the Hon Simeon Brown\u2014and they are going to continue to die at a faster rate than they would have otherwise had it not been for this repeal legislation, which your Government is pushing through under urgency tonight, because, Madam Speaker\u2014noting that the Speaker\u2019s just changed\u2014we are confronted with, effectively, the kind of underlying principle or logic here of \u201CWhy save more lives? Why move faster? Why have any aspiration to apply the evidence and to move in a direction that would put us at the forefront of the world when it comes to actually meaningfully addressing these issues?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EI think some really salient points have been made, including by my colleague Steve Abel in his final contribution in the committee of the whole House on the title and commencement clauses, where he made the point about how, back in the day, we used to live in far smokier environments. I\u2019d just actually invite members across this House to think about the fact that, only a few decades ago, this Chamber was one of those smoky environments where it was the case that members of Parliament and officers of Parliament and the Speaker could light up their cigarette and do so entirely legally. Because it was recognised that smoking and cigarettes were harmful, we moved towards an environment which was less and less smoky and, actually, fun fact, it wasn\u2019t until 2016\u20142016\u2014that the entire premises of Parliament finally became entirely smoke-free, including our lawn. That is very recent history and entirely indicative of the reality, as this place bares out time and again, that everything is impossible until it becomes possible, and all it takes in order to get to that place which, once upon a time, was fathomed impossible, is evidence and a little bit of backbone and courage to make it happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo not only are we left in this kind of haze as to why the Government\u2019s progressing this through, because the only entities that we saw advocating for the repeal of this smoke-free generation legislation throughout the past year or so were New Zealand First and the tobacco industry, but who benefits? Who benefits from the passage of this law? Well, it\u2019s not the more New Zealanders who are going to be addicted for longer only filling up this Government\u2019s coffers by an approximate $500 million per annum as a result of increased excise in tobacco tax; it\u2019s going to be the tobacco industry. Sure, actually, we could potentially reflect on that point that that half a billion dollars is going to add, in the short term, to the Government\u2019s revenue and therefore make them able to pay for the tax cuts that they promised throughout the election campaign. But to contextualise that in the long run, outside of the three-yearly cycle, we know that this is going to cost us billions of dollars, and therefore it sits in entire contravention to the National Party\u2019s proposals of social investment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s actually no cost-benefit analysis that sits alongside this legislation, I might add, which again leaves us with the question of why this is occurring under the urgency. We heard, again, similarly circular logic from the Minister, to the effect that she was conflating the point that this was simply a part of the coalition agreement, with no information or understanding of where that came from provided to the House\u2014but that was conflated with why this, for some reason, had to be introduced under urgency and couldn\u2019t have a select committee process. Then, we were kind of ushered towards this hypothetical of what might exist into the future, without any meaningful detail as to what that might be or contain.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019ve kind of heard all of these weird arguments, which, on the one side, have said that this thing isn\u2019t in effect yet, so therefore it\u2019s not important, but yet we have a piece of repealing legislation that is being pushed through under urgency in order to repeal that thing which apparently is also not going to be effective but is also going to be far too effective. If you\u2019re not following, Madam Speaker, that\u2019s because there is no consistency and there is no rhyme nor reason nor logic to what it is that we have heard from the Government. I think that is perhaps why every single thing that we have heard from the Minister in arguing for this legislation tonight and throughout this afternoon has come from a defensive proposition. It has not been arguing for an aspirational future. It has not been arguing for evidence or where we should be moving to a vision of a healthier Aotearoa New Zealand; in fact, it has been defending a return to the status quo\u2014back on track; or \u201Cback on baccie\u201D, as my Green colleague said earlier.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EI just really wanted to also drill into that point of the use of urgency, because I think it is a really important and salient one here, and one that has been a point of contention throughout the last few days. We\u2019ve heard, time and again, from members of the Government that the reason that they feel entitled to push this and other legislation through under urgency is because they won an election\u2014they won an election and they formed a Government, so therefore absolutely everything that they want to do, albeit that potentially only coming from one of the three coalition parties, is somehow able to be pushed through without any of the usual convention associated with the parliamentary process. So that kind of begs the question of whether they believe that authoritarian rule is \u201Call g\u201D simply because every three years we have a general election. Again, it simply begs the question of what kind of conventions of Parliament they are going to be upholding if all it takes to undermine those processes and those conventions is the fact that they were able to cobble together a Government subsequent to that election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThat then prompts another point, which is the point that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022492a78d2f33543c99f8604bb16de2aa8\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Remember 2017?