"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ce74b5bda7fb4dd499523098b2052ce8\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 5 MARCH 2024\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f7cbc55926df40f0927f84940c771d30\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 5 MARCH 2024\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002290da3c3a44c94fd3ab71227e097c5533\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d37fa231267e49678c78c2561063e6e7\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022c791aa15b26c45f1b3dffd840b6271ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c791aa15b26c45f1b3dffd840b6271ff\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Almighty God, we give thanks for the blessings which have been bestowed on us. Laying aside all personal interests, we acknowledge the King and pray for guidance in our deliberations that we may conduct the affairs of this House with wisdom, justice, mercy, and humility for the welfare and peace of New Zealand. Amen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e31577116fcd4449912ca0db54b2d7a0\u0022\u003ESpeaker\u2019s Rulings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022950325be68f242caaea0a084e9dbee1c\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u2014Appropriate Use\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1b60898b6924f10a3f5f71e97eb2b25\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1b60898b6924f10a3f5f71e97eb2b25\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members\u2014this may be helpful for the member\u2014a number of members have raised with me the issue of too frequent a use of the point of order process to raise trivial points of order. In future, when a member raises a point of order, I expect them to indicate the rule or practice of the House that they think has been breached. Raising a point of order without doing so will be considered disorderly. Of course, members may continue to use points of order to draw my attention to their wish to exercise a right given by Standing Orders, such as to seek leave, to make a personal explanation, or to move a motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227b4d75f2c1c14bc2b8e98ef73778262e\u0022\u003EPersonal Explanations\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fa4f290c5dee43c29317e0eb655e5889\u0022\u003EUnparliamentary Language\u2014Apology\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022 data-id=\u0022193b0599cefa48e7b0775c15546951ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022193b0599cefa48e7b0775c15546951ad\u0022\u003ETIM COSTLEY (National\u2014\u014Ctaki):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek leave to make a personal explanation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5bbacee702349738d4d856ce5822192\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection for that purpose? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f32cd1c1f3c04821891458140fdd10b5\u0022\u003ETIM COSTLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Last Thursday, in debate, towards the end of the day, I made an unparliamentary remark, which I know some members took offence at. I\u2019d like to apologise unreservedly for this; I did not mean to cause offence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a48b1282b10496db5c7e79ee99120f4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225f8f1652f1e14841b351c36029352793\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e119e8556e4a4715ad06c7d606e2921a\u0022\u003EPetitions, Papers, Select Committee Reports, and Introduction of Bills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002266ed81ace31b4353b023e4bfd4f76d12\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002266ed81ace31b4353b023e4bfd4f76d12\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Petitions have been delivered to the Clerk for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022806b2699a0f346b58fd89722b9db8581\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022806b2699a0f346b58fd89722b9db8581\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EPetition of Chris Hickson requesting that the House ensure that the Treaty principles bill does not go further than the select committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Epetition of Christopher MacDonald requesting that the House pass legislation requiring all buses older than 10 years to have an additional compliance process between each certificate of fitness\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Epetition of Rasy Sao requesting that the House urge the Government to support the restoration of human rights in Cambodia in the context of the United Nations Universal Periodic Review.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022d01cee4b46ce48df8a973595bf4c8ba6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d01cee4b46ce48df8a973595bf4c8ba6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those petitions stand referred to the Petitions Committee. Ministers have delivered papers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u00226670b57245644cc9b087132a6c411c0a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226670b57245644cc9b087132a6c411c0a\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EReport on unappropriated expenses in capital expenditure for the financial year ended 30 June 2023\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EGovernment responses to the:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Ereport of the Finance and Expenditure Committee on the inquiry into the future nature, impact, and risks of cryptocurrencies\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Ereport of the Finance and Expenditure Committee on the briefing on banks\u2019 processes and consumer protections for scams\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Ereport of the Petitions Committee on temporary post-earthquake visas; and\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003Ereport of the Standing Orders Committee on the Review of Standing Orders 2023.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002214e919985b504823922e374860dd2137\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002214e919985b504823922e374860dd2137\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I present the annual report of the Commissioner for Parliamentary Standards for the year ending 31 December 2023. Those papers are published under the authority of the House. A select committee report has been delivered for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022624c3c0815a84de6a6c20d61225b9d75\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022624c3c0815a84de6a6c20d61225b9d75\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: Report of the Regulations Review Committee on the Complaint about the Resource Management (National Environmental Standards for Freshwater) Regulations 2020.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022d3ea3895603443049d3de428abbc673d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d3ea3895603443049d3de428abbc673d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That report is set down for consideration. The Clerk has been informed of the introduction of bills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022d94dc5ca2e614825a429d632f21a7cde\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d94dc5ca2e614825a429d632f21a7cde\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EFirearms Prohibition Orders Legislation Amendment Bill, introduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EAppropriation (2022/23 Confirmation and Validation) Bill, introduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EEvidence (Giving Evidence of Family Violence) Amendment Bill, introduction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022e20c3b25b9b1433faf9a4b64aee92ced\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e20c3b25b9b1433faf9a4b64aee92ced\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those bills are set down for first reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228abce77a74244340b16f3384da20057a\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222f76a415532949369dd32a05a2e3e143\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ba1fe9b53b78496d8097e378ce150945\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022d66c1440a32c46be9d0c883e2bc2100a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d66c1440a32c46be9d0c883e2bc2100a\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Acting Prime Minister: Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u002255a10d44bcc84815b4f41d13680f3766\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002255a10d44bcc84815b4f41d13680f3766\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Acting Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, in the context in which they were given. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca297b85b07643fc9f9259794c8b21f3\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Why has he broken his promise of no new taxes and no increases in fuel tax, given yesterday he announced a driver\u2019s tax through hiking registration fees, plus a 22c per litre increase in fuel taxes, albeit on a delayed timetable? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022435695d1b0f04f6c8008ff56a8e75614\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: As the Acting Prime Minister, I made no such announcements yesterday. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ec952dc18964e3dac52a7292089a3e0\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Why isn\u2019t he willing to defend the Government\u2019s decision to break the promises the Prime Minister made before the election? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255c92bbd96714564acf2fa2920cee985\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Again, as the Acting Prime Minister, I stand by the things that I say, and I\u2019m very happy to begin by giving that group a lesson in constitutional law in this country, about how this Parliament is properly run under the Standing Orders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a666bf8f59246108522af5246387809\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Who is correct: Nicola Willis, who said, \u201CWe\u2019re not increasing taxes. We\u2019re making an adjustment to a fee.\u201D, or Nicola Willis, who said, \u201CIf it looks like a tax and it quacks like a tax, it\u2019s a tax.\u201D? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca7bb995d1e14c4c9cd166123770d40d\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, obviously, the first statement she was making was on behalf of this Government, and the second statement she was making was on behalf of the last one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d7a6bdf3d8e4e89bc21438d8e2f53e0\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking of statements made by the last Government, who is correct: Christopher Luxon, who said, \u201Cthey\u2019ve got a culture of entitlement at the heart of this Government, right? They think they\u2019re entitled to your money. They think they\u2019re entitled to waste it.\u201D, or Christopher Luxon, who said, \u201CI\u2019m entitled to the entitlements that everybody else has [at the moment].\u201D? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be762446d44348ba9db3705616505123\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: The first statement that he was making was on his behalf, but I do support that statement. With the second one, he was pointing to what happens when you have 30 years of managerial neglect when it comes to Government properties\u2014much of which was the responsibility of that Government over there\u2014that sees millions and millions of dollars of assets wasted because of ideology, and I can recite all of the circumstances of that, which have now cost the taxpayer so much more money than looking after Ministers. But it began with the ideology of a man called Roger\u00A0Douglas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b76504964384e0285ff0345872b02bc\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: What is the total cost of retrospectively restoring mortgage interest deductibility for rental properties, and how many school lunches would that pay for? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022374d4a998e564d3b8b3b366624d2a3cf\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: First of all, that will be itemised with particularity by the Minister of Finance, and on the second question, of course we have always been supportive of the programme for school lunches, but we have to evaluate\u2014which that Government sought a report on\u2014to see whether it was money being well spent, and in July of 2023, they received a very damning report from Treasury saying the converse. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd9430cb4d1d4f38b43419bc5a92ea19\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Which best sums up his Government\u2019s priorities: tax breaks for landlords at the expense of kids\u2019 school lunches, attacking beneficiary entitlements whilst claiming a $1,000-a-week housing allowance he doesn\u2019t need, or abolishing an initiative to improve M\u0101ori health outcomes in the same week his Government passed a law change that will increase smoking? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e446aa0e2e1b4b87b7a7c5cb88fab1b3\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, first of all, I\u2019ll deal with the last one. The last statement is demonstrably untrue. The law written in\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c208059273443818db39f3fbdd526da\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, here comes the tobacco lobby talking points. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022669510d7d0c44838a2accfdba77a5950\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: No, not at all\u2014here comes the truth. The law was fixed up in 2018-19, which led to the biggest fall in cigarette smoking in this country\u2019s history. We are now a world leader, and that\u2019s because the law\u2014that they didn\u2019t write; we wrote it. In fact, when they were doing their amendments in 2022, people like Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick were saying that it was bound to fail because it was never focused on actual circumstances. Now, let\u2019s deal with that one there. On the second issue of calling the Prime Minister of this country squanderous, the Prime Minister on that score would be an amateur compared with what he inherited: hundreds of billions of dollars unaccounted for, over and over again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022967ec85060eb4cdc9d790d7e5bdd717f\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2014\u201Chundreds of billions\u201D? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d23b0214f55744da897a95deab3268db\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Going forward, we\u2019ll be paying for that, Mr Robertson. We\u2019ll be paying for that over the next 10 years\u2014a cost occasioned by that Minister, who threw money around like an eight-armed octopus. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202842f30df09401ea7d0ee9ffb9597db\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d just make the point that that last question was seeking an answer on opinions, which is\u2014you know, you got away with it, but it\u2019s not to be a habit. Question No. 2, in the name of Dr Vanessa Weenink. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288ac7e82d09f4cc19fef2e7e454a8bdb\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c903949c480347c4a47376afe0a8b202\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225eb5169b73b64df480780910fc1b852f\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Are you suggesting that the member\u2019s right to ask a question is now being narrowed that we can no longer ask Ministers for opinions? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240339920ed2f4b66a203a19d4153a5f5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. The point, which I should have made more clear, was that the question itself was asking Ministers to comment on what, essentially, are other people\u2019s opinions. Now, that might be useful in most circumstances, but I thought it was just a little bit\u2014given that you outlined some stark choices, it might be going just a bit too far. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237d34cfa2c9249c88f451898c55b216f\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Well, point of order, Mr Speaker. Referencing the ruling that you made at the beginning of question time, can you clarify which rule or which Standing Order you believe I breached in my question? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272b9800c3ca34b92ab2d494aab4281a4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think it\u2019s 371, and you\u2019ll find it\u2019s either (a), (b), or (c). It\u2019s the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da5cb950dcac4718b95acfaf8905af32\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Actually, I\u2019ll look it up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab7771295fee49d58a6ec93ddaf9fbf6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s three parts to it. [Interruption] Well, I think\u2014can we come back to that, because it\u2019s a fair point. But we\u2019ll move on to question No. 2. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022aabdf43bcee14948b2439fcb9c075636\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022 data-id=\u002247ebdfe9da2248e9bd4af5e362c6dcbf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247ebdfe9da2248e9bd4af5e362c6dcbf\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What recent reports has she seen on the Crown accounts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022b6f58993475c4523a6ffe2055a9d7938\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b6f58993475c4523a6ffe2055a9d7938\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Well, this morning, Treasury released the Government\u2019s financial statements for the seven months ending 31 January 2024. These show that core Crown tax revenue was $800 million below what was forecast in the Half Year Economic and Fiscal Update (HYEFU) in December. Core Crown expenses were also lower than forecast in the HYEFU by a billion dollars. The OBEGAL deficit\u2014the operating balance before gains and losses\u2014was $400 million higher than forecast. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df176df614484a2bbc84b8e660d9020e\u0022\u003EDr Vanessa Weenink\u003C/span\u003E: Why did tax revenue come in below forecast?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c144b294d3954d77af510f8f3eaaa52a\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Lower than expected tax revenue is consistent with the economy being weaker than forecast in the half-year update. Since the half-year update, GDP results indicate that New Zealand\u2019s economic slow-down occurred earlier and more deeply than previously thought. As a result, the economy will almost certainly be in a weaker position this year than was anticipated before Christmas, and this has a direct flow-on to tax revenue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226676be66350e4a7b810ecdc50f366c48\u0022\u003EDr Vanessa Weenink\u003C/span\u003E: What explains the lower OBEGAL result?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220163489bea3a4158af7db4afed789232\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The fact that the OBEGAL deficit was $400 million worse than forecast was driven by two factors: one is the core Crown results I\u2019ve just mentioned, and the other is due to State-owned enterprises (SOE) which are outside the core Crown. The SOE results include a write-down of the Cook Strait ferry project. This follows the Government\u2019s decision to decline KiwiRail\u2019s request for significant additional funding to address cost escalations in that blow-out project. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268b72947bf8241b395c88565e78826d4\u0022\u003EDr Vanessa Weenink\u003C/span\u003E: How has core Crown expenditure changed over time? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205e90badb7fb486da900fb1fd8801ec5\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Core Crown expenditure is forecast to be $140 billion over this financial year. That\u2019s a lot of money, so I went back and I looked at what Government spending was in previous years, and to my horror I found that since 2018 Government spending has increased by a total of 73 percent. That is a 73 percent increase over only six years. Once again, this shows the financial mismanagement of the previous Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c2c2b10655a4f108fe6240acca7a82d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll just come back to the member the Rt Hon Chris Hipkins: it\u2019s Standing Order 390(1) or (2) that I\u2019d be relying on. I was thinking of the Standing Orders from 2017. I\u2019m just perhaps a little behind the times from the latest publication but, none the less, the point was right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229293a15d120f408d805033b14f09889f\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Transport\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u00221e023ca49986417eac0468109bd2cdbb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e023ca49986417eac0468109bd2cdbb\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: How does the Government intend to fully fund the more than $20 billion of proposed National Land Transport Fund spending across the next three years as outlined in the draft Government Policy Statement on land transport 2024-34?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022565823cc4e584cd080be890bca81d60b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022565823cc4e584cd080be890bca81d60b\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E The member has answered his own question in his primary, but to help the member, page 29 of the draft Government policy statement (GPS) on land transport 2024 to 2034 outlines the answer to his question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f73bbfa7beb49f5807ff59ba547c858\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Will all projects in the Government policy statement on land transport be fully funded for the entirety of the project, and, if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffd6655e877e4030b7dec04c224b5b5c\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: The GPS which was released yesterday outlines the projects that we are prioritising as a Government, including the roads of national significance and major public transport projects. We\u2019ve also outlined a range of funding and financing tools to be able to deliver this infrastructure, and we expect that those new tools will be used.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022579f8063e74248338fb872a23cf675dc\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Why is he and his Government determined to make it more difficult for hard-working Kiwis by introducing a new drivers\u2019 tax by increasing motor vehicle licensing fees by an extra $50, when he and his Government promised no new taxes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022521c3c4f368d48fa893c76dd20886130\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: We said we were not going to increase the fuel excise duty (FED) and road-user charge (RUC), and that is what we have delivered in this GPS. We have not increased FED and RUC during this term of Government, but the reality is\u2014the reality is\u2014that we need to ensure that we set out the funding parameters to be able to deliver the infrastructure New Zealanders need, and that is why we have outlined FED and RUC increases from 2027.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210f0d800c2d94212b077d9236fcbb118\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister stand by his statement that registration fees are just a \u201Cone off fee that people pay\u201D, and, if so, does he expect people to only register their car once in the vehicle\u2019s lifetime, or would he like them to pay the additional $50 drivers\u2019 tax every 12 months?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f09b9cfb5bd4c00b402407e27a0bf82\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, people register their vehicle once every 12 months, and as part of that they pay a contribution. It\u2019s a payment they make once a year, and, as part of that, there is a contribution to the National Land Transport Fund, and, on this side of the House, this Government will ensure that that money is going to building and maintaining the roading network, not cycle bridges across the Auckland harbour. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022580285d488484c9ea162da9da6a52379\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just wait\u2014[Interruption] Just wait. All right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203e6774f2a4a493a9ad805f4c9756301\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister actually committed to addressing the cost of living pressures when he cancelled the proposed 12c increase to fuel excise duties, only to nearly double it with a 22c increase?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e5f0ec7640147d59b2b734f337bffc7\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we are committed to the cost of living by making sure that we axe the Auckland regional fuel tax, by making sure we have no fuel excise and road-user charges in 2024, 2025, or 2026, but we are outlining how we will sustainably fund transport investment going into the future. That\u2019s what this GPS is all about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e03d9649589c4d40b773d7b7af092f13\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: How will an 18 percent decrease in funding to council subsidies to public transport services, a 34 percent decrease in funding for public transport infrastructure, and a 49 percent decrease in funding for walking and cycling improvements have a positive impact on meeting New Zealand\u2019s climate change commitments?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296c0b9e9974144088c274f95d58e4823\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, on this side of the House, we are focusing the National Land Transport Fund on its core purpose, which is to build and maintain the roading network, and people who fill up their cars with petrol, who pay road-user charges, want to ensure that the money they\u2019re paying is going back into building and maintaining the roading network, less potholes, and making sure we have the roads for the future to unlock economic growth and productivity across New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022de594c91091846b5a9be29dd3d2aa440\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0be8bf71fd84626a6036a6d997f4141\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0be8bf71fd84626a6036a6d997f4141\u0022\u003EHon MARAMA DAVIDSON (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Acting Prime Minister: Does he stand by all his statements about educational achievement in schools?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u00225efddfeb0c634eabb0347b5264c467da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225efddfeb0c634eabb0347b5264c467da\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Acting Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, in the context in which they were delivered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a55b326aac9f46c5a407b9acdb0eba71\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Has he seen evidence from the recent Programme for International Student Assessment study which shows dropping achievement can be explained by the number of students coming to school hungry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002236986\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272664bfdfa56498b95941c16abbc66b0\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Most certainly we\u2019re aware of that report. It is a misnomer. The reasons why there is so much massive failure at school is to do with truancy and a whole lot of other reasons\u2014for an education system that began, in 1877, making school attendance compulsory. If you start there, you might start getting the education system fixed up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225683cff4e824212b814be3ac69be521\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: What is his response to findings that achievement for students in food poverty is up to four years behind their peers who never miss a meal?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221297dce79f3e466daa2b4a3f1b372a3d\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Again, the report that that member would have been aware of, commissioned by that former Government and reported on in 2023, under sections 24 and 25, does not find any such outcome in the way that member mistakenly is implying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cab453d04ec422e9e07b5c4c9f4ebc0\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Does he accept findings in the recent independent evaluation of the school lunches programme that it contributes to happier and healthier students, which is likely to result in better school outcomes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225728e2666471437da467f0534fb1c4ef\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: It was a report that also said that there was \u201Cimproving [nutrition] intake, particularly for those 7.3 percent of \u0101konga with least access to sufficient food at home\u201D. It went on to say, \u201CHowever, the evaluations have found no impact on attendance\u201D, and with respect to M\u0101ori, \u201Cwho make up around 48 percent of students receiving the programme, [they] have not benefited on most metrics, such as school functioning (e.g., paying attention in class), health, and mental wellbeing (with mental wellbeing worse off for those in the programme).\u201D Now, those are the screaming facts that M\u0101ori want to know about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022436cbe47f0534301bfab293dda0bb397\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Will he commit to improving student wellbeing and school achievement by keeping the healthy school lunches programme beyond 2025 and expanding it in the future to more learners struggling with food poverty?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d4a712b1be448b18134828606787e7f\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that member will be aware that the very programme itself had a finality about it, and that\u2019s the issue we\u2019re talking about right now that Mr Seymour is addressing. Mr Seymour is addressing whether we\u2019re getting value for money or, as we\u2019re told by so many teachers at our schools, there is such massive waste. And our job is to ensure that when we make available programmes like that, they do work. So a very sensible, rational evaluation needs to be done now rather than a screaming reaction that says that every cent spent is spent well. And it\u2019s not the case at all. Go and ask the teachers, go and ask real M\u0101ori, who know down in the schools what\u2019s going on. Ask somebody who\u2019s been in a classroom, not somebody who\u2019s forgotten what it\u2019s like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002295cbb6842ae24fe885dc48002ee2b04e\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Children\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022 data-id=\u002263b8d79b2e014bf2a3e5a03ba6eb81dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263b8d79b2e014bf2a3e5a03ba6eb81dc\u0022\u003EDr PARMJEET PARMAR (ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Children: What recent announcements, if any, has she made regarding the Government\u2019s commitment to crack down on serious youth offending?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u002296323ae7ea384dc59a74d84386e5ce3a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002296323ae7ea384dc59a74d84386e5ce3a\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. This morning I announced that we intend to have a pilot for a military-style academy for youth offenders operating from the middle of this year. The approach to serious and persistent youth offending over the past six years has clearly not been working, and something needs to change in how we respond to this group of young people to help them turn their lives around and break the cycle of offending. That is why I\u2019m proud to work with this Government in delivering on its promise to create youth offender military academies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f38f07379b96415297bd8934109e23aa\u0022\u003EDr Parmjeet Parmar\u003C/span\u003E: How will these academies differ from previous approaches to address youth offending?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226100d6aedfd74424a28bb8de859c9d70\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: The Military-style Activity Camp Programme, or the MAC Programme, was run between 2010 and 2016 in partnership between Child, Youth and Family Service and the New Zealand Defence Force. An evaluation of this programme showed positive results, with improvements in the attitude and motivation of the young people to address their offending. However, it also found that a lack of robust support once each young person left the programme meant improved outcomes were not realised to the extent they might have been. That is why this pilot is going to have a focus on rehabilitation and take a trauma-informed approach alongside the military-style component to ensure these young people receive the full wraparound support they need to turn their lives around and reduce the risk of reoffending.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257f0bb9be6d146448526ef091057dbce\u0022\u003EDr Parmjeet Parmar\u003C/span\u003E: How will the military-style academies operate in practice?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224b30a31811242b6867479ca483561cf\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Oranga Tamariki will lead and deliver the programme, working alongside other Government departments to ensure a multi-agency approach and a well-rounded programme that is not just focused on discipline and structure but works to address the underlying cause of offending. We will also work with community providers where they have the expertise and experience in working with young people who often have multiple and complex needs. While on the programme, young people will receive the counselling, drug and alcohol treatment, mentoring, and cultural support that they require.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217ff2d0c18eb456a95251f85eb7ced2b\u0022\u003EDr Parmjeet Parmar\u003C/span\u003E: What other actions is the Government taking to address serious and persistent youth offending?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e57401556d3f46fc91a6d08c6b5e4c8b\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Alongside this pilot programme, the Government is looking at legislative changes to enable stronger consequences for young people who are committing crimes. These changes include looking at establishing the military academy programme as a stand-alone sentencing option for judges, and a new young serious offender category to enable stronger sentencing powers and monitoring requirements. As I\u2019ve said before, we cannot continue with the previous approach. We owe it to these young people to do everything that we can to help them. This is not just about having consequences for their actions but actually showing them that they have it within themselves to turn their lives around and giving them the tools that they need to encourage them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225cd283c54ae84509a08002210145a379\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Transport\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u0022a6c2c4ad887e4abb9ebc21efa3ae80ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a6c2c4ad887e4abb9ebc21efa3ae80ee\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: Will his draft Government Policy Statement on land transport contribute to emissions reduction targets and reduce transport costs for people; if so, how?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00225b51e03afbee4e84901dc145e36261d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b51e03afbee4e84901dc145e36261d5\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. As the member knows, the emissions trading scheme (ETS) is the Government\u2019s key tool to reduce emissions. As the member well knows, the transport sector is covered by the ETS and the ETS caps emissions. The Government policy statement (GPS) 2024 is about delivering transport infrastructure so Kiwis can get where they need to go quickly and safely without being stuck in congestion. This Government has delivered on its commitment to not raise fuel excise duties (FED) or road-user charges (RUC) in this term.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022551ec68d0e644db6b6ec9a935ca4ca3b\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: How can people choose to avoid paying ETS prices and higher prices to use cars when his draft GPS cuts funding to public transport services, public transport infrastructure, walking, and cycling\u2014basically every alternative to using a car?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297cca76cad594cdda8c4131b0990b93d\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, there\u2019s significant investment in public transport in this GPS. There\u2019s over $4.4 billion going into public transport services and public transport infrastructure. We\u2019ve got a range of major public transport projects that we\u2019re going to invest in: completing the City Rail Link, for instance: a project started under the last National Government\u2014we\u2019re going to complete it during this term of Government; the Eastern Busway, which we\u2019re going to ensure the regional fuel tax money continues to invest in; we electrified the Auckland rail network. This is a Government which backs public transport, and this GPS continues to support public transport in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242d5780c07c54b3fba550efbd8772551\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: Does his draft GPS provide lower or higher targets for funding for public transport services and infrastructure than the previous Government\u2019s draft GPS?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229afd58d163104b8f97d23bc4066ba398\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: In terms of the draft GPS, if we\u2019re comparing it to the last Government\u2019s draft GPS in 2023, this is a much better document because what it will do is it will focus on value for money from our public transport sector. Now, the actual targets are slightly lower but we will get better outcomes because we\u2019ll be focusing on making sure our public transport services are operating reliably.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fda215deea74e419bc4ca4d6cc44d5b\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: Under this draft GPS, can local councils put in bus lanes on local roads as part of an upgrade or regular maintenance and renewal of a local road?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022895af8b70dbf4820b10cc48f8dd20312\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as the member will know as a former Associate Minister of Transport, following the draft GPS, councils will be putting forward their regional land transport programmes. That will then feed into the national land transport programme (NLTP), which will be outlined later this year, which will clarify those issues. I encourage the councils around the country to read the document and put forward their regional land transport plans, which feed into the NLTP.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea57ef72c0e04a418fb64d929739d360\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: Is he denying that, in the draft GPS, there is a specific provision that says local road funding, maintenance, and renewal cannot be used for multimodal improvements, and that includes bus lanes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd205fd1a72349a1be924fded3c8e481\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, when it comes to maintenance and renewal funding, we are focusing that on exactly what it says it will do: about fixing potholes and renewing our roads. That\u2019s why we are ring-fencing the pothole prevention funds to make sure we are actually achieving the long-term rates of renewal needed on our roads. The last Government left the current state of our roads in a declining state. This GPS is about actually improving the quality of our roads so people can get around where they need to go, quickly and safely. In relation to the member\u2019s specific question, the local roading improvement activity class is an activity class available to councils to invest in their local roading infrastructure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbf441a8ff4c4d1992cc0c4a8d27ab0d\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: How can people in New Zealand expect to have frequent, reliable bus and train services to give them an alternative to driving a car when he is cutting funding for public transport and making it harder for local councils to make public transport reliable and on time? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022663513608a86417ca57900409432cfb9\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that side of the House thinks throwing more money is the solution to every single problem. Well, they had six years and they spent $228\u00A0million on \u201CAuckland Light Fail\u201D. Aucklanders didn\u2019t get anything, but taxpayers spent hundreds of millions of dollars.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225a7fed87bed49fb835813bd62388f10\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb51077aa7064da18a39b773ffb077ca\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: On this side of the House, we\u2019re about delivery and delivering the infrastructure, public transport infrastructure, and services needed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225580e6d4b5094ac6a3278523025d23ab\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, I just ask you to reflect on the Minister\u2019s answers because I have asked quite specific questions and each time\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022540eaef7d9214a1d804b44b09b636ae7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah. This is the sort of thing that is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad2f7539d88249cca82ffbc65250843a\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014this is deflected by attacking the previous Government, which I was not part of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239f42b0fa696474d9d48472fd46720db\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, this is the sort of point of order that\u2019s winding people up a bit. The Minister had not finished an answer, and I think, while you may not be satisfied with the direction of his answer, I would like to hear it before any judgment is made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e520a32ee7141e5b91fec967bd77a5e\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Mr Speaker, on this side of the House, it\u2019s not just about how much money is thrown at a problem; it\u2019s actually about making sure we get the outcomes that New Zealanders expect. And that\u2019s why we\u2019re proud of the record: when we started the City Rail Link, we\u2019re going to complete it. That side of the House spent hundreds of millions of dollars on \u201CAuckland Light Fail\u201D and didn\u2019t actually get anything started\u2014not 1 metre of track delivered. We\u2019re focused on getting the outcomes New Zealanders need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f2c74bb89324d67a38df19e368c179d\u0022\u003EHelen White\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. The Minister has now had a long period of time where he has not addressed the question, and in fact it is quite obvious that he is attacking the previous Government and not answering the question. If it is possible for him to simply sandwich his answer with one end of it\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c75595908584224afab015d254fd18e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: When a point of order is being taken, regardless of what the rest of the House might think of it, I want to hear it in silence. Start again, and make it a point of\u00A0order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273d6dc8f4c864db78ff4995cd1a82205\u0022\u003EHelen White\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, my concern is that the question is not actually being answered and there is a long period of time where the answer is irrelevant and is out of order, where the Speaker is not intervening. So, in fact, crime is paying, sir.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a41b5bc8ce043769df1c1482fd9e10c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, those are your opinions; they are not mine. He very clearly said that this Government sees outcomes as more important than money spent. In other words, getting value for the dollar. It\u2019s not for me to explain that. That\u2019s how I heard it; that\u2019s how I judge it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240c16ec4597540e2874059b194b903a9\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just ask for some clarification?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f0ae2fbafbf473b8dddd32f9b78dd44\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Clarification? It had better be a clarification, because that was not\u2014with all due respect\u2014a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227374b06e6b6644938a401b3e103dfb51\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister has repeatedly referred, using a pejorative term, to the previous Labour Government\u2019s project and I just wonder if the Speaker could reflect on whether that is part of answering the question in good faith, to refer to a project in a pejorative way without\u2014he\u2019s calling it \u201CAuckland Light Fail\u201D, so it just doesn\u2019t even seem like that\u2019s a good-faith answer from a Minister, to be honest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231cad60801f44de48f0f6e12dc875174\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry, I think the member should really stop there. The member was asking about why funding had been cut. What the Minister suggested is that past funding perhaps hadn\u2019t been as well used as it could be. I don\u2019t think that\u2019s unreasonable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220eca63ab379745efa1314f14e53c4771\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has the Minister seen, if any, in relation to advocacy by the former member of Parliament for Mt Albert\u2014and, indeed, the current member of Parliament for Mt Albert\u2014about Auckland light rail, and how did that project stack up against that advocacy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c88ae21b14574a23b6f18364eea499eb\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Simeon Brown\u2014as long as he can do it within the bounds of ministerial responsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd95e9131bb34795bcf03ba479af64df\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I have seen reports of a former member for Mt Albert advocating for the Auckland light rail project prior to the 2017 election, saying it would be completed by 2021. Despite six years in Government, nothing happened.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b1ad52609bc486d9663fe66d1ee3b5f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s interesting but not particularly helpful to the order of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221099b2dd43074bdf94f7f081e34a6258\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Agriculture\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022 data-id=\u0022f62c58281b3c4826b2227a874fa13858\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f62c58281b3c4826b2227a874fa13858\u0022\u003EJAMIE ARBUCKLE (NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Agriculture: What update, if any, can he provide on the coalition Government\u2019s commitment to wool?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022 data-id=\u002255e6ad8233e845209676786725a8d13d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002255e6ad8233e845209676786725a8d13d\u0022\u003EHon MARK PATTERSON (Associate Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E Let me be very clear: this Government is committed to bringing back New Zealand wool. New Zealand was quite literally built off the sheep\u2019s back. New Zealand is still a world leader in quality wool. We\u2019re the largest exporter of strong wool, accounting for 20 percent of strong wool traded globally. However, the value of New Zealand wool exports has shrunk from $750\u00A0million in 2004 to an estimated $390 million in 2024\u2014a dire situation where it literally costs more to shear a sheep than the income received. We acknowledge the need for revival for both the prosperity of our rural communities and our farmers and to achieve the wider Government objective of doubling the value of our exports.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca0d27d99c7b4f1d952fcaacc64517bf\u0022\u003EJamie Arbuckle\u003C/span\u003E: What policies has the Government committed to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022258788a23e0941c281c10e7459302516\u0022\u003EHon MARK PATTERSON\u003C/span\u003E: As part of the New Zealand First - National coalition agreement, we have committed that we will back our farmers, our primary sector, and regional New Zealand. We will direct Government agencies to preference the use of woollen fibres over artificial fibres in Government buildings. Where practical and appropriate, we\u2019ll back the sustainable, natural product. No longer will rural schools be forced against their will to put in synthetic carpets. This initiative has garnered widespread support, notably Greg Smith, CEO of Bremworth carpets, who says\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201CThis has the potential to be one of the most significant changes in the wool industry since synthetic fibres were introduced two decades ago.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a3c4ce50ebd4c49b36733a04f5449bf\u0022\u003EJamie Arbuckle\u003C/span\u003E: What other incentives can the wool industry look forward to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022287089394ec84e38bdb60c264f168bc5\u0022\u003EHon MARK PATTERSON\u003C/span\u003E: Other initiatives that the wool industry can look forward to is that we are absolutely committed to working with farmers at the farm gate in their rural communities, not, like the last Government, from Wellington ivory towers\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022617bf6b58f3e49b39b513c28fbd2eaf2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, that\u2019s not\u2014no, no, talk about your Government and your programme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275a44a1509634109acead25ca214242f\u0022\u003EHon MARK PATTERSON\u003C/span\u003E: Not from Wellington ivory towers. The Minister of Agriculture has announced a woolshed tour, commencing in April, where we\u2019ll be engaging with farmers from Northland to Southland to outline the opportunities and to seek their feedback. I\u2019ve been travelling across New Zealand engaging with industry, and I\u2019m incredibly excited at some of the innovation that\u2019s going on within the manufacturing sector. I\u2019m aware that, to date, farmers have not been well informed. Since the disestablishment of the Wool Board, the sector has lacked cohesive leadership. A national roadshow will be occurring across the next three months that will help to shape our thinking of how we revitalise this critical rural industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c6540f5e21294e5a85f83fe7a833a744\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Media and Communications\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u0022977366f6dcf740ad8cd5c2b3fcbb0986\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022977366f6dcf740ad8cd5c2b3fcbb0986\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Media and Communications: Does she stand by all her statements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc51b6600d8346fc9cda6d277d60e965\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc51b6600d8346fc9cda6d277d60e965\u0022\u003EHon MELISSA LEE (Minister for Media and Communications):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d61d688a63a407d843b6e93d4010927\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Why does she refuse to back the Fair Digital News Bargaining Bill, a bill that is supported by the whole broadcasting industry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a0a89284f1744ffa82013a3b5de80ab\u0022\u003EHon MELISSA LEE\u003C/span\u003E: The Fair Digital News Bargaining Bill is currently being considered by the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee. I said in Parliament last week I\u2019m waiting for the select committee to report back. The Government will consider these latest developments in terms of the wider media landscape. It is inappropriate for the Minister to intervene or interfere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1e6f6467fb94af390b954c3b4f2e57e\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the Minister refuse to take a position when the advice from her own officials suggests that the media is under pressure, revenue is declining, and, without intervention, the Government will be under pressure to fund public news content?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfcd96e422aa45d8b338a6df89a41e5c\u0022\u003EHon MELISSA LEE\u003C/span\u003E: I could ask that member the same question. In relation to the Warner Bros. Discovery announcement last week that came as a bit of a shock, the industry is actually facing difficult issues. However, I am very passionate about supporting a thriving media sector in New Zealand, and I have been talking to my Cabinet\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003Ecolleagues and I will be taking a paper to Cabinet in coming weeks. The honourable member\u2019s Government had six years to solve these problems\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257786f94646a4f71995670bf546d827d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s enough. No\u2014that\u2019s fine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231ef46708a364407881cc3752dd783fe\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, that\u2019s good that the Minister is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f911e7fcfd945b4b4625cfadcb6cbe2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Willie Jackson will start again\u2014without the extra comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222aedc82985a94c59a7f31338ada21654\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Apologies. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Can I ask the Minister, given\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b65ecf0ab5442acb1c704a5e5cedd9f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No\u2014\u201Cgiven\u201D is not a word. Try a question word.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9e5171bca374bf68cf357837eb25b5b\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Yep. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbedda84e19d4f9097eb584d80651ed9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s all right. We\u2019ll get there in the end.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225129f6039d174fcea522f0c08117b218\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you\u2014thanks very much. Can I ask the Minister: what are her proposals to support the media sector, to support Newshub; is there a strategy, is there anything, given every proposal the previous Government put up, she opposed, including the Fair Digital News Bargaining Bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269e9b5d8ca354ac29e907cda1d4f818a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, how on earth can that question be answered without some political content? I just warn you that your question creates a degree of lenience on my listening to the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d77e9240a1334b878110982638f7df1b\u0022\u003EHon MELISSA LEE\u003C/span\u003E: As the member knows and I have just answered, I am passionate about supporting a thriving media sector. The honourable member, actually, and his Government had six years to solve the problem, including passing the Fair Digital News Bargaining Bill that the member says the whole of media supports. He could have passed it. He failed to do it. It is still at select committee. I will have to wait for that to come back. Having said that, the previous Government wasted $20 million on the failed merger of TVNZ and RNZ, which achieved fat zero.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a25eedac32eb4cfe99a78751888c632a\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Why, at some of the darkest times in New Zealand media history, has this Minister disappeared from the media, refusing to be interviewed by National Radio, refusing to be interviewed by the Television New Zealand Breakfast show, refusing to be interviewed by the AM Show\u2014why has this Minister disappeared from the national media? Why hasn\u2019t she\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229781b9d60d884a9ebb70747bc98c5f5f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Good\u2014that was a question. That was a question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002218f9e3ea-81c5-4414-af48-d6bb843a9227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ab2dc2b037a46c78487bf3693ec8c0a\u0022\u003EHon MELISSA LEE\u003C/span\u003E: Obviously, that honourable member isn\u2019t reading the news or watching the news or reading The Spinoff. I have been available, doing interviews, and I have made public comments and answered questions when I head through the House before question time and also on the way to caucus, like every other Minister is available for media. However, I have also received questions or requests for interviews in relation to the Fair Digital News Bargaining Bill, and I felt that it was inappropriate for me to intervene, and I will wait until that is reported back to the House from the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002266f7c4fadfa84abd973e6a7495b593f3\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Transport\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022 data-id=\u0022a904f44318f445ab8ffc3e452806db19\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a904f44318f445ab8ffc3e452806db19\u0022\u003EDr CARLOS CHEUNG (National\u2014Mt Roskill)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: What recent announcements has he made about transport investment in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022c536f1775f5049bc9f5c32d0e9e08365\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c536f1775f5049bc9f5c32d0e9e08365\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Yesterday the Prime Minister and I released the draft Government policy statement (GPS) on land transport, announcing that we\u2019re delivering on our campaign and coalition commitments to reintroduce the successful roads of national significance programme with 15 projects across the country to enable people and freight to move around quickly and safely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc24026e53004aad841730b231461567\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: What does the Government policy statement mean for Northlanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223807066fffac4815b8ab874989ed54dd\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: The draft GPS brings great news for the people of Northland, who have been faced with cancelled projects and a growing infrastructure deficit. Our coalition Government prioritises a range of priority roads of national significance, including an alternative to the Brynderwyns as part of our coalition agreement with New Zealand First, the Whang\u0101rei to Port Marsden Highway, and Warkworth to Wellsford.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3072be6f46c4e23bc132a33596633e9\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: What does the Government policy statement mean for the people of the Bay of Plenty?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b81038f301d482ab5acc373f953846d\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: The roads of national significance are some of New Zealand\u2019s most essential State highway corridors. They boost productivity and improve safety. We\u2019ve listed two significant priorities in the Bay of Plenty, including Tauriko West State Highway 29 and Takitimu Northern Link stage 2, which was scaled back and delayed by the prior Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022718a9844cbc14c048a8c718e1e270224\u0022\u003EKatie Nimon\u003C/span\u003E: What does the Government policy statement mean for the people of\u00A0Napier?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e9b7e27f98243fd8165310dd9279473\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: The Government has also listed the Hawke\u2019s Bay Expressway as another road of national significance, increasing resilience in the Hawke\u2019s Bay. This critical priority was especially highlighted during the recent cyclone, where the two-lane road was one of the only roads available for people to use. Four-laning it will make a huge difference for the people of the Hawke\u2019s Bay.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ff4ae7b5cb3437e96ea1a2e0260d3d6\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: What does this announcement mean for the good people of Wellington and the Hutt Valley?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afd586ca6fe34c07bbb00266fe89bef7\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Great news for the good people of Wellington and the Hutt Valley. After years of delay, we are prioritising the second Mount Vic tunnel, and, as the member will be very pleased, P\u0113tone to Grenada is on track.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a71d2f737cdc48eeba5a35331819bb32\u0022\u003EJames Meager\u003C/span\u003E: What does the Government policy statement mean for Cantabrians?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222881b668ece9417d8ba72d7aa4a86174\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Great news for Cantabrians: we\u2019ve listed the Woodend bypass. I acknowledge Mr Doocey, the local member of Parliament, who\u2019s advocated for that road, targeting one of the most dangerous stretches of road in New Zealand. We\u2019ve also prioritised the second Ashburton bridge as a road of regional significance. While the previous Government talked a big game about transport, we\u2019re actually going to get on and deliver.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002250a7567918084624897a3012b1aaebf8\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014RMA Reform\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022 data-id=\u00228cc9f9e260ba4bc1b9a36f8cc4c4c0db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228cc9f9e260ba4bc1b9a36f8cc4c4c0db\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister responsible for RMA Reform: Does he agree with the statement made by the President of the Resource Management Law Association, who said about the Government\u2019s proposed approach to fast-track consenting that \u201CThere are likely to be high risks of judicial review if a decision-making process lacks transparency and results in poor environmental outcomes\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u002243be2f74c685493bbc420c731250ef5d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243be2f74c685493bbc420c731250ef5d\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform):\u003C/span\u003E Broadly, yes. But the statement presupposes that the decision-making process will lack transparency, when our intention is that it be very transparent, and also presupposes that it will result in poor environmental outcomes, when our intention is that it result in good environmental outcomes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c6aa66d5ac548da894642d95a5e950f\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: What advice has he requested or received on any potential litigation risk from the proposed settings, including judicial review risk in Waitangi Tribunal claims?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224ddcf3b4bcb45c58364fe040ee5b1a6\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, legal advice that Ministers receive is, as the member knows, privileged.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ebaf1d5f9cd4550b01fca8f3eed9b85\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: How does he justify the proposal to have ministerial decision-making over complex environmental matters rather than having final decisions sitting with independent hearing panels who are able to robustly consider all the evidence?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226638d3b4d9304b04a8f47e18b47e7025\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: The bill hasn\u2019t been presented to Parliament yet. As the member will well know, it\u2019s part of the Government\u2019s 100-day plan of action, and I think we\u2019re up to day 97, so the member does not have long to wait.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220508f0e8a0b4b1a8fc9c19185eb0ee6\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Did that address the question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bcb920966b04191a915e089d6a4e235\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think in so much as it can. He said the bill is not introduced to Parliament yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022256d7caceb654fad8e59407957ebb1e3\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Will the proposed new legislation override the environmental protections contained in many of New Zealand\u2019s key pieces of environmental legislation, including the Conservation Act, the Wildlife Act, the Reserves Act, and the exclusive economic zone Act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022859b81fa28334280b116f6e35f859cc1\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: The fast-tracked consenting regime will allow Ministers to refer projects to panels to make conditions upon which those projects will take place, in accordance with the variety of statutes that the member has mentioned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022260b220c25234dd390edb0e91827092a\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Will the approximately 100 projects included in the listed pathway include projects for which consents have previously been declined or referred for reconsideration due to environmental risk, including the Te K\u016Bh\u0101 coal mine and the Trans-Tasman Resources seabed mining project?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9a0a2889ede44638cea3b15c02430d7\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, maybe. The member will just have to wait until he sees\u00A0the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226292d6f2a5f4471b9ca8345c81af4a2d\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Corrections\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022 data-id=\u00221165cdd745594f9db7b552a5eb92c649\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221165cdd745594f9db7b552a5eb92c649\u0022\u003EMIKE BUTTERICK (National\u2014Wairarapa)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Corrections: What recent announcements has he made about access to rehabilitation programmes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u00228ff074412cc7453c8b5ace6cc70d1cef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ff074412cc7453c8b5ace6cc70d1cef\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E On Sunday, I announced that the coalition Government has taken the first steps to ensure prisoners on remand can access the rehabilitation and reintegration support they need to turn their lives around. As part of the 100-day plan, we\u2019re taking steps to make it explicit in the Corrections Act 2004 that prisoners who are on remand and convicted of a crime will be provided with the rehabilitation that helps address the causes of their offending.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f8ea8d38f4b4d20b49542de4694b71b\u0022\u003EMike Butterick\u003C/span\u003E: How many more people are there on remand now than there were 10\u00A0years ago?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227083382a15a84e9896814223fb071db0\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: The number of people on remand has increased by 146\u00A0percent over the last 10 years, and remand now represents almost 45 percent of the entire prison population. This announcement will ensure that these people are receiving access to vital rehabilitation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a1bc1b35e3f43aba15e94015041fb57\u0022\u003EMike Butterick\u003C/span\u003E: Who will benefit from these changes and how many prisoners are likely to benefit?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287abc724ba144a1383a1d20c91fc5a9a\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Remand-convicted prisoners will benefit from the provision of offence-based rehabilitation, including rehabilitation related to violent and sexual offending. The advice that I\u2019ve received indicates that at any one time, nearly 1,400\u00A0prisoners may benefit from this rehabilitation. The biggest benefit, though, will be for the public in that more violent offenders will be receiving rehabilitation while inside, with an aim to improve public safety.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225665380b-62fd-4d75-85e0-0ed801a402e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be3e542eedaf46c5909c8a9c9c8ea282\u0022\u003EMike Butterick\u003C/span\u003E: What other changes will the Government make to strengthen rehab\u00A0access?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a9d102897f54b2b8019e6fb40b4b40c\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: As part of the Amendment Paper which I\u2019ve sent to the Justice Committee for consideration alongside the Corrections Amendment Bill, the proposed amendment sets out a clear expectation that remand-accused prisoners will be provided with reintegration and other non - offence-focused support while in prison. This includes alcohol and drug treatment, as well as educational or behavioural skills programmes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1063fd87aec461788c2b583cf7fd3f6\u0022\u003EDr Tracey McLellan\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister confident that Corrections is currently resourced to meet its existing obligations to provide rehabilitative services, as set out in the sentenced prisoners management plan, as provided in section 51 of the Corrections Act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9267b80317c4c578e96bc17c121b2ba\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s well known that Corrections, for the last six years, has suffered with a lack of front-line corrections officers, who, by the way, do an outstanding job in keeping the public safe. But the good news is that Corrections has received 2,108 applications since the new recruitment ad started on 4 February 2024 to 21 February 2024. This is a huge increase\u2014almost four times\u2014compared with the 550\u00A0applications when the previous Government campaigned in February 2023. Two weeks ago, 156 new staff began their training as corrections officers\u2014I believe the largest cohort that has been seen in recent years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de72bbd7c77543caa5f483e1cef12be3\u0022\u003EDr Tracey McLellan\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. That was all very interesting, but the question clearly said about funding\u2014is he confident that it is funded to provide all of these services? It\u2019s not about personnel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c07d60ab771f4f6989f0c50e1f303dca\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think you\u2019ll find it started with the word \u201Cyes\u201D. Is that correct? Well, I misunderstood. Do you want to add more?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e9ebe4db0c94ad9b2a7069faecb0d38\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022623a4382dc6448f4a38544283dee495d\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Education (Partnership Schools)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022e832d73decfe4e479eaec2087da81d39\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e832d73decfe4e479eaec2087da81d39\u0022\u003EHon JAN TINETTI (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Education (Partnership Schools): Does he stand by his statement that the previous Government had committed to the school lunches spending programme \u201Cwithout commissioning any robust empirical study to evaluate its effectiveness\u201D; if so, how does he reconcile this with the New Zealand Healthy School Lunches pilot/Ka Ora, Ka Ako interim evaluation on the Ministry of Education website?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022a01839b11080480b94966452908139a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a01839b11080480b94966452908139a7\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Associate Minister of Education (Partnership Schools)):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I certainly stand by that statement, and I can very easily reconcile it with this interim evaluation, which itself says a larger group of schools is needed to assess whether there has been any improvement in attendance patterns over the longer term. So I think, when a study itself says that it couldn\u2019t reach the conclusion asked, that is almost by definition not robust.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ae73a0e35e44ce2915dc62464de9ee2\u0022\u003EHon Jan Tinetti\u003C/span\u003E: Does he, then, acknowledge the other reports\u2014the many other reports\u2014that have been done on the Ka Ora, Ka Ako programme have increased the numbers of schools, have had the voices of 10,694 secondary learners brought into the research, and the final report\u2014or the most recent report\u2014which shows that, thus, in specific schools and kura, we found the programme contributed to increased attendance?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5d15f62c16e4d9ea0131f877aff95b6\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: There have been five studies in total commissioned by the Ministry of Education. None of them has done a robust, statistically significant comparison that has been able to find that the programme has increased attendance at school\u2014those are the basic facts. I know that the former Minister probably thinks that she commissioned reports that are good enough for the taxpayer, but this Government is in favour of actually doing robust analysis when we go out and spend their money. But, unfortunately, I read again from the Treasury: \u201CHowever, the evaluations have found no impact on attendance, and \u0101konga M\u0101ori, who make up around 48% of students receiving the programme, have not benefited on most metrics, such as school functioning \u2026 health, and mental wellbeing\u201D. Unfortunately, the former Minister went out and spent nearly 350\u00A0million bucks, and she can\u2019t say whether it worked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a802a877ff6e42468144240cb975f6df\u0022\u003EHon Jan Tinetti\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement on Checkpoint: \u201CThe Treasury got on to that and also pointed out that they were wasting around 25 percent of the food that they had.\u201D; and is he aware that it was never 25 percent, and that the Ministry of Education told the Education and Workforce Committee that food wastage had halved from 12\u00A0percent in the beginning to 6 percent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb7efbca47d74c808e13be3eff1234ae\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Unfortunately, there\u2019s a wide range of ways that the food is being wasted. For example, an email received just today from a high school says, \u201CWe have a volunteer group in town who picks up all unopened lunch packs to distribute amongst the elderly and needy in town. The quality of lunches has dropped off to such an extent that the elderly people no longer want them. A lot of food is being wasted\u2014money as well.\u201D Unfortunately, in many places, 25 percent wastage would be an improvement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a28b4cc2c9b647338add4699812dcbc6\u0022\u003EHon Jan Tinetti\u003C/span\u003E: Does he stand by his statement, also on Checkpoint, that \u201CCuts of 30 to 50 percent are in the ballpark.\u201D; and, if so, what does he say to Christopher Luxon, who said in the election campaign, \u201CWe are supporters of the programme and it will continue to improve each and every year under our National Government\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bd285aed24b46f78a14d37d618ac831\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I absolutely stand by my statement and what I\u2019d say to Christopher Luxon\u2014and the Prime Minister, for that matter\u2014is that we are going to keep improving it: first of all, by wasting less money, and, second of all, by making sure that it\u2019s going to the students most in need in a way that we can demonstrate a difference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231d22f945f27402cae2d7be5944ae7ef\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re cutting it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258681ff633c4471ab24e19810eeb306c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: And I just heard Megan Woods say, \u201CYou\u2019re cutting it.\u201D, and that\u2019s why she didn\u2019t get the finance job, because, you see, when we say we\u2019re cutting it, we mean we\u2019re going to spend less money to get more results. That\u2019s what this Government needs to do\u2014that\u2019s what anyone in finance needs to do\u2014and that\u2019s why Megan Woods didn\u2019t get the job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dea54fc549b14d229dd0dc81358e6589\u0022\u003EHon Jan Tinetti\u003C/span\u003E: Why does he think\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a17ccd38d10a458b8ed03940f6827eec\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Wait a minute\u2014OK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229eef65cd-ce82-441c-af1b-954ea0782a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d4783b744554d3898c096073fb6458b\u0022\u003EHon Jan Tinetti\u003C/span\u003E: Why does he think it is appropriate to prioritise tax breaks for landlords and property speculators above providing healthy and nutritious lunches to children in our poorest community?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c7a736cf66f44019d529cedf997381f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I actually don\u2019t have responsibility, as Associate Minister of Education, for the Budget process. But I\u2019m a helpful sort of a guy, so let me just lean into this one for the member\u2019s benefit. The Government is not making such a decision\u2014the Government is having to make the most it possibly can in a range of policy areas because, after six years of this lot doing less and less with more and more taxpayers\u2019 money, this Government now has to do more and more with less taxpayers\u2019 money and try and pay down the debt besides. If only that Government had been a bit more fiscally responsible, this Government would be having an easier time. Thankfully, we\u2019re up to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c976f09d812841f2a289b4d9a58b2801\u0022\u003EHon Nicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that the outgoing Government provided precisely zero dollars in funding for the next financial year for the school lunch programme, an enormous fiscal cliff; and can he also advise whether he has considered an approach to that problem, like that suggested by the member Tinetti, that he simply appropriate it because New Zealand doesn\u2019t have a debt problem, as she told Mike Hosking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6daba7319bc49e591d8e8c10f8b431d\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I can\u2014[Interruption] Yes, I can confirm\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3cbf0489db54f43a2d6290b61c629b5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just wait.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b5410dd62554e0bad4af2fb7fc91ca9\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I can confirm that there is a major fiscal cliff in the funding of pharmaceuticals that this Government must now\u2014oh, wait, sorry, Mr Speaker, that\u2019s my other portfolio. You see, they\u2019re leaving so many fiscal cliffs around that sometimes even I can\u2019t keep up! Back to education: the fiscal cliff around school lunches is such that this Government has to actually find money to continue something that the Opposition said we were trying to cut, and that\u2019s why we\u2019ve got to do it better and smarter in a more targeted way that benefits the kids who really need it, where these guys failed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022692e16a4ab90484a9a6a97625a06df32\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I just want to draw your attention to Speaker\u2019s ruling 205/4, which says, \u201CMinisters should not bring another political party, which has not been involved in the questioning, into an answer.\u201D, as a longstanding rule that you shouldn\u2019t be using patsy questions to attack the Opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022feeaa8e4d49543aea9449b3e1663685d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is true. But the question from the first question, the primary question, strayed quite a way along the track. As I\u2019ve said before, and other Speakers have said before me, when there is a political aspect to a question, that\u2019s where the answers are likely to go and that\u2019s where there is slightly more lenience. But we are not then using the question time to directly attack a previous Government. The Rt Hon Winston Peters\u2014this will be interesting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f81ed1b91784986be1e10a02a72ac62\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Could I ask the Minister, could he, in the interests of education, find a copy of the Andy Williams song \u201CLonely Street\u201D and send a copy to that party over there so they can feel a bit more happy about life?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb74219d331543e5986df88e61afdd6c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I have no responsibility\u2014that would be my good friend and colleague the Hon Paul Goldsmith, the Minister of arts and heritage, who, I am sure, can give him a hand. However, what I will say, as Associate Minister of Education, is that our job is an education system where people feel they can go to school and be equipped to make a difference in their own lives\u2014that\u2019s what makes people happier.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fb8888a0d79a4771ae8bc8b1ba37014a\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022420a741975a548eda53878607d7ab5f3\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022b69316da8e7e4647b0c04c0d29f1a495\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b69316da8e7e4647b0c04c0d29f1a495\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Deputy Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That urgency be accorded the first reading and referral to select committee of the Road User Charges (Light Electric RUC Vehicles) Amendment Bill, the remaining stages of the Legal Services Amendment Bill, the introduction and passing through all stages of the Business Payment Practices Act Repeal Bill, the remaining stages of the Land Transport Management (Repeal of Regional Fuel Tax) Amendment Bill, and the first reading and referral to select committee of the Firearms Prohibition Orders Legislation Amendment Bill. The Government is moving urgency today to progress some of the final pieces of legislation that are part of our 100-day plan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00221e399c8813ac4eb1a383115866fc751d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e399c8813ac4eb1a383115866fc751d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would the member give slightly more reason for the urgency? Could I ask that when members leave the House, they do so without conversations on the way\u00A0through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u002239a74bd8444d48d2ac152fa0d2098fbe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239a74bd8444d48d2ac152fa0d2098fbe\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Deputy Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E These bills are part of completing our 100-day plan and progressing some legislation also to select committee, as a number of these bills are required to be passed by 1 April this year. Hence we are according urgency to them through the House today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022 data-id=\u0022138cc6f1dbb0436f91255036231c5f32\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022138cc6f1dbb0436f91255036231c5f32\u0022\u003EHon GRANT ROBERTSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. Mr Speaker. I thank you for asking the Minister to give a little bit more information. The Speakers\u2019 rulings do require a level of particularity about the individual bills themselves. The statements Mr Brown\u2019s made just simply don\u2019t go anywhere near meeting the Speakers\u2019 rulings requirement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022c4239701b5e14a9ab5e30bb4296b1b02\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c4239701b5e14a9ab5e30bb4296b1b02\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that would be your assessment. I will ask him to add some more to meet that particularity requirement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba8572ed943c4658b5c10b1f5de65c75\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba8572ed943c4658b5c10b1f5de65c75\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Deputy Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. The Road User Charges (Light Electric RUC Vehicles) Amendment Bill is required to be put into legislation by 1 April. This is an issue that wasn\u2019t dealt with by the prior Government, and so we\u2019re having to deal with that at pace. The remaining stages of the Legal Services Amendment Bill\u2014that bill is part of our 100-day plan and is a commitment within our coalition arrangements. The introduction and passing through all stages of the Business Payment Practices Act Repeal Bill: the legislation that is repealing needs to be repealed prior to that Act coming into force. I believe that is in late April. The remaining stages of the Land Transport Management (Repeal of Regional Fuel Tax) Amendment bill: that is part of our 100-day plan. And the first reading and referral to a select committee of the Firearms Prohibition Orders Legislation Amendment Bill is part of our 100-day plan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f7b69aeca795428685466724ec28b752\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That urgency be accorded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002211e6c4c5671f4a6a82e770c422fedbb9\u0022\u003EBusiness Payment Practices Act Repeal Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022545559ed561c49008a0941dd8501ab32\u0022\u003EIntroduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022accbe88230c9486e89946236598fbb68\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022accbe88230c9486e89946236598fbb68\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I understand the Government has the intention of introducing a bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u002295c3290e15054ee5907cc16c7a5fcd8f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002295c3290e15054ee5907cc16c7a5fcd8f\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: Business Payment Practices Act Repeal Bill, introduction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00220d724f11251c41fbb4738b1d44d5e7ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d724f11251c41fbb4738b1d44d5e7ea\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for first reading presently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c76e81b629e3417885cc90e769363fca\u0022\u003ERoad User Charges (Light Electric RUC Vehicles) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a83aa6cd50394097ade52d40f82fa234\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u002287c5560fa25c4a49b5bd3e4068e39403\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002287c5560fa25c4a49b5bd3e4068e39403\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E I move that the Road User Charges (Light Electric RUC Vehicles) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290ea6b1afda8423ba9ef02d9050e7e8c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think you need to present a legislative statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258d86937f88b4a65863dd6e73231eb46\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry. I present a legislative statement on the Road User Charges (Light Electric RUC Vehicles) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcd438fe2e494eb481a844d85ebd8390\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e0fe202604446968771fe3bddfdbaf9\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Road User Charges (Light Electric RUC Vehicles) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Transport and Infrastructure Committee to consider the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f4360d948914663b7910275b1a6164e\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, those are some words we haven\u2019t heard much of!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202d6b7c6ef81488ba6badf3ef6d361a6\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: At the appropriate time, I intend to move the bill be reported to the House by 14 March 2024. The committee have authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting except during oral questions, during any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, and outside the Wellington area, despite Standing Orders 193, 195, and 196. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThis piece of legislation is being brought to the House as a part of the Government\u2019s commitment to ensure that all vehicles that use our roads are paying their fair share and contributing towards the upkeep of our roads. In 2009, the previous National Government exempted electric vehicles (EVs) and plug-in hybrid vehicles from paying road-user charges (RUC), to encourage their uptake. This exemption was always planned to end when electric vehicles hit around 2 percent of the light vehicle fleet. We\u2019ve now passed the 2 percent mark for electric vehicles in the light vehicle fleet and it is only fair that those vehicles now start paying their fair share to contribute towards maintaining our roads and the upkeep of our roads. Transitioning electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids to road-user charges is also the first step as part of the National Party and ACT Party coalition agreements to bring all vehicles into the road-user charges system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThis transition is about fairness and equity, ensuring that all road users are contributing to the upkeep and maintenance of our roads, irrespective of the types of vehicles that they choose to drive. With the increasing uptake of electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids being brought into the road-user charges system, this transition to road-user charges means that these vehicles will now be contributing towards the maintenance of our roading system, like all other road users. This supports the coalition Government\u2019s commitment and priority of building and maintaining our roading network and we\u2019ve also outlined those priorities in the draft Government policy statement on transport which we released yesterday. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThis bill smooths the way for the entry of light vehicles into the road-user charges system when the current exemption expires at the end of March. It brings light electric vehicles into the road-user charges system, as it was going to be a large and complex task for the New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA). To ensure that this integration proceeds smoothly I\u2019m proposing a set of legislative amendments to the Road User Charges Act 2012 and a range of regulations that sit under it: the Land Transport (Road User) Rule 2004 and Land Transport Management Act (Apportionment and Refund of Excise Duty and Excise-Equivalent Duty) Regulations 2004. These amendments will also ensure that all light electric vehicle owners are paying a fair and comparable amount for the use of our roads.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EWhen electric vehicles are brought into the road-user charge system, owners of plug-in hybrids could potentially be taxed twice if we didn\u2019t make this change, and that\u2019s why we\u2019re making sure that there\u2019s also a lower rate for plug-in hybrids than the full RUC rate which will apply to electric vehicles. Whether you drive a plug-in hybrid or are an electric vehicle owner, at the moment you\u2019re currently exempted from paying road-user charges, and this means that there\u2019s a fair transition for those vehicles. So for light electric vehicles, they\u2019ll be paying a cost of $76 per 1,000 kilometres, but there will be a lower rate for plug-in hybrids, acknowledging the fact that they also use petrol or diesel as they travel on our roads. This is to ensure that we compensate for that difference, to ensure that they\u2019re not paying twice as part of the system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThis bill addresses this issue by creating the ability to set a reduced road-user charge rate for plug-in hybrid electric vehicles. A reduced rate, as I said, reflects that they already contribute towards the National Land Transport Fund through fuel taxes on petrol. The Government has decided that the reduced rate should be set at $53 per 1,000 kilometres. The rate offers plug-in hybrid EV owners a 30 percent discount on the standard light vehicle rate of $76 per 1,000 kilometres, to account for the petrol consumption that they use. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe last Government consulted, back in 2022, with the public on a rate for plug-in hybrid EVs. They proposed as part of their consultation a 20 percent reduction of the full rate for EVs. We think it\u2019s fair and equitable to increase that to 30 percent, acknowledging that the 20 percent was based on the average of those vehicles\u2014on what the manufacturers estimate their fuel consumption to be. But when you look at what they actually use, we\u2019ve taken a more conservative approach, and that is why we\u2019ve increased that to a 30 percent reduction based on the light road-user charge rate. Setting the reduced rate at this level may incentivise some plug-in hybrid owners to change the way that they use those vehicles\u2014operate more based on the battery, less based on petrol\u2014and those will be decisions that users of those vehicles will make.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe reason we needed to also put in place this reduced rate was, if we hadn\u2019t, the reality for plug-in hybrid EV owners is that they would have to go and seek a refund from the New Zealand Transport Agency for any petrol excise that they used. So they\u2019d have to pay because they, effectively, use two fuels motoring those cars\u2014they have a plug-in battery which fuels that vehicle and they\u2019re considered an electric vehicle so would be required to pay a road-user charge under the legislation; they also pay for petrol. So if we hadn\u2019t made this change, they would have to pay the full road-user charge and then they would be able to recover their petrol excise by putting a claim in to the New Zealand Transport Agency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThis process of applying for and obtaining a refund would be time consuming, there would be risks in terms of how accurate it would be, and there would be a huge amount of time and additional resource required at the New Zealand Transport Agency by effectively doubling the number of refunds that NZTA would have to process per year. Therefore, the Government believes it is a fairer way to reduce the required RUC rate for those vehicles to 30 percent of the full RUC rate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe bill also exempts very light electric vehicles from road-user charges. Those are vehicles under 1,000 kilograms. There are only a few of these vehicles on the roads. We don\u2019t think that it\u2019s necessary to put a road-user charge on those vehicles but, at the same time, the Government has outlined our intention to move all vehicles to a road-user charge over time. One of the things that this debate has highlighted is the variance in terms of what different types of vehicles pay, based on the type of fuel that they use. If you drive an electric vehicle, a plug-in hybrid, a diesel car, a petrol vehicle, or hybrid, the system is based, currently, on the type of fuel that motors the vehicle rather than how many kilometres that vehicle operates on our roads. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ESo, at the same time as progressing this bill through the House, we acknowledge that there are variances and that we need to move all vehicles to a road-user charge where they are paying the same amount based on the kilometres they travel and the weight of those vehicles rather than the type of fuel that they use. We see this as a temporary measure that we\u2019re bringing in now while we also undertake the significant piece of work necessary in order to move all vehicles to a road-user charge. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThis bill will go to a select committee and whilst I acknowledge it will be a short select committee, I think it is important that the particular issue around whether or not the plug-in hybrid rate has been set at the right rate is examined by that select committee and whether the additional discount over and above what the last Government proposed is the right place for that to sit. So I look forward to seeing what the select committee advises us based on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ETo support the transition, the Government is also giving those owners of light electric vehicles and plug-in hybrid owners a two-month transition period by which they will have to buy their first RUC licence, and that period begins on 1 April 2024. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ESo this is an example of a piece of legislation that we\u2019re bringing to the House due to the fact that the last Government did not deal with this problem. Prior to the election, we said all vehicles should be paying for the use of the roads. The last Government acknowledged it but did not make any preparations for this transition. So here we are in this House putting this legislation to Parliament. We believe it\u2019s a fair way to deal with this challenge but also we believe that there is further reform that is needed to make sure that there is a fair and equitable way for all vehicles to be paying their fair share. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022d125410fb41f4c1da0f2a3167a8d9441\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d125410fb41f4c1da0f2a3167a8d9441\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9080a1e601a4e80b52a0ff50069851e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9080a1e601a4e80b52a0ff50069851e\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s a pleasure to take the first call for the Labour Party on this bill. I thought the Minister was generally doing OK up until the last sort of minute of his contribution, where he decided to take a swing at the former Government. I really feel the need to respond to that because the new Government has had opportunity to place on its legislative agenda this particular bill. It has, effectively, waited for the clock to run down at the expense of members of the public and the community to be able to have an adequate say on the provisions contained within this bill, and so that is rather unfortunate in terms of the use of urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI heard a colleague mention, when the Minister said that this was going to be referred to the Transport and Infrastructure Committee, that \u201CWell, finally we actually have a Government that is prepared to refer something to a select committee.\u201D So I look forward to hearing submissions as part of that particular select committee, albeit for what is a relatively short period of time\u2014and we\u2019ll come back to that in a moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThis is a bill that will seek to make some changes that will align with, effectively, the road-user charge (RUC) exemptions scheme for some vehicles that will come to an end on 31 March\u2014so not too far down the track. It does, as the Minister has indicated, set a set rate, which is a differential rate, for plug-in hybrid vehicles alongside those that might be defined as light electric vehicles (EVs) as well. It\u2019s pleasing to see that the bill in its current form does also provide an exemption for what are very light electric vehicles and the payments that would be, effectively, attached to those in the form of RUCs wouldn\u2019t be applicable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll put the Minister out of his misery and say that we are prepared, on this side of the House, to support this through to select committee\u2014albeit a very, very short process indeed. The concern that I have with the truncated select committee process is that I\u2019ve already\u2014and I\u2019m sure members around the House will have\u2014received some feedback from constituents around this. The Minister has talked about the consultation that was undertaken by the previous Government. What we have in front of us is a copy of the departmental disclosure statement, which identifies at 3.6 that there was that consultation; that there were a range of matters, actually, that stakeholders and others were consulted on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EBut it also identifies that the submissions on this bill were rather mixed. I think that\u2019s even more of a reason as to why a select committee process should allow for the full range of individuals and collectives to submit in and feed in to that process. I get the point, Minister, in that the date that you\u2019re aiming for here is 1 April. While that might lead to some sense of urgency, I do think it is unfortunate that the Transport and Infrastructure Committee, if the House does agree to a truncated select committee process, will have to turn its mind to that rather quickly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EBecause I have one of my constituents who said not actually just\u2014look, he has no problem, actually, with moving to a RUC approach for his vehicle, but he has some concerns about the weight variance and perhaps there should be a different rate when it comes to those that weigh less than one tonne. The threshold in this bill is setting it at 3\u00BD\u00A0tonnes. Sure, that will mean quite a quite a lot to many people, but when we\u2019re looking at incentivising use of EVs and plug-in EVs around urban areas and the like\u2014I think of Palmerston North\u2014actually, it\u2019s perfectly suitable for someone to use a motor vehicle that weighs much less than the 3\u00BD-tonne threshold that\u2019s there. So it\u2019s unfortunate that members of the community won\u2019t be able to necessarily easily feed into this process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll end my contribution by just touching on the fact that what would be helpful is an undertaking from the Government that there is going to be some incentivisation in terms of the uptake for electric vehicles. Yes, we\u2019ve heard from the Minister about the 2 percent of fleet being the particular target, or threshold, and that that has been achieved. But I really do start to question the motives of the Government when they, effectively, remove the Clean Car Discount, when they effectively remove other rebates, when they are not seeming to incentivise the uptake. Just because it\u2019s 2 percent doesn\u2019t mean that we should stop there and not go any further\u2014far from it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ESo, on this side of the House, we will support this through to the next stage, which will be a truncated select committee process, for which that is rather unfortunate. But I\u2019m sure we\u2019ll have a few more things to say about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u0022748c545daa164a9d8c69f925c53d6941\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022748c545daa164a9d8c69f925c53d6941\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. I heard the Minister say in his speech that the previous Government had done no work on this, and I have to say that is patently untrue because, obviously, they\u2019d all gone out and done some consultation on it, firstly. Secondly, I think it\u2019s really important for this House to consider the outcome of bringing in this particular legislation at this time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ENow, obviously, it was a previous National Government who removed road-user charges for electric vehicles (EVs) as a kind of incentive tool. It didn\u2019t really have the desired effect; our uptake of electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids was very, very low. Back in the day when Simon Bridges was the transport Minister who brought in that incentive at the time, I, as transport spokesperson for the Greens, brought up the fact that Treasury had given advice that if you are to provide a financial incentive to increase the number of electric and low-emissions vehicles coming into the country that it would make more sense for that incentive to be at the point of purchase or registration of the vehicle. Which is why, later on, we developed the policy\u2014alongside best practice international evidence about what works\u2014of the Clean Car Discount and Clean Car Standard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EAnd the reasons for this are really kind of clear and obvious, right? Once people have the sunk cost of the car, they have an incentive to use it as much as possible. And what really makes the difference is the upfront purchase price of the car. So if we can provide a rebate at the point of purchase, then that has a much bigger impact not only on what consumers choose but on what is on the market here in New Zealand. We saw a huge transformation when the Clean Car Discount was brought in, massive increase in import registrations and use of pure electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids, and that has a positive consequence for our overall emissions as a country and the amount of oil we rely on to\u00A0get around.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ENow, obviously, this Government had campaigned on ending that policy. They don\u2019t, and still do not have\u2014they did not at the time have an alternative policy to support the increase of electric vehicles into the country, and on top of that, now they\u2019re bringing in road-user charges for electric vehicles. Now, the Minister\u2019s statement claimed this was fair and balanced and people paying their fair share, yet in answers to written questions to me he makes it very clear that what is proposed in this bill is not electric vehicles paying their fair share, it\u2019s electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids paying significantly more\u2014more than double a comparable car\u2014for the use of the roads.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo in answers to written questions\u2014and members opposite can look up the New\u00A0Zealand Herald article reporting on this which links to the answers to the questions\u2014I asked: if you were driving a pure electric vehicle on a return trip between Wellington and Auckland, how much would they pay in road-user charges under this proposal? It\u2019s $98.80. How much would a plug-in hybrid Prius pay? So that\u2019s a plug-in electric vehicle, one that also uses fossil fuels when the electric battery runs out. That vehicle on the same exact trip would pay $94.78. The proportion of road-user charges would be $72.80, and $21.98 in petrol tax. So they\u2019re paying both petrol tax and road-user charges because they\u2019d be using petrol as well as paying the road-user charges.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo we have a pure EV and a plug-in hybrid Prius paying $98.80 for a trip, $94.78\u2014nearly $100\u2014and a conventional fossil fuel Prius would pay, in fuel excise duty, $42.92 for the exact same trip. So that is less than half the price. So there\u2019s clearly problems with the current road-user charges categories that they don\u2019t take into account that light vehicles\u2014light diesel vehicles and light pure electric hybrid vehicles\u2014should be paying the same as a comparable petrol car and yet they\u2019ll be paying more than twice that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo the combination of this Government\u2019s policies and actions\u2014to get rid of the Clean Car Discount, to probably water down the Clean Car Standard, they\u2019ve indicated they will do that, and to now overcharge electric vehicles and plug-in hybrid vehicles\u2014will be that we will get fewer low-emissions and zero-emissions vehicles into the country\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022f8850ae6d3284c2b82d15050137d83b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f8850ae6d3284c2b82d15050137d83b9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022 data-id=\u0022cfa84f24bd1e4b828626da4441cc079c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cfa84f24bd1e4b828626da4441cc079c\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. This was a well-signalled policy. As the previous speaker, Julie Anne Genter, has just said, this was signalled by the previous Minister of Transport Simon Bridges, when he was in that role, that at 2\u00A0percent of the fleet this exemption would be removed, and that time has come. It is fair that everybody pays their fair share, including a reduced rate for plug-in hybrid electric vehicles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EA two-month transition is also a good time for people to get prepped for this. As someone who\u2019s a diesel vehicle driver myself, I understand how streamlined the process is when you\u2019re actually purchasing road-user charges, so I do not believe this will be a huge imposition on people who have previously not needed to deal with this because of the type of vehicle that they drive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EI look forward to hearing more submissions at the select committee about this and finding ways that people in the public think we can improve the income stream to pay for our roads, because there is no free lunch, and particularly when it comes to roading, which has been underfunded by no small amount in the last six years\u2014but I am glad to hear that Labour is supporting this bill. The coalition agreement also provides an investigation mechanism into electric road-user charging, and when that is worked through, I look forward to hearing about that, but for the time being I support this bill. Thank you, Mr\u00A0Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022 data-id=\u0022d343bdb7d0374d48a290a19a575372df\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d343bdb7d0374d48a290a19a575372df\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I was actually going to start with exactly the same words that my colleague Cameron Luxton has, which is to say that this has been well signalled, it\u2019s been well expected, and we\u2019ve heard from the Labour Party member Tangi Utikere as well that in fact they were working on exactly this thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EWhy has it been so well signalled? Well, because\u2014and we actually have to do something here\u2014the existing rebate arrangement expires on 31 March. So if you actually want to continue that in some way, as seems to be the suggestion that the member from the Green Party, the Hon Julie Anne Genter has said, you\u2019d actually need to pass some form of legislation anyway. So to me, this is very much about something that has been anticipated for some considerable period of time. It is about fairness; this is about contribution. We\u2019ve known that there was an arrangement for electric vehicles (EVs) to not be liable for paying anything at all towards the roads for a considerable period of time. That was always going to come to an end, and now is the time that that will come to an end, when the current exemption expires on 31 March.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EI think there might be some debate around the level of discount. I think the Minister, the Hon Simeon Brown, has suggested that\u2014around the level of discount for plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs) and whether it\u2019s 20 percent or 30 percent or whatever\u2014and we will look forward to hearing people\u2019s views on that, and also, as the member Julie Anne Genter has pointed out, on actually what the level of charge ought to be and what is fair and what works.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EThere is a very sensible exclusion around very light EVs. I took the opportunity to have a look at what the weight of EVs is, and even relatively small vehicles like a Fiat 500 electric vehicle are 1,400-plus kilograms. So that kind of vehicle would still be caught. You\u2019ve got to have a very, very small vehicle not to be caught by the 1,000\u00A0kilograms. Also, there is an exclusion, which I don\u2019t think we\u2019ve heard about, for electric off-road all-terrain vehicles, so they are not being penalised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EI think we will need, as a select committee\u2014and I will speak on behalf of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee, as the chair of the committee\u2014to look at the recent consultation and see what sort of advice we had through that. We will need to call for submissions immediately because the time frame that we\u2019ve been given is to report back by 14 March\u2014i.e., by next week. And so members of that committee can expect a very, very truncated submissions process and a very quick approach to getting those submissions in front of us and hearing from people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EWe also heard from the member opposite about EVs and incentives and he questioned the motive around that. Now, I don\u2019t see that as being a fair question, because on this side of the House there is clearly an intention to roll out EV infrastructure right around the country. So that clearly says we want to see more people using EVs. It\u2019s a matter of what the price arrangement is so that they\u2019re paying a fair price.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EJulie Anne Genter asked why we are doing it at pace. Well, it\u2019s always been around 31 March. That\u2019s the time the exemption expires. It\u2019s got to be done by then. Look, maybe it could have been done earlier in the legislative programme of this incoming Government; maybe it could have been done by the past Government. It hasn\u2019t been, it needs to be addressed, and it needs to be addressed now, and that is exactly what we are going to do. She also questioned, again, the incentives for the use of EVs, and, as I said, I think the Government has said we are going to be supporting the roll-out of EV infrastructure, and I am going to be interested in the exploration of the costing around an EV trip versus a PHEV trip versus a petrol car trip. So I am very happy to support this and to commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022 data-id=\u0022c1a34ae1cb714491a51c352ecbd20b7d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c1a34ae1cb714491a51c352ecbd20b7d\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te P\u012Bka. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa. If I may, Mr Speaker, just to acknowledge this is the first time back to the House since the tangi for Efeso: anana, t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EKa t\u016B au, just to speak to this pak\u0113 road-user charges. Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori do not support this Government\u2019s transport agenda. Our policy would see the use of both accessible and efficient free public transport: free for tamariki, free for students, free for community service cardholders, and made free for everyone within five years. Our policy also ensures that urban planning and infrastructure allows for safe cycling and walking paths; cheap, accessible public and active transport; and prioritising regional and rural Aotearoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EWe know that cars and private transport will always be a reality. We know that most of us rely on petrol and diesel vehicles to get around to support our wh\u0101nau. This is why it\u2019s necessary to bring down the costs of electric hybrid cars. We must make electric hybrid cars an affordable option for our wh\u0101nau. In reality right now, for many in Tai Tokerau and for many M\u0101ori across the motu, it\u2019s just a bit of a pipe dream, to be honest. This bill works directly against that. That is where this bill comes in and the whakaaro behind our position today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EWe understand that the road-user charges exemption is set to end in April. We also understand that this bill is setting a transition phase for that. However, we also understand the bigger picture behind not extending this exemption. For example, this Government has campaigned to build 15 new roads and are pledging $500 million to fix potholes. The one pothole they cannot fix, however, is the $24 billion pothole in their budget. Road users will end up paying for their reckless policies\u2014regos are to be put up by $50. This money will go towards funding 50,000 roadside drug tests, which they will be making back by increasing fines\u2014how does that work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EThe cancelation of cycleway and walkway projects will contribute to road congestion, and, by extension, the increase of congestion charges at peak hour traffic. This Government is taking the option away from people to use reliable public transport, forcing them to sit in traffic and then for them to pay for it because the Government cannot plan more than three years ahead. By disincentivising electric vehicles while at the same time cutting public transport, this Government is fuelling climate change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EThe Government has put sustainable transport options out of reach, making it harder for our people on lower incomes who already spend their income on transport to pay more to catch the bus. It makes no sense to justify more road-user charges to maintain roads and fix potholes with a policy platform that will lead to more congestion and creating more potholes. So I\u2019m looking forward to seeing this go to select committee. Thank you, Mr Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022 data-id=\u002281c1ec33b6eb41c28cd6d419b1fce99e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281c1ec33b6eb41c28cd6d419b1fce99e\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. As I\u2019ve been driving around the roads of Northland, observing the state of those roads and observing the number of electric vehicles and hybrids, along with all the other users on the road, it\u2019s become apparent to me that all people using the road should pay their fair share. It\u2019s important that we have a fair transition to eventually go to a situation where we have a road-user charge applicable to everybody. On that basis, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022d805f19903b248cb8eed406c08ffb423\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d805f19903b248cb8eed406c08ffb423\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m happy to take a call on this bill and signal not only Labour\u2019s support, as my colleague the Labour spokesperson for transport Tangi Utikere did, but also set out some of the questions that we think are really important to explore as we go through that. I would like to signal that, given the importance and the complexity of this, I do think that four weeks at the select committee is a very light period of time in order to get the expertise to come to bear on what are important questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWe heard the Minister who introduced this bill making wild claims that no work has been done on this in the previous Government and then in the next breath talking about the work the previous Government had been doing around road-user charges (RUCs) come 1 March 2024. So this is a long-term piece of work, and indeed there was a piece of consultation that went out, I think, two years ago around what the future of the road-user charge would be\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo we have before us today a piece of legislation which really deals with that gnarly issue of the definition of what it is. So the primary piece of legislation that we\u2019re looking in has hard-wired into it definitions of what electric vehicles are, and this was legislation, of course, that was put in place before some of the technology that we have today\u2014before we had purely electric and plug-in hybrids and had the plethora of technological options that we have today in the fact that we do have decarbonising transport.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhat I really want to stress is that when Labour was doing this work, we saw this very much as a suite of policies, extending this exemption out for the light vehicles through to 1 March 2024 being part of how we did drive that massive uptake of electric vehicles in New Zealand that is going to be needed to meet our emissions budgets, to reduce our carbon, our greenhouse gas emissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWe saw it as sitting alongside things like the Clean Car Discount so that we could ensure that more New Zealanders could have access to not only lower emissions but lower-cost forms of transport. That was really important. Also, that sat alongside the work that we were doing around electric vehicle charging and the massive boost that we gave to the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority in terms of how it rolled out our charging infrastructure around New Zealand. These all need to be seen as an interrelated package that needs to go together, and when this bill goes to the select committee, our members will be asking questions\u2014what will removing this now do to the uptake of electric vehicles? How will that sit alongside the targets that sit inside emissions budget 1 but also the work that\u2019s been done around the second emissions reduction? How are we going to achieve those targets, which the Government is saying it is committed to achieving? What are policy implications from a greenhouse gas emission perspective of this piece of legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe other thing that I\u2019d like the Government to consider as this bill goes to the select committee is that this is a piece of legislation that is looking at definitions, which, as I said, is one of the gnarly pieces in the policy work in this area. We know that 44 percent of our energy-related emissions in New Zealand comes from the transport sector and 20\u00A0percent of all of New Zealand\u2019s greenhouse gas emissions come from transport, and the bulk of vehicle fleet, light-duty passenger vehicles are the vast majority. Heavy vehicles only make up 4 percent, and this piece of legislation is only looking at heavy vehicles and light vehicles. But we know that 4 percent of heavy vehicles make up 25\u00A0percent of transport\u2019s total emissions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EAnd there was work done by the previous Government\u2014in fact, in the consultation that went out on that issue of definitions about the fact that we now have new fuels that were never envisioned when the legislation was written in terms of fuel-cell technology, hydrogen, when it comes to heavy-fleet vehicles. I think we are missing a vital opportunity to think more broadly about how it is. Do we now say we\u2019re going to bring in the RUC for the light-vehicle fleet? That time has come. But we should be putting in place, to decarbonise that much more difficult part of our transport sector\u2014the heavy-vehicle fleet\u2014hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles. What do we need to do and what is the future policy work we need to do to achieve what we have all signed up to in emissions budgets 1, 2, and 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u00227d5c6be292b4417ca6cef4362403755e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d5c6be292b4417ca6cef4362403755e\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker\u2014really pleased to stand in support of the Road User Charges (Light Electric RUC Vehicles) Amendment Bill in the name of the Minister of Transport, Simeon Brown. Quickly, in 2009, the previous National Government exempted electric vehicles (EVs) and plug-in hybrid vehicles from paying road-user charges to encourage their uptake. This exemption was always planned to end when EVs hit around 2 percent of the light vehicle fleet, and, right now, New Zealand has reached that target. This transition is about fairness and equity, ensuring that all road users are contributing to the upkeep and maintenance of the roads irrespective of the type of vehicle they drive. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022f563ca5526f14b3bb0e4f1903fcd348a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f563ca5526f14b3bb0e4f1903fcd348a\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. Thank you for the opportunity to speak to this Road User Charges (Light Electric RUC Vehicles) Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI will begin my contribution with a brief comment about the select committee referral. This is something that my colleagues and I will be seeking to debate, and it\u2019s something that the chair of the committee\u2014a hard-working committee and a hard-working chair\u2014has brought to the attention of the House, given that he has commented that he will need to open submissions almost immediately, because it has been proposed in this House by the Minister that the committee would be reporting back on the 14th. It is Labour\u2019s position that that is not enough time to delve into some of the issues which need to immediately be addressed within this bill. So I will come to the reasons for that in my speech, and then I\u2019ll be asking for a call on the motion when the Minister moves it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo just to quickly recap about what this bill seeks to do, as the Hon Dr Megan Woods has said, it redefines and checks in with the definitions of things like electric vehicles (EVs). This is meaty policy work. In an environment where the technology around this is changing constantly, it is for the committee to give itself an assurance that the definition that we create today in the legislation is fit for purpose not only now but in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EWhat is drafted currently is backwards-looking. It deals with the problems that we have had now, and the Government work on this\u2014which the Minister has had the benefit of speaking to today\u2014was done broadly since 2021, but we need to ensure that the advances in technology are captured within the definitions here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EIt also sets a differential rate for plug-in hybrids and an exemption for very light EVs. But one of the things that the committee will be asked to deal with is whether those weight ratings are appropriate, given the kind of policy problems that the House is being asked to solve here about everyone paying their fair share, when large vehicles only make up a very small proportion of New Zealand\u2019s transport fleet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo what needs to happen next? Well, the questions that the Labour members have addressed in our speeches on this side of the debate have not had an opportunity to be addressed. They are about what the impact of this policy will be on New Zealand\u2019s transport fleet as a whole. That\u2019s something that the select committee needs time to delve into and understand, because the impact of this policy decision will take us away from, essentially, what was a subsidy of users of electric vehicles in order to incentivise their uptake and their use. That was a decision to expand the number of electric vehicles which were being imported into New Zealand, alongside other policy decisions like the Clean Car Discount. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThose were incredibly effective. They meant that New Zealand had one of the highest rates of increase of uptake in electric vehicles in our fleet in the world, and when we take away those options for people, it means that we will see an ongoing effect over several decades in terms of what is available not only in the primary vehicle purchasing market but also for the secondary vehicle purchases, which is most New Zealanders. Many New Zealanders will not then have the opportunity, if newer vehicles aren\u2019t coming into the country through things like corporate fleets, to be able to buy them in the secondary market, and it will have an ongoing effect on the emissions of our vehicle fleet as a whole when people hang on to their older vehicles that do not use EV technology.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo we need to give ourselves some assurance, as this House, that this isn\u2019t having a long-run effect on our emissions profile over time, and those numbers aren\u2019t available for the House today. They are unlikely to be made available to the select committee in a four-week process. We need the time to be able to delve into the impact of this decision on coming generations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s also some work to be done on what the Government members have presented to the House as the 2 percent of the vehicle fleet being sort of a goal of the EVs represented within that. That certainly doesn\u2019t represent the number of EVs in the vehicle fleet. That would be a good idea. We still, I think, have a general agreement in this House that it is good for our transport fleet to reduce in its emissions profile and also to become less dependent on foreign offshore oil. Those are good things, and so we need some assurances at the select committee level about how we continue to incentivise the uptake of ordinary people buying primary or second-hand cars to purchase EV vehicles. Those are the sorts of things we will need to delve into. We will also need to understand the implications for, say, those hard-working taxi drivers in Manurewa, in my electorate, for whom this will completely change their business profile. For those reasons, we\u2019ll be seeking calls on the motion to refer this to the Transport and Infrastructure Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022 data-id=\u002236c50fcac4ed4eafa8ea9f4e2684d5f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002236c50fcac4ed4eafa8ea9f4e2684d5f4\u0022\u003EDAVID MacLEOD (National\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m very pleased to stand and talk to this particular bill. I think it\u2019s very pleasing, as a country, to think that we\u2019ve got up to 2 percent of these types of vehicles at the level here that are traveling upon our roads. But it\u2019s also of no surprise to any of us that we think it\u2019s only fair and reasonable that they actually now start to contribute to the cost of our roading itself. The fact that we\u2019re looking at moving this to the Transport and Infrastructure Committee\u2014it\u2019s absolutely appropriate that they do take calls of submissions from the public about the rate at which those particular vehicles pay\u2014whether it be the $53 for the hybrids or the $73 per thousand kilometres for the electric vehicles. So I\u2019m very supportive of this bill moving to the next stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002217be911e0938423b9a26c3c2e019374a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Road User Charges (Light Electric RUC Vehicles) Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; New Zealand Labour 34; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 20\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000321\u0022\u003EBill read a first time. \u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002232c2437ae9794daf8ac72a8dc0a8f809\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThat the Road User Charges (Light Electric RUC Vehicles) Amendment Bill be considered by the Transport and Infrastructure Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00223890ace4e2f14185aa0125dec2b301e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223890ace4e2f14185aa0125dec2b301e2\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000323\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Transport and Infrastructure Committee.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b66ac6bacf214fa18c55aefc4cd22982\u0022\u003EInstruction to Transport and Infrastructure Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f95d7b9965274cbaac9cf206b5f0fef8\u0022\u003EInstruction to Transport and Infrastructure Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0a3da1c19654a4ab64a81741192933a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0a3da1c19654a4ab64a81741192933a\u0022\u003EHon Dr SHANE RETI (Minister of Health)\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Transport: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I move, That the Road User Charges (Light Electric RUC Vehicles) Amendment Bill be reported to the House by 14 March 2024 and that the committee have authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting, except during oral questions, during any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, and outside of the Wellington area, despite Standing Orders 193, 195, and 196.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022861a1798-a396-4a6c-b9e2-7d2f15d4a001\u0022\u003EIt is worth noting that the need for this bill before 1 April has been known since 2021, when the previous Government extended its previous expiry date. The previous Government also consulted on the changes that we are making, at the start of 2022. However, they left us with responsibility for making the policy decisions and drafting the legislation, which we have done at pace to allow for maximum possible time for the Transport and Infrastructure Committee to consider it. On that basis, I ask that the House endorse a report-back date of 14 March 2024 for this piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2add0666a654f83a1f4bfc9b7506298\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be\u00A0agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00228a740b098a6846ffadd3018f325b5004\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a740b098a6846ffadd3018f325b5004\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker, for the opportunity to speak to that motion. Labour opposes this motion because the appropriate amount of time for the select committee to consider this bill is the ordinary length of time, which is six months. The reason for our opposition to the 14 March report-back date is that this bill contains a number of technical changes to the definitions which would apply to the vehicles in question. It also contains some ratings about weights, which the committee should be hearing from experts in order to balance the policy decisions which are being set out by the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EOn this side of the House, the Labour members do not oppose the work that the Government is undertaking on this and we appreciate the need for pace. However, six months is the appropriate time for the select committee to come to what could very well be a consensus-based position on the appropriate way to take this forward. Because Labour members also see the need for an appropriate way for road-user charges to be levied on light electric vehicles and heavy electric vehicles, but what is in the bill currently may very well need the House to revisit it and use House time again to consider what has been set out in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe only other opportunity to do that would be in committee of the whole House stage. At this point, it would be inappropriate to do that because Government members do not have the benefit of the advice to take to that committee stage in order to propose amendments to some of those technical changes like the definitions and like the weight ratings. There is no ability for Government members to do that currently. We need the select committee process to be able to do that, and four weeks is not a reasonable amount of time to get the information that we need to be able to do that technical work from the officials or from the public, who should be able to be involved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThere is also some opposition to, then, the need to be sitting without regard to Standing Orders 193, 195, and 196. If there was an appropriate amount of time given to these changes, then there would be no need to disregard those long-held Standing Orders, which allow members to conduct their electorate work\u2014their important constituency work\u2014alongside the work that they are expected to do in this House. Essentially, you have Opposition members who are technical experts in this\u2014and I tip my hat to the Hon Julie Anne Genter, who will be asked in the select committee stages to weigh in on a number of technical matters which she knows about. But she is being asked, as are my colleagues in the Labour Party, to give up what would otherwise be spent representing the constituency work when that is purely because the Government has not allowed enough time in its legislative agenda to progress these changes in the normal, democratic way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe Labour Party is proposing that the Minister reconsider the motion and put a six-month report-back date in it. Then we will be happy to vote for it through to select committee and to participate in a completely bipartisan way. It is impossible for us to do that on the current motion, and so on the current motion we will have to oppose it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u0022e609a5a1a9604815990f5b5e21a5a5fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e609a5a1a9604815990f5b5e21a5a5fd\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E Firstly, I just want to clarify: I\u2019m pretty sure that I heard the Minister, the Hon Simeon Brown, recommend a report-back date of 14 March. That\u2019s only nine days from now. It\u2019s 5 March today. So that\u2019s not a four-week select committee period; that\u2019s less than a week. And it\u2019s really difficult to see how the public who will be affected by these changes and also other technical experts will be able to develop a submission and submit to the select committee, and for the select committee to have enough time to deliberate and report back. I don\u2019t see how it\u2019s physically possible. So the Green Party would be opposing that motion. And, while I fully support the Labour member Arena Williams\u2019 suggestion for a normal select committee report back date, which would be six months, at the very least four weeks would give the public and the select committee more time\u2014some time\u2014to be able to properly consider what has been put forward. And, again, this is because the bill deals with highly technical matters that have to do with specific vehicle weight classes, and it is really important to get this right\u2014this change is going to have far-reaching implications.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EI understand the Government may have set some time frames of its own that it wants to keep to but, given that the bill has only had its first reading today, to recommend a report-back date of next week seems completely farcical and unreasonable, and even though we didn\u2019t support the bill at first reading, if it is going to go to a select committee, at the very least we should have four weeks to report it back. I think nine days is simply way too short to consider everything that needs to be considered from the public. One of the issues that I raised in my first reading speech was the significant discrepancy between what electric vehicle users and plug-in electric vehicle users will be paying on the same trip as a comparable car\u2014that is, a fossil fuel car like a conventional Prius hybrid. According to the Minister\u2019s data that he has given us, they\u2019ll be paying more than twice as much. I think that there is an opportunity through the select committee to ensure that the rates that are set and the bands of vehicle they apply to are more fair. But I don\u2019t see how that can happen if the select committee has to report back in just nine days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022baf29311eb604f18ab48c4f2abe35302\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022baf29311eb604f18ab48c4f2abe35302\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I signalled in my substantive contribution on this legislation some of my questions that I would like answered. As my colleague Arena Williams has pointed to, Labour is supporting this bill. This is policy work that we started, but there are still really important questions that need to be considered, and nine days simply is not long enough to consider those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EOne of the things that I am going to point the House\u2019s attention to is in the departmental disclosure statement wherein it talks about the external consultation that happened on the policy document that underlies the legislation we\u2019re examining today. There were over 3,000 submissions; they were far from unified. In terms of what a nine-day select committee period will do to the number of people that we already know have an interest in this policy area, they will expect, and rightfully expect, that there will be a legislative process that they can feed into. It is not an unfounded expectation of people who take the time to lend their expertise into a ministry-led consultation on a particular policy area to understand they\u2019re also going to get a chance at the select committee stage. The pressure and unrealistic expectation that this nine-day time frame puts on those submitters is not something that Labour can support. The people that have expertise in this area that we need to hear from need longer, and it\u2019s just undoable and not realistic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe second area that I\u2019m concerned about is the kind of advice we need to get to make proper, informed decisions about whether the balance is right between the various technologies. Other speakers have talked about the modelling around\u2014what we need to do is see the modelling and talk to officials about the modelling that is settled on the relative rates for battery electric and plug-in hybrid electric vehicles. The fact that we have the seeming anomaly that has been released from the Minister of Transport that you could, by driving a plug-in electric vehicle\u2014a hybrid\u2014end up paying more than if you were driving a petrol car or a diesel car, a vehicle that ran on fossil fuels. It seems counterintuitive, and members of this House, as good legislators, need the time with officials to understand that modelling, to understand the thinking that lies behind it, and to look at whether there have to be changes made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWe get there needs to be a balance. No one is saying this is easy policy work, and that is precisely why nine days at select committee is simply not acceptable, not doable, and not going to achieve the best outcome that we need for New Zealand. We know we\u2019re here having to alter definitions in the primary legislation because we have hard-wired in technology definitions into our road-user charge (RUC) legislation. This is a rapidly moving field. Are we capturing everything? Are we setting ourselves up for the conversation we also need to have about heavy vehicles that I signalled in my first contribution on this legislation? Do we need to make this more fit for purpose so that we can come to think about what we have to do to incentivise the kind of technologies that we\u2019re going to need to address 25 percent of transport emissions that we have in this country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThe other thing that I simply do not believe that we\u2019re going to have enough time for over nine days is to see the necessary modelling, either from the Ministry of Transport or from the climate commission, around the impact that this change, given that this is happening in a different policy context than the previous Labour Government went out and consulted in, is going to have on emissions, and, in particular, emissions budget 1 and emissions budget 2. There is modelling that needs to be done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EWhen the Labour Government went out and consulted on the 1 March phase-out of RUC exemptions, we had a Clean Car Discount. We had other measures in place that were driving the uptake of electric vehicles (EVs) and, arguably\u2014well, actually, demonstrably; not arguably\u2014were driving the uptake of EVs at a far greater rate than RUC exemption ever had. I, as a legislator, need to know what impact this is going to have on emissions budget 1, what impact it is going to have on Emissions Budget 2, because this matters. This is why Cabinet requires climate impact statements on Cabinet papers. We have to understand that. The Government that is leading this, the National Party part of that Government that is leading it, signed up to the Zero Carbon Act. The National Party that is leading this say that they\u2019re on target to meet emissions budget 1 and emissions budget 2. If we\u2019re going to make those claims, we have to hear from the experts. As responsible legislators, we need more time than nine days so that we can receive that modelling. That modelling is wholly dependent on various variables\u2014there we go, various variables\u2014that will come in in terms of what that modelling will look like, what will the fleet be in 2030, what will the fleet be in 2035 as a result of this policy action.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThis matters. We are talking about a big chunk of New Zealand\u2019s greenhouse gas emissions. We are talking, in our light vehicle fleet, about something we simply have to decarbonise, but I don\u2019t know how we\u2019re going to achieve that. As someone whose vote is being cast in favour of or against legislation, I want the opportunity to hear from the experts and to know what those implications are, and nine days is simply not acceptable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not just about us as the politicians that will have to sit there and hear it. This is about the submitters. This is about those people who, rightly, think that they\u2019re coming back to have a place in a legislative programme. They gave their expertise in terms of the first initial consultation document that came out. I think it is, frankly, rude of this House to say, \u201CWe\u2019ll take your expertise at that policy consultation stage, but, look, we\u2019re on a bit of a rush for a 100-day plan because we\u2019ve got a marketing gimmick as a new Government and we want to get it through, so we\u2019re not interested in your expertise coming to bear on the legislation.