"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a75caf31711f424595c6541c234ca84c\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 21 MAY 2024\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022646dac74e2ce475390ce5d56964b703d\u0022\u003ETUESDAY, 21 MAY 2024\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000002\u0022\u003EThe Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022982858c5fe7e472f8b0fdd75dd6be354\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226c5f5e50b6cd4cb4bd50ab985f5fa00f\u0022\u003EKarakia/Prayers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00223c62f423aa844b36a05ad97173a4426d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c62f423aa844b36a05ad97173a4426d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Almighty God, we give thanks for the blessings which have been bestowed on us. Laying aside all personal interests, we acknowledge the King and pray for guidance in our deliberations, that we may conduct the affairs of this House with wisdom, justice, mercy, and humility for the welfare and peace of New Zealand. Amen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226c43657220024043985a470bdfdb5689\u0022\u003EObituaries\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002274c8a8bfeaef4d0982ffa7d5594ae4dd\u0022\u003EHon Colin James Moyle\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00229c1bdd89cc354f5e82e5687e83bf83a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c1bdd89cc354f5e82e5687e83bf83a4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, I regret to inform the House of the death on 11 May 2024 of the Hon Colin James Moyle CBE, who represented the electorates of Manukau and M\u0101ngere from 1963 to 1977, and Hunua and \u014Ctara from 1981 to 1990. During his time in the House, he held several ministerial portfolios, including agriculture, fisheries, forests, and science. I desire, on behalf of this House, to express our sense of loss and sympathy with the relatives of the late former member. I now ask members to stand with me to observe a period of silence as a mark of respect to his memory.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EMembers stood as a mark of respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002274ea404342c54c98b1309f2ab6566078\u0022\u003EPETITIONS, PAPERS, SELECT COMMITTEE REPORTS, AND INTRODUCTION OF BILLS\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002247b420244f0b4163bb7d33ee9ecf9314\u0022\u003EPETITIONS, PAPERS, SELECT COMMITTEE REPORTS, AND INTRODUCTION OF BILLS\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00225349b7e48acd426589bb0800d0d8535d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225349b7e48acd426589bb0800d0d8535d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There are no petitions, but\u2014[Interruption] Sorry? What was that? Well, this is very helpful: I\u2019ve picked up the wrong piece of paper. Petitions have been delivered to the Clerk for presentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022108ab554591345eeab422dfd1fa318bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022108ab554591345eeab422dfd1fa318bf\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EPetition of Newton Santos requesting that the House ask the Minister of Immigration to let Newton and Nubia Santos stay in the country\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Epetition of Mark Baldwin requesting that the House urge Medsafe to remove the prescribing restrictions on Clozapine, Dexamphetamine, and Methylphenidate for nurse practitioners\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Epetition of Fabio Reis requesting that the House urge the Associate Minister of Immigration to grant residency to Fabio Reis and his dependent son\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Epetition of Greg Rzesniowiecki requesting that the House urge the Government to reject any International Health Regulations amendments and pandemic treaty until the findings and recommendations of the rescoped COVID-19 royal commission are received\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Epetition of Kristin Davis requesting that the House urge the Government to review the decision made by Health New Zealand not to treat in a public setting Meila Davis\u2019 osteosarcoma with the EVD product; and note that 1,437 people have signed a similar online petition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00223289302f69954ba0b659817bafa8e71d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223289302f69954ba0b659817bafa8e71d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those petitions stand referred to the Petitions Committee. Ministers have delivered papers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022e894a19471c846c29a3245dfb25b79bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e894a19471c846c29a3245dfb25b79bf\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EReserve Bank of New Zealand Financial Stability Report May 2024\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EGovernment response to the Environment Committee briefing into the golden clam incursion in the Waikato.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022d74f60f529754f8fb7fc95dcf589e3e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d74f60f529754f8fb7fc95dcf589e3e4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I present the Register of Pecuniary and Other Specified Interests of Members of Parliament: Summary of annual returns as at 31 January 2024. I also present the Report of the Controller and Auditor-General entitled Regional councils\u2019 relationships with iwi and hap\u016B for freshwater management - a follow-up report. Those papers are published under the authority of the House. Select committee reports have been presented.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022073dbaba95314868948205d8458ccd25\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022073dbaba95314868948205d8458ccd25\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EReport of the Education and Workforce Committee on the review briefing on the 2022-23 annual review of the Education Review Office\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee on the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee Scrutiny Plan for the 54th Parliament\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Governance and Administration Committee on the review briefing on the 2022-23 annual review of Statistics New Zealand\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee on the:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EMinistry of M\u0101ori Development Te Puni K\u014Dkiri, Long-term Insights Briefing 2023\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBItemSL1\u0022\u003EWhakat\u014Dhea Claims Settlement Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereports of the Petitions Committee on the petition of Social Justice Aotearoa: Change Section 52 of the Corrections Act\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003Ereport of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee on the briefing on the pedestrian crossing in Williamson Avenue in Grey Lynn, Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022e76bc2c088d842b68aa4085260100737\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e76bc2c088d842b68aa4085260100737\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The bill is set down for second reading. The briefings, the select committee scrutiny plan, and the Long-term Insights Briefing are set down for consideration. The Clerk has been informed of the introduction of bills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022\u0022 data-id=\u0022373173dfe4da472f89a1b5d2a02b5a76\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022373173dfe4da472f89a1b5d2a02b5a76\u0022\u003ECLERK\u003C/span\u003E: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EOranga Tamariki (Repeal of Section 7AA) Amendment Bill, introduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ECustomer and Product Data Bill, introduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003EResidential Tenancies Amendment Bill, introduction\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003ELocal Government (Electoral Legislation and M\u0101ori Wards and M\u0101ori Constituencies) Amendment Bill, introduction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002212441499fa5243d29485ea3b297c0908\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002212441499fa5243d29485ea3b297c0908\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Those bills are set down for first reading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220e059d674a6e488ead39f7a302e442e7\u0022\u003EUrgent Debates\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bb06d6d440884fd5a97783ad88acc13e\u0022\u003EK\u0101inga Ora\u2014Government Response to Review\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022f05f5eddfe93465bba960cc466f0c59b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f05f5eddfe93465bba960cc466f0c59b\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members, I\u2019ve received a letter from the Hon Kieran McAnulty seeking to debate, under Standing Order 399, the Government\u2019s response to the review of K\u0101inga Ora. This is a particular case of recent occurrence for which there is ministerial responsibility. The matter does warrant the attention of the House and the Government today. Therefore, after oral questions, I will call on the Hon Kieran McAnulty to move that the House take note of a matter of urgent public importance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229b9514c1e9c3496ea9bbc217dbe815c4\u0022\u003EOral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228fd1e2dcfb4c4a3da5ea3aec90abe0e7\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ad2bd48fa7174d499d8ef266950b9533\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6 to Minister, 9 May\u2014Amended Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0d8be7db8404c87b826187eff71e152\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0d8be7db8404c87b826187eff71e152\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister for Energy):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek leave to make a personal explanation to correct a statement I made regarding low residual notices in question No. 6 on 9 May 2024.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245ef4a0413eb48f9b401843850ab02fd\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d285b81f37844cefbf9b722e5c8796d4\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: In response to Ms Woods\u2019 second supplementary to oral question No. 6 on 9 May 2024, I showed and explained a graph that displayed the number of low residual customer advice notices issued by Transpower since 2012. The graph displayed data provided to me at the time by Transpower. I have since been made\u00A0aware that the data did not reflect the full picture. Prior to 2019, low residual customer advice notices weren\u2019t listed as a separate category. Prior to 2019, only warning and grid emergency notices were issued. Transpower has since reviewed the historical data to separate out the notices that relate to low residual situations. The trend remains clear. In\u00A0recent years, there has been an increase in the number of low residual situations across\u00A0the network. However, I apologise to the House for any confusion caused by the graph I presented in the House, and I am taking this first possible opportunity to correct the record. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00227210fdc2c8e74b50a931ebd1f65edbf6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227210fdc2c8e74b50a931ebd1f65edbf6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227f71653109474b168c369235648c052c\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022 data-id=\u002219f3477d27994e3eae1227822d7719c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002219f3477d27994e3eae1227822d7719c6\u0022\u003ECHL\u00D6E SWARBRICK (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u0022c780547703284f1884f6bf753dc5c01d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c780547703284f1884f6bf753dc5c01d\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, and especially our action to fix the legacy of misery and financial mismanagement left by the previous Government at K\u0101inga Ora (KO). Having loaded KO up with billions of dollars in debt and wasted time on broken policies like KiwiBuild, rents soared, social housing wait-lists exploded, and we have more children in motels on their watch. We\u2019re taking action to fix K\u0101inga Ora, we\u2019re holding unruly tenants to account, and we\u2019re cutting red tape so that we can deliver much more housing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242fed7739fa2481db3e6a7995f674edc\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Is he aware Auckland Council have identified five lead indicators that his Government has direct control over, including the return of no-cause evictions, which are likely to increase homelessness in our largest city?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d886cfd523274b14bc2d4b270f98ea79\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: What we are determined to do is increase the supply of rental properties, and there is a range of actions that we\u2019ve undertaken: restoring interest deductibility, removing the brightline test back to two years, and\u2014importantly\u2014getting the balance right in tenancy laws between landlords and tenants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022866ccb5364d14dabb13a8874351de648\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Can he guarantee no one will be made homeless by his Government\u2019s decision to reinstate no-cause evictions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5d21e84ce68475aa46da66bfa09588a\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, what I can guarantee is that we are working incredibly hard to make sure that we avoid homelessness in this country. Part of that process is making sure we increase the supply of rental properties so that people can actually access and rent a house. That is why we\u2019re very committed to making sure we increase the supply of rental properties in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fa701b468c847f792b3e9887957b3b0\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Can he guarantee that no one will be made homeless by his Government\u2019s directive on tenant behaviour that Auckland Council says means that they are \u201Cexpecting K\u0101inga Ora evictions\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281386388fc8e4530950277da46130235\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, what is important is we are getting the balance right in our tenancy laws so that we encourage landlords to put more houses up and make them available to more tenants so we avoid homelessness.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251b6a7c9b1454433a2b7c7b31d94ed87\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister unwilling or unable to say that his Government\u2019s policies will increase homelessness in this country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222eff2ee2842244e2931749e368fc708a\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: What I am willing to say is that we have a housing crisis in New Zealand, and\u2014unlike the Labour and the Green Government that did nothing about it, and outcomes got a lot worse\u2014we are working each and every aspect to increase the supply of houses available, houses available to rent, and social housing supply, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022dbaac12b-3efa-4d95-a08d-f0f637a48bab\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7e7b892cfb54fb286115fddc8254f5c\u0022\u003EChl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister proud of his decision to hand $2.9 billion in tax cuts to landlords on the one hand, but on the other hand, making decisions that will by all accounts increase homelessness in this country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a19adc74c134b8dbb26ebc64dcecd29\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I am very proud that our Government is actually going to tackle the housing crisis we have in this country and homelessness. I would love that member to come in and support our efforts, because what we\u2019re doing, actually, by unwinding interest deductibility is we\u2019re making a lot more houses available for renters. We\u2019re putting downward pressure on rents, and I\u2019d encourage the member to join us and pass that legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e3b5ec23ee3d431f85e8715c8c1b40ea\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022 data-id=\u00229f0bf17447034c548db9c974e43cf0cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229f0bf17447034c548db9c974e43cf0cc\u0022\u003EMILES ANDERSON (National\u2014Waitaki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What announcements has she made about the operating allowance for Budget 2024?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1eae3d308a34893b5b2bb060177b383\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1eae3d308a34893b5b2bb060177b383\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I said in the Budget Policy Statement that the operating allowance for Budget 2024 will be less than $3.5 billion\u2014$3.5 billion, members may recall, was the operating allowance for Budget 2024 set by the previous Government. I will announce the actual number on Budget day, but I can confirm today to the House that it will be under $3.5 billion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a2dd2053ca14616af8fbf96b8e118cd\u0022\u003EMiles Anderson\u003C/span\u003E: What does the operating allowance cover?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254c4e42851724fa88d51042fe4acbb94\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The operating allowance is the amount available in the Budget for discretionary spending and revenue initiatives. Importantly, allowances are a net concept. They include savings as well as spending. The operating allowance in Budget 2024 will cover spending increases and revenue reductions, as well as offsetting savings initiatives and some revenue-raising. The total of all of these adds up to less than $3.5\u00A0billion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223a38d2a1f574a4f8c4d6c79e8e56c5c\u0022\u003EMiles Anderson\u003C/span\u003E: Will tax relief be funded through savings?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022848e6856937748d7949a16f361f224b7\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. Tax relief in the Budget will be fully funded through savings and revenue initiatives. These savings and revenue initiatives are the same as those in the National Party\u2019s tax plan, with some adjustments to reflect coalition agreements. There will also be other savings in the Budget. These savings will be directed towards Government priorities, including front-line public services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229eca766d50ce448cba73a13947b129f9\u0022\u003EMiles Anderson\u003C/span\u003E: How does a less than $3.5 billion operating allowance compare to those in recent years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cad9cf757e6e4e39b40a87a1d7198c6e\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: The allowance for Budget 2022, which members will recall was the year when inflation hit 7.3 percent\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f2b64daa3b040daac389a508795af48\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: How much?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225924e8aa39724a51b1d5c1a8d7ace1e9\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: \u20147.3 percent. The allowance in that Budget was $5.9\u00A0billion, plus more than $6 billion over the forecast period for the cost of living payment and other spending outside allowances. The allowance for Budget 2023 was relatively modest by comparison, at only $4.8\u00A0billion. So the allowance in Budget 2024 of less than $3.5 billion, no matter how less than, is a lot more fiscally responsible than those delivered in the last few irresponsible Budgets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e215a5508da14c498e6109a411ec3c6c\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022 data-id=\u0022d7b60ddb6b2242eeb468e1fc158e0265\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d7b60ddb6b2242eeb468e1fc158e0265\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRIS HIPKINS (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all of his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7556199d5464c1e9bcc3bd5cba0620e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7556199d5464c1e9bcc3bd5cba0620e\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, and especially our action to shift money out of the back office and the bureaucracy, and into the front line. For the size of the public service surge in recent years, we\u2019re getting money into the areas where it can make a big difference\u2014things like structured literacy, permanent funding for Pharmac drugs, and big investments in law and order to keep our streets and our people safe. After years of financial mismanagement, we know a good Government can invest in the front line, support families with the costs of living, and get spending back under control. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224889f53c1afb462ab11b53f2378c67d0\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Will he guarantee that there will be at least as many State houses at the end of this parliamentary term as there were at the start of it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e4c214895e04bf6b234bfe825453e9f\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: What I can guarantee is that there will be an increase in the number of social houses in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a26af0c02b244f60bf0965498f763879\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he accept that there was a net loss of State houses under the last National Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b064f7684dd45628d7cb83e13ea1138\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I can tell you what we\u2019re not going to do is we\u2019re not planning to sell off 10,000 State houses, because your Government\u2014that member\u2019s Government\u2014borrowed $10 billion more, and loaded that up on K\u0101inga Ora (KO), and they quadrupled the social house wait-list, and they had more children growing up in motels. So we\u2019re going to solve the problem, we\u2019re going to fix KO\u2014it\u2019s a badly run organisation. We\u2019re going to fix it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227690e23ef48749c4b006fd1a283f5c8a\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. It was a very straightforward question, and the Prime Minister hasn\u2019t addressed it. I asked him whether he accepted that there was a net loss of State houses under the last National Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022237de2eaabfd46f89d16b83c96e7c64b\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s not responsible for the last National Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228659bfbb57c2417189de8d2160197d21\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, he\u2019s got absolutely no responsibility for the last National Government. [Interruption] Hang on, just calm down. Point of order, the Rt Hon Chris Hipkins.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002214287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df5b0c0c72564a769211eb647d63441a\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Just so we\u2019re clear, so you\u2019re ruling\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd3f88865b24421ab1d0169e7d62f5b0\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Now, hang on a minute. Just\u2014calm.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ed8d67521bc4f1989be8a8a2a28ccc3\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: So, you\u2019re ruling that the Prime Minister is not responsible for the actions of the previous Governments\u2014just to be very clear?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f112590a6dc434f8333c023d17ebab5\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That would be a very serious ruling, so it\u2019s not one that I want to make off the cuff. So I\u2019ll take a bit of time to consider that. I hope that doesn\u2019t inhibit your questioning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fe86751955d49b7877998436fe1aaed\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Perhaps, while you\u2019re considering it, Mr Speaker, you could ask the Prime Minister to address the question, then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022566083a5c1b943de873059755b054b77\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, why don\u2019t you ask the question again, and then we\u2019ll see how well it is addressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc980204a038461d9107a2aa7676c50e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Does he accept that there was a net loss of State houses under the last National Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225922fd9bd3104cbcb1e0bfbb619add9f\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I hope that member would understand\u2014I\u2019ve been here for three and a bit years, so I wasn\u2019t part of that last National Government. But what I can tell you is that the Government that I am leading\u2014this coalition Government\u2014is incredibly focused on making sure we expand social housing in New Zealand. We have a supply problem created by that member and his former Government, and we\u2019re not loading up $10 billion on KO in six years, we\u2019re not quadrupling the wait-list, and we\u2019re not putting kids into motels. We\u2019re going to solve the problem that he created.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a99989aa172f492e9c8d7f9c57c086bf\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if the Prime Minister is prepared to accept that allegation, can he also accept that replacement of a promise of 100,000 homes was met by 14,000 homes\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022202db8f14fc144c99ad8c531694e3116\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Hang on a minute. Wait on\u2014wait on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe26dce1c8a9453e921671dd482d9b76\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and was adequately inadequate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226938ee8b94a94671b0381173d6d5fbdd\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There was no allegation. There\u2019s no allegation made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228aecf83193f3437fa314d423aabff8d9\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. First of all, Mr Speaker, you should\u2019ve never taken the question in the first place, because there\u2019s no way any Prime Minister is responsible for a previous Government in which he wasn\u2019t a Prime Minister or a Minister in the first place. That\u2019s number one. I can\u2019t understand why this rule is being argued about here, and if Mr Hipkins doesn\u2019t know that, he should catch up, read the Standing Orders, and take some senior advice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224aef98d94dba4d3aaad49e1d9973dfbc\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I\u2019m sure he\u2019ll appreciate the advice that you\u2019ve given him via the Speaker. I don\u2019t think that was a reasonable point of order, though\u2014it disrupts the flow of the speaker\u2019s\u2014[Interruption] Well, you took a supplementary question that wasn\u2019t a reasonable question. There was no allegation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243af016babfd4ace9d489dc24a1318c7\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with the then National Party housing spokesperson, Nicola Willis, who said, in 2020, \u201CThe Government needs to build state houses, and what I would like to see is the Government continuing to build state houses. That\u2019s absolutely a policy that either Labour or National needs to continue in the years ahead\u201D; if so, how many additional State houses will he commit to building?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fca931256a5447298572e6361e97e489\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: We are going to continue to build State houses, and\u2014and, not or\u2014we\u2019re going to continue to power up community housing providers to build more social houses as well. The aggregate, one plus one, is going to equal a lot more social houses available. But I can tell you, under that member, and the way that he left K\u0101inga Ora, they are faced with a sell-off of 10,200 houses in order to make the finances work because of the mess that you loaded them up with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ccdcdb3318204ea38085c5fe7da7211e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Will he honour the pledge signed by Nicola Willis committing to build 1,000 additional State houses in Auckland each year\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f92d1e0e4454cf3972407ba4310f47b\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Social houses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260e7f029cee945429080da148217adbc\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014if not, why not? State houses\u2014the pledge says, \u201CState houses\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a73bb0ae199d42e295c1599384d410ac\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: We are very happy to honour that commitment with the change that it\u2019s social housing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282bf8581079247c6afcd84134cd66fea\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Will he rule out extracting a dividend from K\u0101inga Ora as the last National Government did?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022257627f01e5e4dfdacc9fd371e3fc5aa\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. But what I\u2019m also going to say to you: what we are ruling out is actually a board that has mismanaged K\u0101inga Ora, a Minister that mismanaged K\u0101inga Ora. We are going to fix it. How on earth do you have a board that doesn\u2019t even have a financial statement? How do you actually have a board that just accepts the Government\u2019s going to tip $10\u00A0billion and load $10 billion of debt up on KO, making it not financially sustainable and leading to a sell-off\u2014as that previous Government planned\u2014of 10,200 State houses? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294cd1ff592f04820869b2ad92fe60168\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. The comment the Prime Minister made at the end of his question is blatantly incorrect. He is deliberately misleading the House. There is absolutely no evidence the previous Government was even contemplating that decision. The previous Government received no advice that suggested that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229671389bfdf346e094b6cb1d619033d4\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll just tell the House: while we\u2019re hearing points of order\u2014I didn\u2019t want to interrupt the member making that point of order, but they are heard in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce2b8fe6d4bc44b2863c83dbcd518d26\u0022\u003EHon Nicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the member has made a very serious accusation and one only has to look at the information and facts that are in the public domain to understand that it is correct. And, actually, what the member opposite should reflect on is if there were statements created that required 10,000 homes to be sold, either one of two things is correct: either that was the policy of the last Government, or they were so utterly incoherent and incapable\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a105a1e346e4c80bdc530feadb6d31e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, that\u2019s enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e72f64e8fd3a42c190fad64fa335fe1c\u0022\u003EHon Nicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014that they weren\u2019t aware\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282de1e6a80de4760bc15583286c16333\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is enough. I just want to make this point; it might help. There is a provision, if people believe that the House has been misled, to, in the first instance, write to the Speaker so that it can be established one way or the other. And I\u2019m open to that, obviously. The Hon Kieran McAnulty, a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222dca210e671f4b46b6ac000fd59db06f\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much. The point that the Rt Hon Chris Hipkins was making is that there was an accusation made that the previous Government had advice available to them. The Minister of Finance has confirmed to me in written questions that she commissioned that advice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202a05f67e37f4a31aa320456e7edf101\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, look, I\u2019m unable, sitting here, to determine the right or wrong of this. There is a mechanism\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8e6fb3c9b14419880880f3a6f45fb96\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: What? That\u2019s not right. You need to get across your brief, jeez.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022842d7ad2ee9049b89c3a86fa6ea485ae\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and I think that should be the default position for those who are concerned. [Interruption] I beg your pardon? No, I\u2019m happy to hear if you want to add to the debate somehow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9f5bbe46fc1400fa50e520cc85487d1\u0022\u003EHon Chris Bishop\u003C/span\u003E: No, I\u2019m just talking to Kieran.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228ea4df9418f4793b46c5c256f19ff9c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, well, members don\u2019t have those conversations across the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221dbd2811-8e58-4ffb-848d-31c0eaa9690a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235a1b4c6ce98474382956d92f9203e10\u0022\u003ERt Hon Chris Hipkins\u003C/span\u003E: Will he commit to keeping the same criteria for someone to be placed on the social housing wait-list, or will he reduce the wait-list by changing the criteria, as the previous National Government did?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce2104d32fa44a45b091adb2506604d2\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. What I\u2019d say to that member, though, is we are in a conversation here about social housing. We want to see more social houses available in New Zealand. We want to see more State houses built and we want to see more community housing providers build more houses as well. But the first thing to do is, rather than putting good money after bad, we\u2019re going to take stock of the KO organisation, make sure that it actually has a board refresh, make sure it has a turnaround plan in place by November, and make sure it gets on a financially sustainable footing. That is the first job that we have to do to clean up the mess that that member and his Government left us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022de9d5c6707674a81b919dfe1c21bee47\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4\u2014Housing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022 data-id=\u0022e00c3b55d02441ae9d2a89a67c1b7be8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e00c3b55d02441ae9d2a89a67c1b7be8\u0022\u003EKATIE NIMON (National\u2014Napier)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Housing: What announcements has he made regarding the independent review into K\u0101inga Ora?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00227fd5753373674c468188af52975db7c1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227fd5753373674c468188af52975db7c1\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E Yesterday, the Government announced a series of immediate actions in response to the independent review of K\u0101inga Ora. We had significant concerns about the financial performance and governance of the agency. These concerns have been borne out by the independent review. The review finds that K\u0101inga Ora is underperforming and not financially viable without significant savings, as well as funding and financing changes. The agency\u2019s had easy access to debt but insufficient focus on fiscal discipline and low levels of accountability. And, secondly, the wider social housing system is not delivering the results New Zealand needs and is lacking in transparency and accountability. They\u2019ve made seven major recommendations which propose significant changes to K\u0101inga Ora and the system, and we\u2019ve agreed to immediately adopt four of those recommendations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217ddb10ffaab425789f12280f8a26889\u0022\u003EKatie Nimon\u003C/span\u003E: What were those initial steps the Government took in response to these findings?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c7a5289c31c46df9a655dbef00eebe9\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Cabinet has appointed Mr Simon Moutter as the new chair of K\u0101inga Ora. He will be no stranger to many in this House, with extensive change leadership experience at Powerco, Auckland Airport, and Spark New Zealand. He steps into the role on 4 June, where he\u2019ll be tasked with leading a refreshed board which we expect to be in place in July. Ministers are then going to issue a new letter of expectation, which makes clear our expectations regarding a focus on fiscal sustainability, value for money, and a back to basics approach, and we\u2019re going to ask from the refreshed board a turnaround plan to Ministers by the end of the year to focus on returning K\u0101inga Ora to financial sustainability and eliminating losses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2b44ff2bed64a83a34a9dbc43187449\u0022\u003EKatie Nimon\u003C/span\u003E: What did the review have to say about the governance of K\u0101inga Ora?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290ad89e26b9444eca693952451206d4f\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: The review laid out a number of concerns about the governance and the performance of the board. As the Minister, alongside the Minister of Finance, I am responsible for ensuring the board is well-functioning and performing its governance role appropriately. I encourage members to read the review done by Sir Bill and his team around some of the governance failures at K\u0101inga Ora over the last few years. We are going to refresh the board and take action, and we expect a turnaround plan to fix the problems at K\u0101inga Ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002230f9e8fe-eafb-4967-8d4d-306525ae2340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251783e19fa494da0852011d670eb2383\u0022\u003EKatie Nimon\u003C/span\u003E: What about the other recommendations of the review?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225425bcce99be4889ae03aed7371244d5\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: The other recommendations in the review relate to the wider social housing system. One of the divides between the House has become apparent within that review: on this side of the House, we do not believe that the State is the answer to all of New Zealand\u2019s housing problems; actually, the wider housing system needs to be addressed. We believe, on this side of the House, that the community housing sector, groups like the Salvation Army, the Community of Refuge Trust, Emerge, Dwell Housing Trust, and the community housing sector\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a27bd22e817d47709eef1b46014cd921\u0022\u003EHon Nicola Willis\u003C/span\u003E: Habitat for Humanity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d0e1f5607f84788a9e1cbcee5a7d7a3\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014Habitat for Humanity, my friend points out\u2014have many of the answers to our housing problems. On this side of the House, we\u2019ll invest in more social housing, but the answer is not always necessarily State housing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba459588065749d39bdd8d6a3fd9bcfe\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Why has he refused to confirm funding for the income-related rent subsidy post-2025, given community housing providers like the Salvation Army are cancelling housing developments due to funding uncertainty?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8d0e10ffc6b4a49b1db76ca9dec3d3e\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I could equally ask that member why the previous Government did not confirm funding beyond 2025 in the last Budget, when the last Government had the opportunity to confirm the funding track for the next four years. Instead, they only confirmed it for two years so that Mr Robertson could run a fake surplus in 2026-27. The last Government allocated 6,000 social housing places in Budget 2023. Those are in the process of being delivered. There is plenty of work to get on with, and the member knows that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222132dfffcb0b494aa01393efab82f863\u0022\u003EHon Kieran McAnulty\u003C/span\u003E: Why do community housing providers have to wait for the Budget before knowing if they can build new houses, given the Government was happy to announce a $2.9 billion tax cut for landlords weeks ago?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fa82d5505d04bbc8e20076114e0672d\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the member conflates two distinct and separate issues.\u00A0But the community housing sector has, over the last year and since November, been contracting with the Ministry of Housing and Urban Development for the social housing places allocated in Budget 2023. I just say again: if that member is so interested in additional public housing or social housing places, around nine months ago in Budget 2023 that member\u2019s Government had the opportunity to confirm that. They chose not to\u00A0so they could pretend that by 2026, they were running a surplus. We now know that\u00A0that was yet another fiscal cliff bequeathed to this Government that we are now having to sort\u00A0out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e79c8e0469984d11a125a0052d8769e4\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u2014Finance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022 data-id=\u0022aad713087e2c4b58a9844482d659dc2f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aad713087e2c4b58a9844482d659dc2f\u0022\u003EHon BARBARA EDMONDS (Labour\u2014Mana)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: F\u00E3i\u00E5k se\u2019ea, Mr Speaker. What reports, if any, has she seen to confirm that the economic conditions are right for delivering tax cuts, and will she commit to them applying from 1\u00A0July 2024?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022 data-id=\u00220d1df81bf2ae452c8009b6635fb48de8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d1df81bf2ae452c8009b6635fb48de8\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E To the second part of the question, I will say what all Ministers of Finance say at this time, which is that the member will have to wait for nine more sleeps. To the first part, I saw an ANZ report on the Budget this morning, which said, \u201CWe expect the net impact of discretionary fiscal policy changes (tax and spending cuts) to be broadly neutral from a fiscal outlook perspective.\u201D, and, \u201Cwe think the net impact of tax and spending cuts are likely to be marginally contractionary on balance, insofar as households save a portion of their tax relief or spend a greater proportion on imports than the Government would have.\u201D To make it simpler for the House, our tax relief won\u2019t require additional borrowing, and our tax cuts will reduce inflationary pressures. Those seem like pretty good conditions for tax relief.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022615ccab5c43843648b460bf609238429\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Why is she choosing tax cuts rather than policies that will minimise job losses, which many are predicting to go well over 5 percent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b82945d66a8d49d99a3286d6958333b4\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: I would like to remind the member of the economic and fiscal conditions which New Zealanders face. We are in a situation where there have been no adjustments to personal income tax rates or thresholds for 14 years, other than a new rate being added at the top. Now, we are a country which is one of the few outliers in the OECD that hasn\u2019t adjusted thresholds for fiscal drag. We\u2019re a country where the average tax rate for a median full-time salary and wage earner\u2014by definition, someone right in the middle of the income distribution\u2014has gone up more than five percentage points. And we are a country where someone working full time on the minimum wage is now facing a marginal tax rate of 30 percent. These conditions justify tax relief. It is a shame the Labour Party can\u2019t see it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022012c212e67474954a6fd588a542affd7\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Why is she choosing tax cuts rather than policies that would increase productivity when business confidence is currently plummeting?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022080e848a901243f392999b29e0b8971d\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: I happen to believe that one of the greatest things we can do for productivity is send New Zealanders the message that there will be reward for their hard work. And that is what tax relief will do. Under Labour, it may be that workers are always the last to get served, but under this Government, we\u2019re making sure they get what they deserve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bd988598d784328bc96925400ba9a44\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Why is she choosing tax cuts rather than the major infrastructure works like State housing, schools, and hospitals when the construction industry is facing significant uncertainty?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5674c029e1847a786b2392323d3a54e\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: How facile it is to suggest that it\u2019s one or the other. It will be both.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022533ae5462012406ba938861177e59aa4\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with members of the Association of Economists that when the overall Budget is in structural deficit, reductions in current income taxes shift the burden of current Government expenditures to future taxpayers; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4c38f8e75f2494abb36c460dde4e74d\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: I agree with the economist who wrote for the ANZ, today, saying that \u201Cpro-cyclical fiscal policy in recent years means fiscal consolidation is now desperately overdue.\u201D And I can confirm for that member that, yes, our Government is getting on with cleaning up the fiscal mess her party left us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022464a9f3b73ac414f83c774333c563d5f\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister was asked a straight question, there, relating to the movement of a liability to future taxpayers and simply quoted from an unrelated economic report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a60288518ffc409dbf77410735b2b014\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, actually, it was a question about an economic report, if the member likes to look at the Hansard. So replying to that is not an unreasonable thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022659a0e5b3a37422a8551a2066bbb9f5d\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: It was an entirely different economic report\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e094361e12e84697a330335c2c36f2c6\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, we\u2019ll hear a point of order in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248c078ec84584ddba85e7477781af454\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister quoted from an entirely different economic report that bore no relationship to the question that was asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226602b530a444ff491a7bc46ac0dd0b7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, with all due respect, it was contradictory, and I think that\u2019s the way things work in here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6bdc28d89004fc0b9388d537e00e702\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order\u2014a different point of order. It goes to the earlier point of order that Mr McAnulty raised. I actually think that the Minister of Finance\u2019s retort referring to the earlier Government was actually in order, but it also means that the question of the Prime Minister asking him to answer a question about an earlier Government\u2019s behaviour is also in order. It doesn\u2019t matter whether they were in Government or not; they still have to answer questions that contrast earlier records.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e56e141431514bdca8d4c274a5bb040c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, thank you very much for that advice. We\u2019ll move now to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4f5c27d27514e32bbca75133819cdd3\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. It was a point of order, and it didn\u2019t deserve that retort. I asked you to take that into account when you reflect on the issue that you referred to earlier.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209928ec31e6444e8a54a63972bbc33e1\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, once again, thank you for pointing out your position. Mine was that I would consider this and come back to the House at a later point\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f2e7fbfb4874d4993c87cce5f4d4727\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: And mine was that I was trying to assist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022959d1f55afae4b3f897b45397efb235d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014I\u2019ve made that very clear earlier. I beg your pardon?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228620a8a678e041809115c07c613dc880\u0022\u003EHon David Parker\u003C/span\u003E: And mine was that I was trying to assist you in your role as the Chair of this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6d36f3389da4563b91e3495db857801\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And I simply thank you for your advice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261725fea-7d5e-4d1f-8fd3-e5779bb7a14d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a7411bd0d104750bf03e04009c3bb30\u0022\u003EHon Barbara Edmonds\u003C/span\u003E: Why is she choosing tax cuts over the livelihoods of the 4,500 Kiwis that have lost their jobs because of her Budget?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f12da0af-dc73-4870-8f77-1d50a75eb44c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271e5fd76c5104bdfa0f43755247469c3\u0022\u003EHon NICOLA WILLIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I would first warn the member that she\u2019s once again doing what she has done several times in this House, which is making a statement of fact where she doesn\u2019t actually have evidence to support it. I\u2019d note that the number that she is referring to is one that includes job vacancies that have been closed, which is not the same as someone losing their job. The livelihoods of New Zealanders are paramount in the minds of every Cabinet Minister who has signed off our Budget, and we think it is wrong for a Government to put those livelihoods at risk with irresponsible financial management that grows debt and fuels inflation without driving value for public money, and we intend to take a very different approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223d6df5b150fc47a394d3e95dcbe684d6\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6\u2014Children\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f9a67ee8a5674265a4287c8ff2536fdf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f9a67ee8a5674265a4287c8ff2536fdf\u0022\u003EKAHURANGI CARTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Does the Minister agree with official advice that the repeal of section 7AA of the Oranga Tamariki Act could cripple trust built with M\u0101ori communities\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002253299902d43143069d3c934684344899\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253299902d43143069d3c934684344899\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, just a minute\u2014just hold on a minute. You need to start by telling the House who the question is addressed to, particularly for the broadcast purpose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022 data-id=\u002274e524fcbf2945a2b757c19d0487e242\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274e524fcbf2945a2b757c19d0487e242\u0022\u003EKAHURANGI CARTER:\u003C/span\u003E To the Minister for Children: does she agree with the official advice that the repeal of section 7AA of the Oranga Tamariki Act could cripple trust built up with M\u0101ori communities and put vulnerable children at greater risk?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae750f1c4cec435391788eb0fd297682\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002298dbeffa-e059-49d5-8bbf-579cbaead9a3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae750f1c4cec435391788eb0fd297682\u0022\u003EHon SCOTT SIMPSON (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Speaker. That\u2019s not the question on the paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022c1a9eae954bb40149fd781b228034f68\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c1a9eae954bb40149fd781b228034f68\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I was just trying to catch up with that, because I was taking advice on that as we went. I\u2019m going to ask the member to start the question again as it\u2019s written on the Order Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022 data-id=\u0022288b2aac579547e89e0e793cf29d320a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022288b2aac579547e89e0e793cf29d320a\u0022\u003EKAHURANGI CARTER (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Children: Does she agree with reports that the repeal of section 7AA of the Oranga Tamariki Act 1989 could cripple trust built up with M\u0101ori communities and put vulnerable children at greater risk?