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220617ea0186084db585be07170fc761a3\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014they are pushing this under urgency, because, frankly, the Hon Scott Simpson, I think they\u2019re embarrassed. That\u2019s why the Hon Dr Shane Reti is sat in the corner up there\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224da918894ea8433daec99529ac11249d\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Remember 2017, the \u201Ccoalition of the losers\u201D? Remember that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a60a0900d1814f87ad3239ee3bd28a0c\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and not on the front bench, as he should be. That is why, the Hon Scott Simpson, this has been allocated to New Zealand First and not being led by the National Party. They want New Zealanders to forget. They are ripping off the band-aid really, really quickly in the hopes that this is swept under the rug amongst all of the other heinous things that they are doing under urgency and super-quickly with hopes that, into the future, New Zealanders forget it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003EThe final thing that I think is just really important to put forward to New Zealanders out there who have been following along at home, probably quite devastated, as many who have communicated with us in the Chamber are tonight, is that they need to remember not to leave politics to the politicians, because that\u2019s what happens when you leave it to politicians and lobbyists. We oppose this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022 data-id=\u0022e364bfc0371d4553970985bf4b76b3d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e364bfc0371d4553970985bf4b76b3d8\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. If only you could ban misery. We haven\u2019t heard the Opposition give an intelligent reckoning with a second and third order of facts of prohibition of cigarettes on an emerging black market. I recommend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc7cb82707354073b650d744af1a4dbe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc7cb82707354073b650d744af1a4dbe\u0022\u003ESAM UFFINDELL (National\u2014Tauranga):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to be able to rise on this third reading. Look, we want to be really clear: we want to continue to bring smoking down in New Zealand. We\u2019ve seen it drop significantly over the past 12 years, from around 16 percent down to 8.6 percent last year, to 6.8 percent this year. On the way we\u2019re going, we will reach our goal of having the average under 5 percent by 2025. This Government is committed to that goal. I\u2019d like to note that Action for Smokefree 2025 has said that the progress we\u2019re making is unprecedented. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003EWe want to build on what has worked. We are not going to take the punitive regulatory approach that the Opposition would like us to do; we\u2019re going to build on what has worked\u2014what has continued to drive down smoking rates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b978dee7-18cf-424c-8004-b165bda971ff\u0022\u003ELook, no regulations or programmes that were in place before the election have been stopped. That is the reality. We\u2019re supporting a package of initiatives to make sure we ensure a smoke-free goal of 2025. I support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022 data-id=\u00222ad552944152495caae4d06a79a01a19\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ad552944152495caae4d06a79a01a19\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora. If the House would endure, I have decided to spend our five minutes\u2014actually, four minutes and 52 seconds\u2014on sharing and amplifying the voices of those who would have had the opportunity to have been heard had there been a process that wasn\u2019t so urgent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003ESo I would like to share some of those voices that were part of the 45,000 submissions that came through to us, and make sure that those who are a part of this petition\u2014those who are out there hoping that the politicians would hear and see them\u2014that we indeed use this platform to use our sphere of influence to bring their voices to the House. I feel very sad that they didn\u2019t get the opportunity, young and old. So, through you, e te P\u012Bka:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u201CI\u2019m a public health student in Aotearoa. Presumably this is a dead rat New Zealand First and ACT have made National swallow. I expect the action points from the regulations 2021 to be retained somehow, seeing this public pressure.\u201D That was their hope.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u201CI am a student and I see this as a step backwards. We have a duty of care and responsibility to consider and protect future generations. Let\u2019s not fail them.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u201CHalt this disgraceful and wholly cynical move to dismantle an important aspect of public health policy. Because it makes sense: we know smoking kills people and especially those who are most vulnerable. We are an advanced society. We are better than this cheap behaviour.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u201CMy three moko will be part of the generation who will never smoke. They will live longer and have healthier lives than my generation. This Government intends sacrificing my mokos to make money. Not on my watch.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u201CThis is retrograde and doesn\u2019t even make any rational economic sense. Alarming for Government posing as so-called competent managers of the economy.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u201CSmoking killed my mother at an early age. It is utterly cynical to use addiction as a way of funding tax cuts.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u201CA bad decision will destroy New Zealand generations. Please, please don\u2019t do it. This is not what people voted for. It is an unbelievable abuse of power.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u201CBecause our Government is a cooked, colonised organisation\u201D\u2014their words; not mine\u2014\u201Cwho only care for money and pleasing the investors, they are greedy and live in the clouds and are clueless as to how this law change will kill future generations and make the poor poorer. It is sick and selfish, what they want to do. Support the smoke-free legislation.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u201CThis coalition Government has already shown its true colours. Money is more important than the health and wellbeing of our wh\u0101nau.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u201CTo share my disgust with the new Government whose first act in power was to shame Aotearoa in the eyes of the progressive world\u2014we made the front page of the BBC online news page.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u201CMy mum recently died from lung cancer. I don\u2019t want a tax cut at the expense of our population\u2019s health and our world-leading smoke-free plan. The Government are evil people for thinking this was ever an option. Disgusting behaviour from National, ACT, New Zealand First.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u201CUs bottom feeders do not need a few cents\u2019 tax cut, but we do need the tobacco industry to disappear from our shores. People over profit, always.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u201CWhat possible reason is there to roll back legislation that stops tobacco companies damaging the people\u2019s health for their own profit? Wouldn\u2019t you be put in jail if you knowingly sold a product that kills people? Can\u2019t believe this petition is even necessary. Embarrassed by the new Government.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u201CAbsolutely disgusting move to willingly allow people to die by the thousands from a problem that\u2019s already been solved, because this is all about money and the new Government are disgusting and need to be held accountable. The inequity of the decision and the lack of evidence-led decision-making on this issue is shameful.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u201CThis Government is prioritising tax revenue over human health and it is shameful, because smoking kills, is horribly addictive, and is the number one risk factor in sudden infant death syndrome in babies.