\u201D So let\u2019s respect those people that give their expertise freely, and let\u2019s remember that our legislation in New Zealand is better because we do have robust consultation and that we have consultation that happens at a policy level and then we have it that happens at a legislative level. That is what is being denied, and it is also not giving the officials, I would put forward, the opportunity to do the modelling, to prepare the evidence that members need to see to understand what it is they\u2019re voting for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022477cee81c76944de93e9c5e84346d5c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022477cee81c76944de93e9c5e84346d5c2\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s not really a pleasure to take a call on this move, but I appreciate the opportunity to outline my opposition to the motion put up by the Minister in relation to this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI wanted to cover a few procedural aspects of this bill which I don\u2019t think have been covered by previous speakers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d13b65a5f7b4404a4e0b91cff6679fa\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I will just note there\u2019s been some speakers on this\u2014we\u2019re not debating the substantive bill. I think the previous speaker, Megan Woods, very skilfully ensured it was about timing, and I\u2019ll be looking for the same skill set by subsequent speakers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b03851e21da84c41bdd198efeab4c519\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t pretend to have the same skill set as the previous speaker, but I\u2019ll do my best to raise some valid points in relation to this incredibly short nine-day select committee process that has been proposed by the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ENow, select committee processes are something that I think the entire Parliament is proud of. It\u2019s something that is notable when people visit other jurisdictions or, when they come and visit our Parliament, they often come and visit select committees. The reason for that is because of how important the select committee is in taking and listening to the views of everyday New Zealanders and providing those views to decision makers, to legislators, and then seeing those changes and issues either adopted or addressed or reflected in the subsequent pieces of legislation. So I don\u2019t think this is a trifling matter. It is fundamentally important to the design of our democracy to have a meaningful select committee process and that is even more important because of the fact that we do have a single House; we don\u2019t have an Upper House which is taking the opportunity to scrutinise the legislation once it\u2019s passed and that gives, in my view, more constitutional significance and importance to the select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThis nine-day proposal that has been put forward by the Minister would mean that the report back was on a Thursday which was a non-sitting day. I think this should be mentioned because this also provides issues for not only members who will be on the select committee and doing their due diligence to consider any submissions that may be made during that very short period of time but also my colleague Megan Woods spoke about the officials, and it\u2019s also important to remember that parliamentary staff, who are part of our select committee, do the majority of the work to report back the committee\u2019s views. It is an incredibly short period of time, nine days, and I don\u2019t think sufficient to consider what is really taking into account new technology and new pieces of technology within the road-user charges system and trying to adopt those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EOften we have changes that are made to legislation\u2014I haven\u2019t gone back and done a calculation of it, but it is something that I may ask the Parliamentary Library to look into, which is the length of time spent at select committee and the shorter select committee processes and the likelihood of amendments coming up in the future, and I surmise that if you were to look into that, you would undoubtedly find that when legislation is not given its full process, then often there will need to be amendments and further House time taken up by fixing errors that are in legislation. So I think that is actually a really significant point to raise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe other point I wanted to raise is on the structure of the legislation and what indeed it seeks to change. Now, this is not a simple one-line, one-clause bill. It actually has amendments to a primary Act\u2014which is the Road User Charges Act 2012\u2014and then it looks to change secondary legislation, and then my reading of this piece of legislation is that it inserts brand new schedules which would require scrutiny. So it\u2019s concerning when there are\u2014I don\u2019t think there\u2019s necessarily a justification when it\u2019s a simple repeal bill or if it is on a simple one line that\u2019s maybe, you know, a very easy concept for people to consider. This is a complex piece of legislation that looks at primary legislation, secondary legislation, and it also inserts new schedules. So those are all important reasons for having a longer select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI note in the Minister\u2019s motion he refers to: \u201Cdespite Standing Orders 193, 195, and 196.\u201D The main Standing Order, as I understand, in relation to report back, which isn\u2019t mentioned, which I appreciate it\u2019s not necessarily required by the motion, but the Minister, in a way, I feel should mention the Standing Order 303, which is the time for a report back. That is set at six months. Now, that is obviously a substantially longer time than nine days and would give the committee a significantly longer period of time to look at the legislation. And we know what happens when select committees don\u2019t meet the report back times. There\u2019s a very, very serious process that they have to go through which involves writing to the Business Committee, which is the committee that is in charge of this House, and putting forward clear reasons as to why they are not likely to meet the report-back date. So that is a very serious procedure that they have to go through, and I think that the fact that has to go through the Business Committee justifies our attention at this stage and I\u2019m glad members are taking the opportunity to debate this particular motion because the converse should also be true: if you want a shorter select committee process, you should be able to back it up with reasons. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI did listen to the Minister\u2019s reasons and, to be fair, I wasn\u2019t convinced at the need for this incredibly short report-back time, because we\u2019re not talking about a report-back time which is half as long, three months. As previous members have talked about, we\u2019re not talking about a month, we\u2019re not talking about two weeks; we\u2019re talking about nine days, including non-sitting days. So that is very, very significant, I think. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI\u2019m also aware that other members have ideas about how this might be improved and I haven\u2019t had a look at it yet, but I do understand my colleague Duncan Webb has tabled an amendment to this motion which he\u2019ll be seeking to speak to, which undoubtedly will increase the amount of time\u2014I\u2019m looking to my colleague to confirm that: that is correct, he\u2019s confirmed\u2014that the select committee would be able to look at that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo I think that nine days is too short. We\u2019ve talked about the staff that it would impact, and I wanted to note that we are in a situation, an environment, where the Government has been looking for cost-cutting measures. We haven\u2019t heard that Parliamentary Services is exempt to that. So placing extreme requirements by this House on staff members in that type of environment I think is very concerning. We don\u2019t want to be in a position where the report is not of the standard that we would expect, and we don\u2019t want to be blaming staff members retrospectively for missing a submission or not reporting something as eloquently as we would like when the reality is that this House is placing them in a situation which is untenable for them to be able to complete their job with that incredibly short report-back time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo I think those are all of the procedural elements that I wish to raise on this bill, but I would just reiterate that I would urge the Government and Ministers to reconsider a longer report-back time. As members have said, we do actually support the content of this bill but we\u2019re in a situation where we\u2019ve had urgency\u2014there is a select committee process here, but it\u2019s not long enough. I don\u2019t think we should start with no select committee and then think, \u201COh, aren\u2019t we so happy, we\u2019ve got nine days.\u201D We actually should start by looking at the procedure as it\u2019s outlined in Standing Orders and the Standing Orders that we always usually look to like Standing Order 303 and working back from there, not starting on the basis of no select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00221fd1178e2cd743c2a623bbe133afe5a9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221fd1178e2cd743c2a623bbe133afe5a9\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the motion be amended by adding the words \u201Cbut not on Saturdays, despite any Standing Order to the contrary.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI move this amendment because I am aware that good legislative practice requires the full attention of members, and this Government has been pressing us rather hard. It\u2019s under Standing Orders: committees can in fact meet at any time, other than when the House is sitting, and under Standing Order 48, which talks about the House\u2014I\u2019m assuming that extends to committees not meeting on a Sunday. So what we have, by this instruction, is the ability for the chair of this committee, the Transport and Infrastructure Committee, to call a meeting at any time, including a Friday after the House has sat, which, under the select committee Standing Orders, is set aside, essentially, as a day of pause, perhaps for constituency work. But not only that, it could also, under the general Standing Orders, call a meeting for the Saturday. Whilst you might still set Sunday aside for a day of rest, it is my contention that given the fact that, for example, we\u2019ll more likely than not be sitting to midnight on Wednesday night and sitting extensively on Thursday, the committee will then also quite likely be sitting on Friday, notwithstanding that it is a sitting week, and then quite possibly Saturday. That\u2019s just not good legislative practice\u2014not only that but it\u2019s actually not good for the health and wellbeing of parliamentarians.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo I have moved this amendment\u2014and I won\u2019t speak to it for a great deal longer\u2014for, essentially, both those bases: so that the quality of scrutiny given to this piece of legislation is up to the standard that the New Zealand public can deserve, so that members of Parliament can have some respite from their legislative duties and come back to it fresh, at the appropriate time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, I gave a nod when perhaps I shouldn\u2019t have, because this motion as tabled does not in fact extend the time, but I would suggest that if the House is happy with this amendment\u2014and I hope it is. I have never been to a select committee that met on a Saturday, but, then again, I\u2019ve never been through a period of urgency such as this Government has imposed upon us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EAs my colleague Megan Woods said, this bill is substantive and important. It\u2019s closely linked to our climate goals\u2014emissions deserve the full scrutiny of the select committee. How are we going to truncate that into the period of time\u2014nine days, I believe\u2014that we have without sitting in truly extraordinary circumstances such as sitting on a Saturday, I don\u2019t know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo my amendment is a very brief one. I would suggest that when the leader of the House, or Ministers in charge of legislation come to these select committee instructions, it would be appropriate not only to say, \u201CWe can include this\u201D but also to rule out days such as Saturday, to rule out meeting after 6 p.m. on a non-sitting week, when people are in their constituencies, perhaps, and try and have some family time. Show that we can achieve both those objectives: the objective of good quality legislative scrutiny, not scrutiny by exhaustion, and also looking after our members so that they can return to their important legislative tasks and their important constituency tasks with the appropriate degree of energy and attention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo I won\u2019t trouble the House any longer with debate on that amendment, but I do hope that the Minister will seriously consider it. It would be extraordinary to sit on a Saturday, and it\u2019s not really much of an ask for the Minister and the Government to rule that out on that amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u002257f92e234927462fb63899ab169463cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002257f92e234927462fb63899ab169463cb\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I do want to take a call on this referral motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ECan I thank my colleague the Hon Dr Duncan Webb for tabling an amendment. What I take from his contribution is that he has done so within the context of the House currently sitting under urgency\u2014something that members of this House are becoming very familiar with, unfortunately\u2014but also that the ability for the select committee perhaps to fully scrutinise in a way that is appropriate would be better served by, effectively, this House issuing, as part of an instruction of the referral, a requirement for the select committee to not sit on a Saturday. Whilst that might improve the referral motion, I still have some fundamental concerns about the very short time frame that this bill is seeking to have in front of a select committee. I did touch on that in my contribution earlier and did indicate that I would be seeking a call to speak to that later.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe House is in a circumstance at the moment where it will, as we understand it, sit in urgency. It\u2019ll sit through till midnight tomorrow after commencing at 9 a.m. in the morning, with the possibility of Thursday and, who knows, possibly into Friday. Now, my colleague Dr Webb talks about the wellbeing of parliamentarians, and I think that is a very salient point: that there would be members of this Parliament who would then potentially roll into a Saturday to hear submissions in a rather discrete period of time. So\u00A0I\u2019m supportive of Dr Webb\u2019s tabled amendment because it basically will allow for a committee, if it is a nine-day period still, to still use its time more effectively. I think, actually, members of the public would think that\u2019s the same view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI also make the point that the House is in urgency. Part of the urgency motion that the Minister moved is the repeal of the Auckland regional fuel tax. Members of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee no doubt will be involved with that particular item. So,\u00A0again, it\u2019s not simply about members re-diverting their attention from being in the House or being in select committee, but the nature of items that have formed part of the urgency motion are such that there are dual responsibilities to members on the Transport and Infrastructure Committee. Certainly, while members may be subbed off, as a member of that committee myself, I would like to hear the submissions that are presented; those who will avail themselves of even a truncated period of time to speak to the submissions, to raise the issues and the concerns.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ESo while I am supportive of Dr Webb\u2019s tabled amendment, I still think that the nine days in total is still completely inadequate and unsatisfactory. So, on the one hand, certainly support the amendment, but the substantive motion still is significantly deficient. Because we are talking about a piece of potential legislation, as my colleague Camilla Belich touched on, involves primary legislation. Not only that, it includes secondary legislation, and that it also inserts some new schedules as well. And that happens from time to time: members opposite; members on this side of the House will know that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EBut by allowing a simple nine-day window for these matters to be addressed and actually for people to get organised and to submit to the process, I think, is shutting the door on these individuals. Let\u2019s remember that this is a bill that, yes, the Minister earlier talked about had been signalled by the former Government. This is a Government that has decided to leave it very, very late in the piece towards its 100th day\u2014that\u2019s what the Minister indicated in terms of his explanation earlier this afternoon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EBut this is also something that has only recently come to the attention of the House that it\u2019s going to be on the Order Paper in terms of being dealt with under urgency. Now, that means there are people out in the community who will not have known that this was actually something that is going to be scrutinised by the Parliament. Yes, there\u2019s an argument for saying, \u201CWell, you know, things were due to expire at the end of March.\u201D, but there are people out in the community who undoubtedly will not know. Actually, even with a nine-day period of select committee\u2014where usually it\u2019s months, as we know\u2014this will probably go through that process of \u201Cthe House is of that view\u201D and still there will be people who would have liked to have submitted on this bill who will not have even known that it\u2019s actually made its way through the House or to a select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ESo to say that we\u2019re going to refer this for nine days is completely inadequate. The only explanation that we have heard in this House as to why the nine days is related to the 100-day plan for this Government. That is the only reason.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f79036256a1345988b80013dbd48b8f2\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: Arbitrary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e780109ac50448d88528bac7ab14c08\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Now\u2014it is arbitrary. So surely there are opportunities that need to be made available.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI want to just note that the departmental disclosure statement that I have touched on previously\u2014there is a lot, I think, being relied on the fact that there was public consultation back in 2022. A lot has happened since 2022, and there might be individuals outside of some of these particular freight and trucking sectors where this is what it said: most submissions were received from the freight and trucking sectors. Now, there will be people like my constituent who sent an email through to me recently, who indicated that, actually, he doesn\u2019t mind having to pay a road-user charge for his electric vehicle but he has real concerns about the weight variance. And this is the absolute mechanism by which those concerns would be aired. Now, my concern is that by, effectively, truncating that period, you are shutting off the opportunity for many to want to be able to contribute.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ESo I won\u2019t go on any longer except to say that I think Dr Webb\u2019s tabled amendment is a sensible one in the circumstances. But that certainly, in my view, does not override the unfortunate circumstance that the substantive motion of nine days\u2019 referral to the select committee is currently before the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022184cfb76059c408e9bfb553232c6d836\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022184cfb76059c408e9bfb553232c6d836\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: In the absence of any other speakers, I will go to the question. The question is that the motion be amended by adding the words \u201Cbut not on Saturdays, despite any Standing Order to the contrary.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ea48c60894b14886b196ee5a49b17381\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227b05d8567f304f17a7c9cb096700e85b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Road User Charges (Light Electric RUC Vehicles) Amendment Bill be reported to the House by 14 March 2024 and that the committee have authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting, except during oral questions, during any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, and outside of the Wellington area, despite Standing Orders 193, 195, and 196.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00229e90280dedee446e96a9f9abdb6f4617\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229e90280dedee446e96a9f9abdb6f4617\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for consideration of the Legal Services Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f85bd4fbbcae465b8884a98d904ae941\u0022\u003ELegal Services Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022701f18af95464e198d8b992d91e2f8e4\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022da40adcd500c4dd2bfae55a495522739\u0022\u003EClause 1  Title\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022dec1dfaaccbc4cdcbf5417c771078417\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dec1dfaaccbc4cdcbf5417c771078417\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Legal Services Amendment Bill. We start with clause 1; this is the debate on the title. The question is that clause 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022dfae426d6edc40a8ba67df1f74cabefa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dfae426d6edc40a8ba67df1f74cabefa\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E You know, it\u2019s traditional, in amendment bills, to be a little more descriptive than the \u201CLegal Services Amendment Bill\u201D. In fact, I know there are a couple of Amendment Papers which suggest descriptions that might be more apposite. It may well be that simply removing funding for section 27 reports would be one of those, because, of course, that\u2019s what it does, and it would be good just for the legislative record for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EBut if you want to have something a little more descriptive, you would say what this bill really does. Of course, it does a number of things, but one of the things it really does\u2014and I\u2019m hoping to have perhaps a more substantive discussion with the Minister later\u2014is it makes sentencing harder for judges. So my tabled amendment, which is marked \u201CB\u201D, actually identifies that by inserting it in brackets: \u201Cthis legal Act is the Legal Services (Making Sentences Harder for Judges) Amendment Act\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI say that because these section 27 reports\u2014and in another speech in this House, I pointed out that Justice Joe Williams of the Supreme Court said that context is essential. You can call these \u201Ccultural reports\u201D if you like, but what they actually are is just contextual reports, placing the offending in the context of family, of community, of culture, and, importantly\u2014and I\u2019ll come to this a bit later\u2014of victims. If judges don\u2019t have that information, it makes sentencing harder. Actually, judges will still try and do their best. They will still try and glean the information that they can from wherever they can, and that\u2019s going to be a challenge. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe regulatory impact statement points out that, in fact, the likelihood is that this bill will have the exact opposite effect of the Government\u2019s intention, in terms of sentencing being more effective and more efficient and more cost-effective. That\u2019s just another way this is making sentencing harder for judges. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo my suggestion is that we just call it what it is. I\u2019m hopeful. I\u2019m not confident, but I\u2019m hopeful that sentences won\u2019t inappropriately increase, but it\u2019s hard to say what will happen. I\u2019ll tell you what will happen is that sentences will bear less relationship with the identity of the offender and the offending, because the judges won\u2019t know, because it\u2019s going to be harder for them to get that information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo this is a situation in which the title of the bill, the \u201CLegal Services Amendment Bill\u201D, it\u2019s just not really good, and I\u2019m surprised the Parliamentary Counsel Office has it there. I\u2019m loath to criticise them, but it would be nice to have had something a little more descriptive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, the Minister may want to table his own amendment, which doesn\u2019t have quite such a pejorative suggested addition, but nevertheless gives the reader\u2014someone flipping through the statute book, as we all do\u2014a much better indication of exactly what\u2019s going on. But I do think that my proposed amendment, the \u201CLegal Services (Making Sentences Harder for Judges) Amendment Act 2024\u201D, is an accurate description of what\u2019s going on now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, I won\u2019t use my full time, because I\u2019ll come back to a number of other amendments I have and questions I have for the Minister in the wider debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u00229a3b996a6d5d42969b8e471f0edfa989\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229a3b996a6d5d42969b8e471f0edfa989\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. I\u2019d like the opportunity of speaking in support of the tabled amendment made in the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s name. I do agree with the honourable member that the Minister of Justice might want to consider some alternative wording, but it\u2019s important that he responds to the premise in the proposed change, which is the fact that this bill should reflect what it does, and that is: making the work of judges more difficult when they are weighing up how to deal with someone who has offended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s really important to note that there have been some good comments made publicly in relation to this bill making it a lot harder for judges. One, in particular, is justice advocate Sir Kim Workman. He specifies that when a judge reads the report\u2014this is the section 27 report\u2014that they actually realise that this person is not only an offender but a victim, and that the circumstances that they\u2019ve been brought up in and have not been always within their control. The other aspect of it is that if you put a person in prison for an extended period of time, you can almost guarantee they will emerge as more dangerous and more of a risk to public safety than they were beforehand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo those were the words of Sir Kim Workman, specifically in relation to what the job of a judge is and the ability of that judge to have all of the information available to them when they make that decision. The problem that we are addressing with this amendment is that if we take away some of that information that is made available to judges, then you narrow the scope of how the judge can weigh up what\u2019s the best way to not only prevent this person from reoffending but also prevent more victims from being created within New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo I think it\u2019s only right that we should hear from the Minister to understand his rationale for the fact that this bill narrows the scope, narrows the availability of information that is laid before judges when they are making those very important decisions for our community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022f51e15b36cd844e7a2bceb976755142c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f51e15b36cd844e7a2bceb976755142c\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I thank the two members for their suggestions about names for this legislation. The Government has named it the \u201CLegal Services Amendment Bill\u201D because it amends the Legal Services Act, and we think that\u2019s appropriate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00220622cf7cc6124f73b146a093989c4cac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220622cf7cc6124f73b146a093989c4cac\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I invite the Minister to perhaps use his creative instincts\u2014I know that he holds a related portfolio. I know there\u2019s another tabled amendment in the name of my friend Ginny Andersen, because this tabled amendment actually also goes to the heart of the purpose of this bill. This is about legal aid, and legal aid is for poor people, and this is removing access to funding for reports from poor people. So rich people can have them because they can pay; poor people can\u2019t. Now, that sentence is perhaps a bit lengthy. I think no good drafter would be quite that verbose, so that\u2019s why the proposal in this tabled amendment \u201CA\u201D is to call the Act the \u201CLegal Services (Removing Access to Reports for Poor People) Amendment Act 2024\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIn a nutshell, that\u2019s what this Minister is doing. I\u2019ll be quite frank, I find it a repugnant thing to do. But let\u2019s call it what it is. People who can\u2019t pay for these don\u2019t get them but people who can do. \u201CAccess\u201D is a good word to use here because it ties in with the concept of access to justice, a concept that doesn\u2019t seem to be one with which this particular Minister of Justice is particularly familiar with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe suggestion that this isn\u2019t about access to justice because it\u2019s an evidential report of some sort makes no sense. This is as much a legal service as anything else, and so let\u2019s just call it out. This amendment bill removes access to these important sentencing reports for poor people. So, Minister, I would challenge you. Unless you can be a little bit more poetic in there perhaps, let\u2019s call it what it is: stuff the poor people; they can\u2019t have these reports. This bill should be called the \u201CRemoving Access to Reports for Poor People Amendment Bill\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u0022df6fdd91cecc4f53afca09d57aa283f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df6fdd91cecc4f53afca09d57aa283f7\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to take a call in support of the tabled amendment to the title of this bill. I was going to suggest that it be the \u201CNon-legal Services Amendment Bill\u201D because, by taking away access to section 27 cultural reports, there is a large group within our society who are not going to be able to access section 27 cultural reports. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI want to support and endorse the comments of my colleague who has spoken previously to me because, as I highlighted in my contributions in the earlier readings of this legislation, I pointed to the fact that affordability is a particular issue for many in the justice system. I pointed to the fact that who will this disproportionately impact, and what we know from the regulatory impact statement and what we know from commentary regarding this is that this will disproportionately impact M\u0101ori, who are, sadly, disproportionately represented in the criminal justice system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ETo support that, I want to refer to an article where the Law Society said that the withdrawal of funding \u201Cwill significantly limit access to justice\u201D. So I\u2019m speaking to my point that this might be the \u201CNon-legal Services\u201D\u2014the Minister is just yawning there. I\u2019m sorry if I\u2019m boring you, but this is important for us to discuss and debate this afternoon. What I was saying was that the New Zealand Law Society Te K\u0101hui Ture o Aotearoa said that the withdrawal of funding \u201Cwill significantly limit access to justice. \u2026 With funding for these reports removed, the only way a person facing sentencing will be able to access them is by paying privately. Those who can afford this would then have a greater level of representation in the Court than those receiving Legal Aid. That is a significant breach of fundamental rights.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ESo I support the tabled amendment\u2014sorry, if the honourable member can just point me to; oh, there it is\u2014where the proposal is that it be called the \u201CLegal Services (Removing Access to the Reports for Poor People) Amendment Bill\u201D. Can the Minister please speak to the points that we have raised about how he believes that this change will not impact on those who cannot afford to pay for section 27 reports? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022561829be347847ccbd1986affe5ceac8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022561829be347847ccbd1986affe5ceac8\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I thought I\u2019d better take a call on this amendment, given it\u2019s in my name. I\u2019d just like the record to reflect also that we really didn\u2019t get any answers back from the Minister in relation to our first suggestion to the fact that giving judges less information\u2014I still think it\u2019s an important point if this bill is proceeding through all stages under urgency and there\u2019s no opportunity for members of the public to be able to submit, I think the very least the Minister could potentially do is to have a go at answering some of the questions that we\u2019re putting forward, or at least explaining as to why these ideas aren\u2019t being taken up. It\u2019s pretty tough for members of the public to watch legislation being made at pace without any open, democratic access to submit or have a view put forward on these ideas. So, from this side of the House, we would heartily encourage the Minister to engage on these questions, because the general public do want to have some answers because it directly affects them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ETo the point of my proposed amendment, which is that this Act replace clause 1 with \u201CThis Act is the Legal Services (Removing Access to Reports for Poor People) Amendment Act 2024\u201D. This goes to the point that if you want one of these section 27 reports going forward after this legislation has passed, then you have to pay for it. So it is a fiscal barrier to people accessing justice. If there are key factors that need to be brought to the judge\u2019s attention, the most effective way of doing this is through those section 27 reports. And by putting a fiscal barrier in here and requiring anybody who wishes to have one of these to go and privately fund them, that is not fair. It is not fair to New Zealanders, and it is not fair in order for the full ability to understand how this person\u2019s rehabilitation\u2014understand how this person can stop offending, that is prevented from even happening because if they are unable to pay for this, then they are, effectively, being denied justice. As a Government, to deny people access to justice is pretty fundamental. So I believe that the Minister does need to explain why he is placing a fiscal barrier to those New Zealanders who are unable to pay for these reports, and therefore preventing them from receiving fair access to justice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s also important to note the implications of this bill for certain demographics within New Zealand. As we do know, there is a disproportionate representation of M\u0101ori within the criminal justice system. These reports do provide a real opportunity for people to be able to have a range of factors brought to the courtroom and brought in front of the judge, and you are disproportionately affecting one demographic within New Zealand, and that is also unfair. We know for a fact that it is already difficult for M\u0101ori to access justice\u2014we have many reports demonstrating that. And it is my view that this piece of legislation adds to that weight against iwi M\u0101ori and weighs against their ability to access justice and get fairness in front of our courts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI understand that there\u2019s some political posturing going on in terms of saying you\u2019re going to be able to save taxpayers a bunch of money, but, at the same time, if you\u2019re chucking up their petrol taxes a whole heap, why don\u2019t you just give M\u0101ori fair access to justice?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002270a49bc41ae842b1b4d5d6ada949ca92\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270a49bc41ae842b1b4d5d6ada949ca92\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Ms Andersen, narrower, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u00229519c2f4cc614a4798b08c0d84f5b671\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229519c2f4cc614a4798b08c0d84f5b671\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Members are raising the policy issues of this bill, and I\u2019m very happy, and the Government is very happy, to debate the policy merits of this bill, which will be appropriate in the clause 4 debate that we have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EWhat we\u2019re doing at the moment, for those tuning in to listen to Parliament, is simply a very brief debate on the title of the bill. The title that the Government has given the bill is the \u201CLegal Services Amendment Bill\u201D, and that is because it is a bill that amends the Legal Services Act, and that makes perfectly good sense. We can use up an hour or two of time coming up with silly names on the other side of things, but if we want to debate the substance of the bill, we can move to clause 4, and I\u2019m very happy to answer any questions on the bill at that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EBut, in terms of the title, we\u2019ve got an obvious title. It says what it does, and I don\u2019t think I need to engage in a long exercise of creativity, such as Duncan Webb suggests.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u002243fda812bf104ba4a057c4b1b637d080\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243fda812bf104ba4a057c4b1b637d080\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Well, before we do move on\u2014I mean, it was a little dismissive of the Minister, which is disappointing. But in terms of the tabled amendment by the Hon Ginny Andersen, I do want to make it clear\u2014and, look, it\u2019s kind of circular: \u201CThis amends the Legal Services Act so let\u2019s call it the Legal Services Amendment Bill.\u201D It\u2019s still not descriptive. We know that there\u2019s many amendments to that Act, and they\u2019re indistinguishable from each other. But this is about poor people, because this is about payment for reports, and these reports cost between about $1,800 and $2,500 each. As I said in an earlier debate\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c59e3d431cf24b48a900738deaba4728\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: Used to be 800 bucks\u2014they\u2019ve gone up a bit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267b98669b97b486f998b92a4d9a3aae8\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: As I said in an earlier debate, your children are fine if they get into a bit strife because you can, no doubt, afford on your MP salary\u2014as can I\u2014these reports. But here, this is saying what it really is: this is saying that poor people don\u2019t get access to justice and they don\u2019t have access to these reports, because whether it\u2019s $800 or $1,800 or $2,200, that\u2019s too much for a lot of people out there who are on very low incomes indeed. So I\u2019m pressing on this one because I think it\u2019s a really important point. I do want to put on record that these reports, you know, they\u2019re not $10,000 reports\u2014they\u2019re not some forensic scientist\u2019s report; they\u2019re a report about family context, victim context, cultural context. They have been recognised as really useful and they\u2019ve been recognised not as making for lower sentences, but making for better sentences\u2014these are sentences that are a better match for the offender, for the wh\u0101nau, for the offending, and for the community. So let\u2019s call it what it is: it\u2019s the \u201CNo Access for Reports for Poor People Bill\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u0022a83d50bef88240d09cae1d4421b490d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a83d50bef88240d09cae1d4421b490d4\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002260587ffb6fcf490da20015f3a7877b6f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002297c5cee24844453eaadc98c3fd872264\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002297c5cee24844453eaadc98c3fd872264\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Ginny Andersen\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 1 is ruled out of order as not being a serious amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EThe Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 1 is ruled out of order as not being a serious amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227fab2b3f991444bc96d093265b52b4d9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002266e64c797ed0415bbe5db42f1accbf61\u0022\u003EClause 2  Commencement \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00224d927981d27b4e6591031b1a3140d073\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d927981d27b4e6591031b1a3140d073\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: We come now to clause 2. This is the debate on clause 2, \u201CCommencement\u201D. The question is that clause 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00224731a5883f674acd8bb4da0356dd6bd6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224731a5883f674acd8bb4da0356dd6bd6\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I must firstly\u2014but briefly\u2014express surprise and dismay that those two tabled amendments were ruled out of order, because they were very descriptive and very apposite. They might have been firmly worded, but they were not joke amendments; they were serious. So I\u2019m actually very surprised and disappointed about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EBut I have also suggested an amendment because\u2014I\u2019m assuming the Minister believes in access to justice for all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225433b849526a439eaf1cf415deb1441f\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019d hope so, being the Minister of Justice!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f8321e4ef694ccf91f9f84b82de09ed\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019d hope so\u2014that\u2019s right, Willow-Jean Prime. I\u2019m sure he knows his Magna Carta and the clause that\u2019s still in force in New Zealand: that the courts will do right by all, rich and poor alike. So I\u2019m assuming that he\u2019d be happy for this little amendment bill of his to be deferred from coming into force until we have finally reached that goal of doing right by all, regardless of whether you\u2019re rich or poor. He is smiling at me. I do believe he\u2019s nodding, and that is, at last we are at one!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EMy proposed amendment, which I think has been marked by the Clerk as \u201CC\u201D, says, \u201CLet\u2019s defer this for Order in Council, and once this Minister, who has such lofty goals of equal access to justice for all, can certify that there is equal access to justice in New Zealand for all, regardless of means, that\u2019s a great date on which to bring this into force, because this bill, this funding, won\u2019t be needed.\u201D In fact, you could probably put a Legal Services Repeal Act in and, if we got to that lofty goal, we\u2019d probably vote in favour of it. It\u2019s a wee way off, to be fair, but we\u2019re happy to wait.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo my proposal is that we don\u2019t set a fixed commencement date. It\u2019s a little unusual to have a deferred commencement date. I\u2019m familiar with the caution that the Clerk and the Parliamentary Counsel Office have around executive powers being able to wait. But, if the objective here is to get rid of something that\u2019s not needed, let\u2019s wait until that day arrives, when everyone, if they do find themselves in a bit of strife and are needing one of these reports, can in fact get it. I\u2019m sure the Minister can\u2019t want a world in which some people who have wealth will get a better justice outcome than those that don\u2019t have wealth. And, if that\u2019s the case, I\u2019m sure he doesn\u2019t want this in just now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI must say\u2014putting it in within 14 days\u2014I am a little concerned that this is just a little bit of posturing around getting stuff done and being able to say, \u201CLook what I\u2019ve delivered to you.\u201D\u2014a kick in the guts for the poor, because that\u2019s what it is. And, if that\u2019s the kind of delivery this new Government wants, it\u2019s really disappointing, because rushing it through and having a 14-day commencement clause is just really unseemly haste. It reflects very poorly on the Government. And, of course, I do want to say this because this hasn\u2019t gone to select committee. I\u2019m saying what a lot of other people would say: taihoa; just hold your horses; there is no massive urgency here. And certainly the papers that I\u2019ve read from the department give that sense: let\u2019s just slow this down a bit, because there are other options; there\u2019s a whole lot of administrative abilities that the Minister and the Legal Services Commissioner have which could equally easily be used to ensure that quality reports are given by qualified people at reasonable prices, when they\u2019re required. You don\u2019t need legislation for that. That\u2019s one of the first rules.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo let\u2019s not get this coming into force in 14 days from, essentially, today, if the Minister has his way with the legislation as it appears on the Order Paper. Let\u2019s just wait a little. Let\u2019s wait for the day when we reach the goal that he and I agree on: that we have equal access for all, whether rich or poor, regardless of means. So I hope he will support that amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u002225dded7cebe14e6b914348ee4f1c8682\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225dded7cebe14e6b914348ee4f1c8682\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. I\u2019d just like to make a brief comment in relation to clause 2, on the commencement. The point I\u2019d like to make is the fact that 14 days is just not enough. It\u2019s a sweeping change to access to justice, and that period of time after Royal assent for this to become law in New Zealand is just undemocratic. There is simply no opportunity for the people directly impacted by this bill to be able to have their voices heard. So my suggestion to the Minister is not only to take a look at the amendment that has been tabled in the name of the Hon Duncan Webb but also to think about what additional consultation should be undertaken as a Treaty partner and also as the Government doing right by the people of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIn particular, I\u2019d like to point out that we know, through written parliamentary questions, that the Ministry of Justice has not undertaken, commissioned, or received any research about the impact of section 27 reports on reoffending. So, given the fact that there has been no evidence base to demonstrate that what is being done through this passage, surely that warrants a slowing up of the passage of this legislation. Surely, as part of a fair, democratic process and as good lawmakers, we should have some understanding about the impacts that this law will make in our community. How can we even possibly understand what that impact is when the very ministry responsible for doing this work has come back and publicly stated, through the written parliamentary questions system, that there has been no research done to demonstrate what the impacts of section 27 reports are on reoffending.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo, for that reason, I think it is really important that we hear from the Minister what the pressure is here, what the huge rush is to make this bill law immediately, to bypass public submissions, to bypass any kind of thorough or rigorous assessment as to what it\u2019s going to do. It kind of looks like it\u2019s just a tick box for the 100-day plan. It kind of just looks like this Government wants to look tough and say they\u2019re doing some stuff. But, really, when you go to that next level and say, \u201CWhy are we bypassing a public submissions process? Why has the ministry not had the ability to do any rigorous research or assessment of the impact of this law change?\u201D, it does kind of look like window dressing to me. So, really, for the Minister to speak to the point as to why this bill is being pushed through so quickly under urgency\u2014why is it being enacted 14 days after the Royal assent? And what is the rush to bypass some of the fundamental facets of our democracy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022386d334ff30945bebecfc605c26adbc3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022386d334ff30945bebecfc605c26adbc3\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and for the contributions of the two former Ministers. We\u2019re debating the clause about when this Act would come into force, which will be 14 days after the bill is passed. That is to give people some notice and to have a process for applications or requests for approval for funding for these reports to be approved by the commissioner before the two weeks, so that people have some time to get the applications in, if they are currently under way, and they can be approved up until two weeks from when this bill is passed. So that\u2019s the two-week period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EIn terms of people being prepared, well, I\u2019m sure all members of the House are conscious of the fact, when we talk about democracy, that this was something that was very well flagged during the election last year and throughout the year\u2014widespread concern about the increase in money being spent on this, going from $40,000 to $7.5\u00A0million in a short period of time. Mr Webb suggests that we should never bring in the commencement of this legislation\u2014and that doesn\u2019t surprise me, in terms of a Government that was prepared just to sit on their hands while all this money was spent, and other legal aid meantime struggled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EIn terms of the debate, it isn\u2019t about the urgency in the House, or the select committee process, but I would make the point that the cultural reports were introduced in the early 2000s, about 20 years ago. They were supposed to be oral reports. At some point, around six years ago, a change occurred and they started to be funded out of legal aid. There was no select committee process or Government decision around that change\u2014it just occurred\u2014and the funding went up very, very substantially. So that is why we are keen to make that change in a timely fashion in order to deal with the issues that we are concerned about in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u00222a675490235e4be2b5f5e705bf9afd46\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a675490235e4be2b5f5e705bf9afd46\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Thank you very much for the opportunity to make a contribution. My colleague the Hon Ginny Andersen talked about the next layer, which, thankfully, the Minister actually touched on, which was the sorts of practicalities of it starting within two weeks\u2014sorry, making sure that the Royal assent is 14 days, or two weeks after. He said for those people to get their application in in that time, before that period ends. My question to the Minister, with respect to that, is: is there flexibility, or is the Minister and the department of a mind, where there are unforeseen circumstances within those two weeks, or, where there is a known backlog in a District Court, whether or not those who are affected by that backlog have some grace here to make sure that they get their application in in respect of the time line that the Minister has just described? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI think that\u2019s important. We know that in many of our courts around the country, there are significant challenges there. There have been backlogs, and we just want to make sure, for absolute clarity from the Minister, given the fact that this hasn\u2019t gone to a select committee and we need an opportunity to flesh out a number of the matters\u2014and I pick up on the words that the Minister has just used in his contribution, saying that those people can get their applications in within the two weeks and that the commencement date is 14\u00A0days after the Royal assent. Given that he said that people can get their applications in before then, we\u2019re seeking clarity here\u2014just a bit more clarity\u2014about whether or not that impacts on those who, for whatever unforeseen circumstances, can\u2019t get it in in that time or, through a court process, it\u2019s delayed, and whether or not there will be any flexibility given to the consideration of their application within what would have normally been the 14 days before the Act comes into force. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThen, of course, without crystal-ball gazing, there are challenges that happen in certain places. We\u2019ve had a bad bout of weather here in Wellington yesterday, which I thought was going to shut the city down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EBut there are these kinds of occasions, and the second part to my question for the Minister is whether or not there\u2019s any flexibility here, because, obviously, once this goes through, that\u2019s that\u2014that\u2019s 14 days. That\u2019s where I agree with my colleague the Hon\u00A0Dr\u00A0 Duncan Webb about whether or not we can come up with an agreement to buy some time here for those who are currently in the system and\u2014what I expect, and as the Minister said\u2014for those to put their applications through. I suspect there\u2019s going to be a flood of them. I suspect there\u2019s going to be plenty of them, and will there be enough time to process them, with the strict 14 days that we are debating here in this particular clause? That\u2019s my question to the Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u0022d65e6cd130864f71878e10c080483c4a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d65e6cd130864f71878e10c080483c4a\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to endorse all the other contributions that members on this side of the Chamber have made in this section of the debate, and I want to talk to a few new points. I see that the Minister is taking some advice there, so I just do want to make sure that he picks up on the points that I want to make around the commencement date. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI fully endorse the comments that have already been made about reasons and concerns and questions that they have about the commencement date. What I want to focus on, in particular around the commencement date, is that this legislation is being rushed through under urgency; it hasn\u2019t had the benefit of a select committee process. I know from reading numerous reports that there are many organisations who are opposed to this proposal by the Minister, who have not been consulted, and who have not been given an opportunity to participate in this debate on the proposals that are being put forward here. This is not good lawmaking, and I would just point out that the New Zealand Law Society, the M\u0101ori Law Society, the Bar Association, and several defence lawyers are all seriously criticising this move by the Government and the Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ENow, what I want to identify, in terms of commencement, is how ready the justice system is for what are going to be the, perhaps, unintended consequences, although I think that the Minister should be aware of the potential consequences of this, because I\u2019m reading from the Newsroom article about this proposed change. Now, why I\u2019m saying that we need to consider a delay in the commencement of this legislation is because, I ask: are our prisons ready for the number of people who could potentially have longer sentences, with more going into prisons in the first place and for longer? Because we simply do not have the information; the departmental disclosure report and the regulatory impact statement are bereft of this information. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EHowever, what I want to point to in the Newsroom report is that officials carried out data analysis in December to estimate the added costs of incarceration. I don\u2019t want to focus on costs; I want to focus on the number of beds. We know that our prison system is already stretched. It said, for example: \u201CFor those currently serving a sentence of over two years\u2019 imprisonment, an additional 136 beds would be required. For those serving a sentence of two years\u2019 imprisonment or less, an additional 120 beds would be required. And for those currently serving a sentence of home detention, 124 beds would be required.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EMy questions to the Minister are: is he confident that our prison system has the capacity and the resources to be able to deal with an increase, which is the likely effect of this decision that he is making today, and which this clause proposes is ready to go\u2014up and running\u2014in 14 days? So can the Minister please stand and explain to us that he is confident that the corrections system, the prison system, and the justice system are going to be able to deal with these types of projected numbers? Can he confidently say that to the committee this afternoon? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI have a further contribution, but it is different to this issue, and I would like to have a response from the Minister on this particular issue before I move on to my next point on the commencement date and the ability of the judiciary to do their job in such a short time when he is fundamentally changing their processes. So I would like to take a call on that, once I\u2019ve had answers to those questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u00223820495699f142789fa42d736f5ad915\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223820495699f142789fa42d736f5ad915\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m happy to tell the member that, yes, I am confident that the corrections system will be able to handle this change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u0022eabeef8aadec419faaad953187b6f967\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eabeef8aadec419faaad953187b6f967\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019m glad the Minister of Justice was able to stand here and say he is confident that they are going to be able to provide these additional prison beds for those who are likely to have different sentencing outcomes in the absence of this report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EThe second point I want to make, and question I want to ask, is: is the Minister confident that the judiciary is prepared for these changes, which are proposed in this section to be implemented, to commence in just 14 days? Now, the reason I ask that is that what we have heard from several who have commented on these proposed changes is that the lawyers and the judges still have an obligation to have this information but they would have to get it in more painstaking ways. They anticipate the filing of Oranga Tamariki, medical, school, police, national intelligence application records to detail a defendant\u2019s deprivation, harm, and disadvantage, and so they\u2019ll have to engage cultural experts, psychologists, alcohol and drug therapists, as well as engage with wh\u0101nau and family who may have literacy deficits and are intimidated by the courtroom. Counsel will need to spend more time obtaining data, and the courts may be given raw data which is voluminous and time-consuming to review. My question to the Minister is: is the judiciary prepared for this change to take effect in just 14 days\u2019 time? Retired District Court Judge David Harvey agreed, saying, \u201Cjudges had an obligation under the principles of the Sentencing Act to consider relevant background factors, so would have to source information previously found in [the] section 27 report[s] in different ways.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister is: what consideration has he given to those judges who are required under the legislation to give consideration to these things, without the very tool that provided that to them in a more efficient, effective, and fair way? That is what we are debating this afternoon. Can he stand up and please give us, the committee, the confidence that he has given consideration to that, that he believes that the judiciary are going to be able to efficiently and effectively, and in a way that upholds justice for all, deliver on their responsibilities under the legislation. What retired Judge Harvey is saying is it leaves the \u201Cquestion mark over the quality of rehabilitation, given that [this is] a large focus of the section 27 report. The fact of the matter is \u2026 as a result of all of this, the courts are going to be deprived of information which they could rely on in the past that would assist in a proper rehabilitative [and a] proper sentence that fulfils the purposes and principles of the Sentencing Act.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ESo, I repeat again, my questions are: do you believe, can you tell us that you have confidence, that in just 14 days\u2019 time, the judiciary and our justice system are going to be able to provide fair access to justice for all and proper sentencing in accordance with the principles in the Sentencing Act? I mean, the whole driver behind this Government\u2019s push for the removal of section 27 cultural reports is costs and funding\u2014I\u2019ll get to that when we debate that in another section. This is about whether the system is ready for this change to take effect in just 14 days, given it\u2019s being passed under urgency, that there\u2019s been no consultation with major organisations and bodies that have known opposition to what is being proposed. We have those who have served in the judiciary, saying it\u2019s particularly unworkable, going to be more time-consuming, and cost more. So can the Minister please answer those questions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u00225f2f002622534240a58f9994009ecf1b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f2f002622534240a58f9994009ecf1b\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Very happy to answer the question. I am confident that in the 14 days after this bill is passed and before the Act comes into force, the\u2014I cannot speak on behalf of the judiciary, of course, but what I can say is that they will continue to have many tools available to them to understand the background of offenders, and within 14 days. That is sufficient time for this change to be made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u00221f53084059ee42c7b259dcc93306afe3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f53084059ee42c7b259dcc93306afe3\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. Just in relation to the commencement of this bill, I note that in the very brief legislative statement that we have received, it specifies that this bill supports the Government\u2019s priorities to restore law and order. I was just wondering if the Minister of Justice would like to say: is he relying on this bill alone to be able to restore law and order to New Zealand, or are there some other things that he\u2019s doing? In particular\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f24515b4508417c9f0befb651bfd251\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I ask the member to relate this to the commencement date, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4887e466bc14ae2a33b58d819e1b8dd\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. Yes. So is he expecting law and order to be restored to New Zealand 14 days after the commencement of this bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u0022e267b88c9f9943279ca87e71974ce6e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e267b88c9f9943279ca87e71974ce6e7\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019d like to ask the Minister of Justice about the practical implications for those involved in these cases, because you\u2019ve not only got the judiciary but you\u2019ve also got lawyers involved in the cases, who, if you\u2019re bringing this in in 14 days, have already been well on the way down a case. So what they will have done is made decisions about how they\u2019re going to run that defence or that case or that plea. This presents a situation, from what I can see, where the information\u2019s still relevant to the court finding, but the written report, that they would usually use as the way of achieving this, won\u2019t be something that is available to them unless they\u2019re willing to pay or their client is willing to pay for that. So they will have to look at other means and they will have to structure that. What I would expect the Law Commission, the Law Society, and the various law societies to do is to actually talk about the role that the judges and the lawyers would play and the way they would do this in a structured and fair way to everyone. So everybody needs this time to adjust to a different system because they still need to take into account these factors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ENow, one of the concerns I have is that it seems like we\u2019re replacing a report, which is seen as expensive, with oral evidence. Oral evidence is not cheap. It is often something that is going to require costs on behalf of the witness\u2014it may be an expert witness, which is going to really blow out the costs. You also have to consider the cost of the judge themselves and the staff around that, because they\u2019re going to have to consider it in the way that the case is being heard, and they\u2019re going to have to decide how involved they get. So, in many of the jurisdictions, the courts will take a more active role if, in fact, that isn\u2019t being done by anyone else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ESo has there been any consideration of running a trial in this, where you could just do this in one place and set it up against the other system and look at the consequences, so there weren\u2019t unintended consequences. What I\u2019m concerned about is the blowout of cost, the delay, the impact on the various players\u2014including, actually, the victims of this. Because what we have, very clearly, in the provision itself, is an issue over really looking at that rehabilitative nature\u2014what is the situation like for that individual? It\u2019s not just about culture in the narrow sense; it\u2019s about community, it\u2019s about the placement of those people, it\u2019s about the chances of reoffending in those alternatives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ESo, if, in fact, we\u2019re going down this pathway, has the Minister considered doing a trial\u2014which I\u2019d be in favour of a lot of legislation doing\u2014extending out this for a little while, while that trial took place? I\u2019m sure you could get more cooperation across the committee to look at that kind of scenario. So, like, do a trial of this\u2014don\u2019t do the whole thing\u2014and measure those consequences, but also give a chance for the lawyers themselves, and the psychologists perhaps, who are involved in this work, and the judiciary to make plans as to how to provide justice in the situation where these reports are no longer relied upon. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00221a4eb969e80d492bb25fc8554fb83be2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a4eb969e80d492bb25fc8554fb83be2\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr. Chair, for the opportunity to ask a question about the commencement date to the Minister of Justice\u2014and I thank him for his engagement on this clause with my colleagues. But this is a significant clause of the bill because it is so swift to make a change which will have a deep impact on people\u2019s access to justice, particularly access to justice for M\u0101ori, who are most impacted by the section 27 changes that the Minister is proposing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMy question about the date is: has the Minister considered transitional and savings provisions in this bill that relate directly to this very fast commencement date? The Hon\u00A0Peeni Henare touched on this earlier: there is no provision in this bill that the Minister has proposed, and so it relates to the commencement clause because it would be inserted, usually, after a commencement clause, and that is when an amendment would be relevant there. For example, with changes to the extent to which the disbursements are incurred in relation to a report or a statement, whether they are written or oral statements presented in court, of a person called by an offender under section 27 of the Sentencing Act\u2014if there are those in train now, can the Minister give the committee some assurance that those will remain in train and that those will be funded? How many of those are in train now? How many witnesses or expert witnesses do we have appearing at the moment who will be affected in the next 14 days? And is it relevant to create a transitional provision to save those processes which are before the courts now, that are sub judice, that are being considered now and should therefore be saved?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EAlso, has the Minister considered extending the commencement date specifically for those situations which are already in train now, where reports are being written, given that those are something which a judge has overseen, has had an involvement in asking for, that counsel have also been involved in asking for, that Parliament should respect the convention of not interfering in? And given that those have already potentially been ordered, does the Minister know how many there are that are in train, and will he make a provision for those that exist now, so that Parliament isn\u2019t unduly interfering in business before the courts that exist currently? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022b55ed05861274ee885629c5e47947d87\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b55ed05861274ee885629c5e47947d87\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E No, I haven\u2019t considered extending the period beyond 14 days. But what will happen is the two-week time frame is to allow for legal aid providers to be advised of the change. Requests up until commencement could still be approved by the commissioner. Requests approved before the date will then be paid in the date. So requests that have been approved by the commissioner within the 14 days will be paid. Requests can be considered up until the 14 days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022805bd2d0a778494aab32182953308d5e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022805bd2d0a778494aab32182953308d5e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Just for members\u2019 awareness, we are starting to drift into debates which could be better placed in other clauses. So I\u2019ll take another call, but I\u2019d just remind members to stick to this particular clause. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022589258ad3a2a49eeb20bee20646908dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022589258ad3a2a49eeb20bee20646908dd\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora. Thank you, Mr Chair. I do hope, in terms of notifying legal aid providers within 14 days, the Minister\u2019s not using New Zealand Post, because that might not quite work. That\u2019s probably for the Minister for State Owned Enterprises. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI do want to talk about commencement and that 14-day period because, as the Minister has just pointed out in terms of that, within that period the legal services agency will have to formulate the notice and what it means for various providers and send it out. This is the point I want to make about the commencement date: providers will have to adjust their practice accordingly, and, in particular, legal aid providers are generally very busy criminal practitioners, and they will want to do right by their clients, and this will create an enormous bulge of work. The reason for that is that what, essentially, legal aid providers\u2014lawyers\u2014have been doing is subcontracting this bit of evidence, saying, \u201CWe need cultural report evidence; I\u2019m really busy, it\u2019s not really my area of expertise. Please can you find out about the family circumstances, the cultural background, the victim\u2019s circumstance and what the relationships are, and get back to me and I can present it to the court.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, these practitioners with 150 criminal files on their desk will have to do that themselves. That\u2019s not something they\u2019re geared up to do within 14 days. These are cases where the reports haven\u2019t been commissioned yet and won\u2019t be commissioned yet. These are cases that are in train; might not yet have gone to trial so a sentencing report isn\u2019t appropriate yet. What will happen is that the burden of this work which will fall upon them will mean they can\u2019t possibly satisfy all of their clients and do right by them. So,\u00A0Minister, in fact, the kind of impact of this, the ripple effects of this will be felt in the legal profession in terms of how they properly serve their clients for six, nine, 12 months, depending on how quickly you can sort out the court backlog. The lawyers can\u2019t just say, \u201COh look, I\u2019m too busy, I can\u2019t possibly do your sentencing report. You know, I can\u2019t possibly talk to your mum, talk to your brothers and sisters, talk to your kaum\u0101tua about what your cultural background is.\u201D, and do all of that work, and then get all of those bits of evidence in a presentable form\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff661a4b790a4cb398a91aa714d7c7e5\u0022\u003EHelen White\u003C/span\u003E: Call the witness.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022467b27cfa0fb417e8ca89dd20b546715\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CCall the witness,\u201D as my friend Helen White said; call the witnesses orally, if necessary, perhaps get letters from them to present to the court because informality is generally OK in those situations. That\u2019s all work that this commencement provision doesn\u2019t allow for. This is going to be a bomb of work that lands on these practitioners because there\u2019s no phasing out. It\u2019s just a guillotine where the funding for these reports is stopped but the need for them doesn\u2019t and these hard-working criminal practitioners, and I must say the Crown as well\u2014no Crown solicitor I have spoken to thinks this is a good idea because they also want to see this done; they want to see this evidence. So it may well have an impact on the Crown\u2019s work as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI know the Minister came to the Justice Committee and said you want to work on the backlog. This is going to exacerbate it because we don\u2019t have a transitional phasing in; it doesn\u2019t commence in a period of time for practitioners and judges, prosecutors, and defence lawyers to have time to adjust their frameworks to it. So I\u2019m interested as to whether you\u2019ve talked or thought about that bottleneck of work that will hit the legal profession as a result of the quick commencement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022 data-id=\u00227012ab40dc704807acedd06722776d16\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227012ab40dc704807acedd06722776d16\u0022\u003EJAMES MEAGER (National\u2014Rangitata):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f75e2cc0c4f54c04b7e845dce0a78fac\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa9af57cdf354378a580e2428c11d37c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa9af57cdf354378a580e2428c11d37c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 2 is ruled out of order as referring to an indeterminate in length and not providing sufficient certainty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224d7e1b60cffb4fde912fc3bcdbc1694d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224854ee0575a347dbab557d12f6b9c66d\u0022\u003EClause 3  Principal Act \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00220b17f883218345cca53de5923376ff77\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b17f883218345cca53de5923376ff77\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: We now come to clause 3. This is the debate on clause 3, the \u201CPrincipal Act\u201D. The question is that clause 3 stand part. No one\u2019s going to take a call?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fc25549857b740cabb28629612d4e8ca\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fc4e2748b86549dd938cb078f7447bb1\u0022\u003ENew clause 3A \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u002230ec4c8f28e84d1f96a548be49230d58\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002230ec4c8f28e84d1f96a548be49230d58\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: We now come to new clause 3A. This is a debate on the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment inserting new clause 3A, replacing the definition of \u201Clegal services\u201D. The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment, inserting new clause 3A, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd53bef55dfd43408ee16f86c5dcba0b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd53bef55dfd43408ee16f86c5dcba0b\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity to speak to this, although I will just note that I\u2019m surprised that my commencement amendment order was ruled out. I thought I drafted that very carefully. I\u00A0clearly need to lean on the Clerks a bit more!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223929540974a3429f8e4b8549337e6731\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ll have to work harder.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022daf0a7976f5b4714bc29666c0b20b111\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I will, Mr Goldsmith, I will. In terms of this tabled amendment, look, I just want to make sure that the Minister\u2019s objective is achieved, because he seems to be saying, \u201CNo legal aid money for sentencing reports.\u201D But, as I said earlier in the House, lawyers will now be completing these reports. What a professional person was doing for $1,200, probably at $80 an hour, lawyers will now start doing for\u2014you know, legal aid rates are pretty abysmal, but for $120 an hour, because it\u2019s part of the work of a lawyer to advocate at sentencing, to gather the evidence, and to present it in as compelling way as they can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, if the Minister doesn\u2019t want that to happen, then he\u2019s going to need this proposed clause 3A, which says that lawyers aren\u2019t to do that work. Now, this is really about me saying that if you\u2019re going to do this amendment, get it right, because that\u2019s what\u2019s needed here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo, ultimately, what do you want, Minister? Do you want the lawyers to do this work? Do you want them to spend hours at the highest rate doing this work, or do you want these reports not to be put before the judge for poor people at all? Because that\u2019s certainly the narrative that I\u2019ve heard from you. So I\u2019d invite you to consider this amendment and respond whether your policy is achieved by lawyers doing the work rather than experts, or by the work not being done at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022b5f99619f69741a9a0acba5fafc7dcbd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b5f99619f69741a9a0acba5fafc7dcbd\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Chair. I\u2019d just like an opportunity to speak to the proposed amendment, and I\u2019d like to commend my colleague on taking some initiative to strengthen the bill\u2014a very short bill, really. So\u00A0having a clearer description of legal services and also what\u2019s covered in there would actually make it a lot clearer for those who are able to access these services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s really important that people understand what they are entitled to in terms of access to justice. I think that, on this side of the Chamber, you know, there is a real concern that there has not been adequate consideration given to the reduction of available legal services that this bill inevitably will create.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo what we really need to be clear on\u2014and the Minister is able to speak to this\u2014is that this bill, effectively, removes legal aid funding for a report or a statement, whether it be oral or written, for a person, and that section stops that information from being heard from not just someone who\u2019s an expert but also potentially from family, wh\u0101nau, or community, that might help that further offending.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo we really want to see a clearer definition in that space, and the proposed amendment provides some very clear language in that space that enables you to spell that out. Also it spells it out in relation to anything other than legal aid, including legal advice and representation, and that type of assistance that would enable people to be able to have some confidence when going through the judicial system that they have that expert advice and have been given a way of understanding what can be, for some, a really confusing, foreign, and quite a difficult process to go through, whether victim or offender. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo, in terms of making access to justice paramount, in terms of removing barriers to people accessing justice, I\u2019d be really interested to hear the Minister\u2019s views on including this new clause 3A within the Legal Services Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u0022d0add05c650e429da3ec1159bf2ba934\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d0add05c650e429da3ec1159bf2ba934\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chair, thank you. I want to just take the point a little bit further from my friends who\u2019ve talked about the concerns they\u2019ve got about what this will lead to. One of the concerns I raised is because I saw what happened when there were closing-down actions by this legislature of the role of various people in the Family Court. So, in that situation, what we saw when we closed down those avenues was others spring up that were way less efficient for the system. So what we ended up with was a whole lot of people told they shouldn\u2019t have lawyers in the process and the process got clogged up by a much less focused approach\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ESo these reports, while not necessarily your cup of tea, Minister, need to be replaced with something because of the nature of the objectives. What I am concerned about is that if this is going to happen, that there is sufficient direction in the legislation so that that happens in a way that is efficient. So what I\u2019ve heard the Minister say outside of this Chamber, and, I think, in the Chamber in question time, \u201CPeople just do oral reports.\u201D I\u2019d like to know from the Minister\u2014I really would like to know\u2014what does he think that looks like? If somebody does an oral report, does that mean they\u2019re bringing in a professional to do it, or does it mean they\u2019re bringing in a wh\u0101nau member to do it? And how is it going to be constrained so that it\u2019s focused in the right way, and not just become a complete mess of a long amount of time in front of a judge who\u2019s trying to get information out of someone who may or may not be articulate or focused on the issues that the judge needs them to focus on? So I\u2019d like to know about that\u2014how is this practically going to work as far as the Minister\u2019s concerned?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EHas he talked to lawyers about how this will work in that area and what it will look like? And whether, in fact, there will be an issue with equity in that case\u2014whether if you\u2019re paying for someone who\u2019s going to be focused in that way and know what to do, versus you\u2019re not paying for someone and it\u2019s a wh\u0101nau member who turns out best of motives but might not have been through this process a lot of times, might not be using any kind of checklist that it may actually be an issue. So I\u2019d like the Minister to tell me, has he talked to people about this? Because there\u2019s no ordinary process for this legislation. Who has he talked to? How does he see the system working in replacement? Does he see the judges taking control of it; the lawyers taking control of it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EAnd what is the place of the oral participation? Who does he expect to participate and how does he expect to do it? And if that is a member of the public\u2014so a wh\u0101nau member, for example, or a community leader\u2014then isn\u2019t the cost that\u2019s being borne by the party for that actually quite a significant cost? Does he know how much it will be in comparison to the cost being borne at the present time by the taxpayer of what has become a very standardised, focused written report? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u002239e439cee9974af8b23e7c97599e62c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239e439cee9974af8b23e7c97599e62c5\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr. Chair. Look, this is clause 4 of the bill, which is the substantial piece in relation to changing the legislation. So it will be worthwhile just outlining what the Government is seeking to achieve. So the broad issue, if I could cast people\u2019s minds to a website that is a company led by Harry Tam, a former gang-member, which is touting for business in these cultural reports and saying, \u201CCome to us, get a cultural report.\u201D, and, \u201CWe\u2019ve managed to get discounts off sentences of up to 35 percent.\u201D\u2014I think was the figure that they referred to. That sort of touting for business for these reports was something that has led over the last six years to a very steady and substantial increase in the outlays for these reports: starting off about 40,000 in 2017 and stepping up to a million and then to 2 million and then to 3 million, and by the time we got to 7.5 million last year and the graph was going up like that [gestures a steep incline]. So the trajectory was clear: if we didn\u2019t do something about it, we\u2019d be heading for 10 million and then 15 million as the industry, the cottage industry, developed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EA member asked me who had we talked\u2014well, one of the people that I talked about was the previous Minister of Justice, Kiri Allan, who accepted that there was a problem with this cottage industry developing and that we\u2019d have to do something about it. Now, in the previous Labour Government, that would have meant not doing very much, and maybe getting a report and thinking about it, and in 10 years\u2019 time maybe considering it. This Government is much more focused and determined to deliver change in a timely fashion, and so we indicated through the campaign that we were going to change that for two reasons. One, because we were concerned about the continued growth of money being spent on these reports, and given that there are many other opportunities for the background of offenders to be considered in such as pre-sentencing reports and many other factors that have been around for a long time; and secondly, we\u2019re also concerned about the broader context of very significant discounts being given to sentences over the year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ENow, of course everybody in this Chamber will recognise that we should take into account the background of an offender and the challenges that they\u2019ve had in their upbringing. There\u2019s obviously a very strong connection between a deprived background\u2014being a ward of the State, for example, coming from a gang family, and many, many other elements that are very much to be considered in the understanding of and the sentencing of prisoners. But, of course, at the same time, no society can function effectively if people aren\u2019t held personally responsible for their actions, and, in particular, for serious crimes. So there is always an interplay between a background understanding and characteristics of an offender, and also the reality that no society can function if people aren\u2019t held responsible for criminal acts. So that balance between the extent of discounts being offered in this category is an area that we as a Government are concerned about, and there will be further legislation down the line restricting the ability of judges to have a combined total set of discounts more than 40 percent\u2014and that\u2019s for future legislation. But the purpose of this legislation is to deal with that rapidly increasing amount of money being spent on what has been described on both sides of the House over the past as a cottage industry. And that is what we\u2019re trying to achieve. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022121a006bbb4d476282be3cd9b2c93b9e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022121a006bbb4d476282be3cd9b2c93b9e\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. Mr Chair, just for clarity: the Minister suggests we were looking at clause 4, I had understood we were looking at\u2014supposed to have been\u2014new clause 3A.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e644fae7f2814aef9ccd3a6f4d58d5ff\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s correct. This is the debate on your tabled amendment inserting new clause 3A.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b988664884f144a68e8ffe6ecf510bbe\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. That was really for clarity. That is my point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EMinister, I have a question, and the question is: how many reports did Harry Tam provide under this legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u002226457ac8b27a4a15b04e03421b20626d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002226457ac8b27a4a15b04e03421b20626d\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E While I believe that my colleague is probably wanting to have a backwards and forwards with the Minister, which is the purpose of these committee stages\u2014 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292e3d84faaf240819c4943918b18fdb0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Do you want to do that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u00222a81aebb0900402fbb49921e94f7984c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a81aebb0900402fbb49921e94f7984c\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I can answer the question only to say, I don\u2019t have that figure right in front of me at the moment. There were some and there is an amount of money that\u2019s been referred to in the past. The website, in particular, that I was referring to said that they\u2019ve conducted \u201Cmany, many\u201D reports.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00227a213247b5ed4e4790e8f421beeeb0d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a213247b5ed4e4790e8f421beeeb0d8\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E In respect of that, I would challenge the Minister, because either he has not got good advice on the floor of the Chamber, or his written parliamentary answers perhaps need revisiting. Because I asked him that exact question and it was framed as \u201CPlease identify the names of the providers and the amounts that were provided to them in the preceding 12 months\u201D, and his response was, \u201CWe do not keep figures of who gets this money in what amount. All we know about\u201D\u2014all he knows about\u2014\u201Cis the amount, the global amount given for these reports across the Legal Aid Budget.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, I would ask you to either revisit that and be clear to the committee, because I put it to you that you have no idea how many reports Harry Tam has provided or how much. And it\u2019s just your reckon, and it\u2019s the kind of laziness with the facts, especially around these important reports that the National Party uses to attack other good practitioners who do prepare these reports, and you slew them by calling them a cottage industry on the back of someone who you don\u2019t know has provided a single report; all you know is that he\u2019s touting for business. So I would put it to you that you either revisit your written answer or you clarify on the floor of this Chamber that you don\u2019t know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u0022b7cf402271e74f29895cf7f64f5d393c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b7cf402271e74f29895cf7f64f5d393c\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I was listening to the Minister\u2019s answers and I have some further questions for the Minister, particularly regarding this. We heard this cottage industry. We heard about some of the report writers that the Minister named and is taking particular exception to. He talked about some of the effects of the reports that have been written and the effect of that on sentences given, and questioning, you know, whether that was appropriate, and also hinting that they intend to bring in further legislation around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister is: did he give any real consideration to other options in the regulatory impact statement provided by officials that could have addressed some of those concerns that the Minister had without just wholesale removing\u2014completely scrapping\u2014the report funding for section 27 reports? Because to quote one of these articles, \u201CTo scrap the report funding completely is a retrograde step and if the information that was usually in those reports is presented to the courts, it would blow out sentencing times and judge times.\u201D The options I refer to are: did he consider imposing a cap on the amount of legal aid funding available for section 27 reports? And option four: did he consider introducing an accreditation system for section 27 report writers? Also, did he consider option five: amend the Sentencing Act 2002 to introduce a threshold for provision of section 27 reports based on the seriousness of the offence?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c421f0ddd9d4c148f2d061c94537e45\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I bring the member back to proposed new clause 3A.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282a20495e4514818aa9b1c6a3e0b285b\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and I am asking the Minister questions based on the answers that he gave to an earlier contribution. It just raises further questions for me because what the Minister was, I believe, using to justify what they are doing, and opposing the suggested amendment, in fact speaks to some of the options that were put in the paper. So my question is: did he give those options? He talked about cottage industry. He talked about Harry Tam. He talked about the quality of the reports. He talked about the outcomes on the sentences. I\u2019m asking the Minister: did he give due consideration to any of the other options? And can he tell us why he thought none of those were relevant to the issues that he was raising?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u0022b4317734fb92401c9860d797b9b8dcec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b4317734fb92401c9860d797b9b8dcec\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c6fd60491c2847a18c8d5558e94b4902\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022733827d2c1164bafadf3eed7e61b721f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022733827d2c1164bafadf3eed7e61b721f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment, inserting new clause 3A, be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022dcfbba14d6e044d4a9a066c6e876a266\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a47b79044f9c4c62b283747633485344\u0022\u003EClause 4  Section 99 amended (Secretary to refer claim to Commissioner for decision) \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022e56b37ce5b9d4bdc827f94345bc263ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e56b37ce5b9d4bdc827f94345bc263ea\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: We come now to clause 4. Clause 4 is the debate on clause 4, amendment to section 99 of the principal Act. The question is that clause 4 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1fb9add5c0e42d5bf9e21a606aeb259\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1fb9add5c0e42d5bf9e21a606aeb259\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E This may be the bit where the Minister stands up and gives a soliloquy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d31de57cb7bf422a8e18adfb78c3d6d7\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: I can do it again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278c680b6b4d44a34a0fedf9e7fad8264\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I didn\u2019t understand it the first time, so perhaps I would the second time, Minister. Who knows?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ELook, Minister, I do know that you have the interests of the justice system at heart. I guess I really would like to understand from you how you think this will impact the wider justice system. Of course, we\u2019re all grown-ups here. We\u2019ve all read the regulatory impact statement and the disclosure, and we know that you\u2019ve received advice which is contrary to the course of action that you\u2019ve adopted: that the status quo was, in fact, as good as what you\u2019re doing now, and other options were presented to you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ELook, this is essentially an introductory contribution in the sense that I would invite you to do more than say \u201CIt\u2019s in our 100-day plan.\u201D, because New Zealanders are not naive. They know that when you come to a question like this, it\u2019s tough. You\u2019ve mentioned the work of Kiri Allan before you and the fact that there was inconsistent quality and value in these reports. We agree that we need to make sure that the best possible advice is delivered to judges and that the best possible value for money is given to the Legal Services Agency for its legal aid spend. We agree.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EBut what we know is that what you\u2019re doing here is a very blunt tool. I accept that you went to the hustings and you won\u2014and you went to the hustings with a whole lot of proposals. But I put to you that you would satisfy your election promises by addressing the flaws which perhaps exist in the current system and not simply cutting out the entire liver of the legal system and not just the little cancer that was touching on it. Because that\u2019s what you\u2019ve done: you\u2019ve taken out a fundamental part of our criminal justice system\u2014just thrown it away\u2014and it\u2019s going to really affect people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo I would invite you\u2014I know there\u2019s a little joke that you spoke a little earlier in a general sense when perhaps it was inappropriate. But I\u2019d invite you now to just respond to that: why you feel the need simply to do exactly what you promised, where a more nuanced and kind of grown-up approach would actually be better for everyone, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022d879a3d2572241cdbd997ae523a8c792\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d879a3d2572241cdbd997ae523a8c792\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Webb, for the opportunity. The broader context of this, of course, is in the election last year with\u2014all members across the House were out talking to many, many New Zealanders; knocking on doors. The very clear message we got on the doorstep was the number one issue of concern was the cost of living.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ENumber two\u2014consistently\u2014around most parts of New Zealand was a concern around law and order, and that is why there has been a commitment in this Government to restore law and order as one of our key priorities. This bill forms one very small part of that broader agenda, and so there are many other pieces of legislation and Government decisions that are being made in that broader context. Such as changing the focus to reduce the prison population by 30 percent\u2014which the previous Government focused on regardless of what was going on into the community\u2014and switching our focus to reducing the number of victims of crime. A second one is the gang legislation that we\u2019ll be discussing later, and there are many more to come.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThis bill is a very focused one which is dealing with a small area of the legal aid spending and the judicial process where, through the sentencing part of the legislation, there are a whole lot of things that judges need to consider\u2014and the background of the offender is very much part of that in a number of elements of the sentencing law. There is one particular clause, clause 27, which is talked about in the context of cultural reports. This was introduced in the early 2000s, and, for a very long period of time, it was supposed to be an oral report to give some background\u2014generally from family members\u2014on the background of the offender to be considered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThen, about six years ago, it became available for legal aid funding and there has been a very steady increase. Just so people understand: in 2016-17, there was $38,000 spent on these reports, and then if I go every second year it just went continually upwards. So 2019-20, it was $1.5 million; 2021-22, it had gone up to $5.6 million; and it kept on accelerating. So 2023, it was up to $7.2 million and it was just taking off steadily. This last year, it\u2019s dropped a fraction, and that is clearly a reaction to the public pressure that National and our coalition partners who were also concerned about this were raising. So what we were concerned about was an industry was developing whereby all these reports were being written.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ENow, previous members have said, \u201CWell, did you consider doing other things?\u201D Yes, we did. You could consider regulating the industry, and that would be a very Labour Government thing to do: to regulate the industry and get some regulator in to decide whether these reports were good reports or bad reports, and probably requiring an MA in history or criminology or something for the report writers, and you could set up a system to regulate it and we didn\u2019t think that that was a very clever thing to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EAnother thing you could have done was to repeal section 27, full stop. Some people were advocating for that and we decided not to do that. We have left the section on the book, but we have decided that our focus is not to allow this industry to keep on growing and growing and growing. Because of the fundamental cost\u2014and $7.5 million might not seem like a lot to members on the other side of the House, but in the context of legal spending it\u2019s quite significant and we think that money could be better spent elsewhere in the system. So that was the purpose that we\u2019re trying to achieve. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022 data-id=\u00227fc40dd8388a478d9a212fd5445155ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227fc40dd8388a478d9a212fd5445155ff\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL (Green\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora. My questions refer back to the Minister\u2019s answers that he provided on clause 3A but were supposed to be for clause 4. I wanted to ask, firstly, whether the Minister could tell us more about who he understands to be preparing cultural reports? Because I didn\u2019t get an answer to that. The Minister spoke specifically about Harry Tam preparing cultural reports, so my question is around understanding why that\u2019s a problem. Why is it a problem that somebody who understands the cultural backgrounds that a lot of people who are being sentenced have experienced\u2014whether they\u2019re born into gang wh\u0101nau. I would remind the Minister, you don\u2019t get to choose which family you\u2019re born into. If you\u2019re born into a gang wh\u0101nau, well, there\u2019s nothing you can do about that. So I want to understand why is it a problem that Harry Tam is trying to make sure that people have more reasonable and more effective sentences that actually address the cause of the crime, as opposed to somebody creating these reports who has no concept, no reality, of what a majority of people who are incarcerated go through and what their backgrounds and upbringings look like. So what\u2019s the problem with that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EThe reason I want to know that too is because I\u2019ve heard senior members of this Government talking a lot about Harry Tam, and it seems to me like there\u2019s a real beef with him as an individual. To me, this bill is consistent with this Government\u2019s approach to cracking down on gangs, but not actually speaking to the people who have mana in that area. You can talk to people who are leaders in that space who have been helpful in achieving the goals of this House. You look at the influential gang leaders who supported the Government in making sure that more members of their community were vaccinated during the COVID-19 lockdown. You can look at the woman chapter of the Mongrel Mob, who are working to address violence that has happened through the State system and addressing those. There\u2019s a whole lot of good stuff that is also happening, and you could talk to them and ask them whether they think that some of these rules will actually be effective. Because you can\u2019t make rules about people and expect them to follow those rules without actually talking to them in the first place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EMy third question was just repeating the question that Willow-Jean asked around the accreditation system and whether you considered whether there could be a system whereby particular people were able to prepare these section 27 reports, as opposed to just throwing the baby out with the bathwater altogether.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003ESomething else that you mentioned in one of your answers was that section 27 cultural reports are a very small part of the legal aid distribution. I wanted to understand a bit more why it\u2019s being targeted under urgency. Is it because those reports are ones which support minority communities? Because it seems like this Government\u2019s got legislation going through this week that targets gang members, again. That\u2019s 8,000 in our country\u20148,000 people out of 5 million people. Again, this is a bill that targets a very small portion of the legal aid fund, and what I\u2019m trying to understand is what is the rationale behind your approach to law and order when it affects such a small number of people? Particularly when the small number of people that are impacted are minority communities\u2014communities that are already overrepresented in our justice system: M\u0101ori, Pacific people, poor people, and people who are born into gangs or are in gangs. Those are the people who are being targeted by these law and order moves. So those are my questions and I hope that you\u2019ll be able to address them. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u002283b17a7127c4444eac3c2f015a1f9754\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283b17a7127c4444eac3c2f015a1f9754\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Look, the only thing I\u2019d say to that member is, of course, M\u0101ori are disproportionately victims of crime as well, and they have as much interest as anybody else in society of ensuring that we restore law and order and that there are consequences for serious crime, and that people are held to account for their actions, because everybody in New Zealand has an equal interest in ensuring that we are able to live in a peaceful and safe community. So I don\u2019t accept that different groups in society don\u2019t have an interest in ensuring that we live safely and peacefully in our communities. In so far as this bill has an impact on any particular group of New Zealanders, it certainly is aimed to benefit all New Zealanders. So that is our focus there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022cdb30f3f9b1c439eae4131979c0fae68\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cdb30f3f9b1c439eae4131979c0fae68\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is suspended for dinner and will resume at 7.30.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00228efb301813ec4b9bb8cfb2906d586053\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228efb301813ec4b9bb8cfb2906d586053\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the committee is resumed. We are resuming debate on clause 4, the amendment to section 99 of the principal Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u002233880a44e8eb4ca8b333a44be59076a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002233880a44e8eb4ca8b333a44be59076a3\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and I must say it\u2019s a real privilege to be spokesperson for justice in the Labour Party and be able to speak on this. I saw my friends on the other side of the Chamber leap up, and I do hope they\u2019ll have substantive contributions to make on this, because I\u2019d be interested in the views of some of the backbenchers, who probably are struggling with some of the policies of this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EBut I hope for an extended debate, because this bill, which is an important bill, has not been to select committee, and so the committee hasn\u2019t had the opportunity to fully hear and consider the views of the many interest groups that would submit on it. One of those interest groups is the New Zealand Law Society. I would invite the Minister of Justice to consider what the New Zealand Law Society had to say on this bill and to respond directly to the point that it made. I won\u2019t take long for this call, because I think it\u2019s entirely appropriate for the Minister\u2014because his officials can\u2019t do what they would usually do in the select committee and go through a submission, analyse it, capture its essence, give options, respond to it, let the select committee decide which way to go and then present it back to this House. That all has to happen in the course of the next two or three hours here today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo the New Zealand Law Society\u2014the president, Frazer Barton, was very clear in their submission that they saw this as restricting access to justice for people who couldn\u2019t afford these reports. And in the statement\u2014because they issued a statement\u2014that was made, he was very clear that this fundamentally undermined human rights in terms of equal treatment before the law. So, Minister, I say to you that the submission of the Law Society is that this results in unequal treatment before the law, it\u2019s a breach of human rights, and it impedes access to justice for those who cannot afford these section 27 reports. What do you say to the Law Society?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u0022111dab0026f043bf8de9d1565442cd5c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022111dab0026f043bf8de9d1565442cd5c\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Was that a bluff attempt to stand up, Minister, was it? Or are you actually going to engage in answering the questions? Because you were about to let it go to a closure motion. Yet, in earlier contributions, the Minister had disregarded points and questions that we were asking, saying that he would address them when we got to the substantive section, which, in case he isn\u2019t aware, is this one. So now is the time for you to answer all of those questions that we asked earlier, which you didn\u2019t address in the title clause, and it was deemed to be frivolous\u2014the title or whatever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI did jump to my feet because I could see that the Minister did a fake attempt to stand up and answer and actually invited a closure motion from the other side. Now I\u2019ll get on to my actual contribution and the point that I wanted to make.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a05d5db3c152417186f2578390c1dd70\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Got that off your chest?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f81c4723cfd4e4ebc85bdfde6cfe64f\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, would you like to answer the questions, and then I could quite happily carry on from that? No? OK. You know, that is the point of the committee stage\u2014just checking\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2ab66e4287a49c5b6d38ec38349e6d4\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: Get to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edab53c6088c49e5b507f325f7ea4ef3\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: Excuse me?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ac1bd7a938c4495808592888f810737\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: I said, \u201CGet to the bill.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c16dc7389d0c40b6b071e333cc9917d1\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: Get to the bill? Did you think that that was not a fair comment about what just happened there? Hmm. Anyway, Madam Chair, we do look forward to some engagement with the Minister on the details around what this bill is proposing to do, and I hope that we are going to get some of that engagement tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI want to start with what we have heard the Minister describe as just a small change, just a small area within the legal aid system. The Minister said that in an earlier contribution, but I think that it is important that the committee understands the profound impact of this so-called small change of defunding section 27 cultural reports. My question to the Minister is\u2014this is my first question of many\u2014can he tell me how this bill, this amendment, is meeting our international obligations? I have read the regulatory impact statement and the disclosure statement, and in there it says they cannot see how this bill is actually meeting our international obligations. Has the Minister read the advice? Does he understand that? And can he, please, tell us how his change is meeting our international obligations and whether or not he\u2019s concerned that we may be in breach of those and not meeting those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u002286f47bc1ba4e4800891cefbf62e7b0f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002286f47bc1ba4e4800891cefbf62e7b0f5\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. Thank you, and I can assure the member, Willow-Jean Prime, I have read the documents. Secondly, the previous member asked around how this bill affects access to justice and New Zealand Bill of Rights Act issues. Now, the difficulty is, of course, that we had a period of 15 or so\u2014maybe 13 or 14\u2014years when the legislation was passed and people didn\u2019t have access to legal aid for writing these reports. I don\u2019t think people said there was no access to justice or that we were failing the Bill of Rights. People had every opportunity to get a lawyer through the legal aid system if they needed to, and have access to a lawyer conducting their defence. None of that is being taken away by this legislation. What is being dealt with by this legislation is an additional cottage industry that had developed since 2017 and was gathering great momentum and speed with each passing year and costing more and more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ENow, it\u2019s quite right and appropriate for the Law Society to make some observations on that. With respect to them, I don\u2019t agree with their conclusions, and so the Government has made it clear that we were going to cease funding for this particular element of the defence spending, and it was well signalled. I think most New Zealanders would appreciate this focus on making sure that money in the legal aid system, which is under pressure generally\u2014as every element of Government spending is under pressure given the deficits that we\u2019ve faced for a long period of time and the very big increase in debt that this country has taken on in the last six years. I think everybody appreciates the need for careful spending, and this is one element of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022 data-id=\u00229dfc6ba435b74f96ba4f151b785641f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229dfc6ba435b74f96ba4f151b785641f1\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. This is my first opportunity to speak on this issue in the House and, certainly, I look across at our colleagues opposite and I do wonder about your past and your past misdeeds, perhaps, and your misspent youth. I can tell that some of you had fun, and perhaps\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3f1154c49ee468b803945c00762c786\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s not referring to the Chairperson, is he?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223120b653d3a446559d2f3ec3d23c2e72\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry. To the Minister of Justice: some of your colleagues, perhaps, Minister, did have a bit of a misspent youth. I\u2019m wondering about the need for tailored sentencing. Because, essentially, if we take everyone as simply a facsimile of everyone else, we cannot help people adjust to a life out of crime, or a life where they may become a parliamentarian\u2014a life where they may live a good life and pass good legislation. Isn\u2019t tailored sentencing to prevent reoffending good for victims of crime because of the reduced likelihood of reoffending? If we think how people have been able to turn their lives around, why would we not give them a chance? Why would we not look at the challenges that they\u2019ve faced and start tailoring something to meet the requirement to reintegrate them into society? Why would we not do better than what is proposed here today?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003ESo, for the Minister, I would like an answer, please: isn\u2019t tailored sentencing to prevent reoffending good for victims of crime because of the reduced likelihood of reoffending? If the Minister could respond to that, please, and give us some insight into his thinking on this matter, I\u2019d really appreciate it, because it really does matter that we keep people out of prison, that we don\u2019t increase the prison population. It really does matter that we have people who are contributing members of society and are able to fix things that they may have done in their past. They might have\u2014I don\u2019t know; I don\u2019t know what the Minister\u2019s colleagues may have done. I don\u2019t need to know, because they\u2019ve made good, and we want everyone to make good. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u002249dc632c391c404295d18c4fffaba13a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E Very happy to answer the member Scott Willis\u2019 question, and thoughtful question. The first point I\u2019d make, of course, is that this bill does not do away with the ability of the justice system and judges in sentencing to take into account\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002249dc632c391c404295d18c4fffaba13a\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice): \u003C/span\u003Ethe background of offenders; there are many opportunities\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d31adba99dec41c4b21e68d0f5370fab\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: For those that can afford it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272a1b0bca91c4c7b8bec53d7f10f7b42\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014in the Sentencing Act\u2014no, not just for those who can afford it\u2014and throughout the justice system for people to take into account the background of the offenders, and that is appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EWe also, of course, share the desire of everybody in this House to improve the chances of people rehabilitating themselves and getting back into a productive life. For example, that is one of the reasons why my colleague the Hon Mark Mitchell this week announced the fact that this Government will be ensuring that prisoners on remand will have access to rehabilitation programmes, so there are many ways in which society and Government encourages people to rehabilitate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EWhat the issue is in this legislation is not taking any of that away, not removing any focus on the need for the sentencing judge to have access to the background of offenders, or the desire to rehabilitate; it is dealing with a particular little cottage industry that has developed in relation to these section 27 reports that we needed to deal with, and that\u2019s what was set out to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9fc2f6ae3c1488082cab4391027e5a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9fc2f6ae3c1488082cab4391027e5a3\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you to the Minister for explaining that, because it goes right to the point that I\u2019d like to make, and maybe he could enlighten us. The bit that puzzles me is that in\u2014it\u2019s not called the regulatory impact statement now; oh, it is\u2014the regulatory impact statement on this bill, the officials from the Ministry of Justice have identified five options, and what they consider is that they recommend option four, which is to introduce an accreditation system for section 27 report writers, to be the preferred option. So that was seen, when they weighed all of those options up, to meet the Government\u2019s requirement to curtail cost but also to maintain the access to justice, which is also important, as identified by the analysis undertaken for the regulatory impact statement. The advice under option four says that \u201CWhilst implementation costs would be greater, this option best satisfies the criteria of producing consistent and fair outcomes for regulated parties and of consistency with existing regulatory frameworks. A system of accredited report writers would improve the quality of reports. This, in turn, would be of greater benefit to judges using the reports, and would be fairer to offenders who rely on the reports to present their circumstances to the court.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI\u2019m interested, I say to the Minister, as to why\u2014as in paragraph 48 of the regulatory impact statement\u2014the Government directed officials to option two. The Government directed officials to ignore their own advice on removing the ability to fund the cost of section 27 reports from the Legal Services Act 2011 and to go ahead and remove the discretion of the commissioner to improve funding for this purpose. So my question, really, is that I wanted to understand from the Minister the rationale of pushing this through in urgency, without anybody affected having the opportunity to make comment and without paying attention to any of the detailed analysis provided by the regulatory impact statement, and to simply direct an outcome without what appears to be any consultation at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIf the Minister just replies with \u201CIt\u2019s in our 100-day plan.\u201D, I\u2019m sorry, but that\u2019s actually not good enough. I want to know what the reason is. I don\u2019t want to know that \u201CWe went and knocked on some doors during the election, and everybody said \u2018cost of living\u2019 and \u2018We want to restore law and order to New Zealand.\u2019\u00A0\u201D\u2014that\u2019s great; we\u2019ve heard that. We want to know, and I think New Zealanders deserve to know, that if this is being pushed through under urgency, if the advice of the officials who know quite a bit about this area is being completely ignored, and if the Government is directing an outcome and ignoring that advice\u2014I would love to know what the rationale is, what the thinking is, and what the reasons are for this direction to take away the legal rights of people to have their backgrounds heard as part of their sentencing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u002224b59de61368461e8f76939e27e6ad51\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002224b59de61368461e8f76939e27e6ad51\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E The member is very smart and has worked out that the officials didn\u2019t agree with this policy\u2014and that happens from time to time\u2014and the difference is that the Ministry of Justice officials were not the ones who were elected in this Government. So the primary reason why the Government has pressed ahead with this policy is that we campaigned on it, and the people expect us to do what we said we\u2019re going to do. That is a pretty basic democratic principle: you go and campaign on something, you say you\u2019re going to do it, and when you get elected, you actually do it. So that\u2019s what we\u2019ve set out to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not a question of ignoring the advice of officials\u2014we\u2019ve read the advice and we considered it\u2014but we didn\u2019t decide that we wanted to go down the route of regulating the report writers and having a little team of officials running around and working out who is qualified to write such things. Should they be a sociologist, for example, opining on these matters, or do you need a history degree to do it, and how long you should be doing it for and what you should be covering\u2014all that just seemed to us to be a fraught and unnecessarily complicated and expensive business. So that\u2019s why we stuck with our intention, which is to take the funding away from these particular reports, recognising\u2014recognising\u2014that there are many opportunities for people\u2019s backgrounds to be considered in the sentencing context. The original intention of this piece of legislation was for people to give brief oral accounts in the court\u2014generally, family members\u2014and for that to be considered, and there is nothing stopping that from happening. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u002239edd28c1aa44911952f028aa3b4b7fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239edd28c1aa44911952f028aa3b4b7fb\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I have a very short point, and I\u2019m hoping the Minister will respond to it directly, because he has said there are other avenues in which this kind of information can come before the courts. We know that when a prisoner is put into the corrections system that reports are prepared by the Department of Corrections. I understand that the Department of Corrections has resolved that it will not provide its reports for sentencing in substitution of these section 27 reports. Is it the case that corrections reports, prepared when people are convicted but before sentenced\u2014is it the case that corrections is no longer going to provide those reports to the court as, essentially, section 27 reports? Is the Minister prepared to respond to that now, otherwise I\u2019ll proceed. Nope? Well, perhaps you could take some advice on that because it\u2019s an important point. Because one of the very arguments you\u2019ve made is that there is other information through other avenues, such as corrections reports, which will fill the void for poor people who can\u2019t have these reports.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe other point is, I just do want to say there\u2019s a number of Amendment Papers, and I will get to those, but, still, I\u2019m kind of standing in the shoes of submitters who would submit to the select committee. The New Zealand Bar Association\u2014so that is the association of litigation lawyers and barristers\u2014has been very clear here that they are of the view that because this will lead to less informed sentencing decisions, the quality of sentences will be lower. And the knock-on effect of that is higher rates of reoffending. So\u00A0that\u2019s the first thing: how does the Minister address the fact that our preeminent association of litigation lawyers is saying that this will lead to higher rates of reoffending.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe other point\u2014and this is not about the quantity of the sentence but the quality of the sentence. Because, with these reports, the judge can look at, for example, family circumstances\u2014whether the home or mum\u2019s home or uncle\u2019s home is a suitable house for home detention. Whether it\u2019s a kind of safe place or whether it\u2019s not safe and is likely to have unsavoury influence. Of course, we know that if someone doesn\u2019t go into prison and they go into a good residence for home detention, they\u2019re much more likely not to reoffend and more able to effectively engage in rehabilitation as part of that sentence because they don\u2019t have to use the prison system; they can use, essentially, the civilian system of psychologists, alcohol and drug treatment, all of those kinds of things. So\u00A0rehabilitation without these reports becomes more challenging. So I\u2019m essentially the mouthpiece for the Bar Association\u2014that\u2019s the view of the Bar Association.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIf this was a select committee, and you\u2019re standing in the shoes of your officials, Minister, what do you say to that? How do we fix this piece of legislation? Ultimately, the sum total of the Bar Association\u2019s statement on this is that we\u2019re making the life of judges harder. That it\u2019s more difficult for them to do the job they want to do, which is to impose an appropriate sentence\u2014what that Minister clearly wants\u2014which is to mark out the offence appropriately as beyond the realms of what is socially and legally acceptable in society and striking the right balance with rehabilitation and reintegration. Now, that\u2019s the job of a judge. It\u2019s a hard job. It\u2019s a job that they need every tool at their disposal. And the Bar Association is saying to you, Minister, \u201CYou\u2019re taking away\u2014in some of these cases, for poor people\u2014one of the most important tools.\u201D So what do you say to that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EAnd seeing as you didn\u2019t stand up before, I will preface that what I want to talk about next is the role of the information about victims in here. And if the Minister wants to stand up and respond to what I\u2019ve said already\u2014I\u2019ll pause there, but the Minister doesn\u2019t seem to want to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo I do want to then move on and, with some further time, talk about my Amendment Paper H, which is on the Table, if anyone wants to read it. I\u2019m sure the Minister\u2019s looked at it, but it does talk about the function of victims or information about victims in this context, because this is at the heart of what the Government is talking about: making the criminal justice approach victim-centric. So what my Amendment Paper does is it suggests that reports about the victim in the context of the offending should be put before the court and should be funded by legal aid\u2014so a report about the victim context.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ECan I just say, we often think in terms of crime as stranger crime. The idea that we\u2019re burgled by someone we don\u2019t know, or a sexual offender is a stranger who prowls in the park. Well, we know\u2014and I was, in fact, at Rolleston Prison at their sexual offending programme, visiting recently, and it was really interesting to hear that that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3421536f5064addbd927ecc24d957e9\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: Getting off track here. Get to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb3892d183c347959908ef1675698a44\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry, Mr van de Molen?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cbbfdfe37fe4b50aa53841413fe0b0f\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: Get to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e0d38234d28468e91333b6baf8ffce8\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: It was very interesting to hear that, in fact, stranger crime is extremely rare. The relationship between the victim and the offender is an important part of the sentencing process, and knowing what\u2019s happened subsequent to the offending, knowing whether the offender has recognised the magnitude of their wrongdoing, whether, if appropriate, they have made some amends or sought to have some kind of reconciliation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EOf course, one of our most serious plagues is domestic violence. And we know there that someone who recognises the harm they\u2019re causing and wants to work on stopping that kind of behaviour and healing the wounds that it\u2019s causing in a family is really important. Now, if a section 27 report can say not only just what is the offending but what is the network of relationships between the actual victim\u2014that is to say, the person who, perhaps, has been assaulted in a domestic violence situation\u2014and the offender and the network of harm: the children, the wider family, all of those things, that information is of critical importance. So what my Amendment Paper H says is, \u201CLook, OK, you\u2019ve taken a point of view in respect of these reports, but let\u2019s carve out this most valuable information which gives victims a greater voice and makes the sentencing process more victim-centric.\u201D Now, this is utterly consistent with the Government\u2019s position in respect of shifting the needle towards victims, and I endorse that. I think we do need to always have a clear eye on the impact on victims, the voice of victims, the right of victims to be properly heard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s counterintuitive that the bill before the House is removing one part of a victim\u2019s voice. I\u2019m not going to pretend it doesn\u2019t exist, because there\u2019s such a thing as a victim impact statement, but you\u2019ve got to remember what a victim impact is\u2014the prosecution, essentially, taking from the victim what effect it had on them. It\u2019s quite different to say, \u201CWhat is the network of relationships? What has the offender done since the offending? What does the future look like in terms of your relationship with the offender?\u201D And we love to think in black and white\u2014we default to black and white\u2014but I think we need to recognise that in much criminal offending, there is a very large world of grey where the offender and the victim are often in an intimate relationship, or even if they\u2019re not there, they\u2019re in some kind of family relationship, they\u2019re members of the same wh\u0101nau and they\u2019re going to have to learn to live together, at least at some time in the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, I\u2019d ask you to carefully consider that Amendment Paper. It\u2019s not trivial. It was carefully thought out. It\u2019s about victims, and I hope you will support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u00220e786bcba30142ab80a082d410338b6c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e786bcba30142ab80a082d410338b6c\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. This is my first opportunity to take a call on this bill, on what is the substantive clause\u2014clause 4. So I have a few questions for the Minister in relation to this bill, and I also want to propose an amendment in clause 4; a new clause 4. I haven\u2019t tabled it yet but intend to, and I want to get the Minister\u2019s view on that as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EFirstly, just some questions for the Minister. For anyone who\u2019s ever had anything to do with the criminal justice system through going to the District Court or engaging with people who have been imprisoned, I think one of the most surprising things for people can be\u2014and I\u2019d be interested in the Minister\u2019s thoughts on this\u2014is the fact that when you go into a court, often you are confronted not with justice but in fact with the injustice that most members of our community suffer, and the reason that they\u2019ve actually arrived there is to do with a great number of things which have gone wrong in their lives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe reasoning for the removal of this particular funding, through legal aid, seems\u2014from what the Minister has said in answer to his previous questions\u2014to be based on because there was an industry surrounding these cultural reports and, therefore, we\u2019re going to remove that. Well, I would ask the Minister to take that logic to its conclusion. I imagine when the first courts of justice were first held and when barristers were paid through little pockets in the backs of their gowns, that people thought of that as a cottage industry or an industry that has sprung up in order to represent\u2014so that those charged with crimes can be represented in areas where they may not be able to articulate that for\u00A0themselves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ENow, I haven\u2019t had a long involvement in criminal law, but I did work as a duty solicitor for a short time, and I did that training in the District Court. From my experience, many offenders can\u2019t even read their own name, let alone create anything like the type of articulate report which would lead to fairer sentencing or more thoughtful sentencing for them. So, in that sense, I would like to know from the Minister who is this\u2014apart from saving money, which we can agree is important, apart from that, for what reason would the Minister take away the ability for people who can\u2019t afford cultural reports to be able to have their case made out in court? What is the justification for the substantive part of clause 4 which takes away the ability of people who have less to articulate what their background does and what they truly need? Because in my experience, that is the very thing that is most lacking in our courts: the ability for those who have little to speak up and be treated equally with those who have the ability to pay for and articulate and get the type of legal representation that they really need. So I\u2019d like the Minister to answer that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI did indicate in the beginning of my call that I have an amendment to make. The amendment is a review clause. We\u2019ve heard from a number of eminent organisations, who are not politically motivated, that there are serious concerns around access to justice in this bill. I ask the Minister: does he take that opposition seriously? If so, how does he respond to those organisations? If he is certain that this bill will not impact access to justice, why doesn\u2019t he agree with my proposed clause to include a review clause in this bill so that after six months the Government reviews, through the Ministry of Justice, the access to justice impact of the passage of this bill, and the Ministry of Justice reports to the Justice Committee who then reports back to the House on the impacts of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EIf it is correct that there aren\u2019t going to be grave injustices, as we fear, caused by this bill then I\u2019m sure that review in six months\u2019 time will indicate that. If the Minister does not agree with the review clause, how can he be so confident\u2014when he hasn\u2019t received the advice he would normally receive, when this is going through under urgency, when there\u2019s been no select committee process\u2014that in fact there won\u2019t be greater injustice caused by this bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u0022eddf06bca9cd49efb50d898b30516b8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eddf06bca9cd49efb50d898b30516b8e\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u002272209e9c73af49e2860de572d143ba77\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002272209e9c73af49e2860de572d143ba77\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m really pleased that you have given me this call, because I have sat and waited and waited and waited for about four or five contributions for the Minister of Justice to answer my question, which he never did. He never answered my question, so I will just refresh his memory and give him an opportunity, while I\u2019m making this contribution, to answer my question, which was around how this proposal fits with New Zealand\u2019s international commitments, such as the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination. In the departmental disclosure statement, it says, \u201CM\u0101ori are overrepresented in the criminal justice system and the funding change may exacerbate this disparity, as a higher proportion of M\u0101ori (and Pacific Peoples) offenders receive a legally aided section 27 report, compared [to] others.\u201D So what steps have been taken to determine whether this policy meets our international obligations under that convention? That was my question; that has not been answered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230a5f43a80df42af8a923ec00d3ab163\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Do you want me to answer it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f46a8e042a294b5599d7464153a6955d\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: No, I\u2019m not going to sit down; I\u2019m going to do my next contribution in case it doesn\u2019t come back to me again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EThe Minister talked about a cottage industry, and what I want to put to the Minister is, in terms of the cottage industry, there were other options put in the advice to him that could address some of the concerns that he has outlined with the creation of this cottage industry. The Defence Lawyers Association are imploring the Minister to consider other alternatives to what he is proposing, to defund section 27 reports. The Defence Lawyers Association said that \u201CIf there is any concern about the cost or the quality of the reports then we don\u2019t use those report writers, she said. Putting in place standards for [a report writer] was discussed as an alternative to cutting the funding\u201D entirely, and that this would be preferable if report writers were actually the concern\u2014and I\u2019ve heard the Minister say this\u2014but \u201CTo scrap the report funding completely is a retrograde step and if the information that was usually in those reports is presented to the courts it will blow out sentencing times and judge time[s]\u201D. So this is the Defence Lawyers Association saying that she does not think that the Government has \u201Canticipated the built-in costs associated with scrapping the funding.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ENow, the second point that I want to make on that one is that the Bar Association wants the Government \u201Cto consider the evidence about the impact of [the] reports since their use, [and] to determine whether the cost / benefit justifies their continuation, when assessed against reoffending rates and rehabilitation gains made.\u201D Will the Minister give due consideration to the submissions, to the points that the Defence Lawyers Association and the Bar Association are making about what could be a better way to address his concerns that this has created a cottage industry? The Government\u2019s proposal to simply defund this, as we have heard in the debate tonight, is creating access-to-justice issues, serious ones\u2014serious ones that disproportionately affect M\u0101ori in the criminal justice system. So my question to the Minister is: will you consider what the Bar Association has requested and what the Defence Lawyers Association has requested?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI want to make a different contribution about costs, because the Minister is saying that this is all about a cost-saving exercise. Now, in an earlier contribution, which the Minister said he would not address until he got to the substantive section\u2014which is now this substantive section\u2014I talked about the cost-benefit analysis of this report. Putting justice aside, which I think should be the primary consideration, this is a cost-saving exercise by this Government within the justice system, but what the evidence suggests to us is that there will be more costs to the justice system from this section 27 defunding proposal that we are debating tonight\u2014and they are significant costs. Is the Minister aware of the costs that he is creating for the justice system, and are they going to be more than the costs that you think that you are saving, let alone the impact that you are having on people? So what we have here is that the cost of funding section 27\u2014[Time expired]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd4836cce8b444d6803d22ecf78931e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd4836cce8b444d6803d22ecf78931e1\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I have a follow up, in the sense, to what the honourable member Willow-Jean Prime has been saying, further to the points made on the nature of circumstance into which people come. There but by the grace of God we go, in a sense; we don\u2019t choose the house or the circumstance we\u2019re born into or raised in\u2014the deprivation, the poverty, the potential violence and the trauma that is suffered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EMy question for the Minister of Justice relates to the opinion of judges on the matter of the value of the cultural reports, and I\u2019m hoping that he will take it into account. But, for context, we know that often the perpetrators of crime have been themselves the victims of crime. There\u2019s the beautiful Auden poem that goes,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EI and the public know\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EWhat all school children learn,\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EThose to whom evil is done\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EDo evil in return.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003ENow, being a victim of crime doesn\u2019t make you entitled to commit crime, any more than being the historic victim of genocide makes you entitled to commit genocide now. But is it right that we should understand the circumstances which have led people to where they are? Absolutely it is right. And if we want a right justice system, one that brings justice to victims as well as to those who in their history may have been victims, surely we need to know that history. Surely we need to know the context of that circumstance. And surely, for a judge to be able to rely on the basis of an expert report made by somebody who is a sociologist, perhaps, who knows the nature of how a person\u2019s circumstances impact the way they behave, who knows the cultural context and the familial context of a family\u2014surely it is more useful for a judge to have the confidence of the expertise in the author of that report, for them to be able to then take that into account in their application of sentencing, and appropriate sentencing, that can better enable appropriate application of rehabilitation. That rehabilitation is what is going to enable us to have a justice system that protects the victims, that minimises the number of victims in our society, which is surely the goal of our justice system, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003ESo when judges say that they are concerned\u2014sentencing judges have expressed that those cultural reports are helpful for them. Those sentencing judges say those cultural reports are helpful for them. Why is it the Minister does not take that into account?