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u0022bfa5c382d75f40eb8d9e90d4af6eb4ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bfa5c382d75f40eb8d9e90d4af6eb4ef\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E No, I do not agree with reports that have stated this. I assume the member is referring to an article with that headline. What that was referring to was a regulatory impact statement that actually said, \u201Ca repeal of section 7AA may undo some of the progress that Oranga Tamariki has made in building trust, relationships, and accountability in the communities we work with.\u201D However, the regulatory impact statement also says that the repeal \u201Cmay increase levels of confidence in the Department\u2019s decision-making for some members of the public\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba3c1750421d48be9a9d7070ea2cdba9\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, I seek your guidance. This is a question that was on notice and authenticated, but it appears that the word \u201Ccripple\u201D in the characterisation doesn\u2019t actually appear in the official advice, and I just wonder how a question can be authenticated when it makes an assertion that is actually not supported by the advice; it\u2019s a very colourful interpretation by the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225db3488c5f5142cb8b1919253a26880f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a very good point. I\u2019ll just take some advice. Right, the clarification is that it was not from an official document; it was from a media report, which is satisfactory for authenticating a question, and the word was used in that circumstance. So I appreciate the member\u2019s point of view, but the question stands.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f41bd24c42384048b9d5c7c89176450b\u0022\u003EKahurangi Carter\u003C/span\u003E: What specifically about the 7AA provisions, which give practical effect to Te Tiriti o Waitangi, is not in the best interests of tamariki?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022460dddc59c5246c685fd2de8119bc403\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I have stood here and made it very clear time and time again that the best interests and the safety of our children should be first and foremost in all decision making of our young people, not based on their race.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5d368a471334a2e832564c35b83e9a0\u0022\u003EKahurangi Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with official advice that stripping Treaty provisions \u201Cmay worsen the safety, stability, and well-being of our children with the greatest needs.\u201D, and, if not, what counter evidence does she have?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022933e715e68a4478c9b9490f73d90413b\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I will have to go back and check that advice and then come back to the member with an answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a759e167dde84961be5780bb8760154f\u0022\u003EKahurangi Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with Tama Potaka and the National Party, who voted down her member\u2019s bill making the same repeal of 7AA, that \u201CIt would be contradictory of us to dismiss this provision entirely, which is intended to be a genuine option to address and meet the best interests of the child in State care.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296dc5aa2d41e462381af61237eccbf63\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I have said time and time again that my intentions here are to make sure that our young people in this country are safe, cared for, and loved, and they deserve to be treated with the greatest of respect. And no matter what we do here today, this is part of the coalition agreement to make sure our young people have the best start in life.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022570c387795134565be21b80c32b853c6\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Could I ask the Minister as to whether she knows of any Treaty principle that puts the interests of the child last and the interests of others first?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a88c7b29a0cb4bc284de045baa66451c\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: No. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e16143421d5a428c84801f056d51d833\u0022\u003EKahurangi Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Can she guarantee\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229590ad46a09146fda2f30a4c49c93b1f\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Someone is on their feet. We\u2019ll just let them ask the question in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219aed0c446ad48c9a71a8fbe61d8f48d\u0022\u003EKahurangi Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Can she guarantee that no resources, programmes, or initiatives delivered by strategic partnerships for the benefit of tamariki in care will cease because of this repeal?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2a2b329c85a49c5bde943c18716f0cb\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: As far as that relates to the primary question, I can\u2019t make guarantees like that. All I can guarantee is whatever is working in the best interests of our kids will continue and whatever is not, won\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e7b81fa50924a7ba2507ae430597c8f\u0022\u003EKahurangi Carter\u003C/span\u003E: What assurances, if any, can she give that the repeal will not worsen the welfare of tamariki M\u0101ori or a breakdown in trust between iwi and hap\u016B M\u0101ori and the\u00A0Crown?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc5f5b46f60445f18d25bd5c00914b37\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: As far as that relates to the primary question, I am working hard, around the country, speaking to iwi, hap\u016B, and community organisations about how we move forward to make sure that our young people are safe and every decision we\u2019re making around their care is based on their safety.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fe723446b6694c98a6b4b45df01c30ae\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7\u2014Transport\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022 data-id=\u00229447852e7d874173a207ba8f93d5dbd8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229447852e7d874173a207ba8f93d5dbd8\u0022\u003ETIM COSTLEY (National\u2014\u014Ctaki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: What recent announcements has he made on roads of regional significance?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022 data-id=\u0022c60966343cfa457d8d751b895693ee10\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c60966343cfa457d8d751b895693ee10\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E The Government has announced roads of regional significance to sit alongside roads of national significance as part of our plan to get transport back on track. Two roads of national significance and 10 roads of regional significance will replace roading projects in the New Zealand Upgrade Programme. The New Zealand Upgrade Programme\u2019s roading projects were subject to significant cost blowouts that resulted in project cancellations and delays across the country. These changes get these roading projects back on track.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c97f5efeddfe494a96d00dade2f440b2\u0022\u003ETim Costley\u003C/span\u003E: Why has the Government made changes to road projects in the New Zealand Upgrade Programme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5cff112cc07488e8a338d76576e06e9\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, when we came to Government, we were advised that there would be a significant funding gap of up to $1.5 billion to deliver the roading projects in the New Zealand Upgrade Programme. The Government has made tough choices to get this programme of roading projects back on track. Two of these projects will now be delivered as roads of national significance. Ten will be delivered as roads of regional significance. Two will be progressed to be delivery-ready with funding decisions made once procurement for major projects within the package are confirmed, and two will be prioritised for funding within the Government policy statement on transport.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f903c3a5b1943dd908a3bafa150ece3\u0022\u003ETim Costley\u003C/span\u003E: Why has the Government delegated decision making on project scope and delivery to the New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA)?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8d5661394584af4886fd1ff716a3dda\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, our Government has delegated decision making on project scope and delivery to NZTA to provide much-needed certainty of delivery to communities across the country and to ensure the programme stays within budget. This ensures decisions can be made by the NZTA board on budget cost and scope, they can appropriately manage the risk, and ensure value for money for taxpayers. We expect the New Zealand Transport Agency board to deliver these projects within the $6.5 billion funding envelope for this programme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b9dc1924-4df4-4d8f-91ec-8a0f29348308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b648a1c2d0e043f784f33f2de7695ed5\u0022\u003ETim Costley\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister tell us how roads of regional significance fit into the Government\u2019s transport plan?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002255d0b7a4-a2c9-4c38-9b77-475311a48a89\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c1dca50b2544de5a6d78e6251e07916\u0022\u003EHon SIMEON BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Our Government is focused on delivering a transport system that boosts productivity and economic growth. Prioritising the delivery of roads of national significance and roads of regional significance across New Zealand provides much-needed certainty of delivery to communities across the country. It is a part of our plan to rebuild the economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d7956ed5666f445cb6dd15134aa1f772\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8\u2014RMA Reform\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u0022254c90347eae4628b1494b272759c1db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022254c90347eae4628b1494b272759c1db\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister responsible for RMA Reform: Does he agree with the Prime Minister\u2019s statement on 8 May referring to West Wind: \u201CWell, what I am very well aware of is it took eight years to consent a simple wind farm not very far from this place here in Wellington\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00220a15261d2d7140a0bbf08a2f9f97d969\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a15261d2d7140a0bbf08a2f9f97d969\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister responsible for RMA Reform):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. Preparatory work started on this consent in 1999. A range of assessments had to be undertaken so they could submit a consent application; have a reasonable chance if granted a workable consent. The work was not optional. The final decision to grant the consent was made by the Environment Court in July 2007\u2014eight years after the work began on the consent from the applicant. West Wind took two years to construct, so the total time, end to end, in developing it into a wind farm was 10 years. As the Prime Minister has outlined, it takes too long and costs too much to get resource consents in New Zealand to build the infrastructure New Zealand needs, including renewable energy. It\u2019s one of the reasons why we\u2019re committed to a fast-track, one-stop-shop piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f8e62ddee574491b71e4dffa1d86bd4\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not correct that although the land was purchased in the 1990s, as the Minister said, no consent was lodged for building a wind farm on that land till it was transferred to Meridian\u2014in fact, it was lodged on 1 July 2005; a final decision was made on 20 July 2007\u2014and, if this is what this party is hanging its Resource Management Act reform on, it\u2019s pretty thin?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c37d08695d547979386b6bc484b613c\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re nine days out from the Budget and apparently we\u2019re litigating on exactly what time frame an energy company submitted a resource consent application. But, regardless, the information that I have is that preparatory work on the resource consent for West Wind started in 1999. It is true that Meridian applied for it in 2005, but, of course\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022298095af8d184ee3bdaa3daad378f18f\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Two years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdfd198291f144b1977e46c96edabb63\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014that member neglects\u2014yes, but the member neglects all of the preparatory work that goes into actually preparing a resource consent because of the strictures of the Resource Management Act. I just point the member, further\u2014without litigating something that happened in the early 2000s, I would just point the member to the comments from almost every major electricity generator in the last couple of years when it comes to the Resource Management Act. I quote Contact Energy, for example: the single biggest barrier to the decarbonisation of the New Zealand economy is our planning system\u2014which is the Resource Management Act. It costs too much and takes too long to get consent to build renewables.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2345a95f14746c9b6a9cff298e29608\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister recall the supermarket look-in that took 28\u00A0years to get consent, and is his fast-track aligned\u2014to use the Prime Minister\u2019s words\u2014with the 17 precedent set by the Labour Party when last in Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222cae6f0f59cd4e18a3d426315eb3033a\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, yes, indeed, I do remember that. I also\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4c94e0466f647d7a03bf7bb8dc5af4b\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. The question had a swipe of the Labour Party at the end. It\u2019s clearly out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223949de1511b24578b6a67108c99c3e3c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it did. But it also asked if the Minister recalled, and you\u2019ve just had members from your party indicating that members should have very long memories about past ministerial understandings. So it can\u2019t go both ways.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022743e3cf1f2704bea87ebceeb58aa13c1\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order. If your ruling is that it is now OK in a question to make a swipe at the Opposition, that\u2019s a significant change from the position you\u2019ve taken today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae3931eaacc24047b410581e537ee5b2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is not. But I\u2019ve also said to the House that it\u2019s not unreasonable for a Government to reflect on actions of a previous Government. It\u2019s not necessarily a flick, and Speakers\u2019 rulings\u2014if I go through them, there are a number in there that will confirm that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221308bd71827498389b6767799b9f3e8\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I do remember that, and I could also point the member to other examples. The Lake Hayes wind farm sought consent for six years to build a wind farm. The classic that I like\u2014which I\u2019ve got to admit I was unaware about until about half\u00A0an hour ago\u2014is the reconsenting of the 100-year-old 0.5 megawatt Raetihi hydro power station, which took 19 years. This is the kind of red tape that we need to reduce in\u00A0this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e99249b715d2468baf2d19f3c07d1c22\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister received advice that under the COVID fast-track consenting process, where Ministers referred projects and independent experts made the decisions, the renewable energy projects referred had a combined generating capacity of 1,630 megawatts\u2014that\u2019s the equivalent of nearly four Clyde Dams\u2019 worth of electricity\u2014and that one of those was Te Rere Hau Wind Farm, which obtained approval in way under 18 months?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be3c02081b424c019688d9045bd06544\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Oh yes, yes. I\u2019m a big fan of the COVID-19 fast-track legislation, which is why we have lifted and shifted the vast architecture of the legislation into a new fast-track regime designed to make it easier to build things in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e74a2f63d13c4ffabad2a14a8348838d\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Under his Government\u2019s bill that is before select committee, has he lifted and shifted the fact that it is independent experts who make decisions and not three wise men of Ministers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ff88989404142bf82ea38ef36e9778b\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, well, the member is surprisingly complimentary about the troika of Ministers alongside Matua Shane and Mr Brown. As the member knows, the bill is before select committee. We are committed to a one-stop-shop, fast-track regime, which, as the record of the previous Government acknowledges\u2014with the exception of the Luddites and the Green Party\u2014every mainstream political party recognises this as a problem holding New Zealand back. We are also open to sensible changes to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3d585f23f8e44519c3f4a5a99003e83\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister commit to changing the bill, given the majority of the major electricity generators\u2014under the Electricity Sector Environment Group\u2014in their submission to the select committee have recommended that decisions on whether to approve or decline approvals for eligible projects are made by independent expert panels rather than by the joint Ministers as proposed under the bill as is currently drafted\u2014i.e., they are proposing a very similar scheme to the regime that Labour had?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244d91371c6974c329e4a89e67caa82e9\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the bill is before the select committee, so I don\u2019t want to get ahead of the deliberations of the select committee. All I can say is that we are carefully reading the submissions to the committee and the officials are analysing that. There are very few bills that go to Parliament that go to a select committee that don\u2019t come back with sensible refinements to improve the legislation. I\u2019m sure that will be true of the fast-track bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227d2d6ae5f925412681465629e2d1ad56\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9\u2014Police\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u00221469383492294642871a3d8994d5a4fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221469383492294642871a3d8994d5a4fc\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: What recent announcements has Police made about the policing of gangs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022 data-id=\u002273112bdccfb64089a4f5defbe2c28d68\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002273112bdccfb64089a4f5defbe2c28d68\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E The Police Commissioner has announced the formation of a national gang unit and district level gang disruption units made up of both new and reprioritised resources. These teams will have a laser focus on the disruption and enforcement of gangs. The new gang units will create and enhance new operational capability in combating gangs. They\u2019ll add significant capability to suppress gangs, their networks, supply chains, and violent, intimidating, and antisocial behaviour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225209d33a4c774405b68cd2259fc56f31\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with commentators that gangs will ignore police?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b07d6abd9b242109f766f614cf84d95\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: No, I totally reject that. Our police officers are an extension of our communities, and threats made against them are made against all of us. We have one of the most professional and capable police forces in the world. I have no doubt that they have the ability to be able to enforce the law and keep the public safe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227924a0b689e44bb5a3722580d3f203c1\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: What additional powers is the Government giving police to use?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c4bedff3b064be894eec2cba3ad4482\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: The Government has announced several new powers for police, including the banning of patches and insignia in public, dispersal notices, consorting prohibition notices, and strengthened firearms prohibition orders with warrantless search powers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8ea12ca4ce040c8b38cfc0dc920d112\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: How does this announcement from Police support the Government\u2019s priorities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f3d19fee7634b219d38367c167cc339\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: This is a strong step in the right direction and sends a clear message to gangs and organised crime groups that they are no longer operating in a permissive environment or above the law. Restoring law and order is a key priority for this coalition Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c21f4beb-20c4-4b12-bc6f-fdc931e2dc96\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022072b3338562449ef81550272dc250cc4\u0022\u003EHon Ginny Andersen\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with the Dairy and Business Owners Group spokesperson, Sunny Kaushal, who said, \u201CWhile the new Government was elected with high hopes, it is yet to meet our expectations\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002248a02a21-c1ac-4159-8789-485ad614bd01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc42fd6433904dcf8439206cdece1c96\u0022\u003EHon MARK MITCHELL\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I agree a lot with Sunny Kaushal, and I was very pleased to be with him on the weekend at a public meeting in Hamilton, where he said that he is very happy with the work that this Government is doing and he is looking forward to working even more closely with us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222a2bd5d76f43436f9ef8789cbcf21c24\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 10\u2014Children\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u00226c428d1b4a4e4b5dadaf8e84d8ddf493\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c428d1b4a4e4b5dadaf8e84d8ddf493\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Children: Does she stand by the decision to repeal section 7AA of the Oranga Tamariki Act 1989?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u0022648ef9e513e44b0f932d043384889b6d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022648ef9e513e44b0f932d043384889b6d\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239b7292e10034dc9bc898aa807758f22\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: What does she say to Tupua Urlich, a former ward of the State, who was the first survivor to speak at the M\u0101ori public hearing for the abuse in care royal commission of inquiry, who says, about repealing section 7AA, that \u201CIt\u2019s going to take generations to undo that harm. So when the Government turns around and fails to acknowledge our rights, it\u2019s just another stab in the back.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ffb8ca7a1c947a199fb9299e8d186d0\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry that Tupua Urlich had to go through what he went through, and I\u2019m sorry that Tupua Urlich had to stand up and tell his story before the royal commission. But, at the end of the day, this is about making sure that our young people are put first, before any other consideration in the Act. And any member on the other side of the House that can argue that putting the safety and the best interests of our kids first\u2014[Interruption] needs to take a good, long, hard look in the mirror.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259b63403bda84855872c2729a7012fd2\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Does she remain \u201Cunapologetic for putting the children first\u201D when her ministry\u2019s regulatory impact statement indicates that there is a lack of robust evidence that section 7AA does anything at all to harm children, and that repealing section 7AA may worsen the safety, stability, and wellbeing of our children with the greatest needs, on page 24, at paragraph 44?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022408562905ca74eb9890cce317fa454f9\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Whilst I respect the work the officials do and the information that they provide, it is also important to note that it is the job of Ministers to consider official advice, not to agree with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a27f2b01875495e93e65e85b38973ce\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: What does she say to the National Iwi Chairs Forum and the Pou Tangata Iwi Leaders Group, who are united against the proposed repeal of section 7AA, and can she name an iwi or M\u0101ori organisation, including any strategic partnerships with Oranga Tamariki, that supports the repeal of section 7AA?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca0a8f925ffc49fa83e509594515f9c3\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: People are entitled to have their opinions. At the end of the day, this is a coalition agreement, something that I campaigned on, an issue that I promised to fix while I went around the country and heard the horrific stories of how our young people were put at risk because it was based on their race, not their safety.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bde54d2aa68040b294c557562052ff06\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: How will Oranga Tamariki meet her expectation to establish more partnerships with M\u0101ori and continue current strategic partnerships, despite repealing section 7AA, when she is slashing 21 M\u0101ori roles at Oranga Tamariki, including the very roles that support engagement\u2014such as the regional M\u0101ori practice coaches and senior iwi\u00A0and M\u0101ori engagement advisers\u2014as well as the Treaty response unit and the M\u0101ori practice advisers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c78b0771439415bbc4006bfedf47510\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Those roles that the member is speaking of are still a proposal, still under consideration, and still out for consultation. What we are doing right now is making sure that Oranga Tamariki and all the people that work with our young people have a very clear direction that the care and protection and safety of our young people come first.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220823de5280664b36aa56d1e4b8c185bb\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister more focused on the adults who write regulatory impact statements, the adults in the National Iwi Chairs Forum, certain adults working for Oranga Tamariki, or is she more focused on the vulnerable children and their welfare?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcacb7e16e614d5c98d8ac63c0386feb\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I have heard about M\u0101ori rights, I have heard about iwi rights, I have heard about parents\u2019 rights, I have heard about officials\u2019 rights, but when have we heard about the children\u2019s rights?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cad31bef79b146588cd155bee2e5e9e6\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 11\u2014Education (Partnership Schools)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022 data-id=\u0022a53678585f7d47bd91a54dcb045a3903\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a53678585f7d47bd91a54dcb045a3903\u0022\u003ELAURA TRASK (ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Education (Partnership Schools): What recent announcements has he made about lifting educational outcomes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4b8d955697745cd957845710a17d8d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4b8d955697745cd957845710a17d8d9\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Associate Minister of Education (Partnership Schools)):\u003C/span\u003E Charter schools are back. [Interruption] That\u2019s right. Once again, New Zealand communities\u2014be they business, be they iwi, be they community groups that have insight into how to engage children currently disengaged from education, those educators and those innovators will have a vehicle where they can create schools where those disengaged students want to go. I\u2019ll tell you a story that I used in my maiden statement in this House 10 years ago of one student, a child who was literally called Hope. She was at Vanguard Military School and she said, \u201CI never knew I was smart till I came here.\u201D\u2014I never knew I was smart till I came here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f7fc7ac3-5ce1-43ca-8cd6-dbb0941bf3ae\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9ffdf5ffb524f3f966a4ad0fafba993\u0022\u003EHon Dr Duncan Webb\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. The question was \u201CWhat recent announcements has he made about lifting educational outcomes?\u201D He said charter schools were back; that was the end of the answer. He\u2019s now giving a speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270278e083f5c4eda8ea1e29b7f082df7\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that would be similar to me saying that the simple word \u201Cyes\u201D ends a question about \u201Cconfidence in\u201D statements and everything else. You wouldn\u2019t want that, so we won\u2019t do that either. You can start your answer again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bf2af03d5c64e7e8437f440967bede8\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Charter schools are back. Once again, in this society, there will be a policy where people in the community\u2014community groups, people from business, people from iwi, people from groups that may not have any ethnic base at all\u2014will be able to create schools that engage those students who are not engaged. Now, I want the Opposition to listen to this bit. For the people at home, the thing about the Opposition\u2014there\u2019s an old saying \u201CThey don\u2019t like it up \u2018em\u201D. But the facts are that a child called Hope, this child said to me, \u201CI never knew I was smart until I came here.\u201D What she meant is that at a State school that she wasn\u2019t attending\u2014that she wasn\u2019t attending\u2014what she found is that she thought she was dumb. She thought she had no potential. She thought she couldn\u2019t learn. At a charter school, she started learning and those skills turned into qualifications. Those qualifications eventually turned into a job and a future and feeling good about herself. That\u2019s what recent announcement I\u2019ve made about education and raising achievement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9f2500f95df483b8182271525309576\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And I hope that subsequent answers will be considerably briefer than the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221853e08b80cf4800b002ca39c19e3f91\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: We all have hope, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s what it\u2019s about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b357820f781d4397b980471eae90d64e\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And I\u2019ve got very high hopes for the member. After ten years I\u2019d have thought he\u2019d have been pretty sharp.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e28cd661c414693b924fea6e4301e70\u0022\u003ELaura Trask\u003C/span\u003E: What success have charter schools had?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e6bef0744934d8bb07a0c5520abf062\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: You know, it\u2019s interesting to look at what the data and evidence from around the world said. For example, the gold standards of studying charter school success comes out of Stanford University, the Center for Research on Educational Outcomes\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9289997924b4e68b3e8cc615349b5aa\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, following the Americans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1b30dbe548b4a6983792dfd2ee7a74f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014where they create\u2014I heard Rawiri Waititi in the cowboy hat say, \u201COh, you\u2019re following the Americans.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220070819da9014e1b8e6e024f36143cbd\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m listening to David Seymour in the pink tie.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ebb0f084bb84754965624f92609c488\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, you know all about it. In the United States of America, there\u2019s a university called Stanford and it has a Center for Research on Educational Outcomes. They\u2019ve done the most comprehensive study of charter school success where they create statistically identical virtual twins for kids in charter schools and kids in State schools. What they find is that a kid in a charter school in America, at the end of each year, has learnt 16 days more reading\u2014imagine if Rawiri Waititi had been there\u2014than in a State school. That\u2019s what the data and evidence says about charters, and the people that say otherwise are flat-earthers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022385c2d59907f4fb3a8e9f34f8516b33a\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That answer\u2019s sort of completely obliterating any hope I might have had of concise answers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228f20b644-642a-4c85-ade9-d5af32dc690b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cfa8bdf71814400aa69df9f7ea914d0\u0022\u003ELaura Trask\u003C/span\u003E: Why is there a need for charter schools in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022395f355ebccb456097b06f35e8b41888\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: The sad reality is that nothing determines our future more than how much knowledge we transfer from one generation to the next for every kid, and we\u2019re failing. We\u2019re failing to get kids to school and we\u2019re failing to have them learn valuable knowledge for their future when they\u2019re there\u2014that is the truth. After years of denial, where the Labour Minister of Education, for example, was absolved from responsibility for misleading the House because she didn\u2019t know where the educational data on attendance was, we are now fronting up, we\u2019re publishing the data, and we\u2019re creating new options so that kids can be engaged by people with insights in their community about what will get them to school and get them engaged. That\u2019s why we need them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228157109b8e3643d68864aa9db99269ed\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, was there another supplementary to come?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022555555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b346ada3e9f1465a8b3abc3b7d6bb30e\u0022\u003ELaura Trask\u003C/span\u003E: There is. What reports has he seen in support for charter schools?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283d3b4115689400ebec803324b20291c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: One commentator said, \u201CWhen you look at the success this alternative-style educational model has had for M\u0101ori, then it gets an A every day.\u201D, and \u201COur staff tell us they have seen the change in our tamariki, especially those who have been failed by mainstream schooling.\u201D Another commentator has said, \u201CI support that particular charter school, and the reason I do so is that I\u2019ve seen kaupapa grow from the fetal stages all the way that they have today and I\u2019ve seen the outcomes they\u2019ve achieved, and that\u2019s why I support that particular kaupapa.\u201D I would like to thank Willie Jackson and Peeni Henare for those quotes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d542d1883cb14c4f8bf25fa6fcfa5ea1\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 12\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022 data-id=\u002295658fcc0f054b6a8c0ead8bc65bc482\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002295658fcc0f054b6a8c0ead8bc65bc482\u0022\u003ERAWIRI WAITITI (Co-Leader\u2014Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori )\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by his Government\u2019s statements and actions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5ea904a222f447192cc1bce9185696c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5ea904a222f447192cc1bce9185696c\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, in the context they were given.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a966c4be5100467cb130487f3c03d731\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Can he explain why he has allowed one coalition agreement with a minor political party to cause his Government to disregard his obligation under the Tiriti in regards to the repeal of section 7AA?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec28256329ee4610a5ee20389296199a\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: We are united, in the coalition Government, that we are prioritising the wellbeing of a child ahead of their cultural needs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245554f6fd3c14af2b7fea10d108fe67c\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: If section 7AA\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e23d3850404f4bd08f924f489934f0ed\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Hang on. Look, you are entitled to a bit of quiet in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022196f1881f1eb4a1db2318fc357ba3fd6\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. If section 7AA has been successful in reducing the number of M\u0101ori entering State care by almost 50 percent since its implementation in 2019, why would you repeal it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f3e9bfe8a804938872579c26968b6c0\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, look, I\u2019m sorry; I haven\u2019t seen the data that the member is referring to, but what I would say\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ccf7999360146598c62c54451b43e74\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Read the reports. They\u2019re in the reports provided for your use.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2f6c47f8f9d4052a53c37860deb6d8c\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Would you like an answer, or would you like to continue? What I\u2019d just say to you is that we are very clear: these are our most vulnerable children in New Zealand. We care deeply about them. We take our responsibility very seriously in State\u2014to make sure that they are well looked after, they\u2019re in caring and loving homes. That is what we are prioritising first. That doesn\u2019t preclude them from being with wh\u0101nau, but, actually, the first priority, the first lens by which you look through that question on, is making sure that you have that child in a safe, loving, great home.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207ffc5bad3994575a3ac295235645a0c\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: There is no empirical evidence it wasn\u2019t happening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b11c379aa974237aa336e24a171b96d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not true. Stop talking bunkum. Yeah, you\u2019d believe that because you\u2019re so na\u00EFve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d950bf6b74249b3ad4231ed0df5788c\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Look, hang on. Excuse me\u2014both sides of the House. It\u2019s very exciting\u2014we\u2019re coming up to the Budget. Everything gets a bit fractious. Just calm down and we\u2019ll hear questions in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc62abc01208430f909340897d509989\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Can he rule out the harmful impacts that this policy will have on tamariki M\u0101ori and, if so, will he take responsibility for any further harm of mokopuna M\u0101ori that occurs in State care as a result of his coalition agreement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022367c211de98e4869b1e7f197b2d586fd\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, look, I can tell you this Government and our Minister take our responsibilities incredibly seriously. These are our most vulnerable children in New Zealand. We have a huge responsibility to make sure that they end up in safe, caring, and loving homes. That is job number one, above and beyond everything else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b169139f046f4250a2ff59fafc37d3ba\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with his own Government that no-cause evictions and the return of interest deductibility are pro-renter policies, and, if so, can he explain why not a single renters advocacy group agrees that these policies are pro-renter?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb469138f8dd4989a761b426d4925c0d\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t know how to explain this to the member, but we have a housing crisis in New Zealand, and this Government\u2019s going to do something about it. And we are very clear about it\u2014we have a supply problem. We have a supply problem in the number of\u2014we\u2019re not building enough houses. We have a supply problem because we\u2019re not renting enough houses, and not enough in the rental market, and we have a supply problem in the social housing market. Removing interest deductibility, bringing back the brightline test, and balancing the tenancy laws between landlords and tenants are things that will make it easier for people to get rental properties.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acae1a51d7b1424ba1265b8cc3eedcf7\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Who is in a better position to speak for renters: (a) renters advocacy groups or (b) a person who owns seven homes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aed2dc8647e84eb4b61f81fa86202b0c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275d07a3bfc3d46e9a3523d406e315a9d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Hold on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3d9ec48077d483ab963201206d73f5c\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Is that a point of order, or is he answering the question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d23d3c5238f4b4b9a3996e574cbf3e2\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Are you taking a point of order? Because there\u2019s a question on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253de1c30f621493e953bd6103e55cfe2\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it doesn\u2019t deserve to be answered, so let\u2019s go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba7d95278f9c45ef910c0dcab3caaa24\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that\u2019s\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273e6f80670ae45e99d645df9ccdf9e3b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Go straight to my one. No offence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7b542dc1fc54362b29f62367c35eeae\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Thanks very much for assisting. As you know, I\u2019m intensely interested in your interest in the job I\u2019m doing. Now, sorry, ask the question again and try and bring it inside the Standing Orders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e3422c0ff4b44ce9dc6997881f5c2b2\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Who is in a better position to speak for renters: (a) renters advocacy groups or (b) a person who owns seven homes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ea31fdd3-90e9-47d7-92a4-20b6a3109eef\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220356974beb1f49fd9e7ef442a652eaba\u0022\u003ERt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I reject the premise of that question, but I actually think taking the housing crisis seriously is something that I would expect that member to do. I would expect that member, if he cared, actually, about people who are in homeless situations, if he cared about people who can\u2019t get access to rental properties, and if he cared about people who are in emergency housing and the 3,000 kids that woke up in motels today\u2014he\u2019d actually want to do something about increasing the supply of houses available, houses available to rent, and houses available in social housing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e13e5053acd43558d9ceb70b108d86a\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Can I ask the Prime Minister: when he experiences those sort of nasty allegations in the House, does he not sort of think of Michael Cullen and his famous quote, \u201CWe won. You lost. Eat that!\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb0268a4fd7344afb482be9b67006c98\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that question certainly won\u2019t be answered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bf7e779caa740dbb275ec064b51316d\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Just clarity, Mr Speaker. If you can tell me what the allegation is that I\u2019ve made, that would make it clearer for that question. And just to say before I sit down\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208a756612757456d8d062b7e69ea9333\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. I\u2019ll help the member. I don\u2019t need to, because I just said it\u2019s not a question that can be answered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229720732d939f41778b59ddac022e5c18\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Well, every great thinker is someone\u2019s moron. Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242a340970af34cd0a554824a93b4958d\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That concludes oral questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ee99bd0773c640288daa3c8b1f032498\u0022\u003EUrgent Debates\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002213ff798aec26453ea099eb42ee556332\u0022\u003EK\u0101inga Ora\u2014Government Response to Review\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00221814b9dc561440e697466596435b6942\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221814b9dc561440e697466596435b6942\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I call on the Hon Kieran McAnulty to move that the House take note of a matter of urgent public importance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3f16470cbda4618b96d1d370e2e153e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3f16470cbda4618b96d1d370e2e153e\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House take note of a matter of urgent public importance. Mr Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc88aa9fbcd4468289320112c4bc9adb\u0022\u003ESPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Wait a minute\u2014wait on. Members, there\u2019s a time on this. Do not have conversations as you\u2019re leaving the House. Leave quietly and respectfully. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f05d1f91d2eb4e82aa4682cd204c99f4\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. When it comes to social housing, the National Party are all talk. They\u2019ve always been all talk and they always will be all talk, and there\u2019s no better example than the response to the review into K\u0101inga Ora that occurred yesterday, as the Prime Minister and the housing Minister stood there in front of the media and looked for every possible excuse they could to undermine K\u0101inga Ora and the provision of State houses in this country. There is a reason why I didn\u2019t refer to its full name\u2014this so-called independent report\u2014because I do not accept that placing Sir Bill English, the man who oversaw the wholesale of our State houses while he was finance Minister, is anywhere near independent. The record of the previous National Government speaks for itself. In the nine years that they governed, the number of State houses went backwards by 1,500, and the bloke that oversaw that was the bloke that oversaw the review that the Prime Minister and the housing Minister used to justify their agenda.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s have a look at what they said in their response. On numerous occasions, the Prime Minister mentioned that debt had gone up from $3 billion to $12 billion. At no point did the Prime Minister mention the asset value that had been accumulated in that time, that had gone from roughly $20 billion to roughly $45 billion in six years. Why? Because they are trying to paint a picture. They are trying desperately to undermine an organisation that had to start from scratch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EActually, that\u2019s inaccurate: they had to start beyond and behind the starting line, because when we came in in 2017, and when K\u0101inga Ora was established in 2018, Housing New Zealand was a shell of an organisation. It existed for one reason and one reason only, and that was to sell State houses. It was a shame, it was a disgrace, and we had to build that up from nothing, change the outlook. That is what, supposedly, was in review yesterday. It was what, supposedly, is under financial strain. What amazed me was it seemed like the Prime Minister and the housing Minister only realised that it costs money to build houses, and a lot of houses\u201414,000 is the number that public houses increased by in the last six years. That is an astronomical number in the context of what Housing New Zealand was and what K\u0101inga Ora has become. By all means, we should always look for efficiencies, but the attitude\u2014it was astounding. They\u2019ve given up\u2014they have given up. They have not even committed to continuing at the same level.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EI find the actions of those two Ministers yesterday to be disingenuous\u2014disingenuous because throughout the campaign, both of them made a promise to New Zealanders. They promised that their Government would build more houses than the Labour Government. So to achieve that, that\u2019s 14,001-plus, and what have we seen in the last seven months? Absolutely nothing. We\u2019ve seen blaming and we\u2019ve seen dodging around the issues, and we\u2019ve seen claims that I believe to be disingenuous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIn the Prime Minister\u2019s state of the nation speech, he claimed, as we have heard in the House today and was referred to again yesterday, that when they came into Government there was advice sitting on their desk that K\u0101inga Ora was about to sell 10,200 houses, and they claimed that we knew. We heard it today\u2014it\u2019s not true. That advice was commissioned by the Minister of Finance as a result of a conversation she had with the Secretary to the Treasury. That\u2019s confirmed in another written question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll tell you what also was confirmed: in the annual review hearing at the Social Services and Community Committee, both the Ministry of Housing and Urban Development and K\u0101inga Ora confirmed very clearly that that advice was on the preface that this Government will not fund social houses, public houses, or State houses beyond 2025. They were working on their advice. This is the outcome of this Government\u2019s policies, and they have the gall to turn around and blame us. If they want to blame us, they can blame us for housing people, because that\u2019s what we did\u2014we housed people. We housed families; we housed disabled people, who, incidentally, make up 70 percent of K\u0101inga Ora\u2019s tenants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EWhat have they done\u2014apart from looking for excuses and looking for distractions? They have reintroduced interest deductibility for landlords, a $2.9 billion tax cut. Why was that brought in? It was brought in to incentivise new builds, because for years speculators and investors were competing amongst themselves on existing stock, driving up house prices. And what did we see once that was changed? Investment went to new builds. New homeowners came into existing stock. That is the result of that policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ESo the reverse is true: by them bringing it back, there won\u2019t be new builds; there will be competition on existing stock, house prices will go up, new homebuyers will be locked out, and rents will go up. And guess what! That doesn\u2019t help build houses. We saw them put restrictions and make it harder to get into emergency housing\u2014that doesn\u2019t build houses. We saw them announce that it\u2019s easier to evict K\u0101inga Ora tenants without the promise that they would then go back on to the list\u2014that doesn\u2019t build houses. And later today, we are going to debate a bill at its first reading that makes it easier for landlords to kick tenants out\u2014that doesn\u2019t build houses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EWhat does build houses is funding, and the glaring omission from yesterday\u2019s announcement was another missed opportunity, another refusal to confirm funding. Right around the country, community housing providers are pausing and cancelling housing developments for one reason: because they won\u2019t confirm the funding. And we\u2019ll hear it\u2014Chris Bishop\u2019s writing down notes now. We\u2019ll hear the nonsense that he\u2019s been saying for a while; fiscal cliffs and all that sort of stuff. Anything short of this Government announcing funding perpetuity for the rest of time, they\u2019re going to go into their same trap that they\u2019ve created; they\u2019re going to do what is a total fiscal cliff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a disgrace. It\u2019s like they think New Zealanders are thick, but they\u2019re not thick and they know what to expect from this Government, when they see their Prime Minister unable this morning on Breakfast to answer a simple question: \u201CHow many State houses will you sell?