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u201CAbsolutely disgusting move to willingly allow people to die by the thousands from a problem\u201D\u2014again\u2014\u201Cthat\u2019s already been solved\u201D\u2014sorry. \u201CWatching a loved one escape nicotine addiction looked like trying to escape quicksand. I don\u2019t want my kids having to do that in the future, just to get the rich richer. It is outrageous to put taxes ahead of health.\u201D Kia ora r\u0101. We stand in opposition to this disgusting bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022 data-id=\u0022b52a45efb0b64efb9ba812ac73d4846e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b52a45efb0b64efb9ba812ac73d4846e\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker. The disestablishment of Te Aka Whai Ora, and now the repeal of our smoke-free legislation, within hours of each other, shows we have a Government that doesn\u2019t care for the existing health disparities between M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori, and those impacted most in low socio-economic communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EI think about taking from the poor and giving to the rich, because, as we open the floodgates for more tobacco in our communities, it is te iwi M\u0101ori and those of low socio-economic backgrounds that will be most impacted. This bill, this legislation, in my mind, is p\u014Dhauhau\u2014it is absurd. It makes me pukuriri\u2014makes me angry. It\u2019s just downright p\u014Dh\u0113h\u0113\u2014it\u2019s wrong. It\u2019s wrong because we hear from the Government all night that they\u2019re trying to build on the gains that have been made through the generations, because, yes, we have seen reductions. But can I go to the Action on Smoking and Health Year 10 Smokefree Snapshot survey and point out to the Minister that there are unacceptable gaps still between M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori in 14-year-olds who smoke. The M\u0101ori stats are 6.2 percent of year 10s across the country; for non-M\u0101ori, it is 2 percent. That is a huge gap, still. Of those young people surveyed, 25 percent of them are w\u0101hine M\u0101ori. These are taitamariki; these are our future. They are the buffer; they\u2019re the inheritors of this change. It is a dramatic change for our country because we have come so far. The smoke-free generation is now gone. It is in the ashtray. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EAs a mother of the smoke-free generation, I worry about the future of our young people. I wanted to address the Minister of M\u0101ori Development, the Hon Tama Potaka, because we share children of the same age, and appeal to him. For M\u0101ori development, we need our engine room to be strong and healthy and thriving. But tobacco impacts te iwi M\u0101ori more than any other population in New Zealand; 5,000 people die of smoking-related illnesses, te nuinga ko te iwi M\u0101ori [the majority of whom are M\u0101ori people].\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EWhat engagement has been done with te iwi M\u0101ori on the proposal to repeal the smoke-free legislation? Well, there\u2019s been none, because there was never a campaign on it. There\u2019s been none, because there\u2019s been no hui. There will be none, because we\u2019re in urgency, and New Zealanders and te iwi M\u0101ori are shut out of the process. So we stand as a small voice to advocate for those who have no voice in this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EI think about iwi accountability. While I have the Minister of Health and the Associate Minister of Health, as Ng\u0101tiwai uri, in the House, I\u2019d like to raise the fact that our iwi has invited both Ministers to meet with our people on the marae and talk about their plans to improve M\u0101ori health outcomes. E te Minita the Hon Shane Reti and Minita the Hon Casey Costello: Ng\u0101tiwai Trust Board posted today reiterating the invitation from 14 December 2023. Nau mai, hoki mai ki te k\u0101inga. [Welcome home.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EBecause in te iwi M\u0101ori, accountability isn\u2019t every three years when there\u2019s an electoral cycle; in te iwi M\u0101ori, it happens every day. In te iwi M\u0101ori, it happens on your marae, and, in te iwi M\u0101ori, it\u2019s in your direct messages as they harass you to say more\u2014when my 80-year-old auntie\u2019s messaging me saying, \u201CK\u014Dtiro, you\u2019re not saying enough. This is outrageous. Get up!\u201D and I say, \u201COh, auntie, there\u2019s a tikanga. I can\u2019t just get up any time. It\u2019s not the marae.\u201D But that\u2019s the passion that\u2019s coming from our k\u0101inga and the worry that our people have for now and into the future as we see the smoke-free generation go down the toilet, into the ashtray, and out into the harbour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EMay I invite this Government to consider presenting their plan quickly because the people of New Zealand need to know tomorrow\u2014what is the plan?\u2014not in six months\u2019 time. You\u2019re repealing this now and yet you didn\u2019t need to. Put it through the Health Committee\u2014we\u2019re all here listening, we just had our chair speak\u2014and let the people of New Zealand in for once. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022 data-id=\u0022e9cad124de134b8c9ef14840d34c958b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e9cad124de134b8c9ef14840d34c958b\u0022\u003EDr HAMISH CAMPBELL (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak on the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Amendment Bill. We have traversed the area multiple times today that, before this previous amendment came into power, we had already reduced smoking rates to a point where we have reached or nearly reached our smoke-free targets, which is less than 5 percent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222837c142-c937-468e-9984-bc646d066687\u0022\u003EWe will continue to support initiatives to provide people with practical tools and support to help them quit. You can choose to smoke; you don\u2019t choose to be a victim of crime. This bill changes the process, not the goal, and there are better ways to reduce harm. Prohibition approaches do not have the greatest track record. Therefore, I recommend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u0022b259859845e343a296c05624357b7f9e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b259859845e343a296c05624357b7f9e\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker, and thank you for the opportunity to speak on this piece of legislation this evening. It is a dark day in this Parliament today. We started with the disestablishment of Te Aka Whai Ora, and, at that time, I did a passionate speech, a well-prepared speech, because I spend a lot of time with health practitioners, people that are in my ear telling me to do better. I started that speech talking about my marae in the valley of Moawhango, and the Rangit\u012Bkei\u2014the person that is talking over my speech at the moment that represents that rohe\u2014and, like H\u016Bhana Lyndon, I appeal to the Minister for M\u0101ori Development tonight. And what I didn\u2019t say today is that in this room we have whanaunga connections. We share a tipuna, the Minister for M\u0101ori Development and I, in M\u014Dkai P\u0101tea and across to Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori with Takutai Natasha Kemp.