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EGetting simply a family member, which is absolutely valuable to hear from, but a family member, alone, who may not have the ability to articulate in a language or in means that are meaningful to a sentencing judge, the nature of the background of the person who has been sentenced\u2014then this is exactly why we do need expertise. This is exactly why, when any witness in a crime is called, the expertise of that witness is a major factor in the ability of the judge or the jury to take into account what has been presented in that information. And surely, on the same basis, the expertise of the author of that report is an important factor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EHere the judges are, telling us that those cultural reports are helpful for them. So how does the Minister take into account the importance of that cultural report? Because surely, if it is true that we want a society that is authentically trying to reduce the number of victims, we would want to break that cycle and we would want to understand that cycle. And surely understanding the cycle is the means to breaking it. That\u2019s my question to the Minister. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1c83fe5f38f40b3ba11601ba8e87cb0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1c83fe5f38f40b3ba11601ba8e87cb0\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. The question was raised tonight, how does it fit within our international agreements? My answer is that it fits very comfortably with our international agreements and our focus on ensuring that all New Zealanders get to live in a peaceful and safe society. As we\u2019ve outlined a number of times, M\u0101ori are more likely to be the victims of crime than other members of society, and so they benefit also from the wise use of limited legal aid resources and, you know, some discipline around the extent of discounts in sentencing, which is a broader issue that the Government is concerned about in order to have real consequences for crime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ENow, the issue that many of people have raised is the implication that the passing of this law will mean that, somehow, judges can no longer have any information around the background of offenders, which is complete nonsense. There are many opportunities for it, and\u2014apart from the last five years, where all this money has been spent on these cultural reports under the previous Government\u2014before, it didn\u2019t happen like that and the justice system didn\u2019t grind to a halt and people didn\u2019t have no access to justice for decades.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022748fa3166f8c48d2a544b95e534b4b61\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, they did. Listen to the inquiry on this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207e7cf4e43d74692bfc68e0107e182d0\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: They did? I just got correspondence from a former probation officer, who had retired before these section 27 reports came in, and he said, \u201CAs part of my work, I wrote numerous reports, including victim impact reports, emotional harm reports, reparation reports, pre-sentence reports. These reports were concise and comprehensive, including cultural aspects, family life, employment status, lifestyle, physical and mental health factors surrounding offending, expressions of remorse, and suitability for rehabilitation,\u201D and then went on to say, \u201CI fail to see\u00A0what more could be achieved by these very expensive, questionably credible, section\u00A027 reports.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e86058c6f1a34052b2b0586250b23f87\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: So this is one probation officer emailing you, versus the Law Society, M\u0101ori Law Society, Bar Association, Defence Lawyers Association?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e131a073a2254085b4883161a0ff735d\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes\u2014but the point is that there are many avenues in the legislation at the moment, through pre-sentencing reports and other reports, where people can understand the background of offenders. What we don\u2019t need is this little industry developing what I think the previous Minister in the other Government referred to as \u201Cmini theses\u201D being written about all sorts of detailed backgrounds, which is all very nice with the report writers but not helpful to the overall effectiveness of the regime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EWe listened to the many comments from many commentators on this topic, and we treat them all with the respect that they deserve. But the Government has determined that we will stick with our promise and we will deliver this legislation, because we think it\u2019s the right thing to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022 data-id=\u002253a134202362429e8c6f30c85ad96983\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4f894dc-da63-4b45-9c2a-c07b41a65e64\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253a134202362429e8c6f30c85ad96983\u0022\u003EDr VANESSA WEENINK (National\u2014Banks Peninsula):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u0022b29cd04f4c6c4bbbbf48f1fb9fc64535\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b29cd04f4c6c4bbbbf48f1fb9fc64535\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Being a nice person goes a long way! Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you very much for this opportunity. A couple of questions for the Minister, and I think it\u2019s important, especially given his most recent contribution about the advice that he\u2019s taking. The first question I have with respect to this particular clause\u2014because I\u2019ve had a read of section 99, and it does give actually quite wide-ranging powers\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260fafb5ddc2a426a97f881cdc61f0b7b\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Sorry to interrupt the member, but the clock hasn\u2019t been started.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227648ce9ce0c43ae9f2fc1f9823e6951\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019ve read section 99, had a read, and it\u2019s got some quite wide, sweeping powers. From my initial assessment, I question whether or not this particular amendment was actually required, in that there is quite a lot of discretion for the commissioner to be able to make denials for those who claim for reimbursement. There\u2019s quite a lot of power there for the commissioner to be able to, like I say, decline, deny\u2014and there was another word; it will come to me very shortly! So my question to the Minister is, then, why exactly this particular one seems to be giving an overreach of power for the commissioner. I think it\u2019s already got enough in there, and I question whether or not\u2014just a little bit of an understanding from the Minister about why he feels new subsection (ca) is needed, given that there\u2019s already lots of powers there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe next part is an extension of the Minister\u2019s contribution about the kind of advice that he has sought on these matters. It was raised in particular through urgency last week, but I want to put the same question to this Minister. In the consideration of this particular bill, can the Minister share with us the conversations that he\u2019s had with his M\u0101ori Cabinet colleagues? He\u2019s talked about how he\u2019s discussed it with a number of people. It\u2019s important just to understand who\u2019s representing the views of the M\u0101ori community to the Minister. So that one\u2019s a pretty straightforward question, and I\u2019m pretty confident the Minister will be able to come and stand to his feet and be able to answer that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThe second part is, given that the Minister has just read to us in the committee here an email from a former probation officer, if I recall the words correctly, this is where I\u2019d like to express my support for the proposed amendment by my colleague here, giving it a bit of time. Good policy allows for a chance to review. And so, with respect to the kind of feedback that we\u2019re looking for, I\u2019m sure the Waitangi Tribunal, who\u2019ve had challenges with the urgency and the legislation that has been passed through this House, would appreciate the opportunity to be able to look through and hear submissions from M\u0101ori communities on these matters, to continue to assist the Minister and this Government in making sure that we have good legislation moving forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThose questions to the Minister\u2014they\u2019re not overly difficult, but I\u2019d really be keen to hear, given this seems to be a running theme across a number of bills and a number of Ministers who have been in his position. If he can answer those questions, that would be much appreciated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u00224ab4bae9cb984f3692987410a8666e31\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ab4bae9cb984f3692987410a8666e31\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice): \u003C/span\u003EVery happy to answer the questions of the member. In terms of why legislate for this change, it is that the commissioner, who\u2019s responsible for the legal aid decisions, is statutorily independent. So for the Government to just send a message to him or her that we no longer want them to fund those reports would be to impinge upon that independence. So it\u2019s appropriate for legislation to state that as the will of the Parliament. That retains the commissioner\u2019s independence on everything else, apart from there\u2019s a list of exclusions and this has been added to the list of exclusions. That\u2019s why the legislation is required. In terms of the second question, what was the second question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e6691a9f11043a3b2208e1df9c769f6\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Consultation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268681f07daaf4245aa5cee1ad2fadf13\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Consultation\u2014well, yes, we had wide-ranging consultation with many M\u0101ori over this, and of course, as you would fully expect, like in every section of society, there\u2019s a wide divergence of views within many\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f5a7d7604a74f0c97c43a44b4c2f1f2\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Name one organisation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1b715ad678a4d459210fb06fe0002cf\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Winston Peters, for one, has a very strong view on these matters, and I\u2019ve had long conversations with him and many others. So there\u2019s a wide variety of opinions across many communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd30f44c6fd843eca92367e5bb4afe42\u0022\u003EHon Willie Jackson\u003C/span\u003E: Tell Winston to come down here!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f725d87c75646f2be61b40ed184cd6c\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: You asked a question, and I gave you an answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022 data-id=\u0022fabbd66e02ea4a86b4765ebcc458c043\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fabbd66e02ea4a86b4765ebcc458c043\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair\u2014thank you Madam, Chair. It\u2019s off the back of what the Minister just said, because, as we all know, the Minister\u2019s been very committed to partnership for some time\u2014he actually said that to me on a TV interview, and he a person who is fixed, in terms of partnership going forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003ESo the consultation\u2014I come back to this consultation question because I want to ask this Minister: apart from Winston Peters, good man that he is, which iwi has this Minister consulted with? Because it\u2019s really important\u2014we always thought he was from Ngati Porou, and I think the National Party thought he was from Ngati Porou too, also, for a while. It\u2019s really important that we bring, first of all, iwi into this because, at ground level, they are working with rangatahi, working with our young people. And this is incredibly important, and we\u2019ve seen the relationships they had with Oranga Tamariki\u2014they were exhibited in the last couple of years. We\u2019ve seen major partnerships with Tainui that\u2019ve happened, and our urban organisations. And I respect what the Minister\u2019s saying about Winston Peters, I absolutely do, but I really would like to know, given the Treaty of Waitangi obligations in this, that when the Minister spoke with our agency\u2014and I do say \u201Cour agency\u201D even though we\u2019re not in Government any more. Te Puni K\u014Dkiri (TPK) is a Government agency for all of us, for all M\u0101ori across the spectrum. National happen to be leading that at the moment and that\u2019s fine, but it\u2019s an agency that I trust\u2014it\u2019s an agency that I trust\u2014having overseen the agency for the previous three years and the officials in there. Now, they gave clear advice that they did not support this type of rushed legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003ESo given the fact that we\u2019re here, that TPK did not support the policy due to the constraints within the 100-day plan, I ask the Minister sincerely: which iwi did you consult, which organisations in the pan-tribal area did you consult? Given that I still chair our marae at Nga Whare Waatea in M\u0101ngere and I\u2019ve been the chairman there for a number of years\u2014I never ever stopped being the chair, because it\u2019s not anything I get paid for; it\u2019s just something that I oversee because it\u2019s been a lifelong job for me, working at ground level with our people and with our communities. So was there any consultation with our marae, Nga Whare Waatea Marae? Which, incidentally, bars gang patches\u2014I just thought I\u2019d add that in just so everyone knows that we know how to manage those types of problems. So was there consultation with Nga Whare Waatea Marae? Has there been consultation with the Waipareira Trust, which is the biggest, as the Minister will know, M\u0101ori provider in the country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4e308c473644feabe23b8b8b8a60b72\u0022\u003EJames Meager\u003C/span\u003E: Who runs that trust?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f317ee7d-f040-44ec-8f2f-ad0a9f206d75\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e19839f07bb46f5975913f82dc72c5e\u0022\u003EHon WILLIE JACKSON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we all know who runs that trust. I can\u2019t\u2014you know, we know on this side, I wouldn\u2019t imagine anyone on that side knows, because they don\u2019t know many M\u0101oris and they don\u2019t consult M\u0101oris, but they do consult Winston Peters. So I\u2019m bringing up the Waipareira Trust, a huge provider for us, that oversees Wh\u0101nau Ora contracts, our Manukau Urban M\u0101ori Authority\u2014we\u2019ve had major restorative justice panels that are in place\u2014Manurewa Marae, that is there, Papakura Marae. Any marae, Minister\u2014any marae. Please, put on the table tonight\u2014just name one marae or one iwi grouping who you\u2019ve consulted with, because that would then fulfil some of the Treaty of Waitangi obligations that, surely, any Government has to go through. What was the Treaty critique here? Surely it wasn\u2019t just talking with David Seymour and Winston Peters? Surely there must have been some grouping, some people with people\u2014and I\u2019m serious here. So I would like the Minister to stand and tell us, rather than this sort of casual response: \u201COh, we spoke with Winston.\u201D Please, Minister, you\u2019re better than that. I\u2019m sure you\u2019ll be able to tell us so that we can feel comfortable, because we know all the\u00A0M\u0101oris out there\u2014the groupings\u2014on this side. So if you could give us an example, we\u00A0would be comfortable. Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u00222091f98b71874a3b8b16bfad471bb9a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222091f98b71874a3b8b16bfad471bb9a6\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019d like to thank the member the Hon Willie Jackson for his lifelong service that he\u2019s referred to. And I do note that that member, of course, is famous for his comment that \u201Cdemocracy has changed\u201D in this country. Nobody was quite sure when they voted for the referendum where the democracy had changed, but, nevertheless, he stated that it had. As far as I know, the basic principle of a Government standing for an election and saying they\u2019re going to do something and then doing it still remains part of the democracy that I understand. Given the urgency with which we\u2019ve moved on this, there has not been formal consultation with different groups\u2014with the legal community or with iwi\u2014but it is something that we\u2019ve flagged very carefully and clearly in our election campaign. We said we\u2019re going to do it, and, lo\u00A0and behold, we are going to do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022 data-id=\u0022335820bd4f8d4ae7a5ed99c071a5cdfa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022335820bd4f8d4ae7a5ed99c071a5cdfa\u0022\u003EJAMES MEAGER (National\u2014Rangitata):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u00226949081090a34288a6760bfb53dfbf9b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226949081090a34288a6760bfb53dfbf9b\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Thank you for the opportunity. I\u2019ve got a couple of amendments that I would like to speak to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EFirst of all, I\u2019d like to speak in support of the amendment in the name of the Hon Dr Duncan Webb, and that\u2019s specific to enabling the victim\u2019s voice to still be carried through. So we appreciate that the Minister has made election promises to get rid of section 27 reports, but in those same election promises there was a real commitment made\u2014and it is on record\u2014that there needs to be a greater focus on victims. That was carried quite strongly and it\u2019s something that we agree on, on this side of the House. So it\u2019s a good point in common: that there\u2019s been some very specific words stated by key Ministers of this Government that there needs to be a focus away from offenders and on to the victims of crime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIn fact, there\u2019s even been statements made that the funding cuts made in areas like these section 27 reports will be transferred into funding more services for victims and more responsiveness for victims. So while I don\u2019t tend to agree with that transfer, we do support it. So we would be very interested to hear if the Minister is prepared to support the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s amendment that enables just those reports that include a victim\u2019s voice to be funded through legal aid in the section 27 reports.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThat goes to the heart of the whole idea of trying to stop people reoffending and to stop more victims being created in New Zealand. So it\u2019s really difficult to try and really comprehend, if you\u2019re focused on increasing victim voice\u2014if you\u2019re focused on reducing the numbers of victims in New Zealand\u2014why would you not agree to an amendment that enables the voice of the victim to be taken into consideration from all of those aspects and put before the court when the sentencing of that offender is being considered. So I would really encourage the Minister to take a good think about how we can do that, because we want to see better outcomes for victims as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe second amendment that I would like to speak to is in my name, and it\u2019s for a new clause that would enable\u2014in certain circumstances, when the judge thinks it necessary\u2014the court to order a section 27 report. So this hasn\u2019t been taken into consideration. It would provide it to be at the discretion of the judge, so if there are certain aspects of the case that is being heard before the courts; if the judge felt that a section 27 report would provide additional information that is necessary; and if that presiding officer can see that there is real financial obstacles to the person accused before the court, then the judge would be able to make an order for there to be legal aid funding for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThis may go some way towards curtailing the Minister\u2019s concerns around a cottage industry springing up and there being unnecessary use of section 27 reports. So it would strike that balance of being able to have all of the information available to a judge at sentencing, yet while still having some curtailing of the level of public spending happening in this area. If the judge had that discretion, then in those instances where the judge has information that the accused\u2014there are particular factors that haven\u2019t come to light and the judge considers that those factors are essential to enable the judge to be able to make an appropriate sentence that stops that person from reoffending; that stops more victims from being created in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThat, to me, sounds like a really sensible pathway forward, and I\u2019d be really interested to hear from the Minister if he\u2019s prepared to consider my amendment that would enable, at the discretion of a judge, a court order for the section 27 reports to be able to be funded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u002233e8eda7fd0e40e4b1e9b2235f07277c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002233e8eda7fd0e40e4b1e9b2235f07277c\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I see the friends on the other side of the Chamber are jumping up, but obviously there\u2019s a number of Amendment Papers that haven\u2019t yet been discussed. To date, we\u2019ve been discussing some of the general points. I do want to ask directly\u2014and I\u2019m happy to sit down if the Minister indicates he will answer this question, but it\u2019s the question about Corrections documents which have been prepared within the corrections system being used. The Minister has suggested that these wider documents can kind of be funnelled into the sentencing process, and my question was a very precise one: is it the case that Corrections have stopped preparing documents that can be used? Not as\u2014yes, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243d794410581477f952cfb75c47276ab\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: I have no information on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f3629ce18084205a24eb9425eef1bc5\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: OK. Thank you for that, Minister. If I may just continue, Madam Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022226d49d34e3c42bfb2ee7d2671a46390\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Mm-hmm.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222dcd59505ca4ff6a8e450a2e5e04abd\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the Minister for being so responsive on that. And that is the purpose of my Amendment Paper entitled \u201CE\u201D to make it absolutely clear that documents prepared for another purpose, including in the Department of Corrections, can be put in front of a judge for the purposes of section 27 so that you can get, you know, kind of double duty from those documents. But the Minister doesn\u2019t have any information on that so I\u2019m hopeful he\u2019ll support that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe other Amendment Paper that I\u2019d like to then talk about is my Amendment Paper\u2014and I think it\u2019s \u201CI\u201D, although the Clerk\u2019s handwriting is sometimes worse than mine!\u2014that\u2019s just to address the issues that the Minister has identified. It essentially says that these reports can\u2019t be legal-aid funded unless they have met a couple of criteria. One is they\u2019re less than $2,000, or such other sum as the commissioner sets, and it\u2019s provided by a person approved by the commissioner. This isn\u2019t some big regulation, this is pretty straightforward stuff. Legal-aid providers are approved by the commissioner, and there\u2019s absolutely no reason why the legal-aid commissioner can\u2019t simply\u2014on the basis of evidence\u2014you know, historical reports, the quality of the reports that they provided to date\u2014say, \u201CYou know what you\u2019re doing, and you don\u2019t.\u201D Or on the basis of perhaps a little bit of consultation with the Bar and judges: \u201CThese reports have been helpful to the court; those ones haven\u2019t.\u201D So that would be a very, very easy way to address much of the ill that the Minister has identified in these reports\u2014that they\u2019re too expensive and that they\u2019re not value for money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow that number in there\u2014$2,000\u2014well, it might be too much, who knows. The Minister, or the Legal Services Commissioner, who\u2019s independent from the Minister, as he rightly notes\u2014I see he\u2019s texting him now, so good on you. See what he thinks\u2014I\u2019m pretty sure he\u2019ll be happy with this. So perhaps that\u2019s a really useful\u2014unless he was tweeting, of course, because it\u2019s such a good idea he wants a bit of feedback! That\u2019ll be the most consultation the Minister\u2019s done so far on this bill, would be a good tweet. But anyway, so it\u2019s a very simple proposal but it does address the ills. And I know that sometimes in this House we get a bit positional and if the Labour Party puts it up, the National Party votes against it. Now look, it\u2019s not the approach we in the Labour Party take, we\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a793a0cf2b4c4def8fc92771e72ac989\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208091095acd24c3ebfd932993bf60db0\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, no. That\u2019s simply not true. You know we\u2019ve supported legislation that you have introduced into this House, and we would hope that there would be a little bit of reciprocity there, that you would look at these Amendment Papers\u2014we only saw this bill goodness knows when. So we have worked hard to come up with\u2014all of these are constructive, you know. Admittedly, the title ones, I didn\u2019t think I was going to get those through calling it the, you know, the \u201CBash the Poor\u201D\u2014I didn\u2019t call it that, but, you know, the \u201CLegal Services (Removing Access to Reports for Poor People) Amendment Act\u201D. It was a fair point, but these are serious amendments that\u2014and you\u2019ve got your official behind you, and I can see why they might not be too keen on this bill. But this is something that they can no doubt assist you with in saying, \u201CThat\u2019s a goodie; go with that. That Duncan Webb, he knows what he\u2019s talking about.\u201D So this one here is a good one, Amendment Paper I: cost of the report is less than $2,000, excluding GST, or such other sum as may be set by the commissioner from time to time; and the report is provided by a person or entity who was approved by the commissioner for that purpose. I recommend that one to the Minister. I\u2019d be interested to hear what he says.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022915b6f768f8540178cd7009182e9dca9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022915b6f768f8540178cd7009182e9dca9\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I have a quite simple and specific question for the Minister. There\u2019s a repeated pattern in the House that we find from the Government, and we heard it from the Minister this evening, which uses the argument that, because they won an election on it, therefore the legislation is good and solid. Now, I do not believe that the Minister seriously thinks that is a legitimate justice argument for this piece of legislation, because it utterly speaks to the tyranny of the majority. When we know, as the Minister has articulated, that M\u0101ori are more likely to be the victims of crime, and when we know that there are shameful statistics about the disproportionate and the unjust treatment of M\u0101ori in our justice system, such that we have prisons that have disproportionate representation of M\u0101ori, it would be very concerning that decisions that impacted the rightful justice applied to citizens that were not in the majority would be made simply by the dictate of the majority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003ESo I just wanted to get clear from the Minister that when he makes that argument he is not seriously suggesting that this House should accept that as a credible argument for a piece of justice legislation. Justice, by definition, must be outside the rule of the majority; that\u2019s why we have a bill of rights. That\u2019s why we have a justice system that says all of us are entitled to basic precepts of care and a right to a voice and a right to be heard\u2014habeas corpus, the likes, he knows well.  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EI\u2019m sure the Minister would welcome the opportunity to correct the misperception that may have been created by the suggestion that the majority can dictate how our justice system works, and particularly in a context of a Government that is so willing to articulate the overriding of Te Tiriti o Waitangi; so willing to say that it is prepared to take, potentially to a referendum, the question of whether we should uphold a constitutional commitment made in the founding of our country in 1840. That surely is something that the Minister would be concerned to clarify for the purpose of the House and the public, that they are not suggesting that the majority can decide this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EI\u2019m concerned to hear the response to Hon Willie Jackson when he said there was no consultation with iwi and there was none with justice experts. So you have not consulted with iwi; you have not consulted with justice experts. Are you saying that only by dint of the fact you campaigned and won an election, you are going to change this law to make it less just, in the opinion of this side of the House, certainly? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa9058bee25149b18437c078858c6f5e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa9058bee25149b18437c078858c6f5e\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (National\u2014Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022373686f564d64d1eaf6e725ae4c9ddcb\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, come on. No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u0022773791a7d67646ecbf1af993297eaef5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022773791a7d67646ecbf1af993297eaef5\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and I do apologise for my mouth having said what my brain was thinking there. It was probably not appropriate to preface your own decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EBut I do want to talk about my Amendment Paper G, which is about youth offending, because this is\u2014and the Minister for Children was talking about her initiatives today in the House, and it is a focus of this Government. There\u2019s nowhere where it\u2019s more important, because we know that the earlier the intervention and the highest quality intervention, the highest likelihood of there being a change of direction. So there are real concerns that when you get someone who\u2019s being sentenced for serious offending who is under the age of 18 years, that you\u2019ve really got to use every effort to make sure that all of the information is in front of the judge.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EOf course, we know for a fact that a young person, a person under the age of 18 years, isn\u2019t going to have their own means. It\u2019s unlikely that they\u2019re going to be employed in any high-paying role or that they\u2019ve got savings tucked away or anything of that nature. So my suggestion is that we make it clear that whilst this Government is going to defund these reports by and large, there\u2019s a carve-out, and there\u2019s a carve-out for kids, because anyone under the age of 18 years at law is a child. They can\u2019t vote; no change there. So\u00A0this is what this proposal would do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EWe know that those kind of wh\u0101nau connections are particularly important, and putting a child into a custodial setting, even though\u2014and I have been out to, on a different occasion, Christchurch Men\u2019s Prison, which has a youth wing, but it\u2019s still a prison, right? Call it what you like, but those 16- and 17-year-olds are in concrete cells, and they\u2019re in concrete cells with other young people who are serious offenders. It\u2019s not a great place to put yourself on a track towards building a meaningful life outside of crime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo really good information about family, about context, about background, if you can remember what it\u2019s for, it\u2019s not just\u2014and this is the really important thing. It\u2019s not just interesting background; it\u2019s about the triggers for the offending and how we can address that on the way forward. That nexus\u2014and Justice Whata has been very clear about the usefulness of these reports, that if they don\u2019t tie the offending to the context, they\u2019re not useful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EBut for a young person, that family context and the context of their wider network, their cultural background, what\u2019s happened to them in a family or other upbringing setting\u2014that is a critical importance as having a nexus with the offending. So if we just carve it out just for young people, so that where these things are the most valuable, they\u2019re preserved; where they\u2019re most deserved, they\u2019re preserved; and where they\u2019re most needed, they\u2019re preserved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, your Government\u2019s got a programme around youth offending\u2014serious youth offending in particular. You know that the previous Government put some good initiatives in place around youth offending with significant interventions. You\u2019ve got a Minister for Children who\u2019s talking about military academies, as well as, at the same time, today I see on the Beehive website, seeking further advice on serious youth offending. So here\u2019s an idea: let\u2019s keep one of the tools in the toolbox for judges so that we can help young people who do find themselves offending to mend their ways.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022346af05c36624e37aec77a7b4896483d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022346af05c36624e37aec77a7b4896483d\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. Just wanted to respond to the questions around urgency. Of course, most of the legislation in the justice space that the Government\u2019s going to be introducing will be going through the full select committee process, such as the gangs legislation coming up and the firearms changes, and that\u2019s appropriate that they should be considered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EBut ultimately, it is the majority of the Parliament that passes the legislation, and that member is part of a party that was part of the Government in the previous term with a clear majority that passed a whole lot of things against the wishes of a whole lot of people. That\u2019s just how the system works, and if you do it to the extent that the majority of New Zealanders aren\u2019t happy with the direction that you\u2019ve taken, you get thrown out. That\u2019s how our system works, and so that\u2019s called democratic accountability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003ESo in terms of getting this legislation through, it\u2019s worth noting that the change whereby legal aid was used to fund these reports was not the subject of consultation or legislation or any democratic process\u2014it just happened through a change of process. We are unwinding that, and we think it\u2019s a straightforward change that should be made swiftly, and that is why we\u2019re doing it in this way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022ffce88a9fcab41e88f15a9df1caa22cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ffce88a9fcab41e88f15a9df1caa22cf\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Thank you for the opportunity. I would like to ask the Minister a few questions, and it\u2019s really in relation to the lack of analysis that\u2019s been undertaken in terms of why this bill is taking place. We\u2019ve already heard those arguments around the regulatory impact statement and the fact that officials have provided some advice; that was ignored and they were directed to take an option. But Newsroom wrote an incredibly good article, and it\u2019s worth taking note of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EEmma Hatton has put together a great article which asks some additional questions on that. And it was a very thorough report. It points out quite rightly\u2014and the Minister might want to speak to the advice that they refer to, because it was in December last year that this report said there are going to be additional costs. So, overall, when we look at this, this will cost the taxpayer more than actually scrapping section 27 reports. When you look at the forecast\u2014and that\u2019s what\u2019s done in this article very well; they\u2019ve broken it right down\u2014for those currently serving a sentence of over two years, an additional 136 prison beds will be required; for those currently serving a sentence of two years in prison or less, an additional 120 beds will be required; and for those currently serving a sentence of home detention, 124 beds will be required. So the average cost of imprisonment being $193,000 a year\u2014it can be as high as nearly $5,000 a day for those super maximum extreme risk units\u2014that\u2019s about $1.8 million a year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI\u2019m interested to know: has the Minister taken this into account on top of the 6.5\u00A0percent budget cut that Corrections, Justice, and Courts are all having to find in their baseline? With promises such as these kinds of window dressing - type promises that the Government\u2019s doing, there clearly hasn\u2019t been adequate time to do that level of analysis, to say how much this is actually going to cost the taxpayer at the end of the day. And furthermore, how will these additional costs you\u2019re putting on the taxpayer be funded given the fact that all those departments that are now required to do this work\u2014how are they going to be able to do this with a 6.5 percent budget cut? I mean, some of that funding for Courts alone will mean that some of the administrative work just can\u2019t even be done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s in a cost of living crisis, and the Minister himself has said that the two key issues that he heard back at the election, when talking to people, was the cost of living and also law and order. So if the number one issue that came back after the election\u2014and that same argument that, when you\u2019re elected to do something, you need to do it. If it is the cost of living, why are we passing a bill under urgency that is going to increase the costs on taxpayers, that is going to increase the financial burden on taxpayers? What is the rationale for doing that in a cost of living crisis, if that was the number one issue that people wanted to know about? If New Zealanders don\u2019t get the opportunity to comment on this, if they don\u2019t have the right to submit at select committee or have their voices heard, how is it fair that they have to pay for something that looks flash in a sound bite, that gets a great tweet, that ticks a box on your 100-day plan? They\u2019re the ones who have to stump up and pay when you can\u2019t pay the bills, when your Budget doesn\u2019t meet the requirements. Because the long-term forecast of what this is going to cost the justice sector cluster is actually an increase to the amount that\u2019s already allocated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not rocket science that you can\u2019t reduce the budget of the justice cluster, increase the costs that are required to the justice sector, and then champion yourselves as heroes of the cost of living crisis. Something has got to give, and there needs to be some serious analysis done at some point. No doubt they\u2019re doing this now in the lead up to the Budget. But the Minister needs to come clean with New Zealanders and tell us what the real cost of this bill is to taxpayers. What is the actual cost that we\u2019re going to have to stump up? While a tweet looks good for a few seconds, and while it might be good to tick your box, the actual outcome for us as New Zealanders is increased costs to the justice sector. I\u2019ll\u00A0be very interested to hear how he plans to account for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022 data-id=\u0022967cb8241d784b66baa124ee2146c66e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022967cb8241d784b66baa124ee2146c66e\u0022\u003EDAVID MacLEOD (National\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002217c0d9400ed842849ec306bf9a6a35e7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022a240103a16ec4c9d8bff4500743e055d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a240103a16ec4c9d8bff4500743e055d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 4, to not limit the court from using any document prepared for another purpose for the purposes of section 27, be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224a480b60c64f462ba53e4dd910c94ed7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002261f1cbd21a9a45099c307bff35619e1a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261f1cbd21a9a45099c307bff35619e1a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 4, creating an exception for reports costing less than $2,000 and prepared by approved persons, be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224d05017ed551480a8cfed30b6e5839a8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022d572180a97204dd9974d7e85c89b0ff4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d572180a97204dd9974d7e85c89b0ff4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 4, creating an exception where the offender was under the age of 18 years, be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225313e6fc3cfa481c90d78b3fea790bd4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002229667335e9b240188f5b3fe47a33845c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002229667335e9b240188f5b3fe47a33845c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Dr Duncan Webb\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 4, excluding where the report provides information relating to the relationship between the victim of the offending and the offender, be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ffb0dee66fb44b5ea979772d84e6679c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002292ebc6d57b0f4a58ae3be4138db728b2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 4 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000662\u0022\u003EClause 4 agreed to. \u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022635f15063307445f9f57e5d2c861a8a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022635f15063307445f9f57e5d2c861a8a5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Ginny Andersen\u2019s tabled amendment inserting new clause 4B, proposing an amendment to the Sentencing Act 2002, is ruled out of order as proposing a substantive amendment to another Act, which would change the bill into an omnibus bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EThe Hon Ginny Andersen\u2019s tabled amendment inserting new clause 4B, inserting a new section 116A into the principal Act, is ruled out of order as being inconsistent with the principles and objects of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fc65ba7d0b564b07a0f7544fc012fa71\u0022\u003EClause 5  Schedule 1AA amended\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd7a2c8146344e72a7140eed24e4a2f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd7a2c8146344e72a7140eed24e4a2f4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to our final debate on clause 5. This is the debate on clause 5, amendment to Schedule 1AA of the principal Act, including the Schedule. The question is that clause 5 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u002277cc9ce7454a419288a3191fb066379e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002277cc9ce7454a419288a3191fb066379e\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E This may be largely mechanical in many ways, because what it appears to do is make sure that the rush that everyone\u2019s going to have in the next 14 days to get their legal aid applications in for these reports is managed in accordance with the rules, and that the commissioner, essentially, doesn\u2019t turn down applications which were made in good faith, not knowing that this was in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EAs we come to the final breaths of this part of the debate, I do want to say that it\u2019s disappointing that we didn\u2019t really get a chance to talk about all of the different submissions that would have been made. Certainly, today I have received messages from the disabled community, including the neurodiverse community, for whom these reports are very important. And it may well be that there will be cases where people who have disabilities, including what are, in essence, invisible disabilities, will now be making applications and trying to squeeze them in to this small 14-day window to make sure that their providers can, in fact, get paid for the work that they\u2019re going to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EWhilst we talked about commencement, in fact, it may well be that we need a little more flexibility in this new Part 3 which is inserted into Schedule 1AA, because there is going to be a considerable bottleneck of work for the commissioner\u2014or what, in fact, if you know how the organisation works, there\u2019s grants officers that will, in fact, be doing this work under delegated authority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo even though the clause applies simply before commencement, it may well be, and I wonder if the Minister would consider this, that a little more discretion is needed, because there may be people\u2014and I\u2019m looking at Willow-Jean Prime, who, obviously, is from Northland, where there are some more remote communities who, perhaps, the news doesn\u2019t travel quite so fast, where there might be a sole practitioner in some of these smaller towns. Of course, we all know what it\u2019s like to miss an email, and they may be merrily commissioning these reports or making arrangements for it, and it would be appropriate in those kinds of situations for the Legal Services Commissioner to say, \u201CWell, look, in all of the circumstances, it doesn\u2019t quite perhaps meet the exceptional threshold, but it\u2019s a reasonable excuse for not quite appreciating that.\u201D Because this is not the centrepiece of legal aid\u2014this is off to one side. Despite the Minister\u2019s protestations, this isn\u2019t kind of the main grist to the mill for a legal aid lawyer. And missing an email from the Legal Services Agency with an update on these reports is quite easily missed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo there\u2019s a really good argument that, in fact, what we need in new Part 3 of the Schedule is to say, \u201CThe commissioner can appropriately consider an application as if this wasn\u2019t passed where the conduct of the practitioner has been reasonable in all the circumstances.\u201D Or perhaps where the oversight or the commissioning of this report is excusable in the circumstances. It might be that you want a higher threshold\u2014I\u2019d suggest against it. Exceptional circumstances is always a kind of tricky phrase. A kind of negligent but not outrageous omission would strike me as something which would be perfectly reasonable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EBut, as I\u2019ve said, I\u2019m disappointed that we haven\u2019t had a chance to go over some of the other people who have come to me and said, \u201CI\u2019d like my voice heard on this bill.\u201D I do want to again mention the disabled community and the fact that the neurodiverse community often find themselves in the court. And we know that neurodiverse people are overrepresented in our prisons, and these reports are really important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282cb6e2b760e45e48b2b46cf343d4064\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Dr Webb, this is simply about transition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa1dc73b994448368e040655387e9341\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, well, these people also will be affected by the transition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022147c97861f7f4a0981745e31e9e3aedd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I accept that, but please keep your message regarding them to the transition itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277e77ec6ba2840d4bf23367761cf38c6\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Well, thank you for your guidance, Madam Chair, but given that this has been rushed through the House without select committee process, I\u2019m simply trying to make sure that my constituents and the constituents of all New Zealand\u2019s voices are heard, both in respect of this new Part 3, which is important, but the transition is relevant and I suggest that a greater discretion is needed in respect of it. Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0aa9c48d759401ba25d09b5caf6d968\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0aa9c48d759401ba25d09b5caf6d968\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Well, when I read this through, this clause 5 of the bill, it seemed to me that officials hadn\u2019t been listened to right throughout the process. This was kind of like the ameliorating last hope of trying to have some kind of a transition from where these were funded through legal aid and then, suddenly, they\u2019re not. There\u2019s going to be a whole lot of different stages of legal process, of people undertaking work, and you\u2019ve got a very short period of time. And I do think that this is going to cause some real hiccups in the justice system over the next couple of months, and we will see those reports, we will receive letters. I hope they take the time to write to the Minister of Justice, because just simply having\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220519d908b305441ca36139b1f393cc43\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Hon Andersen, the questions in this part are to the Minister, not to the officials, so please don\u2019t\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251462b4bb33c494f80f5c6b049933108\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry. I said \u201Cto the Minister\u201D you may want to ask it, so\u2014the Minister may want to be very clear on the fact that if those people who have undertaken work, who have had that promise of work to be done\u2014they will be at varying stages of that through the process. And so how that impacts upon someone who\u2019s accused, how that impacts upon the victim, is going to be very interesting. It really concerns me that there has not been sufficient time for such a significant change to enable that transition to take place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThere is really a key part here, that there is one part in the Schedule that\u2019s providing for the transition. It clearly states in clause 7(1) of the Schedule that \u201Cif, before commencement,\u2014(a) the lead provider has obtained the Commissioner\u2019s approval to incur a disbursement as part of a \u2026 legal aid;\u201D. But if it\u2019s not been approved or declined, a payment claim for respective legal aid services\u2014my advice is that includes disbursement. I think in this particular area, the Minister should give consideration to a longer transitional period, because that short period of time to have that transition is insufficient for the legal profession.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ENo doubt there will be much more heard about this over the coming weeks, when the bill comes into force, when it receives the Royal assent, when a whole lot of people figure out this has happened\u2014because they haven\u2019t been notified and there\u2019s no communications provided to lawyers, to victims, to offenders. They will have to find out through simply turning up at court and finding out that this is no longer occurring. To me, that\u2019s not fair. That\u2019s not fair to New Zealanders who have gone into a process thinking that this was a clear pathway, and that pathway has been cut off without clear communication.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo if the Minister would like to enlighten us\u2014and my question to him is: what communications, whether through his own office or through the Ministry of Justice, have been undertaken in order to communicate that section 27 reports will no longer be funded? Where is this, how is this being communicated to the legal fraternity, to victims, to those people who are defence lawyers, to those people who are working in the courtrooms? What is the communications plan that has been put in is under way presently\u2014to make sure that when you stop this, when it suddenly ceases to exist in 14 days\u2019 time from the date of Royal assent\u2014how can we be reassured that there has been some sort of a communications effort, so that all those people affected by this law change have in fact had the opportunity to turn their minds to it and prepare?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u00221edbab591eaf489fb55f5959aa9cdf70\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221edbab591eaf489fb55f5959aa9cdf70\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I have a short contribution to make on what is quite a technical part of the bill; these last transitional provisions in this new schedule inserted as a result of clause 5. So my questions are to the Minister of Justice: this bill is obviously passing through under urgency and we\u2019re early in the year, and there\u2019s a specific drafting mechanism, which is included in new Part 3 inserted into Schedule 1AA, which bolds the year \u201C2024\u201D. That is only, as far as I\u2019m aware, used in bills in the House; it\u2019s not something that appears in legislation once it\u2019s passed. If the Minister could enlighten us as to why it\u2019s bolded when it\u2019s obviously\u2014because of the Minister\u2019s decision\u2014going to be passed this year? Does the Minister, in fact, think that there could be some delay at some stage or introduce further amendments?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c3681bc093f4f22a4e65c0d1d4cc8ca\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: It sounds like Tim van de Molen wants a call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2dc4f64c6b14ff1964019ef2ce45e3a\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: It does sound like it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f04c11d673740949b7db131247e002e\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: Is the member happy with the size of the font?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ecce722313d4737a27bad8fb388886a\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, it\u2019s quite interesting Mr van de Molen seems to have quite a lot to say on this bill but hasn\u2019t managed to take a call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c40bb5c06fc44979ae85422567964c04\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: I did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c75e679fe104458981b24567974e9ef9\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, not in the hour and a half since I\u2019ve been in the Chamber. As you\u2019ll be aware, the relevance to the question is a job for the Chair, which we have a very competent one in place, Mr van de Molen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EAnyway, my second question, which is also on technical matter, is: in new Part 3 inserted into Schedule 1AA, in clause 7, which has two subclauses (1) and (2)\u2014in subclause (2) of clause 7, there is a provision for, essentially, claims that have been put before the commissioner but they haven\u2019t yet been approved or deferred or declined, so it\u2019s only relevant for a very short period of time, as I understand it as I read it. I\u2019m happy to be corrected by the Minister, and I hope he does have the opportunity to respond to these questions. In that small two-week period\u2014because there is a two-week period prior to commencement but after the Act receives its Royal assent\u2014subclause (2) of clause 7 of this provision allows the commissioner to approve and decline, which I understand. So, obviously, if the law is not yet enacted, the spending can still be approved\u2014that\u2019s totally logical. It can also be declined\u2014that is within the Commissioner\u2019s discretion. But what does happen when it\u2019s deferred? Surely it cannot, in good faith and good conscience, be deferred, because if it is deferred and the Act does then commence during that period of deferral, then the claim would automatically not be able to be fulfilled because the law would have come into place. So why is \u201Cdefer\u201D there? And if \u201Cdefer\u201D is there, is there some requirement for that deferral to be resolved prior to the commencement of this bill? So I would like an answer for that, please, if the Minister wouldn\u2019t mind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u002219cf7c7aeb7049a3830187b2ecee5ea5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002219cf7c7aeb7049a3830187b2ecee5ea5\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Well, thank you, Madam Chair. Just in terms of the question around the use of 2024, I don\u2019t understand the point the member is making. So perhaps\u2014it is 2024; that is the year we\u2019re in and so that\u2019s the year that we\u2019re referring to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227514a40171134d83a51c4e923e1f0b3e\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s in bold.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bdab08ea7854efca39e752274ecc654\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: Why\u2019s it in bold?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb01aab46be941a192ecfcd424ad6241\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Why is it in bold? That is a mystery to which there is no clear answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EIn terms of the second point that the member was making, the point is that there\u2019s two steps in the process in the 14-day period: first, the commissioner gives approval to incur a disbursement. So if that happens, then after the 14 days, when the bill comes in, the commissioner can approve, defer, or decline the payment. So the payments could continue past the 14 days if, in this period, the grant for disbursement is approved, and that is the transitional period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe other question was raised about the communications plan. The Ministry of Justice, of course, has a very comprehensive communications plan in place that will roll out the moment this bill is passed so that lawyers are made aware\u2014everybody\u2019s made aware\u2014at the earliest possibility that it has passed and that there is a 14-day period in which they can seek to have a grant for disbursement if they\u2019re currently in the system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d6f69313d170475fb6ad8f0aafe5fa59\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 5 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002222a0add0d69046d2b3147db582541bba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002222a0add0d69046d2b3147db582541bba\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I will now come to the vote on the Schedule, where there is no debate. The question is that the Schedule stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002203319c41616a4c068840ac22c0a517f4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Schedule be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000698\u0022\u003EBill to be reported without amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000699\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e9173b20cdf54814a05571a9533bc86f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e9173b20cdf54814a05571a9533bc86f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has considered the Legal Services Amendment Bill and reports it without amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00222c569b30ee0a425c85bad5c0c9e42625\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c569b30ee0a425c85bad5c0c9e42625\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for third reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022779e5f85b9ad495384b55e654940095e\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u00222aa7f560c5bb49bbaa87cb33c59d3042\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222aa7f560c5bb49bbaa87cb33c59d3042\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move that the Legal Services Amendment Bill\u2014sorry. Firstly, I present a legislative statement on the Legal Services Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cffc223fa4684537abc8a46c47a14a00\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022740af78430f5417bb1e1bb92fdee8293\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Legal Services Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EIn line with the Government\u2019s commitment to restoring law and order and improving the quality of Government spending, this bill puts an end to the Government funding of section 27 reports. It\u2019s clear that in recent years, the use of section 27 reports has evolved beyond what was intended when the legislation was first introduced. The result is a report-writing industry funded by taxpayers. The legal aid funding for section 27 reports has increased from approximately $40,000 in 2017 to more than $7 million in the past financial year, and this cannot be justified.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EThe bill amends the Legal Services Act to prevent the commissioner from being able to approve claims for payment or costs relating to reports or statements made by a person called on under section 27 of the Sentencing Act. However, importantly, the bill does not change any other aspect of the Legal Services Act. Offenders will still be able to call a person they choose to provide background information to the court under section 27. This information can, for example, be provided by a family member or a friend, in person or in writing, without any cost. The court will still be able to take such information provided under section 27 into account at sentencing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003EPutting an end to the current funding arrangement for section 27 reports will mean that savings can be used to improve support for the victims of crime. We will monitor the impacts of the law change closely to inform decisions in that regard. The Government is focused on delivering on our wider law and order policies with the ultimate goal of improving public confidence in the justice system. This short bill is being progressed under urgency through all stages so that we can deliver on the commitments we were elected to do. I would like to thank MPs for their support of this important bill. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00226ebce3c69e7c4b5e9df6b320669f7c6a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ebce3c69e7c4b5e9df6b320669f7c6a\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00228893dc76d26c4d65a79e62749b573050\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228893dc76d26c4d65a79e62749b573050\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. The Minister of Justice spent two minutes talking about this significant change to our justice system, so it\u2019s a sad day when a Minister really just doesn\u2019t address or come back to the House after the committee of the whole House stage to give us a fair summation of what\u2019s happened there, which is his function, and takes such a dismissive approach. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThe guts of it is this: the National Party and its coalition partners have a view of equal treatment before the law which is one-dimensional. It takes no account for the distinctions of people, where they come from, their circumstances, and their financial and wider ability to wrestle with the justice system. Only last week, we had the Minister and the Ministry of Justice in to talk to us about the ministry\u2019s programme to ensure better outcomes and experiences for M\u0101ori when they engage with the justice system. This makes a mockery of that; there\u2019s utter mockery of any suggestion that parties on the other side of the House have any interest whatsoever in addressing the gross inequities in our justice system and the fact that the statistics show that outcomes for M\u0101ori are worse, that the system is tilted, the playing field isn\u2019t even. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EThese reports, which had quality issues, you know, might have had budget issues, but, by and large, played a very important role in giving information to the courts. On the other side of the House\u2014and I know there\u2019s members over there who are wincing and I\u00A0get it, right? I understand that; they don\u2019t like what their Minister\u2019s doing and yet they\u2019ve got to suck it up because the Minister is running the show, and their coalition partners\u2014the likes of the ACT Party\u2014are taking a \u201Chard on crime\u201D approach and they\u2019re not willing to listen to officials. They\u2019re willing to dog-whistle to their fringe elements which just want to bash down on the most vulnerable in our society.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EBut the Minister did say one thing I want to latch on to and he said that the savings to be made here\u2014we know it\u2019s about $7 million a year\u2014now, in the National Party\u2019s Real Consequences for Crime election document, it said that every penny of that money would go to victims. So I want to hold you to account on that. I want you to make sure\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abb28853cfc24300a5c999ed6b3dc58a\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Not \u201Cyou\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022baeff74389f443aaaf8ec5456f3aab7a\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: I want to hold that party and that Government to account on that because they\u2019ve made a promise to the electorate, and the Minister was very clear when he was challenged time and again as to why he wasn\u2019t listening to his officials. He said, \u201CWe\u2019ve gone to the electorate with a promise, we won, now we\u2019re delivering.\u201D You won; you made more than one promise, and I want to make sure that that Minister delivers on his promise to victims to take every penny of that funding, the $7 million a year, to put it directly into victims\u2014not into the back pocket of landlords, not to offset the roads they want to build, but to victims in the criminal justice system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s very frustrating to see the very good advice of officials utterly ignored. Officials do a great job of saying, \u201CLook, we\u2019ve given you the view of the direction of travel. You\u2019ve stuck with the direction of travel. But if you\u2019re going to go down that road, here\u2019s what we think you should do to make it the best outcome possible, to achieve the policy objectives.\u201D, because the policy objectives we probably agree on: safer communities, lower reoffending, better reintegration, better outcomes for victims. We all agree on that and, as an aside\u2014secondary, I would hope, but perhaps primary for this Minister\u2014a cost-effective approach, one which is good value for money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, the fact of the matter is the ministry gave great advice as to how that might be achieved with a number of different tools, whether it be regulating the way in which these were provided, accrediting providers, placing caps on the amount that could be spent, having them provided only on request\u2014a raft of really useful tools to say, \u201CWe can get your policy objectives across the line and still retain the valuable benefits of these reports.\u201D And what did the Minister say? \u201CNo, nah, we\u2019re not going to do it, because we\u2019re not interested in good policy outcomes; we\u2019re just interested in a really dogmatic approach without nuance.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EYou know, I can see Mr Meager there is looking down, and I would too, because you know as well as I do that these reports are useful. You\u2019re a man who\u2019s of the law. You know these reports are useful. You know that judges rely on advocates to present the best evidence before them, whether it\u2019s in deciding the case or making a sentence, and this is depriving a judge of evidence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI was really frustrated with the dog-whistling in terms of the \u201Ccottage industry\u201D comments\u2014time and again, cottage industry. Cottage industry this; cottage industry that. The Minister was not being fulsome with the House, because, as I said in the committee stage, I asked him: who was receiving this money? What was the identity of the people to whom he was objecting and calling part of a cottage industry? The response is there in parliamentary questions for anyone to read\u2014under the written questions part of the webpage. He did not know; he was actually making that up. I asked him in this House, \u201CHow many reports has Harry Tam or his companies written?\u201D He did not know. It\u2019s utterly inappropriate for someone of the stature of a Minister of the Crown to come to this House and cast spurious, groundless allegations around to someone who isn\u2019t in this House, can\u2019t come and defend themselves, and to then just have a blanket \u201Ccottage industry\u201D is utterly, utterly wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022def15ba9314f41a2ac2eb97eca1e70c2\u0022\u003EJames Meager\u003C/span\u003E: How dare he sully the name of Harry Tam!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cdaab29d9ee47369aeaa4f0815730d0\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: No, I\u2019m not a defender of that person at all, but what I am a defender of is of the dignity of the office of a Minister, who should have a foundation for a statement before he comes to this House and makes it, and that Minister knew that his statement made to this House was utterly, utterly groundless. He should be ashamed of himself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo what\u2019ve we got? What\u2019ve we ended up with? Well, time will tell, but it\u2019s pretty clear from the advice that costs will rise, the length of trials will rise, incarceration rates will rise, and\u2014I think it\u2019s important to say this\u2014needlessly rise; rise not because people belong in prison, but because judges don\u2019t have the information to provide a more appropriate sentence which is better and safer for the community and more likely to lead to less offending. So what we\u2019ve got is a Government that\u2019s so committed to dog-whistling politics that it\u2019s actually having the opposite effect. This \u201Chard on crime\u201D approach\u2014yes, you\u2019re going to make life worse for these criminals, and you might be happy with that. I get that. But the real tragedy is you\u2019re going to make life worse for their victims and, quite possibly and most tragically, future victims. You\u2019re going to make their life worse for their families, because you\u2019re going to be taking people out of the family home needlessly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdfea808f7fc453190f1de0c7e76e190\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Government or the Minister; not me, Mr Webb.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227eb7d6e6f224de08e390960d0e96519\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s what they\u2019re going to be doing, Madam Speaker\u2014thank you for pointing out that those members, that Government is going to be needlessly taking parents out of the family home. We know that children of prisoners are much more likely to be prisoners themselves. That\u2019s what you\u2019re doing. That\u2019s what this is doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EWe came to this House with genuine suggestions about how this bill might be improved, and, you know, I believe that the Minister does want good outcomes and he\u2019s been somehow led down the garden path and thinks this is the only way to do it. But he wasn\u2019t prepared to listen to us. He wasn\u2019t prepared to make an amendment so that young people\u2014at least someone under 18 years old\u2014could be funded to get a report about what led to this offending and therefore inform the judge as to what the most appropriate measures might be, what the best reintegration framework might be, how to keep them best connected with wh\u0101nau and community connections. That\u2019s the kind of material that a judge needs, but no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ESo, ultimately, what we have here is a two-track justice system: those that can afford it and those that can\u2019t. The Government on the other side has reinforced inequities that already exist, made it easier for the wealthy to get a good outcome in the justice system and harder for those without means. It\u2019s shameful, it\u2019s sad, but that\u2019s where we are today with this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00227de6c3c6fe3c4c799c9108409b8f0c2f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227de6c3c6fe3c4c799c9108409b8f0c2f\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Tamatha Paul\u2014ha, ha, that was close! Just a warning to members that if that pause happens again, I could actually take a vote. So please be quick on your feet and call out. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022 data-id=\u002271e1ce67f5664012a0f9672e87e8b815\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271e1ce67f5664012a0f9672e87e8b815\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL (Green\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. During the committee of the whole House phase, I was going to suggest, when we were talking about the title of this bill, that we could consider this the \u201CLegal Disservice Amendment Bill\u201D because this bill is a disservice to our communities, it is a disservice to our society, and it is a disservice to victims of harm and serious crime. But I was too slow. But I know now!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EEverything has a whakapapa. Every thing and every person has an origin story, and all of us here in this House have a whakapapa that describes and explains how we came to be the people that we are and why we do the things that we do. We know that because, when we first stand in this House, we craft our maiden speeches, in which we honour that whakapapa and we talk about our lives and the trials and tribulations that we\u2019ve overcome that have allowed us to come here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EIn the same way, those cultural reports are about whakapapa; they\u2019re about understanding what kind of an upbringing somebody had, what kinds of challenges they face in their everyday lives, whether they have health disabilities, whether they struggle with addiction, whether they have experienced abuse in their upbringings or in their lives, whether they have experienced abuse at the hands of the State. Understanding this allows us to understand what the rehabilitative pathway forward is for that individual, and that\u2019s something that we need to understand in order to stamp any issues out at their root cause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EMoana Jackson said that a justice system does not exist in isolation from the society it serves, and that\u2019s exactly what these cultural reports aimed to address and what they sought to understand. What are the parts of our society that we all enable that are contributing to the reasons why people are causing harm? And, similarly, an individual and their actions do not exist in isolation from the society in which they live and were raised. And, as I just said, without those cultural reports, we won\u2019t ever fully grasp the extent to which our society is responsible for the harm that is experienced in our communities. I wonder whether that\u2019s because some of us and some of the rules that we\u2019ve made in this House are culpable for creating the conditions in which crime happens and harm happens in our communities in the first place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EI wanted to raise a point that my Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori colleague T\u0101kuta raised in the Justice Committee when we were able to question the Ministry of Justice, Corrections, and Police on a whole range of matters, but specifically on these cultural reports. T\u0101kuta raised the point that when Moana Jackson wrote his magnum opus He whaipaanga hou and when he exposed the racism that is baked into our justice system and the way that our justice system disproportionately incarcerates and impacts M\u0101ori, at the time of that being published, M\u0101ori women made up a very small percentage of the women\u2019s prison population.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238a2b6c1f28545caab447b020e34b792\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: 67 percent now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dadc712fac8b415797581c1db8238463\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, exactly\u2014over the span of just a few decades, we\u2019ve seen the representation of M\u0101ori women in prisons balloon to the point where M\u0101ori women are the most incarcerated indigenous group of people in the world. And that is not because there is something inherent within our whakapapa that makes us criminal; it is because our criminal justice system has racism baked into it, and this bill bakes it in even further. It\u2019s also because of the wealth inequality that our country has enabled to grow since the 1980s. We know that poverty is a driver of crime as well, but the thing is that we\u2019re not going to understand those drivers of crime, because we\u2019re taking out that important mechanism by which we can understand that more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EI wanted to talk, too, about the way that this House and in this debate today that we have talked about, written about, scrutinised, and, ultimately, objectified M\u0101ori and Pacific people as criminals. I think that in itself is criminal. There have been mountains of research that have pointed to the many ways that colonisation has contributed to a justice system that disproportionately incarcerates M\u0101ori, Pacific Island people, and poor people, and those are the communities that will be most deeply impacted by the removal of cultural reports.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EWhen you turn on your TV, and when you grow up in a place like I did, like Tokoroa, and you switch on your TV, all you see is the representation of M\u0101ori as criminals\u2014whether that\u2019s on the TV, whether that\u2019s in films, whether that\u2019s in television shows, we are represented as criminals. That\u2019s something that we have to understand because you can only be what you see, and if all we\u2019re seeing on TV is ourselves being represented as criminals, then of course there\u2019s going to be an element of living up to that. But we\u2019re never going to understand that, because we\u2019re removing the element that helps us to understand the cultural influences on why people commit crime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003ESo it seems that we only search for the causes of outcomes in every other area in life except for crime, the prime area that will impact the trajectory of somebody\u2019s life the most. It is time for a new way to approach the justice system, and that is by incorporating humanity and empathy into our processes and to allow for us to honour each person\u2019s right to seek justice in our system. In order to do that, we have to understand where somebody comes from, who they are, and what has driven them to do what they have done, because we have to. Our justice system is at breaking point. Our prisons are overpopulated. Corrections are struggling to recruit staff to even service the enormous prison populations we have\u2014both the remand population and the sentenced population.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003ESo this is just kind of funnelling more people into the justice system for longer periods of time and doesn\u2019t get to the root cause of why that crime was committed in the first place. I\u2019m sure that there are also many victims of crime that may be able to move towards a space of healing by understanding why the person committed that crime towards them, as opposed to never knowing, never having that closure of understanding why that was committed in the first place. And that\u2019s not to justify their actions, but it is to acknowledge that these cultural reports do help in the healing process for somebody to understand that background as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EThe Minister said today in the House that his mandate for rushing this bill through urgency was based on their election win, and that people on the doors were saying they just want to feel safe in their community and they wanted some law and order, and I think that\u2019s perfectly reasonable. It\u2019s perfectly reasonable that everybody should be able to live free from harm and free from assault and harassment and discrimination\u2014I absolutely accept that. But what I don\u2019t understand from today\u2019s debate is why the Minister saw this bill, in particular, as the key thing that would make communities feel safer. Because we know, based on evidence and the lack of evidence underpinning this particular bill that this is not going to make our communities any safer. In fact, like the Hon Duncan Webb was saying, it actually creates more future victims of crime and of harm. So, yeah, that\u2019s all I\u2019ve got to say on that. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022 data-id=\u00221c044fd60a5e423182773bb3aa1ef581\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221c044fd60a5e423182773bb3aa1ef581\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise to speak in support of this bill. Let me be clear\u2014I\u2019ve heard a lot of discussion tonight; let me be clear one more time: this makes no changes to section 27 of the Sentencing Act. Those provisions are still available for offenders to make submissions to the court. That was what it was intended to do. What we are simply removing is the funding for reports, often written by people with no connection to those offenders. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc85b91f5e784e6bac2bf22ee97eec99\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc85b91f5e784e6bac2bf22ee97eec99\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Look, in a sense, I\u2019m surprised we even have to legislate for something, essentially, as small as this. This is a very simple bill. What I\u2019m hearing from the Opposition is that it\u2019s as though these reports will not exist anymore. Of course they\u2019ll exist\u2014it is simply who is going to present the reports. Actually, I would say that it is much more valuable for the judge to get a report from people\u2014the wh\u0101nau, the friends; the people who know the offender rather than somebody who needs to be paid for it. Remember, these paid-for reports did not exist until 2017, and then only barely. So we are still going to have access to those reports; it is merely that they are not going to be paid for. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022 data-id=\u002227a35c927cf940a1853fc25b369fce57\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227a35c927cf940a1853fc25b369fce57\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te P\u012Bka, otir\u0101 t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou. Moumou te pango. Koin\u0101 te kupu k\u014Drero a te iwi M\u0101ori m\u014D t\u0113nei momo mahi, t\u0113tahi mahi k\u0101ore \u014Dna tino take, t\u0113tahi tangata k\u0101ore \u014Dna tino take. Moumou te pango. He moumou an\u014D hoki te k\u014Drero, i te mea ahakoa te nui, te wh\u0101nui, te wh\u0101rahi, te hohonu r\u0101nei o te kupu whakam\u0101rama kia m\u0101rakerake te kite atu, kei te taka ki te hunga taringa turi. Te taringa turi o te K\u0101wanatanga hou kua ara ake mai nei, e mea nei ahau he aup\u0113hitanga. He aup\u0113hitanga i runga i te iwi M\u0101ori, e kore te iwi M\u0101ori e whiti ki te ora, te oranga nuitanga i whakaarohia, i wawatahia, i \u014Dh\u0101k\u012Bngia e \u014D r\u0101tou m\u0101tua t\u012Bpuna i roto i te Tiriti o Waitangi. Moumou te pango.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EAra ake nei au ki te waha i ng\u0101 \u014Dh\u0101k\u012B me te t\u016B a te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori m\u014D t\u0113nei o ng\u0101 pire e tuku nei i te iwi M\u0101ori kia mauherehia i roto i \u014D r\u0101tou whenua ake o Aotearoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E[Thank you, Madam Speaker, indeed greetings to all of us. Waste of black. That is the phrase of the M\u0101ori people about this type of action, an action that has no real purpose, a person that has no real purpose. Waste of black. It is also a waste of a phrase, because despite the magnitude, the breadth, the length, or the depth of the words of explanation so that it can be clearly seen, it is falling on people with deaf ears. The deaf ear of the new Government that has risen, that I am saying is an oppression. An oppression of the M\u0101ori people, the M\u0101ori people will never make the transition to good health, the magnificent health that was considered, that was aspired to, that was bequeathed by their forebears and ancestors in the Treaty of Waitangi. Waste of black.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EI rise to give voice to the parting with and the position of the M\u0101ori Party with respect to this bill that allows the M\u0101ori people to be incarcerated in their own land of Aotearoa.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EIndigenous incarceration is well understood right around the world. In post-settler colonial societies, the indigenous people of those nations are overrepresented in incarceration, in discrimination in justice, in police and corrections\u2014in every possible place you can be exercising authority. This is well understood. If people in this House don\u2019t understand that, you need to catch up quick. Because what you are doing today, what you are doing in this bill, is extending\u2014extending\u2014that history. You are doing nothing to address it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223421d2b5112d4ef6a25f9b4abae5b781\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Can we refrain from the word \u201Cyou\u201D, please. Don\u2019t bring the Speaker into the debate; talk to the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264c0df0ab67641e3a96c6604a890d35d\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS\u003C/span\u003E: Kia ora. Well, they are doing nothing to find any solutions. As my tuahine has said, the work of Moana Jackson was dedicated to understanding the nature of the justice system\u2014not only in Aotearoa but across the world\u2014and the profound impacts that these types of justice systems established in post-settler colonialist societies have on the indigenous population. It is unequivocal\u2014it\u2019s unequivocal\u2014and I see, hear, feel none of it in what\u2019s been presented.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EYoung M\u0101ori men, young M\u0101ori, rangatahi M\u0101ori, who arrive in courtrooms around this country, they come largely unsupported, feeling a sense of whakam\u0101\u2014whakam\u0101, for they have strayed from where the ethos and the heart and the kaupapa of their culture for ever hoped that they would be. So they often arrive under-supported, they often arrive with no economic backing, and they are fodder into a minefield that sees them sent to jail five times faster than anyone else. These are not things that are up for contest; these are not things that need to be researched. And here we are, taking away one of the remaining available supports for those young M\u0101ori, for their families, as they come into the justice system in our country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EI can speak to this firsthand, and it\u2019s a real shame that the Minister of Justice isn\u2019t here just to listen\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0828624203146fe972951d57667706d\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just one of the things in this House: we don\u2019t refer to members who aren\u2019t in the House. So a lot of learnings going on tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234ef6c29f9b54ff1a4900b0e55a64bb8\u0022\u003ET\u0100KUTA FERRIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, i runga i \u014D m\u0101tou marae, ka t\u016B atu me te k\u014Drero m\u014D te hunga n\u0101 r\u0101tou \u0113nei k\u014Drero i taka. N\u0101 ki te kore e tae \u0101-tinana mai ki te hua me te whakarongo ki ng\u0101 kupu whakahoki, \u0113r\u0101 o ng\u0101 k\u014Drero, e mea nei he kupu mana-kore. Engari kei te pai, t\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 koe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003E[Well, on our marae, one stands and speaks about those who made these statements. Now, if they do not appear in person to consider and to hear the words of reply, those types of statements, it is considered words with no authority. But that\u2019s OK, thank you.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003EBut I can speak to this from firsthand experience that a young person in our wh\u0101nau found themselves, unfortunately, before the justice system and at the behest of, obviously, legal aid\u2014the minimum requirements to get them through the court procedure. Had we not been there to support that through, this young person would have been straight to jail. The information that was able to be gleaned from the wh\u0101nau members and presented in a manner that\u2019s acceptable to the court and made available to a judge\u2014to provide context for that young person\u2014had an impact on the ruling. That is now gone with this decision. You might say it\u2019s still there, but it\u2019s not, because these wh\u0101nau can\u2019t afford to pay for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002287c850cf-18f6-4be0-935a-0e24e0a352ae\u0022\u003ESo I reflect again\u2014for the person that I\u2019m not supposed to talk about\u2014and his view that, on the whole, colonisation was a good thing for M\u0101ori. And here he is, extending the reach and the impact of colonisation into the next generation of young M\u0101ori, who will arrive in justice, in courts around the country, under-supported, under-resourced, and at the mercy of a court that, by its very nature, over decades of time, has incarcerated those people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea31d4c65f02478592f2aeeab0896ad6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea31d4c65f02478592f2aeeab0896ad6\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. The speaker\u2019s time has expired. I let the member run over because I rang the bell a little late.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022 data-id=\u002275f4a0803a334679b537b18489acfa1e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275f4a0803a334679b537b18489acfa1e\u0022\u003EHon MARAMA DAVIDSON (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker, I appreciate the call. So the Government MPs have been at pains to clarify that this Government is only removing the legal aid funding for cultural reports. That is exactly the point, though. In actual fact, we have looked at commentary that saw the relevant Ministers actually seeing value in the cultural reports, in their own words, understanding the value of the wider context, that whakapapa that is brought to the courtroom to be able to service and meet other needs that have happened in the pathway of harm being caused. And the Ministers themselves have vocalised how they see the value in that, and then have quickly said, \u201CAll we\u2019re doing is removing the funding.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003ESo what they are, essentially, saying, then, is some victims are being focused on and others are not. Some privileged offenders are going to be able to have broader context and the rest are not. So that is the point that this side has been proving for the entirety of the passage of this bill through this House. And I\u2019m glad that we\u2019ve made that clear, because there were some earlier futile attempts to try and pin this legislation to being tough on crime. And that quickly got removed, I see. I see that they\u2019re no longer going down that road because, actually, they\u2019re still available, but just for those who can afford it. So this cannot be called \u201Ctough on crime\u201D, because it\u2019s only tough for some\u2014only tough for some\u2014and for those who do not have privilege already, it\u2019s not. So I can see why the Government members wisely chose to zip that narrative right up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003ESo then we are left with: what does actual accountability to victims look like? And a holistic, wh\u0101nau-centred accountability to the harm that has happened is exactly what this removal of funding does not do. So the real enduring solutions for authentic accountability, an accountability to harm caused that often is not met by a jail cell\u2014how is an offender supposed to feel direct accountability for the harm they have caused when it is in a place that means nothing to them, from a person and an institution that means nothing to them? So there too these cultural report funding removals are not even about victim-centred accountability processes. So we\u2019ve put that to the moenga, to the bed, as well\u2014we\u2019ll put that to rest also.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003ESo what we are left then with is simply just shallow election promises that have no basis or grounding in enduring justice solutions, especially for victims. And anybody who has spent any time looking into what happens to victims, including family violence and sexual violence victims who have been harmed by people who use violence\u2014anybody who has spent any time looking into that knows that funding cultural reports is not what is the problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003ESo then we are left with simply just shallow, dog-whistling legislation that will not benefit victims and will continue to perpetuate the inequities and the privileges of some people in the justice process. Now that has been happening for far too long. The funded cultural reports were actually an attempt to try and allow for a voice from marginalised and oppressed groups of peoples without the privilege. That\u2019s what the cultural reports were actually doing: trying to bring a voice in for people who have none, instead of just privileging people who have access to power and resources and networks. And that, unfortunately, is this justice system that we still currently have, that people can get away with harm and crime, depending on if you have privilege. That is why I strongly oppose the shallowness of this legislation. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022 data-id=\u002299a5fe6820b24270bcdb8bb2ccacff7c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002299a5fe6820b24270bcdb8bb2ccacff7c\u0022\u003EJAMES MEAGER (National\u2014Rangitata):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Madam Speaker. The implication from members opposite is that if they were approached by an offender who asked them for help, they\u2019d say, \u201CYes, but only for a fee.\u201D That is shameful. Reports remain; use them well; do it for free.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022a47ccccb89754c88b6b4d8dc24d53dbe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a47ccccb89754c88b6b4d8dc24d53dbe\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Ginny Andersen\u2014[Interruption] Just a moment\u2014I\u2019m calling the Hon Ginny Andersen, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u00229bc3bbbfc18245fd8b5840648869ae3e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229bc3bbbfc18245fd8b5840648869ae3e\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, and thank you to that member James Meager for that wonderful contribution to the debate tonight! In fact, the quality of this debate reflects which side of the argument has the stronger case, because when I think about what is the best way of characterising what we are seeing, just this bill is a really good example of the overall theme that this Government has been carrying over the past couple of months. The word that resonates the most with me is \u201Chypocritical\u201D, because when we look at what \u201Chypocritical\u201D actually means, it means\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219a98b60cfcb48ae9b679e5a9b6a4c02\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Hey, you can\u2019t use the \u201CH\u201D word.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c4975a2487748b39580e23c27e5f5bf\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, you can\u2019t call someone a hypocrite, but you can call a policy\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022960788ba82284b5cb653bef9c1814294\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: Hypocritical\u2014I can say it is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281748c6f2c1845ed8b8cf8b503d6a77a\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022075a7d97e5b440a8aecd28d44394902f\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: It is behaving in a way that suggests one has higher standards or has more noble beliefs than is the case, and I think this is a good example, because to talk tough on crime but to actually have a bill that makes more victims and more offenders is hypocritical. Also, to talk big about the cost of living crisis that all New\u00A0Zealanders are currently going through but to bring here a bill to this House under urgency that will increase the costs on the taxpayer\u2014that is hypocritical. So this bill is a wonderful example of the overall demeanour that this Government is bringing to New Zealand, and my prediction is that that demeanour will continue for the next three years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe first point I\u2019d like to make is access to justice. We hear that access to justice is important, but the reality is that this bill removes access to justice. It stops people having access to reports that will enable judges to make better decisions, and that is a real loss to our justice system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe two areas that it really affects the most, and that concerns me, are the victims of crime. So we have a Government that has spoken about how important it is to put victims at the centre of our justice system, but we have a bill now that is passing under urgency where no victim\u2019s voice is being heard, where there\u2019s been no victim adviser involved, and where there\u2019s been no advocacy groups able to have their voices heard. So if there is a view that the victims\u2019 voices should be heard and put front and centre of our justice system, would you not give them the ability to speak on a bill that directly affects them? But still we are told that this Government puts victims at the centre of our justice system. When victims do not get a voice, we will have judges making decisions that do not take account of the impact on the victims because the funding for section 27 reports has been removed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe other point that is important to make is to reduce reoffending. This is where it gets really hypocritical, because, only in the last few days, we\u2019ve heard this great news that the corrections system is going to have increased rehabilitation\u2014there\u2019s going to be, hopefully, more funding to go along with the increased rehabilitation\u2014and heard how that\u2019s going to help there be fewer victims of crime and less reoffending. But in the same breath, they\u2019re passing a bill that actually stops judges having the type of information before them at sentencing that will prevent reoffending, and that is exactly what Waikato University research published in 2020 actually said. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo there\u2019s not been very much research going on in this bill. We\u2019ve heard that the advice already provided by officials to the Minister was ignored and that they were directed to go for option two\u2014we know that from the debate earlier today\u2014but the research that we have got from Waikato University that was published in 2020 found that lawyers who used section 27 reports had experienced positive results, including better sentencing outcomes. It was a way to give the offender a clearer picture of the patterns involved in their offending and was reconnecting them with wh\u0101nau and community, it was educating the judiciary and court practitioners on cultures such as tikanga M\u0101ori, and it reduced reoffending. So we do have some evidence there, but that evidence clearly wasn\u2019t taken into account by this Government when passing a bill which they\u2019re claiming is going to be helping victims and also getting tough on crime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s really important that we go to the costs of this bill, and we\u2019ve discussed this at the committee stage. There\u2019s been some excellent work\u2014Newsroom, one of them that\u2019s picked up on this; there\u2019s been some other really good reporting on this space: that back in December, the Minister received very clear advice that the long-term outcome of passing this legislation would, in fact, have a heavier burden on the taxpayer. So, in the long run, we as taxpayers are paying more for a system that is broken. That is why this is hypocritical, because to say that cost of living is number one; to say that we need to be assisting New Zealanders with the cost of living crisis, yet passing a bill that is unable to be funded under current budget\u2014given there\u2019s also a 6.5 percent budget cut\u2014that is quite clearly hypocritical.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe Legal Services Amendment Bill will remove legal-aid funding for a report or a statement. What strikes me the most is just the sheer entitlement that we can hear members from the other side popping up and saying, \u201CWell, they\u2019re still there; we\u2019ve still got them. Just whip out your Visa. Haven\u2019t you got one?\u201D So it is actually quite shocking to hear that we must have a justice system\u2014if you want access to justice, you need to pay for those, and if a person cannot afford to pay for that, then tough luck; that\u2019s tough. Maybe that\u2019s where tough on crime comes in: it\u2019s tough on those who can\u2019t afford to pay. That\u2019s the tough on crime that this Government has. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242d55e9b68f749f7ab9e251e2569e4f2\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: A war on the poor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be7b1f07e3494358ac8aac963e0d5811\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: It is a war on the poor, that if you can afford your good lawyer, if you can afford a section 27 report, that will help the sentencing outcome for your case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIt saddens me\u2014it deeply saddens me\u2014that the bills this House is passing under this Government just create a further divided New Zealand society; a two-tiered society where if someone can pay, if they have access to funding, they get better access to legal services, they get better access to a pathway in life. But if somebody cannot afford, then that\u2019s tough luck; that\u2019s tough on crime. That is a real concern for the future generations of New Zealand. Because let\u2019s be honest: this disproportionately affects M\u0101ori, and it is M\u0101ori who will see the real detriment from this bill when those factors are not able to be taken into account at sentencing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a common theme of this Government to have disregard to those obligations under the Treaty of Waitangi to have consultation with a Treaty partner when there is a clear obligation and there\u2019s a direct impact on te Iwi M\u0101ori, there is an absolute disregard for those obligations that are underpinned within the partnership of the Treaty of Waitangi. Maybe one of those principles will be reviewed when we see the next bill come through the House on that one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI would like to conclude by saying that the real sadness going forward in this bill is: where does it set up our justice system? What is the future of our justice system if this is one of the first bills out of the gate for law and order that there will be a simple striking of the pen and the only justification, the only rationale, the only evidence, the only info that we got through the whole debate was that this was an election promise, this is in the 100-day plan, \u201CThis is in our coalition agreement, and therefore we\u2019re just going to go ahead and do it.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThere is no requirement to consult te Iwi M\u0101ori; there\u2019s no requirement to consult victims of crime; there\u2019s no need to consult anyone in in the legal profession because, going back to it, that is what hypocritical really is: it\u2019s behaving in a way that suggests one has higher standards or more noble beliefs than is the case. That is the problem with this Government. There is a holier-than-thou approach that proclaims to make law on behalf of others that directly impacts the wellbeing and the outcomes of other people in New Zealand without any regard to those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo I congratulate the members opposite on ticking the 100-day box of the 100-day plan and I look forward to all the commentary that comes in the weeks and months that pass as this Government once again hypocritically rides roughshod over the rights of New Zealanders and democracy; of people having a voice and being able to say that this bill is just damn wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00220a1b4ba1d8e24eb19eb7c8f6ac1893bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a1b4ba1d8e24eb19eb7c8f6ac1893bc\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the time has come for me to vacate the Chair. The House is suspended until 9 a.m. tomorrow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 9.58 p.m. to 9 a.m. (Wednesday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202403056d282d4e610843419a010d6b38118fb2000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f5dd6e3392c744f79c826e844b481cd7\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 5 MARCH 2024\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022137aef52cb5740c89d5d3b2a1f715726\u0022\u003E(continued on Wednesday, 6 March 2024)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d6c464baa469472785bf04db166c9b63\u0022\u003ELegal Services Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002295e1d497f0b74930b294781ce2169b0f\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000005\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022140a9dd1e0774b5394488a6dc74fd285\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022140a9dd1e0774b5394488a6dc74fd285\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Good morning. The House is resumed. We\u2019re on the third reading of the Legal Services Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022 data-id=\u0022b517fde0fb4941f1ab5229164c7f450f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b517fde0fb4941f1ab5229164c7f450f\u0022\u003ESUZE REDMAYNE (National\u2014Rangit\u012Bkei):\u003C/span\u003E Let\u2019s be really clear here. Amending the Legal Services Act 2011 to exclude section 27 reports from the legal aid scheme doesn\u2019t stop offenders from being able to get someone to speak directly to the court on their behalf. It doesn\u2019t stop someone from being able to provide a written statement regarding their background. But it does stop the cottage industry that writing section 27 reports has become, costing the taxpayer millions\u2014over $7.5 million last year, up from $40,000 in 2017\u2014while doing nothing for the victims of crime. I commend the Legal Services Amendment Bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022 data-id=\u00226f9592e6ebd44f1888752e80c1fb4a58\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f9592e6ebd44f1888752e80c1fb4a58\u0022\u003ELEMAUGA LYDIA SOSENE (Labour\u2014M\u0101ngere):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker, for the opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022256ba8aa67f848d79d209abd1df047bc\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: A five-minute call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200fa764587494a03a388e0fd956bf99e\u0022\u003ELEMAUGA LYDIA SOSENE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, sir. Labour opposes this bill. We heard yesterday and last night the Minister outline\u2014which actually wasn\u2019t much in terms of community engagement. M\u0101ori and Pasifika communities, M\u0101ori and Pasifika wh\u0101nau, M\u0101ori and Pasifika offenders are not going to get the benefit of the section 27 legal funding when it is removed by this mean-spirited Government, who does not care about victims who require support. Of course we know that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EIn terms of the judicial system and the sentencing judges of the judiciary, this report is not an excuse but it helps explain some of the offenders. And we know, in Pasifika wh\u0101nau, in Pasifika families, the grief when some of our young people, who have gone down the judicial system\u2014admittedly, for some of them, it is their own choice; however, many of our Pasifika families struggle in understanding the language and the culture that the prison system has.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EAnother thing is that Pasifika offenders require support from their wh\u0101nau. They may end up in the judicial system and have caused some grief. However, what the report does do is it provides the sentencing judge with further explanations of mitigating factors, and the reason and the cause for that. The sentencing judge will appreciate that the section 27 report that is put forward by counsel is an extra explanation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s be very clear: this is putting funding and money over people\u2019s lives. We heard some great contributions last night in terms of the system. We also heard the angst in the community with regards to the trauma. However, I want to just add in my contribution that M\u0101ori have specific tikanga that they follow, and so do Pasifika. We have far too many young Pasifika people\u2014once they enter the judicial system, they spend a lifetime trying to get out of it. And also, some of the offending behaviour requires a better explanation to be put forward and considered by that specific sentencing judge.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EIn terms of the section 27 cultural report, some of the specific offenders have ended up in the judicial system due to petty crime and just poor decision-making; however, the section 27 report that they cannot afford to pay for, or their families, to provide the extra evidence before that sentencing judge is a lever that could be considered further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EFor some of the young Pasifika offenders, they have had a life of crime, and, admittedly, they have made poor decisions. But the section 27 report is for those who require the legal funding to assist that specific sentencing judge to take in those factors of poverty, of not being able to have good English, of not being able to understand the reason why they\u2019ve ended up being incarcerated. I know section 27 will still be there. We\u2019ve heard a number of contributions that it is still in the system and is able to be put forward to the sentencing judge. But it\u2019s only there for those who can afford it. So, in fact, for our M\u0101ori and our Pasifika and our poorer families in this society, it is a travesty that the legal funding will not be there to help and assist these families, particularly for those offenders who have ended up in the judicial system and need that extra help.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003ELabour opposes this bill, Labour does not agree with what the Government members have said in this decision of theirs\u2014$7 million, that\u2019s what has been outlined in the numbers that we\u2019ve received\u2014and it is a travesty that we are unable to help these offenders, for the sentencing judge to consider further and have it explained further. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022 data-id=\u0022b70d39f20d984ca0aafcf8d2b6211ff9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b70d39f20d984ca0aafcf8d2b6211ff9\u0022\u003EPAULO GARCIA (National\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E We must acknowledge the challenges that face offenders and many young offenders especially. There is a lot of help needed for them long before they get to the space of being in a position to offend. But what the Legal Services Amendment Bill wishes to do is simply to bring back section 27 reports to what they were originally intended to do, which was to allow family members and friends, people who knew the offenders, to speak to the report and give them support. It was never envisioned for authors to be paid a whole lot of money which is raised from taxpayers\u2014to be provided\u2014even with no direct connection to the families or the offenders. So we commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u002255912d9a74d8413c8d1885685080a7f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002255912d9a74d8413c8d1885685080a7f1\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise to take a call for the third and final reading of this bill, the Legal Services Amendment Bill, this morning. I want to start by highlighting for the House that this bill is being rushed through under urgency, and that the impact of this bill is going to be severe for those who are in the justice system. Why we know this is because numerous, numerous organisations have provided comments to the media, outlining their concerns about the proposal to scrap the legal aid funding for section 27 reports. That comes from the New Zealand Law Society, the M\u0101ori Law Society, the New Zealand Bar Association, the defence lawyers, former judges, and even a Supreme Court judge.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ETo quote the president to the Law Society: \u201CAccess to justice will be seriously limited with the proposed defunding of cultural reports\u201D, with one report calling it a \u201Cracial weapon\u201D. The Law Society went on to say, \u201CWith funding for these reports removed, the only way a person facing sentencing will be able to access them is by paying privately. Those who can afford this would then have a greater level of representation in the Court than those receiving Legal Aid.\u201D The New Zealand Law Society said that \u201Cthis is a significant breach of fundamental rights\u201D. So I want to start my contribution by outlining this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EDon\u2019t allow the Government to downplay what they claim is a small change. As I spoke in the committee of the whole House yesterday, a small change, yes, but it has profound impact on the justice system. And this Minister of Justice should hang his head in shame. The reason Government are doing it is to save money. They don\u2019t care about access to justice. They don\u2019t care about a fair justice system. They don\u2019t care about the tools that we have given to judges to perform their jobs. What they care about is saving money, and I think that that is abhorrent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EIn another report, what we saw is that, in fact, defence lawyers are saying that this will increase court sentencing times and it will undermine judges\u2019 ability to pass fair, accurate, and humane sentences. That is what the impact of this Government\u2019s decision to scrap the legal aid funding of section 27 reports will have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI want to talk to the issue about this being rushed through Parliament under urgency to deliver on the Government\u2019s 100-day commitment. Fair access to equal justice and a fairer justice system\u2014completely pushed to the side in their determination to deliver on an election promise. In this own Government\u2019s regulatory impact statement, it says, regarding these time frames, that the proposals in this paper have been assessed in a significantly truncated time frame, that it has had limited ability to test the assumptions underpinning the problem definition and proposed response, to investigate and understand the intended or unintended consequences, to undertake consultation with M\u0101ori and stakeholders, and to consider a broad range of options. A shortened time frame to undertake this policy analysis means that none of that has been able to be done, and the scope of options has also been significantly limited. And the conclusion of the officials is that the Government\u2019s 100-day commitment to end taxpayer funding for section 27 reports significantly limits detailed consideration of alternative options to limit or otherwise improve section 27 reports.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ENow, in the debate last night, the Hon Willie Jackson asked questions around consultation. In the departmental disclosure statement, it points out that there has been no consultation with M\u0101ori. We know from the evidence in the Government\u2019s departmental\u2014oh, sorry\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200cc9c4d1eae431999285dcfd137f281\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s called an election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a57b10071e4d41e0b4e148122740c2cb\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll tell you what they say about an election, Mr\u00A0Goldsmith. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a682674a3ba46cf88965425ab0b72eb\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: The process is called democracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d1a33978be54bbaa5a08a57b653124c\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: If I did go to one of these reports, it says here\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a568f67ac9504b598f2dd71699a4a2ff\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, that old line: democracy. Is urgency democracy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e45502ba4c041618e539faba1e5c1b8\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, democracy\u2014\u201Ceven where policy promises have been made during an election, the Law Society expects to see robust policy work supporting their development and consideration of alternatives, alongside consideration of the wider implications. There may be other means of addressing what appear to be largely financial concerns and concerns related to the perceived impact of these reports on sentencing outcomes.\u201D The Law Society said an election result does not provide the robust process that they would expect to see when you are making fundamental changes to something in the justice system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ENow, to quote the Minister last night, he said, \u201CGiven the urgency with which we\u2019ve moved on this, there has not been formal consultation with different groups\u2014with the legal community or with iwi\u2014but it is something that we\u2019ve flagged very carefully and clearly in our election campaign. We said we\u2019re going to do it, and, lo and behold, we are going to do it.\u201D So my concern is that the Government is rushing this under urgency. They have no respect for parliamentary process. They have no respect\u2014only in the most significant of cases. They have no respect for the parliamentary process. They have no respect for the legal profession\u2014no respect for victims, because, in your own statement, it says you haven\u2019t been able to consult them. You haven\u2019t consulted M\u0101ori, who we know from the evidence are disproportionately impacted on this. The Government\u2019s own department, Te Puni K\u014Dkiri, said it does not support these proposals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EWe had a lot of\u2014well, could I say a lot of discussion last night and questions and answers on the committee stage of this. The Minister, basically, came back to just defending the Government\u2019s rushing of this through in urgency to \u201C100 days; we must complete it within the 100 days\u201D\u2014totally disregarding whether we\u2019re meeting any of our international obligations. And particularly, I discussed the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination\u2014no consideration for that. No\u00A0consideration for Te Tiriti o Waitangi, no consideration for the unintended consequences and costs that this would impose on the justice system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ESo to those that may be tuning in to this debate this morning, I would say this Government is saying that it\u2019s tough on crime, that it\u2019s saving money, that it\u2019s shutting down a cottage industry, but their own analysis provided by officials in December says that this is likely to increase the costs on the justice system. We tried to explore that last night\u2014the Minister didn\u2019t even engage on that\u2014to increase the cost on the justice system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ESo do not buy into their argument that this is a cost-saving exercise, that this has been unfair use of taxpayer money, when the evidence and the commentary provided from the legal profession\u2014the experts, actually, in this field: the New Zealand Law Society, M\u0101ori Law Society, Bar Association, defence lawyers, former judges, and a Supreme Court judge\u2014all say that they have grave concerns about the impact that this Government\u2019s rushed policy to remove funding for section 27 reports will have on access to justice and on fair and appropriate sentences. That\u2019s what this Government is doing; that\u2019s what they are prioritising.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EThis is just politicking. This is just them and their arrogance, being absolutely determined to implement something within 100 days, with not even taking it through a proper process and inviting submissions from the experts from this. No. They know best\u2014they know best. They don\u2019t want to hear from anybody. Apparently, the new standard is if you campaigned on it and you won the election\u2014I was just going to say, \u201CStuff all the parliamentary processes, we\u2019re just going to do it.\u201D I do not commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022 data-id=\u0022378c1169f96f472996fbc322950ecdf3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022378c1169f96f472996fbc322950ecdf3\u0022\u003ERIMA NAKHLE (National\u2014Takanini):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m pretty sure many of us in the House, as we know, have studied law. When I went through the practice part of the law component, I remember our lecturer saying that when it comes to sentencing, as a lawyer, you\u2019ve got to put together a list of mitigating factors for the judge to consider when he or she is making a determination on sentence. So I don\u2019t think it\u2019s such a big ask for us to say, for our lawyers, let\u2019s get back to the basics. Let\u2019s put together that list of mitigating factors for our magistrates, for our judges to make their decisions. What the last day of k\u014Drero has shown me is the extent to which some people in this House will go to defend criminals. It\u2019s been astounding. So what we say here today is we commend\u2014I commend\u2014this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022028cb19939f4492a953c9b8ff966734c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Legal Services Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000036\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224100ae4b9890456abdf9e4be206001b3\u0022\u003EBusiness Payment Practices Act Repeal Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002238f032b8a70d4a86a5823ee0ce4cdfa2\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022b457a722c7a84402afce82daac93463d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b457a722c7a84402afce82daac93463d\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY (Minister for Small Business and Manufacturing):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Business Payment Practices Act Repeal Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3a2636c83cd453bbc0adda6411090f3\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House, and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cdd6152d17e4fca8cf7bc27bb64af14\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Business Payment Practices Act Repeal Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe Business Payment Practices Act Repeal Bill repeals the Business Payment Practices Act 2023, associated regulations and amendments in other Acts, and revokes all associated regulations. The Business Payment Practices Act is not yet in force. It comes into force at the end of May. However, the Act is not a solution to the very real problem with late payments and long payment terms by large market players. The Government is repealing this Act because we opposed it when it was debated in Parliament and because we believe it will impose unnecessary compliance costs on 3,000-plus businesses without speeding up payment times.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe reason we are repealing this Act under urgency is that the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE) is about to commit between $2 million to $3 million to develop an IT system to meet the requirements of the Act. If it was just $2 million to $3 million, that may have been some concern, but many in the industry suggest that the amount that MBIE will have to incur to put in place the system will be at a much higher cost. In addition, there are many thousands of firms also poised to make IT spending to amend their systems to be able to record when invoices are received and when payment occurs. Of course, that is a huge cost when you think about many large companies who have significant enterprise resource planning systems which are not easily modified quickly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe Act relies on small businesses also using data on an MBIE website. However, many small businesses, particularly when you think about ones in Porirua or West Auckland or in parts of Tauranga, won\u2019t even know who MBIE is. And the thought that they would go and search on an MBIE website\u2014would know where to look on that MBIE website\u2014to find the specific data is something that is not actually a very strong argument. This undermines the utility of the Act as the information disclosed is highly unlikely to be used by small businesses in their decision making as to who they should do business with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe other aspect with the proposal in the Act was that the businesses, the large businesses, would be required to submit a return every six months, but they would then have four months after that to file their return. In essence, the information could at different periods of time be up to 10 months old when the small-business owner was actually trying to find out what is the current state of payment cycle for the large business. In essence, it\u2019s an out-of-date information system that comes at high cost.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe other thing which we argued strongly with the Government at the time, as they railroaded this through the select committee, was that anyone, any small business, even an individual, and some of the members from across the way, if they so chose, could get on their phone, dial into a website, and go to one of the credit agencies\u2014and there are four, but just to name one, such as Centrix\u2014and they would be able to get that information on payment times in real time, not 10 months\u2019 old, in real time, and actually much more comprehensively, and on the payment cycles of a particular firm for a mere sum of $35. That is one of the main reasons why we want to repeal this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESmall businesses won\u2019t be impacted by this repeal, because the Act hasn\u2019t come into effect yet. However, they will get real benefit from other avenues that I am pursuing, including, firstly, working with the ministry of finance to reinforce the requirement that Government agencies are to pay ordinary creditors within 10 working days. This should have been the start point for the last Government\u2019s response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022445cbb2a6b3744b890af7955b65e38d5\u0022\u003EKatie Nimon\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right; lead from the top.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270456ef1b1ea4e7a838b2297b61d4060\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: Start leading from the top\u2014start leading from where Government sits rather than imposing costs on businesses, which is always the approach of the Labour Government when they thought about solutions. However, if the Government wants to show leadership in this process, we need to sort this out, and that\u2019s what we will be doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESecondly, we are very keen\u2014and personally, in my responsibility as Minister for small business\u2014to encourage e-invoicing. So we will be asking Government agencies to make sure that they prioritise e-invoicing and faster payments. That means the first emphasis for Government agencies is that they need to be send/receive capable\u2014and I just note that e-invoicing is not doing an invoice and PDF\u2019ing it and then sending it by e-mail. What that means is setting your systems up so you can transfer the data; there is no need to create invoices as such. That\u2019s the second requirement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe third thing is that we want to incentivise small to medium sized enterprises to also adopt e-invoicing when they are interacting with the Government. And I would remind the House that the Government spends about $51 billion a year on services, and by incentivising businesses and small businesses that adopt e-invoicing\u2014we will achieve this by reducing the payment time by Government agencies down to a five working-day time line, thereby increasing the cash flow of small businesses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe fourth thing is we will be proactively publishing the Government payment times and making sure the Government adheres to its rules. And the next thing is we\u2019ll be expanding these arrangements to other Crown entities. We need to go through a period of consultation with them, but we do not see or envisage any reasons why they cannot also meet the same requirements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe sixth element of the reforms is that I have announced, alongside Kirk Hope from Business New Zealand, that we will be working with it on an industry-led voluntary code, similar to the Business Council of Australia\u2019s, to put in place a supplier payment code to make sure large businesses across New Zealand are paying small businesses on a much more timely basis. And finally, through my role as commerce Minister, we will be raising awareness of existing redress options under the Fair Trading Act 1986, which is administered by the Commerce Commission, who do a relatively good job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI would note that the Australian Government implemented a similar piece of legislation in 2020. There\u2019s been a recent review of that. It\u2019s found to be actually not working and, in some cases, has led to even worse outcomes for small businesses. There\u2019s a number of reasons why that has taken place. First of all, there\u2019s an unrealistic assumption that small businesses can choose their customers based on payment performance information. The\u00A0complexity and burden of reporting requirements of large businesses, poor quality and utility of reported data, the low awareness and usage of the register, which was my earlier point, and the dashboard by small businesses and other stakeholders and the lack of enforcement and compliance culture of the regulator\u2014which is why we\u2019re going to address it by publishing the results of Government agencies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThere is widespread support for making this change. People regard it as a practical approach to an issue that does need to be addressed. We don\u2019t want small businesses being burdened with slow-paying large companies. That\u2019s why we\u2019re putting in a much more comprehensive package around it. We want to see this go through. We want to make sure that we remove some of the unnecessary regulations. The economy is being strangled by a spaghetti of regulations requirements that are tying businesses in knots. We\u2019re committed to reducing regulation, and repealing this unnecessary Act is a good first start in this. On that basis, I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00221fa058c72e3045a29e2366de629ea2b4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221fa058c72e3045a29e2366de629ea2b4\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u002250a01e2657924467949ec7670a0bdf8d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250a01e2657924467949ec7670a0bdf8d\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise in opposition to this repeal bill, and I want to talk about why. I have a great deal of time for Mr Bayly as a person\u2014as he knows, we\u2019ve sat on committees together, and I know him well\u2014and I don\u2019t intend to do anything but absolutely speak genuinely to the Government and to the Speaker about what I think about what is going on today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI was an employment lawyer for 25 years, and I came across this problem quite frequently. And I came across it from people I never really expected to. Often they were quite powerful in their own right\u2014they might be the HR manager at a company\u2014but they were contractors, and they were in situations where they worked for our biggest businesses. And our biggest businesses had a practice which they thought they couldn\u2019t walk away from, because it made sense to them financially, and that was to delay payment. So a business like Fonterra delayed payment to its staff for three months. They were sole traders\u2014three months regularly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c411224f3914c44978f3921ab6fe415\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: Staff or suppliers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022845e4d79e527474185a96b932566f39a\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely. Sole traders. Sole traders. So I am talking about people who were contracted into the business, and I am hearing the Government say differently, but that\u2019s not right. Those people I know. I can stand on the experience I had. Those sole traders were in no position to argue with our biggest companies; they were dependent on them. So, basically, our biggest companies, our companies with over $100 million of capital, were the companies that were withholding from these small players, these people who were sometimes their suppliers too, who were often small businesses which were dependent on the only capital they had, which in New Zealand actually turns out to be their house. Usually it\u2019s the equity in their house. They were the people waiting. From our biggest companies, they were waiting for payment, because the big companies were using their money, their hard-earned money, their money that they\u2019d earned three months earlier, just to get the interest on it. They were cynically using that money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EAnd this emerged as an issue, and it got picked up, and it got picked up by The Spinoff in 2017, by one of the journalists, Cormack, who talked about it. And it got picked up by practitioners like me who saw what was going on and thought it was really unfair. So we got to pick it up, but nothing was being done about it. This obviously had happened in Australia too, and they went after it with a law where they did something quite similar, but they had a threshold of $100 million. We went after it in perhaps what I would say is a softer way than I would have liked. I would have liked to see a prohibition on this kind of clause. The reason for doing it in this way was to collaborate with people to really target those big, big businesses against our small ones.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EOur small ones are 97 percent of New Zealand businesses, and those people need a champion in this Government, and they haven\u2019t got one. What they\u2019ve got is a Minister who comes from the experience of being a fund manager, and that is all about financial markets. That\u2019s big business. That\u2019s very, very different from the small businesses I\u2019m talking about. I\u2019m talking about the tradies. I\u2019m talking about the people out there who are our contractors who are basically, often, just trying not to work for the man, right? They\u2019re trying to run these businesses, and those are the people that you will hear me, in these speeches, stick up for, because this was nudge legislation which had already started to change the habits of our big companies because it shamed them. It said it shamed them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m going to put out some amendments today, and I hope that the Minister will listen to them. They are amendments that are all about doing stuff that gives this more teeth, doing stuff that takes this seriously, because I want to see our small businesses thrive in this country, and we should be targeting those big businesses and holding them to account. Instead, what this legislation does is repeal and then repeal that repeal so we don\u2019t even know it ever existed. We\u2019ve never even put our toe in the water to standing up to big businesses who act in a way that I consider immoral. I consider it a form of theft from our hard-working New Zealand businesses. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00221b1714d47ed14dffa4af9e1e7dcdb5ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b1714d47ed14dffa4af9e1e7dcdb5ef\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I just encourage members to keep an eye on the speaking list.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022 data-id=\u00220850da3fe267474caf3616124610805a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220850da3fe267474caf3616124610805a\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I thought I was number three, but thank you for the opportunity to talk on the Business Payment Practices Act Repeal Bill. We have become used to the coalition Government\u2019s desire to seek some fabled idyll where the lowly classes know their place. Oliver Twist asked for a second helping of gruel and he was deemed not only impertinent but considered unworthy, a\u00A0criminal and a sinner. What impertinence our small-business owners have to expect to be paid on time for work completed and product supplied! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EThe coalition Government seems to want our small-business owners, our innovators, our risk takers, to doff their hats and to scrape and bow to big business. Our small businesses are grappling with challenging economic conditions and this repeal will simply harm them further. Again, like so much that is undemocratic, this repeal is being pushed through under urgency which denies the voices of small businesses to be heard through the select committee process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EWhat is it that the Minister fears so much from small businesses? What is it that the Minister fears so much from public scrutiny? Does the coalition really think that urgency is required to pass legislation on business payments? What purpose does urgency serve other than to deny small businesses a voice? It seems the Government\u2019s so enamoured with urgency that every little thing is going to proceed through this way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EThe Minister claims the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment is concerned, but, really, he just loves urgency? doesn\u2019t he. Personally I would like to hear from those small businesses who are the backbone of our economy and are currently facing the harsh realities of high interest rates and soaring inflation that is being fuelled by this Government. Whether it\u2019s plant-based soap or candles or cleaning products or engineering services or intellectual property innovators, our risk takers are the ones that are doing it tough and our small-business owners deserve to be paid on time and in full. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EThe Business Payments Practices Act was to provide a lifeline in difficult times to alleviate the bullying by big business that we\u2019ve just heard. We need to foster an environment that encourages timely payments, and this is going to leave small businesses with less information, less transparency in a period of economic turmoil. When I ran my own consultancy, I had a good contract with a significant company who did not pay on time, and when that payment was missed it took months for the payment to come through. I had to cover not only overheads but subcontractor costs, and I carried the risk, the stress, the hit on income, despite completing the work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EThe examples of small businesses carrying the big boys are so, so many. I know of an energy start-up that won a contract with a big company, and that enabled it to expand. But when the contract payments didn\u2019t come through, the founders of the energy start-up had to forgo their income to cover overheads just to keep the company afloat, to cover wages. Small businesses who have a modest number of clients take on a huge risk when they take on a contract with these irresponsible, bullying big companies, and it becomes a serious problem\u2014like the Dunedin engineering firm having to cover $100,000 of debt from Macraes mines. They struggle, they struggle incredibly, and this Government is arguing that the Business Payments Practices Act imposes compliance costs on New\u00A0Zealand businesses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EGood businesses are willing and able to honour contracts and be active and responsive. A good business will pay attention to their obligations each and every day. This is not hurting good businesses. The Business Payments Practices Act was designed to rectify a power imbalance between large corps, and small and medium enterprises, to help those who want to do better; to do a culture change. And there\u2019s a staggering cost to our economy and our small businesses due to late payments. Research from the Institute of Economic Research has shed light on the problem and suggests it\u2019s $456 million annually\u2014annually. National has talked big about getting Aotearoa back on track\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236be4b83bbaf44fdaf1e6f58b8e3cc1e\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has come to an end.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022 data-id=\u00221c0f63fcbd824736ac6cb2bc99146ff0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221c0f63fcbd824736ac6cb2bc99146ff0\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise to speak in support of this bill. I\u2019m proud to be in a party where the majority of our MPs have actually worked in small business. We actually do represent small business on this side of the House because we\u2019ve been there. We understand what it\u2019s like and we know what the challenges they face are, day to day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003EThis bill that we\u2019re putting in place does repeal some unnecessary compliance costs\u2014and in a relationship we don\u2019t actually need to be interfering in. We\u2019re very supportive of small business, but this is not the way to do it, and it\u2019s also not the way to impose additional costs on other businesses. We are very supportive of this bill, and it\u2019s good to get the Act repealed before it comes into force and all of these reporting requirements are\u00A0put in place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228f868e0-e859-4953-979a-78aa7a3b5e25\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1e04521d4e349e98ab2ad33e9fce61f\u0022\u003EDarleen Tana\u003C/span\u003E: Cheap debt-servicing for big business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241bbc648bfd04f06922e68e6c194cef2\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m hearing a lot of interjections from across the House. We support all business, and, as I\u2019ve already stated, we actually have worked in small business, so we actually know all of the pressures that they face. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a391ee0112c408b856624bb5e798f3a\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: So have we. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b30e05f93e0d42549aa6bdd4e22f578c\u0022\u003ETODD STEPHENSON\u003C/span\u003E: Great! So you\u2019ll know that this is totally unnecessary and, yet again, it\u2019s having the Government interfere in the relationship between enterprises working together. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2afb935f71a44d097abcccd4d4572c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2afb935f71a44d097abcccd4d4572c6\u0022\u003ETANYA UNKOVICH (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I rise on behalf of New Zealand First in support of repealing this previous Act that was put in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003ENow, one of the things that businesses need is data. They need data in real time in order to make good decisions on how to run the business. So whether it\u2019s a small business or a big business, data is vital. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003ENow, if there is a six-month reporting period and then another four months after that, that is 10 months; whereas now there is information available. If you want to pay the fee, it is a minor fee to pay. But good business owners don\u2019t make decisions based on 10 months of lapsed data. So this is why New Zealand First commends this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0d99b9ebe9942c1a6d6583bbcb85cb2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0d99b9ebe9942c1a6d6583bbcb85cb2\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E If anyone needed more proof that this Government has corporations in its pocket, they should look no further than this bill, the Business Payment Practices Act Repeal Bill. The legislation this bill is repealing was designed to help ensure that small businesses are paid on time when supplying goods and services to large firms. It did this by establishing a disclosure regime to create transparency around businesses\u2019 payment practices across the economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s take, for example, the supermarket duopoly. The Commerce Commission concluded in 2020 that major supermarkets made a profit of $430 million, but now they can delay payment to those who are providing the goods and services to those particular organisations, without them being paid over a four-month period. Nobody wants to pay another extra small fee to go and see whether those big businesses pay that money or not, because they haven\u2019t even been paid for the goods and services that they\u2019ve provided for those particular companies. Apparently, expecting wealthy corporations to pay their suppliers on time is too big an ask for this Government. They\u2019ve taken away whatever negotiating power small businesses have, as a matter of urgency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EThis bill is just another example of who this Government represents and who they are willing to sacrifice. Over 97 percent of all businesses in Aotearoa are small businesses. We have always known that this Government represents the 3 percent. We are currently seeing the largest transfer of wealth in a generation, from ordinary people to banks, landlords, and corporations. The richest 10 percent now control 50 percent of the country\u2019s wealth. The poorest half owns a mere 2 percent. On top of that, average people of Aotearoa are paying 20.2 percent in tax while the wealthy are only paying 9.4 percent. Our tax system is doing exactly what it was designed to do\u2014take from the poor and give to the rich. Before anyone accuses me of getting off track, this is all connected to the Government\u2019s economic agenda that inspired this bill. This is part of an economic agenda that values the profits of the tobacco industry over M\u0101ori lives. So far, their approach to poverty and wealth inequity has been to give $3 billion in tax cuts to their wealthy mates while passing legislation under urgency to make workers, beneficiaries, M\u0101ori, and now small business pay for those tax cuts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EMost M\u0101ori businesses are small business. Repealing the business practice legislation will mean that if a local fruit grower enters a contract to supply a large company like New World, New World has all the negotiating power in that arrangement\u2014New World, which is currently seeing record profits with record food prices will be allowed to put off paying invoices upward to 120 days. That\u2019s four months. That\u2019s a long time for a small business to go without payment, and it\u2019s long enough to put them out of business. They don\u2019t have the luxury or the entitlement of a thousand dollars for a living allowance that calculates up to 52K a year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EIn fact, extending payment terms is a tactic that big companies have used since 2008, after the global financial crisis, which led to a lot of small businesses failing. Making business payments for firms earning over $33 million per year transparent and publicly available was such a small change that made all the difference for small, family-run businesses. Requiring big businesses to publicly report on their own payment practices, particularly late payment, not only helped small businesses make decisions on who to do business with but encouraged larger firms to do better at the risk of their reputation. It was a small step to empower small businesses and bring some balance to their negotiations. It was a small step to prevent big businesses from exploiting and ripping people off, so of course this Government is repealing the legislation. We will not be supporting this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u0022e605e193dae74bed92be3da926274538\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e605e193dae74bed92be3da926274538\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Actually, this debate so far underlines what some people are not approaching as a debate. If they had listened to the speech from the Minister Andrew Bayly\u2014clearly the Green member Scott Willis had not heard that or had chosen not to listen. The Minister pointed out that there will be a bill, which I predict will be called the \u201CBayly Bill\u201D, which will actually address a lot of the issues that they raised, in a much more comprehensive way, in a much more cost-effective way, and bring all of the stories of woe that were brought before us under control.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003ENo one is suggesting that we don\u2019t enforce people paying their bills on time. That is exactly what the Minister said he was going to do, and for those newer members, just have a listen to the people that are speaking before you. Helen White did actually do that, and I give her credit for that. We have different views, but at least debate. That\u2019s what this is; it\u2019s a debate. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u00224f3cfff4da2549ca822960fdebe59583\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f3cfff4da2549ca822960fdebe59583\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. In the spirit of debate, I\u2019d just like to ask the Government what they are afraid of when it comes to transparency on business payment practices.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EI\u2019m disappointed, actually, because Mr Bayly and I sat on the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee when this went through, and we worked quite closely together to make some changes to the original bill that I thought had satisfied the issues that he had raised. One of them was around the $33 million cap; I think, originally, it was around $10 million. There were a few other things that we worked on together. So it\u2019s really disappointing today to see that he wants to sweep this out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EI take heart in the fact that there is apparently going to be a new bill. It sounds like there might be a plan. We haven\u2019t seen a lot of plans from this new Government. But if there is a plan and if it truly does put public payments\u2014in particular, Government payments\u2014and shed some light on them, then I really look forward to that because I think that leading from the front is a great example and a great thing to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EBut Mr Bayly mentioned that the Australian equivalent, the payment times reporting scheme, had some deep flaws in it and a report was done and it showed that this didn\u2019t work and that was a reason to go ahead with the New Zealand repeal. But, actually, that report did not say to repeal the system; it suggested some fundamental improvements that could make it work. What it really said was \u201CLet\u2019s make sure that the legislation is pinned firmly on reputational risk.\u201D This is all about sending a signal to big business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EI know, having worked as a small-business owner who employed up to 25 contractors at some points in time, the importance of cash flow. I also know, having worked in a large multinational organisation\u2014the British Council\u2014that it makes sense for big business to extend payment terms as long as possible because the incremental amount of interest that they get on holding on to those payments when they are aggregated upwards can amount to millions of dollars of profit for them. Now, I\u2019m not saying that that is an evil or despicable thing to do; it is the signal that the market sends, and it is allowed to do that within the rules. The Government might call that entitlement, actually, but it\u2019s not the right thing to do. What this intervention would do is simply tweak that to make sure that there were reasonable payment terms. I know, when I worked for the British Council, I worked really hard and it was quite difficult to get payment terms of seven days over the line for our contractors, rather than the month or so that it took. I do know there were some times when it took four to five months for contractors to get paid. As a small-business owner, I also understand the impact of that on cash flow. Cash flow is king; not just cash. So it\u2019s really, really important to have things in place that send a signal to the big players that they have reputational risk if they do not conform to a scheme and if they have sloppy payment practices.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThe other thing the Australian report said was to make the register more accessible to users: so simplify the register, make it more easily available. I\u2019m sure that\u2019s something that the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE) had noted and is probably work on right now. It also sought to improve or streamline the quality of the data. These are valuable lessons learnt from our Australian counterparts that could mean a really good bespoke system for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EFinally, it wanted to improve the power of the regulator. I\u2019m sure Mr Bayly won\u2019t have any issue with that. We sat together on select committee\u2014on a couple of select committees, actually, including the Finance and Expenditure Committee and the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Committee. There was a lot of work around the Commerce Commission. My sense\u2014and I don\u2019t want to speak for the Minister\u2014was that he would like to see regulators have considerable powers so that we can get rid of some of these market-dominant situations that we find ourselves in with supermarkets, and so on. So I don\u2019t see why the Minister wouldn\u2019t want to look at these really valuable lessons learnt from Australia; see that we have already sunk some costs into what could be a really good, workable scheme; that it will provide a signal to the market and be a tweak to the market that will make it a more level playing field; and not undo all the good work that not only MBIE has done around creating these regulations that would have come into force but also the work that we did together on the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWe had the mitigation of increasing the cap from $10 million in revenue to $33 million. We made sure that the data that would be available would not be commercially sensitive. We made sure that there would be no prescriptive time frames for business, so we weren\u2019t telling them what the time frames had to be; merely saying that they had to follow the rules that they set out for themselves. We just really had something that I thought was good, and it\u2019s such a shame that we\u2019re going to repeal that under urgency and come up with something that we haven\u2019t seen what the plan is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022 data-id=\u00224de5ae039c244f418ea23d4501b71ef3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224de5ae039c244f418ea23d4501b71ef3\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019d like to speak in support of this bill, and I\u2019d just like to allude to the member that has just spoken, Ingrid Leary, who said that this Government has no plans that she\u2019s seen. Well, in the first 100 days, we\u2019ve got 49 actions, and our plans are very much focused on getting this economy back on track. And that\u2019s being aspirational for business\u2014driving productivity, creating jobs and opportunities, not strangling business with six years of red tape, regulation, compliance, and cost. This is not the way to get this economy ahead. As my colleague has already pointed out, we\u2019re all about innovation and using innovative ways for small business\u2014that\u2019s e-invoicing. On that side of the House, they\u2019d know nothing about innovation, productivity, aspiration for business, and that is why I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022 data-id=\u002250ac0281ab7c4c69b77757eccdb6a6aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250ac0281ab7c4c69b77757eccdb6a6aa\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker, and thank you for the opportunity to speak against the repeal of the Business Payment Practices Act 2023. Aotearoa New Zealand is a nation of small businesses. Many of us in this House, on both sides, will have worked and maybe even owned our own small businesses. Many of the people we are elected to represent will own or work in small businesses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ENow, the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment tells us\u2014and other members of this House have been good enough to point this out\u2014that there are more than half a million small businesses in New Zealand. That\u2019s classed as a business with fewer than 20 employees\u2014so that\u2019s 97 percent of the businesses in New Zealand. So, in its simplest form, this is a bill that makes sure 3 percent of businesses provide information to make it easier for the other 97 percent to do business and, importantly, to stay in business. It sounds good to me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EAnother thing we know for sure is that late payments cripple cash flow and that that can and does kill small business. So, members, you don\u2019t have to take my word for it, because in the heart of our electorate of Christchurch East is Kai Connoisseurs, proudly at home amongst the local businesses of Aranui, in Hampshire Street. It\u2019s a real small business, and I can recommend Frybread Frydays. If you\u2019re ever down there, get on in\u2014the best fry bread in the east\u2014and don\u2019t even get me started on their dumplings. We are so lucky to have this small business in Aranui. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ENow, owner Sachiko Shimamoto recently shared her experience of the impacts of being made to wait for payment, and I will share some of her words here: \u201CA little snippet of my journey in business titled: You\u2019re late. I sat and stared at the screen in disbelief. It was Monday the 22nd January and they still hadn\u2019t paid. I clicked into gmail and typed the first few letters of their name and found the last email I\u2019d sent. 15 was the number in the little circle that counted how many times we\u2019d communicated back and forth; but that wasn\u2019t all. Right under that was the three other threads of comms regarding that particular event. Deep breath, it\u2019s ok they\u2019re probably still on holiday. I clicked into the banking app to cross check the payments again, nope definitely not there. My heart began to pound as frustration tickled my eyeballs and made my hands sweat. The same hands that picked out the yummiest grapes, that buttered the bread just right and rostered the staff that came to help chop, dice and slice all the kai they happily consumed; all those months ago. The worst part is, they are not the only ones. Over the years others have done the same. Currently, 3 is the number of ghosts I\u2019m chasing. Ouch, the pounding turned to aching as I clicked back into xero and began to process the pay run. Carrying these debts is heavy. \u2026 Could I of spent more time communicating our terms and conditions, should I of asked for payment prior, should I of spent so much time accommodating their multiple requests, changes and enquiries \u2026 Running a business is hard. Being an employer is hard. Paying for kai, staff, rent and the rest; is hard; and spending my time asking to be paid, over and over for mahi we\u2019ve already done well that\u2019s ho-hard! \u2026This is a letter to organisations and corporates using small local business to provide services that support your kaupapa then, forget to support them back. Please prioritise paying your bills. \u2026 Signed: A tired, hard working solo M\u0101m\u0101, business owner, employer and hoha human who\u2019s had about enough of asking politely for what we are owed.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EIf those words don\u2019t have an impact, I suggest members should check out the full post on Facebook and see the photo of an exhausted business owner sitting on the floor of her kitchen, waiting to be paid. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ESmall businesses need the support of legislation like this. As members of Parliament, as representatives of our communities, I want to be able to walk in and enjoy Frybread Fryday at Kai Connoisseurs, knowing I\u2019ve done all in this House to help businesses like this. They need to know that they can do business and be paid so that they can pay their people and their bills so that they can stay in business, and this repeal makes that harder. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022 data-id=\u002287dca77c64dc4f0992830dd3cbf6e55e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002287dca77c64dc4f0992830dd3cbf6e55e\u0022\u003ENANCY LU (National):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support the repeal of the Business Payment Practices Act, because businesses in New Zealand are desperate to move forward in this very challenging economy, and they\u2019re desperate to move forward with the modern world. What they don\u2019t need is excessive regulation in their areas that will just ask them to do additional administrative work and disclosures. What businesses don\u2019t need is for the Government to tell them to keep disclosing. What businesses need is smarter and more modern processes, so people can actually go on and pay faster. This will benefit the entire economy. So, therefore, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227c31b6389ef74a6e84a17082afdf2bf4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Business Payment Practices Act Repeal Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000105\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee5ff611f31e41bfafd87ac136b9b42b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee5ff611f31e41bfafd87ac136b9b42b\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The bill is set down for second reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002286e4426068d542e9b99adf930372cb27\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022c48c4c1fd43c43dabed190beb99887e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c48c4c1fd43c43dabed190beb99887e1\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY (Minister for Small Business and Manufacturing):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Business Payment Practices Act Repeal Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EIt was very good listening to the speeches from the Opposition, in particular\u2014although I acknowledge the members from this side of the House\u2014but I think there\u2019s a fundamental discrepancy in the understanding of what we\u2019re trying to achieve. No one in this House wants to see late payment, particularly for small businesses. No one wants to see that, across the House. The issue at hand is: how do you put in place some mechanisms to ensure that payments do occur, particularly from large businesses to small businesses, on a timely basis? Quite simply, the proposition that was put forward by the previous Government is not the solution. They borrowed a solution from Australia without thinking, and, I think, without the practical acumen to be able to work out whether, in fact, it was going to be a good scheme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s interesting looking at the recent review of that scheme in Australia by the Minister, the Hon Dr Craig Emerson. He writes in the covering note\u2014and I quote here\u2014\u201CA well-functioning reporting scheme that reveals the payment performance of large businesses has obvious merit.\u201D\u2014that\u2019s my point; everyone in the House would agree with that\u2014\u201CIt would increase Government and community awareness of the payment performance of large businesses.\u201D But immediately following that, he goes on to say, \u201CI find that one of the objects of the Act\u2014to make payment times information publicly available in order to \u2018enable small businesses to make more informed decisions about potential customers\u2019\u2014has not been met and is fundamentally unrealistic. I have made this finding for two main reasons. First, awareness of the [scheme] by small businesses is extremely low.\u201D, and he quotes that, accompanying the dashboard, \u201Cless than 1 percent of Australia\u2019s 2.5 million small businesses.\u201D are aware of the scheme. The second thing he says is, \u201CSecond, and more fundamentally, the object is based on the flawed assumption that small businesses are in a position of market strength to pick and choose among prospective large-business customers. The object fails to recognise the inherent power imbalance between large and small businesses.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo I quoted that because we are all of a view that we want to see more timely payments. That\u2019s why I said at the start of this bill that when I\u2019ve been looking at what we could do to make sure that we do get more timely payments, the specific measures I\u2019ve put in place, or intend to put in place, are much more effective and will be much more effective, and, in my view, are more practical\u2014namely, making sure and reinforcing that Government agencies should and will pay within 10 working days. That\u2019s $51 billion of expenditure, which is, roughly, about a third of the economy, and we will report their outcomes in a transparent way. Secondly, we want to extend that to other Crown entities, but we do need to go through a consultation process, and, of course, I\u2019m working with the Minister of Finance on it. So that\u2019s what we can do for Government in terms of existing payment times.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EBut the much more fundamental thing that I am particularly concerned about and want to encourage as much as possible\u2014particularly with small businesses\u2014is the use and uptake of e-invoicing. That\u2019s why we\u2019ll be asking Government agencies to put in place e-invoicing - capable systems\u2014and some of them have, but many of them don\u2019t\u2014and, secondly, encouraging and incentivising, rather than requiring, small businesses to adopt e-invoicing, which is probably one of the biggest digital enhancements that we can achieve in New Zealand and it will drive some of the biggest productivity gains, and that is by making sure that if you use e-invoicing, particularly with the Government, you\u2019ll get paid in an even shorter period of time of five working days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThen, the second aspect of it outside of Government is working with large businesses. When you are talking about big businesses, the group that Kirk Hope is talking about at Business New Zealand represents about 65 percent of GDP in New Zealand\u2014180\u00A0businesses\u2014and making sure that they have clear code around when they do pay small businesses. I take on board the Opposition\u2019s comments about large businesses not paying and the impact on cash flow\u2014I understand that\u2014but that is probably the biggest start we can make in terms of being clear with them about what are the payment times.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo that is the purpose of the bill. It\u2019s not necessarily saying that we want to make it easier or that there\u2019s no obligations on large businesses. It\u2019s actually quite the reverse, and this is what the package of elements that have been proposed for this bill are actually about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s about improving those payment times, and the simple fact is that you can go and get this information at any one point in time for a mere cost of approximately $35. That is why we think this is a waste of time, and the reason this is being done in urgency\u2014just to remind the House yet again for those who weren\u2019t here for the first reading speech\u2014is that the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment are about to commit at least $2 million to $3 million or possibly more on putting in a system that will mean that results are often 10 months out of date, and of course many large businesses are going to incur huge amounts of time putting in a system that at the end of the day, according to the Australian situation, will deliver no discernible benefits. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThat is why we\u2019re proposing to repeal this as soon as possible. It\u2019s to save the Government money and to save businesses money but also to put in a much more effective system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022bac299de4e864f1fbeffb1615c4b176b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bac299de4e864f1fbeffb1615c4b176b\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u0022323f8dc8b2d9478ba9fbcee0ec96eecb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022323f8dc8b2d9478ba9fbcee0ec96eecb\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I will absolutely try and engage here in a way that is a genuine debate with the Minister with regard to this issue, but I am yet to be convinced that what he is doing is what he thinks he\u2019s doing, because what he is talking about is a purpose of a bill which is not the purpose of this bill, plainly, if you read the bill. The bill is a repeal. It simply takes away the one thing that is there now and replaces it with zero. There is nothing in replacement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EIt is a situation where the Minister accepts there is a problem. In fact, he accepts there is a problem and has said so openly, and yet what he is doing is he\u2019s letting big business off the hook. He\u2019s saying, \u201CGovernment can do this.\u201D Well, Government actually has been doing this\u2014Government has been on a pathway to making sure that they do comply. This isn\u2019t about Government; this is about our biggest businesses holding it over our little businesses, and it is a distraction to talk about Government. Government should do its bit\u2014absolutely\u2014but so should our big businesses when faced with the stories like Reuben Davidson told of his constituent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not good enough\u2014absolutely not good enough\u2014and what the Australian legislation review did was, actually, not talk about getting rid of a law like this, and, in fact, their threshold was higher. It talked about adding and improving, and I am up for that conversation today. So you will see amendments on the Table, Minister, which talk about adding to this the very tools that the Australians are talking about, because, yes, we\u2019re all up for a conversation about prohibiting this behaviour, for example. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EThe IT system point I want to respond to, because while the IT system has been talked about as a waste of time for these big businesses, I\u2019d like New Zealanders to think about what that would mean. It means our big businesses will be keeping a record of what they are doing out there, whom they\u2019re paying, whom they\u2019re not paying, and how long it\u2019s taking them. That to me seems a really good use of money by a big company, because what it\u2019s doing is it\u2019s holding itself to account. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ESo when the Minister talks about how he\u2019s been in discussions about how we might get a voluntary code for these big $100 million operations, he is talking about a voluntary code based on\u2014what? No IT system and no reporting in this area? That\u2019s what I suspect. It will be in a vacuum of information. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ESo I take the point from the New Zealand First speaker today that data is important\u2014I agree. Data is important. Data is important, and it\u2019s important that our big businesses keep this kind of data. They\u2019re big businesses; they\u2019re not little ones. They\u2019re absolutely capable of keeping this information, and if they turn a blind eye to it, it\u2019s because it\u2019s in their interests. It is in their interests at the moment to not pay people, because they keep the interest, as my friend Ingrid Leary talked about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ESo we have to change the dial, and we shouldn\u2019t be dialling down and taking away the one tool that we\u2019ve got here. We should be dialling up in this area. We should be thinking, \u201CWhat can we do more to add to this legislation?\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ESo I say to the Minister that this is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. If you don\u2019t think this is strong enough, Minister, then it is time to add to this legislation, and you can do that cooperatively with the Labour Party and the Green Party because the Green Party and the Labour Party and the M\u0101ori Party are all absolutely keen on seeing our small businesses not suffer in the way that Mr Davidson talked about. We would like to see more, not less, in this area. We would like to see these big businesses play their part in New Zealand society, and not just skim off the top the interest rates by delaying payment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EThat has been going on, and it still is going on, but, actually, this legislation did make a change to the mentality of New Zealanders, because I think New Zealanders decided that wasn\u2019t OK, and I think even the National Party\u2019s statements on this, which say, \u201CThis is a problem we\u2019ve got to fix.\u201D\u2014they\u2019re influenced by this legislation and this discussion, which said that it was not OK. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EWe are halfway there, and we will go the whole way. There will be amendments on the Table today, Minister, which I would urge you to consider. Those are amendments that are about improving this legislation, not throwing the baby out with the bathwater.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ENow I wanted to make a comment about the earlier speech that the Minister made, because he said that the last piece of legislation\u2014this piece of legislation that has been repealed today\u2014was rammed through the select committee. Oh, if only we were so lucky to have had this legislation rammed through a select committee\u2014I\u2019d quite like to do that. I would quite like to have it rammed through a select committee so that the small businesses in New Zealand can have a say on what they think this is about and what they think the impact is, because that is the process that they\u2019re missing out on here. It is possible for the parties in the Opposition to put up amendments and talk to the constituents they\u2019ve got\u2014and they\u2019ve done a good job of doing that today, and you will see the results\u2014but that is not the same as our small businesses and our contractors coming to a select committee and talking about this stuff. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ENow, one of the comments that I got from one of the Government members today was to correct me over what I was saying when I said that contractors were affected by this, and talking about how it was just suppliers. That is exactly the kind of myth that I would love to see busted, not by me, but by the individuals who would come to a select committee and say, \u201COi! This happened to me. This happened to me for years, and I lost a lot of money over it. I lost my house over it. This happened to me because I was tied in to one of our big, very wealthy companies and they deliberately did not pay me.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI take the goodwill that I hear from Andrew Bayly about recognising there is a power differential here and that perhaps just shaming the companies and reporting the figures isn\u2019t enough. Maybe we need to go a bit further, and maybe it is time\u2014maybe this is our opportunity to do it. So I invite the Government to think right now about the amendments on the Table that would add to this legislation, would add teeth to it, perhaps, that weren\u2019t there, and would recognise, perhaps, further the power differential between the parties which means that someone who is dealing with one of our big companies\u2014and it is often a sole supplier or a trader or a contractor; all those people\u2014isn\u2019t in a position to say no to these terms. In fact, they are absolutely broken, often, by it, and it is totally reprehensible behaviour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ESo I ask the Government to consider those amendments, because these 100 days just seem to have been about tearing everything down, and the focus has all been on supporting those big, big companies. We\u2019ve had things like the trial periods for employees go out to our big companies, not our little ones. Our little ones were already in a different situation, but it\u2019s our big companies that have been focused on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI\u2019m worried about things like Labour\u2019s retention money provision in the building supply industry being pulled back as well, because it\u2019s very similar. It\u2019s part of a raft of seeing a problem. What happened in that situation is so similar. Our big companies were holding retention money from our builders\u2014our small businesses\u2014and they were actually holding that money and using it and abusing it when the work had been done. That kind of rip-off is a parallel to this one. We changed that law, and I was really proud of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI would hate to see that as part of the next wave of changes because this Government is so focused on the big players and has some sort of myth that keeping the big players flush with the money from the small players is, somehow, good for our productivity. I\u00A0say it is not. What is good for our productivity is getting small businesses like this paid on time, paid when they\u2019ve done the work, and not waiting, waiting, cap in hand, to be perhaps paid, maybe, when somebody wants to, knowing full well\u2014as the big businesses do\u2014that the small companies can\u2019t take this matter to the court because it\u2019s too expensive. They can\u2019t afford to offend the person that they rely upon for their income.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ESo I say let\u2019s make this a positive change today. Let\u2019s look at the amendments that we\u2019ve made, and, instead of tearing down the house and burning everything that anyone\u2019s ever done that\u2019s constructive in this country, let\u2019s make one of the actions in these 100\u00A0days be to build a better law, to build more protection around our small businesses, and to favour them for once over our big companies and actually change the dial in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022 data-id=\u00224e9fa99a077740f7baa04044c7967cda\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e9fa99a077740f7baa04044c7967cda\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I want to commend Helen White\u2019s call for the Government to pay attention to what we can do, because it is quite apparent that the Government is mostly concerned with breaking, not creating, and we have an opportunity to do so much better. Previous National Governments haven\u2019t been so destructive. Perhaps it\u2019s the major party\u2019s partnerships that are pushing them in this direction, because it is clear that the Business Payment Practices Act was not perfect\u2014that\u2019s true\u2014but does it need to simply be repealed and we\u2019re being left with nothing because you haven\u2019t got the ability to create something, to make something, to improve and to amend? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EWe can see the value, certainly, in ensuring Government agencies pay on time. That can be amended and that could be part of the Act. How do we incentivise small and medium sized enterprises to use e-invoicing? Now, that\u2019s something that I would like to know more about, because it\u2019s not simple to ask people who are dependent on rural broadband\u2014because our rural communities are suffering; those who are working in our national space\u2014to invoice without good connectivity. What are we going to do to ensure that e-invoicing is available to everyone? Are we going to also improve rural broadband? Are we going to deal with the infrastructure crisis? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EWe seem to chop and change with this new Government. What we have, clearly, is an upside down approach, because the Government is claiming they\u2019re simply going to repeal and then, at some point, replace. Again, we\u2019ve heard about the step backwards. We\u2019ve been taking a leap backwards over the last 100 days\u2014it\u2019s simply \u201CRepeal, repeal, repeal.\u201D\u2014and a clear code for big business is needed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard the Government say that they want to save businesses money, but which businesses do you want to save money, really? Is it the businesses who might donate, because this is a real concern for us? If the Government is simply wanting to ensure that big businesses don\u2019t meet their obligations and are not required to and it is not really concerned about the culture change we need in big business, then you would certainly not want to be repealing this legislation right now, or the Government would be concerned with making amendments to ensuring it serves its purpose. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EI think there is good reason to be concerned with the Australian scheme. It\u2019s an opportunity to learn from it; not an opportunity to say that because it\u2019s not perfect, we need to reject it. The perfect is the enemy of good in this. We need change. We need change for our small and medium enterprises. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EWe need change for our businesses so that people don\u2019t have to forgo their homes, so that they don\u2019t have to have to fail, so that our innovators, our risk takers, can thrive, can build a thriving economy, can build community enterprise, can pay their wages, can pay overheads, and can ensure regional development. What we\u2019re seeing with this backward approach is simply more of the same: simply supporting big business\u2014the big corps\u2014rather than the 97 percent of businesses in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EThe Government isn\u2019t looking after business; the Government is looking after corporates. That\u2019s what this repeal is all about. It is not looking after those who are the backbone of our economy. It\u2019s not looking after those who have families, who work, who employ people; it\u2019s looking after the corporates. That is what is so disappointing about this bill, because the Government has claimed in the past that they are the Government for business\u2014clearly not. Clearly, this Government is a Government for corporates; not for business, not for the majority of New Zealanders. That is a real concern. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EWe care. We care about our community, we care about our small businesses, we care about our small and medium enterprises, and we want to ensure that there is legislation and there is a cultural shift so that we support the good corporates who do right by our small businesses and we encourage the bad ones to do so much better. This was a small step that this Government wants to take away, repeal with nothing else, and not put anything in its place. The Government says that there\u2019s something nice coming, but hasn\u2019t provided the option for us to look at it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e700dcaa3df435b88fce00f0d7f7167\u0022\u003EHon Andrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve told you the seven different things we\u2019re going to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220de96944beb04f59825a302cbf82a38c\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The member told us the seven different things\u2014that\u2019s right\u2014and has simply placed a repeal of an Act in front of us. So that\u2019s the problem. The problem is that the member doesn\u2019t seem to have a clear idea about how we are going to support our small and medium enterprises in any meaningful way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EThere is clear evidence that there\u2019s a lack of understanding of the challenges they face, and we have heard evidence from across the bench. From our Labour colleagues, we have heard evidence of how they are struggling\u2014how our small and medium enterprises are doing it so hard. We have so many examples of people who are going to the wall because the payments do not come in on time, and this is why it is so disappointing that we can\u2019t hear from them. We can\u2019t have an opportunity to listen to them in select committee and make good decisions. We are rushing this through under urgency for no good reason, except that the member seems enamoured with urgency to make the changes that the member requests and requires. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t buy the argument that at the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment, there\u2019s going to be a blowout of costs. We do need IT and we do need data collection. There is no waste in ensuring we\u2019re doing something better; there is a waste in the loss of income to our small and medium enterprises that continues with the repeal of this Act. So I would urge the member to look at the amendments that are being put forward and to make some changes that will ensure that we\u2019ve got some teeth to ensure that we\u2019re not forgetting our small and medium enterprises, which are the backbone of our economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003ESimply, I think\u2014and I appeal to the member\u2014we have a responsibility to foster an economy that uplifts everyone, not just the privileged few, and that means looking after small and medium enterprises, not simply the corporate donors to the National Party coffers. So I would just like to reiterate that we hear again and again and again that the National Party wants to get us back on track, and yet all we\u2019ve seen is back on baccy\u2014back on baccy\u2014with the repeal of the smoke-free Act. There is so much more you can do, and repealing this Act is not going to get us there. Kia ora. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022 data-id=\u002240dcfe05dc3e432c8da07c78131c1611\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240dcfe05dc3e432c8da07c78131c1611\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. New Zealand businesses are in a thicket of regulation: compliance, the different laws we have to go through\u2014I mean, as a small-business owner, I think we all know how hard it is to keep track of all the different things that Government forces us to do. This sort of regulatory burden adds to the thicket of red tape. It adds to the cost of running businesses. It means that if we can do anything to relieve another burden on any type of business\u2014small, large, medium\u2014it\u2019s all important so that we can pass benefits on to customers by not spending extra. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EI think the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment has it at $26 for a paper invoice, instead of encouraging people into e-invoicing for $10. These sorts of things can improve this life for all New Zealanders when the costs to actually supply goods and services are relieved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EI have heard from on the other side of the House that this means that we are going to be mistreating our medium and small businesses. I think medium and small businesses need to be looking at who they\u2019re doing business with. It is something that everyone has to take responsibility for, and it doesn\u2019t mean that you can\u2019t already access information from your networks and from people you interact with about the business practices of the people whom you interact with. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba59a8533c2a467db72ec8444cb77ec4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba59a8533c2a467db72ec8444cb77ec4\u0022\u003ETANYA UNKOVICH (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of New Zealand First, and having been, well, a solopreneur for most of my working life, in a coaching and consulting small businesses, I can assure people on the other side that no one on this side wants to see small businesses fail. No one on this side wants to see late payment for small businesses or other solopreneurs out there who struggle with this. It is known\u2014we know about it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003EWhat we want for small business and for solopreneurs is to have the ability to have a more informed decision-making process when they are thinking about their potential customers. I know that smaller businesses will have access to data through the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE), but the reality is: will they use it? I know from speaking with many of my clients that what stresses them is compliance\u2014things they don\u2019t understand. They wouldn\u2019t know how to interpret the data that is held by MBIE. So these are some factors that we are taking into account, because they are specialists in a certain field but they\u2019re not specialists in business and in interpreting data. So that is why things like this stress them. What does stress them is having more compliance costs, and that is why New Zealand First is commending this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022 data-id=\u002209f888ce38cb4f45a626efa27fb5338f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002209f888ce38cb4f45a626efa27fb5338f\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise for a second time in this debate. I just want to acknowledge Mr Bayly, who is still here. Not often does the Minister stay to listen to the debate, so I want to just make mention of that, and for giving us the opportunity to eyeball you in this debate and have our points accepted by the Minister. I\u2019m sure you\u2019re here to ensure that you take all of the information that\u2019s provided from this side of the House and make the changes that need to be made to ensure that this is an awesome bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EAnyway, I feel for our small businesses at this time because, unfortunately, this particular bill favours corporations over small business. Like I\u2019ve said, 97 percent of small businesses here in Aotearoa are small businesses. That\u2019s 546,000 small businesses that are affected by this particular piece of legislation. The majority of M\u0101ori businesses are small to medium sized enterprises and so this will really affect our M\u0101ori small businesses, who we know firsthand have problems with ensuring that those people that they provide services and goods for pay their part of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EThis is not about online invoicing and manual invoicing; this is about paying on time. This piece of new legislation allows big businesses a four-month period to pay those bills. Small businesses don\u2019t have four months\u2014they don\u2019t have 120 days\u2014but they need to have those bills paid on time. If you\u2019ve got a company that has 20 people or less, they need to ensure that they can pay those wh\u0101nau, because the trickle-down effect and the impact of not paying those bills means that people cannot pay the rent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003ELook, we\u2019re in a cost of living crisis, as we speak. It means that people cannot pay their bills, cannot put food on the table, cannot get those kids to school, and now they\u2019re having to pay for their lunches because they\u2019re taking lunches away from those particular tamariki. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EThis is the trickle-down effect. It\u2019s not just the impact on the small businesses but those who work for those small businesses. So we need to make sure that we put belts and braces around legislation so that it ensures that the safety of all of those people who live in Aotearoa that work for those 546,000 small businesses here in Aotearoa is not impacted. But they will be impacted because that side of the House\u2014the Government\u2014want to ensure that they look after their corporate and rich mates. That\u2019s just the way it is. The between 2 percent to 10 percent that control 50 percent of this country\u2019s wealth\u2014that\u2019s who they\u2019re protecting in this particular legislation. They don\u2019t give a damn about those small-business owners. They don\u2019t give a damn about those people who work for those small businesses\u2014this is what the issue is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve got, in 2023\u2014according to Centrix figures\u201435 percent of companies having filed for liquidation, year on year, with construction among the worst. M\u0101ori make up most of the construction businesses in terms of being labourers and workers in that particular field\u2014M\u0101ori and our Pacific brothers and sisters. This is where the issues are, and so we need to make sure that those companies are being paid at the right time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EThis is not about invoicing. This is not about a data matrix. This is about ensuring that people can pay the bills, that people can feed their tamariki, and that people have the dignity of a living wage. This is what this issue is about. Let\u2019s not tinker around the sides, let\u2019s not decorate this Christmas tree with a whole lot of lights and glittery balls\u2014this is not about that. This is about ensuring that small businesses have the mana and the dignity to be able to survive but also to be able to pay those who work for them. We do not commend this bill to the House. Kia ora. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022565959be15894ad69d10ffba06c8d1fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022565959be15894ad69d10ffba06c8d1fd\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I wonder if this Government ever gets tired of simping for the big corporates and the 1 percent, because assuming that getting rid of a disclosure regime on late payments will actually do anything but simply benefit those who are already creaming it at the top is an illusion. Let\u2019s just be clear that what this Government is doing is simply making it easier for the big corporates to get away with and not be held accountable for late payments to those smaller business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s interesting, because in practice, with what the Government\u2019s been doing throughout the term, this has been a Government of just moving us backwards, repealing pieces of legislation, and offering no substantive alternatives. If I go back to the Business Payment Practices Bill\u2019s second reading, the debate on the Act that we\u2019re now repealing, the Minister at that time talked about\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201CWe recognise that businesses need to have prompt payments\u201D, but he also said he didn\u2019t think this was a solution. Fine! If he thinks that big businesses need to have prompt payments and then all he is presenting to us is repealing the disclosure regime that we have and not offering alternatives, he needs to be upfront to the community that all he actually wants to do is make it easier for those big businesses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThere are real economic costs to our communities and to small businesses as a result of these late payments. Let\u2019s make it clear that, actually, all that the status quo has enabled is accumulation of wealth at the top at the expense of everybody else, and, yes, this includes the petite bourgeoisie that, in theory, capitalism is supposed to support. But, in practice, all that we are seeing is a continuous accumulation of resources, and this Government is enabling it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ESo the Green Party won\u2019t be supporting this bill, simply by nature of the fact that it is just repealing a disclosure regime that could have been improved when the Government is offering no alternative and, at the same time, for a Minister that during the previous bill was complaining and calling on the previous Minister to get out and talk to people on the street, he seems really afraid of actually getting feedback around the repeal that he is putting forward. He\u2019s actually afraid of going through a select committee process and getting feedback from the smaller businesses and the workers, because if we look at the departmental disclosure statement, it\u2019s so clear that there was no adequate stakeholder consultation as part of the creation of this repeal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ESo he\u2019s just going off vibes. He\u2019s going off vibes and an ideology that will benefit those at the top. It\u2019s interesting that the speakers on the Government side talk about how they really worry about all the additional costs and compliance mechanisms that they have to go through, but then they have to caveat it with all businesses, including big corporates, because, actually, this bill only added a disclosure regime to those at the very top. Let\u2019s make it clear that, actually, this is not about supporting all businesses; it\u2019s about supporting those businesses that already have the resources and that benefit from withholding prompt payments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EAt the time of the second reading debate on the previous bill, the Minister also talked about what he thought the biggest issue at the time for him was: \u201CThe biggest issue is its focus on large companies.\u201D\u2014so he said it himself. The focus isn\u2019t broad compliance mechanisms; it\u2019s the fact that big businesses were being targeted by this legislation. These are the Minister\u2019s own words, and then he tried to deflect at the time. He said that, actually, in his view, Government departments were some of the biggest culprits in late payments\u2014OK, fine. If he thinks that more work needs to be done in ensuring that Government departments are prompt with their payments, he could be initiating work to actually address that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022445ea4a234e54fadb1df67629f3d0085\u0022\u003EHon Andrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: I have\u2014I have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253d8c55d010b4131ac1fb9ff2c18523f\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: But he could be presenting a bill rather than wasting our time in this place, simply simping for big businesses. If the Minister is so confident that he is doing the work on this, he could actually be introducing bills and having us do bills around this. So let\u2019s make it really clear: all this Government wants to do in this bill is repeal a disclosure regime that would have actually created accountability mechanisms, and, at the same time, I want to peg it back to the fact that he had an opportunity to improve the regime rather than scrapping it and benefiting those at the top. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u00225b39ac074a3a4057a7d61760e5e13b31\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b39ac074a3a4057a7d61760e5e13b31\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s quite incredible what we just heard. Clearly, the member Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March did not hear what the Minister said in his first reading speech, and indeed in his second reading speech. He is going to bring forward seven initiatives that will go much further than this current bill does and in a much more efficient way that doesn\u2019t add a whole lot of costs to businesses. We heard that it\u2019s going to cost $2 million to $3 million for the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment\u2019s own IT system, let alone the costs that the businesses would have to implement to get compliance up with this particular legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003ESome of the speeches seem to assume that the current legislation is saving all of the businesses from being not paid on time and that that is being forced by this legislation. That\u2019s not the case. It\u2019s a reporting Act\u2014that\u2019s all it is. That information is actually available from four other entities, plus Centrix\u2014which the Minister alluded to in his first reading speech\u2014for a cost of $35.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003ESo it\u2019s all there. This is just going to add costs and create a whole lot of inefficiencies. Therefore, I commend this wonderful bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022 data-id=\u00228111f74e8f0b49ab86d6f6059e002583\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228111f74e8f0b49ab86d6f6059e002583\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I think if we look at this bill, the legislation that we\u2019re repealing could have been the \u201CLook Before You Leap Bill\u201D, it could be called the \u201CKnow Before You Go Bill\u201D, and it could be called the \u201CKnowledge is Power Bill\u201D, and that would be good for small business. What this repeal could be called is the \u201CThink Big Bill\u201D or the \u201CLove Big Bill\u201D, because this is really the \u201CSave Big Business Money Bill\u201D\u2014that is what it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EI want to start by coming back to one of the pieces of text that I shared in my first speech on this bill, just in case some members missed the message in it the first time, because I think it\u2019s a really important message. It\u2019s a message direct from a small business, and it\u2019s a reminder that our small businesses are all about people. So this is a message: \u201CRunning a business is hard. Being an employer is hard. Paying for kai, staff, rent and the rest; is hard; and spending my time asking to be paid, over and over for mahi we\u2019ve already done \u2026 that\u2019s \u2026 hard!\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EThe message is pretty clear in that transcript from Sachiko, who owns Kai\u00A0Connoisseurs, a pretty impressive small business that punches above its weight. It\u2019s based in Hampshire Street in the heart of Aranui and it provides not just amazing fry bread, although I will go on once again to put it on record that I absolutely recommend that, but also jobs\u2014amazing jobs\u2014for the local community and a really, really good strong business in that community. The message is really simple: being a small business is hard, and please prioritise paying your bills. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019d also like to pick up on something that another member said just now in one of their speeches. I\u2019ll start by going back to the policy statement on the repeal: \u201CThe Act was put in place to address long business-to-business payment times by requiring large entities to disclose their payment practices on a public register.\u201D\u2014and this is the bit that I find insulting\u2014\u201CHowever, the Government\u2019s view is that most small businesses will not have time to search for payment data on the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment\u2019s Internet site and that, even if they can find it\u201D\u2014even if they can find it\u2014\u201Cand interpret it correctly, it would be unlikely to impact their decisions about who to do business with.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EThe implication here, in my opinion, is that we\u2019re suggesting\u2014and one member reiterated this in their speech just now\u2014that the people who own and run and are at the heart of our small businesses are somehow not smart enough or clever enough to be able to go online and look at a guide that tells them whether they\u2019re going to be paid and whether their business will survive. Now, what are they supposed to do instead with that time that they apparently don\u2019t have to go online and find that information? They\u2019re expected instead to just spend that time waiting for payment\u2014just waiting for payment. I think that\u2019s absolutely insulting, and I think it really disrespects the tenacity, the cleverness, the smartness, the intellect, the passion, the commitment, and the drive that our small-business owners have. I find that really insulting\u2014really insulting\u2014to our small businesses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ENow, the other part here, which it goes on to say, is that \u201CThe repeal of the Act will remove compliance costs that would have applied to large entities.\u201D, and that comes back to the \u201CLove Big Bill\u201D. So it makes sure that big business doesn\u2019t have to pay any more money to be in business, and all of the pressure goes on our small businesses to do whatever they can to survive, and \u201CGood luck to them.\u201D is the message this bill sends\u2014\u201CGood luck, good luck.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ESo, coming back to a point that I made earlier and that other members on this side of the House have reiterated, ultimately, this repeal is of legislation that makes sure 3 percent of businesses provide information to make it easier, to make it more viable, and to make it sustainable for the 97 percent of small businesses to stay in business, and that\u2019s in all of our interests. I don\u2019t think there\u2019d be a member in this House who would be prepared to suggest it\u2019s a good idea for small businesses to fail. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ENow, the Minister also spoke to there being seven other steps that are being taken to support small businesses. Well, why not take eight steps? Why not keep this in place and add your seven? If you really believe in backing small business, why limit yourself to seven steps? I say take eight. Now\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217ed149f268b40d0978117412eddaf3a\u0022\u003EStuart Smith\u003C/span\u003E: What about nine? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022885495665e86489b80af7ff7ce935b82\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: The member has suggested nine. He\u2019s seen the eight and raised me nine\u2014I\u2019m not going to argue against that. I\u2019d love to know what the suggestion for the ninth is\u2014I would love to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223eb969a9aa2a484ab68e5443122d45a6\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Gambling in the House! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf69ad6f322b4441882d36559e551dcd\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014know what the suggestion for the ninth is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019m going to read this one more time because I think this is a really, really important message to have on record that supports the argument to not repeal this bill: \u201CRunning a business is hard. Being an employer is hard. Paying for kai, staff, rent and the rest; is hard;\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cec92f97b2fd4001b13d7f492673c0f9\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: We know. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da199a948f5e4073b1878fdef93851e4\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll pause because there are members on that side of the House who holler back and say, \u201CWe know.\u201D They don\u2019t say, \u201CWe know.\u201D in the all-inclusive \u201CAll members in this House know.\u201D They say, \u201CWe know.\u201D in the exclusive \u201CWe are the only members of this House who\u2019ve run or owned or had small businesses\u201D\u2014who\u2019ve been employers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EIf there was a show of hands, I think that we would see that there are small-business owners and employers in every part of this House, and the argument constantly pushed from that side of the House that it\u2019s some exclusive little club that only members of those parties in Government have ever been a part of is absolutely a hollow argument. The fact that some of those members have been in small business and want to not do everything\u2014to not take eight steps or nine steps but only seven steps\u2014to support small businesses is, I think, pretty embarrassing. I would be embarrassed myself to be in this House and be pulling back on legislation like this that sets out to support the small businesses and to support the people, because let\u2019s not forget that it\u2019s easy to talk about small business and it\u2019s easy to take the people out of small business, but small business and small businesses are people, and that\u2019s ultimately who we\u2019re here to represent and who we are here to support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ENow, I didn\u2019t finish the quote that I was re-reading, so I\u2019m going to go back to it. I\u2019m going to pick up from the second line, which says, \u201Cspending my time asking to be paid,\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234fcc19678ba42a1853b50eaeacf39e3\u0022\u003EHon Andrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s going to be a long Friday, isn\u2019t it? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a446826e91848819ddbc309f3f83b52\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014\u201Cover and over for mahi we\u2019ve already done well that\u2019s \u2026 hard!\u201D The fact that members don\u2019t even want to hear it\u2014don\u2019t even want to hear it. Members just want to holler back, rather than hearing the very real testimony of a small-business owner in this House. They want to repeal a bill that sets out to give small business better service and better protection, and then they don\u2019t even want to hear what those small-business owners have to say. I think that\u2019s a concern. I would be a concerned if I was part of a Government that didn\u2019t want to hear from small and local businesses. I\u00A0would be very concerned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003EWith the last 45 seconds that I have\u2014the last 45 seconds that I have\u2014I would like to say that, essentially, what\u2019s happening here is in the David and Goliath battle between small business and big business, this repeal takes the slingshot away from David. It says, \u201CGo out there and take on Goliath. We won\u2019t do anything to help you, but good luck. Good luck\u2014good luck.\u201D It\u2019s the \u201CGood Luck, Think Big, Love Big Business Repeal Bill\u201D, and I think those members should think twice about what they\u2019re doing to serve and represent the people who are in small businesses in their community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022 data-id=\u00225f0edce1105040038e05e39b959b0342\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f0edce1105040038e05e39b959b0342\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019d just like to get us back on track in this debate here today, because we seem to have moved off the issues. We totally agree with that side of the House that we are the \u201CGovernment of Small Business\u201D. We are aspirational for small business, and we want our economy to get ahead, but that is not with regulation, red tape, and compliance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003EComing back to the issues, we agree that businesses need to pay on time, and we\u2019re not refuting that. But that is not done with more regulation and red tape being inflicted on business, which costs more and takes more time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003EI\u2019d just like to read out some of the things that our Minister for Small Business and Manufacturing has already said in his speech\u2014which, obviously, on that side of the House, you aren\u2019t listening to\u2014that we will be doing, and that\u2019s reinforcing the requirement for Government agencies to pay ordinary creditors and ramping up the adoption of e-invoicing. That\u2019s innovation. That\u2019s innovation, which we understand and which, obviously, on that side of the House, you don\u2019t understand. There are many\u00A0things\u2014there are actually seven things\u2014that we\u2019re going to implement. We\u2019ve got a plan, and it\u2019s not done through having more regulation. So I commend this bill to the\u00A0House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022b531ca44a6434361a6875baf2a8cc6cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b531ca44a6434361a6875baf2a8cc6cb\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: I do want to acknowledge the enthusiasm in this House\u2014maybe some members need morning tea\u2014but if there are going to be discussions, there are a lot of places out in the hallways for you to have that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u00226b4ba0e1be814a90b639c326164e633a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226b4ba0e1be814a90b639c326164e633a\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019d like to just take a moment to talk about the use of urgency, and I raise this because the Minister for Small Business and Manufacturing himself raised it in his contribution. I think, for the benefit of those watching from home, it\u2019s good to pause and look at what is happening and has happened over the last 97 or 98 days in terms of the use of urgency and what that means. We\u2019ve got a little bit of time to do that, and this bill, again, is being passed under urgency, but there\u2019s not a lot of knowledge out there about what urgency involves. What it does, Mr Speaker, as you well know, is it extends the hours in which we can sit, but it is also something that is passed by a simple majority. So there are no real checks and balances to the use of urgency, apart from, perhaps, the media\u2014the fourth estate\u2014picking up and questioning it, or apart from people at home questioning why a Government would want to put things through urgency, which diminishes the checks and balances through the democratic process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EUrgency enables a block of work to be finished. We\u2019ve heard that the Government is wanting to finish its block of work under its 100-day plan\u2014its coalition agreement\u2014but that is no justification to be using urgency to move bills that do not speak to what was campaigned on in the election. To contextualise this, that includes really significant pieces of legislation like the Resource Management Act reforms, like the smoke-free reform, like Te Aka Whai Ora. We\u2019ve just heard announced at an event today that there is going to be fast-track consenting bill introduced to the House tomorrow. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThis bill that we are looking at now sits in that suite of bills that have been where urgency has been used, and what that does mean is, obviously, there won\u2019t be a select committee process. That means also that today, over the next few hours, we will see this repeal bill go through; normally, that would take a minimum of four days. So the reason I\u2019m raising this is because we are not going to have a select committee stage here for this. It means we are not going to hear from the voices of small business, which is why so many people on this side of the House have been bringing that voice into the House, because, once again, we don\u2019t have the opportunity to hear directly from those businesses that would have supported this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EI can say that as somebody who has owned a small business, and as somebody who knew what it was like to lose sleep at night, not knowing if I could pay contractors because somebody in the video industry supply chain that I worked in when I made TV shows had been late in paying me and had not put me on notice of that, I would lie awake at night thinking, \u201CHow am I going to pay my contractors? Are they going to want to never come and work for me again if I\u2019m late? Am I going to need to get some bridging finance?\u201D I had no certainty as a small-business owner, and that is really what we are talking about today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EWe can take out all the window dressing, as Rawiri Waititi has said, but at the end of the day, this is really about paying people on time and giving them certainty, and nobody needs certainty more in the business environment than small business. Cash flow is absolutely critical. When we applied for funds from Creative New Zealand, there had to be a cash-flow template, and that was worked out really carefully so that we as small-business owners could manage the cash flow and could meet those payments. That was all very fine in theory, but if somebody in that supply chain was late in their payment, it had a knock-on effect right through the whole system, all of whom were really small players, apart from the big TV networks. So it was a really perilous, perilous industry to work in, and my heart goes out to those who do run small businesses and do have to deal with that uncertainty on an ongoing basis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EI question the Minister: when he talks about a voluntary code, I\u2019m deeply suspicious of that code, because, as Helen White pointed out, we don\u2019t have the infrastructure in place yet for it to be implemented. There is no certainty that the code will attach the reputational risk to big business that is available to them in the current Act, and when we speak about big business, we are speaking here about big tobacco, big pharmacy, big fast-food business, and those who want to pay their employees just the minimum wage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESo, in my final moments, I also just want to say to the Minister that we had both agreed about proportional approaches to regulation. That\u2019s what I believe the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment was doing in this situation. It\u2019s a shame he\u2019s not giving them the opportunity to do that, and I cannot support this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00223236d60f4340426b840703afc89bbcd7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223236d60f4340426b840703afc89bbcd7\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022a82dd56c0d12444f9d0bcd8cb5761d1e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a82dd56c0d12444f9d0bcd8cb5761d1e\u0022\u003ENANCY LU (National):\u003C/span\u003E I am glad that I\u2019m able to stand for a second time to commend this bill to the House, because I joined this Parliament, this House, because I see so much more aspiration for New Zealand and for many, many of our small, medium, and large businesses and employers because they have the aspiration to grow New Zealand so that we have a bigger economy, so that every individual in New Zealand gets better outcomes at the end of the day. I came to this House to support faster innovations and to support creative innovations that small, medium, and large businesses can actually go out, grow their business, and bring more for everyday New Zealanders. So, therefore, I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u00225f0e2a75cac74763b73db8a3e7ad3ee6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f0e2a75cac74763b73db8a3e7ad3ee6\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E I want to acknowledge Minister Andrew Bayly, one of the more thoughtful and amusing and entertaining members on that side of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f0a36b4f8b848d889a22b037825e5cc\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a compliment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff17ce6555fe4bf38f0e4ca05da87b5b\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: I had the pleasure of serving alongside him on the Finance and Expenditure Committee last term, and we did a lot of good work together. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThis is an interesting debate, because on the face of it, if you take the rhetoric at face value, there\u2019s some level of agreement across the House, and the Minister, when he spoke, was at pains to make the point that he agreed with the problem definition. Of course everybody wants to see small businesses paid on time, and I would submit that there is a lot of agreement that small businesses play a critical part in the economy. They account for 97 percent of all of our enterprises, they employ vast numbers of New Zealanders, there\u2019s half a million or more small businesses, and I would say everybody in this House recognises that the people who start and run small businesses work incredibly hard. They are workers as well as owners and entrepreneurs, and they take enormous risks often with their family assets in order to start small businesses. So they deserve all of the support that our Parliament and Governments can give them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe Minister also recognised, if I heard it correctly, that big businesses have routinely been late payers and so there is a problem that needs to be solved, and what I heard him argue was that he just has a different way of solving this problem. Now, Ingrid Leary, my colleague, made the point that for small businesses, security of cash flow is one of the most important things, and I think everybody can see that. When people don\u2019t pay on time, it puts on huge stress and puts those businesses at risk. One way to think about it is that you\u2019ve got some of the largest, most powerful corporations in the land routinely late paying small businesses because they know they can get away with it, and they\u2019re either doing it deliberately to look after their own cash flow, using small businesses, effectively, as a bank, taking advantage of no-interest loans from struggling small-business owners.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe Minister says he has a different way of doing it, so what\u2019s his plan? He told us that he\u2019s working on getting Government departments to step up and do their bit and pay on time. He is pledging to consult with Crown entities\u2014we don\u2019t know how long that will take\u2014he\u2019s talking about a voluntary code of conduct for large corporations, and he\u2019s talking about incentivising e-invoicing. But is that a credible plan to deal with this problem? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7138a3ad29e4a79917a553ae4a8ae0d\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aea57960508547468c5883261a6362a2\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: Is it? I don\u2019t see it. We\u2019re talking about an entrenched behaviour by large private corporations systematically late paying to the detriment and disadvantage of struggling small-business owners from one end of this country to the other, and a voluntary code of conduct? These companies are getting massive financial benefit from this errant behaviour, and a voluntary code of conduct is intended to change that behaviour! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s a word for where you profess sincere concern for a problem, but, actually, your actions don\u2019t reflect that. There\u2019s a word for it, and it\u2019s gaslighting. I can\u2019t help but conclude that that is what is going on here. There\u2019s a professing of concern or feeling that these small-business owners are being ripped off, but, actually, what does this bill do? It takes away a public disclosure regime that would name and shame the large corporations that are ripping off small businesses. It takes that away and replaces it with a voluntary code of conduct. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard a lot from members on the other side about compliance costs and red tape, and how terrible compliance costs and red tape are. Yes, it\u2019s true that the legislation that\u2019s being repealed will remove compliance costs for our large private corporations\u2014it will\u2014because they will no longer have to comply with a public disclosure regime. But if there wasn\u2019t a problem to be solved in the first place, we wouldn\u2019t need to ask them to comply with a disclosure regime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI\u2019m afraid to say it, but this is an example that we see so often with the National Party, and that is a deference to powerful, vested interests. The National Party loves to say it\u2019s the party of small business, but, time and time again, they actually line up and defend the interests of large private corporations, of big business, and that is transparently what is happening here. They don\u2019t want to impose a cost on the largest and most powerful corporations in New Zealand in order to create a more level playing field and a fairer and more competitive environment for our country\u2019s small businesses, and that reveals something about this National Party that is in their DNA. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EIt always amuses me that the self-styled party of free enterprise is very, very rarely ever willing to use the levers of Government to actually make the economic environment more competitive. Late payments by big companies are anti-competitive. They are taking money out of the till of small businesses: the garages, the barbers, the suburban accountants, the shop owners, and the small entrepreneurs. It is anti-competitive. It makes it harder for small businesses to become medium-sized enterprises. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EIt is inherently anti-competitive, and yet the party in Government\u2014the National Party\u2014don\u2019t seem to care about that. They don\u2019t. Let\u2019s judge them by their actions, not by their words. They are not willing to use the powers of Government to make a more competitive economy, and it gives the lie to the idea that they are truly the party of free enterprise. If they looked to their ideological inspiration in the true advocates of free-enterprise capitalism in the United States, they would see in the United States a much more full-throated commitment, by even parties of the right, to use law, to use policy, and to use the institutions of Government to drive good competition policy to make markets work for everybody. Instead, what we see is this deference to self-interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe choice here is very clear: is this House willing to impose a cost on the largest corporations in New Zealand in order to create a more competitive market and give struggling small-business owners a break? That\u2019s the choice, and my colleague Reuben Davidson was right when he bridled against the suggestion from the other side of the House that small-business owners somehow didn\u2019t have it in them to look up on the web a public database that showed data on whether companies are good payers or not\u2014a name and shame database. Somehow, they are not capable of using a search engine and looking at a public database. That is kind of insulting, and it disrespects the people whom the legislation that\u2019s being repealed today was designed to protect and support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EMy colleagues are also right that this is yet another example of this Government using urgency and using the time of this House to repeal legislation without any clear or credible plan to replace it. It is the theatre of the politics of revenge\u2014that\u2019s all it is\u2014and I\u2019m afraid to say that it actually doesn\u2019t do justice to a party that claims to be a Government for all of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0a3c0c5853942bdb4751d168e62b6ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0a3c0c5853942bdb4751d168e62b6ac\u0022\u003EDAVID MacLEOD (National\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I don\u2019t think there\u2019s any argument throughout the whole House, from anything that I\u2019ve heard today, that we don\u2019t want big corporations to pay their bills in a timely fashion. We don\u2019t want small and medium sized enterprises to be banks. In fact, you can\u2019t even call them a bank, because it\u2019s interest-free. Banks charge interest with regard to things like that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003EWhat we do want, though, is legislation that is efficient and is effective in delivering on the purpose that it serves, and we\u2019ve already got evidence being presented by the Minister that across the Tasman Sea, that is not the case. So we need to be outcomes-focused. We are trying to make sure that there is good behaviour by all businesses with the methods with which they\u2019re actually paying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003EThe Minister has also presented what he plans to do with the seven initiatives, the seven focus areas, subsequent to the repealing of the particular piece of legislation. This is not big businesses versus small to medium sized enterprises; this is about attacking the core issue that we\u2019re talking about. For that reason, I\u2019m happy to commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b336ad1e8f56442faf6ca67788f66553\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Business Payment Practices Act Repeal Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000222\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00228b4482e2b97949a4a2fa40046f7c3eda\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b4482e2b97949a4a2fa40046f7c3eda\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for committee stage immediately. I declare the House in committee for consideration of that bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222d42448525be460ca5e3b8362b3077ba\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e41d588670c7486f94e65cf1e5541b92\u0022\u003EPart 1  Repeal of Business Payment Practices Act 2023 and related matters\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002261b89a2f3fc94a9db33a3279e3acf918\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261b89a2f3fc94a9db33a3279e3acf918\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Business Payment Practices Act Repeal Bill. We come first to Part 1. This is the debate on clauses 3 to 6\u2014\u201CRepeal of Business Payment Practices Act 2023 and related matters\u201D. The question is that Part 1 stand part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u00222044916b16ad4429a5981047015e778e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222044916b16ad4429a5981047015e778e\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. It\u2019s great to see that the Minister for Small Business and Manufacturing has engaged with the debate, and I know how passionately he feels about competition law, having sat on a couple of select committees with him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EI do have some questions around the general policy statement at the beginning of the bill, in Part 1, which talks about what the purpose of this repeal is, because there\u2019s a really interesting statement where it has been asserted that small businesses will not have time to search for payment data on the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment website and that, even if they do find it and interpret it correctly, it\u2019s unlikely to impact their decisions about who to do business with. Now, I find that quite an astounding explanation of what the purpose of this repeal is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s an assertion that small businesses don\u2019t have time to do their due diligence. In\u00A0fact, small businesses, in my experience, are more likely to do due diligence on anything to do with their business because it is such a vulnerable place for them to be in a market awash with big players. So it behoves small business to make sure that they are dealing with reliable, trusted business associates in their supply chain, and, certainly, in my time when I had a TV production company, I made sure I did my due diligence to find out as much data as I could about those that I was transacting with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s also an assertion that even if they can find it and interpret it correctly\u2014now, this seems very patronising language to be putting into the explanation of why you would be repealing an Act. It is suggesting, as one of my colleagues quite rightly said in the debate, that small-business owners somehow do not have the capacity to interpret data in a way that maybe big business does. I\u2019m not sure what the comparator is here. Perhaps it\u2019s that they may not be able to interpret it sufficiently compared with the public sector or compared with those people who are employed in high-paying jobs. I\u2019d really like to know the assumption that the Minister made that led to these assertions that small-business owners do not know how to interpret data in a way that others perhaps may be able to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThen it goes on even more to say that it\u2019s unlikely to impact their decisions about who to do business with. Now, that seems to me to be a real admission that there is a David and Goliath situation in the market, and certainly the report that the Minister alluded to that came from Australia and the review of their legislation also acknowledged that there are market-dominant players and that it\u2019s difficult for small business sometimes to have as many choices. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESo this here seems to be an admission by the Minister in this repeal bill that there isn\u2019t a fair and competitive landscape that small business can compete in. Now, that seems to me to go against the purposes of the bill and to show that, actually, what the Act does is it does have that mechanism to try and level the playing field. So I\u2019d really like the Minister to provide some answers about that. It\u2019s simply not good enough, in my assertion, to say \u201COh well, businesses won\u2019t be able to do much about that anyway, so too bad.\u201D when we have an Act in place\u2014and we have an Act in place until later today, I\u00A0suspect\u2014that does the very thing that the Minister, I would have thought, wanted to do, as I said at the start of my contribution, which is to make the landscape more competitive, fairer, and better for all business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThe other thing is that the Minister, in his contribution, has alluded to a plan. I just want to put on the record that this is a smart Minister who knows that, in 100 days, we haven\u2019t seen many plans from this Government, if any. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESo he\u2019s saying he has a plan, but, as I raised in the second reading, there is proportionality available through the regulation mechanisms. The Minister knows that very well. He and I have worked together on proportionality in terms of other frameworks to do with the Reserve Bank, and that seemed to satisfy him. So I\u2019d like to understand why, in this particular case, the Minister isn\u2019t able to apply that proportionality principle. Is this just politicking, as has been asserted by the Hon Phil Twyford, or has he got some real reservations about that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee1aed1dd1094f6383e3de4ff2df860e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee1aed1dd1094f6383e3de4ff2df860e\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY (Minister for Small Business and Manufacturing):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to address a couple of those issues, and thank you for the contribution. I have already acknowledged and said that there is an issue with businesses, particularly smaller businesses, paying late, so there is no disagreement across the House. The issue, as I\u2019ve continuously said, is that it is an issue of how do you address this. And the proposed approach that the Government put forward in the previous bill, which we\u2019re going to repeal, was not a viable solution\u2014that is the essence of it. And what I\u2019ve put up is a number of initiatives\u2014seven of them\u2014to try and deal with the issue of late payment. Now, I don\u2019t need to go through a process of requiring a new bill to do those; most of those can be done without requiring new legislation. That\u2019s the first point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe second point that she raises around the explanatory note is this issue about small-business owners knowing where to get this data. And the first issue is whether they know that this data is available. Now, I think there\u2019s an issue of understanding where we sit. We sit in this grand House here, and we\u2019re very aware of Government agencies, but, actually, when you get out and you talk to small businesses\u2014and I quoted the three locations in my earlier speech: Porirua, West Auckland, or Tauranga\u2014many of them do not know and wouldn\u2019t be able to quote you the full name of what we would colloquially refer to as MBIE\u2014Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment\u2014and wouldn\u2019t even know where to find this type of information. Even if you ran a very expensive process to try and make them aware of the data, many would not know it, because simply they do not understand Government entities, unlike members of the House. And I back up that statement by saying that in the review in Australia, where they\u2019ve had this arrangement in place since 2020, the Minister, in his summary of the scheme, noted only 1 percent of Australian entities knew where to find this information. That\u2019s a crucial part of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EBut the third element that she raises, even if you can find the data and you\u2019re smart enough to find it, is, as I said in my opening speech, that data could be 10 months out of date. So, then, the business owner\u2019s got to sit there and work out\u2014interpret, calculate, whatever you want to call it\u2014whether that data is still appropriate. And I\u2019d put it to you that 10-month-old data about payment systems, about when they paid the money, is actually quite unreasonable and actually not that effective and useful for a small-business owner. As I\u2019ve said on countless occasions, and as I kept saying during the select committee process, why doesn\u2019t the Government recognise that they can go to four credit agencies\u2014and I gave the cost\u2014for a mere sum of $35, get up-to-date information on payment systems and times, and actually get a lot more information that\u2019s absolutely relevant to due diligence considerations, rather than spend at least many millions for the Government, but multiple millions across industry coming up with an out-of-date system? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u002243bbf83888d94e6c9c8406b57ad13b63\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243bbf83888d94e6c9c8406b57ad13b63\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I\u2019d like to ask you, Minister, to consider the statements that you\u2019ve just made about how you want to really improve things. I\u2019d like you to read and listen to the submissions that are made to you in this exchange that are proposed amendments that would do what it seems to be your intention to strengthen rather than soften the approach in this situation. So I won\u2019t talk to all those amendments now, because I want to have a meaningful exchange.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EBut I, first of all, want to talk about the issue of whether there is any red tape in the one that you\u2019ve just raised about people actually seeing this information that you\u2019re talking about. So my understanding of this situation is that the reporting that would be done is on key issues, and, every six months, a big corporation\u2014a very big one\u2014would have to actually gather and report that information about if they are actually delaying payments, etc., and then they would give it to the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE), who are our biggest agency. So it\u2019s not the same as Australia, because we have MBIE; it\u2019s a little bit different. The companies that are involved are not the same as Australia either; it\u2019s also a different group of companies, so the negotiation was down to $33 million, and $10 million of suppliers. So they\u2019ve got 10 million bucks out there that they\u2019re owed at any one time and they\u2019re not paying that group of suppliers\u2014that\u2019s the mischief that we\u2019re getting at. So I\u2019d love your comments on this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ESo my understanding is that\u2019s the data we\u2019re gathering and we\u2019re getting it to be reported at MBIE, which is the body in New Zealand that does things like\u2014for small businesses, it\u2019s the place you go if you want a builder for an employment agreement. So\u00A0I would dispute that people don\u2019t know, and I wondered whether you would have information that is about whether people use the builder, for example, which is a product that MBIE has put out for small businesses. I, for one, have used that builder, I know lots of small businesses that have, and I wonder if you\u2019ve got any data about something that\u2019s an established product used by small businesses and whether it\u2019s used in this country, because it\u2019s not really the same when we\u2019re talking about Australia with a different threshold of amount, etc., and a different entity involved. So I\u2019d like to know whether you gathered that data at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI note that when this Act that you are repealing was going through last time, you actually suggested a trial. You did it by a Supplementary Order Paper (SOP), you suggested a trial\u2014I\u2019m sorry, Madam Chair\u2014the Minister, in his other capacity, as a member of the Opposition at that time, put up an SOP which was to suggest a trial. One\u00A0of the Amendment Papers you\u2019ll see is about a proposal which does just that in this situation: it extends the time so we can see what the effect is. So I would like the Minister to consider that and I\u2019d like to come back and discuss that with him at a later time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EBut I\u2019d like to go through the recommendations from the Australian report, which the Minister is relying on, and talk about that. The Minister, as I understand it, has said today that what he wants to do is strengthen this, that we have a problem, we need to strengthen it, and the Australian report has given some concern to him and that he has a lot of faith in the Australian report. So one of the things the Australian report, for example, does is that it suggests a prohibition on this kind of behaviour. That\u2019s actually what it does. It\u00A0says, \u201CDon\u2019t get rid of this; add to it. Look at a prohibition.\u201D I\u2019d like the Minister just to think about that one issue at the moment, and I will come back and talk about the others, but I don\u2019t want to flood him, and I would love an exchange. So would he consider a prohibition on this kind of behaviour, where we say that it\u2019s not OK for businesses? There\u2019s no red tape involved in that. None. Absolutely no red tape if we say, \u201CIt is not acceptable for you to not pay your creditors.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ESo I would point him to the amendment on this point that talks about a prohibition, and it says that there\u2019s a prohibition, so we wouldn\u2019t just repeal; we would replace and we would do a prohibition on the late payments of over three months. Now, that\u2019s quite a generous time frame, so I haven\u2019t gone for something that\u2019s the sun, the moon, and the stars here. Why aren\u2019t we today, rather than taking away the one thing we\u2019ve got, looking at this and saying, \u201CLet\u2019s not throw the baby out with the bathwater; let\u2019s improve it, let\u2019s put a prohibition in.\u201D? If we\u2019re relying on the Australian report, it\u2019s right at number one of the bullet points: prohibit unfair payment practices; do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ESo I won\u2019t put all of them. I\u2019ve got other amendments. I\u2019d like the chance to talk to them, and my colleagues would like the chance to talk to their amendments. But I\u2019d really like you to address why we are not prohibiting behaviour that we all agree, in this House, as far as I understand it, is actually really despicable behaviour. Why aren\u2019t we prohibiting it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022a992489895834a7aa24b26b939a6b491\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a992489895834a7aa24b26b939a6b491\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY (Minister for Small Business and Manufacturing):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks, Madam Chair. The issue around payment terms\u2014there is a difference between suppliers and contractors contracting with a business and agreeing payment terms and whether in fact the entity that should be paying meets the contractual arrangements. If that occurs and they do not fulfil the bargain of the agreement, then that\u2019s subject to rules around that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EOne of the initiatives I\u2019ve noted is making sure of, and raising the awareness of, existing redress options under the Fair Trading Act. So I\u2019ve already noted that that is one of the specific things as part of the package of things I\u2019d like to do to make sure that people are aware that there are redress options under the Fair Trading Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EBut your wider issue about payment times and mandating it\u2014it\u2019s interesting that you\u2019re looking at the Australian response. I read the Australian response very carefully because it\u2019s a very similar scheme. You made some points that it was different, organisationally different, entities involved, but, actually, largely, in the main, it\u2019s very similar. But the Minister states very carefully and specifically, \u201CSeveral stakeholders propose mandating maximum payment times for small businesses.\u201D On the face of it\u2014and I think all of us think, well, maybe that could be an option, although people could contract out of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EInitially, I considered mandating payment times might be an effective approach, but following deeper analysis, including considering those in comparable jurisdictions overseas, I found mandating would create problems that would overwhelm its usefulness and do more harm than good for small business. These problems include complexity in trying to identify critical payment times, creating perverse incentives for existing fast paths to slow their payments to avoid the mandated time, unwillingness of most small businesses to actually identify problems, and large businesses reducing their procurement from small businesses in favour of others. So I don\u2019t accept the idea. I think conceptually it would be great to do it, but, in practice, I don\u2019t think it\u2019s actually a viable option.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022bcdb64e5deda4e5bbb6dd182077043fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bcdb64e5deda4e5bbb6dd182077043fd\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. The Minister for Small Business and Manufacturing has mentioned his opening speech several times, and there are a number of issues from that speech that I think we will want to discuss during this stage of the bill, and, in particular, the seven or so steps he proposes we should be taking. But I want to talk about something else the Minister said in his opening speech, which suggests that we do have the space to go through each of those options and have a thorough discussion of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EHe described the process for the original Business Payment Practices Bill, and he said\u2014and this is almost exactly the right words; I couldn\u2019t find the actual written transcript, the Hansard, but I did listen to the speech twice\u2014that that bill was ram-roaded through the select committee. That\u2019s pretty much an exact quote\u2014ram-roaded through select committee. So I went and looked at the select committee process for the original bill. It was referred to the select committee on 8 November 2022. It was reported back on 26 April 2023, so it spent 169 days at select committee, and reading the select committee report, we can see a number of amendments and changes that were made in order to make the particular model work better, because, obviously, that\u2019s what select committees do. There is the National Party\u2019s minority view in there, of course. Then there\u2019s the committee membership, so you can see the people who participated in the discussion, including Andrew Bayly, who is now the Minister. So it was quite an extensive process, which was responsive to what other people suggested with respect to that bill. Yet the Minister has described it as being ram-roaded through select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EHere we are in urgency, and this particular bill is being rushed through\u2014a first reading, a second reading, the committee of the whole House stage, and a third reading\u2014bang, bang, bang\u2014following after each other. I suppose there are two thoughts here. One says we are entitled to a very generous committee stage on this bill. The Minister has mentioned in his opening speech seven other measures that he wants to take, and I would like to examine those in the committee of the whole House. I think we\u2019ve got plenty of time\u2014I hope\u2014available to discuss that, but, more importantly, the Minister has described a process of 169 days as being ram-roading a bill through select committee. Yet here we are in urgency debating this amendment bill\u2014bang, bang, bang, bang.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo I just wonder if the Minister could contrast the two processes\u2014given that we don\u2019t have the luxury, because we haven\u2019t been afforded it, of discussing his bill fully at select committee\u2014and tell us how he feels that this discussion should go. In particular, I would like to note for the benefit of the committee those seven measures. I am going to ask the Minister to go through them at various stages, because he has talked about them already in his speeches and, I think, he has opened up discussion on them. So, if you could, Minister, just tell us a little bit about what the difference is between ram-roading something\u2014it was 169 days\u2014and this urgency process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u0022380a79a4d2b9499aa466cdc686157ba3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022380a79a4d2b9499aa466cdc686157ba3\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, I wanted to ask you about one of those things that you\u2019ve raised\u2014oh sorry, Madam Chair; I wanted to ask the Minister for Small Business and Manufacturing about one of the things that he\u2019s raised as an alternative to this, because there\u2019s been a lot made about e-invoicing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ENow, I\u2019ve actually got no problem with e-invoicing\u2014fill your boots. I\u2019m thrilled to see e-invoicing promoted, and I\u2019m also thrilled to see Government invoices paid on time. Those are good measures. But what is the problem with doing both? I mean, this is a situation where we could build on this bill some more teeth. I\u2019d be thrilled to see that too. And we could have e-invoicing. Why is the Minister saying we have to pick one or the other? Because what I\u2019m worried about is the signal that this sends. It goes to my friend the Hon Phil Twyford\u2019s point about gaslighting\u2014right? He talked about that this is fundamentally behaviour that is anti-competitive, it\u2019s mean-spirited, it\u2019s undermining the productivity of our small businesses, it\u2019s hurting real, live people, and yet it\u2019s being described as somehow helping them, to take away this one tool. Why aren\u2019t we adding tools rather than taking them away? I\u2019d like an answer to that before I go on. So I\u2019m happy to sit down and have that exchange.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EBut if the Minister\u2019s not ready to talk, I\u2019d like to also respond to the comments made about using the fair pay system, or the fair-trade agreement. The Minister has suggested that he thought about prohibiting this behaviour, and the report clearly recommends prohibiting the behaviour from Australia. He thought about that, but he decided against it because it would be better, as far as I\u2019m hearing it, to point these businesses towards the legislative ability to look at this. That\u2019s what they could do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EWell, they could also do it by contract. Often, these payments aren\u2019t being paid even in a contractual time frame; they are often a breach of contracts which say, \u201Cinvoice will be paid within seven days\u201D or \u201Cinvoice will be paid within a month\u201D, and they are being breached. They are breaches of contract. Those tools of actually suing on that are not working because they\u2019re expensive. So prohibiting and allowing a specific focus on it is quite different from that. It\u2019s the Government taking the lead in these situations, saying, \u201CThat\u2019s not OK. That\u2019s just not OK.\u201D, versus a civil reaction. There\u2019s a lot of things that would breach our law that people can\u2019t do a lot about, and it\u2019s that Government lead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI also wondered if he could talk about the nudge effect of the legislation. So when Government does something\u2014like it prohibits smoking or it actually does something like this, it says, \u201CIt\u2019s not OK; you will report.\u201D\u2014it\u2019s a process of public scrutiny, and it\u2019s, basically, changing the norms and values of your society. It\u2019s saying that this is not OK. This nudge effect has clearly had a place here, because I told a story earlier in one of my speeches about somebody at Fonterra, and my understanding is Fonterra no longer don\u2019t pay people months in. So there is a nudge effect of this legislation. It says, \u201CIt\u2019s not OK; you\u2019re going to have to report on it.\u201D, and you get a change in behaviour. If you take away the Government\u2019s saying, \u201CIt\u2019s not OK.\u201D, and you say, \u201CIt is OK.\u201D\u2014because, effectively, that\u2019s what we\u2019re doing today: we\u2019re saying it\u2019s OK not to pay your people until we come up with, perhaps, some scheme where you may volunteer a different approach under your code, or we will work in a different way. Until then, we\u2019re saying it\u2019s OK now not to pay people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EWhat has the Minister been advised with regard to the nudge effect of this behaviour, whether in fact it\u2019ll now send a signal out saying, \u201CIt\u2019s OK\u201D? Because that is of great concern to me, that this 3 percent of businesses, or it\u2019s actually even less, that are in\u00A0charge\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022321459b7329947be910f73486df6d57a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022 data-id=\u00229bb00e4c0dbb4f07bdff028bdddb9deb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229bb00e4c0dbb4f07bdff028bdddb9deb\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m particularly interested in Part 1. In the general policy statement, it says, \u201CHowever, the Government\u2019s view is that most small businesses will not have time to search for payment data on the Ministry of Business, Innovation, and Employment\u2019s internet site and that, even if they can find it and interpret it correctly, it would be unlikely to impact their decisions about who to do business with.\u201D Can the Minister please talk through, or point the committee to, the evidence behind this statement, and can the Minister inform us which small businesses, if any, were consulted with to come to the view? Because we are, effectively, being ram-roaded through legislation to repeal something. We\u2019re getting used to it, but it is a very poor way to make legislation. So I\u2019m very interested in seeing what the Minister\u2019s instructed the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment to do to create a more user-friendly internet page for the register of information and about business practices so that small businesses and small and medium enterprises can quickly access information and intercept it without undue delay.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EI\u2019m really interested in, in particular: what were the stakeholder consultations that were conducted to proposing the repeal of the Business Payment Practices Act to Cabinet? What consultations were done prior to proposing this repeal to Cabinet? How were the concerns and feedback, if there were any, from those discussions, from those consultations, from businesses and other relevant parties taken into account? So I\u2019m assuming that the Minister has done due diligence and the Minister, not wanting to take 160-plus days to get some legislation done, has gone out and has consulted widely with businesses, the small and medium enterprises, before doing such a ludicrous act as repealing something without having consulted anyone. I\u2019m sure the Minister wouldn\u2019t have done something like that, so I\u2019d really like to hear from the Minister about all of the work that\u2019s gone in to creating or to building this repeal and who has participated and what their input has been into it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EThis would be helpful so we can understand that the Minister\u2019s not simply breaking stuff because the Minister likes breaking stuff but is intent on actually engaging with the community, engaging with small and medium enterprises, and engaging with our business communities to ensure that there is good legislation, because, without that, we can\u2019t have faith that this Government knows anything about business. Without that, we can\u2019t have faith that this Government cares about our community. Without that, we can\u2019t have faith that this Government wants to see thriving communities with innovative, risk-taking businesses and individuals who are willing to engage and make this place a better country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003ESo if the Minister could come back to that: what stakeholder consultations were conducted prior to proposing the repeal of the Business Payment Practices Act to Cabinet, and how were those concerns and feedback, if there were any, from businesses and other relevant parties taken into account? And I\u2019ll come back to those other earlier questions if the Minister would like to respond, but I\u2019ll leave it there for now and, hopefully, hear a response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u002239d95e5f2ce748819e1267b992d39048\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239d95e5f2ce748819e1267b992d39048\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY (Minister for Small Business and Manufacturing):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019ve got a few points there. It\u2019s funny, the issue about interpretation of the ram-raiding, when I used the word \u201Cram-raiding\u201D. Obviously, the previous Government chose to use its majority to push through the changes; I acknowledge that there were amendments made, but it was driven through even though National was very clear, and, I think, ACT were very clear, to put a dissenting report in the select committee\u2019s report back to the House. But the issue around ram-raiding was one of the Government choosing to use its majority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ENow, the issue around the urgency and why we\u2019re doing this today, and why this particular piece of legislation is going through today, is the issue of: if we do not do this quickly, the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment is required under legislation set down by the previous Parliament to actually start incurring costs, and that is why we need to do this as soon as practicable. That\u2019s why this issue is being pushed through and is being done under urgency, for that very reason. Also, many, many businesses are also asking\u2014the 3,000-plus businesses that this will affect\u2014me the same thing: please provide clarity around whether we need to incur significant amounts of money to upgrade our IT systems to be able to reflect these changes. As I\u2019ve said before, many of those larger businesses have enterprise resource planning systems that are quite difficult to upgrade. That\u2019s why we\u2019re giving them the clarity to do it now quickly so people can stop work, because the simple fact is, as I keep saying, this is not about letting people off the hook; the system simply does not work. As the Australian Government\u2019s review of their own system has shown, on the recent report on it, it is not a practical way of getting a better outcome, and that\u2019s why I have proposed a whole range of additional measures, because I do want to make sure that both businesses and the Government make sure they are paying on time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ENow, you talked about the nudge effect, which was raised before. The simple fact: if the Government starts paying on time in 10 working days\u2014and we hit a target of five working days for payment times if people use e-invoicing\u2014that will be the greatest nudge, because, as members across the way will know, the Government accounts for about a third of the economy, and that\u2019s where the Government in the last term should\u2019ve first of all directed its own focus. It\u2019s actually wrong to be able to say, \u201CLook, business, you go and spend tens of millions of dollars and not worry about our own House.\u201D That\u2019s what I\u2019m doing. I\u2019m going to be working with the Minister of Finance. We don\u2019t need to do legislation; we can do it by the Minister issuing a directive. We do need to consult with the Crown entities; it will take approximately two to three months to do that, and we can bring about that change very, very quickly. So that is why we\u2019re doing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EIn terms of the code, I\u2019ve spoken to, and I\u2019ve made a public announcement\u2014Business New Zealand has also publicly acknowledged that they\u2019ll bring in a code. We\u2019re going to be working on that as a matter of priority, but, hopefully, they are going to take the lead\u2014and, of course, I\u2019ll be involved in that process\u2014following the Government\u2019s processes to pay people very promptly, and particularly if they use e-invoicing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5bdf9097dbf4c8396e2ede6363d5851\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5bdf9097dbf4c8396e2ede6363d5851\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair\u2014excellent choice. I\u2019m sure that the Minister for Small Business and Manufacturing didn\u2019t agree with my characterisation of this bill as sort of venal kind of deference to vested interests\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e360572bf46043539e6dbc4a4ec06338\u0022\u003EHon Paul Goldsmith\u003C/span\u003E: Gaslighting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6929eda02734ec9b2de1efc0f7dc112\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: And gaslighting. Thank you for putting that on the record. But I want to give the Minister an opportunity to convince the committee that that characterisation wasn\u2019t fair. And I think that the way that he can do that is by providing us with the data, the analysis, the modelling, the projections that informed his decision. I\u00A0want to be assured that it\u2019s not just reckons and ideology and political shortcutting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EA Green colleague earlier asked what data the Minister had or what consultation was done to inform his assertion that small and medium enterprise (SME) owners will not use the public disclosure database. And I too would like to know what that\u2019s based on. Is it just reckons or is there actually some information, some facts, that underpin that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EAt the heart of this argument is a trade-off\u2014a trade-off between imposing a compliance cost on the country\u2019s largest corporations in order to deliver a benefit to SMEs and to create a more competitive environment for our small and medium sized enterprises. I\u2019d like to know what cost-benefit analysis has been done to inform where the Government has come down on that trade-off. Has the Minister been able to have the benefit of some kind of quantifying of the compliance costs to big business? Surely that modelling shouldn\u2019t be too difficult to obtain. What\u2019s the likely cost, what\u2019s the incidence of it, the number of corporations that would be affected, the frequency, and so on? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThirdly, what makes him think that a voluntary code of conduct will change behaviour, when we\u2019re talking about an entrenched pattern of behaviour that confers substantial financial benefit on the late-paying corporations, at the expense of small businesses? What are the facts on this? What is the data that the Minister has drawn on to justify his assertion that a voluntary code of conduct is a credible or serious alternative to the law that is being repealed today?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI would suggest that Helen White\u2019s Amendment Paper that would, essentially, retain the current law but give it a trial period would be a much more thoughtful and responsible approach. If the Minister, in fact, does agree that this is a serious problem affecting small businesses, as he says, unless he\u2019s got a watertight case, based on the modelling, based on the facts, then surely a more responsible approach would be to allow the legislation to continue and, effectively, a trial period and do an evaluation after four or five years. Why not take the Australian approach, which is not to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but to see how the approach, the legislation, can be strengthened or improved or streamlined?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022acb3022be9874fb1bcf1dbf50085ecb0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022acb3022be9874fb1bcf1dbf50085ecb0\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY (Minister for Small Business and Manufacturing):\u003C/span\u003E Look, this \u201Creckon\u201D thing\u2014I\u2019d just say to the member the Hon Phil Twyford: how can you get a qualification on a system that hasn\u2019t actually taken place? No one could answer that question. That question cannot be answered. The only place where it has taken place is in Australia, and it\u2019s been in place for two years, and so they\u2019re the best people to look at what the impact is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve quoted the statistics before, particularly around the take-up of the scheme over there and the usage of the scheme, and the recommendations of the Minister who actually did the review are interesting. What he said, was\u2014and, again, I just quote\u2014\u201CI recommend: better protecting the rights of small businesses regarding unfair trading practices and unfair contract terms\u201D. We\u2019re not talking reckons here; we\u2019re talking about a Minister who has actually reviewed the scheme that\u2019s been in place, which the Labour Government just obviously picked up and carried over here without much further thought. I\u2019ve just noted previously that one of the seven initiatives is raising awareness of existing redress options under the Fair Trading Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe second point is increasing the adoption of e-invoicing. I\u2019ve already said countless times in the House that one of the greatest drivers of productivity\u2014and if you just pick up or google Xero\u2019s report, they talk about an $8.5 billion uplift for the New Zealand economy if small businesses, in particular, pick up and do one more app. If that one more app happened to be e-invoicing, the productivity gains to New Zealand, they estimate, are $8.5 billion, right? I am very keen, as the small-business Minister, and this Government is very keen, to promote e-invoicing, because of the productivity gains. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo what we\u2019ve said is we\u2019re going to require Government agencies and entities, in time, to be capable of e-invoicing, both to be able to receive and to send, and to incentivise businesses to do it, because they\u2019re going to have even quicker payment times. That is not about regulation; that is just smart thinking about how you try and make things happen in the economy without resorting to regulation, which the Labour Government loved to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe third thing: elevating the importance of prompt payment of suppliers and of procurement practices. Guess what! What are the one of the other seven initiatives I noted? The other one is that we are going to ask the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment to publicly disclose the payment times for Government agencies. We are going to do that. That is the biggest nudge you will see, because that will drive CEOs of our large Government agencies, and, in time, the Crown entities\u2014nearly 100 entities spending over $50 billion a year\u2014to promptly pay. All these things are actually recommended by the Australian Government, and that is what we\u2019re proposing to do with the reforms that I\u2019ve set out many times, that I\u2019ve spoken about in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022 data-id=\u00229d4e3df244fb4e02a0c97c592c1f048d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d4e3df244fb4e02a0c97c592c1f048d\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022dafe66b583074371b02800cd571d3420\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dafe66b583074371b02800cd571d3420\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, thank you. Look, I\u2019m really appreciating the responses from the Minister for Small Business and Manufacturing. They are genuine responses to the questions and so I do think that\u2019s really useful. I\u2019m hoping that we can have a little bit of the exchange that we were promised when we brought in the new way of doing committee of the whole House stages. I do have just a few questions for the Minister, which I\u2019m hoping he can answer fairly promptly, so I\u2019m not going to spin out the time I\u2019ll take; I am going to get to the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EIt is to do with one of the seven measures that the Minister talked about in his first speech and again in his second speech. I took notes from both speeches and it was talked about again now. And that is the fact that small businesses can go to some credit ratings entities and get a report on a business for the sum of $35. I just wonder if the Minister\u2014OK, he asserted there\u2019s four or five of them readily available in New Zealand. Could he please name those agencies? It would be useful to know who they are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u002247ab4c4b7a5e4aada0bbec63279594e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247ab4c4b7a5e4aada0bbec63279594e4\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I too wish to thank the Minister for Small Business and Manufacturing for his genuine engagement. I think, over the last 98 days or so, we haven\u2019t seen a great level of engagement at the committee of the whole House stage, and for the Minister to listen to the speeches and then engaging meaningfully at this point is very useful. He has referred to a number of his speeches and some of his thinking around what he plans to do in this space, as Dr Deborah Russell has said, and so that does open up the conversation in our questions in a back and forth exchange, I think, to really get a sense of why he has brought those into the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESo, on that note, the Minister has just mentioned in his previous answer about the public sector and requiring the public sector to be prompt with their payments. I couldn\u2019t agree more. I think leading from the front is a very good idea. Government procurement, we know in the social enterprise space, can make a huge difference to the NGO sector and to social equity. I\u2019m wanting to know why the Minister wouldn\u2019t consider just including that requirement of the public sector in the existing framework that has been set up by the primary bill. Because, as the Minister has quite rightly said, the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment is just about to start to create those regulations and therefore it wouldn\u2019t be that problematic, in my view, to simply tweak this current system to require that public sector requirement. That\u2019s my first thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThe second one, picking up on what he said, was about the fact that there wouldn\u2019t be a need to legislate, because the Minister of Finance would be able to give a directive. I\u2019m really keen to know what that entails because, as has been pointed out, we are doing this under urgency. There\u2019s been a lot of use of urgency from the Government, and using a ministerial directive is quite a strong and unusual point of action that can be taken but in quite limited circumstances. I want to know if the Minister has considered whether there could be a judicial review of that ministerial directive, what advice has he received about the use of the ministerial directive, and can he assure us that there wouldn\u2019t be some kind of \u201CHenry VIII\u201D element to it, given that he is planning to put in some fundamental changes without going through the normal parliamentary process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EMy third question is to just pick up some new points on the voluntary code that were raised by the Hon Phil Twyford, because voluntary codes\u2014there is some cynicism from our side of the House in terms of thinking: is this just a PR exercise? The late payment practices that are currently being endured by small business have been around for ever and so we we\u2019re deeply cynical about the offer of big business to suddenly say that it wants to set in place a voluntary code. That could sound like a PR stunt. So I\u2019m wanting to know what advice has he had from officials about the efficacy of a voluntary code. I\u2019d like to know, in that voluntary code, which he himself has raised in the debate, how many violations of the code would it take for there to be some kind of ramification? Would big business be able to violate it as a trend? Or would there be a capped number of how many times they would have late payment practices before that code would kick into effect? And what kind of consultation would go into that code? Because I\u2019m sure that big business would have an opinion about that. Were small businesses consulted or will they be consulted in the formulation of that code to work out what those violations would be?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThe other question is sanctions. If there\u2019s a voluntary code, what are the sanctions? Will there be sanctions and will it hinge on reputational risk? Because that is what the existing Act does. And, Madam Chair, before I come to the end of my time, I\u2019d just like to advise you, I do have an amendment I\u2019d like to put to the Minister before I have to leave, which I think might actually help him out. So these are just my questions on the voluntary code. And also, would the code be made in a public kind of forum? Would it be done behind closed doors? Again, what official advice has he had?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ETurning now to my amendment, that I think I\u2019d really like the Minister to consider very seriously, because when we look at what we\u2019re trying to do today, and I think there is agreement across the House that paying bills late is bad practice\u2014I think that\u2019s one thing we can agree on, but we have very different views about it. So what could perhaps help the Minister is, instead of under clause 3, repealing the Act to simply replace the purpose section 3(b) of the Business Payment Practices Act with a new subsection (b) \u201CRequire large entities to advise contractors on written notice of any late payment\u201D. This\u00A0is an amendment under my name.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ENow, of course, we need the definition of \u201Clate payment\u201D. So I would insert in section 5 of the Act that \u201CLate payment means any payment that falls outside a large entity\u2019s own payment terms and conditions.\u201D This speaks to the fact that we are not advocating a prescriptive regime that says a big business has to pay within 10 days or within one month. What we are saying is: by all means retain your self-governance, retain your payment practices, but make sure you stick to your own rules, because, then, small business will be on notice of what the payment terms are, will have the certainty it requires to be able to plan its cash flow, and will know that if, for example, the payment terms are three weeks, that the cash flow has to meet that. And there will be certainty that at the end of that three weeks, payment will be made, cash flow will be happening, and it will be able to then pay its own contractors and suppliers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESo the other element to this, then, is a new clause 5A. This is a part that technically would enable the legislation to do exactly what the new purpose would say. And if I dissect it\u2014so I\u2019ll read it to you. It\u2019s new clause 60A \u201CLarge entities must advise contractors by written notice of any late payment as soon as is practicable, once it is aware that such payment will be late.\u201D Now, \u201Clarge entities\u201D, we know that that is the entities that have the cap of $33 million of revenue or $10 million owing to third parties, which I had thought the Minister was comfortable with when we had amended that in the primary legislation at select committee. So we know what large entities are. This is not going to affect smaller business. So all the talk from the other side of the House about compliance costs, simply, for most business in New Zealand does not apply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThen we\u2019ve got \u201CAdvise contractors by written notice\u201D\u2014now, this is really important. I\u2019m not suggesting it be by letter, but it could be by e-mail, text, or any form of evidence-based communication, because if there are disputes, obviously there needs to be a record of the communication\u2014\u201Cof any late payments\u201D\u2014we\u2019ve talked about that. That means late according to its own payment practices, and then \u201Cas soon as practicable\u201D. That\u2019s a very reasonable kind of test. We see that in a lot of legislation. It\u2019s not requiring big business to go through hoops. It is saying that is what is reasonably practicable to do in the circumstances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThe really interesting bit for me here is that this is once it is aware that such payment will be late. So I\u2019ve even added a mens rea element to this that there needs to be awareness by the big business. Now, that could be, if the Minister was minded to and wanted to be really generous to big business\u2014it could actually require evidence that there was true awareness by somebody\u2014an employee, a manager, somebody who was part of that business or it could be deemed, and that would be my preference, Minister, through you, Madam Chair. I would like to see that deemed, so that where there was some kind of trail of communication, or perhaps there was an invoice in the system, there would be a deemed awareness that that payment would be late if it was not made according to the practices of that business at the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, I\u2019d really\u2014through you, Madam Chair\u2014like you to consider my amendment, because I think it\u2019s a nimble way to achieve all the things that you would like to achieve while making sure that we don\u2019t dismantle something that did go through a select committee, that did have this voice of small business, that can be tweaked to have the public sector element that the Minister would so like to see and that I support. So,\u00A0Minister, I\u2019m very keen for you to show the generosity in your answers that you have previously and to continue this back and forth, because I know that my colleague Dr\u00A0Deborah Russell has got a number of questions on the seven elements of the new regime. And given that you\u2019ve brought them into the debate\u2014through you, Madam Chair\u2014we would really like to interrogate your thinking on that. I look forward to your answers, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u002247fd8ab5bbab44e1a34c5fa65ed0386f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247fd8ab5bbab44e1a34c5fa65ed0386f\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY (Minister for Small Business and Manufacturing):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m sensing it\u2019s going to be a long Friday, because the questions are\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f60a61f9b0c49d6b011872433093932\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Or Saturday, maybe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b212673652545568640c5d995a898d6\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: Or Saturday, because I\u2019m sensing the questions are becoming not as direct and rather on a different tangent, if I can put it that way. To be asked, \u201CWho are the four credit agencies?\u201D, well, I think there\u2019s Centrix, Equifax, and illion, and I can\u2019t remember the fourth, but I\u2019m sure if the member pulls out her phone, she might be able to find the fourth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ENow, in terms of the issue around the issuing of a directive, as I made clear in my opening speech\u2014in my initial speech\u2014I\u2019ll be working with the Minister of Finance, and also in her capacity as Minister for the Public Service. There are three options, actually, for how we might bring about the changes in terms of payment times. In respect of Government agencies and after consultation with Government entities, that could either be by way of a directive, it could be by way of a Cabinet decision, or it could actually be through the procurement rules, but probably most likely by way of directive, and the Minister can do that pretty easily.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EIn terms of the amendments to the bill\u2014and I note there\u2019s quite a few Amendment Papers being put up by members of the Opposition\u2014one thing I\u2019d say to them is that if we repeal the bill, which is the Government\u2019s intent, then obviously you cannot attach the amendments to a bill that no longer exists. And I would suggest that some of the suggestions from the last member, who was obviously trying to be helpful, those are the type of things I would expect to be taken up in the industry code which will be developed and, hopefully, in place by the end of this year, which I would expect, because that will pick up some of those elements. But, in terms of the amendments that have been put forward, unfortunately they cannot apply to a bill that no longer exists.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022 data-id=\u002210bf2508a03d489888f1bb269ec484f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002210bf2508a03d489888f1bb269ec484f2\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E Oh, fine choice. Thank you very much. I rise for the first time in the committee of the whole House stage. I just also acknowledge the Minister for Small Business and Manufacturing for his attention, I think, during the speeches and also during this committee stage. Ng\u0101 mihi nui, ki a koe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EWhat we do know, Minister, is that this bill would adversely impact M\u0101ori, Pasifika, and vulnerable P\u0101keh\u0101 communities. So a question is: which small M\u0101ori businesses has he consulted? There are 21,000 M\u0101ori-run businesses here in Aotearoa, and I\u2019d just like to know if you\u2019ve consulted one around this particular issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EI think that it\u2019s insulting to say that small businesses wouldn\u2019t know how to navigate through a particular process. I think that\u2019s insulting, when, you know, these are intelligent professionals who are able to start a business and contribute. You said the Government contributes to 33 percent of this country\u2019s economy; 29 percent\u2014over a quarter of New Zealand\u2019s GDP\u2014is contributed by small businesses. So we\u2019ve got to ask the question, because that is a huge amount: over a quarter of the country\u2019s GDP is actually contributed by small business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003ESo I just want to know which of these small businesses\u2014and, in particular, M\u0101ori and Pasifika small businesses\u2014has the Minister consulted to ensure that this bill helps those particular businesses to survive. Unfortunately, 35 percent of companies, year on year, are filing for liquidation. Why? It\u2019s because they\u2019re not paid on time. Four months is a long time for any small business to wait. Like I said in one of my speeches, it impacts on those who have to pay the bills, on those who have to feed their wh\u0101nau, and on those who have to fill their vehicles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003ESo the other question I have for the Minister is: how can he give assurance or security to those vulnerable communities, and especially those firms that employ M\u0101ori, Pasifika, and vulnerable P\u0101keh\u0101 people, that they\u2019ll be able to pay their bills on time? That\u2019s what the impact is of this bill: it\u2019s not just small businesses but the impact of those who work for those small businesses. If there is no mechanism to hold big corporations to pay on time, how does the Government ensure that those corporations pay on time? This gives them a back door out\u2014it actually gives them a back door out. So I want to know: you\u2019ve taken this mechanism out, what is the mechanism that this Government is going to use to ensure that those companies pay those small businesses and those wh\u0101nau who are working for those businesses on time, and those who own those businesses are able to pay those who work for those businesses, but also that those who are working for those small businesses are able to pay the bills, feed the wh\u0101nau, put petrol in their car, pay their medical bills?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re in a financial crisis at the moment, in terms of it\u2019s really, really difficult for our wh\u0101nau out there at this particular time. This bill puts more pressure on those wh\u0101nau. It\u2019s going to put more pressure on small businesses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003ESo those are some of the questions that I ask the Minister. I respect the Minister. I look forward to the answers to those questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u002264797516cee447d08780a04f45ce8e16\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002264797516cee447d08780a04f45ce8e16\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY (Minister for Small Business and Manufacturing):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you to the member Rawiri Waititi for those kind words. Just on the issue of failure of companies, there are many reasons why nine out of 10 businesses fail over 10 years, and a lot of it is due to undercapitalised businesses simply not having enough capital. A lot of it is to do with the fact of poor management and the way they market their companies. The reasons are varied. So to attribute it always to late payment is not actually correct. But I take your point. Late payment can affect businesses, and cash flow is the lifeblood of any business, and so I acknowledge that. That\u2019s why I\u2019m very conscious of dealing with that specific issue. I think what we\u2019re proposing is actually a much more practical approach to actually getting a better outcome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EIn terms of M\u0101ori businesses, I recently had dinner with some Pacific and M\u0101ori business leaders, and the member might be interested to know that I have reestablished the ministerial small-business advisory group. I\u2019ve had 40 people to a meeting three weeks ago and I\u2019ve got another meeting with them, I think, the week after next, where I\u2019m actually seeking the view of many people from across the small-business sector, whether they\u2019re in tourism, whatever sector they are, they are being represented, and I\u2019m asking these sorts of questions of them because I want to make sure that when we\u2019re responding, as the Government, to the issues, we\u2019re responding to the needs that small businesses have identified, not some Minister sitting in the chair opining on it and coming up with a view and imposing $3 billion worth of additional regulatory cost, which we saw over the last six years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022eaa7d54a08b64eb48d503236055faed1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eaa7d54a08b64eb48d503236055faed1\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to go back to the question I asked earlier when I asked the Minister for Small Business and Manufacturing which were the four or so credit ratings agencies, and it\u2019s for a practical reason. I took myself to have a quick look at those websites to have a look at the sort of information that is available from those credit ratings agencies, and there are, in fact, a variety of credit reports available. But\u2014to the Minister, respectfully\u2014the information that is available from those credit agencies does not seem to be the same sort of information that is available in this Business Payment Practices Bill that would have been made available by that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo the particular information that\u2019s made available in the Business Payment Practices Bill is not the creditworthiness of a supplier of an entity, it\u2019s not their credit record, and so on. What the Business Payment Practices Bill supplies us with is information about how long an entity takes to pay. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve actually had a longstanding interest in this. Back in the Parliament of 2017 to 2020, I had a member\u2019s bill in the ballot looking at requiring companies to disclose information about their payment practices time. I was alerted to that by David Cormack, who I know will be known to many of you. He came and talked to me about some of the difficulties around businesses getting paid, and so we looked at having at least a disclosure regime so that businesses would have to disclose how long they took to pay invoices. Now, that information is available. Businesses do have creditors\u2019 ledgers which record where they owe money to and how long it is since they were paid, and, actually, sometimes that\u2019s not related to their creditworthiness\u2014famously, Fonterra was taking a very long time to pay its bills, for no good reason. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EMy concern here, Minister, and I would like to hear your thoughts on it, is the extent to which the information that is sitting in the Business Payment Practices Bill can be obtained\u2014sorry, it\u2019s not in the bill; if it was, this wouldn\u2019t have been brought in\u2014by small businesses who want to know how long it is going to take for them to get paid. So it\u2019s a different set of information, and I couldn\u2019t find it, and certainly not at that low price you\u2019ve quoted of $35, on the various credit ratings agencies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo there are a couple of things there that I guess you could address. One is the extent to which businesses can get that information, or that length of payment time, but also whether\u2014you know, perhaps they could get it one way or another, but is that available at what you have suggested is the low cost of $35, or would they, in fact, have to pay a higher fee to those various credit ratings agencies in order to get that kind of information? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022665b5e75a66b4931a44bf0bd06c50cd5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022665b5e75a66b4931a44bf0bd06c50cd5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to take a call from H\u016Bhana Lyndon. I\u2019m looking for any particularly new questions. It\u2019s a very narrow bill, and, as the Minister said before, it\u2019s very hard to amend an Act that\u2019s about to be repealed. So very specific questions for the Minister from here on in, thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022 data-id=\u0022a881c29e4f0145b385778252a459adc7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a881c29e4f0145b385778252a459adc7\u0022\u003EH\u016AHANA LYNDON (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m just really wanting to go to the heart of the matter, I guess, and our fundamental principles and relationships of Te Tiriti o Waitangi. Consultation is one thing\u2014and having a dinner recently is awesome with M\u0101ori business\u2014but, ultimately, what, in the lead-up to introducing this legislation under urgency, did the Minister undertake to engage with te Iwi M\u0101ori\u2014te Iwi M\u0101ori and the relationship with the Government through Te Tiriti. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002228503e94-a5c6-4364-92b7-dc1da041fc50\u0022\u003EI haven\u2019t heard an answer for my colleague Scott Willis in terms of stakeholder engagement, and then we\u2019ve heard the response to my learned colleague Rawiri Waititi. But in terms of the Te Tiriti relationship, what guidance or offers of advice did you receive from iwi M\u0101ori, and did you receive any advice from Crown officials in terms of how compliant this legislation is with Te Tiriti? Kia ora. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u002256004149a1af4618ac98d903fcf9a949\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002256004149a1af4618ac98d903fcf9a949\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Thank you, it\u2019s really a pleasure to take a call on this bill. It was a bill that I was responsible for when I was the Minister for Small Business, and it is a real concern to see that it\u2019s being repealed without any real active programme in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo the first point I\u2019d like to ask the Minister for Small Business and Manufacturing is in relation to the information provided to support the repeal bill. I do understand that there is no regulatory impact statement provided with this legislation. I would just like to ask the Minister if he\u2019s considered still doing some sort of analysis, because, while he is repealing the bill, it still requires some level of analysis to understand what the impacts are on small business by not implementing this regime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo the problem that the initial bill was attempting to address was access to finance for small businesses. And we know\u2014we all, I think, agree\u2014that that would be the number one issue that small businesses struggle with: accessing finance. New Zealand is right up there in the world as being one of the poorest countries to provide small-business owners with some way of accessing finance. No doubt, the Minister will have heard stories, as I did, of small-business owners who mortgage their own home, who go into debt simply to be able to make the next wage round. So what this bill was attempting to do was to free up regular payments\u2014from those large companies that wait to the last minute in order to accrue interest on that that that income, that money\u2014to enable small businesses. So that\u2019s my question to the Minister in relation to what analysis on the regulatory impact statement might be done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESecondly, my question is: what are his plans in order to enable small businesses in New Zealand to have greater access to finance? Because that is the outstanding question that is not addressed when you simply repeal this legislation. Just having a voluntary code, or just ensuring that Government pays, does not address the heart of that problem. What I put to the Minister\u2014and I\u2019d be really interested to hear his feedback\u2014is that while this Government has come in claiming to get a lid on inflation, to bring inflation down, which we all want to see, what we are actually seeing is some unintended causes in the economy, as a result of cost cutting, of reducing spending. There\u2019s been some really interesting reports\u2014Bernard Hickey, one of these\u2014that are saying that inflation is actually being pushed out and up into the economy. We\u2019re seeing this through increased rates, through increased compliance costs on small businesses, through new fees, through user-pays\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a13ad080eb24d17be1faaaeefaf7c96\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Can we come back to questions for the Minister, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbbf5c40298341479dd5cc82548159ef\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN\u003C/span\u003E: So what these additional costs that are pushing up inflation and putting an additional burden on small businesses\u2014what is the Minister\u2019s plan? Maybe it\u2019s in the eight points that he\u2019s mentioned that we haven\u2019t heard what they all are. What is the answer to enabling small businesses in New Zealand to have access to finance, so that we don\u2019t have mum and dad businesses with their home getting a second mortgage in order just to make payments. Because that is the fundamental problem that we still\u2014I don\u2019t see\u2014have an answer for, and I\u2019d be very keen for the Minister to speak to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EI\u2019d just like to raise one issue in relation to the legislative statement that\u2019s been presented to the House. In particular, the Government\u2019s views that most small businesses won\u2019t have the time to search for payment data and so we\u2019ll just throw it out. I just think I\u2019d like to hear a little bit more from the Minister. That can\u2019t be the whole reason: they don\u2019t have time to do it, so we should just throw the baby out with the bath water. I don\u2019t see that as a sufficient justifying reason to scrap this bill that would help small businesses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe other point I would just like the Minister to speak on is that it states in the explanatory note that \u201Cinformation on late payers is already available from credit agencies.\u201D My point to the Minister is: that\u2019s different, that whether someone\u2019s got a bad credit rating, it is not the same as actually being able to pay on time or being a good payer. So I\u2019d just like some more information about what other information is available, whether it be Government or small businesses. If we\u2019re going to scrap this register and it\u2019s going to be voluntary, what else can small businesses have as tools? Someone can have a great credit rating but can be a lousy payer of their bills, but do it on the last day or, like, the day after\u2014that\u2019s still not fair on small businesses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022efb771bf6fbb4a299d3902b0024f9586\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022efb771bf6fbb4a299d3902b0024f9586\u0022\u003ENANCY LU (National):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228e3ef35af383446db79d974ce5ce9844\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b162763ff871455b86ea9a01dc246263\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b162763ff871455b86ea9a01dc246263\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The tabled amendments to Part 1 in the name of Arena Williams, Helen White, and Ingrid Leary are ruled out of order as being inconsistent with the principles and objects of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b1d7078dde9a4c9da6b60cb2b76f4a82\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002274a640bd64b64c10a0c9aa151610f835\u0022\u003EPart 2  Repeal of this Act\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002220dfcde9b05e40f4b181aff56262ccf3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002220dfcde9b05e40f4b181aff56262ccf3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to Part 2. This is the debate on clause 7, \u201CRepeal of this Act\u201D, and if we can keep the questions to the Minister around repeal of this Act. The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef35e56c2bf1417a8bd680dc95be98af\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef35e56c2bf1417a8bd680dc95be98af\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. My question for the Minister is this has become a practice, it seems, in this particular period of your Government, to repeal Acts that they have just put in, and I would like the Minister to tell me why we would do that. Why would we take away the very record of the fact that we have repealed? So this is a repeal of this Act, as I understand it, not a repeal of the Act before it. That\u2019s done elsewhere; this is a repeal of this Act. So could you just talk to me about why this wording is in this bill? It\u2019s a new practice, as I understand it\u2014we didn\u2019t used to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u002261c766a38bbb4aa3a571d0aad68714b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261c766a38bbb4aa3a571d0aad68714b2\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E My question does follow on from my colleague Helen White\u2019s question, and the first time I came across one of those clauses was in another bill which was being taken through under urgency, actually. But it\u2019s a self-repeal clause, and it would be good to get some explanation as to why we have self-repeal clauses, as Helen White asked for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EBut the particular issue I wanted to focus on is that it\u2019s the 28th day after the date on which it comes into force\u2014fine; 28 days after this bill comes into force it gets repealed\u2014but I\u2019ve seen other lengths of time on other bills that have been put up by the Government. I think some of the other self-repeal clauses have gone out to a year out\u2014that was another one that I was interested in. So it\u2019s a genuine question. I\u2019m looking for some consistency around these self-repeal clauses. They are a little new to us. They have been used before, but they\u2019re being used increasingly frequently. Knowing this Minister, I\u2019m sure there\u2019s a good reason for it, but I\u2019d like to hear, as Helen White said, the reason for the repeal bill, but also why it\u2019s 28 days, as opposed to a year in some other cases. If we\u2019re going to have these consistent self-repeal bills, it would be nice to have a little bit of consistency around that too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u002260d9741741f9455abb2b1cde881561f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002260d9741741f9455abb2b1cde881561f3\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY (Minister for Small Business and Manufacturing):\u003C/span\u003E Well, thank you. They were good technical questions. First of all, why do a repeal of the repeal bill? Well, some members won\u2019t be aware of it, but this has been a practice for 10 years now. I\u2019ve just asked for some specific notes on it. Parliamentary Counsel Office practice is that repeal bills that mainly just repeal an Act should include a clause that provides for self-repeal after a suitable time\u2014i.e., after its work\u2019s done\u2014or to remove clutter on the legislation website. Now, examples of where this has taken place recently are the Taxation Principles Reporting Act Repeal Bill, fair pay agreements, the New Zealand Productivity Commission\u2014a whole raft of them, right? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThis is sort of standard practice. So you have to bring in the Act to repeal it, because otherwise that doesn\u2019t work within a legislative sense. The bill is brought in and the 28\u00A0days is a standard repeal period, actually. The reason why we are doing this so quickly\u2014as I\u2019ve said in our opening speech in the debate\u2014is that we are very conscious that unless we repeal the Act, the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment have a statutory requirement to go ahead and spend the $2 million to $3 million, to maybe $5 million, but also we want to be clear with industry, who are probably going to be spending tens of millions of dollars to actually do that. So we want to give absolute clarity, and that\u2019s why the bill will come in and then be immediately repealed within 28 days. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022348e2379b72a4b4884b1b491a62e64ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022348e2379b72a4b4884b1b491a62e64ba\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Just a couple of responses to that contribution from the Minister. It was, in fact, the Taxation Principles Reporting Act Repeal Bill which had a self-repeal clause on it of one year, and so the Minister has said that 28 days is the standard. I appreciate that he doesn\u2019t have the tax officials here in the Chamber, but I\u2019m hoping that perhaps the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE) officials can prompt us with just a wee explanation as to why one bill merited a year and one bill merited 28 days. But\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022240bbd911a94404d9f8b646e758e5aca\u0022\u003EHon Andrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve just answered that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba1b80c495a64907b9469fd793829bf1\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Well, but the difference between the periods\u2014they may not have that explanation to hand as to why the Taxation Principles Reporting Act Repeal Bill self-repealed a year later, whereas this bill repeals 28 days later. But if they have, that would be great to know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThe other thing, and the Minister brought it up in his speech just now, as to why we needed to have this particular bill\u2014keeping those words straight is getting challenging\u2014going through urgency now. I can see the repeal clause with 28 days, but then he mentioned the bill going through now, so I am going to respond to that as well. He said that the reason that we need to get this through under urgency now is because otherwise MBIE would have to spend $2 million or $3 million, or whatever it is, in order to put\u00A0this\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cb50e61cc4d468d8dbaaced2c0b0219\u0022\u003EHon Andrew Bayly\u003C/span\u003E: And industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3e1eb1f43a04572a2bcce39684d5a3d\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and industry would have to spend money too, in order to get this practice into place. I am somewhat sorry to ask this of this Minister, because I know he is diligent, but this Government, famously, has come into Government saying it had a 100-day plan. Now, the fact that most of the 100-day plan seems to have consisted of \u201Cstop, repeal, replace, remove\u201D is neither here nor there\u2014let\u2019s see the positive stuff. The Minister has seen this coming for a long time, so why leave it till the last minute?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022d476dbd44b9346bbbc3a1b5a01568f44\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d476dbd44b9346bbbc3a1b5a01568f44\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY (Minister for Small Business and Manufacturing):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I think we\u2019re having a constitutional debate here which is not really relevant to the bill, but none the less you asked about the 28-day repeal. Where bills or Acts have transitional arrangements, that\u2019s why you have a longer period of time, and that\u2019s why the tax\u2014I see the member; she\u2019s probably the only one in the House that probably understands it. But that\u2019s why the taxation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c280c69041c54744985d1bc06c0e3205\u0022\u003EHon Matt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, that\u2019s outrageous!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8687f2faf4240c985290d0ffda23237\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m sure many of you are very interested in these constitutional aspects, but I know\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ee649aea-c6fa-4610-9fcf-5c4bb2d3cd33\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229dde623804d9490cbba078b773b3895e\u0022\u003EHon Matt Doocey\u003C/span\u003E: I was up all night understanding it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216e940782cbc42b3aeeade44b7f4601d\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise to you\u2014there are some very diligent people. But that\u2019s why the taxation one had a longer period of time, and this is why we only have 28 days. It\u2019s perfectly relevant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI just also want to pick up on Helen White\u2019s Amendment Paper on this part of the bill, suggesting that it is delayed for 24 months. Look, the whole purpose of doing it now, under urgency, is so that we stop people incurring lots of money. We\u2019re conscious about the Government wasting even more money on a scheme that will not bring much benefit to it. That\u2019s why we would not agree to the 24 months, because that, in effect, allows the money to be spent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EIn terms of urgency, look, there have already been 49 pieces of legislation, or there will be by Friday, or maybe Saturday\u2014and I\u2019m looking at the chief whip there. But the fact is that this one was deemed, because of the urgency around people actually incurring money\u2014that\u2019s why we\u2019re pushing it through now under urgency. Otherwise, we could have had a longer period to do it, but we are very conscious about giving clarity. Industry has asked for that clarity, and we\u2019re delivering that clarity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022db7506fd0a754b7eae9ecaae2c9fcaa0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db7506fd0a754b7eae9ecaae2c9fcaa0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: OK, so we haven\u2019t moved to the title and commencement debate yet. This is strictly about repeal, so if someone\u2019s got a question strictly about repeal, I\u2019ll take it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u002231071b76d92c4cbd8a9a45526c665cbc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231071b76d92c4cbd8a9a45526c665cbc\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair, and thank you to the Minister for that clarification. What I\u2019m interested to know from the Minister about the repeal process is this. I\u2019m aware that a lot of communication was undertaken with small businesses and with industry, as well, in terms of how to get this bill right, and I would like some reassurance from the Minister. On the 28th day after the date in which it comes into force, when it is repealed, is there a sufficient plan in place so that all of those entities that may have undertaken some form of work and that may have changed their database and their pay systems and may have gone in to undertaking some sort of changes to how they make their payment so that it\u2019s self-reporting and, potentially, undergone some expense to do that work\u2014are there sufficient notifications and communications in place? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EWe know that not everybody tunes in to watch Parliament, so they might not all be watching this right now. So what reassurances can he provide the business community that there is a plan in place where all of those who are affected by this legislation being repealed are informed in enough time to be able to make those quite potentially technical IT changes to their systems to make sure that they\u2019re not incurring costs unnecessarily? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe other point I would like to make, and I acknowledge\u2014I still have not heard the access to finance. That\u2019s the big elephant in the room that hasn\u2019t been addressed. Access to finance for small businesses under a cost of living crisis\u2014that question has still not been addressed. I think that if you\u2019re going to repeal this Act, then it is incumbent upon this Government to address the question of what the plan is for access to finance for small businesses going forward in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u002237cf8a0bc7334b9aa3165c21f2c4496e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002237cf8a0bc7334b9aa3165c21f2c4496e\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. I just want to seek clarification. The Minister has started to talk about issues which are really about clause 2 and the amendment there where it is proposed to have a trial period and not repeal. I don\u2019t want to lose my opportunity, so my understanding is that this particular part of the debate is about the repeal of the repeal bill, not the extension of time that might be present, and I just want to make sure that I\u2019ve got the agreement of the Chair\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab59ac4473934603bc862cb3fe9dda54\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the member is correct. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af29b848b37b4d938f68a5ec3540d26b\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022 data-id=\u00224759007b23384ff89601d1ecba16cb6c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224759007b23384ff89601d1ecba16cb6c\u0022\u003ECARL BATES (National\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now\u00A0close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d2b427204f6c42249a84bdd2f07cc3aa\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225782a54e45b349659cefe86f4c7bff38\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022408355078cb746f69adeb496170493ab\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022964838c0fa9c4a1182d8fd5a4cffdfd2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022964838c0fa9c4a1182d8fd5a4cffdfd2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to our final debate, on clauses 1 and 2. This is the debate on the title and commencement\u2014so we were straying a bit into that territory before. If we can have not a repeat of the questions that the Minister has already answered: title and commencement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u00223d63086c049747008c47c695e763de79\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223d63086c049747008c47c695e763de79\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I would like to really take some time on this part, because, in fact, it\u2019s at the heart of this bill, really. We have a situation where, as I understand it, Minister, you\u2019ve got concerns that are based on the Australian research, and when you were going through the process, Minister, of participating in the select committee of the Act that is going to be repealed today, as is your proposal, it was stated by you that you considered it might be better\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b28fbf22c3784516bc4c8f9bc1feffad\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CThe Minister\u201D rather than the word \u201Cyou\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223104af8e9af74eb1ae4f285f9c865d9d\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014stated by the Minister in his capacity as a member of that select committee and in this House by way of a Supplementary Order Paper that a preferable approach would be to trial this process, which is just about to get under way, for two years. So there\u2019s a Supplementary Order Paper to that effect. I can see that that would allow the process to be actually trialled to start it\u2014up and running and get it going\u2014but it would also allow a window in which some of the amendments, which members on this side of the Chamber have not actually had an opportunity to speak to, could be trialled, in addition. So there could be a window of opportunity there to put the best foot forward in this situation, to learn from the Australian research, and to add to it. So I would like to ask the Minister about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EFor example, one of the amendments, which wasn\u2019t spoken about, is adding a clause which is about allowing interest for a default so that when payments are not made by a big entity, there is an automatic interest rate that would apply. So it\u2019s giving teeth to the Act that is about to be repealed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI can see the trial period amendment working. So extending out the period before this bill is repealed\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022192276e84cd44bd9bd82c74c0994f233\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just point out to the member that it has already been mentioned that it\u2019s hard to add amendments to an Act that\u2019s going to be repealed, because it won\u2019t exist, and that the debate, really, around here is around the title and commencement? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6086233d9124e79a8ab92f628c29545\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. So\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc1a770a409744f8bf240c1d8a53e9ce\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: So if the questions could be around that, thank\u00A0you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225de6908136ba495c9fff816cfd2803ff\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. So the suggestion is not that\u2014obviously, the amendments belong to another section, but the ideas are free for everyone. So extending the bill\u2014having that is absolutely in scope of this point, Madam Chair, because we\u2019re talking about extending the time period before the Act is repealed. So\u00A0extending it\u2014it\u2019s about enforcement. Allowing that window of opportunity of two years, which is actually the very window proposed by the Minister in the earlier Act\u2014so it\u2019s exactly in line with that. It\u2019s also exactly in line with what the Australians did in terms of reviewing their own legislation. Then, in that period, you would still have the Business Payment Practices Act in force. It would still be in force because we would extend the period out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ENow, we\u2019re absolutely up for time frame differences, but two years seems the minimum for doing that. So, for 24 months, we would try this, and we could add to it some of the things that are lessons learnt so we could give it the best possible opportunity of working. We could add things like actually having a sting in the tail if the people hadn\u2019t paid, because one of the things that\u2019s been happening is that there\u2019s been a calculation of this behaviour by big businesses, and it actually is worth money to them not to give over the money that is paid to small businesses and not to pay those invoices. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ESo we could trial that in that period, that big amount of time\u2014two years. We\u2019re almost up and running already. We could do that. We could give it a go, and if the Minister was not satisfied with the results at the end of that two years, he could pull the trigger, because it would already be happening. So we wouldn\u2019t be wasting any time; it would already be there that this bill was about to be repealed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002233fbf84647d74f0c98423d4ab4146847\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002233fbf84647d74f0c98423d4ab4146847\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022 data-id=\u002220393d8e3ee04e509d97d27503291aee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002220393d8e3ee04e509d97d27503291aee\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Firstly, I do want to acknowledge the Minister for the engagement that he has shown, particularly to the constructive discussion we\u2019ve had. Despite it being railroaded through urgency, I think there has been some very, very constructive and productive discussion at the moment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003ESo I would like to address the title and the commencement and I seek some response from the Minister about clause 1. As the title suggests, the clause states that \u201CThis Act is the Business Payment Practices Repeal Act\u201D. What advice, if any, did the Minister receive about clause 1\u2014that is, the title clause\u2014which states that \u201CThis Act is the Business Payment Practices Act Repeal Act 2024.\u201D What was the advice that the Minister received, and what alternative titles were considered to create more clarity for the public and for the small businesses about the impact of repealing this Act compared to if it had been left in place? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s my first question for the Minister. What was the advice, and what consideration was there given to a more accurate title for the repeal Act, because we do need to make sure that our small businesses can thrive and have an understanding of what happens in the House? Some of it can seem very, very opaque. I think clarity is really, really important, and a title can give us that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EOn commencement, my question concerns clause 2, and I\u2019m interested very much\u2014as Helen White mentioned\u2014to know from the Minister whether he considered a commencement date after the register had been allowed to be established. Perhaps, as has been suggested, it could be after two years in order to determine whether the regime would be useful for small businesses. So that\u2019s, effectively, a test period, and then, if not repealing it at all at that point, replacing it with a more effective regime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard that the Minister has seven points, and perhaps Stuart Smith upped it to nine. That\u2019s really good\u2014we\u2019re in a bargaining position. But if we can make something happen here that is positive, instead of breaking, that would be a really, really good outcome, and I think we do need to know if there\u2019s an opportunity to have a bit of a test period. Yes, we\u2019ve certainly heard about the cost to the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment for doing this, but we know that there\u2019s a $425 million cost to small businesses in the status quo. So the cost of doing it and of having a trial period is actually minimal compared to the cost of having a test period and giving something a go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EWe have heard that there are amendments that could be incredibly helpful. Were this to be a trial that we held for two years, we could really make something work here, because what I\u2019ve heard from this side has been some really productive, constructive elements that could inform how we can do so much better than the Australians, how we could make something work for our small and medium enterprises, and how we can have a thriving business community, but we need to give it a go. We need to be not afraid and not tribal about this. We need to give up this tribalism and simply opposing for the sake of opposing, and work on solutions together. That\u2019s, effectively, what has been proposed from members on this side of the Chamber, and I beseech you to think about how we can do something better rather than simply rejecting, stopping. That\u2019s, effectively, what we\u2019re doing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003ESo the questions I\u2019ve put to you, Minister, are about the title. If I could come back to the two questions that I\u2019ve asked: what advice, if any, did the Minister receive about clause 1\u2014that is, the title clause\u2014which states that \u201CThis Act is the Business Payment Practices Act Repeal Act 2024.\u201D, and what alternative titles were considered to create more clarity for the public and for small businesses, in particular, about the impact of repealing this Act, compared to if it had been left in place? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003ESo what would have been a clearer title, and then will the Minister consider a later commencement date to give a trial period that would be useful for small businesses and enable some of the innovations that we\u2019ve been hearing about? Those are my two questions to the Minister, and I would really appreciate an engagement. Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002254fe42ecd0d341b6b1f6b22ea216280f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002254fe42ecd0d341b6b1f6b22ea216280f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to take a call from the Hon Dr Deborah Russell, but I think the Minister, in the course of this debate, has made it very clear why a trial period wasn\u2019t tenable for the reason that he is actually undertaking this repeal. So I would like questions for the Minister outside of that concept, thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022f9e12ab86f54400ca9b27882edb1b68f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f9e12ab86f54400ca9b27882edb1b68f\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and I do appreciate the opportunity to speak to one of my proposed amendments. I have two proposed amendments for the title and commencement date, and I want to speak to one which I think the Clerk might well suggest is frivolous, but, to me, it actually gets to the heart of something that the Minister has talked about, and it gets to the heart of what the Minister is proposing to put in place for this particular Business Payment Practices Act. It\u2019s the amendment in my name that suggests that in clause 1, we should delete the words \u201CAct Repeal\u201D and we should insert the words \u201C(Asking Big Business to Play Nicely)\u201D. So\u00A0I think we should call this the \u201CBusiness Payment Practices (Asking Big Business to Play Nicely) Bill\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThat sounds frivolous, but it points up a very, very serious issue in this bill, and it goes to the heart of this bill. Now, part of our problem for small businesses is that they don\u2019t know when they\u2019re going to get paid. They struggle to get paid on time, and there\u2019s research from Xero which shows that\u2014I\u2019d have to dig it out. This is going back for a long time now, but\u2014oh no, 2023. So research from the New Zealand Institute of Economic Research shows that it costs small businesses when they get paid late. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo what is the solution? Well, it\u2019s to get paid on time, and part of what the Business Payment Practices Act did was it required big business to disclose how long it was taking them to pay bills. It was a\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224572a32cec6040afa39fbfc744985d16\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Could we come back to the title and commencement, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255aa5a35385944b0bb073f632cf3ea47\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014name and shame strategy. Yes, I will, thank you, Madam Chair. The Minister has mentioned many times in the course of this debate his solutions. We\u2019re taking this Business Payment Practices Act away, and he\u2019s got some solutions, and one of the solutions he has proposed is a voluntary code of practice\u2014exactly\u2014from big business. He\u2019s going to get together with Business New Zealand and draw up a voluntary code of practice for big business. In other words, he\u2019s going to ask big business to play nicely when it comes to paying their bills on time. I don\u2019t think it\u2019s what\u2019s going on with this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, of course it is, I think, not a very suitable strategy. We know that when times are tough, one of the easiest ways for a business to get low-cost financing is to stretch out the payment of its bills. It\u2019s a long-known strategy. If a business just stretches out that payment, it reduces its need for working capital and it reduces its financing costs, and all at the expense of small businesses. The Minister has proposed a solution to that. He said, \u201CLet\u2019s have a voluntary code of practice.\u201D Now, I think that is\u2014well, we\u2019ll see; it sounds pretty toothless to me. What we could have done with is, in fact, what this original bill did: provide access to information about how long businesses take to pay their bills. That\u2019s critical information for a small firm. They need to know it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThis Minister, who says\u2014I do believe him, because he\u2019s a decent guy. He says that he is concerned for small business, he does care about what happens to them, and he does care about them. But the solution he\u2019s proposed isn\u2019t going to work, because it\u2019s one that requires people to play nicely. With respect, business\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4fbdc282ea84183ad2c589a4f7d2e0b\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: You guys know all about what doesn\u2019t work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd3253a5b1784fc2807301f62a963f42\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, it\u2019s great to have this engagement from the member across the other side, but, sir, take a call\u2014take a call. We have seen on the record that big businesses in this country do not always play nicely\u2014all right\u2014and, famously, Fonterra a few years ago just didn\u2019t play nicely. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, I appreciate that the Minister wants a solution in place and that the Minister is going to try to get a set-up where the big businesses do pay their bills on time, but I put it to you that a voluntary code is not it. Nevertheless, that\u2019s what he is proposing, and that\u2019s why I have put up this amendment. It does look like it\u2019s just frivolous\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220114ff4b697241e09a23006e29f7986b\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: Because it is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022506bc8a1c686481ba072335cdbdec5b9\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014take a call, take a call\u2014but it goes to the heart of this bill. It says that we\u2019re asking big business to play nicely. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022 data-id=\u002292022060f7564fad971c3cb00eb6c346\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002292022060f7564fad971c3cb00eb6c346\u0022\u003ETANYA UNKOVICH (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002209c37e9879e04ae2b84d1340fa710cad\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d06bbe6f25f54fdd810fecbff5e8b108\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d06bbe6f25f54fdd810fecbff5e8b108\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Helen White\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 1 is ruled out of order as being inconsistent with the principles and objects of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EThe question is that the Hon Dr Deborah Russell\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 1, replacing the words \u201CAct Repeal\u201D with \u201C(Non-Reporting)\u201D be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002237116f36d853404c8395d084a356f7c7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5e4c8af2156452fa804893c715e4257\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5e4c8af2156452fa804893c715e4257\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Dr Deborah Russell\u2019s remaining amendment to clause 1 is ruled out of order as not being a serious amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002287376b372eeb4fde9d0c536559a1e74e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1a48429191a4f5a9384f46eaea64cb4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1a48429191a4f5a9384f46eaea64cb4\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Helen White\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c42c89e233954de1bd72727b61589962\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002259978ae2396544f1a3c70208b794a4d9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000394\u0022\u003EBill to be reported without amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000395\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c566f0113d9a462db350681cf04583ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c566f0113d9a462db350681cf04583ce\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has considered the Business Payment Practices Act Repeal Bill and reports it without amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00222febbd5dc73f4fc9bcd087ed7c2bce32\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222febbd5dc73f4fc9bcd087ed7c2bce32\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for third reading immediately. Members, the time has come to break for the lunch break. The House will resume after question time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002201ef230358be46dfa6ed2d1edd8466cd\u0022\u003EMember Vacancy\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022763284ef0c94409cbf9a3b3373199d3f\u0022\u003EGreen Party, List\u2014Fa\u2019an\u0101n\u0101 Efeso Collins\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00220e721c9a43984c3c856fe1640c0cf987\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e721c9a43984c3c856fe1640c0cf987\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The House has resumed. Members, I wish to advise the House that, following the death of Fa\u02BBan\u0101n\u0101 Efeso Collins, I have given notice that the list seat in the House becomes vacant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221ddc858b7ceb4fc3888880a389b86cb6\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222bee0ef17d864f1f8c379559d17f5b3d\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c38080b4d9464c188a318630c275fbaf\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Foreign Affairs\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022357369\u0022 data-id=\u00222b6cf70324b04ff48474bc2113ae12a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022357369\u0022\u003E1.  on behalf of \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b6cf70324b04ff48474bc2113ae12a2\u0022\u003EHon JAMES SHAW (Co-Leader\u2014Green)Hon MARAMA DAVIDSON (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Foreign Affairs: Does he agree with Associate Professor of Law Treasa Dunworth, who said about the International Court of Justice ruling in the case against Israel under the Genocide Convention that New Zealand \u201Chas a legal obligation to do what it can to ensure that Israel complies with the court\u2019s orders\u201D; if so, what action is the Government taking to fulfil its legal obligation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u002266f3f237ce724596aef363a4b6dfb677\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002266f3f237ce724596aef363a4b6dfb677\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Minister of Foreign Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s important to make clear that the International Court of Justice (ICJ) has not made any determination of genocide in this case and, indeed, has not released any final ruling on the matter. What has happened so far is that the ICJ has released a provisional ruling and has taken the substantive issues under advisement. That said, of course, all countries have a general obligation to prevent and punish genocide. New Zealand has consistently called on Israel to comply with the binding interim measures\u2014that is, take all reasonable steps not to commit genocide\u2014as issued by the International Court on 26 January 2024.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f26a4054063a4ebfa003d01b7a8f87b6\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Will he unequivocally condemn Israel\u2019s use of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d51a7868a854ca4b3ad0aa96cc2a395\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I refer to Standing Order 394(2), which says that a member may ask a question on behalf of another member who is absent. But the member in whose name the question is has just emerged and is now present in the Chamber, and I just wonder if it\u2019s possible for another member to keep asking the question when that member is here?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f14d1150c7845bda912c0836117e29f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a very good point, absolutely right. The member, in whose name the question was, was not present when the question was called. We\u2019re now into supplementary questions and, as the member knows, any member from the House can ask supplementary questions. So the point is right; circumstances have changed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255eae82f940c4d3180f71ac4bf8e6234\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: What about the first supplementary; shouldn\u2019t that go to the\u00A0member?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fc24e674f9b43049e3e7eb1207c529d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, are you calling that, or\u2014I can\u2019t hear you from here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bbe215f708c4b1987b75f39dd1ca552\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Will he unequivocally condemn Israel\u2019s use of starvation as a weapon of war, which has resulted in the deaths of at least 10 children, so far, by starvation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7eb5298b8734f589ed53ee8f4d1b1f8\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: New Zealand is meeting its obligations under the genocide convention, including by clearly and consistently stating its position publicly. Since the start of the conflict, New Zealand has consistently called on all parties to comply with international law in national statements and in statements alongside Australia. Since the ICJ provisional ruling, I have engaged with representatives of around 50 countries, and developments in Gaza have been a regular topic of discussion and none of those 50\u00A0countries are left in any doubt as to what New Zealand\u2019s position is. For the member\u2019s benefit, New Zealand has been clear from the outset that the protection of civilians is paramount. The price of defeating Hamas cannot be continued at the suffering of Palestinian people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225932601d352c472fa77e08e779c029a6\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Government intervene as a third party in the case against Israel under the genocide convention, now that Israel has failed to comply with the court orders including by obstructing basic aid into Gaza and deliberately opening fire on civilians who are seeking aid?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221605b0b798814208ba045a3db36550de\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: This is what happens when one goes to academia for an expert opinion, and academia has never been in a court of law. That is not what the ICJ ruled, and that\u2019s still in abeyance in terms of the final decision, as we speak. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022928620d59a2c499dae8fe288e07f69b0\u0022\u003ETeanau Tuiono\u003C/span\u003E: Will he guarantee the continuation of New Zealand\u2019s annual funding for the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) as the main provider of humanitarian aid in Gaza?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a636f52892d4b38acc43a1584f8c003\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I want to thank that member for that question. The reality is that, as the previous Government had said, the next tranche is not due until the middle of this year, which gives us time to observe the full-scale inquiry be conducted by the United Nations at this point in time. But that said, we have gone and supported other agencies doing the same kind of work, bearing in mind that the UNRWA is a serious component, and to operate it properly is essential because there\u2019s no other possible replacement right here right now for that organisation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9e203670d1f401b94ee3edd04da1e46\u0022\u003ETeanau Tuiono\u003C/span\u003E: Does he think it is appropriate for the Government to continue diplomatic relations with Israel, including hosting the Israeli ambassador, while Israel fails to abide by its obligations under the ICJ decision and international humanitarian law?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226258c54d5efd47658da7b5aa44dfa784\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Again, when the ICJ brings out a ruling, I suggest people read it carefully and maybe take legal advice as to what it means. Because the inference in that question is that the findings were not as the international community has recognised them where Israel is concerned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca933556d02d4e57a08dbce87511ec45\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Will he consider introducing an Israel sanctions bill to Parliament to send a clear message that Aotearoa will not tolerate war crimes and genocide, just as we did in response to Russia\u2019s invasion of Ukraine?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4602e06411a40049e253c0b36f60b4d\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: With respect to that question, a previous Labour Government looked at that as an overall political change in our law and decided against it; and all of a sudden, that has changed now. Those matters are under consideration, but, at this point in time, this Government has made no such decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002222f4acfa5fae461ab13254a91ca3d664\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Climate Change\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022443edb62a7cd43ef946bdc06bdf6e3e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022443edb62a7cd43ef946bdc06bdf6e3e6\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Climate Change: Has he sought or received advice on the transport-related emission reduction impacts of the draft Government Policy Statement on land transport; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022 data-id=\u00228fb8b1d8eb504c42811a1702404da523\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228fb8b1d8eb504c42811a1702404da523\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS (Minister of Climate Change):\u003C/span\u003E Matters relating to climate change and emissions reduction issues are being worked through and addressed during the development of the second emissions reduction plan (ERP). This will include deciding the cross-sector policy mix to ensure emissions budgets are met. As such, while I have received advice, I haven\u2019t received specific advice on transport-related emissions reduction impacts of that draft Government policy statement (GPS), as this will be part of preparing ERP 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad9efe8f32ad4d3c9fdaed9e137bee8c\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Will the cutting of funding for measures in his Government\u2019s draft GPS that were recommended by the climate commission as being required to meet the first emissions reduction target, such as substantially increasing the share of central government funding dedicated to active and public transport infrastructure and reducing public transport fares to encourage greater use of public transport, put meeting\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276b5070f123e4428a341f63c8057a605\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll tell you what we\u2019re going to do\u2014sorry to interrupt the member, but questions are heard in silence. If people want to have conversations, go out to the lobbies. Please start the question again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208858bbcd951415a8def365b101ca74e\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Will the cutting of funding for measures in his Government\u2019s draft GPS that were recommended by the climate commission as being required to meet the first emissions reduction target, such as substantially increasing the share of central government funding dedicated to active and public transport infrastructure and reducing public transport fares to encourage greater use of public transport, put meeting emissions budget 1 in jeopardy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfdda81528354101b6428bed39c16968\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: Look, I have advice that the estimated impact of removing some of the initiatives which this coalition Government have signalled will have an inconsequential impact in regards to the impacts around those budgets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239689b4a9b814fa58c0a0b1796553d0b\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: What advice has he received on the impacts of the measures in the GPS, given the answer to that supplementary question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222897a2f96f854dd08c76fa8d29aba903\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: As I\u2019ve advised to the Minister, there is a range of advice that I have received, but I have not received specific advice in regards to the emissions reduction impacts in that draft GPS. That will be part of the emissions reduction 2\u00A0process, of which I will welcome the Minister\u2019s input into that process, and we start consultation in May.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022464f5bc07684442c96ab9d28029258ab\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister of Climate Change think he should have asked for advice on what the impacts are of removing measures that were recommended by the climate commission for meeting emissions budget 1? [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226470b825579f40f1b05d130f79d6f7f2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Hang on a minute, we\u2019ve got to get this right. When people are asking a question, if you don\u2019t like the question, just suck it up and listen. Please ask the question again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f492d46a24914bf49e2944a65b901f00\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Does the Minister of Climate Change think he should have asked for advice on what the specific impacts of cuts through the GPS on transport would be, and their potential of not meeting emissions budget 1?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022410f53f3f55c4351a64055f69656b57a\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: I appreciate that the former Minister may not have been particularly listening to my answer to the question, but, as I have stated\u2014and I will state again for the purposes of repetition\u2014that aspect of that process will form part of the ERP 2 process. While I have received advice, I haven\u2019t received specific advice that the Minister had asked in her primary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0947f270efe408a96899d9f5500984f\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I asked a very specific question of the member about whether or not he thought he should have asked for that specific advice. He has told us in several of his answers that he hasn\u2019t received specific advice, but I asked him if he thought he should.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232694bf4032c48cb956bc81dc796a26b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, look, lots of these points of order relating to that sort of thing in recent days\u2014I\u2019ve done quite a bit of reading to find out what other Speakers have said in the past. The question was addressed, and I think we will now move on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e2a4bbbb1334fe7b63f38a375f2258b\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister received advice on the $30 billion Lake Onslow scheme and how much money was spent by the previous Government developing the\u00A0scheme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fd6442238b54fe7a7113578e39e0adf\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The primary question relates to transport-related emission reduction. Lake Onslow, as you know, is a proposed electricity scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e02ffe3de0c44d0aedcbe3d93aca1ab\u0022\u003EHon Nicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister received any advice on the doomed light rail project and how much was wasted on that before it was cancelled?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022033d790afb8748faa113e146a6490a40\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If we\u2019re going to go down this track, we\u2019re going to get into a pretty murky place. The primary\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f74e927f907349009883d734663043f2\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s transport.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227081dce5ca6541d7aa21cef49c459fbf\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, OK, I\u2019ll get called on that; it is a transport-related question. It\u2019s very thin. It\u2019s quite\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220445582de38843c0b11973aaaf1f4fd0\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, Mr Speaker, I didn\u2019t hear that question. Could the Minister repeat that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9e44317d9d04355a1b250193b954b0a\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I simply refer you to the Standing Order that you quoted to me yesterday. The question that Nicola Willis asked falls foul of that Standing Order and, therefore, must be ruled out of order on the same basis that you pulled me up yesterday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d19d83993ed49a1a6600a2d4c175b3e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I pulled you up yesterday on the basis\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c14c1547be4e4787bbf3f132c804f9d2\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, can I help out here?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223aa41b2670154732a65be05370723fe3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227f4737e1c964e63b2b4025a16713695\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I can really help out here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275a7636709fa4c188b19adff50bc3dcf\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it had better be helpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e409c67f3d0e4017a5c2aca59a8e2e2f\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a matter of chronology. This issue was decided when this Government came into office. Therefore, it\u2019s in our bailiwick.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228715757e04084e47860742637c3928a7\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ceede8c1140a4630bb9110fa5e3cd1c1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is a fair point. I\u2019ll just make the point that I pulled you up yesterday\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227292d7b1900944b89d2856f6f487ee74\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to that point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb08817770d4427e8fb92aae1e51d06b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Hang on. I pulled you up yesterday on the skilfully put question that, essentially, asked for an opinion on your opinion, and that is the subtle difference that we\u2019ve got here. This is on a specific matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb9d2c4b35dc44bba6c84dc1a58a324f\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I think part of the issue here, actually, is that the Minister of Climate Change is not responsible for the Auckland light rail project or for the financial matters relating to that. The primary question was around emissions budgets, not fiscal budgets, and so, therefore, the supplementary question about the fiscal cost of the light rail project is not relevant to the primary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fd1bd45f0254cdab83e5e2522486ae8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is a reasonable point. I\u2019ll accept that. Are you speaking to this point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228399fd6ddfa449db92b6d7c626a17743\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a further point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b90097ae03d943749c4e16acb056f929\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, hang on. Let me deal with this one. Is that all right?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221650b4b3aed740038b7380a366f6b17d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: All right, then. Fair enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218d3e7894eb74e8bbd1dc37f6d9cddb9\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. Just in response to the former climate Minister\u2019s\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bede133e10b740d6bd6484650fa60ad5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, it\u2019s not your job to respond to him. If you\u2019ve got something new to add, tell me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022038139a38a124b11b993f654844d9b67\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it\u2019s quite clear that Auckland light rail was proposed to reduce emissions but not to reach net zero until 2060.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233eb7caf85d64708bf128e1c8d7cea4e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: With all due respect, the only one who\u2019s going to judge about the suitability of a question here today is me, so I\u2019m ruling it out, and we\u2019ll move on from\u00A0here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022218826a8cdc648e5827786b35104e21d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, Mr Speaker. The Standing Order that I was referring to was 390(1)(b), which you quoted yesterday in suggesting that my question was out of order. In fact, Nicola Willis\u2019 question falls foul of the same rule. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022016bec7c40a04b11befdd796505d8662\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, OK, but my point yesterday was that 390(1)(b) does not allow opinion, and that\u2019s the difference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d7c9001e361472f92ff53914a6dee7d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: And her question did?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226689fd6110e94ac0a509160b8feb37c8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, her question was specific, but that question\u2019s now ruled out, so it\u2019s no longer a problem for you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f68ac9de38ab4b5a94f8fe97b450d4c5\u0022\u003EDan Bidois\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that electric vehicles need roads to drive on?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c42fec84d0b7454c93a1757647127a6e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. No. No. Don\u2019t do that sort of thing. That\u2019s not going to help.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220840793cfd504d2a9c54af5fdc2e8c5f\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d389e629798f45718ba664c6de65c430\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: When we\u2019re all quiet\u2014when we\u2019re all quiet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226611ecdb585b4872a5c578dc0fb842b7\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. How much more will Kiwis be paying per litre at the pump as a consequence of his Government\u2019s policy of relying almost solely on the emissions trading scheme (ETS) pricing scheme to achieve transport emissions reductions to align with the Climate Commission\u2019s projections that economic modelling has shown needs a carbon price of $235 per tonne by 2030?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fb712bec1ef4383a4cf339f3eb3e668\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The problem is here, if I let that question through, I\u2019d be disagreeing with the position taken by the Hon James Shaw, which I did agree with. So it\u2019s either a question about emissions or it is a fiscal question. That was a fiscal question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022987749c562184145bd5c97f18fb1a7c1\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister of Climate Change has ministerial responsibility for the ETS, and that was a question about the emissions trading scheme and what the price would need to be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022747b29509b60424e92a1325d59756283\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: All right. Fair enough. I\u2019m sure he can answer it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228aafcbe79564ba6ab4b7e515e345a19\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. As Minister of Climate Change, I don\u2019t comment on the price of the ETS, nor in regards to what it does, but what I can say to the former Minister is that the way in which this Government will take actions around the reduction of emissions will be different from the prior Government, and we\u2019ll be working through the emissions reduction plan 2, of which I welcome the former Minister\u2019s input into in order to make sure we\u2019ve got a credible plan to deliver those targets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221eca173689ac4f00a2df02484b948849\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Does he think it is fair that Kiwis will be hit with a petrol price hike of between 40c and 50c a litre, based on that carbon price of $235 a tonne, because of his Government\u2019s plan of cutting transport projects and programmes that will reduce emissions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022713ccc5b-7ff0-4fa5-ab58-4780620184fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022921e8fc550b1425286614a67946a9bf8\u0022\u003EHon SIMON WATTS\u003C/span\u003E: What I can say is unfair to New Zealanders is the fact that this coalition Government has inherited a situation where there isn\u2019t a clear pathway in order to meet some of our reductions, because of the inaction by the prior Government and that former Minister. We are going to address that issue through the progress we do around the emissions reduction 2 programme, and I look forward to being able to tell you more about that in due course.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a298b63f918c48619df8da684c4ef478\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022 data-id=\u00225240c3d6732749eeb059db3832fabaa9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225240c3d6732749eeb059db3832fabaa9\u0022\u003ESUZE REDMAYNE (National\u2014Rangit\u012Bkei)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: How much will the Government spend this year on financing its debt? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u00228feb1e85b28a4af6bba0aa59a3e670b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228feb1e85b28a4af6bba0aa59a3e670b2\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E In the current financial year, Treasury is forecasting that the cost of financing Government debt\u2014which is almost entirely interest payments\u2014will be $8.8 billion, and according to forecasts in the half-year update, which assume the previous Government policies are continued, this is expected to rise to $9.7 billion in the next financial year, and $10.4 billion in the year after that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264ba4cbd816e4c57b561ed3f0e1bb5dc\u0022\u003ESuze Redmayne\u003C/span\u003E: How have the Government\u2019s finance costs changed over time? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a872267d511240f88547d9b5f6cfcb0c\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Finance costs are expected to be $8.8 billion this year. By comparison, finance costs in 2017-18 were $3.5 billion, so they have more than doubled, or grown more than 150 percent, since that time. In fact, yes\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f48d1b5e4d0434f861b6b707bfe7211\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Was the interest rate the same? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022613f24f50dbf4086bcdf1e5a710db5f9\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The member opposite is concerned that interest rates are very high after six years of his economic mismanagement. Now, finance costs were relatively moderate even two years ago, but have skyrocketed since then because of higher interest rates and greater debt issuance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bf35a28fc8d4a239f641456c0f13b18\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: So can the Minister of Finance confirm that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274d1ea59d5194d4c914e59259d163f79\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. That wasn\u2019t a question word that he started with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022baa8335ce0ec438b9f8427cab2448083\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I know that you\u2019re a Doctor of Law; I didn\u2019t know grammar was one of your strong points. However, I\u2019m sure he\u2019ll have another go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8599103644848cb845b51c576823044\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Maybe they should have a \u201CGrammar\u201D in Christchurch. To the Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d99c17a850141aa91ef31b3310e1626\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. Hang on\u2014I did pick up people yesterday. No comments before you ask a question. Just ask the question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f06f9d46aa094454b91e9d12dd8e066f\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, fair enough. Can she confirm what she is saying is that pretty soon, on the fiscal track we\u2019ve inherited, the Government will be paying $10\u00A0billion a year, $200-plus per citizen, or $1,000 a year for a family of five just on the interest on the debt these guys left? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c557364b7f04c93ba1d966b55a913af\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister makes real an issue that the last Government left to us, and to further his analysis, I would put it this way: the finance costs alone of meeting our debt this year will equate to $1,666 for every person in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b80070c9106d48c39f4600bbafaf94af\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Giving it a geographic inflection, does that mean, for example, that Otago University will be paying $10 million a year just to pay off the interest on their debt? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226514099c970743b7b4113f15918a7693\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I don\u2019t take responsibility\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e7525e125d04efb889f855d7f0c1b64\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022947c6900604540fabb9d9877e72c60d1\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014for the finances of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac93604bb8a6420db8f6617885350a14\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And no further comment. If you\u2019ve got a\u2014[Interruption] Look, sometimes those questions might appear to be fun, but they\u2019re not helpful and they\u2019re not in order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b80062955ba4809b1c0b61a1f1a524b\u0022\u003ESuze Redmayne\u003C/span\u003E: How do finance costs compare with other areas of Government spending? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1d990a19f6c4ee790a19527f58e8206\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: At $8.8 billion, finance costs are forecast to be higher this year than spending on primary and secondary schools combined, or, putting it another way, finance costs are forecast to be higher this year than Government spending on the Defence Force, the Police, Corrections, and Customs combined. In fact, they are around $1 billion higher than that\u2014$1 billion higher than spending on the Defence Force, the\u00A0Police, Corrections, and Customs combined. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257645bf62d884d358a76c9f628ab011f\u0022\u003ESuze Redmayne\u003C/span\u003E: How much are the Government\u2019s finance costs per New Zealander? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296f15bfb02d141efab675d0ad1172c53\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Finance costs of $8.8 billion this year equate to $1,666 for every person in New Zealand. Government debt in New Zealand is too high, thanks to the financial mismanagement of the previous Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e08870c63dc04c2e9b88d68d22b2b940\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: What percentage of GDP is the cost of borrowing at the moment, and how does this compare with the past? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a09043956cc14c29bdf43d5815fddd59\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The cost of borrowing at the moment relates to the official cash rate as it sits very high, at 5.5 percent, and the cost of servicing our debt as a proportion of GDP has risen to 43 percent by the old measure we used to measure debt before that member changed the measure to make it look lower. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226007dc96-f459-4cdd-9972-4fde2c994088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce4f0d2a839f4f5ca51480354286402b\u0022\u003EHon Grant Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I want to give the member the benefit of the doubt. That wasn\u2019t the question I asked. The question I asked was what the cost of borrowing, the subject of this question\u2014what that is as a percentage of GDP, and not New Zealand\u2019s overall debt, which is what she answered about. So I\u2019ll offer her the chance to answer now, rather than have to come back and correct. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e331510f5c8f45f698f233a77865e6b0\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Mr Speaker, is that a supplementary question or is it a point of order, or something in between? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223063cd32fae74917923f4e117c79a496\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, it was\u2014you started speaking before I got a chance to comment, but it is a reasonable clarification of the answer. I just want to make it very clear that points of order are not methods to be able to ask the question again, but there was a seeking of clarification, and I accept that the answer probably missed the percentage of GDP point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219b076548a1b49eb8f562c8b2d63ae5e\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as a proportion of GDP, those finance costs are high. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022448e1f527fe44e3586c2c855ae4bad24\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Transport\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u002216fdfbc16e024ba7a2940a8ca40173ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002216fdfbc16e024ba7a2940a8ca40173ed\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: Kia orana, Mr Speaker. Does he stand by all his statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022c947616aca3e4bf08c93a2ecf8fde4ec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c947616aca3e4bf08c93a2ecf8fde4ec\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I stand by all my statements and actions, particularly when I said that investments in the draft Government policy statement (GPS) 2024 will ensure key connections are provided so that Kiwis can get to where they need to go quickly and safely. These investments will also reduce congestion on our roads, provide low-emission transport options in our main cities, and create a more productive and resilient transport network, driving economic growth and unlocking land for thousands of new houses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c251221e5ca4e71bcc8d83b88fea283\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: When he said yesterday, \u201Cbut the reality is\u2014the reality is\u2014that we need to ensure that we set out the funding parameters to be able to deliver the infrastructure New Zealanders need\u201D, how can New Zealanders have any confidence that he won\u2019t be introducing other taxes, fees, or levies to cover the fiscal holes that his transport plan clearly has?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc23721996294387bfd2bd331c893aae\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Because the reality is\u2014the reality is\u2014that the GPS outlines exactly how we\u2019re going to fund\u2014I think it\u2019s on page 27, for the member\u2019s benefit, or 29; I can\u2019t quite remember right now\u2014the projects and the outcomes in our draft GPS document. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cede1d80f17e4071bf3f9791f8ffebed\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Who is correct, National MP\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fbb46fc63b2405d8d7836ad83b781d8\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Hang on\u2014hang on. Just wait. Your own colleagues are sort of a bit animated at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a421583f3cd44309d037c8bea4702c2\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s great support. Who is correct, National MP Simeon Brown, who said, \u201CNational\u2019s fully-costed transport plan will deliver 13 new Roads of National Significance and four major public transport projects \u2013 and does not require increases to petrol tax.\u201D, or the New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA), who estimate that there is a fiscal hole in his transport plan of up to $24.4\u00A0billion, or 110 percent more than he had originally estimated?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdd1d1db687c4fb6a120a76c4a35be86\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Simeon Brown is correct, because this GPS is not increasing fuel excise duty and road-user charges in the three years of this Government\u2019s term.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291d0df572f20445ebb6e12e3d4fd3d9b\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Government deliver reliable, effective, and efficient public transport as a priority for Kiwi households when it intends to scrap free and half-price fares for under-25s, and when its draft GPS takes over $1.5 billion from public transport, which also cuts the ability of local councils to provide additional transport fare subsidies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022451c61d07b604760b4cdb7ab2e8e36af\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if the member read the draft GPS document, it outlines the fact that under the last Government, farebox recovery fell from 40 percent of running public transport services to 13 percent, and so the reality is that we need to ensure that people who use public transport are helping support it. But I\u2019d also point out to the members opposite, they had six years in Government, they spent $228 million on \u201CAuckland Light Fail\u201D and failed to deliver it. We started the City Rail Link and we\u2019re going to complete it. We have a proud track record on public transport.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c5c44c1d1b14e10952f4585393b6f21\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: No one believes that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a92f6cc31cd04eee80eaf8f742faa413\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: What is the total value\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b146cb40145f4a42abe8b6708c8ce4de\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Hang on. Even an affirmation of someone\u2019s question is a breach of the convention that the question gets asked with the House listening in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e30b629654143ac82143b64e89ca0e9\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: What is the total value of the proposed roads of national significance in the South Island compared with the overall value of all 15 roads of national significance, and what does that level of investment say to mainlanders about the importance this Government places on South Island projects?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd4fea1ed49649cf800a9774fc0d9603\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, there\u2019s a range of estimates around the projects. But what I\u2019d point out is there are a number of key projects in the South Island that we\u2019ll be prioritising: the Woodend Bypass\u2014advocated by the member Matt Doocey\u2014the Ashburton bridge, the Hope Bypass, and better road maintenance. That last Government cancelled, cancelled, cancelled, cancelled. We\u2019re going to deliver.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e49d31b065649918e2c3c0a08c79754\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Mr Speaker, that question was very specific. It\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc395728f44e445c96b5a0ce40007b59\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Points of order are heard in silence, so don\u2019t interfere or don\u2019t make a noise when people are making them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9f9d21e4c564aa8ab63894e639bd409\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, that question was very specific about the value rather than the numbers, and I suggest to you that the Minister has not addressed the specific point in the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fd3558cdaf747deaf0aff0c39ca9b83\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think the Minister more than addressed the question. He talked about the proposals. If the Minister wants to add a link he can, but I think the question was\u00A0addressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b09b188795945b9bcb00f06658ada82\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: What feedback has he received on the draft Government policy statement on land transport?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7dbef5a85c3426d95e57a098272ed94\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019ve received a range of correspondence over the past few days since we released the draft GPS. Let me read two of them: \u201CDear Simeon, congratulations on your excellent draft GPS.\u201D And another one: \u201CWell done. New Zealand needs these 15 roads of national significance ASAP.\u201D [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227117f5b6dfbb4bbf9a1ee24599f75105\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just wait. Are we ready?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f7608dbbb2b44d593a8c7623dd54712\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: What advice has he received regarding plans to scrap up to $20 million of funding for coastal shipping, and what impact would this have on New Zealand\u2019s resilience against major events such as the Kaik\u014Dura earthquake?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abbcfeb9f14e455cad6536e3c0a00f8c\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: Nothing; it\u2019s the land transport fund. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f32581092e504465b753902a891e49d2\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as my colleague the Hon Chris Bishop says, it is the National Land Transport Fund. Last time I saw, our ships run on water, and cars and trucks run on the land. This is about the land, not the sea. We\u2019re not continuing the coastal fund under the last Government. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e39572d5aef0481581b9f0a78b2f2869\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just hang on. OK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249e75e8ed258497ebcfb603aca5f2b2f\u0022\u003ERachel Boyack\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that constituents in my electorate of Nelson will be paying more with a 22c fuel tax hike and a $50 jump in vehicle registration fees but getting less after the Nelson Mail reported this morning that he\u2019s dropped one of our two major transport projects from the Government policy statement on transport?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ed7eb3431894cf0a797c6794e2adfbe\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the good news for the good people of Nelson and Tasman is that they will be getting the Hope Bypass under this GPS. I encourage the regional land transport plan to put forward its proposals, and the national land transport programme will be developed by the NZTA over the coming six months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1b22593972445a2ba5fedc9faca3c9a\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister think that the confusion behind that penultimate question relates to the fact that Waka Kotahi is actually a boat on the road, and while the potholes were building up in their tens of thousands of kilometres, they went ahead with that sort of behaviour?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022594d66e55cb54cb498d8dc7f6b4a65d9\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a\u2014no. We\u2019ll move now to question No. 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002262727b0db77f4d209aee151a6b2f95ba\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022 data-id=\u0022c4bde352fe4b47cfac054e83a78c387c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c4bde352fe4b47cfac054e83a78c387c\u0022\u003EDEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori)\u003C/span\u003E to the Acting Prime Minister: Does he stand by all his Government\u2019s policies and statements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022603f61c376884dc48ab4974ad4c897b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022603f61c376884dc48ab4974ad4c897b0\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Acting Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, within the context in which they were delivered, and, unlike some, we won\u2019t be double-crossing that bridge when we come to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a383de8a3444935b358f4ef6ce3f2b6\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: How is it appropriate for this Government to put a Minister in charge of the Ka Ora, Ka Ako free school lunch programme who described it as \u201Cwasteful\u201D, \u201Cunaffordable\u201D, and a \u201Cmarketing stunt\u201D while in Opposition, without any evidence?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272ec052669294dc586ea66b04cf7b168\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the reality is that what was said in Opposition is not accountable in this Parliament for the Government. But it\u2019s understandable when you see the Treasury commissioned a report when they were in Government\u2014they made a report in July of last year, talking about how the whole thing was a massive failure, and, worse than that, massive losses were occasioned by wasted food or food being sent home. It was meant to be food in schools, not food in homes. This was careless spending which was never budgeted to go forward into the year we\u2019re talking about, and that\u2019s why Mr\u00A0Seymour\u2019s having to handle this problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bac187b788c4b88b8e1c414893aa6f2\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: How many schools and tamariki would be impacted by a 30 percent to 50 percent cut to the free school lunches?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022990d6d56f83e40b898e40e3c123520c6\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: At the moment, the Minister is doing work on that, going through school after school. But the reality is that there are some very, very disturbing reports about the amount of waste. There is surely no one who believes in this programme, which was supported across this Parliament, who thinks that that sort of waste should remain unaccountable. I know some people in this country, because they know nothing about poverty, think that sort of waste is good. But out there in the real M\u0101ori world and Polynesian world, they want the food delivered to schools to be used by those children, and not by everybody else who\u2019s not entitled to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022570483da32214fe6b4f5f6393f3da9e3\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Which schools or kura have been consulted regarding potential cuts to the free lunches programme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246e90b6f494243af9bac26857b9df092\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the reality is that the Government has put its programme out there, it\u2019s gone public on it, and it\u2019s working its way through it. But it is a result of a July 2023 evaluation that came from Treasury to that Government about which they did precisely nothing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a76db18-baa4-41c1-b366-89e2c753a1e7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac48ab10ea474044b3e3b6d62e32aa4a\u0022\u003EDebbie Ngarewa-Packer\u003C/span\u003E: Does he believe that hunger impacts a child\u2019s ability to learn, and, if so, will he commit to preserving the school lunch programme, given that poverty is not a choice for tamariki?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228eafbc2b06f94914a30a4b5d3f7f487f\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: The reality is that if some people have a memory, they\u2019ll realise that for decades and decades and decades, free lunches have been available at school, made by the local community, and I\u2019m not being chauvinist here but usually made by the senior girls, because they could be trusted. Many of us remember it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e0ec27fc9244c9f96d78697cf4dff55\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: M\u0101ori Women\u2019s Welfare League.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022534926baffb84540bbb51e72cd20ef1c\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: The M\u0101ori Women\u2019s Welfare League\u2014all involved. But we will ensure that every cent we spend for the purpose gets to the purpose and does not amount to waste.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd79603ad4a94388913d16493c462103\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: What evidence has he seen that military boot camps will work to reduce youth crime?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b36894bc58541849555b5aa99bc6589\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: The evidence is to be found in a very insightful piece of work that began in 2017 with the Limited Service Volunteers, which was so successful under Ron Mark, an enlightened Minister of Defence at the time, that they decided to enlarge it. The evidence is all there. Ask people like punanga, ask people who actually were the head of the military of this country of their understanding. It has transformed M\u0101ori lives, in particular.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1bf546427ec45efa34027a7ee45da88\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: How can he be confident that these boot camps will work when the last time a National Government introduced them in 2008, 85 to 87 percent of those in the programme went on to reoffend within two years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d189d3baa254c9c8b21b34eebc7de9d\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, obviously, the present Government has learnt from the past experience, learnt from the mistakes, has got the record of the Limited Service Volunteers success story, and, more importantly, in the M\u0101ori world, where so many people are so disconnected, this is one utility that will connect them to the rest of the country and make their lives real. We believe, as punanga and all those great M\u0101ori leaders believe, that the military can transform and change people\u2019s lives and make them law abiding at the same time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e0b63d92c364413a90619ee14a5dd813\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Resources\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022 data-id=\u00222c01b0bce41248cb9586b48d6b6d1d2a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c01b0bce41248cb9586b48d6b6d1d2a\u0022\u003ETANYA UNKOVICH (NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Resources: What announcements has he made regarding petroleum exploration?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022 data-id=\u00228313db497c674c35b4ce4a2c6118a880\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228313db497c674c35b4ce4a2c6118a880\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES (Minister for Resources):\u003C/span\u003E Today, I\u2019ve announced one petroleum exploration permit has been granted to Greymouth Gas Turangi Ltd. I have also announced that I\u2019ll be introducing a bill later this year that will overturn the previous regime\u2019s ban on new permits for petroleum exploration beyond the onshore Taranaki region. Important steps in the journey of New Zealand\u2019s resilience.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7fb6606fdfb47e5b5c4969589d5da74\u0022\u003ETanya Unkovich\u003C/span\u003E: Why do we need oil and gas?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d20fc3c78bd144448d1b289f31a525ad\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: The former ban, soon to disappear, created inordinate sovereign risk for investment in New Zealand. Advice and modelling show that the supply of gas is uncertain and may not match future demand. We need gas to keep the lights on in the electricity system, and, as the responsible Minister, on a cold and chilly night, I don\u2019t want to see the men and women of New Zealand reduced to jiggling to keep warm.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e24b9bd960349c49a7201b18c70a9b1\u0022\u003ETanya Unkovich\u003C/span\u003E: What else is he working on?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fb2fea4fe724efc889f637b8709dc16\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: I will be introducing, as I said, a bill to overturn the crippling and ghastly announcement that led to a cessation of new permits for petroleum exploration. As an act of penance, I am going to visit investors overseas, talk to New Zealand current investors, and convince them that was a minor negative blip in the recent trajectory of New Zealand history.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220cf9e3bb58eb472fa3086f561ad6136b\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Further to the answer on his behalf in the House on 29\u00A0February, when it was stated that he had written to those people for their views and ideas in regard to the taxpayer-funded underwrite for the oil and gas industry, who were those people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220cf3857cc64c432bbae74a1b7717f3e7\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: I have spoken to lobbyists, representatives of all of the members of the peak body. I have shared what I heard from them publicly, and I bet the majority of the English-speaking world have heard my views.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ac2fbd104444899b3ad5255ccce78a5\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I am seeking your guidance because I was asking in regard to an answer that had been given on behalf of the Minister in this House: that he had written to those people for their views and ideas. It was an answer in the House\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211cc24172fe444aa8194b2c70ca01359\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, yeah\u2014get to the point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efc1b5c4efca4b7eb84f48581e924b51\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and the Minister did not tell us who he had written to. He\u00A0was very specific: he said he had spoken. I asked who he had written to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ff1735fc90e4b9fb16168b7e6a26a9e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: OK. Well, we can get pedantic if we like, but he just has to address your question. He did, and he said that he had spoken to all members of the peak body that represents the extractive industries. Now, interpretation of that is not for me; it\u2019s for the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274e8a0c0d6ee40c092a29b1edfa4abbc\u0022\u003ESteve Abel\u003C/span\u003E: What is the Minister\u2019s response to the International Energy Agency executive director, Fatih Birol, who said three years ago in 2021, \u201CIf Governments are serious about the climate crisis, there can be no new investments in oil, gas, and coal, from now\u2014from this year [2021].\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022415ac9d1041045a099dab27bccfe8c94\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: I am aware of those remarks. I am also aware of the feelings and the concerns amongst the New Zealand voting public who want the lights on. Gas exploration, gas development, gas delivery will be an integral feature of our ongoing electricity system until such time the clean, green dream comes true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022486e46860b804985a4c4bc2f33ed7669\u0022\u003ETanya Unkovich\u003C/span\u003E: What does the lack of interest from industry in Block Offer 2020 mean for the new Government\u2019s plans for reinstating offshore petroleum exploration?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251767d798a6a4b91ac20d6175c7ad7d1\u0022\u003EHon SHANE JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Our Government is committed to rebuilding investor confidence in New Zealand as an attractive and secure destination. They have raised the question: what about if the Government changes? To wit my response has been: wait 12\u00A0years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b7ceaaf853c84687bc50781377ab6cfe\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Public Service\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022 data-id=\u0022759928b8a74249a89cc6b21ac025ea41\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022759928b8a74249a89cc6b21ac025ea41\u0022\u003EHon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for the Public Service: Does she stand by her answer, \u201CI make that promise\u201D, said in response to the question, \u201CWill you promise no cuts to any front-line services\u201D; if so, why has Fire and Emergency New Zealand been told their front-line services are \u201Cnot necessarily immune\u201D from Public Service cuts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce3e5128f84345898ddc44d49248f465\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce3e5128f84345898ddc44d49248f465\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister for the Public Service):\u003C/span\u003E Well, yes, I do. With respect to the second part of the question about Fire and Emergency New Zealand (FENZ), the member is referring to an email written by somebody at FENZ, an extract of which I\u2019ve seen for the first time today. I am not responsible for that email, although I can\u2019t see why the member is so offended by an email that says \u201Cfront-line services are to be protected\u201D and \u201Cunless clearly obvious that efficiencies can be gained without affecting services\u201D. Perhaps if members opposite had had a thought about efficiency over the past six years, we wouldn\u2019t have 80 percent increases in spending without better public services delivered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2300b94e02c43b78003203e2f22d13b\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Weren\u2019t New Zealanders entitled to know before the election that cuts to the 111 emergency call centre and vital supports for firefighters were part of her plan, and that her promise of no front-line cuts was worthless?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242b3613ee69b41b3ab508cb8f30d930f\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. The member opposite has made a series of factually wrong assertions, which I was always advised as an upcoming member that you should be very careful in your questions to ensure that any statements you made were correct and defendable. The statements that member has made are incorrect and indefensible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aadede2f676c47729a8f12a307c98750\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That would also be a reasonable answer to what was a borderline question. So perhaps if the Minister would like to address those same points as an answer to that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b65d6a17234c4a839354710ec5865b0a\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, how wrong she is\u2014let me count the ways. Fire and Emergency New Zealand has not been set a savings target. As a Crown entity, it has been asked by its monitoring agency, the Department of Internal Affairs, to look for savings and to operate efficiently. I would also note for the member that the vast majority of the funding that Fire and Emergency New Zealand receives is received by way of levy, not by Crown funding. So the question from the member is confused. It is wrong. Firefighters can be assured, under this coalition Government, they can get on and fight fire.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a1865733d4448978e80f7172d74477a\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Does she stand by the Government\u2019s commitment to 6.5\u00A0percent savings in Police, when they have advised their Minister that the cuts they would need to make would undermine their ability to recruit an additional 500 front-line police officers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229289e33951c647c0ba01085a5c5c0623\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: As I have said on a number of occasions, our Government will ensure that front-line services are protected in the Budget 2024 savings exercise. We have asked agencies to put forward their proposals for delivering more efficiency; for eliminating back-room waste; for ensuring that they\u2019re not spending too much on consultants and contractors, low-value programmes, and ineffective programmes. Agencies have been asked to put forward proposals. We will then, as Ministers, evaluate those proposals before making any decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a470106ddb4c42e9be5493828454a501\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: So, in that case, can she guarantee that the 6.5 percent savings she has asked for from Police will be reinvested in the Police budget?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022127290fc97c04b04b52f4c9b982864a8\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022916a72fab9324911a72f026764a877d5\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: Why did she conduct her line-by-line analysis of wasteful spending in a way that puts public servants out of work but didn\u2019t manage to uncover that the Prime Minister was claiming an accommodation allowance for a mortgage-free home he owns while being able to stay at Premier House?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e49a870f27bb4282ab90982a35e71d85\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it may be the view of that member that every single extra public servant her Government employed was the best use of a Government dollar. But, on this side of the House, we know that the needs in our schools, the needs in our hospitals, and the need to fight law and order are such that we must ensure that every dollar of taxpayer money goes to its best use in our front-line services, and we make no apologies for driving more value from the enormous amount of Government spending that goes on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224acfe14b874d4d668203df971539f5ba\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: How can she justify the Government prioritising an unnecessary sixth investigation into the benefits of giving poor kids lunch, when the Prime Minister\u2019s claiming of an accommodation allowance for a mortgage-free home went unnoticed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222018812fe8d949539bfd2d0eb1b5ffc0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, hang on. Have a go at bringing that question into line. There was a use of a term in there that\u2019s not appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022aed260be-c954-464b-bb75-85579e53d05a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226860dc27a7bd49acb567a1fa904549fb\u0022\u003EHon Dr Ayesha Verrall\u003C/span\u003E: How can she justify the Government\u2019s prioritisation of a sixth investigation into the benefits of giving poor kids lunch, when the Prime Minister\u2019s claiming of an accommodation allowance for a mortgage-free home went unnoticed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220162ee873873422d9eb8c59fd02dff88\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, as the member should know, the outgoing Government left an enormous fiscal cliff for the school lunch programme. What that meant was there wasn\u2019t funding provided for that programme into the future. Now, our good, responsible Government has decided that we will safeguard funding so that programme can continue. And in doing so, in line with our values, we will ensure that we\u2019re delivering it in a cost-effective, high-value manner, because unlike that member, we don\u2019t think it\u2019s a good use of taxpayers\u2019 funds to have uneaten lunches stacked a tower high. That\u2019s wasteful, and we\u2019re going to make sure the programme\u2019s more efficient.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cf75e97cbe934a15b9d300b4442242dd\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014Housing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022e173d61a494a4cdbb120440bc1b49f42\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e173d61a494a4cdbb120440bc1b49f42\u0022\u003ENANCY LU (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Housing: What recent announcements has he made on the Government\u2019s housing priorities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00225a688779415046078c3ef9de9dc2d0d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a688779415046078c3ef9de9dc2d0d5\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E This afternoon, alongside the Minister for Social Development and Employment and the Associate Minister of Housing, I\u00A0announced a series of first steps the Government has taken to end the large-scale use of emergency housing. It will be fair to say this is one of the biggest public policy failures in New Zealand history. Under the last Government\u2019s watch, thousands of children were just consigned to growing up in motels. As part of our 100-day plan, we established a Priority One category for families with children in emergency housing, helping them move into social housing faster. One of this Government\u2019s priorities is to end the large-scale use of emergency housing motels. This is no solution to our housing crisis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0c13c02f5644108b38b6e6a501f361c\u0022\u003ENancy Lu\u003C/span\u003E: What actions is the Government taking to implement this new Priority One category?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee036e9699534ff3ab0335d4e2a921e4\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Between now and August, we\u2019ll be working to strengthen emergency housing verification processes, review eligibility settings, limit discretion, and clarify an applicant\u2019s responsibilities while in emergency housing. This will help make sure that it is only accessed where absolutely necessary, and, in the meantime, Ministry of Social Development (MSD) staff will be assessing anyone applying for emergency housing to increase their scrutiny of whether or not they\u2019ve unreasonably contributed to their immediate housing needs, whether they\u2019ve taken reasonable efforts to access other housing options, and whether they\u2019ve previously paid their emergency housing contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ad6179af66146a4a599537d5d08fcaf\u0022\u003ENancy Lu\u003C/span\u003E: What are the next steps the Government will be taking when it comes to ending the large-scale use of motels for emergency housing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8da79b1c5b64ec680faeaf18ea21d30\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: This Government is committed to ending the large-scale use of emergency housing motels and returning them to a rarely and briefly needed last resort. I want to be clear with the House that solving emergency housing will not be easy and it will not happen immediately. I also want to be clear that we are considering bold and radical steps. We\u2019ll be exploring a range of options, including better support to prevent the need for emergency housing in the first place, as well as for those who exit, and we\u2019ll be applying a social investment lens to this problem, targeting support where people need it and looking at innovative options like social bonds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4209e4098bb426387bc66ef5954bbf5\u0022\u003ENancy Lu\u003C/span\u003E: What actions have been taken to streamline accountability within Government, regarding emergency housing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da84c5d014d74ee096c8e6701bdf6ec4\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: One of the things that came up a lot in the last term of the Parliament was the confusing lines of accountability in this area, where it was never really clear who was actually responsible for emergency housing. The Prime Minister has agreed that between Ministers Upston, Potaka, and myself, the housing-related functions of MSD, including emergency housing, will sit within the housing portfolio, and that will be delegated to Minister Potaka as Associate Minister of Housing. Without clear lines of responsibility, there can\u2019t be accountability\u2014this Government is not scared of either. Solving emergency housing won\u2019t be easy and it won\u2019t happen immediately. We will take those bold and radical steps to end the scourge and blight on our landscape of thousands of kids growing up in motels.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002288236f615bdf4b93a9e1049fceba02aa\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Transport\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u002286129a232c9244ad8222a96dfb4ab89d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002286129a232c9244ad8222a96dfb4ab89d\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: Will it be possible for the New Zealand Transport Agency and councils to deliver integrated transport projects that include other improvements, such as busways, bus lanes, public transport stops, and footpaths as part of larger road or highway projects, under his draft Government Policy Statement on transport?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd7c2d970410415486cb48678925784d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd7c2d970410415486cb48678925784d\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299ce0b825a07484d9039b9bcbc052078\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: Has he received any advice on whether the statement on page 25 of the Government policy statement (GPS) regarding State highway improvements\u2014and I quote\u2014\u201CThe Government expects that funding in this activity class will not be used to make multimodal improvements, i.e., cycleways and busways\u201D\u2014what impact that statement will have on the cost-effectiveness and delivery of integrated transport projects?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222cecc2d5ad064a32be8a9dc9cb0fbd35\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, there is also another activity class called public transport improvements and if the New Zealand Transport Agency or a council would like to make an investment which includes improvements to the roads, they would apply for funding under the State highway improvements. If they also want to make investments around public transport improvements, they\u2019d apply for funding under the public transport investment activity class.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b82fd75114694ad79e4a2ef85d98d8d7\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: Is it his expectation that the New Zealand Transport Agency will futureproof for public transport and safe walking and cycling access when building the new priority urban highways that his Government has promised?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a457f58e7ff4d029a58ff76d4d01749\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s my expectation that the New Zealand Transport Agency and road controlling authorities will give effect to the Government policy statement on transport, and that outlines the activity classes, what they will be used to fund, and our expectations around what the priority projects are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcffd2502f4d4869bb0897a0417ffd24\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: Is he aware that no previous Government policy statement, including under the last National Government, ever treated transport funding and delivery in this way\u2014there was no comparable statement in previous GPSs that excluded multimodal funding from State highway projects?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ff4bd07109f40b2924108e3e01e80a3\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, this is a very new Government and a very focused Government, and we\u2019re focused on outcomes. So when we say that the State highway improvement activity class should be about focusing on building roads, we don\u2019t expect that that money will be spent on then building a cycleway. The last Government, in their last draft GPS, wanted to use the road maintenance budget to build cycleways. Well, that\u2019s not what this Government\u2019s priorities are. It\u2019s to fix potholes. So we have a very focused draft GPS and I just say to the member: submissions are open until 2 April; I encourage her to make a submission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cb1d1eec4c8427e830dff9fbdcffb4d\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: Does his expectation for the transport agency and road controlling authorities, set out on page 25 and 26 of the GPS, to prioritise reliable travel times and investment decisions, apply to users of public transport or does it only apply to motor vehicles?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbf97b04004641b4a1e29755eadecc2a\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, our expectation is that the New Zealand Transport Agency and road controlling authorities would focus on reducing travel times, reliable travel times, so that people can get where they need to go quickly and safely. Under the last Government, there was no consideration for people\u2019s time. We want to make sure the transport system is working to reduce travel times so that people get where they need to go quickly and safely, regardless of what mode they choose to take.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a395a6b6528424aa49a88b4f5e10613\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Mr Speaker, my question was very specific about whether prioritising reliable travel times applied to all users of the transport system or whether it only applies to travel times for motor vehicles, private motor vehicles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2c879d49d1d409b88e9cb0b62dece1a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The answer was pretty clear that the expectation is that people will be able to travel as quickly and speedily as possible. I don\u2019t think you could take anything else out of that answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e239ed8ed3b7403886e654dde4b86497\u0022\u003EHon Julie Anne Genter\u003C/span\u003E: So\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022372c9e33d2d64242918f9c122a4f2581\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not arguing with you, and you shouldn\u2019t argue with me. Any further questions? Then we\u2019ll move now to question No. 10 in the name of Tom Rutherford.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227dac380d52374ee683f749864800431d\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Transport\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u002220b6f8545a914498ba70095ec3f89216\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002220b6f8545a914498ba70095ec3f89216\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: What recent announcements has he made about transport investment in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022cac7d068279f412dbe30a87adf9a7574\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cac7d068279f412dbe30a87adf9a7574\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Well, earlier this week, the Prime Minister and I released the draft Government policy statement (GPS) on land transport, announcing that we\u2019re establishing a $500 million pothole prevention fund to tackle the record number of potholes on our roads. There were over 62,000 potholes needing repair on the State highway network last year\u2014a new record made by that last Government\u2014causing damage to vehicles and travel disruptions for Kiwis around the country. We\u00A0will address it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267cea58ddbd1481499c3c91510531240\u0022\u003ERyan Hamilton\u003C/span\u003E: What does the Government policy statement mean for the mighty Waikato?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220933c23eab494ce6a317c24f88ca3739\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Great news for the mighty Waikato\u2014great news. We\u2019ve listed State Highway 1 Cambridge to Piarere, which was, in fact, cancelled by the previous Government. It will be a road of national significance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208bff90784c2430d94a3d2f499f454b7\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. I doubt I have to say it, but that was a patsy question and a swipe at the previous Government\u2019s policies\u2014entirely inappropriate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227109d672d8a94a87a60167141700d73c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a fair enough point of order. Supplementary questions cannot be used to mount an attack on a previous Government. That\u2019s always been the case. So I\u2019m going to ask Ryan Hamilton if he\u2019d like to ask a question again. Same question, but we\u2019ll get a different answer, I hope.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002294b52412-f97b-4bbd-8009-5dc49520f7f4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229dddff5e2e9d40c594ae200a24707734\u0022\u003ERyan Hamilton\u003C/span\u003E: What does the Government policy statement mean for the mighty Waikato?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc206820ca50482d8d3c50b7af61910c\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, great news for the mighty Waikato\u2014great news. We\u2019ve listed State Highway 1 Cambridge to Piarere as a road of national significance, to improve economic growth and boost productivity. Reports show that this project is expected to contribute up to $500\u00A0million a year to New Zealand\u2019s GDP, benefiting all New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257c0c650-e6a0-4475-b66d-5281ede8b1e3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1d2e4d37dd34dada15f3fabff1e84b1\u0022\u003ESuze Redmayne\u003C/span\u003E: What does the Government policy statement mean for New Zealand\u2019s rural communities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285c5b37d73694442b8b2e2aef6f1ad8d\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, very good news for our rural communities. The draft GPS ensures the maintenance funds are ring-fenced to fix potholes and to prevent potholes by ensuring that State highways, local and rural roads, are maintained to a safe and reliable standard. Our rural communities are fed up with the number of potholes peppering our roads. And unlike the previous Government\u2014oh no, I won\u2019t say that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db9c25db08dc45719730d67cee7487b8\u0022\u003EMiles Anderson\u003C/span\u003E: What does the Government policy statement mean for the South\u00A0Island?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022debd10ad10774144bf5febc5c060fc77\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Very good news\u2014very good news. In addition to the Woodend bypass and second Ashburton bridge, the draft GPS prioritises investment in a number of critically important bridge replacements, which is very important to the South Island. Our $500 million Pothole Prevention Fund will also strengthen the South Island\u2019s roading network. Road maintenance levels are down by 27 percent in the last five years. Our Government is fixing this issue for all New Zealanders, including those in the South Island.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227f32418a5fa14336825579dd787555e3\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Small Business and Manufacturing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u00223b0a1edd72c14d9ab2c68c8b44ddfc56\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b0a1edd72c14d9ab2c68c8b44ddfc56\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Small Business and Manufacturing: Does he stand by his statement that \u201CThere is a problem with late payments and long payment terms by large market players\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u00223e5b6d359cbd4dbe9bd215e343be5c20\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e5b6d359cbd4dbe9bd215e343be5c20\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY (Minister for Small Business and Manufacturing):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. However, I went on to say that the Business Payment Practices Act is not an effective solution, and that\u2019s why we\u2019ve proposed a number of initiatives to try and speed up\u00A0payment times.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220cb2c68c5a8d4bfb8db43286d037650a\u0022\u003EHelen White\u003C/span\u003E: What, if anything, in his voluntary code would stop a large business taking advantage of a small or medium business or a sole trader by withholding or delaying payments?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b44242a34b7a4a2b82db1b8a9d86b4df\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: That is the purpose of the code, which is to make sure that there are good measures in place to make sure the large companies in New Zealand\u2014and the proposed code is going to cover the top 180 businesses\u2014do adhere to good policy around payments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b099e7024d440d69c898d874f735995\u0022\u003EHelen White\u003C/span\u003E: Why should a hard-working sole trader have to wait three months or more for payment to come through from a large company after completing the work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e85923ffb6624cf894111a6977740621\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, they shouldn\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c4b75b5149f4c0786cfc6d86d2d49b5\u0022\u003EHelen White\u003C/span\u003E: Would he be open to considering an alternative to the Business Payment\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022538c6c5ed6754f97b3b22deaa2bb60b0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Hang on\u2014hang on. Wait. Start again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292688d6ece734ff9bda7fe64fa170e6e\u0022\u003EHelen White\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, sir. Would the Minister be open to considering an alternative to the Business Payment Practices Act 2023 that would make late payers liable for a fair interest rate if they haven\u2019t made their payment within 30 days?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bb906dd87234e95a5a8ba0f546dba6f\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: One of the initiatives that I\u2019ve proposed is to make sure that people are aware of their rights under the Fair Trading Act. That is, obviously, administered by the Commerce Commission, and I think that\u2019s the best place where that issue should be dealt with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d17e610780c54df4a359897eef6ccabe\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Oh rubbish\u2014what a load of rubbish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223db5c964b7a94f7da09d838828644732\u0022\u003EHelen White\u003C/span\u003E: Why is he imposing additional costs\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224af0ed6a0dbe4922835f41e1e934066b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Hang on. Just wait for your colleague here to finish. [Interruption] Yeah, they\u2019re all getting a go now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226298d2cb44b74869865650e00a57ecb6\u0022\u003EHelen White\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Why is he imposing additional costs on every small business in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a80b84ea42d4ff8b9f4c0b88f4164ec\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I could ask the member why did the last Government impose $3.2 billion of additional compliance costs on small business\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226f969a94ab5449eadae2ee6bfe75ee0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, but you won\u2019t. But hang on, Mr Bayly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225db11a32d6ae4c09a1d1a054046f9a2a\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014but I wouldn\u2019t do that. What I would say is that we are improving payment times, particularly through the initiative around e-invoicing. One of the biggest productivity gains that we can incur in New Zealand is to help small businesses to move to e-invoicing. The way that we\u2019re proposing to incentivise them to do that is to ensure that Government agencies pay in even quicker time. I\u2019m working towards a payment of five working days. That is the best thing we can do for small businesses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9c4a9941da34312a221ac6abcc95133\u0022\u003EHelen White\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b904cdafbb84612a8b8e3448099b614\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, all done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e57f7bc3592a4532ac169ecfbdc4aada\u0022\u003EHelen White\u003C/span\u003E: All done?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5abfe45352045eba21664b83beb1a6d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e74794e58f194a93a057d7d86e0dc1ed\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Justice\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022 data-id=\u00225f1d1e7d9ac64387b83165194329cc51\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f1d1e7d9ac64387b83165194329cc51\u0022\u003ECAMERON BREWER (National\u2014Upper Harbour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: What progress has the Government made in relation to restoring law and order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u0022b004fc4de41f44ed927f81a9653c58c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b004fc4de41f44ed927f81a9653c58c6\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E The coalition Government is making excellent progress in fulfilling its hundred-day plan commitments in justice that are the first steps in our plan to rebuild confidence in the justice system and to restore law and order. Just this morning, the Legal Services Amendment Bill passed its third reading; it will stop taxpayer funding for section 27 cultural reports that proliferated out of control under the former regime, consuming more than $7 million out of the legal aid budget. When this Government says it will do something, it does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c9b060930334742b7d5ba388516a835\u0022\u003ECameron Brewer\u003C/span\u003E: What other commitments within the 100-day plan to restore law and order is the Government delivering on?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022882b92f4a3dd463f9d0b0d008b54f5c4\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we\u2019ve abolished the previous Government\u2019s prison reduction target that bore no relationship to the level of crime in our community. Tomorrow, we\u2019ll introduce legislation to give police extra powers to deal with gangs. We\u2019re making gang membership an aggravating factor in sentencing, we\u2019re giving police greater powers to search for firearms, and, as you heard from my colleague Minister Chhour yesterday, we\u2019re giving the justice system extra tools to deal with the repeat serious youth offenders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3723e0231094d60b4d6694334849436\u0022\u003ECameron Brewer\u003C/span\u003E: Why is restoring law and order so important?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022175286af1d5e4c1c8a934ececdf1481c\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, indeed, that\u2019s a good question. New Zealanders deserve to feel safe in their homes and in their communities. Gang membership has increased by 51 percent in the previous six years, violent crime up by 33 percent, ram raids went up by 290 percent, and victims of retail crime by 110 percent. These are not statistics that anyone in this House should be proud of, and that is why we need to act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca272c1daff84ce4ad782c33fa08dfc2\u0022\u003EHon Nicole McKee\u003C/span\u003E: What changes is this Government making to the firearms prohibition orders regime to better prevent gang members and violent offenders from accessing firearms?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bff85a7ced1452b8861cd5238f58856\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: A very good question. The Associate Minister of Justice has announced new measures to give police greater powers to search gang members for firearms, and for gang members or associates that have been convicted of significant offences to be issued with firearms prohibition orders. These orders will keep firearms out of their hands and help keep the public safe. I thank the Minister for her excellent work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223add83c0586a40739566331e36a4a02f\u0022\u003EHon Nicole McKee\u003C/span\u003E: What message does this Government\u2019s inclusion of gang membership as an aggravating factor during sentencing send to the gangs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251e4e3afbb464ac2ba77041033175df2\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it\u2019s quite simple. Gangs, for too long, have been allowed to behave as if they are above the law\u2014they are not. The Government is serious about restoring law and order, and if you\u2019re a member or an associate of a gang, expect serious consequences, because the tolerance you once enjoyed has ended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea4d845ad9fe4166b7d1f3b2f01defbc\u0022\u003ECameron Brewer\u003C/span\u003E: What feedback, if any, has the Minister received on recent policy announcements relating to restoring law and order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c504bf5a23114ba9a643a5f99c0691c1\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I do note one commentator, who said, in response to the Government plans to address harm caused by gangs, \u201CIf police have probable cause and know someone\u2019s a gang member they should be able to go after them with the full force of the law knowing that Parliament, politicians and the community has their back.\u201D That commentator was one Stuart Nash.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226dc184243f214adcb6418cd20ca55f97\u0022\u003ECameron Brewer\u003C/span\u003E: What will the Government do after the 100-day plan commitments are delivered?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254a12389d80f4675866daa9770361b1d\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, throughout the next three years, this Government will be relentlessly focused on restoring law and order. After the hundred-day plan commitments are delivered, we will progress work including the reinstatement of the three-strikes legislation and limiting excessive sentencing discounts. New Zealanders want to see real consequences for crime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251e7134a372b41a68c57c7bee05e3ca3\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Can I ask that when members leave the House, they do so without having conversations all the way out the door.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227b159040dd334a118e25e7afad85b129\u0022\u003EBusiness Payment Practices Act Repeal Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b299c61cf7be4f6d956692c6425861e9\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022 data-id=\u0022a2d30812cc894dc5b75024280fdfe923\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a2d30812cc894dc5b75024280fdfe923\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW BAYLY (Minister for Small Business and Manufacturing):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Business Payment Practices Act Repeal Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re closing in on the final bit of this piece of legislation. The reason why we\u2019re putting through the repeal bill is that, simply, the proposals that were put forward by the previous Government will not work, will not derive any tangible benefit. This was borne out by the Australian example where this similar arrangement was put in place in 2020, and the independent review of it late last year concluded that, basically, it wasn\u2019t working. Only 1 percent of small businesses were even aware of the scheme, and, in many cases, they weren\u2019t making use of the information. The issue of this is that even if we were to put this process in place in New Zealand, the information is only up to date if made up to date every six months, and companies have four months to then work out what the response is. So, at any point in time, the information is 10 months old. The alternative, of course, was that many, and virtually anyone, can go to an independent credit agency, get the same information, and, in fact, a lot more financial information on payment arrangements and history, and pay a mere fee of $35 per application. That is the principal issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve traversed this a lot this morning in the debates. I\u2019ve got to reiterate that this Government is concerned about late payments. There is no issue or argument across the House\u2014it is important that small businesses get access to payments on a timely basis because cash is the lifeblood of small businesses. But, simply, the proposal put forward by the previous Government would not work, did not work in Australia, and so I\u2019ve put forward, on behalf of the coalition Government, a number of initiatives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EFirst of all, I\u2019m working with the Minister of Finance to ensure that Government agencies meet their payment time of 10 working days, and we will be proactively publishing the results on the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESecondly, we are expected to ask Crown entities to also enter a similar arrangement, but it is appropriate that we go through a period of consultation. It\u2019s expected to take a couple of months, but, assuming that all works to plan, those entities will also be captured. That should be Government entities numbering more than a hundred. And it should be worthwhile just bearing in mind that the Government accounts for about a third of the economy and spends about $50 billion to $55 billion a year on procurement of goods and services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe other aspect we\u2019re doing is that we really want to encourage e-invoicing. As I said before in question time, e-invoicing offers one of the greatest productivity gains for small businesses. Xero are quoted every year saying that if small businesses were to adopt one new application, such as e-invoicing, then they estimate a benefit to the economy of $8.5\u00A0billion. It wouldn\u2019t quite pay off the interest rate that we\u2019re having to pay everywhere because of the huge amount of debt we\u2019ve assumed over the last six years, but it would go some way towards growing the economy. So we want to make sure that Crown agencies and organisations are e-invoicing capable, which means they can receive and send such data. If they do so, then they would be required to pay within a target of five working days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s very important to understand what e-invoicing is\u2014some people misinterpret it. That is not working out an invoice for a Government agency and then putting it on an e-mail and sending it to someone; e-invoicing is the direct transfer of data between both entities. It does not involve any invoicing function at all; that is already automatically calculated as part of the e-invoicing arrangement. To further incentivise small businesses, that is why we\u2019re proposing a target of five working days, because that means they get paid even more rapidly from Government agencies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe third element is that I\u2019m working with Kirk Hope from BusinessNZ. We\u2019re going to work on an industry-led payment code to make sure that large players, large companies in New Zealand, do have good rules around paying small businesses in a timely basis, and there are, obviously, rules and conditions that should go around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003EThe last thing is just making people aware\u2014small-business owners, in particular\u2014of the issues of redress options under the Fair Trading Act 1986.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022859e13f9-33bb-41bb-b2f0-d848eaf25407\u0022\u003ESo those are some of the specific things that we will be doing. We can do all of those, virtually without any legislation\u2014I\u2019m not sure we\u2019re going to need any legislation, in fact. But we will be putting those in place as soon as we can because it is very important that our small businesses do have access to the cash when they render goods and services. That is the intent of this bill, because what we don\u2019t want people doing is spending a lot of money on a useless system that will not derive any substantive, discernible benefit for small businesses. That\u2019s why I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u00221993f823862948f4a019c4a2dde320c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221993f823862948f4a019c4a2dde320c3\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I want to draw this House\u2019s attention to a couple of articles that have been published in the last 24\u00A0hours. They\u2019re about the UK and they address this very issue. So one is in The Times, and I\u2019ve got one here that I\u2019m going to quote from. They\u2019re, essentially, based on the same issue. The Xero company that the Minister referred to as in support of e-invoices\u2014and he sees this as very much the solution\u2014is the very group that did the research into the problem in the UK of late payment of unimproved debt. It said that in the UK, small businesses face a $1.6 billion deficit. That\u2019s how much it\u2019s costing them\u2014it\u2019s costing them $1.6 billion. That\u2019s because big companies aren\u2019t paying them, and then it means that those small companies are in the credit system and they\u2019re paying higher interest rates. So it\u2019s a very cumulative effect and it\u2019s hurting small businesses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EWhat Xero said about that\u2014and it was a man called, by the looks of things, Alex von Schirmeister, who\u2019s Xero\u2019s UK managing director: \u201CHis call to action is clear\u2014it\u2019s time to hold larger corporations accountable for their payment practices. By ensuring that small[er] suppliers are paid on time, the economic ecosystem can foster a healthier, more sustainable environment for growth. [His] stance is a rallying cry for change, urging stakeholders to reevaluate their payment ethics in \u2026 face of this crisis.\u201D That\u2019s what he calls it; he calls it a crisis. He talks about it being a systemic issue where the very fabric of economic reliability and trust is undermined. And so it is hurting our small businesses, and those big businesses are absolutely doing something reprehensible when they withhold payment in this way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ENow, the Minister tells me that the answers to this are some things that aren\u2019t part of this bill; they\u2019re apparently promised to come. One is the encouragement of e-invoices. I have suggested to the Minister that there is no problem with support for encouraging e-invoices, but it sits alongside this bill; it doesn\u2019t sit as a replacement to it. E-invoices are all very well, but, obviously, the person from Xero, who is involved in e-invoicing, knows that and still thinks there is a problem. So we need more than that tool in the tool box. Again, we are burning the things that have been done that are steps to support small businesses, before replacing them with anything comprehensive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ENow, another thing that has been suggested and was suggested in the questions in the House today is: what\u2019s wrong with something that adds to this situation, gives it teeth? Why aren\u2019t we looking at accounting for the profits that are made by big businesses when they withhold payments like this for, often, months on end? Why aren\u2019t they paying the cost? Why are we shoving that on to our small businesses? That\u2019s a shame. That is a shame that we\u2019re doing that. These are the small businesses in New Zealand that make up 97 percent of our workforce\u201497 percent of our businesses are small and they\u2019re struggling. Our productivity is a problem in New Zealand because those small businesses are undercapitalised. They need this money much more than the big businesses that are withholding, and yet we are taking away that tool.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EThe Minister\u2019s also told me that his alternative to this is a voluntary code. Well, the secret\u2019s in the name: \u201Ca voluntary code\u201D. It\u2019s going to be a voluntary code where people may or may not hold this part of a bargain. I hope that, in my speech today, I have pointed out that what is going on here is not OK. It\u2019s never OK. It\u2019s not a case of volunteering; this is someone else\u2019s hard work. The small business has invoiced the big business, it has done the work, and to suggest that it\u2019s OK for a big business to profit off that and to shove all the costs, have free credit, treat the small businesses as a bank\u2014that is a reprehensible action. That is very much what Government should be doing: they should be getting involved in this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ENow, this is exactly a difference between the Labour Party and the current Government. The Labour Party actually believes in small business. They don\u2019t just pipe it up, wrap it up, see it all as one thing; it is an actual belief in small business. I know that the small businesses in this country are often on the bones\u2014they\u2019re working on the bones of the situation; they are not well-heeled, they do not have enough money for that kind of carry on. I know that because they have walked in my door; as a lawyer, I have seen what has happened to them. I know all about those sole traders. It is of concern to me that we are having a law go through where these kinds of real crises, paid by small businesses, are not at the forefront of the priority of our Minister for small business, or his colleagues in the Government, because there is an underlying ideology and there is an ideological difference. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EThe belief seems to be that if big businesses do well, if profits boom, even at the price of these small businesses, that\u2019s good for the economy because it will all trickle down. Well, that has never worked. It\u2019s a beautiful dream. It doesn\u2019t work. We have not seen it trickle down. If we look at our productivity stats, we will see that there is a real problem in this country. If I run a small business, when I don\u2019t get paid for three or four months, it\u2019s a pretty big deal. If I\u2019m a sole trader and I am just working for that one entity, which is true of so many people in this country now, it is absolutely back-breaking when that happens. It means that people lose their houses. It means they can\u2019t feed their kids.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EThis commitment that I have to a dignified work situation isn\u2019t a game. I believe that people in this country should be able to run small businesses and they should be able to make some money in this country, and big business should not be allowed off the hook when, in fact, the work has been done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EThe committee heard my friend Reuben Davidson read from a constituent today, and it\u2019s a very good letter from a constituent. It is a letter that talks about the real harm done when someone just refuses to pay. Now, small businesses do that to each other\u2014I\u00A0appreciate that people do that to each other. But why wouldn\u2019t we have the standard set when we are dealing with our biggest businesses? We are talking the top 3 percent of businesses. We are talking about businesses where they are contracting for services for over $10 million a year. They are businesses worth $33 million per annum. Those are our big businesses. Why wouldn\u2019t we set the standard for those people? Why wouldn\u2019t we expect them to report that information\u2014to collect it, to be mindful of it, and to report it? Why wouldn\u2019t we do that? Is that such a burden?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EWe hear about red tape. We\u2019ve heard about it today. This is the cover for this stuff: \u201CIt\u2019s going to cause red tape.\u201D This doesn\u2019t cause red tape for small businesses; what actually ignoring the situation is is actually ignoring the harm and the red tape caused for small businesses as they seek credit somewhere else, as they try and deal with a situation. I think the woman in the story from Reuben Davidson today had written to the default payer 16 times and had received excuses and hadn\u2019t been paid. That\u2019s red tape. That is our concern.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EWe need standards in this country and we need to recognise that big businesses are very powerful. They\u2019re more powerful than they\u2019ve been for a long time, for more than one generation. They are more powerful now. Our job in this House is to hold steady and to advocate for the people in this country who are not big businesses. That is the wonderful thing about democracy. We have to hold them to account. Our job as Government is to step in when necessary, not step in lightly. But that isn\u2019t stepping in lightly now, is it? This is something that we should have done. I cannot commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00228e4aab418ae14bc3bff96809110695f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e4aab418ae14bc3bff96809110695f4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I should have said earlier that the question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022 data-id=\u00224627bb91dc7a4a57ba9be207524b3f6b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224627bb91dc7a4a57ba9be207524b3f6b\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I was talking with my nephew earlier today, who\u2019s a partner in a small business called SpicyBoys. They make some fantastic chilli sauce in Christchurch, and I recommend that to the other members of the House; it really gets you going. And I would like the members opposite to get going on something that will save small business, on something that will help small business thrive, something that will help our small to medium sized enterprises to function well and continue to be productive and ensure that they get paid on time, because the repeal of this bill does not improve productivity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EThe Government has no plan to help small business thrive in challenging economic times. We\u2019ve heard that there\u2019s seven or maybe nine points coming, but, as usual, the Government is ignoring those who are doing it hard now\u2014and those who take risks, those who are the innovators, those who are really trying hard\u2014and it is rewarding the slackers, the big businesses who simply want to screw their customers. I can\u2019t comprehend why you would want to do that. Why, as my colleague Helen White mentioned, you would want to favour the corporates, the very, very wealthy, the big businesses who can afford so easily to do right by their customers. Some of them do, but many of them don\u2019t and that makes it extremely hard for small to medium sized enterprises to function.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019ve heard that e-invoicing is going to be one of the solutions. E-invoicing is not an innovation; it\u2019s been around for 20 years. And what\u2019s more, it\u2019s not a solution. Why has it not been implemented? Independent research by Kordia, today, gives us some reasons as to why: more than two-thirds of people using e-invoicing experienced an impact from a cyber incident, with nearly half, 46 percent, finding it took more than a month to resolve the incident, including 9 percent saying it took more than five months. E-invoicing is not a solution. Moreover, 70 percent of business leaders say they would consider paying a ransom to a cyber-criminal. But the Government\u2019s telling us that they could not deal with a business payments programme. I mean, what\u2019s wrong here? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EWe have heard so many good ideas. We\u2019ve heard a willingness to discuss, to ensure that we can have something better, and all we\u2019ve heard is a tribal retrenchment into an urgent debate over something that is not that consequential but is going to make such a big difference to small business. And this, to me, just seems ridiculous. Why would you want to hold the line on this through urgency, when you could reach across the aisle and start to talk, put it into select committee, let us hear from those small businesses, document at least who you\u2019ve spoken to, and let us engage on this rather than simply being tribal about it? There\u2019s so much more you could do, and yet you seem unwilling. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EIsn\u2019t the Government tired of simply rejecting things? Isn\u2019t it time to invest in some solutions? Don\u2019t you get tired of saying no? Don\u2019t you get tired of breaking stuff? It is so hard to make things. It\u2019s so hard, but much more valuable and much more rewarding to create, to bring joy to people, to give security to small businesses and small to medium sized enterprises. You could do this if are willing, if you had the political will.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d87e45de9c44b1da794b80539399114\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Willis, when you say \u201Cyou\u201D, you\u2019re addressing the Chair. You probably mean \u201Cmembers across the other side\u201D or terms to that effect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3e55910c70d4a6888ba99c82fd443ba\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Indeed I do, Mr Speaker, and thank you for that reminder. I\u2019m still getting used to the process in the House and, every so often, I get carried away. However, we do have an opportunity, and I do hope that this is not the end, that there is something better that comes out of the process. But given the quality of the argument that I\u2019ve heard from the Government, I think, as an optimist, I will yet again be disappointed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EI do think that we have heard a lot in a short time, but we haven\u2019t heard a lot of common sense from the opposite side and that is really disappointing. I simply would like the Government to consider what the Government and the party opposite has heard from this side of the House: the willingness to engage, the desire to find a solution for our small to medium sized enterprises, for those people who are doing it hard, those people who are the backbone of business in New Zealand, those people we care about, but clearly you don\u2019t. But we would like you to care\u2014we would like you to care. We would like you to care about business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a5f0fe84-01e8-4eb3-a590-0025017c4243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e89e76fdd93c4ee5a25519255b310b5b\u0022\u003EHon Marama Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: We would like \u201Cthem\u201D to care.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273e465f822114322b3eb72e2d56cd9ec\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: We would like the members opposite to care. And thank you for the reminder from my colleagues over there; we\u2019re getting used to it. And if they do care, we can work together through a select committee process. We can work together, and we can hear from small business who would love to contribute to something better than this dog\u2019s breakfast of a repeal. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022 data-id=\u002240e553ef800f43efaa98578c84f77d2c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240e553ef800f43efaa98578c84f77d2c\u0022\u003ELAURA TRASK (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I\u2019m absolutely honoured to stand here in support of this, and, actually, as a small-business owner, I think we might have a bit of consultation, actually, on this side of the House. Actually, represented across\u2014there are a quite a few members that have owned a small business or worked as a small business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003ENow, the reason that this is under urgency\u2014there are a couple of reasons, but the main one is that 3,000-plus businesses would have to upgrade their technology, and then the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment would have to spend an enormous amount of money to get the system up and ready to go. So I understand that need for urgency, and we need to move quickly on this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003EThere are better ways that we can encourage big business to pay than this. I 100 percent acknowledge, as a small-business owner, it\u2019s really hard when you\u2019re not getting paid by the bigger clients, and you need that incoming cash flow, but the previous Government\u2019s bill would not have actually achieved that. We only have to look to Australia to see the results of their inquiry after the 2020 bill that went in there to see that it\u2019s actually not the right way about this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003EThere are already, actually, protections under the Fair Trading Act, the Construction Contracts Act, and the Contract and Commercial Law Act to protect small businesses. So\u00A0there actually are some provisions in place already, and I do believe that this Government has some good solutions going forward so that we can actually get some real progress for small businesses. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba8f405cc9704b0d9eea9a7d6dd051da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba8f405cc9704b0d9eea9a7d6dd051da\u0022\u003ETANYA UNKOVICH (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I stand on behalf of New Zealand First to commend this bill to the House. We are a party of common sense, and we see that supporting this bill is common sense. As the financial year comes to a close, businesses need some certainty, and these businesses who are now feeling a little bit concerned about the additional compliance costs will now have certainty that that will not happen. Also, we will be saving money with the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment, and that is just a fact of what this Government has to do. We have to look at how we can save money. There is no easy way to say that. So that is why I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022 data-id=\u00220793990f28dc401eb693333cd0446780\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220793990f28dc401eb693333cd0446780\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise for the third reading of this bill. Like I said in the other readings, this Government continues to prioritise corporations, who actually have a different tax rate to many others. These big corporations have a different tax rate; again, benefiting off the backs of small-business owners. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EIgnoring small-business owners is at this Government\u2019s peril. They make up a quarter of the country\u2019s GDP. We\u2019ve got 21,000 M\u0101ori business owners out there. And I heard the Minister say that he had a dinner with them\u2014I doubt very much that he actually talked to them about this specific bill\u2014and say that he\u2019s got another dinner with them this weekend. By then, it will be too late; it would have passed in the next hour. So, again, the consultation with M\u0101ori businesses around this particular issue and the impact that it has on them to be able to pay their staff, to be able to keep the business going\u2014it is going to have huge impact on those small businesses and on the wh\u0101nau that work in those businesses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve all been small-business owners ourselves\u2014grew up on a dairy farm. We\u2019ve also been into horticulture, agriculture, and also consultancy. If I don\u2019t have the ability to be able to pay my bills on time, that could mean huge impacts on the particular company that I have. I understand this intimately. So this bill, once again, diminishes the mana of small-business owners, who play a huge part in this country\u2019s GDP.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EWh\u0101nau who own businesses, and wh\u0101nau who employ people in those businesses have now got to tell them that there is no security that the people they\u2019re providing services and goods to are going to be paying on time. There\u2019s no security for that. This is the impact. And this is not about having e-invoices, because e-invoices have been around for a long time. A lot of people already have e-invoices. I was doing e-invoices before I came to Parliament. This is not about e-invoices; this is about tying up the ability for small businesses and taking the power away from them to ensure that they can pay their employees and the bills on time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EI can\u2019t see how this House and this Government can support this type of bill, because it makes absolutely no sense to me. And then to insult small-business owners to say that they cannot navigate their way through the current system I think is an insult to those small-business owners. You wouldn\u2019t have a small business if you couldn\u2019t run a small business, if you didn\u2019t know how to navigate those particular processes to ensure that you had your bills paid on time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s just take the supermarkets, for example, and the duopoly. Those farmers\u2014and I know; I\u2019ve been a provider of those. I come from a farm. If we cannot get our bills paid on time when we provide\u2014whether it\u2019s avocados, whether it\u2019s sweet corn, whether it\u2019s watermelons, whether it\u2019s courgettes, whether it\u2019s beans, whether it\u2019s maize, any of those things. If I can\u2019t ensure that the goods and services I provide to those big companies, those companies that have a hold on the duopoly here in Aotearoa, especially the supermarkets who made over $400 million in one year, there\u2019s an issue there\u2014there\u2019s an issue there. They get a four-month reprieve from paying that particular bill. For many small-business owners, that is unaffordable. We cannot afford that and it would mean many of those small businesses will fold\u2014they will fold.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EYou imagine if the dairy farmers\u2014I grew up on a dairy farm, so I know this intimately\u2014weren\u2019t paid over a four-month period by Fonterra. That would mean huge impacts. It would have huge impacts on their particular farm and especially small dairy platforms like we have on the coast. These are the issues that our people are facing. These are the issues that I put to the Minister during the committee of the whole House stage to answer: who are the M\u0101ori organisations, the small-business owners, you have consulted?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003EAnd there\u2019s been no alignment to ensure that the Te Tiriti o Waitangi principles have been upheld here\u2014because te Iwi M\u0101ori haven\u2019t been consulted on this particular issue\u2014to ensure that if we\u2019re going to enter into contributing to a quarter of this country\u2019s GDP, what is the security for starting that up. What we\u2019re going to do is put other small-business owners or even those who have the initiative, the innovation, the creativity to create those\u2014I look at them all online, our people selling k\u0101kahu, our people selling art, our people selling taonga and things like that. It\u2019s going to have huge issues, and we will not be supporting this bill to the House. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u00221f7404766aa34fa4b3c90399bac6b7f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f7404766aa34fa4b3c90399bac6b7f7\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I have to say this is just absolutely classic from a National - ACT - New Zealand First right-wing Government. This is a classic playbook. They go out and position themselves as the champions of small business, but when they get into power, we see whose interests they really represent. What is happening under urgency right now is that the Government is repealing a bit of legislation that was correcting the power imbalance between large corporates and small business. It wasn\u2019t even really penalising those large corporates; it was just asking them to be transparent and allowing them to be accountable for late payments, which is seriously affecting many small-business owners. Of course, in the case of those small businesses, late payments have a much more consequential impact on their functioning, because they\u2019re running on the smell of an oily rag, usually, right? They are working as hard as they can to deliver goods and services to the people of New\u00A0Zealand. The fact that this is being repealed under urgency shows that the Government is more interested in protecting the power of big corporates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ENow, I understand there\u2019s a huge conflation on that side of the House between what is genuine economic productivity, what genuinely is good for people and planet, and what makes a lot of money for a small group of people. Those two things are different. Generating genuinely productive goods and services, circulating money through the economy\u2014like, you know, you can see that is different than extracting profit and becoming rich. So, like, those are two different things, actually generating the value and then skimming off the surplus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s why, like, in the 20th century, there was always a real big focus on maintaining a check on the growth of corporate power, the growth of monopolies, duopolies, and oligopolies, because those are actually not good for the economy. It\u2019s not good for the people of our country. What it is good for is the small group of people who are invested in those big corporates or the people who are on the really exorbitant salaries of those large corporates. So when organisations get really, really large and profitable, they have more power than other people in the economy and they tend to grow more and more and more, and that is actually not good for the economy. If you actually study the economics, people on the other side of the House, and not just, like, Econ 101 in the 1990s or, you know, as part of their commerce degree or their MBA, they might understand what actually makes an economy work, and it\u2019s not letting huge amounts of money get hoarded by small groups of people or organisations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo that is the interest represented by this Government, and, under urgency, they\u2019re getting rid of a perfectly reasonable tool that actually would\u2019ve helped. I have to say, this is really important, because in the Cabinet paper they say, \u201COh, small businesses don\u2019t really need this because they can obtain information on which companies have payments in arrears through a credit agency.\u201D Oh, a private, for-profit credit agency such as Centrix, which charges $35 to provide this information\u2014$35. Well, it so happens that one of my colleagues has been\u2014in fact, several of them have been small-business owners, and they\u2019re able to let us know that if you go get a Centrix report, it doesn\u2019t actually cost $35; it costs $49 plus GST per company. So the Government and the people providing the advice are out of touch, and while they say they\u2019re reducing cost and red tape, what they\u2019re really doing is shifting the burden of it on to small businesses who don\u2019t have the power to go chase up their late payments from the big corporates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo, very, very transparent, through their actions, who National, ACT, New Zealand First represent: it is the 1 percent, who keep getting richer through making the economy fundamentally imbalanced and not functioning. Like, the purpose of an economy is simply to facilitate people to trade goods and services and get what they need to have a good life and live a good life. What is happening right now is the extremely rich people and large corporates are extracting profit out of the economy while ordinary people, hard-working people, are seeing their cost of living rise, and, at the same time, we\u2019re seeing the planet face an existential crisis. This bill will not be supported by the Green Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022 data-id=\u00228baa79fa8ae6437b83180231f7412e7f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022094b0ff4-e404-451b-b4a9-ad12bd4dee56\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228baa79fa8ae6437b83180231f7412e7f\u0022\u003ESTUART SMITH (National\u2014Kaik\u014Dura):\u003C/span\u003E Well, can I bring us back to reality. We heard from the excellent Minister\u2014clearly the others weren\u2019t listening\u2014that he is going to address all of these issues through regulation. I thought it was going to be in the \u201CBayly\u00A0Bill\u201D, but it\u2019s not; it\u2019s going to be via regulation. And what\u2019s more, it\u2019ll be a much more efficient and cost-effective way. He is actually doing this to save businesses who had ahead of them, if this Act wasn\u2019t repealed, quite a significant cost to upgrade their own systems to meet the requirements of that Act, and also $2 million to $3 million at least of cost to the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment to develop and put in place a computer system to actually deal with it. So we\u2019re about making things easier for business\u2014small business, in particular. This repeal bill is the start of that and I commend it, with great pride, to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u0022f2b205d6b53f4907bdf773e252b9d152\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f2b205d6b53f4907bdf773e252b9d152\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E One of the lasting images of this debate for me is the image of Minister Andrew Bayly sitting down to dinner with a bunch of small-business owners a couple of weeks ago. I would love to have been a fly on the wall and heard the dinner-table conversation, which I think would have gone something like this: \u201CHere, have some more dessert, because I\u2019m just about to completely shaft you by repealing the law that gives you a break and prevents and discourages big business from late paying and having interest-free loans at your expense.\u201D I\u2019d really love to have heard that, and I hope that Andrew Bayly paid for that dinner, because he\u2019s really making small businesses pay with this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe Minister claimed in his third reading speech\u2014and, actually, throughout the bill\u2019s progress through the House\u2014that we all agree: we all agree on the problem, we all agree that something should be done about it; it\u2019s just that we have a different way of going about it. But he\u2019s asking for a very big leap of faith. He\u2019s repealing a mechanism that was put in place that requires transparency and public disclosure from large firms in order to make it clear and transparent to the public and to small businesses their record on payment times. He\u2019s true in that I think we all agree, at least in principle, on the problem definition, but the trouble is that this Minister and this Government are pretending to be concerned about this. They are gaslighting the New Zealand public and the small-business sector: half a million small and medium sized enterprises around this country, who employ vast numbers of New Zealanders and generate a very large share of this country\u2019s wealth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe Minister has itemised for us what he is intending to do about this problem in lieu of having this legislation on the books. He\u2019s going to be having Cabinet require that Government agencies must pay their bills within 10 working days\u2014OK. He\u2019s going to be consulting with Crown entities about them doing the same thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EHe\u2019s going to encourage e-invoicing, something that\u2014I don\u2019t know\u2014a dozen times in this debate, members of this House have pointed out is already happening. E-invoicing is not a new thing, it\u2019s not an innovation, and it actually doesn\u2019t address the problem that the legislation that\u2019s being repealed today was designed to fix. It\u2019s a red herring. It\u2019s a distraction. It\u2019s irrelevant to this debate, which is about: how do we fix the problem of large companies taking advantage, abusing their market position, not paying on time, and getting free money at the expense of small businesses? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe Minister has offered up a voluntary code of conduct. Why would he think that large companies with a significant financial benefit from not paying their bills on time would voluntarily change their practice when there\u2019s no transparency? There\u2019s no public disclosure. Well, why would they change? Because it feels good? Because the Government is asking them to, through having a voluntary code of conduct? It\u2019s completely implausible. It lacks credibility. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThen, the fifth thing that the Minister offered up was making small-business owners aware of the redress that they have under the Fair Trading Act and other legislation. Well, the case has been made very persuasively through this debate that that is not a real solution\u2014that is, the remedies are not clear, they\u2019re not accessible, it takes time, and it takes money. It\u2019s simply not a realistic option for small businesses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003ESo this agenda\u2014so-called agenda\u2014has been cobbled together by the Minister as a kind of fig leaf for what he is doing here, which is repealing a mechanism that was put in place. It may not be perfect, but at least it offered a genuine prospect of changing the behaviour of large companies, who are the culprits here. We know that they are rorting the system and ripping off small businesses by not paying on time. The Minister is repealing that, he\u2019s getting rid of it, and he\u2019s not putting anything credible in its place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve had to listen to hours of infantile rhetoric from the Government benches about red tape as if all regulation was somehow bad, when the law that is being repealed here would have imposed an obligation for public disclosure on New Zealand\u2019s largest companies, and, no doubt, there would have been some cost associated with that. But it offered the benefit for small businesses that they would be able to know who of their suppliers had a decent record of paying their bills on time. So, as Julie Anne Genter rightly pointed out, the Government is simply shifting the burden and shifting the cost from big business to small business. This is the party that styles itself as the party of small business and as the great champions of free enterprise. National\u2019s lack of interest in actually doing anything that would create a more competitive market gives the lie to their claim to be the party of small business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EOne of the things that actually distinguishes or characterises the New Zealand economy is its tendency towards the concentration of market power. We\u2019re a small economy, and, in almost every industry in every sector, there is a tendency for the concentration of market power in two, three, or four different companies, and you see it everywhere you look. One of the achievements of the last Labour Government was its giving teeth to the Commerce Commission to allow it to do market studies where it could, basically, require companies to open their books. It gave to the Commerce Commission the legal power to do in-depth studies to get the facts, and then to set out what a pro-competition reform agenda would look like. We\u2019ve seen that in the building supplies industry, we\u2019ve seen it in the fuel industry, and we\u2019ve seen it in relation to the supermarket duopoly, and those reports, indeed, laid out a pro-competition reform agenda that our Government went some way towards implementing. But what we\u2019ve seen today from the Government, with the repeal of this legislation, doesn\u2019t give me any optimism that the Government has the political will to actually make changes and make reforms to make our economy more competitive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThere are two reasons why you would want to have the kind of legislation that\u2019s being repealed today. One of them is just basic fairness. Half a million New Zealand small businesses experience insecurity and precariousness because they are completely dependent on their customers paying their bills on time to ensure that they have decent cash flow. We know how hard small businesses work; the risks they take, often investing the family the home, to get businesses started; and the long days and long nights trying to get businesses off the ground. They work incredibly hard, and they deserve a Government that will go in to bat for them. It\u2019s a basic question of fairness. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe second reason is what\u2019s good for the whole economy and what\u2019s good for this country. We need good competition policy. We need competitive markets that make our firms more successful, tougher, more innovative, and more fleet of foot, but we also need competitive markets that allow small firms to grow into medium-sized firms and into large firms. The larger firms generally have higher levels of productivity. They\u2019re able to invest more in technology and they\u2019re able to specialise, and if we don\u2019t make it easier for that upward mobility of small firms, then we are dragging down the New Zealand economy and making it less productive, and making us less wealthy as a country. This seems to have completely escaped this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThis issue, I would have thought, was an opportunity for the current Government to demonstrate its commitment to small business and to competitive markets and productivity. Instead, they have sided with big firms with vested interests against the interests of hard-working small-business owners. At the very least, they would have had the courage to send this bill to select committee and invite small-business owners to come along and have a say and express their view on this issue. But, instead, we get a mixture of reckons and political ideology. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022 data-id=\u0022af1256fc847d4e7891983ad00d9798c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a00bf4f5-c63a-49a0-b0e1-d3b37311377b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af1256fc847d4e7891983ad00d9798c0\u0022\u003ECATHERINE WEDD (National\u2014Tukituki):\u003C/span\u003E Well, I\u2019d just like to support the third reading of this bill, and I\u2019d like to just pick up on a word that a member on the other side of the House used\u2014optimism\u2014because optimism is what we are going to be pumping back into our economy and into small business, because we believe in less regulation, less red tape, and less compliance. I think, in this debate today, we\u2019ve all noted that we all want businesses to pay on time, but we don\u2019t achieve it through more regulation and more red tape. There\u2019s no point creating rules for the sake of creating rules. It\u2019s about making it easier for business to do business so we can create more jobs and opportunity and get this economy back on track. So I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022e5a91b23f4f540b29a11695882151e71\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e5a91b23f4f540b29a11695882151e71\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: This is a split call. Five minutes\u2014Reuben Davidson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022 data-id=\u00227e684f3ba17842f991eb3d72f8e6798c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e684f3ba17842f991eb3d72f8e6798c\u0022\u003EREUBEN DAVIDSON (Labour\u2014Christchurch East):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I\u2019d\u00A0like to start with a couple of statements. The first is that this Act addresses a real problem, and the second is a little bit longer. When large organisations take a long time to pay their bills, small businesses with limited working capital are the ones who suffer. Sometimes it is because large players unfairly use their market power. And I\u2019m expecting a breeze to drift across the House from all the nodding heads from the other side, because those words come from the Minister\u2019s own document and paper with the rationale and the reasons for what this bill, now being repealed, addresses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ENow, I think it\u2019s also good for us to get a little bit of context here, because we had two debates about this earlier today, and we\u2019ve all gone out and had some lunch and left the House and had some question time, and it would be good to bring the focus back to who this bill serves, and that\u2019s small businesses. Small businesses are about real people. I\u2019m\u00A0going to share, as I did earlier, some notes from a local business in my electorate of Christchurch East, because what we don\u2019t want to do is lose sight of the people who are affected by repeals like this. So the first passage I\u2019m going to share is from Sachiko from Kai Connoisseurs, and she says, \u201CRunning a business is hard. Being an employer is hard. Paying for kai, staff, rent, and the rest is hard; and spending my time asking to be paid, over and over for mahi we\u2019ve already done well that\u2019s hard.\u201D Her Facebook post is a letter to organisations and corporates using small, local business to provide services that support your kaupapa then forget to support them back. The message is really simple: \u201CPlease prioritise paying your bills.\u201D And it\u2019s signed by \u201CA tired, hard working solo M\u0101m\u0101, business owner, employer and hoha human who\u2019s had about enough of asking politely for what we are owed.\u201D And this a polite debate about what we all owe to small business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ENow, I think it\u2019s also worth making a distinction here, because the dynamic in a business relationship is a different power dynamic to the one in a political relationship. In a political relationship, sometimes the smaller parties in the relationship can have a lot of sway over the terms of the negotiation and over the things that are included in the transaction. Sometimes, the smaller parties can have unreasonable bottom lines that the larger party bows to. That doesn\u2019t happen in business. Small business can\u2019t make claims for all sorts of strange, unusual, unexplainable, unreasonable demands and have them included into the business arrangement or a business relationship. That is a power dynamic that I would suggest is exclusive to recent politics.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003ESo what I thought I would also do is close with some language that members on the other side will probably find very familiar. So I\u2019ll speak to you in your language. What I\u2019m saying really clearly is\u2014I think that\u2019s a phrase you\u2019re quite accustomed to\u2014we need to aerate the issues; we need to zoom out. This repeal does what I\u2019m doing to you to small business\u2014it condescends. This is a condescending repeal. I hear the Minister\u2019s priorities\u2014seven of them\u2014to support small business. My challenge is: do eight. Walk and chew gum. It can be done. Small businesses do all they can. The least they deserve is for us to do the same for them. I cannot commend repealing this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022 data-id=\u0022aa8db8dc5828491681f20d0c89efb9b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d4dae97-e385-42a3-9791-5440c8cc9b3c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aa8db8dc5828491681f20d0c89efb9b0\u0022\u003ENANCY LU (National):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019d like to address the member on the Opposition Reuben Davidson that we speak one language in this country, which is for the betterment of New Zealand. So if I can bring everyone in this House back to the intention of this bill, which is to improve payment times, ramping up the use of e-invoicing; incentivising small and medium enterprises to adopt e-invoicing; expanding payment targets to Crown entities\u2014all of these will contribute to business efficiency. So faster payment between and across businesses in New Zealand is the intention that we have for this bill, and with great intention, it comes with great delivery, and the speed of delivery for this National-led Government. So with this, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207181a3d5ee046eeb3488e1ea6048d13\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Now, I understand this is a split call between two Labour members. Ingrid Leary\u2014five minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022 data-id=\u0022d1a56bc83a5148e0843e35837497cec6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d1a56bc83a5148e0843e35837497cec6\u0022\u003EINGRID LEARY (Labour\u2014Taieri):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I\u2019d like to start my contribution by just acknowledging the small businesses that are out there, the 97 percent of businesses in New Zealand operated mainly by families, by small groups of people who are doing the hard yards for our economy\u2014and many of them come from migrant families\u2014I really want to acknowledge them. I also want to acknowledge those in my electorate, people like the hot yoga studio run by the fabulous Donna. People like Abdal\u2019s Gourmet Foods, an amazing small business that is growing and was started by a former Syrian refugee who is really making a difference in our community, both in terms of the business he provides but also just the rich and interesting new palate that he is bringing to the electorate. And many of those small businesses, of course, took the wage subsidy which helped keep them afloat, because, as I\u2019ve maintained through this debate, cash and cash flow is king for small business. I know that as a small-business owner; I know what it was like to have sleepless nights thinking how am I going to pay people when some of my suppliers were late in their payments, and that\u2019s what this is all about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EBut, having listened to the debate, I cannot help but think that the Act, the current system is being repealed as a vanity project by the new Minister. The reason for that is there is no need for the repeal and there has been no use of process and, by the looks of it, not much process going forward. So although the Minister was generous in the committee of the whole House stage with his contributions, my sense is that he is a Minister who\u2019s very hands on, he thinks he knows better than the officials, he thinks he knows better than the public consultation. He\u2019s got some good ideas, it\u2019s great that he realises that e-invoicing is around\u2014something that has been around for 20 years. But there\u2019s been very little process, and unsatisfactory answers to the questions that we put to him in the committee stage about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EThe Minister could have just left the current system intact. He has tried to say that there\u2019s no point in doing that because the Australians don\u2019t like their system. But the very report that he quoted from, he cherry-picked out the things that he wanted to say and left out the most important point, which is that the report recommended that Australia maintain its payment practice system and hinge it more firmly around reputational risk. And it had a number of ways that it said that could be done. That was through making the register more accessible for small-business owners, streamlining the data, and improving the power of the regulator, which I would be surprised if the Minister, knowing how he loves competition law, would have had an issue with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003EInstead, though, what we have is this repeal bill that has a really patronising general policy statement that assumes that small-business owners do not know how to access data, that they do not know how to interpret the data, and that even if they did, \u201COh well, they\u2019re not going to have much choice anyway because they\u2019re only small-business owners. They don\u2019t really have a way to strategise, to choose their own suppliers in the market.\u201D Now, I do not know where that general policy statement came from. We asked questions in the committee stage about the underlying assumptions and the advice from officials. There was no regard to that and certainly it hasn\u2019t come from any select committee process, because I would remind this House that, once again, we are doing this under urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002296f5f6b7-c116-477e-88a9-ea17aa616886\u0022\u003ESo that takes me to my second point: just the lack of process around this; the use of urgency, the lack of a select committee process, and then what appears to be quite a lack of process going forward, if I\u2019m hearing the Minister correctly, because he\u2019s talking about a voluntary code that has suddenly come out of the middle of nowhere, suddenly big business wants to introduce this, even though bad payment practices have been going on for decades. He wants us to believe that this code is going to work for small business. Well, where is the process? I asked these questions in the committee stage. I asked where the consultation would be. I asked what the sanctions would be and how this would be linked to reputational risk, because, as was pointed out by one of the previous speakers, if there\u2019s no link to reputational risk then the system simply won\u2019t work. He did not answer any of those questions. Instead, he insisted on talking about his e-invoicing and the fact that the Fair Trading Act could be used. Now, he also said that it would be difficult for small business to access information under the current system that the Labour Government introduced. Well, he can\u2019t have it both ways; either we know how to use data, or we don\u2019t. This is a terrible repeal bill and I do not commend it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u002211f1ca90f862410d88764fac6504ee57\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002211f1ca90f862410d88764fac6504ee57\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, thank you very much, and I acknowledge my colleague who\u2019s provided me with some time. Like every member of Parliament here, we represent an economy based on half a million small businesses. This is an important piece of legislation and I\u2019ve been asking myself: why are we doing this? Because last year, once again, since 2003, the World Bank has been conducting a survey across 190 economies: which country is the easiest to do business in? New Zealand. Consistent. I have been proud to say that around the world, as I\u2019ve promoted our country to exporters, to importers, to investors. We are the easiest country in the world in which to do business, and that is something we should be proud of. After the Labour Government\u2014last year, this judgment, and once again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ESo all the rhetoric, all the ranting we hear over there about the Labour Government imposing costs and difficulties on small businesses, it\u2019s simply not true. We are the easiest country in the world. The reality is there are greater expectations, in part because of lawyers, because of international trade, because of food safety, because of a whole lot of other expectations from discerning customers around the world. There are more requests.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThis is the easiest country in the world in which to run a business. But over that side of the House, you\u2019ve got some naive people\u2014very, very naive. They, on the one hand, say, \u201COh, the market will determine how things roll through.\u201D Well, listen to market signals. Well, the reality is that an emerging and evolving market ends up with some dominant players. It might be in road contracting, it could be in dairy industry or meat industry, it could be in areas of health, it could be in banking. In fact, you know, four big players. There have been many people who\u2019ve come to the House. If they\u2019d had the chance to come to the select committee and say, \u201CIt\u2019s pretty unfair. We\u2019re a small business and we get beaten up by the big business\u201D\u2014because that\u2019s human nature and that\u2019s normal commercial evolution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EIf you\u2019re a small business, you want to be a big business and you do your best. In fact, there\u2019s a good member over the other side of the House\u2014he\u2019s a new member: David\u00A0MacLeod\u2014who was part of an organisation that actually moved forward in exactly the normal way of commercial evolution. If you\u2019re big, you exert your dominance. Fonterra said, \u201CWe\u2019re going to pay 90 days, not 30 days. We\u2019re going to pay in 90 days.\u201D Outrageous\u2014outrageous. Why did they do it? Because they could. To be fair to him\u2014and I think he is a good member and I know he looks very uncomfortable with the passage of some of the Government\u2019s legislation and changes, so I know he\u2019s a good member. I\u2019m not sure whether he\u2019s on the board\u2014I think he was. Fonterra did a U-turn. They realised that in spite of their ability to pay in 90 days, they said there was backlash, there was outrage, and, in fact, they changed it\u2014and good on them and I acknowledge that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EBut there are other big, dominant players across this economy that won\u2019t do a U-turn, because they don\u2019t have to. Fonterra\u2019s a cooperative and they had many farmer members who had friends who were small-business people and they said, \u201CThis is unfair. You pay the farmers on the 20th of the month, but you don\u2019t pay us until the 20th of the third month.\u201D So we brought in legislation to ensure that small businesses had a fair go, and this coalition Government\u2014ACT, National, and New Zealand First\u2014is removing the protection for half a million small businesses across this country. Not all of them will be affected because they may have a good relationship with a supplier or customer or whatever, but there will be some who will be unfairly affected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EWe are in this Parliament to protect those who can\u2019t stand up for themselves. The\u00A0Minister says, \u201COh, you know, you can go for the fair trade Act. There\u2019s other pieces of legislation.\u201D A small business at a time of global inflation, when the economy\u2019s being squeezed by the Reserve Bank, doesn\u2019t have the spare cash to get the data and to go to\u00A0court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ESo this is a ridiculous piece of legislation being passed through urgency that will undermine the rights of half a million small businesses across our economy. It is outrageous, and how any one of those members over there can stand up and say that they are here for enterprise, when, under a Labour Government, this economy was the best for doing business across the globe\u2014across the globe; across the globe\u2014by the World Bank standings. This will reverse that position.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4a313fab5ed45108db6720985d41893\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4a313fab5ed45108db6720985d41893\u0022\u003EDAVID MacLEOD (National\u2014New Plymouth):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, thank you very much. I thank the member the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor for bringing up a part of my career, as a director of Fonterra. Indeed, he is correct that that organisation did bring in what I consider were some very challenging times for suppliers to that entity. You know, I may enlighten people\u2014without trying to sort of explain my whole CV\u2014I was one of the contractors myself, with an electrical contracting business, that was in that spot. I, as a director of Fonterra, was part of the drive to get the change that we saw to correct that behaviour, which stopped the hurt of so many different entities that were serving that very, very big company which is called Fonterra. My point being that there are many businesses that are hurt by the fact that their working capital is stressed, by the fact that other entities use them as banks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002231e14629-7251-4b68-9f90-22b71db0b1c1\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to say that there are\u2014was it 3,500 entities that were identified as part of this particular Act that\u2019s being repealed, the Business Payment Practices Act? But it\u2019s actually more than those 3,500 entities as well, there are other businesses that actually cause a huge amount of stress on other companies as well. So this wasn\u2019t the silver bullet to solve the whole problem. But the fact is that the problem is agreed upon. Every member of the House\u2014I\u00A0haven\u2019t heard anybody talk cross-purposes of what the issue is; we agree with what the issue is. Dare I say it, we\u2019ve just got a different method of actually delivering a solution for this, on this side of the House. So, with that, I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022371541fc229b43e2924c5232e47e3769\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Business Payment Practices Act Repeal Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000754\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002267c342381bf74f728bd3ded51193356c\u0022\u003ELand Transport Management (Repeal of Regional Fuel Tax) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002240e159c6a8744602922dbfd46b972c9f\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000757\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 27 February.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022a34507899d964d1fadab05f553afab52\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a34507899d964d1fadab05f553afab52\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana, Mr Speaker. Thank you for the call. We will be opposing this bill under urgency. This is a bill that seeks to, essentially, repeal a scheme that is targeted to a part of the country that is in need of transportation as an area of focus. This is a regional fuel tax (RFT) that has a purpose: it has provision for the funding of roads, it has a provision for the funding of buses, it has the provision for the funding of the very things that communities of interest all around Aotearoa New Zealand expect. That should not be the reason as to why Auckland, as our biggest city, should be penalised for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EMany of the vital transport projects that are listed as beneficiaries of this scheme will now be at risk. This is an example of the coalition Government that is seeking to do nothing but force Auckland into a corner. This will result in cuts to critical transport projects that will make a huge difference. What it will mean for that community is that they will have to turn their mind to either not proceed with many of these transport projects or to look at alternative funding mechanisms such as an increase to rates. When Auckland is faced with increases to rates alongside water issues and the like, it is far from ideal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThis is an example of a Government that clearly has no eye towards the future. This is an example of a Government that has no new ideas, and the only aspect of new funding that is coming Auckland\u2019s way is a 22c increase to the fuel excise duty and a 50 buck increase in the form of a drivers tax that will be placed on registrations when folks go to register their licence for their vehicle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EWhat\u2019s really interesting is that this is a bill, a proposal, that had no regulatory impact statement. What we hear from the coalition Government is that anything that\u2019s subject to their 100-day plan is not subject to a regulatory impact statement, and that\u2019s very, very unfortunate indeed. But what there is, in front of this House, is a departmental disclosure statement. For the benefit of those who are tuning in at home, what that is, is it, effectively, is an independent assessment or analysis in the absence of a regulatory impact statement, that focuses on many things. One, it is very important because one of the things that it touches on are the potential costs and potential risks of this proposed change. When we have a look at it, we see that it was prepared towards the end of January 2024. So Minister Simeon Brown knew about all of this stuff at that time, and he\u2019s been sitting on it for a wee while. But it\u2019s also been prepared by the independent Ministry of Transport.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EWhen we have a look at this particular disclosure statement, what it identifies there is that removing the RFT will result in modest savings for households and businesses in Auckland, and that that figure comes out to around $1.85 for each motorist that\u2019s going to use it\u2014$1.85. When this is a Government that is focusing on measures to apparently address cost of living pressures\u2014$1.85. I can tell members opposite, I had a look at what you could get for $1.85 in Auckland\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253cea96161724e34bf683920507ee567\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: You tell us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223dde7dcaaf254aa998e86cf1da0d96a5\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and I\u2019ll tell the House. What they could get is a 227g of Dole crushed pineapple. That is what this tax is about. Actually, well, the repeal of this tax is going to provide cost of living support in the form of a 225g\u2014that\u2019s a small can. And\u00A0people like pineapple, but we are talking about a small amount there. If this is a Government that is serious about addressing cost of living pressures, this is not the way to go for Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ESo this is from the independent departmental disclosure statement that identifies that\u2014it also says that \u201CRemoving the RFT is unlikely to have a substantive impact on households and this change would need to be made alongside other interventions in order to reduce [that pressure].\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac15ce76d3cf45df9facb20cc3e211bb\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s the point?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f753a8512d8482cac9409bba74dcd4f\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: My colleague Shanan Halbert says, \u201CWhat is the point?\u201D Well,\u00A0that is a very good question because we are still waiting for the answer. This is a stupid piece of legislation, which is becoming, actually, in the vein of this coalition Government\u2014they like to do things that are stupid in nature. So we will look through these individual projects as we progress through the committee of the whole House stage and others, but, on this side of the House, we are not prepared to support something that will bring no cost relief to the people of Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u00227368d19657374ce69a9abd091f3db0a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227368d19657374ce69a9abd091f3db0a7\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. The\u00A0Green Party will not be supporting this bill, the Land Transport Management (Repeal of Regional Fuel Tax) Amendment Bill. I think it is worth considering what our options are to raise revenue to pay for infrastructure. While it will be great to have perfect time-of-use pricing for every user, that\u2019s not the situation we\u2019re in now, and fuel tax has been a very low-cost, relatively administratively easy way to raise revenue. And it\u2019s a good proxy because generally the people using the roads are generating the need for the infrastructure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EOne of the things this coalition Government doesn\u2019t seem to understand\u2014and it\u2019s a real shame, because I feel like they\u2019re almost there; they could almost understand this\u2014is that you don\u2019t need to use something directly to benefit from it. Road users are the greatest beneficiaries of projects that move more people with fewer cars, especially in an urban area like Auckland. We know this because back in early 2000s, the National Party in Opposition opposed, with many other doubters, the Northern Busway. They said it would be a white elephant. Now, that Northern Busway was funded from State highway funding. It was the State highway agency\u2014at the time Transit New Zealand, the predecessor to the New Zealand Transport Agency\u2014who saw the opportunity. They said, \u201CWe can acquire a corridor, and we can either use it for one lane of traffic or we can use it for a busway.\u201D And by using it for a busway, they spent a mere $200 million\u2014incredibly effective investment\u2014and now, $200 million, they were able to build the Northern Busway, which now carries as many people as all the lanes of traffic on the Auckland Harbour Bridge.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo let\u2019s compare $200 million to the cost of the next additional Waitemat\u0101 Harbour crossing, which is going to be somewhere between $20 billion and $50 billion. OK, I know numbers aren\u2019t their strong suit, but let\u2019s picture this. So I know 200 sounds bigger than 20, but, in fact, 200 million is a much, much smaller number than 20 billion, because 20 billion is 20 thousand million, OK? So with the Northern Busway, we had an incredibly effective investment that not only benefited all the people of Auckland because it enabled twice as many people now to travel around at peak time without having to build another bridge or a tunnel, and without all the additional costs that are needed when you build a road.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EObviously, the people using the road have to pay for the car and there has to be the land for parking their cars somewhere, and they\u2019ve got to run the car. So there\u2019s all these costs that they\u2019re missing, and that\u2019s why this shouldn\u2019t be a political football. People on the right-wing end of the political spectrum should not be opposed to sensible, economically efficient investments in transport that benefit everyone. Mr Speaker, you don\u2019t need to take the bus to benefit from more people being able to take the bus or the train. And, Mr Speaker, you don\u2019t need\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dffcbdd7accd4112a66428bb8d51b4d2\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t bring the Speaker into this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f85176342b04806b619a0e56ec5146e\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: You personally\u2014I mean, oh, OK. Well, you and anyone else\u2014you in the general sense\u2014don\u2019t need to ride a bike to benefit from infrastructure that means more people make short urban trips by bike instead of a car because the bike takes less room than the car\u2014significantly less room; less parking; and, guess what, bikes don\u2019t cause potholes. So the more people who use bikes for short urban trips, the better off the people who are driving the cars, the better the quality of the roads, the less the congestion, the lower the transport costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo, unfortunately, we have a Government that is mostly innumerate, incapable of accurately forecasting the costs of the projects they campaigned on, extremely, extremely irresponsible in Opposition, and just opposed things for the sake of it, like the regional fuel tax. The money that is needed to build the infrastructure that is needed in Auckland has to come from somewhere. So instead of it being spread in a very efficient way at a very low cost over a large number of people who are driving around Auckland to get that infrastructure, the infrastructure\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022763be435f7d341439904d96f6f3cbd0e\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: How did your bike bridge go?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ec581795eda49f39172c5ac4fd43d5e\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: That was not my project, by the way. The infrastructure will now have to be funded by rates rises or won\u2019t happen at all. And everybody in Auckland loses because those projects won\u2019t be funded. That\u2019s been signalled by the mayor. And, by the way, the coalition Government is happy to fund the Eastern Busway from the regional fuel tax revenue, so they do kind of understand that road users should contribute to public transport.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022 data-id=\u002248ded954bb194688a44636a4bc90caa6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248ded954bb194688a44636a4bc90caa6\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. As we heard in question time from one of the honourable Ministers, the blip of the last six years is over. This regressive tax, which goes on everybody who fuels up their car no matter how they transport themselves around, is going. What the regional fuel tax did not do was improve the efficiencies of the road. There was no accounting for time shifting or trying to make your workday fit around the use of the road, so it wasn\u2019t improving congestion, which is one of the bigger problems that the Auckland City motorists face.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EAs I say, this was a regressive tax and it ended up with an unspent $341 million. As\u00A0the previous speaker, Julie Anne Genter, has mentioned, one of those projects which will be saved is the Eastern Busway, but the $341 million will also go on electric trains and stabling and road corridor improvements. So this money is being ring-fenced for these projects and is not to be spent on frivolous activities that end up costing hundreds of millions of dollars more than can be justified, such as speed bumps. There are better ways of funding roads, and we as a coalition Government are looking at tolling and electronic road-use charging along with city and regional infrastructure deals and time-of-use charging. This money, which will be paid by road users, will be spent on roads and, as I mentioned, those three projects are going to be finished.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EI will also just say that the rest of New Zealand will be able to sleep easy, knowing that a regional fuel tax will not be coming to them thanks to this repeal bill. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022 data-id=\u0022a3afca17ddee4c5c8eb643799a3a1734\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a3afca17ddee4c5c8eb643799a3a1734\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E This legislation should come as absolutely no surprise to anybody because our National Party colleagues and partners campaigned explicitly on it, and we have joined in a coalition agreement with them to deliver this, and that is exactly what we are doing. We are keeping the promises that we collectively have made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003ELook, let\u2019s also be clear: this legislation was always finite. It was set up. It had four years to go. We\u2019re just bringing that date forward a little bit. I think this is a very sensible cost of living approach for the good people of Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve already heard from my colleague Cameron Luxton that the tax is regressive and certainly effects people who have to move around Auckland, particularly those people living in the outskirts of Auckland, who will more likely be those who are less well off. So it\u2019s going to benefit them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s also look at some numbers here: $780 million has been raised to date, $341\u00A0million of that is still left in the kitty at the moment. So even if you didn\u2019t raise a cent from now until the 10 years of this scheme coming to its conclusion, in the last six years $73 million a year has been spent. But in the next four years, you would have to spend at $85 million a year to spend all that money\u2014in other words, $12 million more than the Auckland authorities have managed to spend in the last six years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003ELook, I\u2019m sure that our friends in the Opposition would say that the tax should be kept going, but the reality is: if you look at what\u2019s in here, and the purposes for which the tax was intended, you could just about put anything into it\u2014just about put anything into it\u2014and it makes it, effectively, almost just an extra slush fund, if you like\u2014it\u2019s a bit of a pejorative word, but a \u201Cslush fund\u201D\u2014for the Auckland authorities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EI also note that that $341 million\u2014I can see why the Auckland Council is so enthusiastic about it. We had a question earlier today about the cost of borrowing. Well, the Auckland Council with $341\u00A0million in the bank is earning, say, 6 percent\u2014they\u2019re earning something like $20 million a year in money that they are getting from having that money in the bank. If I might say, the question which was asked about the cost of borrowing, for us as a nation, it is over 2 percent\u2014so more than $2 in every hundred dollars is spent in debt servicing just for our debt that we\u2019ve run up, and we\u2019ve run up particularly under that Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve also noted that Mayor Brown has said that removing the scheme would cost something like $1.2 billion in possible revenue. What he didn\u2019t say is that $600 million of that, roughly speaking, will come from the fuel tax, and he assumed that the other $600\u00A0million would come from the National Land Transport Fund. Of course, that\u2019s not free money; that means that is money which is not available to anyone else anywhere else in the country. Look, while we know that the good people of Auckland need investment, so does the rest of New Zealand. So it is not free money that was going to come from nowhere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve also heard from the Hon Julie Anne Genter just now about all the other wonderful projects that will benefit motorists. But I think one of the issues we\u2019re having here\u2014and I don\u2019t think that motorists are buying into this\u2014is that so much of the fuel tax dollar is now going on to non-roading projects. There is a balance\u2014public transport benefits motorists\u2014but there is also out of balance, and I think that under the last Government, we got out of balance. Too much of the money which was taken from motorists was spent on things which did not benefit the motorists. I think we lost that sense of balance, and I think we need to get that sense of balance back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EJust to finish off, it looks like almost anything could be fitted into the set of things that were under the scheme as it was originally set up. There were 14 different areas of spending which were enunciated here, and the three biggest projects there: one of them, the Eastern Busway, is under way; Penlink, I understand, has been reduced in its scale; and Mill Road was cancelled by that last Government, and it is this Government which is going to bring it back again as part of the roads of national significance. So, in actual fact, while they are decrying the removal of the scheme, they actually took one of the major flagship projects of the scheme and cancelled it, and that is very unfortunate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EI\u2019m just going to finish off by saying that when I was in local government, I was never keen on these sort of blanket fuel taxes, but what I was keen on was congestion pricing which sends a clear message to people what they can avoid by changing behaviour, by changing the time that they travel. I think that that is appropriate. What we also know, on that side of the House and on this side of the House, is that road-user charges are coming and that is going to be the way of the future in terms of charging, rather than petrol taxes. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022 data-id=\u0022cea79d549d8f47e7af7822a87b9eab8b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cea79d549d8f47e7af7822a87b9eab8b\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Ka t\u016B au ki te k\u014Drero ki t\u0113nei take, ka k\u014Drero ka tangi ki t\u0113nei whakaaro nui e te P\u012Bka e te katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E[I stand to address this issue, I speak and convey my sympathies towards this immense matter, Mr Speaker and the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003ESo let\u2019s talk about our mokopuna in this bill; based on the fact that that\u2019s certainly been my previous job to this job, I can speak with confidence but endurance about what this implication will be. So what message does this bill send to our mokopuna? Does it assure our tamariki that we, as the leaders of this country, are doing our best by them? Right now, the answer is a big, fat k\u0101ore\u2014or a no\u2014no, we cannot reassure them. The message that this Government sends to our mokopuna and to our tamariki is that their future in this country does not matter, and that a short-term profit or the short-term pacification of a small demographic will be prioritised over mokopuna. Business as usual, it seems.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003ESo why can I say that the future of our mokopuna is not currently being prioritised? Well, this Government has prioritised their 100-day plan over wh\u0101nau, over mokopuna, over people. This Government has failed to carefully plan and to consider the applications of the promises that they have set to the public. This ultimately fails mokopuna. Whether the other side of the House actually knows that and can comprehend what this actually means, in either language\u2014I\u2019m happy to share, when I\u2019ve got patience for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EThis work that has been done to reduce reliance on fossil fuels and to reduce the pressure of living cost crisis is undone with this very repeal. This Government has ridiculed the projects aimed to improve cycle lanes\u2014why do I know? Because I hear them scoffing every few minutes\u2014railway infrastructure, and further improvements to public transport. These projects moved towards transitioning T\u0101maki\u2014that\u2019s Auckland\u2014from an unsustainable reliance on fossil fuels and instead towards sustainable transport options, which in turn decongest roads, support the longevity of our already existing transport infrastructure, and relieve the pressure we as consumers place on our environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EAll right, let me see where I\u2019m going: not only this, we need to also ensure that our people can get from one destination to another safely. Safety upgrades, including the installation of speed bumps, red-light cameras, and lower speed limits in T\u0101maki\u2014that\u2019s Auckland\u2014all funded by the regional fuel tax, were done in an effort, in fact, surely, done as response to the 50 lives that Auckland roads take each year. That\u2019s 50 lives; that\u2019s 50\u00A0wh\u0101nau who don\u2019t have their loved ones returning home. This Government has labelled these safety projects as wasteful spending. Is it wasteful to invest into the oranga of our people? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003ESpeaking to the oranga of our people, how can the Government claim that this bill will aid our people during living cost crisis when the funding for infrastructure that is currently sourced from the regional fuel tax will only be sourced elsewhere? It is now the responsibility of ratepayers and all of those who pay road-user charges to cover the revenue lost to this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003ETo conclude, as mentioned by the Minister Simeon Brown himself during the first\u00A0reading of this bill, 57.8 percent of voters in Auckland voted for the current coalition Government, later in this reading stating, \u201CI don\u2019t think that was what Aucklanders thought they were signing up for when the Auckland regional fuel tax was put in\u00A0place.\u201D In response to this, I say: I don\u2019t think that was what the 57.8 percent of voters in Auckland were signing up for when the Government\u2019s current coalition was put in\u00A0place. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022 data-id=\u0022a12c2f9cbb064b41891db5e282ec5a5f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a12c2f9cbb064b41891db5e282ec5a5f\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E At the last election, we campaigned on reducing the cost of living for Aucklanders, and one of the ways to do it was to remove this regional fuel tax. Guess what! They listened to us, they voted for us, and a number of the people on the other side of the House lost their seats. There\u2019s your message. I\u00A0commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022db471d0c8ad249708c62b8e27b0eb6ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db471d0c8ad249708c62b8e27b0eb6ed\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E As this bill goes through its first reading, and before we\u2019ve heard what might have been submissions from people who live in Auckland, we need to consider why we had the regional fuel tax in the first place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EAs someone on the other side pointed out, it could apply to any council in New Zealand who applied for the capacity to charge a regional fuel tax. So what the regional fuel tax did was set up a mechanism whereby Auckland, in this instance, and other councils could apply to charge a regional fuel tax, and that money was to be used for projects in that\u00A0region.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, as it turned out, Auckland was the only regional authority that was able to take advantage of this mechanism, but other city councils were interested in it too. And why were they interested? Because the cost of congestion, the cost of getting us around our cities and towns, the cost of our transport network is increasing in many ways.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, talk to any Aucklander and they\u2019ll be able to tell you and other people in this House what the traffic in Auckland is like. It\u2019s particularly appalling at the moment in the midst of March madness, but the congestion on the roads is intense. We have many, many people living and working in Auckland and they end up spending hours in traffic. The reason why that happens is because there aren\u2019t other alternatives, it\u2019s because we do not have the critical roads we need, and the regional fuel tax was put in place in order to enable Auckland Transport to get under way with getting some of those critical projects\u00A0built.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo what is the problem with removing it? Well, the problem with removing it is not just that it removes the funding that Auckland Transport could have used but it removes the capacity to borrow more money, because it changes the council\u2019s debt ceilings. Now, I\u2019ve heard members on the other side complain that there\u2019s some money left in the kitty at the moment. That\u2019s left there precisely because these big projects take time to deliver and payments get delivered as various stages in a contract are reached. It\u2019s quite straightforward. It\u2019s not that no one wanted to spend the money. The money was allocated but it was sitting there, waiting to be spent on the projects as set out in time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EYet we have this critical need for transport funding in Auckland. We have the Mayor of Auckland saying that he wanted the regional fuel tax to continue, and yet on the other side they are removing the capacity for Auckland to have a regional fuel tax and justifying it on the grounds of the cost of living. But it\u2019s going to save\u2014at the most, it will save a household $2.70 a week. Well, that\u2019s a big contribution to the cost of living! Where\u2019s the substantial change that the other side was promising? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENot only that, but a few years down the track, they\u2019re going to whack the fuel tax back up again by another 22c a litre, and, on top of this, something that just simply cannot be justified by reference to the cost of living, the other side is increasing vehicle registration fees, so another $50 a year\u2014whack!\u2014out of people\u2019s back pockets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo whatever the other side thinks might be saved by repealing the regional fuel tax, whatever they think it might save households, well, they\u2019re giving it with one hand but taking it away with the other, and taking away not just the short-term monetary savings but the savings that would have been made by having better transport infrastructure in our biggest city.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e5535719967473bbf8ff292ef48678d\u0022\u003EHon Simeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Speed bumps.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226148b3ac3e2845e1834f840a2abf3443\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: And I hear the other side complaining about cycleways. Now, one of the projects that has been lost because this side has taken away the Auckland regional fuel tax is the Great North Road cycleway. See, what the other side fails to do is to recognise that every cyclist on the road is one less car on the road. That is a person who has chosen transport which imposes less costs on other people. So taking this decision in isolation, taking away the Auckland regional fuel tax, pretending it\u2019s a cost of living measure, it is bereft of sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u002247b9ab3a1df34c9295658c6ca9b9e7a1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247b9ab3a1df34c9295658c6ca9b9e7a1\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It gives me great pride to stand in support of the Land Transport Management (Repeal of Regional Fuel Tax) Amendment Bill in the name of the Minister of Transport, Simeon Brown. This bill legislates that the remaining unspent revenue from the Auckland regional fuel tax is ring-fenced to fund the Eastern Busway, electric trains, stabilising for the City Rail Link, and road-corridor improvements. Introducing legislation to remove this regional fuel tax was part of our 100-day action plan, and, unlike Governments previous, this is actually a Government of delivery. We\u2019re delivering on what we campaigned on, and I\u2019m pleased to commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u002260042ccb4aa7433390db1046747a3e3d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002260042ccb4aa7433390db1046747a3e3d\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Government speaker after Government speaker has stood up from Wellington and from the regions and told Aucklanders on this side of the House that we should be grateful for cuts to our public transport and our roading budget; that Aucklanders should be so grateful that Wellington is telling them that they are having cuts to the long-term kind of investment that we need to be the city of the future that we can be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EBecause I love Auckland and I hear the Hamiltonian member, Tom Rutherford, who has resumed his seat asking me whether Auckland is the city of the future. He was the closest they could get to standing a speaker near to Auckland. So I have listened to his contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275ddeb218e03414c9e239c5cac0dd3be\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4caa69846ac4c698ffb56dcaa1fda68\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Tom Rutherford.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f66153229f94a4ba1e8b14bcb54e279\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a misrepresentation. I\u2019m not from Hamilton.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bda9301180e4fa9bbcaa0d53e6d5a2b\u0022\u003EHon Simeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274cd9bd3a0a94cdfbb59f1c1384c7e02\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, the Hon Simeon Brown.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2459720cc42447dae861be8211c8cc9\u0022\u003EHon Simeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Well, speaking to the point of order, I actually gave the first speech on this bill and I am an Aucklander.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d43a46524d144ea8e089e3801de3ec1\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf2caa8ba3bc4f0c92da156166e2581a\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon James Shaw.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c19818f6f6c44dbdadc4ad42cbe453af\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, the Rt Hon Gerry Brownlee the other day requested that when giving points of order, that we refer to which clause\u2014which specific Standing Order\u2014the interjection related to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022487824eeb81c4c819453cd64a9f6819d\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I haven\u2019t called \u201CPoint of order\u201D, so we\u2019ll just leave it there. Thank you, Arena Williams.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c391a96f47eb47b18f93a6f765df28aa\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Those debating points were well made. They were points about how Auckland is represented in this debate, making points over and over again about how Auckland needs this investment; how Auckland\u2014to be the best city that it can be, to be the kind of city that we want to live in as Aucklanders, that we want for our kids who are growing up in Auckland to be\u2014we need long-term investment. This cannot be treated as something of a political football. We need to grow up and resource our biggest city to be a city that is somewhere where everyone wants to live.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EBecause Auckland is awesome. There are some parts of Auckland that I\u2019m so incredibly proud of. South Auckland is a creative place. Some people see it as \u201Cthe hood\u201D, but that\u2019s where all of the good creative juices come from. The worst thing about living in South Auckland is the amount of time that it takes us to get around. That is time between getting up in the morning and going to work where we are not with our kids and our families; that is time in the evening when we are tired and coming home from our jobs that we could otherwise be spending in our homes with the people we love.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ETransport and its investment isn\u2019t something that\u2019s esoteric; it\u2019s not something that is high-minded and difficult to understand. These transport investments being cut mean that more Aucklanders will spend longer in their cars. It means that kids will have to wait another half an hour before dinner with their mum or dad. It means that the kind of quality of life we enjoy as Aucklanders will be diminished. And for what? For $1.80 a week in savings for most Auckland households. That\u2019s the advice that was prepared in the departmental disclosure statement: that this, that has been done in the name of cost of living relief for Aucklanders, will have such a minute effect compared to the long-term investment that our city needs in order for us to live better lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EIn fact, it\u2019s not even that: that we\u2019re also being faced with a 22c increase on fuel, straightforwardly, almost in a very quick amount of time, and $50 increases on vehicle registrations. Those things combined mean that, essentially, this is giving with one hand and taking away with the other. You\u2019d see the regional fuel tax saving Aucklanders perhaps $600 million in revenue that would otherwise go to these specific transport projects, but the $50 increase would then net the Government another $660 million\u2014almost conveniently, the same amount of money\u2014that will then be going into a general pot for general transport projects.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThis is a real disappointment for the people of Auckland, who needed a ring-fence around those projects. We\u2019ve also heard from the other side of the House that the remaining funds in that pot of money will be spent on projects. Here\u2019s where we get back to my point about Wellington telling Auckland that we should be grateful for this, because those are projects which have been ring-fenced not by Aucklanders, but they have been saved because of the choices of this Government. Those are not necessarily the priorities of Auckland; they do not necessarily reflect the greatest need in Auckland. They are things like the Eastern Busway, which benefit certain communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo I think it\u2019s a disappointment that we are dealing with this bill in this way, that we won\u2019t have time to really drill down into what it means. But I will be using the committee stage to speak specifically to those things which this bill seeks to change in South Auckland, in the region that I call home, and those projects which we need which will be gotten rid of because of these changes\u2014changes which also allow for the prioritisation of Mill Road but also go alongside major cuts to the way that South Aucklanders get around and ultimately lead to South Aucklanders spending more time in their cars and not having transport choices to get out of their cars if they so wanted to. So I do not support this bill, and look forward to discussion at the committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u0022d3a699bf8d604a838d783f9b907ccf0d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d3a699bf8d604a838d783f9b907ccf0d\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a pleasure to rise as an Aucklander to support the repeal of the Auckland regional fuel tax today. During the election campaign, I door-knocked 80\u00A0percent of the streets in my community of Northcote\u2014I actually door-knocked Camilla Belich\u2019s home. And the number one issue that came up time and time again\u2014and I suspect she might be the Labour candidate for Northcote at the next election\u2014was the cost of living, and I\u2019m really happy to support this because this bill addresses the cost of living of those in Northcote, it addresses the cost of living of those in Pakuranga, those in Takanini, those in Mount Roskill, those in Upper Harbour, and I really support this bill. I commend this bill to the House, and, since it is a brief call, I abide by the general principle: one who talks too much makes the most mistakes. So I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022377094b667a74880a0d7868dda1fe6ee\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Land Transport Management (Repeal of Regional Fuel Tax) Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000829\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022fff6d310bd6a46e89064d742d7bb92b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fff6d310bd6a46e89064d742d7bb92b7\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for second reading immediately. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c65706617ac54e4eb0f88e23cf9c2b36\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00220e9353569e7a4627bf36db859d44c0d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e9353569e7a4627bf36db859d44c0d5\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Land Transport Management (Repeal of Regional Fuel Tax) Amendment Bill be now read a second time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThis is a great day for Aucklanders. We\u2019re repealing the Auckland regional fuel tax, a tax which the last Government put in place, promising that this tax would transform Auckland, promising that Mill Road in Takanini would be built, and promising the major infrastructure and congestion issues, which I\u2019ve heard members from across the House talking about\u2014but what has this tax actually done? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EI see my good colleague from Upper Harbour there. The big red zero is coming out\u2014the big red zero which featured with the last Government; a big fat zero. Well, the reality is that it has helped pay for $500,000 speed bumps\u2014slowing people down. They talk about congestion on the other side of this House. Well, what do $500,000 speed bumps, riddled across Auckland\u2014what are they doing to congestion in Auckland? That\u2019s what they are doing, and that\u2019s what this money was being spent on. Red-light cameras\u2014red-light cameras. That\u2019s what the regional fuel tax money was being spent on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EWhat about speed management plans? Well, whenever you hear about a speed management plan, you actually know what a speed management actually means. It means slowing everyone down, and the last Government\u2019s plans, of course, were to make us crawl around in our cars with people walking in front with red flags to tell us how fast we could go. That\u2019s what the regional fuel tax revenue was being spent on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ESo when the members on this side of the House say that Aucklanders voted for this, it\u2019s true: Aucklanders voted in overwhelming numbers to repeal the Auckland regional fuel tax. They were doing it not only because it was a cost of living issue but they knew\u2014they knew\u2014that the money was going to waste. When they drive around the roads, they see the congestion and they feel the potholes, but they see $500,000 speed bumps being built, and Aucklanders are wondering \u201CWhy is there always enough money to build $500,000 speed bumps, but not enough asphalt to fill the potholes?\u201D Well, it\u2019s because the regional fuel tax was putting the money into the wrong areas. So the National Party, the ACT Party, and the New Zealand First Party are proud to be here, putting this bill through to repeal the Auckland regional fuel tax. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThis bill does not just\u2014as I outlined\u2014stop the fuel tax but it is about priorities. It is about making sure that the revenues that are collected from people who use our roads are prioritised into what is important to them. So this bill will ring-fence the remaining money, because\u2014I mean, lo and behold, over $340 million of money was unspent. So,\u00A0for six years, Aucklanders have been taxed over $340\u00A0million\u2014that is, over two years\u2019 worth of the revenues collected from Aucklanders has not even been spent; it\u2019s sitting in a bank account, collecting interest. So this bill will require that that remaining funding is put\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206f1c1b9949742548c94dd4719026d0c\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s 680 speed bumps. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab4a8da96eab47a5b038c800866f84ce\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it scares me, I say to the member for Bay of Plenty. It scares me to think about how many speed bumps that could build. My view is actually just to stop the speed bumps, which is what we\u2019re doing through the Government policy statement, rather than continuing to spend money on something which isn\u2019t a priority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ESo this will stop the regional fuel tax. It will require the remaining funding to go towards our priority project, which is the City Rail Link, trains and stabling for the City Rail Link\u2014and, by the way, the last Government talked big about public transport, but we started the City Rail Link and we will complete it\u2014the Eastern Busway, which will ensure more transport choices for those in East Auckland, including the Reeves Road flyover; and there are some local roading improvement projects, which are important to Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EAlso, importantly for the rest of the country\u2014and I heard members opposite saying, \u201COh well, why is it that all of these people from outside of Auckland speaking on this bill?\u201D Well, the reality is that we\u2019re all elected as members of this House and we take a national interest to the issues facing this country. I put it to members opposite that by repealing this legislation, it means there will not be regional fuel taxes being able to be put in place in other regions around our country as well, which is of course good news for all New Zealanders. This bill is progressing through the House, and I commend it to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u00226aca0c966cda4258893002ea4da6face\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226aca0c966cda4258893002ea4da6face\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m going to begin this contribution by putting to bed the ridiculous notion of $500,000 speed bumps. I think it\u2019s important to do so because it\u2019s indicative of the way that that Government over there has approached this whole issue. It seized on one or two issues and then, frankly, pursued a misleading approach to what is going on. Now, those $500,000 speed bumps, alleged, were a blaring headline in the New Zealand Herald\u2014\u201C$500,000 speed bumps\u201D, they said, blaring up. The Minister of Transport over there seized upon that number and has repeated it with glee. But the New Zealand Herald had to retract that number. Radio New Zealand, who had repeated it, had to retract that number.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThere was one speed bump\u2014or one raised crossing, I think\u2014that had to be rebuilt because it encountered serious stormwater problems, and that led to increased costs because of those serious stormwater problems; it incurred those costs. But the speed bumps, and the like, along Meola Road, and the like, cost around about $19,000\u2014cost a much, much smaller amount than has been recited with glee by that side of the House. So the estimated cost of crossings is between $19,000 and $31,000. So I\u2019m going to ask the Minister to treat this with a bit of integrity, to treat this with a bit of being straightforward, and to treat this going with what the real numbers are. So instead of reciting a headline that had to be withdrawn, to go to the actual real numbers in this case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ELet me go on to another issue. There has been no select committee process here, yet again\u2014yet again, no select committee process. This Government has barrelled through bill after bill after bill after bill with no select committee process, in some kind of frenzied attempt to meet an artificially imposed deadline of 100 days, so that they can trotter around saying, \u201COh, we\u2019ve achieved a whole lot of \u2018stop, repeal, replace\u2019 in a hundred days.\u201D Well, good on them! That does mean we haven\u2019t had a select committee process for this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ESo what I have chosen to do with the time I have available here is to actually get some evidence from what is happening in our largest city. So in the New Zealand Herald\u2014what\u2019s the date today?\u2014well, yesterday, the day before yesterday, Monday: \u201CExtra Buses for March Madness as Auckland\u2019s worst choke points revealed\u201D. It happens every year in Auckland. In March, the roads are just beyond congested\u2014extraordinary choke points on the road. Now, it happens as the universities go back and the polytechnics go back and as schools go back, so, suddenly, there is just a whole lot more people on the roads. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000846\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThe choke points are reasonably well known. We know it\u2019s East T\u0101maki to Greenlane in the morning. It\u2019s Royal to St Lukes. We know it\u2019s Greville Road to Esmonde Road on the Northern Motorway. We know it\u2019s Manukau to M\u0101ngere northbound on State Highway 20. We know where the choke points are and we know what the problems are. We have some of the same issues, going home in the evenings. Any Aucklander who is trying to get through the city at sort of between 8 and 10 in the morning, or maybe 7 and 10 morning, and trying to get home between, say, 3 and 6 in the evening, we don\u2019t have to tell you this. It\u2019s northbound on the Southern Motorway from Princess Street to Greenlane. It\u2019s State Highway 20 and State Highway 1 merging in the evening\u2014that\u2019s a really choked-up point. You know, we might as well call State Highway 20 \u201Ca parking lot\u201D at that time of the day. And on it goes, just the known choke points.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000847\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, part of what we are trying to do in Auckland is to get people to change to public transport, to change to active modes of transport so that we have fewer cars on the road. What some of the regional fuel tax was going to do was to help with that, with providing those projects, which would enable people to access other modes of transport so that they didn\u2019t have to be on the roads, in their cars. Gone, and the March madness will persist. So that\u2019s one story coming from Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000848\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI thought this one was fascinating, coming from Devonport. So this was on Radio New Zealand, on 22 February. One of the local ward councillors on the Devonport Takapuna Local Board was really, really worried when she heard the news that the regional fuel tax was going to be removed. Why? It was because the Lake Road project has gone. Now, that\u2019s the road that runs down into the peninsula, so from Takapuna down to Devonport, and it is hopelessly crowded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220cd68da59b3c4862b92b738b9f160b9d\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Always blocked. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000850\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022345e0a36180b4dfdbb5b08018b04abaa\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: It is always blocked. It makes life quite difficult for people living on that peninsula. You know, Devonport is a really beautiful suburb, and I can understand why people want to live there, but they cannot get in and they cannot get out. Why? It\u2019s because Lake Road is choked up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000851\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, one of the potential improvements that actually hasn\u2019t just been put on hold but has been stopped was the improvements to Lake Road that were going to help with the congestion along there. So taking out the regional fuel tax has left people in Devonport stuck with their deeply congested road. Now, I know that people in Devonport, quite overwhelmingly, voted for that Government; I\u2019m beginning to wonder if they regret their\u00A0choices.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000852\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EAnd here again, another piece of information, and this is in lieu of the submissions that we might have received, is from Auckland Mayor Wayne Brown. Now, Mr Brown can be fairly cantankerous at times, but he\u2019s a pretty straight-dealing sort of man. It\u2019s one of the interesting things about dealing with him: he might be grumpy, but, by goodness, you get a straight answer from him. You get some pretty straight language, and it makes him quite easy to deal with, because at least you know where he stands on stuff. He has warned, he says, that, actually, stopping the Auckland fuel tax is going to create huge problems for Auckland. He has been quite outspoken about how he actually wanted that regional fuel tax to continue. He has had to call for a stop on all sorts of transport projects because the regional fuel tax is no longer in place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000853\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s not just Mr Brown; it\u2019s other city councillors who have said that this is a real problem. The transport committee chair, John Watson, said that a number of significant projects have been left up in the air. Councillor Richard Hills said that the projects that were being funded through the regional fuel tax were needed. So, by removing the regional fuel tax, that Government has created real, ongoing problems for Auckland. The Auckland Mayor, who said, you know, \u201CWe needed that funding up in Auckland.\u201D, has put a stop to projects that were needed. Well, thank you very much, you know, we\u2019re one of the people who are stuck in that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EBut I want to talk a little bit further, because some of the other submissions that might have come in\u2014had there only been submissions\u2014might have got to some of the information that was revealed in this disclosure statement. We\u2019ve already traversed a little bit of the information that was there about the actual impact on people\u2019s back pockets, which we know is going to be about $2.70 a week per household\u2014big deal! But there are going to be a couple of problems. One is that, in theory, the price of fuel is going to drop by 10c a litre. Now, no matter that it varies by more than that across the city a lot, even on a single day, but driving from the Gull station in Titirangi down to the Mobil station in New Lynn can see a 10c increase in the price of petrol just because of the way that pricing operates. But one of the things about the way those prices fluctuate means it is going to be very hard to be sure that that 10c a litre is actually going to be passed on to\u00A0consumers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI haven\u2019t heard a word yet from the other side of the House as to how they are going to ensure that the actual benefit of that cut is going to be passed on to the consumers, instead of just quietly absorbed by the fuel companies. So I\u2019d like to hear about that, and I\u2019ll be asking the Minister about it later on in the committee of the whole House stage of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EBut let me just read the last paragraph of the disclosure statement that was prepared by the Minister\u2019s own officials\u2014the last paragraph. It says: \u201CRemoving the Regional Fuel Tax is unlikely to have a substantive impact on households and this change would need to be made alongside other interventions in order to help reduce the cost of living on Aucklanders.\u201D What are the other interventions that they put in place in this space? Well, they\u2019re going to whack up the cost of registration by $50. An own goal, Minister; you are making the wrong decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002226f2bccc348849dcbc4fcccf6625b091\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002226f2bccc348849dcbc4fcccf6625b091\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed\u00A0to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u00227685dcafeee24992814a4d6dc99459d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227685dcafeee24992814a4d6dc99459d0\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E As I said in my first contribution on this bill, I think that it\u2019s really a shame that the current coalition Government took such an antagonistic approach to being in Opposition and developed such knee-jerk policies and didn\u2019t really do the work to figure out how they would raise enough revenue to pay for the projects they\u2019re promising.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EWhile, on the one hand, it\u2019s clear they did campaign on cancelling the regional fuel tax, what was never clear was how the additional revenue was going to be found to pay for the projects that need to be built. And, clearly, the regional fuel tax was a tool given to Auckland so that it didn\u2019t have to entirely rely on rates to pay for transport infrastructure. And it\u2019s a smart, low-administrative-cost way of raising revenue that, frankly, consumers don\u2019t really notice, because of the competitive nature of the market of petrol stations in Auckland. Despite the regional fuel tax existing in Auckland, the cheapest petrol in the country can be found in Auckland regularly. So it\u2019s not the case that this was imposing some big additional cost that consumers are going to notice when it\u2019s gone. But what people are going to notice is that projects they were expecting to be built\u2014like the Lake Road upgrade in Devonport and a whole lot of other ones\u2014are no longer going to happen. And if they are going to make a contribution to transport infrastructure, it\u2019s going to have to come from rates. And Wayne Brown, the mayor, has been very clear about this. Cutting the regional fuel tax at this time means either a rates rise or a cut in projects.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ENow, the Minister of Transport has just released a Government policy statement on transport in which he has sort of claimed that the decisions made by this Government are going to lead to a more efficient and effective transport system and that they\u2019re concerned with productivity and economic growth. But every action they\u2019re taking is doing the exact opposite. I think, fundamentally, there\u2019s a real confusion\u2014specifically for the Minister, the Hon Simeon Brown\u2014about why everyone drives everywhere in Auckland. He seems to think people are driving cars all over Auckland because they want to and are being stuck in traffic because they want to, and what he doesn\u2019t realise is that decades of Government and local government decisions have made it impossible for them to get anywhere without a car. Actually, those Government decisions have forced huge costs on to households, because it\u2019s very costly to own and run a car, and then lots of land is needed to park the car\u2014everywhere you need to go. And, now, New Zealand has actually just surpassed the US for highest car-ownership rate in the world. That\u2019s not a success story for New Zealand, because we import all of our cars and all of the fuel to run them. So all of our dairy exports do not cover the cost of the private vehicles that we import and the fuel that we need to use to run them. Those capital assets\u2014they are barely used. The average private vehicle is sitting parked 96 percent of the day, taking up valuable urban land in our cities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000861\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ENow, when I say all of this, the Minister and the people opposite come back with \u201CJulie Anne Genter just hates cars. She just hates roads. She just hates cars.\u201D Guys, that\u2019s not what I\u2019m saying. Cars can be very practical, useful tools, but it\u2019s not practical for every person in New Zealand to have to have their own car, which they use four hours a day or less and that they have to keep parked somewhere and they all try to use at the same time of day in the morning and the night in urban areas. That doesn\u2019t work. Do you understand\u2014Madam Speaker, not you, but do they understand? Why do they say this? Why do they say this when I say, \u201CThis is not the most cost-effective way to solve our country\u2019s transport problems, and there are better ways that get better outcomes.\u201D? Why\u00A0do they say, \u201CWhy do you hate roads?\u201D Why do they say that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EI think that must be projection, and on the part of the Minister, he actually does hate people who walk and ride bikes, because why else would he have such a policy that is trying to stop every safe, evidence-based pedestrian crossing in front of every school that might have been proposed? Why is he doing that? I mean, that\u2019s shocking. Why is he saying that no money from the State highway activity class could ever be used for a multimodal transport\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf7846245d6f42458eb00e8cee03f62a\u0022\u003ECameron Luxton\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. This is my first time raising a point of order, and taking note of what the previous Speaker had said\u2014that we must quote one\u2014I would just say Standing Order 121: \u201CPersonal reflections. A member may not [impute improper motives] against a member\u201D, and I feel like we just heard that. So, as much as I\u2019m enjoying listening to the speaker, I would hope that she\u2019d keep her comments to not reflections.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000864\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252f9caaad34c4daba59c00f85c21d144\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I will just get some advice on that. Yes, the member did refer to an opinion about the Minister\u2019s point of view on something. It\u00A0was borderline, but I don\u2019t believe it did breach the Standing Orders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022653eb0d784374e93973facc856ad0ffb\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: To be honest, I would never say that, except that people consistently say it about me when I say this is not the most cost-effective way to solve your problem. And so I said, \u201CIf they\u2019re saying that about me, what does it say about their thoughts and their attitudes and beliefs?\u201D, because there is not\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b2672720-3dfe-421a-af8c-20f00d44da3d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247774980db1147f88b2de33ac8bfb510\u0022\u003ETodd Stephenson\u003C/span\u003E: You said the Minister hates people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240bcda2e9f4645509e342d82a0941ea8\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, maybe it was projection, because, yeah\u2014maybe it\u2019s projection on their part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000868\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EBut the point is that there is an opportunity that New Zealand has to get much better outcomes from transport spending, and if we took a logical, evidence-based approach, then we would be investing in things that move more people and goods at lower cost\u2014and that is things like multimodal integrated transport projects, that is busways and public transport to new greenfields housing areas on the outskirts of Auckland, that is making it possible for people to get from one neighbourhood on one side of a State highway and the other side of the State highway walking and cycling, because some people live on one side of a State highway, and the school that their kids go to is on the other side. If they aren\u2019t able to take an overbridge or have a walking and cycling path, then they have to get in their car and drive the kilometre or whatever to get there. And if they have to get in their car and drive at peak time, that\u2019s adding more congestion to the network.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000869\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo the whole rationale of spending money on public transport and walking and cycling from the transport budget is because it benefits everyone. It benefits everyone, and that includes the people who are driving the cars on the road. For whatever reason that they have to do that, that\u2019s fine, but the point is that they benefit more from the busway or from the pedestrian connection than they do from a few kilometres of extra lane of motorway, because that is very quickly filled up with more cars when people have no choice but to drive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000870\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EAnd, in some ways, the fact that the Minister recognises the value of public transport to road users is reflected in this bill, because, in this bill, the Government is stipulating that the remaining funds that exist from the Auckland regional fuel tax should go towards the Eastern Busway. It is a project that that Government, the National Party, campaigned on. I think it\u2019s quite specifically beneficial to the Minister\u2019s electorate. He\u2019s brought up, over and over again, that his constituents will benefit from the Eastern Busway. And, in this case, he\u2019s saying it\u2019s OK to use revenue from the regional fuel tax\u2014revenue from Aucklanders who\u2019ve paid it from driving their cars\u2014on a busway when it\u2019s of significance to the party who campaigned on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000871\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo there\u2019s no actual rule here that says road users shouldn\u2019t pay for busways and bike lanes, because we know they benefit from it. It\u2019s just that the Government will use whatever argument supports the things they want to do for the reasons they want to do it. Unfortunately, that doesn\u2019t seem to be because it\u2019s going to benefit all New Zealanders and all of Auckland, because people in some parts of Auckland are going to be seriously disadvantaged by this repeal of the regional fuel tax, because it means that there won\u2019t be the money there to build the projects that they were relying on, whether they were public transport or walking and cycling or roading projects. The revenue won\u2019t be there to pay for it, other than through rates. And we know local government needs more revenue tools, and congestion pricing and direct road-user charging is going to take years to get up. So,\u00A0in the interim, there\u2019s this gap, there\u2019s this absence that has to be made up with other revenue. So that\u2019s why the Green Party\u2019s not supporting this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000872\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EBut, as ever, what I would really love\u2014and I will continue to do this; I\u2019ve been doing this for 12\u00BD years in this House, and I was doing it for three years before that\u2014is to try to make the case that, actually, transport should not be a political football. It\u2019s not a tribal battle between people who happen to use a bike some days and people who happen to use a car. The choices that people have to them, that they\u2019re able to make about how to get around, are fundamentally shaped by decisions made in this House by the executive in their Government policy statement and by local government. But the executive significantly influences what local government can do. So let\u2019s not pretend that we\u2019re giving people choice simply by building more roads. I mean, that\u2019s not what\u2019s happening. Successive Governments have underfunded public transport. They\u2019ve pushed development out to the fringes where there\u2019s no other alternatives. In order to give people effective choices, we need to significantly invest much, much more in public transport, walking, and cycling. To mend the severance that\u2019s been caused by urban motorways, we need to allow more density in our cities, and that, ironically, is the thing that\u2019s going to deliver the most for the people who are trying to use private vehicles on the roads we currently have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022 data-id=\u0022847a6e4d61ac4f2293b3decc1054ecbb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000873\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022847a6e4d61ac4f2293b3decc1054ecbb\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I stand here in support of this repeal bill for many reasons and just to name a couple: I feel like the good people of Tauranga are already living with two toll roads. Now, there\u2019s three toll roads in New Zealand, two of which are paid for in Tauranga, and we are enjoying these very much. They\u2019re a user-pays situation in which\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000874\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4f6e9aa084e40738fa6b0dfb4c7041d\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CToll-ranga\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000875\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022849c2184c8934e61bcc6739ae240b27f\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON\u003C/span\u003E: Tauranga!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000876\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244ffcfa091564b57895b505d81eda324\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CToll-ranga\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000877\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228545993ae0364077adbe3250321f9b3f\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, well, Tauranga\u2014I don\u2019t actually know how to pronounce it the way you did there. Oh, \u201CToll-ranga\u201D! Nice work, \u201CTom-ranga\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000878\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003ESo what we have got is a user-pays system which works. I would love to see more people being able to access the central city. A lot of people from the Matapihi, P\u0101p\u0101moa, Arataki area already cycle over to the Strand, and when that option\u2019s available people can take it. But for the vast majority of New Zealanders who choose to live where they want to live\u2014and that might be in a suburb for their kids, it might be close to a lifestyle opportunity like a beach\u2014they need to be able to get to town. A regressive thing such as a regional fuel tax sets a precedent for the rest of the country that we do not want. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000879\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EI stand here glad to be repealing Auckland\u2019s fuel tax so that we don\u2019t end up with one in the Bay of Plenty. Thank you, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022 data-id=\u002209e6615c7281486d97c5d7fbe2e89706\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000880\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002209e6615c7281486d97c5d7fbe2e89706\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E My turn. I\u2019m pleased again to support this bill. Look, I\u2019m going to start off by responding to a couple of comments that were made by the Hon\u00A0Julie Anne Genter. She said that transport shouldn\u2019t be a political football. I would agree with her, because I would say that the more things that we can get long-term consensus on in the community and across the political divide, the better, especially on things like transport, which, often, you\u2019re putting in transport infrastructure and it will be there for 100, 200, 300 years, and will have an effect across that long period of time. The reality is, though, we are having a vigorous debate about this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000881\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EI\u2019m just going to pick up on some of the issues which have been raised, just to show that I\u2019ve been listening to what the Opposition has been saying. The Hon Deborah Russell talked about any council being able to apply for a fuel tax, and, of course, that is going to go under this legislation. However, my recollection was that Jacinda Ardern, as Prime Minister, actually ruled out any more regional fuel taxes, and she did, indeed, do that. I\u2019ve got a quote from a news article here: \u201CJacinda Ardern has ruled out any more regional fuel taxes under her leadership,\u201D I accept that she\u2019s obviously not the leader anymore, but it was clear and emphatic, ruling that out. \u201CI can give [a] guarantee to this House and consumers [that] there will be no other regional fuel taxes while I\u2019m Prime Minister.\u201D She\u00A0also said\u2014which was interesting because of this concept of saying, \u201CWell, actually, there could be other parts of the country which would like to have a regional fuel tax.\u201D She also said, \u201CWell, some regions are desperate for investment,\u201D said Ms Ardern, \u201Cbut we\u2019ve ruled it out.\u201D\u2014but we\u2019ve ruled it out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000882\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003ESo these other parts of the country which were going to benefit from the thing which had gone in in Auckland\u2014and I can remember, because I was mayor at the time, and, actually, my predecessor also came and asked the Hon Phil Twyford, who I see over here, and he\u2019s nodding. He said, \u201CWell, on the basis of that ruling out\u201D\u2014I presume that\u2019s what it was\u2014\u201Cno, Wellington, you cannot have a regional fuel tax either.\u201D In fact, what I wanted was to say, \u201CI would like you to at least say, \u2018Can we get the congestion price legislation under way.\u2019 \u201D\u2014nodding over there again. The answer was no. But after you got through the 2020 election, the answer was \u201CYeah, well, maybe, maybe, maybe.\u201D So\u00A0we felt like we were making some progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000883\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EBut I think the reality was that, from our perspective, there was value in getting the right mechanism there. I accept that the congestion pricing is going to take a fair bit of time to get to, but that is the right mechanism, because it changes people\u2019s behaviour as well. It is not simply a blunt tool which affects everybody. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000884\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve heard that issue about being regressive. The reality is that many people are going to need to use their car. Auckland\u2019s issue is not just about the transport system; it\u2019s about its form. It\u2019s such a big city that to get around it, for many people, the car is the only option. Public transport is not going to be viable for many, many people to use, and so the car is going to be necessary. For those people, what this is is regressive and it affects them significantly, and that\u2019s why we\u2019re pleased to stand to repeal this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000885\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EWe also heard that there\u2019s going to be a whole lot of projects which will now be cancelled. They won\u2019t be cancelled; Auckland can still put them up into the National Land Transport Programme, and if they are good projects, they will get through that process. Now, sometimes we over-embellish things in this House, but the reality is we\u2019re talking about something like\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3efba06c03643e091868e114ce5989f\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: Really?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000887\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262fd0740b8694eccab6c77661ca6dfad\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER\u003C/span\u003E: Really? Yes, sometimes things get over-embellished. But we\u2019re talking here about $130 million - odd a year. The National Land Transport Fund from fuel taxes, etc., $4.5\u00A0billion a year. Auckland would usually get roughly a third of that\u2014$1.5 billion a year. So we\u2019re talking about 8 percent or so of the money which would be, effectively, going to Auckland. So, yes, it will have an impact; the issue is: how much impact.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EThen, of course, the issue is: does that put that little bit of extra pressure on, saying that you\u2019ve got to get better-quality projects? And, look, we\u2019ve heard about $500,000 speed humps and pedestrian crossings. That\u2019s not great. We\u2019ve heard about the cost of putting those sort of things in, and we\u2019ve got to have a look at that, the cost of all the health and safety issues around those. But if we can try and make sure that we get better-quality investment, I think that that will be a very, very good thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve also heard some accusations about this Government whacking up the fuel tax. What we haven\u2019t heard from the other side of the House is that it\u2019s three years before any of that happens at all. We also haven\u2019t heard the recognition that\u2014in fact, I think it was both under a National- and a Labour-led Government that 4c a litre regularly went on the petrol tax. So, in fact, if you said 4c a litre over six years, you\u2019d be 24c a litre anyway, so there\u2019s probably not a lot between the two sides there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000890\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve also heard an accusation about giving with one hand and taking away with the other, about registration rising. I don\u2019t think that the cost of registering a vehicle has gone up since 1994\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000891\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d9bc1975a7a492d893834f83951d851\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: Before I was born.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000892\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b681c8e9ae55420ca059e5790d94a543\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER\u003C/span\u003E: Before Tom was born. What I would say to people right around the Chamber is that so often a price is set and it\u2019s not adjusted\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d593ed3960a24d50ac76d3a0480eb132\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, one-off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000894\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae88650efd1f483b840710a4e522d843\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014yeah, these one-off prices\u2014and Labour-led Governments are equally guilty of that. I know that, because, having been in local government, we would regularly come to Government and say, \u201CHey, you haven\u2019t allowed this price to go up for 20, 30 years. It\u2019s now completely out of whack. Can you do that?\u201D We should never be put in that position. We should never be imposing that. A little bit of trust between central government and other people will go a very, very long way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000895\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003ESo I think those are most of the things that I wish to say, other than to say a really, really important thing: putting cycleways in, putting busways and public transport improvements in, can benefit motorists, but we have to get the balance right, and, so often, we are not taking motorists with us\u2014we are not taking motorists with us. In fact, some of those projects have a significant negative impact on motorists. I look around the city that I live in, and I know that people have not been taken on that journey at all, and that they see a real, negative impact on people who want to get about and do their business and they just happen to want to be able to use a car and they are not happy with that. I am delighted to commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022 data-id=\u00223bd455a10b90498db547ddbfd1cd7eb4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000896\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223bd455a10b90498db547ddbfd1cd7eb4\u0022\u003ETAKUTAI TARSH KEMP (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014T\u0101maki Makaurau):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Madam Speaker. Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori do not support the Government\u2019s transport agenda. Let\u2019s start, firstly, by saying that this is not about the cost of living. We\u2019ve already heard from this Government about their anti-beneficiary, anti - wage earner policies, where they want to sanction beneficiaries and cut the yearly increase for minimum wage. So let\u2019s not have a cost of living discussion with this policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000897\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022\u003EOur policy is for free public transport that is accessible and efficient. This could be implemented immediately with tamariki, students, and community services card holders, and be made free for everyone within five years. Our policy is to ensure that urban planning and infrastructure allows for safe cycling and walking paths, and that cheap and accessible public and active transport is also prioritised in regional and rural Aotearoa and not just in our major cities. That is the whakaaro behind our position today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000898\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022\u003EThis Government campaigned to build 15 new roads and has pledged $500 million to fix potholes. The one pothole they cannot fix, however, is the $24 billion pothole in their Budget. It\u2019s the road users that are going to have to be paying for their reckless policies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000899\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022\u003EOn top of road-user charges, they are putting up regos by $50. That money will go towards funding 50,000 roadside drug-tests, which they will be making back by increasing fines. They are cutting cycleway and walkway projects, creating more congestion on the roads, and then increasing congestion charges at peak-hour traffic. How many people here have sat in peak-hour traffic in T\u0101maki-makau-rau? It\u2019s a nightmare.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000900\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022\u003EThis Government is taking the option away from people to use reliable public transport, forcing them to sit in traffic and then pay for it, because they cannot plan more than three years ahead. By disincentivising electric vehicles while at the same time cutting public transport, this Government is fuelling climate change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000901\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022\u003EWe\u2019re in urgency, so just a message from some of our community members across T\u0101maki-makau-rau who want to be able to share their thinking. The first message I got today was, \u201CTakutai, Aucklanders don\u2019t feel confident in this Government.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000902\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df6b2cfe2114463995d5096d0a202cea\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re confused.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000903\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255f08e017b0c44b0a9490d564f9af0d2\u0022\u003ETAKUTAI TARSH KEMP\u003C/span\u003E: They are confused, exactly\u2014they are confused. But they don\u2019t feel confident with this Government. Here\u2019s the thing: this Government wants to cancel projects. However, these projects are already under way. They\u2019ve still got to go ahead. We\u2019ve still got to find the money for them. They can\u2019t just stop. One of the projects that was mentioned was: what\u2019s going to happen to the safety for our school kids that are needing the flashing lights, the traffic lights, to keep those tamariki safe when they\u2019re going to school? That\u2019s one of those projects. The community are asking: what happens? Does that mean it doesn\u2019t go ahead now, and then our kids are unsafe on the roads when they go to school, where they should be at their safest? Have you seen the roads down Mahia Road in Manurewa? My gosh, they are dangerous. Our kids need safe roads to cross when they\u2019re going to school. Even outside Manurewa Marae, it\u2019s a main road along there. Reducing the speed of traffic along that main road of Finlayson doesn\u2019t help; it needs the flashing lights to get people safe across the roads.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000904\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022\u003EThis bill also creates another debate: it\u2019s not just about transport; who\u2019s going to be responsible for the drainage after the flooding? Who\u2019s going to be responsible for the cesspits caused in Parnell? It\u2019s all interrelated: infrastructure and transport. This is what Aucklanders are asking. So I\u2019m here to say that Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori, on behalf of our wh\u0101nau in T\u0101maki-makau-rau, do not support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022d520ce00b5594560a30220d508eebfda\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000905\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d520ce00b5594560a30220d508eebfda\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Everybody should have the right to fully participate in their communities, and transport options play a huge part of that. In\u00A0order to ensure that people can actually get around their towns and cities, they need to have options around how they do that, not just being locked into cars being one of the options that they have, and, on top of that, with infrastructure that doesn\u2019t allow for things like walking and cycling and for our kids to safely be able to go to things like school.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000906\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EWhat we\u2019re seeing right now is a repeal that will cut the revenue-gathering tool that the Government had to be able to fund transport projects, and the Government not proposing an alternative. For all the talk around the Government still being committed to public transport, the reality is that what we\u2019re experiencing is, effectively, a cut in real funding when it comes to public transport projects, effectively locking people, particularly in big urban centres, to only being able to get around with cars.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000907\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EWhat is worse is that by cutting revenue streams\u2014that would have enabled greater investment in public transport\u2014and locking in polluting infrastructure, carbon-intensive infrastructure, and locking people into cars, what we are also doing is leaving our communities more prone to severe weather events, like the ones that Auckland experienced last year, effectively putting more of our communities at risk of climate change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000908\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThis repeal needs to be put in the broader context of the Government\u2019s infrastructure plans. It\u2019s been portrayed as a cost of living measure. It\u2019s interesting, because if I take the words of another Minister in a different debate, who, when we talked about benefits, talked, at the time, about how no single bill can be taken in isolation\u2014she was talking about a bill that would increase child poverty. And then we see this bill that is being pitched as a cost of living measure when, actually, the cost of living benefits for our communities of this specific repeal are minimal in the broader context of a Government that is lowering benefit increases, attacking workers\u2019 wages, and doing nothing to genuinely alleviate the high costs of housing. At the same time, this bill therefore has to be put into the context of a Government that is doing nothing to alleviate the pressures that people face when it comes to the cost of taking public transport. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000909\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ESo all that this bill is doing is cutting a key revenue-gathering tool for infrastructure projects\u2014ideally there should be public transport infrastructure projects\u2014and this Government is proposing no alternatives. We could be looking at general taxation policy to gather revenue for transport infrastructure projects, we could be looking at congestion pricing, and yet this Government isn\u2019t brave enough to put progressive alternatives to commit funding for public transport infrastructure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EAnyone who lives in places like Auckland will know how far behind we are when it comes to investing in public transport infrastructure. Rather than playing political football around how slow successive Governments have been at delivering public transport infrastructure, we should have a Government that is brave enough to look at the evidence, the science, and, actually, the feedback from our communities who are very clear that they want options to get around.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000911\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EPeople in our schools, and kids, have been proactive at galvanising and running campaigns around safe walking and cycling infrastructure so they can get to school. The repeal of the regional fuel tax leaves a gap when it comes to the ability to resource those projects, on top of a Minister of Transport that has actually waged a war on that safe infrastructure that would have enabled people to have those options.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000912\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ESo the Green Party does not support the Land Transport Management (Repeal of Regional Fuel Tax) Amendment Bill for those reasons. The Minister could have been clear about what alternative revenue-gathering tools he was going to propose when he introduced that bill. We don\u2019t have that. We just have a bill that has been led by a rhetoric that wasn\u2019t grounded on evidence, that was pushed through the campaign, and also a bill that doesn\u2019t allow for the people who are going to be most affected by infrastructure decisions to actually give feedback on this bill. So, by having this bill in urgency, we\u2019re preventing the campaigners\u2014the young people who\u2019ve been pushing for safe walking and cycling and infrastructure, on top of better public transport\u2014from giving their thoughts on, actually, what should therefore replace this repeal if we\u2019re going to have this being taken away from the Government\u2019s ability to resource transport projects. We call on the Government to genuinely commit to public transport infrastructure rather than to lock us into climate change policies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022 data-id=\u0022b47168320d5843e19ab88bb73b3fed6c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000913\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b47168320d5843e19ab88bb73b3fed6c\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E One of the other important aspects of this bill is the removal of the opportunity for other regional fuel taxes. The people of Northland certainly do not want one. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u00229c283f046acc4bf1a64a8cffcca23b8a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000914\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c283f046acc4bf1a64a8cffcca23b8a\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E I want to start by talking about some of the things that my colleagues have talked about today, about the fear they have of the war that\u2019s being waged in this situation: I would have thought that the issue of transport and proper funding of transport was almost apolitical because it affects our entire community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000915\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI picked up an email recently from one of the principals in a school in my area, and it\u2019s a school that\u2019s been subject to quite a lot of noise about what the Minister of Transport calls \u201Cspeed bumps\u201D, but they\u2019re actually raised crossings. So they stand above the road and they are crossings that go\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000916\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299dfc5993592400dac8111d69c27013c\u0022\u003EHon Simeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re speed bumps.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000917\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a46b2a7aab7463b8d7897322ca07491\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister\u2019s laughing at this point, but I\u2019m not sure he\u2019ll be laughing once he\u2019s heard the email that came in. It came in about the concern of the principal about the safety of children at his school, and he starts talking about speeds in the area, and how necessary they are because the children are walking to school. But he also talks about the impact of a lack of safety, and he says, \u201CI\u2019m not sure if anyone in this email list\u201D\u2014and he sent it to Melissa Lee and he sent it to myself and he sent it to Auckland Transport\u2014\u201Chas attended the funeral of a child who has died as a result of being hit by a car. I have. It was in my time in\u201D\u2014and I\u2019m going to leave the suburb out so it doesn\u2019t affect people\u2014\u201Cand the student was hit by a car on a 50-kilometre road while riding a bike. The car wasn\u2019t speeding, but it killed him. I vividly remember the call from my principal. I remember the immense grief of knowing that we would not see his joyous, smiling face at school again. I remember the funeral. I remember the sobbing. I remember consoling his teacher as we stood at the open casket. I do not want to attend another funeral like this.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000918\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ENow, I don\u2019t usually consider myself in this House to be a person who talks melodrama. But I think it\u2019s worth remembering that when taxes like this are cut and there is a shortfall and the mayor has much pressure on him to keep down the rates, the results are likely to be that things go; things that need to be there go. When the Minister talks about speed bumps costing $500,000\u2014knowing that that was retracted, because it\u2019s been in the media that it wasn\u2019t correct\u2014there is a politicisation of an issue and a clouding of an issue that we surely have to see with much clearer vision than that. If the life of a child is at stake, we are going to have to slow down the cars, and we\u2019re going to have to do it by raised crossings. On the road that this principal\u2019s talking about\u2014I know that area\u2014it\u2019s an area with very, very high walking and cycling as it is, so it\u2019s even more necessary because of the vulnerability of those people. It\u2019s absolutely necessary. We take that seriously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000919\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI take the point that\u2019s been made that there are other tools\u2014there are things like congestion charging\u2014all for looking at those things. I was on that select committee, I\u00A0looked at that, I was concerned and sceptical about it because it does depend on what the impact is on people who are living a long way away, who tend to be the poorer people, and they have to come to their jobs. But I can see the point in exploring those tools and doing it together. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000920\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EBut what I don\u2019t like is when the Minister politicises an issue that should never have been political. What we have here is something that affects the very hearts of our communities. We must\u2014must\u2014keep funding for these kinds of projects. Instead, the Minister has ring-fenced certain projects. It has been pointed out he\u2019s ring-fenced a project in his area that affects the people in his area. He has noticed the impact of busways in that area. But he has not ring-fenced the area of mine; he has not said that, in the Mt\u00A0Albert area, we\u2019re going to give the same sort of priority to busways and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000921\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f926978c77143b7ba6f90d43459e31c\u0022\u003EHon Simeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Does the train go through?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000922\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254a3a73905dc403fbf8351eabfea91a7\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE\u003C/span\u003E: Actually, the trains that are here\u2014there are bits that are cut out of the new train services, Minister. So the comment that he\u2019s just made across the House about whether it affects the trains is, yes, we get some of that early stuff, but we don\u2019t get a lot of the enhancement in the trains, and I\u2019ll be asking about that in the committee stage, so we better get ready.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000923\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ESo what I am saying here is that these are priorities, but it\u2019s not all I want to say here. It is not just about safety; it\u2019s also about the cost to Auckland in terms of its wealth. I have the portfolio of small business and I have manufacturing, and have sat in the traffic and waited and wondered how much it\u2019s costing Auckland to be this congested. It is actually costing a lot, and we know now that if we can get people out of their cars\u2014particularly in the inner city suburbs, because they can walk and they can cycle, and e-bikes make that possible\u2014if we can encourage them out, and if we can have good busways, then it frees up the capacity for the roads to be used in a productive way. So I am concerned about the price that Aucklanders will pay in terms of productivity because of this retroactive step of taking this away. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000924\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI actually share the concerns of the mayor. This is money that was ring-fenced for Auckland, and it is an alternative to rate rises, and, instead, the Minister has taken away the specific ring-fenced tax to Auckland where Aucklanders pay for Auckland infrastructure, and instead he\u2019s bringing in another tax which is actually through the driver\u2019s licence system, and that goes to the whole of the country. How fair is that?  Auckland loses its specific commitment and its specific build when it is so necessary, and it loses it to the whole country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI note that we\u2019ve had a lot of people jump up on the other side and speak for their whole 30 seconds and they haven\u2019t been from Auckland; we\u2019ve had very few Aucklanders stand up on this one because it affects their constituents. It affects the constituents in Devonport and it affects my constituents\u2014it affects them. This is not a future-forward piece of legislation for Auckland. is going to hurt Aucklanders, and they\u2019re going to pay in another way through the driver\u2019s licence, a different form of tax, and they\u2019re not going to pay for things that they know are building a better Auckland for them. That\u2019s not going to happen, and so I am very concerned to see that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000926\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI also just want to tell them something that\u2019s a bit of bad news, which is that if they expect to see the fuel come down 10c a litre every time they go to the pump, unfortunately that\u2019s very unlikely to happen. When I look at the fuel prices that have been in the North and I compare them to the fuel prices once you\u2019ve hit the area where the tax applies, you can\u2019t see that that\u2019s going to be a transparent drop in the price. It\u2019s very unlikely. It\u2019s extremely difficult to see where that\u2019s coming from, because Auckland often has lower fuel prices. So there is no correlation. It\u2019s been pointed out by a few members, and, again, we\u2019ll be asking in the committee stage about this: what is the mechanism that means we\u2019re going to see that flow through to the ordinary Aucklander? When this law comes in, how are we going to make sure that it actually gets passed on to Aucklanders? I have some serious concerns about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000927\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI\u2019d like to just talk finally about this issue\u2014about seeing this as a cost of living issue\u2014because I live in the suburb, and I think about what would cost more for the people in that suburb of Mount Albert. I think about the issue of things like bus fares and how those affect our poorest people. So when we move away from things like half-price bus fares and cheaper bus fares and streamlined bus services, who do we hurt? Which Aucklanders are most affected by that? It\u2019s a simple question. The people who are most affected are the ones who\u2019ve got lots of kids or they live a long way out. They\u2019re the ones who miss out here, and those are the Aucklanders that, I believe, we all want to see get a step up. It\u2019s not the people with the Range Rovers\u2014it\u2019s not the people with the Range Rovers living in Freemans Bay. It drives me nuts that I can\u2019t ever find a park because I can\u2019t squeeze past the car without being very frightened of actually scratching it\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022107ba2e3d99c4009b03f0eff8e3b711b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000928\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022107ba2e3d99c4009b03f0eff8e3b711b\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u00223eb5936356d1437eb96c5dc141fb7368\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000929\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223eb5936356d1437eb96c5dc141fb7368\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E It surely has. Thank you, Madam Speaker. As the MP for Bay of Plenty, anything we can do to support our colleagues across the country\u2014and, in this case, in Auckland\u2014with the cost of living, I am happy to support. Removing the Auckland regional fuel tax will provide cost of living support, saving the driver of a Toyota Hilux around $9.20 every time they fill up in Auckland, while a Toyota Corolla driver will save around $5.75. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00223a3ac8f814c14a07b38faf9915ff22eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000930\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a3ac8f814c14a07b38faf9915ff22eb\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The next call is a split call. I call the Hon\u00A0Damien O\u2019Connor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba1dac68a5e04bd9a2b09ee46e86e1b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000931\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba1dac68a5e04bd9a2b09ee46e86e1b9\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Miles Anderson looked very, very uncomfortable when that was spoken of from that side of the House, because the reality is that he\u2019s a regional MP from the South Island, and his constituents are going to suffer from this stupid piece of legislation. We have a bunch of transport geniuses on the other side of the House here!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000932\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EWhen they last came into Government in 2008-09, one of the first things they did in 2010, they increased the weight of trucks from 44 to 53 tonnes. Oh, this was going to bring efficiency, we were told. And then the next thing they did in 2014 was change the system of funding; it was, effectively, called \u201Csweat the assets\u201D. This was designed to drive efficiency in the way that we funded our roading maintenance and upgrades. The\u00A0combination of that, quite frankly, as every regional and rural MP knows, has been the destruction of our roads since then. We have, as a country, seen the deficiencies in Auckland, because they can\u2019t help themselves, can\u2019t look after themselves through many, many years of local government incompetency\u2014I\u2019ll say that. They have not invested properly in their infrastructure. And we as the taxpayers across the country have invested billions of dollars in Auckland\u2019s infrastructure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EAnd we, when last in Government, said, \u201CWe\u2019ll put a little bit of tax on petrol, and you can invest in that transport infrastructure that\u2019s clearly deficient.