\u201D He refused to answer. \u201CDefine mass State housing sell-offs.\u201D, as was referred to by the housing Minister yesterday. He refused to answer. Why, is my question\u2014why is that? They could\u2019ve cleared that up yesterday; they didn\u2019t. Instead, they took us down a road that wasn\u2019t true by claiming that they\u2019ve got advice on sales of houses that wasn\u2019t true. Their own advice, their own officials, their own answers to written parliamentary questions say it wasn\u2019t true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s actually quite clear and quite evident: they are shaping up K\u0101inga Ora to perform what happened in the last National Government: a mass transfer of State-owned houses to other organisations, be they community housing providers or be they these new associations modelled on what\u2019s happening in the UK. Of all the European examples to follow on housing policy, the UK is the last one. The number of social houses has gone down; the number of homeless has gone up. It is the very thing we shouldn\u2019t be doing. It is the very thing they will do, because it\u2019s the very thing they did last time. If they don\u2019t fund public houses, the numbers will go down. The evidence is there for all to see. They can yell, they can holler, but here\u2019s a challenge for them: what\u2019s larger, 14,000 or minus 1,500? It\u2019s a pretty simple question, because if this Government continues on its path and follows to make excuses like they did yesterday in the response to the review and refuses to fund additional funding for State houses and for income-related rent subsidy, that\u2019s exactly where we\u2019re going to go. If the previous National Government funded houses like we did, we would be nowhere near the mess that we\u2019re in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u002237305fcfcad1482783f3e7171b9ad394\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002237305fcfcad1482783f3e7171b9ad394\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. There are a few things that the member Kieran McAnulty\u2014who I realise is new to the housing portfolio\u2014needs to realise about K\u0101inga Ora and the financial situation that this Government has inherited. The first is that it is true to say that in December last year, when the Government came to office, a report landed on our desk that was pursuant to the funding\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d13de9b2ec64a7ab4595e273b75ae05\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: It was commissioned by the Minister of Finance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228297a0b2cffe425b8ca44a436be1a1f3\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, no\u2014no, no, no. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ae8ba5b1f864c309709019a45bd984b\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, yes, yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1e8307b631c47ed874071d23a6c19f4\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: The member who is interjecting, herself, alongside the Minister of Finance at the time, started the K\u0101inga Ora funding and financing review in the first place. The previous Government was donkey-deep in the situation that this Government has inherited, because even the profligate previous Government realised that what was going on at K\u0101inga Ora was not acceptable. That\u2019s why they started the funding and financing review by Treasury and the Ministry of Housing and Urban Development in the first place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EOne of the outcomes of that review was a report that landed on the new Government\u2019s desk in December 2023 that said, on the budget approved by the board in December 2023, that K\u0101inga Ora was forecast to sell, over the next four years, 10,200 houses\u2014that is fact. So that is the situation that the Government has inherited. Now, as I said yesterday in the post-Cabinet press conference, that will not be happening under this Government\u2019s watch, and one of the ways it will not be happening is that we have commissioned this review and have started the turn-around job of K\u0101inga Ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EK\u0101inga Ora is an extremely important organisation. It\u2019s a $45 billion company. It spends over $2.5\u00A0billion per year. Over the last few years, its financial situation has been deteriorating. In 2022-23, it ran at a loss of $520 million, which is forecast, on the current track, to increase to $700 million by 2026-27. It has added 2,000 staff since 2017-18.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EOne of the consequences of the previous Government\u2019s enormous remit that it gave to K\u0101inga Ora is that it has taken its eye off the ball on doing its job of being fundamentally a public housing landlord. It\u2019s an extremely important organisation that houses over 185,000 people, owns over 70,000 houses, alongside many other things that it does. One of the things that the Government will be considering is to reduce the remit of the things that it does so that it can focus on its core responsibilities. So it\u2019s very important fiscally for the Government, but it\u2019s also very important for the people who actually live in those houses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe review that we are responding to in this urgent debate finds that the cash cost over the next four years is $21 billion for K\u0101inga Ora. That is money that comes from taxpayers, that comes from the rest of the Crown. Now, as I say, it is very important that K\u0101inga Ora is an efficient and effective organisation. That is why we commissioned the review and the review was thorough and it was engaged comprehensively with K\u0101inga Ora and the communities that are part of the K\u0101inga Ora family, or at least the sector around the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EOne of the things that\u2019s interesting is that K\u0101inga Ora\u2019s social licence has really been put at risk, and this is the issue that the current Government has had to grapple with, in that I think public housing and State housing and social housing has in some communities had a bad name that is undeserved, partly because of K\u0101inga Ora. I want to restore the social licence for State, public, and social housing in our communities because it is extremely important that we look after people in need, and K\u0101inga Ora plays a very important role in that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EWe will, under this Government, build more social houses. We will build more K\u0101inga Ora houses. We will also facilitate the building of more social houses, and never is there more of a bigger divide between the parties than when it comes to the role of the State and social housing, because the previous Government\u2019s obsession was with building State houses through K\u0101inga Ora, and that was their sole focus. To give you a sense of it, they funded 6,000 more social houses in Budget 2023 over the next two years. Eighty percent of them were allocated to K\u0101inga Ora, 80 percent of them\u20144,800\u00A0houses were allocated only to K\u0101inga Ora. The community housing sector got the crumbs\u2014about 1,200 social houses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EOn this side of the House, we are far more interested in growing the community and social housing sector than we are in focusing resolutely on the gross number of new State houses. So, we will fund and build more social houses on this side of the House, but we are far more interested in powering up organisations like the Salvation Army, like Emerge, like the Community of Refuge Trust. We are far more interested in innovative funding and financing formulas that allow those houses to be built. For example, we are interested in developments that let ACC, and other forms of capital, fund\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022692c462a1d8b4a92aa05fff67fac86b4\u0022\u003EHon Dr Megan Woods\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019ve already done it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7bdbcbbd1dc405e9af5505cb3c5c1b5\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, I know\u2014yes, that\u2019s true. They\u2019ve already done it, but we want to see what more we can do in that regard. So we will fund and support more social housing places.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe member who led off this debate, the leader of the\u2014well, maybe the leader in the future of the Labour Party, but the leader when it comes to housing talked a lot about the 2025 social housing places and how the Government hasn\u2019t confirmed funding beyond that. As I said in question time, that could equally be true of the previous Government, because in 2023, the outgoing Labour Government at the time funded more social housing places to 2025 and stopped it there, and we know why they did that. It\u2019s because they pretended that after that time there\u2019d be no more additional social housing funding so that the 2025-26 books could look better, so that they could pretend that around that time, and the year after that, they would deliver a surplus. This is one of these fiscal cliffs, and the fiction, created by the Labour Party, that they were on track to surplus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EWhen we got into Government we had to open the books and turn over the rocks and we discovered all of these situations throughout. Pharmac is another one, which David Seymour, my colleague, had to confront as well. School lunches was another one where they just pretended that the money would not continue to be spent\u2014utterly fictional\u2014so that Mr Robertson could go into the election campaign and say \u201COh, don\u2019t worry, we\u2019re on track to surplus.\u201D, even though the truth was the opposite.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo Mr McAnulty sort of cries crocodile tears and says, \u201COh well, you\u2019ve got to continue the social housing track funding.\u201D Well, why didn\u2019t the last Government do it? We are confronting that situation. He rages against transfers to other organisations. It\u2019s utterly hilarious\u2014the idea that the Government might transfer State houses to social housing organisations. The last Government hated the fact that the Government before that\u2014the National Government\u2014transferred social houses from K\u0101inga Ora, or Housing New Zealand, as it then was, to accessible properties in Tauranga, and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b4aa5db05ae4d83a279f5f8ccb6ff16\u0022\u003EShanan Halbert\u003C/span\u003E: Sold them off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bc8102337a547c9a789d5f7da8e53f1\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: See, this is classic\u2014it\u2019s classic. This is what they say all the time. They spent much of their time in Government pretending that the last National Government engaged in a State house sell-off. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EWell, here\u2019s the facts. Here\u2019s the facts: the last National Government transferred, at market rates, houses owned by Housing New Zealand to accessible properties. Guess what? They were transferred on the basis that they were social houses and remain social houses. Guess what? The people who live in those houses are largely the same now as they were when they were owned by the Government. Here\u2019s the difference: unlike the socialists opposite, who care about who owns things, on this side of the House, we are agnostic as to ownership; we care about the tenants and the services that they are receiving. The Labour Opposition can cry crocodile tears about State and social housing and pretend that the private sector is the enemy of community housing; we know, on this side of the House, the truth is the opposite.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThe final thing I\u2019ll say in rebuttal to Mr McAnulty is he says, \u201CWe house people.\u201D\u2014\u201CWe house people.\u201D, he says. Well, here are the facts: social housing wait-lists quadrupled to 25,000 families. The New Zealand Government, as of today, spends a million dollars a day housing people in emergency housing motels. There are 3,000 families living there now. The number of people living in cars quadrupled. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo, quite to the contrary of what Mr McAnulty says, the last Government\u2019s record on social housing, as it was on housing more generally, is utterly shameful. We are sorting this dreadful situation out, and the K\u0101inga Ora report is just the start of that process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022 data-id=\u00220ac93eacaf0f47f28f2341232ee2e6f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ac93eacaf0f47f28f2341232ee2e6f4\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL (Green\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Speaker. Well, it\u2019s Groundhog Day today and history is repeating itself, because before us we have another National-led Government trying to create the social licence to sell off tens of thousands of public houses that are owned by the people\u2014a move straight out of the playbook of John Key and Bill English\u2019s National-led Government. In the past in Aotearoa, in the face of housing insecurity, when our people returned from war, when our cities were controlled by urban slumlords who had people living in their own filth in our cities, the Government made a conscious decision to build public housing at scale because they knew that public housing is a way that we can ensure people have secure housing, affordable housing, and relative protections from market forces. We\u2019ve made that decision before, and we can make that decision again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EIn fact, I learnt recently that if we had the same amount of State housing that we had in 1991, we would have enough public housing to clear the public housing wait-list and have an additional 10,000 houses in our country. That is to highlight the fact that these are political decisions that our leaders are making to keep people in a state of housing insecurity. Public housing is as essential as public education, public schooling, public transport, public healthcare. Aotearoa is in the midst of a housing crisis, and what we need is a Government that backs K\u0101inga Ora to tackle the housing crisis, not a Government attempting to micromanage every single thing that K\u0101inga Ora does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EPublic housing has become a safe haven for young families, seniors, disabled people, and those living with complex needs, because when housing is treated as a public good, it can provide a stable home for those people to live without fear of discrimination, without fear of unfair evictions, without fear of unforeseen rent increases. We should be building thousands of new public homes now and confirming ongoing funding for those community housing providers that the Minister was just talking about so that they can continue to build with certainty around sustainability of funding. How can you expect community housing providers, if anybody, to build more housing when their funding doesn\u2019t even extend between 2025? That is why thousands of build projects are being cancelled and delayed across the country. Desperately needed homes in urban centres and in the regions are being cancelled because this Government does not have the courage to actually face the housing crisis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EI want to repeat that public housing is important. We need to stop trying to micromanage K\u0101inga Ora and get out of their way and actually allow them to build the housing that our people desperately need. We need to see and treat public housing as the public good that it is and actually look beyond financial viability. I hate to break it to the other side of the House, but some things are more important than turning a profit, such as making sure that people have a stable roof over their head, being able to pay the rent, being able to continue to send your kids to school in the same neighbourhood that they\u2019ve grown up in\u2014not displacing and gentrifying our communities by only building houses that rich people and property investors can afford.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed19a5ed48364cfca066eb7df9170cd8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed19a5ed48364cfca066eb7df9170cd8\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Minister for Regulation):\u003C/span\u003E Well, thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I\u2019ve got to say, I was curious when I saw that this debate had been asked for by the Labour Party. I couldn\u2019t work it out. And then I watched Kieran McAnulty\u2019s demeanour and his attempt at faux crescendos rising up and down in his body position, and I thought: that guy wants to be leader. That\u2019s why he did it. Unfortunately, there are some more important issues at play.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThere is, at base, the fundamental fact that we have a country which is one of the most sparsely populated on the planet. We have more room, more places for people to live, a better climate, a better place for people to live than perhaps any other place on Earth. We are so lucky. And yet somehow, through decades of policy neglect, we have made it too hard to build a house\u2014too hard to get the resource consent, too hard to fund and finance the infrastructure, too hard to get the building materials, and too hard to get the building consent. As a result, there\u2019s a shortage\u2014there\u2019s a shortage of homes. I think that is in large part why the Government changed in 2017 and why Labour were elected. And here\u2019s the thing: they made an enormous mistake in that they truly believed that if they could reach back to their heritage\u2014pictures of Peter Fraser, the then Labour Prime Minister, carrying the table through the first State house\u2014if only they could go back to that. And we actually just heard it from the Greens, \u201CIf only we could go back to that.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221cd33f16-add4-4363-a2d4-f457841a5c4c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b8b15daaa864a048755362b460306b3\u0022\u003EGlen Bennett\u003C/span\u003E: Wrong Prime Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ccc7bd09158040648a9c14fb6937a1e6\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Then, all of a sudden they believed\u2014and he said it\u2019s the wrong Prime Minister. He\u2019s right, it was Michael Joseph Savage. But none the less\u2014Labour very focused on their history but not focused on the results today. None the less, the Labour Government believed that if only the Government built the houses then the problem would be solved. The issue was they didn\u2019t solve the problem with infrastructure funding and financing. They didn\u2019t solve the problem with resource management law and make it faster to get a consent. They didn\u2019t solve the problem with building materials or building consents or the shortage of builders. Amazingly, they managed to make it worse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EThey put all the money into K\u0101inga Ora (KO). They gave them billions of dollars. But were they faster? No. It took them 58 months from go to woe to build a house, on average. Now, you put that in perspective. Noah took an estimated 55 years to build the ark. So I\u2019ll grant that K\u0101inga Ora were faster than Noah, but K\u0101inga Ora, unfortunately, were not saving humanity. Far from it. Not only were they terrible as a builder, so inefficient that they are losing half a billion dollars a year\u2014you know, every day, today, K\u0101inga Ora will lose $1.5 million dollars. And, you know, I heard the Labour Party accusing this Government of running the country like a business. My thought was: how would they know? You know, they ran K\u0101inga Ora into the ground. They say they care about community housing, but they can\u2019t make the numbers add up. Not only that, K\u0101inga Ora were horrific as a neighbour to all those people who were too scared to call the police because the K\u0101inga Ora neighbours next door might do something to them and they weren\u2019t going to get kicked out by KO, whose policy was sustaining tenancies. They weren\u2019t that good as a landlord either.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EAltogether, we had a Labour Government that put everything into K\u0101inga Ora\u2014terrible as a landlord, terrible as a neighbour, terrible as a builder, so inefficient that they\u00A0lost half a billion a year. And even when they tried to build affordable housing, they were so inefficient they actually pushed the price of housing up. The great shame of it is not\u00A0that we\u2019ve lost all that money, not all the mismanagement; the great shame of it is\u00A0that\u00A0after six years of that Labour Government, New Zealanders are more short of housing than at any given time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003ESo what are we going to do about it? We\u2019re going to stop obsessing about State houses. People just need houses; people need a warm, dry roof over their head. We\u2019re going to make it easier to build them, whether you\u2019re the State or not. We\u2019re going to fix the resource management law. We\u2019re going to do city and regional deals to coordinate infrastructure funding with city planning. We\u2019re going to do infrastructure funding and financing so the pipes and the roads and the bus stops show up when you build new homes. And we\u2019re going to make it easier to bring in the building materials that the rest of the world uses at lower costs, so we can build homes more efficiently. Then, and only then, will New Zealanders finally be able to realise the dream of New\u00A0Zealand. This beautiful, open space with a mild climate really will have a place for\u00A0everybody. That\u2019s the dream, not Labour\u2019s ideological obsession over failed State\u00A0delivery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe858a7c087e4e41bdf5bb7b7b04efe8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe858a7c087e4e41bdf5bb7b7b04efe8\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Like the previous speaker, I was staggered to see this request for this debate, and also staggered by what I thought was the presentation of an alternative reality there, because, actually, you don\u2019t have to look too hard to undermine K\u0101inga Ora (KO), which is what we on this side of the House were being accused of doing. Actually, you don\u2019t have to look very hard. You look at the financial track record, and that doesn\u2019t look particularly spectacular. You look at the cost of building houses that they were doing, and that doesn\u2019t look particularly spectacular. If you look at their record as a neighbour, that doesn\u2019t look very good either. So, it\u2019s not particularly hard to undermine KO, which we were being accused of, because they simply are not performing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EThis really is what that report by Sir Bill English and others was all about. I thought that Kieran McAnulty, in starting this debate, also started on the approach that they\u2019re saying, \u201CLet\u2019s shoot the messenger\u201D\u2014let\u2019s shoot the messenger. You look through the report, and I think, actually, it\u2019s a pretty good report. Actually, it\u2019s pretty generous in some places, in saying, \u201CLook, the last Government did try very hard to try and build more houses\u201D, and it acknowledges that. It also says that it was well intentioned in doing that as well. So, I think, actually, it\u2019s a pretty balanced approach. So shooting the messenger, to me, was quite the wrong thing and an unfair thing to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003ELook, well, there are a number of messages which I see in this report. The first of them is the lack of financial discipline. You have to ask the question\u2014I mean, KO, basically, were operating on the basis of saying, \u201CIf it costs more for us to deliver houses, we can just go to the Government, we can go to the Government for more money, and they\u2019ll help to bail us out\u201D. Well, I wonder how many other places within the previous Government administration that was being done, not just KO but right across the board. Of course, that has come home to roost.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EWhat that does is that has increased our cost of debt, so our cost of debt now is, what, close to\u2014servicing debt is close to $9 billion. Gosh, we could spend $9 billion and do something else much more useful than paying for debt that\u2019s been run up, and has been grown at such a great rate. Secondly, it\u2019s pushed interest rates up much higher than they were, so everybody that is paying a mortgage, everybody that is paying a debt on a business, they are paying for that profligacy as well. Then, of course, there is the impact that that has on employment and the economy. So these choices, this lack of discipline, is not cost-free, and we are bearing that cost as a nation at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EThe report talks about saying that the average KO house costs $35 million\u2014sorry, $35,000. It\u2019s not $35 million\u2014that would be getting a bit excessive. But it costs $35,000 more than the equivalent average that was built by somebody else. So they\u2019re costing more, and we\u2019ve all heard the stories of KO going and outbidding other bidders for land or for buildings. That is profligacy. That is them just saying, \u201CLook, we know we can have more money. All we want to do is we want to build more houses\u201D. That\u2019s a good thing. That\u2019s a good thing to do, but not at any price, not with a blank cheque book, and that\u2019s the approach that they were taking. So they did build more houses, but they were deliberately going out and outbidding other people for doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EWhat we see in the report too is that the expectation is that they will be spending $23\u00A0billion more over the next four years\u2014$23 billion more. We heard over the last 24\u00A0hours or so that that equates\u2014because most people will look at $23 billion and say, \u201CWell, that sounds like a lot of money, but I can\u2019t quite envisage that\u201D. That is $4,000 for every man, woman, and child in this country. That is the cost of the way that KO was doing business, and that is why something needed to change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EThe second thing is that KO became a landlord to be feared, and that was because of their \u201Cno consequences\u201D approach to their own tenants. Look, we all heard those stories, and they were appalling. Look, we have in the report here a great quote in the foreword from a social housing tenant: \u201CHaving a permanent place to call home changes everything about life.\u201D\u2014absolutely\u2014\u201CIt gives stability and helps with your health. You can plan for the future. For me it means I can have my grandkids whenever I want to\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EBut I want to talk to you about security, because how can you have security when you have the neighbours from hell and their landlord won\u2019t do something about it, and they didn\u2019t do something about it on the instructions\u2014the explicit instructions\u2014of the previous Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EI spoke to a KO manager when I was out and about, in fact, in your area, Grant, and what he said\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224732f11926e14552a5500e59a46c9e12\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: Mighty Northland\u2014mighty Northland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f449d7829a3c4299808d6ac1c44a2d4c\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER\u003C/span\u003E: What he said in the mighty Northland was simply that the change of approach that this Government has taken to that has changed some of those bad tenant behaviours, and that is a great thing. So not only have we got to deal with bad tenant behaviour but we\u2019ve also got to make sure we deal with bad commercial practices. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EIn the last couple of seconds\u2014we\u2019ve got there\u2014the last thing I want to say is that KO was also a submitter from hell to deal with when it came to district planning, because they brought all their lawyers. It was a horrendous process for the poor communities, and they need to do a much better job than that, too. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0114b576d97402998540062b2bf25f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0114b576d97402998540062b2bf25f3\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Hauraki-Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 koe, otir\u0101, t\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 t\u0101tou e te whare. E t\u016B ana au ki te waha i ng\u0101 k\u014Drero m\u014D t\u0113nei take, \u0101, e t\u016B ana m\u014D Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori i t\u0113nei w\u0101.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E[Greetings to you and to everyone present in the House. I stand to speak to this matter, and stand to represent Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori right now.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EIn this country, our M\u0101ori children\u2014our M\u0101ori mokopuna\u2014suffer. They have suffered under every Government, and today the suffering continues. All wh\u0101nau have a right to warm, leak-free, secure homes, yet 30,000 tamariki are hospitalised every year in this country because of substandard housing. Further, over 100,000 people are homeless in Aotearoa and 60 percent of them are M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003ETangata whenua should never be homeless in their own land. Regardless, it seems it is this Government\u2019s objective to do exactly that. The detail, the truth, of our people with whom we are displaced and dispossessed, is in the history of this country. We need only reflect on land loss; the Native Schools Act, which displaced tamariki M\u0101ori from their wh\u0101nau and their whenua; and urbanisation which forced M\u0101ori into cities, into social housing, and into a cycle that continues today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EI can say that as it is, M\u0101ori make up of half of the social housing wait list. It is M\u0101ori that make up one-third of those living in damp, overcrowded, and unsafe housing. When we create an environment, a way of life, for people and that continues through legislation, through law, and through Budget to keep them in the same cycles whilst judging and ridiculing them in this House, what message are we sending? Can the people\u2014can our people\u2014really trust this Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EWe know as Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori that we understand our people. We listen to what they ask and we can respond to these calls. Our solution to the historical oppression of our people through housing\u2014or, rather, lack thereof\u2014would be to build papa k\u0101inga [original homes], a cost estimated to be $600\u00A0million. I actually live on a papa k\u0101inga housing with my own whenua growing m\u0101ra [garden] kai and through my whakapapa, which clearly speaks to the privilege that I\u2019m allowed to have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EWe would introduce rent controls with higher incomes, end property speculation, and allocate 50\u00A0percent of new social housing to M\u0101ori\u2014given we make up the majority of those who utilise these services. We want better for our people, for our mokopuna, and this Government threatens our very existence unless we assimilate, conform, and keep ourselves from sharing what they consider our unhelpful comments. No reira, t\u0113n\u0101\u00A0r\u0101 t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022 data-id=\u00229cf63e2c725b41bca4bddbf323e5a593\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229cf63e2c725b41bca4bddbf323e5a593\u0022\u003EHon Dr MEGAN WOODS (Labour\u2014Wigram):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. I\u2019m very pleased to have the opportunity to speak in this urgent debate, because I think there are some very serious matters before this House that do require a conversation that goes beyond soundbites and headlines and actually look at some of the facts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo I would like to start by thanking the people who put their lives into making K\u0101inga Ora a fantastic organisation that has delivered more State houses in New Zealand\u2019s history than any Government since the 1950s. I\u2019d like to thank those people, from the people who governed to the people that work each and every day to deliver those houses, who in the last 24 hours have been demonised\u2014and, in fact, over the last years by the National Party have been demonised, as have the tenants within our State houses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThere are some things in this review of K\u0101inga Ora - Homes and Communities that I\u00A0agree with. Indeed, they recommend the continuation of some of the policies of the previous Government, and in many ways pick up on the 2023 spending, funding, and financing review that our Government instituted back in 2023 to look at the financial sustainability. But there is one thing that you cannot get away from in this report, and that is the elephant in the report: this is nothing more than priming the public up for the fact that (a) next week there will be no new income-related rent subsidy for housing in the Budget, and (2) it is a softening up for once again the sell-off of State houses in New Zealand. These are the two things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ENow, to have a State house or a public house, if you will, or social housing, you require two things: you require someone to build it and the necessary capital. But where the Government and where choices that Governments make come in is what funding is put in in the form of income-related rent subsidy funding; that\u2019s what turns a building into a public house, a State house, or a social house. And it doesn\u2019t matter whether it\u2019s K\u0101inga Ora or a CHP\u2014community housing provider\u2014that is providing that service. But the fact of the matter is this Government is gearing up New Zealand for the fact they are walking away from the kind of commitment that the Labour-led Government made around housing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ENow, we have Chris Bishop saying that he was presented with a fiscal cliff that they didn\u2019t know about because the bad Labour Government did not fund what he knew he wouldn\u2019t be able to get through a National Party Cabinet. But I absolutely remember putting out a press release during the election saying there is funding for income-related rent subsidy to 2025. The Labour Party, in a costed manifesto commitment that went into the books that we stacked up\u2014our budget that we would have implemented\u2014was committing to an extra 6,000 State houses. This present Government\u2014the National Party\u2014have to own up to the fact that they once again are reverting to type and they are walking away from a commitment to State housing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003EThis so-called need to sell off 10,000 houses was the result of advice commissioned in December in 2023 by the Minister of Finance after a discussion with her Treasury officials, no doubt about the fact there would be no further funding for income-related rent subsidy, and there are written questions to Kieran McAnulty with the Minister herself telling him this, that she commissioned that advice. And what did we hear from K\u0101inga Ora when they came to the select committee? That if there was more Government funding to add new State houses, new income-related rent subsidy, they wouldn\u2019t have to sell any off. This was advice prepared for a Government that was gearing up to do what it always does and back away from its commitments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002237a99b65-4919-4800-830d-3dd7c920d5cd\u0022\u003ESo the real test of the mettle of this Government is next Thursday and how much new funding there will be into income-related rent subsidy. I will compare that to our record in Government, when each and every year we committed to funding new and additional\u2014and additional is the key word\u2014public houses. And this nonsense that we privileged K\u0101inga Ora over the CHPs and somehow we only went there\u2014CHPs more than doubled under our Government. The fact of the matter is when you put money in to expand your public housing, both CHPs and K\u0101inga Ora do it. We do not think it is one or the other. And the evidence is that under our Government, CHPs added 7,255 new places; K\u0101inga Ora built 7,777. So there is a lot of nonsense, a lot of rhetoric\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00227d145146d1df442886919e77eb7f8a94\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d145146d1df442886919e77eb7f8a94\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022 data-id=\u00229ad196682ce84d168b0bbbff0fc9f62d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ad196682ce84d168b0bbbff0fc9f62d\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA (Associate Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to scaffold the articulate and agile k\u014Drero of my learned colleague and sentinel the Minister of Housing, Christopher Bishop, and to respond, respectfully, to the king of hyperbole from Wairarapa and the Nostradamus of housing from Christchurch, who have demonstrated\u2014demonstrated\u2014some of the sheepish guilt that they must feel\u2014sheepish because some of the lowlights of the last six years by a Government that\u2019s been misguided, and devoting energy and wasteful spending on housing support for needy New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003ERoll call coming, people: an increase of emergency housing support from under $90,000 a day to over $1 million a day; the moral and social catastrophe of nearly 3,000\u00A0kids in emergency housing; an increase of the social housing register from around 5,000 to, now, 25,000 households; an operating deficit at K\u0101inga Ora (KO) of over a half a billion per annum, estimated to be $720 million by 2026 and 2027\u2014could have built a medical school in Hamilton for that sort of money\u2014decreasing homeownership, particularly among M\u0101ori and Pasifika; an extra $170 per week rent increase for New Zealand households\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022292e4abfaa534b4ea1c44083879f22f8\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: Shameful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2c206455055431698f2249a3545c982\u0022\u003EHon TAMA POTAKA\u003C/span\u003E: Shameful. Revenue at K\u0101inga Ora getting a lot less than expenses. And debt expected to go to $23 billion. And work in progress growing from $472 million in 2018 to nearly $3 billion in 2028. Rental debt in K\u0101inga Ora going from $1 million in 2017 to $21 million in 2023. And over 450 people living in K\u0101inga Ora homes who owe more than $10,000 at the end of 2023. Our previous Government\u2019s track record and track of spending will have K\u0101inga Ora spend $21.4\u00A0billion over the next four years. Every Kiwi\u2014every single Kiwi\u2014would pay $4,000 for that privilege. And, now, even for a real blow, especially for my whanaunga in the Opposition\u2014hopefully the permanent Opposition, if you listen to Matua Shane Jones\u2014over 10,000\u00A0extra M\u0101ori households on the social housing register in the last six years, and over 1,000 more M\u0101ori households living in hotels and motels and places like Ulster Street, Hamilton; Fenton\u00A0Street, Rotorua; and up and down the motu. If that is not a roll call worth fighting against, what is?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EK\u0101inga Ora houses thousands\u2014tens of thousands, nay\u2014of people in very hard situations\u2014over 70,000 homes in our country. It\u2019s responsible for public assets worth billions, and relevant repairs and maintenance costs. And it\u2019s incumbent upon this Government to ensure that that job is done prudently, that job is done effectively, and that job\u00A0is done a whole lot better than the previous Government\u2019s attempt to provide social housing for the masses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EAnd after yesterday\u2019s announcements by the independent review, what have we found out? We have found that KO has a poor understanding of tenant outcomes, with decision making remote from those affected. We have made investments in KO and interventions separate from evidence. K\u0101inga Ora incentivises higher cost support and creates poverty traps for tenant wh\u0101nau. KO\u2019s performance has deteriorated, and their ability to maintain and renew assets is at risk. KO\u2019s financial viability is at risk, compounded by limited attention to value for money and apportionment of costs and revenue, making it difficult to have financial sense. Asset procurement is not done transparently nor delivering value\u00A0for money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EThis is absolutely shameful, and we are here to get housing back on track. We need to change the housing system\u2014yes, we do\u2014to be fit for purpose, and we will continue to both support State houses and support other people to provide social housing. There is not one single money tree that\u2019s going to solve all the housing challenges that we face as communities. There\u2019s not one. The recommendations of the independent review are even more pressing\u2014for example, consolidating the Government funding for housing outcomes under the Minister of Housing, my learned sentinel Christopher Bishop, supported by the Ministry of Housing and Urban Development; the Ministry of Housing directing Housing and Urban Development to take a social investment approach to social housing; and responsible Ministers to set an expectation that the K\u0101inga Ora board will have a credible plan to improve financial performance. That\u2019s quite a novel idea for some people in this room, but not for us in this party or this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002232601127-a1e9-4ba0-b6af-99865a84a209\u0022\u003EAnd, finally, can I add this: the Opposition can deride Sir Bill English. They can put him down. But I attest to his honesty, his integrity, and his absolute genuine empathy for those people who are less well off, and I appreciate his commitment to the ongoing success of all New Zealanders and the provision of this independent review. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022 data-id=\u002281e486906eaf483f8e44bf9ffcd7c44c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002281e486906eaf483f8e44bf9ffcd7c44c\u0022\u003ESHANAN HALBERT (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. First and foremost, I want to say how proud I am of the work that K\u0101inga Ora has done across Aotearoa New Zealand: the number of houses that they have built, the people and wh\u0101nau who they have supported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EWhen I look at my own backyard, Northcote housing development is one of the best examples of infrastructure development that this country has ever, ever seen. That particular development has a long whakapapa. It started under Helen Clark, it continued under Key, the houses were bult under the Ardern-Hipkins Governments, and here we are\u00A0today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EWhen I think about next Thursday, when we hear the Budget, what will we see? But, more importantly, what won\u2019t we see? We won\u2019t see more additional funding for public and State housing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003ELast Friday, I went and looked at the 85 new State houses that were opened in the Northcote housing development, part of 1,700 overall. What\u2019s important there is not just that I showed up and showed interest in public housing in our area but, actually, those houses, those apartments that are there were designed and developed and opened for our seniors, our over-65s. Now, that\u2019s important in that development because it works across communities. People have different needs. There is no one-size-fits-all when it comes to housing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003ELet me be clear that in that history of the Northcote housing development, there were no houses built under the last National Government. Zero. In fact, across New Zealand, they ended up with fewer overall State houses than what they started with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003ESo when this review was conducted and the report put up yesterday, it paves a way for this National Government, once again, to sell off\u2014to sell off\u2014State houses in this country. I\u2019m concerned because we\u2019re still building in Northcote, and I heard a Minister across the way talk about \u201CAfter the Budget, we\u2019re building houses, we\u2019re building infrastructure, we\u2019re building roads.\u201D, and so on and so forth. Well, not with the Budget that they\u2019re putting up next Thursday. But, most of all, we were already doing that. The Northcote housing development, 1,700 houses, a third of which are public houses; they\u2019ve got new transport connections. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EWe built a new primary school for the lowest decile on the North Shore of Auckland. We\u2019ve got 150 hospital beds waiting to open because this Government hasn\u2019t funded it.\u00A0In addition to that, the infrastructure that we built to address the flooding issues in our area, we invested under the Housing Acceleration Fund, and what we saw in the floods last year in Auckland is that that took in the water that Auckland saw, it then drained away the next day. The next suburb along the way was where the person died in Waihou\u00A0Valley.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003ENow, anyone in this House can criticise the previous Government on housing\u2014go for gold. But you tell me: where are your examples of success? Where did you build houses? Or are we going back to the 1990s of leaky homes, substandard houses, and one-size-fits-all for every family in this country? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EWhen I look at this report, you know, the context is important. They\u2019ve forgotten the facts in the debate that they\u2019ve put up today, and so it\u2019s important that they actually acknowledge the whole report that\u2019s there; not just the narrative and rhetoric that this Government wants to roll out. All they have wanted to do, pre-election and post-election, is put the boot in to K\u0101inga Ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c069cdb-968c-4f11-b126-92f9c655148b\u0022\u003EI finish this speech in the way that I started. I\u2019m proud of the work that K\u0101inga Ora has done. I\u2019m proud of the houses that they\u2019ve built. When I saw the community engagement team bringing new communities together in Northcote, I\u2019m proud of them\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002247952a6c838f411b8e205feb835b81f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247952a6c838f411b8e205feb835b81f5\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The time for this debate has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EThe debate having concluded, the motion lapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bee2211ae9944863859e51fc9448ea93\u0022\u003EAnnual Review Debate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227586a29146d841c28782b7a0aee866a6\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000393\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 9 May on the Appropriation (2022/23 Confirmation and Validation) Bill.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u0022eaad798bf217458eb2d3cf9c2e8504d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eaad798bf217458eb2d3cf9c2e8504d2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The House is in committee for further consideration of the Appropriation (2022/23 Confirmation and Validation) Bill. This is the debate on the financial position of the Government and the annual reviews of departments, Officers of Parliament, Crown entities, public organisations, and State enterprises, as reported on by select committees. There is one hour and 46 minutes remaining in this debate. New Zealand National has 15 minutes remaining. New Zealand Labour has 57 minutes remaining. The Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand has 15 minutes remaining. ACT New Zealand has 27 minutes remaining. New Zealand First has nine minutes. Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori has 16 minutes remaining.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EThe Government has indicated that the Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety\u00A0and the Minister of Agriculture will be available today to respond to members\u2019 questions. Each debate will be led off by the chairperson or another member of the committee that\u00A0considered annual reviews most closely related to the Minister\u2019s portfolios. These speeches should be a non-political report back to the committee from the select committee. The Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety is here for 45\u00A0minutes to\u00A0respond to members\u2019 questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022047c99531ef846e48cfad1529ac1feeb\u0022\u003EWorkplace Relations and Safety\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022 data-id=\u00220bbfc001de4842fdb2a3fffd4c76af80\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220bbfc001de4842fdb2a3fffd4c76af80\u0022\u003EDr PARMJEET PARMAR (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you so much, Madam Chair. On behalf of the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cae6da9459f9412aa9c83f6270c8e057\u0022\u003EDr Tracey McLellan\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order. Just seeking some clarity. You\u2019ve just said that the debate should kick off with the chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022426986fba7ac42e7b32ca8ab3c64e769\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: \u201COr\u201D\u2014I did say \u201Cor\u201D. Just let me find it\u2014\u201Cled off by the chairperson or another member of the committee that considered annual reviews\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c46de55f-b9e4-4c64-9ac6-877bd89c2fc5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022deb0725b14744039a1f538aaa5b30b0a\u0022\u003EDr Tracey McLellan\u003C/span\u003E: So we can have some clarification that the call is another member of that committee?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f291d43d2f0407381d028f99a63e1d9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. Education and Workforce Committee\u2014yes, that\u2019s correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022744f431657eb4c19b975cf1715681d20\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Madam Chair. The chair of the Education and Workforce Committee which oversaw this particular review with the Minister is currently available, I understand, so I\u2019m just wanting clarity as to why that has been allocated to another member of the committee. It\u2019s highly unusual, if the chair is available, for it to be conducted by another member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022230f9f3fd37a47f3a07cfc6a9a43130d\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: That is correct, but, as I said, \u201Cor another member of the committee\u201D. If the chair seeks a call, they will certainly get a call, but Dr Parmjeet Parmar sought the first call, so I\u2019ll continue. Thank you, member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce01e192b26742cbab4344ab73f54e2c\u0022\u003EDr PARMJEET PARMAR\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for that clarification. It\u2019s a real pleasure to take this call on behalf of the Education and Workforce Committee and lead this debate into the annual review of WorkSafe New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EDuring this hearing, we heard from WorkSafe New Zealand and also the Minister. The committee considered this to be an important area for the committee as we have the workforce component along with education, and I must say that the committee is a very busy committee\u2014we have very long meetings\u2014but it has been worthwhile to hear from WorkSafe New Zealand and also from the Minister in charge, the Hon Brooke van Velden. I want to acknowledge the work of all of the members of the select committee. I also want to acknowledge the chair, Katie Nimon, for leading the committee. As I said, it\u2019s a real pleasure for me to lead this debate of the annual review of WorkSafe New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EAs we know, WorkSafe is working towards three outcomes\u2014that is, preventing work-related illnesses, protecting mental wellbeing at work, and achieving equitable health and safety outcomes. During the annual review, we looked at the performance of WorkSafe New Zealand for 2022-23 and we focused on the financial situation of the entity. We asked questions around the $17.8 million funding gap which has been identified for the 2023-24 Budget. The response that we received from WorkSafe New Zealand was that this was not\u00A0because of overspending but it was because of some financial practices that were not well managed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EWe were also told that for the current year they have been using surpluses from the previous years. We have also been told that the entity, WorkSafe New Zealand, has taken some measures to close that gap and that is by disestablishing some roles\u2014128 roles were disestablished\u2014and with that, the funding gap has been reduced by about $12 million. When we received the report, at that time, WorkSafe\u2019s headcount was 654. So that restructuring happened, and because of this the funding gap has been reduced. We were assured that this restructuring did not affect investigator or inspector roles, and nobody in the front line was affected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EWe discussed workplace harm and trends and we heard that there are some industries where injuries happen more often\u2014not just injuries but also deaths at workplaces. These industries are forestry, agriculture, manufacturing, and construction. We heard that it was difficult to compare across these industries because of the size and the scale.