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EAnd what I said this morning is that when I go back to my marae in Moawhango, I hope that I can say that I have done better by my service in this House. M\u0101ori members of Parliament are held to an additional threshold to everyone else in this Parliament. Yes, we all serve our communities, yes, we serve our constituents, but, at the end of the day, we go back to our marae and we explain to our people. At the start of today, we explained that we\u2019ll be going back to our marae to say that we\u2019ve lost the fight today to take seven years off their life, and, under this one, that we go backwards on addressing health inequities and particularly the rates of smoking for M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EThe Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products (Smoked Tobacco) Amendment Act 2022 would have reduced tobacco outlets from 6,000\u20146,000\u2014to 600, denicotinised tobacco, and created a smoke-free generation\u2014a smoke-free generation. But what is important is listening to the voices that we usually hear in this House. And I am saddened that up here in the gallery, just like in the disestablishment of Te Aka Whai Ora, people aren\u2019t here hearing the debates \u0101-kanohi\u2014in person\u2014feeling the wairua of this discussion, because it\u2019s shameful. It is disgraceful\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269e2ecf85b394c8ca4f310b70cbc31a0\u0022\u003ECameron Brewer\u003C/span\u003E: You had your chance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c8bb2dab4dd44cfa81c4659144d170a\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and it is an assault on M\u0101ori, Cameron Brewer. These two pieces of legislation impact our people, impact our rangatahi, and impact our tamariki, because, like many, I have grown up intergenerationally with smokers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EThe person just before who said it\u2019s a choice to smoke: after generation after generation after generation, do you really think that our rangatahi have a choice not to smoke? Today, you choose not to protect them. You should hang your heads in shame, because not everyone\u2019s on track\u2014not everyone\u2019s on track. If you read H\u0101pai te Hauora\u2019s comments on this particular kaupapa, M\u0101ori will not reach the 5 percent target for a smoke-free 2025. Modelling shows that unless we act with urgency, M\u0101ori will be left behind and not reach this goal till 2040.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EThe smoking rates for M\u0101ori remain alarmingly high at 17.1 percent, compared to our non-M\u0101ori counterparts at 6.1 percent. M\u0101ori continue to face substantial barriers to quitting smoking. Low-income communities have four times more tobacco retailers situated in their communities, hooking more wh\u0101nau into addiction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003ENow, that word \u201Curgency\u201D is important, but not in terms of urgency in this House. It is a failure on our democracy, tonight, that we haven\u2019t taken the time to allow the critical voices of M\u0101ori to participate in this debate. Just as importantly, we have not allowed the voices, the expertise, and the evidence from health practitioners to come and contribute to this debate, to hold the Government to account\u2014just like this side of the House is tonight. It is an embarrassment that you have chosen to ram through such legislation through this House in urgency, not allowing those voices to have a say. Not just have a say\u2014but because these are such sensitive kaupapa that affect our indigenous people, therefore they affect everyone in Aotearoa New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EThe question has to be asked: who\u2019s moving who? Who is the boss in this Government? Because Luxon, our Prime Minister, says that he\u2019s serious about the outcomes for M\u0101ori, but here we see the first health policy from this Government and all it promotes for M\u0101ori is death\u2014is death. That is the reality of what we are talking about tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EI am passionate about this topic because, at the start of the year\u2014my wh\u0101nau are impacted by decisions such as these. It is a difficult journey for any family that has to go through a cancer scare, a cancer diagnosis of those loved ones close to you. And when you sit in that doctor\u2019s room and hear that information come through, you sit and think about \u201CWhat could have I done?\u201D\u2014what could have I done? So tonight, colleagues, members of Parliament, my whanaunga the Minister of M\u0101ori Development, the Minister of Health\u2014a health practitioner that signed up, as a doctor, to do no harm to others; to do no harm to others. To my colleagues on this side of the House who have stood all day, shoulder to shoulder to fight these shocking pieces of legislation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dae7ca487ec34b17a4dc74ee54006337\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Most of them weren\u2019t here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fb4e3ece118426ba9546e3de0986ee4\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve been here all day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c0d7d213ff0404f85c257210d7bb11d\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Most of them haven\u2019t been.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283502230324c44d2840042f8d8aa3814\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: The assault\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269cfeb7be1494ee3bd63934b7e844751\u0022\u003EIngrid Leary\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Madam Speaker. There was an interjection suggesting that members were not here. That\u2019s against parliamentary rules.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c012f608c3e041609eb98be62fd3d172\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: There was nobody named in that interjection. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248a9e559a7054596b56e40a005801728\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019ll continue. In my one-minute 30 that I have left, I ask: who\u2019s the boss? Who\u2019s actually making the decisions? How do people come into this Parliament with such motivation that they didn\u2019t campaign on? But, yes, each of you have to go back to your communities and explain what happened, because I know that the wh\u0101nau in Maraenui do not support this piece of legislation, that they will be impacted the most; that the people in Rongowhakaata down to Tair\u0101whiti, they will be impacted by this piece of legislation. The people in Massey, one of the most deprived parts of Auckland\u2019s North Shore\u2014they do not support this legislation. And so, each of you, I look at you and ask you to dig deep, because, while this is a political environment, we have an obligation to serve, to do better, to care for our wh\u0101nau, and to ensure that we protect generations to come. The arrogance that I have seen from that side of the House, in such a sensitive kaupapa this evening, is disgraceful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022 data-id=\u0022e7f29867382d4f42be67fee2ffcc06ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e7f29867382d4f42be67fee2ffcc06ee\u0022\u003EDr