\u201D And the last National Government took it off, and we put it back on. And now this coalition Government\u2019s going to take it off. And the billions of dollars of deficits that this will leave will come from regional and provincial road funding, absolutely. It will come from safety investments that save lives across our country: $5 million is the estimated cost of every single fatal accident in our country, $900,000 for every serious accident in our country. Wouldn\u2019t we be better to put that money up front, and, if so, where should it come from? Well, I know that in my home town of Westport, actually, until we intervened to bring in Gull and Nelson NPD\u2014Nelson Petroleum Distributors\u2014into the South Island, we were paying a huge amount; a lot. It was about 30c or 40c more per litre than people in Auckland. So, even with the regional fuel tax, people were paying less for fuel in Auckland than many parts of our country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000934\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb1afc4701a14e6584b455f901ca78f7\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: What other parts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227668f9e035f54d6487dbfdc4640fef4e\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Many parts. Well, let\u2019s go and have a look, as I did just before. So they vary between $2.80, roughly, in Auckland; $2.90 in the West Coast; in Waikato, $2.70. There\u2019s about a 20c to 25c variation across the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000936\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ESo the question is: what\u2019s the harm in investing in your future through a regional fuel tax? What\u2019s the harm in investing in safety and saving lives in your community? What is the harm? Can\u2019t answer it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000937\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022501fd155e8ca4c8d9e808786b1eba748\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t care.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000938\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dde39c1cfb154b7081029e84dfb457ca\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t care. What I\u2019m saying is that what we did with the implementation of this tax was actually enable Auckland to invest in its future and its future infrastructure. I think, for the most part, people didn\u2019t notice. Saving cost of living\u2014what a joke. It\u2019s been pointed out by my colleagues that it\u2019s insignificant across the scheme of things. In the end, the accidents, the congestion, and all of the other chaos that will come from the lack of investment will cost a whole lot more than being upfront, raising some revenue, and investing it in the things that Auckland desperately needs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000939\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThis is one more of those stupid pieces of legislation being passed through this House in urgency, where people don\u2019t get a chance to scrutinise it, don\u2019t get a chance to put up the counterargument and, indeed, I\u2019d say to you, will be reversed in the future\u2014will be reversed. Do you know why? Because Auckland and most Aucklanders\u2014not the Remuera crew, not the crew that sit over there, the privileged, the people who think they\u2019re entitled to a tax cut, entitled to pay less for their fuel. Well, do you know what I suggest to you, and Mr Anderson will know: the hard-working people in Southland and Waikato and in Northland, who generate the revenue for our country, they\u2019re entitled to a fair go as well. This regional fuel tax was an investment by Aucklanders in Auckland. It\u2019s been taken away, and that investment will come from the regional and provincial areas of our country that earn the money and that should have the same price and the same investment as Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u00222b68617845a84c589c7eefc1d43b5bb4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b68617845a84c589c7eefc1d43b5bb4\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s a privilege to rise as just another fabulous Aucklander to support the repeal of the Auckland regional fuel tax. The people of Northcote want a Government that will truly ease cost of living pressures; the people of Northcote want a Government that will actually end wasteful spending. This bill does both of these, and therefore I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u0022d9e30afbc30d485187ffe3c4930b9dc9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000941\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d9e30afbc30d485187ffe3c4930b9dc9\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. This is an important discussion this evening for people that live in T\u0101maki-makau-rau Auckland, because what we all know is, as our city grows to a population of 2 million people by 2030\u20142 million people by 2030\u2014the way we feel now in congestion compared to the way we\u2019ll feel in 2030, when we\u2019re still in congestion, we\u2019re not moving as a city, and our GDP and contribution to our economy is severely impacted by the decision that we make today. When we talk to Aucklanders, when we talk to any family that is suffering under the cost of living challenges that we experience at the moment, and we talk about tax\u2014and, today, we\u2019re talking about the regional fuel tax\u2014and we say, \u201CDo you want to pay a tax?\u201D, everyone says, \u201CNo.\u201D, right? We don\u2019t want to pay a tax if we don\u2019t have to. At the same time, Aucklanders feel frustrated at the deep congestion that our city faces.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000942\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EWe have discussed this and debated this as a Transport and Infrastructure Committee in the last term. We talked about\u2014agreed on some of\u2014the tools that actually will change the way we get around New Zealand\u2019s largest city of T\u0101maki-makau-rau, what could be used. But while National did campaign on repealing the regional fuel tax, the truth is that under the now National-led Government, Aucklanders will be paying more, and they have had the promise of cost of living relief pulled out from under them. That is the reality. If\u00A0Aucklanders tonight feel confused\u2014because if I thought about this last week compared to this week, I\u2019m quite confused, because, actually, they have absolutely hoodwinked Aucklanders. They\u2019ve pulled the rug out from under them. They\u2019ve made them believe, in an election, that they\u2019re going to save, on average, $2 more a week or $100 a year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EBut this Minister of Transport is one of the most cynical Ministers ever, who is trying to be seen to be giving with one hand but, at the same time, is actually taking with the other. He is adding costs to Aucklanders when he promised cost of living relief. Every member of Parliament from Auckland that sits across that side of the House tonight, you should hang your head in shame, because while you campaigned on one thing, actually, this week, you have done another. Because of them, Aucklanders are facing a drivers\u2019 tax, adding a cost of $50 to Auckland families to register their car per year. Do the maths yourself: where is the cost of living relief? In addition to that, they\u2019re adding 12c a litre to petrol. So when I talk about that they\u2019ve hoodwinked Aucklanders, that is the actual case. They are giving with one hand and they\u2019re taking\u2014ripping off Aucklanders\u2014with the other.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000944\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EThat\u2019s on top of the proposed 23 percent increase to Auckland water rates, because they repealed the one thing that was the game-changer for Aucklanders when it comes to water infrastructure. National\u2019s transport projects are estimated to cost twice the amount that they initially said. That\u2019s a fiscal hole of $24 billion\u2014$24 billion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000945\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EThe reality of people living in Auckland, actually, is when you see the plans, they aren\u2019t there. What the Minister has done with this piece of legislation is pulled the rug out from under Mayor Wayne Brown and his ability to deal with critical transport infrastructure for our city. Where we look for a progressive relationship between central government and local government, this particular bill obstructs that relationship from working. What it says, actually\u2014what it does\u2014is it takes away the localism that our city needs, that, actually, the National Government campaigned on. Auckland Council needs to be fit for purpose, and, yes, I agree there is work to be done around the future of Auckland Transport, but what we can\u2019t do is have a big, three-headed taniwha Government making decisions in isolation. We need a view across Auckland that doesn\u2019t have one single view about investing in roads; it needs to invest in our public transport\u2014another thing that has been taken away from Aucklanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000946\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EWhat I\u2019ve heard this evening, I\u2019m quite saddened by and disappointed. When people take the mickey out of the cost to pedestrian crossings, and put figures out there that they know aren\u2019t accurate, and in our local community\u2014and the member of Northcote talked about pedestrian crossings. The question for him is: which pedestrian crossing or transport project would he take away, because this regional fuel tax has invested in our community, and if he doesn\u2019t know that, then he probably needs to do his research. But the important part is that we actually want to acknowledge we want people to get around efficiently, we want to get out of congestion, we want them to be safe, we want a progressive city that is as productive as it possibly can be. While, actually, we talk about what Aucklanders want, they are struggling with the cost of living, but what they said when Auckland Council commissioned a poll: 44 percent of Aucklanders actually, based on this discussion, wanted to keep the regional fuel tax; 26 percent were in favour of cancelling the regional fuel tax projects\u2014that\u2019s actually not that many. So we know a global city that has a transport infrastructure deficit decades in the making needs investment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000947\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EBut I come back to the point: what this Government campaigned on and what they\u2019re delivering this week does not provide the cost of living relief that Aucklanders were promised. It simply tries to give with one hand, it takes with the other, and it actually doesn\u2019t address the issue at hand. It doesn\u2019t invest in critical transport infrastructure projects. It doesn\u2019t build the relationship with Auckland Council. And there\u2019s a really good question: what is the relationship between Minister Simeon Brown and the Mayor of Auckland, Wayne Brown?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000948\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ad89013e8924b7981b2fc85cccf0784\u0022\u003EHon Simeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Very positive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000949\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228532e959121a422993a74b1f747b3ed8\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: Where does that leave things? I wouldn\u2019t be so confident, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000950\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EBut this Government will ram through this House, as it has done with 16 out of 17\u00A0bills in the last few weeks. It\u2019s made decisions. It\u2019s bypassed the parliamentary process. They cry \u201Cdemocracy\u201D, but when they\u2019re in power, actually, it doesn\u2019t mean nothing. They\u2019ve impacted on M\u0101ori, they\u2019ve taken away health sovereignty, and here, today, they\u2019ve taken the rights of Aucklanders to have better transport infrastructure that they damn well deserve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000951\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa10f4aa01954a45aba5da00506189d9\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Stick to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000952\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e59a89d8030b43ce9f7842ab67aa5595\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: Every member of Parliament\u2014this is absolutely in the bill\u2014in this House should be reading this bill, thinking \u201CI\u2019m going to turn back up to my community and I need to front up and explain how we\u2019re resolving congestion.\u201D, because the plan that the Minister presented this week doesn\u2019t provide a solution to addressing Auckland\u2019s critical problem, which is congestion. Actually, Auckland is the region that simply misses out in that plan. It says to Auckland Council, \u201CI\u2019m going to put you on the side. You find your own funding that\u2019s going to increase rates to Aucklanders.\u201D\u2014just like it has done with water rates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003ESo it comes back to this Government and their absolutely false promise in the election. You haven\u2019t provided cost of living relief to Aucklanders. This piece of legislation, I\u00A0absolutely do not support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022 data-id=\u00228894315e173343628e9f2e03f19ab526\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000954\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228894315e173343628e9f2e03f19ab526\u0022\u003EDr CARLOS CHEUNG (National\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b2823dbf28054b0387d7cce8d6d757cb\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Land Transport Management (Repeal of Regional Fuel Tax) Amendment Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000955\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00225fd03f069f544ecc8eab4cf494285970\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000956\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225fd03f069f544ecc8eab4cf494285970\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for committee stage immediately. I declare the House in committee for consideration of the bill. Members, the time has come for the dinner break. We will suspend the House until 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000957\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6.02 p.m. to 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000958\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ee32a5f37b5c4196a5476c9fdb3b49aa\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220c2bd6d152a84a0a833eae6f85727dfe\u0022\u003EPart 1  Abolition of regional fuel tax\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00220c16951463e54063b62091e81d2b8c40\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c16951463e54063b62091e81d2b8c40\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Land Transport Management (Repeal of Regional Fuel Tax) Amendment Bill. We come first to Part 1. Part 1 is the debate on clauses 3 to 8, \u201CAbolition of regional fuel tax\u201D, and Schedule 1. The question is that Part 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00224845621b3c0349469c6897eecfdfae48\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000961\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224845621b3c0349469c6897eecfdfae48\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. We\u00A0are now in the committee stage of the Land Transport Management (Repeal of Regional Fuel Tax) Amendment Bill. This bill has two parts. Part 1 deals with the purpose of the bill; the repeal of the statutory framework for establishing and operating the regional fuel tax; and it has some transitionary provisions, in particular clauses 6 and 7, which amend the current Auckland regional fuel tax order and reduce the list of capital projects in which revenue from the regional fuel tax scheme can be sent from 14 to three.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EAs has been raised in earlier debates on this bill, it reduces the number of those particular capital projects down to the three that are being prioritised, following discussions with the Mayor of Auckland, which are the Eastern Busway and the Reeves Road Flyover, the Auckland City Rail Link trains and stabling, and local roading improvements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u002244ac17cd26164c09b0dbdf905ae4ae9c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000963\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002244ac17cd26164c09b0dbdf905ae4ae9c\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Kia orana, Madam Chair. Can I thank the Minister for Transport for those opening comments. I have a number of questions that I will be work through and would appreciate the Minister\u2019s attention in terms of addressing those. I take his point around what\u2019s currently proposed in clauses 6 and 7, which relate to a number of projects, and I am aware there\u2019s certainly a few that I would like to ask some questions of the Minister about. I know that many on this side of the Chamber also have some questions around that. I think it\u2019s largely related because of their local knowledge\u2014I\u2019m sure it\u2019s largely related because of their local knowledge in the Auckland area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000964\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EBut if I could start in terms of what is proposed under clause 4 of the bill, which seeks to repeal the framework that is in place that allows for a regional fuel tax (RFT) to be in place. I look at what is currently within Subpart 3 of Part 2 of the Land Transport Management Act 2003, and the proposal under clause 4 is, effectively, to repeal Subpart 3 in its entirety. Within the existing legislation under Subpart 3, there is section 65C, and that relates to the requirements relating to a regional fuel tax scheme. When one looks at subsection (2) of that, there is a time frame of a maximum of 10 years, which is fine. But\u00A0there is also, under subsection (3), the direction that the maximum rate of regional fuel tax is 10c per litre. My question to the Minister in relation to that is whether or not there was any thinking around whether a lower rate, and potentially a rate of zero, could have been applied, and, if so, why that, perhaps, was not an option that has been explored so that there is a framework for some point in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000965\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe other question that I have relates to the same Subpart, and it is section 65J, which relates to the ability of the Minister of Finance and the responsible Minister\u2014in this case, the Minister of Transport\u2014concerning a proposed RFT scheme. But, within that section, there is, obviously, an opportunity to establish or to replace a scheme, but there is also an option to vary an existing regional fuel tax scheme. So my question to the Minister is whether or not\u2014well, there is an option around varying the scheme, so why, perhaps, wasn\u2019t that the particular course of action or avenue that the Minister sought to take?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000966\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EIf I can just now turn to clause 5 of the bill and particularly paragraph (b). This relates to Schedule 1AA of the Land Transport Management Act 2003 and that there would be a new Schedule 1 of the Act, which would be the last part of the Act, and whether or not the necessary consequential amendments have been fully identified, and, if so, where one might find them. I know that there are a number of proposed amendments that followed that are further on in Schedule 3, so we will get to that when we come to that particular point in time. But I did wonder whether there was a particular place where all the other necessary consequential amendments that one assumes falls outside of this Act and might fall in other pieces of legislation, whether they be primary or secondary\u2014whether or not that could be captured.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000967\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve got a number of other questions which I\u2019m happy to continue to work through in terms of my time. The next one is around clause 7, and that relates to Schedule 2 of the Land Transport Management Act 2003. Now, I think it would be helpful for the Minister to outline for the committee what the rationale is in terms of maintaining three of those projects within the bill, and what is the rationale for, effectively, dispensing with all the remaining projects that are outlined in the order. I think that would be helpful because it would set some sort of tone or scene around some of the questions that, certainly, I have about a number of the projects in the order\u2014and the order is the Land Transport Management (Regional Fuel Tax Scheme\u2014Auckland) Order 2018. It does identify a range of projects, and they are quite specific, which I will come to. But, I think, for a start, that might be a good place for the Minister to perhaps consider some of those questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022 data-id=\u0022b25b0f15d3d84c6f96179058b83b426c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000968\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b25b0f15d3d84c6f96179058b83b426c\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE (Labour\u2014Mt Albert):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to follow on from those questions, but I would have actually quite liked the answers to those before I ask these questions, because they may have clarified and it would have deepened the dialogue. However, one of the questions I want to know, and I think most New\u00A0Zealanders\u2014most Aucklanders, definitely, and definitely most people from Mount\u00A0Albert\u2014want to know, is why: why are these ones picked; why not others?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000969\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ESo I would like to know what the process was that you went through to select projects, and you\u2019ve said it was in consultation with the mayor, but one of those projects is obviously really important to the people that live in your area. So there\u2019s an issue of perceived conflict there, and I want to know what was the process that you went through for deciding that those were the projects that were important, and how did you deal with the fact\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000970\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282c42857b8c24d9fb031321d22f49af2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: You ask the Minister because Auckland\u2019s not in my patch and he will have the knowledge.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000971\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226894a781da7547108777ca8c8fd3c0f1\u0022\u003EHELEN WHITE\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, Madam Chair. Yes, you are quite right. What was the process that the Minister went through in deciding how to deal with an issue where, in fact, he works and he is the elected MP in a particular area, and one of those projects is favoured in this situation? A related question is: what was the cost-benefit analysis that was gone through, because my understanding from my previous interaction with the Minister is that that is something that he prides himself on? What was the cost-benefit analysis in deciding that these projects would happen and not others?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000972\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s also a question which won\u2019t surprise him that I am asking about the issue over safety. So one of the big holes in funding is the one that will affect the issues over what he calls speed bumps and I often call raised pedestrian crossings. There was another speech given today in the House which talked about the cost of each death, because as horrible as it feels, there are numbers, often, that people use when they talk about the cost of those deaths in terms of what it does to our society, and obviously I want to acknowledge there\u2019s a much greater loss than any cost when we\u2019re talking about the loss of life or the injury of somebody. But what work was done on that when the decision was made to decide on several different projects and disband with others?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000973\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003EI have a patch which has put a lot of projects that are in the list that won\u2019t be getting funding, and I\u2019ve already raised with the Minister in my speech earlier that I\u2019m concerned about some of the impacts on my local patch that will affect people. So I\u2019m concerned about the impacts around schooling, I\u2019m concerned about the impacts over congestion in those areas, and I\u2019m also concerned\u2014I\u2019ll just note one at this present time: the Carrington Road development. So I can see that that has been suspended, that work around that area. Now, Carrington Road is going to take thousands of houses, and so if you don\u2019t work in that area any more, if the projects are not completed in that area, or the funding is under threat, then that area is one of the areas where intensification can happen without a lot of consequence as long as you make sure that the roads are good and the infrastructure\u2019s good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000974\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225ec01d23-b55e-45b9-a668-d3bf14212126\u0022\u003ESo what happens with that area, for example, and why would that not be given priority by a Government that says it wants intensification, and, in fact, has scrapped a whole lot of rules that meant there\u2019d be more spread of intensification? This is a project that takes so many people, and it\u2019s going to be really important that they feel safe and that the whole area isn\u2019t just totally clogged up. So I know that my constituents will be asking me on Tuesday night at the Mt Albert Residents\u2019 Association meeting what the impact of this is on them in terms of the development. So I would like an answer to those questions and I\u2019d appreciate them\u2014the sooner the better\u2014so I can ask proper follow-up questions of the Minister and this can be a real informative debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u002261a77cf1efc2468b9f257a38236971fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261a77cf1efc2468b9f257a38236971fc\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Look, thank you, Madam Chair, and I thank the members for their questions. Tangi Utikere, he asked about the question of whether any thinking was done about reducing the rate or keeping the framework for the future. The answer to that was: we campaigned on removing the regional fuel tax, and we were elected with a mandate to do that, and this legislation is delivering on that mandate, so we did not consider any other change other than to remove the legislation in its entirety\u2014which is what this is doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000976\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn regards to the question around different projects, the Eastern Busway is under construction, the City Rail Link trains are already under order, and the priority for the Government is to improve our roading network. So those are the three priorities which have been identified for the remaining funding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000977\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn terms of the issue in regards to clause 5(b), it\u2019s a standard Parliamentary Counsel Office wording. It\u2019s there to enable renumbering, should any other bill insert a new part into the transitional provision Schedule at around the same time as this bill. That is the answer to that specific question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022 data-id=\u00222f1f8d3888bf4905b0fbf752e8f54017\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f1f8d3888bf4905b0fbf752e8f54017\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I don\u2019t think I can table my HOP card, but I\u2019d like to come close, as somebody who has caught the bus and the train, has cycled, and has driven in Auckland over the last few months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000979\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022568ce15f219049df98e5aa3f493b8eea\u0022\u003EHon Simeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve got mine too. There it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000980\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8e4d14e2b484dc3a9d94c51b39346ce\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: So just because I come from this area doesn\u2019t mean I\u00A0don\u2019t\u2014oh, we can table another one. Jolly good!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000981\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve got a number of questions for the Minister about the projects in Auckland that will be cancelled because of the decision to remove the regional fuel tax. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000982\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281e6d6d1b4134b1bbab7b4b83cc46b02\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Just a little bit of quiet on this side, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000983\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4bb100b525e4860bc04dabb5eeaa662\u0022\u003EHon Scott Simpson\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we\u2019re just hearing moral high ground speeches. They get responses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273da48771f5a46008cea245b383b31f2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, but I\u2019m struggling to hear the member. Interjections are fine, but not so much condensed interjection all at once.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000985\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278e319d98c2346129779ab9bce472598\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Chair. First of all, does the Minister believe that vehicles running red lights cause injuries to people driving cars, passengers in cars, people on bikes, and people crossing roads? Following on from that, does he believe that red-light cameras reduce the likelihood of drivers playing roulette through a red light? Thirdly, do speeds in residential areas\u2014do higher speeds\u2014increase the severity of injuries, and, if so, how does reducing speed humps address the health and safety of New Zealanders and Aucklanders in particular?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000986\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003EThe next question is: I believe this Government is bringing in congestion charging at some point; why not wait until the congestion charging is ready before removing the regional fuel tax? I accept that congestion charging may be a fairer way of doing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000987\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003EThen, finally, what consultation on the projects that should be dropped was there with health, ambulance, Cycle Auckland, Living Streets Aotearoa, or any of the other knowledgeable organisations? Thank you, Madam Chair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022 data-id=\u00228e727e96066f42d09c46110155b7d0d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000988\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e727e96066f42d09c46110155b7d0d0\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I do want to begin my contribution, given that we are discussing Part 1 of the bill, which basically dismantles the structure for the Auckland regional fuel tax\u2014I do want to focus on the fact that our largest city in New Zealand has needed for quite some time now an integrated, multimodal rapid transit network, an integrated network. That\u2019s really what this particular fuel tax, in terms of what it was going to be contributing to, the projects that it would be contributing to\u2014that is what it was feeding into.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000989\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003ESo, in this part, when we\u2019re talking about dismantling the structure that would contribute to what we believe, on this side of the Chamber, our largest city needs, it is incredibly disappointing, firstly that it\u2019s being dismantled at all given that what we really need is for us to be able to get around in a way that is easier, for us to be able to provide greater access to businesses across Auckland by improving the public transport and other modes of transport across Auckland. We absolutely need to focus on reducing congestion, and we need to lower carbon emissions. Unfortunately, what this bill does is dismantle a structure that was contributing towards progress on all of those fronts. So it is disappointing, firstly, that this is even going through; and, secondly, it is even more disappointing that it\u2019s going through in the way that it is, under urgency, which means that we are here speaking on behalf of people\u2014Aucklanders and others, I would argue\u2014who would be impacted by the changes made in this bill who don\u2019t have a say because all stages are going through under urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000990\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EI know, also, that there have been arguments made over years based on, for example, an OECD report which was back in 2015 that showed that in lost productivity, just due to congestion in Auckland, we have lost productivity to the tune of $1.3 billion. That is an issue. That is a massive issue for us in Auckland but, I would argue, for the entire country as well. That report\u2014again, nine years ago\u2014showed that Auckland and Wellington are the second and third most congested cities in Australasia, following Sydney. So what we really need, again, I would argue, is an integrated, multimodal rapid transit transport network, and this bill flies in the face of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000991\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003ELooking just at the Order in Council, I mean, we know that this will lead to the fact that 14 projects that would have been funded through the Auckland regional fuel tax will now be reduced to three projects. So I, like other colleagues on this side of the Chamber, would like to ask the Minister specific questions, because a number of those\u2014whether it comes to walking and cycling routes\u2014fall into the area that I live in, in Auckland. I\u2019d like some answers about what will replace that, because that\u2019s the other point that I want to make through this. Dismantling the structure actually means that this is yet another step that this Government takes to repeal something with absolutely nothing to replace it with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000992\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019ve got, if you look at the number of projects that will be potentially cancelled\u2014because we know that the Auckland mayor has already asked for a number of these projects to stop. We know, as I mentioned\u2014actually, no, I didn\u2019t mention previously\u2014the cancellation of this tax will leave a shortfall in transport funding for Auckland of $1.2\u00A0billion over the next four years. We know, also, that dismantling this structure and therefore scrapping this tax will mean that Auckland Council\u2019s ability to borrow will be significantly reduced. It will be reduced by $810 million a year. So the mayor has already said that a number of these projects are already put on hold, likely to be scrapped. All we know, given that one of the reasons behind this particular move, according to this Government, was to reduce the cost of living\u2014we know that the other option is to put up rates for Aucklanders, which means an increase in cost of living for Auckland as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000993\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019d really like to know: what is the Minister going to replace a number of these projects with, whether it\u2019s in safety measures or walking and cycling routes? What will replace the dismantling of this particular tax? Because, again, given that the regulatory impact statement has been dispensed with because this is in the Government\u2019s 100-day plan, we don\u2019t actually have an independent analysis of the impact that this will have on the people who will be most affected by the lack of those projects. There\u2019s 11\u00A0projects that will be scrapped as a result of this dismantling of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u002248f583d97a854fab86f02e0e6d3f830b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000994\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248f583d97a854fab86f02e0e6d3f830b\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. This is an important topic for Aucklanders. I stated in my speech my concern of the Minister\u2019s decision today to ram this through in urgency. I believe that it does require consultation with Aucklanders over and beyond an election, because the greater question in front of us is actually: how do we invest in a modern transport infrastructure for a global city that will have a population of 2 million people come 2030? So I suspect that this might be one of a number of questions that I have this evening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000995\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EMy first line of questioning is actually around our relationship with Auckland Council. So part of the original establishment of this was looking collectively with Auckland Council: how we are going to invest in transport infrastructure for Auckland, T\u0101maki-makau-rau? We, of course, have had two mayors over that time that expect different things from Government, and our most recent mayor is very keen not to have Wellington involved in decision making of Auckland. Personally, I believe there\u2019s an in-between there that this piece of legislation actually achieved, which is some sense of partnership.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000996\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003ESo one of my questions for the Minister this evening is about what consultation did he have with Mayor Wayne Brown in regards to this piece of legislation and some of the decisions or decisions of those impacted projects? But, particularly around moving forward, what might be his intention or how he sees that partnership working moving forward, where the impact of this legislation means that there is a significant shortfall for Auckland Council to fund for their future transport infrastructure?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000997\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003ESo, from a relationship perspective, what is the current relationship status with Mayor Wayne Brown and Auckland Council as a result? Has he had discussions with key councillors over this particular piece of legislation? What were their views that informed his decision, both on repealing the regional fuel tax but also the impacted projects and how there became a priority list of the ones that were supported and the ones that weren\u2019t? Have there been recent conversations with the mayor up until today that help guide that particular way forward for the Minister? Because the projects, as I understand, still need to continue, as well as a number of others across the city.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000998\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EBecause I go back to quite a short and sharp media statement from Mayor Wayne Brown, which was straight to the thick of the cut and thrust of this piece of legislation, which is to put on hold 12 transport projects that were believed to be going ahead; that had tagged funding against them; that there was a means to an end to achieve a better transport system and infrastructure across walking and cycling, across active transport, across all modes of transport in Auckland; that created more options available for Aucklanders in that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9000999\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003ESo coming back to my original question, I think it is important that there is a good working relationship between central and local government. I\u2019m concerned in this discussion that that has impacted on this relationship when it comes to achieving the common goal. No matter which party that we\u2019re within, we know that we need to achieve certainty in the infrastructure sector and start to build a pipeline of at least 10\u00A0years, if not more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001000\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EI have been with the Minister at many a conference and a panel where collectively we have talked about how we achieve, politics aside, the certainty for the sector. But\u00A0uncertainty is created for Auckland Council as a result. It\u2019s Auckland Council that is impacted by what will be the dissatisfaction of Aucklanders. I\u2019d like the Minister to explain how he will be supporting Auckland Council with that fallout as a result of the cancelled projects as per Mayor Wayne Brown\u2019s media statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u002286fcd22c9e294d3bb8fef807ed128f56\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002286fcd22c9e294d3bb8fef807ed128f56\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I thank members for their questions. There were a number of questions from Celia Wade-Brown in relation to speed bumps, red-light cameras, and consultation. I mean, ultimately, this bill focuses on the cost of living for New Zealanders, and we are reducing the regional fuel tax to address that issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn terms of the Hon Priyanca Radhakrishnan, she asked how we would replace the dollars. I mean, ultimately, for the rest of those projects which we are not continuing funding for, of course, Auckland Council is able to progress those. If they\u2019re on local roading corridors, they are able to progress those. They just won\u2019t have regional fuel tax funding to support them, and that\u2019s a conversation that the council can have with Auckland ratepayers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe issue in terms of what consultation was had with other organisations\u2014I think that was Celia Wade-Brown again\u2014ultimately, New Zealanders voted for this Government, and we are delivering on our campaign promises.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert asked about consultation with Auckland Council. I spoke to the mayor on a couple of occasions. These are projects that are of joint priority, and so we are ensuring that the remaining funds, of which there are over $300 million, go towards those three priority projects.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u002240868e5130ee4e329930bfc54b395750\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240868e5130ee4e329930bfc54b395750\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Can I firstly thank the Minister for answering a couple of my questions. I am disappointed to hear that the rationale for not looking at sections 65C and 65J is because of the campaign approach, whereas it appears\u2014unless the Minister advises the committee otherwise\u2014that the same outcome for Aucklanders could none the less have been achieved by engaging those two sections of the Land Transport Management Act. But I note his response here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI do think there is still actually an outstanding question that my colleague Helen White referred to, and it does relate to the inclusion of Project 4 in the order. This relates to the Minister\u2019s own electorate, and I do think that the committee does deserve a response around the perception of conflicts of interest, given that the Minister is the member for Pakuranga and this is a project that would obviously be of huge benefit at the expense of other Aucklanders if this was to proceed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI invite the\u2014well, I\u2019m interested in the Minister\u2019s response, and my question to the Minister is whether he still stands by the cost of living argument when the departmental disclosure statement very clearly indicates that in some cases, motorists will be around $1.87 better off a week, and the real difference that that would actually make to entertain the cost of living pressures. Now, in my earlier contribution today, I\u2019d indicated that I\u2019d had a look at what one could get for $1.87 at a supermarket in Auckland, and what you could get is a 227-gram tin of chunky pineapple. Now, is that really addressing the cost of living pressures, as this Minister and his Government actually think? So I invite the Minister to reflect on whether or not that still rings true\u2014that $1.87 a week is going to offset the cost of living pressures that households are facing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThere are 14 projects that are suggested to be either retained or dispensed with under this bill, and each in their own right is going to have a huge impact either way on the communities in Auckland. So it\u2019s certainly our intention on this side of the Chamber to be exploring and asking questions about each and every one of those projects, because that is what we need to do, given this is a bill that is being progressed under urgency. I do think it\u2019s important to make sure that\u2014and the whole point of the committee of the whole House stage; that aside\u2014we look at the clauses as they come, and so I do have a number of questions, which I\u2019ll return to now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ESo the first is in relation to clause 18 within Schedule 1, and it relates to the agency advice. There\u2019s a time frame there that, basically, indicates that the agency would continue to provide the Minister of Finance and the responsible Minister with advice, and that advice is on request. My question for the Minister would be two things: one is the anticipated frequency of that advice that\u2019s being sought and whether the provision in clause 18 is sufficient, and the second is that there are two components as to what that advice must be about. One is in relation to Subpart 3, which I referred to earlier, and there are a number of different sections there that start with definition and that go right through to sort of tax implications, and the other is in relation to\u2014I guess that\u2019s quite broad in the sense of its relation to this scheme as it relates to the Auckland regional fuel tax itself. So my question for the Minister, or the second part of that question, is whether he is able to foreshadow the type of advice that might be sought\u2014if this bill is successful\u2014to transition across from a functioning regional fuel tax to a transitional period. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EMy second question relates to clause 19, and this is something that I\u2019ve raised in the House previously this year. It relates to what the expectation is around the information that is to be retained. I raised this question when the House was considering changes to Te Aka Whai Ora, and my question is relevant to this situation as well because it\u2019s about the requirement for records to be kept and for returns to be made. So my question in relation to clause 19 is about whether there\u2019s an expectation as to what happens to that information once this particular bill is passed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f33438ca60e4f899d0fba5e2d8236e0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Could the member please be specific about clause 19? We\u2019re just trying to locate it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f468b40db90441c9b8f21c5cfcab544\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, certainly. So I am referring to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022185014c8f0d04b60bf50bc91c08fd09c\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair\u2014Madam Chair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bff5706087de4b2ba0b0497d8d427e59\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: And I\u2019m taking Tangi Utikere\u2019s call, thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229cd2979966704e78bd9a143e2f3ae8c0\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair, thank you. This is relation to Schedule 1, and this is the Minister\u2019s proposed new insertion of new Part 5 in Schedule 1AA. It\u2019s headed \u201CPart\u00A05\u201D, and I\u2019m referring to what was originally clause 18, now clause 19. Is that OK? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5537a43249d4f369596cdef75dae24f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Yep\u2014thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a003304eb85a43a392bbf2f5ee3618a8\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: So in relation to the nature of the information, obviously there\u2019s archival use, but what\u2019s happening there\u2014and whether there\u2019s actually a requirement, once that information is filed, that that can be disposed of, or whether there is a requirement for that to be retained, as in other parts of the parent Act, where there is a requirement to retain some information for, I think, four years, or thereabouts. So I\u2019m interested in what the obligation is on those who are filing the returns and whether there is an expectation there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EMy other question is in relation to clause 20, and this is about whether or not there are provisions, or any either flexibility or proposed leeway in the Minister\u2019s mind in approaching this clause, or whether the provision provides for some flexibility around that, particularly around the payment of tax that might be required post-disbursal. So if this bill is successful and this scheme comes to an end, what are the requirements in terms of time frames? I know that they\u2019re listed there, but if there are some extenuating circumstances that might exist from time to time, what provisions exist\u2014or whether the Minister has thought about this and has decided that there doesn\u2019t need to be a provision around flexibility or leeway. I\u2019ve got a number of other questions, but for now I\u2019ll leave it there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u002233cf5d0b77ce48348781b7e45645b035\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002233cf5d0b77ce48348781b7e45645b035\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. There\u2019s a number of good questions there from the member in relation to Schedule 1\u2014clauses 18, 19, and 20. All of this in new Part 5 is about the transition provisions in terms of ensuring that when the regional fuel tax comes to an end, Auckland Council is effectively paid out for all of the revenues that are collected prior to that date and ensuring that there is good reporting on that, and making sure they receive the accurate amount.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn terms of the agency\u2019s advice, in clause 18, all the advice that the New Zealand Transport Agency is required to provide the Minister currently, continues to be provided as the scheme is wound down. That relates to collection, auditing, administrating rebates, transferring net revenue, and monitoring revenue, cost, fuel prices, and volumes. That\u2019s, effectively, what that\u2019s all about. Then, as I said, clause 19 is about making sure the fuel companies are paying the correct amount.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ESo these are transitional provisions. It\u2019s all very sensible\u2014when you\u2019re changing the law and you\u2019re transitioning to a new system, this is all about making sure that there is accuracy in terms of the amounts which have been received, making sure that they are dispersed, and making sure that any people who are entitled to rebates are still able to receive them. Of course, you might have fuelled up on 29 June but you might not process that application until a little bit later, and so you\u2019ll notice that there is also provision there in relation to the rebate scheme as well. So it\u2019s all very sensible stuff, which I\u2019m sure the Opposition is very happy to support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022a28d2a1041a9448d9f4306e622833f8a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a28d2a1041a9448d9f4306e622833f8a\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, this is a brand-new line of questions and I\u2019ve taken some guidance from Speaker Tolley\u2019s ruling encouraging me and speakers like me to keep my contributions focused. So this will be a very focused set of six questions in which I am asking the Minister to engage with me in a series of questions and answers between members and Ministers, following the changes in standing orders which came into effect in 2020 when Speaker Tolley made the ruling at 79/4 of the Speakers\u2019 rulings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe first question is: currently, wholesale fuel distributors pay this portion of tax to NZTA, who recover collection costs and then distribute the revenue to agencies responsible for the projects to be funded by the tax, specifically Auckland Council. Now that the Minister is proposing these changes, how will he make sure that the savings that the bill seeks to provide to Aucklanders are passed on to drivers who would otherwise have been paying 10c extra that would have been collected by wholesale fuel distributors?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EJust to give the Minister a minute to consider my question, I will ask the second one, which is: who will benefit from those savings the most? And that should be read in the context of replacing some of the costs that were raised by the Government from the Auckland fuel tax with the $50 fee increase in drivers\u2019 registrations of their vehicles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMy question here is: have we got this right about who pays for the benefit that people are receiving? Is the benefit being passed on mostly to people who drive great distances and then borne by people who register their car every year? Are we, in fact, passing on costs that would otherwise not have been borne by people like my 90-year-old father who drives his car very little but needs to register it every year, and subsidising those people like me who drive great distances because of their work and to get around Auckland? Those are the first two questions of six.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00221efa2f4159e646ddb8d81138679db97d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221efa2f4159e646ddb8d81138679db97d\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for the questions. In terms of the question around passing on costs, there is a range of regulatory powers that MBIE have in terms of making sure that happens, and it\u2019s very similar to what happened when the last Government reduced the fuel excise\u2014those expectations remain. In terms of who will receive the benefits\u2014people who drive their cars. There will be 10c plus the corresponding 1.5c a litre in GST that will be reduced from people\u2019s fuel bills; they\u2019ll benefit through this saving.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022f4235e7d359742b6a43abd248f3ac71d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f4235e7d359742b6a43abd248f3ac71d\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you so much, Madam Chair. The third question, then, is: what information about pricing will be collected and where will it be collected? Is this an expectation that the Minister has of the wholesale fuel distributors, or is that information that will be collected by the New Zealand Transport Agency? The question here is about how the Minister intends to ensure that those cost savings are, in fact, passed on to consumers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI will ask the fourth question as well, which is in relation to his answer about this benefiting all drivers. Has he had any advice about the impact of the regulation he\u2019s proposing, given that it would seem that it would incentivise drivers to behave in different ways? It passes costs on from drivers who would be driving long distances to drivers who are simply registering the car every year but are not driving those long distances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u0022358674b5684748ef900051e0ff1f5e7c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022358674b5684748ef900051e0ff1f5e7c\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m going to\u00A0begin with a story. It should only take a moment or so, but I am going to ask your\u00A0indulgence for it, Madam Chair, because I then do want to get into a very specific\u00A0question\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258fbbd5d77254769839a79b1e8b0bb2a\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: Is it a funny story?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022711802049d204182be320fa5f787394a\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Well, who knows what you will think? So it will take me about a minute thirty, then I will get to the actual particular point of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThis goes back a long time, when Trevor Mallard was Minister of Education\u2014so I\u2019m afraid, Minister, this might have been before you were born, or perhaps not; it\u2019s hard to tell.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8ae20186052400eaad140cecc7d2a35\u0022\u003EHon Simeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. He was\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228241fd93eaf47c788f74f7fb83f72bc\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Not quite, not quite. OK, but when Trevor Mallard was Minister of Education\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225afef8483cba4fc3af5ac531a672e774\u0022\u003EHon Simeon Brown\u003C/span\u003E: I remember he shut down a lot of schools.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d50c816411b946d9b01a4300edbe53a0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: No interjections from here, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c02ed933a8e24b389b1f6fbfc3f37fc6\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d5d4b6180084eaeb8e67049589a967e\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t bait the Minister, because he\u2019s not allowed to come back at you at that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f979d131d2846b8b89836b46b78a71c\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: There was a process where a lot of country schools were being closed down\u2014small schools with very small roles\u2014and, of course, there was a lot of trouble around that from communities. Communities were concerned about it. But\u00A0one of the things that Trevor Mallard did\u2014or one of his key staffers did\u2014was they went and drove the routes around every single one of the schools that was proposed for closure. So there were some schools which, even though the role had fallen a long way and there was another school perhaps within a few kilometres, were kept open because it was simply too far to ask a small child to travel on a bus or there was a road that was too dangerous to cross over to drop us in a car.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, the point of that is not\u2014well, it was a great thing for Trevor Mallard to do, but he acquired the local knowledge for each change he was making so that he could justify it. He really engaged with the changes that he was making. Now, that leads me to the question I want to ask, because a lot of the changes that are being made\u2014the projects that are being discontinued\u2014are very local, and they might matter only to the local people but they matter a great deal to those local people. There are a number here on this list of projects that I want to ask about. I\u2019m going to start with in Project 8, which is being discontinued, and I want to understand why the Minister felt that this was suitable for discontinuing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThe particular intersection that concerns me on these safety concerns\u2014it was some safety improvements to the intersection of Blockhouse Bay Road and Chalmers Street. Now, Minister, if you drive up along Blockhouse Bay Road\u2014I have a difficult sense of direction sometimes, but Blockhouse Bay Road does run more or less North-South\u2014you\u2019re running, actually, from the Waitemat\u0101 to the M\u0101nukau in a particular place. As\u00A0you\u2019re driving towards the M\u0101nukau, up towards the intersection with Chalmers Street, it\u2019s a very narrow intersection; it carries a lot of traffic. The road engineers have managed to squeeze a turn-right lane in, as well as a straight-through lane, but it\u2019s a four-way intersection. It goes one street at a time, because it is so narrow and so dangerous. As you turn left off Blockhouse Bay Road, it goes into New Windsor Road, where there is a retirement village\u2014actually, it\u2019s a K\u0101inga Ora one\u2014just up on New Windsor Road. Carrying on down through Blockhouse Bay Road, it is quite densely populated. From Chalmers Street, as you turn right into Chalmers Street, it\u2019s down the hill across the train line. So you can see why it\u2019s an intersection that concerns the locals a great deal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EWhat I want to understand is why we\u2019ve lost that safety improvement out of the area in which I live and to what extent, Minister, you took it upon yourself to familiarise yourself with the details of the projects that were being lost and the impacts on the local communities. Now, that is the first of the projects I want to ask about\u2014that intersection of Blockhouse Bay Road and Chalmers Street\u2014and I would appreciate some insight as to why people in my community have lost that safety improvement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u0022951d227ea5ba40e9a27ad683f30d6633\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022951d227ea5ba40e9a27ad683f30d6633\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Chair. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. I just want to make some general comments about the bill, and then some specific questions about this part. I guess one of the overall questions I have for the Minister is whether, in repealing the regional fuel tax, he asked for any advice on the relative compliance costs associated with collecting it as a revenue collection tool, compared to other tools. I know the Government has indicated that they are interested in providing other funding tools to councils, and, specifically for transport projects, tools like congestion pricing. But in the short term, there\u2019s going to be a gap in revenue and then, in order for projects that were on the books in Auckland to continue being funded with a share from the council, it would have to come from some other source\u2014probably rates or those projects simply won\u2019t go ahead. But given that fuel tax is already being collected and the mechanism was in place to collect the regional fuel tax, did the Government give any consideration to the relative value of having something that is administratively simple and already in place to carry on with revenue so that infrastructure can carry on being funded until we have the congestion pricing or other mechanisms in\u00A0place?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThen my second question relates to, in Part 1, clause 7, which talks about the amendments to the Schedule of the projects. What I\u2019m particularly interested in is why the Minister decided to carry on allowing the funding that was sitting there, had been collected from the Auckland regional fuel tax\u2014why is he allowing that to be used on the Eastern Busway, when the money from the regional fuel tax has come from car drivers, and now it\u2019s being put to a public transport project. Why does he think it\u2019s OK in the instance of the Eastern Busway, which is one of the few projects that was on the list of 14 projects to be funded? I\u2019m really interested in the Minister\u2019s answer on this. Does he think it\u2019s fair for people who\u2019ve been driving around Auckland, paying regional fuel tax, that that money be put towards a busway project, and, if so, why is that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022b23170264679441586c79bdd6542cf78\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b23170264679441586c79bdd6542cf78\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Just before I call the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor, I\u2019m just going to say that this is under urgency with no select committee. Part 1 is the substantial part of this bill, and we need to create an opportunity for some people who haven\u2019t asked questions yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u00225d6379d51d1d4c17be54c949983988ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d6379d51d1d4c17be54c949983988ac\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I came to the Chamber late\u2014I had another meeting. I am thankful to be able speak to my amendment. There may be some in the Chamber who say, you know, \u201CDo I care about Auckland?\u201D I do care\u2014particularly because I do travel up there occasionally\u2014because my amendment reinstates Project 8 in the Land Transport Management (Regional Fuel Tax Scheme\u2014Auckland) Order 2018, and it\u2019s to do with road safety.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI have a passion for road safety. As someone\u2014and there\u2019ll be a few members here in the Chamber\u2014who drives 50,000 or 60,000 kilometres a year at least, it\u2019s a lot of time on the road and you fear for what might happen. There are a multitude of dangers out there. It\u2019s one of the most dangerous things that people do: hop in a 1-tonne projectile and drive at 100 kilometres an hour, or something, towards someone else who\u2019s coming the other way. It\u2019s kind of taken for granted. We need to have proper laws and guidelines and protections to ensure that as few people as possible are killed or maimed. I said before: $5 million for every fatal accident.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003ESo my question to the Minister for Transport is: when you are going to exclude capital expenditure of critical safety projects across Auckland, including safer speed limits, rural road safety improvements\u2014something I\u2019m very passionate about\u2014what\u2019s the cost of this long term? If we have one more fatal accident, that\u2019s another $5 million cost to the economy. If he is indeed proposing that the amendments will drive better economic growth, every one of those fatal accidents cost $5 million. So has he done a study, has he got advice, as to what will be the effect of not investing in safer speed limits, rural road safety improvements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EIndeed, it goes over\u2014there are many areas. The Cabinet Expenditure and Regulatory Review Committee addressed high-risk corridors, intersection and speed-related deficiencies on the network. Deficiencies are areas in infrastructure that have been identified as faulty, and this is going to be excluded from funding in Auckland\u2014this is outrageous. We have a health and safety regime in this country that says if you identify a risk, you have a legal obligation to do something about that. Yet the Minister\u2014and the question is for him: how can he walk away from this legal obligation to do everything in his power, and to work with Auckland Council, to reduce the risks that might result in deaths and injuries? Because if it was a workplace, and, indeed, as Minister of Transport, it is your workplace, Minister\u2014how are you going to explain to the families of the people who are killed on rural roads because of insufficient infrastructure? How are you going to explain your legal position? Because if you were an employer or you were overseeing\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afe014d7a2d748a4894108bdd39c8ace\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Please don\u2019t use the word \u201Cyou\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022248693e1eef24a0a97ccf621565056c6\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, sorry, Madam Chair. If the Minister was the employer or was the pick\u2014I can\u2019t remember the technical term for it in Health and Safety\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aca2ed5238c04fab960ee1f57a0117bc\u0022\u003ERachel Boyack\u003C/span\u003E: PCBU.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1dce00c5d0c4fd29e05225e639f877c\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014PCBU (person conducting a business or undertaking)\u2014then the Minister would be liable. So this is excluding investment in areas of road safety, and if it was health and safety, there would be an outrage. So Minister, maybe you can explain how you can justify that\u2014the urban road safety programme as well will be excluded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThen, you go over to the area that I\u2019m not familiar with\u2014because it itemises the particular areas, and my colleagues will point to those\u2014but funding will be applied or will be excluded to signage related to speed limit changes. Now, I\u2019ve had the occasional speeding fine. Sometimes, it\u2019s because I don\u2019t know what the speed limit is. But there are many, many angry people around the country now who are getting pinged. The Minister says there\u2019s going to be more police out there on the road\u2014that\u2019s fine, that will contribute to better road safety. But if they haven\u2019t had the signage to know what the speed limit is\u2014and there are numerous examples across the country, particularly rural areas, and they\u2019ll be the same around Auckland. \u201CWhat was that last sign I had? What\u2019s the speed limit now? Is it 60 or 70 or 80?\u201D Indeed, there\u2019s an ability now for the council to set variable speed limits. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EIf people are going to be prosecuted because there\u2019s not been an investment and the Minister\u2019s legislation has prevented investment in speed signs, that is outrageous. You\u00A0will see\u2014no, the Minister will see\u2014the reaction, the Government will, from the people who live in rural Auckland and those who live in urban\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022979051d00c3b40f8ac6febcb3641ab7f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb40cd9428cc4e00a1f350da3269b9ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb40cd9428cc4e00a1f350da3269b9ea\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to the members for their questions. There has been a range of questions raised in regards to various projects, and I note there\u2019s a number of tabled amendments as well, and I note the honourable member who\u2019s just sat down has raised a tabled amendment in regard to a particular one. There is around $340\u00A0million of unspent regional fuel tax revenue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn discussions with the Mayor of Auckland, the priority projects are those main ones, which are the City Rail Link trains and stabling, which is critically important around the City Rail Link; the Eastern Busway and Reeves Road flyover, which is under construction; and local roading improvements. Those are the priorities that we both have agreed, and that is what this legislation is putting in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn relation to the honourable member Damien O\u2019Connor, who\u2019s just sat down, he raises a tabled amendment where he seeks to change clause 7, which, effectively, revokes\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5167573771d48f4811207454e45a9c8\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: To reinstate clause 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba70dac4e8e74f269644a2b82e6ef489\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, so he wants to reinstate clause 8, which is in relation to road safety, which he\u2019s just articulated his reasons for that. I\u2019m not sure if he\u2019s had a conversation with his colleague Camilla Belich, because she has an identical tabled amendment where she doesn\u2019t want to reinstate the road safety one but wants to reinstate active transport instead. So there seems to be some inconsistency in terms of some of these tabled amendments coming through from the Opposition members. I note there\u2019s a range of other tabled amendments which seek to reinstate others. As we\u2019ve outlined, we have already identified the three projects that we are going to require the remaining funding to go towards. We\u2019ve been very clear about that. This is legislating that. In terms of all of those tabled amendments, we won\u2019t be supporting them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022232304f24bf746628a8c744deed4d1f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022232304f24bf746628a8c744deed4d1f5\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Well, thank you, Madam Chair, for the opportunity to speak on this bill as it goes through its committee stage. I did want to speak to some of the amendments that I have put forward, and thank you, Minister, for looking at them in advance of this contribution. I can just assure the Minister that on this side of the Chamber we have had conversations with each other about this bill, and many of the amendments that we seek to table\u2014and we would appreciate the Minister\u2019s support in relation to some of these amendments\u2014look at the value of the different projects which will not be undertaken as a result of the passage of this bill, and are really looking for the committee and the Minister\u2019s support in debating the merits of those projects and seeking, perhaps, a reversal in the decision to exclude them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo I don\u2019t think it\u2019s inconsistent to say that my colleague the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor wants to retain safety in relation to road safety issues. While my amendments address other issues, either of those amendments would be an improvement on the bill that the Minister has put before the committee, and what we\u2019re asking the Minister to do is really to consider them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo I do have two amendments, and I\u2019ll try and speak to both of them but I will try and seek another call if I don\u2019t have time to speak to both. The first one is in relation to clause 7, which is in Part 1, which we\u2019re currently looking at, and I\u2019ve got two amendments to clause 7. The first one is given the letter \u201CN\u201D and is in relation to a particular section which the Minister has already referred to, but it goes through the different projects which were to be covered. The one that I want to specifically talk about first is N, and that looks at Project 2, which is the central city bus infrastructure\u2014essentially, the Land Transport Management Act, from which the regional fuel tax funded a number of things within the central city in relation to bus infrastructure and bus improvements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EAs someone who lives in Auckland, and I know the member does as well, we\u2019ll both be well aware of the importance of buses. Travelling by bus is one of the major public transportation ways that are utilised within our city. Of course, we\u2019ve looked previously and there\u2019s been a lot of discussion in the earlier readings around rail, but at the moment, buses fulfil a very important role in relation to public transport.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo just for those who are wondering about the purpose of the amendment that I\u2019ve put forward\u2014and I\u2019m interested to know whether the Minister would support this\u2014the project which is not going to go ahead is capital expenditure for downtown bus infrastructure, including a bus interchange in Lower Albert Street for the North Shore and western buses, a bus interchange in the Wynyard Quarter, a bus interchange in the Beach Road area, bus priority improvements, also capital expenditure for bus infrastructure in the city centre, also including bus priority improvements for passenger facilities, including bus stops and bus shelters on Wellesley St and Grafton Road, and a new learning quarter for the Grafton Gully bus interchange. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo a significant amount of work in relation to making buses more accessible and more easily utilised by Aucklanders, and so my amendment to clause 7 would be to delete the words \u201C1 to 3\u201D and replace them with \u201C1 and 3\u201D, so, essentially, keeping and maintaining project two as listed in the schedule which is due to be repealed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo I think those are really important aspects of public transportation that would have been funded by the regional fuel tax, which are now no longer going to be funded. I would like to know from the Minister, firstly, would he support the amendment that I have put in place? If not, what can Aucklanders expect in relation to his plans for public transportation and also for bus infrastructure, specifically in the areas which I mentioned, which will now no longer be served as a result of this bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00220838222ab3be483c9c27dc6b056b6537\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220838222ab3be483c9c27dc6b056b6537\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Well, as I said earlier, the Government has outlined which of these projects we\u2019re supporting. We\u2019ve put that forward into the bill as it stands before the committee. There\u2019s a range of tabled amendments which seek to\u2014through various ways\u2014reinsert others of those projects and, as I\u2019ve outlined, the Government will not be supporting any of those tabled amendments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022 data-id=\u00228ab7d8a605184e2bb0f3a3ad2e0aae0c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ab7d8a605184e2bb0f3a3ad2e0aae0c\u0022\u003ELEMAUGA LYDIA SOSENE (Labour\u2014M\u0101ngere):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u00A0really appreciate being selected to take a call and make a contribution. I want to speak to my amendment, which is under clause 7, and it says to delete the words \u201C1 to 3\u201D and replace with \u201C1 to 2\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EI want to highlight to the Minister that I am the member for M\u0101ngere, where the international airport is and where the domestic airport is, and I\u2019m sure many of the colleagues across the Chamber\u2014particularly on this side\u2014come from Auckland and know the area well. Minister, I\u2019m not sure if you know of the projects that are happening locally. So there has been a strong focus in terms of road safety, and the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor spoke about why it is important to have intervention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EThe repeal of the regional fuel tax heavily impacts on the continual delivery that the people in M\u0101ngere have seen. There has been a strong focus on pedestrian safety, on cycleways delivery, on serving the people of M\u0101ngere, which has actually served people of Greater Auckland and South Auckland because M\u0101ngere does not want to be an island where there\u2019s congestion and continual roadblocks and continual cone city.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EI wanted to highlight the project, Minister, in terms of the trends and what we have found with this project\u2014local transport project called Te Ara Mua - Future Streets\u2014and the success of that specific project has benefited because the funding has remained not just from central government but also from Auckland Council and the local community. That specific transport project has made the streets around M\u0101ngere centre, around our main precinct, safer by increasing the visibility and especially for our walking and our cycling community. So in M\u0101ngere\u2014I\u2019m just going to highlight very quickly in my time that a number of main streets in M\u0101ngere were like highways. They were not safe; not safe for families, not safe for our kaum\u0101tua who have to walk aided, and also too we have a disability community. This specific project has allowed the streets to be redesigned and we have local roads that have reduced traffic for up to 30 percent\u2014and that has been measured, Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, I just want to ask some quick questions with regards to my amendment because it\u2019s important that airport access is in the suite of options\u2014and I know the Minister has highlighted, and thank you Minister: you have highlighted what is going to be kept in terms of local road improvements. I want to really emphasise and put on record that suburbs around the Auckland International Airport, if there is not that continual funding, are going to continue to be gridlocked and you can sit on a on a busy street in M\u0101ngere trying to get into the airport.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, I wanted to highlight to you that we actually have the statistical data that has benefited from the funding of the regional fuel tax because Auckland Council has seen that the investment, the local transport investment, has not only benefited the local community but everybody using the airport in and out and even on the Pauanui interchange. I want to highlight also for the Minister that when you have a community who has not been served well in terms of transport infrastructure and to have that behaviour changed because you\u2019ve got better public access on public transport, people are more confident in walking local streets; it\u2019s a healthier option. The repeal of this regional fuel tax does not benefit lower socio-economic communities like M\u0101ngere and others in South Auckland. What we do know is that when communities like ours benefit, then the whole of Auckland benefits as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003ESo, Minister, my question is: will you, in terms of the local road improvements, continue to engage; continue to consult the communities through your officials? Because we have benefited\u2014we are a community that you can see the benefits are not just for old people, not just for community, but especially our young people who are in a modern age and I\u2019d like to put that question to you. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022ebe5ac8d842242f58b5164c903bf0b68\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ebe5ac8d842242f58b5164c903bf0b68\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m going to take a call from Arena Williams because I know that you indicated before that there are some more questions. What I want from here on in\u2014and we are in the urgency and we are making allowances for that. The\u00A0Minister\u2019s made it very clear that he\u2019s chosen three projects and that others will not be part of. So I understand the local passion for those projects, but really looking for questions now around the technicality of what\u2019s actually happening with the repeal of the bill. So I welcome Arena Williams to ask her other questions that she hasn\u2019t asked yet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed3d4790a58641dbaac9443e76ed27b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed3d4790a58641dbaac9443e76ed27b6\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. And I was going to bring the committee\u2019s attention to the Speaker\u2019s ruling at 79/4 about this interchange, because it is something that aids in the debate. I have asked focused questions about the impact on consumers of this bill, which seeks to lower their costs. The purpose of the bill is to provide cost of living relief for Aucklanders. So it is very relevant to the committee in the committee of the whole House stage to understand how these savings will be passed on to consumers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo to follow up my four questions of six which I have asked the Minister, I haven\u2019t heard an answer to questions three and four. Question four, which has not yet been addressed, is: what information about price will be collected? The next question, had that been answered, that I would have asked, is: given that information\u2019s being collected, which agency is responsible for it? Is it the New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA); is it the wholesale fuel distributors themselves who would have otherwise paid that levy? That\u2019s relevant because this committee needs to understand who, within the system, is responsible for ensuring that the information is collected, so that the Minister can then be assured that consumers are enjoying the benefit of his bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe Minister, I heard before, remarked that this is the same sort of regime as Labour\u2019s when it introduced its fuel tax savings. The difference here, and what I\u2019m trying to get to with these questions, is that that was only ever a temporary cost of living relief. This bill introduces a permanent change to the regime and, in fact, removes all of the Government\u2019s taxing powers for cents per litre charge for fuel that can be used for local government transport projects that otherwise may not be fully funded. So the question here is how does this new regime, which is a long-term regime, ensure that consumers enjoy the benefits of this change? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMy final question for the Minister is what the impact of the wholesale fuel distributors not paying that tax to NZTA would be on Auckland Council. Because we have heard in a number of contributions in these questions specifically about the issue of whether an increase of rates will be used to fund these specific projects\u2014that\u2019s not my question. I\u00A0want to hear the Minister\u2019s explanation about the impact on borrowing for Auckland Council\u2019s books. Auckland Council is subject to a cap on the amount of money it can borrow. So because those wholesale fuel distributors will not be paying this tax to NZTA, it would be useful for this committee to appreciate how that will impact on the borrowing levels of Auckland Council; whether the Minister has considered any alternatives like lifting the cap of Auckland Council\u2019s borrowing; or whether one of the ideas that the Minister discussed on the campaign trail of time user charges, otherwise known as motorway tolls, is something that he is considering to alleviate the pressure on Auckland Council\u2019s books.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u00224138fe1431cc494b9fc74cc20deff50e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224138fe1431cc494b9fc74cc20deff50e\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. Thank you, Madam Chair. I just wanted to make clear\u2014you made some observations about the nature of the debate. I think you mentioned, in passing, Speaker\u2019s ruling 125/8, noting that we are in urgency and there\u2019s no select committee, which perhaps expands the scope of the debate, because, of course, submitters haven\u2019t had a chance to express their views about how it affects them and impacts them particularly, of course, in Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EAlso, Speaker\u2019s ruling 124/5, which\u2014although it mentions the nuts and bolts of a bill\u2014also talks about whether the bill effectively implements the policy which it sets out to do. Obviously, members are identifying facts on the ground in terms of how that fits with the policy of the bill. So I just wouldn\u2019t want members on this side of the Chamber to truncate their debate unnecessarily on the basis that you seem to say it should be a kind of technical\u2014in other words \u201Cworking\u201D\u2014debate, rather than how the bill actually implements the policies it\u2019s intended to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd9576d5f3d64edc8e8f20462134bfb8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, look, I understand the point that the member is making within the point of order, and I think if there are specific things around a project that relate to what\u2019s happening in the bill, then that\u2019s a fair question, rather than we don\u2019t want to be up talking all night about projects that the Minister\u2019s clearly said he\u2019s not going to do, other than things that relate to the bill around safety\u2014we\u2019ve heard of\u2014and various other things, which I think then the Minister would be required to at least listen to the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb4f8e79e81643418882483874de9359\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order. I do want to emphasise that this is a matter which Aucklanders are particularly concerned about, and the voice of people coming to select committee, which would be\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d139f36e9dae4532adb03ad9d8fd658d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, OK. I get the point. I\u2019m not ruling out people mentioning their projects; all I\u2019m saying is can we home in when we\u2019re speaking about points that relate back to the bill. I\u2019m not going to sit anyone down for mentioning a project; I just want to know how it relates to their question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u002229d65a6e514f48cbbe8ef59ee6d0863a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002229d65a6e514f48cbbe8ef59ee6d0863a\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u00A0know there are members opposite seeking a call. I would hope that they would share with the committee their views. I look forward to hearing from Andy Foster, the chair of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee. That would be if this was in front of a select committee considering this, along with Grant McCallum and Tom Rutherford. But it seems that only other members of that select committee are contributing tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI do want to thank colleagues on this side who have shared their local passion for some of the projects, because I do think\u2014and I hope that the Minister accepts this and perhaps that\u2019s a question to the Minister: does the Minister accept that local members of Parliament, who obviously have a very clear and distinct connection to many of these projects, are firstly entitled to raise the concerns, and that those concerns are not simply set aside, because the Minister\u2019s response is that he\u2019s decided on the three. In actual fact, he\u2019s already pointed out a couple of Amendment Papers in the name of the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor and also my colleague Camilla Belich. I think there might be a suggestion, maybe from the Minister, that instead of isolating each of those, perhaps we could just put them all back in. I think he would find favour on this side of the Chamber if that was what he was referring to. Perhaps he could clarify that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI have a number of Amendment Papers in my name that I would like the opportunity to address. They are distinctly different. Before I move to that, though, there are still a number of outstanding clauses within Part 1 that have yet to be addressed, and I do have questions about them, so I will turn those to the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe first in this call is in relation to clause 22, and that is still within the proposed new Part 5 inserted into Schedule 1AA\u2014and this relates to the \u201CDisbursement of proceeds\u201D. When one looks at what is contained in subclause (1), it refers to \u201CTop-up funding\u201D, and there\u2019s a specific word that\u2019s used there, which is in relation to \u201Cthe payment of scheme administration or winding-up costs,\u201D. It says that \u201Cit may require the Auckland Council to pay it an amount or amounts from the Auckland RFT reserve fund to fund those payments.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ENow, my question for the Minister is: is that a discretion that rests with the agency, in which case there is perhaps no consultation with Auckland Council as to what its requirements or its role might be in terms of that final sentence there within the clause, or is the use of the word \u201Cmay\u201D more of a two-way transactional conversation? This relates, actually, to an earlier point that my colleague Shanan Halbert made about the level of consultation that had taken place between the Mayor of Auckland and the Minister. So\u00A0my question is around where that discretion lies. Does it sit purely with the agency, or is there an expectation that it\u2019s a one-way relationship in this regard. Now, I note that this is in relation to transitional provisions, but, none the less, it is important that that is understood.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EMy other question relates to clause 23, and this is in relation to the \u201Creserve fund\u201D. So\u00A0clause 23(1) talks about the fact that \u201CThe Auckland Council must continue to operate \u2026 [this] fund under \u2026 [a parent section] until it is spent.\u201D Now, my question to the Minister is: is there any incentive or disincentive for the spending of those moneys? Because it could be that the money could just sit there for\u2014well, the question is: what period of time? It\u2019s unspecified. Is it tied in with the date that other provisions within this bill would come into place? But, then again, these are provisions that are transitional, and so I\u2019d appreciate the clarity around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe other is also in relation to subclause (2)(b) under that clause, and this ties in with projects\u2014specifically, four, six, and 12. If those projects were to be delayed, what would be the impact in relation to how the reserve fund may be accessed or not? So, in essence, is the spending of the moneys for projects four, six, and 12 time bound; if so, could the Minister please point to the time-bound provision within clause 23, and, if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022 data-id=\u00221f6beba3c7574b7f986cb7b737934b5d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f6beba3c7574b7f986cb7b737934b5d\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. It\u2019s a wonderful thing to be able to take a call for the first time on the repeal of the regional fuel tax bill. As you know, I come from \u014Ctepoti\u2014Dunedin\u2014and the Dunedin City Council has a zero-carbon target by 2030, and in that they aim to change modality in transport. I\u2019ve noticed here that removing the legislative framework for imposing regional taxes will provide certainty to households and businesses that no regional fuel taxes will be implemented by any other region. Now, this is a real concern for our community\u2014for local authorities nationally\u2014because the fuel tax has been an inspiration for other urban areas to make change to deliver for their communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EIf I think about the shifts that the Dunedin City Council said, they want three main themes to cover how Dunedin\u2019s transport emissions can be reduced in three main ways: by supporting people to live well locally, by enabling businesses and people to shift to low-carbon transport modes, and by improving the vehicle fleet. There are eight key shifts that they talk about: nurture low-emission urban form; target closer destinations, encourage closer destinations, and inspire longer stays; unlock remote solutions; develop convenient and attractive cycling and walking networks and public transport services; boost transport demand management and support use of active and public modes; shift freight to low-emission modes; electrify light vehicles\u2014ah, yeah, that\u2019s right, we\u2019ve got rid of the low-emissions fee\u2014and decarbonise heavy vehicles, marine, and aviation. So\u00A0if we think about what a regional fuel tax could do for urban areas that are taking their own work\u2014we know this Government doesn\u2019t care, we know this Government wants to destroy the environment, but there are cities who are working to decarbonise. There are cities and urban areas that are trying to do their best, and there are rural hinterlands that also want to do their best and have the option to do so, or had the option to do so, taking the example of the T\u0101maki-makau-rau fuel tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003ENow, this is a fuel tax that has enabled public transport, it\u2019s enabled walkable streets, it\u2019s given the potential for light rail\u2014and I can\u2019t understand why anyone would want to stomp on local initiatives, on city initiatives, to do well by their communities. Why would central government seek to destroy localism? Why would central government seek to destroy localism when it can provide for their communities, when it can provide climate safe communities? This is something that should not be thrown out. This is something that is actually really important. And what this bill does is disincentivise and give the middle finger to every other local jurisdiction around the country, to say: \u201CWe don\u2019t care. We\u2019re too entitled to let you choose.\u201D That\u2019s essentially what it says.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EI am embarrassed to be in a Parliament that allows something to happen like this. This\u00A0is just a shocking, shocking indictment of the climate denialism that we face across the aisle. It\u2019s a shocking indictment of the desire for Rapture\u2014you want to head there in an SUV, but this isn\u2019t going to happen. We need to be looking for solutions, and unfortunately the Minister doesn\u2019t appear to see what\u2019s in front of his eyes, which is a community\u2014a community of local government who want this type of solution and have been arguing for it for ever and a day, only being overridden by a Government that does not care.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022fcdeb1f148eb4977800ca7a26aacf5d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fcdeb1f148eb4977800ca7a26aacf5d8\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for his question, which asked, effectively, why regional fuel taxes can\u2019t also be applied elsewhere. Our Government doesn\u2019t support regional fuel taxes. We\u2019re repealing the legislation, as I\u2019ve already told the committee, and so we are repealing it through this\u00A0legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn relation to other questions from members in the Labour Party regarding projects in their areas, as we\u2019ve outlined, this bill prioritises the three particular projects listed and requires the remaining funds to go towards those, and we\u2019re not supporting any of the other amendments that have been put forward. There were a number of questions from Tangi Utikere in terms of the disbursement. This is in relation to the funds that may be required for the council to pay this. The agency may request extra costs be recovered. Effectively, that is to do with the funds being used in relation to the rebates and ensuring that there are funds available for those rebates. That\u2019s my understanding of the purpose of that particular provision, and also to cover the cost of the scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn regards to clause 23, any incentive or disincentive to spend it, the legislation doesn\u2019t make the spend time-bound, because obviously some of those projects are going to take two to three years, so there\u2019s going to be no time-bounds on them. Ultimately, the council is motivated to complete them, and at the completion of it, once the funding is spent, then, of course, it\u2019s spent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u002259928918d82343bea0433720b465f4ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002259928918d82343bea0433720b465f4ba\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. This will be my second line of questioning. I haven\u2019t received responses to my key questions at the start. The\u00A0Minister of Transport acknowledged that he had met with Mayor Wayne Brown, but my question was actually framed around what the current state of the relationship is and the impact of this piece of legislation. What were the views of the mayor and councillors on this piece of legislation to inform those decisions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5634cc5b51d475689d7026d8c5ea86f\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t think that the Minister\u2019s responsible for the views of the mayor. The questions are to the Minister\u2019s actions, not somebody else\u2019s.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022067ddf828c6044d3b4a70e6f6ebaaa87\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: Sure. The reason I\u2019m asking that question, Madam Chair, is because I\u2019m interested in what advice the Minister took on board given the absence of a submission period from Aucklanders, from the mayor, and from councillors. Usually, in select committee, we would have the opportunity to hear directly from them; we don\u2019t have that in this instance, hence the question to the Minister. I\u2019d really appreciate just a bit of an update of that state of that relationship and how he intends to move forward in working on transport infrastructure with Auckland Council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EThe second question I want to move to is around the relationship with Auckland Transport and how they might have been involved in his decision making. What was their advice that they gave the Minister, and which particular parts may he have considered in that? Did he meet with Dean Kimpton, the CEO, and what was Dean\u2019s advice to the Minister, and is there follow-up to address the cancellation of projects and the hole that it leaves in in transport infrastructure in T\u0101maki-makau-rau Auckland?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003ELastly, in this line of questioning, I wanted to drill down back into\u2014somebody touched on the road safety point, but I wanted to come back to, particularly, safety for our tamariki around schools and pedestrian crossings. I respect the Minister, and I have enjoyed working with him in the transport space over the past few years, but I have openly called him cynical today in our speeches, on the basis that he has doubled down on pedestrian crossings in this particular discussion. I\u2019m seeking an explanation from the Minister, because children\u2019s safety, road safety, is a very important part of the decision that this legislation is making, and in my community we have very good examples where pedestrian crossings have been very effective: outside Birkdale Primary, Beach Haven Primary, Northcote Intermediate. While the construction of those were quite disruptive, actually, it prevents any of our tamariki being hit by cars or being seriously injured as a\u00A0result.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EThe question I had for the Minister is: in his second reading speech and first reading speech he continued to mention the amount of $500,000 as a cost for pedestrian crossings. Part of his rationale in this legislation change is that he wants to get more bang for buck, and that\u2019s fine. I just wonder which example he might be referring to in that cost of $500,000, what other examples of more cost-effective pedestrian crossings he may have looked at, and what were those costings and which projects may he have completed site visits to. I appreciate that these might be part of the cancellation of prospective projects\u2014but it\u2019s an important part, just to understand where the Minister\u2019s thinking is in his decision when prioritising key parts. I accept, partially, that, you know, he\u2019s called a halt to the regional fuel tax; that there\u2019s only a certain amount of money left, but when we come to how do we actually decide on how we spend that, I\u2019m not clear on how the Minister has gone through that decision-making process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EMy questions regarding pedestrian crossings are actually because, from what I\u2019ve heard from the Minister, I worry that he has unfairly looked at those and used a poor example from the New Zealand Herald that has been withdrawn. So I do want to understand what his view actually is on that and what examples he might have looked at out in either my community or out in other communities, because from my understanding, not all pedestrian crossings are at $500,000. Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022af7b1e9165f34aaba875e58b7c4216c1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af7b1e9165f34aaba875e58b7c4216c1\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E The number of questions there from Shanan Halbert asking me for my views, of the mayor\u2019s views, and in relation to the views of Auckland Transport, etc., etc. I mean, ultimately, as I\u2019ve outlined on a number of occasions, we took this policy to the election; Aucklanders voted for it\u2014in fact, I think Auckland voted 57 percent for the coalition Government\u2014and now we are delivering on that promise with this legislation. The bill, I think, outlines all of those various elements of how we are repealing it, what projects are remaining, and so I don\u2019t think those questions are particularly in relation to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EArena Williams asked earlier around the issue around the fuel companies passing on the cost. The answer to those questions is that, ultimately, the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment is responsible for the regular monitoring of importer margins on fuel. They will be doing what they did when the last Government reduced fuel excise, I think two years ago, and we\u2019ll be making sure they\u2019re monitoring that in exactly the same way to ensure that the reduction in the fuel excise is passed on to motorists.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022 data-id=\u002204106df306a942268512872c726549f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204106df306a942268512872c726549f8\u0022\u003EHon JENNY SALESA (Labour\u2014Panmure-\u014Ct\u0101huhu):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair, e te M\u0101ngai o te Whare. I have a few questions for the Minister on the Land Transport Management (Repeal of Regional Fuel Tax) Amendment Bill, Part 1, particularly on clause 4 and clause 5. My first question is: how will the Minister ensure that the abolition of the regional fuel tax does not adversely affect the funding of current and future transport projects in Auckland, especially those that are critical to reducing and improving the public transportation system? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EMy second question is: can the Minister explain how the alternative funding mechanisms he proposes will replace the revenue previously generated under the regional fuel tax and how will these be implemented to ensure the continuity of long-term transport infrastructure in T\u0101maki-makau-rau Auckland?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EMy third question: can the Minister detail the transitional provisions that will be put in place to manage the wind-up process of the current scheme to ensure a minimal disruption to all ongoing and planned projects in T\u0101maki-makau-rau Auckland?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EMy fourth question, and this is in terms of clause 5, particularly the savings provisions of clause 5: how will the Minister ensure that the savings provisions protect the already committed funds and projects that were to be financed by the regional fuel tax and what measures will he put in place to ensure that these projects are completed as planned?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d14b1afe-2069-41e4-96fa-c8dc81a991a4\u0022\u003EAnd my final question\u2014this time\u2014number five: what legislative and regulatory changes will be required to effectively wind up the regional fuel tax scheme and what is the time line for these changes? Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022894c2138089643af965dd90ef2f44dd1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022894c2138089643af965dd90ef2f44dd1\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Again, thank you for some of the questions that were asked in relation to projects\u2014I\u2019ve answered in prior questions and answers. In relation to specific projects, we\u2019ve been very clear about the ones that we will be requiring the remaining funding to be going towards, and this legislation and schedules deal with how exactly that will happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn terms of the winding up of the scheme, this legislation effectively requires, from the time of Royal assent\u2014we\u2019ll get to that debate later\u2014that the funds are required to be spent on these particular projects and then on 30 June that is when the tax ends.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022 data-id=\u0022e1350d9b027c4cffa23b41733bb0207d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229fa4845f-2fb3-4c2c-828a-40a363d3a159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e1350d9b027c4cffa23b41733bb0207d\u0022\u003ECELIA WADE-BROWN (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I do have some further questions for the Minister of Transport. Given that he was not interested in responding about either the increased personal costs of injury and death nor the cost to the Government of increased health, I will focus on the very immediate cost of living question. The median distance of travel to school in metro urban authorities is just over 2\u00A0kilometres. Is it cheaper for a family, let\u2019s say with two children, to encourage their children to walk to school or to have to buy a second car to drive them there? Is it cheaper to have cycle lanes and footpaths or to increase the health budget? And is it cheaper to catch a bus or to drive and pay for parking in T\u0101maki-makau-rau?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022648564f4a4584de699bbc75454c48fa1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022648564f4a4584de699bbc75454c48fa1\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Look, I think there\u2019s a range of questions in relation to a range of transport policies. I mean, ultimately what we\u2019re doing here is removing the Auckland regional fuel tax, which removes 10c a litre plus GST off the cost of fuel in Auckland. That is what this Government does. That\u2019s what the legislation does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022c45e88176f1a4e3a99b67b25a48200d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c45e88176f1a4e3a99b67b25a48200d3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I call\u2014I\u2019m just checking to see who has taken the call\u2014the Hon Deborah Russell.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022 data-id=\u00223a0ff2d7a9bd4258b88e13fe53310675\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a0ff2d7a9bd4258b88e13fe53310675\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m very grateful to have only my second call on this bill. I want to go to clause 7 to discuss some of the things that would probably have been discussed in a select committee process, had we been able to have one. I know we\u2019re doing this under urgency, but the fact that it\u2019s under urgency doesn\u2019t mean we shouldn\u2019t examine this as thoroughly as we can in the committee stage. I don\u2019t think it was the choice of this side of the Chamber to go into urgency, so\u2014consequences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI just want to take one issue with the Minister. One of the things that the Minister says is \u201CWe won the election.\u201D and so on, and \u201CTherefore, we don\u2019t need to discuss.\u201D Indeed, that is quite clear, but that doesn\u2019t mean that the Government is still not responsible for discussing these matters. Just saying that repeatedly, when we are raising concerns from our local communities, kind of does amount to going \u201CNyah nyah na-nyah nyah!\u201D, so it would be helpful if we got some responses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EHaving said all that, I do want to go to a very specific project which is missing from my area, and it matters. So it relates to project 13; it\u2019s one of the items in clause 7, where we\u2019ve got Schedule 2 being amended, and Project 13 is now taken out. That\u2019s a real shame, because it was about improving the capability of the network, and the particular set of projects I was interested in is the one around dynamic lanes, which is really interesting\u2014dynamic traffic lanes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003ENow, I have a good friend who lives out in Whangapar\u0101oa, out on Vipond Road out there. So I go and visit him every now and again, and there\u2019s a really fantastic dynamic lane there, and it works really well to ensure that we\u2019ve got effective traffic flows, that the road is being used to capacity, so two lanes out in the morning, then it gets swapped over and you get two lanes back in in the evening with the dynamic lane.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EProject 13 has dynamic lanes included, and there were to be dynamic lanes along Great North Road and around Patiki Road and around Blockhouse Bay Road. Certainly, Blockhouse Bay Road could do with that extra lane out in the morning, and the extra lane in in the evening would have made quite a difference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EBut the road I want to really focus on is Patiki Road, and the reason I want to focus on Patiki Road is it goes off State Highway 20, I think it is, and leads up into Rosebank Road, up through the Avondale Peninsula. That is an intense light\u2014I was going to say \u201Cintense light industrial area\u201D; it\u2019s a light industrial area\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed93a79f9d8b4d47ada036e18310dc83\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Does the member have a question for the\u00A0Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298c30e3b8a7744feaef2c4cdda4c5095\u0022\u003EHon Dr DEBORAH RUSSELL\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I do\u2014I do. I\u2019m going to get to it, I promise. There are a lot of businesses there and the traffic gets incredibly congested there. It is hard for businesses to operate there because the traffic is inadequate. Yet this project, which would have been so beneficial to them, has been taken off the drawing board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EI want to know if the Minister consulted the Rosebank Business Association. I mean, they\u2019ve been lobbying for years for better traffic on that road. They\u2019ve lobbied, and they really do need some improvements there. So has the Minister\u2014in lieu of having a select committee stage where people like the Rosebank Business Association could have come and talked about this project\u2014consulted with the Rosebank Business Association?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212d74f81-b1f7-4b51-9fb4-8f9481477192\u0022\u003EThat dynamic traffic flow would have made a huge difference, not just to the local residents but to businesses in that area, and it\u2019s a real shame that they haven\u2019t had that chance to come and make that case themselves, so I\u2019m making it for them. What\u00A0consultation did the Minister undertake with the businesses operating along Rosebank Road? Those businesses are typically represented by the Rosebank Business Association.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bf99a32daba41978a6f15f2cdbc29bd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I take the next call, can I just reiterate what the former Chair said to members: not to now refer to specific projects but to the ones that remain as a consequence of this bill. She did say you could mention specific projects, but the questioning to the Minister about those has been fairly well done\u2014I\u2019ve got a good record of them. So we\u2019re looking for new material and we are looking for specific questions to the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022c62a21c4c01348c4a680a1298df8095e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c62a21c4c01348c4a680a1298df8095e\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and I thank the member for the question. Ultimately, as I\u2019ve outlined on a number of occasions, the Government has been very clear around which of these projects will require the remaining funding to support. There were a number of members raising questions about particular projects. Obviously, we\u2019ve released the Government policy statement on transport this week and those issues will be dealt with through the council being able to continue to put forward projects. Ultimately, this bill is about the Auckland regional fuel tax. We\u2019re removing the Auckland regional fuel tax and that\u2019s what this bill does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022 data-id=\u00222f1075cb161640d8bfa5b5452c517619\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f1075cb161640d8bfa5b5452c517619\u0022\u003EKATIE NIMON (National\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u00222e3a3005c4844c71963449fe5a1384a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e3a3005c4844c71963449fe5a1384a3\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I really appreciate the opportunity to take a call. I\u2019ve got two specific lines of questions that could have definitely been addressed at the select committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ESo the first one is: whether a child impact assessment has been done on this bill. The\u00A0reason why I\u2019m raising this is because if you look at the general policy statement, it\u2019s very clear that part of what this bill intends to do is to provide some relief to New\u00A0Zealanders who are facing difficulty due to the rising cost of living. So it\u2019s really clear that there is a cost of living intent in this bill. At the select committee stage, we normally could evaluate the impact that such a bill with cost of living implications would have on things like child poverty reduction. I think this is quite pertinent to ask because we\u2019ve been told by different Ministers on bills that will increase child poverty that those bills that increase child poverty are not to be taken in isolation but as part of a range of interventions that the Government is doing. This is one of those, according to different Ministers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ESo what I\u2019m interested to know is whether a child impact assessment has been done as part of the process of this bill, to actually evaluate the cost of living impacts on children, particularly on child poverty reduction, because, to me, I guess, this is one of the bills the Government intends to have cost of living impacts. So I\u2019m keen to know what analysis and to what extent those impacts on cost of living relief have been done as part of preparing for this bill, and if there\u2019s no information, actually, around, for example, how many children does the Minister expect to be lifted out of poverty as part of the relief that this bill is supposed to provide, I\u2019m curious to know then whether the Minister can back up his arguments around the significant cost of living impacts that this will have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThe other thing that I was interested to unpack was around a distributional assessment, and that\u2019s the other part that I think hasn\u2019t really been unpacked as part of the legislative process. Again, this is something that we could have unpacked with officials and with the Minister, and other submitters could have brought their own analysis on this. By\u00A0distributional assessment, I mean, for example, which population groups are the ones that the Minister expects to have most to gain as part of the repeal of the regional fuel tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ESo on different bills that we normally evaluate in select committee, we do get the opportunity to assess where we do think that impact will go. So, for example, is he expecting that people from specific neighbourhoods will be more disproportionately benefiting compared to others? Is this families, for example, receiving income support, or different ethnic groups expected to benefit? Is this people who are working full time or part-time or who live near, for example, public transport areas? This is important, right? Because if the whole intent of the repeal is to have a cost of living impact, it\u2019s worthwhile examining who\u2019s going to feel that impact that he claims this bill will have the most on? I think, again, if the Minister\u2019s unable to substantiate his so-called cost of living impacts of this bill by backing it up with evidence and robust analysis, I just question, then, whether the cost of living argument for this bill is just based on vibes as opposed to actually robust evidence around who will benefit the most.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ETo recap, I\u2019m interested in whether a child impact assessment has been done, whether a distributional assessment was done, and whether the same analysis on how this will impact child poverty reduction targets\u2014particularly in the context of other bills that will increase child poverty in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u0022dfbaa4e750bb440e9752330f4f28a3c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dfbaa4e750bb440e9752330f4f28a3c5\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002283cd644f39e34e4b8f398bfc8684d5ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283cd644f39e34e4b8f398bfc8684d5ff\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Camilla Belich\u2014oh, sorry, she\u2019s not here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022394b1ffa8dce47a79b36a28176f566ff\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: I am here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bca891180d5a4a318e71962bb321c753\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, you are here. Good on you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022f7cfefbf66554481a7f7bb69a0220d67\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f7cfefbf66554481a7f7bb69a0220d67\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019ll take the call, even if you didn\u2019t mean to give it to me, Madam Chair\u2014thank you very much. I did want to speak to an Amendment Paper that I have and specifically cover some grounds which I don\u2019t think have been covered to date in the questioning of the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s been a lot of talk about various projects that the Minister has decided not to exempt from the repeal of a number of these projects, and I would like, actually, a bit more of a thorough answer from the Minister. I just had a look at the Standing Orders, and the Minister is required to answer all of our questions. I\u2019m not sure that simply saying, \u201CI don\u2019t want to\u201D or \u201CIt\u2019s not the one I picked\u201D is a substantial enough or considered enough justification for the amount of projects which are being defunded, essentially, in Auckland. So the specific ones I wanted to mention\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3858cb153bd44308a6e5af0ec5b8e10\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: There is an expectation that he does, yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f125381c7227441f81da81a8cc6a5023\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. So the clause I wanted to mention is clause 7. Now, the reason clause 7 keeps coming up, Madam Chair, as you\u2019ll be aware, is clause 7, basically, gets rid of an entire Schedule within the primary Act, which lists a number of projects which the Minister, on the whole, has decided to defund for Aucklanders. The\u00A0specific ones that I wanted to mention, I wouldn\u2019t describe them as local projects; I\u00A0 would describe them as essential infrastructure decisions which have been consulted on for a number of years and are integral to Auckland as a city. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe one that I think most clearly illustrates that particular point is the project number\u00A09, which I have suggested should be exempted, and one of the aspects of project number\u00A09\u00A0was capital expenditure to support the City Centre Masterplan Access for Everyone programme. Now, for those of you who aren\u2019t aware about the City Centre Masterplan Access for Everyone programme, I\u2019m sure Auckland MPs, including the Minister, will be well aware of it, because it\u2019s existed since 2012 and was, indeed, in 2019 consulted on and endorsed in 2020 by the Auckland planning committee. And this is being repealed specifically in the part of the section which we are discussing at the\u00A0moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI mean, that is quite different from a number of the other issues which have been discussed, and I wanted to know from the Minister: has he turned his mind to this particular plan? And how does he envisage that that particular plan and its very important objectives\u2014which look at the best utilisation of the central city, which is something which is enjoyed by not only everyone who lives in Auckland but, indeed, visitors to Auckland\u2014how is that going to be supported by his Government, considering this is proposed to be repealed by this bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe second area that I wanted to highlight in this particular project\u2014which is called a project, but, actually, it\u2019s a list of significant initiatives which won\u2019t be moving forward\u2014is the retrofit of existing painted cycle lanes and appropriate safety barriers. We can, I\u00A0think, all agree that we need to have safer cycling in New Zealand, and this particular project was funded\u20142018 to 2028 was the proposal for that. That\u2019s not going forward, and I think it\u2019s important that the Minister explain to the committee why was a decision that he made or that his Cabinet made to not fund that anymore and to not have those safety features in Auckland cycling to be funded, and the justification for that. Because I think it is important and I think the Minister has a duty to this committee to explain why things that have been consulted on by Aucklanders, implemented by Auckland Council\u2014proposals that sought to enrich the city centre and provide greater access to Aucklanders to the city centre\u2014are now no longer going ahead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s something that has existed since 2012, and was revisited in 2019, and then in 2020. It is a significant period of time and, for me, it seems very distressing to think that all of the work that went into that could be repealed without a select committee process. So I do, on that point\u2014if he doesn\u2019t come back to me on cycling, I think that he does have a duty to talk about the City Centre Masterplan Access for Everyone and the reasoning that he wanted to not fund that capital expenditure, and what will exist in its place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2549ebe8dae4e7480e0655f21d17ed6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2549ebe8dae4e7480e0655f21d17ed6\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E There\u2019s a couple of questions there in relation to one from Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March from the Green Party in relation to the cost of living. This will have a cost of living impact by reducing the cost of petrol for Aucklanders, and that is something which is, of course, good news to people in Auckland and I know has significant support from the people of Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn relation to the question from Camilla Belich, I have answered a range of very similar questions in relation to particular Amendment Papers which we\u2019ve said we\u2019re not supporting. Because ultimately we were elected to remove this tax, we\u2019re removing it on 30 June this year. There will only be a certain amount of remaining funding and we have prioritised that remaining funding to the projects listed in the bill, and that is what we\u2019re doing through this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022 data-id=\u00226ea5e7c4755d45b89209996d84a23e36\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ea5e7c4755d45b89209996d84a23e36\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022034d912f174c4930ae682d3ec1d4e2f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022034d912f174c4930ae682d3ec1d4e2f6\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I take another call, I want to remind people, again, that we are not discussing or debating projects that are no longer in the bill.\u00A0OK?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u002230f344ebc8674d3680dbbdd3c5a7b320\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002230f344ebc8674d3680dbbdd3c5a7b320\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. There are two separate legs to this contribution. Both are new. The first is about what options the Minister considered for those policies which he discussed on the campaign trail around alternatives to a regional fuel tax, given that\u2014and I\u2019m referring the committee here to Part 1 of the bill, clause 4, on page two of our copy, which is entitled \u201CSubpart 3 of Part\u00A02 repealed\u201D, and it says, \u201CRepeal subpart 3 of Part 2.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo what this part does is it removes the legislative framework that allows new regional fuel taxes to be created, also from 1 July 2024, and the regulations relating to the proposals of new schemes and the conditions that must follow will also be revoked. My question to the Minister about this is: is this not the part of the law which he would seek to amend, were he to introduce time-user charging, or would this piece of legislation not provide him with an easy way to introduce things like motorway tolls, which were discussed in the campaign about alternatives to a regional fuel tax for Auckland? Would this provision that is being repealed by this bill, in fact, be useful to those things that he has indicated to Aucklanders he is considering, and can the Minister give us an assurance that we\u2019re not going to be back in this House quite soon to bring in what is, essentially, a very similar regime to the one that we are repealing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EYou know, we could work in this committee stage very quickly on an amendment that would put that back so that it is quite possible for this House to amend that section, if those alternatives are something which the Minister wants to explore, because if we keep that in, then there is some efficiency about providing a legislative route for an amendment which is well understood and which everybody knows how it operates. That wouldn\u2019t run in the face of what the Minister is trying to do. We accept that at this stage, the committee stage, the Minister is absolutely able to propose an idea to the committee, and this would not cut against his idea; it would simply leave in the provisions which allow for arrangements like these to be made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe Minister might provide the committee here with some clarity about how time-user charges are different. They are different\u2014they are not revenue-raising implements, usually\u2014and in other jurisdictions they are ways of managing traffic flows, because people change their behaviour when they are in place. But this would be something which would allow the levies to be raised by Government, which would actually allow time-user charging to be in place. That\u2019s the first question there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe second question I have for the Minister is not about a proposal that has been taken off the table entirely\u2014and, look, I think the Minister will be keen to answer this one, because it\u2019s a project that he is interested in, as am I. Both of us are from Manurewa, and it concerns Manurewa: it is about Mill Road. But my question specifically is about this: the Minister is indicating that he is moving Mill Road out of this small pot of money here, which is created by the Auckland regional fuel tax, and into the big pot of money. So it\u2019s very unlike the other projects that my colleagues have been discussing. It\u2019s not going away; there is a provision for it. The Minister has indicated that it will go into the big pot to be considered alongside other significant projects that happen around the country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo my question to the Minister is: I\u2019m keen on Mill Road as a local roading upgrade\u2014I want people to have access to that as a local project\u2014but what I\u2019m concerned about is that that project could balloon into, essentially, a road of national significance that we spend $3.5 billion on, and now, if it\u2019s in that big pot and out of the instruments here in the small pot, which are being repealed by this bill, what assurance can the Minister give to the committee that there will be adequate controls over that sort of ballooning of costs in a project which should be an upgrade of a local road? It is a local road in South Auckland which South Aucklanders use. That\u2019s a specific question about Mill Road, and I have others, if you\u2019d like to discuss that great project. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00220ed032277fc54c1994eca9ed8259505c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ed032277fc54c1994eca9ed8259505c\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u00A0mean, the first question from Arena Williams is not relevant to this bill. This bill is repealing the regional fuel tax. If the Government was to make other policy changes in regards to other types of funding and financing for infrastructure, that is something which would be done separately. So it\u2019s not relevant to the bill which is in front of us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn relation to the question around in-ground projects, again, that question has been asked multiple times. I would note, though, that the regional fuel tax was not proposing to spend any money on Mill Road because the last Government cancelled it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022 data-id=\u00229f93f6c03a4b49c894e7902762d66b91\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229f93f6c03a4b49c894e7902762d66b91\u0022\u003EMILES ANDERSON (National\u2014Waitaki):\u003C/span\u003E I move that debate on this question now end.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac2dc177731e452b827e5126d0ff5a5a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac2dc177731e452b827e5126d0ff5a5a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry, there was a problem with the motion that was put. We\u2019ll have one more go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022 data-id=\u0022cfa3a39306e7494d80e74fd1b5e55a67\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cfa3a39306e7494d80e74fd1b5e55a67\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. This\u00A0is only my second call today, and I wanted to delve a little bit into a number of areas that I\u2019ve been working on over the years with people who live, particularly, in the Maungakiekie electorate. Those are particularly around, for example, bus improvements in areas like around Sylvia Park, which is the busiest shopping mall in the country and an area that deserves improvement so that people can get around. I also have a few questions\u2014specifically around road safety, walking and cycling routes\u2014to the Minister as well. I have worked over the last few years with groups of mums and dads who\u2019ve been walking their children to local schools. What they would really like is for their children to be able to cycle to schools together and to be able to do it safely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003ENow, I get that we\u2019re not delving into specific projects that are being removed by the dismantling of this structure through this particular repeal bill\u2014I get that\u2014but what I really want to ask the Minister about is the gaps, because, ultimately, what we\u2019re talking about is 11 projects that will not go ahead, which, in its entirety, means that infrastructure that would have allowed children to be able, potentially, to cycle to schools or people to be able to get to their busiest local mall is not there. So there is a gap, and I do want to know what advice the Minister\u2019s received about plugging some of those gaps.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EI do want to know what the thinking was behind addressing those significant and intractable issues that Aucklanders are facing. For example, I mean, since 2017, we\u2019ve seen reports saying that Auckland is in the midst of a road-safety crisis. Death and serious injuries have increased by 70 percent between 2014 and 2017. That\u2019s three times more than what the rest of the country has experienced. In Ellerslie, in a suburb in Maungakiekie, alone, there\u2019s been a huge amount of work and there\u2019s been advocacy that\u2019s gone into some of the road-safety improvements that are required to be able to save lives, essentially. So I\u2019d like to know: what thinking and what advice has the Minister received in terms of plugging some of those gaps?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EI also want to know from a disability perspective, because some of the capital projects that will be lost as a result of this repeal bill were meant to address accessibility deficiencies, and I see that specifically listed in the Order in Council. So I\u2019d like to know from a disability perspective as well: where is the gaps analysis? Has there been any consultation with our disability communities\u2014with our disabled people\u2014for whom using roads is already unsafe, to ensure that there will be perhaps other road safety improvements that will help them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EFinally, my former colleague Marja Lubeck was a huge supporter of the Penlink project, and I just have a quick clarification question for the Minister, because I know that steady progress has been made since 2020. The sod was turned over a year ago. What\u2019s stopping it? It\u2019s under one of the projects listed in terms of it being stopped, and I\u2019d really like to know whether it does stay or what exactly happens to that project as well. Thank you, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022 data-id=\u0022b0ca763c2b714f36a27b8449f8a6e7dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b0ca763c2b714f36a27b8449f8a6e7dd\u0022\u003EDr CARLOS CHEUNG (National\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222de32e55cb5845f884968fc1c1a40fe8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc02e74cc444462a80fd2092ae4de3ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc02e74cc444462a80fd2092ae4de3ac\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Tangi Utikere\u2019s tabled amendment to insert new clause 6A be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220f928640da824762933b498639781971\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002240968e39019347b2afa8c1f4bc642911\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240968e39019347b2afa8c1f4bc642911\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Helen White\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 7 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224242829061ad4abe84413468a2d8c166\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022335ab8e9adc34737802c69e41e7a5cd5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022335ab8e9adc34737802c69e41e7a5cd5\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Lemauga Lydia Sosene\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 7 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228c1b598de2ca49158abb5754273fad0c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00225c3780d49d5b4c7d83e65c4866d1fdcd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c3780d49d5b4c7d83e65c4866d1fdcd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Shanan Halbert\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 7 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022dbac3962312644f497ff84acc1b33611\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022976da4f9b38a4267900816f6838394cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022976da4f9b38a4267900816f6838394cd\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Tangi Utikere\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 7 replacing the words \u201C7 to 11\u201D with \u201C8 to 11\u201D be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022326f73b7dbcb48cb94f422d53c1af21f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022068ae96246c34ca2b5ef3d88db70cb08\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022068ae96246c34ca2b5ef3d88db70cb08\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 7 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022877f654cabb14085a56df029a2681392\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00226afd3c1e83d846b292481b16d2798640\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226afd3c1e83d846b292481b16d2798640\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Arena Williams\u2019 tabled amendment to clause 7 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221fb5725221a24d4990e03d9746c78ec5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00225ef386d1a06e4efd9d26d57cac7ccf21\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ef386d1a06e4efd9d26d57cac7ccf21\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Camilla Belich\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 7 replacing the words \u201C1 to 3\u201D with \u201C1, 3\u201D be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221524ac68e4d04689abc952f087a99a1a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022e30effb7c7fa4a33963ce709f2311e45\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e30effb7c7fa4a33963ce709f2311e45\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Camilla Belich\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 7 replacing the words \u201C7 to 11\u201D with \u201C7, 8, 10, 11\u201D be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221140a196b1c84275ac393c123054e578\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022c75750e005d04272ade1c6447fcff721\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c75750e005d04272ade1c6447fcff721\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Hon Priyanca Radhakrishnan\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 7 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002239b7b5c1a481421c9e77c920e52f1895\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002292a6047695e34569b710d0090e65418e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f62ec26347b448c09787ee2047e8ddfe\u0022\u003EPart 2  Consequential amendments \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022f1d8f1a60f154bd2a517da7925a080ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f1d8f1a60f154bd2a517da7925a080ea\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to Part 2. This is the debate on clauses 9 to 14, \u201CConsequential amendments\u201D and Schedules 2 and 3. The\u00A0question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u002243348358d5d944f0a72e569e7ebf7cc0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243348358d5d944f0a72e569e7ebf7cc0\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Assistant Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Madam Chair. Thank you, Madam Chair. I raise a point of order in relation to Speakers\u2019 ruling 132/1 and Standing Order 315(4). I seek your guidance on your rulings in the previous debate about those amendments that members on this side were raising questions about, which you said had been rejected by the Minister. This draws on logic in Speakers\u2019 ruling 132/1 that \u201CA Chairperson has to consider the admissibility of amendments that are substantially the same as an amendment that has already been [not agreed to]\u201D. That logic was brought in after members of the Labour Party introduced a huge number of amendments about date changes, and then it allowed those date changes to be treated as, essentially, one thing to be voted on, so as not to waste the House\u2019s time. The problem with applying that sort of logic to your points in that debate is that we do not want the committee to get into a situation where a Minister might reject all of the amendments that have been put by Opposition members, and then the Chairperson to apply that logic in Speakers\u2019 ruling 132 in order to, essentially, stifle debate about a number of amendments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe problem here is that the amendments that were presented by Labour members were all different. Some applied to projects which would continue; some applied to projects which would not continue; some applied to projects which would be continued by the Auckland Council but not by the Government. So those are amendments which had a substantially different effect, and they should not be treated as if they were simply changes to dates. I guess, Madam Speaker, I\u2019m asking you to reflect on whether, going forward in these committee stages, Opposition members can expect to put a number of amendments which are consequentially different but amend the same sections, because if the Minister is able to rule out any support for amendments to the same section that have different results, then that will significantly stifle the Opposition\u2019s ability to question the Minister on the changes that he proposes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll also draw your attention, Madam Speaker, to Standing Order 315(4), which is about \u201Camendments are proposed that, in the opinion of the chairperson, are the same in substance\u201D. That Standing Order should be applied at the time of voting on those amendments. But there is no indication there that there was ever an intention for that Standing Order to be applied to the debate and to the contributions. So to apply that logic in order to move on to a closure motion and to tell Opposition members not once but three times is the issue here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240d7658f478a47289cd2649a5f514cff\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Can the member please point out what the question is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022370844fcd6d347c28491ff2a0e1fd0af\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. The question for you, Madam Chair, is: did you rely on Speakers\u2019 ruling 132/1 or Standing Order 315(4) to, essentially, give direction to Labour members twice that their contributions should not mention their amendments, which were, in your view, substantially the same? You are well within your right to rule that those amendments were substantially the same, but did you use those Speakers\u2019 rulings and that Standing Order to do that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bef5a07a84140b8a81ae0fe756cd001\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: I take note of the member\u2019s contribution, and, as you will be aware, it\u2019s the Chair\u2019s discretion about the length of the debate, to take the closure motion, and the content of the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u002225f000696c86466289ca2f0286c1e509\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225f000696c86466289ca2f0286c1e509\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Assistant Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Speaking to the point of order, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e8f173e3c0f4671ac207d74d5c6bb8b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Is this a different point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4907f74c6d146a28b915420be44c974\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: My question is: is that a ruling, Madam Chair, that Labour members should take into account for further committee stages?