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EWe heard that M\u0101ori, Pasifika, and migrant workers are overrepresented in these stats\u2014those who get injured or have fatal injuries at workplaces. We heard was that this was not because these people are M\u0101ori, Pasifika, or migrant workers, but it was because these people are also overrepresented in sectors that are considered to be high-risk sectors like I listed before\u2014forestry, agriculture, manufacturing, and construction\u2014and that WorkSafe is doing everything possible by collaborating with other agencies as well to make sure that these kind of injuries and deaths can be reduced. We heard that they have been collaborating with the Employers and Manufacturers Association. They are also working closely with ACC. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EWe heard that WorkSafe New Zealand has been responding to some emergencies and unexpected events as well. It was important to hear that they have been providing some guidance to employers as well, but what was interesting to hear was that the proportion of people who found its guidance very useful dropped from 94 percent in 2020-2021 to 79\u00A0percent in 2022-2023. We asked the reason for this decline, because this is a significant decline. We were told that this is because WorkSafe has been quite thinly spread out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002258eae615-ef83-4df5-bace-6749bdd312a8\u0022\u003EThat takes me to the hearing that we had with the Minister, the Hon Brooke van Velden\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022076f764c984a4d03b5d13eb40db9e4b9\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc3b47d83f744e6086ab8f91b5493666\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc3b47d83f744e6086ab8f91b5493666\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you for the opportunity to take part in the annual review debate with the Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety. As the previous speaker indicated, we did hear from the Minister during the annual review process in relation to WorkSafe, and I understand the annual review will also cover the Treasury and annual review, which sets out the Government\u2019s strategic intentions. So I\u2019ll be indicating to the Minister that my questions will be around the annual review which she attended and also the annual review that was heard by the Finance and Expenditure Committee as it relates to her portfolios.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo the questions I had for the Minister initially are in relation to health and safety. The Minister has indicated that one of her priorities as Minister is to review the Health and Safety at Work Act, and I wanted to ask the Minister the progress that she has made in relation to that review. I have considered some of the advice that she\u2019s received from officials on the possible ways that the Health and Safety at Work Act could be reviewed, and I understand that that takes into account the year under review and also her strategic intent going forward in relation to changes she wants to make.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo the questions I have for the Minister are really: has she made a decision about the nature of the review and to help the Health and Safety at Work Act? And to what extent will that be looking at changes to the legislation or, as officials have suggested, changes to the regulatory system which underpins the Health and Safety at Work Act and has been suggested by officials to be perhaps an area for review.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI wanted to ask the Minister about a statement that she made during a Simpson Grierson webinar where she said she wanted to ensure a balance between protecting workers and taking into account the costs and benefits. And I wanted to get an indication from her as to what she meant when she said that there needed to be a balance in relation to both those things, and what\u2014the question that flows from that\u2014is too high a cost to pay in respect of workers\u2019 health and safety?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe Minister will be well aware that New Zealand has twice the workplace fatality rate of Australia, and, as noted in a recent briefing, six times the rate of the UK. I think the committee would all agree that that is a shameful statistic. With that in mind, I wanted to refer back to some of the questions that were put to the Minister in the annual review in relation to the resourcing of WorkSafe and the number of inspectors that she intends to retain in those positions, and whether she can in fact guarantee to the committee that there won\u2019t be reductions in the number of inspectors\u2014given those statistics which I\u2019ve just read out, which were traversed during the annual review programme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EAdditionally\u2014and I\u2019m just wanting to get some of these questions in relation to this particular area to the Minister while I have the call\u2014she would note that there are very, very embarrassing and terrible statistics in relation to the impact of workplace fatalities and also workplace injuries for M\u0101ori and Pasifika communities. I wanted to know from the Minister: does she recognise this? And in what way, in her review, will these particular very terrible statistics for these particular communities be taken into account moving forward? So I\u2019ll leave it there for the Minister. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4fe980005f4478aad2f01e03e54f5b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4fe980005f4478aad2f01e03e54f5b3\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. So just following on from the previous comments from the member to my right\u2014Camilla Belich\u2014I was interested in following on the line of questioning on workers\u2019 rights and worker safety.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI think worker safety is really important to unpack more, because, ultimately, we\u2019re talking about companies that are making profits off the back of these workers\u2014labourers\u2014who often actually put their own lives at risk. This has been alluded to: New Zealand does have quite a high rate of workplace mortality. So I wanted to know whether the Minister thinks that the current resourcing of the labour inspectorate is enough to ensure employers are meeting their legal obligations to workers. If not, does she think therefore that an increase in that funding is necessary to ensure that workers are actually being protected and employers meet their legal obligations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI was also interested in, I guess, comparing the number of complaints that the labour centre\u2019s officer received over the period we reviewed and how many of these complaints were actually investigated to the end and then comparing that with the complaints that were unable to be investigated due to lack of resourcing and the workload that exists, and whether she thinks that balance is right in terms of the number of investigations that are actually completed to the full extent or otherwise, and whether she\u2019s received any advice around the capacity of the labour inspectorate regarding its capacity\u2014particularly during the period we\u2019re looking at\u2014but how that is actually giving her guidance about any future policy settings that she may be looking at.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI acknowledge, as well, the connection between immigration settings and her portfolio, and one of the areas that I wanted to touch on around migrant exploitation and migrant workers\u2019 wellbeing was whether she was satisfied that WorkSafe doesn\u2019t seem to collate information around people\u2019s visa status\u2014whether it\u2019s incidents\u2014and whether that\u2019s actually useful for the purposes of actually having a clearer picture as to whether people on temporary visas face disproportionate risks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI take the point from the select committee member Parmjeet Parmar that there\u2019s this acknowledgment that migrant workers are overrepresented in some of those more dangerous industries, but that doesn\u2019t actually capture whether having a temporary visa\u2014thinking a migrant worker\u2014in and of itself actually creates a higher risk for those workers to be in situations where their lives may be put at risk. So I\u2019m interested to know whether she thinks that the way in which we collate, collect information around workplace incidents accurately paints a picture around the situation that migrant workers are experiencing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI\u2019m also keen for her to expand around the changes that WorkSafe has made since the SageBush report on the Strategic Baseline Review, which found that WorkSafe was failing to intervene in key areas. That report is from that period, so I\u2019m interested to know whether she\u2019s taking that report and taking more actions as a result of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EFinally, I\u2019m keen to get a sense of what advice has been provided to WorkSafe or the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment on banning engineered stone to prevent workers from exposure to silica dust. I mean, this has been an ongoing issue\u2014it\u2019s not a new issue and it definitely was an issue during the period we\u2019re reviewing\u2014but I\u2019m keen to know whether incidents that may or may not have been happening during the period are now informing any of her strategic priorities around the types of materials that workers use that actually put their health at risk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef38b3f3c3414bc59807d7af0afc83c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef38b3f3c3414bc59807d7af0afc83c0\u0022\u003ETAKUTAI TARSH KEMP (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014T\u0101maki Makaurau):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Chair. T\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou e te Whare. There are just a few p\u0101tai from us here at Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori. The first one is around 90-day trials.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022\u003EWhen this Government announced that it would be reintroducing 90-day trials, the reason they gave was that it would make it easier for businesses to hire people, which would get more people off the benefit and into work. But research commissioned by the Treasury in 2016 found no evidence that the ability to use trial periods significantly increases firms\u2019 overall hiring, and no evidence that the policy increased the probability that a new hire by a firm was a disadvantaged job seeker. It also found that the main benefit of the policy was a decrease in dismissal costs for firms, while many employees faced increased uncertainty about their job security for three months after being hired. In other words, the 90-day trial policy is not about making it easier to hire workers; it\u2019s about making it easier to fire them. It\u2019s not about protecting workers; it\u2019s about protecting unfair employers from any consequences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022\u003EOther research shows that weak protection against dismissal can also lead to poorer production and less innovation. It is M\u0101ori, Pasifika, rangatahi, and wh\u0101nau haua who bear the brunt of this 90-day trial policy. All evidence suggests that this policy will make life worse for M\u0101ori and anyone in Aotearoa who doesn\u2019t run a large and exploitative business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022\u003EMy question is: what evidence does the Minister have that shows that reducing 90-day trials will make it easier for businesses to hire people and lead to more people off the benefit and into work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022\u003EFair pay agreements\u2014our p\u0101tai: how will the removal of fair pay agreements support M\u0101ori workers when the median hourly wage for M\u0101ori is $24.98, compared to $28.01 for P\u0101keh\u0101, and when M\u0101ori are overrepresented in jobs where low pay, job security, health and safety, and upskilling are significant issues?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022\u003EHealth and safety are problems in industries like forestry, farming, trucking, and fisheries, which often kill M\u0101ori at work. Minimum industry-wide standards would provide a baseline and keep our people safe, regardless of whether they are a member of a union or not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002256295840-7a18-46fb-bbb3-164ac3edf716\u0022\u003EMinimum wage cuts\u2014I also have a few questions regarding changes to the minimum wage introduced this year. So the p\u0101tai is: does the Minister accept that only increasing the minimum wage by 2 percent, when inflation is at 4.7 percent, is a cut to the minimum wage in real terms? P\u0101tai tuarua: what is the Minister\u2019s response to the fact that this effective cut to the minimum wage will increase child poverty rates, given that 64 percent of families in poverty are in work? Does she accept that this decision will not just hurt workers but will cost the Government more in the long run, including through higher payments and tax credits and higher support for rental payments? How are workers meant to keep up with rising food and rent costs when the Government is cutting their wages in real terms? Will the Minister commit to delivering annual increases to the minimum wage that keep up with the rising costs to ensure workers have a livable income to support their wh\u0101nau; if not, why not? And how can the Minister stand by taking money from hundreds of thousands of workers during a cost of living crisis? Kia ora t\u0101tou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022f846cd3cb10a42acb5873efd941a7eea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f846cd3cb10a42acb5873efd941a7eea\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. It would be good to hear some of the responses to my previous answers in relation to health and safety when the Minister seeks to take a call. But I do have some further questions in relation to that particular part of her portfolio. We traversed, during the annual review debate, with the Minister and also with WorkSafe, the advice that the Minister has received in relation to engineered stone and the related very concerning silicosis disease that can come from engineered stone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EAt the time of the hearing, the Minister said she was receiving advice on that and, subsequently, has publicly said that she has received advice on that, and I\u2019m wanting to know from the Minister if there\u2019s been an update in relation to the advice on her work in relation to this very concerning area. We know that there are people in New Zealand receiving medical treatment as a result of their exposure to engineered stone, and I\u2019d be very keen to hear from the Minister on what the content of her most recent advice is that she announced on Q\u002BA that she\u2019d received that week, which\u2014I can\u2019t find the exact date of that interview\u2014was probably about a month ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI would also like to ask the Minister for an update in relation to the priorities for mental health in the workplace. During our annual review, the Minister helpfully said that she was looking at her strategic priorities in relation to workplace mental health, and I wanted to ask the Minister if she had an update in relation to her work in that area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EAnother question, related to a question I had asked in an earlier call, was in relation to the front-line inspectors. At the annual review, it was confirmed by the Minister that front-line inspectors for WorkSafe had not been affected by the job cuts to date\u2014the strategic baseline review that had been conducted within WorkSafe. There has been reported to be further job cuts at WorkSafe, and I wanted to ask the Minister, in relation to the strategic ability of that organisation to uphold its duties to protect New Zealanders\u2019 workplace health and safety, whether there had been any other decisions that had been made and whether the statement still stands that front-line WorkSafe inspectors will not be impacted by the cuts to WorkSafe\u2019s budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EJust while the Minister is receiving advice, I also had some questions in relation to the regulations that hadn\u2019t yet been modernised under the Health and Safety at Work Act, and so they are, namely, the plant and structures project, hazardous substances, and also hazardous work regulations. These have been singled out by officials as key regulatory instruments that need to be looked at by the Minister and a key way of making the Health and Safety at Work Act better meet the needs of New Zealanders. So I\u2019m interested to hear if there has been an update on whether the Minister is progressing those particular modernisation work plans in that line of work. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022 data-id=\u00229f1e62bc8f4d4c609d29dd65eb86e833\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229f1e62bc8f4d4c609d29dd65eb86e833\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Thank you all for your lovely contributions. It\u2019s very exciting to be here for the first time at the annual review hearing. I just wanted to start by touching on a couple of the topics. The first was from Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March asking about the labour inspectorate. In this specific time frame for this review, the labour inspectorate delivered 3,174 interventions, which very much exceeded the 2021-22 full year result by 39 percent, and over their estimated target of 2,200 interventions per year, for the second year running. That built on a 47 percent increase in output between 2020-21 and 2021-22. I have a lot of faith in our labour inspectorate, and I think the people who go out and do those jobs are wonderful New Zealanders and they have my full backing. I expect in this year they will also do a fantastic job and they have my full support, making sure that labour standards are upheld.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EI also just wanted to touch on the different type of inspectors, which is the WorkSafe investigators raised by the member Camilla Belich, asking whether or not we can guarantee that the number of inspectors will increase rather than decrease. I just wanted to alert the\u00A0member to the fact that, under the previous Government, which this review is about, the\u00A0number of WorkSafe inspectors dropped from 211 to 195. At the same time, the head count for WorkSafe increased exorbitantly. So that is something that the previous Government did: they cut the number of inspectors while the number of people at WorkSafe increased. I have a great lot of faith in our new chair, board, and the CEO of WorkSafe, and\u00A0I\u00A0understand that at April 2024, WorkSafe started training another 19\u00A0inspectors to join their investigators. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EI just wanted to touch a little bit on some comments about the 90-day trials and the minimum wage. Now, for anybody who might be listening or following along on TV, it might not be very obvious from some of the comments made that, under the previous Government, 90-day trials existed. So all of these terrible, terrible comments about 90-day trials; that was the previous Government\u2019s policy. All that this Government has done is said, \u201CHey, it really worked really, really well for small businesses. Let\u2019s expand that for large corporates and larger companies too. If it worked well for the small companies, let\u2019s make it work for the big ones.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EWhen it comes to the minimum wage and explaining a little bit about how we landed at that 2\u00A0percent increase for this year, I think that was the right measure to make because it balanced the interests of both workers in a cost of living crisis as well as business owners who are finding it really, really tough at the moment even to make sure that they can pay their employees. And so we have made that balance, but also taking into account that over the last seven years, Consumers Price Index, or inflation, went up by around 25\u00A0percent. At the same time, under the previous Government, the minimum wage went up by 50 percent. That was really, really high in comparison to what the inflation rate was going up at. So we, as a Government, have sought to rebalance that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe966f0735ae41f9b96def1b4683a45b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe966f0735ae41f9b96def1b4683a45b\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. The Minister and colleagues in the committee will be very aware that over the last year or so, there\u2019s been a very observable uptick in cases of migrant worker exploitation. I think it\u2019s in large part associated with very high levels of inward migration as policy settings were loosened as the country came out of COVID and faced intense skills shortages, and a great deal of pressure was there from industries who were desperate to get workers. There\u2019s been quite a lot of debate in and around the House about whether there are sustainable levels of inward migration\u2014talking about temporary workers\u2014and how the settings like the accredited employer work visa can be reformed to reduce the opportunity for migrant worker exploitation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI\u2019m not wanting to drag immigration into this debate, but the Minister is responsible for the labour inspectorate. The inspectorate plays a very important role in policing migrant worker exploitation, amongst other things. I think that most would agree that migrant worker exploitation is a pretty ubiquitous risk in our economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003ESo the first question I have for the Minister is around the statistics that she shared with the committee earlier about the number of cases dealt with by the inspectorate. Has she got numbers for cases involving migrant worker exploitation? I think the committee would be very interested to know whether there are figures on that and whether the Minister has a view about the relative status and importance and priority of dealing with cases of migrant worker exploitation for the inspectorate in relation to all of the other priorities and demands on the inspectorate\u2019s time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EWe\u2019ve seen, unfortunately, a number of cases in the media of large groups of workers finding themselves without a job. They\u2019re here, they find themselves without a job, they then spend weeks, or even months, living in extremely overcrowded and difficult conditions, often dependent on charity to survive. I don\u2019t think anybody wants to see that. I\u2019m interested in what thoughts the Minister has given to how the inspectorate can actually assist in the tightening up of the whole system to reduce or eliminate these kinds of cases.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003ETwo of the sectors that I think have been most associated with this have been the labour hire sector and also the construction sector. Also, I would like to know if the Minister has given any consideration or received any advice about the policy reforms that could address this problem, and, putting to one side questions of visas and the immigration settings, whether or not the Minister has thought, for example, about the implementation of standardised employment contracts in industries, like construction, where it\u2019s reported there are very high levels of abuse and exploitation of migrant workers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EI wonder whether or not the idea of guaranteed weekly hours\u2014currently, migrant workers can be doing 30 hours a week. For many of them, it\u2019s simply not enough to survive. If they\u2019re in an industry that\u2019s highly casualised and un-unionised, they find themselves doing very low numbers of hours per week and they find themselves in a very challenging situation in terms of survival.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThe third idea that I wanted to ask the Minister about, really, is in relation to Recognised Seasonal Employer (RSE) workers. I\u2019m interested to know what her view is about whether or not an opt-out unionisation clause which would give RSE workers easy and immediate access to union protection to avoid and prevent cases of exploitation\u2014with, of course, a nod to the important principle of freedom of association, and people would have the right to opt out. But I put it to the Minister that if that policy was in place, RSE workers would have a ready source of advocates to deal with many of the exploitation problems that are currently a feature of a number of those employment situations. I\u2019ll leave it there for the moment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u002245a4cdbdec7d4a7bbc0b5892bced47ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245a4cdbdec7d4a7bbc0b5892bced47ae\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Good timing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022158d864b8c3a4417baa2963ee3e99e56\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022158d864b8c3a4417baa2963ee3e99e56\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and I look forward to again hearing some of the Minister\u2019s answers to my previous question. I noted her comments on the previous Government, but I also wanted to know: will she guarantee that the number of WorkSafe inspectors will not decrease under her watch? So that was my question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI want to move on to a different area, though, and I want to talk about modern slavery. This is a very important piece of work that was undertaken in the year in review by the previous Government and supported by a tripartite group of many different organisations who are very concerned about the lack of modern slavery regulation in New Zealand and the fact that we can\u2019t guarantee that a lot of things that arrive in New Zealand have been made without conditions that we would find absolutely intolerable and inhumane in other countries. I wanted to ask her what progress she has made on addressing modern slavery and exploitation in New Zealand\u2019s supply chain, and, if she does indeed agree with members of the coalition Government who have said that this was currently not being developed, how, then, will she be ensuring that we meet New Zealand\u2019s obligations under the New Zealand - EU free-trade agreement, which requires legislation on modern slavery when it calls on parties in the agreement to prioritise labour rights in the supply chain, and to promote corporate and social responsibility and responsible business conduct, including responsible supply chain management, by providing supportive policy frameworks that encourage the uptake of relevant practices in businesses?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI also wanted to ask her: if the Government is not working on implementing modern slavery legislation, then how will she ensure that the New Zealand - UK free-trade agreement is adhered to? It states that each party should adopt and maintain measures to facilitate private and public sector entities to identify and address modern slavery in the global and domestic supply chains. This is extremely important work. It was under the work plan of the year in review. The statements of Government members who are not of her party have been that it is not going to be progressed. There is a large amount of disappointment not only within organisations that support and advocate for human rights but also businesses that know that New Zealand\u2019s reputation internationally will be severely damaged if modern slavery legislation is not introduced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003ESo I want to know from the Minister, given those international commitments, given the fact that the UK Government, when the justice Minister recently went overseas in order to talk about our human rights record, called on New Zealand to introduce modern slavery legislation that is inclusive of entities of all sizes with international supply chains in both the private and public sectors\u2014when allies like those are saying to us that we need to introduce legislation on modern slavery, I want to know from the Minister what her Government\u2019s answer is to those countries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022 data-id=\u00220f587be3bdfb417d9ebfb705182ba7ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f587be3bdfb417d9ebfb705182ba7ff\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much. I thought I\u2019d take two of these questions together because I think in some ways people are conflating the labour inspectorate and also the WorkSafe investigators, but they are kind of similar in some of the roles that they do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003ESo touching on the labour inspectorate as to how it is involved in migrant exploitation, due to the question from Phil Twyford, I can tell the member that 35 percent of all labour inspectorate investigations completed in the year that we\u2019re reviewing of 2022-23 involved migrant exploitation, which shows the seriousness of the breaches that are involved in our country. I would certainly hope that all members of this Parliament take the issue of migrant exploitation very seriously and have the deep belief that all people in our country should expect that their rights are upheld\u2014no matter where they have come from, no matter how long they\u2019ve been in this country\u2014that everybody should have that same right of dignity and respect in the workplace.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EWhen it comes to Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u2019s question, which was talking about workplace accidents, that has more to do with the WorkSafe investigators and whether or not we have statistics breaking that down into the visa status. At this point, I don\u2019t have that data, but that is actually something I\u2019m very interested in\u2014so I\u2019m very happy that he\u2019s interested in this too. I would hope that all people, no matter how long they\u2019ve been in the country, no matter who\u2019s employing them, know what their rights are and that the businesses that are employing them know what their obligations are to keep those people safe in the workplace. This is an area that I also look to do a little bit more work in, so I thank him very much for his question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EComing to a couple of questions from Camilla Belich about why we are wanting to reform the Health and Safety at Work Act\u2014this is going to be legislation or regulation. It\u2019s been, now, 10 years that we\u2019ve had the Health and Safety at Work Act, and businesses, sector groups, non-profit organisations, and successive Governments have all put a lot of investment into this regulatory system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EBut I think it\u2019s time for us to review that and see: is it the legislation that\u2019s working? Is it the regulations that are working? That\u2019s what part of the review is. So at this stage, I can\u2019t say whether or not it will be the legislation that could change or whether it\u2019s specific regulations, but that\u2019s the whole purpose of our consultation\u2014and that will be quite a fulsome consultation. If it shows that there are concerns with the underlying legislation, then there will be changes to be made. But at this stage it\u2019s at consultation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve also had that question about the content of the advice that we received on engineered stone. I firstly just want to say that my expectation with the health and safety system is that I want all workers to be able to come home safe; I want all people to come home safely to their families. I have received some advice on addressing the unsafe work practices related to engineered stone, and I plan to consult on a range of options later this year\u2014subject to approval from Cabinet\u2014on what this Government would seek to do on engineered stone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s currently a range of education and enforcement activities that is being led by WorkSafe to ensure businesses control the risks from working with engineered stone, but at this stage I am following the evolving approach in Australia. But it\u2019s very important that we use an evidence-based approach in a New Zealand context rather than simply replicating what\u2019s happening by our neighbours.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u0022674ecc17f6cd4967a2fc7fbb4f3a0250\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022674ecc17f6cd4967a2fc7fbb4f3a0250\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks to the Minister for her reflections on some of those questions. In relation to her previous comment, I wanted to ask the Minister: will her consultation on the steps taken on engineered stone include a consultation on a proposed ban in relation to that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe other questions that I have are on a slightly different matter. I wanted to raise some of her responsibilities in relation to pay equity and also in relation to pay transparency. As Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety, she has a role in the pay equity legislation that is before the House and would be aware that in the year under review, there was a\u00A0significant programme of pay equity settlements which were being undertaken. And I understand it\u2019s still progressing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EThe question that I had for the Minister was: when the Government said it was going to recommit to equal pay in a press release, what did the Government mean when it said that it would \u201Crecommit to equal pay\u201D? So that\u2019s my first question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EMy second question is about the pay equity task force, which in that same press release was disestablished. The pay equity task force had been operational in the year in review and had assisted with very complex pay equity settlements. I\u2019m sure those of us who worked in that area know how complex pay equity settlements can be in terms of the expertise that is required to settle a pay equity claim and look at the different evidence and comparators that need to be taken into account before a settlement is made. So I wanted to ask her: how will she ensure that the resources and expertise that were held by the pay equity task force that this Government has disestablished will not be lost like they were when the last National Government discontinued the pay equity unit in 2009 in a very similar way?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003EI also wanted to ask her about pay transparency and her plans in relation to that. She\u2019ll be aware that in the year under review it was announced the then Government was going to introduce a pay transparency regime that would require all businesses of 250 workers or more to conduct an audit of their workforce in relation to the pay that they received on gender. I wanted to ask, in relation to her strategic intent on that particular matter, what she intended to do in relation to pay transparency, and whether that\u2019s a work programme that she will be considering. We know that that particular work programme exists in a number of other different countries and was ongoing at the time the year under review took place. So if the Minister could comment on those areas in relation to pay transparency and pay equity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022 data-id=\u002260266bf8104240009135bd94bef80c01\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002260266bf8104240009135bd94bef80c01\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much. Look, it\u2019s a very exciting portfolio that I\u2019m responsible for. I think we\u2019ve heard from a range of nearly everything under the sun today, but, unfortunately, there\u2019s not enough time to get through all of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EI just wanted to touch on your question regarding compliance with free-trade agreements. My officials and myself consider free-trade agreements and international obligations as part of advice that comes to me on a range of different issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EWhen it comes to the SageBush review and asking about how much progress has been made, I\u2019m very happy with the progress that WorkSafe has been making on implementing the recommendations. The board and the chief executive have made it a priority for the agency. I understand quite a few of the recommendations have already been closed out and the remainder are well on track to be met by the end of this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022 data-id=\u002267327faed846422bb914aed056ba65fe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002267327faed846422bb914aed056ba65fe\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you to the Minister. I look forward to hearing some further responses to some of my other questions with the time that we do have remaining. I also wanted to ask the Minister about her reform of the law relating to contractors but also relating to the definition of \u201Cemployee\u201D within the Employment Relations Act. I know that this is an area of work that the Minister has been investigating, and I wanted to get an update from the Minister in relation to this work, on how that was progressing and how, if she decides to limit the rights of workers to have their employment status upheld or not by the relevant court or authority, there will be able to be natural justice for those people who are wrongly considered to be contractors and don\u2019t receive employment rights but wish to have the authority of the court determine that they are an employee and, thus, receive the employment rights which they are entitled to. And I wanted to know how she has progressed with that line of work and if she has any advice to the committee on what she intends to do in that area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221958aaafa2e04f89ad67edd7b4b479db\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Just to note that we\u2019re down to the last couple of minutes, so if there\u2019s contributions to be made\u2014Camilla Belich.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022259d86005a774189a068b3899fbc32ee\u0022\u003ECAMILLA BELICH\u003C/span\u003E: Just while the Minister is getting her answers together, just some of the more salient questions that I would quite like an answer to if the Minister is able to. The questions around pay equity: how will the Government protect pay equity when it\u2019s disestablished the unit? My question around pay transparency: is the Minister going to go forward with this work? My question around modern slavery: will this Government be taking its international obligations seriously and implementing modern slavery legislation, like social groups, like workers\u2019 rights organisations, like what businesses have advocated for? Can we please have an answer to those important areas? New Zealanders are waiting to hear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022 data-id=\u0022b855c033c2e44c32a4b2e762bad9d980\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b855c033c2e44c32a4b2e762bad9d980\u0022\u003EHon BROOKE VAN VELDEN (Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Look, on the issue of the pay equity taskforce, that\u2019s not actually a responsibility under my purview, so that\u2019s not really something that we can ask about. But the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment does provide advice to all employers about pay equity. That\u2019s very much available on their website. Anybody can find it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002266f06e7e-afa8-457f-a105-048b86a13282\u0022\u003EWhen it comes to the question of pay transparency, I just want to also note that this is a review about 2022-23, and there wasn\u2019t progress under that Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022c938488f391d41f88ea2bf9f9e248821\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c938488f391d41f88ea2bf9f9e248821\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, our time with the Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety has ended. The Minister of Agriculture is now available for one hour to respond to members\u2019 questions, but we\u2019ll just move the tables around.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022710f45f0ac424ed68a600d4b1fef656d\u0022\u003EAgriculture\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022 data-id=\u00224ca1cefe34ef417bb55e01a9ffd17ee4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ca1cefe34ef417bb55e01a9ffd17ee4\u0022\u003EMILES ANDERSON (Deputy Chairperson of the Primary Production Committee):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m very, very privileged to be able to give the annual review of the Ministry for Primary Industries on behalf of the select committee. I\u2019d like to thank all the committee members for the hard work that they did. In particular, I\u2019d like to acknowledge Mark Cameron, our chairperson, and also let him know that our committee is thinking of him at this time. I\u2019d also like to thank the Office of the Clerk\u2014they were sterling in the work they did for us\u2014and also the Office of the Auditor-General and the briefing they did for us, and we found them particularly high-class in what they did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022\u003EThe Ministry for Primary Industries provides policy and regulatory advice; market access; trade services; and manages the major regulatory systems for biosecurity, food safety, forestry, fisheries management, and animal welfare. It has five customer-facing business units: Biosecurity New Zealand, Fisheries New Zealand, New Zealand Food Safety, Te Uru R\u0101kau - New Zealand Forestry Service, and agricultural and investment services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022\u003ENow, a summary of the various areas that our committee looked into this year would come under various headings. In the agriculture space, we spent quite a bit of time on cyclone recovery, increasing the value of exports, work to reduce greenhouse emissions, M\u0101ori agribusiness, and measuring the success of grant funding. In the horticulture space, we focused on the spray-free orchard programme, building the horticulture workforce, and work to detect biosecurity threats. In forestry, boosting domestic wood processing and reducing forestry slash were the two main areas that we addressed; in biosecurity, we reviewed the Mycoplasma bovis programme; and in pest management, we focused on wallabies and the management of other pests, as well as wilding pines. We also looked at Government - industry agreement for foot and mouth disease. In the fisheries sector, we looked at the amendment of the Fisheries Act, on-board cameras, and temporary closing of fishing area for restricted fishing, and also looked at the honorary fishing officers and bottom trawling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022\u003EThen we were fortunate enough to have the various Ministers in for comment and review. In the cyclone recovery space\u2014[Interruption] Is that all? Ha, ha! So when we had the Ministers in for review, we heard from the Minister of Agriculture and Minister of Forestry about his ambitions for our primary industries in New Zealand. The Minister for Rural Communities talked about rural connectivity\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212a99902872843ef851cc5d06bd87745\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: And wool.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4833d76-15d7-484b-8e84-94c4aea8a510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1aac7448ddb461da193eaefe7b18051\u0022\u003EMILES ANDERSON\u003C/span\u003E: Reviving the wool industry was a big focus, whereas, with the Minister for Biosecurity, Minister for Food Safety, and Associate Minister of Agriculture, live animal exports, biosecurity to prevent threats from the horticulture sector, and response to the foot and mouth disease were the major areas of focus. So I\u2019m very happy to present this report to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u0022f513757884e54a5b95ea34f8c65aedf1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f513757884e54a5b95ea34f8c65aedf1\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. It\u2019s a pleasure to stand up and ask the Minister some questions with regard to our annual review. But first can I just acknowledge all the Ministers for making themselves available to come to our select committees. I know that you\u2019re very, very busy, and so it is really appreciated that you do take the time to come along and answer our questions. I just want to acknowledge my fellow committee members, and in particular Mark Cameron, our chair of the select committee, who does a really good job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EAs the member who has just spoken, Miles Anderson, has just mentioned, we looked at various entities within the agricultural sector, but it was really great to be able to do an in-depth review of the Ministry for Primary Industries (MPI). We had them for several hours, and at one point when we were deciding on the time we were going to have them in for, we wondered if we\u2019d be able to fill that time. But it was absolutely incredible to have them there for that time and we managed to fill that time easily, and we could well have had them in there for a bit longer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EI think I\u2019ll just cut straight to questions, because we are on limited time. The Minister guaranteed that reductions have not been made to MPI\u2019s front-line services and statutory staff, such as veterinarians; animal welfare, fisheries, and food compliance officers; and biosecurity at the border. But can the Minister guarantee\u2014absolutely 100 percent guarantee\u2014that as part of MPI\u2019s 10 percent reduction in staff, they will not be making cuts to those teams, who plan and prepare for potential biosecurity incursions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022 data-id=\u00221afc2e9f221d494a8c3804f992434756\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221afc2e9f221d494a8c3804f992434756\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and thank you to the Ministers, again, for fronting up and talking to us about the review. I\u2019m very proud to be part of a nation that has always had farming at its roots, from the first human contact. And we have also had biosecurity risks, but what we also have, at this point, are climate risks, and I\u2019m really interested in hearing what support the Government is giving to farmers to diversify farm income and decarbonise, particularly through electrification. And we have had Mike Casey from Rewiring New Zealand talk about the potential and the opportunity there is to decarbonise rural Aotearoa. So will the Government, for example, refresh and expand the Community Energy Fund to enable farmers to host wind and solar farms with M\u0101ori and community partners? This seems like a really simple way to both diversify farm income and support rural communities and ensure that we decarbonise at the same time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EAnd I\u2019m also interested in why this Government seems intent\u2014at this point in time, but you could change track\u2014in hanging farmers out to dry by not supporting farm-emissions reduction, not supporting biodiversity restoration, not supporting energy farming to provide resilience for remote communities, not supporting our farmers to adapt to the 21st century. Perhaps I\u2019ve got it wrong, perhaps you are going to do all those things, but I\u2019d like to hear some answers, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u00220072ca981a18404883efaf6678842ce0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220072ca981a18404883efaf6678842ce0\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. Minister, the M\u0101ori agribusiness team at the Ministry for Primary Industries plays a significant role in ensuring that M\u0101ori land owners are supported to access funding, expertise, and advice that is available to them.\u00A0Can the Minister guarantee that these services will not be cut; if not, how is the Minister going to ensure that M\u0101ori land owners are aware of and accessing the support available to them? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003ECan the Minister also guarantee continued funding for M\u0101ori-led and M\u0101ori-designed projects to help achieve emissions reduction in agriculture through the Climate Emergency Response Fund when his Government has plans to divert those funds in order to help pay for tax cuts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022 data-id=\u00228ebcc121ed4e482383e7f8bede3b07ec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ebcc121ed4e482383e7f8bede3b07ec\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Hauraki-Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 koe e te M\u0101ngai, o te ra t\u0113n\u0101 koe te Minita. I\u2019ve got a series of questions. The first question that I have is in relation\u2014I seek an update from the Minister on his work with M\u0101ori development Minister Potaka on progressing the issues arising from the Wai 262 claim and if there\u2019s any updates from the coalition Government in taking up on that claim.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EThe second p\u0101tai is whether the Minister can confirm that the M\u0101ori partnership and investment business unit with the Ministry for Primary Industries (MPI) has not been disestablished as a result of public sector cuts, and, if so, how the Minister intends to build the capability and support through the delivery of MPI\u2019s Treaty settlement commitments and ensure advice to Ministers reflects these commitments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003ETe p\u0101tai tua toru, the third question, is: I was a part of\u2014alongside my wh\u0101nau\u2014the first ever project or pilot project with MPI through m\u0101ra kai. So we\u2019re the first ever project on our whenua to develop m\u0101ra kai programmes with schools, with m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori, and I\u2019m wanting to get reassurance from the Minister if those programmes will still be carried out under this new Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003EThe fourth p\u0101tai is on genetic engineering technologies. I seek an update on the Minister\u2019s intentions, if any, on progressing regulations that foster research and innovation regarding genetic technologies. T\u0113n\u0101 r\u0101 koe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022 data-id=\u00227e8af9c2a44c4062b4e503e471d77afc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e8af9c2a44c4062b4e503e471d77afc\u0022\u003ECUSHLA TANGAERE-MANUEL (Labour\u2014Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe e te Heamana, n\u0101ku te whiwhi ki te k\u014Drero i runga i t\u0113nei r\u012Bpoata, ar\u0101, annual review of the Ministry for Primary Industries (MPI). He mihi hoki ki te Minita kua tae mai i t\u0113nei w\u0101. Heoi an\u014D, m\u0101ku he tautoko i ng\u0101 mihi aroha ki t\u014D m\u0101tou nei Tiamana, ki a Mark Cameron me t\u014Dna wh\u0101nau i t\u0113nei w\u0101 pouri rawa atu, e te hoa mahi, e te Tiamana t\u0113nei te tangi aroha ki a koutou ko t\u014D wh\u0101nau i t\u0113nei w\u0101 pouri.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003E[Thank you, Mr Chair. It is my honour to speak to this report, the annual review of the Ministry for Primary Industries. I would like to also acknowledge the Minister here today. And so, I would also like to share my loving support to our chairman, Mark Cameron, and his family during this very sad time. Dear friend, dear chairman, I share my sincere condolences with you and your family during this sad time.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EAs a member of the Primary Production Committee, it\u2019s my pleasure to be here to be part of the annual review of the MPI. My first question relates to forestry. The report notes that forestry export revenue is forecast to decrease by 9 percent to $5.8 billion in the year to 30 June 2024. MPI considers boosting domestic processing as one way of reducing reliance on the export market and that there are opportunities for new, innovative engineered wood products. Will the Minister take heed of this, and if so, what specific actions or investments will be made?