CARLOS CHEUNG (National\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E We want to make it clear this Government is still committed to the Smokefree 2025 goal. Just because we use a different approach doesn\u2019t mean that we can\u2019t achieve the same outcome. Our policy is to help people quit smoking and to stop young people from starting smoking and vaping. Therefore, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe46d47d201d4a66bb56e4f0169c21a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe46d47d201d4a66bb56e4f0169c21a3\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E I am disgusted that that previous speaker, Carlos Cheung, on this important kaupapa, gave 12 seconds of his care, his life, and his attention to this incredibly important matter. It is not too late for members of the Government to do the right thing, and that is to do the right thing in principle, with a moral compass, and to do the right thing by their constituents, who overwhelmingly do not want this repeal. I can tell you that the latest data from the Health Coalition Aotearoa is 53,000 signatures, not 45,000. Today, there has been a groundswell of signatures from people imploring their MPs, imploring their Government MPs, to do the right thing. It is not too late, as I said previously. They can cross the floor tonight. They can treat this with their conscience and do the right thing and make history and restore faith in our democratic system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThis is a very, very sad day for New Zealand democracy. We have lost the M\u0101ori Health Authority under urgency. We are losing this battle. We have got moments to go in which these MPs can do the right thing. We have lost a major news organisation. These are the checks and balances on unfettered power, and what we have seen has been wholly inadequate in the way that this Government has treated this bill. I would like to say that the sniggering and sneering and treating with contempt and the joking kind of approach that we have seen from members opposite says so much about the fact of what they think about this kaupapa and how they feel about the fact that 8,000 lives are at stake\u20148,000 lives that could\u2019ve been saved. They will have blood on their hands.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWhat was so appalling tonight was the committee of the whole House stage. We tried to get answers out of the Associate Minister of Health the Hon Casey Costello, and, to her credit, she is not the one doing the sniggering. She is sitting there, but she did not answer our questions. She went round and round in circles. We asked her about the rationale. We asked her what was so prescient to make this a bill that had to go through urgency and that needed to happen with very scant evidence, if no evidence, because we could not get any evidence of the evidence. We got no answers from her. There was a reference to a coalition agreement; it was a tautology. It was just useless. We are seeing the removal of the smoke-free generation in one fell swoop.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWhen people put amendments forward to say, \u201CWhat about just changing the number of retail outlets? Let\u2019s just compromise a little bit.\u201D, this Government was not having a bar of it; the Minister was not having a bar of it. Denicotinisation, that very difficult word that we struggle with\u2014that would\u2019ve made a huge difference, even if we didn\u2019t go the whole hog. The Minister was not prepared to budge on it, and there were no reasons given as to why she was so firmly positioned supporting the tobacco lobbies with this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThere were questions about regulation, about normal consumer protections that apply to every other retail sector. We didn\u2019t get any answers. The way this has been done, it has been\u2014pardon the pun\u2014smoke and mirrors. There was no campaign on this. There was no select committee. There has been a shameful abuse of urgency, in my view, and there haven\u2019t really been adequate interviews in the media, the fourth estate, which is one of the last checks and balances\u2014the Minister has refused to engage with them. Then we find out today in question time, oh, there\u2019s going to be revenue gained, revenue that will help to pay for tax cuts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThe members opposite have some time to cross the floor. In the meantime, as they ponder that, whether they will do the right thing, I promise New Zealanders that we on this side of the House will continue to remind them every single week of this shameful piece of legislation, right up till the election. May I implore through you, Madam Speaker, to those outside watching this: do not forget this moment. Do not forget that this Government has thrown our children under the bus, our smoke-free generation. When it comes time to the election, whether that is in 18 months or whether that is in three years, this should be what makes you cast your vote. Don\u2019t you ever forget, because they have blood on their hands.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240f73bdb37fc439280db97c560076503\u0022\u003ETodd Stephenson\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Madam Speaker. That is unparliamentary language. \u201CBlood on their hands\u201D infers that the members of the Government are actually murdering people and that should be a withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247ad3fb87ac3412d9305344083611714\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022f28363a4b24543028821ccaf5328aefe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f28363a4b24543028821ccaf5328aefe\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I never actually called the point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022169c2deb2f364600a337fffd15436cbd\u0022\u003ETodd Stephenson\u003C/span\u003E: Oh well, I\u2019m going to say it again, then. Point of order, Madam Speaker?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d012bd5f3a4459f809d5a449bb5d783\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: Just checking: are you calling the point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bfc3a1a7ce7455bb5dc7b3e547e5017\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022 data-id=\u0022661b84723200404db7bbe13f8a150dbb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022661b84723200404db7bbe13f8a150dbb\u0022\u003ECAMERON BREWER (National\u2014Upper Harbour):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to use one of these last closing calls from the National Party to pay tribute to Dame Tariana Turia and the work that she did 14 years ago with the Smokefree 2025 initiative, and the work that she did with Bill English and John Key in that fifth National Government on Smokefree 2025 to halve smoking rates\u2014and we\u2019ve done better than that\u2014the two pieces of landmark legislation in 2011 and 2014 under the National Government. In fact, on 18 October in the New Zealand Herald: \u201CDame Tariana Turia believes more can be accomplished for M\u0101ori health under National\u201D. That was the headline. So I want to pay tribute to Dame Tariana and the work that she did and to tell her that we will reinforce that work, we will reinvigorate that work, we will recharge that work, and we will relaunch that work. We are committed