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4a169ca59724febb29782ea6981887b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The discretion of the Chair is definitely something that you should keep in mind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9dde4b35947491eb87a74fedb94fe10\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9dde4b35947491eb87a74fedb94fe10\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Chief Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order. Madam Chair, there was a question that, I think, I submit to you is reasonable in trying to get some clarity in terms of the ruling that you\u2019ve made. It\u2019s still not quite clear to members on this side of the House, my colleague Ms Williams identified\u2014were you relying on Speakers\u2019 ruling 132/1 or were you relying on Standing Order 315(4)? I don\u2019t think it\u2019s unreasonable for any member of this House to seek clarity as to which of those you relied on. I take the point that you\u2019ve made that it is up to the Chair; however, effectively, giving an instruction to any member of this House that they are not to raise any issues that because the Minister had already indicated that they were\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286b706a5abce46e5ac3623fc615c0d24\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: OK. I understand the point of order. I\u00A0understand the various procedures that you\u2019re outlining. But at the end of the day, I was attempting to give the Speaker\u2019s guidance about the debate. We were getting very repetitive. The person in the Chair prior to me coming in had already tried to give that guidance; I did it twice, as you\u2019ve pointed out. That was the purpose of making those recommendations to the members: the debate had become repetitive. Every one of those amendments was tabled and debated, and it was the repetition that we were very aware of that was happening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf174efa48e44b52b2b21af1ded09fd1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf174efa48e44b52b2b21af1ded09fd1\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Chief Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214e1e31ef2e8458fa3c8a23a97022ff0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Is this a different point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c327d8a5b964f11bb75d8f58bd7ba4f\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: This is a different point of order. Madam Chair, you\u2019ve just indicated that every single item that was an Amendment Paper was tabled was debated. That, I submit to you, is incorrect. There was an Amendment Paper in my name that I sought a call for on many occasions, you chose not to give it to me, and it was not mentioned. It related to the ferry network and charging infrastructure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cbf2ba9d7594496b789dae00c3b4a1d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: OK. I apologise if I missed that in the debate, but every one of the amendments was tabled and voted on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b9d86db1c994b2ab4dab354c8627f7b\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: I understand that, but the issue here is that you, effectively, are giving an instruction to members opposite as to what they can and what they can\u2019t\u00A0do, and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4d5881be4844ca1a7c8f62330e0dbfc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, you did take four calls, Mr Utikere, in this debate. So you\u2019ve had ample\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b07e3d90b6284cec8c925ed4dcf45b1a\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c90302e107340edbc6aba0b4e7566ca\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I\u2019m not taking any more. We are moving on\u00A0to Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u00223595bd1b41fb4f73abe722da355488c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223595bd1b41fb4f73abe722da355488c8\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E Can I speak to that point of order, Madam Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022777f74247d934317a623c18d39b4bf94\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Are you seeking a call?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c24392d44acb437cacf3d00f60c73ec2\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I was going to speak to the previous point of\u00A0order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022139c9573a2eb4f4e81c0501da4ac6cc2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I just said that that debate is over.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00229504251195d447c7984254bc0c9c9795\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229504251195d447c7984254bc0c9c9795\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Assistant Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d357ac68025045548ea1c6bf3ab5b5f9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Are you calling a new point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252395c5f5a0a410396679891c654f550\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. Madam Chair, is your guidance for the Labour members that it is repetitive to seek a call on a new Amendment Paper, under Speakers\u2019 ruling 132/1?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022 data-id=\u0022e1583d5425094c759079981182aab10f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e1583d5425094c759079981182aab10f\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN (National\u2014Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Speaking to the point of order. Thank\u00A0you, Madam Chair. We\u2019re getting to the point now where we are getting a number of what appear to be relatively frivolous points of orders being raised, and the Speaker alluded to this earlier on in question time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c592cc5a8f9407482f8e16e37baa7bc\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Tell that to Winston in question time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225333502703fe448787200ed58597b110\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Points of order are still actually heard in silence, and so I think it\u2019s reasonable to have the opportunity to talk to this, because what we\u2019ve seen in the past couple of Parliaments has been a clear focus from the Speaker that clarification actually is something that should be taken offline, outside the debating chamber. If\u00A0members are unsure on how the process in the House works, they can seek a time with the Speaker to clarify that. But the aspect that the members are concerned about, obviously, is that there are a number of amendments, there is a clear Speakers\u2019 ruling that make it obvious that it\u2019s not\u2014just because there\u2019s a tabled amendment doesn\u2019t mean there should always be an opportunity to speak to every amendment, and indeed the repetition is a key part of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a11dc49c118c46858fe32f68a5d5c120\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: If you get the call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022997a3850debd4d34b159bc425e7aaf5d\u0022\u003ETIM VAN DE MOLEN\u003C/span\u003E: So, again, I\u2019d appreciate some courtesy here, Mr Utikere, as we\u2019re going through a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003EThe issue is, of course, that it is the Chair\u2019s call to make, and the continuing questioning of that is not helpful to the order of the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a14a549c979042acb7176640f9e57805\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210f171bc7a6a4e4aa3da571ce08f5ec0\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: No, this debate about all of that is over. I\u2019ve said we are moving on now to Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u0022899873511c154defa78bbdccc048c1c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022899873511c154defa78bbdccc048c1c7\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u00A0thank the Minister for that explanation, because I do have an Amendment Paper in my name and it\u2019s great to be able to speak to it tonight. It seeks an amendment to Schedule 3 and to delete the reference to the Search and Surveillance Act. I take the Minister\u2019s point around it needing to sit there, but I guess what I\u2019m interested in hearing from the Minister is what the active provisions are. I state that because, prior to coming to this House, I was an authorised officer under the provisions of the Search and Surveillance Act 2012, so I have some experience in its operation in relation to the issue of search warrants but also of production orders, where that\u2019s considered appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister is where within\u2014well, it\u2019s proposed that it remains there in terms of within Schedule 3. But my question is around how it relates, specifically in an active form, to the bill, to the legislation. So I\u2019d be interested in an answer from the Minister around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe other is in terms of those consequential amendments: is the Minister satisfied that all of them\u2014and there are a number there that relate to local government legislations, and then there is of course the catch-all in clause 14, which is around all the other Acts that will be amended. But is the Minister satisfied that those amendments capture all of the possibilities, and, in particular, what provision is there if particular projects\u2014and at this stage it looks as though they will only be three of the projects\u2014are either deferred or if they don\u2019t proceed? Given the changing dynamics of things, what does that then mean? So I\u2019d be interested\u2014particularly around the active nature of the Search and Surveillance Act provisions. [Member resumes seat] Oh, Madam Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9e6fd59a286414ea0d83c674fe96414\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Tangi Utikere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u00227df6a2f4cf574c9ea12ec225d86837e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227df6a2f4cf574c9ea12ec225d86837e9\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Perhaps we\u2019ll give some time for the Minister to reflect on that and perhaps take a call. The reason as to why the Amendment Paper is in my name is because\u2014at this stage, there is an option that the Opposition may even vote against my own Amendment Paper if the Minister is able to provide an explanation or a rationale that is suitable. But failing to do that\u2014and perhaps seeking to take a call might be a good start\u2014I guess, leaves us in a position where we will have to actually vote for the Amendment Paper, but that\u2019s obviously not necessarily a bad thing. Is the Minister comfortable that Schedule 3 outlines all of the relevant pieces of legislation? In particular, when we look at what\u2019s listed there, the Goods and Services Tax Act 1985\u2014the definition is the only thing that is suggested to be repealed. Does the Minister believe that, because the definition of what is to be a regional fuel tax, under subsection (1) of section 2, would be repealed, that\u2019s all that is required and that\u2019s the end of that one?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe only other question I really have is in relation to the Legislation Act 2019 and whether there needs to be a list of any other pieces of legislation, given that the Legislation Act 2019 often captures a number of items there\u2014although I note that the Land Transport Management Act, certainly the earlier part that the committee dealt with, was what was seeking to be repealed, or a subpart of that\u2014Subpart 3, I think\u2014whether the list contained in Schedule 3 is fulsome enough for the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022e08a940bdd9b4c0ab2144fd004fb05a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e08a940bdd9b4c0ab2144fd004fb05a8\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the member for their question in relation to the Search and Surveillance Act. So the current legislation provides powers to issue search warrants in respect of alleged offences. Alleged offences are in relation to whether or not the people who are\u2014in relation to the keeping of records, and this is in relation to the tax. So, obviously, it\u2019s all about making sure that the tax is being applied and being paid appropriately. So, obviously, when the tax was in place, it\u2019s appropriate to have penalties for non-payment. Of course, you then also need powers in order to make sure that search warrants can be done, in respect of alleged offences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EIn relation to the consequential amendments, as the member will have seen in the commencement clause\u2014which of course we will come to shortly in Schedule 3\u2014the items relating to the Goods and Services Tax Act, the Land Transport Act, the Search and Surveillance Act come into force on 1 July 2025, so those repeals don\u2019t occur until the system is, effectively, wound down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022a5426de52c2242d08555b9c61829e523\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a5426de52c2242d08555b9c61829e523\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Part 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d79766404bd844e9af20d11b36ab73c3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001227\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022d69957f67bec463b9ad9001198e496ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d69957f67bec463b9ad9001198e496ee\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: We come to Schedule 1. The question is that Tangi Utikere\u2019s tabled amendments to Schedule 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002219cf5d3910814dda90f697f9be398bea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002219cf5d3910814dda90f697f9be398bea\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Schedule 1 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002216b79af254f3438d87221f35b2b98116\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022f7b8a34a8e264aef9bfae93c98322878\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f7b8a34a8e264aef9bfae93c98322878\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: We come to Schedule 2. The question is that Schedule 2 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227ae53bcc9c684b18b1e70354a6750c1b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002265e7f6a407a44d93aecff5efc2a463f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002265e7f6a407a44d93aecff5efc2a463f3\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: We now come to Schedule 3. The question is that Tangi Utikere\u2019s tabled amendment to Schedule 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022cc77ad85f17446c9bb159221dde1d1e0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe085a6526754a93950952d768d905b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe085a6526754a93950952d768d905b9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Schedule 3 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221c0f30ea9c434b47b02f68c6e62503b0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Schedule 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002297e04f4029dd4834887955c5216d2028\u0022\u003EClauses 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022b43072a2e10d48cc947675f30d7adfcc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b43072a2e10d48cc947675f30d7adfcc\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, we now come to our final debate. This\u00A0is the debate on clauses 1 and 2, \u201CTitle\u201D and \u201CCommencement\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00221b913bef6423468583c25fd00dbf0f3b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b913bef6423468583c25fd00dbf0f3b\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. This is the last part of the debate in the committee stage in this bill. Clause 1, of course, is the \u201CTitle\u201D clause; this bill is the Land Transport Management (Repeal of Regional Fuel Tax) Amendment Bill 2024. That is the title, that is what it does. I know there\u2019s a proposed tabled amendment by the Opposition which we will not be supporting because, effectively, it changes the purpose of the legislation. This legislation is repealing the regional fuel tax, which is exactly what we\u2019re doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EClause 2 is the \u201CCommencement\u201D clause, and there are three key dates for the commencement of this bill. On the day after Royal assent, the list of projects that regional fuel tax revenue can be spent on will be amended to just three. The regional fuel tax order from 2018 contained a list of 14 projects, and this legislation will constrain that remaining revenue and funds which have accumulated to be spent on the remaining three projects, as outlined in earlier parts of this debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E On 1 July 2024, the Act will come into place. This is when the regional fuel tax will be lifted, and the fuel distributed in Auckland region will no longer be subject to the extra 10c per litre plus 1.5c of GST\u201411.5c per litre. On 1 July 2025, the savings provisions will be ended and other consequential amendments to Acts such as removing references to the regional fuel tax and particular mention of the Search and Surveillance Act\u2014which I note sparked the interest of the Opposition transport spokesperson\u2014will come into force. This will wrap the scheme up in its entirety. Leaving a year allows some activity to continue, so that\u2019s issuing refunds, and it will allow the NZTA to continue its auditing process to ensure the tax has been correctly paid.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u00224de2a869d31444ee988fe8a728997492\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224de2a869d31444ee988fe8a728997492\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and I thank the Minister for his interest in the Search and Surveillance Act of 2012. The\u00A0Minister has already alluded to a proposed amendment in my name; I have two in relation to \u201CTitle\u201D and \u201CCommencement\u201D. I invite the Minister to reflect, perhaps, on the contribution that I\u2019m about to make, and then he may wish to inform the House as to whether he has changed his mind or not, as to what this should be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EI think what\u2019s really important is that the title of any bill or any piece of legislation needs to reflect what\u2019s actually in it. And when I look at what is proposed here, my amendment is, effectively, to delete the words \u201CLand Transport Management (Repeal of Regional Fuel Tax)\u201D and to replace it with \u201CLand Transport Management (Instructions to Auckland Council Regarding the Regional Fuel Tax)\u201D. And that is exactly what this bill is about; it is about setting a set of instructions to Auckland Council about what they are going to do next. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s important, I think, that when you look at a label, it says what you\u2019re getting. It says it on the tin. Perhaps this is something that should say: \u201C227g Dole Pineapple Chunk\u201D because that is the cost of living sort of measure that this Government is going to provide as part of this piece of legislation. What is really important is that the title of the bill reflects what it is all about. The Minister, you know, talks about, \u201CActually, it\u2019s about a repeal bill\u201D; yes, it is, but it doesn\u2019t have to have that in the title. The content of the bill is what is important. And so your suggestion, Minister, that, well, it\u2019s called what is suggested because it is a repeal bill; well, this House is the author of its own destiny, and it can determine what it wishes. And so I encourage the Minister to reflect on whether or not he thinks these are instructions to Auckland Council, and, if so, he may wish to think again. And, you know, it\u2019s never too late to change in terms of support for a fantastic Amendment Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d882b3c6df934cd6b8dc17d959bcc146\u0022\u003EAndy Foster\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re still waiting for one!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d915636877b740129e87e2853dbfdcd0\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: The other one is a proposed amendment to clause\u2014what\u2019s that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a225b9304a764b9a96ead0e43ee34aa9\u0022\u003EAndy Foster\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re still waiting for one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab8fb70c030a4b70a331bc84f7dca4f4\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we haven\u2019t got anything from you, so many people will be waiting for quite some time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc49b3040aa54bb58de73ff91a16d235\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc49b3040aa54bb58de73ff91a16d235\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Not bringing the Chair\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022164e54c021f14fa09dce0caa2e754b50\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: My apologies, Madam Chair. Mr Foster, we\u2019re still waiting for a contribution that\u2019s meaningful from him. But in terms of \u201CTitle\u201D and \u201CCommencement\u201D, in clause 2, the suggestion that I\u2019ve put forward there is to delete the commencement date by one year. And I\u2019m interested in the Minister\u2019s thoughts around this because being able to provide a bit of a buffer in terms of a delay to the commencement would mean that some of those transitional provisions could actually be looked at. They could be thought through. So that\u2019s the basis on which I\u2019ve put forward this amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThen the second clause there\u2014clause 2, subclause (2)(b)\u2014the dates changing there are, effectively, consequential amendments that are further aligned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019d be interested in the Minister\u2019s thoughts around the title to make sure that it\u00A0intends to say exactly what it intends to do, and that the commencement date is such\u00A0that it provides an opportunity for things to bed in, and, in particular, a number of the unknown elements that may exist can be ironed out. So I look forward to the\u00A0Minister\u2019s contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022 data-id=\u0022e69af7ec0e5d48da8265e9e89b3b6138\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e69af7ec0e5d48da8265e9e89b3b6138\u0022\u003EHon PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. As we debate clauses 1 and 2 of this bill, the \u201CTitle\u201D and \u201CCommencement\u201D, as the Minister of Transport has laid out, and as we can all read, this is called the Land Transport Management (Repeal of Regional Fuel Tax) Amendment Bill 2024. I would argue that this is just window dressing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve asked, on numerous occasions, why this piece of legislation that dismantles the structure, which will actually lead to gaps in infrastructure funding, across Auckland is being commenced at all. The only response that we\u2019ve had from the Minister to date is that his party\u2019s won an election. I would argue that the title of this bill is not what it should be or what we see here before us; what it really should be is: the \u201CLand Transport Management (Backwards on Buses) Amendment Bill 2024\u201D. With all due respect, I would point out to the Minister that the campaign wasn\u2019t on the infrastructure projects\u2014the 11 projects, that would be scrapped as a result of this bill going through\u2014it was just on the repeal of the tax, which sounds great, but what people might not have known, because it wasn\u2019t campaigned on, was the indirect costs to Aucklanders as a result of this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EIn terms of being backwards on buses, I would really like the Minister to reflect on just the number of avenues in which we would be going backwards, because, for example, whether it\u2019s bus priority improvements, whether it\u2019s the central city being able to cope with the number of buses and the frequency of buses\u2014in my area alone, we\u2019ve had buses cancelled just because we have too many of them that are terminating in the city centre\u2014what this bill will eventually lead to is absolutely a gap in how we manage that. How do we manage, in a central city the size of Auckland, buses not terminating there? How do we make improvements to the priority of buses in that sense?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EIn my area, as well, improving airport access was part of the project that was scheduled, and we\u2019re going backwards in that sense, as well. There was a long-term programme of initiatives to improve bus services from the likes of New Lynn, Mount Roskill, Onehunga, right through to the airport. Now that\u2019s been scrapped as well. That\u2019s why I would ask the Minister to reflect on the number of instances in which we\u2019re going backwards on buses here, as a result of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022872744a3-2256-4cdd-a4cc-939836dc2b11\u0022\u003EThere are a number of other things. This could also be the \u201CLand Transport Management (Repeal but No Replacement) Amendment Bill\u201D, because this takes away, as I\u2019ve mentioned, 11 projects that would actually make a huge difference for Aucklanders, and it replaces it with nothing. So if we\u2019re going to argue that this is window dressing, this title, it doesn\u2019t actually go to the heart of what it does or what the cost or what the impact would be for Aucklanders. I could also argue, then, that this would actually be the \u201CLand Transport Management (Increase of Rates for Aucklanders) Amendment Bill\u201D, because we\u2019ve heard very clearly from the Mayor of Auckland that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225f79d3a21c34c29a8228c3098433c85\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Thank you, Madam Chair. Look, the member has now had three attempts at suggesting an alternate name, none of which are actually credible or objective attempts to provide an alternate, and are indeed actually a criticism of the bill, which is clearly\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253a478f3bec049c2bfce025705978c75\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022071f7800-2755-41b6-83df-07ebaf867ae2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8897830e2f54fb5a987ea3f1e25517a\u0022\u003ETim van de Molen\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it is. It\u2019s clearly Speakers\u2019 ruling 130/2, which specifies \u201CAn amendment to the title of a bill must be a serious or objective description of the bill rather than an attempt to criticise its contents.\u201D, which is all we\u2019ve heard from the member through her contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae3ecc6bb0d4407691e5ceb66cb814db\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298c14f5cd31a46c7a0a97f9269ac1162\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s no need; we\u2019ll just carry on. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00227ed2be90502e4b59b6537953ca9e9072\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ed2be90502e4b59b6537953ca9e9072\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. A new question for the Minister on this part. I draw his attention to clause 2, which is the commencement. My question for the Minister is about (2)(a) of this clause, and I\u2019d like the Minister to provide the committee with some answers about this staggered commencement date. Usually in the legislation that I have examined in committee stage, there has been one commencement date. It\u2019s possible for legislation to have multiple dates, but that is somewhat unusual. In urgency, it\u2019s useful for the House to understand why a staggered date exists and what the rationale is, and what advice the Minister considered about the staggered commencement date.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo in clause 2, most of the bill is introduced on 1 July. That is the date that terminates the Auckland regional fuel tax, and though this side of the House does not agree with that, we accept that between now and 1 July\u2014that is a very quick time frame\u2014that provides some buffer for those arrangements to be made which will need to be put into place: things like changes to the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment\u2019s regime of monitoring fuel prices, which the Minister so helpfully told the House about in the prior debate. But my question is about the amendment restricting which capital projects will be supported from the Auckland regional fuel tax revenue, because that comes into force the day after the bill receives Royal assent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EMy question to the Minister is: why is that earlier than 1 July? Is that because the Minister is essentially giving instructions to Auckland Council as soon as possible? Is\u00A0there something which suggests to the Minister that Auckland Council would try to spend the regional fuel tax money on the projects which it prioritises over the priorities of the Minister? Is it the Minister\u2019s thinking that he needs to intervene, given that the Mayor of Auckland has criticised this move by the Minister? Is it his thought that councillors will move against the Minister to spend that regional fuel tax money if he does not move this date forward? And what is the advice that he\u2019s had about bringing the date forward for this particular part of the commencement clause?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u00223712828fff684eb7995c92816c3d09bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223712828fff684eb7995c92816c3d09bd\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and I thank the member for her questions. The regional fuel tax date is ending on 1 July, as she\u2019s pointed out. I note there\u2019s a tabled amendment by Tangi Utikere to try and push all those dates out. We\u2019re not supporting that. We were elected to remove the Auckland regional fuel tax; we are delivering on that commitment, which Aucklanders overwhelmingly voted for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ENow, there are remaining funds in the Auckland Council coffers\u2014over $340 million\u2014and there\u2019ll be remaining funding which will be received between now and 1 July, and as I\u2019ve outlined publicly, 1 July was the date chosen because that aligns with the Auckland Council\u2019s annual budget year and that\u2019s the right time to make that change. We want to make sure that the remaining funds go towards those priority projects, and to do that, the commencement clause means that, effectively, the scheme is amended immediately upon enactment so that those funds are channelled towards those projects and any remaining funds which are collected between now and 1 July are also channelled towards those projects. Then once the tax ends, those funds continue to be channelled towards those projects until those funds are completed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThat is the rationale for the commencement clauses and the three different ways in which it is put in this legislation. I think it\u2019s very sensible. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022835ca41260044895b21a20cf9ccaf817\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022835ca41260044895b21a20cf9ccaf817\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. There\u2019s been\u2014with all due respect to my Auckland colleagues\u2014a lot said about the effect on Auckland when this commencement occurs. I\u2019m concerned about that, but I\u2019m more concerned\u2014because no one on the other side of the House is\u2014about what happens to other parts of the country. Because my questions\u2014and the Minister and his colleagues voted down my amendment relating to road safety and the ongoing need for that funding. So given the absence of commitment to those projects, the question I have for the Minister is: will other regions of the country, following commencement, then start to miss out because he succumbs to political pressure to fund some of these Auckland projects?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EBecause they\u2019d take money from Northland, or they\u2019ll take money from Otago, or they\u2019ll take money from South Canterbury because none of those members of Parliament are standing up for their own regions. So on behalf of them and other rural areas: once the commencement occurs, how do we know that there\u2019s not going to be a shift in funding when the regional fuel tax ceases? How do we know there\u2019s not going to be a shift in funding from other parts of the country into Auckland? Because there\u2019s a whole lot of votes there, I\u2019m told, and politicians seem to be receptive to a lot of voters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe question is about the shift in funds to fill the gaps that my colleagues have identified once this bill comes into place. So I\u2019d ask the Minister to give an assurance\u2014an absolute assurance\u2014that from commencement date, there will be no shift in funding from projects or commitments and safety around the rest of the country just to fund the shortfall that this bill will create for Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022 data-id=\u002288517657d7e742b09203808beec6ef3a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288517657d7e742b09203808beec6ef3a\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022bfeb246b38384434b4bec662b8786f17\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That debate on this question now close.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022ffff4423f8a14e8bb49d8299e405018b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ffff4423f8a14e8bb49d8299e405018b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Tangi Utikere\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 1 be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002205932d01252741dfb65ff8a2a09ea398\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ae7bdec7b7a44e0485572186478bf7cb\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022941eff71f241498b94db2d02f4821180\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022941eff71f241498b94db2d02f4821180\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Minister\u2019s tabled amendment to clause 2 be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022963b129abb0b473db89a4b2d319dc52e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac2c9d4367ff44af91372aeae91f9bb8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac2c9d4367ff44af91372aeae91f9bb8\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that Tangi Utikere\u2019s tabled amendments to clause 2 be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002294d26057f5db4d11a28efadc40a13a9c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220b05c2015342415bb5f997553ff4f998\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 as amended agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001272\u0022\u003EBill to be reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001273\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022c488fbfde7a14022be7a3dc3f857ab40\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c488fbfde7a14022be7a3dc3f857ab40\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, the committee has considered the Land Transport Management (Repeal of Regional Fuel Tax) Amendment Bill and reports it with amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EReport adopted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002226c861d51ed14334b714df3f2ac367a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002226c861d51ed14334b714df3f2ac367a6\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for third reading immediately. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225a413ca9f62b40cbb38fff601aaa448c\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022ffaa3b4f52e9492eac114ca73001db34\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ffaa3b4f52e9492eac114ca73001db34\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Land Transport Management (Repeal of Regional Fuel Tax) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ETonight is a great night for Aucklanders, and it\u2019s a great day for Aucklanders, because we are repealing the Auckland regional fuel tax which was imposed by the former Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022283f0df6fecc4531b521a15b8e5c5771\u0022\u003EHon Tama Potaka\u003C/span\u003E: Gone by midnight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218a4682b713c4568a193a23deb524b04\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019ll be gone by midnight tonight. This bill will remove the previous Labour Government\u2019s 11.5c per litre Auckland regional fuel tax, and this bill will do so on 1 July 2024. This bill is part of our 100-day plan, and what a great 100 days it has been for the new coalition Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThis bill is delivering on our coalition commitment to introduce legislation to remove the regional fuel tax, and I want to thank my colleagues in the National Party but also our coalition support partners from the ACT Party and also the New Zealand First Party for their support in bringing this bill through the House. It\u2019s something we campaigned on and it\u2019s something we\u2019re delivering. It might sound radical to members opposite, but we campaigned on getting rid of the regional fuel tax. Aucklanders overwhelmingly voted\u2014over 55 percent of Aucklanders\u2014for the coalition Government, and here we are today delivering on our promises.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThere are a number of reasons why we are removing the regional fuel tax: firstly, because it will save Aucklanders money as they fill up their cars from 1 July this year: $5\u00A0to $10 per tank. If you\u2019ve got a Toyota Corolla, it\u2019s 5 bucks\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be837c677d194018b26fab21e09cf3ac\u0022\u003EDan Bidois\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not insignificant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec1713190bc5415096e4365b7db2bca7\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and if you drive a Toyota Hilux, that\u2019s 10 bucks. As my colleague from Northcote says, that is not insignificant. That will make a meaningful difference to Aucklanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003ESecondly, this bill will ensure that no future regional fuel taxes can be put in place. We are getting rid of the regional fuel tax regime that the last Government put in place\u2014it\u2019s \u201Cgone-burger\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThirdly, we will ensure that the remaining funds are spent on high-priority projects. There is over $340 million of unspent revenue. The last Government said, \u201CWe need this money to spend on major projects to get Auckland moving.\u201D Mill Road: they said that Mill Road would be a high-priority project. Well, guess how that\u2019s gone! It\u2019s been cancelled more times than it was started under the last Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s hundreds of millions of dollars unspent. Over two years\u2019 worth of regional fuel tax revenue has been taken from hard-working Aucklanders at the pump and not even spent, but we\u2019re going to ensure that those remaining funds are spent on high-priority projects. The Eastern Busway, the electric trains and stabling, and local roading corridor improvements\u2014those are priorities, and it\u2019s not going to be spent on what the last Government thought were priorities. They thought that we should tax Aucklanders more to build speed bumps. Speed bumps\u2014$490,000 speed bumps\u2014that\u2019s why they wanted to tax Aucklanders more, and red light cameras: they wanted to take another 11.5c a litre off Aucklanders to put red light cameras in. The other thing they wanted to do was speed management plans to slow Aucklanders down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThat was the priority of the last Government, and it\u2019s not the priority of this Government. We want to get Auckland moving quickly and safely, and that\u2019s going to be our priority. We released our Government policy statement this week, which highlights and clarifies and sets a very clear direction around transport investment for New\u00A0Zealanders going forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003EThe National Government, the coalition Government, our support partners\u2014I thank them for their support. We\u2019re very proud to bring this legislation to the House. We know it will make a difference to Aucklanders filling up their cars. We know we\u2019ll make sure those remaining funds are put on high-priority projects. We\u2019re going to stop the dumb stuff the last Government was doing. We\u2019re going to get transport back on track in Auckland. I commend the bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022df6c131918de437992b2e724ad0c75ec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df6c131918de437992b2e724ad0c75ec\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is the motion be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022 data-id=\u002225bec1caf7634d4f984593b4a8614830\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225bec1caf7634d4f984593b4a8614830\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE (Labour\u2014Palmerston North):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. The\u00A0best thing about that contribution was when the member sat down. This is an appalling use of the House\u2019s time and urgency, and it will come as no surprise to members of this House that we in the Labour Party will be opposing this terrible piece of legislation that is being rushed through without any select committee process and with no public scrutiny, and it is a real indictment on the ability of this Government to engage with communities, because it simply does not know how to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe Act that this bill seeks to repeal and remove does have a purpose. It provides opportunities for the folk of Auckland and, in particular, the decision makers in Auckland to make decisions for their local community. There is an opportunity for many of those Auckland transport projects to move along the way and actually get done with provisions such as this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EAs I said earlier today, this is a bill that, basically, forces Auckland into a corner. Earlier this evening, we talked in this House about the possibility of renaming the bill, and said that this should be a bill where its name is actually more about giving instructions to Auckland Council about the regional fuel tax (RFT), because that is exactly what this is all about. This will result in cuts to critical transportation projects in Auckland, projects that will make a huge difference. It will mean that local government, as a sector in Auckland, will have to rethink what it wishes to do, what it wishes to prioritise, and how it wishes to fund things. That is not a good move that this Government is seeking to rush through the House under urgency at this late hour. It is a realistic fact that this will result in increases for those in Auckland because of the funding hole that will exist as a result of many of these projects that have been consigned to the scrap heap by this Government, who seem to have the mantra of \u201CWe know best.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThis is a Government that clearly has no eye on the future. It is a Government that has no new ideas, it has no new funding, and, in particular, it has no replacement for this legislation\u2014there is no replacement whatsoever. They have no credibility, they are wanting to whack folk with a 22 percent increase to fuel excise, and they are wishing to, effectively, introduce a drivers\u2019 tax on folk. This is what Aucklanders are not expecting from this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EIt was unfortunate that the Government decided that they did not want a regulatory impact statement as part of this. They seem to have adopted this approach that, because they won the election, they\u2019re not going to bother about the impact that it\u2019s going to have, and, surely, what we would expect is a Government that\u2019s prepared to actually stack those things up and be accountable for the things that are contained in that document. What we do have, though\u2014and this was referred to earlier in the House\u2014is a departmental disclosure statement, and it makes for very interesting reading. It makes for very interesting reading. I note that members opposite haven\u2019t really relied on that in any of their contributions as this piece of legislation was before the House this evening. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EBut when we have a look at what is contained in that departmental disclosure statement, in the absence of any regulatory impact statement, it simply says that when it comes to the focus on the cost of living, removing this regional fuel tax \u201Cwill result in modest savings for households and businesses, between $5-$10 per tank\u201D\u2014and we seem to hear that from Minister Simeon Brown frequently\u2014but also that the actual savings, based on the average distances that are travelled in Auckland City and not collecting that RFT out to 2028, will equate to around $1.85 for a motorist, all right\u2014$1.85. I\u2019ve done a little bit of a calculation and a little bit of online shopping, and I know members opposite don\u2019t like to hear this, but what will that get Aucklanders? It will get them a 227-gram can of Dole pineapple chunks\u2014not a large tin; a small one. Now, if that\u2019s their solution to the cost of living pressures that households in Auckland are going to be facing, then they are far from the mark in terms of where this bill will actually lie. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThis is also a bill that the departmental disclosure statement identifies as \u201Cregressive\u201D but that it will also have a disproportionate impact on those from lower socio-economic backgrounds, and we have heard in this House today from local members who have explained and who have questioned the Minister about the impact that this will have in local communities. Local communities in South Auckland: I heard from my colleague Lemauga Lydia Sosene, the member for M\u0101ngere, who talked about the impact that that would have in terms of access to the airport. These are issues that the Minister and this coalition Government seem very easy and quick to just move to one side.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a57c9c840c314da7ac132d8e9df82de5\u0022\u003ERima Nakhle\u003C/span\u003E: Takanini can\u2019t wait.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7d5adcffa1f4161a925fb88fcd5fbae\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: But there are three projects, of course\u2014and I hear Ms Stanford calling out there. There are three projects, of course, that are going to remain in the picture, and they are projects that are going to still be eligible for regional fuel tax funding, or what is left of them, and isn\u2019t it interesting that two of those three relate to two members in this Parliament? One relates to Pakuranga in terms of the Minister who is responsible for this bill\u2014Simeon Brown.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2f64f125ede4f03a15f449222f9d756\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: What a coincidence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2a8cbd189964e1eaa0bb31727715464\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: What a coincidence, and when questioned as part of the committee of the whole stage, one of the issues that came out was the perception of conflicts of interest. The Minister was given an opportunity to inform the House as to the process that things went through, and the answer, actually, was non-existent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThe other project, it seems, of particular interest is one that Erica Stanford seems to be very fond of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022275c91f8-c6b8-42fd-b3ab-d8fc000dd41f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ac72c040b3849cab660a5a210f84563\u0022\u003EHon Erica Stanford\u003C/span\u003E: For seven years, my friend\u2014seven years of lobbying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fd5cafedccc46a98e72ebd0f5cf5d57\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and it is in relation to project No. 12. Well, it doesn\u2019t matter if it\u2019s for seven years or six years, or whatever; the reality is it\u2019s still in the list. Why is it that, when we look through those 14 projects, of the three that seem to make the cut\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022daccdfef60e94221b60eb05a80576d11\u0022\u003ETim Costley\u003C/span\u003E: None for \u201CPalmy\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e675bed1500f4743b0a2142c5a6ef926\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, \u201CPalmy\u201D is not in Auckland, Mr Costley, in case you didn\u2019t know, all right? But of the three, there were two of them that managed to make the cut, and it\u2019s interesting that with regard to project No. 12, which is the Glenvar Road - East Coast Road, Erica Stanford has put a petition up and, lo and behold, it\u2019s suddenly one of the projects that is still able to attract the funding. The other one is the member for Pakuranga, the Minister who is responsible\u2014his own project seems to be funded. They don\u2019t shy away from that\u2014they don\u2019t shy away from that at all\u2014and I find it very interesting that given the opportunity to address this in the committee of the whole House, that opportunity was not taken up. Mr Speaker, they get a bit tetchy over there when they get challenged, and isn\u2019t that interesting?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThis is about a bill that is going to\u2014yes\u2014repeal, but it is going to make a limited difference to many in Auckland, and if we have a look at some of the other projects that are up for the scrap heap, they are projects that relate to infrastructure. They are projects that relate to improving airport access. They are projects that relate to rolling out infrastructure when it comes to the electric charging of the ferry terminal, something I wasn\u2019t able to speak to as part of this particular process. However, capital expenditure for charging infrastructure for electric ferries, among other things, will not happen as a result of this bill. There are plenty of other active transport opportunities and plenty of other road safety opportunities that our colleague the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor touched on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThis is a Government that is signalling to Auckland that they know best when it comes to projects in Auckland, and they didn\u2019t even support one of the amendments which was to ensure that there was ongoing dialogue and consultation with Auckland\u2019s mayor. Now, we heard through this process that there have been conversations, there has been dialogue, and there have been discussions. What is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2d7a308e9fd41c78f0d0e3d60847f9f\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: A meeting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ac0dcdc102445c99dbdd4f0b513c4f5\u0022\u003ETANGI UTIKERE\u003C/span\u003E: There has been a meeting or two. What is wrong with putting in this piece of legislation a provision that would require there to be some consultation with Auckland so that the transport needs of the future for Auckland were considered and were put into the mix and that the mayor and the council were part of that particular process as\u00A0well?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThis is a bill that has been rushed through the Parliament. It is something that is a real shame, because of the projects that are still in the running, they are ones that are of direct benefit to some members in this House who seem to be promoting these or have promoted them for quite some time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003EThis is a bill where it really is a shame that the Parliament has progressed this piece of legislation without any select committee process. There has not been any opportunity, and for a Government\u2014a coalition Government\u2014to simply say, \u201CWell, we campaigned on this and, therefore, that is the justification.\u201D, it is a blind-sided approach to democracy, and we on this side of the House will not stand for it. I do not commend this bill to the\u00A0House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022 data-id=\u0022df9bc2f0835c4e87ad91337f486ade25\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df9bc2f0835c4e87ad91337f486ade25\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER (Green\u2014Rongotai):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. T\u0113n\u0101 koutou e te Whare. This bill reflects the very \u201Cshort-termism\u201D of the coalition Government, and particularly the National Party Minister of Transport, Simeon Brown. The whole way that they approach the problems and solutions is incredibly short term.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo within the explanatory note, in the general policy statement of this bill, it says that the purpose for this is to address cost of living because \u201CFuel costs are significant for many households,\u201D and when this bill\u2014the repeal bill\u2014comes through, there will be potentially a tiny, minuscule saving in terms of what people are paying on fuel. I think we heard that the official advice from the Ministry of Transport was that it is about $1 or maybe $2 a week. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EBut, in reality, the high cost of transport is affecting all New Zealanders\u2014particularly Aucklanders\u2014and it\u2019s not going to be solved by repealing a small regional fuel tax that was then being used to invest in infrastructure, because the problem is far more complex than that, and, fundamentally, there\u2019s a misunderstanding on the part of the Government about why we\u2019re in the world we\u2019re in. The reason why New Zealanders have such high transport costs is because subsequent Governments over many decades\u2014even more than half a century, I would say\u2014have failed to provide for cost-effective transport solutions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThey have done this for really understandable reasons. They followed the United States in this pattern from the 1950s, where they prioritised urban motorways. They had planning rules that, basically, forced urban sprawl that did not allow residential development in city centres. They also underfunded public transport, and in the very worst years\u2014in the 1990s\u2014they sold off a bunch of assets like the railways and public transport operators and bus depots. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThey ripped out the electrified, light rail public transport that had existed in the beginning of the 20th century in many parts of New Zealand, and that\u2019s why New\u00A0Zealand now has the highest car-ownership rate in the entire world. It is because people don\u2019t have alternatives, and you don\u2019t fix that by not funding the alternatives; you fix that by especially investing in the alternatives, and we\u2019ve seen report and report and report of\u00A0this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s heaps of evidence around this. Even the previous National Government under John Key said that people don\u2019t bike because\u2014you know, I was looking at a press release from the Hon Gerry Brownlee when he was Minister of Transport, proudly announcing the urban cycleways fund and saying, \u201CThe problem is that there are not connected cycleway networks in cities. People don\u2019t feel safe to cycle or to let their kids cycle and, therefore, they don\u2019t, and so we\u2019re proudly going to invest in that.\u201D But now this National Government comes in, under Simeon Brown, and says, \u201CWe\u2019re going to stop doing all of those things and we\u2019re literally going to ban transport agencies and councils from using certain classes within the Government policy statement from investing in these things.\u201D It\u2019s very, very short term. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019re going to save a tiny amount of money for people in the short term, but in the medium term and long term, we\u2019re going to keep having this same problem of households having to own more cars. That is affecting the cost of living. Transport is usually the second- or third-highest category of expense for a household, and for low-income households in New Zealand, it is much higher. They\u2019re spending a much higher percentage of their income on transport than higher-income households. In other countries in the world, this is not the case. Low-income people spend less money on transport, but that\u2019s because they have alternatives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EHere, in New Zealand, to afford a house you have to live far away from the centre of town, and then, on top of that, to get anywhere you have to own more cars. So it\u2019s forced car-ownership. It\u2019s thousands and thousands of dollars a year for every household, and for those who can\u2019t afford cars or those people who are too young to drive or too old to drive or who have physical disabilities which mean they cannot drive, they cannot get anywhere. They\u2019re completely dependent on other people to be able to get around. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EThere is an alternative to this, and that was some of the projects that were being funded by the Auckland regional fuel tax\u2014not all of them, but some of them were quite good projects that had been consulted on by the community\u2014so I\u2019ll address now that part of this bill. Why we\u2019re not supporting this bill is because it is very much central government dictating to local government and local communities about what they can do and how they can solve their local problems, and it\u2019s the exact opposite of the rhetoric the exact same Minister used in all of the speeches around the repeal of the three waters. So, when it comes to three waters, they\u2019re all about localism; when it comes to transport, they want to take away a tool that Auckland Council was using to fund projects that were prioritised locally, and even, I have to say though, in the regional fuel tax\u2014a regional bill\u2014I thought it was too much central control from the then Labour Government. I do believe in the very important role of local communities to decide what transport projects are going to be needed to solve their local problems, and I think much more central government funding needs to go to local government to be able to deliver that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EFinally, in this debate, the Minister has repeatedly used misinformation to exaggerate. He made these claims around speed bumps\u2014it\u2019s ridiculous. Yes, there was a project that involved a whole lot of other civil construction works in Auckland, not just the raised crossing. There was a whole lot of drainage issues, there was a whole lot of civil works. I asked the Minister written questions asking, \u201CWhat is the average cost of a raised pedestrian crossing for Auckland Transport?\u201D He couldn\u2019t tell me\u2014he didn\u2019t know. The answers to his written questions were to go ask Auckland Transport. The only piece of evidence he cited was a New Zealand Herald article about this one project, and in subsequent New Zealand Herald articles where they kept referring to the cost of raised pedestrian crossings as $500,000, they had to retract it and print a correction because it\u2019s just not true. There was only one project that was that much, and there were complicated reasons why that was the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EBut even if that were the case, why is it that on the one hand, putting in infrastructure that enables elderly people and young children to safely cross the road in urban areas where there are schools and markets and shops and homes\u2014like why are we focusing on these trivial, tiny costs when the Government of the day is looking at building a highway in Auckland that\u2019s going to cost $500 million per kilometre? Now, I know math is not everybody\u2019s thing, but, like, that\u2019s a thousand times more per kilometre. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3bc8f9f794e43d4800c0fd4fd6c8cfa\u0022\u003ETim Costley\u003C/span\u003E: Speed bumps. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd110873acbf4a9696dea2b49e8cef42\u0022\u003EHon JULIE ANNE GENTER\u003C/span\u003E: No, it\u2019s not a speed bump, my friend. I know that\u2019s what the Minister keeps referring to it as, but that\u2019s not what it is, firstly, and, secondly, the cost isn\u2019t $500,000. It\u2019s misinformation. But that\u2019s the kind of Donald Trump environment that we are now facing in New Zealand thanks to the National Party in Opposition, who were totally irresponsible. We\u2019ve heard over and over again that they campaigned on this and, therefore, it\u2019s fine\u2014every single idiotic thing they said on the election trail, apparently, was agreed to by the New Zealand public, and now that they\u2019ve had that election, they\u2019re going to push things through in urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003ENow, the problem is that in Opposition, they did not have access to the kinds of tools to carry out a proper democratic process to properly cost things, and that\u2019s why, of course, there is a $24 billion hole between the money they actually have and the projects they\u2019ve promised to deliver. But, ultimately, this isn\u2019t about money. It\u2019s like we have money, we have resources, and we can use them well, and what the Green Party is saying is there is an opportunity to make a much bigger difference to people\u2019s quality of life, to their health and wellbeing, to the affordability of transport, and to the livability of their communities, and to do so, we have to do the exact opposite of everything this current coalition Government is currently proposing, because what they are proposing is so extreme and so backwards that it goes far beyond what the last National Government under John Key did. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EIt is hard to explain just how extreme it is, and it will take many years for people to see the results of these policy decisions. But to completely rule out funding things and to talk about red light cameras, safe crossings, and speed management as though that\u2019s somehow anathema to a flourishing and productive society is completely ridiculous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258f935f1-6646-40ab-9d99-17029396850c\u0022\u003EI know that some of those members opposite will have been to other countries. They will have been to successful, thriving economies that have productivity that we would aspire to have, and do you know what they have? They have walkable neighbourhoods and they have affordable transport. Their children are much healthier and their people are much healthier because it\u2019s normalised to be able to walk and ride bikes and take public transport. That is the tragedy of the Trumpist misinformation, pathetic approach that this Government is taking to transport, and I hope that all of those members opposite reflect on their part in this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9c7ffa0ac164c06b98453a70128c474\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9c7ffa0ac164c06b98453a70128c474\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Cameron Luxon\u2014Luxton.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1e4d190a1764bf7ab82bd059e164024\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1e4d190a1764bf7ab82bd059e164024\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. \u201CLux-ton\u201D\u2014yeah, cheers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022959d50b8803441d698caf8799d00213b\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: This will be good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223292b69369344acb9f0cf8864574884d\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON\u003C/span\u003E: It is good\u2014it\u2019s nice and short. I commend this bill to the\u00A0House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022 data-id=\u0022051329fd250e44568fc06e64c3c48f7f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022051329fd250e44568fc06e64c3c48f7f\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m not going to be quite as short, but I will be quick. Two quick points to make. The first one of them is that we\u2019ve heard a lot from the other side of the House that the repeal of this regional fuel tax will mean the death of all these projects they are so passionate about. All it will mean is that at the moment, Auckland gets about $130 million a year from this tax. It also gets about $1.5 billion from the National Land Transport Fund (NLTF), so any good project that meets the criteria of the NLTF can get funded; it might take a little bit longer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EThe second one is that I think that the Green Party hasn\u2019t realised that the last Labour Government actually was quite emphatic that they were arguing for regional fuel taxes in other parts of the country. The last Labour Government was quite emphatic that there were going to be no more regional taxes across the country as a whole\u2014no more. That was Jacinda Ardern who said that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003ESo this is meeting the coalition agreement. It is meeting the commitments that the National Party made to the country in the election campaign. I commend this bill to\u00A0the\u00A0House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022c4cc88c0452641d8bb7cfc7906636ff4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c4cc88c0452641d8bb7cfc7906636ff4\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: This is a five-minute, split call. I call Mariameno Taka\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022 data-id=\u002238717227ba714cac9b77f2d99f9484cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Te Tai Tokerau\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002238717227ba714cac9b77f2d99f9484cf\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI ():\u003C/span\u003E Kapa-Kingi. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225dcc60769575400b80a11626844a84af\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Mariameno Kapa-Kingi\u2014my apologies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca8ed07200254508ab1a2e8e9e64e2d9\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. Ka pai. T\u0113n\u0101 koe. So, to build on my k\u014Drero from earlier this afternoon, I now stand and question the real vision of this Government. In the first 100 days, this Government has repealed Act after Act and not replaced them, and if they have been replaced, then it has been to the detriment of our people and, in actual fact, to the detriment of their so-called one New Zealand, which is the preferred rhetoric. I think it goes like \u201CAll New Zealanders\u201D, which is tantamount to \u201CWe are all the same.\u201D, which finally lands with \u201CWe are all the privileged, entitled, white same.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224731d9feecb84ef5965efc4def0be5ec\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Oh! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f35cf2fb160f48048d50ff6bef7cc7f1\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI\u003C/span\u003E: Despite the groaning in the corner, we have endured and continue to endure\u2014only naming a few\u2014the disestablishment of Te Aka Whai Ora, a M\u0101ori institution. They had barely much room to get themselves going, and suddenly it\u2019s like \u201CNo, no, no. That might just be a bit too brown for this time.\u201D The Legal Services Amendment Bill, the misuse of drugs amendment bill, the road-user charges amendment bill, business payment practices\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a776628104c4ea7958ebba24a34cabe\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s this got to do with the bill? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c64bdaa630b842949a15d5f04152dd6c\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI\u003C/span\u003E: I know the list might be a little bit long for that side of the House, but at least listen and try and appreciate the position. The Firearms Prohibition Orders Legislation Amendment Bill\u2014which will be discussed later tonight\u2014and, finally, the bill which we stand here to debate tonight, the land transport management amendment bill. All of these bills were pushed within the 100 days. Clearly, the Government coalition obviously didn\u2019t realise or didn\u2019t trust, or have any faith in their work, that they wouldn\u2019t take it to the people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022513d23b2487741e2b071470f3509731d\u0022\u003ETom Rutherford\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, we did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf4f014207a94ebab3a6f3ec5d802695\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI\u003C/span\u003E: Really? You know, like take it out in a select process, in a real way, not in a \u201Cjust speaking to your own mates\u201D way and suddenly landing here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003ESo 100 days it\u2019s taken this Government to undo the work of generations of M\u0101ori\u2014generations of M\u0101ori. [Interruption] That might be an unheard-of position on that side of the House, but just let me continue and, hopefully, these people on my left will take some time and take a breath. Generations of M\u0101ori have committed to the reclamation of what is rightfully ours under\u2014wait for it, people\u2014Te Tiriti o Waitangi\u2014you might want a little bit of a session on that, but let\u2019s just carry on\u2014otherwise referred to as the tino rangatiratanga document. Again, that\u2019s another education session, which we might, if we bothered, provide. All of these bills and all of these points lead me to question what is the Government\u2019s real vision, their real focus for Aotearoa and for M\u0101ori in Aotearoa? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f54626bbdb7642209b57efe2b45db3f3\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Ms Kapa-Kingi, it\u2019s been half the speech now. We\u2019d like you to get to the bill, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022914aae1b1b994b848fa7f7757b54cc87\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI\u003C/span\u003E: All right. With this bill, there was no clear vision, at least not beyond this coalition\u2019s three-year term. A lack of vision beyond three years is, in essence, a lack of direction for all of Aotearoa. This will be the third time in a span of 30 years that a National-led Government has repealed such a tax. This Government illustrates a continuous failure when it comes to innovative thinking, and so I\u2019ll repeat: this is the third time in 30 years the Government has repealed such a tax. I\u2019m getting to it, Mr Speaker, just so we can get a bit of calm back in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EIt is not the top 1 percent of Aotearoa who utilise public transport\u2014our buses, our trains, our cycleways\u2014it is largely those who cannot afford private transport who rely on transport infrastructure and who rely on us in Parliament to ensure we can provide for them at least their basic needs. For the community I stand here today and represent, I question us all to consider the vision this Government really has for Aotearoa and what this will mean for us beyond a three-year term. They are determined to demonstrate their conceit and arrogance, and I could not possibly commend this to the House. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u002240ca31afbb484744b1319fe7b3c6bc33\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240ca31afbb484744b1319fe7b3c6bc33\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Minister\u2019s brazen confidence in pushing a bill through without actually substantiating the cost of living impacts it will have, despite the general policy statement focusing on the cost of living relief that the repeal of the regional fuel tax will have, is, quite frankly, admirable. For a Minister to have campaigned on a transport policy that was fiscally incoherent and then bring a bill into the House, claiming that it will have a benefit in terms of the cost of living pressures, and yet refusing to actually even present any evidence on how those benefits will be distributed amongst our different communities and not even being able to back up on how the poorest people in Aotearoa will benefit from the repeal of the regional fuel tax, let alone how this will lift, for example, child poverty rates\u2014which the Government is making worse with other bills\u2014speaks to the Government\u2019s approach in the past few weeks, which is to ram through bills during urgency with absolutely no evidence whatsoever, making a mockery of their supposed commitment to using data and evidence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EActually, this just speaks of a climate-denialist Government that wants to lock in polluting infrastructure\u2014infrastructure that will make it worse for the people who were affected by the Auckland floods. Effectively, what this Government is doing is locking in damaging infrastructure that will prevent people having options, while at the same time presenting no alternative for revenue-gathering to be able to fund the clean, green public transport infrastructure that we desperately need and we\u2019re desperately so behind on, and yet all that we have is a repeal that cuts off critical revenue sources and a climate-denialist Minister who actually just wants to condemn people to live in neighbourhoods that are going to be prone to flooding, neighbourhoods that actually are not going to be as safe as they could have been for children who need to go to schools. This Minister is leading a generation of the Americanisation of our towns and our cities, which is not exactly the kind of urban planning that I think we should be going towards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThe Minister should be ashamed that he was not able during the committee of the whole House to substantiate\u2014he couldn\u2019t even confirm to us about whether he had done a child impact assessment, despite parading the cost of living impacts that this bill would have. But are we surprised? No. At this point, I don\u2019t think any of us should be shocked at the Minister being unwilling to back his legislation with data and evidence when, actually, he campaigned on a transport plan that was, as I said, fiscally incoherent\u2014completely incoherent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ESo what we are going to have as a result of this bill is a going to be a transport mess. There are going to be more people locked in traffic because this guy thinks that all we need is one more lane and that that will actually fix transport. According to him, he\u2019s seen plenty of reports that, I assume, show that in the cities in the US that have taken the approach of just building more lanes and more infrastructure. That has not been proven to actually give people choices or to relieve pressures for those people who do need to use cars, and at the same time, it increases emissions by locking in years of funding of infrastructure that will make the climate crisis worse. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThis is a Government that by nature of not providing a sustainable alternative and by the repeal of the regional fuel tax is making the climate crisis worse. Make no mistake: do not doubt the fact that this is a Government that is not committing to public transport infrastructure, despite people\u2014particularly in areas like Auckland\u2014being very, very well aware that our public transport system is not fit for purpose and needs a Government that is seriously committed to locking in generations of funding and to having a serious, reliable funding stream that does not become a political football. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThis Government is not taking the climate crisis or the lack of public transport seriously in the repeal of the regional fuel tax, and it\u2019s a Government that does clearly not care about actually fronting up about who is going to benefit the most and to what extent, despite passing through legislation earlier that will make 7,000 kids poorer and push them into poverty. The Minister couldn\u2019t substantiate whether this bill will lift some of those 7,000 children out of poverty. Despite again being told that we should wait for those other interventions that will help people, this was supposed to be one of those, and yet, clearly, the Minister cannot back any of this up with evidence. This will simply make future generations poorer by making the climate crisis worse. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed78b54dba61452498b069c06743eb98\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed78b54dba61452498b069c06743eb98\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002245eef91fd1a6431cad40e7605c910c3c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245eef91fd1a6431cad40e7605c910c3c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Thanks for the opportunity to make a contribution in opposition to this very poorly thought-out bill in respect of Auckland transport issues relating to the regional fuel tax. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s now abundantly evident to every New Zealander who follows these issues that the National Party said anything to get elected. They were brazen, as the last speaker for the Greens has said. They were not straight with the New Zealand public. They pretended that they could have their cake and eat it too, and their numbers never added up\u2014never added up. We had the Minister of Transport, Simeon Brown, and his leader, Christopher Luxon, look into the camera and promise New Zealanders that their transport numbers added up. They never did, and they now must be held to account for their lack of being straight with New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThis is but one part of an enormous fiscal hole that they have created for themselves in transport. The \u201CRoads of National Party Significance\u201D that they told the New Zealand public were properly funded in their report were not funded; not just by $1 billion but by between $6 billion and $22 billion short. That was made clear most recently in a media article reporting on advice that has been given by ministries to the Minister that their \u201CRoads of National Party Significance\u201D are between $6 billion and $22 billion more than the amounts that they told the electorate at the time of the election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThese errors are huge. Take the one that was referred to in just the last couple of days: T\u0101kitimu stage two. What did the National Party tell the public that was going to cost: $627 million. What\u2019s its current funding projection: between $900 million and $1,400\u00A0million. What about Woodend? He was talking about that just today. The National Party took that and said that was going to be $270 million. What\u2019s it costing now? Between $550 million and a number even bigger. Cambridge to Piarere: the National Party told New Zealanders it would cost $721 million. Present budgeted cost just a month or two later: between $1.3 billion and $1.7 billion. Their numbers never added up, they said anything to get elected, and now they\u2019re trying to hide from public scrutiny about that lack of straightforwardness to the New Zealand public. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EHere we are, close to five months after the election, and just about every week we meet under urgency, where nothing goes to select committee\u2014nothing goes to select committee\u2014and this bill is another example. It\u2019s being pushed through with no regulatory impact statement to judge the Minister\u2019s errant comments that this will reduce the cost of living for Aucklanders. It is so superficial in its analysis. As Julie Anne Genter and Tangi\u00A0Utikere have both pointed out, the costs of this will still be felt by Auckland. How will those costs affect Aucklanders? Well, as others have said, worthy projects that would have reduced congestion and reduced travel times in Auckland will no longer be funded. In addition to that, as Julie Anne Genter rightly pointed out, people are driven into having to purchase a second or third car in their family for a lack of transport alternatives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe idea that just because this regional fuel tax is removed these costs are removed for Auckland is made clear by comments from the Mayor of Auckland, Wayne Brown. \u201CThe Government have cancelled this in order to reduce people\u2019s costs,\u201D\u2014this is a quote\u2014\u201Cwhich seems completely ridiculous. So I have to put up rates to increase people\u2019s costs.\u201D We\u2019ve seen the Mayor of Auckland make a number of other comments, and he makes the point, quite fairly, that there\u2019s actually going to have to be a combination of rate increases to fill in some of these funding holes but also a cancelling of projects, which will of course mean worse outcomes for Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe cost of Auckland\u2019s congestion is around $1.3 billion a year in lost productivity. Now, that\u2019s going to get worse as the consequence of this legislation, not better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022333252173fcf448094771cd39be07527\u0022\u003EAndy Foster\u003C/span\u003E: They need more speed bumps.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcb944fe0075491db71e65e8b6522f54\u0022\u003EHon DAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Here we go, the reference to speed bumps. What puerile comments we have from the other side. They know that the amount that is projected to be spent on speed bumps is infinitesimally small. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ENow, I actually back the Mayor of Auckland to get rid of unnecessary speed bumps, but it was never a big part of the funding package that was going into speed bumps. I also back the Mayor of Auckland to get rid of some of these ridiculous amounts that have been spent on traffic management for this famous new pedestrian crossing in Williamson Avenue. It\u2019s ridiculous that they\u2019ve spent $170,000 of that $500,000 cost on traffic management\u2014I agree with that. But that is no excuse for this measure, because it is so infinitesimally small in the scheme of things, even though those costs are wrong and should be driven out of the system, and I\u2019d back Wayne Brown to drive them out of the system far more than I would look to Simeon Brown to do it. Wayne Brown will be far more effective at that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EWhat other misrepresentations do we have from Simeon Brown? Simeon Brown goes around the country and he says, \u201COh look, we\u2019re going to fix potholes. We\u2019re going to fix potholes.\u201D The long-term problem as to the state of New Zealand roads was caused by the prior National Government. Steven Joyce came along with his \u201CRoads of National Party Significance\u201D. There\u2019s nothing new in the National Party; it\u2019s just retread from the last term they were in Government, and the last time they did that, they didn\u2019t have enough money in the can then either because, just as they pulled the wool over the eyes of New Zealanders coming into this election, they did the same thing last time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESo what did they do? How did they fund their funding hole that time? They cut back on road maintenance. For a number of years, road maintenance was frozen. The effect of that was that the road surfacing, of which on average about 6 percent of the length of State highways every year needs to be resurfaced\u2014that dropped to, in the worst year, about 3\u00A0percent because they froze the funding for road maintenance. So what happens if you don\u2019t resurface the roads? The water gets in. What happens when the water gets in? You get potholes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESo what did we do as a Government, having inherited that mess? We increased State highway maintenance funding by 65 percent. We started to fill in these potholes that were caused by the National Party. Notwithstanding the enormous problems that were made worse by those flood events last year around the North Island, we were making inroads into that. You can\u2019t fix this overnight, but every year, other than the COVID-related year after we\u2019d been in power in the last Labour-led Government for about a year, we then made sure that road maintenance increased in every year, except for the COVID lockdown year. We got those maintenance rates up so that we were actually resealing 6\u00A0percent per annum of New Zealand\u2019s road length.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESimeon Brown pretends that he\u2019s interested in the issues, but he really is not interested in serious answers to serious and difficult problems. He\u2019s into populism. He\u2019s into processes that avoid scrutiny of his flawed decisions. No select committee, no regulatory impact statement\u2014absolutely appalling process, and not just this legislation, but bills, week after week after week, are being brought forward under urgency. No fair process; no ability for select committee to hear from interested New Zealanders who would be able to unpick the misrepresentations and brazen\u2014brazen\u2014falsehoods that we get from the other side. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThis is bad legislation. It is part of a broader suite of flawed decisions being taken in respect of transport that will make congestion worse in Auckland. They say they\u2019re going to fill it in with congestion charging; they opposed that legislation. They say, \u201CWe want road tolls\u201D; they blocked tolling for Penlink. There is no credibility on transport in this\u00A0Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022 data-id=\u002299225e05b6324521b86291ddfd23af4e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d64de4c1-ef68-477e-9c50-db5cbdf99404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002299225e05b6324521b86291ddfd23af4e\u0022\u003ETOM RUTHERFORD (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E There is so much to say following a lecture like that from David Parker, but what I actually want to say\u2014as Ronan Keating sang\u2014is that you say it best when you say nothing at all. So I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022 data-id=\u00222261a4a4caab4eb083c47e2b49f644e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222261a4a4caab4eb083c47e2b49f644e6\u0022\u003ELEMAUGA LYDIA SOSENE (Labour\u2014M\u0101ngere):\u003C/span\u003E There is so much noise from that side, they\u2019ve finally decided to wake up. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Labour opposes this bill. We oppose it, because if you visit the Auckland international airport or if you visit the Auckland domestic airport, be prepared because you are going to be in gridlock. The regional fuel tax that is now being repealed will affect many families in M\u0101ngere. Many lower socio-economic households were reliant on the transport initiatives that the regional fuel tax was assisting in terms of payment for the investment, and it\u2019s really important because I want to take the second opportunity to highlight a very local project. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s been helpful to understand and to hear the contribution of the effects that the loss of the scope of the regional fuel tax\u2014local projects across T\u0101maki-makau-rau will be affected. What does that mean? Well, it means taking from the left and putting to the right, and for those communities who use public transport, it\u2019s really important that we are very clear on our focus, on this side of the House, that when you have options, you can catch public transport and you can ride your bicycle because there is a good cycle lane that has been planned and you can actually walk to school and you can walk to M\u0101ngere town centre.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EI want to highlight the practicality and the impacts of the loss of such a huge fund that has been invested in T\u0101maki-makau-rau. In many communities, the haves are fine, the have-nots will not be fine, and this will limit the choices of transport. Many of our young people work at the airport precinct, and they will have to continue to drive their vehicles because of the lack of transport investment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EI wanted to highlight Te Ara Mua, which is a local project for future streets that has benefited from this funding. How we have benefited is that we have many more in our community, including our m\u0101tuas, some of them who are over 65, who actually have started riding bicycles. Why? Because the transport infrastructure has been inputted with the assistance of central government and with the assistance of Auckland Council, and especially the elected members, who have been able to test, who have been able to be assisted in the design, and who have been able to be consulted upon in terms of what safety initiatives look like. Many of those projects have had provided the evidence from the community with transport planners.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003ESo I wanted to remind our members of Government\u2014who have come alive in the last 20 minutes\u2014that it\u2019s just helpful for you to understand that when you come to the Auckland domestic airport, be prepared. You are going to be gridlocked because if you can\u2019t get out of the lanes that go across the isthmus, then it\u2019s going to take longer for the transport initiatives to be delivered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EI want to emphasise this in this House and for it to be recorded: pedestrians and cyclists are people who feel safe on routes because they\u2019ve been able to utilise the transport infrastructure that has been invested in. The reduction of traffic speed has enabled more lives to be saved because people understand that it\u2019s an actual local road and not a highway. The reduction of crashes, having cyclists being safe, and for the parents to actually be able to utilise the cycles, rather than driving their children to school, and getting the bikes out\u2014those are the practicalities that have an effect in our local community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003ESo, just as I end off, I just wanted to remind the Government members, and I know we\u2019ve been reminded time and time again by the Minister\u2014notwithstanding that that\u00A0side of the House won the election, which is all good and well, you\u2019ve got lots of local communities who rely on having a safe public transport networks. I do not commend this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00220e843b1285bb4034883657ffd5d00149\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e843b1285bb4034883657ffd5d00149\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Dan\u2014[Interruption] Look, I can understand the frustration when some people don\u2019t get to speak, but can you just allow your man to stand here so I can hear his call. Thank you\u2014Dan Bidois. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb950eb2467842daba899222df411c4a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f429fecb-a955-4d95-8105-e5144e651204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb950eb2467842daba899222df411c4a\u0022\u003EDAN BIDOIS (National\u2014Northcote):\u003C/span\u003E We did win the election last year. We won it on a mandate of easing cost of living pressures, of getting this country back on track, and of cutting back waste. This bill does it all, so I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u002211d8243176114e76b23f130c3c5d27d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002211d8243176114e76b23f130c3c5d27d5\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. I think that last contribution was about 23 seconds. It kind of reflects on where that member is at\u2014[Interruption] Mr\u00A0Speaker, if I may, I can\u2019t hear over the boys there, on the other side. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224aca1bac58e84527b58f8f4e167210e3\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, look, can I just say that we\u2019ve done pretty well. It\u2019s late at night and we all need to keep our blood flowing. Interjections should be rare, reasonable, and preferably just a little bit witty\u2014failing on all counts, across the board. We need to keep awake, so can we just try a little harder? Thank you. We\u2019ll give you back however many seconds my little soliloquy cost then\u2014start again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fb2b5306bc14515b06219153e33798d\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: T\u0113n\u0101 koe, thank you, Mr Speaker. I do want to speak for the full 10 minutes on this call because it is an important one. As a member of Parliament in Auckland based on the North Shore, living in Northcote, actually, the contribution here is very important. We\u2019ve actually had a lack of input into this particular discussion. We\u2019ve got the global city of T\u0101maki-makau-rau Auckland that will have population growth hitting 2 million come 2030. So the common point for everyone in this House, whether you\u2019re from Aotearoa New Zealand or if you\u2019re an Aucklander, is actually: how are we going to ensure that productivity improves and remains high, that Aucklanders can get around the city out of their cars, and that they can get out of congestion? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EWhat we know, Mr Speaker, is that under good tuition\u2014yours\u2014in the Transport and Infrastructure Committee, we did work around the congestion question. We debated in this House tools, solutions, of how we provide Aucklanders with some other options to sitting in their cars. So I\u2019m disappointed tonight, after going through three speaking rounds, a committee stage, with the lack of input from members opposite and a lack of voices from Auckland MPs from the Government. Where was their contribution and representation of Auckland communities? They did not put that argument up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003ELike my colleague Lemauga Sosene, we know the results of the election, and I accept that. I\u2019m fine with that. I accept that this Government wants to repeal the regional fuel tax for Auckland. But in this process, as with anyone who wins an election, it doesn\u2019t mean you\u2019re above this House. If you win an election, it doesn\u2019t mean that you can bypass parliamentary process. What\u2019s happened here tonight is that through ramming this bill through the House, Aucklanders haven\u2019t had the chance to have a say. Aucklanders contributed\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022358097fbc6624bbfb565a0c99fb73c17\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: They did when they voted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022865e2e591b834b42a2a1b47561f67baf\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: The person who said that Aucklanders had their say when they voted\u2014that doesn\u2019t give you a mandate. It doesn\u2019t give you a mandate to overlook parliamentary process, because the voices that matter in this discussion\u2014and the questions I asked the Minister, who was sitting in the chair during the committee stages, were: who have you spoken to, who have you consulted with, what did Mayor Wayne Brown say, and what did Auckland Transport say? His response was: \u201CI had a meeting.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EI then asked what was the nature of the relationship, knowing that both of those organisations\u2014both Mayor Wayne Brown and Dean Kempton, CEO of Auckland Transport\u2014do not agree with this particular piece of legislation. Why? Because it goes backwards\u2014it goes backwards on addressing the common goal that Aucklanders need us to achieve for them. It goes backwards on every time in this House when we have agreed that we have a deficit in our transport infrastructure, and that Government after Government has not invested in adequate transport infrastructure in T\u0101maki-makau-rau Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EWhile I agree that this was put up under a Labour Government\u2014this was our plan\u2014what we don\u2019t see tonight is a plan from that side of the House. There is no plan; there\u2019s only repeal. That\u2019s not good enough for Aucklanders. That is not good enough for people sitting in their cars. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EThere hasn\u2019t been a regulatory impact statement. They\u2019ve pushed this legislation through the House. There haven\u2019t been public submissions. There hasn\u2019t even been a contribution from Auckland Council themselves. So when this bill particularly relates to T\u0101maki-makau-rau Auckland, how the heck can we not invite those voices to make a contribution on this subject? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EAuckland members on that side of the House have done 23 seconds in their contribution in this speaking round\u201423 seconds. They\u2019ve heckled from over there. The member for Upper Harbour has heckled. The member for Northcote has heckled. His contribution was 23 seconds long\u2014I don\u2019t care about Rangitata. My point here is: where are the voices from Auckland? They only tend to be on this side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EThe other key point, and what\u2019s very clear in this bill, is that what the Minister is attempting is to save some of the National Party\u2019s reputation in providing cost of living relief. A clear promise that they made in the election\u2014a clear promise. Tonight, I\u2019m calling them out. I\u2019m calling them out on their broken promises to Aucklanders, because all we\u2019ve seen in 16 out of 17 bills come through this House in urgency is that they are only repealing bills, and not putting up new plans. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022248511060118484ab2c1e9f74e6e8a77\u0022\u003EJames Meager\u003C/span\u003E: The 100-day plan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdc24274a0e34bacb701e71d72203a0e\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a 100-day plan, but just in this 100 days, we have incurred additional costs for Aucklanders. Let\u2019s count them, because if you had asked me a week ago, I would have defended this piece of legislation differently. But what Aucklanders and the rest of the country learnt this week is that they might like the idea of not having a regional fuel tax, and I\u2019m sure most people like that idea. They also want to get out of having congestion. But they got hoodwinked\u2014they got hoodwinked. They got gaslit by this Minister. Through his cynicism, he cancelled a bunch of projects\u2014cancelled the only thing that gets Aucklanders out of their congestion challenges. But what they got hoodwinked with was not cost of living relief, as promised; they got slapped with a $50\u00A0drivers\u2019 tax, and if you count that up, that\u2019s already impacting on Aucklanders. On\u00A0top of that, they\u2019re adding another 22c to fuel excise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfae9766b5cf480d9fded1f690928402\u0022\u003EKatie Nimon\u003C/span\u003E: Talk to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a27c2ffeb2534539902387475d9d458d\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT\u003C/span\u003E: Whoever said, \u201CTalk to the bill.\u201D, and I think it was the member for Napier\u2014it\u2019s actually the cost of living, and if she\u2019d read the bill, it talks specifically about the cost of living. It\u2019s actually a failed attempt by this Minister and the Government to provide cost of living relief for Aucklanders. So that\u2019s quite embarrassing when these MPs have to go back to their communities and explain: \u201CSorry, we had a fiscal hole that, yes, we pretended in the election wasn\u2019t there, but absolutely it\u2019s there. We can\u2019t fund our promises.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EBut that\u2019s not the only broken promise to cost of living, because Aucklanders also face a 23 percent increase in water rates because those members also repealed the affordable water reforms. They also didn\u2019t put up another plan for that. At the heart of this is Aucklanders, the people of T\u0101maki-makau-rau\u2014people still stuck in congestion, people still feeling stressed and having their mental health be impacted on\u2014and productivity still being lost in our economy. For a city that makes the largest contribution to our economy, this has been one of the poorest pieces of legislation smashed through this House that I have ever seen. I\u2019ve seen the poorest contribution from members of Parliament from Auckland, but most of all, I\u2019ve seen the broken promises that in only 100 days, this Government have made, and they will be held accountable for that. But, most of all, they\u2019ve let down our people of Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022 data-id=\u0022565d95d4072444c3a081ac2848c13a64\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022565d95d4072444c3a081ac2848c13a64\u0022\u003EDr CARLOS CHEUNG (National\u2014Mt Roskill):\u003C/span\u003E The number one issue for the residents of Mt Roskill is dealing with the cost of living. The Auckland regional fuel tax has disproportionally hurt those on the lowest incomes in my electorate, who often drive the oldest and most un - fuel-efficient cars. Reducing the cost of fuel will make a meaningful difference, particularly to the families who are counting every dollar at the moment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022587eeeae-8af5-4e11-ac7f-a7690f9c7c3a\u0022\u003ELast year, people in Mt Roskill elected a National MP for the first time, because they believed in National\u2019s 100-day plan to get New Zealand back on track. What a victory for people in Mt Roskill today. What a victory for Aucklanders. Thank you, Minister Simeon Brown. I commend this bill to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221eaa9e2b06d047c8a83464eeaadc97e5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Land Transport Management (Repeal of Regional Fuel Tax) Amendment Bill be now read a third time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001403\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223db7dafd2b5f4c09b477fac719051c1b\u0022\u003EFirearms Prohibition Orders Legislation Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229fb5fffbdcc54f08a6dbdb8403a2c19c\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022 data-id=\u0022a40f753f94ef493e9ced85a935c190dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a40f753f94ef493e9ced85a935c190dc\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice (Firearms)):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Firearms Prohibition Orders Legislation Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e5631b09eb94c12a274f2cd0b9b67d2\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220275f84c951b47aca8bd29893ab465da\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Firearms Prohibition Orders Legislation Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Justice Committee to consider the bill, and at the appropriate time, I intend to move that the bill be reported to the House by 31 July 2024.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EFor too long, gangs have been an intimidating and unwelcome presence in our communities. This Government is committed to restoring law and order and to ensuring that police have the tools that they need to take firearms out of the hands of gangs and criminals. The Firearms Prohibition Orders Legislation Amendment Bill is an omnibus bill which aims to do just that. The bill will amend the Arms Act 1983, the Search and Surveillance Act 2012, and the Sentencing Act 2002 to reform the firearms prohibition orders regime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EWe on this side of the House know that the changes we introduce here today will make a difference and will contribute as part of our wider law and order regime to making our communities safer. It does this by expanding the eligibility to cover more people in gangs, those associated with gangs, and those involved in organised crime. We will achieve this by giving the police greater search powers to enforce the orders upon those individuals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EWe have all noticed the increase in gang-related violence, public intimidation, and crimes involving illegally held firearms. We\u2019ve seen it increase significantly since 2017, where the data and the evidence tell a horrid story. The Firearms Prohibition Orders Legislation Amendment Bill is an important part of the Government\u2019s response to this increased crime in all our jurisdictions\u2014urban, provincial, and rural.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EFirearms prohibition orders\u2014sometimes referred to as FPOs\u2014are orders made by the court when offenders have committed serious violent offences. The way they work is that police make a case about an individual to the court, and if the court decides that individual meets the criteria for an order, then one will be placed upon them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022720347fec76d44dc938a57b79edb884f\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s the criteria?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b6c0bfa7bfa4ab99ef5da70aa3f34a3\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s valid for 10 years, and it prohibits the individual from holding a firearms licence. And I am quite surprised to hear from the member across the way asking me what the criteria is, seeing as it was his Government that actually brought it in in the first place and didn\u2019t do the job correctly, so we\u2019ve got to come back here and fix it up. But I will be telling them what the criteria is in a little bit. Just wait a little longer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EFirearms prohibition orders, sometimes referred to as FPOs, are orders made by the court when offenders have committed serious violent offences. And the way they work is that police make a case about an individual to the court, and if the court decides that individual meets that criteria of the order, then one will be placed upon that person.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EIt is valid for 10 years, and it prohibits the individual from holding a firearms licence, from being around or near firearms\u2014meaning they can\u2019t go on to a range or into a gun shop, as an example\u2014and the order prohibits them from being in possession of, or using, firearms. If that individual breaches the conditions of an FPO, they commit a criminal offence, and that is punishable by up to seven years in prison.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThis amendment bill will make three key changes to the firearms prohibition orders regime that I just outlined. The first change is to expand the qualifying criteria so that FPOs can be issued to gang members and other criminals who commit drug, firearms, and other violent offences. Until now, FPOs could only be issued to people convicted of certain specific violent offences, like murder, serious assault, sexual violence, and aggravated robbery. The reality is that senior gang members often end up with low-level convictions because they get their prospects or others to do the dirty work for them. The expansion in qualifying criteria means that we are adding a penalty starting point and we are including a few more Acts of Parliament as qualifiers. So any crime committed that has a penalty of one year or more under the Arms Act 1983, the Crimes Act 1961, the Misuse of Drugs Act 1975, or the Psychoactive Substances Act 2013 meets the current FPO Act\u2019s criteria of being necessary, reasonable, and appropriate to managing the risk that the offender poses to public safety will be allowed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EWhat this means in plain language: FPOs may be issued to members or associates of gangs or members of an organised criminal group that commits drug, firearms, or violent offences. The courts will be able to issue more FPOs to gang members, gang associates, and violent criminals, helping to keep firearms out of their hands, ultimately making our communities safer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EThe bill\u2019s second change is to give police new specialist search powers so that anyone subject to an FPO can be searched at any time. People with FPOs are deemed to be of the highest risk to public safety. To reduce this risk, they should be subject to the highest level of monitoring. This is why we are creating these new search powers. There is no point placing an FPO on a criminal if the police don\u2019t have the legislation that allows them to verify compliance with that order. Police need to be able to search offenders with an FPO, their vehicles, and their premises for firearms at any time to ensure that they are complying with the FPO. This change supports New Zealand Police to keep Kiwi communities safe from gun crime. We are giving police the tools that they need to ensure that these high-risk offenders are not accessing firearms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EFinally, the third change to legislation made by this bill is to establish a process for people who no longer pose a risk to apply to have the FPO modified or even removed. Currently, there is very limited ability to change or remove an FPO if a person\u2019s circumstance changes\u2014for example, if a person leaves a gang, changes their life around, and gets themselves back on track. Therefore, we propose that a recipient will be able to apply to the court for a determination as to whether the FPO should be reviewed, altered, or revoked after five years. This will ensure FPOs remain targeted only to those high-risk offenders. The review mechanism provides an incentive for people with FPOs to engage in rehabilitation and pursue law-abiding lives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003EKeeping firearms out of the hands of gang members and high-risk offenders is fundamental to upholding this Government\u2019s commitment to public safety. This bill provides police with the practical tools that they need to enforce FPOs, and it also sends a strong message to criminals and gangs that we are absolutely committed to addressing gang crime and to enforcing consequences for criminals, and we are taking back our communities. Enough is enough. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022589341662d5045a38111efd5993741c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022589341662d5045a38111efd5993741c3\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022 data-id=\u002200afd8c39c4944bc97a3cdd5b580fa4a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002200afd8c39c4944bc97a3cdd5b580fa4a\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E Well, that was quite a press release, but not much else, frankly. It is disappointing when you\u2019re trying to do something as significant as this. I\u2019m surprised that it\u2019s the ACT Party. I actually went online and looked at the ACT Party\u2019s\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209ce03760dcd48278c883f13dbe07cc1\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: It is significant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd19b2fd4979446b942ec0ccbc42ae65\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014constitution. Oh, it\u2019s good to see that the leader\u2019s come down to give the Associate Minister of Justice (Firearms) a bit of support, because she\u2019s going to need it with this piece of legislation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222817fcb452304a9dbed3c28e90051d6b\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s what we do in our party. Where\u2019s that member\u2019s support?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220219e1b3ebb64db2ba12be925880be3e\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Where\u2019s your leader?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1644cb9b3fe4205a0acc454b5052389\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014because here we have a piece of legislation which fundamentally cuts across the rights of people and intrudes on houses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EI\u2019m not one to kind of cast back too far, but it was actually in the 1700s when there was a guy called John Entick, and his house was invaded and they had a bit of a search for papers. Now, in 1765, it was an open question as to whether the Government had a licence to walk into your house and have a look around or not. In 1765, that question was closed, because it was said that no one should be subject to arbitrary search.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003ENow, we\u2019ve heard the Minister talk about why dangerous people should be subject to search, and we know that. There are really good grounds. But we know also that we have a New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, where that right found in the case of Entick v Carrington is now expressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b8a7e62d5e34e688eaaee635a509d8c\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Is this lecture available online?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244639b39f37640d8ac7414fb147d1ce4\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: It says there in section 21, \u201CEveryone has the right\u201D\u2014it\u2019s funny that the party\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b957dbf5a9c6496580e54f5d4d2521f0\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: If this speech doesn\u2019t improve, I\u2019m going back to my office!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcbfc699e5524175bd9fae1f15dbc2c6\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014who claims their individual rights are sitting there heckling when I\u2019m talking about rights, because it just goes to show the cheap shots that they\u2019ll now take. But, you know, everyone should be secure\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220763951a47c3450185ab2563de838353\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, look, it\u2019s not improving! Come on!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224019f68f24054001a116b28bdb2bdc02\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014against unreasonable search and seizure. Now, the Search and Surveillance Act has lots of powers of search, warrantless searches\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea126feac4024f7cb18edb3cf02e0bcb\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, no good. Ka kite.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b7bfcdef7f24efb938d8555fe692c7e\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and that\u2019s fine because there are certainly cases where a warrantless search is appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2a6347522ff4c89be3f0005017202c5\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: A point of order. Mr Speaker, I believe that somebody was on their feet moving whilst heckling, and that is out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ee61152f0b54c1ba65547c6a3e357ee\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: I did not notice that, but I will take that under advisement, and if people are moving through the House to not heckle as they move, as well. But thank you for that notice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227c215736-b512-41de-8f0c-6c5543fcfce7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2758a48d7ae442a9366fd622121da17\u0022\u003EHon James Shaw\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Just to take the earliest opportunity, I\u2019m afraid, Mr\u00A0Speaker, which was, during the course of that debate, there was also an interjection reflecting on the Leader of the Opposition being absent from the House and locating where he was. That is also out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223830f42fad88486793edcd13a89fe9d3\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I\u2019ll just take some advice on that. It\u2019s important that we take points of order when they arise, and not five minutes afterwards. So I take the point, and I appreciate the energy in the House\u2014I\u2019m impressed by the energy in the House\u2014and that you guys are so enthusiastic, and I commend that enthusiasm, but I would like now for the Hon Duncan Webb to continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022313aeedcab8a4177a714a750dd6ed0e0\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. The thing about this bill, though, is that the trigger for search is not only low, it\u2019s non-existent. To search someone who is subject to a firearms protection order might be justifiable but the legislation that that Minister has brought before the House is triggered by a suspicion that someone might be subject to\u2014the police don\u2019t even have to be sure. Now, look, if you want to go and check on someone\u2019s bail or parole, you can only do that if they are subject to bail or parole. That Minister wants the police to be able to have a reckon, and that is absolutely\u2014you know, the fact is that the police can check on that kind of thing pretty much instantaneously on the National Intelligence Application. I think that that\u2019s a reasonable thing for the police\u00A0to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003EBut that\u2019s not the end of it. This is not only a warrantless search on the suspicion that someone might have a firearms protection order, but do you know what the trigger is for entering someone\u2019s home, entering their car, waking up their kids? The trigger is nothing\u2014nothing. The bill before the House says that this can be done without any reasonable suspicion that any offence or breach has occurred. I must say that I read this several times because I was flabbergasted that anyone in a democracy, somewhere where the rule of law exists, would put before the House a warrantless search on the suspicion of something that existed without any reasonable\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227535d92-0798-4e04-be80-9e91b53610e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219773b9cbc0c4b098645170ebadcfdf8\u0022\u003EHon Rachel Brooking\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, look, lawyers on the other side are hanging their heads in\u00A0shame.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d7d1b8315b149ba86010e87caead939\u0022\u003EHon Dr DUNCAN WEBB\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014cause whatsoever. It is\u2014that\u2019s right; they should. They should absolutely hang their heads. It is shameful that here, in a modern democracy, we have the suggestion\u2014and, look, let me tell you what could happen: a police car goes past a supermarket car park and says, \u201CI think that guy might have a firearms protection order.\u201D So they go along and they stop that person. Do they think anything\u2019s going wrong? No, they think he\u2019s doing his shopping, but they stop him anyway because they want to. That\u2019s all they need: just to want to. So they search the car. They search him. Do you know what else they can do? They can search his partner and they can search his kids. That is what this bill does: a warrantless, without cause search on the suspicion that someone might have a firearms protection order of them, their car, and anyone in the car.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4bf626a7add4967afb6e3aebe0e830b\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022 data-id=\u00228b8f599abac9406aad6529c36b5af3f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b8f599abac9406aad6529c36b5af3f7\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL (Green\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E Every person deserves to feel safe in their homes and in their communities. Similarly, every person deserves to live free from harm and discrimination. Nobody disagrees with this premise. The Green Party agrees to that premise as well, which is why we created Te Aorerekura, which was the first all-of-Government cross-party approach to eliminating and preventing family and sexual violence in our communities. That was a really good plan that got to the root cause of making our communities safer and making sure that people could live free from harm and discrimination.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EBut what this bill does today is it hides behind a guise of making our communities safer. Over the last few days, we\u2019ve heard from the Government that they have a mandate to crack down on law and order and to make our communities safer. But what we know about the bills that are going through the House this week is that they\u2019re not going to do that, because they\u2019re targeting such a minority group in society and placing the blame squarely on that minority group in society. But this is simply virtue signalling. It does nothing to make our communities safer at all. In fact, it will have the opposite effect, and it will make things more unsafe, especially because it\u2019s adding to the increased workload of police, who are already going to have increased tensions in their communities. It just adds to the list of potential to increase hostility in our communities, between police and between gangs and other people that they might suspect to be prospective gang members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EWhat is a prospective gang member? If you look at the reasons, which this Government has not been doing at all\u2014they love to talk about gangs all day long, but they never even seek to understand why it is that people join gangs in the first place. We know why that is, because it\u2019s well documented. The Chief Science Advisor to the Prime Minister said that the reason that people join gangs is because of poverty\u2014that a majority of people are in gangs because they experience abuse at the hands of the State. Many people who are incarcerated have high rates of disabilities; they come from impoverished backgrounds. These are the reasons that people join gangs, but you\u2019re not interested in understanding that. You\u2019re not interested in channelling investment towards reducing those drivers of crime. You just want to pin it on a small group of people\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022054190f6aea14e5fb2b94970026a37d4\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Not \u201Cyou\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222c2ecbccfad4d0cb161f3e157908d13\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, not \u201Cyou\u201D; \u201Cthey\u201D. They want to pin it on people, to say they\u2019re the problem\u2014that that\u2019s the reason why we have harm in our community. We know why harm happens in our communities, and I guarantee you that this bill before us tonight does nothing to address those drivers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EI don\u2019t understand what this Government is up to when they are going to make assault-style firearms more accessible in our communities, and then, on the other hand, they are trying to do things like this bill represents. Which one is it? Is it less guns or more guns? All I can see is the gun lobby all over all of these bills that are going through the House at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EThis bill will do nothing but contribute to the over-incarceration of indigenous people in this country. We know that we have some of the most shameful statistics when it comes to indigenous people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e49c317c8c345068f3e0197fb6d2954\u0022\u003EHon Nicole McKee\u003C/span\u003E: The most shameful people\u2014standing up in Parliament, backing gangs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212cdb9a878d249f787c4e99e5b68cd1c\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL\u003C/span\u003E: M\u0101ori women\u2014M\u0101ori women\u2014a group which that member is part of, are the most highly incarcerated indigenous people in the world\u2014in the world. Congratulations, because that member\u2019s bill is going to contribute to more incarceration of indigenous peoples. What a legacy to have\u2014what a legacy to have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EWhen Moana Jackson wrote his amazing report in the 1980s, He Whaipaanga Hou, M\u0101ori women represented only 6 percent of the prison population. How is it that in only four decades, we represent more than 60 percent of the prison population? It\u2019s because of bills that have gone through this House that seek to target small groups of people, without understanding those drivers of crime, that we have that overrepresentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EThe Green Party believes that no one should have access to a firearm unless it is for hunting or pest control. We believe that safer communities can be achieved when we address the root causes of crime and gang membership, which this House has no interest in doing. Those things include a healthy, affordable home, livable incomes, meaningful mahi opportunities, good education, and high quality access to healthcare. If you read the report that the Chief Science Advisor to the Prime Minister wrote about gang membership and why people are joining gangs in the first place, it is all of those contributing factors that matter. It\u2019s not things that this bill is presenting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022 data-id=\u00220d6e955f21564a81add0c520e83bd09b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d6e955f21564a81add0c520e83bd09b\u0022\u003EJAMES MEAGER (National\u2014Rangitata):\u003C/span\u003E Unlike other members in this House, I\u00A0care about the people of Rangitata. I care about the safety of the people of Rangitata\u2014safety which is threatened daily by the presence of gangs in our community. When the pad in Washdyke was demolished by the council, firearms were present. There is no doubt that this bill goes some way to making sure that no longer happens. Good bill; good night.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022 data-id=\u0022b28f768106584c17b81a1cad0bbbcc9b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b28f768106584c17b81a1cad0bbbcc9b\u0022\u003EJAMIE ARBUCKLE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise on behalf of New\u00A0Zealand First to speak to the Firearms Prohibition Orders Legislation Amendment Bill. What I\u2019d like to say, to the Associate Minister of Justice (Firearms), is that I support this to go to the Justice Committee. It\u2019s a great place to put this bill and to actually go through some of the issues that are being raised from the other side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003EIt is about improving public safety, and when I read this bill, that is the most important thing. Our concern is improving public safety. It is about high-risk people in our communities, and the firearms prohibition orders (FPOs). It\u2019s about the three key changes that will be put forward in this bill. It is about gangs and it is about organised crime, and it\u2019s those people in gangs and organised crime that are convicted of offences under certain Acts that the Minister has already pointed out tonight. This has widened the criteria for those people where an FPO can actually now be issued.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003EThe second part of this bill is around the right to challenge, and that is something that, through the select committee stage, I think will be a good discussion, around that five-year review process. So that is something that is new, and I think that is something that is a really good part of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003EBut the most important part is the third part of the bill, and it\u2019s around our police. It\u2019s around the police being able to search, and being able to search people who are a high risk to the public. Having that ability to search people who have been issued with an FPO is something that I think is a really good thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a910e826-1964-4e6b-bdb6-958820a11514\u0022\u003EAlso, in our communities, we have people who will be able to search a vehicle and\u00A0actually make the public safer. That\u2019s what this is all about. It\u2019s about improving public safety around high-risk people in our community. I therefore commend this bill\u00A0to the House. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022 data-id=\u0022971e9e449818481a88cfe384323e688d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022971e9e449818481a88cfe384323e688d\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Te Tai Tokerau):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te P\u012Bka; t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou. So this kaupapa is one of a heavy nature, and I wish to recognise the nature of this bill to begin with. I recognise this to begin with because it is the whakapapa. It is the context behind the original development of this bill that I will discuss now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EWe have become so far removed from the whakapapa of this bill and from why this law was first established that I stand here to remind us all of the foundation of our debate this evening. Next week, on March 15th, it will be the fifth anniversary of the Christchurch mosque attacks that targeted our Muslim community and claimed the lives of 51 innocent people. To those wh\u0101nau and to that community, I acknowledge that this is a loss that likely remains unhealed. This attack was endured at the hands of an ideology known as white supremacy. This is an ideology that we dance around, that we do not mention within the walls of this House, and yet it is in this bill, embedded into its very foundation. I\u2019ll repeat the words \u201Cwhite supremacy\u201D. It was Labour who originally introduced laws in response to the attacks in Christchurch as a means to justify the implementation of Operation Tauwhiro and Operation Cobalt. These operations targeted criminals, criminal gangs, and organised crime groups. This was their response to the attack: to target and focus on groups who were ultimately not responsible for the events of March 15th and to those who do not hold the same ideology: white supremacy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003ESo this is how a colonial Government responds when a white supremacist terrorist is inspired by a world view that they have enabled, to redirect their focus on to\u2014guess what?\u2014gangs, of which M\u0101ori make up the majority. They will distract us from how we got here, as they do today, but we shall never forget March 15th. So this brings us here today to say where the coalition Government builds and develops on from the foundation of white supremacy. Because of the actions inspired by white supremacy, the Government, with this law, targets gang members, aka M\u0101ori and their associates, ultimately targeting M\u0101ori, which, no doubt, will lead to the increased incarceration of our people, continuing the cycle of trauma in our communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EWhile the component of the bill I discuss now will certainly be discussed in greater detail in the days to come, I want to address the amendment of the Search and Surveillance Act. This Act will give police the power to conduct warrantless searches without cause. One of my whanaunga recently got arrested; I think it was called a \u201Csearching while brown\u201D situation. It will give the police the power to arrest\u2014and on a person that police suspect is subject to a firearms prohibition order. So what this means is that police will be able to invade our homes\u2014our homes\u2014and conduct searches without reasonable grounds to suspect that any offence has been, is being, or will be committed. Imagine how that\u2019s going to turn out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EThe message this sends to our people, again, is this: we do not matter. Our safety, our security, and our place in Aotearoa as tangata whenua is of no value to this Government. It sends the message to our tamariki, to our mokopuna, that we M\u0101ori will continue to have our oppressors searching our homes\u2014what a great life! Searching our M\u0101ori identities for something they cannot find within themselves. I leave it to the members of this House to consider what that something is, and I completely reject the position of this bill, and absolutely cannot commend it. T\u0113n\u0101 koe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022 data-id=\u00220735c78bf0664331b4ea02f22a0d78ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002289809535-e289-43e8-ad08-668cf3046ffb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220735c78bf0664331b4ea02f22a0d78ab\u0022\u003ECAMERON BREWER (National\u2014Upper Harbour):\u003C/span\u003E We are here tonight for one reason. Some reasons have been put for why we\u2019re here tonight, but we are here tonight because of the abject failure of the last six years to get on top of law and order. Serious offending through the roof. Retail offending through the roof. Youth offending through the roof. The gang numbers are through the roof, and if we look at some of the stats out of police districts: gang numbers in Auckland City Police District, up 87 percent in six years; Waitemat\u0101, up 74 percent; Wellington, up 124\u00A0percent. New Zealanders have had an absolute gutsful. They want us back in control. We tried six police Ministers in six years, and all we saw was failure and all we saw was soaring crime. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022 data-id=\u0022b63d22cc122a4171a5028f7271c3703f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b63d22cc122a4171a5028f7271c3703f\u0022\u003EHon GINNY ANDERSEN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. Look, in situations like this, I think it\u2019s always good to go back to a good problem definition and look at what the proposed solution is doing to that. And that\u2019s exactly also what the Police have done quite a good job with, with the supplementary analysis report on firearm prohibition orders (FPOs), which is tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003ESo the problem definition in this paper states that \u201CViolent crime involving firearms is a significant source of harm in New Zealand.\u201D We agree with that, and we agree that we would like to do something about that problem. \u201CThe objective\u201D, as it says in here, \u201Cof the FPO regime is to improve public safety by reducing the likelihood that individuals who are high risk of violent offending are able to access firearms\u201D, something that we also agree with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe problem comes when it goes to assessing what the solution to this problem is, and Police are pretty frank in their advice: \u201CGiven the newness of the FPO regime\u201D, the one brought in by the previous Government, \u201Cwhich only took effect on 15 November 2022, Police consider that it\u2019s too early to evaluate if it is improving public safety. However\u201D\u2014this is the good bit\u2014\u201Cthere is a perception expressed in the National Party 2023 election manifesto and subsequent ministerial discussions, that several legislative design features of the current framework limit the efficiency and the effectiveness of the regime.\u201D So\u00A0Police say, \u201CWe do not know whether the previous regime is working because it\u2019s too early\u201D and, furthermore, the only evidence we have is a \u201Cperception\u201D expressed in the National Party election manifesto, and that is the basis of the law change that we are here tonight debating.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe second point I\u2019d like to make is in relation to the evidence for change. Police consider it is too early to properly assess and, in addition, the reason why it\u2019s too early to assess it is that the majority of those individuals who now have an FPO placed upon them are in prison; so we don\u2019t know how that will impact upon them, because they\u2019re presently incarcerated. So we are introducing new powers tonight, new ways to a regime which is unable to be assessed largely because all of the people it would currently apply to are in prison. The problem definition of these changes, therefore, has limited evidence to support\u2014there is \u201Cvery little baseline evidence to support future monitoring of whether these changes have been effective.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThen it goes on to look at the risks. It\u2019s really important to look at the risks associated with proceeding with the current regime when there is no evidence or basis for changing it. \u201CFew FPOs are issued as the impact on rights mean that they are only considered appropriate in extraordinary cases of risk to public safety. Evidence obtained by police in FPO searches may be ruled inadmissible where search powers are ruled to have been used in an unreasonable manner. Crown liability for damages may arise if FPO search powers are ruled to be used in an unreasonable manner.\u201D So the problem is it\u2019s still administered by the courts. You still need a judge to put one of these new things on somebody and so what the Police advice is saying is there may well be reluctance by the courts to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EAnd the fourth point I\u2019d like to say, and this is one of my favourites\u2014it\u2019s titled up \u201CAssumptions Underpinning Impact Assessment\u201D. So the whole impact assessment is on assumptions: \u201CThere is an assumption that the current FPO regime is insufficient to mitigate firearms violence or control gang crime, which has not been rigorously tested. Given the newness of this FPO regime, it is difficult to assess if it is working effectively, or whether amendments are needed to increase its efficacy.\u201D So that\u2019s interesting. Then, on top of that, we have a coalition Government who\u2019s making semi-automatic weapons more readily available to the general public. So you\u2019re introducing new powers on controlling gun control while bringing back semi-automatic weapons: loopy, pretty damn loopy, I say. It is unbelievable that you can try and trumpet that you\u2019re doing a tough-on-crime approach by bringing in something but, at the same time, you\u2019re making available semi-automatic weapons, which will find their way into the hands of the criminal underworld whether you like it or not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003EThe last point I\u2019d like to make is the impact on M\u0101ori and the Treaty. It says, \u201CAs these proposals will disproportionately affect M\u0101ori, under the active protection and partnership principles there is a strong Te Tiriti o Waitangi argument base that M\u0101ori should at the very least be consulted. However, due to time constraints, no consultation with M\u0101ori has been done.\u201D But we won\u2019t need to worry about the active principle of partnership and the Treaty principles because ACT has a bill with that as well to get rid of those as well. So, Madam Speaker, this bill is a joke.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022 data-id=\u00228aa3d01c615544919e7481d0947e1ab8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228aa3d01c615544919e7481d0947e1ab8\u0022\u003EPAULO GARCIA (National\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E The Firearms Prohibition Orders Legislation Amendment Bill is a crackdown measure on gangs, their associates, and criminals. It is a bill that clearly sends the message that gun crime will not be tolerated and confirms our commitment to all our local communities that we take their safety seriously. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad192e0f51074cb8826640278495cdf6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad192e0f51074cb8826640278495cdf6\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker, for the chance, at 11.40 p.m. at night, to say a few words on the Firearms Prohibition Orders Legislation Amendment Bill. And it\u2019s kind of a shame that we\u2019re having this important conversation at this hour in the evening under urgency. I would have thought some due respect would have been at a more timely part of the day where people had the opportunity to maybe tune in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262828428-6565-42b4-bd4d-fa3b12531f88\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cd40d605bc64d98a23966b5dd46fe03\u0022\u003ESimon Court\u003C/span\u003E: Well, maybe if there were still FPOs, then you could have negotiated that, but we got rid of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225939ae64ea624cf0847913e9c8c9b549\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN\u003C/span\u003E: You know, 7.30, 8.30, is usually prime time for TV watching, isn\u2019t it, Mr Court? But, you know, 11.30, people have watched the news, they\u2019re on to their Netflix, and they\u2019re probably off to bed, but never mind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002262ff759d-9586-405a-a6e6-208ad65adeb5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c50951b4293459898605e934c8821b5\u0022\u003ETangi Utikere\u003C/span\u003E: Why are we still here?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022955fc240e89742d3b8bd6701a4b17d4e\u0022\u003EDr TRACEY McLELLAN\u003C/span\u003E: I have no idea. But this bill makes, as my colleagues have said, three changes to the Firearms Prohibition Orders Legislation Act. The first one\u2014and they\u2019re all quite benign on the surface. The first one amends the Arms Act 1983 to extend the group of persons against whom a firearms prohibition order (FPO) may be made; amends the Arms Act 1983 to establish a new review process that enables persons subject to an FPO to apply to the court to have that order varied, perhaps modified, or even revoked; and it amends the Search and Surveillance Act 2012 to introduce a new, without cause, search power that enables police to conduct searches in respect of a person who the police suspect on reasonable grounds may be subject to an FPO.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EBefore coming down to the House, I listened to my colleague the Hon Dr Duncan Webb, who is a professor of law, talk about the history of\u2014I think it was way back in the 1700s and there was some story about a particular man who, and I don\u2019t profess to have the legal intellect that that Dr Webb has, but I know that it was really important that not since that time have we thought about engaging these measures. So that goes to show what a potentially ill-conceived and ill-thought-out piece of legislation this is. And, look, the reality is that this doesn\u2019t go any way to resolving the actual problem, does it? You know, the National Party, pre-election, went on and on and on about the concept, and they campaigned really hard on resolving the gang problem, and this doesn\u2019t go any way whatsoever to doing anything about crime and anything about the issue of gangs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003ESo, as we\u2019ve said, the proposed changes to the FPO add almost nothing. And that\u2019s a bit of a shame because there was an opportunity to actually start to put together a suite of measures that could have tackled the issues at hand. But this does very little, and as my colleague the Hon Ginny Andersen has just said, you put that together with the fact that there\u2019s loosening up of gun laws on the other hand, and it\u2019s a bit of a recipe for disaster. So the FPO laws are already in place, and they work\u2014they work well\u2014and the Government is really, really planning to make military style semi-automatic weapons more widely available. And we know that the police have advised that they will end up in the wrong hands. So there\u2019s a couple of just practical things that we have to think about. How will a person be identified as a gang member? What is the process for demonstrating that they\u2019re no longer a gang member or they\u2019re no longer affiliated to that gang? And what does good behaviour mean with regard to actually getting off an FPO earlier?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003EWhen you think about it, it\u2019s almost laughable. We knew the \u201Ccoalition of cuts\u201D would cut services, and we\u2019ve talked about that throughout the evening in various other ways, but now we\u2019re actually talking about cutting safety and cutting protections from our communities. So that\u2019s not really very good. Madam Speaker\u2014Mr Speaker, my apologies; as I said, it\u2019s very late. The firearms prohibition orders, as we\u2019ve said, are really a back-door way of planning to introduce greater access to military semi-automatic weapons, and I think that that\u2019s something we have to be really wary of, in conjunction with these other measures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003ENow, ACT is putting our police in harm\u2019s way, and I don\u2019t say that lightly, but I think that that\u2019s actually quite justified. The police have already got a dangerous job, as we know, without the risk of having assault weapons pulled on them during circumstances where these FPO orders are being amended. And I just want to finish my contribution by saying that Nicola Willis made a commitment that National would continue to support a ban on those weapons after the 15 March attack. So clearly this is a Government very divided.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022 data-id=\u00224ea473c872a34319a9526cbb06c79c84\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002239b9bac1-a992-4ccf-a473-9591aeb3a298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ea473c872a34319a9526cbb06c79c84\u0022\u003ERIMA NAKHLE (National\u2014Takanini):\u003C/span\u003E Too often, senior gang members have been getting away with their peddling of misery while the young recruits\u2014those that are often lured to the gang lifestyle for the reasons mentioned by my colleague Tamatha Paul, which I acknowledge\u2014are the ones that are usually dealing with the stronger sentences. So this bill helps rectify this imbalance, and it will help people in Takanini, in Mount Roskill, in West Auckland, in South Auckland, and around New Zealand feel much safer. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002275f2362a7e594d8a9d24843bf8e05fd6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Firearms Prohibition Orders Legislation Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001489\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022a31d7e5fc650454690399e47ad0c97fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a31d7e5fc650454690399e47ad0c97fc\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the Firearms Prohibition Orders Legislation Amendment Bill be considered by the Justice Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Justice Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022743399dad751421d96e02ac93010073c\u0022\u003EInstruction to Justice Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022 data-id=\u00225625aa3dbf774105ae5e2f69096765d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258baa209-edaf-42a5-92d6-b2613c144bfb\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225625aa3dbf774105ae5e2f69096765d7\u0022\u003EHon NICOLE McKEE (Associate Minister of Justice (Firearms)):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Firearms Prohibition Orders Legislation Amendment Bill be reported to the House by 31 July 2024.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ed9c71d0e70a48e1ac42695d30e2b28d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 14; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca61e2571e704df993242eb9ffa6a5aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca61e2571e704df993242eb9ffa6a5aa\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The House stands adjourned until 2 p.m. tomorrow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20240305147694cc5bbc4c6685838612bb4ffba9001496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 11.46 p.m. (Wednesday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"