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EFurthermore, obviously land use is a major topic of discussion not only with regard to forestry, but throughout the report it\u2019s raised in other industries such as the wool industry. What progress is being made there? Of course, slash and woody debris clean-up continue to be a major concern for Aotearoa Wh\u0101nui, but in particular Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti and flood affected areas. So can we have an update on the commitment to maintained investment in that, and how work will continue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u00228615cae924384066bebd969974d7a2b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228615cae924384066bebd969974d7a2b6\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I just want to move now to live exports. Unfortunately, I was away sick when we had the Minister come to the select committee and I was unable to ask him the questions that I wanted to. Given that animal live exports have accounted for 0.2 percent of our primary sector revenues since 2015 and the industry is now worth over $50 billion, is the Minister concerned that returning to live exports could potentially damage our free-trade agreements or any ability to negotiate our future free-trade agreements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EWe hear a lot about this gold standard that will be adhered to, and I would like to know what the Minister sees is the gold standard, because there is no definition. We don\u2019t have a definition here of what a gold standard is. So I\u2019m interested to know what his view or vision for a gold standard is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EI would also like to know if the Minister has put his mind to the cost to our exporters of moving to this gold standard. In regard to the ships, is the expectation that we will have ships that will be brand spanking new, purpose-built to meet these gold standards or does the Minister see that boats that are simply, I guess, renovated will do? There\u2019s been no real information out there as to what that gold standard would look like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EGiven some of the horrific photos and evidence that was shown to the select committee when we were looking at banning the live-export-by-ship legislation, how can the Minister 100 percent guarantee that the images that we saw would not be repeated should he undertake to have whatever this gold standard might look like?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226cac9fcd-1934-4007-b10a-4b9d301a0af1\u0022 data-id=\u00228f486c0664f048949ad96d21bd200eb0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226cac9fcd-1934-4007-b10a-4b9d301a0af1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228f486c0664f048949ad96d21bd200eb0\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW HOGGARD (Associate Minister of Agriculture (Animal Welfare, Skills)):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019ll just respond to a couple of those questions. Firstly, on livestock exports: in terms of the updated standards, at the moment the advice is still coming. The work is still being done within the Ministry for Primary Industries (MPI) team on developing what that may be, before going to Cabinet and then consultation. The member asked whether this trade is worth it. It was worth $305\u00A0million\u2014so it\u2019s $305\u00A0million, or nothing. That\u2019s an extra $305 million that New Zealand needs right now, so I think that is important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226cac9fcd-1934-4007-b10a-4b9d301a0af1\u0022\u003EIn terms of reputation, if you can do something better than everyone else in the world, that is lifting the reputation. That is showing the rest of the world how we can do this job much better. Also, there is a reputational risk in terms of \u201CWe\u2019ll just sell you our milk and nothing else.\u201D We have a role in terms of getting these free-trade agreements, often, in terms of helping these other countries develop their dairy industries. So I think there is a win-win there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226cac9fcd-1934-4007-b10a-4b9d301a0af1\u0022\u003EIn terms of the photos, now, I didn\u2019t see what you saw in front of the select committee, but I have seen lots of photos recently, and I\u2019d point out that\u2014man, my eyesight is not the best at the moment, so there\u2019s not much chance I can see that photo from here. But do they have a New Zealand National Animal Identification and Tracing (NAIT) tag in their ears? That would be my question, if you know what one looks like, because there\u2019s good chance that most of the photos I\u2019ve seen do not have New Zealand tags in their ear and they are from offshore. They are not from the standards we\u2019re used to doing in New Zealand, and we will be updating those standards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226cac9fcd-1934-4007-b10a-4b9d301a0af1\u0022\u003EIn terms of the ships the member asked about, we will be putting standards in place. Now, whether or not people build a new ship to meet those standards or renovate a ship to meet those standards, they will need to meet the standards. The standards are the standards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226cac9fcd-1934-4007-b10a-4b9d301a0af1\u0022\u003EIn terms of biosecurity, the focus will be on delivering outcomes. I\u2019ve seen a lot of what the teams are doing. There is a lot of preparation going on right now for making sure we are ready for disease outbreaks if they ever do come, and, hopefully, they never do. The focus for the team is on being ready and achieving those outcomes, so I have full faith in the MPI team in terms of delivering that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226cac9fcd-1934-4007-b10a-4b9d301a0af1\u0022\u003EThere was a question around what we\u2019re doing in terms of biodiversity. So this is putting my other hat on, as the Associate Minister for the Environment\u2014if I\u2019m allowed to do that\u2014we are looking at biodiversity credits. I\u2019m seeking advice on that, and it will be a way to help farmers improve their biodiversity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022 data-id=\u0022ecac0abf0b85457596c37d4459fb7d5f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ecac0abf0b85457596c37d4459fb7d5f\u0022\u003ESCOTT WILLIS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair, and thank you, Minister, for speaking on the live exports. I have a few more questions in that regard, please. Those images that we showed at the select committee to Minister McClay were from a vessel called the Al Kuwait, which has operated under a different name from our shores before we banned live animal exports here. Those are images of animals in Cape Town existing in the miserable conditions of their own filth. Will you rule out that ship, the Al Kuwait, which is a purpose-built live export ship, a relatively new ship, I think, built in 2016, and yet it still has these miserable conditions on it? The South African SPCA investigators who went on to the ship described the unimaginable stench, the gruesome conditions of animals forced to live in their own faeces and exposed to dangerous levels of ammonia, rough seas, extreme heat stress, contaminated drinking water, and exhaustion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EFurther, in light of recent decisions in both Australia, to phase out live sheep exports, and the United Kingdom, which has just passed legislation to prohibit live animal exports, have you taken into account the opinions of those other nations who have also recognised the inherent cruelty of live animal exports? I want to draw your attention to a couple of quotes from the British Parliament, from conservative members there: \u201CThe long journeys caused intolerable stress, injury and exhaustion, and the case studies we heard were harrowing. Once animals leave [these] shores, there is no control over how they are kept or slaughtered. Thus, it is important that we stop this practice once and for all.\u201D Another Minister said, \u201CThe figures I have seen on live exports are absolutely horrendous. I cannot believe that people actually thought it was okay to treat animals like this\u2014subjected to journeys of\u201D\u2014wait for it\u2014\u201Cover 2,000 miles, lasting 70 hours.\u201D The British parliamentarians were distressed at journeys of 60\u00A0hours from the UK to Spain, or journeys of 18 hours from the UK to Europe, and here we are talking about journeys of weeks at sea, the inhumane, crowded, exhaustion, dehydration, long, stressful journeys.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a6489ff5-e18c-4c19-958d-3cec5c52c0cc\u0022\u003EIs it not correct, Minister, that we have reached a time in our history where it\u2019s no\u00A0longer acceptable for us to treat animals so poorly? It is fundamentally miserable for\u00A0those animals. Reputation aside, income aside, it\u2019s about the cruelty to those animals, and the\u00A0world is moving away from live animal exports. Will you consider changing this\u00A0Government\u2019s position and committing to keeping the ban on live animal exports in\u00A0place?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u002292550656de7d41aa9f9ae6571ed79f07\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002292550656de7d41aa9f9ae6571ed79f07\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chair, thank you so much. Colleagues, there\u2019s been a range of questions and I\u2019ll try and address them as quickly as I can. Of course, many will know this is a time-limited debate and therefore the time available to Ministers is much less than we want. I\u2019m going to try and answer them very, very quickly and my apologies if I don\u2019t get to them, we can always come back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EOf course, we\u2019ve got my two colleagues, Minister Hoggard and Minister Patterson here, who have specific responsibilities\u2014Minister Patterson, in this case, for wool, and he\u2019ll be able to address that. We\u2019ve heard from Minister Hoggard on biosecurity and of course on animal welfare.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EI can give an assurance that there will be no cuts to the front line of service for the equivalent of the vets or the animal welfare experts who are there in the field, or biosecurity experts. But that doesn\u2019t mean there are not going to be changes across the board. The reason for that is over the last six years we saw the workforce grow by 50\u00A0percent in the Ministry for Primary Industries (MPI), but the output didn\u2019t increase by 50 percent. And ultimately what we\u2019re saying is we want to focus on the front line and do what most farmers in New Zealand are doing\u2014and in fact every New Zealander that I can think of is doing\u2014is having to do more with the same amount or with less.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EBut I can give the assurance, again, as I did in the House, as I will today, that those front-line services, not back office, but those front-line services\u2014in as far as the vets who do a very important job, our biosecurity officers, and also animal welfare officers\u2014remain the same.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EOf course, colleagues, you will have seen the announcement there just at the end of last week from MPI, now that they\u2019ve gone through their full consultation process. And, indeed, they have moved resource from what they had proposed into biosecurity and to another area of engagement with the rural community and catchment groups because they had feedback that more was needed to ensure that we could deliver in those areas. And they\u2019ve taken that feedback on board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EIn as far as M\u0101ori business and agriculture is concerned, ultimately where the changes to the amount of resource that\u2019s being spent, decisions made will come forward in the Budget. But again, I can give an assurance that in all areas we have not closed down units. What we\u2019ve done is we\u2019ve had to accommodate changes done so in such a way as the main delivery can continue and the work that\u2019s important will continue. And then as the Government gets to rebuild the economy, we can make bids in the future after engaging with members of the House and with the sector about where additional resource would be needed to be able to do more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EIn some of the questions here around GMOs and so on, as Minister, I\u2019m not responsible for that; that\u2019s Minister of science and research, however. But what I can say when it comes to biotechnology and so on, is that actually there will be opportunities for us to meet environmental and climate change obligations through adopting and using new technologies. But in so doing, we must make sure that they don\u2019t harm New Zealand, that they\u2019re good for New Zealand, and that they are accepted and being used in other parts of the world. So the Minister, I know, is doing a body of work there to meet the commitment we made before the election. But we\u2019re doing so mindfully in as far as we want to give the rural committee the tools that they need that are available to them through new technologies to meet those demands\u2014environment, climate change. Take wilding pines as an example; there will be an opportunity for us to make the changes so that wilding pines no longer are a threat to native bush in New Zealand. We should be open to that, but we need to get those rules right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EForestry was raised by one of our colleagues. You\u2019re right that the forecast of revenue, exports in forestry is down. That\u2019s the result of a commodity price being down and the logs are worth less at the moment than they were previously. But, ultimately you are right: there are opportunities for us to look into, lean into wood processing. What you won\u2019t see this Government doing is what was tried in the past. They\u2019ve taken large amounts of taxpayer money, and saying to the wood-processing sector, \u201CWe give this to you to just do what you\u2019re doing.\u201D Actually, what we want to do is work with them to be innovative, to find where the obstacles to them finding and using new products are, and how we can use more wood in New Zealand and add value to it. It\u2019s good for climate change, it\u2019s good for the economy, it creates jobs, it\u2019ll be very, very good for exports. But we\u2019re starting to work with the sector about how we would do that. In all cases, it\u2019s actually not often always about just the money that you spend; it\u2019s about the restrictions that are placed upon them and how we can get more for that. But we\u2019re taking that very seriously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EIn as far as slash is concerned, we\u2019re breaking the work up into a couple of areas. One, the slash is there at the moment; how we get that cleaned up as quickly as we can in partnership with people in the region as opposed to us in Wellington deciding how it should be done. Secondly, the woodland biomass that\u2019s on the hills, what we can do to make sure it doesn\u2019t come down, to mitigate that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EThe third part of this must be the rules in the future so that the likelihood of this happening again lessens. But the member asked about resource. The Government has committed $85 million. We\u2019re going to make sure as much of that is used as well as it\u00A0can\u00A0to get as much wood up as we can. We owe that to the taxpayer and certainly the\u00A0ratepayer in those areas. I\u2019ll stop here to reserve some time for my other colleagues and other questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022 data-id=\u0022c88218e1df894e23b593c3b0335e93ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c88218e1df894e23b593c3b0335e93ae\u0022\u003ECUSHLA TANGAERE-MANUEL (Labour\u2014Ikaroa-R\u0101whiti):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Mr Chair, and I appreciate the answers to date. I\u2019d like to ask some questions now about cyclone recovery. It was really good in the report to see the acknowledgment of the value that marae and community halls had during the cyclone. That said, a lot of marae are now still affected by the cyclone and do not fit any current Government funding criteria, so it\u2019s good to see and hear the acknowledgment that they need to be brought into scope. Will the Minister commit to meeting with all the marae still affected, and their hap\u016B directly, to discuss their needs and their recovery requirements, given the value that they have not only in cyclone recovery but as a community hub and as just serving across their whole communities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ad7ccb58-34d9-4340-9b9d-6523bc4dda32\u0022\u003EThe second thing is about infrastructure. Obviously it\u2019s great news; everyone wants to hear about their road getting fixed, but in smaller communities such as the East Coast, the supporting infrastructure that is required to help people get into those communities and fix those roads is very fragile, if non-existent. So what commitment will the Minister make to investing in infrastructure that can support these roads of significance being built?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u00229173d418c8314aadacc7071f8a858279\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229173d418c8314aadacc7071f8a858279\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u2019CONNOR (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Look, thank you very much, Mr Chair, and I\u2019ll just take a couple of short questions. Regarding the live exports, the Ministers have spoken about gold standards and spoken about ensuring that high standards of animal welfare in market will be met. So the question is: how will they be met and how will New Zealand oversee those high standards in market when the animals arrive?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EAnd the second is: if the current area allowance for a 300 kilogram animal over three weeks on a boat is 1.2 square metres, and for a 500 kilogram animal it is 2 square metres for three weeks, does the Minister consider that adequate and will the gold standard be an increase in the area on a boat, if he\u2019s indeed to reinstate live exports?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u0022df8f474c05d34dba98c314bcdac57b07\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df8f474c05d34dba98c314bcdac57b07\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I want to move now to the issue of wallabies. Wallabies in South Canterbury are a massive issue, and it\u2019s something I keep harping on about in our select committee. The eradication of wallabies and the destruction that we\u2019re seeing from wallabies with our crops and the devastating impact that that would have if they were to cross into mid-Canterbury. We\u2019ve heard from the Ministry for Primary Industries that they are just sort of focusing their work on pest control for wallabies around those outer areas, but it is really concerning that that\u2019s pretty much all that they are focusing on at the moment because, as we know, hunters can\u2019t quite keep up with the rate of wallabies that we are seeing being born and continuing to procreate. So I would like to know what the Minister\u2019s plans are for ensuring that the wallaby population doesn\u2019t get out of control and what mitigations they are taking to ensure that they do not cross into that mid-Canterbury area, because, as I\u2019ve said, that would be completely devastating for the arable farmers in that area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226cac9fcd-1934-4007-b10a-4b9d301a0af1\u0022 data-id=\u0022be34b6ab93bb4a48b22df5e4063ab1ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226cac9fcd-1934-4007-b10a-4b9d301a0af1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be34b6ab93bb4a48b22df5e4063ab1ed\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW HOGGARD (Associate Minister of Agriculture (Animal Welfare, Skills)):\u003C/span\u003E OK, so just firstly on wallabies\u2014yes, I had a briefing not so long ago. The programme, at this stage, is focused on the boundaries. The wallabies have expanded past the boundaries where we\u2019d want them. We aim to get them back over those boundaries, and once that\u2019s achieved, then it\u2019s a case of squeezing them down and eradicating them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226cac9fcd-1934-4007-b10a-4b9d301a0af1\u0022\u003EI was intending to be down in the South Island and helping out with some wallaby eradication. Unfortunately, I had to have eye surgery instead, and I probably wouldn\u2019t hit a wallaby in the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225efe619ea0474747b70668127e12fe51\u0022\u003EHon Mark Patterson\u003C/span\u003E: You might have a better chance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226cac9fcd-1934-4007-b10a-4b9d301a0af1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f153a3cdebdd49f79820eeb472a4e9f4\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW HOGGARD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I might have a better chance now, yeah. Going back to the livestock exports and the mention of the Al Kuwait boat, what I would say is that when it was in Cape Town, it was carrying 19,000 head of stock; when it last left New Zealand, it was carrying 11,000. So that is part of the problem\u2014you know, our standards were for much fewer animals on the boat. Those were our old standards, and we will, obviously, be updating those standards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226cac9fcd-1934-4007-b10a-4b9d301a0af1\u0022\u003EIn terms of specifics, the member asked around what those might be. That is all still being worked on. When it is out, then we\u2019ll be able to discuss those updated standards and whether or not everyone believes they are good enough, and make suggestions around whether further improvement is needed. But at the moment, I can\u2019t go into the details because they\u2019re still being developed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u00224727d41fd3484e9b98281fd1364c913e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224727d41fd3484e9b98281fd1364c913e\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. My question is to the Associate Minister of Agriculture. Really, I\u2019m interested in Jobs for Nature. The Minister has said that the tools that farmers need are things that the Government can provide. My enduring experience living on a farm and working in the community was that farmers want to do the right thing. Jobs for Nature has provided rural jobs, has helped build that community, has helped families grow in our rural communities, and it\u2019s such a successful programme. Will the Minister commit to continuing and expanding the Jobs for Nature programme? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022 data-id=\u0022bbd3f0b4cbad4c9598debb71753848ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ef5a38c-0ef7-4d68-8621-dcbb47077e6e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bbd3f0b4cbad4c9598debb71753848ca\u0022\u003EHANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Hauraki-Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m still seeking an answer from both Ministers, or any Minister, on the Wai 262 claim and whether or not they have been working alongside Minister for M\u0101ori Development, Tama Potaka, in making sure that this claim gets picked up with this Government. Are there any time lines? At any point are they going to meet with the claimants of the Wai 262 claim?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022 data-id=\u00225ecf9b632fba45919fe2daa4ade56030\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ecf9b632fba45919fe2daa4ade56030\u0022\u003EHon MARK PATTERSON (Associate Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I would just like to take the chance to take a call on my wool industry delegation. It was a question that came up earlier from the member for Tair\u0101whiti. So good news: the North Island auction price lifted 17 percent last week for second-shear wool, so the surge is on. The second New Zealand wool boom is under way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003ESo, in all fairness, we are in the 2022/23 Estimates, so I will acknowledge the investment that went in by the previous Government to look at various options. I would describe it a little bit like throwing a dish of wheat at the side of a bus, but some did hit, and it\u2019s acknowledged that some of the initiatives are starting to show some progress. So, essentially, what I have done within my delegation, to answer the member\u2019s question\u2014the first thing is to get out and about and see what the industry is up to, what\u2019s happening, where the opportunities are, and how we can help. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EIt turns out that there is a lot of innovation going on out there. There are a lot of manufacturing businesses that have got some new products, new end uses for wool that potentially could sustain a higher farm-gate wool price, which is the absolute key. It\u2019s not so much that we need to grow demand and that is the only way to lift the price of wool, but it has to be in products for a higher farm-gate wool price, because this is not so much about wool, as you might think; this is about the profitability of hill country sheep and beef farming. We\u2019ve got the land use challenge from forestry, and they\u2019re doing it really tough out there at the moment, as I\u2019m sure the member knows, so it is imperative that we get wool from being now a cost on a business into being a major profit centre. With a swing back to natural fibres, we absolutely have that opportunity in front of us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003ESo, beyond that, I\u2019ve attended and led a delegation to the International Wool Textile Organisation conference in Adelaide, where there were some 25 New Zealand delegates. We had a specific New Zealand afternoon for strong wool. It\u2019s an organisation dominated by fine\u00A0wool, but this was specifically for New Zealand strong wool, and we absolutely knocked that\u00A0out of the park. The Autexes, the Bremworths, the Wool Impacts\u2014we showed a level of\u00A0positivity with the fact that we had a plan, the fact that we had the motivation, and some\u00A0collective will to turn what was a pretty sombre conference around.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EWe did meet with the Chinese delegation, who take 30 percent of our wool through the Nanjing wool market. We had respectful and constructive conversations with them, looking to address some of their concerns around some of the wool quality. Also, we were expressing our concerns about the lack of a sustainable price for the fibre.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EI have also brought together an industry leadership group alongside Wool Impact, which was a group that was formed under the previous Minister. The group that hadn\u2019t really had much consultation within this was farmers and the farming leadership, and we have to start looking at how we can transition Wool Impact and the good work that they have done, in fairness, into something that can be sustained by the wider industry itself\u2014by farmers, by the wool manufacturing companies, and wool-interested companies. What does that look like? So I\u2019ve tasked this group with coming up with that outcome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve also tasked them with looking at different pathways to market, because the auction system has clearly failed us. I\u2019ve tasked them with coming up with an industry goal\u2014a credible industry goal that we can put towards doubling exports, which is a Government goal. But wool can do much more than that, so how can we contribute to that overall Government goal? So that\u2019s a summary of some of the actions we\u2019re taking. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u002205e0d696dde142eeb377132526979e7f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205e0d696dde142eeb377132526979e7f\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I appreciate the opportunity to take a call in the annual review debate. Just at the beginning of my contribution, I do want to note for the committee the changes in the Standing Orders that occurred last year that have led to a change at annual review so that as well as looking back over that previous financial year, we can also look to strategic intent, and it\u2019s that strategic intent that I wish to put my comments on the record on this evening. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EI want to specifically ask some questions around live exports, and I understand my colleagues have already asked some questions tonight. But this is a critical issue for New\u00A0Zealand, from both a \u201CNew Zealand Inc.\u201D point of view but also an animal welfare point of view. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThe concerns that the Labour Party have about the reintroduction of live exports are numerous. First of all, there are the animal welfare issues, and we\u2019ve all seen images of ships where we have cattle up to their knees in their own muck, in cramped conditions, reports and photographs from vets who have been on these boats showing absolutely appalling conditions for cattle. Particularly for us in New Zealand, when we are exporting animals across to the other side of the world, they have to pass across the equator, and it is in incredibly hot conditions. No matter what occurs with the ships, we are sending cattle through conditions that are detrimental to their health and wellbeing. We\u2019ve seen recently Australia having ships returned because of the ongoing conflict in Gaza and Israel, and ships not being able to get through to port. They\u2019re having to return to Australia, and having cattle then observed with a significant number of health issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EThe other point I want to make around that is the risk that that presents to New Zealand\u2019s international reputation. We are seeing global trends change in terms of the type of products people wish to purchase and consume. People are making choices around environmental decisions. People are also making choices around animal welfare positions. I note in my own electorate of Nelson a company called SnapIT doing amazing work, first of all on cameras on boats but also other technology that can help track an animal from the beginning of its life through to the moment it arrives on the plate. Consumers actually want to have\u00A0access to that information, and there is a genuine concern that people will stop purchasing New Zealand products if we\u2019re not upholding the highest environmental and animal welfare standards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EFurthermore, there\u2019s the issue of intellectual property (IP). Why would we give away our IP in terms of our best breeding stock to countries on the other side of the world? Why would we do that when we have such a proud industry here in New Zealand that we should be supporting?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EBut what I did just want to come to is that I have asked the Minister of Agriculture, through written parliamentary questions, about custom-built boats. The previous National Party spokesperson Nicola Grigg went on television last year and said that if live exports were reinstated, there would be custom-built boats. Now, she never said who would pay for them\u2014they\u2019re billion-dollar boats\u2014or who would build them. The concern I have is that the questions I\u2019ve put to the Minister through written parliamentary questions state that he is still seeking advice on that specific issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003ENow, the National Party actually made a commitment to having custom-built boats. Having said that, we\u2019ve also seen that with some of these custom-built boats, we\u2019ve had examples of where the stench from the boat can be experienced throughout the whole area, and, actually\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b404aacc0c04494807b0b1aa178fbcf\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I\u2019d go on a billion-dollar boat. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bce48aefe9c46d7bdd7197215701615\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019d go on a billion-dollar boat. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ee6b93c62a94f2d875cfeb18d14b7c4\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, maybe we should put the National Party on some custom-built boats\u2014that sounds like a great idea. So my question, first of all, is: is the Minister going to backtrack from that position of the National Party around custom-built boats, and if he does proceed with custom-built boats\u2014as I\u2019ve asked him, but have not had a response\u2014who is going to build them and who is going to pay for them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00227791d9ea475742b78a330161ba23f6ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227791d9ea475742b78a330161ba23f6ea\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Just before we continue, I\u2019ll just give folks an update on our times, because the clock is literally ticking. We\u2019ve got five minutes and five seconds with the National Party; 25 minutes and 30 seconds for the Labour Party; four minutes and 54 seconds for the Green Party\u2014this is at 5.31 p.m.\u2014eight minutes and 53 seconds for the ACT Party; three minutes and 39 seconds for the New Zealand First Party; and 10 minutes and nine seconds for Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori. So just a bit of an update there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226cac9fcd-1934-4007-b10a-4b9d301a0af1\u0022 data-id=\u00221b476ca1b13f45f896efb62d8793a93a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226cac9fcd-1934-4007-b10a-4b9d301a0af1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b476ca1b13f45f896efb62d8793a93a\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW HOGGARD (Associate Minister of Agriculture (Animal Welfare, Skills)):\u003C/span\u003E Just on the two points that were raised there in terms of the custom-built boats issue. As you may have realised, this is a coalition Government. We signed a coalition agreement. I am not responsible for commitments made by parties before the coalition agreement was made. As I said previously, it\u2019ll be a standard. Now, maybe it\u2019ll take a custom-built boat to achieve the standard or maybe it won\u2019t; the standards are what matter. That\u2019s how you drive changes on farm or anywhere in the agricultural industry\u2014you set a standard and people have to meet it. In terms of your question around intellectual property (IP)\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b93ac02dfac54f919f6046598aeee574\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u2019Connor\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s called a regulation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226cac9fcd-1934-4007-b10a-4b9d301a0af1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251348867d93f4777b530b150fccb0b0d\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW HOGGARD\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, whatever. In terms of IP, you asked the question: \u201CWell, are you also then saying that we should stop sending frozen semen offshore, because is that not also giving away our IP?\u201D Now, it\u2019s important to realise that most of these countries we would be trading animals with will not be operating the same farm system we operate here in New Zealand. We operate a pasture-grazing system here in New Zealand\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b37c4df01b924de19ec244a875b8128f\u0022\u003ERachel Boyack\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly\u2014terrible animal welfare standards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226cac9fcd-1934-4007-b10a-4b9d301a0af1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ffebfe802aa49718eea738f70ed5f3e\u0022\u003EHon ANDREW HOGGARD\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014if you wanted to listen, you might learn a bit about farming\u2014and so these animals are bred for that purpose. We\u2019re not giving away any IP, because what we\u2019re sending to them are animals from a very low-disease country, OK? So that\u2019s the benefit they are seeing. They are seeing good traceability and good welfare from a trading partner they can trust, so I don\u2019t believe there\u2019s any IP given away. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226cac9fcd-1934-4007-b10a-4b9d301a0af1\u0022\u003EYou know, at the end of the day, farming is pretty simple: you feed the cows; they produce milk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u002251ebce8777cc456d99dd5fa3876bb7ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002251ebce8777cc456d99dd5fa3876bb7ee\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: OK, thank you for that, and just to highlight as well that this debate\u2014despite the times that I\u2019ve told you\u2014will end at 5.51 p.m. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022 data-id=\u00225924d08b459b40b2b8cd2b0f5a88f08f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225924d08b459b40b2b8cd2b0f5a88f08f\u0022\u003ESTEVE ABEL (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I just want to speak to Minister Patterson and say that you may find on your select committee that you have multi-party support for the wool industry, and I just published an article in Canterbury Farming saying that we\u2019d be fools to not back wool. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EWith the scourge of plastic polluting our oceans from fibres and products and building products and carpets\u2014even in our own schools\u2014we certainly need to back the wool industry. One of the messages that we got in the current briefing before us at the select committee was from some of those quite inspiring operators who are doing incredible things with wool domestically. One of the strong messages was that we need to do domestic manufacturing for the industry to be viable, rather than sending our high-quality product as a commodity into the global market, where somebody else makes the money out of turning it into a suit. Are you\u2014and this is my question\u2014as a Government going to put actual dollars towards things like manufacturing plant in the wool sector so that we can build that manufacturing sector?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e29c400e-467a-4398-818d-270ef48b80cf\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve got a quick follow-up question for the other Minister, if that\u2019s OK? Mr Hoggard, further to your point about listening to farmers about farming, will you take into account the multitude of animal welfare experts who tell us time and again, across the board, that there is no way to do live animal exports other than in a way that is cruel? I\u2019ll quote but one of them, the New Zealand SPCA chief science officer, Arnja Dale, who says, \u201CIt is very clear from the research that there is absolutely no way to achieve good animal welfare on long and complicated journeys.\u201D Will you take all of that into account and take that as the primary leader of experts in terms of your determination on proceeding with live animal exports? Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u00224af41cc6da104c4da8ef79d304b40841\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224af41cc6da104c4da8ef79d304b40841\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, and I just remind members to not bring the Chair into the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022 data-id=\u002218c8fa5ecfe444b48c9a9afd4b87edda\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218c8fa5ecfe444b48c9a9afd4b87edda\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK (Labour\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair\u2014pleasure to have another opportunity to take a call. My question is around the time frames that the Minister has indicated in order to develop the supposed gold standard that live animal exports will need to follow. My question really is why would industry seek to invest, given that from my latest written parliamentary question, the Minister has indicated that live animal exports are not likely to be reintroduced through legislation until 2025? Given that there\u2019s a high likelihood of a change of Government in 2026\u2014certainly that\u2019s what we\u2019re hearing\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022631d9edd-77fb-4f22-8b5d-a7c81d997865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edaedef748404dd9af29e8de3fde8b0e\u0022\u003EReuben Davidson\u003C/span\u003E: Maybe sooner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f79292748a5423986360bc27af40416\u0022\u003ERACHEL BOYACK\u003C/span\u003E: It could be sooner, actually. I mean, it could be sooner\u2014I think that\u2019s a very fair point, Mr Davidson; it could well be sooner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8550e1a-ed25-44a2-b0e2-b0a8d52a7a80\u0022\u003EWhy would industry be seeking to invest in such an activity, given that the Government is going to take two years since the election to actually reintroduce the legislation, never mind actually reintroducing the practice? Surely the industry would be looking for some certainty from the Minister. I mean, I guess, is it not an element of wasteful spending\u2014isn\u2019t that what we\u2019d call it? We\u2019d call it wasteful spending, I guess, getting officials to do work on this, knowing that, actually, once we see a change of Government, which we do expect to have, I think, sooner rather than later, it would be a complete waste of money for industry to be investing. So that\u2019s my further question to the Minister, thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u00229690edc124374dc3b2ff7872439bd2c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229690edc124374dc3b2ff7872439bd2c2\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chair, thank you. I\u2019m going to go very quickly because there were points raised earlier I\u2019d like to address, in case colleagues have any follow-up questions they\u2019d like. Around cyclone recovery, this is something we\u2019re taking very, very seriously. A lot of the things the member raised fall outside of my competence as agriculture Minister. But, just to say, as far as agriculture and horticulture and forestry are concerned, we\u2019re looking to work with the sector and many others, particularly experts that actually know what\u2019s going on, on the ground; the best way to sort these things out; the harm that\u2019s been done and how to stop it in the future. I would be very open to working with anybody that has input into that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EAs far as the rural infrastructure is concerned, particularly roading, Minister Patterson has a responsibility for rural infrastructure in that area\u2014although, with that in mind, he\u2019s not the Minister who gets to make the decisions as to where funding is concerned. But the rural sector now has a dedicated advocate for rural infrastructure, roading, and so on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EJobs for Nature, also, as admirable as it is\u2014I\u2019d like to speak at great length on it\u2014it\u2019s not an agricultural responsibility. So, unfortunately, that would have to be addressed to the environment Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EOn Wai 262, that, equally\u2014the responsibility of that sits with another Minister, around intellectual property. But I would say we take our responsibilities and obligations seriously. In the last term of Parliament, there was a Plants Variety Rights Act that was put in place to update that, to make it modern and available to the agricultural sector. Within that, there was support for Wai 262 and recognition of indigenous plants and processes. So there was a say in that, and that\u2019s something that\u2019s set aside that the agency responsible has to take account of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003ETo the member for Nelson, 26 votes doesn\u2019t suggest to me that the Government\u2019s going to change anytime soon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u0022795c207b70624debacfaf771076b636e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022795c207b70624debacfaf771076b636e\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chair. I\u2019ve got a couple of questions: one for the Minister of Agriculture and then some for the Minister for Rural Communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003ESo my question to the Minister of Agriculture is this: in the Ministry for Primary Industries\u2019 (MPI) annual report, they said that industry transformation plans are a mechanism for building a more integrated and shared understanding of how to make the most of New Zealand\u2019s food and fibre strength, maximise new opportunities, and respond to challenges on the horizon. Given that all work on these has now ceased, what is the Minister\u2019s plan for taking the industry forward, if not with the support and understanding of the sector?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EMy questions for the Minister for Rural Communities\u2014the first one being this: as he will be aware, since 2019, 32 rural community hubs have been established, with seven new ones in the last financial year; can we expect support and seed funding from MPI for these hubs to continue in Budget 2024?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003EMy other question for the Minister is that when the Minister came before our select committee for annual review, we asked him whether he was actively advocating to maintain and fix State Highway 35 and keep the East Coast connected to the world. The Minister acknowledged that we needed to have roading infrastructure that was fit for purpose and that food security needs to be a factor when deciding how to divide infrastructure spending. The Minister said he had spoken to the Minister of Transport about this matter, and I\u2019m wondering if the Minister could please give us an update following the conversation that he\u2019s had with the Minister of Transport about that matter. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022 data-id=\u002276d46cc8329341258b948772c6ab99bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002276d46cc8329341258b948772c6ab99bf\u0022\u003EHon MARK PATTERSON (Associate Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E Right. I\u2019ll take a couple of those questions. Firstly, the wool one: I thank Mr Abel for his support, and, yes, we are going to be bringing wool back into Government buildings. That piece of work is happening now, in terms of shaping up that policy. You do raise a really good point. We have got a cluster of businesses that are reaching a point where they\u2019re, kind of, really ready to go, but it\u2019s access to capital in this country. We can start them up, but how do we scale them? And one of the things\u2014and it\u2019s not necessarily Government funding that\u2019s needed for this. I mean, we can use our influence within this place to help bring people together and maybe package up something for commercial\u2014and I note your colleague; in fact, one of the people I\u2019m going to be ringing is your colleague, or former colleague, James Shaw, who\u2019s now looking at green investments. So there could not be a more green investment than into the wool industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003ESo around that new wool scourer at Awatoto, there\u2019s a $50 million investment there. My vision is for a big wool cluster of businesses developing out of that area; whether that happens\u2014but you can see that. In terms of some of the work around rural hubs, I think a lot\u00A0of that came out of the COVID money, and then, I think, in cyclone recovery. I think it\u2019s been really successful and\u2014no, it came out of the COVID money, but in the cyclone, it was shown to be really successful, and other adverse events, because there was somewhere to go, there was somewhere that had connectivity, there was somewhere that had a commercial kitchen. That\u2019s probably something that sits probably more in the regional economic development portfolio. I know it\u2019s something that\u2019s being looked at there, but I do want you to know that I recognise the good work that has gone on there, both investing in marae and community halls.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003EAnd, in terms of the roading thing, that is a bigger piece of work, and the Minister outlined some regional roading priorities earlier, but I do agree that we need to put GDP and access to markets as a big weighting in terms of how we allocate our access to roading infrastructure. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022 data-id=\u0022b6813370ec40478698ecbcb31adf9be7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002226b88bf1-f634-40e7-8019-e75cc483ace7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b6813370ec40478698ecbcb31adf9be7\u0022\u003EHon JO LUXTON (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to follow up on that answer from the Minister. My question was: can he give us an update, following the conversation that he had with the Minister about that particular road?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022 data-id=\u0022879ea937d15f4435a81aa3c2a8cef27b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bf71a65e-c9f0-4856-902f-1a15c4274e94\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022879ea937d15f4435a81aa3c2a8cef27b\u0022\u003EHon MARK PATTERSON (Associate Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E Well, that\u2019s an ongoing discussion. I can\u2019t give you an answer, but I recognise and he recognises that important arterial route for the East Coast.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd7c2d71bab94cbf92f7de2e48e40202\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd7c2d71bab94cbf92f7de2e48e40202\u0022\u003EHon TODD McCLAY (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chair, thank you so much. On the last question around industry transformation plans (ITPs), well, what the Government\u2019s doing to transform the industry is working with them. You see, over the last six years, there were more than 20 pieces of legislation or regulation thrust upon rural New Zealand that didn\u2019t achieve what the owners of those rules and regulations, the last Labour Government, said they would. They had a cost and complication. It didn\u2019t drive the outcome\u2014didn\u2019t drive the outcomes in the environment, certainly not in climate change, certainly not anywhere. And all it did was add cost to what is the most productive food-producing sector in the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003ESo we don\u2019t need big studies to sit and work with the agriculture sector and decide how to transform them. They actually know how to do this; they\u2019re innovative; they\u2019re hard-working; they\u2019re men and women of New Zealand that grow the economy and who are actually going to help New Zealand pay back the large amounts of debt that the last Labour Government ran up for them. And we\u2019re going to do that by working with them and focusing on the outcome, not just the process. We don\u2019t want more rules; we want fewer rules. We want better rules that achieve what they need to, that allow the rural committee to get on and do what we want them to, which is work hard, farm hard, take those risks in their businesses, care deeply about the environment, meet their obligations, help New Zealand meet its climate change obligations, and, in so doing, grow the economy, creating jobs and a future for any New Zealander who wants it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EAnd so when we get asked about, you know, \u201CWhat are you doing around industry transformation?\u201D, this industry doesn\u2019t need transforming; it just needs backing. And you have a coalition Government that trusts farmers, backs them, and will work with them to drive the outcomes that we need. And, with that in mind, I\u2019m very, very proud of the work that my two colleagues and I have been able to start\u2014and the coalition Government\u2014in making changes early on that actually will drive better outcomes for water quality and that will back farmers to be able to do the things that they want to, which is farm well and care about their land. Because to any member on my left from the Labour Party that says they know best about the land, they\u2019re not the owners of it or the ones that are working on it every day, they\u2019re not the M\u0101ori organisations that actually care about the land, they\u2019re not the men or women that get out of bed every day that will make sure that their land does what it needs to because that\u2019s where they get their livelihood from.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c0f78f60-c2fd-46f4-8138-72f39692fc20\u0022\u003EAnd so we campaigned on getting Wellington out of farming, and Mark Patterson, Andrew Hoggard, and I, on behalf of rural New Zealand as the Ministers responsible for that, will make sure that we not only get Wellington out of farming but that farming is strong and the environment continues to improve and it continues to get better. And that job is something that will have to be enduring; it will have to continue; it\u2019ll have to every day, because these two colleagues of mine and I care as much about the environment as we do agriculture. And that\u2019s something that I hear as we\u2019re out in rural New Zealand\u2014farmers talking about the environment, what they need to achieve\u2014more than they talk about production. So what we need to do is get the rules right, get the framework right, build some trust, get the decision making from the small buildings of Wellington without windows out of the way, back rural New Zealand, and allow them to take responsibility for themselves. You\u2019ve got a Government to partner and do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022d5ea67144ad940a1bdab0a962ddbfcd2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d5ea67144ad940a1bdab0a962ddbfcd2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the report of the Finance and Expenditure Committee on the annual financial statements of the Government for the 2022/23 financial year be noted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EReport noted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022df8c451215bf48b8abe989c24188f9a1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df8c451215bf48b8abe989c24188f9a1\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question now is, That the reports of committees on annual reviews be noted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EReports of committees on annual reviews noted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3504cdb120e4614ac59bcd4aabe7dc2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3504cdb120e4614ac59bcd4aabe7dc2\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: The question now is, That clauses 1 to 8 and Schedules 1 to 6 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 8 and Schedules 1 to 6 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EBill to be reported without amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022 data-id=\u0022f2764f668b044629956de5141d7ee36c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f2764f668b044629956de5141d7ee36c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Teanau Tuiono)\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Speaker, the committee has considered the Appropriation (2022/23 Confirmation and Validation) Bill and reports it without amendment. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d42e8cf-544e-415d-892b-f4ef8014d80f\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00224f81386f47f54e3b901d2d2fca39d10a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f81386f47f54e3b901d2d2fca39d10a\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is set down for third reading immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225af73dd27cb24266ba2e252baf1a064d\u0022\u003EAppropriation (2022/23 Confirmation and Validation) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002224f19629cc7f41e49d7397f27cd9cf60\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022 data-id=\u00223a384723bbcb4f4ebae79685585d6788\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253f86481-33c1-48b2-893b-c11cc0bd673d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a384723bbcb4f4ebae79685585d6788\u0022\u003EHon PAUL GOLDSMITH (Minister of Justice) \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister of Finance:  I move, That the Appropriation (2022/23 Confirmation and Validation) Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00225ed873dcf9a2461ea431b160261958f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ed873dcf9a2461ea431b160261958f1\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022 data-id=\u00224041414782ba4adaa53b8212fff723cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224041414782ba4adaa53b8212fff723cb\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Maureen Pugh)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, with your leave, I suggest that before we start the first reading of the next bill we adjourn for the dinner break and resume at 7.30 p.m.\u2014sorry, we\u2019re suspending until 7.30 p.m. Is there any objection to that? OK, we\u2019ll see you back here at 7.30\u00A0p.m. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224d83c8a5-2f48-4991-9c45-b1a6060daedd\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 5.54 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b67b1bd06291420f9f2694c57821d54d\u0022\u003EOranga Tamariki (Repeal of Section 7AA) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b46d0461a4944f739550ab46ad6c1e27\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf264687893c4197bfe9b09ee180b4c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf264687893c4197bfe9b09ee180b4c6\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR (Minister for Children):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Oranga Tamariki (Repeal of Section 7AA) Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274ac821ea2954a038bcc77c4ae7ec861\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a88065bc68349e0beb2189d4e260952\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Oranga Tamariki (Repeal of Section 7AA) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Social Services and Community Committee to consider the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s a privilege to stand here and speak to this bill tonight. Many MPs hearing this speech tonight may have been present the last time I spoke to this exact same bill while in Opposition. It was a member\u2019s bill that I had put in the biscuit tin in the hope of starting a conversation around the decision making on where our most vulnerable go when they are not safe and when they need the State to step in. When I became the Minister for Children, I made it clear that my intention was to refocus the children\u2019s system on the wellbeing and individual needs of children. I want our system to ensure that every child in this country is raised in a loving and stable home that sets them up to succeed for life, regardless of race or culture.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EAs a child growing up and dealing with Child, Youth and Family Service myself, I can tell you that all I wanted was a stable home where I could feel loved, safe, and wanted. During my time in Opposition, and before coming to Parliament, I heard devastating stories about how some Oranga Tamariki staff prioritised cultural considerations and the desires of the child\u2019s family over the individual needs of the child. This sometimes led to unsafe care decisions and disruption for both the children and the caregivers. I saw firsthand the devastation on caregivers\u2019 faces and the pain in their voices after being told a \u201Cfor ever home\u201D did not necessarily mean just that. I saw the damage caused to a family that by the grace of God managed to find a M\u0101ori relative a few generations back after receiving the threat of having a child removed from them because they were not M\u0101ori. That was enough to save them from a reverse uplift. It\u2019s the same house, the same people. Nothing had changed; just the fact that they could trace a small piece of M\u0101ori in their bloodline.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EI had caregivers tell me of being forced to send children to visit previous abusers just to keep the family connections, with the attitude that the child needs to know where they came from. There was no regard for the trauma this was causing the child or the caregivers, who were too terrified to speak up, knowing they would be perceived as racist and that the child may be uplifted if they spoke up. Then we had the very public case of a young girl referred to as Moana. Moana was traumatised and neglected for years before being removed and placed into a safe, loving home\u2014what was meant to be a for ever home, until a social worker decided they needed to remove Moana from their care because a P\u0101keh\u0101 family could not provide for her cultural needs. Then there was the latest Newsroom story that covered four children being uplifted in a similar way, all because they were the wrong ethnicity. This is the most heartbreaking thing to see, and it should not just be accepted. In all of these awful decisions, section 7AA was given as the justification.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EEvery child deserves the same level of care and support based on their needs, and their safety and wellbeing should always come first. This bill is the first step in this direction. While its original aim was well intentioned, I believe that section 7AA of the Oranga Tamariki Act\u00A0has been able to be used to influence care decisions that have put vulnerable children in\u00A0harm\u2019s way by prioritising cultural considerations over safety and wellbeing. While I\u00A0applaud the incredible work our front-line staff do to protect and care for children in need, section 7AA puts pressure on social workers to prioritise cultural considerations over the needs and safety of individual children while making care decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s important that I make it very clear that this bill does not prevent Oranga Tamariki from retaining its current strategic partnership or from entering into new partnerships with iwi, hap\u016B, and M\u0101ori organisations. I have personally made my expectations clear to officials at Oranga Tamariki that they should continue the good work that has been done in this space if the agreement is working in a positive way and to the betterment of our children. I have never said that wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, and iwi should not play a part or a role in the care of our young people. I support empowering all communities, and the Act already required this prior to the inclusion of section 7AA. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EI welcome the robust discussion during the select committee process and would like to take this opportunity to encourage all those affected to make a submission. I know there are many caregivers out there who\u2019ve felt they could not speak up in the past, and this is an opportunity to do so\u2014to have a voice in the debate\u2014because, after all, you are the ones who open your hearts and homes to the many children I have spoken about tonight, and I have to say how grateful I am to all those who do so. Quite frankly, anyone who argues that the safety and wellbeing of a child should not be the most important consideration needs to take a good hard look at themselves. A child does not choose to live in fear or be harmed and hurt. The Government cannot control what happens to young person before they come to the attention of Oranga Tamariki, but they sure as hell can control what happens after. Abuse and neglect does not discriminate, and when a child cries out for help and we have a system that sees them as an identity first and a child second, we have a real problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EThis bill is about making sure that all our children are in the best environment that will provide them with the best start in life. It\u2019s about ensuring the kids\u2019 need for love, safety, and freedom from neglect are placed first, as they should be. If we truly see our children as taonga, let\u2019s start treating them like they\u2019re precious, because right now many children in this country are being treated like a piece of furniture that gets passed around from place to place until they\u2019re broken beyond repair, with no care for their rights or needs, and this needs to stop. It is a disgrace that my role even needs to exist in New Zealand. But I will tell you why I stand here today\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291958280e69f4c25a17c1d0f80b4ac08\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Because you\u2019re a sell-out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022740ccaa99d744e739fe391b716aaf21e\u0022\u003EHon KAREN CHHOUR\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014willing to take the abuse and the mud that\u2019s been thrown my way. It\u2019s names like Baby Nga Reo, or Baby Ru to many; Malachi, Maya, Carla, Leanne, and, most recently, to add to our list of shame, Falute Vaila. I think of the K\u0101hui twins, Nia Glassie and many more. Those are just some of the names\u2014many names\u2014that will never be spoken again, as they are the invisible shame of our nation. Then there are those who survive and are often denied a better life, their voices being silenced and unheard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EI have heard a lot about Treaty obligations, rights of iwi, M\u0101ori rights, and racism. But where is this same level of outrage when a M\u0101ori child takes their last breath in this world because the people who are supposed to love them and care for them do not? Surely, love, safety, and treating our children with basic human decency is a priority instead of the easy way out of blaming racism and the Government for our shameful child abuse problems. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002286ae9a20-33bd-4912-8dc1-5b4eb670be44\u0022\u003EThis may be hard and uncomfortable to hear, but I will never make excuses for those who choose to harm our most precious gifts. I\u2019m not here to use lazy arguments of racism being to blame for the loss of our precious children. I never want to see another child torn from a loving home for life because the caregivers are the wrong race, and I never want to see another traumatised child sent back to their abusers because they are the right race. That is what section 7AA has contributed to and I am proud to repeal it. If the other side of the House will try to paint this as racist or try to paint me as some kind of traitor to my race, I know New Zealanders will hear the empty, hollow words for what they really are. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6a96e541ff44506b9a2d6813bcf0d87\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u00225396042d9ff94166b5bdd2a95efa42f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225396042d9ff94166b5bdd2a95efa42f1\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Mr Speaker. You may not have heard but during Karen Chhour\u2019s speech, I certainly heard Willow-Jean Prime say, \u201CYou\u2019re a sell-out.\u201D Now, that kind of personal reflection is explicitly prohibited in the Standing Orders, specifically Standing Order 121, and it\u2019s my view that for this House and for this debate, it would be best if she stood, withdrew, and apologised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc8a59a5a15748a6bfb16fa5aa07775c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc8a59a5a15748a6bfb16fa5aa07775c\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I have looked at the Standing Order, 121, and certainly if the Hon Willow-Jean Prime did use those words\u2014I didn\u2019t hear them\u2014then I\u2019ll invite her to stand, withdraw, and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecd3bc95e75d49f490c49cf2244fc26e\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238a4a670b193417ab52172e71c9c311a\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022 data-id=\u002208315577e5274599bed8392cc94954ec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208315577e5274599bed8392cc94954ec\u0022\u003EHon WILLOW-JEAN PRIME (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. Jack Gibbons, who endured the suffering that section 7AA was helping to stop, says \u201CMy extended M\u0101ori wh\u0101nau spent 11 years searching for me. I faced extreme hardship and disconnection, and Oranga Tamariki never revealed my existence to my wh\u0101nau.\u201D Tupua Urlich, a former ward of the State who was the first survivor to speak at the M\u0101ori public hearing for the abuse in care royal commission of inquiry said, about repealing section 7AA, that \u201CIt\u2019s going to take generations to undo that harm. So when the Government turns around and fails to acknowledge our rights, it\u2019s just another stab in the back.\u201D State care survivor Paora Moyle told 1 News, \u201CIt is cruel to take children away from whom they belong to, their standing place, whom they know themselves to be.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EThe reasons the Minister has given for the need to repeal section 7AA are that the Minister believes that it creates a conflict between the best interests of the child and the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi. On 13 December, I asked the Minister to explain what that conflict was, and I asked her how she can claim that there is a conflict in upholding the best interests of the child, when section 4 of the same legislation says that in all decisions of Oranga Tamariki, the best interests of the child is the primary consideration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EThe Minister this evening has talked about high-profile cases, prominent individuals\u2014caregivers, I would add, not the children who she spoke to\u2014as the reason for the need to repeal section 7AA. Now, I want this House to take on board what the regulatory impact statement says and what the Waitangi Tribunal\u2019s final report on the repeal of section 7AA says about those reasons that the Minister has given. What they have said to those claims that we heard tonight is that there is a lack of robust evidence to support the view that section 7AA causes harmful changes to long-term care arrangements. In fact, on page 9 of the regulatory impact statement, it says that \u201CA range of stakeholders\u201D\u2014and caregivers and concerned wh\u0101nau members, as the Minister has referred to. In response to that, they say \u201CThere is no empirical evidence to support the notion that section 7AA has driven practice decisions that have led to changing care arrangements. We have heard anecdotal concerns from a small number of caregivers\u201D. They go on to say, \u201CThere is, however, no evidence to suggest that these concerns are related to the duties outlined in 7AA. Some concerned stakeholders and advocates have expressed their view that section 7AA was responsible for previous high-profile changes to care arrangements.\u201D They say, \u201CAgain, we do not have evidence as to whether section 7AA explicitly influenced these care decisions, but internal evaluations suggest that it did not.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003ESo I only have five minutes in this first contribution, but what I say to this House is the reasons that the Minister is giving to repeal section 7AA, there is no empirical evidence to support it; said by your own officials, said by the Waitangi Tribunal\u2014it is only anecdotal, it is only hearsay. What is actually driving this is political ideology. They are anti-M\u0101ori, they are anti - Te Tiriti o Waitangi; that is what is driving this. Because for all the things the Minister has claimed, there is no evidence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003EI will finish on the fact that she was not prepared to present to the Waitangi Tribunal and answer these very questions so that we could all understand what the problem is and what the possible solutions could be to this issue. She says she\u2019s proud. Well, I don\u2019t think she should be proud of condemning future generations to having issues with their whakapapa, their connections, and their whanaungatanga. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022a3397b986f4e4eccb6b242d6a9a3fe82\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a3397b986f4e4eccb6b242d6a9a3fe82\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has come to an end.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab604d77957d4f8da25d3b068cdf26d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab604d77957d4f8da25d3b068cdf26d4\u0022\u003EKAHURANGI CARTER (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you. I am sitting here listening, trying to make sense of why this Government is repealing a law that protects vulnerable children, a law which has proven itself through positive outcomes for those vulnerable children, a law which the Government should be praising because it helps right the wrongs of the State, which has systematically failed children and wh\u0101nau. This is the Minister\u2019s trauma-informed decision-making, not evidence-based policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s important that New Zealanders understand what we are really talking about here. We\u2019re talking about a Government who is making decisions based on their own anti-Tiriti vibes, not evidence. We know the Prime Minister doesn\u2019t understand section 7AA, because today he said, \u201CWe are united in the coalition Government that we are prioritising the wellbeing of the child ahead of their cultural needs.\u201D They\u2019re the same thing\u2014they are the same thing. This is a dangerous game the Government is playing, essentially saying honouring Te Tiriti is harmful to tamariki. Let me be clear: there has been no empirical evidence that 7AA puts cultural needs above the wellbeing of the child.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EIf this Government was serious about evidence-based policy making, it would wake up to the hard evidence presented to it by officials time and time again that the ratio of M\u0101ori to non-M\u0101ori in State care has reduced because of 7AA, that M\u0101ori children in State care have reduced because of 7AA, that children and young people in care are telling us 7AA is working. All of the names the Minister for Children has just mentioned, those tragic cases were all before 7AA came out. Evidence\u2014let\u2019s use the evidence. When we make decisions based on the best knowledge and evidence, we all win. This Government is gatekeeping knowledge by not using evidence, and our tamariki are the ones who lose out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EWe are all here because we want the best for our children. That is what unites us, and we have to hold on to that and embrace it. Isn\u2019t that what our kids deserve? It\u2019s our duty to take the best knowledge from the mainstream system and from te ao M\u0101ori. We can take the best of both worlds so that our tamariki grow up safe and protected. Instead of repealing a bill which is protecting children from a State that was harming them, we need to be looking at more solutions, because there is so much more that we need to do. We cannot throw the baby away with the bath water.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003EThere is no denying that this Government has failed as a guardian, especially to M\u0101ori children, who are continuously overrepresented in statistics of abuse in State care, outcomes in health, education, housing\u2014a shameful fact for all New Zealanders. Section 7AA is how we keep Oranga Tamariki and the State accountable to protecting children; 7AA enables restoration into generations of systematic neglect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s not forget why 7AA was brought in: to manaaki children to be their best selves, connected to their community and their wh\u0101nau, because the State was failing our tamariki. Seven out of 10 children in care were M\u0101ori. Oranga Tamariki staff were failing to adequately find homes within a child\u2019s wh\u0101nau, ripping them from their wh\u0101nau and whakapapa without due cause. Section 7AA is about accountability and protecting tamariki M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003ETe ao M\u0101ori has so much to offer. In te ao M\u0101ori, we look to nature for guidance. Tamariki are like seeds in the forest, filled with so much promise and potential. When their root systems grow strong, they can weather many storms. Our tamariki need strong roots connected to their wh\u0101nau, just like the trees in our forest. Systems in nature teach us how to care for our tamariki. Like that very seed, the child is part of a wh\u0101nau, a community, and it is their birthright to be connected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003ESitting in the gallery today is Wh\u0101nau Ora and K\u014Dkiri Marae, who support children and wh\u0101nau to stay connected. They put the safety and protection of children first always\u2014something this Government should learn from. By repealing 7AA, their incredible success stories and mahi with wh\u0101nau and tamariki are in jeopardy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u00223008a4adea384f41a5b61305049db54b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223008a4adea384f41a5b61305049db54b\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, this is a very emotionally charged debate. I\u2019ll invite you on both sides just to observe the tikanga of this House and just keep your comments away from anything personal, please. I\u2019ll allow debate to take the course it has, but please just observe that in these quite emotionally charged times, things can get out of control quite quickly. So I\u2019ll invite all speakers and all interjectors just to take that into account, please. Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022 data-id=\u00227dac583d31704a078fcf2c582a367ced\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227dac583d31704a078fcf2c582a367ced\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E I\u2019m pleased to rise to take a call in this debate. As you said, it is an emotionally charged issue, as it should be, because what is at the heart of this legislation is the protection of our most vulnerable children. That\u2019s what this change is about. I want to be clear about what it\u2019s not about. This is not about a Government being anti-M\u0101ori; it is not about a Government being anti-Treaty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003EWhen the legislation was originally introduced, the intention always was that the child\u2019s interests come first. I wouldn\u2019t have thought there would be anyone in this House who doesn\u2019t want to see the reduction of harm against our most vulnerable children, right? So we want to see more children protected from harm. Unfortunately, we have seen examples\u2014as a constituent MP of 16 years, I have heard constituents who have come to me with exactly this issue\u2014exactly this issue. So I\u2019m not going to stand here and say that Governments of either side have got it right in terms of protecting children from abuse. The list that the Minister read before was a blot on all of us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb4a5b1e90984b73ab890c66ad56c946\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Before 7AA existed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1ceb68529cd47d4ba58a15444074f76\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, it\u2019s still happening today. It is still happening today. And anyone in this House who denies that we are not still harming children is in La-La Land, absolute La-La Land. Get real in terms of what the focus of this legislation is about. And although we would like to see that we have not had decisions where children have been removed from homes\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202bd3772f98b4bf3814b8cb8f623021e\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: You haven\u2019t. That\u2019s what your regulatory impact statement said when you made your Cabinet decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b75d3c34f094416bf3a6e4a1636e983\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: No. You are completely distorting what this debate is about. It\u2019s really unfortunate that the members opposite aren\u2019t listening to what the heart of this debate is about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bcbe2c2153e841a6972b9bc66e2fe0a8\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Evidence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8860527db31416a8318023e0076ed31\u0022\u003EHon Peeni Henare\u003C/span\u003E: Evidence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ceb9ecbfd824450bdc7bac34441a9b4\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely. And the evidence is, when a child is removed against their best interests\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022263873f52a044c4ea3e4dde3b98b41cb\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: There is no empirical evidence\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022157ac793640841c4a01c37d5446b193f\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m sorry, but I\u2019ve dealt with cases as an electorate MP of constituents when exactly this has happened. So you might want to deny it. I know it would be really nice to deny it doesn\u2019t happen, but it does. It is happening. So I\u2019m just so disappointed that the Opposition don\u2019t want to listen to the reality of the primacy of what this bill is doing. So when the accusation came before about ideology\u2014and, unfortunately, I think what we\u2019re hearing from the other side because of their lack of willingness to engage is about ideology\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f98e90320ac43129872d8d1698d0bdb\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: You haven\u2019t read the evidence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237ff9242d9374604a3be7041e37b44c9\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: Of course I have\u2014of course I have. I\u2019ve worked with this legislation for years. I\u2019m the Minister that\u2019s changing the oversight to Orangi Tamariki to make sure it delivers better than it is today. How do we do that? How do we do that? We do that by ensuring the best support is available and the decisions are made in the best interests of the child. [Interruption] That should and must always come first. We have to use every tool available to us, and unfortunately\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2f995bfc3b849b9920c687109fa5977\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Ah, look, members, I\u2019ve just stopped the clock at the moment. I just wonder whether the Minister engaging across some very loud interjections\u2014this is a very important debate with people who want to hear the arguments, so interjections: short, sharp, and relevant, not a continual barrage. So please, members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a68928ea-9dd8-4a30-8e2c-a0f49dfc8bea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022469cf64ab56948e7b07d46f0ac96671b\u0022\u003EHon LOUISE UPSTON\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. It\u2019s actually quite embarrassing because I think those people who want to listen to this debate would be embarrassed about what\u2019s happening in terms of the barracking across the House. Because what members opposite aren\u2019t thinking about is it might be a small number of children that are affected by this, but, actually, for them, it has had significant impacts on their life, their future, and their opportunities. Those are the children we should be thinking about in this particular legislation. So, look, in many cases it works well. We need more M\u0101ori organisations to partner with the Government to do fantastic work on the ground. But, actually, in some cases, the application of the law has shown that this change is required to ensure that we protect the most vulnerable children in this country. Unfortunately, the Opposition wants to turn it into a debate that it\u2019s not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022 data-id=\u00226c2523c2a8e6410a9f171cb00c9904b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c2523c2a8e6410a9f171cb00c9904b1\u0022\u003ETANYA UNKOVICH (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to support the Oranga Tamariki (Repeal of Section 7AA) Amendment Bill. New Zealand First is steadfast in its belief that there should be a focus on actionable outcomes for those who are in need. We believe in securing the immediate safety and wellbeing of our most vulnerable, especially our children. There has been a concern around section 7AA addressing a child\u2019s cultural needs ahead of their immediate safety, stability, and wellbeing. We believe that cultural considerations, whilst important, should not impede a process and possibly put a child\u2019s safety and security at jeopardy. There is a genuine concern that section 7AA, when executed, is simply too traumatic for the young child; hence, removing this provision from the Oranga Tamariki Act, which puts an obligation on the chief executive around abiding by the Treaty of Waitangi in decision making when it comes to caring for our\u00A0young people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b21beb09-9d9b-4414-9bb1-ddba249459d5\u0022\u003EIt is hard to imagine the possible trauma for a child when uplifted. The child may have been told that this is their for ever home. They are settled and have developed a connection, a bond with their new carers, some over several years, only then to be removed. Genuine need must transcend race, religion, or other similar factors. The obligation under section 7AA does not put the overall welfare of the child first. The child and wellbeing of the child, the care and wellbeing of the child, must come first. The child\u00A0must be safe at all costs, period. I look forward to the select committee in hearing submissions and going through this process. Hence, on behalf of New Zealand First, I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022 data-id=\u002272fec48a7e264500aa0350d093f6057e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002272fec48a7e264500aa0350d093f6057e\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI (Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Te Tai Tokerau): \u003C/span\u003ET\u0113n\u0101 koe Mr Speaker. Kia ora. Meinga hoki! [Is that so!] The parties of the Government have doubled down on the extermination agenda for M\u0101ori\u2014[Interruption] Just hold tight. My use of that word made a lot of you uncomfortable, and I\u2019m glad to hear it. The repeal of section\u00A07AA is a targeted extermination of our babies\u2014hold tight: don\u2019t have feelings yet\u2014exterminating any ounce of culture, identity, and any sense of their M\u0101ori selves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EWhat many don\u2019t have the cultural intellect\u2014despite any other intellect\u2014to understand is that a M\u0101ori person is different to a P\u0101keh\u0101. Moana Jackson and He Whaipaanga Hou said: \u201CA M\u0101ori person is shaped by cultural forces which are unique to their being M\u0101ori, and is subject to influences which are consequent upon that sense of M\u0101ori-ness.\u201D So I speak to all the M\u0101oris in this room: let that sink in\u2014let that sink in. And if you don\u2019t, you\u2019ve declared to the whole House who you actually are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EThe consequence here is cultural extermination\u2014killing the wairua of M\u0101ori babies, so they just fall\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f5850d827e54a18a0dd7ca89971f086\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Ms Mariameno.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef62365411b54cbc89f9ae59459ad2f8\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, I\u2019m just trying to speak over\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f56e860355964442843ed4334b5e67ef\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re debating a bill here, and debating the bill is not attacking the opposition. Can we speak to the bill, please?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cdf9584af93446b99535ba63685d0bd\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m\u2014yes, of course. Yes, so I\u2019ll carry on. Thank you, Mr Speaker. The consequence here is cultural extermination\u2014killing the wairua of M\u0101ori babies so they just fall in line and go into P\u0101keh\u0101, making things easier for makers of law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s not pretend section 7AA is about race or segregation. It\u2019s about power: a power which can only be maintained where M\u0101ori believe from the day that they are born that we are less than. It matters not the exact deals the shameful Government have conjured up using our kids as chess pieces. What matters is that those in power think that they can mess with our mokopuna and get away with it. The very fact we are discussing this repeal at its first reading today exposes the mass injustice by this and all K\u0101wana.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EThis repeal reflects the lie fed to us that we are not good enough to look after our own and we are better off handing our flesh and blood to P\u0101keh\u0101. The painful irony is that our babies have been physically harmed in State care, and thereby turn to crime as salvation. E te K\u0101wana [To the Government], you are criminalising our babies. Meinga hoki r\u0101. [Is that so?]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003ETo say that culture and identity are being valued more than tamariki welfare is a bold-faced lie. This repeal does not point to a single shred of evidence. There might be feelings and stories\u2014that\u2019s not evidence\u2014that prove section 7AA has led to decisions which have unduly favoured whakapapa and placed tamariki M\u0101ori in harm\u2019s way. Even the title of the bill is tactically sterile and underplays the seriousness of the matter. More accurately, it should say \u201Cremoval of M\u0101ori\u201D and perhaps then more of us would oppose this repeal. I\u2019ve committed over half my life to social work with wh\u0101nau, hapu, and iwi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283696c3477334a4b83622240355db0d9\u0022\u003EHon David Seymour\u003C/span\u003E: Probably better you\u2019re in here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275892a4a37ee433ca65d48eaf1cebc84\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI\u003C/span\u003E: When Puao-te-ata-tu was released, I was on the front lines. I am doubtful, however, the Minister or any of the Government have taken the time to read that seminal report, otherwise we wouldn\u2019t be discussing this repeal. [Interruption] I\u2019m just to ignore the nonsense on the left\u2014they can\u2019t help themselves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003ESection 7AA moves us towards direct M\u0101ori involvement in social welfare policy practices\u2014the key priority of Puao-te-ata-tu. But this Government is not interested in analysis, logic, or facts. The Minister\u2019s own officials advised against the repeal, in sync with the Waitangi Tribunal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EWhen section 7AA was introduced, the Human Rights Commission applauded the provision. It recommended the duty be strengthened to a direct obligation to form strategic partnerships with iwi. An indigenous model of care is, and will always be, the answer for our tamariki M\u0101ori. While this idea is not revolutionary, I know this new generation of M\u0101ori are\u2014and they will see our mokopuna M\u0101ori returned into our care in their lifetimes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EAlthough this Government strives to further alienate our children from themselves, Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori will not stand by and watch\u2014we have never and we never will. I say again\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002247e44ec79a524e24835a94c29a9871e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247e44ec79a524e24835a94c29a9871e5\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has come to an end.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u00222631d90a7c524d3fb62c8ded28bfaf8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222631d90a7c524d3fb62c8ded28bfaf8e\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise to speak in support of this bill. We\u2019ve heard some passionate speeches tonight, and we\u2019ve certainly heard some passionate words said around the country, but I think one thing should be clear to all of us in the House: we all care about our children in this country. We all care about the future of our children in this country. Unfortunately, there have been some words that I think have been said in the heat of emotion and passion that aren\u2019t actually connected to the reality of what we\u2019re doing here and what this Government is doing, which is aiming to focus Oranga Tamariki on the wellbeing of children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s absolutely important\u2014it\u2019s vital\u2014that children are connected to their whakapapa, that they\u2019re connected to their wh\u0101nau, that they\u2019re connected to te ao M\u0101ori, that they understand and are deeply connected to them, but the reality is that\u2019s not always possible. So the reality of that is that absolutely, we must focus on the wellbeing of the children of this country\u2014that\u2019s absolutely important. I don\u2019t think there\u2019s one person in this House who would disagree that we need to focus on the wellbeing of our tamariki. That\u2019s what we\u2019re aiming to do with this. We\u2019re aiming to focus on this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ESo, look, let me just go through a few short things. So every child deserves the same level of care and protection\u2014every child. The focus on their individual needs and their safety and wellbeing, needs to be put first. Culture, whakapapa, wh\u0101nau, te ao M\u0101ori connection\u2014critical. Absolutely critical\u2014I don\u2019t disagree with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EWhile this bill repeals references to cultural consideration in section 7AA, it does not remove existing provisions in other parts of the Act which require decision makers to consider cultural factors in care decisions. So they will still be required to consider cultural factors in care decisions\u2014so just be really clear about that. It\u2019s absolutely important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThis does not prevent Oranga Tamariki from retaining current strategic partnerships\u2014it does not take that away\u2014or from entering into new partnerships with iwi, with hap\u016B, and M\u0101ori organisations. It does not take that away from Oranga Tamariki. So that is absolutely important for Oranga Tamariki, and I have total confidence that Oranga Tamariki will be doing that. They will be doing that\u2014I\u2019m absolutely confident they will be doing that, and I\u2019m making it very clear in this speech that it is an expectation that they will be doing that. So this will not be taking that away\u2014that is absolutely clear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThe Independent Children\u2019s Monitor will still report on the strategic partnerships that Oranga Tamariki has with iwi and M\u0101ori organisations as part of their broader reporting on outcomes for M\u0101ori children, young people, and their wh\u0101nau, so that will still be happening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ENow, look, if we just go back a little bit into the history of this, there was a Newsroom article back in 2019 which highlighted uplifts of M\u0101ori children, and that set a big part of this conversation, and absolutely without due cause. But I don\u2019t know whether everyone in this House has seen a more recent article from Newsroom as well: \u201CRestored: the Newsroom story the Crown and court didn\u2019t want you to see\u2014\u2018Two wrongs don\u2019t make a right\u2019 \u201D about a reverse uplift. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ESo if I just read a little bit from this: \u201CIn June 2019, the practice of uplifting babies was exposed in a Newsroom Investigates video. The documentary, which showed \u2026 behind the scenes when a young M\u0101ori mother from Hastings refused to hand over her newborn, would force a huge shift in Oranga Tamariki\u2019s policies and operations.\u201D\u2014that\u2019s a good thing\u2014\u201CThe five official inquiries that followed our investigation slammed the agency\u2019s approach to removing babies from their mothers and the systemic racism behind it: it was revealed tamariki M\u0101ori accounted for 70 percent of children in state care, and that M\u0101ori babies were being taken into custody at a rate five times that of non-M\u0101ori.\u201D\u2014something none of us want to see\u2014\u201CThen on July 1, 2019, section 7AA of the Oranga Tamariki Act came into force. The new legislation laid out the ways in which the state needs to uphold the right of tamariki M\u0101ori to be connected to their culture and whakapapa.\u201D\u2014something we all agree on\u2014\u201CThe combined effect was immediate. With the Hastings uplift backlash building, Newsroom understands Oranga Tamariki requested an audit to find out where uplifted M\u0101ori children had been sent, looking specifically at non-kin carers. Essentially they were finding out exactly where the M\u0101ori kids were, and we were asked to find out the ethnicity of their carers and the status of their placements. That\u2019s why they\u2019re on spreadsheets in OT offices up and down the country,\u201D an OT social worker told Newsroom. Oranga Tamariki, it seems, were in a scramble to self-correct.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThen the article goes into a very sad story of where children have been put into what they were told was their for ever home and then they were taken away from that home. So let\u2019s be clear: we want to protect our children, we want them to be connected to their whakapapa and their wh\u0101nau, and we support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022 data-id=\u00222b642bdc989e4b3d87e9b8d7bd9bb8ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b642bdc989e4b3d87e9b8d7bd9bb8ea\u0022\u003EHon PEENI HENARE (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I stand in opposition to the Oranga Tamariki (Repeal of Section 7AA) Amendment Bill. I want to take some members on a little history journey. First, I acknowledge my whaea Mariameno Kapa-Kingi. I\u2019ve heard many members in this House, in particular on the other side of the House, do the \u201CHe aha te mea nui o te ao? He tangata, he tangata, he tangata.\u201D They\u2019re quoting my and Mariameno Kapa-Kingi\u2019s tupuna Meri Ngaruto. Actually, if you dig a little bit deeper, beyond the facade that members in this House often use, you will find what she\u2019s speaking to is whakapapa, connection: the ability to know where you are from, to understand where you are going. I want that to sink in to members in this House, because I\u2019ve heard it on the political stumps during election, I\u2019ve heard it at all of the wh\u0101nau events that I\u2019ve seen members at. But that\u2019s what it means, and that\u2019s why it is important that we oppose this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThis evening, we\u2019ve heard from the Minister for Social Development and Employment; who we haven\u2019t heard from is the Minister for Wh\u0101nau Ora. Wh\u0101nau Ora is important to the wellbeing of families across this country. That\u2019s why it\u2019s called Minister for Wh\u0101nau Ora: wh\u0101nau, family; ora, wellbeing. I want to know whether or not the Minister will front up to the people who oppose this bill, who have made their position clear as day to that Minister and, indeed, to this Government, that section 7AA should not be repealed. The Minister for Wh\u0101nau Ora\u2014and I was the Minister for Wh\u0101nau Ora, in my time\u2014acknowledged that we could do things better. Ng\u0101 Tini Whet\u016B was born through a partnership, to ensure that we can continue to support our tamariki M\u0101ori to stop them from going into the systems we don\u2019t want them to go into, like Oranga Tamariki, like the legal system. It was a kaupapa designed to make sure we can support our people our way: connected to their culture, connected to their whakapapa. What this repeal bill does is it doesn\u2019t compel the Government, nor does it hold the Government to account, when it comes to the care of tamariki M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EWe keep hearing that \u201COh, well, it\u2019s the need for all tamariki\u201D, simple maths for that side of the House. Most of those tamariki are tamariki M\u0101ori, and every single one of them have a wh\u0101nau. They have a whakapapa, they have a marae, a maunga, an awa. Tonight, what\u2019s happening is an absolute travesty. We\u2019ve heard from the other side of the House, who continue to say, \u201CWe will use the evidence and we make evidence-based decisions.\u201D Well, the evidence is quite clear that repealing section 7AA, in the Oranga Tamariki amendment bill this evening, isn\u2019t evidence-based. It needs to consider the years and years of evidence, the many reviews that have been undertaken under the previous National Government and under the time when Labour was Government, to make the system better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EThis is definitely a step in the wrong direction. I expect it from the ACT Party. I do. I\u2019m not surprised by that. That\u2019s their ideology. That\u2019s their dogma. But I want to call out the National Party, the Minister for Wh\u0101nau Ora, and make sure that they are held accountable too. This isn\u2019t just an ACT Party thing; this is a National-led coalition Government taking our people backwards. We want to see that Minister, and the many Ministers, front up to our people and explain to them why they\u2019re taking them backwards. There are a number of other avenues where these could have been discussed, and, perhaps, even the Opposition clearly debated through, and one of those is in Cabinet. I wonder\u2014and our people are asking the question\u2014did the Minister for Wh\u0101nau Ora stick up for our wh\u0101nau? Did other M\u0101ori Ministers in that Cabinet discussion stick up for our wh\u0101nau? Quite clearly, they did not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EVery soon\u2014very soon, the National-led coalition Government, supported by the ACT Party and the New Zealand First Party, are going to have to front up to our people. There are a number of hui coming up. They were happy to come to all the other hui\u2014they\u2019d better start coming to the hui coming up, so that they can front up to the people, answer the questions. I can tell you, Mr Speaker, in the seconds that I have left: that side will be held to account.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e77494a0-1be1-432f-b492-fd160f4c119d\u0022\u003EI\u2019m going to say it one more time: \u201CHe aha te mea nui o te ao? He tangata, he tangata, he tangata.\u201D\u2014speaks to whakapapa, speaks to connection. I\u2019m ashamed when I think of all the times that I\u2019ve heard members, in particular on that side of the House, use that quote and misquote it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022 data-id=\u002264348ccf4df4493cb70ed8fd4a450761\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002264348ccf4df4493cb70ed8fd4a450761\u0022\u003EPAULO GARCIA (National\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E I stand wanting to say that if children were able to see us now with the passions that are being displayed, with all the good intentions on both sides being expressed, and the indignance behind the desire to strengthen a culture, they would probably look at us and say, \u201CWhat about us, the children?\u201D They are not as sophisticated in their language. They are not at the level that everyone in this House is able to speak and shout and judge and label. They will just be wanting to be provided the opportunity to live the best lives they can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003EThere are other children in the care of Oranga Tamariki. While it is true that the greater percentage is M\u0101ori\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227a31ee40-34c3-42b0-9459-7a7e9c815d6a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e83aa12ca0e64c228a92cd14b3fda457\u0022\u003EKahurangi Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, seven out of 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a44d621f573840f785394bdebe2c0eed\u0022\u003EPAULO GARCIA\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, yes. If I may, I think we can dial down the anger, because we can\u2019t see\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220f7d126e-c18d-4466-9ebe-d424ae5c4bf6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9deb8486a2b448bab7ee3f1e8e2d585\u0022\u003ERawiri Waititi\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not anger; it\u2019s righteous anger, and it\u2019s passion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e21887c0438047d5a4e1c925666f66fb\u0022\u003EPAULO GARCIA\u003C/span\u003E: OK, so I will just\u2014[Interruption] So my point is that if children could see what is happening now, they would probably just want to clamour for what they need, as children do. They need to be cared for, they need to be in stable conditions, and they need to be loved. Love does not call out by race. Love is called out by the kind of values that the care environment provides to the children, or seeks to provide the children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204e1c19252d64f798103643ad9261dc0\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: Are you saying there are no loving M\u0101ori wh\u0101nau that could take these children on?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a36241c0ea8c4f72a1cf3adc1068459c\u0022\u003EPAULO GARCIA\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, no. I\u2019m just saying what I\u2019m saying. People can take whatever meaning they want to take out of what I\u2019m saying, but what I\u2019m saying is that children just want to be cared for and loved and put in stable environments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c5190cd3e244fa59c1bc47e230a0aa0\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s what we want too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299549bbdc9ca4a389247c2cd13722c75\u0022\u003EPAULO GARCIA\u003C/span\u003E: We all want that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221ebd1031-ea10-4c3d-bb56-2cd99528ae91\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c035a45c0de4652918a7c97ec832c6d\u0022\u003EHon Willow-Jean Prime\u003C/span\u003E: With wh\u0101nau.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211b34b81f2a648ada1cc305979bbb74f\u0022\u003EPAULO GARCIA\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s true that there is a deeper connection with cultural values behind the upbringing of children. True. There is no battle about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cddd679e49de447ea0997413ae9c32fd\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s why we\u2019re here. That\u2019s what we are debating on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229dd02bb5343d4491872ca088dee73980\u0022\u003EPAULO GARCIA\u003C/span\u003E: No, because not all children in care are M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b02867349dc45559057d2d3134ae403\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: This is about 7AA M\u0101ori mokopuna.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223aba832308454b26a833d3d260b731dc\u0022\u003EPAULO GARCIA\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m just pointing out there are children in care who are not M\u0101ori, and just like M\u0101ori kids, they will be looking for the love and support and environment that they need to grow in a stable environment. There is no\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edd76f5f9c5d4716a4afc71b7cfaac47\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Garcia, if you\u2019d mind just sticking to the bill. It might just be a good idea at this stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbee26a7378e4e66ad84ed567a6f2a20\u0022\u003EPAULO GARCIA\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. The removing of section 7AA does not restrict the engagement and specialised relationship that iwi, hap\u016B, and M\u0101ori organisations offer. It does not strip that. It also provides opportunities for existing relationships to carry on, as long as they are able to provide that environment. That\u2019s the whole object, because it is possible that, in the way the law is there, it can be abused. Thank you, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u00224a45202a65414a74a53158f05db171e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a45202a65414a74a53158f05db171e6\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E We\u2019ve had a number of speeches from the National Party MPs tonight which have passionately defended the rights of children. They have talked about the need for stability, for love, for the kinds of conditions which let children flourish and acknowledge those important things like whakapapa and a sense of identity for children. So how frustrating it must be for these National Party MPs to be championing an amendment to a law that was written and passed by the National Government in 2017, which had support from ACT\u2019s David Seymour, which the ACT Party have now made into a political football which has chased votes of exactly the type of people who have rarked up a divisive debate in Aotearoa New Zealand that we did not have before this election campaign that ACT have drawn on for votes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EHow frustrating it must be for not only the National members sitting on the other side of the House tonight but also their Cabinet, who have to put up with ACT using our country\u2019s legislative process to rark up a debate that is damaging for social cohesion. Even the official advice presented to this House points to Government documents which say that the kind of social cohesion and disruption that this bill and the Treaty principle causes will have long-lasting effects not only on our society but our democracy too. How frustrating that must be to be sitting in this debate tonight on the wrong side of history.