to Smokefree 2025, and we\u2019re on track. I commend the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022389e0f50867b478291bc1d8e991d8ffb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022389e0f50867b478291bc1d8e991d8ffb\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker\u2014thank you. It\u2019s not a pleasure, but it is something that I have to do in so far as talking in this third reading of this bill. It\u2019s not a pleasure, because it\u2019s a really sad day. I think that Cameron Brewer\u2019s contribution that he just made possibly sounded a little bit different in his head, because I\u2019m not entirely sure that anybody he referenced in that contribution would be thinking the same things as he just regaled us with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EThe Minister has repeatedly said that this isn\u2019t the end position. She wants to see a stop to smoking\u2014sounds good. And further, she is continuing the continuation of her work on strategies that will reach a smoke-free target. Yet throughout this process, she hasn\u2019t been able to give anyone any confidence whatsoever that she has a single idea, let alone a good idea, that will actually work. She had the audacity earlier to say it\u2019s an emotional issue. It\u2019s not an emotional issue; it\u2019s a deadly issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EFrankly, with the poor judgment that\u2019s been shown to date throughout this debate, which has only taken one day, when it should have gone through a proper process rather than urgency, there has been a complete lack of understanding of the fundamentals. A complete lack of understanding of what evidence is, of what empirical evidence is, of what the modelling shows, and all of the work that numerous experts have done in this domain over many years. Does the Minister really think that anyone now trusts her to come up with some magic solutions that no one\u2019s thought of before? Because she\u2019s just hiffed out the universally acknowledged gold standard, and it\u2019s been chucked in the bin in this unceremonious, unruly, ridiculous way in urgency tonight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EWhen I think about the harm that this causes, it really does make me feel a little bit livid. This change can\u2019t be justified from any health perspective at all. There is no health perspective in this debate. There is no logic or health logic in anything that\u2019s going on in this House tonight. We will see more people suffer, we will see more people be sick, and, therefore, more people clogging up our hospitals with the healthcare costs that are associated with that down the line, with the people that then miss out on the treatments that they need because of that, not to mention the associated costs of just people not being at work\u2014the productivity costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EThe harms that tobacco does in our communities are clear. And the evidence\u2014actual evidence\u2014shows us that the smoke-free legislation that we introduced in 2022 that\u2019s been hiffed out tonight would have saved about 8,000, and that is nothing to sniff at, is it? That\u2019s 8,000 human beings who would be alive if this Government had the fortitude to carry on with a piece of legislation that was delivered to them on a plate, apart from the fact that they have to pander to the tobacco lobby to repeal it. It would have extended M\u0101ori life expectancy and it would have saved about $5 billion in healthcare costs, and that\u2019s a real shame.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a particular shame because, when we consider the impetus for this, the reality is that the Government\u2019s simply turning a blind eye to that damage. They\u2019re turning a blind eye and they\u2019re resolutely ignoring everything that\u2019s gone on tonight because they need to fund tax cuts. It\u2019s an indictment on this Government\u2019s priorities that we\u2019re literally here repealing smoke-free laws to fund tax cuts that are disproportionately favourable to our most wealthy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003ENow, many people have said, and let me reiterate, the National Party did not campaign on this repeal at the election. New Zealanders, I think, have been quite shocked. I know I\u2019ve certainly run into people who have had some buyers\u2019 remorse. They\u2019ve been shocked by the plans to scrap this legislation, and it\u2019s been described as a dirty deal done behind closed doors. Other people on the other side have interjected to say it\u2019s a coalition arrangement\u2014it\u2019s a coalition agreement. The Minister herself even expanded that to say it wasn\u2019t just the New Zealand First - National coalition agreement; it was the National-ACT coalition agreement as well, as if that somehow made it better. As I said: dirty deal done behind closed doors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003ENational has cherry-picked details to misrepresent and deliberately mislead the public, and you could see this happening as they tippytoed up to this issue before they dropped the bomb. They said things like there would be only one store in Northland retailing tobacco, when there would actually be 35. They were sowing the seeds of all that misinformation just to prepare the public for this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003ETwo more points. The other main impetus cited for the scrapping is the black market. We\u2019ve talked about it earlier on tonight. Historically, we know\u2014we know\u2014there is little evidence that these measures significantly increase illicit tobacco trade in New Zealand or anywhere else in the world. I think it\u2019s a real shame when things like that are brought into the debate and used to scare people. It\u2019s the bogeyman, isn\u2019t it? The black market! It doesn\u2019t exist. Past tobacco control measures, despite claims from the tobacco industry\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f91b953725141009d8aaa8a5786ce70\u0022\u003ETim Costley\u003C/span\u003E: What?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae050a9af0f9427084f25bfaca787b1d\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN\u003C/span\u003E: It does exist on the websites of the tobacco industries. It does exist in the minds of some economists who are very motivated to do that. But it hasn\u2019t been shown to empirically exist in any meaningful way to warrant this scrapping.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EThe other thing that is the impetus behind this, which does not balance out 8,000 lives lost and does not balance out $5 billion wasted, is that the data used to justify this wasn\u2019t accurate because it was as current as 2019. Again, that\u2019s another example of a Minister who doesn\u2019t understand statistics completely misunderstanding the use of whole numbers versus trends, modelling, and all the other expertise that go into making those accounts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EThe public response is something that I want to finish my contribution on. Health professionals and groups all across the country, I think, have been quite loud and quite clear when they have said that they don\u2019t want to see this repeal. We absolutely, on this side of the House, are completely united when we share those concerns, and we worry about those vocalisations about these health groups, because we know that they\u2019re the experts. We know that they know what they\u2019re talking about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EPolling commissioned by Health Coalition Aotearoa showed that 67 percent of New Zealanders supported our smoke-free legislation. Hundreds of health groups have signed open letters opposing this repeal. We saw rallies and demonstrations organised throughout the country in Auckland, Wellington, and Christchurch, organised by the Association of Salaried Medical Specialists and organised by the New Zealand Nurses Organisation, where we literally saw health professionals\u2014mainly health professionals\u2014carrying posters of \u201CDr Shane Cigareti\u201D. They had health posters showing Hamish Campbell, sitting over there, and Dr Vanessa Weenink. They were holding posters because they were so shocked that people from the medical professions would be part of this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EI want to reiterate my colleague Ingrid Leary\u2019s plea prior: it is not too late. You can cross the House, and you can do the right thing. I know that you\u2019ve been under pressure. I know that the people who work in health, in particular, have been under a huge amount of pressure. But it\u2019s not too late.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EActually, speaking of the Hon Dr Reti, he can\u2019t escape and he can\u2019t run from his responsibilities for this decision. Just because the first thing he did was to callously delegate this to a brand new Minister, who is clearly out of her depth, who clearly does not understand the legislation, does not take away from the part that he\u2019s played in turning this legislation backwards. He campaigned on a health system being in crisis, and the first thing he does is actually repeal a piece of legislation that would properly do something to address that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EThis repeal helps nobody but the tobacco industry, and that has been said on numerous occasions, even with some warning about not going too far. I don\u2019t know if we can go too far with this. This repeal helps nobody but the tobacco industry. In fact, the Government\u2019s talking points have literally been cribbed from their websites. You could make a table. We have made a table: what the Government\u2019s saying; what they\u2019re saying on their website\u2014it\u2019s deplorable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EYet we also have the mystery of that document\u2014that mysterious document proposing tax cuts, written by goodness knows who\u2014magically appearing in the Minister\u2019s office, which she passed on to officials. All of that adds up to the fact that this stinks. It\u2019s a sad day. I feel embarrassed for all of the people on that side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022 data-id=\u00222ad89d9825bc48d9bf9572189465ca00\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ad89d9825bc48d9bf9572189465ca00\u0022\u003ETIM COSTLEY (National\u2014\u014Ctaki):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m not sure what kind of world we\u2019re living in these days. It seems to be that we\u2019re now in the ultimate nanny State. That\u2019s what they want. They believe that the Government can just legislate and all the problems will go away. There\u2019s no responsibility on the individual! There\u2019s no personal responsibility! \u201CWe\u2019ll just rule it out and turn on the blinkers. There\u2019s no black market\u201D\u2014clearly wasn\u2019t listening to her colleagues being emphatic the other day, where Customs said the biggest issue they have on the black market is tobacco. They\u2019re asking for consistency and they want to have a smoke-free generation, but the Green Party also want to introduce new drugs to smoke.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll tell you what I believe in. It\u2019s not just in mucking around with supply. It\u2019s about killing the demand. It\u2019s about giving people the tools to actually tackle this. That\u2019s how we\u2019ll do it. That\u2019s what we\u2019re focused on. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022881304adf0a346f98d2af71144a206da\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001601\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022128abe047e814639a224b05b28d4fd45\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a94611bcc96a40979cbce3360bea8123\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u00221c9e5c48185a4b10a09e989e62254a62\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221c9e5c48185a4b10a09e989e62254a62\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Madam Speaker. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Given that it\u2019s 10 to midnight and we\u2019ve just finished that item of business, I wondered: could I move that the House rise rather than to start the next item on the Order Paper\u2014which the Minister would find himself cut off in the middle of his speech?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00223931ecb245154f6fabbc34d0e207d9ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223931ecb245154f6fabbc34d0e207d9ce\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Are you seeking leave?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u0022e5169cf1bc744a6c85296dd9b029d130\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e5169cf1bc744a6c85296dd9b029d130\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m seeking leave for the House to rise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022aecd821315fb4c2ebd7c378b9d6a5586\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aecd821315fb4c2ebd7c378b9d6a5586\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll put the leave. Is everybody in agreement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f45fb955caa1431ab046216c60d47bdf\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d24428116b77428db1c11e1b2004d623\u0022\u003ELand Transport Management (Repeal of Regional Fuel Tax) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229ebca2ddafbf4f79bfde7083ffd17e6d\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00224159d13f4138475c9688376277478df5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224159d13f4138475c9688376277478df5\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Land Transport Management (Repeal of Regional Fuel Tax) Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203974f238c9a4aa89b2cd9132a07fb7e\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ca2dcdec32c460b8a6a594574695d77\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Land Transport Management (Repeal of Regional Fuel Tax) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EMadam Speaker, it\u2019s getting a bit late here at Parliament and I know the other side are very keen to go home, but it\u2019s a great day for Aucklanders. We are repealing the Auckland regional fuel tax and kicking off the parliamentary process to get rid of Labour\u2019s Auckland regional fuel tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe bill will remove Labour\u2019s regressive 11.5c per litre Auckland regional fuel tax, which has been adding a significant cost to Aucklanders over the past few years, adding pain at the petrol pump but failing to deliver the infrastructure that this tax promised to Aucklanders. This legislation to remove this tax is a key priority in the coalition Government\u2019s 