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe changes to the original Act that we are talking about tonight were made at a time when the care and protection system was in crisis by National Minister Anne Tolley. She had the right idea here. She was working with New Zealand First Minister Tracey Martin, who called these changes that are being repealed tonight a \u201Ccircuit-breaker\u201D, because things weren\u2019t going right for M\u0101ori children in care then, and we needed to try something different, and that trying something different resulted in a care and protection system which for the first time was responsive to the needs of M\u0101ori children and wh\u0101nau M\u0101ori who were engaged in the care and protection system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe Minister for Children now, Karen Chhour, has claimed that race-based factors set out in section 7AA create a conflict for the best interests of the child, but the official advice\u2014as you\u2019ve heard from my colleague the Hon Willow-Jean Prime\u2014says exactly the opposite. In fact, the New Zealand First speaker tonight repeated those claims and said that cultural considerations were getting in the way of proper care and protection. That is verging on misinformation, which is misleading to the public. The official advice says exactly the opposite of that. This House has a responsibility to pass law which is based on facts and evidence, not on political reckons which are then used by a political party to absolutely scrape the bottom of the barrel for votes that they could not garner otherwise. Shame on them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThere is a lack of evidence that section 7AA is leading to settled care arrangements being disrupted, but, again, we heard those claims repeated by the Minister in this debate, when the official advice has proved that wrong not once but twice. In fact, on page 9 of the official advice which the Hon Willow-Jean Prime quoted, it says \u201CHowever, due to Ministerial commissioning, the identification and assessment of [other] options\u201D\u2014other than this option which we are being presented with now\u2014\u201Cfalls outside the scope of this analysis.\u201D So not only is this Minister coming to the House and presenting this bill as if it is the only solution, she also commissioned the advice in a way that did not let her officials propose any other solutions to care for children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003ESo when that side of the House comes here and says that this is about caring for the most vulnerable children, we can see a paper trail of evidence where the officials are telling Cabinet that they were not afforded the ability to suggest changes that would actually have a lasting effect. This is about politicising our most vulnerable children, and shame on that party for drumming up that kind of debate in Aotearoa where it doesn\u2019t belong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe proposed repeal of section 7AA would also remove the requirement for the chief executive to report on the impact of M\u0101ori children who come to the attention of Oranga Tamariki. This change was absolutely a good one. It allowed the chief executive to spotlight the treatment of M\u0101ori children in care. Those children have been on the steps of Parliament every year asking legislators to highlight their needs and this Government has removed a legislative requirement without any consideration for what they\u2019ve heard over and over again from these children.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThis is a divisive piece of legislation, designed to drum up divisive, ugly politics. They\u2019re ugly politics for political end and they have no place in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea56adb69fd543d8acfe5fb0691b3a9a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea56adb69fd543d8acfe5fb0691b3a9a\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR (Minister for Regulation):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise on behalf of ACT in support of this Oranga Tamariki (Repeal of Section 7AA) Amendment Bill. I\u2019ve stayed to listen to this whole debate to see what different members have said. I heard Karen Chhour, the Minister responsible, say that this Government\u2019s ambition is care for vulnerable children that sets them up to succeed for life, regardless of race or culture. She said that there are alternatives where the Government takes children out of a safe environment and puts them in a dangerous environment because the safe environment has parents of the wrong race.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EShe gave an example of one such set of parents, where they were going to lose the child that they had committed to care for for life. They were going to lose that child because they weren\u2019t M\u0101ori, and then because they found a distant M\u0101ori ancestor, they were allowed to keep the child. That is how absurd and how racist our society has become\u2014the way that Oranga Tamariki has been behaving\u2014and I\u2019m proud to stand on this side of the House where we are saying that each child should be alike in dignity and have the same basic rights and duties as they grow up in this country, regardless of their race.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EYou might wonder how people could start thinking about that. Well, actually, then we heard from Willow-Jean Prime, and if there was ever a failure of logic, it was this: Willow-Jean Prime repeatedly said that there was no evidence that section 7AA made any difference because section 4 actually says that the rights of the child always come first anyway. Now, if she\u2019s right, then she wouldn\u2019t care about section 7AA because it doesn\u2019t make any difference. But then came the lady from the Green Party, who\u2019s been here for five minutes\u2014I don\u2019t know who she is; I don\u2019t much care, because she\u2019ll probably be gone in a scandal next week anyway. But this Green Party person said, \u201CLook, actually, the wellbeing of the child is the same as their cultural needs.\u201D So, if we believe this lady, then all of a sudden, actually, 7AA is going to affect whether a child is taken out of a home or not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a503e324-3a0b-4efd-bf44-ec6740ec9a62\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277d9b29d54e740ee894d2d5deb2beca6\u0022\u003ECamilla Belich\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I understand it is the practice of this House to refer to members by their full name.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280cfbe2dea4d4cffa2dc01b3354d9f6b\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s fine\u2014carry on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9b9a26070ca4b09962695be8645d0ae\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I\u2019m sorry to the people at home for that gratuitous and out-of-order interruption.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201c6ac43966e427cbdde332aa17674ea\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, Mr Seymour, no\u2014now you will withdraw and apologise. Do not comment on the Chair\u2019s findings, so you will now apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228532314961054afc8d3afaadf9d5b87b\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc51cb2b6cba4cdcaa75c14468ffcf1a\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: And now continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fa65553ba9b4f88a02296f468555f77\u0022\u003EHon DAVID SEYMOUR\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker. The facts are that these two speakers contradicted each other. One of them says that section 7AA makes no difference, which raised the question of why she cares if we get rid of it. The other one said that, actually, your race and culture are the same as your wellbeing. Unfortunately, that is the problem at the core of the debate, that children have been taken out of houses where they are physically safe, where they\u2019re nurtured, where they\u2019re loved, and put back into dangerous environments as a result of race. That is absolutely reprehensible in any free society that respects the rights of each person to live in equal dignity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EOver here on this side of the House, we believe that there should be a place for everyone, and we believe that people are made up of many different strands. People have different hopes and different dreams. Yes, nearly every New Zealander has a blend of racial background, and that brings me to the real question of this debate, of why people are just so angry\u2014why we heard the speaker from the M\u0101ori Party saying that the consequence is cultural extermination, killing the wairua of M\u0101ori babies, and making them P\u0101keh\u0101. That is really what betrays the motivation of people on this other side of the House who oppose this bill. They are race fanatics. They believe that a person\u2019s race is more than all the other attributes that make up a person.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227e22bb95-9afb-449c-bcd2-de9fd4f2277c\u0022\u003EWell, I\u2019m so proud to be standing next to Karen Chhour, one of the most courageous women and people in this Parliament, who is standing up for that simple, timeless, and essential idea that it doesn\u2019t matter who you are or where you come from or what your race is, you will be treated the same under the law of this country by the authorities of this country. There\u2019ll be a place for you in this country, no matter what your background may be, and maybe one day these folks will understand it, too. Thank you, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b8f1b4b2a5a74a0287c6b1b018979ca2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Oranga Tamariki (Repeal of Section 7AA) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000727\u0022\u003EBill read a first time. \u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022039e7165ae584b23a31e391c2a9dfd51\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EOranga Tamariki (Repeal of Section 7AA) Amendment Bill be considered by the Social Services and Community Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Residential Tenancies Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te P\u0101ti M\u0101ori 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022c3b19453a7ec4ed0964cdfdcc7600146\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c3b19453a7ec4ed0964cdfdcc7600146\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000729\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Social Services and Community Committee.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c4cb8d7580404742b9b23e13389d8444\u0022\u003EResidential Tenancies Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c7cf4577c7a94f179506bfac9cb16a29\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022 data-id=\u00226d14d75d39a9474ca72b510cf4a83c33\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d14d75d39a9474ca72b510cf4a83c33\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E I present a legislative statement on the Residential Tenancies Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c2f56c344ac4cf7b6bbb54b9f16a074\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: That legislative statement is published under the authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201f1799022a24f9a9114b5127e6d085a\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Residential Tenancies Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I nominate the Social Services and Community Committee to consider the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThis is an important bill that proposes sensible, much-needed changes to the Residential Tenancies Act 1986 which will remove barriers to increasing private rental housing supply as well as introducing pet bond provisions\u2014which is part of the National-ACT coalition agreement and has generated a lot of excitement amongst many people, particularly pet owners. The approach of the previous Government when it came to landlords ultimately caused worse outcomes for tenants. Rents increased rapidly under the last Government; the social housing wait-list that we\u2019ve been talking about a bit in the House over the last couple of days increased by around 20,000 families; and of course we have, very sadly, many families in New Zealand living in emergency housing motels.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ENot all of these problems can be put down to the residential tenancies changes that the previous Government implemented in progressive stages, but some of those problems can be put down to that. For example, the removal of 90-day no-cause terminations by the last Government made some landlords unwilling to take a chance on tenants who don\u2019t have perfect references or a steady nine-to-five job, or had just left prison, for example, or for a variety of reasons landlords didn\u2019t want to take a chance on. Many landlords just decided to exit the market altogether. I\u2019ve had many, many people say to me, \u201CThe combination of\u00A0interest deductibility, 90-day no-cause terminations, the brightline test. It\u2019s all just too\u00A0hard\u2014I\u2019m out.\u201D Ultimately, mum and dad landlords are an important part of the housing market in New Zealand, so this bill reintroduces 90-day no-cause terminations for periodic tenancies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIt also fixes the situation around the end of fixed-term tenancies. The last Government\u2019s changes to, essentially, make the roll-over of fixed-term tenancies into periodic tenancies essentially automatic has caused chaos in a variety of markets, most notably down in Queenstown, where previously there was a situation where many people would offer up\u00A0properties into the market for, say, six to nine months when they didn\u2019t need to use the property to become available for a fixed-term tenancy. The near-automatic roll-over of those fixed-term tenancies into periodic tenancies has meant that people just think, \u201CIt\u2019s all too difficult, we\u2019ll just put the property on Airbnb.\u201D, and then the property just is not used\u00A0for much of the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo we had the situation in Queenstown where you\u2019ve got a real homelessness problem; you\u2019ve got workers unable to get access to accommodation\u2014I see my good friend and colleague Joseph Mooney here, the MP for Queenstown and the wider region. So we are going to fix that problem. The chamber of commerce down there has made this point multiple times in the media. Because interestingly, the former Minister of Housing, Megan Woods, turned up there at the height of all of this. I\u2019ve forgotten, was it July last year? Maybe August?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e11048d7646c48f3b856f6187405c7bd\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: It was around then, yeah.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba782b54d0cc4f809e63257cf47b7f31\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: It was around then. We were approaching the\u2014she said, basically, \u201CI acknowledge the problem but, you know, we can\u2019t just fix this. You know, it\u2019s very difficult to change laws.\u201D Well, actually, she was the Minister. I found that quite remarkable, and I said to her, \u201CYou could put a bill towards the Parliament right now. We\u2019d back it. Put it through under urgency\u2014can fix it next week.\u201D That idea seemed to go nowhere. Well, we are fixing the problem. We\u2019re doing it as part of a suite of changes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EI\u2019ve also heard that this provision has caused problems in the Dunedin market. I\u2019ve also had some anecdotal evidence that this fixed-term tenancy change from the last Government has caused problems on Waiheke Island, which is a similar market in some senses to Queenstown.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259b6cc9eb69149d28e515de388495662\u0022\u003EJoseph Mooney\u003C/span\u003E: Is the local MP going to support it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220eb1b542d1294c89b20195f1384524de\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that\u2019ll be interesting to see whether or not the local MP for Waiheke Island\u2014who I think is Chl\u00F6e Swarbrick\u2014whether or not she supports this, because we\u2019ve got a similar problem with rental accommodation over on Waiheke Island. So let\u2019s wait and see whether or not that happens, but I\u2019ll hold my breath.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003ESo, ultimately, when it comes to fixed-term tenancies and the 90-day notices, we are incentivising landlords back into the market to put downward pressure on rents\u2014that\u2019s a good thing. Of course, in the medium term and the long term, the ultimate answer to rental affordability in this country is growth of housing supply. That\u2019s why we\u2019ve got a wider package of reforms coming that builds on the work of the Hon Phil Twyford, who I see\u00A0in\u00A0the Chamber, around the National Policy Statement on Urban Development, and the last Government\u2014the sole good thing the last Government did when it comes to housing. It builds on that work and tries to smash urban limits and allow for greater density inside\u00A0our\u00A0cities and sorting out the infrastructure funding and financing settings. So I won\u2019t dwell on that, but just to say we have more work to come on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EI think the good news is that collectively across the Parliament now, there is a consensus that the solutions to our housing challenges are fundamentally around supply\u2014actually tinkering around the demand side of it, tinkering around with other things extrinsic to the fundamentals of supply and demand leads you down a path that doesn\u2019t actually deal with the underlying issues. But the fundamental answer to our housing affordability challenges, whether it\u2019s homeownership or of rental affordability and indeed in social housing\u2014because K\u0101inga Ora and the community housing sector face the same planning and the same funding and financing constraints\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224462e265e39a4bd5a113ef9f69aa70da\u0022\u003EHon Phil Twyford\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a misrepresentation of the consensus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221476a7f3ef9c401d97793819fc1aa7fe\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I meant in a broad sense. I meant in a broad sense, there is now a\u2014well, put it this way: compared to, say, 20 years ago, when most of Parliament thought that the solutions to our housing crisis were not around supply, we\u2019re in a much better situation now than in comparison to 20 years ago. I mean, the Greens are yet to join the fun on this\u2014the Greens, sadly, still propose economically insane policies like rent controls, so the Greens are yet to kind of join the mainstream of the of the Parliament when it comes to housing supply. But we\u2019ve got a new spokesperson. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e1f3012aa1648c5ba9c0f845d06637a\u0022\u003ETamatha Paul\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ll always do better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228891526810c4068b1b3391e01253dbb\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Right, well, I don\u2019t think rent controls are doing better. Because, as I said in a debate\u2014I think it was last week in the House\u2014economists don\u2019t agree on much, but they agree on two things: one, free trade is good and it lifts incomes and raises economic growth; and the second thing they agree on is that rent controls are\u00A0nuts. In fact, I can\u2019t remember the exact economist, but the quote is basically \u201CThe single best way to destroy the housing stock of a city is rent controls.\u201D But we\u2019ve got a\u00A0new housing spokesperson for the Green Party, Tamatha Paul\u2014she\u2019s an energetic spokesperson and I\u2019m looking forward to her seeing the light and changing the Greens. But anyway\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f448c347fd5419aba7d4f2a6c74a73e\u0022\u003ETamatha Paul\u003C/span\u003E: Never!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6fee17e34c94216a8c0d16a425d3060\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014I digress. \u201CNever,\u201D she says. OK, we\u2019ll see\u2014we\u2019ll see. The other thing this bill does is it introduces provisions related to pets. So it\u2019s too hard to find rentals that are pet-friendly, and one of the reasons why that is is that many landlords are reluctant to take on pets. They worry about the damage; they worry about the costs. So what we are doing is enabling landlords to require a pet bond if they have agreed to the tenant keeping a pet up to the equivalent of two weeks\u2019 rent. They\u2019re a win-win: landlords have additional assurance they won\u2019t be out of pocket for the possible damage, and tenants with pets will have more rental options.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EIt also clarifies the consent rules. So the status quo is landlords are able to, essentially, say, you know, advertise on TradeMe, \u201CNo pets; don\u2019t allow pets\u201D. So under the bill, tenants will be permitted to keep a pet with the landlord\u2019s consent. Here\u2019s the critical point: landlords can only refuse a pet if they have a reasonable ground. So the bill includes a non-exhaustive list of reasonable grounds. For example, the property\u2019s unsuitable due to its size or the type or the breed of the pet; or the property\u2019s unsuitable because it\u2019s too small, for example. So there\u2019s a range of non-exhaustive list of reasonable grounds in the bill, and I\u2019m sure the committee will want to kick this around and I\u2019m very open to sensible amendments around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003EThere\u2019s also a range of technical changes to improve the clarity and efficiency of our tenancy laws. So the bill enables online lodgment of bonds, for example\u2014and you would have thought that would be able to be done for a while, but indeed it isn\u2019t. So we have to legislate for that, so we are doing that. That will improve the customer experience. This is a small but good change: the bill will allow the Tenancy Tribunal to make decisions by reading the relevant papers instead of having the parties attend\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a830ede74a8b4b438e12812e0080d121\u0022\u003EArena Williams\u003C/span\u003E: Which ones are the bad changes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002257e41e9d-285b-4fb3-847d-a63820ae7137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022414ea81a1ee044dbb5b1451ab003bde2\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS BISHOP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, they\u2019re all good changes\u2014they\u2019re all good changes. You might disagree, but they\u2019re all good changes. It\u2019s basically hearings on the papers rather than attending in person. Reduced costs. There\u2019s massive delays in the Tenancy Tribunal right now. This will help. It also confirms the long-held understanding that a landlord may prohibit a tenant from smoking indoors, which clarifies the law after some recent Tenancy Tribunal decisions to the contrary. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022b4b99557c24a42dba7b1410b435c3d04\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b4b99557c24a42dba7b1410b435c3d04\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022 data-id=\u002203ef96ac01b8412b9a6498c98ad64448\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002203ef96ac01b8412b9a6498c98ad64448\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. Right throughout every single debate, every announcement, and every policy debate, this Government has not been upfront with New Zealand when it comes to housing. They have been disingenuous, and this bill is yet another example\u2014the second in the last two days. There are aspects of this bill that makes sense. Their provisions to encourage landlords to take on tenants with pets, we support. The provisions to allow tenants to withdraw from a tenancy in the case of family violence, we support. But the core of this bill is that it is easier for landlords to dismiss tenants and make them homeless than it would be otherwise, and that is simply why we cannot support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EBut in order to fully understand this bill, it\u2019s important to understand the broader context of the housing debate and housing policy from this Government, and that is why I say they are being disingenuous. For the Minister to stand up in the House when introducing this bill and say that there is a consensus on increasing the supply, yet in seven months they have not made a single announcement that will lead to the increase in supply, or\u2014i.e., in simple terms\u2014the building of new houses. In fact, what is clear is that the policy changes that this Government has made will decrease and disincentivise and lead to fewer houses being built.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EIt is that simple, and that is exactly what this bill will do. When you consider this bill in the context of things like reintroducing interest deductibility, like what we\u2019ve seen throughout\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f134b65268634ffdafdfdfeaa92866e7\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: How will it make the building of houses less? Can you just walk us through that logic?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256480343de774c86bcc93e0c98e644aa\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve been asked for logic. How about you listen up? Here it is: taking away interest deductibility made an incentive to invest in new builds, and it was working. If you don\u2019t want to listen to this, listen to the evidence. As a result of moving that, we saw an increase in new builds and an increase in new homebuyers in the market. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255e7886fd6b349c294d24e4dd71cec55\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2014KiwiBuild?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a0cff1e4eb94c5ba5d63a3c4b170964\u0022\u003EHon KIERAN McANULTY\u003C/span\u003E: And then\u2014oh, he\u2019s changing the subject now. Typical\u2014typical National MP. He\u2019s asked a question, gets presented with evidence, doesn\u2019t like the answer, and so changes the subject. But I\u2019ll tell you what, for the sake of everybody else, I\u2019ll continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EWe saw investment in new builds, rather than contesting between speculators and investors on existing stock. That was driving up house prices, and this bill does nothing to help with that. By changing that, what they\u2019ve done is they\u2019re going to move investment away from new builds and increase speculation on existing stock. That means new homebuyers who were entering the market will not\u2014exactly what happened the last time National were in Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003ESo why is that important in the context of this bill? Because when people are able to be kicked out of their home easier, what\u2019s going to happen to them? They are going to look for more rentals, or they\u2019re going be homeless. Now, homelessness is an interesting part of this debate, because this Government has made it harder to access emergency housing and easier to be kicked out of K\u0101inga Ora properties. What is going to happen to them if there\u2019s no houses going to be built? They are going to be homeless.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EEvery way you look at this, this leads to more homeless people. The easier it is to kick people out of tenancies, the higher the likelihood that the homeless rate will increase, and it\u2019s very simple. They can holler, they can bicker, they can shout, and they can heckle, but they actually have nothing to refute the fact that their policies last time increased homelessness and increased house prices, and we saw a drop in the build of new builds, of affordable builds, and of social housing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a1f7bbd1-b6ae-41c0-963b-dbe1251f5540\u0022\u003EThey follow exactly the same policies, and now they argue that it\u2019s going to be a different outcome. It\u2019s rubbish, it is disingenuous, and that is the core point of my speech. It is that they are telling the New Zealand public that something is going to happen that actually isn\u2019t, because all evidence and all experience shows that what they\u2019re saying is simply not true. What they have done is they have packaged this up with the nice and fluffy bits, like the pet bonds\u2014and did you notice how the Minister focused on that for much of his speech? Because he knows the guts of this bill is actually going to be unpopular and that Kiwis can see through it, and they know that this bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00224a4c4f91cf884519b51e8854c76d0923\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a4c4f91cf884519b51e8854c76d0923\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022 data-id=\u00228d7e4d57ee164a38a5913568ebd6f3ec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d7e4d57ee164a38a5913568ebd6f3ec\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL (Green\u2014Wellington Central):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker. So today, the Government is introducing dramatic changes to rental laws in Aotearoa, and I want to be very clear about what these changes mean for ordinary New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227ef10ba8b70404ab45c03d98df4a092\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Lower rents!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c03cafa28324324b0d3198d4770d209\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL\u003C/span\u003E: Lower rents? I\u2019ll get back to you on how that actually goes as a renter. At a time where homelessness is increasing and more people are rough sleeping on the streets and in their cars; at a time where public housing projects for thousands of homes are being cancelled and delayed because those people cannot guarantee sustainable funding; at a time where families are trying to raise their families in motels and backpackers, where you have 16 people overcrowding in three-bedroom houses; and where children are routinely admitted to hospital because their homes are making them sick, because they are that mouldy and that damp that our Government has chosen to prioritise making it easier for landlords to kick tenants out of their own homes, not building more houses, not committing to sustainable funding to allow for more housing to be built, not making renting more secure or reducing the discrimination that renters face when trying to find a home, but making it easier for landlords to kick people out of their homes with no reason at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EBecause regardless of whether you have been the best tenant in the world, regardless of the value you have added to your home by maintaining it or even improving it, and regardless of whether your wh\u0101nau has settled into the communities that you have built roots in, your landlord can kick you out for no reason at all. And this is on top of the billions of dollars of tax cuts that this Government is giving to landlords. It makes me wonder who is being served by this Government. Is it purely landlords?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EWhat else do you expect when you elect a leader of a Government who owns seven houses at a time where people can\u2019t even make their rent? Minister Bishop would have you believe that good tenants don\u2019t get kicked out. And this is a statement by a Minister that is so deeply out of touch with the reality for average New Zealanders, because I put out a call asking good tenants to share times when they had been unfairly evicted, and I received over 500 responses in less than 24 hours. I want to share\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ed318673c7649bca1531c75a47513cf\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: How many of them were from Green Party members?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7077f2db74c44d288eb59fd05aa2574\u0022\u003ETAMATHA PAUL\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, you wish you had this level of social media engagement. The stories included this one: \u201CI lived alone.\u201D\u2014true story; first one there. Next one: \u201CI lived alone, paid rent on time, kept my home tidy, cosy, and maintained. Worked full-time as a senior analyst in a Government ministry. My landlord threatened me with eviction on multiple occasions for the following reasons: asking her to lodge my bond, asking to move in on the date that was set out in my rental tenancy agreement, keeping a small compost bin, and asking for the full 48-hours\u2019 notice of inspection.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EHere\u2019s another story: \u201CMy children had 12 homes by the age of 14. Many of them were houses that the landlord was selling or I chose to go into other houses, as they were better suited, to find out that they would be sold in six months\u2019 time.\u201D This can\u2019t be the country that we\u2019re living in where every single housing avenue for ordinary New Zealanders, whether that is private rentals or public housing, is insecure, unaffordable, and unattainable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EAnd the consequence of kicking people out for no good reason is this: constantly having to pay moving companies to move houses multiple times in a year\u2014if you can even afford a moving company; if you can\u2019t afford a moving company, you have to move the stuff yourself, which is impossible, impractical, and unaffordable for seniors and for people with disabilities; and you have to continuously re-enrol your kids in different schools because your new rental is in a different school zone. Moving those kids around schools is extremely unsettling for them and makes it harder for them to make friends and achieve in school. It means people are less confident in enforcing their rights and it means worse health impacts and costs to our already under-resourced public health system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002253958f14-2b54-4d1c-bfac-7b3ea85e1c2b\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll close by saying this: renters deserve better and I have no doubt that they will rise up and kick this Government out in two years\u2019 time for these actions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022 data-id=\u00227f03bf180f5641ec81f513d4906a8d7c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f03bf180f5641ec81f513d4906a8d7c\u0022\u003ECAMERON LUXTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. We\u2019ve heard tonight a lot about people leaving tenancies, despite not wishing to, in circumstances where landlords have given them notice to leave. We live in a country which is sparsely populated. The only reason we have got a shortage of housing is because of decisions made by Government that make it harder to build and provide housing to each other. The coalition is committed to easing access to housing for over 1.7 million New Zealanders by removing barriers to rental supply and incentivising landlords to get back into providing to the rental market. This bill affects slightly under a third of our population. And ensuring Kiwis have access to housing is the first step in providing a future where all people and pets have a safe and happy home.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EThe previous Government sought to increase hurdles in the housing sector, causing many of our landlords to exit the market. The amendments made today are sensible changes that work to fix that. This is a positive for landlords and tenants alike. These changes are part of the Government\u2019s plan to create a well-functioning property rental market. This ensures New Zealanders have a greater ability to access rental properties. To do this, we use all the tools we can to increase supply and make sure landlords and tenants feel represented in the changes we make today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EACT has been fundamental in ensuring landlords and tenants can leave a fixed tenancy by reversing changes made by the previous Government. This allows a landlord or tenant to give notice to end a tenancy up to 90 days but no less than 21 days before the expiry of a fixed-term tenancy. This bill reinstates the 90-day no-cause termination for periodic tenancies, and returning landlords notice period to 42 days in specific circumstances. And good news for tenants: we will increase the amount of notice that a tenant gives to end a periodic tenancy to 42 days as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EThis Government is introducing pet bonds, because we know that there are tenants out there who are more than willing to pay a bit extra so they can live with the pets they know and love. Anyone who has tried to rent in our major cities knows how impossible it is to find a place that is pet friendly. Approximately 64 percent of New Zealand households own at least one pet, and more than half of those remaining would like to get a pet. We are enabling you to have pets in rentals by ensuring landlords feel protected from some of the risks of sharing their housing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EWe are modernising our residential tenancy practices by including a range of changes to improve the clarity and efficiency of the Act. The bill proposes changes for the tenancy bonds, as we heard from the Minister, so that they can be lodged online, and maybe you won\u2019t need to chase your landlord up, as the previous Green member pointed out, but that should never be the case. We want to see responsible landlords in this country, as well as enabling some decisions in the Tenancy Tribunal to be made on papers, rather than dragging everybody in with expensive in-person hearing costs. Finally, this will allow the Tenancy Tribunal to process cases with much less of a delay.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfc7092e-b202-4acf-aa9c-8aebd551cc39\u0022\u003EWe are making it easier for people to have a safe home to live in. I am excited to see this bill before the House. Fundamentally, this legislation is about making it easier for one Kiwi to offer another a place to call home. It is a rejection of the Opposition\u2019s cheap campaign to pit landlords and tenants against each other. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022 data-id=\u00229d33cf0fa2504e149ff75e90d9c4a680\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d33cf0fa2504e149ff75e90d9c4a680\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks, Madam Speaker. Look, we\u2019ve heard quite a lot of hyperbole already in this debate and how radical this discussion that we\u2019re having is, but the reality is that we\u2019ve actually had this discussion before in this House, probably not that long ago, when the roles were reversed and the direction of the legislation was reversed, so it\u2019s not particularly radical. This is something which was signalled quite clearly in the campaign and signalled quite clearly in the coalition agreement that this was\u00A0the thing that the Government was going to do, and the Government is doing exactly what it said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EI look across the House there and say that you guys should try that, because it would have done you a lot better than some of the things that you did actually do when there were a lot of hidden agendas that you didn\u2019t tell the public about and you then proceeded to embark upon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022167309a35c914fb9b9f672abd7999841\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Not \u201Cyou\u201D, Mr Foster. Don\u2019t use the word \u201Cyou\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d75f146bbac4a0fbb28bb60ebb775fc\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, sorry, Madam Speaker; it wasn\u2019t you\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fb547d32f8c454ea54330476337b716\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s OK. Keep going.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022277b3fd5859c434dbb8cf4ce588c5e58\u0022\u003EANDY FOSTER\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ve been accused of being disingenuous by the Hon Kieran McAnulty, but this is very, very clear. This is exactly what we said we were going to do and it\u2019s exactly what we are doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s interesting that when you read the regulatory impact statement, there is clear difference between the submissions which were made by the landlords and people representing landlords and people representing the tenants\u2014clear difference between those two parties about what the best arrangements are between them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s also clear that the advice that we\u2019re getting actually is nuanced and there is no parallel universe to test the advice and say, \u201CWell, if you do it this way, it\u2019s going to work better than this way.\u201D or \u201CIf you do it this way, it\u2019s going to work better.\u201D So this one is a balancing act. Obviously, on that side of the House, they\u2019re falling on one side of the argument; on this side of the House, we\u2019re falling on the other side. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EBut the great thing here is that what we\u2019re going to do is go out to the public with this piece of legislation and we\u2019ll give the opportunity for the public to have their say. What I hope is that, instead of going backwards and forwards and backwards and forwards, somewhere we might have the collective wisdom to be able to find the right arrangement. The reality is that the vast majority\u2014if we had good tenants and good landlords, we wouldn\u2019t need to be involved in this at all. The vast majority of people are good tenants and good landlords, but there are some who are not. Sometimes the tenant needs to be protected against the landlord; sometimes the landlord needs to be protected against the tenant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EWe heard over there from the Green Party that so often, tenants are kicked out for no reason. But as a landlord, why would you kick a good tenant out? What is the purpose of doing that? If they\u2019re a good tenant, they\u2019re paying their rent, they\u2019re not damaging your property, why would you kick them out? That is completely stupid and is against your best interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003ELook, we know that the Labour Party didn\u2019t set out to demonise landlords, but the reality is you look at the kind of legislation they\u2019ve passed, you look at the approach they\u2019ve taken, and time and time again from that side of the House, we\u2019re hearing the arguments against the deduction of interest against the cost of running a business. Every other business is able to do that, but poor landlords, they\u2019re not able to do it, according to that side of the House\u2014there\u2019s something wrong with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EBut while they probably didn\u2019t set out to demonise the landlords, what it looks like is that\u2019s exactly what they are doing. You know, the funny thing is that what landlords are doing is they\u2019ve responded to that and they have withdrawn from the market. The funny thing is that what that has done is it has driven up rental costs, so it has actually not been in the best interests of the tenants. So what I\u2019m saying is that we need to find a balance and find a way through this, and that is exactly what the idea of the legislation is to do, because it opens up the conversation again to be had.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EA good tenant is worth their weight in gold to a landlord. It gives you security. It means that you know that the hard-earned money that you put into that property is going to be looked after well. It means you know that there is going to be a secure income coming against that property. I cannot see why a good tenant will be kicked out by a good landlord. The legislation which we\u2019re bringing in really is about dealing with the problem relationships which there are from time to time, and if all relationships were good, we wouldn\u2019t need to be involved in this. The problem is that they are not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EThe debate has been had, and, sadly, we\u2019re all going to have to do it all over again, so my appeal to submitters and my appeal to us in this House is to see if we can find a middle ground that is a sustainable way forward for both landlords and tenants and for \u201CNew Zealand Inc.\u201D, because if we don\u2019t do it, it is not going to be good for anybody.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227dbfbd83-6770-4555-8477-85fa01511504\u0022\u003EThe final thing I\u2019d like to say, in the last few seconds I\u2019ve got\u2014Kieran McAnulty talked about house building. The reason that house building has dropped off is a very simple one. It\u2019s the economy\u2014the cost of building has gone up like that. The value of houses went down like that. What do you expect to happen? Lots of developers have pulled out of the market simply because they cannot make the numbers work. Similarly, a lot of landlords have pulled out because they can\u2019t make the numbers work with the kind of regime that is in place at the moment and without that interest deductibility. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022 data-id=\u0022c33709afc15a42149187824b713e735e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003ETe P\u0101ti M\u0101ori\u2014Te Tai Tokerau\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c33709afc15a42149187824b713e735e\u0022\u003EMARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI ():\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, Madam Speaker. I rise to speak against this bill. Changes to the Residential Tenancies Act are dangerous for M\u0101ori. The changes would, for one, reintroduce 90-day, no-cause terminations for periodic tenancies. This supports landlords\u2019 power to end a tenancy without requiring a specific reason. This is dangerous for our people, given that there is a higher proportion of M\u0101ori who reside in rental properties and social housing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EThe research shows that M\u0101ori report higher rates of movement between homes, at 8.7\u00A0percent compared to 5 percent of New Zealanders. The reality of this is M\u0101ori moving five times within five years. Creating changes to the Act will likely make living conditions within the homes of our people more difficult, less manageable, and, ultimately, unstable for our tamariki. Anyone with a wh\u0101nau, raising children, will know the difficulty of having to move, especially with young ones. Our wh\u0101nau make it work, but they shouldn\u2019t have to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EIn Tai Tokerau, nearly 40 percent of the population identify as being of M\u0101ori descent. We have some of the highest rates in the country for our M\u0101ori population, and at home we are facing increasing numbers of our community accessing social housing. We cannot reduce this, we cannot aid in a transition into stable housing, when we continue to place more power into the hands of landlords. The Minister of Housing, Chris Bishop, claims that the changes to the Act will encourage landlords back into the rental property market. I must implore the Minister: is this the most effective way to improve the housing market? I must then question whether the Minister understands the obligation as a partner of the Te Tiriti o Waitangi, when he continuously supports choices that he knows will negatively impact on M\u0101ori communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EOf M\u0101ori in Te Tai Tokerau, the median age is 27 years of age. It is difficult, country-wide, for our younger generation of first-home buyers to enter the housing market, given that it is predominantly the older generation who remain in a position of homeownership. Our young M\u0101ori in Te Tai Tokerau face major challenges when looking to transition from rental properties into the housing market. To improve this market, our focus should not centre around enhancing conditions for landlords. We should, simply put, be providing quality housing at affordable rates. Regardless, age factors cannot be attributed as the sole reason for lower rates of M\u0101ori homeownership. Intergenerational wealth plays a major role in this process, and considering our continued experiences of colonisation, it is unsurprising that M\u0101ori remain excluded from spaces. The figures recorded in 2018 are reflective of this. Only 31 percent of M\u0101ori were in a position of homeownership, compared to 57.9 percent of New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002227600399-0a88-4371-a784-b5a7bc7afc37\u0022\u003EIt is evident the group of people whom this Government prioritises, and it has been evident since the beginning of their term. Again, M\u0101ori are disregarded, and, in actual fact, the poor are. What the Government illustrates to us is that we are not worth a single bill, a single amendment or repeal, unless our failure is their financial success. I do not at all commend this to the House. T\u0113n\u0101 koe, Madam Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4985460822f4cc884ae83f00eb6b532\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4985460822f4cc884ae83f00eb6b532\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY (National\u2014Southland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I appreciate the opportunity to take a call on the Residential Tenancies Amendment Bill. I rise in support of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EThis reverses changes made by the last Government, which were no doubt well intentioned and trying to assist renters, but actually had quite the opposite effect; a classic example of the unintended consequences principle, which is often seen in this House, and the implications flow out into our country from well-meaning decisions that unfortunately aren\u2019t well considered, and don\u2019t take into account all factors, and, in some cases, have effects that can\u2019t be foreseen by anyone. This, however, was an impact that was foreseen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EWhat has happened is that this, effectively, is an example of the perfect being the enemy of the good. So, trying to protect renters but not taking into account the reality of human nature, and the reality of conditions for people who own houses and need to rent them to others. There are 1.7 million renters in New Zealand; 80 percent of those renting rent from the private market\u2014not from the Government\u2014from the private market. It\u2019s over half a million homes that are provided by the private market in New Zealand. That\u2019s something that the Government cannot do\u2014the Government is not in a position to be able to provide those homes. The regulatory environment needs to be structured in such a way that people are willing to rent their houses, and the no-cause termination\u2014or the periodic tenancies\u2014that we\u2019ve seen have had an impact that has been quite extraordinary in my own region in Queenstown, as well as other places in the country. Literally, it became a crisis where people were unable to find a house. People were sleeping in their vans, sleeping in cars, sleeping in all sorts of places around the region that were literally unsafe. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ENow, people had houses, but they were not in a position to rent them out, or not willing to rent them out. So, I\u2019ll just give you an example. This is a fairly common one that was recounted to me. People often have a holiday home in the region\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3294f426f45486198954f2c7c049a1c\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: They live in Arrowtown, and they have a bach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c536bc3581d342aca08ffc351368b47f\u0022\u003EJOSEPH MOONEY\u003C/span\u003E: No, they don\u2019t just live in Arrowtown, they have a holiday home in the region. They used to be quite willing to rent those out for some of the year, when they didn\u2019t need that house. They wanted to be able to come on over usually during the summer season to spend roughly a few weeks or a month in that holiday home\u2014something that they worked hard for much of their lives for to be able to purchase and have. Because of this change to the legislation, they are unable to do that. That meant that a lot of people who would otherwise have had access to the house throughout the year, and many of them\u2014people who worked a seasonal job were unable to have those houses. That means that people were literally living in their vans as a consequence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003ETo be clear, this bill will not solve everything. The reality is we need a lot more houses, and that is something that the Government is doing with the fast-track legislation, which I know that the Opposition is also opposing. But the aim is to actually try and get a lot more housing into our market, because ultimately we want people to own their own home, and that is something that young people, I think, aspire to. We want our young people in this country to have that opportunity to purchase their own home, make a life for themselves, and to have a place that they can call their own. But, in the interim, they need to rent, we need them to be able to have places to rent, and we need to have landlords who are willing to rent that to them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EAnother example is a survey done in Queenstown: over 70 percent of businesses cited housing for workers as an important issue for their businesses, with one in three saying that housing represented the biggest barrier for achieving optimum staffing levels. They advocated for urgent solutions, I note. As Minister Bishop spoke to before, the previous Minister of Housing from the previous Government came down to Queenstown, was told this was an urgent issue that needed to be solved, and that though, again, wouldn\u2019t solve everything, addressing this issue around these no-cause terminations, or the lack of, would help solve that problem\u2014literally, people would put more houses on the market. However, the last Government didn\u2019t address that, and I\u2019m very pleased that this Government is doing so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222170b5bd-171f-4d9f-bfa6-cab72178f108\u0022\u003EI\u2019ll just make one last comment on rent controls that I was speaking about earlier. I have to say Sweden is an example of rent controls: it takes nine years for someone to get a house there\u2014so, again, a well-intentioned policy that has not worked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022 data-id=\u0022d3d41dd1e525463a80c13555f244c78d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d3d41dd1e525463a80c13555f244c78d\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS (Labour\u2014Manurewa):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Speaker, thank you. It\u2019s a good day for mega-landlords. If you are one of the 900 people or legal persons who own the 22,100 homes which are owned by this special class of large property investor, then 90-day evictions clauses\u2014that\u2019s the policy for you. You\u2019ll be excited by this bill, but for everyone else, this will have a big impact on our communities, on not only housing but on education and on the ability for people to put down roots into their communities and to make a contribution. So this is not the bill that this House should be voting through tonight. This, in fact, is something that all members of this House should reject, because it does not do anyone any favours, not just the renters, for whom their rights are being taken away by this bill but everyone who has to live alongside people who are being disenfranchised in the very homes that they live in and in the places which they call home, which are meant to be safe for not only them but for their children. This is not well-thought legislation. It is also being rushed through, and it\u2019s something which I hope we will see some wisdom about later and come back to this House and amend.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThe problem with this bill is that it\u2019s also part of a suite of bigger packages which go alongside rules which take away renters\u2019 rights and make it easier for landlords to get rid of tenants that they see as problematic. That together, we\u2019ve heard from the Prime Minister in question time today, is meant to put downward pressure, as he said it was called, on rents. Now, the problem with this is that the Reserve Bank, the Ministry of Housing and Urban Development, and Treasury have all presented reports which are publicly available which say that, actually, rents are not determined by downward pressure on landlords\u2019 costs or by taxation but they are in fact determined by the amount of money that people have to spend on them\u2014by people\u2019s incomes. So making that claim repeatedly in this House that this kind of legislation will bring rents down is simply false. It\u2019s not true that this kind of legislation, which would see more people out on the street, which would see more vulnerable families displaced from their houses and will ultimately increase homelessness, is the answer to rents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022371161d22d3849f684e8c66ca06e8fab\u0022\u003EGrant McCallum\u003C/span\u003E: Yours increased rents\u2014your policies increased rents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0d5964dc4e049f49e1c4de2a9c4949e\u0022\u003EDEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Not the word \u201Cyou\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f97ed637ef440dda005429b47cc0721\u0022\u003EARENA WILLIAMS\u003C/span\u003E: What is the answer? It\u2019s putting more funding into K\u0101inga Ora and the ability to build more houses. But instead we have heard an obstinate refusal from that Government to put any of the extra funding that\u2019s required into K\u0101inga Ora to build more homes. In fact, those programmes are paused, and it\u2019s that kind of decision making which is short-sighted and we should see for what it is, which is taking away renters\u2019 rights with no ability to provide the housing that New Zealanders need to live the kind of lives that they want their parliamentarians to be enacting for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EThis kind of thing leads to bigger problems. For people who are not renting, we should see this as leading to further absenteeism in schools. We should see this as the kind of movement around communities which displaces people and stops parents from being able to keep their children in the school which they had started in and also keeps parents from being able to contribute to community sport, to their churches, to their local organisations, which need volunteers but will not have them if people have to constantly move around.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EYou heard from my colleague Mariameno Kapa-Kingi, who said that, actually, this is an issue of equity too, that the people who are most frequently displaced in Aotearoa New Zealand are wh\u0101nau M\u0101ori, that these people find it the hardest to find long-term, secure, warm, dry homes. These are exactly the people who we should be supporting into those homes, so that they can continue to make a contribution to their communities, so that they can put down roots and find the kinds of lives that we want them to be able to live.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b464a62e-d900-452a-b842-e3cf4ccc6149\u0022\u003EBut instead, this kind of legislation says, \u201CNo, we don\u2019t care about that. Instead, we\u2019re going to prioritise the 900 people and legal persons who own 22,100 homes between them.\u201D That is the size of the city of Nelson, owned by mega-landlords in New Zealand, and this kind of policy makes it easier and cheaper for them to run that like a business. Housing should not be treated like a business. Housing is a right, and the renters whose rights are being taken away by the National Government should hold them to account at the next election. Consider these changes alongside those housing changes at K\u0101inga Ora which are actively promoting tenants being kicked out of their homes. These changes are not going to make a positive difference in our society, and I do not commend this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc39b3d2ff0243b0a8cfaf9a8a15f993\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc39b3d2ff0243b0a8cfaf9a8a15f993\u0022\u003EPAULO GARCIA (National\u2014New Lynn):\u003C/span\u003E We do need to use every tool that we have in New Zealand to increase housing supply. One of these tools is to incentivise or to encourage people with more than one house to enter or re-enter the property rental market and to increase the number of properties that are available for rent. It really boggles the mind to propose that when a good tenant has found a good home with a good\u00A0landlord, the landlord would want to use any opportunity, willy-nilly, to get rid of that tenant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003EThe Residential Tenancies Amendment Bill focuses on that very situation where it may be that a tenant has demonstrated that they are unable to maintain the tenancy agreement that they have signed into. The Residential Tenancies Amendment Bill focuses on providing the landlord with the opportunity for no-cost terminations. Now, whenever the 90-day, no-cost termination is mentioned, there is that reaction: that this will be used willy-nilly to get tenants out of homes. But, again\u2014if we pause for a moment\u2014good tenants will always be in demand by persons who consider themselves landlords and offer their properties that they have worked hard to hold and offer to other people to live in. There is that responsibility to maintain that household for the tenant. Reintroducing the 90-day, no-cost termination for periodic tenancies is really just providing an opportunity for landlords to exit, should they need to, and, again, it is not something that a reasonable mind would consider to be there for willy-nilly use.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003EAlso, providing landlords with the opportunity to end a fixed-term tenancy without requiring any specific further reason\u2014it\u2019s a fixed term. The term ends and the landlord can choose not to continue for another fixed term or to go into a periodic tenancy\u2014this is restored to the landlord.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229188988b-e79b-4381-969a-982d0ebdb3ca\u0022\u003EThe amendment bill also addresses a major issue among New Zealanders, which is that Kiwi families are estimated to have around 64 percent of New Zealand households owning at least one pet and\u2014this is very interesting\u201459 percent of people who don\u2019t have a pet would like to have a pet, and I am probably one of those. The restrictions on having a pet in a rental property are very complex, and what this bill tries to bridge is that idea of having pets in a house that may be destructive. We all know that dogs, when they\u2019re very young, will be trying their teeth out on everything that they can manage to find\u2014and also cats, especially, who are wanting to run around. So the bill provides for pet bonds and for more people with pets to have the opportunity to find good rental accommodation alongside their pets. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2ece700afad467fb1aed3c949fade06\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2ece700afad467fb1aed3c949fade06\u0022\u003ELEMAUGA LYDIA SOSENE (Labour\u2014M\u0101ngere):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. It\u2019s a real pleasure to rise and speak against this bill. Because the Government has signalled its strong support for landlords, it has chosen to ignore the longstanding work that Labour had delivered under our previous Government. But instead, it\u2019s chosen to make the choice that it will be rewarding landlords with $2.9 billion\u2014and you would think that\u2019s a sufficient incentive; it goes further with this bill because it weakens the ability for tenants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EMany of our tenants across the motu will be very worried that the Residential Tenancies Amendment Bill doesn\u2019t provide the hope and also will add the stock availability for housing choices for people who are still on that rental ladder. In fact, reading through the bill, it will not provide a single rental property in the private rental market and it won\u2019t help tenants, and I\u2019m going to just continue to stress that point. It actually weakens the ability for tenants. It provides them with uncertainty. Tenants across the board who don\u2019t have the current means, financial means, to step on to the property ladder; it makes that dream go further. The no-cause termination proposals are not about helping tenants; it actually proposes the opposite.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EWe heard Minister Seymour say the policy will fix the problem for tenants, but in actual fact due to landlords being given the ability that within pet clauses, that will actually help them. And the Minister quoted the rationale of these proposed changes that tenants will have the required benefit, and a better incentive for landlords would be to negotiate and critique and be able to offer their tenants or new tenants to be able to critique them, because they can now come in with a pet. We don\u2019t oppose that and it offers that closeness or option for that particular family or tenant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EWe also heard Minister Bishop announce recently that the changes implemented quoting sensible pro-tenant changes to help increase the supply of rental properties. The reintroduction of the 90-day no-cause terminations for periodic changes means landlords can now go back to ending a periodic tenancy agreement without providing a single reason. Now, that\u2019s not going to assist many of the tenants across the motu. What does that do for the tenant? What pathway of certainty does it provide for families who are in a vulnerable situation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EI just want to quickly talk about a local example in M\u0101ngere. In my rohe, in my electorate, there are over 4,000 K\u0101inga Ora properties which provide housing choices for over 16,000 tenants. In the private rental market, there is also a number of thousands and we\u2019ve seen some new dwellings of properties in our local area. But we also have other pressures of cost of living. And we\u2019ve got a number of school principals that I have spoken to recently who are worried about tamariki being moved all over the motu because of the situation and the new bill. So it provides a myriad of issues for people in my local area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022db7fcb82-2c50-44e1-9f32-d9138c14006e\u0022\u003EI\u2019m just going to quickly talk about an example of a tenant who moved into a property, who didn\u2019t because English was his second language. These are the types of problems that are caused when a tenant doesn\u2019t fully understand the obligation. The landlord had been quite kind and given him the opportunity to miss one week of rent, but that\u2019s $600. This bill will not give the confidence for that particular tenant because the landlord at any time can choose to end that tenancy without any specific reason. Labour opposes this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022 data-id=\u00229cc88f2a7e014bc08e96e04bc696bd05\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229cc88f2a7e014bc08e96e04bc696bd05\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Speaker. Well, great news. This is great news: the war on landlords is coming to an end. Finally, we have some common sense coming back to our rental market. This is what the tenants require, and this is what the landlords require. Look, one of the early things we did was we\u2019ve brought back into play the ability for people who run a business\u2014like every other business\u2014the ability to deduct interest as a business expense. That\u2019s the first thing we brought back to the table for landlords.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003EDuring the campaign, I got people coming up to me who were mum and dad investors, and this figure was something that was pointed out to me by one of my colleagues: 83\u00A0percent of rentals are owned by mum and dad investors\u201483 percent. These are the people that have worked hard, saving a few dollars for their retirement so they can enjoy themselves in their twilight years. They came up to me and showed me their little profit and loss account, and they were losing money under the previous Government. Losing money, going backwards\u2014why? Because the previous Government declared war on them. They didn\u2019t care about landlords, and they didn\u2019t care about the fact that they were looking after themselves. Appalling! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003ESo we\u2019re changing that, and it\u2019s desperately required. Then the other thing we\u2019re going to do now is actually allow people to have fixed-term tenancies. Well, actually, as was indicated by the member for Queenstown\u2014well, Queenstown and the Southland area\u2014when he pointed out that you couldn\u2019t do that because there weren\u2019t enough rentals available for the workers in a seasonal occupation like skiing for people to have places to stay. So what was happening? They were staying in cars and that sort of thing, which is just appalling\u2014absolutely appalling\u2014and not what we want to achieve. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003EBut one of the actual real highlights of this bill\u2014the real highlights\u2014is the pet bonds. The pet bonds are the real big\u2014they allow us to bring our pets so people can take pets into rentals, a really, really good thing to be able to do. In fact, I can talk about pets. I\u2019ve got a few of my own. I\u2019ve got a dog called Mack and another dog called Bell, and they would love to be able to move into a rental, but they wouldn\u2019t have been allowed to under that Government. It would have been too hard. It would have been too hard. But, now, under this Minister, we\u2019re going to be able to bring them into a rental, and there\u2019s good terms around it. It\u2019s just what we require, right, and it makes for a much better outlook. It shows that we care about animals, on this side of the House. Believe it or not, we actually care.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229634e377-7e76-4353-9662-fb444eb2ec9d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f55287444df4949930c6f18a84c1320\u0022\u003ECarl Bates\u003C/span\u003E: And people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0c11be301004e58a465f9ec30b3c45b\u0022\u003EGRANT McCALLUM\u003C/span\u003E: And we care about the people\u2014that\u2019s correct. That\u2019s right. Also, the other side of the House gets so very righteous about the fact that the State is the only one that can look after them, and you look at what they did to the market. What did they do to the rental market in New Zealand? I\u2019ll tell you what they did. They drove up the price of renting a house by 170 bucks a week. How does that help anybody? That is a disgrace. You should hang your heads in shame. An absolute disgrace. We are focused on actually allowing people to rent their houses, and there seems to be this view that good landlords want to kick out good tenants. Why? If you\u2019ve got a good tenant, why would you want to kick them out? Landlords are running a business. If you\u2019ve got a good tenant in there, you want to look after them, which is another good reason for the pet bonds. The good tenants often have pets, and they want to be able to bring their pets into their houses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002244967dc4-6cc7-4567-b8ef-cc3a9b354544\u0022\u003EIt is great to get to the stage where we\u2019re finally going to allow landlords in this country to be given the respect that they deserve, particularly the mum and dad investors. We, on this side of the House, understand who they are, understand how important they are, and understand that they are looking after themselves. They\u2019re not going to rely and look on a Government to look after them; they want to look after themselves, and that\u2019s what we\u2019re about on this side of the House: personal responsibility and actually allowing people to get on and do business in a fair way. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000839\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c285b9e501b04201aa16b6ad88973fc6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E Residential Tenancies Amendment Bill be considered by the Social Services and Community Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022125c65ec07714013b07abeab4f9de570\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022125c65ec07714013b07abeab4f9de570\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is, That the\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EBill referred to the Social Services and Community Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe9a142fb84e4e318c9df20e61cba21d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe9a142fb84e4e318c9df20e61cba21d\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: I declare the House in committee for consideration of the Immigration (Mass Arrivals) Amendment Bill and the M\u0101ori Fisheries Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227909fe186e6f4b6fb399e32b4aab682e\u0022\u003EHouse in Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000846\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228d9757e347c142a39fef8f2fb7ade9ba\u0022\u003EHouse in Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022a3adb5e484fd4bf4948508a003dab05c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a3adb5e484fd4bf4948508a003dab05c\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the House is in committee on the Immigration (Mass Arrivals) Amendment Bill and the M\u0101ori Fisheries Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000847\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fa0cd00b41dd4e3e8328a32097582bab\u0022\u003EImmigration (Mass Arrivals) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000848\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228ba74ee811a24899999279b776da4cf8\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e123c34c40854de0894e285d3c41f27f\u0022\u003EPart 1  Applications for visas and entry permission\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u00221ca7bc343a9b4d759b7df5ae60109697\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000850\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ca7bc343a9b4d759b7df5ae60109697\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: We come first to the Immigration (Mass Arrivals) Amendment Bill, and we begin with the debate on Part 1. Part 1 is the debate on clauses 4 to 6, \u201CApplications for visas and entry permission\u201D. The question is that Part\u00A01 stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022 data-id=\u00228a66d8cee19547d489986d3bb57372bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000851\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ef094bb1-be4f-48b8-bb53-52ce955a1c2d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a66d8cee19547d489986d3bb57372bb\u0022\u003EJAMES MEAGER (National\u2014Rangitata):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order, Madam Chairperson. I seek leave for all provisions to be taken as one question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022c1cfa79527c6436fb96fa2dd6d26516b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000852\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c1cfa79527c6436fb96fa2dd6d26516b\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that intention. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022e4fed864a82e48c9b4e60d00baf6a935\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000853\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e4fed864a82e48c9b4e60d00baf6a935\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Associate Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, and good evening to all members of this committee of the whole House. Representing my colleague and friend Erica Stanford in relation to this bill, I make just brief comment on the nature of Part 1, and, of course, I look forward to the discussion by members who are minded to contribute to the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EThe spirit of Part 1 is very much around providing clarity where it does not currently exist in the Immigration Act. This is reference, of course, to the situation of what we call mass arrivals. So clause 4, then, is going to amend a situation where it\u2019s currently unclear whether members of a mass arrival group would be considered passengers. So just to define \u201Cpassengers\u201D in distinction from a group of mass arrivals, and that would go to, for example, the question of whether there were a rescue at sea and whether those human beings who were involved in that might be regarded as passengers or not. Therefore, the implications for that we\u2019ll see in further clauses, because, of course, the treatment of those within a mass arrival group is deliberately and significantly and importantly\u2014but still humanely\u2014different from those who are making an individual arrival and are able to apply for and, indeed, are required to apply for visas on their own individual terms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EClause 5: again, there is a lack of clarity currently about whether members of a mass arrival group have the ability to apply for entry permission and a visa. They will, under this bill, have the ability to do so under clause 6(1), which is amending section 103(1) of the principal Act by inserting new paragraph (daa). That will oblige them to apply, and then the following clause, which is also amending section 103, will state that, effectively, if they haven\u2019t applied, then, nevertheless, they can be treated as though they had. It would\u00A0be an anomaly to, essentially, privilege a mass arrival group in the event that they\u00A0hadn\u2019t actually applied, and therefore had been denied such permission. So, with that, I welcome our discussion on Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u00226b2fa2e587054c6cb6b6c88b8b305dbe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226b2fa2e587054c6cb6b6c88b8b305dbe\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u00A0acknowledge that this is the first time the Minister\u2019s in the chair on a bill such as this. This is the bill that was started by the previous Labour Government\u2014in fact, this is the Labour Party and the National Party colluding to diminish the rights of asylum seekers. Quite frankly, I\u2019m yet to see the Labour Party come with a critical analysis of this bill and I look forward to their own contributions around the justification for a rights-diminishing bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI was keen, in Part 1, to touch on the \u201Cmass arrivals\u201D definition, because one of the key pieces of feedback that we received from human rights advocates, from people who work directly with refugees and who work with asylum seekers was around the concerns around creating, effectively, two tiers of asylum seekers who have, effectively, different treatment by the system. So you would have the people who would be arriving, say, by plane, and then you would have, in this bill, a categorisation of people who would be arriving by boat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EIt\u2019s difficult to not obviously allude to what\u2019s in Part 2, because Part 1 is about creating that category, but then it\u2019s about how those people get treated once they arrive. So I\u2019m curious to understand, particularly since the Minister in the chair is new to this Government, what level of engagement he has had in this role since taking on the role with human rights advocates around, effectively, this notion that there\u2019s now a kind of two-tier system around how asylum seekers would be treated by the system, and whether he himself has actually engaged with human rights advocates, with people who work with asylum seekers, on this concern that has been raised in the select committee stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ESo that\u2019s my first question. I have other questions around the ability for the system to cope with mass arrivals per the definition used in this bill, but I\u2019m really keen, first and foremost, to hear from the Minister around the level of engagement he\u2019s had with the sector, and particularly concerns around the two-tier categorisation of asylum seekers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276eb96f8faa344f283560c74fc74a06a\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Ricardo Men\u00E9ndez March.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000861\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba1a08ada6ae44e0b4d89b5d8df51f19\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: Righty-o. So I\u2019m looking forward to the Minister taking notes and, again, looking forward to some critical engagement from the Labour Party on this issue, seeing as they raised some concerns. You\u2019re welcome to engage on this bill, so I\u2019ll allow the Minister to take some notes and get ready for his reply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EBut one of the other things that I particularly wanted to unpack was the evidence that he had seen around whether this bill was actually needed, because, obviously, the bill identified in Part 1 the need to create a specific categorisation of people arriving by boat. One of the key debates that has been playing in the media and, actually, that people who work with asylum seekers have raised time and time again has been the issue that, actually, the Government and successive Governments haven\u2019t actually been upfront with the public around the need for this legislation. In fact, this is something that other parties that are now in Government and the National Party in Opposition raised as a key concern, around the need for this legislation in the first place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EOne of the key concerns that has been raised by human rights advocates, by people who work with asylum seekers, from former refugees themselves, was the fact that if there were concerns around a large group of asylum seekers coming in, then one of the key priorities could have been resourcing the judicial system to ensure that they could be processed. Instead, we\u2019re creating this whole other categorisation in Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000864\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ESo I\u2019m also keen to get a sense of the evidence base for this bill, and particularly the evidence base for the need to create a categorisation of mass arrivals and whether this is based on evidence, or, say, for example, fearmongering and dog-whistling. If the Minister does have evidence around this, will he be able to finally, for once\u2014because the previous Government wasn\u2019t able to do that\u2014present the level of evidence around the need for this legislation and the categorisation around mass arrivals? To be honest, this idea that this is simply a tidy-up or closing some loopholes around, for example, people arriving by cruise ship etc., isn\u2019t good enough, because Part 1 isn\u2019t in isolation; we\u2019re seeing this in Part 2 in terms of the rights-diminishing stuff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ESo I haven\u2019t got an answer on the stuff around engagement with the sector. I\u2019m reiterating the need for the public to have confidence that this bill is based on evidence, and particularly the concerns that have been raised by many stakeholders around a two-tier treatment of asylum seekers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u0022be78d60d8eee40879f7a1f8fe8e8fa58\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be78d60d8eee40879f7a1f8fe8e8fa58\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Associate Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I thank the member for his engagement, and, indeed, I know he has been diligently engaged in the legislative process. In terms of my own engagement, I think, in addition to being able to point to the excellent advice that I have received along with other ministerial colleagues in relation to this which reflects their close attention to the legislative process, obviously I\u2019ve made myself aware, in preparation for this exercise, of some of the key arguments in relation to human rights aspects particularly. These are the issues, of course, that have rightly been raised at the select committee process and also, more recently, in a letter from representatives of a number of different civil society groups, many of whom I have great respect for. I cite, for example, the Refugee Alliance, English Language Partners, Asylum Seekers Support Trust, Aotearoa Resettled Community Coalition, and the likes. That\u2019s a letter addressed to Minister Stanford and Associate Minister Costello, but, nevertheless, between that and the reply made by Casey Costello, obviously I\u2019ve taken note of those and some of the arguments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EI acknowledge, for example, the argument that it would be desirable for the situation of a mass arrival group to be monitored by some independent authority, and the letter from Casey Costello did, of course, point out that the Ombudsman already has this role. There is independence in the role of the Ombudsman, being an Officer of Parliament, and therefore constitutionally separate from the Government of the day. That\u2019s a long-recognised and exercised role that that person has and, as I say, does carry out in relation to other situations of detention, if I can just use that word more broadly for a moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000868\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ELikewise, I\u2019ve been engaged, and, importantly, the Government as a whole has been engaged, in other concerns and questions raised by groups of civil society and advocates for those who might be in a mass arrival group situation\u2014for example, around consistency with the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act; also, in relation to international legal obligations; and if I think about particularly\u2014or at least in the starting position\u2014access to legal justice, access to legal advice, access to representation, the ability to have one\u2019s time in court. Of course, there is nothing in this bill that precludes that, and, indeed, it\u2019s the case that with the extended time frames that are being allowed, actually, a quality of representation is more likely to be provided within that four- or seven- or 28-day time frame, as the case may be, because there would be opportunity for proper advice to be given for the judge deciding how to rule in the case of the situation of the mass arrival group. They can do that in the time frame really that is needed and not make a rushed decision that actually might be to the detriment of the mass arrival group.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000869\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo, for all these reasons, I hope the member will agree\u2014whether or not he agrees with the conclusion that I\u2019ve reached and that the Government\u2019s reached on the submissions made by such people\u2014that I have and we have engaged with the substance of the arguments that have been made. I would just point out in relation to what\u2019s characterised as a two-tier system. I mean, admittedly there is a distinction, a discrimination\u2014but not, I would say, in the ugly sense of that word. But it\u2019s a meaningful distinction based on the fact that a mass arrival inevitably would be by sea because it\u2019s not possible physically, in most modes of transportation by air, to have arrived in such a large group after such a long period of time. The fact of a large group and the fact of a long period of time at sea would indicate a particular vulnerability and a particular set of characteristics of a mass arrival group that would make it appropriate for them to be treated as one whole entity\u2014albeit with individual circumstances needing to be taken account of within that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000870\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ELikewise in terms of some of the complex needs that one might have after some weeks at sea. Of course, if they\u2019re arriving in New Zealand, our geographical isolation being what it is, inevitably it would be after quite some time that they\u2019d been away. So the requirement to house them in a way that would be secure\u2014but not in prison-like conditions, I hasten to add\u2014is a characteristic particularly that belongs to mass arrival groups that would not attach naturally to smaller numbers of individual humans arriving by some other method. Madam Chair, if I am able to continue?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000871\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac353bf9821c45eb9caf8674b1e62d82\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes\u2014the Hon Chris Penk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000872\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1cf04337fcd4865b73d6fbd74f9b8f2\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. Then I will simply answer what I think was the final point that the member had made in which he was seeking response, which is around evidence. Of course, it is difficult to provide evidence of the need of something that hasn\u2019t happened. And by the time it\u2019s happened, it\u2019s too late and we can\u2019t be legislating in urgency within in the 28-period that\u2019s now going to be allowed. It\u2019s always unexpected that there would be mass arrivals\u2014it\u2019s not an everyday event\u2014but one doesn\u2019t expect the unexpected, by definition, but, of course, one has to be prepared for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000873\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003ESo, to provide a mechanism whereby, in that worst-case scenario, there is a legal mechanism safely to provide a reasonable process, humane conditions, and sort of a maximum extent of additional time, seems, to us, a sensible precaution. Noting, of course, that within those time frames it\u2019s still the case that the cases would need to be decided as soon as possible, just with extra time should it be needed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022 data-id=\u0022131cc3f5d86c48f7b3b1f94ed1e562df\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000874\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022131cc3f5d86c48f7b3b1f94ed1e562df\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD (Labour\u2014Te Atat\u016B):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair. I\u2019m looking forward to speaking to the amendments in Part 2 of the bill, and we\u2019ll have a few things to say about the content of the Government\u2019s Amendment Paper. I\u2019ll also be bringing to the committee three additional amendments that have been developed in conversation with the former refugee and human rights community over the last few weeks. And the committee will see proposals that that community has made to improve the bill. I\u2019ll be speaking to those in in Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000875\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EBut I did want to say, at this point in the debate, that Labour is supporting this bill, because the prospect of a mass arrival is a low-probability event\u2014probably a very low-probability event\u2014but not a no-probability event. And the experience of a large steel-hold vessel carrying a large number of asylum seekers arriving in Canada and the more recent experience of, again, a large vessel making its way towards New Zealand, that rather spookily disappeared off the radar screen, is enough evidence to suggest that New Zealand could, one day, face a mass-arrival scenario. And it\u2019s in our interests, as a country, and in the interests of asylum seekers who did arrive in that kind of scenario that there is an orderly and humane system in place to deal with them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000876\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003EThere are questions to do with security. There are questions to do with the health of the people who are arriving and, most importantly, that their legal rights are respected, and that due process and legal representation are provided for with enough time and in a way that all of those matters can be dealt with in an orderly way. That\u2019s why we\u2019re supporting this bill. If it wasn\u2019t for the four substantive additional safeguards that are contained in the Minister\u2019s Amendment Paper, we would not be supporting it at the committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000877\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022305f58349bd2435cbb497345d1f79aa9\u0022\u003ERicardo Men\u00E9ndez March\u003C/span\u003E: Your party introduced this bill as it was. Come on! Fuck. You voted for the bill without those amendments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000878\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228cb13017405c44a3b780b3648b45eeba\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not sure\u2014[Interruption] I\u2019m not sure I can ever remember someone who has displayed such incredible self-righteousness as what I have observed in the Chamber this evening from that member. I\u2019m absolutely stunned at the display.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000879\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221c3084990c24faeb9c1e63d79b8c1d7\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Phil Twyford, I don\u2019t think we\u2019ll start making comments to other people of a personal nature like that, but you\u2019re very welcome to carry on your speech about the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000880\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbc37df2-57ae-4536-94ed-a2e39eecd585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efa8fe061a814230be59e5dd3def57e1\u0022\u003EHon PHIL TWYFORD\u003C/span\u003E: So I look forward to the rest of the debate, but I wanted to make it clear that that\u2019s the basis on which we are supporting the bill. Notwithstanding what I\u2019ve said, there is an argument to be had simply about the notion of detaining asylum seekers. We have an obligation under international law to treat asylum seekers, convention refugees, just as humanely as we do quota refugees who come here through the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees. Their rights are clearly set down under international law that we are bound by. And what\u2019s important about this debate is, I think, for us to do some soul searching about the safeguards and the protections that are built into this legislation to ensure that people who are being deprived of their liberty suffer the minimum necessary detention, that the conditions of treatment and detention are protected and independently monitored, and that all of the administration of the system that\u2019s been put in place is subject to appropriate judicial controls. And those are the matters that I look forward to debating in Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022 data-id=\u0022e14b6c39a1b14a20adf6339f7ec55d8c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000881\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e14b6c39a1b14a20adf6339f7ec55d8c\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH (Green):\u003C/span\u003E It\u2019s interesting what the member Phil Twyford, just now, from Labour calls self-righteousness. It\u2019s actually the views of human rights advocates, asylum seeker - led organisations, and, literally, I would challenge any member in this House who is supporting this bill to name a single human rights advocate or organisation that works for refugees or asylum seekers who is supporting this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000882\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003ELet\u2019s make it clear: the bill as introduced was introduced by Labour, so Labour are now saying that they no longer support it without the amendments is them realising that there\u2019s no single organisation that works directly with refugees and asylum seekers who submitted on it who say that this is a good bill. In fact, a large number of organisations who work with the people impacted by this bill question the need for this bill. So my question to the Minister, because I thought this was about not just platitudes but about actually questioning the Minister, is: can the Minister name specific groups that he may have engaged with since taking on the role, because I do make the distinction\u2014right? We had the select committee stage under the previous Government, and I\u2019m keen to understand the change in tone and position from the National Party as it indicates to me that perhaps there was some engagement or further information. So was there a specific stakeholder organisation\u2014a human rights advocate group that works directly with people\u2014who told him about the need for this bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000883\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EThe second part was that I want to pick up on the comments. The Minister in the chair talked about and acknowledged how this bill does create discrimination\u2014I mean, he used the word\u2014and I\u2019m curious to know whether that discrimination is rights-diminishing, because, ultimately, we are creating completely different ways of processing asylum-seeking claims. One of them includes, basically, detention and has a quite a specific set of rules, effectively, about how that\u2019s going to be carried out. So is he sure that, for example, that level of discrimination that comes from creating a whole definition around mass arrivals doesn\u2019t risk actually compounding harm for the people who he himself actually recognised come from experiences that none of us could have ever imagined\u2014or most of us, I think, would never imagine? We\u2019ve certainly had former members of Parliament who have gone through those experiences, some of whom were actually from the Labour Party, who I could see were quite upset at the time when the bill was introduced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000884\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EBut I would say that it\u2019s important for the Minister to make it clear as to whether he thinks that additional discrimination for people who are fleeing genocide or who are fleeing some of the most harrowing things one could ever imagine are actually rights-enhancing or rights-diminishing, because I know that he talked about the ability for the system to process asylum-seeking claims. I do have some questions in Part 2 more specifically to that. But, ultimately, the premise of this bill is about the chicken and egg situation: is it about needing to create a whole mass arrivals definition, or is it about resourcing, for example, the community organisations and the judiciary, who are the ones who can ensure that those asylum-seeking claims can be processed quickly?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000885\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f44431ef-b505-4e94-9f57-a60b0a569bf7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cff949fd0de42c19a5f04d0b8313701\u0022\u003EHon Shane Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Security\u2014safety.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3f111daaad146148146ab1e610e2879\u0022\u003ERICARDO MEN\u00C9NDEZ MARCH\u003C/span\u003E: And I hear Shane Jones doing his usual kind of parrot-style\u2014he just yelled across the Chamber about safety. But the Minister himself couldn\u2019t actually elucidate specific risks or evidence that created the need for this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000887\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI think it\u2019s not good enough to just have the Minister say, \u201CLook, at one point maybe we will have a mass arrival in the future.\u201D, and, if so, if there\u2019s no specific date line or no specific time that we think those are going to increase, there\u2019s therefore plenty of time to actually do all the other things that the Casey report talked about and that human rights organisations talked about. So if there is no imminent great risk of mass arrivals coming, then the question is: why didn\u2019t the Government can this rights-diminishing bill and do the right thing by working directly with the organisations who work with asylum seekers and who work with former refugees?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219ed20db-5d6c-4464-9327-6cdd072bb4fe\u0022\u003EI would encourage the members from the Government who are just doing seal clapping to take this bill seriously, because it affects the people in our communities who have actually lived through the absolute worst, most harrowing experiences in their lives. I look forward to the Minister actually presenting us with a bit more robust back-up around why this is required and\u2014most importantly\u2014giving us the guarantee that the discrimination he mentioned won\u2019t be rights-diminishing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022 data-id=\u002215b3efc755b349309dca8e691d2a2d00\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002215b3efc755b349309dca8e691d2a2d00\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS PENK (Associate Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I believe, on the subject of engagement, I\u2019ve referred to the discussion that\u2019s been had effectively through the excellent select committee work in relation to this. And, as I say, Government Ministers, including the Minister of Immigration herself and both associates, including me, have been made well aware of the views of certain groups that have written in, and, as I say, in the case of our colleague and friend Associate Minister Costello, have responded to that. I\u2019ve given an example of some of those discussion points back and forth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000890\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EIn terms of whether the distinction between a mass arrival group and individual arrivals is reasonable, I believe it is. I believe that it\u2019s proportionate, but also more particularly that it recognises the particular complexity of the situation that mass arrival groups face. Again, that goes to numbers, it goes to length of time prior to arrival. There may be health conditions associated with those periods of time spent at sea and so forth. Of course, whether the measures and the particular time frames, for example, are proportionate and reasonable is the subject for debate under Part 2, because, of course, that\u2019s where those provisions are contained.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000891\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EAnd in relation to whether human rights are diminished by the measures of the bill, of course in any human rights discussion it\u2019s necessary to consider not only proportionality, which I\u2019ve already referenced, but the balancing. So we\u2019re balancing, yes, issues of security, geopolitical matters that may feed into the likelihood of such situations arising. Of course, it\u2019s impossible without a crystal ball to know exactly what that may entail at what particular time, but suffice to say the issues arising in the South China Sea and the\u00A0Pacific Ocean\u2014the Asia-Pacific region\u2014tend to be getting more complex, not less. I simply make the point that I don\u2019t know when my house might burn down by fire, but I\u2019m going to get insurance anyway. I think that we need not to be able to predict with exactitude the nature or timing of an event to be wanting to prepare ourselves against the possibility of it happening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000892\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f96cdca1-b63c-4602-b2b3-276f58ebb518\u0022\u003EOf course, though, we talk about rights in relation to human rights but also responsibilities too, and so the responsibility of the State to ensure that we have humane and appropriate processes must be seen as a relevant consideration, alongside the rights that, of course, all humans enjoy, regardless of immigration or refugee status. And I think this bill strikes a good balance on that, and I think in Part 2 we\u2019ll be able to have a good conversation about exactly where those lines are drawn.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u0022078edc5ab23841ceab232a6404330a39\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022078edc5ab23841ceab232a6404330a39\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Members, the time has come for me to report progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000894\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EProgress to be reported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000895\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000896\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221a94f8c0a1234558914a70d4cacbda70\u0022\u003EReport of Committee of the Whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000898\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cd76232003294b99a92c5ebb670f7bb9\u0022\u003EReport of Committee of the Whole House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022 data-id=\u002299bdcbe808a3435ea842209cae19f787\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000897\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002299bdcbe808a3435ea842209cae19f787\u0022\u003ECHAIRPERSON (Barbara Kuriger)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, the committee has considered the Immigration (Mass Arrivals) Amendment Bill and reports progress. The committee has also considered the M\u0101ori Fisheries Amendment Bill and reports no progress. I move, That the report be adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000899\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000900\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002261720d2e-5b1d-4742-b4f0-30424316ccc1\u0022\u003EReport adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022 data-id=\u002246ea040153914cd8b843f9a07433fee6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000901\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002246ea040153914cd8b843f9a07433fee6\u0022\u003EASSISTANT SPEAKER (Greg O\u2019Connor)\u003C/span\u003E: Those bills are set down for further consideration in committee next sitting day. Members, the House is adjourned until 2 p.m. tomorrow. Have a good evening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000902\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 10 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id202405213940a3542f174e31b7f21839df712a4e000903\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002202e74c40-9529-4e15-adc2-c032eadc2205\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"