100-day plan, and I want to start by acknowledging my National Party colleagues and my ACT and New Zealand First Party colleagues for supporting this bill through the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EAucklanders voted for change at the last election, last year; 57.8 percent of Aucklanders voted for the coalition Government. So when members opposite will get up shortly, maybe in another part of this debate, and try and claim that they have some sort of moral mandate on what Aucklanders think\u2014well, Aucklanders voted for change, they voted for the parties in this Government, and we were elected on the promise of axing the Auckland regional fuel tax. And it might sound radical, but we are delivering on this promise. We campaigned on it, we promised it, people voted for it, and now we are delivering it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThere are a number of reasons why the coalition Government is progressing with this bill. Firstly, fuel costs are a significant cost to taxpayers, to households, and this bill will provide relief for households and Aucklanders who have been facing a high cost of living. For example, for those who drive a Toyota Corolla, around $5.75 per tank; for those who drive a Toyota Hilux, around $9.20 per tank\u2014this will make a significant difference. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EMembers opposite, who, when they put this legislation into Parliament, said this tax was going to deliver major infrastructure projects for Auckland, was going to deliver Mill Road down through South Auckland\u2014a major new highway to unlock the south of Auckland\u2014well, their project\u2019s been cancelled more times than it\u2019s been started by that Government. They said they were going to deliver other major infrastructure projects across Auckland, but what have they delivered? Well, I\u2019ll read some of the projects on the list. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ESpeed bumps\u2014speed bumps. So you\u2019ve got 11.5c per litre additional fuel tax being charged on Aucklanders, and what do they get? A speed bump to slow them down. And not only a speed bump, but Auckland Transport have become perfectionists at building the most expensive speed bumps. The most expensive speed bumps in the world, in fact: close to $500,000. That\u2019s right, close to $500,000 for a speed bump in Auckland. What a significant waste of money. That is not what Aucklanders want to see.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EBut also red light cameras: so we\u2019re having a fuel tax, meant to pay for to improve infrastructure, now being used to, basically, put red light cameras in place. And, look, red light cameras have their place, but I\u2019m not sure if that\u2019s what Aucklanders thought they were signing up for when they were told 11.5c per litre extra was what they were going to pay. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EAnd let\u2019s add another one to the list: slowing speed limits down. You\u2019re paying more for your fuel, to get a slower speed limit to get around Auckland. I don\u2019t think that was what Aucklanders thought they were signing up for when the Auckland regional fuel tax was put in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThere are many good reasons to get rid of this tax. Now, there is also another good reason to get rid of this tax. The reality is this tax hasn\u2019t even been able to be spent. There is over $300 million\u2014over $300 million\u2014sitting in a bank account, unspent. That is over two years\u2019 worth of Auckland regional fuel tax revenues\u2014two years of Auckland regional fuel tax revenue which has not even been spent. There is a failure to even deliver against the speed bump targets that Auckland Transport and Auckland Council sought to set. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EAnd so we don\u2019t think it\u2019s right to continue to tax Aucklanders, when they\u2019re not getting the delivery on the infrastructure that Aucklanders need. We think that they\u2019re not even managing to deliver against that tax with hundreds of millions of dollars of unspent revenues. So this legislation will repeal the Auckland regional tax fuel tax. It won\u2019t just repeal it for Auckland; we are disestablishing the regional fuel tax legislation, which will mean that there will not be the ability under legislation for any regional fuel tax to be put in place in other regions as well. We think that is the right approach, rather than this rinky-dink approach that has been employed by the last Government and has failed to deliver whilst increasing taxes for Aucklanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe question will be asked\u2014and I know members opposite have been asking a range of questions\u2014in regard to the remaining funds. I know Aucklanders will want to be clear as to what is happening\u2014$340 million, and we\u2019re proposing that this fuel tax will end on 1 July this year, which could mean there will be additional revenue raised between now and then. That date is intentional: it aligns with the Auckland Council\u2019s annual budget plan, in terms of the fact that we don\u2019t want to end the tax partway through their budget year. So that will mean there will be further revenues collected between now and then. This legislation means that those revenues will be ring-fenced to some priority projects that are under way in Auckland and have been identified in conversations with Auckland mayor Wayne Brown.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThere are three particular categories. The first one is the City Rail Link trains and stabling, and that will mean that the continuation of that investment will support the City Rail Link. Let\u2019s talk about the City Rail Link for a second. It was started by the last National Government. It will be delivered under the coalition Government in 2026\u2014unlike light rail, or \u201Clight fail\u201D, as I call it: $228 million and not one metre of track laid after six years, spinning the wheels on the ghost train in Auckland and not getting anywhere. So that\u2019s the first project.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe second one is the Eastern Busway in Reeves Road and a flyover which will help connect the eastern suburbs into the rail network. The third one will be some local roading improvements, including the important Glenvar Road and East Coast Road intersection upgrade, and also Lake Road in the great electorate of the North Shore.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ESo that is what this legislation does. This Government is committed to delivering on our promises. We were elected on a mandate, we\u2019re now delivering on our promises, and I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022adf7a6da72df462c90fc1058f5371211\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022adf7a6da72df462c90fc1058f5371211\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EMembers, the Government has indicated that it does not wish to progress business further tonight. This debate is therefore interrupted and set down for resumption next sitting day. The House is adjourned until 2 p.m. tomorrow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2024022779d3f211bbd445089b9670b3a8eafa79001631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 12 midnight (Wednesday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"